Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on February 05, 2014, 11:39:41 AM
Title: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on February 05, 2014, 11:39:41 AM
It goes without saying that there are words which sometimes do not translate into English, I know I found this when I first lived in Spain. Naively, at the beginning I thought that all words can be translated but that isn't always the case. The classic example of this in the McCann case is the Portuguese word arguido. There is no equivalent word in English for this entity since such a designation does not exist in the United Kingdom.
The question raised in this thread simply is, can a mistranslated word make such a difference? My own experience is that it certainy can.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 02:42:36 PM
I wonder if they had the files translated, actually. No source, no mention of an accredited firm or individual translators. If they had noted strong misleading errors, wouldn't they have published (at least) corrections on their site ? For the sake of the truth ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Lyall on February 25, 2014, 02:51:36 PM
I wonder if they had the files translated, actually. No source, no mention of an accredited firm or individual translators. If they had noted strong misleading errors, wouldn't they have published (at least) corrections on their site ? For the sake of the truth ?
Good point. It's one of the reasons why I rushed to buy and read their book (seriously): to read something new. Only to find absolutely nothing.
Quite an achievement to publish 392 pages with nothing that surprises on a single one of them.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
Good point. It's one of the reasons why I rushed to buy and read their book (seriously): to read something new. Only to find absolutely nothing.
Quite an achievement to publish 392 pages with nothing that surprises on a single one of them.
I knew only too well from my interviews with the PJ how words and meanings could get lost in translation Spreading doubts, instead of taking advantage of the book to explain what had been lost in translation. A pity, regarding the truth.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2014, 04:00:42 PM
I knew only too well from my interviews with the PJ how words and meanings could get lost in translation Spreading doubts, instead of taking advantage of the book to explain what had been lost in translation. A pity, regarding the truth.
I expect that there was too much to try to explain. This is not a critisism as such because there were always going to be problems with the language barrier. We have witnessed this many times, when different nuances have been attached to the same word, often quite genuinely. There are words in French to which it is almost impossible to give a direct translation, so I wouldn't be surprised if this applies to Portuguese.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Lyall on February 25, 2014, 04:13:09 PM
I expect that there was too much to try to explain. This is not a critisism as such because there were always going to be problems with the language barrier. We have witnessed this many times, when different nuances have been attached to the same word, often quite genuinely. There are words in French to which it is almost impossible to give a direct translation, so I wouldn't be surprised if this applies to Portuguese.
It wasn't that kind of book I've been told many, many times. It was a fundraiser, and primarily about Kate. But there is a problem there: you write a book to fund a search but the book barely mentions the search (very barely). That doesn't look good when you're simultaneously taking legal action against another writer for allegedly hampering the search you yourself chose not to highlight in your own book.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on February 25, 2014, 04:24:29 PM
Your argument that a professional and sworn interpretor would had mistranslated "all shut" into "all open", and twice, in the first statements, (the second, the collective one that says "all shut", is in English), if not bad faith, at least sounds like it ! Careful, Benice, because this kind of forced and unjustified defence is singularly counterproductive.
On the contrary Anne - somewhere in the files - I haven't got time to look now - it says in one statement that the alert to cuddlecat was later confirmed and in another that the alert to cuddlecat was not later confirmed.
What a difference just one word can make.
Another example is in the statement of one of the bar staff who claims he saw people leaving the table to 'control' the children. That is obviously wrong - and the word 'check' should have been used. Control means something completely different.
I am not criticising the interpretators - but I do not believe that no mistakes were ever made - and even the smallest mistake can completely change the meaning of a sentence.
If interpreting from one language to another is as straightforward and simple as you seem to be sayng then this note from an interpretor would surely not exist regarding Matthew Oldfields statement.
QUOTE 905 to 917 Witness statement of Matthew David Oldfield 2007.05.10 918-Consent for mouth swab for Matthew David Oldfield TRANSLATION BY ALBYM
04-Processo 04 Page 905 to 917
[M Oldfield's Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese. I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield. If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 07:21:04 PM
On the contrary Anne - somewhere in the files - I haven't got time to look now - it says in one statement that the alert to cuddlecat was later confirmed and in another that the alert to cuddlecat was not later confirmed.
What a difference just one word can make.
Another example is in the statement of one of the bar staff who claims he saw people leaving the table to 'control' the children. That is obviously wrong - and the word 'check' should have been used. Control means something completely different.
I am not criticising the interpretators - but I do not believe that no mistakes were ever made - and even the smallest mistake can completely change the meaning of a sentence.
If interpreting from one language to another is as straightforward and simple as you seem to be sayng then this note from an interpretor would surely not exist regarding Matthew Oldfields statement.
QUOTE 905 to 917 Witness statement of Matthew David Oldfield 2007.05.10 918-Consent for mouth swab for Matthew David Oldfield TRANSLATION BY ALBYM
04-Processo 04 Page 905 to 917
[M Oldfield's Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese. I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield. If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
A profissional interpretor has oral skills in both languages (translating requires other qualities). I was mentioning two specific and crucial statements that singularly differ from the collective statement called "time line" that followed. The "all closed" first narrative vs the "all shut" one which prevailed and developed into the so-called "whoosh" narrative, almost stable now after some slight variations along time.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on February 25, 2014, 07:54:31 PM
It goes without saying that there are words which sometimes do not translate into English, I know I found this when I first lived in Spain. Naively, at the beginning I thought that all words can be translated but that isn't always the case. The classic example of this in the McCann case is the Portuguese word arguido. There is no equivalent word in English for this entity since such a designation does not exist in the United Kingdom.
The question raised in this thread simply is, can a mistranslated word make such a difference? My own experience is that it certainy can.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2014, 07:56:54 PM
I wonder if they had the files translated, actually. No source, no mention of an accredited firm or individual translators. If they had noted strong misleading errors, wouldn't they have published (at least) corrections on their site ? For the sake of the truth ?
why should they bother...why should they recognise the vile abuse directed at them by people who don't understand half the facts
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2014, 07:58:17 PM
it would be totally ridiculous to claim their were no mistakes in the translations
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 08:22:30 PM
It goes without saying that there are words which sometimes do not translate into English, I know I found this when I first lived in Spain. Naively, at the beginning I thought that all words can be translated but that isn't always the case. The classic example of this in the McCann case is the Portuguese word arguido. There is no equivalent word in English for this entity since such a designation does not exist in the United Kingdom.
The question raised in this thread simply is, can a mistranslated word make such a difference? My own experience is that it certainy can.
No, John, you're mixing up the notion and the word to designate it. The different meanings and connotations of a word occupy a certain "semantic" field. Semantic fields vary from a language to another one, though most of the time they cross partly. There's always a way to translate, having in mind the meaning of the original text but necessarily recreating it. Even in the difficult case of idiomatic expressions, it turns translation real fun !
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 25, 2014, 08:33:56 PM
No, John, you're mixing up the notion and the word to designate it. The different meanings and connotations of a word occupy a certain "semantic" field. Semantic fields vary from a language to another one, though most of the time they cross partly. There's always a way to translate, having in mind the meaning of the original text but necessarily recreating it. Even in the difficult case of idiomatic expressions, it turns translation real fun !
Exactly. One of my friends is Filipina and they have a phrase, "apto sawa" which does not translate directly to English but essentially means "enjoy as much as you can".
I have no problem using that phrase now because I understand what it means.
Also, these transcripts have been gone over and over again by HOW MANY McCann lawyers just desperate to find inaccuracy?
