UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧 Happy Christmas 🧑🎄
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on March 02, 2012, 05:21:12 PM
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Another issue which has concerned me for a while now and that is that 25 rounds were fired yet not one of these bullets casings contained Sheila Caffell's fingerprints?
Anyone who has ever loaded a magazine will know that loading bullets can be a messy job. To do so with manicured finger nails must be a nightmare...maybe the ladies on the forum can attest to this.
Every bullet is coated in an oil designed to act as both a lubricant and an anti-corrosion agent. The perfect base for laying down fingerprints.
The complete absence of any identifiable prints on the bullets is further evidence that Sheila Caffell did not load that rifle.
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Another issue which has concerned me for a while now and that is that 27 rounds were fired yet not one of these bullets casings contained Sheila Caffell's fingerprints?
Anyone who has ever loaded a magazine will know that loading bullets can be a messy job. To do so with manicured finger nails must be a nightmare...maybe the ladies on the forum can attest to this.
Every bullet is coated in an oil designed to act as both a lubricant and an anti-corrosion agent. The perfect base for laying down fingerprints.
The complete absence of any identifiable prints on the bullets is further evidence that Sheila Caffell did not load that rifle.
Most definately, loading the bullets would not be a problem but doing so without damaging ones nails is another thing. Am I right in saying that this would have been done in a hurry as well which makes the whole exercise even more improbable that Sheila did it.
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I saw a forensics report recently where the examiner was trying to make the point that a woman with long manicured nails would have found it difficult to get past the trigger guard in order to pull the trigger. It seems that there would have been nail damage if Sheila had in fact fired that gun 27 times as some would have us believe. I will look out that document for you all.
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The poor lass didn't know one end of the rifle from the other. Maybe, just maybe, if she had been in a fit of temper she could have lifted the loaded rifle but to reload it twice and fire off 25 rounds is just beyond the pale. Such a thing needed premeditation and we can be sure that this was not the case.
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The fact that there were no fingerprints found on the bullets can only mean one thing and it that Jeremy is telling the truth......about the gloves. Only some person wearing gloves would result in negative prints. The same applies to a rifle which should have had Jeremy Bambers prints all over it because he was in reality the only one who used it regularly and by his own admission did so the previous evening. Only a glove wearing individual would have effectively wiped the rifle of all prints.
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Of course Sheila could have done it ... as the police were told quote "Sheila regularly went target shooting with the family".
And who told the police that? Jeremy Bamber of course outside WHF on the night of the murders.
Everyone else in Sheila's life swore that she hated guns, never handled guns and as Colin witnessed, she wouldn't even let her boys have toy guns.
That abolsute lie by Bamber proves to me he is as guilty as sin.
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Too right Tim. That's another couple of good points we have now, the absence of any prints on the shell casings and the fact that a girl with long nails would find it very difficult to fire any shots because of the trigger guard and doing so would have damaged the nail on the index finger of her right hand.
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I read in Colin's book that June was beaten that night aswell as Neville?
Does admin., John or anyone else have any information on this as I don't believe I have read this anywhere before?
Cheers ;D
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Not as such yet but I did read in a police statement that June had bloodied finger marks on her neck.
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I have wondered about this too as in the book I read apparantly Julie Mugford said to Ann following identification of the bodies that they were all badly bruised, Nevill was the worst.
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I don't know about June being assaulted or battered but she had been shot in the face and more specifically between the eyes. I am not surprised that Julie felt they were badly bruised.
I was thinking about the mechanism whereby Sheila could have shot herself and you have to remember that she would have to had pushed the trigger with her thumb. Since in theory she would have been the last person to touch the trigger you would have thought they they would have been able to recover at least a partial thumbprint from it. I will recheck the forensics but from memory there was no such print on the trigger.
This to me is yet further evidence that Sheila did not pull the trigger that morning since it was probably someone wearing gloves who not only didn't leave any prints but also managed to rub clean what was there already.
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I read in Colin's book that Bamber had tried to get Sheila to load a magazine with bullets sometime prior to the murders. Sheila laughed it off and told Bamber no. Colin thinks Bamber was trying to get her prints on some bullets. How callous is that!
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It was all part of his plan to try and incriminate her. It is quite apparent that he was planning that dreadful deed for some time and he needed to wait for just the right moment. With Sheila and the boys staying over at the farm the stage was set for him to spring his trap. What a callous thug.
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It was all part of his plan to try and incriminate her. It is quite apparent that he was planning that dreadful deed for some time and he needed to wait for just the right moment. With Sheila and the boys staying over at the farm the stage was set for him to spring his trap. What a callous thug.
Don't forget that JB acted out of character by asking Sheila when she was next taking the boys to the farm. He had never shown the slightest interest before.
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It was all part of his plan to try and incriminate her. It is quite apparent that he was planning that dreadful deed for some time and he needed to wait for just the right moment. With Sheila and the boys staying over at the farm the stage was set for him to spring his trap. What a callous thug.
