Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Moderator on February 28, 2014, 06:51:46 PM
Title: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Mr Moderator on February 28, 2014, 06:51:46 PM
Bungled Jersey child abuse probe branded a '£20million shambles'
The bungled inquiry into allegations of child abuse and murder at a Jersey care home will cost taxpayers on the island at least £20million, a Mail on Sunday investigation reveals today.
Lenny Harper, the controversial detective who initially headed Operation Rectangle, also spent thousands of pounds of public money staying in four-star hotels and eating in some of London’s top restaurants.
His handling of the Haut de la Garenne children’s home probe has been described as a ‘shambles’ by Mick Gradwell, the detective drafted in to replace Harper.
The evidence of lavish expenses claims and extraordinary financial waste includes paying £93,000 to Martin Grime, the handler of the sniffer dog Eddie, who was charged with the grim task of finding children’s bodies that were supposedly entombed in concrete in the institution, known as ‘the Jersey House of Horrors’, which closed in 1986.
To date the ‘human remains’ that triggered the storm surrounding the case have turned out to be a piece of coconut shell.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 03:36:36 PM
• After being examined by experts from the British Museum, a fragment thought to have been from a skull turned out to be a piece of Victorian coconut shell.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 06, 2014, 03:37:51 PM
A human identified what he took to be a skull.
Eddie was tasked to test said (assumed!) skull, much as he was tasked to test the ignition card in PdL and reacted.
Said "skull" was examined in a laboratory and found to be a coconut.
The most you can say in defence of the dog is that there might have been some scent in the surrounds incidental to the coconut within Eddie's scent-range that he alerted to.
If so, that would be Grime's incompetence, because he should have had the dog screen the area before the coconut was tested for prior scents.
Is right, Vixie
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 06, 2014, 04:25:30 PM
Eddie was tasked to test said (assumed!) skull, much as he was tasked to test the ignition card in PdL and reacted.
Said "skull" was examined in a laboratory and found to be a coconut.
The most you can say in defence of the dog is that there might have been some scent in the surrounds incidental to the coconut within Eddie's scent-range that he alerted to.
If so, that would be Grime's incompetence, because he should have had the dog screen the area before the coconut was tested for prior scents.
Is right, Vixie
How does a piece of skull that someone said looks like a coconut turn into one? A child's skull containing 1.6% collagen. Collagen is found in mammals not in coconuts!
Eddie wasn't put in the boot! As soon as Eddie alerted to scent coming out of the car door Grime put Keela in the car.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 06, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
As we've discussed on other threads, he also reacted to sex clean-up tissues in Jersey, which Grime considered to be within his training parameters.
Eddie was not alerting to the semen on the tissues, he was alerting to blood on them, as was Keela. Both dogs alerted to the tissues at VT/9. As both dogs were deconditioned during training to alert to semen, urine and faeces, they were therefore alerting to blood.
'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.'
And
'V/T 9 Re-enforced concrete machine gun post and protective trench, personnel shelter attached. Earth and debris removed by hand and plant machinery to allow access.
The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results.
Positive indications confirmed as being recently deposited tissues used to clean up after sex by unknown persons. Offences not suspected at this stage. Retained as exhibit should there be future reports of offences. There will be no forensic submission at this stage.'
Eddie was trained as follows - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
'The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'
And Keela - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
'The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.'
Eddie and Keela were used in tandem as a failsafe method to eliminate any chance of false positives. Eddie's original training was to human blood and latterly and mostly to cadaver scent using pigs and human cadavers and Keela purely to detect human blood.
Ergo Eddie would be sent in first to a location as part of an investigation to check and if he alerted then Keela was sent in to see if she also alerted. If Keela also alerted then the alert was to blood as that is all that Keela is trained to detect. If she did not alert too then Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent.
In relation to the tissues found at VT/9 in HDLG both dogs alerted which means there was blood them, no matter how small it was and both dogs detected it as that is how they were trained. Both dogs alert = blood whereas Eddie on his own and no alert from Keela = cadaver scent. The tandem working of the dogs is what made them so reliable.
Martin's Rogatory statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm and the Op Rectangle Report http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html detail that all of the above is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 06, 2014, 04:57:05 PM
What is always ignored here is that bones were originally found in the location of the alleged 'coconut' by workmen who were laying the concrete but those bones were binned at the time. Those bones will have also have been in contact with said 'coconut' ergo Eddie was correct to alert to the location. Oh and PS coconut does not contain 1.6% collagen.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 06, 2014, 05:42:47 PM
How does a piece of skull that someone said looks like a coconut turn into one? A child's skull containing 1.6% collagen. Collagen is found in mammals not in coconuts!
Eddie wasn't put in the boot! As soon as Eddie alerted to scent coming out of the car door Grime put Keela in the car.
Collagen is a myth.
I can't find the exact quote from the official Wiltshire report.
But I know Carana knows where it is, because she was the one who first found it.
A technician of 30 years' experience worked with the "skull" and noted that it behaved exactly like wood. He was the one who determined, definitively, that the "skull" was actually a coconut.
Eddie alerted to a coconut.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: jassi on March 06, 2014, 05:44:21 PM
I can't find the exact quote from the official Wiltshire report.
But I know Carana knows where it is, because she was the one who first found it.
A technician of 30 years' experience worked with the "skull" and noted that it behaved exactly like wood. He was the one who determined, definitively, that the "skull" was actually a coconut.
Eddie alerted to a coconut.
So we are led to believe - frightfully convenient for all those Jersey senators @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 06, 2014, 05:51:44 PM
I can't find the exact quote from the official Wiltshire report.
But I know Carana knows where it is, because she was the one who first found it.
A technician of 30 years' experience worked with the "skull" and noted that it behaved exactly like wood. He was the one who determined, definitively, that the "skull" was actually a coconut.
Eddie alerted to a coconut.
You totally avoid the fact that bones were previously found in the exact same location, why is that? I doubt it was coconut but if it was, the following explantion makes perfect sense to me:
"Coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of HR material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited."
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 06, 2014, 05:54:26 PM
You totally avoid the fact that bones were previously found in the exact same location, why is that? I doubt it was coconut but if it was, the following explantion makes perfect sense to me:
"Coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of HR material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited."
Totally avoid?
The coconut was examined by a technician of vast experience and determined to be a coconut.
What relevance is there in what else might have been around?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 06, 2014, 05:57:27 PM
The coconut was examined by a technician of vast experience and determined to be a coconut.
What relevance is there in what else might have been around?
Oh dear, you really do not understand how the dogs work do you? Eddie alerted to a location where bones had previously lay and you ask what relevance there is?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 06, 2014, 06:02:15 PM
The coconut was examined by a technician of vast experience and determined to be a coconut.
What relevance is there in what else might have been around?
Repeating this as you avoided making any comment in regard to it :)
I doubt it was coconut but if it was, the following explantion makes perfect sense to me:
"Coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of HR material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited."
Surely the above makes some kind of sense to you if you still insist on believing it was a coconut given that the area the alleged coconut was found was where bones had previously been found?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 06, 2014, 07:28:13 PM
I can't find the exact quote from the official Wiltshire report.
But I know Carana knows where it is, because she was the one who first found it.
A technician of 30 years' experience worked with the "skull" and noted that it behaved exactly like wood. He was the one who determined, definitively, that the "skull" was actually a coconut.
Eddie alerted to a coconut.
Not sure what you're looking for, Ferryman (I'm just skim-reading).
Is it this?
From the Wiltshire report:
5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.
5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.
Eddie was not alerting to the semen on the tissues, he was alerting to blood on them, as was Keela. Both dogs alerted to the tissues at VT/9. As both dogs were deconditioned during training to alert to semen, urine and faeces, they were therefore alerting to blood.
'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.'
And
'V/T 9 Re-enforced concrete machine gun post and protective trench, personnel shelter attached. Earth and debris removed by hand and plant machinery to allow access.
The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results.
Positive indications confirmed as being recently deposited tissues used to clean up after sex by unknown persons. Offences not suspected at this stage. Retained as exhibit should there be future reports of offences. There will be no forensic submission at this stage.'
Eddie was trained as follows - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
'The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'
And Keela - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
'The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.'
Eddie and Keela were used in tandem as a failsafe method to eliminate any chance of false positives. Eddie's original training was to human blood and latterly and mostly to cadaver scent using pigs and human cadavers and Keela purely to detect human blood.
Ergo Eddie would be sent in first to a location as part of an investigation to check and if he alerted then Keela was sent in to see if she also alerted. If Keela also alerted then the alert was to blood as that is all that Keela is trained to detect. If she did not alert too then Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent.
In relation to the tissues found at VT/9 in HDLG both dogs alerted which means there was blood them, no matter how small it was and both dogs detected it as that is how they were trained. Both dogs alert = blood whereas Eddie on his own and no alert from Keela = cadaver scent. The tandem working of the dogs is what made them so reliable.
Martin's Rogatory statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm and the Op Rectangle Report http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html detail that all of the above is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire.
Where has it been stated that either dog was desensitised to other decomposing substances? I have no problem with Keela, as she trained solely on human blood, but Eddie's training - in the absence of any information to the contrary - seems to have been able to react to a wider spectrum.
Unless you have information to the contrary, I'm not aware of any recorded incident in which Keela was sent in before Eddie aside from the frankly bizarre clothes episode in the Lagos gym. If it is indeed normal practice for Eddie to be sent in to detect the "haystack" before sending in Keela to detect "the needle", then Eddie's reaction to the sex tissues would have occurred prior to Keela's. The point being, if that is the case, is that Grime had stated that the clean-up tissues were within Eddie's repertoire before Keela's reaction. If there is evidence to the contrary, then I'd be happy to read it and revise my understanding of the issue. If that is not what occurred, then the situation is not clear, IMO.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 06, 2014, 07:55:41 PM
Not sure what you're looking for, Ferryman (I'm just skim-reading).
Is it this?
From the Wiltshire report:
5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.