Bilingual lawyers, at that?
Oh btw Anne you are mentioned in Blacksmith today, I feel quite honored to be posting here with you. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 25, 2014, 08:39:55 PM
Exactly. One of my friends is Filipina and they have a phrase, "apto sawa" which does not translate directly to English but essentially means "enjoy as much as you can".
I have no problem using that phrase now because I understand what it means.
Also, these transcripts have been gone over and over again by HOW MANY McCann lawyers just desperate to find inaccuracy?
Bilingual lawyers, at that?
Oh btw Anne you are mentioned in Blacksmith today, I feel quite honored to be posting here with you. 8((()*/
I'll second that.
Just read Blacksmith's latest, and his praise of Anne for her sterling work.
Again, well done Anne.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Estuarine on February 25, 2014, 08:49:33 PM
It was only Anne's stuff on McCannFiles that lured me in here. Anne you owe me many cases of Vinho Verde for luring me into this asylum :)
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Redblossom on February 25, 2014, 08:50:56 PM
It goes without saying that there are words which sometimes do not translate into English, I know I found this when I first lived in Spain. Naively, at the beginning I thought that all words can be translated but that isn't always the case. The classic example of this in the McCann case is the Portuguese word arguido. There is no equivalent word in English for this entity since such a designation does not exist in the United Kingdom.
The question raised in this thread simply is, can a mistranslated word make such a difference? My own experience is that it certainy can.
I dont know if a single word can make that much difference to any meaning in translation unless its ablatant and dramatic error stuck in somewhere. The arguido status isnt a very good example as to all intents and purposes it does mean suspect, way i understand it anyway
The problem here is that some have said a whole sentence with definitive and indisputable words and syntax / context have been tried to be passed off as "mistranslations"....when it is so obvious it was taking he mickey in tryng to do so
One example is from Gerrys first statement here he says he entered via the front door on his 9pm or so check (as it was locked) with his key (as opposed to his second statement when he said he entered via the back door)
Some have tried to say this was a mistranslation,when its impossible it could have been
One excuse being well, they may have got the front and back and or side as its been called door, mixed up, when, no, there is only ONE door you enter with a key and thats the front door
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 11:09:10 PM
Forthed.. is that a word? Any way, me too. It was Anne's work that directed me here. I'm very grateful for it too, I think 8)--))
Apropos of nothing, Schadenfreude is my favourite word without a direct English translation.
Pityjoy ? There's another German one, Sehnsucht that has no equivalent neither in English nor in French but has in Portuguese : saudade, it's a kind of special nostalgia, you can have saudade of saudade..
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 11:48:06 PM
I dont know if a single word can make that much difference to any meaning in translation unless its ablatant and dramatic error stuck in somewhere. The arguido status isnt a very good example as to all intents and purposes it does mean suspect, way i understand it anyway
The problem here is that some have said a whole sentence with definitive and indisputable words and syntax / context have been tried to be passed off as "mistranslations"....when it is so obvious it was taking he mickey in tryng to do so
One example is from Gerrys first statement here he says he entered via the front door on his 9pm or so check (as it was locked) with his key (as opposed to his second statement when he said he entered via the back door)
Some have tried to say this was a mistranslation,when its impossible it could have been
One excuse being well, they may have got the front and back and or side as its been called door, mixed up, when, no, there is only ONE door you enter with a key and thats the front door
Mistranslations originate usually from syntax, sometimes because the original text's syntax is somehow faulty or complex. Lexical errors are rare.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 25, 2014, 11:54:41 PM
It was only Anne's stuff on McCannFiles that lured me in here. Anne you owe me many cases of Vinho Verde for luring me into this asylum :)
?{)(** Thank you all ! I read Blacksmith a bit as I watch a David Lynch film, never able to foresee what next sentence will look like ! If by chance any of you come to Lisbon, let's have some vinho verde on my balcony over the Tagus river !
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Redblossom on February 25, 2014, 11:57:37 PM
Mistranslations originate usually from syntax, sometimes because the original text's syntax is somehow faulty or complex. Lexical errors are rare.
Especially when they are in English to English too which so many posters have shouted "must have been a translation error " in their blindness when talking around statements from the rogatories LOL, too funny!!
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on February 26, 2014, 06:14:18 AM
The English language is extremely complex and more so than the Latins. I have seen it time and time again where the wrong words have been used in translations.
Another example which I came across some years ago when I had reason to have Spanish legal documents translated was in the use of the very basic Spanish word 'uno'. You might well ask yourself how could one possibly go wrong with such a simple word. I can assure you that you can and a wrongful translation can alter the entire meaning of a document. Without going into great detail, this word can be translated as 'a' or 'one''. The particular document concerned was translated by the Crown Office but by sheer chance it was translated a second time by a registered translator engaged by my lawyers and the error identified, an error which by the way changed the meaning of the entire paragraph it was found in.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2014, 07:41:08 AM
The English language is extremely complex and more so than the Latins. I have seen it time and time again where the wrong words have been used in translations.
Another example which I came across some years ago when I had reason to have Spanish legal documents translated was in the use of the very basic Spanish word 'uno'. You might well ask yourself how could one possibly go wrong with such a simple word. I can assure you that you can and a wrongful translation can alter the entire meaning of a document. Without going into great detail, this word can be translated as 'a' or 'one''. The particular document concerned was translated by the Crown Office but by sheer chance it was translated a second time by a registered translator engaged by my lawyers and the error identified, an error which by the way changed the meaning of the entire paragraph it was found in.
Posters don't want to admit that there ARE errors in translations but there has to be.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: peter claridge on February 26, 2014, 11:44:12 AM
These http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap19 didn't require translating!
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on March 02, 2014, 04:37:24 PM
Off topic but just noticed in the files that daughter Aoife had her nationality translated as English in the mccannpjfiles.co.uk website and Irish on the mccannfiles.com site. Just what some posters were saying the other day about translations.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2014, 08:24:19 AM
Off topic but just noticed in the files that daughter Aoife had her nationality translated as English in the mccannpjfilesk.co.uk website and Irish on the mccannfiles.com site. Just what some posters were saying the other day about translations.
Well spotted, John. Not strictly speaking a translation issue, though - more of an absent-minded mistake by the PJ, I would think. At the top of the page in the PT original it states her nationality as Irish (this detail got left out in the online translation for some reason), but then goes on to state "being an English citizen" at the beginning of the actual statement. ("Por ser uma cidadã inglesa...")
Well spotted, John. Not strictly speaking a translation issue, though - more of an absent-minded mistake by the PJ, I would think. At the top of the page in the PT original it states her nationality as Irish (this detail got left out in the online translation for some reason), but then goes on to state "being an English citizen" at the beginning of the actual statement. ("Por ser uma cidadã inglesa...")
None of the online translations included all the blurb at the top of the page before the statements, so its not true it was left out for some reason in this particular case
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2014, 09:29:07 AM
None of the online translations included all the blurb at the top of the page before the statements, so its not true it was left out for some reason in this particular case
I wasn't suggesting that leaving it out was unique to this statement, nor that there was anything untoward in doing so.
The point is that some people have been insisting on various threads that there aren't any mistakes in the PJ statements / documents. There were and it is more obvious when reading the original as the nationality appears just above.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Redblossom on March 04, 2014, 11:07:47 AM
I wasn't suggesting that leaving it out was unique to this statement, nor that there was anything untoward in doing so.
