Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on February 17, 2014, 11:50:03 AM
Title: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: John on February 17, 2014, 11:50:03 AM
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Howe-Hogan speaking on Radio 5 mentions murder in relation to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Was this a Freudian slip or a badly worded response to a caller's question live on air?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 22, 2014, 08:00:21 PM
Strange, Hulk Hogan said it could be murder.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Howe-Hogan speaking on Radio 5
First broadcast: Thursday 20 February 2014
Transcript
By Nigel Moore
Nicky Campbell: Errm... Adeal in London... no, I tell you what, we'll go to Christine in Cardiff. Brief points please because there's only eight minutes left, so make your questions as... as, errr... well edited as you can. Hi, Christine.
Christine: (phone in) Good morning. Good morning, Sir Bernard.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Good morning, Christine.
Christine: I'd like to ask you, errr... on the progress of Operation Grange.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Right, we have a lots of Op... Operations, so you're going to have...
Nicky Campbell: Operation Grange, just...?
Christine: Operation Grange.
Nicky Campbell: Which is?
Christine: It's the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Ahh, right, thank you for helping...
Christine: That's okay.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: ...but we do have a lot of Operations in London, so I'm sorry if I didn't recognise it immediately.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Yes. [spoken in acknowledgment of the reference to the 'Portuguese police' and before Nicky Campbell has finished his sentence]
Christine: Yes... no [seemingly spoken in echo of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe's 'yes' but then realises it could be misconstrued and makes an attempt to change it to 'no'. See her next comment]
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Errm... I'm not going to respond to Nicky's comments.
Christine: (in background) Did they Nicky?
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: I'm just going to... Let me just... let me just help. Where we are at the moment: We've sent three letters of request for international assistance to the Portuguese, errr... Judiciary, because that's the way their system works, and also with the police - we are working closely with them. Errm... obviously the Portuguese police have got a line of inquiry which is different to the Metropolitan Police's but we're working together to try and resolve that. Errm... we're trying our best to keep the family informed and I think in the middle of all this, quite often their torment gets lost. Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them.
Nicky Campbell: Awful.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Either way, errr... they've got that terrible uncertainty, so we're all trying our best to help resolve that. We...
Nicky Campbell: Do you have suspects?
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Errr... yes, we've said very clearly that, you know, we've got lines of inquiry that, errm... are different to the Portuguese police and we're working with them to try and resolve that and I'm only going to... you know, that comment you made at the beginning, about, you know, what they did or didn't do. We've got to work together on this and I don't mean that as a naïve thing; I just think, generally. We've generally got to work together. We can't police Portugal, they can't do everything over here; we must work together. So, we're insist... you know, we really can work in genuine partnership on this. We're making some progress, errm... let's see how it comes over the next few months.
Nicky Campbell: If you'd been involved at the outset, do you think we might have got further with this investigation?
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Errr... I think that's a bit unf... that would be unfair. I mean there's been inquiries in, errm... in the UK, where we know that the police could have done better. I think to be too judgmental in these cases is... is wrong and I wasn't there and I'm not going to judge them. The main thing we're all committed to is trying to find that little girl.
Nicky Campbell: And you have lines of inquiry, you have 'suspects' lines of inquiry; you have names.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: That's right.
Nicky Campbell: Errm... and I appreciate how you can't, at this stage, go any further, errr... and have you spoken to those people?
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Errm... I'm not going to go any further, really. Because that's what you just said you didn't want!
Nicky Campbell: I'm sure when you were interviewing people in that... in that little room you'd try and sneak one in like that, Sir Bernard. I bet you have in your time.
Adeal's in London...
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: jassi on February 22, 2014, 08:10:09 PM
He was talking in general, about the parents of missing children.. not about McCanns..
Doesn't seem that way to me.
'Where we are at the moment: We've sent three letters of request for international assistance to the Portuguese, errr... Judiciary, because that's the way their system works, and also with the police - we are working closely with them. Errm... obviously the Portuguese police have got a line of inquiry which is different to the Metropolitan Police's but we're working together to try and resolve that. Errm... we're trying our best to keep the family informed and I think in the middle of all this, quite often their torment gets lost. Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them.'
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 22, 2014, 10:33:09 PM
'Where we are at the moment: We've sent three letters of request for international assistance to the Portuguese, errr... Judiciary, because that's the way their system works, and also with the police - we are working closely with them. Errm... obviously the Portuguese police have got a line of inquiry which is different to the Metropolitan Police's but we're working together to try and resolve that. Errm... we're trying our best to keep the family informed and I think in the middle of all this, quite often their torment gets lost. Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them.'