Don't forget that JB acted out of character by asking Sheila when she was next taking the boys to the farm. He had never shown the slightest interest before.
That is really interesting Shona. That is the first time I have heard that Bamber asked Sheila when she would be bringing the boys to White House Farm. It points very clearly to the awful truth about how Bamber's calculating, scheming and callous mind really works.
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It was all part of his plan to try and incriminate her. It is quite apparent that he was planning that dreadful deed for some time and he needed to wait for just the right moment. With Sheila and the boys staying over at the farm the stage was set for him to spring his trap. What a callous thug.
Don't forget that JB acted out of character by asking Sheila when she was next taking the boys to the farm. He had never shown the slightest interest before.
That is really interesting Shona. That is the first time I have heard that Bamber asked Sheila when she would be bringing the boys to White House Farm. It points very clearly to the awful truth about how Bamber's calculating, scheming and callous mind really works.
I agree Ian. Besides what Bamber had told Julie over the previous year there are many other examples of Bamber's preparation for the murders. In the eyes of the law 'malice aforethought' makes any crime far worse than a spur of the moment action with no preparation. In my opinion it's this callousness that truly make Bamber's murders 'evil almost beyond belief'.
There can be no redemption for Bamber!
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It was all part of his plan to try and incriminate her. It is quite apparent that he was planning that dreadful deed for some time and he needed to wait for just the right moment. With Sheila and the boys staying over at the farm the stage was set for him to spring his trap. What a callous thug.
Don't forget that JB acted out of character by asking Sheila when she was next taking the boys to the farm. He had never shown the slightest interest before.
That is really interesting Shona. That is the first time I have heard that Bamber asked Sheila when she would be bringing the boys to White House Farm. It points very clearly to the awful truth about how Bamber's calculating, scheming and callous mind really works.
I agree Ian. Besides what Bamber had told Julie over the previous year there are many other examples of Bamber's preparation for the murders. In the eyes of the law 'malice aforethought' makes any crime far worse than a spur of the moment action with no preparation. In my opinion it's this callousness that truly make Bamber's murders 'evil almost beyond belief'.
There can be no redemption for Bamber!
Absolutely Tim. the premeditation, plotting and planning involved here is virtually Machevellian.
This also points to the very real danger that Bamber must never have any contact with innocent members of the public. He represents a very clear and present danger.
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Every bullet is coated in an oil designed to act as both a lubricant and an anti-corrosion agent. The perfect base for laying down fingerprints.
The complete absence of any identifiable prints on the bullets is further evidence that Sheila Caffell did not load that rifle.
The lack of fingerprints on spent bullets proves no such thing. It wasn't until 2008 that techniques to extract fingerprint evidence from spent bullets were developed.
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Introduce yourself Baz, thanks
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Every bullet is coated in an oil designed to act as both a lubricant and an anti-corrosion agent. The perfect base for laying down fingerprints.
The complete absence of any identifiable prints on the bullets is further evidence that Sheila Caffell did not load that rifle.
The lack of fingerprints on spent bullets proves no such thing. It wasn't until 2008 that techniques to extract fingerprint evidence from spent bullets were developed.
This is true Barry, but in 1985 they still had methods for extracting fingerprints that were every bit as advanced as they are in 2012, (the imaging and recording has advanced) They used 'superglue' inside an airtight chamber. The glue would be heated and fumes released. The fumes come to rest on the any latent fingerprint and would highlight it clearly. This method was extremely effective particularly if you have 24 to choose from!
They did not find a single fingerprint from Sheila Caffell and only ONE on the rifle that she was meant to kill five people with. Considering Jeremy Bamber's own admission that he used the rifle the day before it is safe to assume that the rifle had almost certainly been wiped clean. Which beggars the question; why would a woman in the full grip of a psychotic breakdown,wipe a rifle clean?
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Hi Starryian.
Techniques for extracting fingerprints have advanced since 1985. The superglue method is fine when there is a fingerprint to find, but when heated the sweat deposit that is a fingerprint will vaporize. Research papers suggest it was only in 2006 that scientists identified it would be possible to retrieve prints from spent bullets, and in 2008 that a technique was developed by Northampton police & the University of Leicester.
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Hi Starryian.
Techniques for extracting fingerprints have advanced since 1985. The superglue method is fine when there is a fingerprint to find, but when heated the sweat deposit that is a fingerprint will vaporize. Research papers suggest it was only in 2006 that scientists identified it would be possible to retrieve prints from spent bullets, and in 2008 that a technique was developed by Northampton police & the University of Leicester.
OK yup. But dont you find it odd that nothing was discovered?
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I find many elements of the case incredible, but I dont find the lack of fingerprints on bullets to be incredible for reasons already stated.
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I find many elements of the case incredible, but I dont find the lack of fingerprints on bullets to be incredible for reasons already stated.