The point is that some people have been insisting on various threads that there aren't any mistakes in the PJ statements / documents. There were and it is more obvious when reading the original as the nationality appears just above.
So why did you say:
At the top of the page in the PT original it states her nationality as Irish (this detail got left out in the online translation for some reason)
?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 04, 2014, 12:03:25 PM
The point is that some people have been insisting on various threads that there aren't any mistakes in the PJ statements / documents. There were and it is more obvious when reading the original as the nationality appears just above.
Who ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2014, 12:30:06 PM
At the top of the page in the PT original it states her nationality as Irish (this detail got left out in the online translation for some reason)
?
Would you have preferred it if I had simply said that her nationality was not translated? I don't know why it wasn't, nor why it has been left out of others.
The issue is still that there was a mistake in what the PJ wrote down (however irrelevant it was in that instance).
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 04, 2014, 03:22:34 PM
What counts is that relevant mistakes are corrected. I would never disturb Pamalam to have her correct or comment this one.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2014, 04:50:54 PM
If you've read the files, you've seen comments of the translator regarding the original text when it is relevant. xxx (likely yyy)...
Sometimes, yes. But not in the instance that John pointed out.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 04:33:29 AM
I don't want to extend this off topic but my own experience of English > Latins and vice-versa translations and especially those of legal documents is that they are never wholly accurate. It is impossible because Portuguese, Spanish and Italian etc does not translate directly into English. All a translator can possibly hope for is some sort of assimilation.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 08:14:12 AM
I don't want to extend this off topic but my own experience of English > Latins and vice-versa translations and especially those of legal documents is that they are never wholly accurate. It is impossible because Portuguese, Spanish and Italian etc does not translate directly into English. All a translator can possibly hope for is some sort of assimilation.
But it wasn't a translation issue: the PJ had noted that she was Irish, but then started the text by describing her as an English citizen.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:33:04 AM
But it wasn't a translation issue: the PJ had noted that she was Irish, but then started the text by describing her as an English citizen.
Thanks to you, now, everybody knows that on the same page an person is identified as "Irish" and then (speaking obviously missing) English ! What a progress !
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:35:26 AM
I don't want to extend this off topic but my own experience of English > Latins and vice-versa translations and especially those of legal documents is that they are never wholly accurate. It is impossible because Portuguese, Spanish and Italian etc does not translate directly into English. All a translator can possibly hope for is some sort of assimilation.
What do you mean, John ? Do you vaguely understand Danish and Dutch ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 11:51:05 AM
Thanks to you, now, everybody knows that on the same page an person is identified as "Irish" and then (speaking obviously missing) English ! What a progress !
It wasn't an issue of a word missing, either, as it said "being an English citizen". If it had said, "being an English speaker".
As it happens, the mistake is not important. It is no doubt an inadvertent mistake by the officer typing up the statement (unless the interpreter got it wrong). The issue, IMO, is that it shows that mistakes do happen and may be even more likely to occur in the initial chaos.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 05, 2014, 11:19:15 PM
It wasn't an issue of a word missing, either, as it said "being an English citizen". If it had said, "being an English speaker".
As it happens, the mistake is not important. It is no doubt an inadvertent mistake by the officer typing up the statement (unless the interpreter got it wrong). The issue, IMO, is that it shows that mistakes do happen and may be even more likely to occur in the initial chaos.
I suppose the English would be horrified to know that any one from The UK can be referred to as"English" by those from somewhere else?
Like the Hong Kong Chinese are still referred to as "Chinese" because technically they are, even though their culture is quite different to the mainland?
I think English is a mistranslated use of "from the UK" and not significant in the slightest to anyone outside the UK.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:34:25 PM
Why not "being an English speaking citizen" ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 07, 2014, 04:18:47 PM
http://www.legallanguage.com/legal-articles/court-interpreter-arkansas/ During the interview, a detective asked Mendez if he grabbed his girlfriend by the neck. Mendez’s response according to the prosecution’s translation was, “I did that.” But according to the defense’s translation, Mendez responded, “I didn’t do that.”
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 04:39:26 PM
I suppose the English would be horrified to know that any one from The UK can be referred to as"English" by those from somewhere else?
Like the Hong Kong Chinese are still referred to as "Chinese" because technically they are, even though their culture is quite different to the mainland?
I think English is a mistranslated use of "from the UK" and not significant in the slightest to anyone outside the UK.
But she isn't even from the UK, but from Eire. :)
As it happens, it's totally insignificant in terms of her statement. However, it does illustrate that mistakes can be made. IMO, if the mistake had been in one of the T9's statements, some quarters would have accused them of deception (i.e., it would be considered inconceivable that it was the PJ that had simply made an inadvertent mistake).
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Estuarine on March 07, 2014, 05:02:54 PM
Well our political past and geography is a bit esoteric. Great Britain United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland British Isles All different to those in the know but the same to those who aren't.
Most things administered by people will be prone to error. The trick is to recognise that and endeavour to keep errors to an acceptable level. Depending on the nature of the error there will be conspiracy theories. Par example:- If I trip over a brick and break my leg it's because I am a clumsy git who wasn't watching what he was doing. If a prince tripped over a brick and broke his leg someone would have put the brick there and it would have been an assassination attempt. 8(>((
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 05:07:42 PM
No, Carana, it only illustrates that insignificant mistakes can be made (when more than one translator looked at the same files)
The mistake over her citizenship was in the original PT statement recorded by a PJ officer. The mistake is not due to one of the volunteer translators.
The mistake over her citizenship was in the original PT statement recorded by a PJ officer. The mistake is not due to one of the volunteer translators.
@)(++(* In order to translate, the translators have to read carefully the original text, haven't they? If you read the files, you will find here and there a comment of the translator about some discrepancy in the original text.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 06:53:44 PM
@)(++(* In order to translate, the translators have to read carefully the original text, haven't they? If you read the files, you will find here and there a comment of the translator about some discrepancy in the original text.
But I just posted the original statement typed up by the PJ. :(
What Aoife said would have been in English and translated for the PJ officer by whoever was assisting her to interpret, but that's not the issue. Mistakes could have occurred in that trilateral situation, but if the PJ officer had noted her nationality just above and then proceeded to describe her as an English citizen, whose mistake would that have been?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 07:06:39 PM
But I just posted the original statement typed up by the PJ. :(
What Aoife said would have been in English and translated for the PJ officer by whoever was assisting her to interpret, but that's not the issue. Mistakes could have occurred in that trilateral situation, but if the PJ officer had noted her nationality just above and then proceeded to describe her as an English citizen, whose mistake would that have been?
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 07:29:07 PM
As it happens, it's totally insignificant in terms of her statement. However, it does illustrate that mistakes can be made. IMO, if the mistake had been in one of the T9's statements, some quarters would have accused them of deception (i.e., it would be considered inconceivable that it was the PJ that had simply made an inadvertent mistake).
When I first noticed it I assumed that Aoife had flown the coop like so many Irish youngsters and was now living in England. Then I realised she was only 12 years of age.
Most north Americans wrongly refer to Great Britain as England...same mistake as the translators made.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 08, 2014, 04:00:03 AM
When I first noticed it I assumed that Aoife had flown the coop like so many Irish youngsters and was now living in England. Then I realised she was only 12 years of age.
Most north Americans wrongly refer to Great Britain as England...same mistake as the translators made.
Its an easily explained translation and not even important. Its not even an error, strictly speaking as Ireland always was part of the UK. Only a local would care.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Cariad on March 08, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
I suppose the English would be horrified to know that any one from The UK can be referred to as"English" by those from somewhere else?