It was a remarkable statement for him to have made, I agree
He presented an 'either, or' position ... either Madeleine was murdered ... OR she was abducted
Most unexpected
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 22, 2014, 10:41:38 PM
It was a remarkable statement for him to have made, I agree
He presented an 'either, or' postion ... either Madeleine was murdered ... OR she was abducted
Most unexpected
I find this bit a little curious also..
"Errr... yes, we've said very clearly that, you know, we've got lines of inquiry that, errm... are different to the Portuguese police and we're working with them to try and resolve that and I'm only going to... you know, that comment you made at the beginning, about, you know, what they did or didn't do. We've got to work together on this and I don't mean that as a naïve thing; I just think, generally. We've generally got to work together. We can't police Portugal, they can't do everything over here; we must work together. So, we're insist... you know, we really can work in genuine partnership on this. We're making some progress, errm... let's see how it comes over the next few months."
Just what would the Portuguese police need to be doing over here?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 22, 2014, 10:43:12 PM
It was a remarkable statement for him to have made, I agree
He presented an 'either, or' position ... either Madeleine was murdered ... OR she was abducted
Most unexpected
His choice of words were unfortunate as he did seem to suggest she was either murdered OR abducted (by someone else) but not both! Ie by the same person!!
Its very possible he just wasnt thinking whilst he spoke. In fact seeing as the words Operation Grange didnt seem to register with him at inititally in that radio show Id say he hasnt taken much interest in the case! Im sure he is an extremely busy man in a job no one would want!
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 22, 2014, 10:46:57 PM
"Errr... yes, we've said very clearly that, you know, we've got lines of inquiry that, errm... are different to the Portuguese police and we're working with them to try and resolve that and I'm only going to... you know, that comment you made at the beginning, about, you know, what they did or didn't do. We've got to work together on this and I don't mean that as a naïve thing; I just think, generally. We've generally got to work together. We can't police Portugal, they can't do everything over here; we must work together. So, we're insist... you know, we really can work in genuine partnership on this. We're making some progress, errm... let's see how it comes over the next few months."
Just what would the Portuguese police need to be doing over here?
I wondered too. Join the impossible to police Portugal to the supposed "Portuguese" ways in matter of letters of request, and it sounds things don't go swimmingly.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 22, 2014, 10:52:22 PM
"Errr... yes, we've said very clearly that, you know, we've got lines of inquiry that, errm... are different to the Portuguese police and we're working with them to try and resolve that and I'm only going to... you know, that comment you made at the beginning, about, you know, what they did or didn't do. We've got to work together on this and I don't mean that as a naïve thing; I just think, generally. We've generally got to work together. We can't police Portugal, they can't do everything over here; we must work together. So, we're insist... you know, we really can work in genuine partnership on this. We're making some progress, errm... let's see how it comes over the next few months."
Just what would the Portuguese police need to be doing over here?
I don't know
Unless British 'suspects' have been identified ( not something that has been intimated by any of the parties involved ) then I suppose it might refer to questioning the McCanns and their friends
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: drummer on February 22, 2014, 10:52:48 PM
Can nothing be read as it is?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Lyall on February 22, 2014, 10:55:52 PM
Unless British 'suspects' have been identified ( not something that has been intimated by any of the parties involved ) then I suppose it might refer to questioning the McCanns and their friends
It has I think been said that of these three 'burglars' one is Portuguese, so the other two may be British? Who knows.
(assuming these phantoms exist that is)
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 22, 2014, 10:57:13 PM
His choice of words were unfortunate as he did seem to suggest she was either murdered OR abducted (by someone else) but not both! Ie by the same person!!
Its very possible he just wasnt thinking whilst he spoke. In fact seeing as the words Operation Grange didnt seem to register with him at inititally in that radio show Id say he hasnt taken much interest in the case! Im sure he is an extremely busy man in a job no one would want!
We could say BHH is a total dolt slipping the M word out....
Of we could follow my theory, which basically runs thusly -
Police at that high level are trained in the use of language.
They weigh every word they utter. It would have been easy for him to say "no comment" but he didn't.
No, he used the word Murder which I believe is the FIRST TIME this word has cropped up in this investigation.
He also opined that only abduction would be "sad".
Murder apparently is NOT sad.
Why not?
Do you think he's speaking to someone in particular? The perps perhaps, who will be hanging off every word uttered?
Or just being stupid impulsive and careless throwing around the suggestion Madeleine was murdered?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 22, 2014, 10:57:39 PM
Unless British 'suspects' have been identified ( not something that has been intimated by any of the parties involved ) then I suppose it might refer to questioning the McCanns and their friends
14th October 2013
Investigators said they’ve identified 41 people of interest, including 15 U.K. nationals.
