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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on March 20, 2014, 11:30:40 PM
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Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10? Read the rog interviews from the others. Fiona was doing first searches with Matt, David and Russ. After telling Matt to call the police she goes to see Kate who is alone in 5A. Gerry has vanished like Madeleine. You don't find that unusual?
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Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10? Read the rog interviews from the others. Fiona was doing first searches with Matt, David and Russ. After telling Matt to call the police she goes to see Kate who is alone in 5A. Gerry has vanished like Madeleine. You don't find that unusual?
Erm, Pathfinder, I think you will find that one of the tapas waiters saw Gerry searching the Tapas garden area at about that time.
I am sorry but I cant read the statements to give you a cite. But I feel sure that someone else will find it
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Was he on his own? Matt & David were searching the tapas area and pool. Funny how none of the others in the group saw him. Read the rog interviews.
"I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is."
"I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we've got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I'll, I'll you know so he went off down to the Police Station." (DP)
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Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10? Read the rog interviews from the others. Fiona was doing first searches with Matt, David and Russ. After telling Matt to call the police she goes to see Kate who is alone in 5A. Gerry has vanished like Madeleine. You don't find that unusual?
The various 2007 statements of all 5 have little search route information IMO because the PJ did not specifically ask.
The 2008 statements (of only 4 of the 5) have lots of search route information IMO because the PJ now did ask.
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Was he on his own? Matt & David were searching the tapas area and pool.
"I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is."
"I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we've got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I'll, I'll you know so he went off down to the Police Station." (DP)
I bet everywhere was searched by everyone ! They were in such a panic
I feel, pretty sure that Gerry was searching the tapas area, tennis courts and pool. Maybe someone can confirm
Twas in one of the waiters or restaurant workers testimony.
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Was he on his own? Matt & David were searching the tapas area and pool. Funny how none of the others in the group saw him. Read the rog interviews.
"I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is."
"I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we've got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I'll, I'll you know so he went off down to the Police Station." (DP)
Yep, IIRC he was on his own.
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None of the men in the tapas group can confirm where he was? There are contradictions In the tapas staff statements - one said they saw Gerry others say it was Matt and David. I would go with the group who were out in the initial searches and know Gerry not one waiter.
5 are out searching from 10 to 10.10 - Fiona, Gerry, David, Russ and Matt
1 Dianne Webster at table
1 Kate in 5A
1 Jane Tanner in her apartment.
1 Rachael Oldfield went to her apartment
Total 9
From the 5 out searching read their rog interviews - none of them remembers seeing Gerry with them in the initial first searches. All the other men remember seeing each other but not Gerry. He's disappeared just like his daughter!
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None of the men in the tapas group can confirm where he was? There are contradictions In the tapas staff statements - one said they saw Gerry others say it was Matt and David. I would go with the group who were out in the initial searches and know Gerry not one waiter.
5 are out searching from 10 to 10.10 - Fiona, Gerry, David, Russ and Matt
1 Dianne at table
1 Kate in 5A
1 Jane Tanner in her apartment.
1 Rachael Oldfield went to her apartment
Total 9
From the 5 out searching read their rog interviews - none of them remembers seeing Gerry with them in the initial first searches. All the other men remember seeing each other but not Gerry. He's disappeared just like his daughter!
I think that you are not taking account of the panic they were in.
My bet is that every one of them checked the pool,area and the tapas garden cos they knew Madeleine was familiar with it. Also the climbing frame and kiddies stuff was there.... and familiar people such as the restaurant staff.
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The various 2007 statements of all 5 have little search route information IMO because the PJ did not specifically ask.
The 2008 statements (of only 4 of the 5) have lots of search route information IMO because the PJ now did ask.
And you will never get the information from the missing 5th one.
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None of the men in the tapas group can confirm where he was? There are contradictions In the tapas staff statements - one said they saw Gerry others say it was Matt and David. I would go with the group who were out in the initial searches and know Gerry not one waiter.
5 are out searching from 10 to 10.10 - Fiona, Gerry, David, Russ and Matt
1 Dianne Webster at table
1 Kate in 5A
1 Jane Tanner in her apartment.
1 Rachael Oldfield went to her apartment
Total 9
From the 5 out searching read their rog interviews - none of them remembers seeing Gerry with them in the initial first searches. All the other men remember seeing each other but not Gerry. He's disappeared just like his daughter!
That's very interesting pathfinder, thank you for your research into the tapas group statements
I know that kate says, in her book, that Gerry was 'running from pillar to post' during that time ( although how she knew that when she was in the apartment the whole time she does not say )
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I think that you are not taking account of the panic they were in.
My bet is that every one of them checked the pool,area and the tapas garden cos they knew Madeleine was familiar with it. Also the climbing frame and kiddies stuff was there.... and familiar people such as the restaurant staff.
What you're missing is after doing an initial sweep they all quickly met up again i.e. Fiona, Matt, Russ and David. The only one missing was Gerry! They never saw him again until at least 15/20 minutes later when he went with John Hill to call the police at 10.40.
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GM was seen by witnesses searching shouting her name at about 10pm.
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What you're missing is after doing an initial sweep they all quickly met up again i.e. Fiona, Matt, Russ and David. The only one missing was Gerry! They never saw him again until at least 15/20 minutes later when he went with John Hill to call the police at 10.40.
Kate did say, in her book, that during the period you refer to, Gerry ( as part of his lone searching ) went to the night creche above the main reception to see if Madeleine had been left there
Is there anything in the statements that verifies that ? ... did any of the staff at the night creche say Gerry came there asking questions that night ?
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Kate did say, in her book, that during the period you refer to, Gerry ( as part of his lone searching ) went to the night creche above the main reception to see if Madeleine had been left there
Is there anything in the statements that verifies that ? ... did any of the staff at the night creche say Gerry came there asking questions that night ?
Nobody saw Gerry at the crèche. He went by there to go up the path to come out at Murat's. Where was he before the crèche - follow that road straight down - where does it lead to?
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What you're missing is after doing an initial sweep they all quickly met up again i.e. Fiona, Matt, Russ and David. The only one missing was Gerry! They never saw him again until at least 15/20 minutes later when he went with John Hill to call the police at 10.40.
God strewth, Pathfinder.
Just think about it. They must have had a pretty good idea what had happened to Madeleine, even if they were frightened to admit it to themselves.
He and kate would be together, comforting each other, trying to work out what to do, and phoning their loved ones back home for support. Without any good news, the others would be embarrassed to go in initially imo.
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GM was seen by witnesses searching shouting her name at about 10pm.
Thankyou Pegasus.
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God strewth, Pathfinder.
Just think about it. They must have had a pretty good idea what had happened to Madeleine, even if they were frightened to admit it to themselves.
He and kate would be together, comforting each other, trying to work out what to do, and phoning their loved ones back home for support. Without any good news, the others would be embarrassed to go in initially imo.
No it's not it's FACTS from witness statements. Kate was alone when Dianne came and alone when Fiona came after at 10.10. Gerry wasn't in 5A comforting Kate. He was somewhere else! So where was he? You've got a child missing now the father is also missing!
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That's very interesting pathfinder, thank you for your research into the tapas group statements
I know that kate says, in her book, that Gerry was 'running from pillar to post' during that time ( although how she knew that when she was in the apartment the whole time she does not say )
The apartment includes a balcony with fairly extensive views. Almost certianly he would keep reporting back. As Pegasus confirms he was searching the Tapas area after 10pm.
Unless you are now going to change the time that Kate reported back to suit your needs!
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No it's not it facts from witness statements. Kate was alone when Dianne came and alone when Fiona came after at 10.10. Gerry wasn't in 5A comforting Kate. He was somewhere else! So where was he? You've got a child missing now the father is also missing!
He would be in and out.
Think about it.
Anyway he was seen searching soon after 10pm and the Smiths saw Smithman at 10pm.
So sorry, try as you will, you cant poin it on Gerry
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He would be in and out.
Think about it.
Anyway he was seen searching soon after 10pm and the Smiths saw Smithman at 10pm.
So sorry, try as you will, you cant poin it on Gerry
10.03
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...As Pegasus confirms he was searching the Tapas area after 10pm...
I said witnesses saw GM searching shouting her name at about 10pm.
I did not say tapas area.
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The apartment includes a balcony with fairly extensive views. Almost certianly he would keep reporting back. As Pegasus confirms he was searching the Tapas area after 10pm.
Unless you are now going to change the time that Kate reported back to suit your needs!
I don't know what that has to do with the question pathfinder has raised
What witnesses ... including his friends ... gave statements that verified Gerry McCanns whereabouts for the time period pathfinder has highlighted ?
There might BE witness statements that do that ... I'm just asking to see them
That's fair I think
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10.03
You say he was seen by Irish family at 10.03pm.
So where does your theory position him at 10.00pm?
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You say he was seen by Irish family at 10.03pm.
So where does your theory position him at 10.00pm?
The question pathfinder raised ... and it is a fair one ... was where was Gerry McCann for the twenty or so minutes after the alert was raised
Is there a witness statement that verifies his whereabouts during that period ?
There might be .... but the question has been asked
Can you, or any member here, answer it ?
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The question pathfinder raised ... and it is a fair one ... was where was Gerry McCann for the twenty or so minutes after the alert was raised
Is there a witness statement that verifies his whereabouts during that period ?
There might be .... but the question has been asked
Can you, or any member here, answer it ?
The question I was answering is
...Where is he from 10 to 10.10?...
There are witnesses who saw him searching shouting her name at about 10pm and they spoke with him too.
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The question I was answering is
There are witnesses who saw him searching shouting her name at about 10pm and they spoke with him too.
Well, cherry-picking which questions to answer is a bit pointless I think
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I saw a question by pathfinder and answered it.
The witnesses RB and NB at about 10.00pm saw GM searching and calling her name near the southeast corner of block G6 and they spoke with him.
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After Fiona tells Matt to go and phone the police at 10.10 she goes into 5A and finds Kate alone with the twins. Gerry is not there! He is also missing in the initial first searches:
"Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions." (FP)
5 are out searching from 10 to 10.10 - Fiona, Gerry, David, Russ and Matt
1 Dianne Webster at table/5A
1 Kate in 5A
1 Jane Tanner in her apartment.
1 Rachael Oldfield went to her apartment
Total 9
From the 5 out searching read their rog interviews - none of them remembers seeing Gerry with them in the initial first searches (only Russell see below). After that the other men remember seeing each other but not Gerry. He's disappeared just like his daughter!
1. Nobody saw Gerry at the night crèche.
2. Kate was alone when Dianne Webster came to 5A and when Fiona came after Dianne at 10.10. Gerry wasn't in 5A. So where is he?
This is the one sighting of Gerry from the others at the very start of the first outdoor initial searches. According to Russell, Gerry tells everyone to "Split up and find her!" He is not seen when they reconvene after doing a quick first sweep search - only the other 4 i.e. Fiona, Matt, David and Russell.
"Erm, some people went directly into the flat initially, erm, included, including Gerry and, and Kate, others just stayed at the, at the, at the gate, erm, on the road leading down beside the apartment. Erm, and you know it was, it was absolute, you know, bedlam, there was panic and, you know, I’m not, the, the order of how things were decided and what, and what we did is, is just a complete blur at this point, but, you know, nonetheless, I think people came back out and then, you know, she’s, she’s certainly not there. And I recall, certainly me, erm, erm, Dave, Matt and I think initially at least Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. So everyone did a little bit of a search just in the, in the immediate area and I went along the passageway which was in front of the patio, the patio entrances of, of the apartments, erm, round, all the way along that initially, I think, and unbeknown to me at this point, because we hadn’t really used this entrance a great deal, certainly not walked to the other end of it, it was actually a dead-end, so I then had a look in the, in the front gardens of, of the apartments on the ground floor that you could see, searched a little bit just in between the two apartments and obviously this was a fairly brief search and rapidly doubled back and, erm, you know, the, other people had just came back from the immediate vicinity as well and it was established obviously that no-one had, had found her." (Russell O'Brien Rog Interview)
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As I was saying there is a DCIU report which states at what location two witnesses saw GM at 10pm. But my post disappered. If anyone is interested, ask.
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As I was saying there is a DCIU report which states at what location two witnesses saw GM at 10pm. But my post disappered. If anyone is interested, ask.
What are their names please?
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Didn't he go outside to inspect the well discussed but not so 'jemmied' shutter after the alert was raised shortly after 10pm. He then went off through the club grounds to search and alert people.
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At 10.30 he was outside the apartment because the upstairs neighbour. Mrs Fenn, remembers asking him if he wanted her to call the police
That is one definate sighting of Gerry McCann after Madeleine was reported missing
It's half an hour later though
... anyone know of other confirmed sightings of Gerry earlier than that ?
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The question pathfinder raised ... and it is a fair one ... was where was Gerry McCann for the twenty or so minutes after the alert was raised
Is there a witness statement that verifies his whereabouts during that period ?
There might be .... but the question has been asked
Can you, or any member here, answer it ?
There is at least one OC employee who saw him searching near the pool area. If I get time I'll look for the statement. We should not assume that only the people who gave statements saw him. People were turning up all the time, and not all have them will have necessarily given statements.
I cannot possibly conceive that Gerry had a plan to dispose of Madeleine's body after the alert had been raised. (If that is what you are inferring). How could he possibly know in advance how quickly the police would arrive, or guarantee that someone outside the group wouldn't ring them immediately the alarm was raised. The Police could have been 5 minutes away for all he knew. He couldn't see into the future.
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Didn't he go outside to inspect the well discussed but not so 'jemmied' shutter after the alert was raised shortly after 10pm. He then went off through the club grounds to search and alert people.
No Dianne Webster did that when she came round after Kate told her.
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What are their names please?
The witness names are Berry and Balu, it also requires reading a report by a British analyst, I can find the page number if required
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I saw a question by pathfinder and answered it.
The witnesses RB and NB at about 10.00pm saw GM searching and calling her name near the southeast corner of block G6 and they spoke with him.
Please show me this in the files? Raj Balu and Neil Berry first statements are missing.
"From 22.00 onwards all the events that took place were already described in my previous statement of 7th May 2007 and i cannot add any further information, other than that which was already added." (NB)
"After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony." (RB)
From the missing statements rumoured that Birch somehow got - Berry and Balu spot GM near to Murat's at 10.10/15 not 10pm.
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The witness names are Berry and Balu, it also requires reading a report by a British analyst, I can find the page number if required
Yes please Pegasus. Page number?
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Please show me this in the files? Raj Balu and Neil Berry first statements are missing.
"From 22.00 onwards all the events that took place were already described in my previous statement of 7th May 2007 and i cannot add any further information, other than that which was already added." (NB)
"After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony." (RB)
From the missing statements rumoured that Birch somehow got - Berry and Balu spot GM near to Murat's at 10.10/15 not 10pm.
"We heard noises downstairs"
The noise they heard from 606 balcony was definitely GM shouting the girl's name. I am not making it up, it is in the report written by a British Analyst from the Criminal Investigation Unit who was working with the PJ and had access to all the statements, would you like me to dig out the page reference?
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Yes I know but how was this at 10pm? Where does it say 10pm. Balu's statement says after 22.00.
I found this in the final report:
"pages 31 and 32
Still on Appendix VI, pages 504 and in the following, it was investigated a situation relative to two individuals, NEIL BERRY and RAJINDER BALU (complementary inquests requested in the letter rogatory), specifically relative with the first one, whose information was crossed with the above aforementioned witness, TASMIN SILENCE, namely to what concerns the photo-fit, having this one made clear that it was not that same individual.
This occurrence was targeted due to an information given by an employee of the resort, pages 504 and 505 of the Appendix VI, where a somewhat peculiar situation was reported, supposedly to do with NEIL BERRY. However, in spite of the diligences done, inclusive in the letter rogatory, nothing was established that connected him to the disappearance of the British child."
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Yes please Pegasus. Page number?
Here is the report by a British analyst www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm which identifies that it was GM searching and shouting the child's name which the people on a balcony (southeast corner of block G6) heard below.
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There is at least one OC employee who saw him searching near the pool area. If I get time I'll look for the statement. We should not assume that only the people who gave statements saw him. People were turning up all the time, and not all have them will have necessarily given statements.
I cannot possibly conceive that Gerry had a plan to dispose of Madeleine's body after the alert had been raised. (If that is what you are inferring). How could he possibly know in advance how quickly the police would arrive, or guarantee that someone outside the group wouldn't ring them immediately the alarm was raised. The Police could have been 5 minutes away for all he knew. He couldn't see into the future.
