Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: VIXTE on March 20, 2014, 01:00:54 AM
Title: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: VIXTE on March 20, 2014, 01:00:54 AM
"There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive. What is important for us to do is consider all the options," he said.
This is what Redwood said.. Not that SHE IS DEAD but that there is always a potential she might have died in the apartment..
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 20, 2014, 02:45:18 AM
Andy has an unusual style.
First of all he appears on telly burbling some inanities, in this case the smelly intruder, then just like a magician, he whips a dove out of nowhere to flutter about wildly.
The dove in this case being "she may have died in 5a that night".
Which pretty much rules out "abduction" doesn't it? Unless Gerry was weeing in the toilet whilst Madeleine was being murdered?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 03:30:10 AM
Andy Redwood ... speaking for Scotland Yard, said ( for the first time ) that Madeleine may not have left apartment 5A alive
That IS what he said
Yup.
Add in BHH's "murder" and what have you got?
Something very nasty indeed.
Remember, the time frame of "abducting"/murdering Madeleine was very, very slim. Gerry was standing in the street below talking to Jez and Tanner was also wafting about.
How did he get past them all, murder Madeleine, or take her, all while under the very eyes of her doting daddy?
Was he a shape shifter?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 20, 2014, 04:45:23 AM
Perhaps we should take gerry's advice and ask the dogs. 8)-)))
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2014, 08:00:04 AM
Remember, the time frame of "abducting"/murdering Madeleine was very, very slim. Gerry was standing in the street below talking to Jez and Tanner was also wafting about.
How did he get past them all, murder Madeleine, or take her, all while under the very eyes of her doting daddy?
Was he a shape shifter?
What you have got is SY carrying out a proper investigation having cleared the parents...and posters on here grasping at straws to try and convince themselves that the McCanns are still in the frame
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 20, 2014, 08:14:25 AM
What you have got is SY carrying out a proper investigation having cleared the parents...and posters on here grasping at straws to try and convince themselves that the McCanns are still in the frame
You have to admit that they are quite good at it. Convincing themselves, that is. But supposing Amaral was right, this doesn't allow any time for any of the now famous Death Scent. Although as far as I know this paedophile hasn't actually killed any other child.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 20, 2014, 08:26:51 AM
SY have been quite clear, they believe Madeleine may be alive.
Now see if you can spot a single age progressed picture of her on Crimewatch.
What you have got is SY carrying out a proper investigation having cleared the parents...and posters on here grasping at straws to try and convince themselves that the McCanns are still in the frame
Yes apparently there is a mega covert conspiracy going on between SY and the PJ to lull the McCanns into a false sense of security - and then they are going to suddenly pounce on them and arrest them. The Crimewatch appeal was merely part of this cunning plan.
The mention of the word 'murder' and now Andy Redwood saying that Madeleine may have died in the apartment - are coded messages to the sceptics to let them know that actually SY believe the same as they do.
The ability of some people to convince themselves that black is actually white - never ceases to amaze me.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 20, 2014, 08:37:31 AM
Yes apparently there is a mega covert conspiracy going on between SY and the PJ to lull the McCanns into a false sense of security - and then they are going to suddenly pounce on them and arrest them. The Crimewatch appeal was merely part of this cunning plan.
The mention of the word 'murder' and now Andy Redwood saying that Madeleine may have died in the apartment - are coded messages to the sceptics to let them know that actually SY believe the same as they do.
The ability of some people to convince themselves that black is actually white - never ceases to amaze me.
Tractorman being Smithman springs to mind.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 20, 2014, 08:47:51 AM
Well spotted WS. By the looks of it they aren't looking for a live Madeleine any more and are more interested in a collar.
It is not very likely that they will find Madeleine until they catch the person who abducted her, who might or might not have killed her. But while there is no body then they are right in assuming that Madeleine could still be alive.
Sadly, The PJ still don't seem to be helping very much.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 20, 2014, 09:13:23 AM
It is not very likely that they will find Madeleine until they catch the person who abducted her, who might or might not have killed her. But while there is no body then they are right in assuming that Madeleine could still be alive.
Sadly, The PJ still don't seem to be helping very much.
I think the PJ will be working hard, I doubt that it's their fault that the JIT idea doesn't seem to have worked out.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 06:38:19 PM
It is not very likely that they will find Madeleine until they catch the person who abducted her, who might or might not have killed her. But while there is no body then they are right in assuming that Madeleine could still be alive.
Sadly, The PJ still don't seem to be helping very much.
But isn't this the first time Scotland Yard have voiced the opinion that Madeleine may have died in the apartment ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 20, 2014, 06:40:41 PM
So for the sake of argument, let's pretend that Burglarman dunnit.
Why, after leaving several children alive to identify him, would he murder Madeleine and remove her corpse, then return to his previous MO of sitting on kid's beds?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2014, 06:55:06 PM
So for the sake of argument, let's pretend that Burglarman dunnit.
Why, after leaving several children alive to identify him, would he murder Madeleine and remove her corpse, then return to his previous MO of sitting on kid's beds?
firstly..the twins didnt wake
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 20, 2014, 06:56:26 PM
So for the sake of argument, let's pretend that Burglarman dunnit.
Why, after leaving several children alive to identify him, would he murder Madeleine and remove her corpse, then return to his previous MO of sitting on kid's beds?
I wait with bated breath for all the innocent explanations. I am still waiting for links to all these attacks. Ah well! when Nelson gets his eye back I expect.
How about how we are so ignorant we did not understand that Redwood didn't really say that or have it quoted in at least two news papers? But nary a citation in sight.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2014, 07:14:06 PM
I wait with bated breath for all the innocent explanations. I am still waiting for links to all these attacks. Ah well! when Nelson gets his eye back I expect.
How about how we are so ignorant we did not understand that Redwood didn't really say that or have it quoted in at least two news papers? But nary a citation in sight.
I don't see why you are getting so excited about what Redwood said...grasping at the few remaining straws it appears....it has always been a possibility that Maddie died in the apartment...strangely you hang on every word that he says that you can twist to your own agenda...remember he said the parents are not suspects...how disappointing that must be for you
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 20, 2014, 07:25:52 PM
As has been made clear today, Redwood is barking up the wrong tree, as the latest 'suspect' is dead.
He is finding it very difficult to justify the amount of tax payers money being spent, which has achieved precisely ZIP.
I wonder how many more free holiday trips there will be to Portugal on the tax payers expense ?
Perhaps he should visit the pope to get his blessing.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2014, 07:29:44 PM
Yes, true...but who knows if she's alive or dead as the latest "suspect" is no longer alive. so who is to be the next suspect and will Redwood be able to confront the next suspect or will something happen yet again..!?
None of these people are suspects, merely people of interest. Apparently Redwood has a list of some 500 known paedophiles to work through, so he'll probably be at it until he draws his pension.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Estuarine on March 20, 2014, 07:59:45 PM
I don't see why you are getting so excited about what Redwood said...grasping at the few remaining straws it appears....it has always been a possibility that Maddie died in the apartment...strangely you hang on every word that he says that you can twist to your own agenda...remember he said the parents are not suspects...how disappointing that must be for you
If you read my post carefully you will see that I am taking the p**s.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: sadie on March 20, 2014, 08:33:19 PM
None of these people are suspects, merely people of interest. Apparently Redwood has a list of some 500 known paedophiles to work through, so he'll probably be at it until he draws his pension.
500 paedos to go thru ?
Where do you get that info from jassi ?
Cite please
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 20, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
Are you saying something for the sake of saying it, do you think?
Was DC Redwood?
He's the one who said "she may not have been alive when she left the apartment". Do you think he said it just for the sake of it? Just to, you know, throw it out there and see what happens?
Talking of Andy saying things 'just for the sake of them', it wasn't terribly helpful of him to supply the age range of the other children was it? 7-10. Not toddlers.
I wonder why he added that detail?
Probably just saying stuff for the sake of it.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 10:04:48 PM
Andy Redwood said the McCanns are not suspect
So why is he considering the possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment ?
I mean, if 'abduction' is the theory Scotland Yard have accepted, why the need to introduce a 'Madeleine died in the apartment' scenario at all ?
Unless, of course, that rather splendid cadaver dog's alerts have not been dismissed by the Yard
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 20, 2014, 11:18:49 PM
Andy Redwood is being very clever in my opinion. The crux of Redwoods appeal yesterday is in his wording. As has been pointed out by a few people already, he did not say that possibly Madeleine may no longer be alive, he made the point of saying that she possibly may not have been alive BEFORE she left the apartment
He will know that it takes a minimum of 1.5 hours before cadaver scent develops on a body. Assuming for a moment that Eddie alerted correctly to a cadaver and again assuming that that cadaver was Madeleine, that would totally throw Gerry's check at 9.10pm out of the window as was pointed out yesterday by others, there just ISN'T enough time between 9.10pm and the 10pm alert by Kate for a body to be detectable by a cadaver dog scent wise!
The purpose of the appeal for Binman/Tractorman is purely to eliminate him from their enquiries. Mr Redwood knows how highly unlikely it is that Binman/tractorman entered the apartment, sat on Madeleine's bed, killed her and then waited around for an hour and a half for cadaver odour to develop before making his escape with her body!
He also knows that Binman/Tractorman died in 2009. http://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto
This post has been edited by Senior Editor so as to comply with forum rules.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 11:21:48 PM
A dog who barks when he finds the scent of death, barked in the apartment where a missing child was last seen
It appears Scotland Yard feel the need to find an explanation for that
Why else would they be saying that Madeleine might have died in apartment 5A ?
What, apart from the cadaver dog's alert, would lead them to consider that possibility at all ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 20, 2014, 11:23:27 PM
Andy Redwood is being very clever in my opinion. The crux of Redwoods appeal yesterday is in his wording. As has been pointed out by a few people already, he did not say that possibly Madeleine may no longer be alive, he made the point of saying that she possibly may not have been alive BEFORE she left the apartment
He will know that it takes a minimum of 1.5 hours before cadaver scent develops on a body. Assuming for a moment that Eddie alerted correctly to a cadaver and again assuming that that cadaver was Madeleine, that would totally throw Gerry's check at 9.10pm out of the window as was pointed out yesterday by others, there just ISN'T enough time between 9.10pm and the 10pm alert by Kate for a body to be detectable by a cadaver dog scent wise!
The purpose of the appeal for Binman/Tractorman is purely to eliminate him from their enquiries. Mr Redwood knows how highly unlikely it is that Binman/tractorman entered the apartment, sat on Madeleine's bed, killed her and then waited around for an hour and a half for cadaver odour to develop before making his escape with her body!
He also knows that Binman/Tractorman died in 2009. http://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto
This post has been edited by Senior Editor so as to comply with forum rules.
I didn't realise that it took some time before cadaver odour was detectable
Your post is very sensible
I have been struck by the fact that both Crimewatch programmes have released two, previously unknown facts ... that Scotland Yard do not believe Jane Tanner saw Madeleine being abducted ... and that Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: a.baker on March 21, 2014, 01:46:05 AM
And not forgetting that they want to identify Smithman. They obviously feel he is crucial to the investigation. The child Smithman was seen carrying appeared not to have been alive. Maybe this is the reason Redwood has admitted that Madeleine may not have left 5a alive. Is it possible that he is FINALLY beginning to join all the dots?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 01:54:08 AM
And not forgetting that they want to identify Smithman. They obviously feel he is crucial to the investigation. The child Smithman was seen carrying appeared not to have been alive. Maybe this is the reason Redwood has admitted that Madeleine may not have left 5a alive. Is it possible that he is FINALLY beginning to join all the dots?
What are you talking about !
Who said that the child the Smith family saw 'appeared not to have been alive' ?
Certainly not the Smiths
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 21, 2014, 02:01:05 AM
Didn't one of the group state that the eyes were closed?
What ?
... are you serious ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: a.baker on March 21, 2014, 02:24:32 AM
No I know the Smiths didn't say so. Am going on assumption that an awake child would have had their arms around the adults neck or shoulders? The childs arms were down by her sides. Likely asleep,drugged or dead. The weather was said to be chilly and windy at 10pm. How likely is it that a child in pj's,no coat or blanket would have stayed asleep in those conditions? Not impossible but not likely either imo.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 21, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Quote
"her eyelids were closed"
Source: Statement by PS 26 May 2007
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 02:48:32 AM
I didn't realise that it took some time before cadaver odour was detectable
Your post is very sensible
I have been struck by the fact that both Crimewatch programmes have released two, previously unknown facts ... that Scotland Yard do not believe Jane Tanner saw Madeleine being abducted ... and that Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A
I tend to agree Icabodcrane, it's as if he is drip feeding the information into the public domain.
At it stands, Redwood and Scotland Yard...
* Believe the 'abduction' occurred much closer to 10.00pm.
* Believe Jane Tanner's sighting was of an innocent tourist.
* Believe it possible that Madeleine died in the apartment.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 02:52:09 AM
No I know the Smiths didn't say so. Am going on assumption that an awake child would have had their arms around the adults neck or shoulders? The childs arms were down by her sides. Likely asleep,drugged or dead. The weather was said to be chilly and windy at 10pm. How likely is it that a child in pj's,no coat or blanket would have stayed asleep in those conditions? Not impossible but not likely either imo.
Blimey ... Andy Redwood opened a can of worms didn't he ?
Here we are, discussing how a dead child could be carried through the streets of PDL !
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 21, 2014, 03:03:53 AM
Blimey ... Andy Redwood opened a can of worms didn't he ?
Here we are, discussing how a dead child could be carried through the streets of PDL !
Is that such a new concept? I am sure I have read the suggestion once or twice on this forum.
Even mentioned the possibility myself a few months ago...
If none of the Smith family had any real interaction with Smithman, as we know they didn't, and the child was still and looked as though she was asleep, who's to say whether she was alive or dead?
I always thought it would be a greater risk to carry a living child through the streets, because there would be a risk the child would wake up, make a noise and draw attention to herself.
If a child being carried around were dead, no-one would have any reason to suspect the fact. They would assume she was asleep.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 03:14:25 AM
Is that such a new concept? I am sure I have read the suggestion once or twice on this forum.
Well you might have seen it raised by members on the forum before ... but you never heard the possibilty proposed by Scotland Yard until now .... did you ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 03:32:55 AM
Well you might have seen it raised by members on the forum before ... but you never heard the possibilty proposed by Scotland Yard until now .... did you ?
Another Redwood eureka moment? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 07:42:49 AM
While you cling to every word that Redwood says if you can use it to support your viewpoint remember that Redwood has said the McCanns are not suspects. From the beginning Redwood has said that Maddie may be dead...nothing has changed as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 07:44:55 AM
While you cling to every word that Redwood says if you can use it to support your viewpoint remember that Redwood has said the McCanns are not suspects. From the beginning Redwood has said that Maddie may be dead...nothing has changed as far as I am concerned.
Apparently the GBP are surreptiously being drip fed certain info by SY via progs like Crimewatch - to let us know that they are on the trail of the McCanns.
A severe case of 'wishful thinking' imo.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 08:07:35 AM
Sorry to bring the dogs back into it but.....for the serial offender scenario to work then 100% of the dog alerts where no blood was found would therefore need to be false. This is due to the timescales involved with cadaver scent. What are the chances that every alert was 100% false?
Also, as I asked in an earlier post that has been removed, if SY are looking for this serial offender then where is the list of dates and locations of each incident? Surely this should be standard practice when an appeal for witnesses is made? I have so far seen nothing of the sort which IMO makes the appeal half hearted. Why would SY make a half hearted appeal when a properly conducted one could solve the case? Or is that somehow not their opinion because as far as I recall they have only asked for NEW incidents to be reported?
A blood dog would probably find innocent blood in many places...Grime does not confirm that any of the cadaver alerts indicate cadaver scent
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2014, 08:29:14 AM
Sorry to bring the dogs back into it but.....for the serial offender scenario to work then 100% of the dog alerts where no blood was found would therefore need to be false. This is due to the timescales involved with cadaver scent. What are the chances that every alert was 100% false?
Also, as I asked in an earlier post that has been removed, if SY are looking for this serial offender then where is the list of dates and locations of each incident? Surely this should be standard practice when an appeal for witnesses is made? I have so far seen nothing of the sort which IMO makes the appeal half hearted. Why would SY make a half hearted appeal when a properly conducted one could solve the case? Or is that somehow not their opinion because as far as I recall they have only asked for NEW incidents to be reported?
We've been given locations - including Praia de Luz (2 reports). I don't see why dates would be important - as SY just want to hear from anyone who may have been a victim of this criminal during the last several years - both before and after Madeleine's disappearance.
The last Crimewatch programme resulted in more families coming forward (4?) - and I presume they are hoping that anyone else who may have information will also come forward after this latest appeal.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 08:41:09 AM
As usual it is all quite obvious to me. Scotland Yard discarded the death scent long ago for various sensible reasons, and decided that The McCanns are innocent. So what he is saying now is that it is a possibility that Madeleine was killed in the appartment by an intruder bent on sexual abuse, and then removed by him, possibly for reasons of DNA.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 08:46:52 AM
We've been given locations - including Praia de Luz (2 reports). I don't see why dates would be important - as SY just want to hear from anyone who may have been a victim of this criminal during the last several years - both before and after Madeleine's disappearance.
The last Crimewatch programme resulted in more families coming forward (4?) - and I presume they are hoping that anyone else who may have information will also come forward after this latest appeal.
Scotland Yard are certainly not going to give out information that might identify the victims or their parents. This isn't targeted at the likes of ordinary people to go poking their noses in. It's targeted at people who already know something or might have had the same thing happen
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2014, 08:51:23 AM
As usual it is all quite obvious to me. Scotland Yard discarded the death scent long ago for various sensible reasons, and decided that The McCanns are innocent. So what he is saying now is that it is a possibility that Madeleine was killed in the appartment by an intruder bent on sexual abuse, and then removed by him, possibly for reasons of DNA.
I agree. And having made it crystal clear that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or even persons of interest I presume he didn't think it was necessary to point out that if Madeleine did not leave the apartment alive - then it wasn't at the hands of the McCanns.
However, - even if he had said that - then I'm sure that would be interpreted as SY 'lulling the McCanns iinto a false sense of security' by some.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't - every step of the way.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2014, 08:52:24 AM
Scotland Yard are certainly not going to give out information that might identify the victims or their parents. This isn't targeted at the likes of ordinary people to go poking their noses in. It's targeted at people who already know something or might have had the same thing happen
Is that a belief as well ?
@)(++(*
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 08:52:48 AM
As usual it is all quite obvious to me. Scotland Yard discarded the death scent long ago for various sensible reasons, and decided that The McCanns are innocent. So what he is saying now is that it is a possibility that Madeleine was killed in the appartment by an intruder bent on sexual abuse, and then removed by him, possibly for reasons of DNA.
He isn't saying that at all - that is merely your interpretation.
He is simply saying that she might have died in the apartment. He is not making any assumption about reason for death.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 09:03:05 AM
As usual it is all quite obvious to me. Scotland Yard discarded the death scent long ago for various sensible reasons, and decided that The McCanns are innocent. So what he is saying now is that it is a possibility that Madeleine was killed in the appartment by an intruder bent on sexual abuse, and then removed by him, possibly for reasons of DNA.