Like the Hong Kong Chinese are still referred to as "Chinese" because technically they are, even though their culture is quite different to the mainland?
I think English is a mistranslated use of "from the UK" and not significant in the slightest to anyone outside the UK.
No, the English probably wouldn't notice at all. The Irish, Welsh and Scottish, however, are often horrified by it.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carew on March 08, 2014, 10:01:49 AM
Its an easily explained translation and not even important. Its not even an error, strictly speaking as Ireland always was part of the UK. Only a local would care.
Drogheda is in Eire, not Northern Ireland.
The PJ could as easily have said "being an American / Canadian / Australian / New Zealand citizen... " Or Greek or Chinese for that matter.
Why is this considered to be a translation issue when the PJ had noted her nationality (and presumably her ID)?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 11:12:34 AM
The mistake is understandable, but it is a mistake Anne. Suggest you just accept it rather than try and cover it up.
Anne's post 46 acknowledges the mistake so she is hardly trying to cover it up. Is it really such a big deal that a citizen of THE BRITISH ISLES is attributed to the wrong country. How so sloppy policework? the PJ document posted above clearly states she is from Ireland.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 03:43:39 PM
Anne's post 46 acknowledges the mistake so she is hardly trying to cover it up. Is it really such a big deal that a citizen of THE BRITISH ISLES is attributed to the wrong country. How so sloppy policework? the PJ document posted above clearly states she is from Ireland.
Well Annes later post sounds like she is., Today at 11:12:34 AM » Insert Quote
Quote
One must recognize that you've got a genius to make something out of nothing !
She is making nothing of it !! A mistake is a mistake and better not to deny iy it / cover it up as nothing
What is the point of her post otherwise? Or is she just abusing Carana by sneering at her?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 06:13:26 PM
Something out of nothing !!! Sloppy policework is sloppy police work. The mistake is understandable, but it is a mistake Anne. Suggest you just accept it rather than try and cover it up.
Wasn't there a police officer in Praia Da Luz who thought he was in a different country?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2014, 09:45:56 AM
Wasn't there a police officer in Praia Da Luz who thought he was in a different country?
Yes. Bob Small told Jane on the phone that the Spanish [sic] police needed to meet her.
Not quite the same thing as mistakes in official documents.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 13, 2014, 02:17:08 AM
If a PJ officer while in Leicester to observe the rogs had referred to the Leic police as the "Garda", the UK press would have been fed articles "PJ dont even know what country they're in" >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:23 AM
If a Portuguese policeman cannot even get right the name of the country where a witness cones from what else have they misinterpreted? It's a good job Smith made his statement about identifying Gerry to the Garda in Drogheda, at least they understood him.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: ferryman on March 13, 2014, 09:26:05 AM
Extract:- And Bob SMALL rang, erm, rang me on my phone and sort of said, well he scared the living daylights out of me, because rather than saying ‘The Portuguese Police want to talk to you’, or you know, ‘I want to pick you up to see the Portuguese Police’, he said ‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’ and all this, so it was sort of a bit and because he’d said Spanish Police, I thought there was some sort of a strange conspiracy going on, so it was like, oh, but, I mean, he just got”. 4078 “Got it wrong”. Reply “He just got mixed up. But that made me even more suspicious because it was like, so I think at that point, I think I actually spoke to Stewart then, because I thought, I didn’t even know who Bob SMALL was at that point, so it was like, you know, and that, we were obviously worried about the Press and everything at that point
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 10:22:00 AM
If a PJ officer while in Leicester to observe the rogs had referred to the Leic police as the "Garda", the UK press would have been fed articles "PJ dont even know what country they're in" >@@(*&)
True.
Any cop can make a mistake. LP may well have made others along the way. Grime also made a mistake when he stated that Keela marked the boot behind the driver's door - that wasn't a translation error, either.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on March 13, 2014, 10:34:47 AM
I observed in the translated Report by Tavares de Almeida that the car boot is called a 'booth'. Is this for real?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
I observed in the translated Report by Tavares de Almeida that the car boot is called a 'booth'. Is this for real?
LOL. An autocorrect typo by whichever volunteer translated it, I expect. English speakers would presumably understand the mistake, but it would be gibberish for anyone trying to translate from the English into another language, unless they could check the original Portuguese.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2014, 10:56:42 AM
Any cop can make a mistake. LP may well have made others along the way. Grime also made a mistake when he stated that Keela marked the boot behind the driver's door - that wasn't a translation error, either.
Tavares de Almeida also made the mistake of thinking Gerry was a heart surgeon - and used that occupation as a reason why he was able to stay cool and calm. Completely wrong of course, but whether that clanger was as a result of a translation error at some time - or just sloppy policework - who knows?
Quote Gerald McCann's profession is a cardiovascular surgeon.
On many moments of his professional career he had to make decisions in thousandths of a second, which gives him certain 'coldness' and, certainly provokes an increased tiredness Unquote
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 11:02:22 AM
Tavares de Almeida also made the mistake of thinking Gerry was a heart surgeon - and used that occupation as a reason why he was able to stay cool and calm. Completely wrong of course, but whether that clanger was as a result of a translation error at some time - or just sloppy policework - who knows?
Quote Gerald McCann's profession is a cardiovascular surgeon.
On many moments of his professional career he had to make decisions in thousandths of a second, which gives him certain 'coldness' and, certainly provokes an increased tiredness Unquote
That could be a lost-in-confusion / misinterpretation of reaction to stress and/ or translation issue, IMO.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2014, 11:17:19 AM
That could be a lost-in-confusion / misinterpretation of reaction to stress and/ or translation issue, IMO.
One would think that if the police were going to use GM's profession 'against' him (which is in effect what TdA was doing) then they would make sure they got his profession right in the first place.
I don't believe Gerry would have said he was a surgeon at any time.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 11:25:35 AM
One would think that if the police were going to use GM's profession 'against' him (which is in effect what TdA was doing) then they would make sure they got his profession right in the first place.
I don't believe Gerry would have said he was a surgeon at any time.
Wasn't the context the lollipop-sucking and chatting about football episode while waiting for potentially important information? If so, GA's team may have found this odd, but people relieve stress in different ways.
It could have been a quip from an LP officer if the PJ had mentioned that they'd found the reaction was odd, and who had mistakenly thought that he was a surgeon.
Hardly evidence, more likely banter between cops, somehow relayed to Amaral who took it as fact.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2014, 11:51:12 AM
Wasn't the context the lollipop-sucking and chatting about football episode while waiting for potentially important information? If so, GA's team may have found this odd, but people relieve stress in different ways.
It could have been a quip from an LP officer if the PJ had mentioned that they'd found the reaction was odd, and who had mistakenly thought that he was a surgeon.
Hardly evidence, more likely banter between cops, somehow relayed to Amaral who took it as fact.
Having read Amaral's twisted interpretation of Kate's reaction to being called back to the Police Station on the 4th May when she clearly thought they had found Madeleine and arrived in a state of terror as to whether she was still alive or not - only to be confronted with a photograph of a potential sighting and thus was completely devastated - I wouldn't believe a word he says about anything which happened on occasions when he wasn't there.
According to Amaral
''Kate Healy seems annoyed at coming back and made uncomfortable by the speed of the police car taking her. We are somewhat astonished by her reaction, as if she was not expecting to get her daughter back'' unquote
Who is this 'we' he talks about.? He wasn't there.