No, it makes no sense whatsoever.
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It does when you needed the tapas bar as the alibi.
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Here is the report by a British analyst www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm which identifies that it was GM searching and shouting the child's name which the people on a balcony (southeast corner of block G6) heard below.
Control Risk T9 statements are in that report. No wonder it has 22.00 as the time when Kate left the table to go and check LOL.
"Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search."
As I've said this is rumoured to be at 10.15 but I can't confirm because their first statements are missing from the files. Ask Birch because he claims to know. Thanks.
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"That Gerry McCann had been seen less than 20 meters from Robert Murat’s backyard at 10.15 pm on the night in question by Neil Berry and Rajh Balu who were sat on the balcony of their holiday apartment."
from here: http://chrisspivey.org/digging-for-madeleine/
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Any evidence of Gerry's whereabouts at 10 to 10.10? Forget Berry/Baju said AFTER 10pm which is rather vague and doesn't mean 10pm.
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Obviously "after 10.00" may include the period 10.00 to 10.10.
GM was definitely the very first searcher the witnesses heard and saw from that upstairsbalcony.
Do you know where the balcony is?
It is clear that the time elapsed from alarm until a searcher looks and shouts along this pathway through a carpark under that balcony would be few minutes at most IMO.
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If Gerry was anywhere other than in the tapas restaurant, where is the commentary from the files of efforts to find him to tell him what happened?
Or did Joao Carlos call it right in his report to state that Gerry was in the tapas restaurant?
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Since Diane was still there it must have been after ten and before 10.10 pm because she didnt leave until 10.05/10pm
also Gerry had searched the Apt before going for help
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On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues—Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: “They’ve left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post176.html#p176
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No Dianne Webster did that when she came round after Kate told her.
And how many other people, do you think pathfinder?
Are you suggesting that Gerry, or anyone else, never even went outside to examine the shutter?
Come on pathfinder, to say that is a joke !
Just cos tiny details dont appear in their statements doesn't mean they didn't happen. Common sense tells you they did.
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And how many other people, do you think pathfinder?
Are you suggesting that Gerry, or anyone else, never even went outside to examine the shutter?
Come on pathfinder, to say that is a joke !
Just cos tiny details dont appear in their statements doesn't mean they didn't happen. Common sense tells you they did.
Sadie,
Kate asked Dianne to look at the shutters. Read her statement. When she arrived Kate was alone. Gerry was out searching with the others not examining shutters. He already broke the shutters when they first arrived. Not the best person to be examining them LOL.
The only joke here is you not offering FACTS?
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Since Diane was still there it must have been after ten and before 10.10 pm because she didnt leave until 10.05/10pm
also Gerry had searched the Apt before going for help
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On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues—Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: “They’ve left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post176.html#p176
Thank you Anna. I think this is the only independent sighing of Gerry in the files (until the rumoured 10.15 Berry/Balu sighting) from when the alarm is raised by Kate at 9.55. He said he saw him before 22H00 but I don't understand the 21H30 estimate but many of these statements are similar in regards to estimate times.
9.55 Alarm - they go to 5A.
9.57 They leave 5A and start searching.
Is Gerry now seen or is that witness confused as other tapas staff witnesses claim Matt and David were seen checking the tapas zone. David being there is confirmed by Dianne Webster. David told her she could leave the table. So was it Gerry or was it Matt or were all 3 seen there?
What time would this sighting be? Well Dianne arrived at 5A around 5 minutes after the 9.55 alarm. So if these men are seen searching the tapas area it was before David told Dianne to leave. So they were checking there just before 10pm. Estimate 9.57-10pm.
Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10?
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Thank you Anna. I think this is the only independent sighing of Gerry in the files (until the rumoured 10.15 Berry/Balu sighting) from when the alarm is raised by Kate at 9.55. He said he saw him before 22H00 but I don't understand the 21H30 estimate but many of these statements are similar in regards to estimate times.
9.55 Alarm - they go to 5A.
9.57 They leave 5A and start searching.
Is Gerry now seen or is that witness confused as other tapas staff witnesses claim Matt and David were seen checking the tapas zone. David being there is confirmed by Dianne Webster. David told her she could leave the table. So was it Gerry or was it Matt or were all 3 seen there?
What time would this sighting be? Well Dianne arrived at 5A around 5 minutes after the 9.55 alarm. So if these men are seen searching the tapas area it was before David told Dianne to leave. So they were checking there just before 10pm. Estimate 9.57-10pm.
Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10?
I believe after Gerry left the Tapas bar followed by everyone there except Diane, he searched the apartment and then went to reception to inform police. This must be when he had a quick look around I don't think he was with anyone, but could be wrong.
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Thank you Anna. I think this is the only independent sighing of Gerry in the files (until the rumoured 10.15 Berry/Balu sighting) from when the alarm is raised by Kate at 9.55. He said he saw him before 22H00 but I don't understand the 21H30 estimate but many of these statements are similar in regards to estimate times.
9.55 Alarm - they go to 5A.
9.57 They leave 5A and start searching.
Is Gerry now seen or is that witness confused as other tapas staff witnesses claim Matt and David were seen checking the tapas zone. David being there is confirmed by Dianne Webster. David told her she could leave the table. So was it Gerry or was it Matt or were all 3 seen there?
What time would this sighting be? Well Dianne arrived at 5A around 5 minutes after the 9.55 alarm. So if these men are seen searching the tapas area it was before David told Dianne to leave. So they were checking there just before 10pm. Estimate 9.57-10pm.
Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10?
Where do you get alarm being raised at 9.55 from? Source please.
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t584-what-time-was-the-alarm-raised
justagrannynow 1 on Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:26 pm
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The Tapas group all say Kate left the table at 10pm to do her check. She had to walk to the apartment where she says she found Madeleine missing. She did a search of the apartment before returning to the Tapas Bar to raise the alarm, so we can conclude that, according to the parents and their friends, the alarm was raised a few minutes after 10pm. Although not all of them had their watches on, according to Clarence Mitchell, not one of them puts Kate returning before 10pm,.
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Barman Jeronimo Rodrigues Salcedas made two statements to the police. In his first statement of the 6th May he says that around 10.20 to 10.30pm he noticed Diane Webster sitting at the table on her own. Gerry McCann was searching the bushes around the pool area. However, when interviewed by Leicestershire Police on the 23rd April 2008, he describes the same scenario but places the time at 21.30 to 22.00hrs. Why was this witness interviewed twice? Was it to check his timings, given the statements of other witnesses, or was it to confirm that Gerry McCann was searching the bushes around the pool area? Why would Gerry McCann be doing this?
I think we know that Diane Webster left the tapas at about 10.05 -10.10.
Seems from the discrepancies in the statements that Jeronimo saw Gerry searching but that he is not very good with times. He has two sets of times,
10.20 to 10.30pm
21.30 to 22.00hrs.
So just when was Gerry searching? From this we dont know.
Even if Madeleine had woke and wandered, she could not have accessed the Ocean Complex without a swipe card to open the door between Reception and the pool area.
Is that information correct, or is it myth? No swipe card was needed when I was there. Both entrance and exit were wide open and inviting. We walked straight thru and had a meal in the tapas outdoor restaurant. Nobody on duty in the tapas reception either. Neither in, nor out. This was in high season, mid summer 2010
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I believe after Gerry left the Tapas bar followed by everyone there except Diane, he searched the apartment and then went to reception to inform police. This must be when he had a quick look around I don't think he was with anyone, but could be wrong.
Nope Gerry never went to call the police until John Hill arrived. John Hill wasn't informed about the disappearance until 10.28.
"Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007." (John Hill Statement)
Matt went at 10.10 and was told by Fiona Payne to go. The McCann's were not involved. Fiona asked Matt to go on her own accord. It had nothing to do with Kate or Gerry.
First searches start just before 10pm, when they reconvene 10 minutes later Gerry is missing. Only Fiona, Matt, Russ and David meet up again. Fiona asks Matt to go and phone the police and then she goes to 5A and finds Kate alone. So from 10 to 10.10 Gerry is missing?
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Nope Gerry never went to call the police until John Hill arrived. John Hill wasn't informed about the disappearance until 10.28.
Matt went at 10.10 and was told by Fiona Payne to go. The McCann's were not involved. Fiona asked Matt to go on her own accord. It had nothing to do with Kate or Gerry.
First searches start just before 10pm, when they reconvene 10 minutes later Gerry is missing. Only Fiona, Matt, Russ and David meet up again. Fiona asks Matt to go and phone the police and then Kate goes to 5A where she finds Kate alone. So from 10 to 10.10 Gerry is missing?
Gerry searched the apartment before he done anything else.
Amy Tierney Creche worker
THE WINDOW AND BLIND Were OPEN.
The witness confirms that the girl’s father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 – 35 minutes to arrive.}
( I think the 20 minutes passed ,was the reception waiting time before calling police)
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
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[Where do you get alarm being raised at 9.55 from? Source please.]
Sadie, Please read the rog interviews. It is clear Matt said 9.50 Kate left to check. Russ was back about 5 minutes before Kate left he said. Russ got back to the table at 9.45 according to him. Fiona said Kate left 9.45 to 10pm. They all say she wasn't gone long so my estimate time is 9.55 for Kate running back and raising the alarm.
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[Where do you get alarm being raised at 9.55 from? Source please.]
Sadie, Please read the rog interviews. It is clear Matt said 9.50 Kate left to check. Russ was back about 5 minutes before Kate left he said. Russ got back to the table at 9.45 according to him. Fiona said Kate left 9.45 to 10pm. They all say she wasn't gone long so my estimate time is 9.55 for Kate running back and raising the alarm.
Gerry's statement
The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up.
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Gerry searched the apartment before he done anything else.
Amy Tierney Creche worker
THE WINDOW AND BLIND Were OPEN.
The witness confirms that the girl’s father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 – 35 minutes to arrive.}
( I think the 20 minutes passed ,was the reception waiting time before calling police)
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
Gerry went with John Hill to reception to call the police. Time is not until 10.41pm. That is FACT! GNR arrive 20 minutes later at around 11pm. This has nothing to do with where Gerry was between 10 to 10.10?
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Gerry's statement
The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up.
He actually said Kate left the table to check at 10.03 an exact time aka the Columbo mistake ?>)()<
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Gerry went with John Hill to reception to call the police. Time is not until 10.41pm. This is FACT! GNR arrive 20 minutes later at around 11pm. This has nothing to do with where Gerry was between 10 to 10.10?
[/b]
Well it does if he was reporting the disappearance at that time.
The waiter and Matthew also reported it, just after 10pm, so why was nothing done and Gerry, Matthew not mentioned by reception?
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Gerry's statement
The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up.
That seems to be at odds with the statements of other Tapas members, who said she was not away for very long.
Perhaps it just felt like a very long time to Gerry.
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That seems to be at odds with the statements of other Tapas members, who said she was not away for very long.
Perhaps it just felt like a very long time to Gerry.
She searched the Apartment, so obviously not as fast as usual getting back.
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No certain people are not telling the truth more like. I wonder who >@@(*&)
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She searched the Apartment, so obviously not as fast as usual getting back.
What do you mean 'as usual' - she had never been before.
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What do you mean 'as usual' - she had never been before.
Longer than it would usually/normally take to check the children.....By whoever
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In the hour and a half they were at the tapas restaurant they bettered the half hourly check so common in hotels and holiday camps at the time.
8.30/35 they arrived
9,00 Matt did an auditory check at the window (same as holiday camps did)
9.05 Gerry did a visual check
9.30/35 Matt did a visual check but he didn't enter the room to check Madeleine. Madeleines bed was round the corner.
10.00 Kate found Madeleine missing and raised the alarm
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In the hour and a half they were at the tapas restaurant they bettered the half hourly check so common in hotels and holiday camps at the time.
8.30/35 they arrived
9,00 Matt did an auditory check at the window (same as holiday camps did)
9.05 Gerry did a visual check
9.30/35 Matt did a visual check but he didn't enter the room to check Madeleine. Madeleines bed was round the corner.
10.00 Kate found Madeleine missing and raised the alarm
..........except for the apartment being unlocked and open to the street, of course...........which meant that unlike the "holiday camp" whose service you feel they "bettered", Matt could have been "auditory checking" an apartment minus Madeleine.
Madeleine was actually seen by her checkers only once during the evening she went missing from an unlocked apartment and yet you persist in touting her care as somehow "better" in comparison with secured premises in enclosed sites.
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In the hour and a half they were at the tapas restaurant they bettered the half hourly check so common in hotels and holiday camps at the time.
8.30/35 they arrived
9,00 Matt did an auditory check at the window (same as holiday camps did)
9.05 Gerry did a visual check
9.30/35 Matt did a visual check but he didn't enter the room to check Madeleine. Madeleines bed was round the corner.
10.00 Kate found Madeleine missing and raised the alarm
Read the files and get back to me when you find Gerry's whereabouts from 10 to 10.10. You won't find Smithman if you're working from an incorrect timeline. Luckily SY have said that the Timeline is Crucial.
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..........except for the apartment being unlocked and open to the street, of course...........which meant that unlike the "holiday camp" whose service you feel they "bettered", Matt could have been "auditory checking" an apartment minus Madeleine.
Madeleine was actually seen by her checkers only once during the evening she went missing from an unlocked apartment and yet you persist in touting her care as somehow "better" in comparison with secured premises in enclosed sites.
I don't think anyone is safe even in an enclosed site with security nowadays
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135966/Man-quizzed-holiday-camp-sex-attacks.html
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I don't think anyone is safe even in an enclosed site with security nowadays
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135966/Man-quizzed-holiday-camp-sex-attacks.html
Possibly not but much less safe if left unattended for long periods of time in an unlocked one.
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I don't think anyone is safe even in an enclosed site with security nowadays
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135966/Man-quizzed-holiday-camp-sex-attacks.html
That`s beside the point as to the alleged superiority of the McCann childcare service and the number of times Madeleine was actually seen on the night she disappeared from her unlocked apartment.
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That seems to be at odds with the statements of other Tapas members, who said she was not away for very long.
Perhaps it just felt like a very long time to Gerry.
Agreed. I don't know what Gerry is going on about. Probably trying to waste up more precious time being at the alibi oops sorry tapas bar - every second counts. From her book:
"I ran into the kitchen, throwing open all the cupboard doors, into our bedroom, searching the wardrobes, in and out of the bathroom, all within about fifteen seconds, before hurtling out through the patio doors and down towards Gerry and our friends."
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Agreed. I don't know what Gerry is going on about. Probably trying to waste up more precious time - every second counts. From her book:
"I ran into the kitchen, throwing open all the cupboard doors, into our bedroom, searching the wardrobes, in and out of the bathroom, all within about fifteen seconds[/b], before hurtling out through the patio doors and down towards Gerry and our friends."
And there we have it, from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
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Possibly not but much less safe if left unattended for long periods of time in an unlocked one.
I agree and I would never leave children alone in a house, holiday home or Butlins. It was wrong and that's what Kate was shouting about when Mrs Fenn heard her "We should have been here", "we let her down" she was screaming.
They know that they have done wrong.
Why they did? I do not know, but I do know they must be suffering for it now.
I hope this is a lesson to any parents who are thinking its alright to leave their children to go and join
their friends to socialise.
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I agree and I would never leave children alone in a house, holiday home or Butlins. It was wrong and that's what Kate was shouting about when Mrs Fenn heard her "We should have been here", "we let her down" she was screaming.
They know that they have done wrong.
Why they did? I do not know, but I do know they must be suffering for it now.
I hope this is a lesson to any parents who are thinking its alright to leave their children to go and join
their friends to socialise.
Did she say that ? I've not heard that before.
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Did she say that ? I've not heard that before.
Mrs Fenn said something similar but this is Fiona's statement
Reply
“Awful, erm, I’ve never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I’ve seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn’t know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down. We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don’t think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we’re all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t, they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn’t functioning”.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post459.html#p459
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Mrs Fenn ...Part of:-
the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out “we have let her down” which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post440.html#p440
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I agree and I would never leave children alone in a house, holiday home or Butlins. It was wrong and that's what Kate was shouting about when Mrs Fenn heard her "We should have been here", "we let her down" she was screaming.
They know that they have done wrong.
Why they did? I do not know, but I do know they must be suffering for it now.