If they've discarded the death scent, why say Madeleine could've died before she left the apartment? I assume they must have a reason for thinking that?
Also, this serial offender left DNA before and also left children alive who could identify him. They've given a good description, why remove a body?
Also, if these crimes then continued, why go back to the previous MO? I've heard of escalation, but not then deceleration.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2014, 09:06:37 AM
If they've discarded the death scent, why say Madeleine could've died before she left the apartment? I assume they must have a reason for thinking that?
Also, this serial offender left DNA before and also left children alive who could identify him. They've given a good description, why remove a body?
Also, if these crimes then continued, why go back to the previous MO? I've heard of escalation, but not then deceleration.
It is possible that Madeleine attempted to kick up a fuss and that the intruder killed her accidentally while trying to keep her quiet. DNA is a difficult one because it can be left without the person being aware, but in attempting to silence a child it would have to be hands on. And he would probably know it.
It is all speculation anyway, but nevertheless a possibility.
The only thing we can be sure of is that Andy Redwood has stated that The McCanns are not Suspects or Persons of Interest.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Estuarine on March 21, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
Has any police force actually said they believe the McCanns to be innocent and used the word innocent? The only thing I recall is DCI Redwood suggesting they weren't suspects in a specific line of inquiry. But that is all so much water under the bridge. Currently he (DCI Redwood)has suggested that it is possible the child died in the apartment. Once that is suggested The Met will start from the beginning of that possibility and investigate from the primary event with no preconceived ideas. It may well turn out the McCanns are innocent but right now it is an unknown in the current turn of events.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: sadie on March 21, 2014, 09:35:35 AM
Has any police force actually said they believe the McCanns to be innocent and used the word innocent? The only thing I recall is DCI Redwood suggesting they weren't suspects in a specific line of inquiry. But that is all so much water under the bridge. Currently he (DCI Redwood)has suggested that it is possible the child died in the apartment. Once that is suggested The Met will start from the beginning of that possibility and investigate from the primary event with no preconceived ideas. It may well turn out the McCanns are innocent but right now it is an unknown in the current turn of events.
After more than two years and all of those trips to Portugal, and the rogatory letters. Scotland Yard aren't doing this for fun and neither are they playing softly, softly. They did the ground work in the beginning.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 09:39:29 AM
After more than two years and all of those trips to Portugal, and the rogatory letters. Scotland Yard aren't doing this for fun and neither are they playing softly, softly. They did the ground work in the beginning.
You mean they excavated the driveway?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 09:41:27 AM
After more than two years and all of those trips to Portugal, and the rogatory letters. Scotland Yard aren't doing this for fun and neither are they playing softly, softly. They did the ground work in the beginning.
More supposition on your part - you simply have no idea of what they are about, any more than the rest of us.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2014, 10:09:54 AM
I think we'll leave your biased, dismissive opinion on the dogs to one side for now otherwise we'll end up too far away from the thread subject. 8(0(*
It's not a case of ordinary people poking their nose in. These incidents happened to holiday makers in holiday resorts therefore it is logical to seek help holiday makers present at the time. If the dates and locations are not released then it is surely because they are not seeking witnesses to any strange happenings regarding those incidents. The question should then be why, if It can help solve the case? Instead they are looking for new cases and hoping to move forward from those new cases.....why? Why only attempt to solve the new cases? Is it because they consider the previous cases solved? This would bring tractorman into the equation....It could also be that because there was no sign of entry in the other circumstances that someone totally unrelated could also have been successful in gaining entry.
My point is, that to follow this line of enquiry is clearly to dismiss the dog alerts and yet there has been no statement to that effect or have I missed something?
I think you are missing the fact that these families have given a description of the perpetrator which bears no resemblance to tractorman who having died in 2009 cannot be the same person who carried out a similar attack in 2010.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carew on March 21, 2014, 10:10:16 AM
It is possible that Madeleine attempted to kick up a fuss and that the intruder killed her accidentally while trying to keep her quiet. DNA is a difficult one because it can be left without the person being aware, but in attempting to silence a child it would have to be hands on. And he would probably know it.
It is all speculation anyway, but nevertheless a possibility.
The only thing we can be sure of is that Andy Redwood has stated that The McCanns are not Suspects or Persons of Interest.
Your points do not explain where the idea that Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment came from and why Andy Redwood introduced it.
What put the idea there?
Something must have triggered the concept for him to introduce it........(dog alerts maybe?)
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 10:14:46 AM
I think you are missing the fact that these families have given a description of the perpetrator which bears no resemblance to tractorman who having died in 2009 cannot be the same person who carried out a similar attack in 2010.
None of them saw his face though eh?
All those witnesses, no efit.
Were all the victims partially sighted aswell as British perhaps.
"He had a very, very unhealthy interest in blind white British girls."
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 10:18:00 AM
Your points do not explain where the idea that Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment came from and why Andy Redwood introduced it. What put the idea there?
Something must have triggered the concept for him to introduce it........(dog alerts maybe?)
Hogan Howe, with his mention of murder, perchance ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 10:21:23 AM
...I asked in an earlier post that has been removed, if SY are looking for this serial offender then where is the list of dates and locations of each incident? Surely this should be standard practice when an appeal for witnesses is made? I have so far seen nothing of the sort which IMO makes the appeal half hearted. Why would SY make a half hearted appeal when a properly conducted one could solve the case? Or is that somehow not their opinion because as far as I recall they have only asked for NEW incidents to be reported?
Spot on Buzz. They don't need to publish the dates cos they know who was responsible for those attacks and have had the info for a while from the PJ http://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto and also it was in Edgars files which were handed over
APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). Sex assault on 10-year-old girl.
JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. Sex assault on nine-year-old girl.
JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. Sex assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.
OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. Sex assault on eight-year-old girl
CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.
MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl's bed.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id239.html
This para stands out for me from today's article in the Grauniad and is what assures me that Redwood is talking about the same guy albeit for some reason he decided to try and be politically correct and describe him as tanned:
'Monteiro lived and often worked near holiday homes where the victims were staying at the time the crimes were perpetrated, he said. The source said the assailant was described by his victims as smelling of tobacco and speaking English but in a foreign accent. Some details are similar to those released by British authorities this week, but the sources said some of the victims described the man as being of African origin. None had discounted the possibility.'
What we have to remember here is that Redwood has a duty to cover all bases, investigate all potential leads in order to be absolutely certain that everything has been looked at so that any convictions he brings are as safe as houses leaving no room for doubt as to who is responsible for Madeleine's disappearance.
He brought the possibility of Madeleine not being alive when she left 5a up for a reason. He could have just said there is a possibility that she is not longer alive but he didn't, he made a point of saying that she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment and that is totally different to what he has said previously. SY have never ever said that they have ruled the dog alerts out and to say what they have said in the last days proves that as there is nothing else other than the dog alerts that would make them even think about suggesting that she was not alive BEFORE she left 5a. Why else would they bring it up? There is no way on this planet that someone entered that apartment, abused and killed Madeleine and then hung around for an hour and a half waiting for cadaver odour to develop. To even suggest what they have done she would have had to have died sometime leading up to 8.30 pm that night. And that throws everything we know about checks etc completely out of the water. There is no other logical explanation for AR saying what he said.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 10:25:27 AM
Your points do not explain where the idea that Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment came from and why Andy Redwood introduced it.
What put the idea there?
Something must have triggered the concept for him to introduce it........(dog alerts maybe?)
It has always been a possibility that Madeleine is dead and possibly killed by an intruder who attempted to shut her up if she woke and was about to start screaming. But most of us prefer to hope that she is still alive, so we tend not to think about it. On the other hand, No McCann Sceptic is ever going to entertain the idea that an intruder could have killed Madeleine because this might exonerate The McCanns.
Now that this possibility has been raised we are attempting to discuss it, hopefully without too much abuse.
So why don't the sceptics come up with reasons for why this unlikely?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 10:35:19 AM
Spot on Buzz. They don't need to publish the dates cos they know who was responsible for those attacks and have had the info for a while from the PJ http://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto and also it was in Edgars files which were handed over
APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). Sex assault on 10-year-old girl.
JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. Sex assault on nine-year-old girl.
JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. Sex assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.
OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. Sex assault on eight-year-old girl
CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.
MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl's bed.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id239.html
This para stands out for me from today's article in the Grauniad and is what assures me that Redwood is talking about the same guy albeit for some reason he decided to try and be politically correct and describe him as tanned:
'Monteiro lived and often worked near holiday homes where the victims were staying at the time the crimes were perpetrated, he said. The source said the assailant was described by his victims as smelling of tobacco and speaking English but in a foreign accent. Some details are similar to those released by British authorities this week, but the sources said some of the victims described the man as being of African origin. None had discounted the possibility.'
What we have to remember here is that Redwood has a duty to cover all bases, investigate all potential leads in order to be absolutely certain that everything has been looked at so that any convictions he brings are as safe as houses leaving no room for doubt as to who is responsible for Madeleine's disappearance.
He brought the possibility of Madeleine not being alive when she left 5a up for a reason. He could have just said there is a possibility that she is not longer alive but he didn't, he made a point of saying that she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment and that is totally different to what he has said previously. SY have never ever said that they have ruled the dog alerts out and to say what they have said in the last days proves that as there is nothing else other than the dog alerts that would make them even think about suggesting that she was not alive BEFORE she left 5a. Why else would they bring it up? There is no way on this planet that someone entered that apartment, abused and killed Madeleine and then hung around for an hour and a half waiting for cadaver odour to develop. To even suggest what they have done she would have had to have died sometime leading up to 8.30 pm that night. And that throws everything we know about checks etc completely out of the water. There is no other logical explanation for AR saying what he said.
There is no way on this planet that someone entered that apartment, abused and killed Madeleine and then hung around for an hour and a half waiting for cadaver odour to develop.
In this event Mr McCanns proud fateher 9pm visit couldn't have happened.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 21, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
It has always been a possibility that Madeleine is dead and possibly killed by an intruder who attempted to shut her up if she woke and was about to start screaming. But most of us prefer to hope that she is still alive, so we tend not to think about it. On the other hand, No McCann Sceptic is ever going to entertain the idea that an intruder could have killed Madeleine because this might exonerate The McCanns.
Now that this possibility has been raised we are attempting to discuss it, hopefully without too much abuse.
So why don't the sceptics come up with reasons for why this unlikely?
Alright, in this particular scenario involving a serial offender, I find it unlikely that he would change his MO so dramatically, that he would leave children able to identify him alive (not the twins, the other victims) yet take a corpse. That he would not leave any sign of being in the apartment, not just no sign of a break in but no hair or fingerprint or DNA sample.
Given the the lack of evidence, he would either have had to have worn gloves/protective clothings, or have taken the time to clean up. If we're taking the checks on the children as fact, there's no time for a clean up operation, if gloves, no need to remove a body.
Plus everything that Serendipity just said.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 10:36:45 AM
It has always been a possibility that Madeleine is dead and possibly killed by an intruder who attempted to shut her up if she woke and was about to start screaming. But most of us prefer to hope that she is still alive, so we tend not to think about it. On the other hand, No McCann Sceptic is ever going to entertain the idea that an intruder could have killed Madeleine because this might exonerate The McCanns.
Now that this possibility has been raised we are attempting to discuss it, hopefully without too much abuse.
So why don't the sceptics come up with reasons for why this unlikely?
What we would like is some proof, or at least some evidence that this is what happened.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2014, 10:44:27 AM
Since when has it been 'politically correct' to call a black person or a person of African origin 'tanned'. ? That's a new one on me.
Wishful thinking on a grand scale imo.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 11:06:37 AM
Since when has it been 'politically correct' to call a black person or a person of African origin 'tanned'. ? That's a new one on me.
Wishful thinking on a grand scale imo.
That the best you can up with as a response lol? Out of everything I posted that's the only thing you can question? You could have at least made an effort to refute the logic behind why AR is suddenly bringing the possibility that Madeleine was not alive BEFORE leaving 5a. Do you dispute that it takes 1.5 hours for cadaver odour to develop? Do you think an intruder would hang around for 1.5 hours? Where was he when all the 'checks' were going on? How can Gerry McCann now explain his 9.10 check and as soneone said earlier, his proud father moment?
It is you who is subject to a huge bout of wishful thinking.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 11:17:20 AM
Alright, in this particular scenario involving a serial offender, I find it unlikely that he would change his MO so dramatically, that he would leave children able to identify him alive (not the twins, the other victims) yet take a corpse. That he would not leave any sign of being in the apartment, not just no sign of a break in but no hair or fingerprint or DNA sample.
Given the the lack of evidence, he would either have had to have worn gloves/protective clothings, or have taken the time to clean up. If we're taking the checks on the children as fact, there's no time for a clean up operation, if gloves, no need to remove a body.
Plus everything that Serendipity just said.
He could have left forensic evidence from clothing on Madeleine if he had held her close in an attempt to restrain her. Gloves seem obvious, perhaps, but he would hardly have been wandering around in protective clothing.
Personally, I don't buy it because I think the two crimes are unconnected.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 11:19:23 AM
That the best you can up with as a response lol? Out of everything I posted that's the only thing you can question? You could have at least made an effort to refute the logic behind why AR is suddenly bringing the possibility that Madeleine was not alive BEFORE leaving 5a. Do you dispute that it takes 1.5 hours for cadaver odour to develop? Do you think an intruder would hang around for 1.5 hours? Where was he when all the 'checks' were going on? How can Gerry McCann now explain his 9.10 check and as soneone said earlier, his proud father moment?
It is you who is subject to a huge bout of wishful thinking.
You are assuming that there was a Death Scent.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 11:25:25 AM
Andy Redwood clearly thinks there was or he would not have even been able to suggest that Madeleine was not alive when she left 5a. There is absolutley nothing else that has arisen in this case that would make that suggestion possible.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 11:42:23 AM
Andy Redwood clearly thinks there was or he would not have even been able to suggest that Madeleine was not alive when she left 5a. There is absolutley nothing else that has arisen in this case that would make that suggestion possible.
Don't be silly. Andy Redwood doesn't clearly think there was a Death Scent. It was just always possible. The Police don't need a Death Scent to think that something might have happened. No crime would ever be solved otherwise.
"Sorry, No Death Scent, so no one can have been killed or died."
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 11:55:40 AM
Don't be silly. Andy Redwood doesn't clearly think there was a Death Scent. It was just always possible. The Police don't need a Death Scent to think that something might have happened. No crime would ever be solved otherwise.
"Sorry, No Death Scent, so no one can have been killed or died."
You tell me why AR has suddenly changed from his stance that Madeleine may or may not be alive in general to being much more specific about her possibly NOT being alive BEFORE she left 5a? Something has made him change his stance and to allow him to even make the suggestion of such a possibility and to be so specific as to the timescales of a possible death in 5a.
Face it, AR knows what he is doing re suggestion of Madeleine's possible death before 8.30pm on 3/5/2007 and no amount of strawclutching from you and your cohorts will convince me otherwise
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: sadie on March 21, 2014, 12:20:11 PM
So they neither took any notice of the sexual assaults on children
Nor
Could they do eFits 8(8-)) and 8()(((@#
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 12:45:24 PM
The Carolina Santos incident is a strange one. A tanned skin man of Moroccan origin walks off with the local cafe owners daughter in what has been claimed to have been a dispute between the two. Could there be more to this than first thought?
Remember that this occurred just over 4 months before Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 01:14:24 PM
A number of posts by two members have been removed as inappropriate. One of who seems to believe it to be a badge of honour for some unknown reason.
Posters are reminded not to post any material of an accusatory nature towards any person unless they have absolute proof that they have been involved in a crime. TY
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 01:18:11 PM
Where have all my posts gone about CPS invoking Section 9 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 which allows them to investigate British nationals for offences committed on foreign soil?
The very fact that CPS are involved means that section 9 has been invoked. How can this forum ignore this important and relevant information?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 01:28:35 PM
Where have all my posts gone about CPS invoking Section 9 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 which allows them to investigate British nationals for offences committed on foreign soil?
The very fact that CPS are involved means that section 9 has been invoked. How can this forum ignore this important and relevant information?
You may start a new thread to debate this issue but no reference should be made to any specific individual.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 01:37:34 PM
You tell me why AR has suddenly changed from his stance that Madeleine may or may not be alive in general to being much more specific about her possibly NOT being alive BEFORE she left 5a? Something has made him change his stance and to allow him to even make the suggestion of such a possibility and to be so specific as to the timescales of a possible death in 5a.
Face it, AR knows what he is doing re suggestion of Madeleine's possible death before 8.30pm on 3/5/2007 and no amount of strawclutching from you and your cohorts will convince me otherwise
you are making assumptions...as far as I am concerned the death of maddie in the apt has always been a possibility.....the fact that you are not convinced is totally unimportant...remember Redwood said the Mccanns are not suspects..I suppose the fact that he has not said it this week makes you think he has changed his mind
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 01:42:12 PM
You tell me why AR has suddenly changed from his stance that Madeleine may or may not be alive in general to being much more specific about her possibly NOT being alive BEFORE she left 5a? Something has made him change his stance and to allow him to even make the suggestion of such a possibility and to be so specific as to the timescales of a possible death in 5a.
Face it, AR knows what he is doing re suggestion of Madeleine's possible death before 8.30pm on 3/5/2007 and no amount of strawclutching from you and your cohorts will convince me otherwise
Does he? I'm not so sure.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 01:47:07 PM
that's right Jassi...when he said the McCanns were not suspects and was chasing others he was an idiot but now posters mistakenly think he is pointing towards the McCanns he is a star. I think he is a star and he does not suspect the McCanns
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 01:50:22 PM
that's right Jassi...when he said the McCanns were not suspects and was chasing others he was an idiot but now posters mistakenly think he is pointing towards the McCanns he is a star. I think he is a star and he does not suspect the McCanns
One can't pick & choose, though - either everything he says is gospel, or nothing is.
I can't determine whether he is a devilishly clever detective, or an average one promoted beyond his ability.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 21, 2014, 02:47:21 PM
Andy Redwood is being very clever in my opinion. The crux of Redwoods appeal yesterday is in his wording. As has been pointed out by a few people already, he did not say that possibly Madeleine may no longer be alive, he made the point of saying that she possibly may not have been alive BEFORE she left the apartment
He will know that it takes a minimum of 1.5 hours before cadaver scent develops on a body. Assuming for a moment that Eddie alerted correctly to a cadaver and again assuming that that cadaver was Madeleine, that would totally throw Gerry's check at 9.10pm out of the window as was pointed out yesterday by others, there just ISN'T enough time between 9.10pm and the 10pm alert by Kate for a body to be detectable by a cadaver dog scent wise!
The purpose of the appeal for Binman/Tractorman is purely to eliminate him from their enquiries. Mr Redwood knows how highly unlikely it is that Binman/tractorman entered the apartment, sat on Madeleine's bed, killed her and then waited around for an hour and a half for cadaver odour to develop before making his escape with her body!
He also knows that Binman/Tractorman died in 2009. http://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto
This post has been edited by Senior Editor so as to comply with forum rules.
