UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 11:10:24 AM
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Yet again... please point me to wherever you have assumed that the sex tissues in Jersey that I mentioned were in the PJ files.
For ages you have been mentioning sex tissues in the MCCANN case that could explain Eddie's alerts in the 5A. Do you admit that it was just a suggestion and that no such tissue was found in the 5A ?
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For ages you have been mentioning sex tissues in the MCCANN case that could explain Eddie's alerts in the 5A. Do you admit that it was just a suggestion and that no such tissue was found in the 5A ?
I have suggested that Eddie may have reacted to odours which didn't involve a cadaver in 5a, particularly as the apartment was occupied by four different families and visited by miscellaneous other people between the disappearance and the dog inspection. I cited the Jersey tissues as an example of a recent odour that he could have been reacting to.
I have never stated that such tissues were found in 5A, so I don't understand your issue.
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I have never stated that such tissues were found in 5A, so I don't understand your issue.
I'm sure you'll understand that any suggestion of Eddie alerting to sex tissues in the 5A is groundless.
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I'm sure you'll understand that any suggestion of Eddie alerting to sex tissues in the 5A is groundless.
It's no more groundless than asserting that he was necessarily reacting to a cadaver.
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There is evidence though not legally admissible evidence.
according to grime the alerts have no evidential value
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I'm sure you'll understand that any suggestion of Eddie alerting to sex tissues in the 5A is groundless.
From Grime's statements, Eddie could smell airborne scents within his training parameters. However, he stated that Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood.
The occupants prior to the inspection had left a week before and was presumably locked up since then.
Could shoes, socks, a band-aid, or whatever, with a trace of blood on them have been left around by the previous occupants and a cleaner had removed the item prior to the actual inspection? Were those occupants ever interviewed? When did a cleaner last enter that apartment?
What would be incompatible with the dogs' reactions?
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There is evidence though not legally admissible evidence.
But if there is 'evidence', as you put it, that she died in 5A, then why have SY stated categorically that she may be alive?
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From Grime's statements, Eddie could smell airborne scents within his training parameters. However, he stated that Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood.
The occupants prior to the inspection had left a week before and was presumably locked up since then.
Could shoes, socks, a band-aid, or whatever, with a trace of blood on them have been left around by the previous occupants and a cleaner had removed the item prior to the actual inspection? Were those occupants ever interviewed? When did a cleaner last enter that apartment?
What would be incompatible with the dogs' reactions?
Very important question that ( and the others, Carana), and I am surprised it has not received more attention over the years.
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From Grime's statements, Eddie could smell airborne scents within his training parameters. However, he stated that Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood.
The occupants prior to the inspection had left a week before and was presumably locked up since then.
Could shoes, socks, a band-aid, or whatever, with a trace of blood on them have been left around by the previous occupants and a cleaner had removed the item prior to the actual inspection? Were those occupants ever interviewed? When did a cleaner last enter that apartment?
What would be incompatible with the dogs' reactions?
previous renter Mr Gordon who cut himself shaving and bled
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post3012.html#p3012
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Thanks Anna
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post3012.html#p3012
From the Statement of Saleigh Gordon.
During our stay Paul cut his face whilst shaving and the cut bled for some time . Neither the children nor I injured ourselves and as far as I know nobody died in the apartment. We never noticed that any of our personal objects disappeared or were lost. Nothing strange or worrying to note, just on one occasion I heard Paul speaking to an individual on the patio that looked over the complex’s swimming pool. I can’t say who he was talking to or what they were talking about. I was inside the apartment washing some of the children’s clothes in the kitchen that faced out onto the road. I did not see anyone pass in front of the window or knock on the door.
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previous renter Mr Gordon who cut himself shaving and bled
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post3012.html#p3012
Yes, thanks, Anna. I was wondering about the occupants nearer the time of the inspection (i.e., after the disappearance) in particular.
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The following is a statement from Paul Anthony Gordon, who stayed in apartment 5A with his family in April 2007 directly prior to its occupancy by the McCanns.
He also notes that he cut himself whilst shaving resulting in bleeding for 45 minutes.
He notes how he has been pursued by the press and others for information regarding the charity collector - bogus or otherwise - who visited the apartment asking him for money for an orphanage:
CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5)
Pages 36 to 38—Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon
Date 2008.04.24
Summarised translation:
Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Account
Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon
Occupation: Accountant
Date : 24th April 2008
I am married to Saleigh and we have two children, C...... aged three and J..... aged two.
We stayed in the same apartment that the McCanns would later stay in, apartment 5ª of the Ocean Club. We travelled to Faro on 21st April 2007.
On Wednesday the children were asleep in the apartment and Sal was reading inside. I was in the garden when I heard a male voice say “Ola”. I got up and went towards the man who asked me whether I was interested in making a donation to an orphanage. I talked to him and notice he had an ID label and what seemed to be a book of receipts. I thought he was either genuine or that it was a professional scam. I gave him 10 Euros and I think he gave me a receipt. At no time was he aggressive or persistent. I think he was genuine and it seemed to be a good cause.
There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal except that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. The cut bled for about 45 minutes. As far as I know, nobody else cut themselves in the apartment.
We felt safe in the apartment and were not robbed, neither did anything disappear. The doors, windows and shutters were in perfect working order. There was never any sign that that the doors, windows or shutters had been tampered with, but neither was there any need to check. The front door had a double lock that was difficult to lock, but we managed. The patio door could not be locked from the outside, only from the inside of the apartment and that is why we chose to use the front door when we left the apartment.
We used to open the shutters during the day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing them.
We would generally have breakfast in the Millenium restaurant, we only dined at the Tapas Bar on two occasions. I remember there was a limit to how many times we could eat at the Tapas Bar.
I would like to add that since January of this year I have received numerous phone calls, messages and visits from the press with relation to the man collecting donations, which led to contact with other persons such as Brian Kennedy, Kate and Gerry McCann. I feel this to be constricting and it is difficult for me to make a more certain decision.
I have always tried to collaborate with the police in every possible form, telephoning them at the first opportunity when the news broke about Madeleine’s disappearance. There have been times when I have felt like a pawn in a chess game.
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Can information held by this 'witness', or that of any of the guests who stayed in apartment 5A subsequent to the visit by family MaCann, help us in the investigation, either with regard to:
'Suspects' - such as the charity collector
Forensic investigations for blood or other human matter ?
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I doubt he sat in the bathroom for 45 mins, so it could account for the blood on the tile grout. and if he dropped the towel down the back of the sofa accidentally= dried blood
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Yes, thanks, Anna. I was wondering about the occupants nearer the time of the inspection (i.e., after the disappearance) in particular.
I don't believe it was relet
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As we are talking about the alerts of the dogs in 5a I think its important to note that Grime...the expert...has not claimed that there was a cadaver in 5a and that the alerts could be as a result of cross contamination from several different scenarios. It's not up to the McCanns or their supporters to prove why the dogs alerted...we will probably never know.
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I don't believe it was relet
I think it was Anna, but I cant remember the details. I think it was relet several times. I think there was controversy about it. Perhaps someone else can remember or find the details.
and ....PLs correct me if I am wrong
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Thanks Anna
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post3012.html#p3012
From the Statement of Saleigh Gordon.
During our stay Paul cut his face whilst shaving and the cut bled for some time . Neither the children nor I injured ourselves and as far as I know nobody died in the apartment. We never noticed that any of our personal objects disappeared or were lost. Nothing strange or worrying to note, just on one occasion I heard Paul speaking to an individual on the patio that looked over the complex’s swimming pool. I can’t say who he was talking to or what they were talking about. I was inside the apartment washing some of the children’s clothes in the kitchen that faced out onto the road. I did not see anyone pass in front of the window or knock on the door.
My pleasure
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From Grime's statements, Eddie could smell airborne scents within his training parameters. However, he stated that Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood.
The occupants prior to the inspection had left a week before and was presumably locked up since then.
Could shoes, socks, a band-aid, or whatever, with a trace of blood on them have been left around by the previous occupants and a cleaner had removed the item prior to the actual inspection? Were those occupants ever interviewed? When did a cleaner last enter that apartment?
What would be incompatible with the dogs' reactions?
Believe it, it's obvious, the best for Eddie alerting as soon as he could smell the air of the flat are VOCs. It took him 4 minutes to find the centre of the scent cone !
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I know I had details but cant find any right now. When the mccanns moved out, the reception booking ,was overwhelmed with Media personal wishing to rent it which they refused Of course and it was still a crime scene until the dogs came in.
Not sold: Still, two years after the apartment that Madeleine McCann disappeared from was offered for sale, it stands empty, without any new buyer. Photo: Paulo Duarte / AP Photo
The apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in 2007, stands empty and bleak.
STEFAN THORSTEINSEN
02 October 2010
(Dagbladet): The Algarve holiday apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in 2007 is like a "mausoleum", says one of its neighbours to the British Daily Mail.
The apartment in Praia da Luz was offered for sale over two years ago by the owner, but still it stands empty.
Madeleine was nearly four-years-old when she disappeared from the apartment while her parents were eating with friends at a nearby restaurant. One of the neighbours of the apartment says that it has not been used since the disappearance.
- "The shutters have stayed down and it is more like a mausoleum than the happy holiday letting it once was," the neighbour told the Daily Mail.
Meanwhile a new private investigation has started in Portugal which will try to find out what happened to Madeleine.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
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@)(++(*
He wasn't reacting to a cadaver, there was none, as he wasn't reacting to a sex tissue, there was none.
He reacted to VOCs released by a cadaver (whose cadaver ?) before being removed (Smithman ?) and stuck in porous materials of the bedroom.
BTW, what do you have against corpses ?
You are wrong anne...a cadaver does not have to have been present in the apt to cause the alerts
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I don't believe it was relet
There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.
ETA
- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
27 September 2007
2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details
TRANSLATION BY ALBYM & INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
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There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.
ETA
- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
27 September 2007
2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details
TRANSLATION BY ALBYM & INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
Were any of these occupants interviewed?
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I doubt he sat in the bathroom for 45 mins, so it could account for the blood on the tile grout. and if he dropped the towel down the back of the sofa accidentally= dried blood
The statement does say 45 minutes, but that seems awfully long. It might have been a mistake: 4-5 minutes would sound ver similar. Even so, 4-5 minutes would still be a long time to stand in one place.
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There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.
ETA
- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
27 September 2007
2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details
TRANSLATION BY ALBYM & INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
I stand corrected. I misunderstood your question.
I assumed you meant directly after the McCanns left, not five weeks later and goodness knows how many people would have been traipsing through in the meantime.
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The statement does say 45 minutes, but that seems awfully long. It might have been a mistake: 4-5 minutes would sound ver similar. Even so, 4-5 minutes would still be a long time to stand in one place.
Shaving cuts can go on for a while, that's why we used to see men walking about with bits of tissue on their faces also my sons @)(++(* Never seen it on my hubby...................he's got a beard
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Information from the occupants of 5B, 5D and 5H might also be useful , since the EVRD showed no interest in those apartments.
Perhaps there were no shaving related incidents.
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Information from the occupants of 5B, 5D and 5H might also be useful , since the EVRD showed no interest in those apartments.
Perhaps there were no shaving related incidents.
Or fishmongers.
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Information from the occupants of 5B, 5D and 5H might also be useful , since the EVRD showed no interest in those apartments.
Perhaps there were no shaving related incidents.
Or had been aired more recently if they hadn't been locked up for a week or so.
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Information from the occupants of 5B, 5D and 5H might also be useful , since the EVRD showed no interest in those apartments.
Perhaps there were no shaving related incidents.
Just a very quick whizz in and out in those apartments IIRC, but a prolonged stay in 5A.... little doubt with frequent prompts
Just like the cars. Almost all the time was spent calling the dog back to the Mccanns car and tapping bits.
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Just a very quick whizz in and out in those apartments IIRC, but a prolonged stay in 5A.... little doubt with frequent prompts
Just like the cars. Almost all the time was spent calling the dog back to the Mccanns car and tapping bits.
Apparently, the dog`s behaviour changed early on with regard to 5A.
From Mr Grime`s report........ http://www.mccannfiles.com/
"My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment."
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Apparently, the dog`s behaviour changed early on with regard to 5A.
From Mr Grime`s report........ http://www.mccannfiles.com/
"My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment."
Funny that SY think nothing of that , doncha think?
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There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection.
- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
Were any of these occupants interviewed?
One would assume that SY will have managed to be in contact with the family who are friends of the owner (McCann!) in Liverpool.
Surely information from these visitors - positive or negative - could be extremely important in addressing some of the forensic questions we have.
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Funny that SY think nothing of that , doncha think?
I`m just adding to the topic with a pertinent point from Mr Grime`s report..........
We don`t really know what SY will conclude eventually.
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Did you notice the continual calling back of the dog when Grime was checking the cars ? Or did you miss it?
Mr Grime`s deployment of the dogs is raised every time a doggie thread crops up, rendering the thread pointless.
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Mr Grime`s deployment of the dogs is raised every time a doggie thread crops up, rendering the thread pointless.
Well it is true init?
What is wrong with telling any new readers?
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Did you notice the continual calling back of the dog when Grime was checking the cars ? Or did you miss it?
This is amateur gossip Sadie.
How long would it have taken the American police to find those videos? About five minutes, and obviously they think his work was nothing other than professional. So should you.
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Well it is true init?
What is wrong with telling any new readers?
It could be misinformation on your part, because there has been no official enquiry or report regarding this issue.
All you appear to be doing is forcing your view, which is of no more value than anyone elses.
I`ll leave you to it.
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This is amateur gossip Sadie.
How long would it have taken the American police to find those videos? About five minutes, and obviously they think his work was nothing other than professional. So should you.
I have never said anything to the contrary. I have just commented about the time taken to keep calling the dog back to the Mccann car.
Maybe had it been called back to another car, then it would have marked there too.
Maybe Grime was stopped after the dog marked at The Mccann car. and perhaps he would have spent time checking over and over the other cars if he hadn't been stopped ?
We just dont know
But like it or not, the dog was repeatedly called back to the Mccann car and not to the others. It is there for all to see on the longer video. It is a fact
And what is wrong with mentioning facts ?
[.... previously deleted quote removed ...]
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I have never said anything to the contrary. I have just commented about the time taken to keep calling the dog back to the Mccann car.
Maybe had it been called back to another car, then it would have marked there too.
Maybe Grime was stopped after the dog marked at The Mccann car. and perhaps he would have spent time checking over and over the other cars if he hadn't been stopped ?
We just dont know
But like it or not, the dog was repeatedly called back to the Mccann car and not to the others. It is there for all to see on the longer video. It is a fact
And what is wrong with mentioning facts ?
Because that's not what you're doing; you (and some of the others) are saying he was prompting his dogs.
Clearly experts in the USA do not agree with you or Mr Grime would not have worked there since PdL. They're certain to have seen those videos: this case is one of the most well known in the world.
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Surely information from these visitors - positive or negative - could be extremely important in addressing some of the forensic questions we have.
I don't see how ... unless one of them died there
That would be the only relevant information that would address the question of the cadaver dog alerting where the blood dog did not
Or can you think of something else these other guests of 5A did to cause a cadavor dog to bark in the bedroom where there was no scent of blood ( if there had, the blood dog would have alerted there too )
What 'extremely important' information might these guests have that would address that question ?
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Do you think these friends of the owner were put in as caretakers, since Media and all sorts were trying to get in to the Apt
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026531/Madeleine-McCann-flat-market-couple-young-child-holiday-there.html
We now also know that the front door had a difficult double lock and the patio door only locked from the inside
Back on track, Anna, it does look like the friends could have been caretakers.
I find it interesting that any holidaying family would want to stay in that apartment so close to the time that Madeleine vanished. It was high season by the time these families arrived and presumably the resort was booked to capacity. Can't imagine someone picking that apartment out.
And yes this is a reminder about the door situation. The front door did indeed have a difficult lock and an unusual key. I had forgotten that the patio doors only locked from the inside, but this helps explain the regular use of the front door despite it being significantly further away.
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Maybe partially, but mainly to make money, I think. But I dont KNOW.
The front door not only had a double lock, but it was completely out of sight from almost all directions. It was deeply recessed and virtually pitch black there. No one passed by.
Would you rent your holiday home to a family whilst all that was going on?..........I wouldn't! But making money can be uppermost for some. I don't suppose any compensation was offered to this owner either.
I know the front door was in a hidden dark area and I believe the child would have been taken out that way. A neighbours brother and girlfriend saw a small silver car parked outside when they were going home around 9.30
Mr Gordon also said that the shutters were very noisy, so it would be silly to use the window IMO
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We now also know that the front door had a difficult double lock and the patio door only locked from the inside
Patio door could only be locked from the inside - and not accessed from outside if locked. Is this right?
That means that anyone wanting to enter the apartment illegally would be likely to attempt to do so via the front door.
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I don't see how ... unless one of them died there
That would be the only relevant information that would address the question of the cadaver dog alerting where the blood dog did not
Or can you think of something else these other guests of 5A did to cause a cadavor dog to bark in the bedroom where there was no scent of blood ( if there had, the blood dog would have alerted there too )
What 'extremely important' information might these guests have that would address that question ?
I will return to the question of the visitors themselves shortly, icabod. Would like to try to find out a little more about them.
Generally speaking, it is possible that someone died in that apartment at some point, isn't it?
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Patio door could only be locked from the inside - and not accessed from outside if locked. Is this right?
That means that anyone wanting to enter the apartment illegally would be likely to attempt to do so via the front door.
That is correct SH. Unless of course it was a worker at the club who new the patio door was open and even then it would be risky. No it would be the main front door with someone near the Tapas bar to alert them by phone, if the parents were returning. There was only a short gap at the start of the evening when parents weren't back and forth.
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I will return to the question of the visitors themselves shortly, icabod. Would like to try to find out a little more about them.
Generally speaking, it is possible that someone died in that apartment at some point, isn't it?
Apart from the little girl who was last seen alive there, before disappearing without trace, you mean ?
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Witness statement, for reference, of occupant C. Francisco D'Ambrosio, who along with his wife occupied the apartment from April 14th 2007 for one week.
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 42 – 43
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD
WITNESS TESTIMONY OF CARLO FRANCISO D'AMBROSIO
Occupation: Hair Dresser
This statement, consisting of three pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 29 April 2008
Signature:
I am the above referenced person and live at the address previously given to this police.
On the 14th of April of 2007, in the company of my partner, June HUGHES, we travelled from Glasgow airport to Portugal for a one week holiday.
We effected the reservation with the Thomas Cook travel agency; a week of holidays in the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz.
Even though we did not have problems during out holidays, I felt a bit vulnerable with the possibility of a break-in given the location of the apartment. For this reason, we would keep the blinds closed every time we left the apartment.
On our first night I noticed that the principal room (in front of the pool and the Tapas bar) was completely exposed and communicated this problem to the reception. (Page 1) To our satisfaction the blinds were fixed the next day.
I was not aware of any locking system for the blinds that covered the front, back and side windows. It did not appear possible to use a lock and would close on its own as a result of its weight. In order to open it, you needed to use the interior belt system.