What do you find incredible?
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What is the blue forum doing? Bridget is clearly correct about the "gun moving" nonsense. Even Rochy can't see it? NOTHING has moved, just the camera angle and shadowing. Good grief.
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OK, for starters I find it incredible that trainer firearms officers, those who we would expect to be the coolest of the cool mistook the body of a 6 foot 4 inch tall man for a female, and incredible that Essex police have withheld substantial amounts of documents (or even destroyed documents so soon after the crime). I find it incredible that there is debate about whether Sheila Cafell's hand was moved when it is obvious her entire body is in different positions between photographs - hands my slip, but dead bodies don't move on their own.
Photo on the left, 2 blood spots are seen by Sheila's right knee. Photo on the right shows 2 blood spots are now in line with her thigh and there is more blood splatter by her right knee. The body, not the hand, has been moved between photos.
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
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OK, for starters I find it incredible that trainer firearms officers, those who we would expect to be the coolest of the cool mistook the body of a 6 foot 4 inch tall man for a female, and incredible that Essex police have withheld substantial amounts of documents (or even destroyed documents so soon after the crime). I find it incredible that there is debate about whether Sheila Cafell's hand was moved when it is obvious her entire body is in different positions between photographs - hands my slip, but dead bodies don't move on their own.
Photo on the left, 2 blood spots are seen by Sheila's right knee. Photo on the right shows 2 blood spots are now in line with her thigh and there is more blood splatter by her right knee. The body, not the hand, has been moved between photos.
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
Hallo, Barry. Do you find it incredible that Sheila could move from the kitchen to the bedroom with a shattered throat, and not bleed down the front of her nightdress? Or cough out some blood? Or swallow some blood?
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
Hallo again, Barry!! Can I just say (can't say it on the blue forum because I'm banned) that Mike saying that Jeremy is/was no liar is bollocks, because he broke into the caravan park, kept the dosh and LIED. The general consensus on the blue forum is that Sheila shot herself in the throat in the kitchen, then when no one was looking, ran upstairs and threw herself on the bed. This is a biological impossibility. Her throat would have been full of blood, she would have gagged and coughed, and the blood would have poured downwards, on her nightdress and legs. And would have covered her face.
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OK, for starters I find it incredible that trainer firearms officers, those who we would expect to be the coolest of the cool mistook the body of a 6 foot 4 inch tall man for a female, and incredible that Essex police have withheld substantial amounts of documents (or even destroyed documents so soon after the crime). I find it incredible that there is debate about whether Sheila Cafell's hand was moved when it is obvious her entire body is in different positions between photographs - hands my slip, but dead bodies don't move on their own.
Photo on the left, 2 blood spots are seen by Sheila's right knee. Photo on the right shows 2 blood spots are now in line with her thigh and there is more blood splatter by her right knee. The body, not the hand, has been moved between photos.
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
Groan..........I am a little tired of reeling this one out Barry so forgive me for sounding a little long in the tooth on this point. Nevill was found in a sitting position in the kitchen head down in a coal scuttle. All that could be seen of him was the top of his head. His grey hair hanging down and matted with blood. A police officer peering through the dark kitchen window thought it was the body of a woman and reported it over his radio mike (ONE DEAD WOMAN IN THE KITCHEN). The firearms team then entered the house and discovered it was actually a man and reported it as such (ONE DEAD MAN IN THE KITCHEN); the dispacher put 2 and 2 togther and thought it was a man AND a woman. Just a simple piece of miscommunication and nothing more. Something that Bamber supporters have leapt on endlessly until some bright spark discovered the truth of the matter.
However, this highlights perfectly just how much a point can be misconstrued or twisted to suit a claim of innocence. It has now become part of the fabric of the case and taken as fact by newcomers to it.
The supporters will throw many of these type of errors and try to prove Bamber's innocence with them.
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
Hallo again, Barry!! Can I just say (can't say it on the blue forum because I'm banned) that Mike saying that Jeremy is/was no liar is bollocks, because he broke into the caravan park, kept the dosh and LIED. The general consensus on the blue forum is that Sheila shot herself in the throat in the kitchen, then when no one was looking, ran upstairs and threw herself on the bed. This is a biological impossibility. Her throat would have been full of blood, she would have gagged and coughed, and the blood would have poured downwards, on her nightdress and legs. And would have covered her face.
And no amount of Grahame's ill-informed anger will negate that. Hallo by the way, Grahame!! I know you read this stuff.How long will you last this time? 2 days? Ever thought about having something original to say? Or are you content with being Mike's polly parrot?
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
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OK, for starters I find it incredible that trainer firearms officers, those who we would expect to be the coolest of the cool mistook the body of a 6 foot 4 inch tall man for a female, and incredible that Essex police have withheld substantial amounts of documents (or even destroyed documents so soon after the crime). I find it incredible that there is debate about whether Sheila Cafell's hand was moved when it is obvious her entire body is in different positions between photographs - hands my slip, but dead bodies don't move on their own.