There are several threads on this issue, and it is not as straightforward as you seem to assume.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 21, 2014, 02:55:13 PM
No I know the Smiths didn't say so. Am going on assumption that an awake child would have had their arms around the adults neck or shoulders? The childs arms were down by her sides. Likely asleep,drugged or dead. The weather was said to be chilly and windy at 10pm. How likely is it that a child in pj's,no coat or blanket would have stayed asleep in those conditions? Not impossible but not likely either imo.
Some kids wake up, others stay sound asleep. Little Sean was fast asleep on the noisy tarmac.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 21, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
As DCI Rdwood would also know a scent of cadaver odour does not a murder case make. The fact that a scen tof cadaver odour was picked picked up in Apartment 5a does not of necessity mean somebody died there. Only think of police embarrassment re the Shannon Matthews case
What has to be proved beyond all reasonable doubt is how it got there. A corpse is only one possibility -cross-contamination is another.
An innocent scent is yet another...
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 03:20:14 PM
There are several threads on this issue, and it is not as straightforward as you seem to assume.
Ahh sorry to pee on your bonfire but it is THAT straightfoward. :)
'The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.'
In the case study referenced gauze pads were placed on the abdominal area of 5 decedents for exactly 20 minutes before being taken away and used for testing. The decedents had been dead between 70 minutes and 3 days. In the case of the earliest positive scenting the time was logged at 1 hr 25 mins
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 03:23:38 PM
You misunderstand me Jassi. I'm not saying there was no cadaver odour present . The question is how it got there. You can't stand up in Court. and claim 'We found a trace of cadaver odour ipso facto there must have been a corpse there.
I think that's the bit they don't get.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
How about you stand up in court & say...
'We found a trace of cadaver odour, no missing person has ever shown up alive after a death dog indicated that they weren't, therefore your honour it is pretty bleedin obvious that she aint."
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 04:37:22 PM
'We found a trace of cadaver odour, no missing person has ever shown up alive after a death dog indicated that they weren't, therefore your honour it is pretty bleedin obvious that she aint."
It wouldn't wash in Court I'm afraid.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 04:39:14 PM
Why should there be an innocent scent? Why ever not?
Have you the least idea just how cross-contaminable cadaver odour is? Just ask your local undertake.
And never forget blood!
We've long known about Paul Gordon's shaving cut.
But I am indebted to Anna for unearthing a whole host of other witness statements indicating that others besides did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a:
Are we really to believe no one bled in any other apartments?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 04:46:32 PM
How about standing up in court and saying...In my OPINION the dogs MAY have alerted to cadaverine contaminant...and IF they did it could be as a result of several scenarios...
Try sticking to the truth...its not quite so dramatic though is it
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
This is such a waste of time. Dogs, Dogs, Dogs. When even their handler doesn't know what they were alerting to. And no Court would accept them as Evidence.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 04:48:40 PM
How about standing up in court and saying...In my OPINION the dogs MAY have alerted to cadaverine contaminant...and IF they did it could be as a result of several scenarios...
Try sticking to the truth...its not quite so dramatic though is it
That's fair enough. Even 'experts' only have opinions.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 21, 2014, 05:02:56 PM
Hello, I seem to think that there was an alert in the case of one of the young ladies kidnapped in the USA I can't remember all the details but was it during the hunt for Gina de Jesus. Who of course later turned up safe and well.
Cue frantic Google search @)(++(*
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 05:05:26 PM
So tell me what else could possibly make him suggest the possibility of Madeleine not being alive BEFORE she left 5a?
Because he has to keep a sense of proportion about this. He is running an investigation for heaven's sake. Not a Tea Party where everyone goes home happy. All possibilities have to be considered.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 05:12:57 PM
Hello, I seem to think that there was an alert in the case of one of the young ladies kidnapped in the USA I can't remember all the details but was it during the hunt for Gina de Jesus. Who of course later turned up safe and well.
I believe so, but I can't remember the precise details.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 05:20:08 PM
Hello, I seem to think that there was an alert in the case of one of the young ladies kidnapped in the USA I can't remember all the details but was it during the hunt for Gina de Jesus. Who of course later turned up safe and well.
In September 2006, police acting on a tip tore up the concrete floor of the garage and used a cadaver dog to search unsuccessfully for DeJesus' body.
Because he has to keep a sense of proportion about this. He is running an investigation for heaven's sake. Not a Tea Party where everyone goes home happy. All possibilities have to be considered.
Why was he so specific about timing? Why BEFORE she left the apartment? Why not just say there is a chance that she may not still be alive?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 21, 2014, 05:36:56 PM
Ahh sorry to pee on your bonfire but it is THAT straightfoward. :)
'The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.'
In the case study referenced gauze pads were placed on the abdominal area of 5 decedents for exactly 20 minutes before being taken away and used for testing. The decedents had been dead between 70 minutes and 3 days. In the case of the earliest positive scenting the time was logged at 1 hr 25 mins
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
It dates back to 97. Under which conditions was this done? Has this been noted in the scientific journals?
NOTES: We emphasize our inability to control all variables during our project. It has been impossible for us to obtain scent samples and carry out the trials under strictly controlled conditions. We had no control over the environmental conditions under which our samples were gathered, manner and cause of death, nor could we exercise tight regulation over the quantity of samples of any one given time interval. Since there are periods in which our samples are few and far between, this project has no set deadline and will be ongoing for a time. Our intention is not to offer an absolute answer to the questions posed, but to initiate an ongoing dialogue and offer what we hope is a point of departure for other exciting research projects. This will shed light on the under-navigated and sometimes mysterious arena of canine olfaction applied to body recovery.
Is that it?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
Why was he so specific about timing? Why BEFORE she left the apartment? Why not just say there is a chance that she may not still be alive?
Scotland Yard's investigation has to acknowlege the fact that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where the missing child was last seen alive
They have to because there is no evidence to suggest the dog was wrong ... it is entirely possible that the dog DID alert to the missing child's dead body having been in that apartment, and Redwood has to investigate that possibility
That was, I believe, the reason he made public for the first time that Madeleine may have died in the apartment
The difficulty is, of course, if the dog was right ( and the scent of the child's dead body had been detected ) then the time at which she died must be set at least one and a half hours before Kate found her missing ( in order for cadaverine odour to have been present )
... and that would have to mean that Madeleine was already dead when Gerry made his 9.05 check
Quite a hornet's nest that Redwood has stirred
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 06:24:04 PM
Scotland Yard's investigation has to acknowlege the fact that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where the missing child was last seen alive
They have to because there is no evidence to suggest the dog was wrong ... it is entirely possible that the dog DID alert to the missing child's dead body having been in that apartment, and Redwood has to investigate that possibility
That was, I believe, the reason he made public for the first time that Madeleine may have died in the apartment
The difficulty is, of course, if the dog was right ( and the scent of the child's dead body had been detected ) then the time at which she died must be set at least one and a half hours before Kate found her missing ( in order for cadaverine odour to have been present )
... and that would have to mean that Madeleine was already dead when Gerry made his 9.05 check
Quite a hornet's nest that Redwood has stirred
Why would he even mention it though? He didn't have to, what use is it for the public to know?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 06:25:00 PM
Scotland Yard's investigation has to acknowlege the fact that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where the missing child was last s een alive
The spurious and often inaccurately reported forensic findings, the irrelevant behaviour of the cadaver dogs, .
(Ian Horrocks)
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 06:28:37 PM
Scotland Yard's investigation has to acknowlege the fact that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where the missing child was last seen alive
They have to because there is no evidence to suggest the dog was wrong ... it is entirely possible that the dog DID alert to the missing child's dead body having been in that apartment, and Redwood has to investigate that possibility
That was, I believe, the reason he made public for the first time that Madeleine may have died in the apartment
The difficulty is, of course, if the dog was right ( and the scent of the child's dead body had been detected ) then the time at which she died must be set at least one and a half hours before Kate found her missing ( in order for cadaverine odour to have been present )
... and that would have to mean that Madeleine was already dead when Gerry made his 9.05 check
Quite a hornet's nest that Redwood has stirred
but there IS evidence that the dog might be wrong..Grime's statement...and Redwood has already stated that maddie may still be alive which CONFIRMS he does not accept the alerts
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 06:28:59 PM
Why would he even mention it though? He didn't have to, what use is it for the public to know?
It must be something SY are seriously considering and either he was just burbling on and his mouth was working faster than his brain, or he was giving the public a message not to expect a live Madeleine.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 06:30:21 PM
but there IS evidence that the dog might be wrong..Grime's statement...and Redwood has already stated that maddie may still be alive which CONFIRMS he does not accept the alerts
Alternatively it might mean that he hasn't come to any firm conclusion.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 06:31:13 PM
but there IS evidence that the dog might be wrong..Grime's statement...and Redwood has already stated that maddie may still be alive which CONFIRMS he does not accept the alerts
How many times did you spot them age progressed pictures of her on Crimewatch?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 06:33:40 PM
Ah but for Andy Redwood to even suggest that Madeleine may not have been alive BEFORE leaving 5a he must think that the alerts are far from meaningless. For him to say that he must think that that possibility will have had to have been before 8.30pm due to the minimum time that it takes for cadaver odour to develop as has been explained to you before.
Martin trust his dogs and as far as he is concerned, Eddie alerted to the scent of a cadaver. Inconclusive forensic evidence does not make Eddie wrong and remember too that the forensics did not rule Madeleine out.
Are your hands not sore by now with all this strawclutching?
IIRC Martin Grime has never once claimed his dog alerted to the scent of a cadaver - i.e. a dead body. He only referred to cadaverscent - and also gave all the various reasons why such an alert by Eddie did not prove a dead body had ever been in the place where the dog alerted.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 06:39:00 PM
IIRC Martin Grime has never once claimed his dog alerted to the scent of a cadaver - i.e. a dead body. He only referred to cadaverscent - and also gave all the various reasons why such an alert by Eddie did not prove a dead body had ever been in the place where the dog alerted.
But it is entirely possible that the cadaver dog did alert because he detected the scent of the missing child's dead body, isn't it ?
And Scotland Yard would be remiss if they did not consider ( and investigate ) that possibility, wouldn't they ?
[... speculative removed ...]
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 21, 2014, 06:42:16 PM
What is it with internet posters obsessed with an irrational and baseless wish, both for Madeleine to be dead and for Kate and/or Gerry to be the culprits?
Everything leads to a man running away with a child matching Madeleine's description in a deep sleep straight after she is reported missing. And not a dark tanned man. Reason for routine change? That will be investigated - would she have disappeared if the daily routine hadn't changed? What really happened from 6.30-7pm?
Just look at Redwood's wry smile when he says "We have still not identified who that man is so if it is you then please come forward" re Smithman "This is very clearly relevant to us!"
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 06:47:14 PM
Scotland Yard's investigation has to acknowlege the fact that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where the missing child was last seen alive
They have to because there is no evidence to suggest the dog was wrong ... it is entirely possible that the dog DID alert to the missing child's dead body having been in that apartment, and Redwood has to investigate that possibility
That was, I believe, the reason he made public for the first time that Madeleine may have died in the apartment
The difficulty is, of course, if the dog was right ( and the scent of the child's dead body had been detected ) then the time at which she died must be set at least one and a half hours before Kate found her missing ( in order for cadaverine odour to have been present )
... and that would have to mean that Madeleine was already dead when Gerry made his 9.05 check
Quite a hornet's nest that Redwood has stirred
I understand what you are saying about the dogs, but how can we divine his reason?
Surely there could be many.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 07:09:00 PM
I understand what you are saying about the dogs, but how can we divine his reason?
Surely there could be many.
Are there ?
I can't think of any reason for Andy Redwood to acknowledge publicly that he thinks Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... other than consideration being given to the cadaver dog's alerts
Can you think of any ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 21, 2014, 07:12:52 PM
I can't think of any reason for Andy Redwood to acknowledge publicly that he thinks Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... other than consideration being given to the cadaver dog's alerts
Can you think of any ?
Off the top of my head no, but I will certainly think about it.
But that's not the point.
Any suggestion of why specifically he is saying what he is saying / what he must be thinking at the exclusion of all else, however, is divination - a talent I don't have.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 07:14:36 PM
I can't think of any reason for Andy Redwood to acknowledge publicly that he thinks Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... other than consideration being given to the cadaver dog's alerts
Can you think of any ?
If he believed the cadaver dogs alerts he would be saying Maddie did die in the apartment...he isn't saying that
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 07:15:54 PM
Nor is he specifically excluding the possibility.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2014, 07:16:44 PM
no it isn't...the fact that a burglar may have woken maddie...and been killed accidentally...has already been discussed on this forum
But why should SY even think that unless they were paying some attention to the dogs? There's no physical evidence that a burglar, or 3, was even there, let alone killed anyone.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 07:49:20 PM
You haven't told me, and I'm intensely interested in viable alternatives.
Read my posts.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 21, 2014, 07:51:17 PM
What about, for example, if they have information that could suggest Smithman was carrying a dead child (as mentioned previously). Assuming the child was Madeleine, that is.
The chances of that death having occurred in the apartment, given the timing, would be reasonably high.
I am not suggesting that's what happened - it's just an example of a possibility.
Surely, logically, there are several possibilities - because there is a great deal of information about what happened that night that we don't have.
If the facts to hand represented all there was to know, then we could perhaps infer to exactly what certain statements relate. But we don't have all the facts, and therefore there are other things Redwood may have in mind when he speaks.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 07:52:57 PM
But why should SY even think that unless they were paying some attention to the dogs? There's no physical evidence that a burglar, or 3, was even there, let alone killed anyone.
But we don't know what evidence Scotland Yard - or other forces - may have.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 07:55:57 PM
Andy Redwood said Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in the apartment
We can agree on that, cant' we ?
What we are discussing is Why the Yard think that
I am suggesting it is because a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment
I think that is most logical conclusion to draw
The problem is some would rather avoid the logical conclusions, like Smithman for example, buried under Bundleman for as long as they could, and they still don't want to let go of him.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 08:01:41 PM
What about, for example, if they have information that could suggest Smithman was carrying a dead child (as mentioned previously). Assuming the child was Madeleine, that is.
The chances of that death having occurred in the apartment, given the timing, would be reasonably high.
I am not suggesting that's what happened - it's just an example of a possibility.
Surely, logically, there are several possibilities - because there is a great deal of information about what happened that night that we don't have.
If the facts to hand represented all there was to know, then we could perhaps infer to exactly what certain statements relate. But we don't have all the facts, and therefore there are other things Redwood may have in mind when he speaks.
I don't understand why it is necessary to 'imagine' what might have lead Scotland Yard into thinking Madeleine might have died in the apartment when we a fully aware of the information they DO have that would lead then into thinking it
The fact that a cadaver dog alerted there
Why on earth is that being rejected as an explanation for the Yard considering the possibility that Madeleine died in apartment 5A ?
Why is it important to find a reason other than Scotland Yard giving consideration to the cadaver dog intelligence ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 08:05:55 PM
I don't understand why it is necessary to 'imagine' what might have lead Scotland Yard into thinking Madeleine might have died in the apartment when we a fully aware of the information they DO have that would lead then into thinking it
The fact that a cadaver dog alerted there
Why on earth is that being rejected as an explanation for the Yard considering the possibility that Madeleine died in apartment 5A ?
Why is it important to find a reason other than Scotland Yard giving consideration to the cadaver dog intelligence ?
Because you are not allowed to hog the reasons. This Forum is a Democracy and we all get to have a go.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 08:07:04 PM
I don't understand why it is necessary to 'imagine' what might have lead Scotland Yard into thinking Madeleine might have died in the apartment when we a fully aware of the information they DO have that would lead then into thinking it
The fact that a cadaver dog alerted there
Why on earth is that being rejected as an explanation for the Yard considering the possibility that Madeleine died in apartment 5A ?
Why is it important to find a reason other than Scotland Yard giving consideration to the cadaver dog intelligence ?
Because the deniers fear where it might lead.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 08:15:14 PM
Because you are not allowed to hog the reasons. This Forum is a Democracy and we all get to have a go.
Of course, but it seems the position being taken by some members is :
"Yes, we accept that Scotland Yard think Madeleine might have died in the apartment, but we reject it has anything to with the Yard knowing a cadaver dog alerted there
The Yard must have some 'other' reason for thinking Madeleine might have died in apartment 5A, because it can't be related to the intelligence gathered through cadaver dog deployment ... it just CAN'T !"
It is not a rational position to take
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 08:24:47 PM
Of course, but it seems the position being taken by some members is :
"Yes, we accept that Scotland Yard think Madeleine might have died in the apartment, but we reject it has anything to with the Yard knowing a cadaver dog alerted there
The Yard must have some 'other' reason for thinking Madeleine might have died in apartment 5A, because it can't be related to the intelligence gathered through cadaver dog deployment ... it just CAN'T !"
It is not a rational position to take
The Yard COULD have other reasons. Your reason hasn't cornered the market.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 08:34:31 PM
Of course, but it seems the position being taken by some members is :
"Yes, we accept that Scotland Yard think Madeleine might have died in the apartment, but we reject it has anything to with the Yard knowing a cadaver dog alerted there
The Yard must have some 'other' reason for thinking Madeleine might have died in apartment 5A, because it can't be related to the intelligence gathered through cadaver dog deployment ... it just CAN'T !"
It is not a rational position to take
It is perfectly rational....death in the apt would have been an option with or without the alerts...do you not agree
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 08:37:37 PM
A known death in the apartment would give more validity to the alert. If a possible death is conceded, what is the problem with the alert being likely to be correct?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 08:42:17 PM
A known death in the apartment would give more validity to the alert. If a possible death is conceded, what is the problem with the alert being likely to be correct?
so the alert is more valid with a known death...so it does not stand alone...what an admission
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 08:44:18 PM
so the alert is more valid with a known death...so it does not stand alone...what an admission
I thought all agreed that in the absence of other evidence, alerts were merely an indication of death. The dogs probably are correct, but without supportive evidence, this cannot be proved absolutely.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 08:49:08 PM
I thought all agreed that in the absence of other evidence, alerts were merely an indication of death. The dogs probably are correct, but without supportive evidence, this cannot be proved absolutely.
absolutely not
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 08:52:33 PM
So, perhaps, SY have some additional evidence, that we are not aware of.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 08:54:16 PM
This thread has now been edited, please keep all posts relative to title ... TY.
A couple of points which I must highlight. Eddie's alerts in the apartment and the hire car could have been to many substances other than that related to a cadaver. Martin Grime admitted this.
Can you link to where he says this?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
None of these people are suspects, merely people of interest. Apparently Redwood has a list of some 500 known paedophiles to work through, so he'll probably be at it until he draws his pension.
Actually there are 530 registered sex offenders (a minority are paedophiles) that UK put on several countries instead of in prison, payed by British taxpayers, enjoying the sunny mediterranean beaches, and without those countries' authorities knowledge. Some of those are on the files the PJ was asked to suppress from the case files that were released to the public.
If Redwood/NSY keeps putting out false information, maybe CNN, Al Jazeera, Russian Today & other independent TV channels will have a field day soon when they receive those "secret files".