5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.
the States of Jersey Police for AMS radiocarbon dating. The sample was formally identified as bone, probably from the skullcap of an infant, by X , a forensic archaeologist working for the Jersey police. We received the sample from X (Forensic Services Manager, States of Jersey Police). 5.6.19 The sample was logged into the ORAU system in the usual manner and, as in all cases, a sample of bone powder was drilled from the underside of the specimen using a tungsten carbide drill. The powder weighed 440 mg. The technician performing this procedure noted that the material did not behave as bone ordinarily would and did not have the texture that normal bone exhibits. The technician has a great deal of experience in the sampling of bone (almost 30 years). Because of this uncertainty, and as a precaution, a small amount of the sample was combusted to measure the % nitrogen remaining. % N is a good correlate for protein, which is dominated in bone by collagen, and the measurement of nitrogen offers a simple test concerning whether the sample is dateable or not. Low % N means that the material is essentially un-dateable using radiocarbon.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 07:58:48 PM
Well, seeing as its groundhog day again
Lenny Harper should know what was going on HE was the investigating officer
Listen to him here from 6.00 and the fable of the coconut! And other disgusting goings in in ths case!
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 06, 2014, 08:24:27 PM
Where has it been stated that either dog was desensitised to other decomposing substances? I have no problem with Keela, as she trained solely on human blood, but Eddie's training - in the absence of any information to the contrary - seems to have been able to react to a wider spectrum.
Unless you have information to the contrary, I'm not aware of any recorded incident in which Keela was sent in before Eddie aside from the frankly bizarre clothes episode in the Lagos gym. If it is indeed normal practice for Eddie to be sent in to detect the "haystack" before sending in Keela to detect "the needle", then Eddie's reaction to the sex tissues would have occurred prior to Keela's. The point being, if that is the case, is that Grime had stated that the clean-up tissues were within Eddie's repertoire before Keela's reaction. If there is evidence to the contrary, then I'd be happy to read it and revise my understanding of the issue. If that is not what occurred, then the situation is not clear, IMO.
Eddie was trained on human blood and later cadaver scent and Keela purely to human blood. Martin himself told me that both dogs were deconditioned to urine, semen and faeces when I asked him about the alerts to the tissues. By all means email him at his company and ask the question yourself and he will confirm this.
"specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue."
Eddie was an E.V.R.D (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and was way more than just a cadaver dog and was teamed with Keela as a failsafe method of being able to differentiate between blood and cadaver scent alerts. The tandem teaming would have been pointless if they had not both been deconditioned to anything other than cadaver scent and blood, wouldn't it? They both would have been alerting all over the place!
From Martin's statement:
"The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and locate human remains or Human blood."
The tasking for Operation Rectangle was the same for Operation Task as defined above.
The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results in Jersey.
Having trained Eddie, Martin will have been confident to state that the alert to the tissue by Eddie was within his repetoire because he will have been aware that it would only have been either blood or cadaver scent that he was alerting to. Keela's alert also will have confirmed for him that it was blood as she was not trained to alert to cadaver scent and having trained them both he knew that neither of them would ever alert to urine, faeces or semen.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 06, 2014, 08:37:26 PM
Martin himself told me that both dogs were deconditioned to urine, semen and faeces ...
You don't need to decondition a dog to anything.
You need to condition a dog to stuff.
You do that by training.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 06, 2014, 08:40:52 PM
Eddie was trained on human blood and later cadaver scent and Keela purely to human blood. Martin himself told me that both dogs were deconditioned to urine, semen and faeces when I asked him about the alerts to the tissues. By all means email him at his company and ask the question yourself and he will confirm this.
"specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue."
Eddie was an E.V.R.D (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and was way more than just a cadaver dog and was teamed with Keela as a failsafe method of being able to differentiate between blood and cadaver scent alerts. The tandem teaming would have been pointless if they had not both been deconditioned to anything other than cadaver scent and blood, wouldn't it? They both would have been alerting all over the place!
From Martin's statement:
"The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and locate human remains or Human blood."
The tasking for Operation Rectangle was the same for Operation Task as defined above.
The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results in Jersey.
Having trained Eddie, Martin will have been confident to state that the alert to the tissue by Eddie was within his repetoire because he will have been aware that it would only have been either blood or cadaver scent that he was alerting to. Keela's alert also will have confirmed for him that it was blood as she was not trained to alert to cadaver scent and having trained them both he knew that neither of them would ever alert to urine, faeces or semen.
It seems that you don't understand the role of the dogs as defined by grime...
Their purpose outlined in red...the dogs did not secure evidence...did not locate human remains but did locate blodd...belonging to Gerry McCann...a complete failure to find any evidence
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 08:56:52 PM
'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.'
And
'V/T 9 Re-enforced concrete machine gun post and protective trench, personnel shelter attached. Earth and debris removed by hand and plant machinery to allow access.
The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results.
Positive indications confirmed as being recently deposited tissues used to clean up after sex by unknown persons. Offences not suspected at this stage. Retained as exhibit should there be future reports of offences. There will be no forensic submission at this stage.'
Eddie was trained as follows - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
'The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'
And Keela - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
'The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.'
Eddie and Keela were used in tandem as a failsafe method to eliminate any chance of false positives. Eddie's original training was to human blood and latterly and mostly to cadaver scent using pigs and human cadavers and Keela purely to detect human blood.
Ergo Eddie would be sent in first to a location as aprt of an investigation to check and if he alerted then Keela was sent in to see if she also alerted. If Keela also alerted then the alert was to blood as that is all that Keela is trained to detect. If she did not alert too then Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent.
In relation to the tissues found at VT/9 in HDLG both dogs alerted which means there was blood them, no matter how small it was and both dogs detected it as that is how they were trained. Both dogs alert = blood whereas Eddie on his own and no alert from Keela = cadaver scent. The tandem working of the dogs is what made them so reliable.
Martin's Rogatory statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm and the Op Rectangle Report http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html detail that all of the above is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 12:18:40 PM
Hope this helps Anne :) This is what I posted last night
Oh thank you, Serendipity, I read your very interesting posts of last night, luckily not deleted. My question was for Carana who insists that Eddie reacted to sex tissues. I can't find a mention of them in the McCann Files
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 07, 2014, 12:23:19 PM
Oh thank you, Serendipity, I read your very interesting posts of last night, luckily not deleted. My question was for Carana who insists that Eddie reacted to sex tissues. I can't find a mention of them in the McCann Files
Ah sorry for jumping in Anne :) I hadn't realised Carana has said that Eddie had alerted to sex tissues in PDL. I look forward to their response as I too have never seen anything in the PJ files about such an alert
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Estuarine on March 07, 2014, 12:24:20 PM
Oh no! not another woofer thread. This site has turned into bleedin' Crufts. The dog saga is a bit like an opera [if any here are familiar] the basic story can be told in about 30 seconds.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 07, 2014, 01:08:50 PM
Oh dear, you really do not understand how the dogs work do you? Eddie alerted to a location where bones had previously lay and you ask what relevance there is?
You need to re-read my post.
If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area before testing the coconut to eliminate prior scents.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 07, 2014, 01:10:35 PM
If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area before testing the coconut to eliminate prior scents.
Eddie didn't alert to 'coconut' He alerted to cadaver scent. As I explained last night, he alerted to an area of ground where bones had been previously found by workman before laying concrete. Those bones had been binned but the gound that once contained them would still have been an area of interest to Eddie. So he alerted as we know and when the area was examined an object was found which was thought to be part of a childs skull but which later magically turned into a piece of coconut. Now I personally do not beleive that it was coconut but if it was, the following makes perfect sense to me, as it also should to you.
'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 07, 2014, 01:26:33 PM
Eddie didn't alert to 'coconut' He alerted to cadaver scent. As I explained last night, he alerted to an area of ground where bones had been previously found by workman before laying concrete. Those bones had been binned but the gound that once contained them would still have been an area of interest to Eddie. So he alerted as we know and when the area was examined an object was found which was thought to be part of a childs skull but which later magically turned into a piece of coconut. Now I personally do not beleive that it was coconut but if it was, the following makes perfect sense to me, as it also should to you.
'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Estuarine on March 07, 2014, 01:29:28 PM
Oh thank you, Serendipity, I read your very interesting posts of last night, luckily not deleted. My question was for Carana who insists that Eddie reacted to sex tissues. I can't find a mention of them in the McCann Files
I had said "in Jersey".
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 04:42:22 PM
Ah sorry for jumping in Anne :) I hadn't realised Carana has said that Eddie had alerted to sex tissues in PDL. I look forward to their response as I too have never seen anything in the PJ files about such an alert
I hadn't.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3504.msg135029#msg135029 As we've discussed on other threads, he also reacted to sex clean-up tissues in Jersey, which Grime considered to be within his training parameters.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 04:49:15 PM
Eddie didn't alert to 'coconut' He alerted to cadaver scent. As I explained last night, he alerted to an area of ground where bones had been previously found by workman before laying concrete. Those bones had been binned but the gound that once contained them would still have been an area of interest to Eddie. So he alerted as we know and when the area was examined an object was found which was thought to be part of a childs skull but which later magically turned into a piece of coconut. Now I personally do not beleive that it was coconut but if it was, the following makes perfect sense to me, as it also should to you.
'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'
I have never thought that Eddie actually reacted to the coconut, but to some scent on or near it. It was the humans who made the mistake, and it was compounded by the mistake of announcing the "discovery" to the press before the tests were completed.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 04:54:55 PM
Thanks for that Red, it makes for interesting, if rather disturbing, reading
The shameful story of this monstrous place appears to have been 'lost' in another of those soul destroying high level cover-ups
Why are sub human paedophiles protected in this way ?
There were two investigations:
- One into child abuse, and a number were prosecuted when there was sufficient evidence (a few others had died, and for some there was insufficient evidence).
- The other was the investigation into potential murders, which seemingly didn't happen.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 07, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
- One into child abuse, and a number were prosecuted when there was sufficient evidence (a few others had died, and for some there was insufficient evidence).