I verified that all the blinds worked correctly.
We would always enter and leave the apartment through the main door with gave way to the parking area and the street. We did not use the pool-side doors as it was not possible to close them from the outside. It was get very dark outside our door and that left us a bit scared. The darkness was due to a faulty/wasted bulb.
It was only myself and June in the apartment and for this reason we did not have any contact with the Creche or child services. We only breakfasted in the apartment and would dine always outside the resort. We never used any restaurants in the Ocean Club.
In response to the question asked of me by the Portuguese Police I can affirm that nobody got hurt or died in the apartment during our stay.
We were not victims of any break-in (page 2). According to what I know, there was no presence of strangers, inside or outside the apartment. The only people in the immediate areas of the apartment were the gardeners, whom I saw three times during the week and the cleaning woman who would come every day.
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.[/i]
I can tell you that the living room sofa (to the right when on entered via the patio door) was positioned about 60 cm away from the wall.
I give the police a CD with photographs taken in the space and the resort during our stay between the 14th of April and the 21st of April of 2007. I have produced this marked as C.F.D.1.
This statement was elaborated by my and in truthful in accordance with my understanding.
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Apart from the little girl who was last seen alive there, before disappearing without trace, you mean ?
Technically, both. Madeleine could have died there, yes.
But being a property designed and located with holiday occupancy in mind, there must have been hundreds possibly thousands of people who used the place over the years. It is certainly possible that one (or more) of those people sustained a fatal injury whilst in the apartment or died in the apartment after being injured (or having took ill) elsewhere.
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Statement of Occupant Clare Louise Fawkes who stayed in the apartment with her husband and daughter:
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 44 - 46
Witness statement
FAWKES; Claire Louise
Occupation: Teacher
Date: 22 nd April 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to at the address above where I live with my husband S**** and daughter R*** aged 3 ½.
At Easter my family had two weeks holiday. I do not remember the exact date we travelled but I know it was a Saturday after Easter. We travelled to the OC, P da L in the Algarve in Portugal.
We had never stayed at a MW resort before but the facilities in relation to child care and sporting activities were attractive. We travelled from Gatwick to Faro and were transferred to the resort by MW reps. The holidays were booked as a complete package through MW.
Upon arrival we were allocated an apartment identified as G5 A or something similar. It was the corner apartment on the ground floor of a block of two or three storeys. Our apartment had two bedrooms and a patio with a door that opened onto the terrace opposite the swimming pool, restaurant and OC children’s playing area. The other entrance led onto the parking area.
During the holidays we would occasionally place R*** in the crèche when we were doing other activities. On the Wednesday or Thursday of the second week of our holiday I received a phone call from a MW employee saying that R*** had fallen in the crèche and had cut her chin. When I arrived at the club she had almost stopped bleeding, but even so and through precaution we took her to a doctor in P da L, who put in some stitches. I do not remember if she bled again after this or whether she did in the apartment, but it is a possibility. However nobody else injured themselves or died during the holiday.
I was not robbed during the holiday and none of our possessions disappeared. I never detected the presence of anyone strange near the apartment. R*** slept in the bedroom whose window looked over the parking area. It had a window which I think we never opened and a metal shutter that covered the entire window on the outside, but which was controlled from the inside of the bedroom either electronically or by a belt that was pulled. It was nearly always closed, but on occasions we would open it to have more light. As far as I can remember the shutter worked perfectly well. We never had a bad experience with the windows or doors.
In order to enter and leave the apartment we would always use the front door that led onto the parking area given that the patio door could only be locked from the inside.
When you entered into the living room from the patio, there was a coffee table opposite with a sofa parallel to the kitchen. I do not remember whether the sofa was pushed against the wall. I think there was sufficient space to pass behind the sofa and the dining table.
I made a sketch which I showed as proof to CLF and which I delivered to DC Wright. We did not move any of the furniture in the apartment.
As I have already said we travelled to Portugal with our daughter R*** who slept in the back bedroom, opposite the pool area. I used to refer to her bedroom as the lilac room because the bedclothes and curtains were lilac.
We would generally walk to the MW restaurant at a distance of 5 or 10 minutes to have breakfast. We would normally have lunch in the apartment.
During the first week of the holidays we would return to the same restaurant for dinner. I can’t remember what the restaurant was called. During the second week we would sometimes dine at the Tapas. My husband and I would have dinner out each night. While we were out we would hand Ruth over to the care of MW babysitters. The normal procedure was to dress her in pyjamas at about 19.00 and at 19.30 take her to the place near to the reception. Ruth would stay in the care of MW staff until they (children) were ready to sleep. If they were tired, there were beds available for the children to sleep in. We would collect R*** on out return to the apartment at about 21.30 – 22.00. This service was included in the holiday package and was available until 23.00.
We never left R*** on her own. When she was not with us she was in the organised care of someone who looked after the children.
On the Friday before our return home, my husband had gone to the beach leaving R*** and I in the apartment. The keys were also in the apartment but I couldn’t find them, so I felt unable to take R*** to the crèche.
I was worried and went to the terrace to see if I could spot S****. It was at this moment that I saw three road sweepers in the immediate area. They all appeared to be staring in my direction and I felt they were observing me. I had wondered whether to leave the apartment open whilst I took R*** to the crèche but from the moment that I felt observed, this idea lost its appeal. They were all men and wearing overalls that reminded me of surgical outfits. I do not remember anymore about them.
I handed a CD to DC 4064 HOLLIDAY on 15h45 of 22nd April 2008 containing some pictures of our holidays at the MW resort. It was referenced as CLF2.
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Technically, both. Madeleine could have died there, yes.
But being a property designed and located with holiday occupancy in mind, there must have been hundreds possibly thousands of people who used the place over the years. It is certainly possible that one (or more) of those people sustained a fatal injury whilst in the apartment or died in the apartment after being injured (or having took ill) elsewhere.
According to Mrs Fenns neice ,Mrs Fenn lived there for a very long time, (I wonder if she died in her flat), so it is possible that someone at some time lived permanently in 5A. Did I read a witness statement from a young girl whose grandma lived there once? I will have a look.
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Technically, both. Madeleine could have died there, yes.
But being a property designed and located with holiday occupancy in mind, there must have been hundreds possibly thousands of people who used the place over the years. It is certainly possible that one (or more) of those people sustained a fatal injury whilst in the apartment or died in the apartment after being injured (or having took ill) elsewhere.
From recollection, it has already been established, no ne had died in the apartment, prior to the events of the 3 rd May.
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From recollection, it has already been established, no ne had died in the apartment, prior to the events of the 3 rd May.
How was this established?
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Deposition of T. M. S., aged 12, a resident in Luz, on the 9th of May 2007, 4 p.m.
Page 800-804, volume III of process 201/07.0GALGS
"Comes to the process as a witness. Understands the Portuguese Language, as she has been living in Portugal since the age of two months (approximately eleven years ago). Still, an interpreter is present [name withheld].
Her parents are separated, she initially resided in Monchique, and now in Praia da Luz, since 2005, at the address that is stated above, with her Mother.
She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn’t actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside.
She wishes to clarify. On the 30th of April, Monday, at around 8 a.m. and when she was walking to the bus stop for the school bus that leaves at 8.15, a path that she walks every day when there is school, she noticed the presence of a male individual, at the back of Madeleine’s house, on a little pathway to the apartments that exists there, looking in an ostensive manner at the house’s balcony. This happened when she was walking down the street, on the left side, which was right in front of the balcony, and the distance between them was the width of the road. That when she was walking down she decided to look at the pathway, because as she lived there, she likes to watch the house and the neighbouring garden. She walked with her mother, that she is certain she didn’t see the man, and she was walking two dogs on a leash, which forced them to cross the road, a bit further down. At that moment she saw the man more closely, as they crossed the road, and then lost visual angle when they finished crossing.
Says that the man didn’t see the deponent, because he was staring at the balcony.
She presumes that nobody was on Madeleine’s house’s balcony, but she cannot state it beyond doubt.
After crossing, she caught the bus and went to school and her mother went on the beach to walk the dogs.
When she returned from school, at around 5.30/5.40 p.m., after leaving the bus, she walked a different path, because the bus has a stop on the street where she lives, and therefore she doesn’t need to walk down to the ‘Ocean Club’. She didn’t see the man again at that time, nor did she see him again until the 2nd of May, Wednesday, after the bank holiday.
That on that day she didn’t go to school because she was sick with an infection in her right ear. Still, and feeling somewhat better, at around noon she left on her own, as her mother was at work, with the dogs, and went to the ‘Alisuper’ supermarket which is located on a perpendicular to Rua Direita, where she bought chocolates for €3,63. Then she walked to the pharmacy, which is located below the ‘Baptista’ supermarket, on a lateral perspective, where she bought a box of tampons for her ears, to prevent water from getting in, and spent €4,55. Then she went to ‘Baptista’ supermarket to buy cereal bread, because they don’t sell it at ‘Alisuper’. She left the dogs tied at the back entrance of ‘Baptista’ and went in to buy the bread. She paid, left ‘Baptista’, collected the dogs, and walked across the supermarket’s hall to the main entrance, approximately four/five metres, which exits to the street where she had seen the man. She started walking up the street on the left side going up, and saw the man, this time in front of the ‘Ocean Club’s’ reception, once more looking at Madeleine’s house in an ostensive manner, where he stood he could observe, she thinks, the house’s two side windows and part of the balcony. She thinks that he could also be looking at the other residences that are located in the same direction.
That as she was walking up she walked right in front of the man, and observed him directly, an action that he did not retaliate, because he never looked at the deponent. The distance that she observed him from was the width of the road.
After walking by the individual, she walked towards her house, through the road to the right, and never looked back to the man, or turned around to observe him better.
After that day she never saw him again.
As she said before, she left home at 12 p.m. and returned at 12.35 p.m., which means she crossed with the man at around 12.25/12.28 (the rest of the walk takes about seven minutes).
On the next day, Thursday (03.05.2007) she walked the same path as on the 30th, at the same time, but didn’t see the man, and never saw him again, as she said before.
Concerning the individual, she describes him as being: Caucasian race, light skin, so he wasn’t Portuguese, but could be British, according to her criteria. Approximately 180 cm tall, thin complexion, 30/35 years of age. Short hair, like shaved with 1 cm of length and fair, but she isn’t sure if it was blonde because the sun was reflecting, and made perception more difficult. She didn’t see the eyes because he wore dark glasses of black colour, with a structure of mass, a thick frame. He had a large forehead. Nose of normal size, a bit pointy and sharp. Large ears, close against the head. Mouth with thin lips, she didn’t see his teeth. Chin pointing up, which stood out on a face that she describes as sharp. No beard, no moustache, a clean shave. No other special signs, apart from some small pimples on the face as a result of shaving. He looked ugly, even ‘disgusting’.
The first time that she saw him he was wearing a sports style jacket of thin black leather, with a zipper and several pockets also with similar zippers, in silver. She saw no label or inscription. The jacket was open, therefore she saw a white t-shirt, with a dark blue label near the waist, which she cannot identify very well.
Trousers, she thinks, of blue jeans, worn out. Sports shoes (trainers) in black and grey, with a wave, maybe ‘Nike’ in a colour that she can’t remember.
The second time, he wore the same jacket, this time zipped up, because the day was colder than the first one, windy. She didn’t notice the rest of the clothing. She says that on that day he had a pen with a string attached to one of his pockets.
The first time, he was leaning against the wall against his hands, and the second time, he had his hands in his pockets.
She never saw him with any photo camera, or any mobile phone, although the second time, he might have a device in his pocket, which she detected by the shape.
When asked, she says that she saw no vehicle near the man, only a few vehicles, but near the ‘Baptista’.
When asked she says that she saw Madeleine once, on a day that she cannot indicate, on the balcony where the man was staring at, the first time. She even waved at her because it was a small child, in a caring gesture.
A map of the area is added, where A is the spot of the first sighting and B the spot for the second one. The ‘Baptista’ supermarket and Madeleine’s apartment.
She said that she can recognise the man both personally and photographically, and create a photofit.
Therefore I interrupt the present deposition and show the deponent photographs of individuals with similar characteristics.
I resume the deposition where it is consigned that the diligence resulted negatively, according to a report that is annexed.
She didn’t say anything further. The deposition is read and approved, ratified and signed together with the interpreter that assisted.
The present deposition is written and signed."
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post6019.html#p6019
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According to Mrs Fenns neice ,Mrs Fenn lived there for a very long time, (I wonder if she died in her flat), so it is possible that someone at some time lived permanently in 5A. Did I read a witness statement from a young girl whose grandma lived there once? I will have a look.
That's right, the twelve year old girl ('T.M.S') reports seeing a man hovering about in the area.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3141.0
She notes that her grandmother lived in 5 A and this was why she was alert to what was going on as she walked by.
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@)(++(*
Road sweepers now SH?
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Beat me to it, Anna!
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@)(++(*
Road sweepers now SH?
It's not a theory of mine, Lyall!
Just noting points of possible interest in the statements and we'll take it from there...
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How was this established?
I believe there was an investigation by the PJ into tracing previous inhabitants.
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It's not a theory of mine, Lyall!
Just noting points of possible interest in the statements and we'll take it from there...
Of interest to whom? >@@(*&)
Charity collectors, road sweepers etc. etc. Everyone is a suspect if they are. Everyone who was in PdL the previous two weeks, and everyone within travelling distance in those two weeks (which is the whole world!)
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How was this established?
'From amarals book
There are signs of death in Apartment 5A. It's necessary to confirm that, prior to 3 May, no one had died there. The OC has no records of anything like that, nor the fire department, nor the paramedics, nor the prior apt owners knew of any death in the apt.'
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'From amarals book
There are signs of death in Apartment 5A. It's necessary to confirm that, prior to 3 May, no one had died there. The OC has no records of anything like that, nor the fire department, nor the paramedics, nor the prior apt owners knew of any death in the apt.'
Thank you for that, Stephen.
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You mention the statement of T. M. S.
That was another 'suspect' completely ignored publicly between January 08 and May 09 (Madeleine was here) just like 'Smithman'. There's a pattern there don't you think?
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Of interest to whom? >@@(*&)
Charity collectors, road sweepers etc. etc. Everyone is a suspect if they are. Everyone who was in PdL the previous two weeks, and everyone within travelling distance in those two weeks (which is the whole world!)
I said points of interest - not persons of interest.
Please don't confuse me with The Yard!
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I believe there was an investigation by the PJ into tracing previous inhabitants.
I'm sure there was, and I'm sure Scotland Yard, too, would have been keen to establish whether anyone ese had died in that apartment
Most of all, though, I am sure the McCanns, themselves, would be more than interested in the possibility of attributing the cadaver dog alerts to some previous death in that apartment ... and will have instructed their numerous private detectives to make all relevant enquiries
In any event, no-one ... not the police, not private detectives, not the press, not former owners/guests ... and not the McCanns, themselves ... have made any such claim
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You mention the statement of T. M. S.
That was another 'suspect' completely ignored publicly between January 08 and May 09 (Madeleine was here) just like 'Smithman'. There's a pattern there don't you think?
Could be...
You need to get the cryptographers onto that one, Lyall...
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I'm sure there was, and I'm sure Scotland Yard, too, would have keen to establish whether anyone ese had died in that apartment
Most of all, though, I am sure the McCanns, themselves, would be more than interested in the possibility of attributing the cadaver dog alerts to some previous death in that apartment ... and will have instructed their numerous private detectives to make all relevant enquiries
In any event, no-one ... not the police, not private detectives, not the press, not former owners/guests ... and not the McCanns, themselves ... have made any such claim
the dogs alerts do not mean a cadaver had been present in 5a
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Of interest to whom? >@@(*&)
Charity collectors, road sweepers etc. etc. Everyone is a suspect if they are. Everyone who was in PdL the previous two weeks, and everyone within travelling distance in those two weeks (which is the whole world!)
?{)(**
By law only certified undertakers may put a cadaver into a coffin and transport it to the church and cemetery. Ambulances aren't allowed to transport dead bodies. As no undertaker takes a corpse in charge without a death certificate, all deaths are registered in the registo civil with indications of day, place and manner of death.
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'From amarals book
There are signs of death in Apartment 5A. It's necessary to confirm that, prior to 3 May, no one had died there. The OC has no records of anything like that, nor the fire department, nor the paramedics, nor the prior apt owners knew of any death in the apt.'
amaral misunderstood the dogs alerts
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That's right, the twelve year old girl ('T.M.S') reports seeing a man hovering about in the area.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3141.0
She notes that her grandmother lived in 5 A and this was why she was alert to what was going on as she walked by.
I checked Mrs tramners statement and I appear to have got it wrong because she only bought it 2003.
However 5A, the owner prior to the one who has it now, was already dead when that book was written. so how did he know that nobody had died there before. It would only be a doctor and funeral services who would know, if she was being treated at home and the lady lived there permanently.Her daughter and granddaughter visited I believe .
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I believe there was an investigation by the PJ into tracing previous inhabitants.
Do you have a link for this as it would be useful, Thanks
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I said points of interest - not persons of interest.
Please don't confuse me with The Yard!
>@@(*&) Only of interest to those who wish to confuse I'd suggest. Some people are only too happy to point to hundreds of 'suspects'.
Whereas the people in PdL that week said on the record - more than once - it was quiet and they noticed nothing or nobody unusual.
Now some people would like to suggest there were 'odd people' in every shadow and around every corner.
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>@@(*&) Only of interest to those who wish to confuse I'd suggest. Some people are only too happy to point to hundreds of 'suspects'.
Whereas the people in PdL that week said on the record - more than once - it was quiet and they noticed nothing or nobody unusual.
Now some people would like to suggest there were 'odd people' in every shadow and around every corner.
The stock answer to that will be xenophobic twaddle. You can't have a simple matter like the truth getting in the way now 8(>((
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According to Mrs Fenns neice ,Mrs Fenn lived there for a very long time, (I wonder if she died in her flat), so it is possible that someone at some time lived permanently in 5A. Did I read a witness statement from a young girl whose grandma lived there once? I will have a look.
Yes Tasmin Silences Gran and Gramp owned 5A for some time. She and her mother lived there too for a period.
There was talk on another forum that I was on, about 6 years ago, that her Grandpa died in hospital and his clothes were brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I am not sure what clothes they were or even if it was true. I am merely repeating what I read. However, I had no reason to believe that stuff posted there was anything but true.
Maybe someone else will remember it? Ferryman?
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>@@(*&) Only of interest to those who wish to confuse I'd suggest. Some people are only too happy to point to hundreds of 'suspects'.
Whereas the people in PdL that week said on the record - more than once - it was quiet and they noticed nothing or nobody unusual.
Now some people would like to suggest there were 'odd people' in every shadow and around every corner.
True, but that does not mean that the testimony of those well-acquainted with PdL and its regular goings-on should be regarded as confused. Please note comments on 'Dark Glasses Man', for example:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3141.0
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True, but that does not mean that the testimony of those well-acquainted with PdL and its regular goings-on should be regarded as confused. Please note comments on 'Dark Glasses Man', for example:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3141.0
Well I think (in fact I know from personal experience) that after an incident like this people do get very confused. They start imagining they have seen all sorts of suspicious things in the previous hours and days.