But that is exactly what we are doing ... reading Hogan Howe's words at face value
It may be that he did not 'mean' it to come out as it did, but it IS what he said ... either Madeleine was murdered, or she was abducted
Furthermore if she was murdered, that proves the dogs were right.
Presumably also right when they found cadaver in the Renault.
And why wouldn't murder be "sad"?
Only one possible explanation...at least abduction means she's possibly alive.
So according to BHH, the possibility of a murdered Madeleine not only exists, he also doesn't find that possibility as sad as her possibly being alive.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 22, 2014, 11:10:22 PM
As I said in my previous post I think he wasnt thinking but freudian slips happen
regarding the "sadly" issue, I think he was just speaking fast and forgot to say the word before the OR abducted
Just ike Andy Redwood said, "or sadly she is dead"
I cant read anything into that personally
I agree that words likely failed Commissioner Howe. Does it only betray his (certainly) tense mental activities ? Or rather that Operation Grange is a pain in the neck for SY ?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: drummer on February 22, 2014, 11:11:42 PM
I think I believe IMO Maybe What if If Could Would How When Where When etc etc etc Let the police decide cos a bunch of internet detectives have not discovered anything apart from how daft they appear presuming until the next piece of news shows up. Be they pro or anti.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 22, 2014, 11:13:57 PM
I agree that words likely failed Commissioner Howe. Does it only betray his (certainly) tense mental activities ? Or rather that Operation Grange is a pain in the neck for SY ?
he did want to know if its going to be wrapped up soon, a year ago (I have the newspaper link somewhere) he's got more serious priorities than pr exercises I suppose
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 22, 2014, 11:16:55 PM
I agree that words likely failed Commissioner Howe. Does it only betray his (certainly) tense mental activities ? Or rather that Operation Grange is a pain in the neck for SY ?
You want to discuss how many hours of media training a Police Commissioner gets?
It wasn't a Freudian slip.
He was speaking to the perps - we know you murdered her.
This is getting very ugly.
I for one would like to know what Gerry meant when he told us on Crime watch that she was born "nearly perfect".
All parents think their newborn IS. perfect so what on earth does "nearly" mean?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 22, 2014, 11:19:42 PM
M.P Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe appears to have said.
"We're trying our best to keep the family informed and I think in the middle of all this, quite often their torment gets lost. Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them." I can't work out what he can possibly mean as there seem to be redundant words in there. The Robert Browning quote or the Bob Dylan quote fit in well here I think. I'll do the Dylan one " you make it mean whatever you want it to mean I was just looking for a word to rhyme with coat"
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 22, 2014, 11:25:40 PM
You want to discuss how many hours of media training a Police Commissioner gets?
It wasn't a Freudian slip.
He was speaking to the perps - we know you murdered her.
This is getting very ugly.
I for one would like to know what Gerry meant when he told us on Crime watch that she was born "nearly perfect".
All parents think their newborn IS. perfect so what on earth does "nearly" mean?
Well thats interesting too, thanks
Eta the first part about police training
Not gerry sayng she was almost perfect, which is rather cringeworthy I must agree though, sayng that for a fleck in the eye! He should have shut his mouth instead and thanked the gods he managed to get a "perfect" child through all that IVF! In the first place
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 22, 2014, 11:26:25 PM
he did want to know if its going to be wrapped up soon, a year ago (I have the newspaper link somewhere) he's got more serious priorities than pr exercises I suppose
But he knows that the issue isn't crucial but very sensitive.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Lyall on February 22, 2014, 11:27:14 PM
I agree that words likely failed Commissioner Howe. Does it only betray his (certainly) tense mental activities ? Or rather that Operation Grange is a pain in the neck for SY ?
It might be but it's good for their allies the newspaper editors.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 22, 2014, 11:35:48 PM
But he knows that the issue isn't crucial but very sensitive.
Sensitive for who? When is a chld missing case "sensitive"
and why?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 22, 2014, 11:39:43 PM
My BFFs dad was deputy chief commissioner of Police.
He is long retired now but to this day will not discuss his work.
There is a famous Bamber type crime which divides the nation to this day. 30 years ago he let one comment slip - the arrestee was "guilty as sin" even though his conviction was later overturned.
He sat in an office most of the day dealing with media.
There is no way an officer of Commissioner rank has a "Freudian slip". He is using the media to speak directly to the perps.
He used the word murder for the first time in this case. That's because that is what they suspect.
Chilling.
Also returns credibility to Eddie.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 22, 2014, 11:42:00 PM
Sensitive for who? When is a chld missing case "sensitive"
and why?
This case, after 7 years, became more a question of understanding what happened than finding a now young girl. It lost the importance it had 3 years back when DCI Redwood started the review with a flower in his hair. It's more now SY's reputation that is at stake.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: VIXTE on February 22, 2014, 11:43:27 PM
My BFFs dad was deputy chief commissioner of Police.