(OOps sorry I think I'm straying off topic here)
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 17, 2014, 01:48:27 AM
Having read Amaral's twisted interpretation of Kate's reaction to being called back to the Police Station on the 4th May when she clearly thought they had found Madeleine and arrived in a state of terror as to whether she was still alive or not - only to be confronted with a photograph of a potential sighting and thus was completely devastated - I wouldn't believe a word he says about anything which happened on occasions when he wasn't there.
According to Amaral
''Kate Healy seems annoyed at coming back and made uncomfortable by the speed of the police car taking her. We are somewhat astonished by her reaction, as if she was not expecting to get her daughter back'' unquote
Who is this 'we' he talks about.? He wasn't there.
(OOps sorry I think I'm straying off topic here)
The "we" refers to the entire investigating team, not Amaral the individual.
McCann supporters wish to blame Amaral for everything but at the end of the day, he was just spokesman. Figurehead, leader, but not the sole investigator nor the only one who believe the parents are involved.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 17, 2014, 07:49:57 AM
Having read Amaral's twisted interpretation of Kate's reaction to being called back to the Police Station on the 4th May when she clearly thought they had found Madeleine and arrived in a state of terror as to whether she was still alive or not - only to be confronted with a photograph of a potential sighting and thus was completely devastated - I wouldn't believe a word he says about anything which happened on occasions when he wasn't there.
According to Amaral
''Kate Healy seems annoyed at coming back and made uncomfortable by the speed of the police car taking her. We are somewhat astonished by her reaction, as if she was not expecting to get her daughter back'' unquote
Who is this 'we' he talks about.? He wasn't there.
(OOps sorry I think I'm straying off topic here)
You are absolutely right Benice...amaral gives the false impression that he was there...un,ess of course it is another translation error...back on topic
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: drummer on March 17, 2014, 08:36:45 AM
GA: And then we watch that, us Portuguese who were there...
JP: ... and the English...
GA: ... and the English, we watched it in stupefaction, he was sitting there with a lollipop laughing on the phone and we were all waiting...
JP: We're talking about Gerry McCann, at the moment when, because someone did try a coup like that, correct? So while you were waiting for him to make contact with you…
GA: … maybe it was his way of reacting to that tension, maybe it's justifiable but to us, we were shocked, it's not. We were searching for his daughter, doing our job.
JP: While he visited sites on the internet...
GA: No, he was on the phone.
JP: Ah he was on the phone and sucking on a lollipop wasn't it and laughing and chatting?
GA: Yes! Completely detached from what was going on and about to happen…
JP: So that shocked you in particular?
GA: Me and the colleagues who were present.
He seems to give the impression he was present several times??
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 09:26:20 AM
Translated documents are prone to errors.
But do the nitpickery errors alter the broad sense?
Ask an average German to translate technical German!
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 09:43:32 AM
You are absolutely right Benice...amaral gives the false impression that he was there...un,ess of course it is another translation error...back on topic
Obviously the team under Amaral were keeping him briefed as they were obliged to do. He didn't require to have a physical presence to know what was going on.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 17, 2014, 10:01:10 AM
Obviously the team under Amaral were keeping him briefed as they were obliged to do. He didn't require to have a physical presence to know what was going on.
If it was all quite normal then why would Amaral want to conceal that fact from his readers? There is not the smallest clue in his book that he had never actually met or spoken to the McCanns. In fact quite the opposite impression is promoted - and deliberately so IMO.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 10:10:40 AM
Obviously the team under Amaral were keeping him briefed as they were obliged to do. He didn't require to have a physical presence to know what was going on.
No, but (IMO) the issue is then that some of what he says can come across as misleading. Someone who has witnessed something directly may come across as more credible (it must be true, he was there), than if it's second- or thirdhand hearsay, with the potential for a Chinese whispers effect along the way. Without knowing who the intermediaries are (and the extent of their understanding of English and their perceptions), there is presumably room for misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 10:17:08 AM
One would think that if the police were going to use GM's profession 'against' him (which is in effect what TdA was doing) then they would make sure they got his profession right in the first place.
I don't believe Gerry would have said he was a surgeon at any time.
But if someone (preferably an LP officer, possibly intended as an innocent quip, whether that person had any idea or not) told them he was a surgeon, that's good enough to cite it as fact. The "fact" being that that is what they may have been told, not that it was verified that that was his profession.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 10:22:46 AM
If it was all quite normal then why would Amaral want to conceal that fact from his readers? There is not the smallest clue in his book that he had never actually met or spoken to the McCanns. In fact quite the opposite impression is promoted - and deliberately so IMO.
Maybe one of the Portuguese members can answer this. Is it normal for the Coordinator to meet the arguidos in a criminal investigation? Certainly in the UK it is not normal for a Detective Chief Superintendent to meet suspects as that job is left to more junior staff members.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 10:26:49 AM
When you have people alleging that documents that were produced in english by english speaking persons are wrong, you can expect everything.
They act like those poor foxes they so much like to hunt.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 10:36:23 AM
When you have people alleging that documents that were produced in english by english speaking persons are wrong, you can expect everything.
They act like those poor foxes they so much like to hunt.
Off the top of my head:
- where is it stated in the files that Gerry is a heart surgeon? - where is there an official record of Stu Prior's alleged phone conversation with FSS?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 10:52:30 AM
You should worry about the case and not with fabricating lies, as if that would excuse the McCann's.
We were actually discussing translation errors / mistakes in original documents and potential errors due to misunderstandings.
Perhaps you didn't have time to read the thread before reacting...
NB: What lies have I fabricated?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 03:24:47 PM
If McCann was not a heart surgeon why would he be mentioned as such in the police files? What people say in small talk is not, fortunately, registered in police reports;
Why should phone conversations by Prior be reported & inserted in the official files - did you expect PJ to make reports whenever they went to the loo?!
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 03:58:58 PM
Thanks for your Monday morning replies, Luz.
Fascinating, as always.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 05:58:29 PM
If McCann was not a heart surgeon why would he be mentioned as such in the police files? What people say in small talk is not, fortunately, registered in police reports;
Why should phone conversations by Prior be reported & inserted in the official files - did you expect PJ to make reports whenever they went to the loo?!
I wouldn't expect loo conversations between PJ officers to be published in a book accusing the parents of a missing child of crimes... But then I guess we see things differently.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 09:09:15 PM
A lame watered down apology by the incompetent bbc: -------------------------- ECU Ruling: East Midlands Today, BBC1 (East Midlands), 12 January 2011
Complaint The programme included a brief exchange between a reporter and Gonçalo Amaral (a former policeman who had worked on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and had since written a book on the case). One word in the exchange was bleeped, and the report gave the impression that this was because Sr Amaral had used offensive language about the MrCanns. A viewer complained that this was inaccurate and unfair to Sr Amaral.
Outcome The reporter's belief, reinforced by others on the programme team who viewed the recording, was that Sr Amaral had indeed used an English phrase which included an offensive term applied to the McCanns. On further examination, however, it became clear that Sr Amaral had been speaking Portuguese, and that an inoffensive phrase had been misconstrued. Upheld
Further action The Editor of the programme has discussed the outcome with the producer and reporter involved. In future, the team plans to use interpreters if clips from interviews are unclear. ------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 10:10:00 PM
The amazing beebeecee approach to translation: Do not use a translator. Just assume portuguese people are talking english and if you hear some portuguese that sounds like an english swear word, go with it. Don't worry if the mistake of turning "Fala com" ("ask the") into "F------" spreads to huge headlines on the front pages of every tabloid. And ff anyone files an official complaint about it just issue some watered down minimal admission and be sure not to use the word "apologise" or "sorry".