I hope this is a lesson to any parents who are thinking its alright to leave their children to go and join
their friends to socialise.
Well, it's not a lesson the McCanns have sought to teach, is it ?
Not once have they said ... "We were wrong, in principle, to leave our infants alone and vulnerable that night. Please don't do as we did"
Instead, they have justified their decisions and insisted that their childcare provisions were 'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'
If other parents have been influenced into being more vigliant and less cavalier following this case it won't be because the McCanns have advised them to
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Witnesses Balu and Berry were on an outdoor first floor balcony and only became aware of the emergency when they heard and saw the father searching and shouting her name below.
The location of this balcony is important
If the balcony is very close to 5A then the people on balcony would have noticed searching below within a few minutes of the alarm.
IOn the other hand f the balcony is a kilometre away then you could reasonably claim it might have been something like 20 minutes before the people on balcony noticed searching below.
Maybe if I post an aerial photo of exact balcony location it will be helpful to show how very unlikely it is that a huge 15 or 20 minute gap occurred between alarm and balcony people seeing searching below..... >@@(*&)
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Witnesses Balu and Berry were on an outdoor first floor balcony and only became aware of the emergency when they heard and saw the father searching and shouting her name below.
The location of this balcony is important
If the balcony is very close to 5A then the people on balcony would have noticed searching below within a few minutes of the alarm.
IOn the other hand f the balcony is a kilometre away then you could reasonably claim it might have been something like 20 minutes before the people on balcony noticed searching below.
Maybe if I post an aerial photo of exact balcony location it will be helpful to show how very unlikely it is that a huge 15 or 20 minute gap occurred between alarm and balcony people seeing searching below..... >@@(*&)
It has been noted more than once that Russell O'Brien resembles Gerry.
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Witnesses Balu and Berry were on an outdoor first floor balcony and only became aware of the emergency when they heard and saw the father searching and shouting her name below.
The location of this balcony is important
If the balcony is very close to 5A then the people on balcony would have noticed searching below within a few minutes of the alarm.
IOn the other hand f the balcony is a kilometre away then you could reasonably claim it might have been something like 20 minutes before the people on balcony noticed searching below.
Maybe if I post an aerial photo of exact balcony location it will be helpful to show how very unlikely it is that a huge 15 or 20 minute gap occurred between alarm and balcony people seeing searching below..... >@@(*&)
Green: balcony from which witnesses saw father searching and shouting childs name.
Yellow: apartment 5A.
Blue: Tapas area entrance
Purple: Tapas restuarant
click image to enlarge
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Witnesses Balu and Berry were on an outdoor first floor balcony and only became aware of the emergency when they heard and saw the father searching and shouting her name below.
The location of this balcony is important
If the balcony is very close to 5A then the people on balcony would have noticed searching below within a few minutes of the alarm.
IOn the other hand f the balcony is a kilometre away then you could reasonably claim it might have been something like 20 minutes before the people on balcony noticed searching below.
Maybe if I post an aerial photo of exact balcony location it will be helpful to show how very unlikely it is that a huge 15 or 20 minute gap occurred between alarm and balcony people seeing searching below..... >@@(*&)
Gerry's route - you could say he did a circle. 10.15 is the time out there. They did hear Gerry shouting for Madeleine from Berry's balcony. They came down and talked to Gerry and joined in with the search. We can work this out easily from other statements. After talking with them he is finishing his circle and is coming back to 5A. Let me show you:
10 - 10.08 - Diane Webster in 5A. - No Gerry
10.10 - Fiona Payne arrives at 5A - No Gerry
10.20 Emma Knight arrives at 5A - No Gerry
10.25 Gerry comes inside 5A - Gerry is Here!
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I know Gerry's route - you could say he did a circle. 10.15 is the time out there. They did hear Gerry shouting from Berry's balcony. They came down and talked to Gerry and joined in the search. We can work this out easily from other statements. Let me show you:
10 - 10.08 - Diane Webster in 5A. - No Gerry
10.10 - Fiona Payne arrives at 5A - No Gerry
10.20 Emma Knight arrives at 5A - No Gerry
10.25 Gerry comes inside 5A - Gerry is Here!
So are you claiming that over 15 minutes elapsed from the alarm until the people on a first floor balcony, closer to 5A than the tapas restuarant, saw and heard the first searcher to pass below their balcony?
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So are you claiming that over 15 minutes elapsed from the alarm until the people on a first floor balcony, closer to 5A than the tapas restuarant, saw and heard the first searcher to pass below their balcony?
Ask Birch how he got the time - writing letters to Carter Ruck with the info trying to dig Murat's place. Birch somehow got hold of the time 10.15 that he was first spotted by Berry/Balu. That's at the end of his circle coming from Murat's direction. It works out with my theory. 15 minutes to do the circle i.e. 10 - 10.15. After talking to Berry/Balu not long after that he is spotted coming into 5A.
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BTW an ancillary result:
The searcher, whom witness Mrs Carpenter thought she might have heard shouting the childs name,was IMO the father. She heard the same shouting of childs name as heard by the people on a block 6 balcony. The C family must have left restuarant a little later than they recalled.
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Ask Birch how he got the time - writing letters to Carter Ruck with the info trying to dig Murat's place. Birch somehow got hold of the time 10.15 that he was first spotted by Berry/Balu. That's at the end of his circle coming from Murat's direction. It works out with my theory. 15 minutes to do the circle i.e. 10 - 10.15.
If your theory critically depends on that source there is nothing I can do to help.
I posted the balcony location and made a reasonable point that your 10:15 time for sighting from balcony may be far too late
Was expecting a reasonable defence from your theory (rather than just blaming it on a ridiculously poor source).
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Matt didn't see Gerry again until about 10.35-40 when the police were contacted and logged at 10.41pm.
Matt going to the Millennium Restaurant would've passed Berry's apartment but this would have been 10.20 estimate time.
10.10pm
"I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn't in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the restaurant, so we'd only been at the initial welcoming, that was the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because the food wasn't great there, it wasn't quite up to the MARK WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that's why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she'd have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well." (MO)
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If your theory critically depends on that source there is nothing I can do to help.
I posted the balcony location and made a reasonable point that your 10:15 time for sighting from balcony may be far too late
Was expecting a reasonable defence from your theory (rather than just blaming it on a ridiculously poor source).
Thanks I will come back to this tomorrow. I've had enough posts for one day.
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Photo showing the exact balcony where the witnesses were (green cross)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/shotcut1-x.jpg)
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It has been noted more than once that Russell O'Brien resembles Gerry.
oh does he? I hadn't noticed. @)(++(*
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Green: balcony from which witnesses saw father searching and shouting childs name.
Yellow: apartment 5A.
Blue: Tapas area entrance
Purple: Tapas restuarant
click image to enlarge
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3629.0;attach=3687;image)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/shotcut1-x.jpg)
Well done Pegasus. That shows all this talk about Gerry not searching is rubbish. I wonder how far afield he went?
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Well done Pegasus. That shows all this talk about Gerry not searching is rubbish. I wonder how far afield he went?
probably to the beach and back.
8**8:/:
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IMO times recalled in retrospect by many witnesses may be accidentally inaccurate. IMO the C family left tapas after KM left tapas. IMO the C family had only just crossed road when KM ran back to tapas. IMO Mrs C heard the same shouting of child's name as the the witnesses on a block 6 balcony heard and saw. IMO this is likely to be at most 4 minutes after alarm, probably less.
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The times have NEVER been clarified.
For this reason, the McCann was NEVER ruled out.
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Well done Pegasus. That shows all this talk about Gerry not searching is rubbish. I wonder how far afield he went?
Dont thank me, thank Mr Amaral's team for collecting these statements.
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Dont thank me, thank Mr Amaral's team for collecting these statements.
That is par for the course Pegasus. That is what police do. I have nothing against the ordinary cop in PdL. They worked hard.
You found the statement . and produced the images.
Well done
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SC statement:
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals".
Read that carefully, it indicates that the C family left tapas after KM left tapas.
Which means IMO that Mrs C heard the same searching and calling of child's name as did the witnesses on a balcony.
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SC statement:
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals".
Read that carefully, it indicates that the C family left tapas after KM left tapas.
Which means IMO that Mrs C heard the same searching and calling of child's name as did the witnesses on a balcony.
Agreed that it was probably Kate she heard on her check before she raised the alarm.
Thanks for the pic - regarding Berry's balcony - there's 2 exits Gerry could have used coming from the night crèche direction. The path that exits underneath Berry's balcony/car park opposite tapas bar - that's the short cut path route they used to take Madeleine or the north exit which takes you out by Murat's place. They may have heard Gerry shouting for Madeleine on the path - which exit he used is important - there's only 2 as I've just explained.
1. West Path Exit underneath Berry's balcony / car park
or
2. North Path Exit that comes out near to Murat's house
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Agreed that it was probably Kate she heard on her check before she raised the alarm.
Thanks for the pic - regarding Berry's balcony - there's 2 exits Gerry could have used coming from the night crèche direction. The path that exits underneath Berry's balcony/car park opposite tapas bar - that's the short cut path route they used to take Madeleine or the north exit which takes you out by Murat's place. They may have heard Gerry shouting for Madeleine on the path - which exit he used is important - there's only 2 as I've just explained.
1. West Path Exit underneath Berry's balcony / car park
or
2. North Path Exit that comes out near to Murat's house
How many minutes from the alarm, until the sighting from balcony, maybe 15 minutes in your theory?
Are you saying the people on that balcony were unaware of the entire first 15 minutes of the search below?
The balcony is even closer to 5A than tapas is.
IMO the peeps on balcony saw and heard the first searcher below (GM) about 2 or 3 minutes after the alarm.
I dont see how you can make failing to see and hear searchers for 15 minutes work.
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How many minutes from the alarm, until the sighting from balcony, maybe 15 minutes in your theory?
Are you saying the people on that balcony were unaware of the entire first 15 minutes of the search below?
The balcony is even closer to 5A than tapas is.
IMO the peeps on balcony saw and heard the first searcher below (GM) about 2 or 3 minutes after the alarm.
I dont see how you can make failing to see and hear searchers for 15 minutes work.
Their first statements aren't in the files so it's all speculation until we read them. All the details from 10pm onwards are in them. All I have is that 10.15 sighting of GM by them re Birch Digging for Madeleine info. Contact him to see where he got the info. I presume he somehow got the time from the missing first statements?
They all went searching around G4/G5, tapas area, tennis courts, Baptista supermarket first. Then at 10.10 Matt went to reception to phone police.
Yes 15 minutes is a good estimate to complete the circle. Could do it in 10 but it depends on other factors.
Did you notice the map open on the table in 5A Crime Scene pics?
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SC statement:
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals".
Read that carefully, it indicates that the C family left tapas after KM left tapas.
Which means IMO that Mrs C heard the same searching and calling of child's name as did the witnesses on a balcony.
I do not see that at all Pegasus. How do you get that Kate left the table before the Carpenter Family?
You could not have concluded that from the sentences you show.
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@pathfinder The source, which you are refering to yet again, lies states that the distance from where GM was seen from the balcony, to Liliana garden is "under 20 metres". I am stating it is about 60 metres.
Put it this way round, if your source is credible then I am lying. BTW what distance did you measure? >@@(*&)
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@pathfinder The source, which you are refering to yet again, lies states that the distance from where GM was seen from the balcony, to Liliana garden is "under 20 metres". I am stating it is about 60 metres.
Put it this way round, if your source is credible then I am lying. BTW what distance did you measure? >@@(*&)
Can they see Murat's house from the balcony?
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I do not see that at all Pegasus. How do you get that Kate left the table before the Carpenter Family?
You could not have concluded that from the sentences you show.
Talking about the evening of 3rd May, witness SC says;
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals".
The 7th word indicates that SC and family were still at tapas when KM left the table
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Can they see Murat's house from the balcony?
Certainly not.
Here is another photo of balcony from which at least 2 witnesses heard and saw GM searching.
IMO because this is very close to 5A this can only have been within the very first few minutes after the alarm.
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Talking about the evening of 3rd May, witness SC says;
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals".
The 7th word indicates that SC and family were still at tapas when KM left the table
I understand what you are saying now, Pegasus.
But they quite regularly ate in the tapas restaurant, didn't they ? Both parties.
How can you be sure that Stephen was not generalizing, remembering what happened other nights?
How can you be sure that Kate wasn't going to adjust her make up, or popping to the loo?
I think that you might be taking that statement too literally, but I do understand what you are saying tho.
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I understand what you are saying now, Pegasus.
But they quite regularly ate in the tapas restaurant, didn't they ? Both parties.
How can you be sure that Stephen was not generalizing, remembering what happened other nights?
How can you be sure that Kate wasn't going to adjust her make up, or popping to the loo?
I think that you might be taking that statement too literally, but I do understand what you are saying tho.
The main proof is the recollection by SC's wife, that during the the walk home she heard a searcher shouting the childs name.
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Certainly not.
Thanks. We will have to go through the rog interviews for where they were searching.
Russell O'Brien
1578 “’We searched the cul-de-sac area’?”
Reply “Erm, which is actually the passageway, I think, erm, when I said ‘cul-de-sac’, erm, I was referring to the fact that, although we’d never been along it in that direction, you can’t get out at the other side of the complex from the passageway that separates the pool from patio sides of the apartments. But we searched down there and we done the adjacent gardens”.
1578 “So we need to describe ‘the cul-de-sac area’ as?”
Reply “As the ‘passage’, well there, there was, erm, ‘the passageway’. Erm, and then the last bit says ‘Shopping Centre and tennis courts’ there, that was actually on the, the sort of second wave of searching that I did. Erm, so after we searched immediately around the, the complex, erm, and we hadn’t found her, I then went, I think around the back, or the front really, where the car park and the apartments are, to the main road, dropping down into the, into the town centre, erm, I forget the name of it, and went down round the back of the tennis courts, looking in there, round the back of the Baptista Supermarket where there’s a car park area and a bit of derelict ground, erm, and then into the Shopping Centre, which is the bottom two or three floors of a of a relatively large building just down the hill. Erm, so that is a separate, erm, sort of search, after coming back to the foot of the apartment and clarifying that, that Madeleine hadn’t been found in the immediate vicinity”.
1578 “So after coming back to the foot of the apartment?”
Reply “Yeah, we then went on separate searches further from the apartment and mine involved the front, and by that, I mean the car park side of the apartment and then down the hill towards the town centre, erm, and along there looking through fences, into the complex and the tennis courts, the back of the Supermarket and the derelict ground adjacent to that and the shopping, the lower echelons of this building which is a small, a small precinct”.
1578 “Sorry, back of the tennis courts?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1578 “Back of?”
Reply “The back of the Supermarket and then into the, the small, slightly old, erm, Shopping Centre, which goes over one or two floors”.
1578 “Yeah”.
Reply “Erm, it’s actually the day I met, ‘On the way back from the Shopping Centre’, in the next paragraph, I met Dave and he was running down the hill with a, with, you know, sort of panic in his eyes, saying ‘This is really bad, this is bad, they haven’t found her’. There was obviously, a number of minutes had passed by this point, while we were looking individually”.
1578 “So ‘I met Dave on the return’?”
Reply “On the return”.
1578 “’On my return’?”
Reply “Heading back towards the, the, erm, the Super, well near the Baptista Supermarket, just down from there, erm, met Dave and it was him that said to me ‘This is bad. This is really bad. They haven’t found her. She’s missing’”.
1578 “And he said?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘This is really’, you know, He said ‘This is really bad, they haven’t found her’’”.
1578 “’This is bad, this is really bad, they’ve not found her’?”
Reply “Yeah, or, you know, sort of words very similar to that. The, erm, the next bit is, erm, sort of correct but relatively brief compared to what we discussed yesterday. Erm, it said, erm, there was then Dave, Matt and myself shortly after this point swept down the hill towards the beach”.
1578 “So ‘we’ needs to be changed with ‘Dave, Matt and?”
Reply “’Dave, Matt and myself’, yeah”.
1578 “’Searched down towards the beach area towards the Ocean Club’?”
Reply “Erm, well it’s, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s sort of later, no, it’s a bit misleading really. Erm, we actually dropped down, almost directly, as the roads would take you to the beach”.
1578 “So ‘We searched down towards the beach area’?”
Reply “Yeah, you can remove ‘towards the Ocean Club’”.
1578 “And we can remove ‘towards the Ocean Club’?”