Doubtless police will have had many witnesses like this saying they saw people - people not doing anything suspicious: just being there around where the incident later took place. It's common to incidents everywhere.
What's common to all the statements used in Madeleine was here is that the people seen (or later said to have been seen) weren't doing anything suspicious: they're just described as looking 'odd'. People are desperate to help after incidents and can create something from nothing - very easily.
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Yes Tasmin Silences Gran and Gramp owned 5A for some time. She and her mother lived there too for a period.
There was talk on another forum that I was on, about 6 years ago, that her Grandpa died in hospital and his clothes were brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I am not sure what clothes they were or even if it was true. I am merely repeating what I read. However, I had no reason to believe that stuff posted there was anything but true.
Maybe someone else will remember it? Ferryman?
So we need to find out the family name which will be on the census returns or daughter's marriage and look up the death certificates.
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Well I think (in fact I know from personal experience) that after an incident like this people do get very confused. They start imagining they have seen all sorts of suspicious things in the previous hours and days.
Doubtless police will have had many witnesses like this saying they saw people - people not doing anything suspicious: just being there around where the incident later took place. It's common to incidents everywhere.
It's true.
But as a matter of principle, which I think is important here, just because there are huge numbers of 'suspects' (whatever that is supposed to mean exactly) in this case, and many witnesses of different kinds, most of whom are perhaps significant only in the minds of journalist hacks or people's imaginations, does not mean that there are not reliable witnesses and genuine suspects amongst them.
The process of separating the wood from the trees is surely one of the main reasons that this case is occupying so much of SY's time.
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I'm sure you'll understand that any suggestion of Eddie alerting to sex tissues in the 5A is groundless.
Haven't read the rest of the thread.
But that is as classic an example of a strawman argument as you'll find ....
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From Grime's statements, Eddie could smell airborne scents within his training parameters. However, he stated that Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood.
The occupants prior to the inspection had left a week before and was presumably locked up since then.
Could shoes, socks, a band-aid, or whatever, with a trace of blood on them have been left around by the previous occupants and a cleaner had removed the item prior to the actual inspection? Were those occupants ever interviewed? When did a cleaner last enter that apartment?
What would be incompatible with the dogs' reactions?
There was Mr John Paul Gordon, who cut himself shaving and bled for 45 minutes.
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@)(++(*
He wasn't reacting to a cadaver, there was none, as he wasn't reacting to a sex tissue, there was none.
He reacted to VOCs released by a cadaver (whose cadaver ?) before being removed (Smithman ?) and stuck in porous materials of the bedroom.
BTW, what do you have against corpses ?
Yes, in the Island of Jersey there is a very clear reference from the Haut de la Garenne case, by Grime, that indicated Eddie indicated to semen.
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As we are talking about the alerts of the dogs in 5a I think its important to note that Grime...the expert...has not claimed that there was a cadaver in 5a and that the alerts could be as a result of cross contamination from several different scenarios. It's not up to the McCanns or their supporters to prove why the dogs alerted...we will probably never know.
I think it can be safely asserted that the apparent alert to cuddle-cat was an error, either of failure to alert, or (more likely) "alerting" when there was no odour.
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@)(++(*
Road sweepers now SH?
There have always been three road sweepers but the rest of us failed to pick it up. Well done Sherlock !
The " IN " word with present SY thinking is Three !
Oh and whilst I am at it. Well done Heri. He noticed a good deal about three men some months ago. I think it was he that alerted SY .
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There have always been three road sweepers but the rest of us failed to pick it up. Well done Sherlock !
The " IN " word with present SY thinking is Three !
Oh and whilst I am at it. Well done Heri. He noticed a good deal about three men some months ago. I think it was he that alerted SY .
Why not three ice cream sellers? Or three chefs? Or three basket weavers? Or three tenors?
David Icke will be calling Heriberto too 8(0(*
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Deposition of T. M. S., aged 12, a resident in Luz, on the 9th of May 2007, 4 p.m.
Page 800-804, volume III of process 201/07.0GALGS
"Comes to the process as a witness. Understands the Portuguese Language, as she has been living in Portugal since the age of two months (approximately eleven years ago). Still, an interpreter is present [name withheld].
Her parents are separated, she initially resided in Monchique, and now in Praia da Luz, since 2005, at the address that is stated above, with her Mother.
She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn’t actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside.
She wishes to clarify. On the 30th of April, Monday, at around 8 a.m. and when she was walking to the bus stop for the school bus that leaves at 8.15, a path that she walks every day when there is school, she noticed the presence of a male individual, at the back of Madeleine’s house, on a little pathway to the apartments that exists there, looking in an ostensive manner at the house’s balcony. This happened when she was walking down the street, on the left side, which was right in front of the balcony, and the distance between them was the width of the road. That when she was walking down she decided to look at the pathway, because as she lived there, she likes to watch the house and the neighbouring garden. She walked with her mother, that she is certain she didn’t see the man, and she was walking two dogs on a leash, which forced them to cross the road, a bit further down. At that moment she saw the man more closely, as they crossed the road, and then lost visual angle when they finished crossing.
Says that the man didn’t see the deponent, because he was staring at the balcony.
She presumes that nobody was on Madeleine’s house’s balcony, but she cannot state it beyond doubt.
After crossing, she caught the bus and went to school and her mother went on the beach to walk the dogs.
When she returned from school, at around 5.30/5.40 p.m., after leaving the bus, she walked a different path, because the bus has a stop on the street where she lives, and therefore she doesn’t need to walk down to the ‘Ocean Club’. She didn’t see the man again at that time, nor did she see him again until the 2nd of May, Wednesday, after the bank holiday.
That on that day she didn’t go to school because she was sick with an infection in her right ear. Still, and feeling somewhat better, at around noon she left on her own, as her mother was at work, with the dogs, and went to the ‘Alisuper’ supermarket which is located on a perpendicular to Rua Direita, where she bought chocolates for €3,63. Then she walked to the pharmacy, which is located below the ‘Baptista’ supermarket, on a lateral perspective, where she bought a box of tampons for her ears, to prevent water from getting in, and spent €4,55. Then she went to ‘Baptista’ supermarket to buy cereal bread, because they don’t sell it at ‘Alisuper’. She left the dogs tied at the back entrance of ‘Baptista’ and went in to buy the bread. She paid, left ‘Baptista’, collected the dogs, and walked across the supermarket’s hall to the main entrance, approximately four/five metres, which exits to the street where she had seen the man. She started walking up the street on the left side going up, and saw the man, this time in front of the ‘Ocean Club’s’ reception, once more looking at Madeleine’s house in an ostensive manner, where he stood he could observe, she thinks, the house’s two side windows and part of the balcony. She thinks that he could also be looking at the other residences that are located in the same direction.
That as she was walking up she walked right in front of the man, and observed him directly, an action that he did not retaliate, because he never looked at the deponent. The distance that she observed him from was the width of the road.
After walking by the individual, she walked towards her house, through the road to the right, and never looked back to the man, or turned around to observe him better.
After that day she never saw him again.
As she said before, she left home at 12 p.m. and returned at 12.35 p.m., which means she crossed with the man at around 12.25/12.28 (the rest of the walk takes about seven minutes).
On the next day, Thursday (03.05.2007) she walked the same path as on the 30th, at the same time, but didn’t see the man, and never saw him again, as she said before.
Concerning the individual, she describes him as being: Caucasian race, light skin, so he wasn’t Portuguese, but could be British, according to her criteria. Approximately 180 cm tall, thin complexion, 30/35 years of age. Short hair, like shaved with 1 cm of length and fair, but she isn’t sure if it was blonde because the sun was reflecting, and made perception more difficult. She didn’t see the eyes because he wore dark glasses of black colour, with a structure of mass, a thick frame. He had a large forehead. Nose of normal size, a bit pointy and sharp. Large ears, close against the head. Mouth with thin lips, she didn’t see his teeth. Chin pointing up, which stood out on a face that she describes as sharp. No beard, no moustache, a clean shave. No other special signs, apart from some small pimples on the face as a result of shaving. He looked ugly, even ‘disgusting’.
The first time that she saw him he was wearing a sports style jacket of thin black leather, with a zipper and several pockets also with similar zippers, in silver. She saw no label or inscription. The jacket was open, therefore she saw a white t-shirt, with a dark blue label near the waist, which she cannot identify very well.
Trousers, she thinks, of blue jeans, worn out. Sports shoes (trainers) in black and grey, with a wave, maybe ‘Nike’ in a colour that she can’t remember.
The second time, he wore the same jacket, this time zipped up, because the day was colder than the first one, windy. She didn’t notice the rest of the clothing. She says that on that day he had a pen with a string attached to one of his pockets.
The first time, he was leaning against the wall against his hands, and the second time, he had his hands in his pockets.
She never saw him with any photo camera, or any mobile phone, although the second time, he might have a device in his pocket, which she detected by the shape.
When asked, she says that she saw no vehicle near the man, only a few vehicles, but near the ‘Baptista’.
When asked she says that she saw Madeleine once, on a day that she cannot indicate, on the balcony where the man was staring at, the first time. She even waved at her because it was a small child, in a caring gesture.
A map of the area is added, where A is the spot of the first sighting and B the spot for the second one. The ‘Baptista’ supermarket and Madeleine’s apartment.
She said that she can recognise the man both personally and photographically, and create a photofit.
Therefore I interrupt the present deposition and show the deponent photographs of individuals with similar characteristics.
I resume the deposition where it is consigned that the diligence resulted negatively, according to a report that is annexed.
She didn’t say anything further. The deposition is read and approved, ratified and signed together with the interpreter that assisted.
The present deposition is written and signed."
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post6019.html#p6019
What outstanding observation and recall. A big pat on the back to Tasmin as well.
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I think it can be safely asserted that the apparent alert to cuddle-cat was an error, either of failure to alert, or (more likely) "alerting" when there was no odour.
I think in your theory both errors happen, one after the other?
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>@@(*&) Only of interest to those who wish to confuse I'd suggest. Some people are only too happy to point to hundreds of 'suspects'.
Whereas the people in PdL that week said on the record - more than once - it was quiet and they noticed nothing or nobody unusual.
Now some people would like to suggest there were 'odd people' in every shadow and around every corner.
Everybody and everything, especially if unusual, has to be looked at Lyall, dont you think?
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Yes Tasmin Silences Gran and Gramp owned 5A for some time. She and her mother lived there too for a period.
There was talk on another forum that I was on, about 6 years ago, that her Grandpa died in hospital and his clothes were brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I am not sure what clothes they were or even if it was true. I am merely repeating what I read. However, I had no reason to believe that stuff posted there was anything but true.
Maybe someone else will remember it? Ferryman?
An excellent point about the deceased's clothes being brought back and stored in the wardrobe Sadie. This is exactly the sort of thing which Eddie would have reacted to.
PS I have changed the title of this thread slightly to reflect the discussion.
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Well I think (in fact I know from personal experience) that after an incident like this people do get very confused. They start imagining they have seen all sorts of suspicious things in the previous hours and days.
Doubtless police will have had many witnesses like this saying they saw people - people not doing anything suspicious: just being there around where the incident later took place. It's common to incidents everywhere.
What's common to all the statements used in Madeleine was here is that the people seen (or later said to have been seen) weren't doing anything suspicious: they're just described as looking 'odd'. People are desperate to help after incidents and can create something from nothing - very easily.
Are you real, Lyall? Tasmin saw a man who she had seen also on at least one other occasion staring at 5A, again standing right by 5A garden wall staring into the apartment Are you saying that that is not suspicious ?
Of course most people in PdL will Not have seen anything suspicious, and all will have appeared quiet and normal to them. Criminals do not go around with big black arrows all over them and a bag marked SWAG !
But here there are sufficient observations to have a definite pattern of suspicious behaviour beforehand.
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Tasmin's statement is most compelling, the fact that she only saw this 'ugly' guy twice and on both occasions he was stood staring at apartment 5a is in my opinion very sinister.
I find it very hard to believe that Tasmin didn't do an e-fit. Does anyone know if there is one?
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Why not three ice cream sellers? Or three chefs? Or three basket weavers? Or three tenors?
David Icke will be calling Heriberto too 8(0(*
On serious matters, not everyone thinks in such a twee way.
What is your problem, Lyall?
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What outstanding observation and recall. A big pat on the back to Tasmin as well.
Yes this is a very good example that a child witness may have far better recall of details than adults.
For example, 3.63 euros, that is excellent precision.
(and if the adults in the Smith group could remember their Kelly till amounts like that, then the Smith sighting could be timed with pinpoint accuracy).
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Everybody and everything, especially if unusual, has to be looked at Lyall, dont you think?
If it's credible, and dismissed if not. People hanging around, just looking 'odd' doesn't have credibility.
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An excellent point about the deceased's clothes being brought back and stored in the wardrobe Sadie. This is exactly the sort of thing which Eddie would have reacted to.
PS I have changed the title of this thread slightly to reflect the discussion.
Where is the proof clothes were brought back ?
This is an old story and sounds no more than desperation.
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On serious matters, not everyone thinks in such a twee way.
What is your problem, Lyall?
Your obsession with triviality.
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An excellent point about the deceased's clothes being brought back and stored in the wardrobe Sadie. This is exactly the sort of thing which Eddie would have reacted to.
PS I have changed the title of this thread slightly to reflect the discussion.
What??
You`ve worded that as though it is an established fact!
" There was talk on another forum....." etc etc..........and the poster goes on to say she doesn`t even know if it is true!
Shouldn`t you first ascertain that the clothes the person actually died in were the ones stored in the wardrobe........supposing it even occurred in the first place?
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Your obsession with triviality.
It is important to have an over view, but the answer can be in the detail
And often is.
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If it's credible, and dismissed if not. People hanging around, just looking 'odd' doesn't have credibility.
This girl walked this road nearly every day, she also took note of 5a because she used to live there. Her evidence is therefore extremely credible for a 12-year-old.
The point about the granddad passing away in hospital should not be lost. The fact that someone died who previously resided at 5a is important. His clothing or anyone connected with him could have brought cadaver scent to the apartment in their clothing.
Was the deceased's remains brought back to his firmer home?
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Where is the proof clothes were brought back ?
This is an old story and sounds no more than desperation.
There's no proof of anything..no one knows what the dogs were alerting to
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This girl walked this road nearly every day, she also took note of 5a because she used to live there. Her evidence is therefore extremely credible for a 12-year-old.
But so what? The bloke she says she saw wasn't doing anything.
It's worthless to police.
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I find it very hard to believe that Tasmin didn't participate in creating an e-fit. Does anyone know if there is one?
Yes she did
Processos 3a page 800
Please note mans hair is fair, as per her detailed description (difficult for the efit expert to do in black and white)
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What??
You`ve worded that as though it is an established fact!
" There was talk on another forum....." etc etc..........and the poster goes on to say she doesn`t even know if it is true!
Shouldn`t you first ascertain that the clothes the person actually died in were the ones stored in the wardrobe........supposing it even occurred in the first place?
How can I be certain it is true? There are no police statements. But the likelyhood is that it is true, cos the person who posted it always showed integrity.
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How can I be certain it is true? There are no police statements. But the likelyhood is that it is true, cos the person who posted it always showed integrity.
Myth Creation by Sadie @)(++(*
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I have always been fascinated by the account of this young girl, because to me she is the perfect witness.
At eleven years, she is old enough to have a reasonably adult view of a situation. She is mature enough to understand what is required in giving an intelligible and meaningful account of a suspect for the purposes of a police investigation.
At the same time, her child's eyes are free from the kind of prejudice or sophistication of perception that a more mature person may have. This is betrayed in her descriptions, which are fresh and clear. They are not over - interpretive but are merely reports.
Added to all that is the fact that, being local to Praia da Luz, and even having spent a great deal of time in apartment 5A, she is well aware of the terrain and local habits, and therefore has a certain sensitivity to what might be considered out of the ordinary in this context.
Her statement clearly shows her instinctive suspicion and wariness of this individual, even though it is not explicitly stated (she says for example that she 'walked right up to the man and observed him directly' ). She describes him as 'ugly' and 'disgusting' - perhaps not words an adult would use very often in describing another person.
It is also significant that her first sighting of him occurs on 30th April - 2 days after the McCanns arrive in PdL - and that after her second sighting on Wednesday 2nd May, he is not seen by her again.
Whether or not any of these suspects we are looking at were seen in the locality after Madeleine's disappearance is highly significant. In an area where the population is in constant flux, there are probably few people who would be able to report on how long certain people remained in the town. We are fortunate that she has been able to include this detail in her account.
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How can I be certain it is true? There are no police statements. But the likelyhood is that it is true, cos the person who posted it always showed integrity.
My reply wasn`t to your post..........Yes, you did say that you couldn`t be certain it was true.
It was the response from John which appeared to latch onto it and promote it as a fact.
Isn`t that how misinformation and myth get spread about?
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But so what? The bloke she says she saw wasn't doing anything.
It's worthless to police.
NOT doing anything ? Maybe nothing criminal, BUT ...
Standing leaning against 5A garden wall staring in .... and on another occasion so absorbed in staring that he didn't even notice Tasmin and two dogs walk past him ? Not doing anything?
Come on Lyall, you are in danger of losing your credibility
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Where is the proof clothes were brought back ?
This is an old story and sounds no more than desperation.
Isn't that what normally happens when a loved one dies? It is also the case that clothing is often retained for a long time afterwards. Sadie could very well be onto something here!
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Myth Creation by Sadie @)(++(*
No
I am not creating a myth becois I make it quite clear that I cant be certain. There are no lies in what I say.
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NOT doing anything ? Maybe nothing criminal, BUT ...
Standing leaning against 5A garden wall staring in .... and on another occasion so absorbed in staring that he didn't even notice Tasmin and two dogs walk past him ? Not doing anything?
Come on Lyall, you are in danger of losing your credibility
It's a young girl doubtless desperate to help after a major incident. You really ought to understand the psychology of those situations - people's imaginations take over in many instances.
If you'd been around the location of a major incident yourself - as I have - you'd understand how trivial things that happened before the incident can be seen as significant after it. It's a combination of wish to help and overactive imagination.
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It's a young girl doubtless desperate to help after a major incident. You really ought to understand the psychology of those situations - people's imaginations take over in many instances.
If you'd been around the location of a major incident yourself - as I have - you'd understand how trivial things that happened before the incident can be seen as significant after it. It's a combination of wish to help and overactive imagination.
Tasmins statement is the result of a clear mind, interest in a man watching her old home, and intellect.
I probably understand more about people and psychology than you do, especially of 11 and 12 year olds. Dont forget, I used to teach them
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That efit is Ian Hendry playing Eric Paice in Get Carter.
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That efit is Ian Hendry playing Eric Paice in Get Carter.
8((()*/ That's him.
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'From amarals book
There are signs of death in Apartment 5A. It's necessary to confirm that, prior to 3 May, no one had died there. The OC has no records of anything like that, nor the fire department, nor the paramedics, nor the prior apt owners knew of any death in the apt.'