He is long retired now but to this day will not discuss his work.
There is a famous Bamber type crime which divides the nation to this day. 30 years ago he let one comment slip - the arrestee was "guilty as sin" even though his conviction was later overturned.
He sat in an office most of the day dealing with media.
There is no way an officer of Commissioner rank has a "Freudian slip". He is using the media to speak directly to the perps.
He used the word murder for the first time in this case. That's because that is what they suspect.
Chilling.
Also returns credibility to Eddie.
Eddie is as credible as a failed litmus paper..
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 22, 2014, 11:44:28 PM
My BFFs dad was deputy chief commissioner of Police.
He is long retired now but to this day will not discuss his work.
There is a famous Bamber type crime which divides the nation to this day. 30 years ago he let one comment slip - the arrestee was "guilty as sin" even though his conviction was later overturned.
He sat in an office most of the day dealing with media.
There is no way an officer of Commissioner rank has a "Freudian slip". He is using the media to speak directly to the perps.
He used the word murder for the first time in this case. That's because that is what they suspect.
Chilling.
Also returns credibility to Eddie.
Interesting, what was the case?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 22, 2014, 11:47:41 PM
This case, after 7 years, became more a question of understanding what happened than finding a now young girl. It lost the importance it had 3 years back when DCI Redwood started the review with a flower in his hair. It's more now SY's reputation that is at stake.
Mccanns David Cameron Rebekah Brookes have alot to answer for here too
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 22, 2014, 11:51:21 PM
... He used the word murder for the first time in this case. That's because that is what they suspect.
Chilling.
Also returns credibility to Eddie.
I think you may be right ... I don't recall anyone using the word 'murder' before ( not even within the context of an 'adbuction' ... let alone as an alternative theory to abduction )
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 22, 2014, 11:53:54 PM
I think you may be right ... I don't recall anyone using the word 'murder' before ( not even within the context of an 'adbuction' ... let alone as an alternative theory to abduction )
Precisely.
BHHs "Freudian slip" was no such thing...
They are investigating this as a MURDER.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 23, 2014, 12:10:27 AM
I think you may be right ... I don't recall anyone using the word 'murder' before ( not even within the context of an 'adbuction' ... let alone as an alternative theory to abduction )
If Madeleine died in the apartment then it wasn't covered up for a unexpected tragic accidental death. Incriminating factors had to be involved to go to those extreme lengths IMO but murder is not the kind of thing you go shouting about on forums but it would explain a cover up and why Madeleine could never be found.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 23, 2014, 12:18:21 AM
If Madeleine died in the apartment then it wasn't covered up for a unexpected tragic accidental death. Incriminating factors had to be involved to go to those extreme lengths IMO but murder is not the kind of thing you go shouting about on forums but it would explain a cover up and why Madeleine could never be found.
"Shouting about on forums"?
What are we here for?
BHH used that word. This is EXTREMELY significant.
Stop trying to censor the discussion.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Lyall on February 23, 2014, 12:21:42 AM
BHH used that word. This is EXTREMELY significant.
Stop trying to censor the discussion.
Nah, he just let made a slip and said what most people think when children disappeared so long ago - especially policemen who tragically have seen it all before.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 23, 2014, 12:24:19 AM
Nah, he just let made a slip and said what most people think when children disappeared so long ago - especially policemen who tragically have seen it all before.
This is true but its anathema to think that in this case
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 23, 2014, 12:26:01 AM
BHH used that word. This is EXTREMELY significant.
Stop trying to censor the discussion.
I do like your directness Silkywhiskers
There is generally a palpable sense of trepidation in most discussions about this case ... almost certainly as a consequence of the threatening air that pervades it
It's refreshing to read your posts because you appear quite unintimidated
This forum should suit you well .... our Admin don't take kindly to threats and intimidation either
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 23, 2014, 12:40:04 AM
There are other options to murder. I remain to be convinced that Sir Bernard wasn't just lobbed a curved ball by Christine from Cardiff that he had a problem fielding; he didn't even know what Operation Grange was. Bearing in mind he wasn't on the programme specifically to answer questions on Grange and in his position wouldn't know the detail of all MPS cases (if he did I would worry). Being frank, as I have may have said elsewhere, on a scale of 1 to 10 in importance to the MPS this case remains on the bump stop. IMO.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 23, 2014, 12:40:56 AM
Nah, he just let made a slip and said what most people think when children disappeared so long ago - especially policemen who tragically have seen it all before.