- The other was the investigation into potential murders, which seemingly didn't happen.
I would agree with that conclusion.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 07, 2014, 05:13:26 PM
- One into child abuse, and a number were prosecuted when there was sufficient evidence (a few others had died, and for some there was insufficient evidence).
- The other was the investigation into potential murders, which seemingly didn't happen.
"which seemingly didn't happen" ?
That's enough for you is it ?
There is a possibility ( as indicated by the bones found by the builders and the cadaver dog's alert ) that children suffered such levels of abuse that they died as a result .... and the little bodies of those, who would never even be missed, thrown into an incinerator like garbage
Why, in God's name, anyone would make a point of rejecting that appalling possibility ( when it exists ) is quite beyond me
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 07, 2014, 05:23:34 PM
There is a possibility ( as indicated by the bones found by the builders and the cadaver dog's alert ) that children suffered such levels of abuse that they died as a result .... and the little bodies of those, who would never even be missed, thrown into an incinerator like garbage
Why, in God's name, anyone would make a point of rejecting that appalling possibility ( when it exists ) is quite beyond me
According to police report they were animal bones and the bones that may have been human dated from several hundred years ago...the police believe that no children were murdered
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 05:31:31 PM
There is a possibility ( as indicated by the bones found by the builders and the cadaver dog's alert ) that children suffered such levels of abuse that they died as a result .... and the little bodies of those, who would never even be missed, thrown into an incinerator like garbage
Why, in God's name, anyone would make a point of rejecting that appalling possibility ( when it exists ) is quite beyond me
The independent inquiry didn't find any evidence to substantiate that any children had been murdered. I've no reason to suspect that Wiltshire police were attempting to cover up homicide in Jersey.
There is a possibility ( as indicated by the bones found by the builders and the cadaver dog's alert ) that children suffered such levels of abuse that they died as a result .... and the little bodies of those, who would never even be missed, thrown into an incinerator like garbage
Why, in God's name, anyone would make a point of rejecting that appalling possibility ( when it exists ) is quite beyond me
It's like the use of the Joana case to discredit Mr Amaral. Who would post about le Haut de la Garenne if Eddie and Mr Grime hadn't gone there ?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 07, 2014, 05:33:50 PM
According to police report they were animal bones and the bones that may have been human dated from several hundred years ago...the police believe that no children were murdered
Well the policeman linked to by Red, above, who was in charge of the case ( later 'removed' ) didn't believe that
Anyway, this is such a distressing subject that I don't actually want to converse about it with those who are content that a cover-up occurred
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 07, 2014, 05:35:46 PM
There is a possibility ( as indicated by the bones found by the builders and the cadaver dog's alert ) that children suffered such levels of abuse that they died as a result .... and the little bodies of those, who would never even be missed, thrown into an incinerator like garbage
Why, in God's name, anyone would make a point of rejecting that appalling possibility ( when it exists ) is quite beyond me
That some can be so dismissive of such possibilities purely because there is a connection to the McCann case via the dogs absolutely sickens me. Had such an alert been made by another dog belonging to another handler they would be shouting from the rooftops for there to an enquiry into what happened in HDLG.
Thankfully there IS going to be one and I for one am very glad about that.
21 October 2013 Last updated at 06:13
Jersey abuse inquiry may be led by Frances Oldham
UK lawyer Frances Oldham has been nominated to lead the investigation into historical child abuse in Jersey.
A selection panel, led by Greffier Michael de la Haye, has chosen Mrs Oldham to replace Sally Bradley, who became unavailable due to ill health.
If her appointment is approved by the island's government she will chair the £6m committee of inquiry.
It will investigate allegations of abuse in children's homes and fostering services from 1960 to the present day.
Mr de la Haye said: "The selection panel is convinced that [Mrs Oldham] has exactly the right combination of empathy and firmness to chair the inquiry successfully in a totally independent and objective way."
'Establish what happened' Mrs Oldham, a deputy high court judge, has 36 years experience of family and criminal law matters.
She said: "I am keen to ensure that the inquiry starts in early 2014.
"I am determined to run the inquiry in a way that will encourage all those who want to come forward to speak to us to do so.
"It is essential that the inquiry is able to establish exactly what happened in the care system in Jersey during the period covered by our terms of reference and I will ensure that everything possible is done to achieve that aim."
Mr de la Haye said the panel would work with her to appoint the other two committee members, whose positions also need to be approved by the States.
The panel's aim is to complete them by the end of this month for the States to assess in December.
Well the policeman linked to by Red, above, who was in charge of the case ( later 'removed' ) didn't believe that
Anyway, this is such a distressing subject that I don't actually want to converse about it with those who are content that a cover-up occurred
I'm not convinced that a cover up for murder did occur, unless you meant the opposite.
There was an interview with Harper explaining his position after he'd been taken off the case. I'm not sure that I could find it now... but it was along the lines of admitting mistakes but asking people to put themselves in his position at the time.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 07, 2014, 07:11:22 PM
Eddie didn't alert to 'coconut' He alerted to cadaver scent. As I explained last night, he alerted to an area of ground where bones had been previously found by workman before laying concrete. Those bones had been binned but the gound that once contained them would still have been an area of interest to Eddie. So he alerted as we know and when the area was examined an object was found which was thought to be part of a childs skull but which later magically turned into a piece of coconut. Now I personally do not beleive that it was coconut but if it was, the following makes perfect sense to me, as it also should to you.
'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'
If Grime had done his job properly, Eddie would have tested the coconut shell in an area free of pre-exisiting odours.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 07, 2014, 07:48:17 PM
If Grime had done his job properly, Eddie would have tested the coconut shell in an area free of pre-exisiting odours.
It was only after Eddie alerted to the area in question that Martin was informed that bones had previously been found and binned by workmen before the concrete was laid in that area It was only when the area was dug that the woman scientist whose name evades me right now spotted the 'coconut' and picked it up and examined it.
I fail to see how you can accuse Martin of not doing his job properly.
As I said, I have my doubts about it being coconut but can you tell why you do not understand that it is the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.
I repeat for clarification purposes:
'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 07, 2014, 07:57:20 PM
It was only after Eddie alerted to the area in question that Martin was informed that bones had previously been found and binned by workmen before the concrete was laid in that area It was only when the area was dug that the woman scientist whose name evades me right now spotted the 'coconut' and picked it up and examined it.
I fail to see how you can accuse Martin of not doing his job properly.
As I said, I have my doubts about it being coconut but can you tell why you do not understand that it is the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.
I repeat for clarification purposes:
'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'
What Martin was, or was not, informed of is irrelevant.
If he had done his job properly, he would have had the dog screen the area of the test for prior scents before tasking the dog to test the coconut shell.
If Grime did not do that, he was incompetent.
If Grime did do it, then Eddie reacted to a coconut shell.
The evidence of PdL tends to suggest that there was no prior screening.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Serendipity on March 07, 2014, 08:04:29 PM
What Martin was, or was not, informed of is irrelevant.
If he had done his job properly, he would have had the dog screen the area of the test for prior scents before tasking the dog to test the coconut shell.
If Grime did not do that, he was incompetent.
If Grime did do it, then Eddie reacted to a coconut shell.
The evidence of PdL tends to suggest that there was no prior screening.
As someone said to me earlier today 'it's like plaiting fog' with you lot lol
What part of the 'coconut' or whatevber it was was not even found until AFTER Eddie alerted and AFTER the ground was dug up do you not get?
And what part of it's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited do you not get?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 09:31:34 PM
That some can be so dismissive of such possibilities purely because there is a connection to the McCann case via the dogs absolutely sickens me. Had such an alert been made by another dog belonging to another handler they would be shouting from the rooftops for there to an enquiry into what happened in HDLG.
Thankfully there IS going to be one and I for one am very glad about that.
21 October 2013 Last updated at 06:13
Jersey abuse inquiry may be led by Frances Oldham
UK lawyer Frances Oldham has been nominated to lead the investigation into historical child abuse in Jersey.
A selection panel, led by Greffier Michael de la Haye, has chosen Mrs Oldham to replace Sally Bradley, who became unavailable due to ill health.
If her appointment is approved by the island's government she will chair the £6m committee of inquiry.
It will investigate allegations of abuse in children's homes and fostering services from 1960 to the present day.
Mr de la Haye said: "The selection panel is convinced that [Mrs Oldham] has exactly the right combination of empathy and firmness to chair the inquiry successfully in a totally independent and objective way."
'Establish what happened' Mrs Oldham, a deputy high court judge, has 36 years experience of family and criminal law matters.
She said: "I am keen to ensure that the inquiry starts in early 2014.
"I am determined to run the inquiry in a way that will encourage all those who want to come forward to speak to us to do so.
"It is essential that the inquiry is able to establish exactly what happened in the care system in Jersey during the period covered by our terms of reference and I will ensure that everything possible is done to achieve that aim."
Mr de la Haye said the panel would work with her to appoint the other two committee members, whose positions also need to be approved by the States.
The panel's aim is to complete them by the end of this month for the States to assess in December.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on March 09, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
The EVRD was deployed in a wide area screening sweep of the site. The following alert indications were forthcoming:
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert. There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2014, 09:57:55 PM
the police dont seem to think there were any deaths
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 01:26:14 PM
the police dont seem to think there were any deaths
The independent Wiltshire inquiry didn't find any evidence of suspicious deaths during the timeframe under investigation.
I haven't found the final terms of reference of the latest inquiry, but it seems to be along the lines of a truth and reconciliation attempt, both for those involved and how to examine the past issues of child care theory and practice to move forward.
If new information comes to light, there may presumably be new investigations opened, but that doesn't seem to be the primary aim.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Admin on March 13, 2014, 01:29:09 PM
The independent Wiltshire inquiry didn't find any evidence of suspicious deaths during the timeframe under investigation.
I haven't found the final terms of reference of the latest inquiry, but it seems to be along the lines of a truth and reconciliation attempt, both for those involved and how to examine the past issues of child care theory and practice to move forward.