Photo on the left, 2 blood spots are seen by Sheila's right knee. Photo on the right shows 2 blood spots are now in line with her thigh and there is more blood splatter by her right knee. The body, not the hand, has been moved between photos.
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
So what Barry ? There were many reasons to remove the gun from Sheila. The TFT had to make the gun safe for a start? Are you under the impression that the doctor didnt examine her? To do so means you invariably have to move her body to check for vital signs. Does this make Bamber any less innocent..............erm no.
I suspect from your post you certainly know more about the case than you are letting on. If you support Bamber.....no problem we gladly accept people from both sies of the divide. Just be honest that's all we ask.
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They say on the blue forum that sheila, after shooting herself in the throat, ran upstairs and read the bible before shooting herself again, does that sound plausible to you? No, sorry i think theyre saying that the police delivered the 2nd shot.
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
Actually, if you look at that first shot, it doesn't work. If Sheila intended that shot to be effective, she wouldn't have done it to the side of her neck. She would have put the gun under her chin, or in her mouth. Why shoot herself to the side of her throat?
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Thats me done....night all xx
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They say on the blue forum that sheila, after shooting herself in the throat, ran upstairs and read the bible before shooting herself again, does that sound plausible to you? No, sorry i think theyre saying that the police delivered the 2nd shot.
Quite, Andrea,
the theory is totally ludicrous and without any foundation. I also believe that it speaks volume about their desperation to try to distance the real culprit from that rifle. They have tried all manner of stupid explanations, none of which bares any scrutiny. A little bit like the ''conversation with someone inside the house' crap. Seen on a document and totally twisted to suit their purpose. However, these comical interpretations are now well known. Every single reason they give for Bamber's innocence is nothing more than twisted interpetations of the evidence to suit their own purpose. It is interesting to watch when they twist a new piece and become all smug and self-satified about it only to told that the factual and logical interpretation proves otherwise. >@@(*&)
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
Actually, if you look at that first shot, it doesn't work. If Sheila intended that shot to be effective, she wouldn't have done it to the side of her neck. She would have put the gun under her chin, or in her mouth. Why shoot herself to the side of her throat?
That is a really good point Shona,
I never considered that. Why would someone, if they were going to kill themselves, shoot themselves in a place that misses all their vital organs??? The question is rhetorical and we know why, dont we Shona 8((()*/
Fantastic point Shona 8@??)(
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Starryian ...not sure why you are groaning about rolling out old news, you invited the conversation. You seem to be jumping to all sorts of conclusion about what I am thinking - no need to concern yourself with the 1 or2 bodies in the kitchen debate, you asked me what I find incredible, and whether it was dark kitchen (was it, 7.30 on an August morning, other reports talk of the kitchen light being on?) or not, to mistake a large body of a farmer for a woman is incredible to me (I say this mainly as I see con-Bamber posters using the height issue as a reason why Sheila could not have overpowered Nevill. I find it incredible that on one hand people believe there is no way a woman of Sheila's stature could overpower Nevil, the same people don't bat an eyelid at the police thinking a large body is that of a woman, not just a body).
As for the "not that story" - I really have no idea what Shona is refering to specifically, I am just answering what I read.
You also seem to be missing the point about the photo in the link. The body has moved. The body does not have to be moved to establish life or death when face up and accessible.
I am also aware of the conditions of the forum, no need to tell me that you accept both sides of the divide, just because I don't believe everthing the prosecution claims doesn't make me pro-defence, I am purely pro-fair trial for all suspects.
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
Actually, if you look at that first shot, it doesn't work. If Sheila intended that shot to be effective, she wouldn't have done it to the side of her neck. She would have put the gun under her chin, or in her mouth. Why shoot herself to the side of her throat?
That is a really good point Shona,
I never considered that. Why would someone, if they were going to kill themselves, shoot themselves in a place that misses all their vital organs??? The question is rhetorical and we know why, dont we Shona 8((()*/
Fantastic point Shona 8@??)(
If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the boys, she wouldn't have risked it at WHF. She'd have done it in the flat. She knew Ralph would have tried to stop her. Who wanted the family dead....Sheila who loved those boys, or JB, who thought those boys were a liability?
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
Actually, if you look at that first shot, it doesn't work. If Sheila intended that shot to be effective, she wouldn't have done it to the side of her neck. She would have put the gun under her chin, or in her mouth. Why shoot herself to the side of her throat?
Shona - aren't you countering your own argument here? You suggested earlier that the Bamber supporters believe Sheila could shoot herself in the kitchen and then run upstairs and spring into bed, something you seem to find incredible/unbelievable. Here you now seem to be suggesting it is perfectly possible to be ineffective at shooting yourself, thus surely rendering yourself capable of running upstairs and sprining into bed.