You have to reckon he didn't say "manslaughter" though.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 23, 2014, 12:42:34 AM
There are other options to murder. I remain to be convinced that Sir Bernard wasn't just lobbed a curved ball by Christine from Cardiff that he had a problem fielding; he didn't even know what Operation Grange was. Bearing in mind he wasn't on the programme specifically to answer questions on Grange and in his position wouldn't know the detail of all MPS cases (if he did I would worry). Being frank, as I have may have said elsewhere, on a scale of 1 to 10 in importance to the MPS this case remains on the bump stop. IMO.
No, Estuarine, he couldn't remember how Operation Grange was called.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 23, 2014, 12:51:04 AM
If Madeleine died in the apartment then it wasn't covered up for a unexpected tragic accidental death. Incriminating factors had to be involved to go to those extreme lengths IMO but murder is not the kind of thing you go shouting about on forums but it would explain a cover up and why Madeleine could never be found.
Only murder by stranger, but why ?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 23, 2014, 01:06:06 AM
I didn't say it was a stranger. If Madeleine died in 5A it was 6.40 to 7pm so if it was murder by being struck or sedatives and fall from sofa then it happened at the routine change. Incriminating factors had to be involved at that time for a cover up and no body found.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 07:46:21 PM
It was a remarkable statement for him to have made, I agree
He presented an 'either, or' position ... either Madeleine was murdered ... OR she was abducted
Most unexpected
If it was a remarkable and unexpected statement, it was so in its lack of preparedness and clarity. He couldn't even remember what 'Operation Grange' was.
The 'either / or ' position as he frames it is completely illogical, and therefore there's no way he could have meant it. (Murder and abduction are not mutually exclusive, and therefore not 'either/ or's or, necessarily, separate hypotheses in this case.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: jassi on February 23, 2014, 07:49:15 PM
Perhaps 'Hulk' isn't quite a s clever as he thinks he is - very embarrassing not to remember what Operation Grange is.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 07:55:39 PM
Why a Freudian slip ?- we all know that SY realise that Madeleine may be dead - and if so she will have been murdered by her abductor. If you're hoping that he meant by the McCanns - then I think you will be very disappointed.
IMO This is just another example of picking over ever word - hoping to turn what was actually said into what some people wish had been said.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 23, 2014, 08:19:03 PM
Why a Freudian slip ?- we all know that SY realise that Madeleine may be dead - and if so she will have been murdered by her abductor. If you're hoping that he meant by the McCanns - then I think you will be very disappointed.
IMO This is just another example of picking over ever word - hoping to turn what was actually said into what some people wish had been said.
Stop dreaming, Benice, nobody wishes anything you phantasm.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 08:19:44 PM
Why a Freudian slip ?- we all know that SY realise that Madeleine may be dead - and if so she will have been murdered by her abductor. If you're hoping that he meant by the McCanns - then I think you will be very disappointed.
IMO This is just another example of picking over ever word - hoping to turn what was actually said into what some people wish had been said.
As far as I understood the comments, unrehearsed as they appeared to be, he certainly was not saying or implying that the McCanns were the murderers. He was speaking of how terrible the two scenarios he mentioned were for the parents.
Not much doubt about it.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Eleanor on February 23, 2014, 08:23:45 PM
As far as I understood the comments, unrehearsed as they appeared to be, he certainly was not saying or implying that the McCanns were the murderers. He was speaking of how terrible the two scenarios he mentioned were for the parents.
Not much doubt about it.
Of course that is what he meant. And Benice is correct. Some people can read anything they like into anything.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2014, 08:25:58 PM
Why a Freudian slip ?- we all know that SY realise that Madeleine may be dead - and if so she will have been murdered by her abductor. If you're hoping that he meant by the McCanns - then I think you will be very disappointed.
IMO This is just another example of picking over ever word - hoping to turn what was actually said into what some people wish had been said.
No, he was quite clear with the OR bit.
He said it three times just to be sure.
" Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them."
There is a cleary a difference here between the murdered & stolen part, with murder taking first place in hulks thoughts on the case.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 08:31:54 PM
Are you suggesting that all murder victims are also abducted?
No, I am suggesting that in drawing a distinction between murder and abduction, the commissioner was not referring to the parents as murderers vs an abduction scenario.
He was pointing to two possible scenarios, one in which Madeleine has been murdered and another in which she is being kept alive (both of which, in the circumstances, would involve an abductor)
He framed his statement in a very clumsy and contradictory way - implying that murder and abduction could be mutually exclusive - but we know what he meant.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 23, 2014, 08:41:17 PM
" Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them."
There is a cleary a difference here between the murdered & stolen part, with murder taking first place in hulks thoughts on the case.