To keep on topic. If Redwood now admits that maybe "Madeleine didn't leave the apartment the way" «they wanted us to believe», it's because he knows what really happened and is preparing the ground for the truth.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Luz on March 22, 2014, 02:08:08 AM
What's a relief is that, resolved or re-archived in Portugal, the investigation will give place to the publicizing of the process and, I bet that, this time no files will be suppressed to save face to NSY, Home Office or Mr. David Cameron. Dead or alive, found or unfound, inquiries obey deadlines....Soon we will have news.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 22, 2014, 02:09:42 AM
Once again we're going back to the daily routine change before 7pm which you have to investigate after cadaver scent alerts. And if you like contradictions then read KM & DP statements about his visit.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: colombosstogey on March 22, 2014, 06:42:45 AM
To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
So basically now they are looking at the fact she may have died in the apartment, but then she might not have.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 22, 2014, 08:57:30 AM
To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
So basically now they are looking at the fact she may have died in the apartment, but then she might not have.
Thankfully though Madeleine is a real, living, findable child.
Which is reassurring to know, as I was prevoiusly of the opinion that she was a synthetic, deceased, untraceable adult.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Serendipity on March 22, 2014, 09:19:07 AM
Thankfully though Madeleine is a real, living, findable child.
Which is reassurring to know, as I was prevoiusly of the opinion that she was a synthetic, deceased, untraceable adult.
So nothing has changed from that atatement then. They merely clarified and reiterated the possibility that she was not alive BEFORE leaving 5a, something that they have not done before as previously all statements simply said that they think that she may or may not be alive and did not pinpoint a timescale.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 22, 2014, 01:28:31 PM
To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
So basically now they are looking at the fact she may have died in the apartment, but then she might not have.
UMMM... did everybody miss this?
This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment " on"may not follow with all our thinking the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment " on"may not follow with all our thinking the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
So he actually said that she may not have been abducted and that she may not have been alive when she left the apartment!
Jesus! That is big news!
But if she was murdered, before being removed & disposed of by smelly binman guy, then it's not really abduction is it, and that's what he meant....is the kind of rebuttal we are likely to see.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 22, 2014, 01:46:09 PM
Whatever DCI Redwood said there could be other possibilities a bungled burglary or bungled attempted abduction that went horribly wrong and it wouldn’t be for the first time either. Whatever it’s time we all kept an open mind not jump to conclusions because that’s what suits OUR particular ‘theory’.
Thank you for that important reminder, PV.
Unfortunately, things have become so polarised in the Madeleine case that it is hard for people - with the best will in the world- to do that.
Often when a new piece of 'evidence' comes along, it is shoehorned into one theory or another, rather being evaluated on its own merits.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 22, 2014, 01:47:57 PM
But if she was murdered, before being removed & disposed of by smelly binman guy, then it's not really abduction is it, and that's what he meant....is the kind of rebuttal we are likely to see.
Technically that would not be abduction - or would it? Is that splitting hairs, or a true distinction?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 22, 2014, 01:56:40 PM
Andy Redwood is hardly likely to even suggest that The McCanns are involved in the death of their daughter, on television, in the middle of a Crimewatch Programme.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 22, 2014, 02:00:43 PM
Andy Redwood is hardly likely to even suggest that The McCanns are involved in the death of their daughter, on television, in the middle of a Crimewatch Programme.
@)(++(* Too right, he isn't. Professional suicide and financial ruin would be staring him the face.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 22, 2014, 02:02:13 PM
Andy Redwood is hardly likely to even suggest that The McCanns are involved in the death of their daughter, on television, in the middle of a Crimewatch Programme.
isn't this what amaral did...though not on crimewatch
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 22, 2014, 07:14:05 PM
This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment " on"may not follow with all our thinking the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
So he actually said that she may not have been abducted and that she may not have been alive when she left the apartment!
Jesus! That is big news!
What's the big news?
3. Law. the illegal carrying or enticing away of a person, especially by interfering with a relationship, as the taking of a child from its parent. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abduction
She may or may not have been alive when she was taken out of the apartment.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 22, 2014, 07:23:10 PM
I'm honestly genuinely surprised that neither 'side' see Andy Redwood saying that Madeleine being abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case, is a big deal.
I interpret that as indicating that not all of the team are singing from the same hymn sheet and that there is dissent in the camp.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 22, 2014, 07:28:44 PM
I'm honestly genuinely surprised that neither 'side' see Andy Redwood saying that Madeleine being abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case, is a big deal.
I read the clarification again. I still understand it to mean that she may or may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. If this child-bed-obsessed pervert was involved in this case and had escalated his level of offending, then she might not have left the apartment alive.
For the moment, it's not clear whether this guy (whoever it was) was involved or not, nor even whether there was only one guy involved in similar activities from 2004-2010. It's not clear either whether this type of pervert would necessarily have killed her or simply wanted her for himself.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 22, 2014, 07:54:49 PM
I read the clarification again. I still understand it to mean that she may or may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. If this child-bed-obsessed pervert was involved in this case and had escalated his level of offending, then she might not have left the apartment alive.
For the moment, it's not clear whether this guy (whoever it was) was involved or not, nor even whether there was only one guy involved in similar activities from 2004-2010. It's not clear either whether this type of pervert would necessarily have killed her or simply wanted her for himself.
This sort of person usually does both. Not that there is any evidence, of course, to suggest that Madeleine was removed by this, or any similarly-motivated person.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 22, 2014, 07:56:53 PM
I read the clarification again. I still understand it to mean that she may or may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. If this child-bed-obsessed pervert was involved in this case and had escalated his level of offending, then she might not have left the apartment alive.
For the moment, it's not clear whether this guy (whoever it was) was involved or not, nor even whether there was only one guy involved in similar activities from 2004-2010. It's not clear either whether this type of pervert would necessarily have killed her or simply wanted her for himself.
I just read it again too:
• This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
• This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve I still think that the 'not abducted' was separate to not alive when she left the apartment'.
I wonder if the Guardian would clarify their clarification? 8)-)))
I think SH has suggested that technically, you can't abduct a corpse, so perhaps that's the reason for separation.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 22, 2014, 08:05:38 PM
• This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
I wonder why, if Redwood is being totally straight with us, he should have such difficulty saying anything approaching a coherent sentence.
Some people are just 'naturals' when put in front of a camera - he obviously isn't. No high-ranking future for him, I suspect.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 22, 2014, 10:38:33 PM
For the McCann supporters -
IF Madeleine died in 5a (that's now two separate investigations which have said the same thing) then WHEN was she murdered?
Cadaverine takes a while to develop. The decomposition process must start. We're not talking hours here but more than minutes too.
Madeleine was allegedly sleeping soundly when Gerry had his trip to the WC so she was alive then.
Gerry also says the perp may have been in the apartment at that time.
He must've had a bath. No one smelt him, saw him, or heard him DESPITE the constant milling around that night.
The bed linen was entirely undisturbed. I would expect to see at least a butt mark where he'd sat on the bed, no doubt contemplating the beautiful child.
Why didn't Kate smell him either? His BO would have wafted to her on the "whoosh" of wind.
Also, SY have TOLD US in no uncertain terms that Smithman is The One, yet Smithman was clean cut, neatly dressed, presumably not odorous either.
Smithman is not dark skinned, long haired, or unkempt, so clearly is neither Euclides nor Smellyman.
Smellyman is accused of bed sitting for 12 children, but only "assaulting" two - who remained alive to talk about it.
Bit of a change from that, to murdering a baby and abducting her corpse, wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 22, 2014, 11:39:05 PM
Sherlock, are you really saying that? I did read the post, but I noticed that you posed it more as a question. You asked if it was splitting hairs.
Yes, yes it was.
I posed it as a question as I really don't know, Cariad. I would have thought that technically speaking, abduction is the removal of a living person. Often for ransom, though not necessarily. When you say I'm splitting hairs, that's probably correct!
In the middle of writing this I have looked the word up in several dictionaries (and also the word 'kidnapping', which appears to mean essentially the same thing), and the main meaning is that a person is taken against their will.
I had a feeling that that was part of the meaning, and that's what was niggling me: a person who is dead is not being taken against their will.
Whether this technicality is of any interest to police as far as their investigations and communications go - our original context for this question - I don't know. What do you think DCI Redwood meant?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 22, 2014, 11:47:48 PM
I'm not a pro McCann supporter - I'm just keeping an open mind 2 Who says Madeleine was murdered? The possibility that she might not have been alive when she disappeared does not make it a fact. 3 If it had been a case of death occurring and the body removed fairly quickly no time for cadaver odour to gather in the apartment. 4 A suspect has been mentioned of dubious personal hygiene but that doesn't mean he was the actual perp. 5 Euclides Monteiro has also been mentioned in connection with the disappearance but again once again not as the actual perp. 6. A scent of cadaver odour does not a murder case make nor mean that there had to be a corpse in situ at some point.
wow....do you know anything about this case?
Sir BHH used the word "murder".
Three separate police investigations also found that Madeleine "may not have left 5a alive" which confirms Eddie's work.
STILL not good enough for you?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 12:07:13 AM
I'm not a pro McCann supporter - I'm just keeping an open mind 2 Who says Madeleine was murdered? The possibility that she might not have been alive when she disappeared does not make it a fact. 3 If it had been a case of death occurring and the body removed fairly quickly no time for cadaver odour to gather in the apartment. 4 A suspect has been mentioned of dubious personal hygiene but that doesn't mean he was the actual perp. 5 Euclides Monteiro has also been mentioned in connection with the disappearance but again once again not as the actual perp. 6. A scent of cadaver odour does not a murder case make nor mean that there had to be a corpse in situ at some point.
That's what sticks in my craw though ... and I really do keep an open mind
Here we are being asked to accept that Madeleine's dead body, might, indeed, have been in that apartment ... but we are STILL being asked to believe the cadaver dog was not alerting to it !
Why ?
Why, if the possibility of Madeleine having died in apartment 5A has been accepted by all ( including Scotland Yard ) is it denied that the cadaver dog detected the scent of that dead body ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 23, 2014, 12:09:04 AM
That's what sticks in my craw though ... and I really do keep an open mind
Here we are being asked to accept that Madeleine's dead body, might, indeed, have been in that apartment ... but we are STILL being asked to believe the cadaver dog was not alerting to it !
Why ?
Why, if the possibility of Madeleine having died in apartment 5A has been accepted by all ( including Scotland Yard ) is it denied that the cadaver dog detected the scent of that dead body ?
Because Gerry says so.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 23, 2014, 12:13:13 AM
May not is the conditional tense. Conditional does not make it fact. As for Sir BHH he should have been more careful in his choice of words. I wasn't aware that it had been turned into a murder enquiry. As it is may not does NOT confirm Eddie's work
A scent of cadaver odour is not the be-all and end-all. It has to be established beyond all reasonable doubt how it got there. No body, inconclusive forensics, no case.
What three separate police investigations?. Do please specify
Oops sorry I meant FOUR.
The GNR on the night The Leics Police The PJ Now SY
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 12:32:00 AM
That's what sticks in my craw though ... and I really do keep an open mind
Here we are being asked to accept that Madeleine's dead body, might, indeed, have been in that apartment ... but we are STILL being asked to believe the cadaver dog was not alerting to it !
Why ?
Why, if the possibility of Madeleine having died in apartment 5A has been accepted by all ( including Scotland Yard ) is it denied that the cadaver dog detected the scent of that dead body ?
For the simple reason it has to be established beyond all reasonable doubt that the scent did come from Madeleine's corpse and we don't even know for certain that she is dead It is a possibility but it is not yet established and beyond all reasonable doubt fact..
Yes yes
... but if we accept that Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in that apartment, is it it really such a leap of faith to accept that the cadaver dog who alerted there had detected the scent of her dead body ?
I mean, isn't it just common sense to make that obvious connection ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 01:37:01 AM
In matters such as this it is not wise to jump to conclusions. The stumbling block is proof and the FFS tests were inconclusive. At the moment it remains a possibility not a fact.
I mentioned earlier that the prosecution's job is fraught with difficulties and the legal maxim is that the burden of proof falls on the prosecution who have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the scentpicked up by Eddie did in fact emanate from Madeleine's corpse. Do tell me how they are going to do that while death remains only a possibility. What are you suggesting? That we put a couple in the dock because of a possibility that cannot be proved at this particular time? If the police come up with the evidence fair enough but they're not there yet.
All we've have so far is conjecture and speculation. What we don't have is the evidence to convict and that is what the prosecution needs evidence to convict. As it is not everybody charged ends up in Court and there have been occasions when CPS got it badly wrong such as the cot death trials. Last but not least every prosecutor's worst nightmare - the defence lawyer(s) who pull(s) the case apart.
You seem to think that the only possibility for the presence of cadaver odour is that there was a corpse in a situ at some point. I'm sorry but that is not the only possible explanation and as as far as I'm aware other possibilities have not been eliminated yet.
Scotland Yard have said that Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A
A dog trained to bark when he detected the ''scent of death' barked in that same apartment
Am I missing something here ?
Isn't it common sense to connect those two facts ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 05:09:46 AM
I posed it as a question as I really don't know, Cariad. I would have thought that technically speaking, abduction is the removal of a living person. Often for ransom, though not necessarily. When you say I'm splitting hairs, that's probably correct!
In the middle of writing this I have looked the word up in several dictionaries (and also the word 'kidnapping', which appears to mean essentially the same thing), and the main meaning is that a person is taken against their will.
I had a feeling that that was part of the meaning, and that's what was niggling me: a person who is dead is not being taken against their will.
Whether this technicality is of any interest to police as far as their investigations and communications go - our original context for this question - I don't know. What do you think DCI Redwood meant?
That's the crux of it isn't it? We're being left to interpret Whether DCI Redwood was using technical language, which I assume he is much more comfortable with than you and I, or debunking the abduction myth.
Yes, I imagine that Andy would probably use the term 'abduction' in its most literal sense, in the same way that I 'turn' a pizza in the oven to cook it evenly, yet my husband 'rotates' it.
However, after having 'abduction' shoved down our throats as the only possible explanation of what happened to Madeleine for nigh on 7 years, hearing SY say that that may not go along with all their thinking about the case seems like a very big deal! Well, to me at least. No one else seems very impressed...
The Mccanns have told us that Madeleine can not have woke and wandered could she couldn't have opened the shutters and curtains and managed all the obstacles to get out of the flat, although they did also say that they'd left the doors open for that very reason, so I guess we're left with a choice of which to believe.
WS posted a video yesterday showing Dr and Mrs Mccann saying that.
So how does someone have time to commit a murder, clean up (any evidence) then remove a body?
Why would someone remove a body? There was no sign of a struggle on the bed. There were no forensics. They wasn't anything to indicate that an intruder had entered the apartment. All in Kate's "very small window of opportunity"?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
The problem seems to be that Andy Redwood wasn't reading from a script. Although that would have been thought odd by some. But he certainly wasn't expecting his every word to be dissected for hidden meanings, and nor would he have said anything to implicate The McCanns, let alone sending hidden messages to McCann Sceptics. He might not be as articulate as some, but he certainly isn't stupid.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 23, 2014, 09:28:09 AM
The problem seems to be that Andy Redwood wasn't reading from a script. Although that would have been thought odd by some. But he certainly wasn't expecting his every word to be dissected for hidden meanings, and nor would he have said anything to implicate The McCanns, let alone sending hidden messages to McCann Sceptics. He might not be as articulate as some, but he certainly isn't stupid.
I'm not looking for hidden meaning and I'm certainly not looking for hidden messages, I'm not Sadie!
So which is it? Inarticulate and therefore less likely to use the absolute technical term for 'abduction', or articulate and precise?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on March 23, 2014, 10:05:06 AM
The problem seems to be that Andy Redwood wasn't reading from a script. Although that would have been thought odd by some. But he certainly wasn't expecting his every word to be dissected for hidden meanings, and nor would he have said anything to implicate The McCanns, let alone sending hidden messages to McCann Sceptics. He might not be as articulate as some, but he certainly isn't stupid.
IMO as AR was talking about a man who assaulted 12 white British children in their beds - two of them in PdL he didn't think it was necessary to spell it out that IF Madeleine had died in the apartment then it may well have been at the hands of that intruder.
We have only been given some details about these attacks. No doubt SY have interviewed the families at length and know far more about them than we do.
Pure speculation on my part - but it could be that if it was common practice by this person to hold his hand over the childrens mouths to keep them quiet - then that could have resulted in Madeleine's death.
Having already publically made it crystal clear that the McCanns have been ruled out - it probably didn't occur to Andy Redwood that his every word would still be pored over and put under a microscope by some folk in the hopes of finding a 'clue' to convince themselves that he is actually hinting that it was the McCanns wot dunnit and who would ignore the glaring connection he was making between this particular criminal and Madeleine.
Both the PJ and SY have confirmed that the McCanns are not suspects. The McCanns have met with the PJ team and SY are keeping them updated. Anyone who thinks this is all part of a big charade and the McCanns are secretly their 'prime suspects' have taken 'wishful thinking' right off the Richter scale IMO.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 23, 2014, 10:05:48 AM
Someone who wants chapter and verse arse backwards on a postage stamp.
It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!
Time is of the essence!
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 10:16:21 AM
It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!
Time is of the essence!
I know you are being sarcastic but perhaps we could expect the pj to allow SY to complete its investigation and we might all have some answers
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 10:17:34 AM
Some of us might not live that long 8(8-))
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 23, 2014, 10:18:50 AM
I know you are being sarcastic but perhaps we could expect the pj to allow SY to complete its investigation and we might all have some answers
I think some professional courtesy and respect could go a long way with both parties. Cooperation would seem like the best way of getting this case solved.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 10:45:21 AM
It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!
Time is of the essence!
Not for your benefit I don't. I am pretty certain that Andy Redwood is only interested in any other attacks, and they will know who they are, and you won't be one of those.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 11:13:13 AM
It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!
Time is of the essence!
@)(++(*
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 01:13:27 PM
Opening paragraph and sentence of the very same article:
(Reuters) - British detectives investigating the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann said they were looking for a man suspected of carrying out a series of sexual assaults on young girls staying in Portuguese holiday villas between 2004 and 2010.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
Three separate police investigations also found that Madeleine "may not have left 5a alive" which confirms Eddie's work.
STILL not good enough for you?
No it doesn't.
A line of enquiry is being pursued that Madeleine may, tragically, have been murdered in the apartment by an (unknown) intruder, who then made off with her body and concealed it.
That would make the crimes murder and unlawful concealment of a body (by a person unknown) rather than abduction.
Either way, dog alerts remain irrelevant.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 02:17:51 PM
A line of enquiry is being pursued that Madeleine may, tragically, have been murdered in the apartment by an (unknown) intruder, who then made off with her body and concealed it.
That would make the crimes murder and unlawful concealment of a body (by a person unknown) rather than abduction.
Either way, dog alerts remain irrelevant.
Hogan Howe mentioned murder, but Redwood merely mentioned death. Not all death is premeditated murder
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 02:25:09 PM
The only thing that would tie in death before leaving the apt would be Eddie. If no value was being placed on Eddie's behaviour then the line of enquiry would be along the lines of "abducted from the apt but after a considerable length of time missing, may sadly no longer be alive".