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 10:22:13 PM
If McCann was not a heart surgeon why would he be mentioned as such in the police files? What people say in small talk is not, fortunately, registered in police reports;
Why should phone conversations by Prior be reported & inserted in the official files - did you expect PJ to make reports whenever they went to the loo?!
FOR THE FINAL TIME - GERRY MCCANN WAS A HEART SURGEON.
It is a prerequisite of entry to the Training for the specialisation.
NO CARDIOLOGIST goes straight from veruca warts to cardiology. How insane.
He is NO LONGER performing surgery but that does not mean he didn't perform heart surgery. He did. A lot.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 11:50:57 PM
IMO the biggest translation error ever made in this case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA5R7c1c42A Mr Amaral actually said "Fala com os Mccanns" ("Ask the Mccanns") but the BBC instead of thinking to use a translator just went with oh that sounds like he said "F------- Mccanns" and so the BBC broadcast that incorrect allegation, which was then parroted nastily on front pages of UK tabloids. Lucky they don't run the World Service. Oh hang on they do. 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 18, 2014, 12:03:02 AM
IMO the biggest translation error ever made in this case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA5R7c1c42A Mr Amaral actually said "Fala com os Mccanns" ("Ask the Mccanns") but the BBC instead of thinking to use a translator just went with oh that sounds like he said "F------- Mccanns" and so the BBC broadcast that incorrect allegation, which was then parroted nastily on front pages of UK tabloids. Does this indicate that the BBC are "Fala com" incompetent? >@@(*&)
On the other hand Pegasus when you ask a person a question in English - and that question is answered without hesitation using what sounds very much like English words - it seems reasonable enough to assume that the reply was actually in English. It was a genuine and understandable mistake IMO.
For someone who IIRC we have been told in the past does not speak English - he certainly had no difficulty in understanding the question.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 18, 2014, 12:13:25 AM
On the other hand Pegasus when you ask a person a question in English - and that question is answered without hesitation using what sounds very much like English words - it seems reasonable enough to assume that the reply was actually in English. It was a genuine and understandable mistake IMO.
For someone who IIRC we have been told in the past does not speak English - he certainly had no difficulty in understanding the question.
Why can't you just acknowledge that Amaral's words were mistranslated, and that he was 'reviled' in the British press for a phrase he had never used ?
Is it only the McCanns who are permitted to play the 'lost in translation' card ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: sadie on March 18, 2014, 12:16:25 AM
FOR THE FINAL TIME - GERRY MCCANN WAS A HEART SURGEON.
It is a prerequisite of entry to the Training for the specialisation.
NO CARDIOLOGIST goes straight from veruca warts to cardiology. How insane.
He is NO LONGER performing surgery but that does not mean he didn't perform heart surgery. He did. A lot.
I think that you will find that Gerry is not a heart surgeon. He is a cardiologist, a physician
During his training he may well have performed surgery but usually that is not the case after specializing in Cardiology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiology
Cardiology (from Greek καρδίᾱ, kardiā, "heart"; and -λογία, -logia) is a medical specialty dealing with disorders of the heart be it human or animal. The field includes medical diagnosis and treatment of congenital heart defects, coronary artery disease, heart failure, valvular heart disease and electrophysiology. Physicians who specialize in this field of medicine are called cardiologists. Physicians who specialize in cardiac surgery are called cardiac surgeons.
I am very prepared to be proven wrong with this, but I think you will find that I am correct
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Anna on March 18, 2014, 12:20:15 AM
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 12:23:39 AM
Accepting that Amaral answered an english language question with a portuguese language answer, I however think it was incompetent of the BBC (a worldwide broadcaster in hundreds of languages) to proceed with broadcasting their false allegation with their only check being to ask probably 5 or 6 staff who do not even understand spoken portuguese.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: sadie on March 18, 2014, 12:25:53 AM
Why can't you just acknowledge that Amaral's words were mistranslated, and that he was 'reviled' in the British press for a phrase he had never used ?
Is it only the McCanns who are permitted to play the 'lost in translation' card ?
You are missing the point. No translation took place as it did not occur to the reporter that translation was necessary because he thought Amaral was replying in English. That is a unique situation IMO. There is nothing in that scenario to compare with anything to do with translation in the McCann case files. None of their replies or those of their friends were ever mistakenly thought to be in Portuguese.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 18, 2014, 12:41:24 AM
Accepting that Amaral answered an english language question with a portuguese language answer, I however think it was incompetent of the BBC (a worldwide broadcaster in hundreds of languages) to proceed with broadcasting their false allegation with their only check being to ask probably 5 or 6 staff who do not even understand spoken portuguese.
I take your point Pegasus but a case of 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' IMO.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 18, 2014, 12:53:58 AM
You are missing the point. No translation took place as it did not occur to the reporter that translation was necessary because he thought Amaral was replying in English. That is a unique situation IMO. There is nothing in that scenario to compare with anything to do with translation in the McCann case files. None of their replies or those of their friends were ever mistakenly thought to be in Portuguese.
Not unique at all, as it happens
From Kate's book ( page 126 )
"By the Sunday evening, we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on the first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly. Unfortunately, in our haste to pass the new statements to the PJ , we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies. And they had been given in English !"
So, these detectives from Control Risks were speaking in English to the MccCanns, and the McCanns were replying in English
What was the misunderstanding there then ? .... how did those 'inaccuracies' Kate speaks of, come about ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 18, 2014, 01:01:57 AM
"By the Sunday evening, we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on the first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly. Unfortunately, in our haste to pass the new statements to the PJ , we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies. And they had been given in English !"
So, these detectives from Control Risks were speaking in English to the MccCanns, and the McCanns were replying in English
What was the misunderstanding there then ? .... how did those 'inaccuaries' Kate speaks of, come about ?
My point was that the Reporter thought Amaral was replying in English.
At no time did the PJ think the McCanns or their friends were replying in Portuguese and made mistakes because of such a misunderstanding.
There is no comparison between that scenario and the one you quote above imo.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 18, 2014, 01:10:55 AM
I take your point Pegasus but a case of 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' IMO.
It is lack of foresight (foresight defined as BBC executive ensuring that the reporter sent to Lisbon and at least one person in production actually understand a little basic portuguese).
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 18, 2014, 01:26:18 AM
Well, 'comparisons' aside, would you care to offer an opinion on the inaccuracies in the statements ( made in English ) that Kate refers to ?
How might that have happened, do you think, where no 'translation' issue' existed ?
I think it is very relevant to this thread
I think mistakes can happen - unless the person making the statement is actually writing it out themselves - especially if no tape is involved - only notes which are then transcribed by others.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 18, 2014, 02:17:13 AM
I think mistakes can happen - unless the person making the statement is actually writing it out themselves - especially if no tape is involved - only notes which are then transcribed by others.
These were statements, given by the McCanns to detectives from Control Risks ( privately employed ) with the intention of passing them on to the Portuguese police
StatementS given in English ... to English speakers ... that must surely have been read, verified, aNd signed by the McCanns before Control Risks ( being privately paid ) would even consider passing them on to the 'real' police
And yet, Kate, in her book, claims that there were 'inaccuracies' in those statements ( given to people who were being paid to represent her and Gerry ) ... and necessarily read and signed by the McCanns themselves ( not much point in a statement that isn't signed, afterall )
How did that happen then ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Cariad on March 18, 2014, 07:58:35 AM
On the other hand Pegasus when you ask a person a question in English - and that question is answered without hesitation using what sounds very much like English words - it seems reasonable enough to assume that the reply was actually in English. It was a genuine and understandable mistake IMO.