If new information comes to light, there may presumably be new investigations opened, but that doesn't seem to be the primary aim.
A coconut shell and a few baby teeth. No human remains have ever been found.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 01:39:01 PM
A coconut shell and a few baby teeth. No human remains have ever been found.
There were a couple of human bones (besides teeth), apparently, but nothing related to the timeframe of the investigation. This must be on a thread somewhere...
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 15, 2015, 10:45:22 AM
Home News & appeals 2008 Press conference notes from Operation Rectangle update
Press conference notes from Operation Rectangle update
Press Release : Operation Rectangle
The States of Jersey Police have today issued the following press statement in order to clarify matters relating to Haut de la Garenne and to provide an update in relation to the wider child abuse enquiry.
In February this year, the States of Jersey Police commenced a search at Haut de la Garenne. This search resulted in the recovery of a considerable number of forensic finds.
In the weeks that followed, the enquiry was the centre of considerable media coverage and became a matter of serious public concern. Statements which were issued by the States of Jersey Police suggested that serious criminal offences had been perpetrated against children and also that there was a possibility that children may have been murdered, bodies had been disposed of and buried within the home.
The States of Jersey Police are now making a clear distinction between the forensic finds at Haut de La Garenne and the investigation into offences of Historic Child Abuse. It is emphasised however that the States of Jersey Police continue to investigate offences of abuse against children which occurred within the child care system in Jersey over several decades.
The States of Jersey Police wish to make it absolutely clear that central to the investigation, are the complainants and witnesses who have come forward and provide statements to the Enquiry Team. We are clear in our absolute commitment to the full and thorough investigation of the complaints which have been made with the aim of uncovering the truth and bringing anyone responsible for offending to justice.
It is also essential, however, to ensure that the facts are reported properly.
An assessment of the evidence available has revealed that the forensic recoveries do not indicate that there have been murders of children or other people at Haut de la Garenne. Nor is it believed that the evidence indicates that bodies have been destroyed, buried or hidden at Haut de la Garenne.
Should any further evidence come to light, this will be assessed, and whatever action is necessary will be taken.
The Deputy Chief Officer, David Warcup, stated:
"It is unfortunate that we now believe that the information which was put into the public domain by the States of Jersey Police about certain ˜finds' at Haut de la Garenne was inaccurate, and we regret this.
With regard to the particular evidence which has been highlighted in the media, the States of Jersey Police are clear that these do not support suggestions that there have been murders at Haut de la Garenne. In particular;
A Piece of Child's Skull
An anthropologist made an initial identification as this item being a piece of child's skull. At 10:45 am the SIO made a decision to release information to the press about the find. At 2pm the same day a press conference disclosed this item as the finding of the potential remains of a child. This item was lying within earth that is now identified as being Victorian era. On the 31st March 2008 Dr Higham from the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit stated he believed the item was not bone. The original anthropologist reviewed her initial identification and on 14th April 2008 had stated she no longer identified it as part of a skull. Dr Higham and Dr Jacobi (of the British Museum faunal specialist) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood. They went further stating it was more like a part of a seed casing like a small piece of coconut. The conclusions are therefore that the sample is a) Not bone and b) Not human. The States of Jersey Police satisfied that having liaised with the anthropologist and Dr Higham and other experts, that this item is not human and was found in a Victorian context.
˜Shackles' and ˜Restraints':
The item referred to as ˜Shackles' was found in rubble on the ground floor of HDLG on 28th February. These are in fact rusty pieces of metal. There is no witness evidence or intelligence which indicates these should be described as shackles or that shackles resembling this description have been used during the commission of any offences.
The item called a ˜restraint' was found amongst general debris in an under floor area. However, there is no evidence or intelligence indicating this is anything suspicious.
The Bath and blood stains:
This bath in the under floor voids has no water supply and has not been used as a bath since the 1920's when a brick pillar was constructed within it. During the search a specialist search dog reacted to the bath and a presumptive test indicated positive for blood in a minute area of the bath. Following detailed forensic microscopic examination no blood has been found. There is nothing suspicious about the bath and no indication this bath has been used in the commission of any offences.
The Cellars
These are floor voids. They are not cellars, and it is impossible for a grown person to stand up straight in the floor voids under Haut de la Garenne.
Teeth
There are 65 teeth found in the floor voids and 1 elsewhere. They are milk teeth coming from at least 10 people - up to a maximum of 65 people. Around 45 of the teeth originate from children aged 9 to 12 yrs and 20 from the range 6 to 8 years. There is wear on some of the teeth; these teeth generally have the appearance of being shed naturally.
It is possible for more tests to be done on the teeth to clarify age and other factors.
Bones
170 pieces of bone which are mainly animal were found in the area of HDLG which was searched. Many more pieces of bone were found in the area of the grounds, all of which are animal.
Of all that material, there are 3 fragments which are ˜possibly' human; the biggest piece is 25 mm long. 2 fragments date 1470 to 1650 and the other 1650 to 1950 These have not definitely been identified as human bone. Taking in all this information, this is an unexplained find if it is human, but not necessarily suspicious.
The Pits
These were dug in the late 1970s and are unexplained, but nothing suspicious has been found in either of them.
In summary;
No people are reported missing There are no allegations of murder There are no suspects for murder There is no specific time period for murder. We are satisfied that there is no indication or evidence that there have been murders at HDLG.
The Deputy Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police, David Warcup stated, "I continue to have every confidence in the detectives and investigators who are currently working on the historical abuse enquiry. The have worked extremely hard in their search for the truth and to bring offenders to justice.
"This investigation has clearly had an impact on the very committed men and women who work for the States of Jersey Police and I am grateful to them for their hard work, dedication and commitment during recent months in helping to ensure that the people of Jersey receive a good service from their local force.
"I also wish to make comment concerning the relationship between Crown Officers working with the enquiry and the States of Jersey Police. Much has been reported which suggested that lawyers do not work directly with investigating officers. The fact is that lawyers do work with investigators on serious and complex enquiries, I can absolutely reassure the public that the relationship between the police and lawyers is a positive one and I have seen absolutely no evidence whats"ver which would support any assertion that they should not have been directly involved in the enquiry. Indeed I would suggest that excluding lawyers has resulted in delays to the investigative process.
The Historic Abuse enquiry will continue to be led by Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who stated.
"I would wish to emphasise that we are not questioning the fact that historically serious offences have been committed against children. There will however not be the number of court cases or prosecutions which were originally reported.
"I have every confidence in the investigation team who are committed to bringing offenders to justice.
There is no bile in my post. Just great scepticism about a retired Police Officer who was feathering his own nest.
South Yorkshire Police refused to renew his contract because he was grandstanding with a dog that wasn't fit for purpose. They knew what Eddie was worth.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:10:45 PM
There is no bile in my post. Just great scepticism about a retired Police Officer who was feathering his own nest.
South Yorkshire Police refused to renew his contract because he was grandstanding with a dog that wasn't fit for purpose. They knew what Eddie was worth.
Libel as well...
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on August 15, 2015, 02:13:42 PM
Ah! What I've just posted on Amaral and the dogs is, perhaps, better suited up here:
3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days. 3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated. In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of DCO HARPER. 3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’. 3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search. This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To Page 116 of 383
Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’. DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks. Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the matter further. 3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate. Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'. 3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again, Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the investigation. 3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was not justified’.
Operation Rectangle
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 15, 2015, 04:35:17 PM
This is an interesting document (IMO). There's quite a lot concerning Grime's services, especially as of p. 36 of the document (p. 40 of the pdf).
Operation Rectangle Review of the Efficient and Effective Use of Resources Report to the Home Affairs Minister, Home Affairs Department, States of Jersey. BDO Alto May 2010
Does anyone know when the last time was Eddie found anything that was used in court
Eddie was used in the Theresa Parker missing person case for the FBI straight after the McCann searches. He alerted in their garage and the body was found years later.
14 September 2007 Chattanooga Times/Free Press Chloe Morrison
The investigation into the disappearance of Walker County 911 dispatcher Theresa Parker is a "high-priority" case, FBI agents said Thursday, and authorities unveiled tools to be used in the search.
Martin Grime, a 30-year veteran of military and civil police work in the United Kingdom and developer of a K-9 forensic program, has been asked to help in the investigation, along with his dog, Eddie. They are assisting the FBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigation and Walker County Sheriff's Department in narrowing leads.
"Hopefully we will find Theresa Parker," Mr. Grime said. "Hopefully we will find evidence. Hopefully all the information we claim will give us a line of inquiry and it just saves conducting 50 lines of inquiry."
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Anna on August 16, 2015, 12:44:24 PM
Scent Evidence - Human Scent as Trace Evidence - Scent Evidence, Human Scent, Trace Evidence, Scent Collection, Scent Transfer Unit, collection of articles and commentary.  