The OC weren't very good were they? Tasmin's granddad lived there and he died albeit in hospital. It is very possible some of his belongings, contaminated with cadaverine, were brought back from the hospital and stored in apartment 5a. I bet this has never been checked out!
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Tasmins statement is the result of a clear mind, interest in a man watching her old home, and intellect.
I probably understand more about people and psychology than you do, especially of 11 and 12 year olds. Dont forget, I used to teach them
8@??)( 8((()*/
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8@??)( 8((()*/
Oh, thankyou John
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Isn't that what normally happens when a loved one dies? It is also the case that clothing is often retained for a long time afterwards. Sadie could very well be onto something here!
If true in the first place, the person apparently died in hospital........in a hospital bed.
His clothing would probably not be the garments he died in.
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Inform yourself about cadaverine and especially at what stage of decay it is produced.
Supposing you're concerned with the credibility of your site.
Dont forget that the dogs marked for other things as well
Anybody, especially an old man might have several bodily fluids on his clothes. Only needs one speck
ETA Including his pyjamas
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If true in the first place, the person apparently died in hospital........in a hospital bed.
His clothing would probably not be the garments he died in.
Agreed unlikely to be street clothes.
Although pyjamas is possible?.
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The OC weren't very good were they? Tasmin's granddad lived there and he died albeit in hospital. It is very possible some of his belongings, contaminated with cadaverine, were brought back from the hospital and stored in apartment 5a. I bet this has never been checked out!
Tamsin's grandparent did not live in 5a, he lived in the apartment next door. Late now and just home from south so will dig out the info tomorrow.
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But so what? The bloke she says she saw wasn't doing anything.
It's worthless to police.
@)(++(*
Precisely, the bloke wasn't doing anything ! Very suspicious !
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Tamsin's grandparent did not live in 5a, he lived in the apartment next door. Late now and just home from south so will dig out the info tomorrow.
Serendipity, be careful !
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The OC weren't very good were they? Tasmin's granddad lived there and he died albeit in hospital. It is very possible some of his belongings, contaminated with cadaverine, were brought back from the hospital and stored in apartment 5a. I bet this has never been checked out!
One would assume that something like this comes under the 'drawing everything back to zero' idea.
If we are asking questions like this based upon the files, SY must surely be doing exactly the same. They must have read and contemplated them many times over.
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Tamsin's grandparent did not live in 5a, he lived in the apartment next door. Late now and just home from south so will dig out the info tomorrow.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3141.0
She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside.
(This is what Tamsin says.. only mentions grandmother, apparently.. will look out for your info tomorrow, Serendipity).
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NOT doing anything ? Maybe nothing criminal, BUT ...
Standing leaning against 5A garden wall staring in .... and on another occasion so absorbed in staring that he didn't even notice Tasmin and two dogs walk past him ? Not doing anything?
Come on Lyall, you are in danger of losing your credibility
Not doing anything at all except staring intently at 5A ... and on the one occasion actually leaning against the garden wall to peer over.
FGS Stop spinning Anne.
It does your credibility no good.
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She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside.
(This is what Tamsin says.. only mentions grandmother, apparently.. will look out for your info tomorrow, Serendipity).
Decided to dig it out before bed. This info comes from one of the McCann's own powerpoint presentations. Tamsin was incorrect and it was the apartment next door. This was confirmed by Brian Kennedy when he spoke to one of her grandparent's friends, an Alfred Schuurmans on the 13th January 2008. Scroll down to find Alfred Schuurmans in the presentation in the link below.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POWERPOINT.htm
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Decided to dig it out before bed. This info comes from one of the McCann's own powerpoint presentations. Tamsin was incorrect and it was the apartment next door. This was confirmed by Brian Kennedy when he spoke to one of her grandparent's friends, an Alfred Schuurmans on the 13th January 2008. Scroll down to find Alfred Schuurmans in presentation in the link below.
Oh sure Tasmin didn't even know the flat where she lived.
Pull the other one, it has bells on it
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Decided to dig it out before bed. This info comes from one of the McCann's own powerpoint presentations. Tamsin was incorrect and it was the apartment next door. This was confirmed by Brian Kennedy when he spoke to one of her grandparent's friends, an Alfred Schuurmans on the 13th January 2008. Scroll down to find Alfred Schuurmans in the presentation in the link below.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POWERPOINT.htm
Thank you for this 'homework', Serendipity. Your memory is good too!
Here is the text to which I think you are referring:
Alfred Shuurmans
Alfred is the head of the Roscoe Foundation. This is a charity which raises funds for orphanages, and was created for his son who died tragically in a motorbike accident.
Brian Kennedy spoke to him on Sunday 13th January 2008 and Alfred confirmed:
- There are no orphanages in Espiche or in surrounding areas
- No collections are made, as this is illegal in Portugal
Alfred also confirmed that his friend had owned the apartment next to 5A at the Mark Warner resort. At the end of April 2007 his 12 year old daughter had spotted on several occasions ' a strange man lurking around the apartments'.
Towards the end of May 2007 she was interviewed, with her father present, by the Portuguese police. A witness statement is to be taken.
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Reading this statement carefully it is from a friend of the apartment owner.
I would suggest that Tamsin's report is probably much more reliable as she lived in the apartment for a period of time, and walked past it regularly on her way home from school, so is unlikely to have got it mixed up.
In addition, she and the information has been used in a reconstruction, the purpose of which is to clarify details, so presumably this all will have been checked out.
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What, however, do we make of the report that there are no orphanages in the area?
Does that not contradict the claim made by witness Paul Gordon (see page 1 of this thread) in which he gives an account of a charity collector coming to 5A?
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In Madeleine Was Here
From 4: 09 or thereabouts, Tamsin reads her statement.
''My grandparents used to live in that apartment''
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXtBWNCFt7U
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What, however, do we make of the report that there are no orphanages in the area?
There is an orpanage called Lagos Childrens Home.
Also the Rosco Foundation which organises activities for orphans.
And the Sunshine Golf Orphanage Trust.
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There is an orpanage called Lagos Childrens Home.
Also the Rosco Foundation which organises activities for orphans.
Yes, so we need to check the context in which this statement regarding the conversation with Brian Kennedy is made. On the one hand we learn of the orphanage and at the same time we are told that there are no orphanages (in Espiche, at least).
So what is the significance of Espiche specifically, I wonder?
Regarding the orphanage in Lagos, thank you for that information. Would that have been in existence in 2007/
We learn of course from the statement that making collections is illegal in Portugal. Perhaps one of our Portuguese residents or friends can confirm this?
If it is indeed illegal, then perhaps the charity collector was bogus - as Scotland Yard appear to suspect.
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Re the Cooper statement:
I can prove easily that the charity collector is genuine and was telling the witness the 100% true story of exactly why the orphanage charity was founded, and the witness (because unable to clearly understand the collector's english) has unintentionally given a very garbled account of what the collector actually said.
BTW actually it was one young person who died (not the whole family) and it was 3 years before (not 3 days),
It would have been fairer if uk police and forum peeps alike had done some basic research before doubting a 100% genuine charity.
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Re the Cooper statement:
I can prove easily that the charity collector is genuine and was telling the witness the 100% true story of exactly why the orphanage charity was founded, and the witness (because unable to clearly understand the collector's english) has unintentionally given a very garbled account of what the collector actually said.
BTW actually it was one young person who died (not the whole family) and it was 3 years before (not 3 days),
It would have been fairer if uk police and forum peeps alike had done some basic research before doubting a 100% genuine charity.
Is this a quote from the Cooper statement, pegasus? I can't quite follow the meaning...
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The OC weren't very good were they? Tasmin's granddad lived there and he died albeit in hospital. It is very possible some of his belongings, contaminated with cadaverine, were brought back from the hospital and stored in apartment 5a. I bet this has never been checked out!
Wishful thinking on that one..
Rather like kate mccanns claim to have 'seen' 6 bodies before PDL and that claim was checked out and summarily dropped. Now that was ridiculous in itself.
I've heard some in my time to explain away scents, but this takes the biscuit, since it would never explain the odours detected in the varios places.
It is no more and no less another attempt by people like sadie to clutch at straws.
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But if there is 'evidence', as you put it, that she died in 5A, then why have SY stated categorically that she may be alive?
No there is evidence someone had died in 5A, and it could be the child.
and where did Scotland Yard actually say she may still be alive? Where there is no body there is always that hope that people cling too....
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The following is a statement from Paul Anthony Gordon, who stayed in apartment 5A with his family in April 2007 directly prior to its occupancy by the McCanns.
He also notes that he cut himself whilst shaving resulting in bleeding for 45 minutes.
He notes how he has been pursued by the press and others for information regarding the charity collector - bogus or otherwise - who visited the apartment asking him for money for an orphanage:
CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5)
Pages 36 to 38—Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon
Date 2008.04.24
Summarised translation:
Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Account
Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon
Occupation: Accountant
Date : 24th April 2008
I am married to Saleigh and we have two children, C...... aged three and J..... aged two.
We stayed in the same apartment that the McCanns would later stay in, apartment 5ª of the Ocean Club. We travelled to Faro on 21st April 2007.
On Wednesday the children were asleep in the apartment and Sal was reading inside. I was in the garden when I heard a male voice say “Ola”. I got up and went towards the man who asked me whether I was interested in making a donation to an orphanage. I talked to him and notice he had an ID label and what seemed to be a book of receipts. I thought he was either genuine or that it was a professional scam. I gave him 10 Euros and I think he gave me a receipt. At no time was he aggressive or persistent. I think he was genuine and it seemed to be a good cause.
There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal except that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. The cut bled for about 45 minutes. As far as I know, nobody else cut themselves in the apartment.
We felt safe in the apartment and were not robbed, neither did anything disappear. The doors, windows and shutters were in perfect working order. There was never any sign that that the doors, windows or shutters had been tampered with, but neither was there any need to check. The front door had a double lock that was difficult to lock, but we managed. The patio door could not be locked from the outside, only from the inside of the apartment and that is why we chose to use the front door when we left the apartment.
We used to open the shutters during the day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing them.
We would generally have breakfast in the Millenium restaurant, we only dined at the Tapas Bar on two occasions. I remember there was a limit to how many times we could eat at the Tapas Bar.
I would like to add that since January of this year I have received numerous phone calls, messages and visits from the press with relation to the man collecting donations, which led to contact with other persons such as Brian Kennedy, Kate and Gerry McCann. I feel this to be constricting and it is difficult for me to make a more certain decision.
I have always tried to collaborate with the police in every possible form, telephoning them at the first opportunity when the news broke about Madeleine’s disappearance. There have been times when I have felt like a pawn in a chess game.
He may be bleeding for 45 minutes but if he was, he should have been bleeding at accident and emergency lol. Crikey he must have used a lot of toilet paper. Bleeding from a knick on the face would not blood splatter all over the walls, that is caused by BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA.....caused by a knife in the juggler or being shot or punched in the face.....SPLAT.....
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The one Apartment people miss with the dogs is the empty one. There was an alert but it was dismissed......I find that alert one of the interesting along with the others of course but oops musnt go off topic.
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Wishful thinking on that one..
Rather like kate mccanns claim to have 'seen' 6 bodies before PDL and that claim was checked out and summarily dropped. Now that was ridiculous in itself.I've heard some in my time to explain away scents, but this takes the biscuit, since it would never explain the odours detected in the varios places.
It is no more and no less another attempt by people like sadie to clutch at straws.
Can you give us a link to where Kate claims to have had contact with 6 cadavers please.
I don't believe she ever made this claim - and why would she if it wasn't true - as she would know that the police could easily check it out via her work record.
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TimesOnline 10.09.2007
Now where else would such a claim come form in the first place ?
8)-)))
The tooth fairy ?
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No there is evidence someone had died in 5A, and it could be the child.
and where did Scotland Yard actually say she may still be alive? Where there is no body there is always that hope that people cling too....
There is no evidence that anyone died in 5a according to grime...your misunderstanding of the basic facts make all your conclusions invalid
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TimesOnline 10.09.2007
Now where else would such a claim come form in the first place ?
8)-)))
The tooth fairy ?
A newspaper article from 2007? Oh well it must be true then.
If you believe Kate would make a claim like that - which she would know could be checked out by the police in no time - not to mention her boss/colleagues who she worked with in the NHS - who would also know whether it was true or not - then you are really clutching at straws.
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tHE MCCANNS HAVE MADE MANY CLAIMS, SUCH AS THE ABDUCTION, WHICH HAS NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE, LET ALONE FORENSICS TO SUPOPORT IT.
So when it comes to cluthing at straws...........................
Try not preaching. 8((()*/
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tHE MCCANNS HAVE MADE MANY CLAIMS, SUCH AS THE ABDUCTION, WHICH HAS NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE, LET ALONE FORENSICS TO SUPOPORT IT.
So when it comes to cluthing at straws...........................
Try not preaching. 8((()*/
Not clutching at straws..no need to...just stating a fact
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Shouting, hardly.
Just the truth.
As to credability, where's yours ?
Why don't you give your reasons why you think Kate McCann would claim to have been in contact with 6 cadavers - if that was a big fat lie - which she knew would be discovered as soon as her work records were checked?
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Why don't you give your reasons why you think Kate McCann would claim to have been in contact with 6 cadavers - if that was a big fat lie - which she knew would be discovered as soon as her work records were checked?
Simples.
A panic to 'explain' the 'scent' of cadaver, then quickly withdrawn.
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Simples.
A panic to 'explain' the 'scent' of cadaver, then quickly withdrawn.
So where is KM's statement saying that (a) she had made that claim in the first place and (b) that she was now withdrawing it? Where is your evidence?
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So where is KM's statement saying that (a) she had made that claim in the first place and (b) that she was now withdrawing it? Where is your evidence?
Who else would have made the claim in the first place ?
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Who else would have made the claim in the first place ?
Some reporter way back in 2007 when the myths and lies were being churned out daily?
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I find it quite remarkable how quickly some are to poo poo genuine facts in preference to hearsay comments and half truths.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin mixed up the apartments. Apartment 5a is unique in that it is the end apartment with its own private entrance right onto the main road. I have no doubt Tasmin knew what she was talking about, she lived there. Tasmin was a superb witness and for that reason it was expected that attempts would be made to discredit her. That's how the myth creators work.
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
Was his remains brought back to the apartment and waked?
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Some reporter way back in 2007 when the myths and lies were being churned out daily?
Rubbish.
....and the lies spread by the mccanns or their 'close friends or associates' ?
Why would someone do that ?
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I find it quite remarkable how quickly some are to poo poo genuine facts in preference to hearsay comments and half truths.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin mixed up the apartments. Apartment 5a is unique in that it is the end apartment with its own private entrance right onto the main road. I have no doubt Tasmin knew what she was talking about, she lived there. Tasmin was a superb witness and for that reason it was expected that attempts would be made to discredit her. That's how the myth creators work.
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
Was his remains brought back to the apartment and waked?
What clothing ?
Was he wearing it on his death ?
Since if he wasn't where would the contamination come from ?
and likewise the why the detection of scentsover several places, can you account for that ?
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Rubbish.
....and the lies spread by the mccanns or their 'close friends or associates' ?
Why would someone do that ?
Back to the Mikado Stephen. "Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative". As is most of the stuff coming out of the "sausage machine".
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I find it quite remarkable how quickly some are to poo poo genuine facts in preference to hearsay comments and half truths.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin mixed up the apartments. Apartment 5a is unique in that it is the end apartment with its own private entrance right onto the main road. I have no doubt Tasmin knew what she was talking about, she lived there. Tasmin was a superb witness and for that reason it was expected that attempts would be made to discredit her. That's how the myth creators work.
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
Was his remains brought back to the apartment and waked?
Tangible evidence is worth a thousand myths any day. Tasmin's sightings must be viewed in relation to the timeline of events. Tasmin lived there, she wasn't just a visitor for a week like so many of the other witnesses. She knew all the locals, she knew who was out if place, who stood out as unusual.
Could I suggest that those members who have nothing constructive to say should shut up.
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Back to the Mikado Stephen. "Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative". As is most of the stuff coming out of the "sausage machine".
Precisely. 8((()*/
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Tangible evidence is worth a thousand myths any day. Tasmin's sightings must be viewed in relation to the timeline of events. Tasmin lived there, she wasn't just a visitor for a week like so many of the other witnesses. She knew all the locals, she knew who was out if place, who stood out as unusual.
Could I suggest that those members who have nothing constructive to say should shut up.
Who is questioning that Tasmin is a witness.
It has not been established that any clothing returned to the apartment was contaminated, or even 'spread' over several areas.
That would be supposition and not evidence.
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Rubbish.
....and the lies spread by the mccanns or their 'close friends or associates' ?
Why would someone do that ?
If you are claiming that Kate McCann said she had been in contact with 6 cadavers and that she later withdrew that claim - you need to come up with the evidence to prove your claims are true. Changing the subject doesn't do that.
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since the dog alerts have been mentioned repeatedly on this thread, I don't think it's out of place to post this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RSGpilH7e4
From about 2:30 in.
It's only a five minute clip, but really is worth watching.
If the mods think it's OT, maybe it could be moved to a more appropriate thread?
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If you are claiming that Kate McCann said she had been in contact with 6 cadavers and that she later withdrew that claim - you need to come up with the evidence to prove your claims are true. Changing the subject doesn't do that.
You have the link I provided.
Take it or leave it.
Meanwhile, can you provide evidence of abduction, forensically or otherwise ?
....................and evidence that would stand up in court ?
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I find it quite remarkable how quickly some are to poo poo genuine facts in preference to hearsay comments and half truths.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin mixed up the apartments. Apartment 5a is unique in that it is the end apartment with its own private entrance right onto the main road. I have no doubt Tasmin knew what she was talking about, she lived there. Tasmin was a superb witness and for that reason it was expected that attempts would be made to discredit her. That's how the myth creators work.
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
Was his remains brought back to the apartment and waked?
Ok, how's about you do what I did and pick up the phone and call Op Grange Gold Team and ask the question re Tasmin Milburn's silence in relation to where her grandparents did or did not live. You won't like the answer though :)
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Ok, how's about you do what I did and pick up the phone and call Op Grange Gold Team and ask the question re Tamsin Milburn Sillence in relation to where her grandparents did or did not live. You won't like the answer though :)
In her statement Tasmin states that she lived in 5a with her mother and grandmother. As a minor she would have been accompanied to the interview by her mother who would have discussed the matter with her at length. This would also have been checked out by the PJ in order to validate her statement. Where the grandparents lived prior to the grandfathers demise is another issue.
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In her statement Tasmin states that she lived in 5a with her mother and grandmother. As a minor she would have been accompanied to the interview by her mother who would have discussed the matter with her at length. This would also have been checked out by the PJ in order to validate her statement. Where the grandparents lived prior to the grandfathers demise is another issue.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there'
It was her father not her mother who was present at her interview.
Call Op Grange and ask the question re 5a or next door to 5a. :)
BTW the man she saw lurking about was identified as Michael Anthony Green
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You have the link I provided.
Take it or leave it.
Meanwhile, can you provide evidence of abduction, forensically or otherwise ?....................and evidence that would stand up in court ?