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
Actually, if you look at that first shot, it doesn't work. If Sheila intended that shot to be effective, she wouldn't have done it to the side of her neck. She would have put the gun under her chin, or in her mouth. Why shoot herself to the side of her throat?
Shona - aren't you countering your own argument here? You suggested earlier that the Bamber supporters believe Sheila could shoot herself in the kitchen and then run upstairs and spring into bed, something you seem to find incredible/unbelievable. Here you now seem to be suggesting it is perfectly possible to be ineffective at shooting yourself, thus surely rendering yourself capable of running upstairs and sprining into bed.
Not really. The first wound was a massive insult, if you like. It didn't kill Sheila, but it did massive damage. She never moved after that. But she was still alive (just).
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ok, i am new here and no idea what the blue forum is or who Mile is. As for biological impossibilities, it is possible to be shot in the throat (either by yourself or another person) and survive...whether one would be up for running and jumping I cannot say, but many people have survived gunshot wounds to their throats. The internet is full of such stories.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/unarmed-man-is-shot-in-throat-as-police-swoop-on-raid-gang-6546850.html
http://www.macon.com/2010/06/27/1177063/teen-girl-shot-in-throat-in-south.html
and on and on and on
Not this story barry. She was shot in the side of the neck. The bullet shattered the fourth vertebrae in her spinal column close to her neck and took out part of her carotid artery. You dont get up from a shot like that no matter what.
Actually, if you look at that first shot, it doesn't work. If Sheila intended that shot to be effective, she wouldn't have done it to the side of her neck. She would have put the gun under her chin, or in her mouth. Why shoot herself to the side of her throat?
Shona - aren't you countering your own argument here? You suggested earlier that the Bamber supporters believe Sheila could shoot herself in the kitchen and then run upstairs and spring into bed, something you seem to find incredible/unbelievable. Here you now seem to be suggesting it is perfectly possible to be ineffective at shooting yourself, thus surely rendering yourself capable of running upstairs and sprining into bed.
Not really. The first wound was a massive insult, if you like. It didn't kill Sheila, but it did massive damage. She never moved after that. But she was still alive (just).
Let's be real. You're saying that Sheila had a shot to the throat, but she didn't bleed out, or choke, or expirate any blood. Not possible. Just not possible.
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
That is wrong on so many counts Barry and just goes to show how disinformation abounds in the Bamber case.
The first bullet partially shattered and this could only happen if it came into contact with bone structure. This bullet ended up by the 4th vertebra shattering adjacent structure. The second bullet entered her cranial cavity which caused instant death.
As far as the two photos are concerned it is quite obvious that Sheila was moved slightly longitudinally. The blood spatter on the right photo is just out of shot in the left photo.
It was one police officer who misidentified Nevill when he glanced through the kitchen window.
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
Could it be guilt or even remorse has set in in his old age? >@@(*&)
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
Could it be guilt or even remorse has set in in his old age? >@@(*&)
No I really dont think Bamber is capable of remorse John and certainly not guilt. If he is doing this it is for effect. His duplicity knows no bounds.
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It's the age thingy when psychopaths start to lose some of their traits or it could be the fact that he's realised he ain't going nowhere.
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
Could it be guilt or even remorse has set in in his old age? >@@(*&)
No I really dont think Bamber is capable of remorse John and certainly not guilt. If he is doing this it is for effect. His duplicity knows no bounds.
Good morning peeps >
I don't think Jeremy is capable of remorse or any other form of reparation for what he did. All that I ever read authored by him is about himself basically .... ME ME ME Has he ever written about his father or mother or murdered nephews with any sentiment or does his work only relate to writing propaganda for his official website???
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Let's be real. You're saying that Sheila had a shot to the throat, but she didn't bleed out, or choke, or expirate any blood. Not possible. Just not possible.
Lets be clear - I never introduced the moving around the house, not bleeding, not choking scenario, that was yourself that introduced that to this thread.
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John I could have said I might have been going to a friends villa this summer but I have never committed myself because as you know I have to deal with other matters.
As for my cage being rattled it would be nice if you are honest when you send me a message by pm
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
Could it be guilt or even remorse has set in in his old age? >@@(*&)
No I really dont think Bamber is capable of remorse John and certainly not guilt. If he is doing this it is for effect. His duplicity knows no bounds.
Good morning peeps >
I don't think Jeremy is capable of remorse or any other form of reparation for what he did. All that I ever read authored by him is about himself basically .... ME ME ME Has he ever written about his father or mother or murdered nephews with any sentiment or does his work only relate to writing propaganda for his official website???
An excellent point mark,
Bamber has never, not once, ever written about his family or expressed any sentiments about them at all that I have read. His sentiments are always soley focused on one person and one person olny - himself.
He is almost certainly completely unable to empathise with another human being, show any remorse or guilt for what he has done. However, this is totally true-to-form.