Reply “And the addition there was what we described, that Matt searched the, the beach immediately in front of where we came down at, which would be the sort of west, yeah, the western end of the beach, as far as, erm, Matt and Dave came into, erm, the area in between, and I went over towards the eastern part of the beach, erm, predominantly walking down the, the beachfront away from”.
1578 “Sorry, just repeat that again for me please. Matt searched?”
Reply “Matt searched, yeah, well, what would be the sort of west, he, where, where we came out we were sort of the west end of the, the beach anyway and he stayed and searched the rocks and the, the surrounding immediately there”.
1578 “’Matt searched west end of beach’?”
Reply “Yeah, Dave took a sort of central portion of it and I went right over towards the sort of the, the main sandy area of the beach, erm”.
1578 “’And I went over to’?”
Reply “Sort of on the west, well the eastern part of the beach”.
1578 “’Main sandy part of beach’?”
Reply “Yeah, and dropped down to the waterline because it was quite easy to see back towards the town, because it was, there was street lighting, erm, but you couldn’t, certainly from further in, you couldn’t see if, you couldn’t see the beachfront terribly well. And there was quite a lot of beach in that direction, so I went a certain amount, I didn’t, I didn’t go all the way over to, erm, I think it’s called Black Rock, but I got to a certain point and thought, you know, it’s actually, you know, well away from the beach (inaudible), turned back and, erm, on the return journey, this was when I bumped into, erm, somebody who, who, who was already aware that someone was missing. I think, I don’t, I don’t remember her necessarily being, erm, definitely somebody I recognised form MARK WARNER, but she was an English woman in her, in her early or mid-twenties, fair or blonde’ish sort of hair, erm, I’d asked her if she’d seen, erm, you know, a little girl wandering around and, you know, I can’t remember what she said, but she was already aware that somebody was missing, so clearly she’d either bumped into Dave or somebody else searching around higher up in the town. Erm, and then, before we kind of rejoin here, I sort, I sort of zigzagged back up through some of the roads, such that you, I would have covered a sort of triangle, from the apartment down to the beach, along the beach a little bit, and then, and then sort of heading back up to the starting point, over, over a number of minutes, I mean, it was certainly not every road or every garden, but, you know, just, as I headed back I tried to take in a number of, a number of roads and entrances just to see if there was anything there. And during the course of this I’d spoken to a few people, there weren’t, there weren’t masses of people around actually and, erm, you know, a couple of holidaymakers and I can, I can remember speaking to some relatively elderly, erm, Portuguese people who were just walking along near the front at one point, but, erm, and the only other person I spoke to was, I presume, a Bar owner in that, in the Shopping Centre, and there was just one other, erm, elderly Portuguese man in there having a drink, erm, and they just sort of shrugged and, so. Those are the kind of people that we discussed the other day who I met during that search. Erm, and then, then it picks up back here really, where it says ‘We went back to five ‘A’, it was clear that panic was setting in on Gerry’ and certainly, certainly this was my first, erm, experience of, of, erm, of the anguish that Gerry was in, you know”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “So, I don’t know whether this, at this point here was where Gerry was on the phone.
"I did an immediate search err we then doubled back, we split up again, I searched the, round the back of the tennis courts, down that road, supermarket, shopping centre, met up with Dave at some point near that, found out that we’d still not, still not been met. I think probably at that point is when I went back to see Jane and, and, and found out what she, what she, what she said, and then me, Dave and Matt went down to the water front, split up on the beach, met a few, you know asked a few people as we were going round what’s going on, swept back up from the beach, err back to the, back to the apartment then spent a fair amount of time on there both just talking to people err we got photographs there, there was some attempts to, to get, you know contact with consulate and so on and so forth."
"Err then, it’s hard to get it all back in, then we at some stage there I will have gone into the flat, seen Gerry err briefly and I just lingered around inside the flat feeling fairly useless and at some point I made the decision, I’m going to go and do another search you know I can’t be just standing around now, nothing seems to be happening, went off, searched that sort of northern part over towards Millennium and the accompanying roads and flats just below it, came back and I think at this point the, the PJ had either arrived or shortly after arrived err and then as we discussed made a brief timeline, sat in on the, the early part of the discussion where Dave was asking the PJ to release the information, you know he was saying something get it on the radio, shouldn’t there be more people here, blah, blah and then I think when Jane came in I think perhaps we saw the others housekeeper I’m not sure but then somebody offered to help with translation err then I left, went back to the flat err and then the rest of the night itself was, was largely in and around the flats err at some point Rachael making the call to her friend."
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Thanks. We will have to go through the rog interviews for where they were searching.
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I already posted, from the files, a British CIU analyst on Mr Amarals team stating clearly it was GM whom the witnesses heard and saw searching and shouting the childs name.
It is highly likely the witnesses are correct in their identification, because they not only heard and saw him, but also went down from the balcony and spoke with him.
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I already posted, from the files, a British CIU analyst on Mr Amarals team stating clearly it was GM whom the witnesses heard and saw searching and shouting the childs name.It is highly likely the witnesses are correct in their identification, because they not only heard and saw him, but also went down from the balcony and spoke with him.
Thankyou for trying to always post the facts. Refreshing.
So Amarals team has confirmed that witnesses heard and saw Gerry shouting. They went and talked to him
So we KNOW of three witnesses who saw Gerry searching. The myths that he did not search can be put to bed.
The time when Jeronimo is somewhat muddled. He is good on observation but not on time. However it can be fixed as roughly between 10pm and 10.05 ish from Diane Websters statement.
Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes,[/b] then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN.
Do we know the time the other guys saw Gerry, please pegasus?
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I already posted, from the files, a British CIU analyst on Mr Amarals team stating clearly it was GM whom the witnesses heard and saw searching and shouting the childs name.
It is highly likely the witnesses are correct in their identification, because they not only heard and saw him, but also went down from the balcony and spoke with him.
We don't have a confirmed time re Berry/Balu. Did Gerry say he went to G6 car park to check after the alarm was first raised? Nope only one tapas staff employee said they saw him searching in the tapas/pool area but one of the waiters at the Millennium said the McCann's had been having breakfast there every morning LOL.
And this confirms how early Kate left the table before the McCann's claim 10pm or 10.03 in Gerry's case. There were people getting confused between Russell and Gerry.
"The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child." (JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA - Waiter)
Russell returned at 9.45 so Kate seems to have gone at 9.50 (not 10pm) as Russell and Matt both said.
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So Amarals team has confirmed that witnesses heard and saw Gerry shouting.
Yes a Brit expert (like Harrison and Grime) states in files it was GM whom the balcony witnesses saw and heard searching - - - Absolutely genuinely searching IMO.
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.... Kate seems to have gone at 9.50 ...
I agree it is possible the alarm was earlier than 10pm.
However my point is that if we forget clocks and just take themoment the 7 rushing adults arrived back at the street gate, IMO within maximum 3 minutes of that street gate arrival, inevitably one those adults would search beneath 606 balcony.
Why? Because it is so close to 5A. The buildings 5 and 6 are next-door to each other. Unless you are suggesting a selective search conspiracy like "look everyone, lets search everywhere except around that bullding next door, lets all agree to delay searching around that next-door building until after 20 minutes" ?
>@@(*&)
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To illustrate how close this balcony is:
The tapas reception entrance is visible.
The minority east-side-of-road version of chat location is visible.
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[So we KNOW of three witnesses who saw Gerry searching. The myths that he did not search can be put to bed. ]
Sadie, the whole point of this thread is where Gerry was between 10 to 10.10pm? It still hasn't been answered. One waiter claims to have seen him searching the tapas area but others don't mention seeing Gerry only David and Matt. One waiter at the Millennium said the McCann's had breakfast there every morning which is not true! Anyway Dianne left the table at around 10pm and they had finished searching that area by that time. The only ones confirmed are Neil Berry and Raj Balu but their first statements are missing from the files and somehow Birch got a time of 10.15 when they first spot Gerry (unconfirmed!). I don't think you'll find anyone who seen him in that time period 8(0(*
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[So we KNOW of three witnesses who saw Gerry searching. The myths that he did not search can be put to bed. ]
Sadie, the whole point of this thread is where Gerry was between 10 to 10.10pm? It still hasn't been answered. One waiter claims to have seen him searching the tapas area but others don't mention Gerry only David and Matt. One waiter at the Millennium said the McCann's had breakfast there every morning which is not true! Anyway Dianne left the table at around 10pm and they had finished searching that area by that time. I don't think you'll find anyone who seen him in this time period 8(0(*
Kate sat on tv and said they did not physically search.
Also, I used to be a waitress and on a busy night where you have a big drinking table (such as the Tapas Crew) you are literally running and in NO position to swear where your customers are at any particular time unless you are physically standing over them with one eye on the clock.
Ridiculous.
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Kate sat on tv and said they did not physically search.
Also, I used to be a waitress and on a busy night where you have a big drinking table (such as the Tapas Crew) you are literally running and in NO position to swear where your customers are at any particular time unless you are physically standing over them with one eye on the clock.
Ridiculous.
Gerry was out and about and so quick that nobody noticed him gone.
"Gerry was Scotland's under-19 1500 metres and Scottish universities 800 metres champion. He was also a skilled footballer and could have turned professional but opted to go to university instead."
"Kate and Gerry McCann were planning to try for another baby before Madeleine went missing, Kate's dad said yesterday."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kate-and-gerry-were-talking-about-a-new-506057 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kate-and-gerry-were-talking-about-a-new-506057)
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[So we KNOW of three witnesses who saw Gerry searching. The myths that he did not search can be put to bed. ]
Sadie, the whole point of this thread is where Gerry was between 10 to 10.10pm? It still hasn't been answered. One waiter claims to have seen him searching the tapas area but others don't mention seeing Gerry only David and Matt. One waiter at the Millennium said the McCann's had breakfast there every morning which is not true! Anyway Dianne left the table at around 10pm and they had finished searching that area by that time. The only ones confirmed are Neil Berry and Raj Balu but their first statements are missing from the files and somehow Birch got a time of 10.15 when they first spot Gerry (unconfirmed!). I don't think you'll find anyone who seen him in that time period 8(0(*
No that is wrong. Diane left the table at about 10.05 or a little later. She had spoken to Gerry as he searched. I am doing this from memory but am confident that you will find I am right.
Jeronomos times are all over the place but he saw Gerry searching whilst Daine was still there on her own. So it must have been between about 10pm and say 10.07pm.
Others went into the tapas area and searched too. From memory, I think that it was Matt and Russell, but am happy to be corrected. That must have been between 10.05 and 10.10, cos IIRC Matt left straight after that to run to the main Reception.
My bet is that every single one of them searched the Tapas garden area and the pools, but it just isn't mentioned in any of the statements.
My bet is that they all searched EVERYWHERE close by, possibly several times ... but it just aint mentioned.
Well I prefer words from the mouth of witnesses, rather than from a third party. So Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements are missing are they? Strange cos Carolyn Carpenters statement is missing too. Hmmm? >@@(*&)
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[.... moderated abuse ...]
Kate is on record having admitted they did not search.
The first interview with Jane Hill from the BBC - 25 May 2007, Kate admits never actually 'physically searching' for Madeleine
Jane Hill: "I met people who didn't go to work for more than a week because everyday they were down on the beach, searching the streets. Did you, as a mother Kate, just sometimes think 'I've got to go and be out there with them. I want to go and just physically look as well."
Kate: (Pause) I mean, I did. Errm... (Long Pause) Errm, we'd been working really hard really. Apart... I mean, the first 48 hours, as Gerry said, are incredibly difficult and we were almost non-functioning, I'd say, errm, but after that you get strength from somewhere. We've certainly had loads of support and that's given us strength and its been able to make us focus really so we have actually, in our own way, it might not be physically searching but we've been working really hard and doing absolutely everything we can really to get Madeleine back."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id123.html
She did NOT say she never searched. Do NOT twist her words. It is underhand to do so
It was in one of the statements, Fionas Rog, I think, that Fiona went to be with Kate and Kate took the opportunity to go out and search. She did the Baptista Supermarket stretch, which probably included the little side roads radiating off. I seem to remember thta she also ahd a look around the car park at the front. According to Fiona, Kate was hardly functioning
She also went out with Gerry before first light on the morning afterwards... 5 -6 am That is also included in either Fionas or Rachels statement
Spinning isn't the way forward.
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No that is wrong. Diane left the table at about 10.05 or a little later. She had spoken to Gerry as he searched. I am doing this from memory but am confident that you will find I am right.
Jeronomos times are all over the place but he saw Gerry searching whilst Daine was still there on her own. So it must have been between about 10pm and say 10.07pm.
Others went into the tapas area and searched too. From memory, I think that it was Matt and Russell, but am happy to be corrected. That must have been between 10.05 and 10.10, cos IIRC Matt left straight after that to run to the main Reception.
My bet is that every single one of them searched the Tapas garden area and the pools, but it just isn't mentioned in any of the statements.
My bet is that they all searched EVERYWHERE close by, possibly several times ... but it just aint mentioned.
Well I prefer words from the mouth of witnesses, rather than from a third party. So Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements are missing are they? Strange cos Carolyn Carpenters statement is missing too. Hmmm? >@@(*&)
Dianne got the time wrong. She didn't know the time she guessed.
Dianne Webster Rog Interview
"4078 “After Evie had been poorly, do you know any, have you any idea what time that was? Presumably it’s, you say that you assume Russell got back to the table (inaudible).”
Reply “Well I mean Russell, by the time Russell had got back to the table err he’d err they’d err they’d cooked another steak for him, it didn’t take very long and he literally I suppose just had about two bites of it when err Kate came running, so that must have been about, I don’t know, getting on for ten o’ clock I would imagine because, well just working out the time that we had our starters and our main course and we were all finished our main course, it was only Russell err that had his to eat. We would have been waiting normally for him to finish that and order desert.
Russell got back to the table at 9.45. He waited 5 minutes for his reheated steak. Kate came running back not long after. This is 9.55 at the very latest. Dianne waits at the table for 5 minutes then goes to 5A at 10pm. You're working from an incorrect timeline.
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The main proof is the recollection by SC's wife, that during the the walk home she heard a searcher shouting the childs name.
Pegasus, I wanted you to be here when I posted this, but maybe you are not coming in tonight?
I would like to tackle the Maria problem mentioned earlier.
NB. Please remember this was before the statements were translated and available in the UK. and Maria was a PT woman who spoke perfect English. Maria was translating PT to English
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
31 to 56 Transcription of witness statement of Stephen Carpenter (holidaymaker at the same resort as the Tapas group) 2008.04.21
3-Cartas Rogatorias File 3 Pages 31 - 56
When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".
OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.
Having reread the above statement, I see that in one place, Stephen C said ".My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning".
I have no reason to disbelieve Maria; she seemed entirely honest. Knowing that in England we have many words where in other Countries they only use one word, which is therefore less precise, I persisted and asked her, was it shouted, spoken or whispered?
Maybe Maria's eyes alighted on the phrase "My wife only vaguely remembers hearing" and on consideration of the "only vaguely" it seemed to her more likely whispered or murmured, rather than shouted.
I have repeated Maria's interpretation many times including at least 3 times on this forum before.
Because the statement had not been translated into English, and was not available over here at the time, I was not aware of Stephens full statement. I have skim read Stephens statement more recently, so my eyes must have missed the relevant part
I had no idea at that time that in Stephens statement he specified "My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine"
In lieu of having read the statement again it seems Maria, bless her, got her translation wrong. According to Stephen C. it should have been "called"
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I thought a great deal about what you said about SC wife "hearing the sound of a searcher calling Madeleines name."
I should point out that we dont know exactly who was calling. Anyway, I strained my eyes and read around a bit
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
31 to 56 Transcription of witness statement of Stephen Carpenter (holidaymaker at the same resort as the Tapas group) 2008.04.21
3-Cartas Rogatorias File 3 Pages 31 - 56
When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".
OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.
1) I would point out, Pegasus, that this statement is third party. It is not from the mouth of Carolyn who did the hearing, but from Stephen her hubby. Facts that are NOT from the actual witness can, through misunderstanding, get altered.
I do not find that satisfactory as evidence of any kind. It would not stand up in Court
2) Also Carolyn Carpenters statement is missing. Why did Amaral, or the PJ, hold that back?
Does it oppose the statement of her husband Stephen in any way? Is her description of hearing "Madeleine Madeleine" different from Stephens? Timewise ... or loudness ?