Dog Debate At Center Of Murder Case Can a dog's nose be trusted enough to send a man to prison for the rest of his life? That's a key question a jury may have to consider if Walker County Superior Court Judge Jon Wood allows certain testimony to be heard during the murder trial of Sam Parker next month. Judge Wood is holding a pre-trial motions hearing this week to decide what the jury will and won't hear. Parker, a former sergeant with the LaFayette Police Department, is being held without bond accused of murdering his wife Teresa. She seemingly vanished more than two years ago leaving behind a family and career with Walker County 911. There is no evidence she has died, a body was never found and investigators have not found a murder weapon. During a second day of testimony about so-called cadaver dogs, two specialists in that field explained how their dogs "hit" on a scent in Walker County that they say could be from a decomposing human body. Lisa Higgins with the Louisiana Search & Rescue Dog Team said she was asked and paid to bring her Australian Shepherd "Maggie" to LaFayette to investigate a car being kept at the Walker County Sheriff's Department impound lot. "Almost immediately I gave the command and she hit really hard, worked very, very hard inside the wheel well on the front driver's side and gave a full indication right there," Higgins said. Higgins added Maggie also got excited about something when she sniffed around the back door on the passenger side of the car. But there is no evidence about what it was that excited Maggie and investigators so far have said they have not found any evidence to corroborate the dog's "hit." Higgins said Maggie has been trained to sniff out the scent of a decomposing human body. But Maggie and other similar dogs can also "hit" on a decomposing pig, which testimony shows has the same odor and chemical make-up as a human cadaver. Defense attorney Doug Woodruff asked Higgins about the accuracy of Maggie's nose and if there is any scientific proof that shows these type of dogs only get aroused by cadavers. "Scientifically, no," Higgins replied. Upon further cross examination Higgins said Maggie has only shown accuracy on occasions when other physical evidence points to where a body has been dumped. We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom. Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance. During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage. "He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said. Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago. During lengthy cross-examination Grime said there is no evidence to show Eddie smelled anything incriminating against or linked to Mr. Parker. Like Higgins,Grime said cadaver dogs can only prove useful when there is other evidence that corroborates the dog's "hits." The FBI has a keen interest in the outcome of this case. If Parker is convicted the case could pave the legal way for future prosecutions where there is no evidence other than dog "hits" in connection with a person accused of murder. Toward the end of the day Judge Wood learned that while Grime has international acclaim he has never testified as an expert witness in the United States. Testimony ended Tuesday with a couple Georgia Bureau of Investigation agents saying Mr. Parker has always been cooperative with the investigation and allowed them to do whatever they wanted on his property. A third day of testimony begins at 9:00 a.m. Wednesday.
Eddie was used in the Theresa Parker missing person case for the FBI straight after the McCann searches. He alerted in their garage and the body was found years later.
14 September 2007 Chattanooga Times/Free Press Chloe Morrison
The investigation into the disappearance of Walker County 911 dispatcher Theresa Parker is a "high-priority" case, FBI agents said Thursday, and authorities unveiled tools to be used in the search.
Martin Grime, a 30-year veteran of military and civil police work in the United Kingdom and developer of a K-9 forensic program, has been asked to help in the investigation, along with his dog, Eddie. They are assisting the FBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigation and Walker County Sheriff's Department in narrowing leads.
"Hopefully we will find Theresa Parker," Mr. Grime said. "Hopefully we will find evidence. Hopefully all the information we claim will give us a line of inquiry and it just saves conducting 50 lines of inquiry."
is that it...it would be interesting to see all his deployments so we could form a proper opinion
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 16, 2015, 12:56:15 PM
Thanks. Maybe poor forensic recovery rather than false alert.
Possibly, but he somehow may have also become assigned as the deputy forensic science manager (to confirm as this isn't clear). If so, I'm not quite sure how that happened as he wasn't qualified for that function...
Possibly, but he somehow also became assigned as the deputy forensic science manager. I'm not quite sure how that happened as he wasn't qualified for that function...
According to the official inquiry it was at the behest of the SIO who according to the inquiries findings was lacking in "current training". snip>>>>> 2.6 Telling factors were also DCO HARPER’s lack of current training and experience as an SIO and his near imperviousness to self-doubt. These deficiencies and traits, combined with the emotive nature of child abuse itself linked to the suspicion of collusion and cover-up by echelons of the State, provided the platform for DCO HARPER to pursue his own agenda irrespective of the true merit of the evidence available to him. We highlight that these salient factors were compounded by CO POWER’s apparent reluctance to impose robust supervision, his sense of loyalty to and sometimes admiration for, his Deputy, and CO POWER’s own distrust of the political establishment. <<<<< snip.
then: snip>>>>> 3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated. In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of DCO HARPER.
The question is: Did Harper, and by default Power, use Grime's information improperly to push their own agenda or did The States of Jersey Police allow a gash hand subcontractor to run the whole show? The answer is in the inquiry by Wiltshire Police but I guess some will not like the answer.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 16, 2015, 01:56:40 PM
According to the official inquiry it was at the behest of the SIO who according to the inquiries findings was lacking in "current training". snip>>>>> 2.6 Telling factors were also DCO HARPER’s lack of current training and experience as an SIO and his near imperviousness to self-doubt. These deficiencies and traits, combined with the emotive nature of child abuse itself linked to the suspicion of collusion and cover-up by echelons of the State, provided the platform for DCO HARPER to pursue his own agenda irrespective of the true merit of the evidence available to him. We highlight that these salient factors were compounded by CO POWER’s apparent reluctance to impose robust supervision, his sense of loyalty to and sometimes admiration for, his Deputy, and CO POWER’s own distrust of the political establishment. <<<<< snip.
then: snip>>>>> 3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated. In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of DCO HARPER.
The question is: Did Harper, and by default Power, use Grime's information improperly to push their own agenda or did The States of Jersey Police allow a gash hand subcontractor to run the whole show? The answer is in the inquiry by Wiltshire Police but I guess some will not like the answer.
Thanks, Alice. I was going cross-eyed trying to check the various documents.
I'm not sure about the answer to your question. Half a dozen of one and 50% of the other, I expect.
From the BDO financial document, his services in terms of dog handling certainly didn't account for all his time there.
From Grime's point of view, if I had been asked to stay on and help out with other interesting tasks in return for a nice room in a 4 star hotel and a susbtantial amount of assured income having just become self-employed, I probably wouldn't have refused, either.
On the other hand.... in the circumstances, particularly in view of his primary function as dog handler, becoming deputy forensic science manager wasn't the most objective function that he could have been assigned to.
I do think that there are a number of issues concerning Grime that are less than limpid, but I don't find him to be the only one. It's fairly understandable that someone starting out as a freelancer will want publicity, but he does seem to have had a knack of getting himself involved in high-profile headless chicken investigations.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: mercury on August 16, 2015, 08:23:35 PM
Quote from: mercury on Today at 01:11:55 AM eddie didn't react to fruit and veg Alf! What did he react to then? Tell me exactly what it was.
I was typing "Eddie doesn't react to fruit and vegetables" but changed it to "didn't" seeing as he is now dead. It was a general comment abut his training/alerts not this case in particular, but it still applies.
No, I have no idea what the reason was. I am not even sure why a cadaver dog was used if no one claimed any unnatural deaths/murders took place there.But they must have done I suppose.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2015, 12:25:23 AM
Eddie was used in the Theresa Parker missing person case for the FBI straight after the McCann searches. He alerted in their garage and the body was found years later.
14 September 2007 Chattanooga Times/Free Press Chloe Morrison
The investigation into the disappearance of Walker County 911 dispatcher Theresa Parker is a "high-priority" case, FBI agents said Thursday, and authorities unveiled tools to be used in the search.
Martin Grime, a 30-year veteran of military and civil police work in the United Kingdom and developer of a K-9 forensic program, has been asked to help in the investigation, along with his dog, Eddie. They are assisting the FBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigation and Walker County Sheriff's Department in narrowing leads.
"Hopefully we will find Theresa Parker," Mr. Grime said. "Hopefully we will find evidence. Hopefully all the information we claim will give us a line of inquiry and it just saves conducting 50 lines of inquiry."
We've already done this one pathfinder ... Eddie's alert didn't advance the case against Mr Parker one iota.
So what? She was killed by her husband and transported in a vehicle kept in the garage. Her body was in their garage where Eddie immediately alerted.
During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.
"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He said that, after Theresa Parker's friend reported to police that she was worried about Theresa in March 2007, two Walker County sheriff's deputies found an empty house and looked inside the Parkers' garage when they weren't allowed.
On the left side of the garage, they found Sam's LaFayette Police Department vehicle. On the right side, where Theresa's Toyota 4Runner should have sat, they found nothing. They also found Sam Parker's truck outside the garage, and days later they found the 4Runner back in its place -- though no one ever saw Theresa again.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 11:49:25 PM
Brietta is of the school that even if some one is guilty it doesn't matter as the dogs cant advance a case on their own, which I suppose is fair per se, you need more evidence than circumstantial
maybe Im confusing them with Davel though, not sure
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 07:55:28 AM
Quote from: mercury on Today at 01:11:55 AM eddie didn't react to fruit and veg Alf! What did he react to then? Tell me exactly what it was.
I was typing "Eddie doesn't react to fruit and vegetables" but changed it to "didn't" seeing as he is now dead. It was a general comment abut his training/alerts not this case in particular, but it still applies.
No, I have no idea what the reason was. I am not even sure why a cadaver dog was used if no one claimed any unnatural deaths/murders took place there.But they must have done I suppose.
A few unreliable mutterings, but there was no record of any kid having disappeared.
Builders had found a few bones, but they were animal.
Then came Eddie and the Coconut...
The main witness behind Harper's decision to begin the search for bodies was a woman with a known history of psychotic fantasy and alcoholism. She named children she said she had seen jumping to their deaths from Haut de la Garenne windows and hanging from trees in the garden, where she said she also found a severed hand. None of these claims were true.
(...)
At first, Rectangle was a low-key affair and attracted only local publicity. By February 2008, Harper's team had received some claims about possible murders at Haut de la Garenne, a children's home for 86 years until it closed in 1986. But they were far from reliable.
Besides the statements by the psychotic woman, the police had been told by a Jersey lawyer that one of his clients had claimed children had been killed there. However, Rectangle detectives had already interviewed this man and he had said nothing about murders.
It was true that in 2003 builders at Haut de la Garenne had found bones, but they were from animals. Moreover, there had never been a single contemporary report of a child going missing.
Gradwell said: 'Even children in care have families, friends and teachers, none of whom had ever reported a disappearance. Lenny has said one of his problems was the Jersey records were patchy and incomplete, so it was hard to be sure who had actually been there. In fact, they were excellent and very detailed.'
Mail on Sunday (Davisd Rose) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html#ixzz3j4x0NKwx
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 07:49:26 PM
A few unreliable mutterings, but there was no record of any kid having disappeared.
Builders had found a few bones, but they were animal.
Then came Eddie and the Coconut...
The main witness behind Harper's decision to begin the search for bodies was a woman with a known history of psychotic fantasy and alcoholism. She named children she said she had seen jumping to their deaths from Haut de la Garenne windows and hanging from trees in the garden, where she said she also found a severed hand. None of these claims were true.