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Let's be real. You're saying that Sheila had a shot to the throat, but she didn't bleed out, or choke, or expirate any blood. Not possible. Just not possible.
Lets be clear - I never introduced the moving around the house, not bleeding, not choking scenario, that was yourself that introduced that to this thread.
Sorry, Barry. Welcome to the forum!!
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
That is wrong on so many counts Barry and just goes to show how disinformation abounds in the Bamber case.
The first bullet partially shattered and this could only happen if it came into contact with bone structure. This bullet ended up by the 4th vertebra shattering adjacent structure. The second bullet entered her cranial cavity which caused instant death.
As far as the two photos are concerned it is quite obvious that Sheila was moved slightly longitudinally. The blood spatter on the right photo is just out of shot in the left photo.
It was one police officer who misidentified Nevill when he glanced through the kitchen window.
Not wrong on that many counts then.
1. The first bullet. I had read it lodged in tissue, while I read elsewhere that it fractured, not shattered. So on this count I will concede the bullet was not lodged in tissue. However, fractures of vertebrae and surronding structure do not necessarily paralyse or kill. The severity of the fracture is not discussed in the pathology report of 30/9/85.
2. The moved body. Nothing wrong with my assertion that the body was moved then.
3. Mistaking Nevill for a female. It happened, it isn't wrong on any count. My defintion of "incredible" in the context of this case was asked for, I gave my opinion/examples - that cannot be wrong.
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John I could have said I might have been going to a friends villa this summer but I have never committed myself because as you know I have to deal with other matters.
As for my cage being rattled it would be nice if you are honest when you send me a message by pm
A message about what Jackie? I really don't know what you are going on about.
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
Could it be guilt or even remorse has set in in his old age? >@@(*&)
No I really dont think Bamber is capable of remorse John and certainly not guilt. If he is doing this it is for effect. His duplicity knows no bounds.
Good morning peeps >
I don't think Jeremy is capable of remorse or any other form of reparation for what he did. All that I ever read authored by him is about himself basically .... ME ME ME Has he ever written about his father or mother or murdered nephews with any sentiment or does his work only relate to writing propaganda for his official website???
An excellent point mark,
Bamber has never, not once, ever written about his family or expressed any sentiments about them at all that I have read. His sentiments are always soley focused on one person and one person olny - himself.
He is almost certainly completely unable to empathise with another human being, show any remorse or guilt for what he has done. However, this is totally true-to-form.
And I will bet he blames his murdered kin for his own demise. Assuming of course that he has any feelings at all.
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
That is wrong on so many counts Barry and just goes to show how disinformation abounds in the Bamber case.
The first bullet partially shattered and this could only happen if it came into contact with bone structure. This bullet ended up by the 4th vertebra shattering adjacent structure. The second bullet entered her cranial cavity which caused instant death.
As far as the two photos are concerned it is quite obvious that Sheila was moved slightly longitudinally. The blood spatter on the right photo is just out of shot in the left photo.
It was one police officer who misidentified Nevill when he glanced through the kitchen window.
Not wrong on that many counts then.
1. The first bullet. I had read it lodged in tissue, while I read elsewhere that it fractured, not shattered. So on this count I will concede the bullet was not lodged in tissue. However, fractures of vertebrae and surronding structure do not necessarily paralyse or kill. The severity of the fracture is not discussed in the pathology report of 30/9/85.
2. The moved body. Nothing wrong with my assertion that the body was moved then.
3. Mistaking Nevill for a female. It happened, it isn't wrong on any count. My defintion of "incredible" in the context of this case was asked for, I gave my opinion/examples - that cannot be wrong.
If you have read the pathologists report you would have seen the comment that the shots were made in quick succession rendering any wandering about the house a non starter.
It would seem that you have mixed up the sequence of the bullets in your original comment when you stated that a bullet wound into solely flesh would not necessarily result in death. What you failed to understand was that the second bullet did in fact enter flesh but did result in instant death as it impacted on her brain.
I hope this clarifies matters.
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hello Shona ... is that what happened? I have seen the photos that show blood in Sheila's mouth and blood on the right shoulder of her nightdress, but I dont know that she moved between rooms with a shattered throat. I have read that one bullet only entered tissue therefore it would still be possible to live, but moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work, do tell me more.
If you have read the pathologists report you would have seen the comment that the shots were made in quick succession rendering any wandering about the house a non starter.
It would seem that you have mixed up the sequence of the bullets in your original comment when you stated that a bullet wound into solely flesh would not necessarily result in death. What you failed to understand was that the second bullet did in fact enter flesh but did result in instant death as it impacted on her brain.
I hope this clarifies matters.
I am not mixing anything up, Shona posed a scenario asking if I found Sheila running around with a bullet in her throat "incredible" - If you read my post you will see I asked "is that what happened?" -I made no claim that she moved, I merely said what the pathologist said - the first bullet would not be instantly fatal. As for failing to understand the second bullet, sorry, I made no comment about the 2nd bullet so what is it I failed to understand? No need to answer that, I know the answer.