I cannot understand Carolyn's statement being missing. Can you?
I think that with the third party statement and Carolyn's statement being , for some reason, missing, there is a BIG question mark over this whole scenario
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If witness CC, walking from tapas to her apartment, did hear someone shouting the childs name, I've already suggested that is likely to be the exact same shouting and searcher as witnesses NB and BB heard. This is not a careless guess, it is based on knowing CC route home and working out timings and sound travel.
Moving on to another witness, there was a woman, on her way to pick up her child from creche, who encountered a man shouting the child's name, is it possible she too may have encountered the same searcher as the witnesses above?
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Yes they were out searching before 10pm. Some have been trying to bring the timeline forward to cover for the Smithman sighting - simple but effective if you fall for it. You can get the real and correct timeline from the rog interviews. Some like Dianne didn't know and just guessing the time. And others did know. But Dianne provides great insights by saying Russell only had about two bites of his steak when Kate came running back. This is all very helpful in working out the real timeline.
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Please read reply 121 above. Today at 12:18:30 AM »
Maybe I should have posted tht first cos I think it changes the picture rather
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I take SC statement to be reliable re what his wife CC vaguely recalled hearing.
BTW the C family on way home from tapas walk under the balcony where the other witnesses were sitting.
Seems obvious to me that Mrs C heard exactly the same shouting as the people on the balcony.
IMO she walked under the balcony just a few minutes before GM passed under same balcony shouting the child's name., so she hears the shouting behind her just before arriving back at C family apartment.
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I take SC statement to be reliable re what his wife CC vaguely recalled hearing.
BTW it's definite that the C family on way home from tapas walk under the balcony where the other witnesses were sitting.
Seems obvious to me that Mrs C heard exactly the same shouting as the people on the balcony.
IMO she walked under the balcony just a few minutes before GM passed under same balcony shouting the child's name., so she hears the shouting behind her just before arriving back at C family apartment.
I am surprised. I can say something and my hubby will have it completely changed when he passes it on. He says the same about me when I pass things on. I think most couples are like this
Tbh, I feel a bit disappointed in you; I thought that you were fair minded and would at least have a question mark in your mind... even if it goes against YOUR theory.
I am sure you know that it wouldn't stand up in Court especially with Carolyns statement being missing as well
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.... You might feel perfectly at ease with accepting a non-verifiable claim by an unknown poster on some forum of long ago, but it is not acceptable to present it here as a 'source' of valid information
I am not relying on any such translator or poster. Witnesses hearing someone shouting the child's name is exactly what we would expect to begin very soon after the 7 adults arrived at the street gate of 5A, and IMO the first shouting audible on balcony of NB's apartment would be also the first shouting audible a little further east towards the C family apartment.
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I am not relying on any such translator or poster. Witnesses hearing someone shouting the child's name is exactly what we would expect to begin very soon after the 7 adults arrived at the street gate of 5A, and IMO the first shouting audible on balcony of NB's apartment would be also the first shouting audible a little further east towards the C family apartment.
And that was at what time? Can you remember?
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And that was at what time? Can you remember?
IMO the C family left tapas later than the recalled 9.15/9.30pm.
IMO shouting audible to CC on way home would also be audible to the balcony witnesses.
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And that was at what time? Can you remember?
Pegasus, I have found the time for you that Neil Berrry and Raj Balu heard the commotion.
It was after 10pm. ... soon after by the sound of things.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches.
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Erm, Pathfinder, I think you will find that one of the tapas waiters saw Gerry searching the Tapas garden area at about that time.
I am sorry but I cant read the statements to give you a cite. But I feel sure that someone else will find it
Jeronimo Salcedas, Sadie:
I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
The time stated in that same witness's statement to the PJ is different from the above.
But when he gave his rogatory interview (from which the extract above is taken) the Leicestershire Police officer who took the rogatory statement will certainly have had Mr Salcedas' statement to the Portuguese police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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Jeronimo Salcedas, Sadie:
I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
The time stated in that same witness's statement to the PJ is different from the above.
But when he gave his rogatory interview (from which the extract above is taken) the Leicestershire Police officer who took the rogatory statement will certainly have had Mr Salcedas' statement to the Portuguese police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
Jeronimo was very good on observation but poor on times.
He gave two lots of times, IIRC
1) 21H30 and 22H00
2) 22.20 - ? ( I forget the later time.
THere was a big space in the middle, but he says he saw Gerry searching whilst Diane was still there on her own. She left at 10.05 or soon after (lets guess at 10.07)
As said before Jeronimo was not so good on times but he was good on observation of what went on.
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+
100% Agreed...someone speaks some sense at last
To be more precise, there was a lack of 'sufficient' evidence to charge anyone in the disappearance of Madeleine.
That hasn't changed to date.
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To be more precise, there was a lack of 'sufficient' evidence to charge anyone in the disappearance of Madeleine.
That hasn't changed to date.
Both statements are true and support thr McCanns innicence
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Both statements are true and support thr McCanns innicence
Innocence of what ?
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Innocence of what ?
Anything and everything, of course @)(++(*
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It is quite obvious to me that Madeleine was not found to be missing before 10pm. So some people were mistaken about the times. Even Mr. Smith's timed and dated receipt came into question.
So why hide these first hand statements? Unless it is to confuse Internet Posters. I know what I think. And Sadie isn't far wrong.
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Members are asked to please refrain from posting their own previous posts as quotes. This is spamming.
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Jeronimo was very good on observation but poor on times.
He gave two lots of times, IIRC
1) 21H30 and 22H00
2) 22.20 - ? ( I forget the later time.
THere was a big space in the middle, but he says he saw Gerry searching whilst Diane was still there on her own. She left at 10.05 or soon after (lets guess at 10.07)
As said before Jeronimo was not so good on times but he was good on observation of what went on.
Stop repeating incorrect times! Dianne saw that Russell only had two bites of his steak when Kate came running. This way before 10pm so I don't know where you get 10.05 or 10.07. You'll find the evidence in the witness interviews not by guessing!
"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)
That is Russell! Confirmed he came back at 9.45 as Russell himself said by the waiter that served him his reheated steak. So how did he only have two bites of his steak 15 minutes later at 10pm when Kate came running? It's not possible. He had his steak brought to the table much earlier than 10pm!
"He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)
No Gerry seen in this statement - only David and Matt seen searching the tapas area. All searching this area just before 10pm anyway so it has no bearing on where Gerry was 10 to 10.10?
The 10pm Kate going to check myth should be buried once and for all!
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Stop repeating incorrect times! Dianne saw that Russell only had two bites of his steak when Kate came running. This way before 10pm so I don't know where you get 10.05 or 10.07. You'll find the evidence in the witness interviews not by guessing!
"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)
That is Russell! Confirmed he came back at 9.45 as Russell himself said by the waiter that served him his reheated steak. So how did he only have two bites of his steak 15 minutes later at 10pm when Kate came running? It's not possible. He had his steak brought to the table much earlier than 10pm!
"He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)
No Gerry seen in this statement - only David and Matt seen searching the tapas area. All searching this area just before 10pm anyway so it has no bearing on where Gerry was 10 to 10.10?
From memory so apols in advance if I'm wrong - but I don't think Russell was served his 'reheated' steak. IIRC a fresh steak was cooked for him - which, if cooking it was not commenced until after he had returned to the table, (which seems likely), would have taken longer than merely presenting him with a plate of food which had been kept warm in his absence. IMO
TBH as no-one could be absolutely certain - down to the last second - of the times they did different things - it's a pretty pointless exercise imo.
IMO no way would Gerry have a plan which included being away from the complex disposing of Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - simply because he had no way of knowing in advance what time the police would arrive. It could have been within 5/10 mins of the alarm being raised for all he knew. Would he take such a risk when there were far simpler ways of disposing of a body available to him? Not a chance IMO.
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Stop repeating incorrect times! Dianne saw that Russell only had two bites of his steak when Kate came running. This way before 10pm so I don't know where you get 10.05 or 10.07. You'll find the evidence in the witness interviews not by guessing!
1) No it wasn't. Russell was delayed. Because he and Jane had to share responsibility for looking after his sick daughter, he had only returned to the restauarant at IIRC 9.45. The waiter insisted on cooking him a new steak and that is why he had only taken 2 bites out of it. Preparation and cooking time.
2) IIRC 10.05 ar a little later comes from Diane Websters one statement. It certainly is mentioned in a statement and that can only be Dianes.
"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)
3) That would be Russell with reasons as mentioned above
That is Russell! Confirmed he came back at 9.45 as Russell himself said by the waiter that served him his reheated steak. So how did he only have two bites of his steak 15 minutes later at 10pm when Kate came running? It's not possible. He had his steak brought to the table much earlier than 10pm!
4) It wasn't reheated . Wrong again. A new piece of steak was cooked.
Pls read the statements and absorb facts. Do not spin them. It was a new piece of steak, which had to be fetched, prepared and cooked, then served with presumably hot vegetables. 10 pm for serving thta seems pretty quick to me.
"He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)
No Gerry seen in this statement - only David and Matt seen searching the tapas area. All searching this area just before 10pm anyway so it has no bearing on where Gerry was 10 to 10.10?
Quite right. Nothing about Gerry in Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveiras staement at all.
It was in Jeronimos and Dianes statements IIRC that Gerry was searching frantically ... and came to speak to Diane. She left at about 9.05 or a lttle later. I think one place it was reported that she left at 10.05 - 10.10 and in another statement it said she left at 10.05 or a little after. I amhappy to be corrected on the 10.10 time if I have rememberd incorrectly, but am pretty sure
Not everything is in everybodies statement you know. Some things will not be in anybodies statements, but it doesn't mean they didn't happen
The 10pm Kate going to check myth should be buried once and for all!
Try and get your facts right, old boy ...
That is only a myth made up by people like you, who cant be bothered to get your facts right and are determined to put the boot on with the Mccanns.
I have thouoghly read all the waiters and Tapas group statements, but thanks to you lot keep insisting on cites, my eyesight has deteriorated and I have difficulty reading now. Fortunately I have pretty good recall which beats your "so called facts" into Top Hats
There is absolutely no reason to think that Kate did not go back to 5A at the time she and others in the group stated. At about 10 pm
Another silly myth of yours proved incorrect
As I said, make sure you read all the statements and understand them. Try and get your facts right, there's a good chap
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Dianne Webster...Excerpt:-
to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
PC: "How did she look?”
DW: "Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”
PC: "What did you see when you got there?”
DW: "What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post442.html#p442
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From memory so apols in advance if I'm wrong - but I don't think Russell was served his 'reheated' steak. IIRC a fresh steak was cooked for him - which, if cooking it was not commenced until after he had returned to the table, (which seems likely), would have taken longer than merely presenting him with a plate of food which had been kept warm in his absence. IMO
TBH as no-one could be absolutely certain - down to the last second - of the times they did different things - it's a pretty pointless exercise imo.
IMO no way would Gerry have a plan which included being away from the complex disposing of Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - simply because he had no way of knowing in advance what time the police would arrive. It could have been within 5/10 mins of the alarm being raised for all he knew. Would he take such a risk when there were far simpler ways of disposing of a body available to him? Not a chance IMO.
You got there first 8@??)(
IMO no way would Gerry have a plan which included being away from the complex disposing of Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - simply because he had no way of knowing in advance what time the police would arrive. It could have been within 5/10 mins of the alarm being raised for all he knew. Would he take such a risk when there were far simpler ways of disposing of a body available to him? Not a chance IMO.
Exactly, and would he parade his dead daughter through the streets without any attempt to hide her
Anyone thta thinks that must be stark raving bonkers
That medium height Smithman was not even as tall as the impressively tall Gerry
What a load of twaddle we are hearing.
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Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10? Read the rog interviews from the others. Fiona was doing first searches with Matt, David and Russ. After telling Matt to call the police she goes to see Kate who is alone in 5A. Gerry has vanished like Madeleine. You don't find that unusual?
In the dining room with the candle stick
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Dianne Webster...Excerpt:-
to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
PC: "How did she look?”
DW: "Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”
PC: "What did you see when you got there?”
DW: "What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”
Thanks Anna. (the fastest statement spotter in the west!) Have you got the bit where she states the time she left? It must be in another statement. I think she made three statements in all.
Have to go out now. Loads of things to catch up with.
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If there was any ambiguity as to where Mr McCann was then I am fairly sure that would have been one of the first avenues of the initial investigation and the subsequent review investigation. Basic investigative techniques is to clear both parents or guardians as soon as is possible.
I’ve seen threads like this before where someone questions the timeline to crowbar in a suspicion crudely in the hope that someone will pick it up and run with it. It will be “erroneous and unnecessary” car rides next. Or blue bags, freezers, pet cemeteries, the Fourth Reich, Vatican hit men etc.
Whereas I am a great believer in questioning everything, there are some things that tend to prove resilient to close scrutiny over time and to think that two investigations missed or neglected to establish where the father of a missing child was in the crucial time window she went missing is commendable but absurd.
I think between the statements taken at the time, the follow up statements from witnesses, the review team then going over these with a fine toothed comb it is safe to conclude as arm chair sleuths, as has the investigating officers, that Mr McCann can account for his movements and there were witnesses to back it up.
If there wasn’t it would have been flagged straight away and it wouldn’t have been Kate being grilled in the police station but Gerry.
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A Good Post, Singularity. Spot on.
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Oh well let's have another try on this tedious story.
One judges people by their deeds not their words (or talk is cheap if you prefer).
When push came to shove the T9 were a no show because they all had ring twitter.
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Time Reports and some more on missing states etc A bit long I'm afraid
Missing pages and Rog statements of Neil and friend
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post116725.html#p116725
Subject: Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance
Earliest Report
Date:14-08-2007
Dear Sirs,
This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.
This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.
At about 22.00 when Kate Healy returned to the apartment to check on the children, the rest of the group were at the Tapas Bar/Restaurant except for Jane Tanner, who was in her apartment G5D as, Evie, one of her children was unwell.
When Kate discovered that her daughter Madeleine was not in the apartment (G5A) she ran back to the Tapas Bar to alert the rest of the group.
Dianne Webster remained at the table whilst all the others rushed to the apartment. Gerry McCann and Kate Healy were the first to return to their apartment, where Kate had left the patio doors completely open and the twins were fast asleep in their beds.
Gerald searched the apartment and stated that the window of the children's bedroom was open and the shutter raised. He checked the shutter before continuing to search outside.
All the men from the group began to search the immediate area.
David Payne ran from the McCann's apartment towards the Millennium area. Then he turned in the direction of the church. He searched the rocky areas of the beach/coast and checked the stands and boats. He then returned to the Ocean Club reception, passing the Millennium area. David then checked the area around the walls together with Matthew Oldfield.
Russell O'Brien was in the McCann's apartment for a moment only, rushing out to search the perimeter of the apartment. Then he went to look for Madeleine with Matthew Oldfield. They went in the direction of the beach. He searched the perimeter of the tennis courts and the paths leading to the beach. Russell searched the gardens and all of the surrounding area. He searched the eastern part of the beach, zigzagging back along the roads to the McCann's apartment. All the time more people were joining in the search and Russell knew the police had been contacted.
Afterwards he searched the adjacent apartments to the east of Kate and Gerry along the Rua da Ramalhete and more apartments to the east. On some occasions David Payne was with him.
When Matthew saw that Madeleine was not in the apartment, he went to the 24 hours reception to ask them to telephone the police. Matthew spent most of the night searching the neighbouring areas for Madeleine without success. Matthew searched the road between the apartment and the Creche. He searched between the apartment and the Millennium restaurant, also along the beach and finally a cemetery as well as the road leading back to the apartment. Part of this search was carried out with David Payne and Russell O'Brien and part was carried out alone. Matthew talked to an Indian insurance salesman and saw Nathan, the director of the beach concession.
Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.
After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible. Dianne stayed in the McCann's apartment for about 5 minutes and then returned to the restaurant to fetch her bag, the McCann's camera and the baby monitor. She then immediately returned to the McCann's apartment. Gerry and Kate were in the apartment as well as Fiona. Fiona asked Dianne to stay with Lily and Scarlet to check that they were ok. Dianne returned to the Payne apartment and stayed there for the rest of the night.
Rachel Mampilly went to see her own daughter before going to meet Jane in her apartment. When they talked Jane told her that when she had gone to check on the children she saw Gerry and Jez talking together as well as a man carrying a child. Jane told Rachel that she had not said anything at the time because nobody knew that Madeleine had gone missing and she had not seen the child's face.