(...)
At first, Rectangle was a low-key affair and attracted only local publicity. By February 2008, Harper's team had received some claims about possible murders at Haut de la Garenne, a children's home for 86 years until it closed in 1986. But they were far from reliable.
Besides the statements by the psychotic woman, the police had been told by a Jersey lawyer that one of his clients had claimed children had been killed there. However, Rectangle detectives had already interviewed this man and he had said nothing about murders.
It was true that in 2003 builders at Haut de la Garenne had found bones, but they were from animals. Moreover, there had never been a single contemporary report of a child going missing.
Gradwell said: 'Even children in care have families, friends and teachers, none of whom had ever reported a disappearance. Lenny has said one of his problems was the Jersey records were patchy and incomplete, so it was hard to be sure who had actually been there. In fact, they were excellent and very detailed.'
Mail on Sunday (Davisd Rose) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html#ixzz3j4x0NKwx
Is that the 'few unreliable mutterings' of victims of child abuse. ?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 07:50:11 PM
Thanks. Seems to be a case of he said, she said, the police said...enough said Mr Rose.
A Victorian home run for a hundred years and no deaths or mysterious disappearances? Even nunneries have murder and other scandals that have come to light eventually. Did you ever find out what all those teeth were doing in the cellars? 65 IIRC.
PS Do you know why it was closed down eventually?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 08:02:28 PM
Is that the 'few unreliable mutterings' of victims of child abuse. ?
No, Stephen. I was talking about the mutterings of murder, for which there has been no evidence.
The child abuse, whether sexual, physical or psychological, is a separate issue. And there is yet another independent inquiry trying to get to the bottom of the general child care concerns underway now (well, suspended for summer recess, but to resume in September).
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 08:07:39 PM
No, Stephen. I was talking about the mutterings of murder, for which there has been no evidence.
The child abuse, whether sexual, physical or psychological, is a separate issue. And there is yet another independent inquiry trying to get to the bottom of the general child care concerns underway now (well, suspended for summer recess, but to resume in September).
I suggest you keep an eye von the inquiry in regards to the Jersey home.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 08:15:18 PM
Thanks. Seems to be a case of he said, she said, the police said...enough said Mr Rose.
A Victorian home run for a hundred years and no deaths or mysterious disappearances? Even nunneries have murder and other scandals that have come to light eventually. Did you ever find out what all those teeth were doing in the cellars? 65 IIRC.
PS Do you know why it was closed down eventually?
There were no contemporaneous records of unexplained disappearances (which I assume to mean within the scope of the timeframe of alleged murders).
No, I haven't the faintest idea why teeth were kept. One story (uncorroborated and possibly from a dodgy article) was that a dentist had once worked there.
The place was closed down in 1986. I'd have to check back as to why. Unfit for purpose, I expect.
ETA: Some parts of it seem to have continued to be in use for children after 1986, for various reasons.
The abuse scandal didn't just concern HdlG - there were several "homes" in Jersey. The current inquiry is examining what went on in all of them from wartime (or post-war) onwards.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 08:32:37 PM
Thanks. Will have to do a bit of research as I know very little of the case and history.
The dentist ! Well, there would be some "logical explanation" for kids' teeth strewn around in a cellar I suppose!!
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 08:55:38 PM
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 09:00:13 PM
Pamela's story
I was drugged, beaten and sexually abused ..what went on there was cruel, sadistic, evil
A woman who spent her early teens at the Jersey children's home yesterday told how she used to be drugged, beaten and sexually abused there.
Mum-of-two Pamela, now 49, spoke out after it emerged that ankle shackles, stocks and canes had been found at Haut de la Garenne, once home to 1,000 vulnerable children.
Pamela said that every night staff pulled cowering children from their beds and battered and raped them. She added: "The things that happened there are indescribable, the most cruel, sadistic and evil acts you could think of."
She said staff were "predators". They would throw parties and invite outsiders. Pamela recalls: "We would try and lie still in our beds and not attract attention. They came and got kids and took them away for a while. Rape was rife in all ages, both boys and girls."
The teenagers would get cigarettes and booze from staff in exchange for sex.
Pamela was regularly locked naked in a 10ft sq punishment cell for days for end. She was groped and beaten by a frightening 6ft man she believes was the home's deputy head, now dead. She said: "He was always sweaty and smelt of beer.
He would touch me sexually. He would slam me against a wall and say things like 'you're developing into a nice little woman, aren't you?'"
Male and female staff would abuse the children, grabbing their breasts or privates or spitting on them.
Kids were encouraged to rape each other. Pamela said: What makes it worse is these acts were practiced on vulnerable and often troubled children with nowhere to go and nobody to turn to."
Pamela, who still lives in Jersey, has scars from where she cut herself in the hope it would end her torment.
She added: "I have blurry memories that still disturb me. I was stripped and male staff put their hands between my legs and held my breasts."
The staff took their favourites alone to beauty spots. One lad, Paul Fossey, was befriended by a priest.
Pamela recalls: "He came to the home and told Paul he'd teach him to swim. They'd go out all day. But something happened. Paul changed. He became moody. He was never the same." He died from a heroin overdose five years ago.
Children would disappear and staff would say they had gone to a family or emigrated. No one would hear from them again. Pamela said: "If you kept asking where they had gone they would get angry. You kept your head down."
Pamela blew the whistle in 1974 but no one listened. A year later she was moved to a psychiatric unit and left when she was 16. Yesterday a card left with flowers at the local church read: "We children of Haut de la Garenne have waited a long time. We knew one day someone would listen."
Did you live or work at the home? Call the newsdesk on 0800 282591 or email us at mirrornews@mirror.co.uk
Torture left me terrified to go to bed
Union worker Peter Hannaford, who grew up at the home, said he was abused almost every night.
Peter, 59, said: "I was scared to go to bed. The abuse was anything from rape to torture.
"It was men and women who abused us. It was dark so you would never know who it was."
Peter, who spent the first 12 years of his life at Haut de la Garenne, added: "You were threatened with punishment if you said anything, which could be a whip or anything." He said it has traumatised him and called for the building to be flattened. He added: "When all this came out it really tore me apart and brought back a hell of memories. You would be sleeping then your arms would be held down... Most of the time it was the other kids, encouraged by the staff. It was all the time, it was every night."
Fear made me twice try suicide
Married businessman John tried to kill himself after being sexually assaulted and beaten.
He spent two years of hell at the home in the mid-1960s from the age of 12.
John, 54, said: "It was just one long nightmare.
"I was frightened to death most of the time."
He tried to escape and attempted suicide twice.
He recalls being made to bathe with male friends every night.
John added: "After drying ourselves, we were all made to stand in a line, naked," he said.
Then predatory male staff would move on them. "He would walk along, inspecting our genitals, touching us.
"If any of us flinched, or tried to cover up, he would hit us across our privates with his stick.
My escape in leap out of window
Cyril Turner, 48, had been at the home for two weeks in the early 1970s when, as a 13-year-old, he jumped from a second-floor window to escape the regime of violence and fear.
He said: "Some kids you saw again and some you wouldn't - we never really knew what happened to them.
"We were told a lot of them had run off and emigrated, which looking back was a bit odd.
"We were quite often given dead arms and dead legs by the staff.
"I remember being frog-marched around the place.
"If you were bad, you would get locked in a dark room with just bread and water.
"A lot of the staff there would be very physical - kids were thrown round a lot."
PF That harrowing tale tells alot more. Carana, presumably this isn't David Rose's "psychotic lying woman"!
If not, he failed as a journalist ignoring (or misreporting) any of that seeing as his article was dated over a year later
No, it doesn't seem to be the psychotic woman.
I've read through all the accounts in the link I gave (you have to keep clicking "load more" to get to the start). There are loads of accounts ranging from the types of sexual abuse mentioned above to various forms of corporal or other punishment (which would be considered abuse today, but was probably considered within the bounds of "discipline" at the time). Some witnesses / victims were heard in private and it's not always clear if a summary of those was provided to the journalists or not.
None mention suspicious disappearances or murder (unless they are part of the private hearings and are under investigation).
There is this, though, which may account for what that lady was saying:
12:14 pm, Wed 14 Jan 2015
Staff shortages and a high turnover of short term admissions at Haut de la Garenne care home are being brought into question at Jersey's Independent Care Inquiry today.
(...)
Described as the islands most accessible residential resource, there was a very high turnover of admissions. Sixty-five per cent of children left within two weeks.
The report read that using the facility for a great deal of short term care and long term residents is easily conflicting and highly unsatisfactory.
It noted, 'long stay children have a less than fair deal' and described them as a group who have 'emotional needs that are not being met', which 'must deepen the frustration of the child'.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 20, 2015, 10:12:58 AM
On 6th December 2010, the former Chief Minister, Senator T.A. Le Sueur, made the following apology –
“On behalf of the Island’s government, I acknowledge that the care system that operated historically in the Island of Jersey failed some children in the States’ residential care in a serious way. Such abuse has been confirmed by the criminal cases that have been before Jersey’s courts. To all those who suffered abuse, whether confirmed by criminal conviction or not, the Island’s government offers its unreserved apology.”
In making that apology, the States of Jersey acknowledged failings in the Island’s historical residential care system identified during the States of Jersey Police investigation, ‘Operation Rectangle’. Operation Rectangle identified a total of 533 alleged offences reported and recorded between September 2007 and December 2010. Of these, 315 were reported as being committed at Haut de la Garenne children’s home. Eight people were prosecuted for 145 offences, and 7 convictions were secured.
Police identified 151 named offenders and 192 victims. As a consequence, on 9th March 2012, the Council of Ministers agreed the details of a Historic Abuse Redress Scheme for those who were in the States of Jersey’s full-time residential care between 9th May 1945 and 31st December 1994.