So your reply is yet another change of subject. So be it.
Can you first of all provide proof that evidence which may have been in 5A had not been overlooked. Bearing in mind Amaral's comments about the shortcomings of at least one of his forensic officers - and the claim that they were a small police station - and therefore not so extensively equipped. (or words to that effect -haven't got time to look at the moment)
I'll have to read your reply later - must go out now.
Have a pleasant day.
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So your reply is yet another change of subject. So be it.
Can you first of all provide proof that evidence which may have been in 5A had not been overlooked. Bearing in mind Amaral's comments about the shortcomings of at least one of his forensic officers - and the claim that they were a small police station - and therefore not so extensively equipped. (or words to that effect -haven't got time to look at the moment)
I'll have to read your reply later - must go out now.
Have a pleasant day.
Hardly.
I and others have asked that question many times and you have to reply or simply diverted onto another issue.
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Ok, how's about you do what I did and pick up the phone and call Op Grange Gold Team and ask the question re Tamsin Milburn Sillence in relation to where her grandparents did or did not live. You won't like the answer though :)
So SY have this amazing relationship with you? They talk to you and give you info? 8)-)))
WOW ! 8(0(* 8(>((
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there'
It was her father not her mother who was present at her interview.
Call Op Grange and ask the question re 5a or next door to 5a. :)
BTW the man she saw lurking about was identified as Michael Anthony Green
Extract from PJ's final 57-page report
On page 800, the interview with T. M. S. is presented, who saw on two occasions and on several other days, an individual observing the apartment from which MADELEINE disappeared. A photo-fit was created based on the witness' indications . . . diligences were performed which led to the identification of MICHAEL ANTHONY GREEN, who was the target of diverse diligences without incriminatory results, pages 632 to 726 of Volume III, Appendix VI. Beyond this individual, there were other diligences performed at this level, also without useful results for the investigation, as is explained throughout Appendix VI.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id239.html
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So SY have this amazing relationship with you? They talk to you and give you info? 8)-)))
WOW ! 8(0(* 8(>((
They are intererested in anything and I mean anything that can help find out what happened to little Madeleine McCann so are more than happy to discuss scenarios. In this case a question over whether what the dog alerted to could have been related to the death of the Sillence grandfather and would there be any value in them investigating such a scenario further. Op Grange said no as it had been verified that it was the flat next door where the grandfather lived and not 5a.
Give them a bell yourself and ask the same question :)
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I find it quite remarkable how quickly some are to poo poo genuine facts in preference to hearsay comments and half truths.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin mixed up the apartments. Apartment 5a is unique in that it is the end apartment with its own private entrance right onto the main road. I have no doubt Tasmin knew what she was talking about, she lived there. Tasmin was a superb witness and for that reason it was expected that attempts would be made to discredit her. That's how the myth creators work.
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
Was his remains brought back to the apartment and waked?
Perhaps you could ascertain "for sure" that the clothing in which he lay dead in a hospital bed was for a long enough time for cadaverine to form in the first place ...........and that his family kept those same garments, transferring them to the wardrobe and/or enabling them to contaminate sites in and around the apartment?
If you are keen to promote this speculation, it is at least proveable by acquiring information to back it up.
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Extract from PJ's final 57-page report
On page 800, the interview with T. M. S. is presented, who saw on two occasions and on several other days, an individual observing the apartment from which MADELEINE disappeared. A photo-fit was created based on the witness' indications . . . diligences were performed which led to the identification of MICHAEL ANTHONY GREEN, who was the target of diverse diligences without incriminatory results, pages 632 to 726 of Volume III, Appendix VI. Beyond this individual, there were other diligences performed at this level, also without useful results for the investigation, as is explained throughout Appendix VI.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id239.html
That's the one, thank you :)
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They are intererested in anything and I mean anything that can help find out what happened to little Madeleine McCann so are more than happy to discuss scenarios. In this case a question over whether what the dog alerted to could have been related to the death of the Sillence grandfather and would there be any value in them investigating such a scenario further. Op Grange said no as it had been verified that it was the flat next door where the grandfather lived and not 5a.
Give them a bell yourself and ask the same question :)
You seem to be hell bent in muddying the waters Serendipity. Tasmin stated that she stayed in apartment 5a with his mother and grandmother. Nothing you report changes that statement.
It also appears that LC has wiped the files of all information relating to Mr Green for reasons best known to them. We can but imagine however whose best interests have been served by the hidden files.
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You seem to be hell bent in muddying the waters Serendipity. Tasmin stated that she stayed in apartment 5a with his mother and grandmother. Nothing you report changes that statement.
How is posting facts from the files regarding Alfred Schuurmans confirming via Brian Kennedy that it was the flat next door to 5a that the Sillance grandfather lived and not 5a be construed as muddying the waters?
Relaying a conversation with SY which backs this up for my own mind is not muddying the waters either, it is clarifying that there is a very good chance that little Tamsin was confused.
Like I said, you can clear this up once and for all by calling SY yourself.
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I haven't mentioned the grandfather living in 5a. Have you cottoned on yet?
Read my words. Tasmin stayed in 5a with her mum and grandmother.
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Perhaps you could ascertain "for sure" that the clothing in which he lay dead in a hospital bed was for a long enough time for cadaverine to form in the first place ...........and that his family kept those same garments, transferring them to the wardrobe and/or enabling them to contaminate sites in and around the apartment?
If you are keen to promote this speculation, it is at least proveable by acquiring information to back it up.
Now that is an interesting point you make Carew Quote - 'perhaps you could ascertain 'for sure' that the clothing in which he lay dead in a hospital bed was for a long enough time for cadaverine to form in the first place' unquote.
If as you say there needs to be a length of time for cadavarine to form, how long would Madeleine have had to be kept in the apartment for Cadavarine to form on the floor of the bedroom, also on Cuddle Cat?
According to Mr. Grime it is evident straight away after death.
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I haven't mentioned the grandfather living in 5a. Have you cottoned on yet?
Read my words. Tasmin stayed in 5a with her mum and grandmother.
So you're saying that although they owned the flat next door, they stayed in 5A?
I've just spent ages trying to find the Portuguese equivalent of the land registry to try and clear this up, but if you're implying that ownership is irrelevant anyway, I'm just wasting my time.
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Does anyone recall if Mr Grime ever claimed that Eddie alerted to human remains in the form of ashes or is it a case I suspect that cadaverine is destroyed in a crematorium furnace?
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So you're saying that although they owned the flat next door, they stayed in 5A?
I've just spent ages trying to find the Portuguese equivalent of the land registry to try and clear this up, but if you're implying that ownership is irrelevant anyway, I'm just wasting my time.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin would not have discussed staying in that apartment with her family before making that statement. The statement would also have been seen by her parent(s) immediately she made it. The fact that the statement is not followed by a further statement or an additional statement by her mother evidences its validity.
That said, it is very normal in circumstances where someone owns or leases a holiday apartment that the apartment next door is rented by family and especially during the off season.
It would be beneficial to know the historical ownership of 5a and 5b certainly Cariad.
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Now that is an interesting point you make Carew Quote - 'perhaps you could ascertain 'for sure' that the clothing in which he lay dead in a hospital bed was for a long enough time for cadaverine to form in the first place' unquote.
If as you say there needs to be a length of time for cadavarine to form, how long would Madeleine have had to be kept in the apartment for Cadavarine to form on the floor of the bedroom, also on Cuddle Cat?
According to Mr. Grime it is evident straight away after death.
Interesting point Lace 8((()*/
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It is inconceivable that Tasmin would not have discussed staying in that apartment with her family before making that statement. The statement would also have been seen by her parent(s) immediately she made it. The fact that the statement is not followed by a further statement or an additional statement by her mother evidences its validity.
That said, it is very normal in circumstances where someone owns or leases a holiday apartment that the apartment next door is rented by family and especially during the off season.
It would be beneficial to know the historical ownership of 5a and 5b certainly Cariad.
Her father who was separated from her mother was with her at her interviews. Dad may never have visited the apartments so may not have known whether what Tamsin was saying about 5a was true or not so may have felt no need to interject/qualify.
Why did Brian Kennedy feel it necessary to get confirmation from Alfred Schuurmans regarding where the grandfather lived in January 2008 as referenced in Gerry McCann's powerpoint presentation if it is as clear as you are suggesting as to who lived in 5a/5b?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there'
It was her father not her mother who was present at her interview.
Call Op Grange and ask the question re 5a or next door to 5a. :)
BTW the man she saw lurking about was identified as Michael Anthony Green
When somebody buys a rather expensive flat (Mrs McCann here), they never leave it as it was, just painting the walls, a fortiori if they bought it for renting. They'll make a lot of money if and only if everything has to be or look brand new.
It's easy to check the history of a flat in Portugal (as in the UK) and get a list of the successive owners.
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There she goes again. How many times Serendipity, Tasmin stayed in 5a along with mum and gran. Even her dad would know that when she said so to the detectives who interviewed her.
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Now that is an interesting point you make Carew Quote - 'perhaps you could ascertain 'for sure' that the clothing in which he lay dead in a hospital bed was for a long enough time for cadaverine to form in the first place' unquote.
If as you say there needs to be a length of time for cadavarine to form, how long would Madeleine have had to be kept in the apartment for Cadavarine to form on the floor of the bedroom, also on Cuddle Cat?
According to Mr. Grime it is evident straight away after death.
The point was that the clothing worn by the Grandfather as he lay dead in hospital and the circumstances surrounding this speculation about where those garments ended up are actually proveable by investigation.
Maybe you should concentrate on that, since you brought it up.
Do you think the Drs. McCann might have done the research and found the speculation groundless, otherwise we might have heard about it as part of the justification for the alerts.
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Do you think the Drs. McCann might have done the research and found the speculation groundless, otherwise we might have heard about it as part of the justification for the alerts.
Very true ! It couldn't have been worse, though contradictory, than the claim, scientifically proved false, that VOCs disappear after a month.
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The point was that the clothing worn by the Grandfather as he lay dead in hospital and the circumstances surrounding this speculation about where those garments ended up are actually proveable by investigation.
Maybe you should concentrate on that, since you brought it up.
Do you think the Drs. McCann might have done the research and found the speculation groundless, otherwise we might have heard about it as part of the justification for the alerts.
By the look of it SY have dismissed the dogs alerts.
Who knows what Eddie was alerting to, he certainly didn't alert to the clothes when the McCann's were moved to the other apartment. Eddie was sent to search the second apartment and failed to alert to the clothes in that apartment, he later alerted to them in the warehouse, all very strange.
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There she goes again. How many times Serendipity, Tasmin stayed in 5a along with mum and gran. Even her dad would know that when she said so to the detectives who interviewed her.
From Tamsin's statement -
'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside. 2002'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
From Ruth McCann - current owner of 5a -
'The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.
The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.
In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.
Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.
In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.
Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.'
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
Why does Tamsin claim her grandmother owned 5a?
Brian Kennedy himself confirmed that the family owned 5b, not 5a.
Even if Tamsin and her mother ever stayed in 5a, there is absolutely nothing connected with the Sillence family to explain the cadaver alerts in 5a. PJ enquiries proved that no-one had died in 5a prior to Madeleine going missing and if grandad died in hospital, why on earth would his jammies be taken to 5a and not to his own apartment 5b? If grandad was brough back to his home before burial, he would have been taken back to 5b
As I said, strawclutching in the extreme.
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From Tamsin's statement -
'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside. 2002'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
From Ruth McCann - current owner of 5a -
'The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.
The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.
In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.
Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.
In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.
Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.'
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
Why does Tamsin claim her grandmother owned 5a?
Brian Kennedy himself confirmed that the family owned 5b, not 5a.
Even if Tamsin and her mother ever stayed in 5a, there is absolutely nothing connected with the Sillence family to explain the cadaver alerts in 5a. PJ enquiries proved that no-one had died in 5a prior to Madeleine going missing and if grandad died in hospital, why on earth would his jammies be taken to 5a and not to his own apartment 5b? If grandad was brough back to his home before burial, he would have been taken back to 5b
As I said, strawclutching in the extreme.
I do admire you, SerenEdipity.
By law, in Portugal and in France, death clothing is incinerated for salubrity reasons.
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Very true ! It couldn't have been worse, though contradictory, than the claim, scientifically proved false, that VOCs disappear after a month.
I wouldn't scoff Anne -
Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.
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I think the most telling thing about this thread is that dissenters are finally accepting that Eddie definitely alerted to the scent of death in 5a. Why else would they be scrabbling around trying to explain the alerts with such ludicrous scenarios as have been suggested re grandpa's jammies. I must admit though, this latest bout of strawclutching beats seabass down the back of the sofa, Gerry having bad breath or Kate having bacterial vaginosis.
So are you suggesting that the people who actually TRAIN these dogs don't know what they are talking about?
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The last paragraph on that paper says -
7) Training for dogs used in search-and-rescue for lost persons (cadaver dogs) and for general field searching to find visible decomposed remains is generally appropriate and effective for that type of situation, but not for highly specialized situations or to build probable cause based solely upon residual scent.
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And still we wait for a single example of a missing person found alive after a death dog indicated that they weren't.
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So are you suggesting that the people who actually TRAIN these dogs don't know what they are talking about?
Que?
The point I was making is why the need to find all kinds of bizarre excuses to explain away Eddies' alerts if they are of 'no value and are meaningless' according to dissenters on here.
That there is a scramble to do just that, is, in itself, very telling :)
I'm off out for a bit. Have a lovely rest of your afternoon :)
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A flippant approach is taking at face value a post on another forum and bringing it here suggesting a dead mans pajamas could account for a cadaver alert in an apartment that he had never lived in. A flippant approach is not doing your research to verify exactly where that man lived when the information is contained in the files before jumping to wild and illogical conclusions.
We dont know who owned 5A at the time, nor 5B, do we?. Maybe the two apartments were owned by the family? Maybe they were both long term rented?
We just dont know, do we?
But we do know that Tasmin spent long periods (Lived) in 5A. Maybe she spent time in both apartments, but she has an indepth knowledge of 5A ... unless you are calling her a liar.
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I do admire you, SerenEdipity.
By law, in Portugal and in France, death clothing is incinerated for salubrity reasons.
Yes, lots of things are supposed to happen by law in Portugal but that doesn't mean they did and by no means proves the argument in relation to items which the deceased may have come into contact with.
It is a possibility which cannot be discounted.
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I wouldn't scoff Anne -
Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.
Who is scoffing, Lace ?
As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days.
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Why on earth would anyone come to that conclusion? If anyone is scratching at straws or scrabbling around I suggest it is you.
It has never been established what Eddie alerted to and as far as ownership of any apartment is concerned all you have managed to do is show that apartment 5a was bought around 2001. It has no relevance to Tasmin and her mother staying there.
If apartment 5a was purchased by the syndicate in 2001 it could very well be that the take over didn't happen until 2002 as Tasmin recalled and especially if a deceased's estate was involved. Without having sight of the land records most of this is pure speculation.
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We dont know who owned 5A at the time, nor 5B, do we?. Maybe the two apartments were owned by the family? Maybe they were both long term rented?
We just dont know, do we?
But we do know that Tasmin spent long periods (Lived) in 5A. Maybe she spent time in both apartments, but she has an indepth knowledge of 5A ... unless you are calling her a liar.
Good points Sadie. A child never forgets his or her home and for her to mistake an end apartment for a mid apartment is too ridiculous for words.
What are the p.... scared of anyway? Is the jammies theory getting under their skin? @)(++(*
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I do admire you, SerenEdipity.
By law, in Portugal and in France, death clothing is incinerated for salubrity reasons.
What about the solid gold watch and the wedding / signet ring?
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Who is scoffing, Lace ?
As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days.
Well it looked as if you were scoffing at Carana's suggestion that Eddie might have alerted to the scent of blood, even though the blood was not there.
As the dog alerted to the floor and wardrobe where the McCann's would store their dirty washing I find this idea very believable.
In the article I posted the trainers cannot take into account the dog alerts when there is no body as it is mentioned someone could have cut themselves or left a sanitary pad in the area where the dog alerted.
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Lets keep on topic please.
To summarise.
Tasmin claims in her statement to have stayed for extended periods of time in apartment 5a with her mother and grandmother. Nothing we have seen shows it to be otherwise.
It has been suggested that clothing or other possessions which belonged to Tasmin's granddad, who died in hospital, could have been contaminated with cadaver scent and ended up in apartment 5a. Later to be alerted to by EVRD Eddie.
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eddie alerted at the flowerbed..
Would the scent really last that long...outside...wind...rain
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Without agreeing with it, taking the conjecture someone proposed above (previous occupant's clothes stored in wardrobe following death in hospital), this might explain not only Eddie's alert near the wardrobe, but ALSO all Eddies alerts to clothing because those clothes would have acquired scent by contact while in wardrobe (NOT while being worn).
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Without agreeing with it, taking the conjecture someone proposed above (previous occupant's clothes stored in wardrobe following death in hospital), this might explain not only Eddie's alert near the wardrobe, but ALSO all Eddies alerts to clothing because those clothes would have acquired scent by contact while in wardrobe (NOT while being worn).
I cant remember. Was it that wardrobe that cuddlecat was put in? No alert before, but an alert afterwards?
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Lets keep on topic please.
To summarise.
Tasmin claims in her statement to have stayed for extended periods of time in apartment 5a with her mother and grandmother. Nothing we have seen shows it to be otherwise.
It has been suggested that clothing or other possessions which belonged to Tasmin's granddad, who died in hospital, could have been contaminated with cadaver scent and ended up in apartment 5a. Later to be alerted to by EVRD Eddie.
This should also include the distinct possibility that 'cadaver scent' was from another source.
Also, why was the cadaver scent 'spread' around ?
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Further disruption to this thread will be met with sanctions.
Sanction me, no problem. I am just standing up for myself But I just want to know - does that mean sanctions to the moderator who started the insults?
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Further disruption to this thread will be met with sanctions.
What are you waiting for ?
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Without agreeing with it, taking the conjecture someone proposed above (previous occupant's clothes stored in wardrobe following death in hospital), this might explain not only Eddie's alert near the wardrobe, but ALSO all Eddies alerts to clothing because those clothes would have acquired scent by contact while in wardrobe (NOT while being worn).
Can you explain why you don't agree ?
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It is very obvious from the comments that many find this subject a bit uncomfortable but without having all the facts at our disposal I fail to see why.
We don't even know when the grandad passed away relative to Madeleine's disappearance? Given that cadaver scents do not last much beyond a few months I personally cannot see a logical connection.
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Further disruption to this thread will be met with sanctions.
May I politely request that Angelo's comment calling fellow members P I T C H F O R K E R S is edited or removed then please?
Or even, god forbid, met with sanctions?
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May I politely request that Angelo's comment calling fellow members P I T C H F O R K E R S is edited or removed then please?
Or even, god forbid, met with sanctions?
You'd be surprised if masks were removed.
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May I politely request that Angelo's comment calling fellow members P I T C H F O R K E R S is edited or removed then please?
Or even, god forbid, met with sanctions?
That word cannot be posted as it is automatically censored.
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Can you explain why you don't agree ?