Summary
It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.
Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.
Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).
At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.
At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.
Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic165.html
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Thanks Anna. (the fastest statement spotter in the west!) Have you got the bit where she states the time she left? It must be in another statement. I think she made three statements in all.
Have to go out now. Loads of things to catch up with.
Here you go Sadie
Dianne Webster
Prompted to state for the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically who had left nor when they had done so.
Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at around 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact of Madeleine's disappearance.
Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the McCANNS' apartment.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post528.html#p528
Edited to add Name
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Here you go Sadie
Dianne Webster
Prompted to state for the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically who had left nor when they had done so.
Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at around 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact of Madeleine's disappearance.
Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the McCANNS' apartment.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post528.html#p528
Edited to add Name
Gerry wasn't at the apartment when Dianne first came there after leaving the table. She saw Gerry the 2nd time she went back to the apartment.
Dianne thought it was coming up to 10pm. She didn't know so why are you using her as FACT! The people who knew what time it was when Kate left were Matt and Russell and they say about 9.50 that she left not 10pm. That waiter who served Russell his steak has confirmed this time estimate. That other waiter who said he saw Gerry only guessed at a time from 9.30 to 10pm.
[... content moderated ...]
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So?
Just stating a fact, I think Interesting that it gets that sort of response, though
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Here you go Sadie
Dianne Webster
Prompted to state for the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically who had left nor when they had done so.
Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at around 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact of Madeleine's disappearance.
Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the McCANNS' apartment.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post528.html#p528
Edited to add Name
Also from the same statement
Asked, she adds that she went to the restaurant in the company of her daughter and son-in-law.
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the Payne couple) for dinner the witness said no.
Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
That night she judges to have arrived at the restaurant close to 21h00, in the company of the Payne couple.
That, at that time, the whole group were at the restaurant. The witness did not recall, but thinks that perhaps Gerald and Matt had not been in the restaurant along with the other members of the group.
In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not.
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Ok. She'd nipped back to the Tapas to collect stuff.
4078 ”How did she look?”
Reply ”Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”
4078 ”What did you see when you got there?”
Reply ”What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”
4078 ”What could you see of Madeleine’s bed?”
Reply ”Well the, it was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”
4078 ”Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
Reply ”I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine, and Fiona, Fiona wanted me to go back and err keep, I mean obviously everybody’s concerned for their own children as well and I think also there’d been things left at the table, like err cameras and Rachael’s jacket and things so I, I err, I think I went back to the table then to pick up err what had been left behind, I’m not sure, I think the monitor was there as well and one of the staff at the restaurant asked me what had happened and I just said one of the children has gone missing.”
4078 ”Do you have any idea what time it was by that point?”
Reply ”No err you see I can’t remember how long I sat at the table before I went up to see what was going on.”
4078 ”But when you went back the Tapas was still open? The staff were still around?”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah.”
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Been reading the Turner case is it possible that even while all the early searches were going on the apartment had not been totally searched?
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Madeleine would've been found in the apartment later when the police were searching if she was hidden. I think it's safe to say that Smithman was seen carrying her away long sleeves or not! SY will be after him not Smelly pot belly man.
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Madeleine would've been found in the apartment later when the police were searching if she was hidden. I think it's safe to say that Smithman was seen carrying her away long sleeves or not! SY will be after him not Smelly pot belly man.
In the Turner case searches of the neighborhood proceeded after both the family and the Detroit police had searched the house .
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In the Turner case searches of the neighborhood proceeded after both the family and the Detroit police had searched the house .
I think any detective worth their salt knows it was Smithman carrying Madeleine. Amaral was always correct on that one and then he was removed. Seems fishy to me!
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Kate was alone when Dianne first went there (she was checking the shutters for Kate), next Fiona came and Kate was alone. Gerry was out searching.
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Kate was alone when Dianne first went there, next Fiona came and Kate was alone. Gerry was out searching.
Or, at least, he was out somewhere.
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Rachel Oldfield Rog Interview
Kate said you know, she’d go up and check, do her check and within a couple of minutes later she came back and shouting Madeleine’s gone you know, and then we all just leapt up from the table and went up to her, followed her and Gerry, erm up to their apartment and erm and I remember sort of standing at the bottom of the steps, I didn’t go into the apartment, standing at the bottom of the steps by the patio doors and I think Matt and Russell might have been having a look in the garden, erm and then Matt and I went round and went to our apartment to check on Grace, erm and she was there, erm and then Matt sort of went back and I think he went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, erm and I just stayed near our apartment really and Jane was, she didn’t know what happened, she was looking after Evie, so I went to tell Jane what had happened, erm I think it must have been, must have been after we checked on Grace or sort of, after we checked on Grace and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebody’s taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she’d been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane said to me that when she’d come back to do her check, erm she’d seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she’d been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, they’d been walking across the top of the road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not could have been anyone but still sure it couldn’t have been Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to Jez in the road, erm and so we, you know we had this discussion between ourselves, oh you know, it couldn’t have been Madeleine because you know Gerry had only just checked and he was standing in the road and surely he would have seen, or you know surely somebody couldn’t have taken her that quickly cos Gerry had literally just come out of the apartment, erm and we kind of you know battered that idea back and forward between us for you know, a couple of minutes, erm but you know, anyway”.
1578 “So what time did Jane tell you this”?
Reply “It must have been about, erm ten past ten or something, quarter past ten I guess”.
1578 “And whereabouts did she tell you”?
Reply “We were just outside her apartment but there was like a space between the apartments, erm sort of courtyard-y bit”.
1578 “From the car park entrance or the pool side”?
Reply “Yeah, no the car park entrance”.
1578 “And who was present when she was telling you this”?
Reply “No just me, just me, cos erm Fi was with Kate and, and Gerry and, well with Kate and Gerry I think and all the boys were sort of, had started to look around and started to, Matt had gone to the Police Station to, no gone to the Ocean Club to phone the Police”.
1578 “What was Jane’s demeanour when she was telling you this”?
Reply “Erm she was quite shocked, well we were kind of bit puzzled, cos we thought well you know, could it really have been cos Gerry had just been in, erm but it was a bit of a sort of Jane was like, everybody gob smacked really that you know, she could well have seen Madeleine, erm but we did, you know we, we didn’t have this discussion about whether it could have been just because of the sort of time of Gerry going in and him standing outside talking to Jez and you know, it would have been, somebody would have had to you know, sort of be very quick, or have been in the room when Gerry had gone in, we didn’t talk about that at that time but, you know afterwards, erm obviously that was, I think we kept, yeah I mean we basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “So anyway Jane and I you know talked about that and, and then I can’t remember whether she told, I think she told Fiona then, erm I mean basically you know as soon as the Police arrived, she told, she told the Police”.
1578 “When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you followed Kate”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn’t go into the apartment”.
Reply “Yeah didn’t go in”.
1578 “Who were you with at that point”?
Reply “Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn’t really run very fast, remember that”.
1578 “And then”?
Reply “I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and Kate’s apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure”.
1578 “And then shortly after yourself and Matt”?
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Went round”.
Reply “Went round”.
1578 “To your apartment”?
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “How soon after”?
Reply “Well literally like you know a minute, was sort of a minute, no more than that”.
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Point of note. The time of 10pm is important for so many reasons. It was at this time that the Smith family had an encounter with a man carrying what appeared to them to be a sleeping child. At this time Kate alerted the seated tapas group (minus Jane Tanner) that Madeleine had disappeared. Gerry was seated with the group at 10pm, consequently, he could not have been half a mile away being seen by the Smiths.
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I think any detective worth their salt knows it was Smithman carrying Madeleine. Amaral was always correct on that one and then he was removed. Seems fishy to me!
Why assume that any one had discovered anything that early?
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They had all left the table before 10pm except for Dianne Webster. Sighting was 400 metres away - do it in 2 minutes running half the distance.
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They had all left the table before 10pm except for Dianne Webster. Sighting was 400 metres away - do it in 2 minutes running half the distance.
2 minutes no problem but there are hundreds of men who could have reached the sighting location at your assumed 22.03 exact time.
BTW in your theory you have an exact time for smith sighting but what exact (or approximate) time does your theory have for discovery?
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2 minutes no problem but there are hundreds of men who could have reached the sighting location at your assumed 22.03 exact time.
BTW in your theory you have an exact 10.03 for smith sighting but what exact (or approximate) time does your theory have for discovery?
That was his alibi required time because it wasn't the time that Kate left the table. He should have kept his mouth shut on that exact time - Columbo's mistake!
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2 minutes no problem but there are hundreds of men who could have reached the sighting location at your assumed 22.03 exact time.
BTW in your theory you have an exact time for smith sighting but what exact (or approximate) time does your theory have for discovery?
hundreds of men?
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They had all left the table before 10pm except for Dianne Webster. Sighting was 400 metres away - do it in 2 minutes running half the distance.
You would have to run all the way...thats an eight minute mile...not fast but certainly not slow
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That was his alibi required time because it wasn't the time that Kate left the table. He should have kept his mouth shut on that exact time - Columbo's mistake!
But does your theory have a built in assumption of early discovery?
IMO every one of the early searches was 100% genuine.
It's important to get things in correct sequence.
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They had all left the table before 10pm except for Dianne Webster. Sighting was 400 metres away - do it in 2 minutes running half the distance.
350 according to Admin.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1101.30
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350 according to Admin.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1101.0
Thanks. It wasn't far away for a good runner.
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But does your theory have a built in assumption of early discovery?
IMO every one of the early searches was 100% genuine.
It's important to get things in correct sequence.
As soon as he said to the other men "Let's all split up and look for her" he made his way west on his own. That was the last time he was seen by the other men until later at 5A.
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You would have to run all the way...thats an eight minute mile...not fast but certainly not slow
Yes you would run all the way if you didn't have to carry somebody who was already hidden away from 5A. Run to that concealed place then it's a quick walk from then on.
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Where was the child located during those early searches?
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This is the BS we've been fed and people fall for it hook line and sinker. It will all end in tears 8)><(
"Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, having entered through the back door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her taking so long, and, at the moment the deponent prepared to get up and to check why she was taking so long, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the entire house."
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From the moment the 7 adults arrived panicked back outside 5A garden gate, how many minutes or seconds after that do you think it would be before one of them thought to search and shout her name in the carpark immediately opposite the tapas area entrance?
One minute? Two minutes at absolute max? That's what I think.
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Yes straight away they would have been shouting her name and searching in close proximity to 5A. Russell went down the path and checked all the gardens and then around to the G5 car park northside. Tapas area, kids play area, swimming pool were checked. These were the first places checked. Someone probably looked in the car park opposite tapas bar. Tennis courts next etc.
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Yes straight away they would have been shouting her name and searching in close proximity to 5A. Russell went down the path and checked all the gardens and then around to the G5 car park northside. Tapas area, kids play area, swimming pool were checked. These were the first places checked. Someone probably looked in the car park opposite tapas bar. Tennis courts next etc.
Why didn't her mother call her name?
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Stand in the carpark immediately opposite the tapas area entrance, look up, and there is the upstairs balcony where witnesses including NB and BB were sitting.
So within a very few minutes of the alarm (not 15 minutes thats impossible) those witnesses would hear and see someone searching and shouting the child's name.
The files state the name of the first searcher these witnesses on that balcony heard and saw. It was GM.
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Where was the child located during those early searches?
She had to be away from 5A so where she was temporarily hidden is all speculation (bin, bush etc.). The person who moved her there knows the truth. Rachel said Russ and Matt checked the garden when they first ran there after the alarm so I think she would've been found if she was in the flower bed.
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I had a criminal hiding in my garbage bin and the dogs couldn't find her.
It wasn't until she got out of the bin and tried to leave that they caught her.
The dogs knew she was there, just not precisely where, they kept running but her scent appeared to lead nowhere until her second attempt to leave.
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Stand in the carpark immediately opposite the tapas area entrance, look up, and there is the upstairs balcony where witnesses including NB and BB were sitting.
Not being able to read those first statements are a pain. We don't know if they were listening to music on the balcony or whatever? They saw Gerry but we haven't a time. AFTER 10pm is not good enough. The correct times will be on those first statements.
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I had a criminal hiding in my garbage bin and the dogs couldn't find her.
It wasn't until she got out of the bin and tried to leave that they caught her.
The dogs knew she was there, just not precisely where, they kept running but her scent appeared to lead nowhere until her second attempt to leave.
That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I believe a bin was probably used due to Kate looking in a bin. Don't know if that was only temporary or permanent. Need those hairs tested that were found in the boot first!
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She had to be away from 5A so where she was temporarily hidden is all speculation (bin, bush etc.). The person who moved her there knows the truth. Rachel said Russ and Matt checked the garden when they first ran there after the alarm so I think she would've been found if she was in the flower bed.
Your initial few words were an assumption made in the Turner disappearance in Detroit.
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Thanks I will look at that case. It's my theory and it connects. Who was away for ages on the first check as soon as everyone is accounted for at the table?
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Point of note. The time of 10pm is important for so many reasons. It was at this time that the Smith family had an encounter with a man carrying what appeared to them to be a sleeping child. At this time Kate alerted the seated tapas group (minus Jane Tanner) that Madeleine had disappeared. Gerry was seated with the group at 10pm, consequently, he could not have been half a mile away being seen by the Smiths.
Jane Tanner was sat at the table!
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Jane Tanner was sat at the table!
Jane claimed she was in her apartment looking after a sick child.
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Jane claimed she was in her apartment looking after a sick child.
Not according to the two timelines written by her partner!
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Not according to the two timelines written by her partner!
Dear me - not another pesky discrepancy - but I'm sure there will be a perfectly innocent explanation 8(0(*
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Not being able to read those first statements are a pain. We don't know if they were listening to music on the balcony or whatever? They saw Gerry but we haven't a time. AFTER 10pm is not good enough. The correct times will be on those first statements.
I suggest google maps aerial view. Start at 5A garden gate and switch to "streetview". Walk south a dozen paces and there you are next to the carpark which the balcony looks over. Look west and you can see the balcony, shout a childs name even from there and the people on the balcony can hear you.
For the two to four people on that open balcony to be unaware of people searching below for the entire first 15 minutes, which is what you claim (correct me if wrong?), is absolutely impossible.
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LOL!!!!!
The qualifications of the dogs and the alleged ego of Amaral all fade into minor detail when compared with the Tapas shenanigans and lies conveniently changing stories.
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I suggest google maps aerial view. Start at 5A garden gate and switch to "streetview". Walk south a dozen paces and there you are next to the carpark which the balcony looks over. Look west and you can see the balcony, shout a childs name even from there and the people on the balcony can hear you.
For the two to four people on that open balcony to be unaware of people searching below for the entire first 15 minutes, which is what you claim (correct me if wrong?), is absolutely impossible.
I'm not wrong. You are speculating as you don't know what has been said on the missing statements. Ask Birch how he got the 10.15 time?
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LOL!!!!!
The qualifications of the dogs and the alleged ego of Amaral all fade into minor detail when compared with the Tapas shenanigans and lies conveniently changing stories.
its amazing SY haven't noticed that or are they going to wait till they have spent 20 million in Portugal then arrest the mccanns in Leicester...did eddie speak to Redwood and tell him what he alerted to in PDL..only time will tell
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I'm not wrong. You are speculating as you don't know what has been said on the missing statements. Ask Birch how he got the 10.15 time?
IMO this is the route Smithman took after the sighting of him at roughly 10.03.
A further 12 minutes would be sufficient time for him to cover the remaining distance IMO.
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I'm not wrong. You are speculating as you don't know what has been said on the missing statements. Ask Birch how he got the 10.15 time?
Imo and entirely speculating, the missing statements by Michael Sperrey & Stephen Carpenter are not missing by accident.
Mr Sperrey stayed in FP05 & Mr Carpenter in FP02, the view from both apartments is straight into Mr Murats back garden. >@@(*&)
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I'm not wrong. You are speculating as you don't know what has been said on the missing statements. Ask Birch how he got the 10.15 time?
Who fabricated ("under 20 metres") a distance in an obsession to attack an innocent man?
ETA Who obsessively accused an innocent man and scanned his driveway?
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Who fabricated ("under 20 metres") a distance in an obsession to attack an innocent man?
Birch may have lied but then again he may have got hold of the missing statements. Be interesting to know who is source is for 10.15.