Detailed discussions with claimants’ lawyers concluded that individuals concerned would prefer to settle matters, if possible, outside of public and adversarial court proceedings. Under the Scheme, which began in April 2012, claimants provided the relevant details and the Scheme lawyers assessed each claim. http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/AssemblyPropositions/2015/P.20-2015.pdf
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 07:12:46 PM
On 6th December 2010, the former Chief Minister, Senator T.A. Le Sueur, made the following apology –
“On behalf of the Island’s government, I acknowledge that the care system that operated historically in the Island of Jersey failed some children in the States’ residential care in a serious way. Such abuse has been confirmed by the criminal cases that have been before Jersey’s courts. To all those who suffered abuse, whether confirmed by criminal conviction or not, the Island’s government offers its unreserved apology.”
In making that apology, the States of Jersey acknowledged failings in the Island’s historical residential care system identified during the States of Jersey Police investigation, ‘Operation Rectangle’. Operation Rectangle identified a total of 533 alleged offences reported and recorded between September 2007 and December 2010. Of these, 315 were reported as being committed at Haut de la Garenne children’s home. Eight people were prosecuted for 145 offences, and 7 convictions were secured.
Police identified 151 named offenders and 192 victims. As a consequence, on 9th March 2012, the Council of Ministers agreed the details of a Historic Abuse Redress Scheme for those who were in the States of Jersey’s full-time residential care between 9th May 1945 and 31st December 1994.
Detailed discussions with claimants’ lawyers concluded that individuals concerned would prefer to settle matters, if possible, outside of public and adversarial court proceedings. Under the Scheme, which began in April 2012, claimants provided the relevant details and the Scheme lawyers assessed each claim. http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/AssemblyPropositions/2015/P.20-2015.pdf
There's the nub.
Proper redress for actual victims, but no murder most foul.
So remind me, what was that barking by Eddie all about?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 08:02:11 PM
I've read through all the accounts in the link I gave (you have to keep clicking "load more" to get to the start). There are loads of accounts ranging from the types of sexual abuse mentioned above to various forms of corporal or other punishment (which would be considered abuse today, but was probably considered within the bounds of "discipline" at the time). Some witnesses / victims were heard in private and it's not always clear if a summary of those was provided to the journalists or not.
None mention suspicious disappearances or murder (unless they are part of the private hearings and are under investigation).
There is this, though, which may account for what that lady was saying:
12:14 pm, Wed 14 Jan 2015
Staff shortages and a high turnover of short term admissions at Haut de la Garenne care home are being brought into question at Jersey's Independent Care Inquiry today.
(...)
Described as the islands most accessible residential resource, there was a very high turnover of admissions. Sixty-five per cent of children left within two weeks.
The report read that using the facility for a great deal of short term care and long term residents is easily conflicting and highly unsatisfactory.
It noted, 'long stay children have a less than fair deal' and described them as a group who have 'emotional needs that are not being met', which 'must deepen the frustration of the child'.
It sounds as if no one really knows and/or there was a cover up. I doubt any police force would use cadaver dogs if they didn't think it necessary.
There are most certainly failings in terms of child care / protection.
At one end, there would seem to be a few untrained but goodhearted people who were doing their best and, at the other extreme, child predators and general sadists, with everything in between.
I don't find it reasonable for any police force to simply dismiss rumours of suspicious disappearances or descriptions of potential murders. On the other hand, thorough desk research of records and cross-referencing witness statements (including the credibility of each), and the history of the place might have eliminated the need to gut the place.
At the moment (and I still have more reading to do), I get the impression that there may well have been a cover-up of some of the abuse. Some of that could turn out to be deliberately covering up for sexual or harsh physical abuse, and / or, concerning physical abuse, a dismissive (ultraconservative) attitude to child welfare and discipline.
In one or two of the accounts in the itv updates, the children's accounts of sexual abuse were acted upon - but only to dismiss the adult in question. One at least then went on to abuse at least one other child. In one case, it was the victim's father who didn't want the head of the home to involve the police for some reason, perhaps simply to protect the child's privacy... no idea.
I do hope that this inquiry will help to bring closure to the victims. It's expected to carry on for another year, so time will tell.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 08:25:05 PM
Proper redress for actual victims, but no murder most foul.
So remind me, what was that barking by Eddie all about?
Two well-known cocktails: Piña Colada and Sex on the Beach (minus the piña and the beach).
Aside from that, 165 teeth and a substantial quantity of bones, three of which may "possibly" have been human (according to the SoJP update that I've posted somewhere here, but were prior to the timeframe of the murder inquiry).
There may be a bit more, I'll have another rummage.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 08:29:48 PM
and the accounts of former children who were there ....
Yes indeed, and also the allegations about the alledged visits by a PM( who had a yacht) and Jimmy Saville- Saville known as a prolific sex abuser,necrophiliac, and sadistic b........, according to some.
The children who vanished may have been murdered but may not have been buried on the island. The investigation may well be in its infancy and joining up with other investigations in the UK. A powerful group of people seem to be getting their come uppance..shame some are dead already!
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2015, 12:09:01 AM
Yes indeed, and also the allegations about the alledged visits by a PM( who had a yacht) and Jimmy Saville- Saville known as a prolific sex abuser,necrophiliac, and sadistic b........, according to some.
The children who vanished may have been murdered but may not have been buried on the island. The investigation may well be in its infancy and joining up with other investigations in the UK. A powerful group of people seem to be getting their come uppance..shame some are dead already!
I am with you here Mistaken.
Illegally several years ago, someone showed me the Operation Ore list. I was staggered at the top names on that list. Many big names from the political parties [and the Lords IIRC ]. I never made note of the names, but they were shockingly familiar in many cases.
For those that dont know what Operation Ore was, it was based on Operation Avalanche in the US.
It has been a long time ago, but I think that they monitored an American Paedophile website named Landslide and gathered the names and email addies of people who logged in; ?maybe paid for access, am no longer sure about that.
They gathered hundreds and hundreds of names .... but as so often is the case, it seems from glancing at more recent reports that powerful people managed to get the list kept secret and enquiries closed down. I wonder if undue pressure was put on the police?
Powerful people, the very rich and influential, seem to be untouchables.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 10:35:27 AM
Yes indeed, and also the allegations about the alledged visits by a PM( who had a yacht) and Jimmy Saville- Saville known as a prolific sex abuser,necrophiliac, and sadistic b........, according to some.
The children who vanished may have been murdered but may not have been buried on the island. The investigation may well be in its infancy and joining up with other investigations in the UK. A powerful group of people seem to be getting their come uppance..shame some are dead already!
It doesn't appear as if anyone "vanished" though, at least not while in the "care" of the HdlG home.
In summary:
No people are reported missing There are no allegations of murder There are no suspects for murder There is no specific time period for murder. We are satisfied that there is no indication or evidence that there have been murders at HDLG. http://www.jersey.police.uk/news-appeals/2008/november/press-conference-notes-from-operation-rectangle-update/
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 26, 2015, 06:32:08 PM
It doesn't appear as if anyone "vanished" though, at least not while in the "care" of the HdlG home.
In summary:
No people are reported missing There are no allegations of murder There are no suspects for murder There is no specific time period for murder. We are satisfied that there is no indication or evidence that there have been murders at HDLG. http://www.jersey.police.uk/news-appeals/2008/november/press-conference-notes-from-operation-rectangle-update/
Well the summary seems to be in order to relinquish blame now doesn't it on first glance... but then let's take a closer look and break down some 'stuff'.
No people are reported missing No people have been reported missing because the children were orphans- no one was keeping track and no one cared. There are no allegations of murder Who is going to make allegations without some weighted suspicion or evidence? There are no suspects for murder Why would there be suspects of a crime that has not been reported fgs ( actually smirked at that one) There is no specific time period for murder. What does this mean exactly? more waffle We are satisfied that there is no indication or evidence that there have been murders at HDLG being satisfied that they may have let abusive and murderous behaviour go un noticed/not investigated/un punished.
Lifting their skirts and running to them there hills.... sounds like it.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 07:35:18 PM
Well the summary seems to be in order to relinquish blame now doesn't it on first glance... but then let's take a closer look and break down some 'stuff'.
No people are reported missing No people have been reported missing because the children were orphans- no one was keeping track and no one cared. There are no allegations of murder Who is going to make allegations without some weighted suspicion or evidence? There are no suspects for murder Why would there be suspects of a crime that has not been reported fgs ( actually smirked at that one) There is no specific time period for murder. What does this mean exactly? more waffle We are satisfied that there is no indication or evidence that there have been murders at HDLG being satisfied that they may have let abusive and murderous behaviour go un noticed/not investigated/un punished.
Lifting their skirts and running to them there hills.... sounds like it.
If you read up 65% of the kids at HdlG were there for temporary 2-week stays: respite care appears in some of the documentation; others were longer-term residents.
This current inquiry is quite large: the scope goes back to 1945. One of the accounts concerns a boy who was there even earlier but was still there at the end of the war.
Some, during the timescale under investigation, would have been war orphans, others were from poor families for other reasons who couldn't afford to keep them at home, although many went home to family at weekends (unless they got into trouble). There were quite a few illegitimate children born out of affairs arising from the occupation, and some of those may have ended up in one of these homes.
Many of these children were vulnerable for all sorts of reasons and I have no reason to doubt that sexual and physical abuse did indeed occur (whether by staff, people connected to staff, visitors, or even older juvenile residents).
However... so far, I still haven't found anything to substantiate that anyone vanished in mysterious circumstances while there, nor was murdered there.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 26, 2015, 07:49:12 PM
If you read up 65% of the kids at HdlG were there for temporary 2-week stays: respite care appears in some of the documentation; others were longer-term residents.
This current inquiry is quite large: the scope goes back to 1945. One of the accounts concerns a boy who was there even earlier but was still there at the end of the war.
Some, during the timescale under investigation, would have been war orphans, others were from poor families for other reasons who couldn't afford to keep them at home, although many went home to family at weekends (unless they got into trouble). There were quite a few illegitimate children born out of affairs arising from the occupation, and some of those may have ended up in one of these homes.