Yes - people do that when they are in conversation. They are rarely as perfectly concise and correct in their speech as they would be if they were writing the same thing down. All perfectly normal IMO.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 23, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
It seems because suspicion has turned away from the McCanns there is a desperate grasping at straws to try to find any words that potentially incriminates them
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 08:46:04 PM
He does make a distinction between a murderer and an abductor though, that much is clear IMO and especially by adding the words "by someone else"
Indeed, the someone else was afixed to the abductor & not to murderer, it leaves us to wonder just who Hogan had in mind as the murderer, clearly someone, but not someone else.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 08:49:47 PM
It seems because suspicion has turned away from the McCanns there is a desperate grasping at straws to try to find any words that potentially incriminates them
It seems so.
Just does not add up that SY and the British establishment would know of information incriminating the McCanns and could be in a cover-up to protect them.
Folderol.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 23, 2014, 08:50:46 PM
'Have they lost a child or, errr... by being murdered or... sadly... or have they lost a child by someone else stealing them.
Nicky Campbell: Awful.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe: Either way, errr... they've got that terrible uncertainty, so we're all trying our best to help resolve that. We...
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 08:52:43 PM
This is Britains top cop apparently, are we suppsed to believe English is his second language.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Eleanor on February 23, 2014, 08:57:54 PM
This is ridiculous. Just when are people going to stop hoping that The McCanns are about to be arrested. They aren't And if Scotland Yard wanted to arrest The McCanns they wouldn't need to be running backwards and forwards to Portugal with Rogatory Letters.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 08:58:12 PM
Who would have murdered Madeleine, in the circumstances as we understand them, other than an abductor or someone connected with an abductor?
(Given that he does not believe, and is not saying here, that her parents murdered her).
A murder for x y z reason and a removal of the body either from within or without the apartment, no "abduction" here as we use the term and no need for any connection with any "abductor"
And before anyone jumps down my throat, no Im not referring to the parents. Think Im done here with this one.
A murder for x y z reason and a removal of the body either from within or without the apartment, no "abduction" here as we use the term and no need for any connection with any "abductor"
And before anyone jumps down my throat, no Im not referring to the parents. Think Im done here with this one. Cant argue much with that though either, he will know nothing much on the case. Imo
Yes, possible that he meant that she was murdered in the apartment and was removed and disposed of by the murderer - not abduction technically speaking.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 09:06:20 PM
This is ridiculous. Just when are people going to stop hoping that The McCanns are about to be arrested. They aren't And if Scotland Yard wanted to arrest The McCanns they wouldn't need to be running backwards and forwards to Portugal with Rogatory Letters.
I doubt anyone is hoping the Mccanns get arrested if they have done nothing wrong. That is what is ridiculous.
But most people would hope people who have done so, do get arrested, I would have thought.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 09:15:18 PM
You think this word order suggests that SY have some information pointing to her being dead?
SY are investigating with equal resources scenarios where she is either dead or alive. I have the quote somewhere. I doubt they have any concrete info so far though.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 23, 2014, 09:16:47 PM
SY are investigating with equal resources scenarios where she is either dead or alive. I have the quote somewhere. I doubt they have any concrete info so far though.
That is very interesting.
~If you can find the quote in your encyclopedia there it would be very useful..
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 23, 2014, 09:19:31 PM
Haven't ever seen Robert Browning and Bob Dylan in the same sentence before, Estuarine - or am I missing something?
Reading into text something that isn't there: Robert Browning when questioned what he meant "When I wrote it only Robert Browning and God knew what it meant. Now God knows" Bob Dylan " You can make it mean what ever you want it to mean I was just looking for a word to rhyme with coat". I think Sir Bernard was found wanting in his reaction and we shouldn't take too much notice of hidden meanings that probably aren't there.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 23, 2014, 09:26:29 PM
Reading into text something that isn't there: Robert Browning when questioned what he meant "When I wrote it only Robert Browning and God knew what it meant. Now God knows" Bob Dylan " You can make it mean what ever you want it to mean I was just looking for a word to rhyme with coat". I think Sir Bernard was found wanting in his reaction and we shouldn't take too much notice of hidden meanings that probably aren't there.
He didn't hide it.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: ferryman on February 23, 2014, 09:27:12 PM
Reading into text something that isn't there: Robert Browning when questioned what he meant "When I wrote it only Robert Browning and God knew what it meant. Now God knows" Bob Dylan " You can make it mean what ever you want it to mean I was just looking for a word to rhyme with coat". I think Sir Bernard was found wanting in his reaction and we shouldn't take too much notice of hidden meanings that probably aren't there.
Thanks for the explanation!