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You have to appreciate Barry that there is a wealth of evidence which supports the fact that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on Nevill, was not seen in the kitchen by a police officer and never moved after the first shot. This evidence is well sourced and has been debated over many years.
Can I ask you a question Barry. If someone shot you in the neck with a .22 rifle at point blank range what is the first thing you do with your fingers...assuming of course that you ever regained consciousness?
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Apparently, JB walks and talks with his "dad" every day. After 27 years. The "dad" that he stole from. The dad that he hated. "I f..king hate my parents."
It's not looking very good, is it?
Could it be guilt or even remorse has set in in his old age? >@@(*&)
No I really dont think Bamber is capable of remorse John and certainly not guilt. If he is doing this it is for effect. His duplicity knows no bounds.
Good morning peeps >
I don't think Jeremy is capable of remorse or any other form of reparation for what he did. All that I ever read authored by him is about himself basically .... ME ME ME Has he ever written about his father or mother or murdered nephews with any sentiment or does his work only relate to writing propaganda for his official website???
An excellent point mark,
Bamber has never, not once, ever written about his family or expressed any sentiments about them at all that I have read. His sentiments are always soley focused on one person and one person olny - himself.
He is almost certainly completely unable to empathise with another human being, show any remorse or guilt for what he has done. However, this is totally true-to-form.
And I will bet he blames his murdered kin for his own demise. Assuming of course that he has any feelings at all.
Absolutely right John, he always blames the relatives of family at length and copiously.
To this day he never loses an opportunity to slip in a sentence that points the finger squarely at Sheila.
The man is mentally unbalanced and in my opinion (for all that's worth) he is a classic example of a psychopath. He will never accept responsibility for his own actions. An absolutely worthless, lying, murderous, self-centred manipulative oxygen thief.
At least they cant accuse me of sugar-coating anything :-)
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Does anyone think Bamber will ever see the light of day again even when he is an old old man? 8-)(--)
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Neil Grahame Bellis and Noddy Grahame Belton have a sort of ring to them. 8**8:/:
Ding dong @)(++(*
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You have to appreciate Barry that there is a wealth of evidence which supports the fact that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on Nevill, was not seen in the kitchen by a police officer and never moved after the first shot. This evidence is well sourced and has been debated over many years.
Can I ask you a question Barry. If someone shot you in the neck with a .22 rifle at point blank range what is the first thing you do with your fingers...assuming of course that you ever regained consciousness?
John - I wrote "I don't know that (Sheila) moved between rooms with a shattered throat" & "moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work" - so please tell me why I have to appreciate there is a wealth of evidence supporting the theory that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on her father - what is it that I have introduced to the debate that makes you think I don't already appreciate this?
You can of course ask me what the first thing I would do with my fingers if shot by with a .22 rifle, however the question and answer are totally irrelevant to the thread and it is clear that conjecture is not understood by some readers so I don' think it would be at all helpful to add more.
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You have to appreciate Barry that there is a wealth of evidence which supports the fact that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on Nevill, was not seen in the kitchen by a police officer and never moved after the first shot. This evidence is well sourced and has been debated over many years.
Can I ask you a question Barry. If someone shot you in the neck with a .22 rifle at point blank range what is the first thing you do with your fingers...assuming of course that you ever regained consciousness?
John - I wrote "I don't know that (Sheila) moved between rooms with a shattered throat" & "moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work" - so please tell me why I have to appreciate there is a wealth of evidence supporting the theory that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on her father - what is it that I have introduced to the debate that makes you think I don't already appreciate this?
You can of course ask me what the first thing I would do with my fingers if shot by with a .22 rifle, however the question and answer are totally irrelevant to the thread and it is clear that conjecture is not understood by some readers so I don' think it would be at all helpful to add more.
Are you being purposely obtuse Barry?
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No James, not purposely. Perhaps you can help me get to the point, what is it I am supposed to say?
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Does anyone think Bamber will ever see the light of day again even when he is an old old man? 8-)(--)
Not a chance. He will never leave prison. The seriousness of his crimes is so appalling that they will never even consider him for parole - no matter what age he is.
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You have to appreciate Barry that there is a wealth of evidence which supports the fact that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on Nevill, was not seen in the kitchen by a police officer and never moved after the first shot. This evidence is well sourced and has been debated over many years.
Can I ask you a question Barry. If someone shot you in the neck with a .22 rifle at point blank range what is the first thing you do with your fingers...assuming of course that you ever regained consciousness?
John - I wrote "I don't know that (Sheila) moved between rooms with a shattered throat" & "moving between rooms, that sounds like guess work" - so please tell me why I have to appreciate there is a wealth of evidence supporting the theory that Sheila was not downstairs after the attack on her father - what is it that I have introduced to the debate that makes you think I don't already appreciate this?