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Imo and entirely speculating, the missing statements by Michael Sperrey & Stephen Carpenter are not missing by accident.
Mr Sperrey stayed in FP05 & Mr Carpenter in FP02, the view from both apartments is straight into Mr Murats back garden. >@@(*&)
True they are probably held back because they contain important info on a suspect.
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Who fabricated ("under 20 metres") a distance in an obsession to attack an innocent man?
ETA Who obsessively accused an innocent man and scanned his driveway?
Mr Birch has never & does not accuse Mr Murat of any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQhe05pkcYg
PS,
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/361930/Jenny-Murat-Kate-McCann-printed-such-awful-things-about-my-Robert-in-her-Madeleine-book
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True they are probably held back because they contain important info on a suspect.
CRUCIAL files relating to Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are being kept secret by the Government to avoid a diplomatic war with Portugal.
They contain discussions between Home Office officials and the Met over vital information on the case.
But Home Secretary Theresa May and her staff have spent the past nine months preventing the Daily Star Sunday from obtaining the papers.
They said there would be “specific detriment to the UK’s relationship with Portugal” if the four files were released.
Ms May also claimed disclosure of three of the documents would “stifle discussion” between officials.
But we understand the papers may show a difference of opinion between the Home Office and Met officers, who are reviewing the files on Madeleine’s 2007 disappearance in Praia da Luz.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/259644/Madeleine-McCann-Key-files-into-probe-kept-top-secret-to-avoid-Portugal-row
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The FIRSTsearcher the people on that balcony noticed was GM.
It seems impossible that during the time a person supposedly did this route, not a single other searcher looked in the carpark opposite tapas reception. It is so close to 5A.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3629.0;attach=3713
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The FIRSTsearcher the people on that balcony noticed was GM.
It seems impossible that during the time a person supposedly did this route, not a single other searcher looked in the carpark opposite tapas reception. It is so close to 5A.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3629.0;attach=3713
It seems impossible that during the time a person supposedly did this route.
Unless the person that took that particular route was the first searcher himself.
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The FIRSTsearcher the people on that balcony noticed was GM.
It seems impossible that during the time a person supposedly did this route, not a single other searcher looked in the carpark opposite tapas reception. It is so close to 5A.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3629.0;attach=3713
Never seen that route pic. Yes that's the circle but Madeleine didn't end up at Casa ......... He may have departed West from the path instead of North. Why do that route for that destination?
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Never seen that route pic. Yes that's the circle but Madeleine didn't end up at Casa ........ Why do that route for that destination?
Madeleine didn't end up at Casa ........
Now we don't know that for sure.
Why do that route for that destination?
I believe he had his reasons, weren't people searching in the area of the more direct route?
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Not to the north they were searching south - tapas area, tennis courts, supermarket. You would hide her to the north IMO not to the west if Murat's was the destination. You could take her to Murat's and back in minutes on one of the checks. He was only 150 metres away wasn't he?
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IMO the initial search of the immediate surroundings would within 2 minutes of the alarm include the carpark opposite tapas reception.
(It is a path the child had walked ten or more times, was familiar with, all the group knew that, so it would be one of the first places checked in the very early search).
Therefore the people on the open balcony looking over that carpark heard and saw their first searcher within 2 minutes of the alarm.
The Brit analyst in the files (who saw the early statements) states clearly the first searcher the balcony people heard and saw was GM.
Therefore the balcony people heard and saw GM within 2 minutes of the alarm.
Thats called logic IMO >@@(*&)
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No there's only one way how Madeleine disappeared in this case and Smithman is the one who did it.
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Oh, do let's have a Stephen Birch Thread...
none of the group ever had access to that garden.
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IMO the initial search of the immediate surroundings would within 2 minutes of the alarm include the carpark opposite tapas reception.
(It is a path the child had walked ten or more times, was familiar with, all the group knew that, so it would be one of the first places checked in the very early search).
Therefore the people on the open balcony looking over that carpark heard and saw their first searcher within 2 minutes of the alarm.
The Brit analyst in the files (who saw the early statements) states clearly the first searcher the balcony people heard and saw was GM.
Therefore the balcony people heard and saw GM within 2 minutes of the alarm.
Thats called logic IMO >@@(*&)
The Brit analyst in the files (who saw the early statements) states clearly the first searcher the balcony people heard and saw was GM.
Just another case of mistaken identity imo.
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The Brit analyst in the files (who saw the early statements) states clearly the first searcher the balcony people heard and saw was GM.
Just another case of mistaken identity imo.
Good point. It's possible. For example at about 10.10 MO went to 24hour reception, searching on the way, and it is likely he took the route which goes directly under this balcony.
However two of the balcony people definitely went down from the balcony and spoke to this searcher. It seems unlikely that having spoken with the searcher face to face they would get his identity wrong. So I think GM searched near the the balcony, the two men came down and joined the search, and it was some minutes later that MO searched on way to 24hour reception.
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none of the group ever had access to that garden.
Stephen Birch did. He climbed over the back wall with a really big machine which must have weighed as much as a small child. And he has the video to prove he did this.
Unfortunately it rather scuppers Amaral's idea of the body in the boot. But that is only passing details.
I think he deserves to be heard.
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none of the group ever had access to that garden.
Stephen Birch did. He climbed over the back wall with a really big machine which must have weighed as much as a small child. And he has the video to prove he did this.
Unfortunately it rather scuppers Amaral's idea of the body in the boot. But that is only passing details.
I think he deserves to be heard.
I don't know anything about this Birch fellow
Did the McCanns pay any attention to his claims ?
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Stephen Birch did. He climbed over the back wall with a really big machine which must have weighed as much as a small child. And he has the video to prove he did this.
Unfortunately it rather scuppers Amaral's idea of the body in the boot. But that is only passing details.
I think he deserves to be heard.
I don't know anything about this Birch fellow
Did the McCanns pay any attention to his claims ?
No and to give them credit, with good reason. He doesn't present himself as the most rational of people. If it were up to me, I dig up the drive way just to shut him up.
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IMO GM must have searched that carpark opposite tapas reception before MO searched there.
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His action was immoral and deserving of some free hotel accomodation IMO.
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There is no point visible from that block 6 balcony which is "less than 20 metres" from RM's garden.
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There is no point visible from that block 6 balcony which is "less than 20 metres" from RM's garden.
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@wonderfulspam thanks however the balcony from which witnesses saw GM searching is not on that view, it is further
north (correction) west.
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@wonderfulspam thanks however the balcony from which witnesses saw GM searching is not on that view, it is further north.
Thanks, that's what I was trying to work out.
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If some blogger (especially one with an obsessive theory to prove) tells you a distance, check it yourself.
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If some poster (especially one with an obsessive theory to prove) tells you a distance, check it yourself.
Saucer of milk dear?
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IMO GM must have searched that carpark opposite tapas reception before MO searched there.
Maybe he went looking for his daughter in the opposite direction to Berry's apartment because he wasn't there when the other 4 reconvened (FP, DP, MO & ROB) - Fiona asked Matt to go and call the police and Fiona went into 5A but no Gerry - he's the only one missing and you say he's in a car park opposite 5A and nobody saw him >@@(*&)
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...you say he's in a car park opposite 5A...
I did not say "car park opposite 5A"
I said "car park opposite tapas reception".
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Yes how far away is 5A from the entrance @)(++(* Only one was missing!
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Yes how far away is 5A from the entrance @)(++(* Only one was missing!
Do you ask the distance to walk from 5A garden gate, to entry of the carpark opposite tapas reception building?
About 22 metres.
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Do you ask the distance to walk from 5A garden gate, to entry of the carpark opposite tapas reception building?
About 22 metres.
Why did all the other 4 reconvene and Gerry was the only one missing? There were 5 to start with and only 4 reconvene. If he was only 20 metres away in the car park then how come none of them saw him there? I think you can see somebody only 20 metres away don't you? The simple explanation is that he was further away from 5A than the others and that's why he was the only one missing.
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Why did all the other 4 reconvene and Gerry was the only one missing? There were 5 to start with and only 4 reconvene. If he was only 20 metres away in the car park then how come none of them saw him there? I think you can see somebody only 20 metres away don't you? The simple explanation is that he was further away from 5A than the others and that's why he was the only one missing.
To walk from 5A garden gate to entry of that carpark is about 22 metres.
The entry of that carpark is visible from 5A garden gate.
The majority of that carpark is not visible from 5A garden gate.
Google maps and Bing maps both sites have good aerial view IMO.
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To walk from 5A garden gate to entry of that carpark is about 22 metres.
The entry of that carpark is visible from 5A garden gate.
The majority of that carpark is not visible from 5A garden gate.
Google maps and Bing maps both sites have good aerial view IMO.
They were coming back up from the supermarket, tennis courts etc. They would be passing that car park to get back to 5A. If Gerry was there they would have seen him.
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@)(++(* Only one was missing!
What about "Gerry had come down at that point" ?
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Who said that? Matt?
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Emma Knight was present when Gerry came in. Emma arrived 5A at around 10.20 and Gerry wasn't there only Fiona and Kate. But he came in when she was there.
"At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.
A short while later, Gerry returned to the apartment accompanied by Russell. They also entered by the patio doors." (Emma Knight statement)
It may be best reading the full statement.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm)
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Who said that? Matt?
It is in FP's 2008 statement.
"And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point."
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It is in FP's 2008 statement.
"And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point."
'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
Reply
Fiona Payne: 'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere,Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
00.50.31
1485
'And''
Reply
Fiona Payne 'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'.
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I already posted, from the files, a British CIU analyst on Mr Amarals team stating clearly it was GM whom the witnesses heard and saw searching and shouting the childs name.
What is the name of this British analyst?
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What is the name of this British analyst?
IIRC analyst name may be written at the end of the report?
www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm
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They were coming back up from the supermarket, tennis courts etc. They would be passing that car park to get back to 5A. If Gerry was there they would have seen him.
Gerry was about 60 metres away from 5A gate. In other words at least 38 metres into that car park. With the balcony being so big and rounded he could even have been standing at the junction of the car park with the alleyway and out of sight to them as they walked up in the dark on the western side of the pavement. If he were there he would have been about 52 metres away from them as they walked up.
What you are all forgetting is that just half a minute difference in time between Gerry talking to RaJ and Neil from the time the group walked up the road ... and no chance they would have seen him.
Gerry was only metres away from the labyrinth of hidden alleyways, zero to 8 metres away in fact = less than 10 seconds? So could have gone in the blink of an eyelid almost.
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IIRC analyst name may be written at the end of the report?
www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm
Thanks but that link is dead?
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Gerry was only metres away from the labyrinth of hidden alleyways, zero to 8 metres away in fact = less than 10 seconds? So could have gone in the blink of an eyelid almost.
"... the labyrinth of hidden alleyways" ... ?
This was a holiday resort in the sleepy end of Portugal's Algarve ... you make it sound like Marrakech !
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Gerry was about 60 metres away from 5A gate. In other words at least 38 metres into that car park. With the balcony being so big and rounded he could even have been standing at the junction of the car park with the alleyway and out of sight to them as they walked up in the dark on the western side of the pavement. If he were there he would have been about 52 metres away from them as they walked up.
What you are all forgetting is that just half a minute difference in time between Gerry talking to RaJ and Neil from the time the group walked up the road ... and no chance they would have seen him.
Gerry was only metres away from the labyrinth of hidden alleyways, zero to 8 metres away in fact = less than 10 seconds? So could have gone in the blink of an eyelid almost.
Sadie, if you want to do some real detective work then go to:
http://chrisspivey.org/digging-for-madeleine/ (http://chrisspivey.org/digging-for-madeleine/)
Contact Chris and ask him who is the source of the 10.15pm time and where did he get it because their first statements are missing from the files?
• That Gerry McCann had been seen less than 20 meters from Robert Murat’s backyard at 10.15 pm on the night in question by Neil Berry and Raj Balu who were sat on the balcony of their holiday apartment.
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Sadie, if you want to do some real detective work then go to:
http://chrisspivey.org/digging-for-madeleine/ (http://chrisspivey.org/digging-for-madeleine/)
Contact Chris and ask him who is the source of the 10.15pm time and where did he get it?
• That Gerry McCann had been seen less than 20 meters from Robert Murat’s backyard at 10.15 pm on the night in question by Neil Berry and Raj Balu who were sat on the balcony of their holiday apartment.
I've already pointed out that it is physically impossible from that balcony to see any point "less than 20 metres" from that garden. There is a huge building preventing this. You have access to mapping sites which have scales on.....
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I've already pointed out that it is physically impossible from that balcony to see any point "less than 20 metres" from that garden. There is a huge building preventing this. You have access to mapping sites which have scales on.....
Can he be seen coming up the path towards Murat's because that is where he would be coming from - he would be on the path i.e. north exit Murat's or west exit balcony/carpark?
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"... the labyrinth of hidden alleyways" ... ?
This was a holiday resort in the sleepy end of Portugal's Algarve ... you make it sound like Marrakech !
Marakesh is very special and its labyrinths are largely indoors, intersrting and exciting, and very busy. In OC it is a different sort of Labyrinth, but believe me there is a one; lots of interlinking alleyways, but very quiet ones and open air rather than enclosed. Maybe they are busier at the times for taking little one to the creche, but when we walked along them we never saw a single person. Mid summer 2010
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Can he be seen coming up the path towards Murat's because that is where he would be coming from - he would be on the path i.e. north exit Murat's or west exit balcony/carpark?
Here is a map showing all the places and paths you are taliking about - 5A, the block 6 balcony where the witnesses were, the paths, including the path you ask about.
If you don't know exactly where any of those things are, please ask.
Trust your own measurements using the scale and assess whether your source is veracious or . .... .. ....???
http://binged.it/1hM0Cil
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Also note that GM was at 5A, when FP told MO to go call police.
Source = FP rog statement 2008
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Your perseverance is admirable but your logic is not. If Gerry was around at that point then he would've went to call the police not Matt who didn't see him again until much later. It was Gerry's daughter who had gone missing not Matt's. If Gerry was present then he would've went! Somebody talking in general terms is not the same when you say now let's go into proper details and then Fiona says Gerry wasn't in the apartment when I first came in. Emma arrived 10 minutes later and Gerry wasn't there. None of the men saw Gerry until later and only 4 reconvened after the initial searches.
Dianne was first looking at the shutters and then Fiona was trying to lift them from the outside when she was there. No mention of Gerry being there or examining them already from Kate (that came later as a good alibi for Smith's sighting). You mean Gerry was letting the women struggle with examining and lifting heavy shutters if he was there? I don't bloody well think so. Kate was alone and Gerry was out searching.
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Your perseverance is admirable but your logic is not. If Gerry was around at that point then he would've went to call the police not Matt who didn't see him again until much later. It was Gerry's daughter who had gone missing not Matt's. If Gerry was present then he would've went! Somebody talking in general terms is not the same when you say now let's go into proper details and then Fiona says Gerry wasn't in the apartment when I first came in. Emma arrived 10 minutes later and Gerry wasn't there. None of the men saw Gerry until later at 5A. And only 4 reconvened after the initial searches.
All the evidence points one way IMO.
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@)(++(* Murat's driveway - I will have to ask super detective Birch where he got that 10.15 time from?
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I've emailed Chris so hopefully I will get a response about the source of this 10.15 pm sighting.
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If Gerry was around at that point then he would've went to call the police not Matt
That's your conjecture, which IMO doesn't make sense behaviourally, and which anyway is totally disproven by the fact he was around. FP states that GM came down from 5A at that point.
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No general talk doesn't = detailed facts. Come down where ? How come nobody saw him there then. Matt, Russ and Dave only saw each other. So how do you explain they didn't see Gerry? First we hear of Gerry being spotted in 5A is when Emma was there and he wasn't there when she arrived at 10.20. Only Kate and Fiona were in 5A.
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No general talk doesn't = detailed facts. Come down where ? How come nobody saw him there then. Matt, Russ and Dave only saw each other. So how do you explain they didn't see Gerry? First we hear of Gerry being spotted in 5A is when Emma was there and he wasn't there when she arrived at 10.20. Only Kate and Fiona were in 5A.
FP said (in rog statement 2008):
"And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point."
IMO it is obvious what "had come down at that point" means.
Had you read this part of FP rog before you claimed that GM was not there at this point?
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"I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point."
Gerry had come in 5A when Fiona was in there with Kate. Emma confirmed that but when going into further details Fiona admitted that Gerry wasn't there when she first went into 5A.