Yes, he was certainly caught off guard, and didn't handle the conversation too well. No cause for alarm however.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 23, 2014, 09:28:48 PM
Reading into text something that isn't there: Robert Browning when questioned what he meant "When I wrote it only Robert Browning and God knew what it meant. Now God knows" Bob Dylan " You can make it mean what ever you want it to mean I was just looking for a word to rhyme with coat". I think Sir Bernard was found wanting in his reaction and we shouldn't take too much notice of hidden meanings that probably aren't there.
8(>(( quotes.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Lyall on February 23, 2014, 09:41:27 PM
The Met boss has the IPCC on his back and may not be there much longer. I think he just forgot the line when asked about Madeleine.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Redblossom on February 23, 2014, 09:46:16 PM
Now the media trained BHH has used the word "murder" for the first time ever.
Is he the most senior officer in Britain? Yes. Is his job largely a figurehead, a political position which requires him to be the Face of SY in public? Yes.
Do police know a lot more about crimes and evidence than we do? Yes.
If BHH tosses off the word murder it is not a slip of the tongue. He's been around the block, had hours of media training.
Murder.......! Not manslaughter or homicide, but Murder.
That tells me that they have evidence of intentional killing.
Ugh.....
He's also the subject of a current IPPC enquiry !!!
It IS significant that the top policeman man in this case used the word 'murder' for the first time ... and even more significant that he presented 'murder' as an alternative to 'abduction' as a possible explanation
I don't understand why we are being cautioned not to 'read to much into what he said'
He SAID it ! ... we didn't imagine it ! ... and it's worth discussing
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 24, 2014, 06:32:19 AM
It IS significant that the top policeman man in this case used the word 'murder' for the first time ... and even more significant that he presented 'murder' as an alternative to 'abduction' as a possible explanation
I don't understand why we are being cautioned not to 'read to much into what he said'
He SAID it ! ... we didn't imagine it ! ... and it's worth discussing
There is no such thing as 'murder as an alternative to abduction'. So there cannot have been any meaning to it.
It's on a par with the Bushism ' I believe that human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully'.
Nothing to discuss.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 24, 2014, 10:23:34 AM
Few abductors keep their victims alive for any length of time.
The earlier thread drift had been murder by the parents which is what I was referring to. Given that murder has to have the element of premeditation I think it highly improbable (but not impossible) that the parents are guilty of murder. Of course abductors kill victims but I don't subscribe to the abduction theory in this case.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Cariad on February 24, 2014, 11:13:58 AM
My opinion, for what it's worth, on the Hogan Howe interview is that he wasn't prepared for the question. He just stuttered out an answer that wasn't well thought out or rehearsed.
If that means his reply contained a Freudian slip or not, I couldn't guess.
D.N.A evidence:
I've spent ages trying to get my head around this and there's no guarantee that I've succeeded yet 8)-))) but I believe that because it was a mixed sample, the 15/19 markers are practically meaningless. Yes, Madeleine cannot be ruled out, but neither could you or I.
I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I (*clears throat* Redblossem, ) will help to clarify.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 24, 2014, 11:21:52 AM
My opinion, for what it's worth, on the Hogan Howe interview is that he wasn't prepared for the question. He just stuttered out an answer that wasn't well thought out or rehearsed.
If that means his reply contained a Freudian slip or not, I couldn't guess.
D.N.A evidence:
I've spent ages trying to get my head around this and there's no guarantee that I've succeeded yet 8)-))) but I believe that because it was a mixed sample, the 15/19 markers are practically meaningless. Yes, Madeleine cannot be ruled out, but neither could you or I.
I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I (*clears throat* Redblossem, ) will help to clarify.
I share your opinion on this Cariad. I think if anyone believes the abduction theory then "murder" has been tacit in this for years.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Estuarine on February 24, 2014, 11:41:46 AM
It may or may not be significant but his statement was proven totally wrong when it came to Plebgate, after wasting a fortune on a meaningless enquiry one man and his dog cared about!
My take on his interview would be that he's not really got his eye on the ball with this one, as evidenced by his failure to recognise the operation name. Let's face it, this is a guy that will spend a large part of his time in meetings discussing covert operations but could very well be spread a little thin because of the various different departments involved that he's required have a degree of knowledge of?
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that Redwoods chief super is most likely in a better position to answer the questions than Sir Bernard but unfortunately we got BHH!
And as result hares are running off in all directions 8)><(
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 24, 2014, 11:48:31 AM
Yes, possible that he meant that she was murdered in the apartment and was removed and disposed of by the murderer - not abduction technically speaking.
It in fact happens. Some predators abuse, strangle and take the body because of the DNA evidence. But they always leave marks of their presence, sometimes insufficient to identify them, but marks all the same.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: John on February 24, 2014, 03:14:37 PM
I have moved the BHH posts to its own thread.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 24, 2014, 04:40:08 PM
It in fact happens. Some predators abuse, strangle and take the body because of the DNA evidence. But they always leave marks of their presence, sometimes insufficient to identify them, but marks all the same.