IMO the hospital clothes conjecture is good to examine (even if it turns out to be incorrect) because it brings up the process of scent transfer to clothes while unworn in a wardrobe.
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IMO the hospital clothes conjecture is good to examine (even if it turns out to be incorrect) because it brings up the process of scent transfer to clothes while unworn in a wardrobe.
What is the first thing that happens when someone goes into hospital....oh yes, they are put in a hospital gown. 8-)(--)
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What is the first thing that happens when someone goes into hospital....oh yes, they are put in a hospital gown. 8-)(--)
Never had that happen to me except when I was going for an op or a nasty procedure
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Never had that happen to me except when I was going for an op or a nasty procedure
Presumably they just stick you in bed fully clothed....
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Presumably they just stick you in bed fully clothed....
Yep fully clothed in my jamies or my nightie. Haven't you ever been in hospital?
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IMO the hospital clothes conjecture is good to examine (even if it turns out to be incorrect) because it brings up the process of scent transfer to clothes while unworn in a wardrobe.
I didn't ask you if iyo the examination of the "hospital clothes conjecture" was "good" or not !
What I asked was very different : for what reasons don't you a priori agree ?
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Presumably they just stick you in bed fully clothed....
as nasty procedures require ! @)(++(*
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I don't know what passes for patient care in Portugal but in the UK patients normally wear their own clothing. As Sadie already posted, gowns are usually reserved when someone is having tests done or even surgery.
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I don't know what passes for patient care in Portugal but in the UK patients normally wear their own clothing. As Sadie already posted, gowns are usually reserved when someone is having tests done or even surgery.
Anyway whoevers clothes they were in, there was aways the watch and the ring, wedding band or signet ring
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the bottom line is that SY don't agree that the alerts prove Maddie died in the appt...Grime doesn't agree that the alerts prove Maddie dided in the appt...amarals lawyer doesn't agree that the alerts prove Maddie died in the appt...so I think its afact to say that there is no proof that Maddie died in the appt
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the bottom line is that SY don't agree that the alerts prove Maddie died in the appt...Grime doesn't agree that the alerts prove Maddie dided in the appt...amarals lawyer doesn't agree that the alerts prove Maddie died in the appt...so I think its afact to say that there is no proof that Maddie died in the appt
...or to put it another way Dave, who does agree?
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We don't know when this man died but presumably this is on public record.
I will get the Baker Street irregulars onto it...
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Anyway whoevers clothes they were in, there was aways the watch and the ring, wedding band or signet ring
Oh so you KNOW this man possessed all these objects? Were you there?
@)(++(*
besides its a moot point as these are NON POROUS materials so do not come into any equation
8((()*/
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the bottom line is that SY don't agree that the alerts prove Maddie died in the appt...Grime doesn't agree that the alerts prove Maddie dided in the appt...amarals lawyer doesn't agree that the alerts prove Maddie died in the appt...so I think its afact to say that there is no proof that Maddie died in the appt
deleted
Evidence but no PROOF
And SYs words as per Andy Redwood were, there is no clear definitive proof that she is dead, he didnt say there is not a shred of evidence
He certainly does have the dogs in mind! IMO otherwise he wouldnt have used those words
Eta as have all professional knowledgable commentators
8**8:/:
8((()*/
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Ive just been reading back properly and John, you are confusing me as to what your opinion is.
This morning you posted this:
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
then this afternoon you posted this:
It is very obvious from the comments that many find this subject a bit uncomfortable but without having all the facts at our disposal I fail to see why.
We don't even know when the grandad passed away relative to Madeleine's disappearance? Given that cadaver scents do not last much beyond a few months I personally cannot see a logical connection.
Im off to play Candy Crush for a short while, thats normally enough to do my head in!
@)(++(*
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deleted
Evidence but no PROOF
And SYs words as per Andy Redwood were, there is no clear definitive proof that she is dead, he didnt say there is not a shred of evidence
He certainly does have the dogs in mind! IMO otherwise he wouldnt have used those words
Eta as have all professional knowledgable commentators
8**8:/:
8((()*/
It was Grime who said there is no evidence as the alerts do not amount to evidence..he's the expert
so according to Grime there is no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment
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It was Grime who said there is no evidence as the alerts do not amount to evidence..he's the expert
so according to Grime there is no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment
The word you're looking for is intelligence. The dog alerts amount to intelligence. Any resulting forensic back up would've been evidence. In this case they couldn't find it, so what remains is intelligence that cadaverine was present in 5A.
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The word you're looking for is intelligence. The dog alerts amount to intelligence. Any resulting forensic back up would've been evidence. In this case they couldn't find it, so what remains is intelligence that cadaverine was present in 5A.
That's right...theres no evidence..what do you mean by intelligence...I can assure you I have heard of the word...what do you mean by intelligence in this case
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The word you're looking for is intelligence. The dog alerts amount to intelligence. Any resulting forensic back up would've been evidence. In this case they couldn't find it, so what remains is intelligence that cadaverine was present in 5A.
The word intelligence re the dogs has been used several times....do you know who introduced it
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Oh so you KNOW this man possessed all these objects? Were you there?
@)(++(*
besides its a moot point as these are NON POROUS materials so do not come into any equation
8((()*/
Oh, most watch straps are leather. Had you forgotten?
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It was Grime who said there is no evidence as the alerts do not amount to evidence..he's the expert
so according to Grime there is no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment
Yet again, he said...
No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
Which is not the same as no evidence.
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We don't know when this man died but presumably this is on public record.
I will get the Baker Street irregulars onto it...
While they are at it, perhaps they could track down the whereabouts of the cadaverine contaminated deathbed garments.
The Drs. McCann.........( or advisors associated with).........might be a good place to start asking.
With this find to latch on to and handily explain every single alert during the days following the deployment of the EVRD.........................do you think they would have blustered away with their seabass, nosebleeds, sweaty sandals, shaving related injury etc. in preference to investigating this gem and trumpeting their findings from the rooftops were it to have been in any way useful to them?
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Yet again, he said...
Which is not the same as no evidence.
yes it is..what do you think he means then
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While they are at it, perhaps they could track down the whereabouts of the cadaverine contaminated deathbed garments.
The Drs. McCann.........( or advisors associated with).........might be a good place to start asking.
With this find to latch on to and handily explain every single alert during the days following the deployment of the EVRD.........................do you think they would have blustered away with their seabass, nosebleeds, sweaty sandals, shaving related injury etc. in preference to investigating this gem and trumpeting their findings from the rooftops were it to have been in any way useful to them?
The McCanns don't have to track down anything...they are not suspects and not accused of any crime. They don't have to explain the alerts...grime arleady has
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The McCanns don't have to track down anything...they are not suspects and not accused of any crime. They don't have to explain the alerts...grime arleady has
Read it properly.........the Baker Street irregulars are doing the tracking down, apparently!
(Why did the Drs McCann offer any explanations in the first place, then?)
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Read it properly.........the Baker Street irregulars are doing the tracking down, apparently!
(Why did the Drs McCann offer any explanations in the first place, then?)
I think they tried to find a reason in the first place because they were told lies about the dogs ..once they knew the truth they knew that an explanation is not necessary
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Ive just been reading back properly and John, you are confusing me as to what your opinion is.
This morning you posted this:
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
then this afternoon you posted this:
It is very obvious from the comments that many find this subject a bit uncomfortable but without having all the facts at our disposal I fail to see why.
We don't even know when the grandad passed away relative to Madeleine's disappearance? Given that cadaver scents do not last much beyond a few months I personally cannot see a logical connection.
Im off to play Candy Crush for a short while, thats normally enough to do my head in!
@)(++(*
My opinion is the latter one. If you read what I posted this morning it was a comparison based on what we are told of Eddie's abilities. I simply stated that there is as much reason to believe a connection with the deceased grandfather as there is to the claim that Madeleine died in the apartment. I added that at least in the former there was a body.
In my afternoon post I pointed out that we can but speculate since the facts surrounding the property occupation are unclear. I also reiterated the point made by Anne that cadaver scent fades over time so a connection going back several years is tenuous at best.
Hope you're winning at Candy Crush!
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Why go straight forward when you can go meandering ?
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About this hypothetical clothes from hospital conjecture.
Is the idea that scent was tranferred FROM that clothing ONTO the top surface of the first shelf above the floor?
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[.... quote deleted ...]
If the scent doesn't last long how can we understand the "alert" in the flower bed
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who would abduct a corpse?
Necrophiliacs, scavengers and other cannibals. In this case the motive could have only been to avoid an autopsy that would have revealed the manner of death.
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how could they possibly argue that the death of Madeleine did not occur in the apartment?
They didn't argue, as parents they knew better, no alternative, no debate, doxa.
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If the scent doesn't last long how can we understand the "alert" in the flower bed
Over 3 months wind rain etc would naturally diminish the outdoor strength?
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Over 3 months wind rain etc would naturally diminish the outdoor strength?
From what I have read the scent would not last outside so this would have to be a false alert
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My opinion is the latter one. If you read what I posted this morning it was a comparison based on what we are told of Eddie's abilities. I simply stated that there is as much reason to believe a connection with the deceased grandfather as there is to the claim that Madeleine died in the apartment. I added that at least in the former there was a body.
In my afternoon post I pointed out that we can but speculate since the facts surrounding the property occupation are unclear. I also reiterated the point made by Anne that cadaver scent fades over time so a connection going back several years is tenuous at best.
Hope you're winning at Candy Crush!
Unless there is some reason to believe that the Grandfather died in his own clothes and that the family wanted those clothes kept and that they were kept in 5a then I think there is a lot less reason to suspect dead Grandfather than dead Maddie.
P.S. If anyone has information as to cause of death, that may impact the probabilities.
Oh well, time for a double-backward somersault through a hoop while whistling the "Star Spangled Banner".
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Over 3 months wind rain etc would naturally diminish the outdoor strength?
Are you dreaming ?
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Extract from PJ's final 57-page report
On page 800, the interview with T. M. S. is presented, who saw on two occasions and on several other days, an individual observing the apartment from which MADELEINE disappeared. A photo-fit was created based on the witness' indications . . . diligences were performed which led to the identification of MICHAEL ANTHONY GREEN, who was the target of diverse diligences without incriminatory results, pages 632 to 726 of Volume III, Appendix VI. Beyond this individual, there were other diligences performed at this level, also without useful results for the investigation, as is explained throughout Appendix VI.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id239.html
I thought this deserved reposting. 8((()*/
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Are you dreaming ?
Do you believe the scent would have survived Anne?
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"In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm)
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@Anna
"At the end of April 2007 his (Alfred's) 12 year old daughter had spotted ...."
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@Anna
"At the end of April 2007 his (Alfred's) 12 year old daughter had spotted ...."
Thank you Pegasis ,
I didn't completely understand it then, but he mentioned a friend which I assumed to be Tamsins Dad.
If you are correct as I am sure you are, I can find no statement from his daughter
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Oh yea sadie but rings dont have leather on them and I doubt a dead or alive persons watches and rings were scraped over the verandah, flower bed, behind th sofa, cuddle cat,over clothes, [... abusive removed ...]
>>>>
As charming as ever, I see, Red.
No rings do not have leather on them but they often have body gunk behind them and if forced off skin cells attached to them,
8((()*/
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Why go straight forward when you can go meandering ?
Yep, why do you meander?
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If the scent doesn't last long how can we understand the "alert" in the flower bed
Sometimes we have been told that the scent lasts years and sometimes we are told it doesn't last long.
Seems it is altered to suit the argument. Why would that be ?
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"In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm)
In the dog video, late at night in darkness, just after the flowerbed alert and the balcony alert, the handler on video says they will return to examine this location in the morning when it is light. IMO what the PJ/UK team did on their return that next morning was request taking by forensic officers of samples of climbing plant branches, and samples of fibres from the wall where the climbing palnt is (some pink IIRC?).
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In the dog video, late at night in darkness, just after the flowerbed alert and the balcony alert, the handler on video says they will return to examine this location in the morning when it is light. IMO what the PJ/UK team did on their return that next morning was request taking by forensic officers of samples of climbing plant branches, and samples of fibres from the wall where the climbing palnt is (some pink IIRC?).
Yes I had the same questions. I will have a look and see what else I can find about the garden evidence. I would think that the body had been in the flower bed for the scent to be there. The possible fibres from pyjamas on the wall is interesting? These garden alerts are a very interesting part for me and needs working on.
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Sometimes we have been told that the scent lasts years and sometimes we are told it doesn't last long.
Seems it is altered to suit the argument. Why would that be ?
For example
http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/
Eugene Zapata sold the house in 1997. In 2001, he moved to Nevada. He rented a storage facility in Sun Prairie that year and listed its contents as “boxes, mixture of son’s and parent’s stuff.”
According to the search warrant:
On April 13, 2005, police left a message for Eugene Zapata with his wife in Nevada. The next day, the locker’s key was returned to U-Store Mini Storage in Sun Prairie. The empty locker remained locked until Aug. 10 and 11 when police opened it.
Dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains inside and around the locker, the search warrant indicates. That prompted a search of four acres in rural Juneau County owned by Zapata since 1978.
Zapatas wife vanished in 1976. In 2005 the dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains
Almost 30 years later !
Please dont tell me that the Grime dogs wouldn't be able to detect the odour of death from a couple or so years earlier
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Sadie, there is a big difference between cadaver scent and actual body matter shed as part of the decomposition process. I suggest it was the latter which the dogs detected in the Zapata case.
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Yes I had the same questions. I will have a look and see what else I can find about the garden evidence. I would think that the body had been in the flower bed for the scent to be there. The possible fibres from pyjamas on the wall is interesting? These garden alerts are a very interesting part for me and needs working on.
The fibres were sent to INML. Nothing of any significance.
3483 to 3487 Forensic report 23 November 2007 on Eeyore pyjamas (+ photographs)
13 Processos Vol XIII Pages 3483 to 3487
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3483
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3484
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3485
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3486
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3487
Forensic report No. 200711800-FI
Requested by:: Portimao DIC
NUIPC 201-07 Galgs
Correspondence number: 3609 of 31st October 2007
Examination initiated : October 2007
Material for Examination
I. Six collection kits of woven fibres which present the following references relating to the area of vestige collection:
1. 'Inferior part of wall' and 'Pip'.
2. 'Superior part of wall' and 'PSP'
3. 'Middle part of wall' and 'PMP'
4. 'Middle part of wall' and 'PMP'
5. 'Superior part of wall' and 'PSP'
6. 'Inferior part of wall' and 'Pip'.
Each kit comes inside an orange coloured envelope, each of these envelopes are inside a paper envelope with the following references, amongst others 'Vestige No. 26, Apartment 5 A, OC resort, P da L. Garden wall of the apartment, 2007/08/02'.
II - A pyjama camisole, pink in colour with motifs stamped and sewn on to the front (the latter of material, buttons and messages) (see photographs 1 and 2). Three labels can be seen, one of them has the following references, amongst others: 'Top 100% COTTON EXCLUSIVE OF TRIMMINGS'.
III - White coloured pyjama bottoms with stamped designs in pink shades (different tones), green and yellow and with a trim at the bottom of each leg (see photo 3 and 4). Three labels can be observed, one of them with the following reference, amongst others 'Bottom 100% COTTON EXCLUSIVE OF TRIMMINGS'.
REQUEST
We request the examination of the samples collected from the garden wall with the aim of carrying out the 'search and identification of eventual fibres and their comparison with the two parts of the pyjamas similar to those the girl was wearing when she disappeared'.
OBSERVATIONS AND TESTS CARRIED OUT
With the objective of identifying the fibres from the searches for samples from the garden wall, it was proceeded to identify the prime material of the pyjamas, from which we had previously collected reference samples from both the top and the bottom. Identification was done using an optical microscope, the following results were obtained:
Pyjama camisole:
The front was made up of white base thread and external pink thread.
- Prime material of the white thread: cotton and synthetic fibre (very pigmented).
- Prime material of the pink thread: cotton (the colouring was not visible by microscope).
The back of the top consisted of pink coloured thread
- Prime material of the pink thread: cotton (the colouring was not visible by microscope).
The Pyjama bottoms:
The material of the pyjama bottoms consisted of white coloured thread.
- Prime material of the thread: cotton
Observations using a stereoscopical magnifier and an optical microscope
With the objective of comparing eventual textile fibres collected from the wall with the fibres from the pyjamas, a search was made of the textile fibres (synthetic white fibres and white and pink cotton fibres) from the samples collected for examination. The search was carried out using a stereoscopical magnifier and an optical microscope, pink and white cotton fibres having been selected as well as white synthetic fibres for subsequent comparison.
Comparison Microscope
The fibres selected were compared to the fibres from the pyjamas using an optical comparison microscope. The following results were obtained:
- No synthetic fibres were detected that were compatible with the pyjama fibres.
- In relation to the cotton fibres, although numerous white cotton fibres were detected in all the samples, in none of them were vestiges detected that enabled discriminatory comparative analyses (such as for example, vestiges of stamping).
CONCLUSION
The analysis of the samples collected from the garden wall of the apartment of the OC yielded the following results:
- No synthetic fibres compatible with the fibres received for comparison from the pyjamas were found.
- Numerous white cotton fibres were found. However, this result should not be considered to be significant, given that according to studies of distribution and persistence of textile fibres it should always be possible to find fibres of different types and colours on any surface, white cotton fibres being very common and without discriminatory parameters.
- In addition, the interval of time that has passed between the events being investigated and the collection of samples (out in the open air) means the existence of fibres from the date of the events is of very low probability.
Note: The material remains archived at the SPL.
Lisbon, 23rd November 2007
Signed
Superior Specialist Machado Area Chief Monteiro
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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For ages you have been mentioning sex tissues in the MCCANN case that could explain Eddie's alerts in the 5A. Do you admit that it was just a suggestion and that no such tissue was found in the 5A ?
Nobody died in that apartment before or after the McCann.
If there was death scent and one person is missing....
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Nobody died in that apartment before or after the McCann.
If there was death scent and one person is missing....
Cadaverscent can be present where no cadaver has ever been.
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Nobody died in that apartment before or after the McCann.
If there was death scent and one person is missing....
You need to read Grimes report
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stranger abduction is probably similar in both countries
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From the document posted by Carana above:
"We request the examination of the samples collected from the garden wall ..... and their comparison with the two parts of the pyjamas similar to those the girl was wearing when she disappeared"
The investigation is assuming that all M+S eeyore pyjamas are made of the same material?
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From the document posted by Carana above:
"We request the examination of the samples collected from the garden wall ..... and their comparison with the two parts of the pyjamas similar to those the girl was wearing when she disappeared"
The investigation is assuming that all M+S eeyore pyjamas are made of the same material?
Why wouldn't they be, pegasus?
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Why wouldn't they be, pegasus?
If a company buys rights to use a trademark image on clothing, it is possible the company might produce for example pure cotton pyjamas with that logo on, and maybe another year part-synthetic pyjamas with that logo on.
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If a company buys rights to use a trademark image on clothing, it is possible the company might produce for example pure cotton pyjamas with that logo on, and maybe another year part-synthetic pyjamas with that logo on.