No logic other than Eddie points to death before leaving.
Try reading the article:
We need to eliminate this man [referenced above] from our enquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance," Andy Redwood, senior investigating officer at London's Metropolitan Police Service, told a news briefing.
It has sod-all to do with dog alerts; everything to do with the modus operandi of a sexual predator in the PdL area.
Dog alerts are irrelevant.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 02:26:14 PM
We need to eliminate this man [referenced above] from our enquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance," Andy Redwood, senior investigating officer at London's Metropolitan Police Service, told a news briefing.
It has sod-all to do with dog alerts; everything to do with the modus operandi of a sexual predator in the PdL area.
Dog alerts are irrelevant.
Yes & his MO was child murder & body snatching was it?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 02:29:28 PM
Try again
The behaviour of the dogs has been dismissed as irrelevant
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carew on March 23, 2014, 02:31:02 PM
The behaviour of the dogs has been dismissed as irrelevant
@)(++(* You wish. Though I can't see why you are so desperate to rubbish them given that Redwood clearly accepts the possibility that Madeleine may have dies in the apartment.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 02:37:05 PM
@)(++(* You wish. Though I can't see why you are so desperate to rubbish them given that Redwood clearly accepts the possibility that Madeleine may have dies in the apartment.
Pull out the reference to dogs in that Reuters article ...
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
There was no deliberate lack of care and concern for the children, and no obvious irresponsibility. I believe it says something similar in the Final Report.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 02:43:55 PM
(Promotor Veritatis)
Quote
Wrong.
The only thing that would tie in death before leaving the apt would be Eddie. If no value was being placed on Eddie's behaviour then the line of enquiry would be along the lines of "abducted from the apt but after a considerable length of time missing, may sadly no longer be alive".
No logic other than Eddie points to death before leaving.
Since when did dogs know about logic?
This information came to light during the course of the investigation:
In four cases between 2004 and 2006 a man sexually assaulted five white girls, aged between 7 and 10 years, in their beds, in three different Algarve resorts, police said. Two of the 12 offences were committed in Praia da Luz.
A line of enquiry is seeking to rule in or out that this sexual predator struck again in Apartment 5a on May 3 2007.
That has nothing to do with dog alerts.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carew on March 23, 2014, 02:48:17 PM
There was no deliberate lack of care and concern for the children, and no obvious irresponsibility. I believe it says something similar in the Final Report.
Yes...........It is difficult, though, to reconcile the emboldened part below with the conclusions drawn imo.
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger, a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them. Without any pretension or compensatory effect, we must also recognise that the parents already expiate a heavy penalty - the disappearance of Madeleine - due to their lack of caution in the surveillance and protection of their children.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 23, 2014, 02:51:21 PM
Whoever these people were (or worse, are), were they fully investigated at the time? Or even now? Some were serious sexual assaults, for heaven's sake.
And what exactly is Moita Flores on about now?
Comment on CMTV Maddie Case: Moita Flores says alleged rapist is "Propaganda" March 20, 00:49 Francisco Moita Flores is skeptical of the new data from the Maddie case. The commentator CMTV says the alleged rapist being sought "is just propaganda" and said Scotland Yard should not give so much importance to vague data.
Ler mais em: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=www.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://cmtv.sapo.pt/detalhe.aspx%3FchannelID%3D34F5E1B7-BABF-4C08-83FC-20AF9E097CDA%26contentID%3D61C08FDA-DC50-4DE5-A61D-CB75245EDEE3&usg=ALkJrhhE0roFoX6BRL1_yuzQMNfH9DWFoQ
Comentário na CMTV Caso Maddie: Moita Flores diz que alegado violador é "propaganda" 20 de março, 00:49 Francisco Moita Flores está cético quanto aos novos dados do caso Maddie. O comentador da CMTV diz que o alegado violador que está a ser procurado "não passa de propaganda" e disse que a Scotland Yard não deve dar tanta relevância a dados vagos.
Ler mais em: http://cmtv.sapo.pt/detalhe.aspx?channelID=34F5E1B7-BABF-4C08-83FC-20AF9E097CDA&contentID=61C08FDA-DC50-4DE5-A61D-CB75245EDEE3
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 23, 2014, 02:54:18 PM
Whoever these people were (or worse, are), were they fully investigated at the time? Or even now? Some were serious sexual assaults, for heaven's sake.
Then, no doubt they would have been investigated. Why should you think otherwise ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 03:03:52 PM
Letter to the attorney general:
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2014, 03:06:39 PM
No. You try reading the article..... "There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive. What is important for us to do is consider all the options," he said."
The only logic that would lead anyone to investigate death before leaving the apt is the behaviour if the dogs. Therefore, under those circumstances the dogs are not one tiny bit irrelevant. >@@(*&)
In what sense do you feel that taking quotes out of context contributes to meaningful, informed and considered debate?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
In what sense do you feel that ignoring real actual quotes from the leading investigating officer, contributes to meaningful, informed and considered debate?
We are discussing quotes taken out of context.
Information came to light about a sexual predator.
A line of enquiry is being pursued to eliminate the sexual predator from the Madeleine enquiry ...
That has nothing to with dogs.
The first enquiry was shelved, and the McCanns' arguido status lifted, with everything about dog alerts already known.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 23, 2014, 03:20:55 PM
In what sense do you feel that ignoring real actual quotes from the leading investigating officer, contributes to meaningful, informed and considered debate?
"Real actual quotes from the leading investigating officer..." which one? From which era?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carana on March 23, 2014, 03:27:59 PM
Information came to light about a sexual predator.
A line of enquiry is being pursued to eliminate the sexual predator from the Madeleine enquiry ...
That has nothing to with dogs.
The first enquiry was shelved, and the McCanns' arguido status lifted, with everything about dog alerts already known.
Yes, I'd agree with that. There is (or has been) a sexual predator on the loose, possibly more than one. At the end of the day, these assaults may not be related to Madeleine's disappearance, but this person still need to be found to give closure to the other families. Once identified, that person may or may not be linked to Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 03:33:43 PM
Yes, I'd agree with that. There is (or has been) a sexual predator on the loose, possibly more than one. At the end of the day, these assaults may not be related to Madeleine's disappearance, but this person still need to be found to give closure to the other families. Once identified, that person may or may not be linked to Madeleine's disappearance.
The job of the Portuguese police, I would say.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 03:34:09 PM
I hope they don't take him up any stairs when they catch him.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
No. You try reading the article..... "There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive. What is important for us to do is consider all the options," he said."
The only logic that would lead anyone to investigate death before leaving the apt is the behaviour of the dogs. Therefore, under those circumstances the dogs are not one tiny bit irrelevant. >@@(*&)
But death in the apartment was suspected BEFORE the dogs were brought in...so your whole argument is bogus
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 03:39:28 PM
"There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive. What is important for us to do is consider all the options," he said."
In your opinion Ferryman, what do you think would lead D.C.I. Andy Redwood (for the benefit of Carana) to "consider the option" that Madeleine "didn't leave the apartment alive".
Or is he a [moderated] who is not considering that option whether it be amongst others or not?
If the option is being considered as D.C.I. Redwood's own words categorically confirm then who would logically consider an abducted child to have been dead before leaving the apt?
The discovery of a sexual predator with a known modus operandi of sexually abusing young girls in their beds ...
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 03:41:20 PM
But death in the apartment was suspected BEFORE the dogs were brought in...so your whole argument is bogus
If the cadaver not had not alerted in apartment 5A, but had, instead, behaved in the same way as he did in all the other apartments he was deployed in, do you believe Scotland Yard would still have said Madeleine may have died there ?
On what basis ? ... on what grounds ?
What, other than the cadaver dog's alerts would lead Scotland Yard into thinking Madeleine may have died in that apartment ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 03:48:13 PM
who says so...I would say death in the apartment was suspected early on by the UK police
In that case, why do you think SY have only just mentioned it when they have had plenty of opportunity to do so earlier, including two Crimewatch programmes ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
In that case, why do you think SY have only just mentioned it when they have had plenty of opportunity to do so earlier, including two Crimewatch programmes ?
It was the uk police who decided to bring a cadaver dog to the apartment...it seems logical they suspected death in the apartment...wouldn't you agree
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 03:54:09 PM
If the cadaver not had not alerted in apartment 5A, but had, instead, behaved in the same way as he did in all the other apartments he was deployed in, do you believe Scotland Yard would still have said Madeleine may have died there ?
On what basis ? ... on what grounds ?
What, other than the cadaver dog's alerts would lead Scotland Yard into thinking Madeleine may have died in that apartment ?
Man's inhumanity to small children. Andy Redwood must know more about that than we do.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 03:54:37 PM
Man's inhumanity to small children. Andy Redwood must know more about that than we do.
I really don't think that when Andy Redwood said Madeleine may have died in the apartment that he was doing so in some vague allusion to the world being a wicked place where bad things happen
I really don't
I believe that the only reason Andy Redwood has to think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment is the fact that a cadaver dog's alerts was suggestive of a dead body having been there at some point
I have asked what other reason he may have for saying what he did ( that Madeleien may have died in the aparrtment ) and, so far, no-one has come up with anything sensible
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 04:33:19 PM
I really don't think that when Andy Redwood said Madeleine may have died in the apartment that he was doing so in some vague allusion to the world being a wicked place where bad things happen
I really don't
I believe that the only reason Andy Redwood has to think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment is the fact that a cadaver dog's alerts was suggestive of a dead body having been there at some point
I have asked what other reason he may have for saying what he did ( that Madeleien may have died in the aparrtment ) and, so far, no-one has come up with anything sensible
In your opinion. Which isn't to be relied on.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 04:49:16 PM
If the cadaver not had not alerted in apartment 5A, but had, instead, behaved in the same way as he did in all the other apartments he was deployed in, do you believe Scotland Yard would still have said Madeleine may have died there ?
On what basis ? ... on what grounds ?
What, other than the cadaver dog's alerts would lead Scotland Yard into thinking Madeleine may have died in that apartment ?
on the grounds of possibility..if maddie had died in the apt and been removed immediately then cadaver scent would not have been present...therefore death in the apt is possible without cadaver alert
you need to understand...the dogs are tools to find evidence...just like a drug dog...no one has been arrested for a drug dog alert where no drugs were found
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 04:56:38 PM
Surely what is important is that SY have come to the conclusion that Madeleine may well have died in the apartment.
How and why they have come to that conclusion is of secondary importance.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carew on March 23, 2014, 04:58:00 PM
With all respect Carew it has been reported by a number of guests staying in OC prior to the arrival of the Mcanns of burglaries and attempted burglaries. According to the record I have the late Mrs Fenn reported such an attempt only a week before. Add to that other such crimes or attempted happening along the Algarve at that time.
I appreciate that the OC would hardly like new arrivals to know about it but surely in the interests of safety some hint should have been dropped.
As to ‘intent’ that’s quite an emotive word. As it is there’s another that needs to be considered and that’s complacency something after what happened in Portugal 30 years ago a mistake I never made again.
30 years ago when the family stayed in Alvor just down the road from Praia da Luz at a time when my daughter was the same age as Madeleine I discovered that our hotel ran a morning playgroup between 10-30 am and 11-30amand.I thought how nice it would be for my daughter a single child to have companionship of her own age.
All went well for the first three days until the fourth when it all went horribly wrong, the playgroup shutting down early with no warning leaving the kids to fend for themselves. Imagine my feelings, therefore, when I turned to collect my daughter only to discover that there was nobody there. Put it this way the McCanns weren’t the first to have a daughter to go missing in Portugal.
My late husband and I were lucky. Thanks to the vigilance of the hotel housekeep who could speak English our daughter was restored to us within an hour but I have never forgotten what happened in-between. I don’t normally lose my cool but this was one such occasion when I totally lost it, screaming at everyone like a banshee on the loose. After that I made sure my daugher was always in eyeshot.
That is the point I’m trying to make. You think you’re safe until the unexpected happens.
Thankyou for the comments.
There are many points to make as regards "intent / abandonment / exposure", but I expect they will have been covered already ..........long before my time on here!
Anyway.........it is veering off topic and it can be easy to derail unintentionally.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carew on March 23, 2014, 05:17:44 PM
That is the point I’m trying to make. You think you’re safe until the unexpected happens.
Thankyou for the comments.
There are many points to make as regards "intent / abandonment / exposure", but I expect they will have been covered already ..........long before my time on here!
Anyway.........it is veering off topic and it can be easy to derail unintentionally.
Like having one one's own daughter disappear in Portugal, however brief. is OFF topic?
The intent to neglect/abandon is a subject veering off-topic for this particular thread and I do not want to unintentionally derail.
That is what I meant.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Carew on March 23, 2014, 05:26:10 PM
Correct, but what would lead him to consider the possibilty of death before leaving whilst failing to mention the possibility of death after leaving? After all this is not the MO of the sexual abuser they claim to seek. There is however a cadaver dog that alerted in the apt which could lead Redwood to consider the prospect.
Therefore if it's down to the dog that the alert is being considered then it rules out abduction.
WHICH IS WHY NONE OF YOU DARE "CONSIDER" THE OPTION!
Okay. Let's consider it. Now what?
Still no proof of what Eddie alerted to. Still no Forensics. Still no body. Still no new evidence, other than that pointing to possible perpetrators residing in Portugal long after The McCanns had left. Have you got anything else?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 05:43:39 PM
Still no proof of what Eddie alerted to. Still no Forensics. Still no body. Still no new evidence, other than that pointing to possible perpetrators residing in Portugal long after The McCanns had left. Have you got anything else?
Yet SY think it might have happened. Are they wrong in their thinking ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
Are you casting doubt on their deductive capability - Britain's finest ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 06:02:59 PM
Not until the McCann's timeline is revisited. If Redwood is considering the possibility then he must in turn be considering the McCanns have lied about the checks.
I agree
Scotland Yard think there is a possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment
They have cadaver dog intelligence that suggests the possibility
Those two facts are, inextricably connected
So, if Scotland Yard are considering the intelligence provided by the dogs ( which they must ) they will have concluded that if the dog had detected the scent of the missing child's dead body ( and there is nothing to say he did not ) then the child would have to have been dead in the apartment for at least an hour and a half
As you say, that brings the McCanns' checking claims into question
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 06:39:39 PM
What I have noticed is that some internet posters are prepared to believe fully and accept certain premises without firm evidence, such as the whole abduction scenario, but not accept and refute totally others like the dogs findings.
I wonder why that is?
Cos that what Kate & Gerry believe and as a true believer, you have to repeat that daily.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 06:57:43 PM
What I have noticed is that some internet posters are prepared to believe fully and accept certain premises without firm evidence, such as the whole abduction scenario, but not accept and refute totally others like the dogs findings.
I wonder why that is?
I accept the dogs findings as described by grime...the expert...I don't accept that "the dogs told us maddie died in the apartment".....which has been posted here
what YOU don't understand is that some posters ...myself....have seen all the available evidence and come to the same conclusion as SY...how wacky does that make me
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 06:59:27 PM
I accept the dogs findings as described by grime...the expert...I don't accept that "the dogs told us maddie died in the apartment".....which has been posted here
what YOU don't understand is that some posters ...myself....have seen all the available evidence and come to the same conclusion as SY...how wacky does that make me
How long did it take you to realise bundleman was bs?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 23, 2014, 07:00:58 PM
I accept the dogs findings as described by grime...the expert...I don't accept that "the dogs told us maddie died in the apartment".....which has been posted here
what YOU don't understand is that some posters ...myself....have seen all the available evidence and come to the same conclusion as SY...how wacky does that make me
I don't think SY have reached a conclusion, davel. The investigation is on going...
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 07:03:37 PM
I accept the dogs findings as described by grime...the expert...I don't accept that "the dogs told us maddie died in the apartment".....which has been posted here
what YOU don't understand is that some posters ...myself....have seen all the available evidence and come to the same conclusion as SY...how wacky does that make me
Really wacky, given that SY have not come to any conclusion, they have not charged anyone nor brought a case to court to put before a Judge and jury.
Clearly you are not privy to al SY's thinking, are you?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 07:06:08 PM
they have reached certain conclusions...the parents are not suspects...maddie may be alive...or sadly dead...they are investigating an abduction
The only time you can claim agreement with their conclusion is when a case is brought to court and that case is based on the parents not being charged and a third party abductor.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
Since when have i either mentioned Amaral or claimed to be him?
What has Amaral got to do with our discussion?
because no one has ever questioned the fact that amaral reached conclusions...you are just devasated...because SY do not blame the parents and are disregarding the dogs alerts
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 07:16:04 PM
The McCanns have always said that there is absolutey nothing to suggest Madeleine is dead
If that is true, why have Scotland Yard have said Madeleine may have died in the apartment ?
They ( Scotland Yard ) must think there IS something that suggests Madeleine might be dead, mustn't they ? ... I mean they wouldn't say she might have died in the apartment if there was nothing at all to suggest she might have, would they ?
I think what leads them to believe Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A is that a cadaver dog alerted there
I think Scotland Yard are giving the dog inteligence serious consideration
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 07:17:06 PM
because no one has ever questioned the fact that amaral reached conclusions...you are just devatstaed...because SY do not blame the parents and are disregarding the dogs alerts
Amaral's conclusions were documented and presented to the world in a tangible way, first with the Arguido status imposed against the McCann's then the release of the case files.
SY have not released any of their case files nor made anyone a formal suspect.
See the difference?
ETA
Yet SY have said Madeleine could have died before she left the apartment, which does not disregard the dogs alerts, does it?
If you think about it the only way SY could disregard the alerts was to say for definite that the child DID NOT die in the apartment. Yet they have said precisely the opposite.
Funny that.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 23, 2014, 07:19:10 PM
The McCanns have always said that there is absolutey nothing to suggest Madeleine is dead
If that is true, why have Scotland Yard have said Madeleine may have died in the apartment ?
They ( Scotland Yard ) must think there IS something that suggests Madeleine might be dead, mustn't they ? ... I mean they wouldn't say she might have died in the apartment if there was nothing at all to suggest she might have, would they ?
I think what leads them to believe Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A is that a cadaver dog alerted there
I think Scotland Yard are giving the dog inteligence serious consideration
if SY say Maddie may be alive then SY are discounting the dog's alerts...Sy say maddie may still be alive...which part of that don't you undersatnd
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 07:20:09 PM
The McCanns have always said that there is absolutey nothing to suggest Madeleine is dead
If that is true, why have Scotland Yard have said Madeleine may have died in the apartment ?
They ( Scotland Yard ) must think there IS something that suggests Madeleine might be dead, mustn't they ? ... I mean they wouldn't say she might have died in the apartment if there was nothing at all to suggest she might have, would they ?
I think what leads them to believe Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A is that a cadaver dog alerted there
I think Scotland Yard are giving the dog inteligence serious consideration
Why wouldn't they, what other serious lead do they have? Gypsies, tramps and theives I suppose.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 07:22:23 PM
Amaral's conclusions were documented and presented to the world in a tangible way, first with the Arguido status imposed against the McCann's then the release of the case files.