You can of course ask me what the first thing I would do with my fingers if shot by with a .22 rifle, however the question and answer are totally irrelevant to the thread and it is clear that conjecture is not understood by some readers so I don' think it would be at all helpful to add more.
It's just a simple question Barry so humour me.
If someone shot you in the neck with a .22 rifle at point blank range what is the first thing you would do...assuming of course that you ever regained consciousness?
Its isn't a trick question, rather a serious one.
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The serious answer is I don't know what I would do if shot in the neck by any calibre weapon, I can only imagine my reaction would depend on a combination of the pain experienced and the circumstances of the event. Would it help if I said I would touch my wound?
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That is probably what i would do! Put my hand up to the wound, dont most of us do that when we are injured or in pain?
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The serious answer is I don't know what I would do if shot in the neck by any calibre weapon, I can only imagine my reaction would depend on a combination of the pain experienced and the circumstances of the event. Would it help if I said I would touch my wound?
There you go...that wasn't hard was it?
Now seriously that is exactly what you would do, touch the wound as it would be stinging like hell!
In Sheila's case there was no sign that she had touched her neck, not a single smudge of blood on her neck or any on her fingers tips.
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That is probably what i would do! Put my hand up to the wound, dont most of us do that when we are injured or in pain?
People don't realise that a bullet is extremely hot and will create a searing pain wherever it ends up.
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The serious answer is I don't know what I would do if shot in the neck by any calibre weapon, I can only imagine my reaction would depend on a combination of the pain experienced and the circumstances of the event. Would it help if I said I would touch my wound?
There you go...that wasn't hard was it?
Now seriously that is exactly what you would do, touch the wound as it would be stinging like hell!
In Sheila's case there was no sign that she had touched her neck, not a single smudge of blood on her neck or any on her fingers tips.
John,
Grahame has categorically denied he has ever visited this forum. Some poster on the other forum has called him out on that. have you any proof that he has been on here? I want to show him for the liar that he is.
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Tim
Is that what I am Tim tolerated???
I thought John welcomed me with open arms???
You're a mod aren't you why don't you just ban me??
You don't know anything about me so stop going on about villas and families and I won't talk about your personal details
Try not to be so Mr Angry all the time Patti was being nice to you
As far as I know, anything Grahame knows about regarding this forum is what everyone tells him. I have told him loads what has been written on here about him and he didn't know
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When are you allowed back on the blue forum jackie?
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Was your ban for life, Jack?
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As I said, it would depend on the circumstances, answering the question as it stands does not mean that is exactly what anyone would do in the actual event particularly if we lost consciousness at the time of the shooting. Neither you nor I know what our true immediate reactions would be because we don't know the circumstances of us regaining consciousness.
I suspect you are trying to tell me that Sheila was not conscious after the first shot, not something I have disputed. I will however say the q&a session can also be interpreted that those who dont touch their wounds have no regard for their own life, the stinging pain being a means towards an end.
Still I am glad you brought up the heat of the bullet, the heat vaporising the fingerprints explaining why it's so difficult for forensics to get prints from spent bullets.
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Yes Andrea mine is a life time ban
The cause was my meltdown because Keira banned me for nothing !!!!!
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When are you allowed back on the blue forum jackie?
Andrea I don't think I will ever be allowed back
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Andy I think I am classed as a Cat A forum/mod offender and I think even John is only a Cat B, I reckon you were only a D cat
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The serious answer is I don't know what I would do if shot in the neck by any calibre weapon, I can only imagine my reaction would depend on a combination of the pain experienced and the circumstances of the event. Would it help if I said I would touch my wound?
There you go...that wasn't hard was it?
Now seriously that is exactly what you would do, touch the wound as it would be stinging like hell!
In Sheila's case there was no sign that she had touched her neck, not a single smudge of blood on her neck or any on her fingers tips.
John,
Grahame has categorically denied he has ever visited this forum. Some poster on the other forum has called him out on that. have you any proof that he has been on here? I want to show him for the liar that he is.
He posted on the old ProBoards forum before Jackie went to town on it as I used to cross post with him. I don't recall him actually being on this forum though.
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Tim
Is that what I am Tim tolerated???
I thought John welcomed me with open arms???
You're a mod aren't you why don't you just ban me??
You don't know anything about me so stop going on about villas and families and I won't talk about your personal details
Try not to be so Mr Angry all the time Patti was being nice to you
As far as I know, anything Grahame knows about regarding this forum is what everyone tells him. I have told him loads what has been written on here about him and he didn't know
I think that some people were looking forward to you spilling some beans on here, posting personal messages etc.
Perhaps that is why you have been tolerated. For the record, I don't include myself amongst those people.
On a different note, are you currently involved in any campaigning for Bamber or any other MoJ?
Have you resolved the issues regarding your apartment management?