Perhaps marks were left but destroyed in the ensuing forray.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 24, 2014, 04:43:20 PM
Now the media trained BHH has used the word "murder" for the first time ever.
Is he the most senior officer in Britain? Yes. Is his job largely a figurehead, a political position which requires him to be the Face of SY in public? Yes.
Do police know a lot more about crimes and evidence than we do? Yes.
If BHH tosses off the word murder it is not a slip of the tongue. He's been around the block, had hours of media training.
Murder.......! Not manslaughter or homicide, but Murder.
That tells me that they have evidence of intentional killing.
Ugh.....
He's also the subject of a current IPPC enquiry !!!
The same 'media trained' BHH and most senior police officer in Britain wasn't quick to recognise the term 'Operation Grange', and blustered and fumbled through the rest of the interview.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2014, 04:49:47 PM
The same 'media trained' BHH and most senior police officer in Britain wasn't quick to recognise the term 'Operation Grange', and blustered and fumbled through the rest of the interview.
What was the underlying purpose of the interview anyway? Was it just a PR opportunity that didn't go according to plan?
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 24, 2014, 04:53:21 PM
It seems that this was a snipped from a longer interview about other matters, during which he was caught off guard by a question fielded about the McCann case.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 24, 2014, 05:13:59 PM
It seems that this was a snipped from a longer interview about other matters, during which he was caught off guard by a question fielded about the McCann case.
Are you suggesting that if the Commissioner of police had been prepared for that line of questioning he would have been more 'guarded' in his response ?
You may be right
The intimation of that, of course, would be that the police are considering the possibility that Madeleine was murdered in circumstances that did not involve abduction ... and are not speaking openly about that line of enquiry for some reason or another
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2014, 05:17:21 PM
Are you suggesting that if the Commissioner of police had been prepared for that line of questioning he would have been more 'guarded' in his response ?
You may be right
The intimation of that, of course, would be that the police are considering the possibility that Madeleine was murdered in circumstances that did not involve abduction ... and are not speaking openly about that line of enquiry for some reason or another
That's your interpretation which I think is totally false...ridiculously false IMO..To me he is talking about an abduction where Maddie is still alive or an abduction where she was murdered
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2014, 05:26:03 PM
Are you suggesting that if the Commissioner of police had been prepared for that line of questioning he would have been more 'guarded' in his response ?
You may be right
The intimation of that, of course, would be that the police are considering the possibility that Madeleine was murdered in circumstances that did not involve abduction ... and are not speaking openly about that line of enquiry for some reason or another
That would appear to be the most logical conclusion since the publicised line of inquiry, letting the burglar abductors know that they are on to them, just doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 24, 2014, 05:32:01 PM
That would appear to be the most logical conclusion since the publicised line of inquiry, letting the burglar abductors know that they are on to them, just doesn't make any sense.
?{)(**
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2014, 05:33:57 PM
So when Redwood said that Maddie may be dead...he MUST have been referring to Maddie being murdered...what else could he have meant
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 08, 2014, 08:03:46 PM
The role of the Police Commissioner is to scrutinise the Force on behalf of the Public. They are answerable to the communities they serve.
The ability to choose words wisely is a prerequisite for the job.
How likely is it that BHH went on the radio to talk about the Case of the Decade, and accidentally use the word "murder"?
Also, Freudian slips reveal what the speaker believes.
Two possibilities - he said the word Murder on purpose because that's what he evidence indicates
Or
He said the word Murder accidentally because that's what the evidence indicates.
Either way its significant.
He accidentally said the word Murder because that's where the evidence g
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2014, 10:05:11 PM
If Madeleine died in the apartment then it wasn't covered up for a unexpected tragic accidental death. Incriminating factors had to be involved to go to those extreme lengths IMO but murder is not the kind of thing you go shouting about on forums but it would explain a cover up and why Madeleine could never be found.
Good grief!
Try reading Mark Harrison's report ...
Title: Re: Met Commissioner Sir Hogan-Howe uses the 'murder' word for the first time.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2014, 04:38:35 PM
Now the media trained BHH has used the word "murder" for the first time ever.
Is he the most senior officer in Britain? Yes. Is his job largely a figurehead, a political position which requires him to be the Face of SY in public? Yes.
Do police know a lot more about crimes and evidence than we do? Yes.
If BHH tosses off the word murder it is not a slip of the tongue. He's been around the block, had hours of media training.
Murder.......! Not manslaughter or homicide, but Murder.
That tells me that they have evidence of intentional killing.
Ugh.....
He's also the subject of a current IPPC enquiry !!!
My previous post was intended to be a response to this one.