SY have not released any of their case files nor made anyone a formal suspect.
See the difference?
ETA
Yet SY have said Madeleine could have died before she left the apartment, which does not disregard the dogs alerts, does it?
If you think about it the only way SY could disregard the alerts was to say for definite that the child DID NOT die in the apartment. Yet they have said precisely the opposite.
Funny that.
First I see the difference... with amaral..he didn't understand either the dogs alerts or the dna evidence..SY do.
The opposite of DID NOT is DID...SY have said MAY... Sy have not said precisely the opposite.....you are 100% wrong again
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 07:27:22 PM
dave...on the grounds of possibility..if maddie had died in the apt and been removed immediately then cadaver scent would not have been present...therefore death in the apt is possible without cadaver alert what do you think Andy and co UNCOVERED [ his words to Guardian reporter] which made the team q whether M was alive when she left 5a ?
I don't think he has discovered anything...I think its been a possibility from day one
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 07:32:21 PM
if SY say Maddie may be alive then SY are discounting the dog's alerts...Sy say maddie may still be alive...which part of that don't you undersatnd
Scotland Yard allow for the possibility that the cadaver was wrong ... "Madeleine may alive"
Scotland Yard allow for the possibility that the cadaver dog was right ... "Madeleine may have died in the apartment"
Scotland Yard appear to have taken the position that the cadaver dog alerts have yet to be proven right or wrong and both possibilites must be considered
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 07:33:58 PM
First I see the difference... with amaral..he didn't understand either the dogs alerts or the dna evidence..SY do.
The opposite of DID NOT is DID...SY have said MAY... Sy have not said precisely the opposite.....you are 100% wrong again
Firstly, given you are not privy to the day in day out workings of the Yard you have no idea of their understanding of, nor the weight and content of their evidence.
Secondly YOU were the one who stated as fact that SY had "discounted" the dogs alerts. You were the one making a bold claim on what SY believed, not me.
So i don't have to prove anything as it wasn't me making a fanciful claim.
I repeat in order for your conclusion to be accurate that SY had "discounted" the dog alerts the only way that could be possible is for them to either categorically dismiss the findings publicly, which they haven't done (as much as you would like them to have done), or for them to categorically state it was impossible Madeleine had died whilst in the apartment.
They have not done either so your claim that they have definitely reached a conclusion about the alerts is once again wrong.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 07:39:37 PM
Scotland Yard allow for the possibility that the cadaver was wrong ... "Madeleine may alive"
Scotland Yard allow for the possibility that the cadaver dog was right ... "Madeleine may have died in the apartment"
Scotland Yard appear to have taken the position that the cadaver dog alerts have yet to be proven right or wrong and both possibilites must be considered
And that's working on the assumption you take everything said by SY at face value.
I can understand why they said she "may be alive" even if they secretly think she may be dead, but i can see no logic for them saying she may have died in the apartment, if they thought she was actually alive.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 07:43:12 PM
And that's working on the assumption you take everything said by SY at face value.
I can understand why they said she "may be alive" even if they secretly think she may be dead, but i can see no logic for them saying she may have died in the apartment, if they thought she was actually alive.
Precisely, and no age progressed pictures on CW speaks volumes really.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 07:44:42 PM
And that's working on the assumption you take everything said by SY at face value.
I can understand why they said she "may be alive" even if they secretly think she may be dead, but i can see no logic for them saying she may have died in the apartment, if they thought she was actually alive.
That's a very logical observation
Why would Scotland Yard say Madeleine might have died in the apartment if they think she left there alive ( abducted ) ?
To what purpose ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 07:44:55 PM
Firstly, given you are not privy to the day in day out workings of the Yard you have no idea of their understanding of, nor the weight and content of their evidence.
Secondly YOU were the one who stated as fact that SY had "discounted" the dogs alerts. You were the one making a bold claim on what SY believed, not me.
So i don't have to prove anything as it wasn't me making a fanciful claim.
I repeat in order for your conclusion to be accurate that SY had "discounted" the dog alerts the only way that could be possible is for them to either categorically dismiss the findings publicly, which they haven't done (as much as you would like them to have done), or for them to categorically state it was impossible Madeleine had died whilst in the apartment.
They have not done either so your claim that they have definitely reached a conclusion about the alerts is once again wrong.
let me make this really simple for you... SY have said Maddie may still be alive...if maddie is alive.. which SY confirm is possible......the dogs are wrong
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 07:47:42 PM
No, absolutely critical. To believe that a statement made in the past will not ever change as an investigation matures and develops, and as new evidence comes in, is frankly ludicrous and put forward only to cling to the "McCann's not suspect line".
For example bundleman was a prime suspect at the beginning of the review. He has subsequently been discounted.
The investigation has therefore progressed and as a result earlier assumptions have changed.
If it can happen with Bundleman why could it not happen to the <cCann's and their group?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 23, 2014, 07:49:02 PM
let me make this really simple for you... SY have said Maddie may still be alive...if maddie is alive.. which SY confirm is possible......the dogs are wrong
That's working on the assumption that the dogs alerts prove she died.
Something which your lot have been incredibly keen to point out isn't necessarily so.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 07:50:54 PM
And that's working on the assumption you take everything said by SY at face value.
I can understand why they said she "may be alive" even if they secretly think she may be dead, but i can see no logic for them saying she may have died in the apartment, if they thought she was actually alive.
third time wrong..they don't think she is actually alive...they think she MAY be alive...you really don't seem to understand anything
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 07:53:30 PM
No, absolutely critical. To believe that a statement made in the past will not ever change as an investigation matures and develops, and as new evidence comes in, is frankly ludicrous and put forward only to cling to the "McCann's not suspect line".
For example bundleman was a prime suspect at the beginning of the review. He has subsequently been discounted.
The investigation has therefore progressed and as a result earlier assumptions have changed.
If it can happen with Bundleman why could it not happen to the <cCann's and their group?
absolutely right..well done..just as having reached a conclusion on the available evidence....if new evidence arises then a new conclusion will be arrived at
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 08:00:12 PM
I can see why you want to avoid answering the question..because if maddie is alive...as SY and amarals lawyer accept is a possibility..then the dogs are wrong..
that is an undeniable fact
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 08:05:10 PM
Let's keep it simple....if she died before leaving the apt....to which SY are considering the possibility, which can only have been brought about by the dog alerts.....what does that say about the McCanns checks that night?
nothing
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 08:05:56 PM
I can see why you want to avoid answering the question..because if maddie is alive...as SY and amarals lawyer accept is a possibility..then the dogs are wrong..
that is an undeniable fact
I'm not really that faffed about the dogs - I'm far more interested in SY's current position 8)--))
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 08:06:22 PM
lets keep it simple..if she is alive...what does that say about the dogs alerts
Unless she is found alive it says nothing at all about the dog's alerts
That appears to be the postion that Scotland Yard have taken
Unless Madeleine found alive, or proven to have left the apartment alive, then they must consider the possibility that the dog was correct in his alerts and that Madeleine may have died in the apartment
I think that is a reasonable position for the Yard to take
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 23, 2014, 08:07:16 PM
I can see why you want to avoid answering the question..because if maddie is alive...as SY and amarals lawyer accept is a possibility..then the dogs are wrong..
that is an undeniable fact
..............and of course if she died in the apartment, and it was nothing to do with an 'intruder' what then davel ?
What would be the conclusion then ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 08:07:27 PM
Unless she is found alive it says nothing at all about the dog's alerts
That appears to be the postion that Scotland Yard have taken
Unless Madeleine found alive, or proven to have left the apartment alive, then they must consider the possibility that the dog was correct in his alerts and that Madeleine may have died in the apartment
I think that is a reasonable position for the Yard to take
So maddie MAY have died in the apartment yes.....but nothing is certain
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 08:12:00 PM
While I'm pleased for you,I'm far more interested in where all this might lead to. I would like the culprit(s) brought to justice, irrespective of whoever it might be.
So would I , that's why its important that SY are allowed to complete their investigation
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 08:13:18 PM
While I'm pleased for you,I'm far more interested in where all this might lead to. I would like the culprit(s) brought to justice, irrespective of whoever it might be.
Yes, I agree with that totally. Although I'm less concerned about the risk the perpetrator may have to other children, since there has been no crime with the same MO in 7 years, I still feel that justice should be served.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 23, 2014, 08:13:47 PM
where am I wrong...please...for the delight of everybody...point out where I am wrong
Oh for heaven's sake, how many times!
You said SY had discounted the dogs alerts based on the fact that earlier in the investigation they said she "may" be alive.
The only way for definite the dog's findings could be to use your terms, discounted, is for SY to outright rubbish the findings or to state categorically she is alive.
I repeat they have not said either of those things.
To say she may be alive earlier in the investigation and then subsequently last week say she may have died in the apartment means they either believe the dogs evidence or find them to be inconclusive.
That does not mean, as you erroneously stated that SY had discounted them.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 23, 2014, 08:58:09 PM
You said SY had discounted the dogs alerts based on the fact that earlier in the investigation they said she "may" be alive.
The only way for definite the dog's findings could be to use your terms, discounted, is for SY to outright rubbish the findings or to state categorically she is alive.
I repeat they have not said either of those things.
To say she may be alive earlier in the investigation and then subsequently last week say she may have died in the apartment means they either believe the dogs evidence or find them to be inconclusive.
That does not mean, as you erroneously stated that SY had discounted them.
I don't agree and neither would anyone in their right mind...if maddie is alive the dogs are wrong...SY said maddie may be alive...therefore the dogs would be wrong ...fact
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 23, 2014, 09:04:08 PM
third time wrong..they don't think she is actually alive...they think she MAY be alive...you really don't seem to understand anything
Deary me reading and comprehension have never been your strong point, have they?
The paragraph you highlighted related to what SY may be thinking in their investigation and not what they said in their press conferences.
Hence why what i said that you quoted me on was: And that's working on the assumption you take everything said by SY at face value.
I can understand why they said she "may be alive" even if they secretly think she may be dead, but i can see no logic for them saying she may have died in the apartment, if they thought she was actually alive.
I stated what they said in relation to "may" i was talking about what they might be thinking.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 09:04:56 PM
I don't agree and neither would anyone in their right mind...if maddie is alive the dogs are wrong...SY said maddie may be alive...therefore the dogs would be wrong ...fact
The dogs would only be wrong if she were proved to be alive
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 23, 2014, 09:06:46 PM
I don't agree and neither would anyone in their right mind...if maddie is alive the dogs are wrong...SY said maddie may be alive...therefore the dogs would be wrong ...fact
That's like saying Mars is made of cheese until someone proves otherwise.
The indications are that it is NOT made of cheese. All testing available reveals it is made of various components, none of which are cheese. The scientists, those in the know, say it isn't cheese.
But you still keep banging on (despite the EVIDENCE) that it's cheese because no one has proven it's not.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 23, 2014, 09:13:40 PM
SY apparently believe the dogs.
So that's Leics police, the PJ, now SY, all suspecting M died in 5a, but posters here still claim they know better.
If it isn't the dogs that are indicating this scenario, what is??????
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 09:14:16 PM
I understand what you mean, and I agree. There's that bit in the middle which is either or. But you are wasting your time trying to explain to people who simply don't want to know.
The fact that you agree given you're of the same persuasion as Dave is hardly a revelation moment of Redwood proportions. You have however (unlike Dave) admitted a "bit in the middle". Progress at last.
Now you people can try and paint the people involved in this discussion in the childish "goodies and baddies" fashion that so characterises the thought processes of the more rabid McCann supporter but the fact remains Dave made a statement that SY had discounted the dogs findings which to anyone with a modicum of reasonableness could see is patently not true.
The fact that SY stated only last week that Madeleine may have died in 5a means they either believe the dogs findings or are keeping their options open and suggesting they are inconclusive.
Unless SY come and specifically trash Grime and his dogs or unequivocally state Maddie left the apartment alive then it is a fallacy to state with certainty that the Yard have discounted their findings.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 10:38:03 PM
Of course Scotland Yard have discounted the dogs. It didn't take them two years to make up their minds about that.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 23, 2014, 10:46:34 PM
No need, because THEY understand what the dogs show and what they dont show, unlike quite a few on here.
Major fail again Sadie then by not being able to provide a cite for your claim. Oh dear :) You got one thing right though SY DO indeed understand the dogs 8(>((
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Brietta on March 24, 2014, 01:53:36 AM
Well, for whatever reason you care to imagine, Scotland Yard have placed a dead Madeleine in the apartment where a cadaver dog alerted
For the first time that possibility has been acknowledged by them
That is the bald fact
But the point is the stage of the investigation when it has been stated, not as a fact but as a possibility.
We have a fair indication of why NSY said they were not interested in the parents, which IMO is there was no evidence to support it. They are now looking at a sexual predator and perhaps believe something in his MO is indicative of this new possibility.
There is absolutely no doubt that a VRD alerted in 5a, but there is not a vestige of proof exactly what it was he was alerting to.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 24, 2014, 02:07:41 AM
But the point is the stage of the investigation when it has been stated, not as a fact but as a possibility.
We have a fair indication of why NSY said they were not interested in the parents, which IMO is there was no evidence to support it. They are now looking at a sexual predator and perhaps believe something in his MO is indicative of this new possibility.
There is absolutely no doubt that a VRD alerted in 5a, but there is not a vestige of proof exactly what it was he was alerting to.
All of that is speculation
The only thing we know ... as a fact ... is that Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A
How they think she died, and in what manner, they have not said
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Albertini on March 24, 2014, 09:30:10 AM
absolutely right..well done..just as having reached a conclusion on the available evidence....if new evidence arises then a new conclusion will be arrived at
Well done, we're getting somewhere.
So by the same token do you accept that AR's earlier pronunciation that the McCann's and the group are not suspects or persons of interest can change at any point in the future on the uncovering of new evidence?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 24, 2014, 09:46:24 AM
Scotland Yard are now on the case, so what happened or didn't happen several years ago is no longer of operational relevance.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 24, 2014, 09:47:55 AM
True. I don't know why they don't televise these things. It would be much easier than having to make corrections and retractions.
I don't know if you have seen this amend......
This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 24, 2014, 08:16:42 PM
This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
Seen it? I've posted it about four times on this very thread! ?{)(**
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2014, 09:13:19 PM
IMO the killed by intruder hypothesis is incorrect but if SY do choose to examine it would they consider it could explain all of Eddies signals?
It wouldn't explain any of the cadaver dog signals
... not unless Scotland Yard presume an intruder killed Madeleine and then waited for at least an hour and a half before removing her dead body ( that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs )
Then, of course, there is the claimed checking regime by the McCanns ... if, for some inexplicable reason, an intruder had waited an hour and a half before removing the body it would still leave Gerry's 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm ... you see, Madeleine would have to have been already dead at that point
So no Pegasus, Scotland can not reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with the theory that an intruder killed Madeleine
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 27, 2014, 04:23:10 PM
It wouldn't explain any of the cadaver dog signals
... not unless Scotland Yard presume an intruder killed Madeleine and then waited for at least an hour and a half before removing her dead body ( that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs )
Then, of course, there is the claimed checking regime by the McCanns ... if, for some inexplicable reason, an intruder had waited an hour and a half before removing the body it would still leave Gerry's 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm ... you see, Madeleine would have to have been already dead at that point
So no Pegasus, Scotland can not reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with the theory that an intruder killed Madeleine
A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said the smell on Mrs McCann could be explained by being in contact with corpses while working as a GP.
By ALEX PEAKE and VERONICA LORRAINE Published: Today, 05 September 2008
THESE were the scenes as two police sniffer dogs investigated the disappearance of little Madeleine McCann — and left her shell-shocked parents wrongly in the frame.
The hounds' findings persuaded bungling Portuguese cops to name doctors Kate and Gerry as official suspects in the mystery.
Now video footage obtained by The Sun — and revealed for the first time today — lays bare the flimsy evidence used to build the case against them.
The 2½-hour film, shot on a police camcorder, chronicles the work of two specially-trained British sniffer dogs. It details the moments when the springer spaniels apparently detected:
* The scent of a dead body in the McCanns' rented Renault Scenic, hired 25 days after Maddie vanished shortly before her fourth birthday in May 2007
* An aroma of blood in a bedroom cupboard in the family's Praia da Luz holiday apartment, and
* A smell of death on Kate's clothes.
Dog handler and ex-PC Martin Grimes is seen working with the dogs, named Keela and Eddie, while Portuguese detectives look on.
He remarks on camera that Keela will detect "very old" blood. Yet local cops quickly leapt on the findings.
Shortly after the dogs were drafted in, police made Kate and Gerry, both 40, "arguidos" — official suspects.
Cleared
Although the couple, from Rothley, Leics, were eventually cleared, they went through ten months of added hell as they led the search for Maddie, who has still not been found.
Last night ex-Flying Squad commander John O'Connor said: "I find it absolutely appalling the detectives can treat the McCanns as official suspects on the back of such flimsy evidence."
The Sun's never-before-seen footage gives the true picture of how the investigation was conducted.
It shows the dogs in the McCanns' Algarve holiday home — apartment 5A of the Ocean Club in Praia de Luz.
Eddie is first to be taken into the two-bed apartment and spends nearly 30 minutes sniffing around.
He barks twice — once in a bedroom and once at a spot behind a sofa underneath a living room window.
Martin says: "As soon as I came in the dog is very excited. From his body language it would appear he has picked up a scent that he recognises.
"There is enough scent there for him to give me a bark indication."
After Eddie leaves the apartment, Martin takes in Keela. She can be seen freezing — a sign she has found something — underneath the window where Eddie had earlier barked.
Martin says on camera: "The crime scene dog has given me a positive indication. That indicates to me there is some human blood there. She will detect blood that is very old and find anybody’s blood."
While Portuguese cops carried out DNA tests on "fluids" found in the flat, it has never been revealed if any blood was found.
Detectives also asked Martin to use his dogs on the McCanns' hire car.
Eddie is seen barking at the driver's door before standing still in the boot, then scrabbling in one corner.
Martin says: "We had a reaction from the dog. The scent is coming out of the sealed door."
The dogs also sniffed items of clothing — and the film shows Eddie again picking up a scent on some of Kate's.
The family GP has insisted she came into contact with at least SIX dead bodies before going on holiday with her husband and three children.
Martin and the spaniels are then taken round the apartment hired by the McCanns after Maddie vanished. No evidence is uncovered there.
Portuguese police used the findings as a basis for their theory that Maddie had died in the family’s apartment on the night she went missing.
The scent in the car convinced them the couple had hidden her body and later disposed of it, despite the world's media watching their every movement.
Police files released last month showed that all DNA evidence against the McCanns had proved inconclusive.
Mr O'Connor, with more than 30 years' police experience, last night blasted the "ridiculous" Portuguese probe.
He said: "This clearly shows they were clutching at straws. It seems to me they have used the dogs to reinforce their own prejudices.
"As far as I am concerned they suspected Kate and Gerry or their party of being involved from day one.
"They made up their mind so, when the dogs detected the scent, as far as they were concerned that was it.