Yes, good question.
But the McCanns will know when the pyjamas were bought, so presumably the pyjamas would be in keeping with others made that year.
But it is a good point - there is no certainty the pyjamas were the same, unless this question was raised.
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Yes, good question.
But the McCanns will know when the pyjamas were bought, so presumably the pyjamas would be in keeping with others made that year.
But it is a good point - there is no certainty the pyjamas were the same, unless this question was raised.
IMO it's likely there were manufactured more than one version of MS child eeyore pyjamas.
Maybe different versions used identical textiles, maybe not, I dont know.
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IMO it's likely there were manufactured more than one version of MS child eeyore pyjamas.
Maybe different versions used identical textiles, maybe not, I dont know.
That is a possibility Pegasus, but M&S were well known for their cotton Tots Jammies and undies. I wouldn't have put anything but cotton next to my babies' skin. However it's a long time ago now since I had babies around, so maybe mums are different now.
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That is a possibility Pegasus, but M&S were well known for their cotton Tots Jammies and undies. I wouldn't have put anything but cotton next to my babies' skin. However it's a long time ago now since I had babies around, so maybe mums are different now.
The pyjamas which the PJ obtained from MS (for purpose of comparision forensics), were cotton except for the base textile of the top which was a cotton/synthetic mix.
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The pyjamas which the PJ obtained from MS (for purpose of comparision forensics), were cotton except for the base textile of the top which was a cotton/synthetic mix.
It also depends on what type of printing was on them which could be screenprinted, polyester or polyurethane type, I don't really know, but check out their website for tots jammies and see if they use another material with same designs. It could be the same suppliers. The Eyore wont be in fashion now though.
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The pyjamas use for fibre tests by the Portuguese lab (photos in files) look different compared to the pyjamas shown in Germany, so there are two variations of manufacture IMO.
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The pyjamas use for fibre tests by the Portuguese lab (photos in files) look different compared to the pyjamas shown in Germany, so there are two variations of manufacture IMO.
I would have thought Kate would have bought them together but they could still be different. I'm surprised she bought two sets the same with the small gap in ages, it must have been confusing at bedtime. I will have a closer look later
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Re the "previous occupant's hospital clothing" conjecture does Eddie's NON-barking in the north bedroom of the apartment prove that room is clean? I guess Eddie-supporters would say "yes", and Eddie-detractors would say "no" ?
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Re the "previous occupant's hospital clothing" conjecture does Eddie's NON-barking in the north bedroom of the apartment prove that room is clean? I guess Eddie-supporters would say "yes", and Eddie-detractors would say "no" ?
I think the search dogs are wonderful, but they can't be taken as gospel, when there is no other evidence of a victim. They are meant to find, not give evidence and as we have just discussed there is a fair chance that both he and Keela alerted to blood. I wonder why he died so young.
Sorry I went off topic
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Those who consider Eddie a waste of time presumably accuse him not only of false positives but also of false negatives?
Like he might go in a room where someone for example a hypothetical pre-2007 occupant had passed away, and fail to alert?
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Those who consider Eddie a waste of time presumably accuse him not only of false positives but also of false negatives?
Like he might go in a room where someone for example a hypothetical pre-2007 occupant had passed away, and fail to alert?
Like all working dogs - they 'work' only when instructed to by their handler. The rest of the time they are just 'ordinary' dogs.
You don't see sheep dogs permanently rounding up sheep 24/7. They work only when they are told to - and they stop when they are told to as well.
I haven't noticed anyone saying the dogs are a waste of time. They are brilliant IMO. But they have not provided any proof that anyone at all - let alone Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A - and it is the claim that they have done that which is being disputed imo. Anyone who thinks they have provided proof is disputing what Martin Grime has told us about his dogs.
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Like all working dogs - they 'work' only when instructed to by their handler. The rest of the time they are just 'ordinary' dogs.
You don't see sheep dogs permanently rounding up sheep 24/7. They work only when they are told to - and they stop when they are told to as well.
I haven't noticed anyone saying the dogs are a waste of time. They are brilliant IMO. But they have not provided any proof that anyone at all - let alone Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A - and it is the claim that they have done that which is being disputed imo. Anyone who thinks they have provided proof is disputing what Martin Grime has told us about his dogs.
Impressed by your sensible post.
However am puzzled why not a single "pro" poster has picked up on the easy proof I posted that the cat was not signalled by Eddie.
Much more importantly, the easy disproof of the bizarrely illogical notion that the 2 adult clothing signals incriminate the sometimes wearer of those two items, attracts the interest of exactly zero "pro" posters.
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Impressed by your sensible post.
However am puzzled why not a single "pro" poster has picked up on the easy proof I posted that the cat was not signalled by Eddie.
Much more importantly, the easy disproof of the bizarrely illogical notion that the 2 adult clothing signals incriminate the sometimes wearer of those two items, attracts the interest of exactly zero "pro" posters.
Sorry Pegasus - I'm not sure what you mean - could you clarify please.
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Impressed by your sensible post.
However am puzzled why not a single "pro" poster has picked up on the easy proof I posted that the cat was not signalled by Eddie.
Much more importantly, the easy disproof of the bizarrely illogical notion that the 2 adult clothing signals incriminate the sometimes wearer of those two items, attracts the interest of exactly zero "pro" posters.
We had a thread on the clothes inspection ...
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We had a thread on the clothes inspection ...
We have several but this is a good starting point.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3065.msg33790#msg33790
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We have several but this is a good starting point.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3065.msg33790#msg33790
Thanks for that Angelo.
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Impressed by your sensible post.
However am puzzled why not a single "pro" poster has picked up on the easy proof I posted that the cat was not signalled by Eddie.
Much more importantly, the easy disproof of the bizarrely illogical notion that the 2 adult clothing signals incriminate the sometimes wearer of those two items, attracts the interest of exactly zero "pro" posters.
Grime was in no doubt Eddie signalled the toy. He instructed it should be forensically examined. It never was ...
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Grime was in no doubt Eddie signalled the toy. He instructed it should be forensically examined. It never was ...
But it was packed away with the clothing and taken to the Gym - where it was NOT alerted to.
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Another previous owner who states how dark it was outside of the Apt and the light was not working on the side or by the back door.
This Lady is a surgical assistant?
There is also another incident of bleeding in a former holidaymaker in 5a where the child required stitches
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 40-41
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD
WITNESS TESTIMONY OF JUNE HUGHES
Occupation: Surgical Assistant
This statement, consisting of three pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 29 April 2008
Signature:
I am the above referenced person and live at the address previously given to this police.
On the 14th of April of 2007 my partner Carlo D'AMROSIO and I were on holiday in Praia da Luz, Portugal. We have booked a reservation with Thomas Cook and were to stay in the Mark Warner Ocean Club resort.
Carlo and I travelled to the Glasgow airport directly to Faro.
When we arrived at the resort, we were given apartment 5A. There were still cleaning personnel in there when we arrived. They allowed us to enter. We checked and realized that we had not been given a key to the apartment and Carlo went to the reception to collect one.
I found the apartment very good. We arrived on Saturday and this night noticed that the blinds on the patio side door which gave way to the pool zone did not close. It appeared that someone had lifted them too much and the mechanism did not dislodge in order to shut them (page1). We reported this abnormality to the reception that same night. We reported this immediately because we found that the apartment could be at risk if it was not possible to close the door blinds. The apartment was also vulnerable for the fact that the entryway light (side of the street) was hanging and did not function. This made the entryway very dark. It was off from the street with a small parking zone between the street and the apartment.
Even though we communicated this issue of the blind, we did not expect them to rapidly address the issue. We were surprised when on Sunday morning a functionary came to fix the blind. The patio door blind was on the outside of the patio door. We used the principal entrance (next to the street) and would lock the patio door from the interior.
During our stay I do not remember having cut or hurt myself. It is possible that Carlo cut himself whilst shaving but I don't remember this.
Nothing was taken from our apartment and I did not notice anything suspect during our stay. I noticed that the gardeners would work on the garden close to the apartment 'pool-side 'three mornings (page 2) during our stay. The cleaning personnel would come very day.
I remember that the key to the apartment was a bit unusual. It was round and with cut segments. We noticed that the cleaning personnel knocked on the door once and would then enter in the apartment. In this sequence, we left the door always closed with the key in the lock. The next morning, the cleaning woman knocked on the door and entered normally independent of the door being locked with the key in the interior of the lock.
As far as I recall, the living woman sofa (to the right of the entry across the patio door) was slightly removed from the wall, around 60 cm.
We were not accompanied by children to Praia da Luz but noticed that the children seemed to have free access to the restaurant and were always very welcome. We would normally eat in different restaurants when we holidayed but would breakfast in the apartment and if I am not mistaken, lunched in our apartment.
We slept in the principal room where the blind was initially broken. We never took any food in the Tapas Bar. I do not know Gerry or Kate McCann and only heard of them after their daughter went missing. We returned on the 21st of April of 2007.
This statement is made by me and is truthful in accordance with my understanding.
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Here is another who obviously bled
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 44 - 46
Witness statement
FAWKES; Claire Louise
Occupation: Teacher
Date: 22 nd April 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to at the address above where I live with my husband S**** and daughter R*** aged 3 ½.
At Easter my family had two weeks holiday. I do not remember the exact date we travelled but I know it was a Saturday after Easter. We travelled to the OC, P da L in the Algarve in Portugal.
We had never stayed at a MW resort before but the facilities in relation to child care and sporting activities were attractive. We travelled from Gatwick to Faro and were transferred to the resort by MW reps. The holidays were booked as a complete package through MW.
Upon arrival we were allocated an apartment identified as G5 A or something similar. It was the corner apartment on the ground floor of a block of two or three storeys. Our apartment had two bedrooms and a patio with a door that opened onto the terrace opposite the swimming pool, restaurant and OC children’s playing area. The other entrance led onto the parking area.
During the holidays we would occasionally place R*** in the crèche when we were doing other activities. On the Wednesday or Thursday of the second week of our holiday I received a phone call from a MW employee saying that R*** had fallen in the crèche and had cut her chin. When I arrived at the club she had almost stopped bleeding, but even so and through precaution we took her to a doctor in P da L, who put in some stitches. I do not remember if she bled again after this or whether she did in the apartment, but it is a possibility. However nobody else injured themselves or died during the holiday.
I was not robbed during the holiday and none of our possessions disappeared. I never detected the presence of anyone strange near the apartment. R*** slept in the bedroom whose window looked over the parking area. It had a window which I think we never opened and a metal shutter that covered the entire window on the outside, but which was controlled from the inside of the bedroom either electronically or by a belt that was pulled. It was nearly always closed, but on occasions we would open it to have more light. As far as I can remember the shutter worked perfectly well. We never had a bad experience with the windows or doors.
In order to enter and leave the apartment we would always use the front door that led onto the parking area given that the patio door could only be locked from the inside.
When you entered into the living room from the patio, there was a coffee table opposite with a sofa parallel to the kitchen. I do not remember whether the sofa was pushed against the wall. I think there was sufficient space to pass behind the sofa and the dining table.
I made a sketch which I showed as proof to CLF and which I delivered to DC Wright. We did not move any of the furniture in the apartment.
As I have already said we travelled to Portugal with our daughter R*** who slept in the back bedroom, opposite the pool area. I used to refer to her bedroom as the lilac room because the bedclothes and curtains were lilac.
We would generally walk to the MW restaurant at a distance of 5 or 10 minutes to have breakfast. We would normally have lunch in the apartment.
During the first week of the holidays we would return to the same restaurant for dinner. I can’t remember what the restaurant was called. During the second week we would sometimes dine at the Tapas. My husband and I would have dinner out each night. While we were out we would hand Ruth over to the care of MW babysitters. The normal procedure was to dress her in pyjamas at about 19.00 and at 19.30 take her to the place near to the reception. Ruth would stay in the care of MW staff until they (children) were ready to sleep. If they were tired, there were beds available for the children to sleep in. We would collect R*** on out return to the apartment at about 21.30 – 22.00. This service was included in the holiday package and was available until 23.00.
We never left R*** on her own. When she was not with us she was in the organised care of someone who looked after the children.
On the Friday before our return home, my husband had gone to the beach leaving R*** and I in the apartment. The keys were also in the apartment but I couldn’t find them, so I felt unable to take R*** to the crèche.
I was worried and went to the terrace to see if I could spot S****. It was at this moment that I saw three road sweepers in the immediate area. They all appeared to be staring in my direction and I felt they were observing me. I had wondered whether to leave the apartment open whilst I took R*** to the crèche but from the moment that I felt observed, this idea lost its appeal. They were all men and wearing overalls that reminded me of surgical outfits. I do not remember anymore about them.
I handed a CD to DC 4064 HOLLIDAY on 15h45 of 22nd April 2008 containing some pictures of our holidays at the MW resort. It was referenced as CLF2.
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Here is another who obviously bled
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 44 - 46
Witness statement
FAWKES; Claire Louise
Occupation: Teacher
Date: 22 nd April 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to at the address above where I live with my husband S**** and daughter R*** aged 3 ½.
At Easter my family had two weeks holiday. I do not remember the exact date we travelled but I know it was a Saturday after Easter. We travelled to the OC, P da L in the Algarve in Portugal.
We had never stayed at a MW resort before but the facilities in relation to child care and sporting activities were attractive. We travelled from Gatwick to Faro and were transferred to the resort by MW reps. The holidays were booked as a complete package through MW.
Upon arrival we were allocated an apartment identified as G5 A or something similar. It was the corner apartment on the ground floor of a block of two or three storeys. Our apartment had two bedrooms and a patio with a door that opened onto the terrace opposite the swimming pool, restaurant and OC children’s playing area. The other entrance led onto the parking area.
During the holidays we would occasionally place R*** in the crèche when we were doing other activities. On the Wednesday or Thursday of the second week of our holiday I received a phone call from a MW employee saying that R*** had fallen in the crèche and had cut her chin. When I arrived at the club she had almost stopped bleeding, but even so and through precaution we took her to a doctor in P da L, who put in some stitches. I do not remember if she bled again after this or whether she did in the apartment, but it is a possibility. However nobody else injured themselves or died during the holiday.
I was not robbed during the holiday and none of our possessions disappeared. I never detected the presence of anyone strange near the apartment. R*** slept in the bedroom whose window looked over the parking area. It had a window which I think we never opened and a metal shutter that covered the entire window on the outside, but which was controlled from the inside of the bedroom either electronically or by a belt that was pulled. It was nearly always closed, but on occasions we would open it to have more light. As far as I can remember the shutter worked perfectly well. We never had a bad experience with the windows or doors.
In order to enter and leave the apartment we would always use the front door that led onto the parking area given that the patio door could only be locked from the inside.
When you entered into the living room from the patio, there was a coffee table opposite with a sofa parallel to the kitchen. I do not remember whether the sofa was pushed against the wall. I think there was sufficient space to pass behind the sofa and the dining table.
I made a sketch which I showed as proof to CLF and which I delivered to DC Wright. We did not move any of the furniture in the apartment.
As I have already said we travelled to Portugal with our daughter R*** who slept in the back bedroom, opposite the pool area. I used to refer to her bedroom as the lilac room because the bedclothes and curtains were lilac.
We would generally walk to the MW restaurant at a distance of 5 or 10 minutes to have breakfast. We would normally have lunch in the apartment.
During the first week of the holidays we would return to the same restaurant for dinner. I can’t remember what the restaurant was called. During the second week we would sometimes dine at the Tapas. My husband and I would have dinner out each night. While we were out we would hand Ruth over to the care of MW babysitters. The normal procedure was to dress her in pyjamas at about 19.00 and at 19.30 take her to the place near to the reception. Ruth would stay in the care of MW staff until they (children) were ready to sleep. If they were tired, there were beds available for the children to sleep in. We would collect R*** on out return to the apartment at about 21.30 – 22.00. This service was included in the holiday package and was available until 23.00.
We never left R*** on her own. When she was not with us she was in the organised care of someone who looked after the children.
On the Friday before our return home, my husband had gone to the beach leaving R*** and I in the apartment. The keys were also in the apartment but I couldn’t find them, so I felt unable to take R*** to the crèche.
I was worried and went to the terrace to see if I could spot S****. It was at this moment that I saw three road sweepers in the immediate area. They all appeared to be staring in my direction and I felt they were observing me. I had wondered whether to leave the apartment open whilst I took R*** to the crèche but from the moment that I felt observed, this idea lost its appeal. They were all men and wearing overalls that reminded me of surgical outfits. I do not remember anymore about them.
I handed a CD to DC 4064 HOLLIDAY on 15h45 of 22nd April 2008 containing some pictures of our holidays at the MW resort. It was referenced as CLF2.
Interesting!
I'd never read that statement before ...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easter+2007&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=368kU_-bO-6Yigb6toDABQ
ETA: In fairness, I suppose that could have been Easter 2008 ...
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These were the Former holidaymakers in 5A This is the husband.
The date is for the interview in Leics
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 47 – 48
Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Statement
Simon Andrew Fawkes
Occupation: Computer technician
Date: 22nd April 2008
Signature ___________________________________________
I am married to Claire FAWKES and we have a daughter called R*** aged 3 ½. Last year I planned and reserved a holiday with MW in Portugal. I knew that they have good services and meet all the needs that we wanted for our family holiday. I made a two week booking, half board in the P da L resort in the Algarve.
We travelled from Gatwick on Saturday 31st March 2007 directly to Faro and were transported by minibus to the resort. We returned home on Saturday 14th April 2007.
The holiday was quite pleasant in spite of the fact that R*** suffered a cut to the chin at the crèche, the holidays passed peacefully.
Apart from R**** having fallen whilst under the care of MW nothing was stolen or missing from the apartment, nobody died in the apartment during our stay.
.
While we stayed in the apartment we were never victims of robbery or loss of our personal possessions, neither did we lose any object whilst we were in Portugal.
In my opinion the resort is a safe place and I never felt the presence of anyone strange or notice that anyone was watching our apartment.
With regard to the doors and windows I considered them to be safe, although I had some problem in closing the shutters in the bedroom where Claire and I slept – this was the bedroom facing the patio and the pool area. I remember that the shutter in R**** bedroom worked well and we would close it during the day to make sure she slept better.
At no time during our stay did I feel that the windows and doors had been forced or that there could have been any trespass on the property.
We would normally use the wooden door that led to the parking area in order to access the apartment, occasionally we would use the patio door – if Claire or I remained in the apartment. If we all left we would lock the patio door and use the wooden door.
As far as I can remember, there were two sofas in the living room area. One smaller sofa which was on the right when you entered by the patio door – the sofa was under the window, slightly at a distance from the wall – in order to have access to the curtains I think. The large sofa was directly opposite us when we entered by the patio door. I made a small sketch of the living room which was delivered as proof ref SAJF(1) to DC 4064 HOLLIDAY at 18h30 22 April 2008.
R*** was on holiday with us and during our stay she slept in the bedroom with two beds facing the parking area. I remember that there was a window which was totally covered by a rolling shutter.
We would have breakfast and dinner in the local restaurant, although sometimes we dined at the Tapas. We would have lunch in the apartment – generally at the dining table.