For someone who IIRC we have been told in the past does not speak English - he certainly had no difficulty in understanding the question.
If you asked me if I spoke welsh, I'd say no, however I understand a hell of a lot more than I can speak. I can usually get the gist of something, but I couldn't reply in Welsh. Understanding and speaking a language is really quite different, mostly because of sentence formation.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Cariad on March 18, 2014, 08:06:51 AM
FOR THE FINAL TIME - GERRY MCCANN WAS A HEART SURGEON.
It is a prerequisite of entry to the Training for the specialisation.
NO CARDIOLOGIST goes straight from veruca warts to cardiology. How insane.
He is NO LONGER performing surgery but that does not mean he didn't perform heart surgery. He did. A lot.
A cardiologist is not a surgeon. I don't know if this is a difference in British and Australian (?) healthcare, but cardiologists treat heat conditions medically. They diagnose. A surgeon will only preform surgery.
Here you study medicine in general and then specialize. A cardiologist will know everything about how the heart functions, but would not be expected to put it back together again. A surgeon would be able to 'fix' a heart, but wouldn't be expected to be able to diagnose.
Surgeons are the specialists of specialists, so to speak. They are at the top of their pay scale and don't do anything else.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 18, 2014, 08:09:04 AM
A cardiologist is not a surgeon. I don't know if this is a difference in British and Australian (?) healthcare, but cardiologists treat heat conditions medically. They diagnose. A surgeon will only preform surgery.
Here you study medicine in general and then specialize. A cardiologist will know everything about how the heart functions, but would not be expected to put it back together again. A surgeon would be able to 'fix' a heart, but wouldn't be expected to be able to diagnose.
Surgeons are the specialists of specialists, so to speak. They are at the top of their pay scale and don't do anything else.
You have made a perfectly good logical argument that is entirely correct...I doubt whiskas will accept it
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 02:03:58 PM
Mr Amaral mistakenly turns "cardiologist" into "surgeon". Result: no harm done to anyone. BBC mistakenly turns "Ask the ......." into "F-----g ......." and several UK tabloids repeat it without checking. Result: Seriously incorrect information fed to over 10 million of the UK public.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Mr Amaral mistakenly turns "cardiologist" into "surgeon". Result: no harm done to anyone. BBC mistakenly turns "Ask the ......." into "F-----g ......." and several UK tabloids repeat it without checking. Result: Seriously incorrect information fed to over 10 million of the UK public.
What about the tabloids (both PT and UK) that reported on "tufts of hair", "body fluids" and 100% matches in the Scenic?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 03:05:02 PM
Mr Amaral mistakenly turns "cardiologist" into "surgeon". Result: no harm done to anyone. BBC mistakenly turns "Ask the ......." into "F-----g ......." and several UK tabloids repeat it without checking. Result: Seriously incorrect information fed to over 10 million of the UK public.
I disagree... repeating the incorrect assertion that he was a surgeon was to insinuate that, as a result of his profession, he had to make clinical, reflex and instantaneous decisions - i.e., cover up the death of his daughter.
IMO.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Benice on March 18, 2014, 05:06:52 PM
I disagree... repeating the incorrect assertion that he was a surgeon was to insinuate that, as a result of his profession, he had to make clinical, reflex and instantaneous decisions - i.e., cover up the death of his daughter.
IMO.
I agree.
Reposting:-
Tavares de Almeida also made the mistake of thinking Gerry was a heart surgeon - and used that occupation as a reason why he was able to stay cool and calm. Completely wrong of course, but whether that clanger was as a result of a translation error at some time - or just sloppy policework - who knows?
Quote
Gerald McCann's profession is a cardiovascular surgeon.
On many moments of his professional career he had to make decisions in thousandths of a second, which gives him certain 'coldness' and, certainly provokes an increased tiredness Unquote
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 09:26:44 PM
speaking of translation errors...what does provokes an increased tiredness mean...I presume its meant to be english
"... provoca um cansaço acrescido" "... causes increased tiredness" (as in a high powered job being more exhausting than a laid back job) or maybe "causes increased stress" but you would have to confirm that with a portuguese speaker.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 18, 2014, 09:28:52 PM
Just to make it clear, I posted the original Portuguese text, followed by my own translation into English.
P.S Which translation do you think is poor?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on April 16, 2014, 02:45:30 AM
Wikipedia is an excellent source of information but as has been pointed out there are occasions when the less monitored pages have been altered and not corrected. Always best to double check any information with another source before quoting it,
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: sadie on April 16, 2014, 02:52:17 AM
Wikipedia is an excellent source of information but as has been pointed out there are occasions when the less monitored pages have been altered and not corrected. Always best to double check any information with another source before quoting it,
I am happy to agree with that . Generally they are fine, but some Wikis have been maliciously altered. Alterations can be checkede, but they dont always give the full picture, as in the case I was watching. There they wrere blatently disguised as small detail when in fact they were mega.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2014, 03:38:54 AM
I agree with you Sadie, that there may possibly have been cases of wiki entries being edited by paid Public Relations Professionals (i.e. media manipulation peeps).
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on April 18, 2014, 11:21:09 AM
I agree with you Sadie, that there may possibly have been cases of wiki entries being edited by paid Public Relations Professionals (i.e. media manipulation peeps).
Wikipedians are a canny lot. Every article usually has watchers who are automatically notified if any changes are made. Every article has an entire history connected to it and can be reverted to a former state at any time.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 18, 2014, 12:50:31 PM
Wikipedians are a canny lot. Every article usually has watchers who are automatically notified if any changes are made. Every article has an entire history connected to it and can be reverted to a former state at any time.
Well, it's probably fair to assume that the 'Disappearance of Madeleine McCann' wiki-page has MANY 'watchers' ... and that any misiformation added would be put right by lawyers PDQ
So then, given that the page states , "The McCanns sought but failed to reach an out of court settlement in January 2013" we can agree that it was the McCanns who wanted to halt the libel trial agains Amaral
...otherwise the page 'watchers' would have had that claim corrected - right ?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 18, 2014, 01:00:03 PM
Well, it's probably fair to assume that the 'Disappearance of Madeleine McCann' wiki-page has MANY 'watchers' ... and that any misiformation added would be put right by lawyers PDQ
So then, given that the page states , "The McCanns sought but failed to reach an out of court settlement in January 2013" we can agree that it was the McCanns who wanted to halt the libel trial agains Amaral
...otherwise the page 'watchers' would have had that claim corrected - right ?
the mccanns sought an out if court settlement with Bennett before destroying him in court. Seeking an out of court settlement is not a sign of weakness
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 18, 2014, 01:09:40 PM
the mccanns sought an out if court settlement with Bennett before destroying him in court. Seeking an out of court settlement is not a sign of weakness
I'm just saying that it was the McCanns who wanted to have the libel trial halted and not Amaral ( according to the wiki-page )
That point was often argued here, afterall
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 18, 2014, 01:16:20 PM
Well, it's probably fair to assume that the 'Disappearance of Madeleine McCann' wiki-page has MANY 'watchers' ... and that any misiformation added would be put right by lawyers PDQ
So then, given that the page states , "The McCanns sought but failed to reach an out of court settlement in January 2013" we can agree that it was the McCanns who wanted to halt the libel trial against Amaral
...otherwise the page 'watchers' would have had that claim corrected - right ?