"But the dogs found nothing that could be used as evidence in a court of law. They are a tool to finding conclusive evidence, nothing more."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 27, 2014, 04:34:21 PM
Why would any dog attending a crime scene be picking stuff up in its mouth?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 27, 2014, 04:37:11 PM
It wouldn't explain any of the cadaver dog signals
... not unless Scotland Yard presume an intruder killed Madeleine and then waited for at least an hour and a half before removing her dead body ( that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs )
Then, of course, there is the claimed checking regime by the McCanns ... if, for some inexplicable reason, an intruder had waited an hour and a half before removing the body it would still leave Gerry's 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm ... you see, Madeleine would have to have been already dead at that point
So no Pegasus, Scotland can not reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with the theory that an intruder killed Madeleine
"an hour and a half ... that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs" I assume that SY (when considering Eddie's alerts in the context of a killed by intruder hypothesis) would be aware of the much shorter required period stated by Mr Grime. Could not this hypothesis explain directly the lounge, garden, bedroom, clothing, and cat signals?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 27, 2014, 04:40:14 PM
Everything Eddie picked up in his mouth was taken to the gym in the same cardboard box.
If anything in that box was contaminated, any scent would have been cross-transferred to all items in the box.
So why did Eddie pick up only a couple of them?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2014, 04:40:31 PM
"an hour and a half ... that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs" I assume that SY (when considering Eddie's alerts in the context of a killed by intruder hypothesis) would be aware of the much shorter required period stated by Mr Grime. Could not this hypothesis explain directly the lounge, garden, bedroom, clothing, and cat signals?
Cats? - I thought we were discussing dogs, but on reflection, I assume you mean cuddlecat .
What is this short time mentioned by Grime?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on March 27, 2014, 04:42:28 PM
It wouldn't explain any of the cadaver dog signals
... not unless Scotland Yard presume an intruder killed Madeleine and then waited for at least an hour and a half before removing her dead body ( that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs )
Then, of course, there is the claimed checking regime by the McCanns ... if, for some inexplicable reason, an intruder had waited an hour and a half before removing the body it would still leave Gerry's 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm ... you see, Madeleine would have to have been already dead at that point
So no Pegasus, Scotland can not reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with the theory that an intruder killed Madeleine
Well, an intruder hanging around for an hour and a half would explain that magically moving door, I suppose. I mean, something has too, right?
Otherwise we're left with "Door ajar" "door much wider open" door returned to ajar position(after adoring father moment)" "door much wider" "door Wide open, whooshing curtains, shutters up".
Unless an abductor was popping in and out, what could account for that?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 27, 2014, 04:49:20 PM
Everything Eddie picked up in his mouth taken to the gym in the same cardboard box.
If anything in that box was contaminated, any scent would have been cross-transferred to all items in the box.
So why did Eddie pick up only a couple of them?
A good question. IMO the clothing items in the "living area" box were placed in the box folded and one above the other. Contact transfer from one item would be to the item immediately above and the item immediately below?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
"an hour and a half ... that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs" I assume that SY (when considering Eddie's alerts in the context of a killed by intruder hypothesis) would be aware of the much shorter required period stated by Mr Grime . Could not this hypothesis explain directly the lounge, garden, bedroom, clothing, and cat signals?
Bit in bold
What 'much shorter required period' ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 04:54:37 PM
It wouldn't explain any of the cadaver dog signals
... not unless Scotland Yard presume an intruder killed Madeleine and then waited for at least an hour and a half before removing her dead body ( that's the minimum time it would have taken for cadaver odour to have been detectable to the dogs )
Then, of course, there is the claimed checking regime by the McCanns ... if, for some inexplicable reason, an intruder had waited an hour and a half before removing the body it would still leave Gerry's 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm ... you see, Madeleine would have to have been already dead at that point
So no Pegasus, Scotland can not reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with the theory that an intruder killed Madeleine
the glaring mistake in your logic is that the alerts have not been confirmed as cadaver by Grime
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 05:01:10 PM
the glaring mistake in your logic is that the alerts have not been confirmed as cadaver by Grime
I was answering Pegasus' question as to whether the cadaver dog alerts could be 'incorporated' into the theory that an intruder killed Madeleine in the apartment, and then removed her body
They could not
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 05:37:18 PM
Because unless an intruder left a dead body there for an hour and a half before removing it ... und unless Gerry McCann was lying about his 9.10pm 'proud father' moment ... and unless Madeleine had been dead since 8.30pm at the latest ( when the McCanns were leaving the apartment ) then there would not have been enough time for 'the scent of death' to be detectable to the dog
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 27, 2014, 05:48:48 PM
"an hour and a half" is rather different to what Mr Grime says.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2014, 05:50:06 PM
"an hour and a half" is rather different to what Mr Grime says
Which is what?
I apologise, and withdraw that post, finally realising that Serendipity knows what he/she is talking about. I now accept that the minimum of about one and a half hours as indicated by experiment is likely to be correct.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 10:50:43 PM
I apologise, and withdraw that post, finally realising that Serendipity knows what he/she is talking about. I now accept that the minimum of about one and a half hours as indicated by experiment is likely to be correct.
Thankyou for that pegasus
So we are agreed, then, that Scotland Yard cannot, realistically, 'incorporate' the cadaver dog alerts into a theory that involves an intruder killing Madeleine in the apartment ?
Any such theory would, necessarily, have to 'presume' that the dog was wrong ... and there is simply no reason, whilst Madeleine remains missing, to presume the dog was wrong, is there ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 27, 2014, 11:49:06 PM
So we are agreed, then, that Scotland Yard cannot, realistically, 'incorporate' the cadaver dog alerts into a theory that involves an intruder killing Madeleine in the apartment ?
Any such theory would, necessarily, have to 'presume' that the dog was wrong ... and there is simply no reason, whilst Madeleine remains missing, to presume the dog was wrong, is there ?
The hypothesis is unlikely to be the correct one IMO, but if detectives look at that hypothesis then IMO they would consider dog intelligence in that context, even if there are timing issues, they would need to consider it to see them.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 11:55:50 PM
The hypothesis is unlikely to be the correct one IMO, but if detectives look at that hypothesis then IMO they would consider dog intelligence in that context, even if there are timing issues, they would need to consider it to see them.
They surely did consider the timings
... and then, knowing that a dead body would have to have been in the apartment at 8.30pm at the latest, in accordance with the dog intelligence ... they announced that they think Madeleine might have died in the apartment
The McCanns have, always, vehemently denied there was ANY evidence that suggested Madeleine had come to any harm
Well, Scotland Yard don't agree with them, clearly
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 28, 2014, 12:49:02 AM
... and then, knowing that a dead body would have to have been in the apartment at 8.30pm at the latest, in accordance with the dog intelligence ... they announced that they think Madeleine might have died in the apartment
The McCanns have, always, vehemently denied there was ANY evidence that suggested Madeleine had come to any harm
Well, Scotland Yard don't agree with them, clearly
I see no reason to doubt last seen alive time.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 28, 2014, 01:04:53 AM
The 9.10pm 'last seen alive' time you mean ? ... when Gerry had his 'proud father moment
Well, I suppose that must mean you don't acknowledge the cadaver dog's alert at all then
Your perogative, of course ... but you really ought to support that position if you want to be taken seriously
Thats last seen alive yes. I need to read up on that study with the gauze pads.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 28, 2014, 01:56:32 AM
And which one do you believe? Kate's under the covers or Gerry's on top of the covers. Also no alerts in that bedroom or her bed >@@(*&) Gerry's trusty watch is in action again.
"When asked at what time he went to check on the children the night Madeleine disappeared, he recalls that this was around 21:04 according to his watch. He remembers that once inside the apartment he was surprised that the door to the children's room was slightly more open than how he had left it when he and Kate left for dinner. However, it could have been Madeleine who had opened the door after waking and getting up, eventually to go to her parents’ room. On this occasion, the three children were lying in their beds asleep, he is sure of this. Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, completely uncovered, i.e. lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and blanket, both pink, next to her head; he does not know if they were in the position that can be seen in the photograph attached to the files."
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 28, 2014, 02:04:17 AM
I haven't looked at the covers issue yet. But IMO nothing odd about lack of alert.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 28, 2014, 02:16:44 AM
I haven't looked at the covers issue yet. But IMO nothing odd about lack of alert.
What do you mean "nothing odd about lack of alert ?"
I have difficulty making sense of your posts pegasus ... forgive me for that, perhaps I'm just not on your wave-length, but could you be more precise ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 28, 2014, 02:36:14 AM
What do you mean "nothing odd about lack of alert ?"
I have difficulty making sense of your posts pegasus ... forgive me for that, perhaps I'm just not on your wave-length, but could you be more precise ?
Sorry I was answering pathfinders post but forgot to hit quote. IMO there is nothing odd about there being no dog signal in the north bedroom.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 28, 2014, 02:41:36 AM
Sorry I was answering pathfinders post but forgot to hit quote. IMO there is nothing odd about there being no dog signal in the north bedroom.
The 'north' bedroom ? ... what is that ?
There were only two bedrooms in that apartment ... one that Kate and Gerry McCann slept in ... and one that their children slept in
Let's keep it simple eh ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pegasus on March 28, 2014, 02:58:31 AM
North bedroom is the one farthest away from the tapas restaurant. It's the choice of each renting family who to put in each bedroom, both have two single beds, cots are moveable.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 28, 2014, 03:20:02 AM
North bedroom is the one farthest away from the tapas restaurant. It's the choice of each renting family who to put in each bedroom, both have two single beds, cots are moveable.
..
WHAT ! the room where the kids slept you mean ?
Why not just say that then ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on March 28, 2014, 06:34:37 AM
So we are agreed, then, that Scotland Yard cannot, realistically, 'incorporate' the cadaver dog alerts into a theory that involves an intruder killing Madeleine in the apartment ?
Any such theory would, necessarily, have to 'presume' that the dog was wrong ... and there is simply no reason, whilst Madeleine remains missing, to presume the dog was wrong, is there ?
Only if you presume that the scent Eddie alerted to was deposited in 5a on 3rd May. However, there is no way of knowing when it got there. Cross contamination could have occurred at any time during the months after Madeleine disappeared (or similarly - at some time before) - and have no connection whatsoever to the events of 3rd May as I am sure M. Grime would confirm.
The dogs cannot know or indicate the date on which residue was deposited.
IMO therefore it isn't possible to claim as a fact that SY cannot theorise that an intruder may have killed Madeleine in the apartment without having to presume the dogs were wrong. They could both be right.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2014, 08:14:46 AM
Mark Harrison's summary of all searches: The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
Why does Harrison acknowledge UK involvement only in those searches he recommended, the places Madeleine, either was known to have been or, conceivably, might have been: the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place?
Why did Harrison disown UK involvement in those places Madeleine never went near: the rented villa and the gym.
While Harrison recommended an inspection of vehicles, only 2 (of 3) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10. The exception was a vehicle Murat hired, while 8 vehicles Harrison never said anything about (including the Renault Scenic) made the line-up.
Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.
Why did Harrison wait until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and cars?
And why did Harrison wait until after both inspections at the gym and the villa before issuing PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct searches in buildings and cars?
How did the inspection in the gym, particularly, come about?
From the files, the only explanation we get of the inspection at the gym is this:
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, [the gym] attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood Fodours.
Possibly indicated by the dogs
(Or possibly not!)
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2014, 08:26:12 AM
I think its best to be clear. As you know,some people will argue that north is south and black is white when it suits them.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2014, 11:46:40 AM
Here is another detail that has always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym.
My biggest beef about the inspection of vehicles has long been the simple fact of 10 cars inspected simultaneously.
There was an innocent scent in the Renault and there might, easily, have been innocent scents in any of the other 9 cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.
Now read this:
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area [of the gym] to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
An apparent acknowledgment of the possibility of pre-existing scents that might compromise a search, and a precaution against that.
Except that, there was no gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search, suggesting that the clothes were already laid out before the reconnoitre.
So why was not any apparent scent detected during the reconnoitre?
Or did the PJ read these instructions Mark Harrison gave them on how to conduct a search and take bits from them that looked good for their report?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: gilet on March 29, 2014, 03:40:03 AM
That is an interesting observation Ferryman.
I looked back at the video to see if that helped on the matter but unfortunately it didn't.
However I saw something else which I suspect would make it difficult to use the dog alert in the gym in a court in any meaningful way.
Watch from 58:10 as the PT officers empty one box of clothes with no separation between those clothes at all, meaning that cross-contamination would be almost inevitable. If one item had cadaver scent on it then those rubbing against it in that box would likely as not be contaminated. That is why in this country no police force would collect evidence in such a slapdash way. They would ensure that each item was separately bagged.
I had long been aware of the potential of cross-contamination in these clothing boxes because of the slapdash handling of the clothes but and this is a big but, I hadn't actually noticed exactly what follows from 1:01:00 to 1:01:25 with that in mind. The three clothing alerts are almost adjacent to each other. And having seen how the PJ officers took the clothing earlier in the film from another box the fact that these three items are so close suggest very strongly that they could in fact have been pressed against each other in the cardboard box. No lawyer would fail to challenge the notion that these could be recorded as three separate alerts when such a strong possibility of cross contamination exists. It is almost impossible to believe in such a situation that cross-contamination would not occur.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2014, 11:32:52 AM
there isnt any evidence taht maddie has been harmed
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Estuarine on March 29, 2014, 12:29:50 PM
there isnt any evidence taht maddie has been harmed
This is true but equally there isn't any evidence to suggest that she hasn't been harmed. If, however, one chucks into the mix that a little girl vanished into thin air nearly 7 years ago and in that time there has been no credible sighting and she has made no attempt to contact the authorities the balance of probability starts to shift. Whether one accepts the abduction theory or the MPS postulation that Madeleine McCann may not have have left the apartment alive the lack of evidence that she has been harmed becomes merely an academic point as there are indicators that she may have been harmed.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2014, 01:21:40 PM
This is true but equally there isn't any evidence to suggest that she hasn't been harmed. If, however, one chucks into the mix that a little girl vanished into thin air nearly 7 years ago and in that time there has been no credible sighting and she has made no attempt to contact the authorities the balance of probability starts to shift. Whether one accepts the abduction theory or the MPS postulation that Madeleine McCann may not have have left the apartment alive the lack of evidence that she has been harmed becomes merely an academic point as there are indicators that she may have been harmed.
I answered a specific question...it is obvious to everyone that Maddie is almost certainly dead...even her parents I am fairly sure would accept this...however..there is no evidence that she is dead...therefore as SY correctly state she may still be alive...your constant attempts to prove me wrong are making you look rather silly
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Anna on March 29, 2014, 01:32:20 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve The Guardian
Corrections and clarifications
Corrections and clarifications column editor The Guardian, Friday 21 March 2014
• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic22027.html#p287378 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ “May not follow with all of our thinking“ and the other statement, “police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was”
I read this , to be including the Portuguese police investigators as well as NSY….. Hence a difference of opinion between the police of Portugal, who are the investigators of a crime in their own country and NSY , who are not Portuguese officials. They did not say, British police or NSY. He said “police”
Since everybody on here assumes that he was referring to the British police only, I must have been reading it wrong?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on March 29, 2014, 01:40:03 PM
I certainly read it as divergence within his team, but you may well be right. I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later.
Not something I'm going to get worked up over.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2014, 01:41:24 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve The Guardian
Corrections and clarifications
Corrections and clarifications column editor The Guardian, Friday 21 March 2014
• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic22027.html#p287378 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ “May not follow with all of our thinking“ and the other statement, “police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was”
I read this , to be including the Portuguese police investigators as well as NSY….. Hence a difference of opinion between the police of Portugal, who are the investigators of a crime in their own country and NSY , who are not Portuguese officials. They did not say, British police or NSY. He said “police”
Since everybody on here assumes that he was referring to the British police only, I must have been reading it wrong?
As far as I am concerned...now that there is basically nothing to link the mccans with maddie's disappearance.....posters are having to take the slightest comment and try to make something of it....absolute desperation
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Estuarine on March 29, 2014, 02:02:15 PM
I answered a specific question...it is obvious to everyone that Maddie is almost certainly dead...even her parents I am fairly sure would accept this...however..there is no evidence that she is dead...therefore as SY correctly state she may still be alive...your constant attempts to prove me wrong are making you look rather silly
Oh gosh! Perish the thought. I really must mend my ways and educate myself; an anonymous know all thinks I look silly. Quel dommage.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Estuarine on March 29, 2014, 02:11:59 PM
I answered a specific question...it is obvious to everyone that Maddie is almost certainly dead...even her parents I am fairly sure would accept this...however..there is no evidence that she is dead...therefore as SY correctly state she may still be alive...your constant attempts to prove me wrong are making you look rather silly
Your post 474 on this thread; there isnt any evidence taht maddie has been harmed It would interesting to see how that statement can be reconciled with the bold bit in your post.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2014, 02:18:42 PM
Your post 474 on this thread; there isnt any evidence taht maddie has been harmed It would interesting to see how that statement can be reconciled with the bold bit in your post.
There is no evidence Maddie is dead
Maddie is almost certainly dead
Which one don't you agree with... they are both true as far as I am concerned
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Anna on April 06, 2014, 03:25:33 PM
But I did not ask you whether you believed the cadaver dog picked up the scent of Madeleine McCann's dead body .... I aked if you accepted it is 'possible' that he did
It is possible, isn't it ?
Possible but Highly unlikely. Do you believe it is possible, she was abducted? It is possible is it not? After all that is what SC believes
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on April 06, 2014, 04:06:51 PM
Possible but Highly unlikely. Do you believe it is possible, she was abducted? It is possible is it not? After all that is what SC believes
Actually DCI Redwood's last words on the subject was that abduction "may not follow all our thinking in this case". http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Anna on April 06, 2014, 04:22:30 PM
Actually DCI Redwood's last words on the subject was that abduction "may not follow all our thinking in this case". http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
I know Caraid, but I believed at the time that it meant this
“May not follow with all of our thinking“ and the other statement……….. “police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was”
I read this , to be including the Portuguese police investigators as well as NSY….. As in “All” Hence a difference of opinion between the police of Portugal, who are the investigators of a crime in their own country and NSY , who are not Portuguese officials. He did not say, British police or NSY. He said “police”
However I do believe SY are still looking for an abductor with a disgustingly small reward for evidence pointing in the direction of anyone involved in her disappearance.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 06, 2014, 04:25:17 PM
Actually DCI Redwood's last words on the subject was that abduction "may not follow all our thinking in this case". http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Detective Ch Insp Andy Redwood, who is leading the investigation, said:
‘Madeleine McCann’s disappearance does, on one reading of the evidence, have the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction that would undoubtedly have involved reconnaissance.’
I know Caraid, but I believed at the time that it meant this
“May not follow with all of our thinking“ and the other statement……….. “police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was”
I read this , to be including the Portuguese police investigators as well as NSY….. As in “All” Hence a difference of opinion between the police of Portugal, who are the investigators of a crime in their own country and NSY , who are not Portuguese officials. He did not say, British police or NSY. He said “police”
However I do believe SY are still looking for an abductor with a disgustingly small reward for evidence pointing in the direction of anyone involved in her disappearance.