R*** was with us or at the crèche – sometimes in the mornings, at times during the afternoon.
She would also go to the night crèche so that she could go to sleep at a reasonable time. We would go out for dinner and upon our return to the apartment we would pick her up. Normally she was never at the crèche for more than a few hours.
We were satisfied with the care that R*** received in the crèche and she seemed to like being there.
I remember that the apartment number was 5 A.
This statement was made by me and is in accordance with my knowledge.
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There was 4 others between McCanns moving out of 5A and the dogs coming in. They were never interviewed by the looks of it. Why? when all the others previous to the Mc Canns were. Strange since we know nothing of their stay.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The DCCB got wind of the possible arrival of certain Englishmen from an information gathering organisation (CRG) supposedly with an assignment to clean places and things associated with the family. Looking into this possibility, the following data was obtained:
- The 'flower' villa was occupied by the family from 2 July through 9 September 2007; the contract was effective from 1 July and the key was returned to the letting agent on 10 September by the wife of an Anglican 'pastor' who practised in Luz.
- That lady later confirmed the delivery of the key and that while in her possession no-one had asked for it nor had she seen anything abnormal at the villa.
- A female journalist from ITV (UK) wished to rent the villa to make some films; her request was declined, the Dutch property owner, present in the property on 11 September, had already permitted Dutch friends of his to live there, and had authorised new shrubs to be planted in the garden.
- It would seem that the new work was not done as the Portuguese gardener and the owner had some difficulty in communication, due to the language barrier.
- On 10 September the house cleaner performed her usual chores and placed two or three boxes of 'dossiers' in the garage, which boxes were later collected by the same lady who had returned the key. When the family were in residence the cleaner was always in the company of a friend or family member.
- The Scenic was rented on 27 May with an additional driver, Cameron, and, at the end of August, Wright was added to the contract. It was returned to the rental offices on 23 September by an unnamed person described as six-foot, short grey hair, 60-65 years, whose signature on the delivery note is illegible.
- The odometer on return was 14,443 km; it had been 3,114 at the start, so the vehicle had travelled 11,229km. [NOTE: Arithmetically, that should read 11,329km]
- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
- On 20 September, two men and a women, claiming to be from "Sky News", attempted to force open the external blinds of the front bedroom of apartment 5A and were asked to leave the area; on 25 September a three Spanish persons - again two men and a woman - were found with cameras on the patio balcony of apartment 5B. Having no identification, but being in possession of film equipment, they were believed to be journalists.
- Cleaning staff in Ocean Club were persistently accosted by journalists, often with offers of money, to provide access to apartment 5A. They were always refused but the personal particulars of the pests were not noted.
- With respect to possible sightings of the father at two buildings near/next to the Luz cemetery, various apartments were available in those buildings; it could not be ascertained which, if any, apartment may have been of interest.
- With respect to the property Vila D'Arte, at which the father had been reportedly seen at some time during July, and to which the family (adults and two children) had travelled in a Citroen C3 or Renault Clio, it had been the permanent residence of persons originating from Holland and/or UK for some 4 to 5 years; the (then-)present occupants hired it through an Internet site from 24 to 29 September.
- The local informal agent for that property had always understood that only friends or family of the owners were granted access to it.
- Back at 5A of the Ocean Club, on 26 September someone forced up the external blinds of the front bedroom to an oblique angle. There appeared to be no attempt to force open the window. The security guard stated between 21:00 and 21:05 he had done the 'rounds' of the block, then walked down to the supermarket and back again whereupon he found the damage which he called in immediately.
- He and a colleague from the same security detail had conversed shortly before 21:00 noting that neither had seen any strangers other than two Canadian television journalists, a man and a woman, who had been seen at a nearby bar.
- Given the limited damage and that there had been many people at that location [presumably during the previous days and all authorised] there was no attempt to retrieve fingerprints, but inquiries were made of TV crews and journalists in and around Luz and Lagos, without result.
Processos Vol XI Pages 2945 - 2952
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
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Got it
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id315.html
-snipped -
First the villa they stayed in afterwards
1. With help from the Winkworth Estate Agency in Lagos, it was established that the residence occupied by the McCann couple in Rua da Flores, lot 27 – Vivenda Vista do Mar, P da L was effectively occupied by them on 02-07-2007, whilst the contract shows that the hire period began on 1st July, according to the copy of the contract we were given.
- The McCanns' departure took place on 09-09-2007 and the keys to the house were returned the following day (10-09-2007) to the Winkworth office in Lagos by an English woman named Susan who was the wife of the Anglican vicar who celebrated mass in the P da L church.
- With the help of P**** C***** from the Winkworth agancy it was established that after the McCanns left the villa the agency was contacted by a female individual called M***** C++++ from ITV, who claimed she wanted to rent the villa for a few days with the aim of making some films, her request was denied.
- In contact with the owner of the villa, Mr A***** M***** of Dutch nationality he said that at the moment the villa was being occupied by some friends of his, of Dutch nationality, surname S************, the husband named R********, the wife J*****, R being the director of the Museo de Arte Antiga.
-snipped -
Now the people who stayed in 5A after the abduction with dates
3. In relation to the McCanns' stay at the OC, the following was checked: Date of occupation of apartment 5 A 28-04-2007 and the departure date was registered on 05-05-2007, being certain that from 04 – 05 they did not stay in the apartment. They entered apartment 4G on 04-05-2007 and left on 03-07-2007.
- After the disappearance apartment 5 A was occupied by the following individuals: 12-06-2007 – 19-06-2007 by R and F. F****** (friends of the owners), from 28-06-2007 – 12-07-2007 by SR, W & CF, 12-07-2007 to 19-07-2007 by BSP and JFP, 19-07-2007 – 26-07-07 by MMS family.
Hope this helps Ferryman
ETA Seems that Anna beat me to it. 8((()*/
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Last week we were discussing the grandfather who lived in apartment 5b who died in hospital and it was suggested that cadaver scent could have been brought back to apartment 5a in garments or personal possessions and contaminated cupboards. I now learn that Eddie also alerted to ash which you bring back from a crematorium. Could that have been the source of the alerts in 5a?
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Jassi
Do you know what Promotor Veritatis means?
Yes, but attempting to smear and discredit a witness doesn't bring you any nearer the truth
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Yes, but attempting to smear and discredit a witness doesn't bring you any nearer the truth
Thers no smearing or discrediting...just trying to get the truth out there and dispel lies and myths
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Thers no smearing or discrediting...just trying to get the truth out there and dispel lies and myths
It was a witness statement, not a myth and the attempt was to discredit the witness, not to expose the truth.
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Are you suggesting that the GNR, the PJ, Leics Police AND SY are all wrong and incompetent?
Seriously?
I don't find it a coincidence that Andy has gone from the Ocean Club, all over Portugal, half of Europe, and ended back up at the Ocean Club, suspect wise.
And let's not forget the involvement of the CPS which alone implies the perps are British.
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Are you suggesting that the GNR, the PJ, Leics Police AND SY are all wrong and incompetent?
Seriously?
I don't find it a coincidence that Andy has gone from the Ocean Club, all over Portugal, half of Europe, and ended back up at the Ocean Club, suspect wise.
And let's not forget the involvement of the CPS which alone implies the perps are British.
I think you might be right about the last sentence
However, if SY are to get to the bottom of this mystery, I am completely behind them investigating everything in depth. Everything
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I think you might be right about the last sentence
However, if SY are to get to the bottom of this mystery, I am completely behind them investigating everything in depth. Everything
Good.
Stop denigrating Amaral and the PJ then.
IF Op Grange is not just another whitewash, you are in for some rocky times.
A genuine investigation will end up at the same place the PJ did - they already have.
Amaral knew Tannerman was bs and Smithman was the One.
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I haven't followed the whole of this thread... but concerning the title:
Re: The other occupants of Apt 5a before and after the McCanns visit.
Some of the occupants who'd occupied the apartment prior to the disappearance were interviewed, although not all, and I'm not aware that any of the post-disappearance ones were officially interviewed as part of the PJ process.
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I haven't followed the whole of this thread... but concerning the title:
Re: The other occupants of Apt 5a before and after the McCanns visit.
Some of the occupants who'd occupied the apartment prior to the disappearance were interviewed, although not all, and I'm not aware that any of the post-disappearance ones were officially interviewed as part of the PJ process.
Nothing in the files that I can see. It may be because they are friends and relatives of the owner, but if they were interviewed, the files were withheld.
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I haven't followed the whole of this thread... but concerning the title:
Re: The other occupants of Apt 5a before and after the McCanns visit.
Some of the occupants who'd occupied the apartment prior to the disappearance were interviewed, although not all, and I'm not aware that any of the post-disappearance ones were officially interviewed as part of the PJ process.
Were the people who occupied the apartments after the McCanns and before the arrival of the dogs not interviewed by the PJ, then that is an appalling error on their part in my opinion.
It is not as though the PJ could not easily get hold of their details or contact them during the Rogatory Process.
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Were the people who occupied the apartments after the McCanns and before the arrival of the dogs not interviewed by the PJ, then that is an appalling error on their part in my opinion.
It is not as though the PJ could not easily get hold of their details or contact them during the Rogatory Process.
Why are you assuming they were not contacted/interviewed ?
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Why are you assuming they were not contacted/interviewed ?
Where have you read that I am assuming any such thing?
Not in my posts, you haven't unless, of course, you have misread them.
I simply made the point that if they were not interviewed it would be an appalling failure on the part of the PJ.
The question arises because there is no record of any interview of those people. That in itself could suggest that those people may well not have been interviewed, though it would not be proof of that fact.
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I haven't followed the whole of this thread... but concerning the title:
Re: The other occupants of Apt 5a before and after the McCanns visit.
Some of the occupants who'd occupied the apartment prior to the disappearance were interviewed, although not all, and I'm not aware that any of the post-disappearance ones were officially interviewed as part of the PJ process.
I still cant find anything on the occupants of 5A after the disappearance and the McCanns left.
Do you know if there is a thread regarding Missing statements and information.
I looked but maybe missed it
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I still cant find anything on the occupants of 5A after the disappearance and the McCanns left.
Do you know if there is a thread regarding Missing statements and information.
I looked but maybe missed it
No such thread to my knowledge, either, Anna - but a good point.
Suspect a thread about the holes in this case would be a long one!
It does seem very significant that the movements of occupants post-McCann do not appear to have been documented formally, even though there must be plenty information available from Mark Warner and other sources.
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No such thread to my knowledge, either, Anna - but a good point.
Suspect a thread about the holes in this case would be a long one!
It does seem very significant that the movements of occupants post-McCann do not appear to have been documented formally, even though there must be plenty information available from Mark Warner and other sources.
I have noticed a few missing statements and some reports with missing info, cant remember all right now, but people might be able to help each other, locate the information all on one thread.
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I have noticed a few missing statements and some reports with missing info, cant remember all right now, but people might be able to help each other, locate the information all on one thread.
Interesting idea, Anna. You mean just as a reference thread, or for discussion?
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Interesting idea, Anna. You mean just as a reference thread, or for discussion?
Not sure about that. I suppose the reference would be swamped with discussion, but if there is a query it needs to be discussed.
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... We have no idea who or what stayed in 5A or what may have occurred in 5A after the departure of the McCanns? ...
The original PJ/LP investigation interviewed every family that stayed in apartment 5A between 4th May and 31st July 2007.
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The original PJ/LP investigation interviewed every family that stayed in apartment 5A between 4th May and 31st July 2007.
Where did you find that Pegasus? and where are the statements?
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- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
3. In relation to the McCanns stay at the OC, the following was checked: Date of occupation of apartment 5 A 28-04-2007 and the departure date was registered on 05-05-2007, being certain that from 04 - 05 they did not stay in the apartment. They entered apartment 4G on 04-05-2007 and left on 03-07-2007.
- After the disappearance apartment 5 A was occupied by the following individuals: 12-06-2007 - 19-06-2007 by R and F. F****** (friends of the owners), from 28-06-2007 - 12-07-2007 by SR, W & CF, 12-07-2007 to 19-07-2007 by BSP and JFP, 19-07-2007 - 26-07-07 by MMS family.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm)
"The apartment 5A, was registered at a certain time to 4 people. In 2006 after the death of Michael William McCann, Ruth Margaret McCann become the sole owner."
http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/05/ruth-mccann-paid-e40000-for-photos-of-5a/ (http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/05/ruth-mccann-paid-e40000-for-photos-of-5a/)
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Thank you Carana, We still have no statements from the other guests in 5A yet. The cadaver if it was cadaver scent got there somehow, or the doggie was wrong this time.
There are a few in the files from occupants in the two-month or so period prior to the disappearance (not all), and none that I have found from the post-disappearance ones. I presume that the Met have since contacted them as part of their review.
A previous occupant could have cut a foot walking on rocks and left sandals or a bandaid lying around which might have only been picked up by the cleaning lady when they left prior to locking up the place. Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood, but Grime doesn't say that of Eddie. Unless innocent explanations are ruled out (which wasn't Grime's job), it seems somewhat simplistic to simply assume that Eddie's reaction was necessarily to someone who'd died and therefore it had to be the missing little girl.
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There are a few in the files from occupants in the two-month or so period prior to the disappearance (not all), and none that I have found from the post-disappearance ones. I presume that the Met have since contacted them as part of their review.
A previous occupant could have cut a foot walking on rocks and left sandals or a bandaid lying around which might have only been picked up by the cleaning lady when they left prior to locking up the place. Keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood, but Grime doesn't say that of Eddie. Unless innocent explanations are ruled out (which wasn't Grime's job), it seems somewhat simplistic to simply assume that Eddie's reaction was necessarily to someone who'd died and therefore it had to be the missing little girl.
I think the former occupants statements are on here. Blood can be found in most homes, but not Cadaver. On saying that the house I am in now had a lady die in it, but we had it gutted and practically rebuilt. There again anyone working in the medical profession who used the flat, after the McCanns would be worth knowing about.
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It seems there is not a record of DNA from residents in 5A after the McCanns and before dog inspection.
This report shows only the men before Mccanns being checked for DNA re_ Semen on blanket. This DNA checked out with a 2 year old. so not semen
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10-10.html
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The original PJ/LP investigation interviewed every family that stayed in apartment 5A between 4th May and 31st July 2007.
A source for that would be very useful, also a link to the statements made by those people.
I don't believe any such statement about such interviews exists in the Pamalam PJ Files and I don't believe such statements are in the Pamalam PJ Files either but am prepared to be corrected on both matters.
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Nope! Nothing at all on guests who stayed between 5th may to 31st July.
Request from PJ to LP They are the 6 people PJ wanted DNA profile checked with specimens sent to Birmingham. All resident before McCanns.
VII - Interview to the adult users of the apartment (G5A) from which MADELEINE MCCANN went missing, who stayed there before 28th April (the date on which the MCCANNs arrived there). They should be subject to a buccal swab and hair sample collection (only the below UNDERLINED individuals :
* The FAWKES family, namely SIMON ANDREW , CLAIRE LOUISE AND daughter RUXX ELXXXXXXX, 62 EvXXXXXX LaXX, WOXXXXXXX, BEXXXXXXX, RGXX 4XX, UK.
* CARLOS DAMBROSIO and JUNE HUGHES, 53x MoXXXXXX DRXXX, Glasgow, GXX 1XX, UK.
* The GORDON family, namely PAUL ANTHONY, SALEIGH LOUISE and two children - CHXXXXX HAXXXXXX and JAXXXXX ISXXXX - 2 DaXXXXXXX, WIXXXXX, Hants, PXXX 6XX, UK.
The aforementioned persons should be asked the following questions :
* Did any incident happen during your stay at the apartment, i.e. was anyone injured or did anyone die ?
* Did you ever suffer theft or did any of your belongings disappear from the apartment ?
* Did you ever detect the presence of anyone strange inside or around your apartment ?
* Did the windows, as well as the doors and shutters close well ? Did you at any time detect whether any of these accesses to your apartment had been broken in ?
* How did you usually go into your apartment ?
* Was the sofa in the living-room - on the right side after entering through the patio door - leaning against the wall or a little away from it ? If it was away from the wall, how far ?
* Do you have any children ? Did you take them to Portugal with you ? Where did you and your children sleep ?
* Where did you usually take your meals, i.e. breakfast, lunch and dinner ?
* Did you ever leave your children alone ?
* Did you use the "Kids Club" service ?
* Did you detect anything worth mentioning during your stay ?
* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in view of the previous replies.
topic471.html
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post2863.html#p2863
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I still cant find anything on the occupants of 5A after the disappearance and the McCanns left.
Do you know if there is a thread regarding Missing statements and information.
I looked but maybe missed it
If they had been interviewed, they'd have been on the rog list, I would have thought.
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Is it known for sure that the place was occupied immediately afterwards ?
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Is it known for sure that the place was occupied immediately afterwards ?
I'm not sure when the key was handed back the first time.
- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
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Its very mysterious that those people were not on any statement list or asked for mouth swabs to check DNA profile.
Surely their DNA should have been checked even if only for elimination.
They are the most likely to have x contaminated, given the time scale of cadaver Scent.
I also noticed that before the McCanns there was a surgical assistant stayed at 5A .Depending on her duties there is a possibility of X contamination there too. Even a small part of a body being removed is cadaver
Even extracted teeth are used to train cadaver dogs as they are easy to obtain. I have put a video on another thread which shows Eddie in the Jersey childrens home and he barked approx. 10 times..............Surely not 10 bodies. I think he barks at all body fluids. Am I correct?
There are so many possibilities as to the dogs alerts.
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Its very mysterious that those people were not on any statement list or asked for mouth swabs to check DNA profile.
Surely their DNA should have been checked even if only for elimination.
They are the most likely to have x contaminated, given the time scale of cadaver Scent.
I also noticed that before the McCanns there was a surgical assistant stayed at 5A .Depending on her duties there is a possibility of X contamination there too. Even a small part of a body being removed is cadaver
Even extracted teeth are used to train cadaver dogs as they are easy to obtain. I have put a video on another thread which shows Eddie in the Jersey childrens home and he barked approx. 10 times..............Surely not 10 bodies. I think he barks at all body fluids. Am I correct?
There are so many possibilities as to the dogs alerts.
Which is precisely what Grime tells us.
Also as the McCanns moved into the Payne's apartment during the night of the 4th May - and stayed there until they were given another apartment - then as they were wearing the same clothes they'd worn on the evening of the 3rd, one would think that if there was any 'contaminant' on them - it would have been transferred - and Eddie would have alerted in the Payne's apartment too.
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Which is precisely what Grime tells us.
Also as the McCanns moved into the Payne's apartment during the night of the 4th May - and stayed there until they were given another apartment - then as they were wearing the same clothes they'd worn on the evening of the 3rd, one would think that if there was any 'contaminant' on them - it would have been transferred - and Eddie would have alerted in the Payne's apartment too.
Yes Benice.
you are correct McCanns moved to Paynes and afterwards to another Apartment, but no alerts in either.
So where did these alerts come from? It is a puzzle that has something to do with 5A, 5A residents or the reasons the dog alerted.