Correct, it was not the McCanns intention to halt the libel trial. They wanted a settlement from Amaral in the form of hard cash...a big difference.
Wikipedia correct on that one.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: John on April 18, 2014, 01:25:05 PM
the mccanns sought an out if court settlement with Bennett before destroying him in court. Seeking an out of court settlement is not a sign of weakness
It is when the onus is in the plaintiffs to prove their case.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: drummer on April 18, 2014, 08:03:41 PM
Just a quick comment, don't know if it makes a difference or not, but I did notice that some of the original statements were interpreted by a "sworn" interpreter and others just by an interpreter.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: ferryman on April 19, 2014, 08:22:25 AM
Lest there be doubt that the files we read on line have been tampered with, read this.
The key part is an absence: referencing of this section to the official files.
The reason is (confirmed by someone who has the actual DVD) that it does not appear in the official files.
Scary ....
Signed. Inspection of the apartments. TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH BY ANNA ESSE Inspection of the apartments.
Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert), Eddie & Keela (English Springers) Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.
On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:
5A:
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through. 8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom. 8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road. From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through. 8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.
5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.
Date: 01 ao? 2007 - 06h00
Inspection of the surrounding areas.
Date: August 1st - 6am
After evaluation of the area surrounding the Ocean Club tourist village, based in Praia da Luz, taking account of the characteristic topography of the ground and the distance from where the small child Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was carried out with the help of dogs specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in various places, such as described:
1 - At 6.40am, an area between the "Piteira" road and the "Oliveira" road, was inspected. At 7.15am the inspection was completed with nothing being detected by the dogs.
2 - At 7.25am, an area adjacent to the "BEIJAFLOR" property on the "Figueira," road, defined by the "Ramalhete" road. An inspection of the whole area was made and nothing abnormal was noted. The inspection was completed at 7.45am.
3 - At 7.55am, an area between the "Casa Azul" residence on the "Figueira" road and the "Casa Pandora" residence as well as a dirt road on the left of the "Figueira" road was inspected by the dogs without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.05am.
4 - At 8.20am, an area between the residences "Casa Pandora" on the "Figueira" road, "Quinta Mimosa" and "Casa Ladeira" without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.40am.
A photographic report of the places inspected is attached.
Initial conclusion.
To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.
Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.
So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:
1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal. 2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.
We suggest that this inspection is entrusted to the PJ and ask the Public Prosecutor for a 20 day mandate. Thus, we consider that there are indications that consolidate strong suspicions according to which, there are elements of evidence of a crime, inside the vehicle used by the McCann's and, moreover, likely to reveal important details of fundamental importance for the investigation.
Villa rue des Fleurs.
Scroll down to the 4th section marked by the dark blue band ...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2014, 08:24:27 AM
Lest there be doubt that the files we read on line have been tampered with, read this.
The key part is an absence: referencing of this section to the official files.
The reason is (confirmed by someone who has the actual DVD) that it does not appear in the official files.
Scary ....
Signed. Inspection of the apartments. TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH BY ANNA ESSE Inspection of the apartments.
Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert), Eddie & Keela (English Springers) Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.
On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:
5A:
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through. 8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom. 8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road. From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through. 8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.
5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.
Date: 01 ao? 2007 - 06h00
Inspection of the surrounding areas.
Date: August 1st - 6am
After evaluation of the area surrounding the Ocean Club tourist village, based in Praia da Luz, taking account of the characteristic topography of the ground and the distance from where the small child Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was carried out with the help of dogs specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in various places, such as described:
1 - At 6.40am, an area between the "Piteira" road and the "Oliveira" road, was inspected. At 7.15am the inspection was completed with nothing being detected by the dogs.
2 - At 7.25am, an area adjacent to the "BEIJAFLOR" property on the "Figueira," road, defined by the "Ramalhete" road. An inspection of the whole area was made and nothing abnormal was noted. The inspection was completed at 7.45am.
3 - At 7.55am, an area between the "Casa Azul" residence on the "Figueira" road and the "Casa Pandora" residence as well as a dirt road on the left of the "Figueira" road was inspected by the dogs without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.05am.
4 - At 8.20am, an area between the residences "Casa Pandora" on the "Figueira" road, "Quinta Mimosa" and "Casa Ladeira" without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.40am.
A photographic report of the places inspected is attached.
Initial conclusion.
To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.
Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.
So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:
1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal. 2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.
We suggest that this inspection is entrusted to the PJ and ask the Public Prosecutor for a 20 day mandate. Thus, we consider that there are indications that consolidate strong suspicions according to which, there are elements of evidence of a crime, inside the vehicle used by the McCann's and, moreover, likely to reveal important details of fundamental importance for the investigation.
Villa rue des Fleurs.
Cut and pasting ferryman does not prove anything.
You know that don't you ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: ferryman on April 19, 2014, 08:27:15 AM
Scroll down to the 4th section marked by the dark blue band in this link:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Cariad on April 19, 2014, 08:32:41 AM
The actual files would have been translated from Portuguese.
There are a few documents on Pamalam's site that aren't actually part of the files. One was someone's summary of something or other and it wasn't clear that the origin was someone's attempt to summarise what they'd understood.
The one that you are questioning was one of the first translations/summaries of the files. It was from Portuguese to French and posted on a now-defunct francophone blog, then re-translated into English. I don't see anything odd in the sense of tampering, but I see no reason why that is still there.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
There are a few documents on Pamalam's site that aren't actually part of the files. One was someone's summary of something or other and it wasn't clear that the origin was someone's attempt to summarise what they'd understood.
The one that you are questioning was one of the first translations/summaries of the files. It was from Portuguese to French and posted on a now-defunct francophone blog, then re-translated into English. I don't see anything odd in the sense of tampering, but I see no reason why that is still there.
Interesting.
Going way back, before the files were released, I have a recollection of The Times getting hold of something it attributed to Joao Carlos saying something similar to that.
But why is it not numerically linked to the official files?
Ah, I see, because it is not part of the files, but a true rendering of something someone's written that was never intended to form part of the files.
Is that it?
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2014, 05:44:20 PM
Going way back, before the files were released, I have a recollection of The Times getting hold of something it attributed to Joao Carlos saying something similar to that.
But why is it not numerically linked to the official files?
Ah, I see, because it is not part of the files, but a true rendering of something someone's written that was never intended to form part of the files.
Is that it?
Yes, FM. It isn't part of the files. It was a blogger attempting to translate that document from PT to French, whcih then got retranslated to English. I don't know why that's still on there. The original reason may have been because it was the first attempt to provide a translation and it has never been taken down.
There are a few other bits that aren't part of the files either, just summaries / notes /translations that were uploaded as they became available. Some are helpful, but not all are labelled as not being official documents.
Title: Re: Translated documents are prone to errors.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2014, 07:52:06 PM
Yes, FM. It isn't part of the files. It was a blogger attempting to translate that document from PT to French, whcih then got retranslated to English. I don't know why that's still on there. The original reason may have been because it was the first attempt to provide a translation and it has never been taken down.
There are a few other bits that aren't part of the files either, just summaries / notes /translations that were uploaded as they became available. Some are helpful, but not all are labelled as not being official documents.
Translations, translations and yet more translations.
It is also possible the translations were accurate enough.