Suggesting that Redwood was 'speaking for' the Portuguese police is insupportable ( I can't think why you would assume he was )
When Redwood said that there was a possibility that Madeleine died in apartment 5A he was speaking for Scotland Yard's 'thinking' alone ... he has no remit ( or right ) to speak for any other police force's 'thinking'
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Anna on April 06, 2014, 04:36:09 PM
Suggesting that Redwood was 'speaking for' the Portuguese police is insupportable ( I can't think why you would assume he was )
When Redwood said that there was a possibility that Madeleine died in apartment 5A he was speaking for Scotland Yard's 'thinking' alone ... he has no remit ( or right ) to speak for any other police force's 'thinking'
Do not assume that we have been informed of your calls by the Portugal police ( with a smirk on his face)
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 06, 2014, 04:43:00 PM
Do not assume that we have been informed of your calls by the Portugal police ( with a smirk on his face)
Anna, I understand that you would prefer Scotland Yard had not confirmed that there is a possibility Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A, but it is rather desperate to pretend that what Redwood 'meant' to say was that the Portuguese Police believe that, and not Scotland Yard themselves
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 06, 2014, 04:54:48 PM
Anna, I understand that you would prefer Scotland Yard had not confirmed that there is a possibility Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A, but it is rather desperate to pretend that what Redwood 'meant' to say was that the Portuguese Police believe that, and not Scotland Yard themselves
Anna, I understand that you would prefer Scotland Yard had not confirmed that there is a possibility Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A, but it is rather desperate to pretend that what Redwood 'meant' to say was that the Portuguese Police believe that, and not Scotland Yard themselves
I am in no sense desperate to prove any untruth. I simply told how I read it
Below shows just how as clear as mud that statement was..........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve The Guardian (Scroll Down)
Corrections and clarifications
Corrections and clarifications column editor The Guardian, Friday 21 March 2014
• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
whether the police pursue a case or not its the evidence in court that counts as amaral has shown. Pursued the mccanns and got nowhere because of alck of evidence
A lack of evidence does not mean there is no involvement in a crime.
Next.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on April 06, 2014, 05:52:50 PM
I am in no sense desperate to prove any untruth. I simply told how I read it
Below shows just how as clear as mud that statement was..........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve The Guardian (Scroll Down)
Corrections and clarifications
Corrections and clarifications column editor The Guardian, Friday 21 March 2014
• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
I agree that the article is ambiguous and poorly worded, I don't think it's possible that DCI Redwood can be speaking for the PJ though as it isn't a joint investigation.
They can only be speaking for SY.
My personal opinion is that throwing out the line that abduction may not follow all their thinking in this case is extremely unhelpful.
I can't believe that sy are unaware that there are those in the population who doubt the Mccann's version of events and such a statement can only fuel speculation.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 06, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
I agree that the article is ambiguous and poorly worded, I don't think it's possible that DCI Redwood can be speaking for the PJ though as it isn't a joint investigation.
They can only be speaking for SY.
My personal opinion is that throwing out the line that abduction may not follow all their thinking in this case is extremely unhelpful.
I can't believe that sy are unaware that there are those in the population who doubt the Mccann's version of events and such a statement can only fuel speculation.
He has made it clear that the mccanns are not suspects so I would think he expected that to put an end to the speculation
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on April 06, 2014, 06:18:47 PM
At that time he was also claiming that Madeline was an alive and findable child. Things change.
he has not said that she isn't still findable...you are assuming he has changed his mind
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: hustling01 on April 08, 2014, 01:36:49 AM
DCI redwood reckons a burglary suspect killed her in case she identified him/them and panicked and took her, The police have ruled out the mcanns and the other group 100%.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 08, 2014, 01:44:50 AM
DCI redwood reckons a burglary suspect killed her in case she identified him/them and panicked and took her, The police have ruled out the mcanns and the other group 100%.
And when, exactly, did DCI Redwood say that is what he 'reckons' ?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on April 08, 2014, 08:32:00 AM
DCI redwood reckons a burglary suspect killed her in case she identified him/them and panicked and took her, The police have ruled out the mcanns and the other group 100%.
I fear you have been reading far too many tabloid stories.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: John on April 08, 2014, 10:45:33 AM
It is intriguing that Redwood felt it necessary to divulge that information at the last Press conference. If Madeleine was dead before she was taken from the apartment as he stated as being a distinct possibility then she was not abducted. So what Redwood has actually stated in a roundabout manner is that Madeleine might not have been abducted.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on April 08, 2014, 11:08:33 AM
But .... but, she must have been abducted - the McCanns say so.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on April 08, 2014, 12:36:19 PM
But .... but, she must have been abducted - the McCanns say so.
They have also said they realise that she may be dead, but will continue to believe she may still be alive until it is proved that she is not. A perfectly normal reaction by any parents of a missing child IMO- and also respecting Madeleine's right not to be dismissed and discarded as 'dead'.
We are not privy to SY's investigations into the man who broke into 12 apartments and targetted British little girls. IMO it could well be that those investigations have led SY to suspect he may have killed Madeleine - either deliberately or by accident.
We shall have to wait and see.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 08, 2014, 12:57:10 PM
They have also said they realise that she may be dead, but will continue to believe she may still be alive until it is proved that she is not. A perfectly normal reaction by any parents of a missing child IMO- and also respecting Madeleine's right not to be dismissed and discarded as 'dead'.
We are not privy to SY's investigations into the man who broke into 12 apartments and targetted British little girls. IMO it could well be that those investigations have led SY to suspect he may have killed Madeleine - either deliberately or by accident.
We shall have to wait and see.
Officers from Operation Grange have identified a series of 12 crimes between 2004 and 2010 where a male intruder entered villas occupied by UK families on holiday in the Western Algarve.
In four of these incidents - between 2004 and 2006 - the man sexually assaulted five white girls, aged between seven and 10, while in their beds.
The British police's new suspect was already investigated by the PJ and is dead
20 March 2014
Yesterday, the British police announced that it is investigating a new lead within the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann, in 2007, but the suspect was already investigated (and excluded) by the Judiciary Police, Diário de Notícias reports. The man died in 2009.
The new suspect that Scotland Yard was announced yesterday to be investigating, within the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann, in 2007, has already been investigated by the Polícia Judiciária and was dead since 2009, Diário de Notícias reports.
Euclides Monteiro, who was described by witnesses, at the time, as a man with tanned skin and dark, unruly hair, is a Cape Verde native, worked at the Ocean Club (the tourist complex where Maddie's family was spending their holiday) and died in 2009 in a tractor accident.
The inquiry was reopened by the PJ, based on the discovery of this suspect and the British press even reported the Portuguese authorities' lead.
Information that was advanced yesterday by the British authorities mention "a potential suspect of 12 crimes that took place between 2004 and 2010", who "from 2004 until 2006 sexually molested five white British girls aged between seven and 10".
The deceased Cape-Verdian man was responsible for several burglaries and laid on the childrens' beds, according to a PJ source, but never committed any rape. All of these developments were investigated by the GNR, initially, and then passed on to the PJ, which shared them with Scotland Yard.
It is intriguing that Redwood felt it necessary to divulge that information at the last Press conference. If Madeleine was dead before she was taken from the apartment as he stated as being a distinct possibility then she was not abducted. So what Redwood has actually stated in a roundabout manner is that Madeleine might not have been abducted.
Actually, that's exactly what he said. The Guardian issued a correction.
"This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 08, 2014, 01:25:42 PM
Actually, that's exactly what he said. The Guardian issued a correction.
"This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."
looks like what the amendment suggest is that the phrase was taken out of context. without seeing the full interview we won't know so again...speculation is rife
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Benice on April 08, 2014, 01:34:04 PM
Officers from Operation Grange have identified a series of 12 crimes between 2004 and 2010 where a male intruder entered villas occupied by UK families on holiday in the Western Algarve.
In four of these incidents - between 2004 and 2006 - the man sexually assaulted five white girls, aged between seven and 10, while in their beds.
The British police's new suspect was already investigated by the PJ and is dead
20 March 2014
Yesterday, the British police announced that it is investigating a new lead within the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann, in 2007, but the suspect was already investigated (and excluded) by the Judiciary Police, Diário de Notícias reports. The man died in 2009.
The new suspect that Scotland Yard was announced yesterday to be investigating, within the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann, in 2007, has already been investigated by the Polícia Judiciária and was dead since 2009, Diário de Notícias reports.
Euclides Monteiro, who was described by witnesses, at the time, as a man with tanned skin and dark, unruly hair, is a Cape Verde native, worked at the Ocean Club (the tourist complex where Maddie's family was spending their holiday) and died in 2009 in a tractor accident.
The inquiry was reopened by the PJ, based on the discovery of this suspect and the British press even reported the Portuguese authorities' lead.
Information that was advanced yesterday by the British authorities mention "a potential suspect of 12 crimes that took place between 2004 and 2010", who "from 2004 until 2006 sexually molested five white British girls aged between seven and 10".
The deceased Cape-Verdian man was responsible for several burglaries and laid on the childrens' beds, according to a PJ source, but never committed any rape. All of these developments were investigated by the GNR, initially, and then passed on to the PJ, which shared them with Scotland Yard.
So, No sexual assualts between 2004 & 2006, All he did was lay on their beds & the remaining 8 crimes were also just burglaries.
IMO SY are are not talking about the same man - as Monteiro died in 2009 and further incident(s) were then reported in 2010.
Unlike Monteiro - the man who broke into 12 properties did sexually assault children and it may be that only the intervention of the parents prevented him from carrying out assaults every time.
Also IIRC Euclides Monteiro was a Portuguese line of enquiry - not SY's.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 08, 2014, 01:44:01 PM
IMO SY are are not talking about the same man - as Monteiro died in 2009 and further incident(s) were then reported in 2010.
Unlike Monteiro - the man who broke into 12 properties did sexually assault children and it may be that only the intervention of the parents prevented him from carrying out assaults every time.
Also IIRC Euclides Monteiro was a Portuguese line of enquiry - not SY's.
the man who broke into 12 properties did sexually assault children
On 4 of those occaisions between 2004 & 2006 allegedly & the remaining crimes were just burglaries.
it may be that only the intervention of the parents prevented him from carrying out assaults every time.
But none of them managed to get a decent look at his face, they just saw his pot belly, caught a whiff of B.O & heard the distant sound of bin lorries.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Cariad on April 08, 2014, 01:49:05 PM
looks like what the amendment suggest is that the phrase was taken out of context. without seeing the full interview we won't know so again...speculation is rife
Yeah, I did make that point a couple of days ago. If Andy Redwood is going to go throwing out lines like that with no follow up, what else is going to happen?
Surely he must've expected speculation would be rife.
It was a very unhelpful comment.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 08, 2014, 02:41:52 PM
Yeah, I did make that point a couple of days ago. If Andy Redwood is going to go throwing out lines like that with no follow up, what else is going to happen?
Surely he must've expected speculation would be rife.
It was a very unhelpful comment.
Well, it appears the McCanns are unimpressed with it given that the home page of their official website still states :
"There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed"
Which rather puts them at odds with Scotland Yard, doesn't it ?
Scotland Yard's 'thinking' is not only that Madeleine may have been harmed, but that she may have died ... right there in apartment 5A
Something must be suggestive of that possibility for it to be part of Scotland Yard's 'thinking' on the case
I think it's the cadaver dog alerts
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on April 08, 2014, 02:50:37 PM
Well, it appears the McCanns are unimpressed with it given that the home page of their official website still states :
"There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed"
Which rather puts them at odds with Scotland Yard, doesn't it ?
Scotland Yard's 'thinking' is not only that Madeleine may have been harmed, but that she may have died ... right there in apartment 5A
Something must be suggestive of that possibility for it to be part of Scotland Yard's 'thinking' on the case
I think it's the cadaver dog alerts
you are taking every remark as an official statement that has been carefully thought through when the truth is probably the complete opposite. There is plenty to suggest Maddie is dead never mind harmed and I'm sure the McCanns would agree with this. there is no proof she has been harmed and this is no doubt what Gerry means
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 08, 2014, 02:54:02 PM
you are taking every remark as an official statement that has been carefully thought through when the truth is probably the complete opposite. There is plenty to suggest Maddie is dead never mind harmed and I'm sure the McCanns would agree with this. there is no proof she has been harmed and this is no doubt what Gerry means
But Redwood said Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in the apartment
What is there that is 'suggestive' of that ? ... other than the cadaver dog alerts
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 08, 2014, 02:56:36 PM
Redwood never used the word suggestive...it has always been apossibility that Maddie died in the appt...that's why the dogs were brought in
Scotland Yard would not announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment if it was just some vague, abstract possibility
For them to have presented a scenario in which a dead Madeleine is placed in apartment 5A, then it was because something was suggestive of that possibility
I think that 'something' is the cadaver dog alerts
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 08, 2014, 03:22:35 PM
Scotland Yard would not announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment if it was just some vague, abstract possibility
For them to have presented a scenario in which a dead Madeleine is placed in apartment 5A, then it was because something was suggestive of that possibility
I think that 'something' is the cadaver dog alerts
Scotland Yard would not announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment if it was just some vague, abstract possibility
For them to have presented a scenario in which a dead Madeleine is placed in apartment 5A, then it was because something was suggestive of that possibility
I think that 'something' is the cadaver dog alerts
SY have not announced and they have not presented a scenario...that would be quite different. redwood has made an off the cuff remark.IMO ...and as everything has pointed away from the McCanns there is a desperation to see anything that supports your theories. I think you will be proved wrong yet again....but for now you have some comfort that perhaps you have not been totally wrong for the last seven years...I think you have
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 08, 2014, 03:52:28 PM
Scotland Yard would not announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment if it was just some vague, abstract possibility
For them to have presented a scenario in which a dead Madeleine is placed in apartment 5A, then it was because something was suggestive of that possibility
I think that 'something' is the cadaver dog alerts
Combined with 60-80% man walking toward the ocean carrying an inert child, IMO
the individual carried the child in his arms, with her head laying on the individual's shoulders to the right of the deponent. He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position.
Questioned, says that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was in a deep sleep.
She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping.
Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 08, 2014, 04:31:52 PM
Scotland Yard would not announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment if it was just some vague, abstract possibility
Does that mean therefore that when SY announce that Kate and Gerry and their friends are not suspects in Madeleine's disappearance it is a similarly definite statement, in your view?
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: jassi on April 08, 2014, 07:12:06 PM
Does that mean therefore that when SY announce that Kate and Gerry and their friends are not suspects in Madeleine's disappearance it is a similarly definite statement, in your view?
Not necessarily. When faced with a direct question, they could hardly say otherwise without provoking an outburst from the McCanns's lawyers. In the case of possible death, there was really no need to mention it at all without there being good reason.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on April 08, 2014, 07:24:32 PM
Not necessarily. When faced with a direct question, they could hardly say otherwise without provoking an outburst from the McCanns's lawyers. In the case of possible death, there was really no need to mention it at all without there being good reason.
I don't recall Redwood being asked if the McCanns or their friends were still suspects, it was information freely given as part of his statement at the time as I recall. Personally I don't see there having been any change in SY's stance - they have always stressed that Madeleine may be dead, and of course one possibility that we've all been aware of, sadly, is that she was killed in the apartment prior to being removed.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 08, 2014, 07:32:44 PM
AW: Now, it's been a tough week for you. The Portuguese press, in particular, seem to be conducting what could be described as a 'smear campaign' against you and attempting to put the blame of Madeleine's disappearance on you. Where are they getting this information from and how do you react to it?
GM: Ehhh... we don't read Portuguese, so, I think that's the first thing to say that, errr... we haven't read the, errr... accounts first hand, errr... there does seem to be, errr... a consistency this week - and claims from police sources - but to be perfectly frank we don't know how much of that is true and how much of it's speculation. What we do know is that speculation certainly doesn't help us. We know a number of the facts and, errm... I have not seen any evidence, or know of any direct evidence, to have changed our... our viewpoint to what we have held for the last hundred days and, you know, we've said all along and... everything we have done, during the last hundred days, is focussed on, errr... the belief that Madeleine was alive when she was abducted and, errm... certainly, errr... we were encouraged in that respect and, errr... everything we have done is to increase the chances of her being returned.
I don't recall Redwood being asked if the McCanns or their friends were still suspects, it was information freely given as part of his statement at the time as I recall. Personally I don't see there having been any change in SY's stance - they have always stressed that Madeleine may be dead, and of course one possibility that we've all been aware of, sadly, is that she was killed in the apartment prior to being removed.
I don't recall either for sure, though I thought it was in response to a question. However no doubt someone far more engrossed than myself will come along with the answer shortly.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 08, 2014, 07:37:42 PM
I don't recall Redwood being asked if the McCanns or their friends were still suspects, it was information freely given as part of his statement at the time as I recall. Personally I don't see there having been any change in SY's stance - they have always stressed that Madeleine may be dead, and of course one possibility that we've all been aware of, sadly, is that she was killed in the apartment prior to being removed.
Kate must have considered that quite early on when she saw fit to search for Maddie inside a big dumpster type bin.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 08, 2014, 07:39:07 PM
I don't recall Redwood being asked if the McCanns or their friends were still suspects, it was information freely given as part of his statement at the time as I recall. Personally I don't see there having been any change in SY's stance - they have always stressed that Madeleine may be dead, and of course one possibility that we've all been aware of, sadly, is that she was killed in the apartment prior to being removed.
He would be stupid to say it and I wouldn't want them to think any different until the time is right. No more secret meetings 8(0(*
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on April 08, 2014, 10:21:26 PM
Kate must have considered that quite early on when she saw fit to search for Maddie inside a big dumpster type bin.
I don't think that necessarily supports the view that Kate believed Madeleine was killed in the apartment. She may have feared that Madeleine had been disposed of after being abducted and murdered.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on April 08, 2014, 10:27:28 PM
He would be stupid to say it and I wouldn't want them to think any different until the time is right. No more secret meetings 8(0(*
It would make more sense if you were working towards arresting Kate and Gerry to give a non-committal response to a question about the McCanns' possible involvement a) because it wouldn't make you look so stupid at a later date and b) because it would undoubtedly unsettle and put pressure on your suspects.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 09, 2014, 12:24:12 AM
It would make more sense if you were working towards arresting Kate and Gerry to give a non-committal response to a question about the McCanns' possible involvement a) because it wouldn't make you look so stupid at a later date and b) because it would undoubtedly unsettle and put pressure on your suspects.
I think they want to get on and do their job. They don't need the media circus coming to town and sending in the clowns.
Title: Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 09, 2014, 01:26:32 PM
I don't think that necessarily supports the view that Kate believed Madeleine was killed in the apartment. She may have feared that Madeleine had been disposed of after being abducted and murdered.
We know a number of the facts and, errm... I have not seen any evidence, or know of any direct evidence, to have changed our... our viewpoint to what we have held for the last hundred days and, you know, we've said all along and... everything we have done, during the last hundred days, is focussed on, errr... the belief that Madeleine was alive when she was abducted and, errm...certainly, errr... we were encouraged in that respect and, errr...