Many of these children were vulnerable for all sorts of reasons and I have no reason to doubt that sexual and physical abuse did indeed occur (whether by staff, people connected to staff, visitors, or even older juvenile residents).
However... so far, I still haven't found anything to substantiate that anyone vanished in mysterious circumstances while there, nor was murdered there.
And unless you have access to accurate data you will not find any. let us say for example child B was an orphan moved from someplace else for what ever reason... he disappears- questions are asked about his where abouts and they are told the child was claimed by a lost know relative- moved on to another place... these were not recorded properly infact you would be shocked to know that even in this day and age this goes on and social services never report publically about children who get abused or go missing whilst in their 'books'. all hush hush.
Thank goodness people now feel it easier to report these crimes. and police now take them seriously!
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 08:54:45 PM
And unless you have access to accurate data you will not find any. let us say for example child B was an orphan moved from someplace else for what ever reason... he disappears- questions are asked about his where abouts and they are told the child was claimed by a lost know relative- moved on to another place... these were not recorded properly infact you would be shocked to know that even in this day and age this goes on and social services never report publically about children who get abused or go missing whilst in their 'books'. all hush hush.
Thank goodness people now feel it easier to report these crimes. and police now take them seriously!
Possible... but this case is 9 years on and still no formal murder investigation, despite the enormous sums involved in digging up HdlG.
There seems to be a lot of aggro behind the scenes, some of it possibly due to clashes of personality. One of the next phases in the current inquiry will examine the role of the police and possibly other authorities, and I suspect that the officers who took over from Harper and Power, and those in other positions of officialdom, will be in for a share of criticism as well.
I don't find it inconceivable that one or more children may have disappeared as records can be forged, mistakes made. If ever any children were murdered or left to die and had been forgotten, I really hope that the truth will come to light, even if those responsible have since died or can't be found. At least a little plaque somewhere could mark their lives and serve as a reminder.
So far, however, I can't find any evidence of murder at HdlG.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: mercury on August 26, 2015, 10:53:25 PM
Possible... but this case is 9 years on and still no formal murder investigation, despite the enormous sums involved in digging up HdlG.
There seems to be a lot of aggro behind the scenes, some of it possibly due to clashes of personality. One of the next phases in the current inquiry will examine the role of the police and possibly other authorities, and I suspect that the officers who took over from Harper and Power, and those in other positions of officialdom, will be in for a share of criticism as well.
I don't find it inconceivable that one or more children may have disappeared as records can be forged, mistakes made. If ever any children were murdered or left to die and had been forgotten, I really hope that the truth will come to light, even if those responsible have since died or can't be found. At least a little plaque somewhere could mark their lives and serve as a reminder.
So far, however, I can't find any evidence of murder at HdlG.
Don't you think it is feasible that the care home may have covered up any murders or disappearances? I mean, if they were lax and allowed in the so called beast of painsnal or whatever his name was?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 27, 2015, 09:28:10 AM
Don't you think it is feasible that the care home may have covered up any murders or disappearances? I mean, if they were lax and allowed in the so called beast of painsnal or whatever his name was?
Beast? there were beasts? I need more info.
Carana, here we are back at this 'evidence' thing. Just because there is no evidence does not mean crimes were not committed. 20mil is nothing.. public sevrants know how to blow and waste money it is the only thing they are good at! still working out cheaper than Maddie case- one child.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 27, 2015, 11:33:56 AM
Don't you think it is feasible that the care home may have covered up any murders or disappearances? I mean, if they were lax and allowed in the so called beast of painsnal or whatever his name was?
No idea. That awful person had connections to a different "home" and even he didn't actually kill anyone. Could he, or some other creep, have had access to HdlG? Possibly, but there's still no evidence that anyone within the timeframe was murdered while in "care".
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
No idea. That awful person had connections to a different "home" and even he didn't actually kill anyone. Could he, or some other creep, have had access to HdlG? Possibly, but there's still no evidence that anyone within the timeframe was murdered while in "care".
I think the starting point in any murder investigation would be
a body - body parts - enough blood to indicate that a life must have been extinguished
a report of a missing person or persons
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 27, 2015, 12:52:31 PM
Yes indeed, and also the allegations about the alledged visits by a PM( who had a yacht) and Jimmy Saville- Saville known as a prolific sex abuser,necrophiliac, and sadistic b........, according to some.
The children who vanished may have been murdered but may not have been buried on the island. The investigation may well be in its infancy and joining up with other investigations in the UK. A powerful group of people seem to be getting their come uppance..shame some are dead already!
So you think Ted Heath took children onto his yacht, to abuse them.
How do you think that worked?
You do realise that Heath had two close protection officers with him at all times, and that Morning Cloud is a racing yacht, with a crew of seven?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 27, 2015, 02:18:17 PM
So you think Ted Heath took children onto his yacht, to abuse them.
How do you think that worked?
You do realise that Heath had two close protection officers with him at all times, and that Morning Cloud is a racing yacht, with a crew of seven?
I have not accused Ted Heath of anything so stop trying to re write my posts. I used the word alledged! The Yacht was his means of access to Jersey and any ocean on planet earth. He may or may not have been involved with child abuse. I do not claim to know.
Protection Officers... lol there are many people walking on this planet knowing secrets and not telling them. Just saying...
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 27, 2015, 06:37:46 PM
I have not accused Ted Heath of anything so stop trying to re write my posts. I used the word alledged! The Yacht was his means of access to Jersey and any ocean on planet earth. He may or may not have been involved with child abuse. I do not claim to know.
Protection Officers... lol there are many people walking on this planet knowing secrets and not telling them. Just saying...
The Ted Heath Jersey allegations don't seem very credible to me at the moment...
For one thing, "early 70s" is rather vague, and the story changes as to who counted the children. And why did either of them count them in the first place?
As JP pointed out, the boat would have needed crew and he was apparently surrounded by protection officers (particularly as PM in the "early 70s").
"Someone" on "some" yacht molesting a child is feasible... but presumably Heath's boat wasn't the only one.
Just as there could be political shenanigans covering up for abuse, there could also be some dropping unsubstantiated insinuations...
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 02:21:30 AM
I think the starting point in any murder investigation would be
a body - body parts - enough blood to indicate that a life must have been extinguished
a report of a missing person or persons
Well, maybe u should send an email to the police and tell them not to do it again then IE spend 30 million on finding murder
Incompetent lot tut
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Benice on August 28, 2015, 09:16:43 AM
In the video we saw Eddie alerting in many places inside the building. Does anyone know whether Martin Grime's interpretation of those alerts - (i.e. cadaverscent or blood?) was ever published anywhere? Did he put Keela in after Eddie?
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 28, 2015, 11:29:10 AM
In the video we saw Eddie alerting in many places inside the building. Does anyone know whether Martin Grime's interpretation of those alerts - (i.e. cadaverscent or blood?) was ever published anywhere? Did he put Keela in after Eddie?
It's not always clear... One passage seems to me as if Eddie was put in after Keela, but in general it would seem to be the opposite.
Is that not exactly what the subsequent inquiry did following the Haute de la Garenne fiasco??
What? Spend 30 million? I have no idea. Why don't you remind us all why the investigation was a fiasco? ;its own is a much used word in cover ups as well as actual fiascos Did you read the link posted by Carana...harrowing reading....many unanswered questions.....of course if you think everything was a mistake, well, can't help you...you cannot say there is nothing of concern there...I hope the new investigation finds out exactly what they have been tasked to find out
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 02:14:31 AM
What? Spend 30 million? I have no idea. Why don't you remind us all why the investigation was a fiasco? ;its own is a much used word in cover ups as well as actual fiascos Did you read the link posted by Carana...harrowing reading....many unanswered questions.....of course if you think everything was a mistake, well, can't help you...you cannot say there is nothing of concern there...I hope the new investigation finds out exactly what they have been tasked to find out
If you require reminding why Haute de la Garenne was a fiasco you most certainly have not been paying attention.
Title: Re: The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.
Post by: Carana on August 29, 2015, 11:49:41 AM
The second paragraph appears to be the substance for checking for evidence of murder. The third one (resulting in the local advocate going to the police) appears to be the same person mentioned in the David Rose article: a guy who had previously been interviewed by the police and had never mentioned anything about murder.
One or two victims have stated to the inquiry that they were dragged from their beds, but obviously they weren't murder victims.
I would have thought that the police would have asked for the names of those who'd allegedly disappeared and tried to cross-reference them. I haven't come across any report stating that the police had been given specific names, which seems unusual.
I can understand the need to explore the allegations, but it comes across to me as Chinese whispers.
What's possible is that some people are conflating two memories: kids taken from their beds (but who returned) and the short-term residents who were only there for a couple of weeks. It's also possible that the media frenzy stating that the "remains" of x children had been found produced false memories.
If some poor kids had been murdered, there's no evidence that it happened at HdlG.
In April 2006 States of Jersey Police became concerned at the number of carers who were being accused of involvement in offences concerning the abuse of children. This was particularly highlighted when the commanding officer of the Jersey Sea Cadets was arrested for downloading pornographic images including some involving sea cadets. The attitude of the Sea Cadet authorities of that time caused great concern. Accordingly, police began to examine a number of previous cases and during this review were continually referred to abuse which had allegedly taken place at Haut de La Garenne. This covert phase of the enquiry went on until November 2007 when the investigation was made public. Because of the concerns of victims about any involvement of the Jersey caring agencies it was decided to seek the assistance of the NSPCC in London. Within a week seventy victims had come forward, most detailing abuse at HDLG.
Among the victims were a few who said that children had been dragged from their beds at night screaming and had then disappeared. Two others said they had knowledge of human remains at the location but were not specific. A local advocate also came to police and said he had a client who knew there were human remains buried at the home. The collation of numerous complaints of both sexual and violent abuse of children led to the decision being made to enter the home to carry out a screening search for human remains and evidence in support of the allegations of abuse. The advice and assistance of the NPIA in the deployment of UK specialists was secured.