"I said I'm going up" - Yes Fiona saying it to Matt who would've seen Gerry if he was there and he would've phoned the police for his missing daughter not Matt.
SY will be clearing this all up and we will see where Gerry was from 10 to 10.10.
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...when going into further details Fiona admitted that Gerry wasn't there when she first went into 5A....
FP says that GM came down from the apartment just before FP went up to the apartment.
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I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’
Who was Fiona saying this to?
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I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’
Who was Fiona saying this to?
You can read that she does not state exactly to which persons she was saying that.
I gave you the source which says GM had just come down at that point.
If you want to read that as general talk stating that GM did not come down from the apartment at that point in time, that's your choice.
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...I will have to ask super detective Birch where he got that 10.15 time from?
You will certainly find he had no access to unpublished statements.
It would be ironic if (and this is my prediction) he estimated 10.15 based on that exact part of FP's statement which you dismiss.
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Here is a map showing all the places and paths you are taliking about - 5A, the block 6 balcony where the witnesses were, the paths, including the path you ask about.
If you don't know exactly where any of those things are, please ask.
Trust your own measurements using the scale and assess whether your source is veracious or . .... .. ....???
http://binged.it/1hM0Cil
Why have you changed from GEarth to Bing Pegasus? The image on Bing was taken at a time that the alleyways were very overgrown and some cannot be made out; they are hidden by undergrowth.
You usually use google. Could you pease use Google Earth for the same area, from 2007 and show that, cos the bing map image was taken at a time when the paths were seriously overgrown and some are hidden by undergrowth almost completely.
In the immediate area, there are two main alleyways going NNW to SSE and three main alleyways joining the two and going in a SW to NE direction .
Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins (Rua FGM) is the main drag where all the toing and froing happened at meal time when checking the kids.
There are three accesses from the more westerly alleyway onto Rua FGM..
The most southerly of these is at the back of Fazackerleys house (number 35 Rua FGM),
The middle one is to the front of his house.
The most northerly one is where Gerry was talking to Raj and Neil and opposite the reception to the tapas area. It opens onto the area where i believe the getaway car was parked in sadies theory.
Any chance that you could post the GEarth 2007 image, please pegasus? It would be clearer for us all.
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Why have you changed from GEarth to Bing Pegasus?
Both those map sites show that "under 20 metres" (which is part of a theory on some blog site) is a lie.
ETA movements between 10 and 10.10 are BTW in my current revised opinion not of primary interest >@@(*&)
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Both those map sites show that "under 20 metres" (which is part of a theory on some blog site) is a lie.
What is the under 20 metres about pegasus? Have I missed something?
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What is the under 20 metres about pegasus? Have I missed something?
A blogsite wrongly claimed that when GM was seen from NB balcony, GM was less than 20 metres from RM garden.
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A blogsite wrongly claimed that when GM was seen from NB balcony, GM was less than 20 metres from RM garden.
Thankyou Pegasus.
You are quite correct. He was at least 70 metres yards = approx 64 metres crow flies and considerably more by footpath.
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...He was at least 70 metres crow flies and considerably more by footpath.
IMO about 63m by path. Could be less (or more) if was not directly under the balcony. But certainly "less than 20m" is false.
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I think we both got it wrong pegasus.
I think I must have measured in yards and ascribed it to metres and it actually is approx 64 metres not 70 metres, crow flies. I have amended my post.
I disagree with the distance you state by pathway. I make it about 90 metres,and that is just to Murats perimeter wall. [It doesn't take account of using the main gateway] which is rather more than 63 metres. To the main gateway would be a fair bit longer.
Are you aware that there is a very high [? 2 metres?] tennis court like mesh barrier across the entrance to Murats house?
Not immediately across the gates, but between the little local road his drive opens on to and Rua Agostinho de Silva. [Rua A.S] This is the road JT saw bundleman walking along, in an easterly direction, towards Murats.
I didn't measure the barrier, but it was some considerable length. Anyone approaching Murats on foot from 5A direction, would have had to make a fairly considerable detour to reach the main gates. I have no idea whether the Murats had a back gate, or not. Do you ?
Personally I have never felt that Murat was bundleman.
It would be good if we could agree on distances pegasus, then we can write them down as fact in future.
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The information came from super detective Birch so it wouldn't surprise me if he was mistaken. With the location of the balcony it looks likely he exited west to the car park and not the north to Murat's.
Pegasus, where did you get the exact location of G606? Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information came from Stephen Birch who is mentioned in the article.
Regards.
Christopher Spivey
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My response:
Hi Christopher
Thank you for very much for the quick response. Could you kindly pass this on to Stephen Birch so he could answer please? Thank you.
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The information came from super detective Birch so it wouldn't surprise me if he was mistaken. With the location of the balcony it looks likely he exited west to the car park and not the north to Murat's.
Pegasus, where did you get the exact location of G606? Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information came from Stephen Birch who is mentioned in the article.
Regards.
Christopher Spivey
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My response:
Hi Christopher
Thank you for very much for the quick response. Could you kindly pass this on to Stephen Birch so he could answer please? Thank you.
With the location of the balcony it looks likely he exited west to the car park and not the north to Murat's.
How do you work that out? Logically please
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Because from another witness I knew apt 605 was westmost ground floor apt, so it's obvious apt 606 is eastmost first floor apt.
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Gerry's probable return route to 5A from the crèche where he was seen/heard by Berry/Balu on the balcony G606. The is the same short cut path route they used to take Madeleine so Gerry was familiar with it.
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5522&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5520&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5518&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5519&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
BALCONY
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5508&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5511&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5537&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5561&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5562&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
PATH IN FRONT OF 5A GARDEN (the route I think Jane Tanner used because Jez would've seen her if she went past him IMO) If she went the other route as she said then Jez wasn't there at that time IMO.
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5560&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
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I make it about 90 metres
I make it about 63m walk, you make it about 90m walk, what does that make birch/spivey?
"under 20 metres my -----" as my friend Mr Royal might say.
I happen to object strongly to that obsessive and deluded self-important rubbish theory against RM.
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@pathfinder these 3 shots are likely to be from 606 balcony IMO.
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5518&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5508&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
(http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5511&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53)
The view from which you claim was totally unpolluted by searchers for the first c 20 minutes after the alarm?
BTW I am surprised by your support for the driveway theory on other sites, which I consider to be obsessive and deluded.
And do you still support the xray vision through a huge building rubbish about "less than 20 metres"?
It is simply not true (and that is being polite)
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I make it about 63m walk, you make it about 90m walk, what does that make birch/spivey?
"under 20 metres my -----" as my friend Mr Royal might say.
I happen to object strongly to that obsessive and deluded self-important rubbish theory against RM.
How do you feel about the 3 members of the tapas group who lied about seeing Robert Murat?
Or Lori Campbell poking her nose in & smearing him because of her gut intstinct.
Or the British nanny who said she saw a man 'identical' to suspect Robert Murat trying to lift the shutters on the ground floor window of the apartment in December, while she was looking after a six-year-old boy inside.
Or Mrs Jensen, Mrs Wiltshire & Raj Balu all claiming to have seen Murat & all participating in the witchhunt.
Or Kate in her book even "Two officers talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido [suspect] and drip-fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine."
& not forgetting Charlotte Pennington 'I saw Murat at Maddie flat'
Shameful shower.
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How do you feel about the 3 members of the tapas group who lied about seeing Robert Murat?
Or Lori Campbell poking her nose in & smearing him because of her gut intstinct.
Or the British nanny who said she saw a man 'identical' to suspect Robert Murat trying to lift the shutters on the ground floor window of the apartment in December, while she was looking after a six-year-old boy inside.
Or Mrs Jensen, Mrs Wiltshire & Raj Balu all claiming to have seen Murat & all participating in the witchhunt.
Or Kate in her book even "Two officers talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido [suspect] and drip-fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine."
Shameful shower.
That's putting it mildly Wonderfulspam.
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@pathfinder these 3 shots are likely to be from 606 balcony IMO.
www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5518&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53
www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5508&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53
www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5511&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53
The view from which you claim was totally unpolluted by searchers for the first c 20 minutes after the alarm?
BTW I am surprised by your support for the driveway theory on other sites, which I consider to be obsessive and deluded.
And do you still support the xray vision through a huge building rubbish about "less than 20 metres"?
It is simply not true (and that is being polite)
That is the site where I got those images - great ones aswell - many pics are posted and I picked these ones out to show my theory. I hope you're not claiming I post or have posted on that site? Or that I'm Mike whatshisface who the pics are by? You are completely wrong in your assumptions! I don't support Birch's driveway theory. Where have you got that nonsense from and supporting it on other sites? That is laughable and an outright lie so stop spreading crap Pegasus! FYI - I only started looking at this case by reading the McCann's statements around OCT 2013 - look when I joined this site that's the first few weeks after looking at the statements. From reading those first statements and the impossible moving door, nobody going through the window, no glove marks etc. my first thought was staging and Smithman being the one who was seen carrying Madeleine away. My view has not changed!
But I definitely don't support the driveway theory at all - I was only interested in the source of Birch's 10.15 time in regards to my own theory when Berry/Balu spotted Gerry coming from the crèche direction and back to 5A (IMO this would be 10.10 at the earliest but my question is where was Gerry from 10 to 10.10? That should be in the title of this thread). I was curious to see if Birch had splashed the cash on getting the missing statements but probably not after thinking it over.
Until we read the missing first statements what anybody says is speculation in regards to a time. But we do know the balcony sighting happened after 10pm and not before re Raj Balu. I'm presenting my theory from the other statements e.g. Gerry said "Let's all split up and find her" - that's very telling! Him being the one to split everyone up! And when they reconvene i.e. FP, DP, MO & ROB. Gerry is the only one missing!
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I was only interested in the source of Birch's 10.15 time in regards to my own theory when Berry/Balu spotted Gerry coming from the crèche direction and back to 5A (IMO this could be 10.10 at the earliest but my question is where was Gerry from 10 to 10.10?
1) Where did you get that Gerry was coming from the creche direction from pathfinder? I cant recall ever having seen that. Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?
2) How did you come to the conclusion that Gerry was talking to them at about 10.15, or at the very earliest at 10.10 ? Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?
3) I thought that Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements given in the 6th and 7th of May, were VERY SUSPICIOUSLY missing, along with Carolyn Carpenters
All I can find is from later statements was,
4 to 5 Witness statement of Rajinder Singh Balu 2008.05.28
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony.
and
30 to 32 Witness statement of Neil Berry (Holidayed at Ocean Club) 2008.04.23
Once back at the apartment we had dinner and remained there.
iFrom 22.00 onwards all the events that took place were already described in my previous statement of 7th May 2007 and i cannot add any further information, other than that which was already added.
So how do you get the time of 10.15 pathfinder?
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This all speculation from other statements and possible evidence from other sightings 8(0(*
10.15 came from Stephen Birch (Digging for Madeleine blog). So I'm trying to find out his source but he probably guessed it. For doing so I'm wrongly being accused of being a Birch buried under driveway supporter @)(++(*
AFTER 10pm is from Raj Balu.
10.10 is my guess at the earliest time if coming from the crèche. Gerry said he went there but nobody saw him there. I think he passed by there coming back from where he went missing from 10 to 10.10 IMO. He used that path shortcut as I've posted in the series of photos. Madeleine used that shortcut every day so Gerry was familiar with it. Coming back he was spotted by Berry/Balu on the balcony re photos posted.
My speculation isn't made up - it connects with other known or good possible new evidence.
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1) Where did you get that Gerry was coming from the creche direction from pathfinder? I cant recall ever having seen that. Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?
2) How did you come to the conclusion that Gerry was talking to them at about 10.15, or at the very earliest at 10.10 ? Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?
3) I thought that Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements given in the 6th and 7th of May, were VERY SUSPICIOUSLY missing, along with Carolyn Carpenters
All I can find is from later statements was,
4 to 5 Witness statement of Rajinder Singh Balu 2008.05.28
and
30 to 32 Witness statement of Neil Berry (Holidayed at Ocean Club) 2008.04.23
So how do you get the time of 10.15 pathfinder?
The PJ at the request of SY is my guess, weren't some pages withheld at the request of the British authorities, the paedo files for example. I'm sure I've seen that reported before. I will have a dig around in a mo.
Heres one I do remember, possibly not related.
CRUCIAL files relating to Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are being kept secret by the Government to avoid a diplomatic war with Portugal.
They contain discussions between Home Office officials and the Met over vital information on the case.
But Home Secretary Theresa May and her staff have spent the past nine months preventing the Daily Star Sunday from obtaining the papers.
They said there would be “specific detriment to the UK’s relationship with Portugal” if the four files were released.
Ms May also claimed disclosure of three of the documents would “stifle discussion” between officials.
But we understand the papers may show a difference of opinion between the Home Office and Met officers, who are reviewing the files on Madeleine’s 2007 disappearance in Praia da Luz.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/259644/Madeleine-McCann-Key-files-into-probe-kept-top-secret-to-avoid-Portugal-row
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
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1) Where did you get that Gerry was coming from the creche direction from pathfinder? I cant recall ever having seen that. Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?
2) How did you come to the conclusion that Gerry was talking to them at about 10.15, or at the very earliest at 10.10 ? Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?
3) I thought that Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements given in the 6th and 7th of May, were VERY SUSPICIOUSLY missing, along with Carolyn Carpenters
All I can find is from later statements was,
4 to 5 Witness statement of Rajinder Singh Balu 2008.05.28
and
30 to 32 Witness statement of Neil Berry (Holidayed at Ocean Club) 2008.04.23
So how do you get the time of 10.15 pathfinder?
Ah! You want to do this again?
Fine. Raj and Neil returned to Britain on the 5th of May.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_334.jpg
so their original statements were taken by LC. LC hold roughly eleven thousand documents pertaining to the Mccann case which have never been seen by the public.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html
There is nothing suspicious about it at all. Nothing.
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This all speculation from other statements and possible evidence from other sightings 8(0(*
10.15 came from Stephen Birch (Digging for Madeleine blog). So I'm trying to find out his source but he probably guessed it. For doing so I'm wrongly being accused of being a Birch buried under driveway supporter @)(++(*
Well Stephen Birch. What can I say? TBH, I have limited faith in his ideas but I just wish someone would dig that damned drive up and end the speculation one way or another. Bet the Murats would like a new drive free gratis.
Personally I have little faith in the 10.15 time. FGS, how did Stephen Birch find that time out anyhow? It's not in any recorrds that I can find and he came late onto the scene, I believe
Because of the above reasons, I am ignoring that one atm
AFTER 10pm is from Raj Balu.
I am happy about after 10pm. but no indication if it was 10.01 or 10.10. It could have just been a generalisation of the time like in "This is what happened after 10pm". Could mean anything from 10pm onwards.
So nothing exact from there except it was 10pm or after. However it does give an indicator of what time Kate raised the alarm and the search began. It was not before 10pm. it seems
10.10 is my guess at the earliest time if coming from the crèche. Gerry said he went there but nobody saw him there. I think he passed by there coming back from where he went missing from 10 to 10.10 IMO. He used that path shortcut as I've posted in the series of photos. Madeleine used that shortcut every day so Gerry was familiar with it. Coming back he was spotted by Berry/Balu on the balcony re photos posted.
But is this speculation?
How do we know that Gerry was coming from the chreche at all? Especially at this time? If he went and it seems plausible that he might have, how do we know when? I have seen nothing about this, have you?
My speculation isn't made up - it connects with other known or good possible new evidence.
Are you sure, cos it doesn't seem to to me. Where does it connect ?
It is good to see you working things out, Pathfinder, but I wonder if you are allowing your preconceptions to influence your thinking?
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When I said there is nothing suspicious about Raj and Neil's statements not being available, what I actually meant was that there is nothing suspicious about.
For all the reasons I supplied in that and previous posts. i.e that they were in Britain at the time, had their first statements taking by the LC and that none of the documentation held by the LC is publicly available.
There is nothing suspicious about. There is no conspiracy. It is not a case of anyone trying to stitch up Gerry. It is normal practice for the British police not to release witness statements.
It is not fishy nor does it stink. They have not vanished. They have not been disappeared.
There is nothing suspicious. And please understand that that isn't code for "I think there is something suspicious about this".
I don't.
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No. When I said there is nothing suspicious about Raj and Neil's statements not being available, what I actually meant was that there is nothing suspicious about.
For all the reasons I supplied in that and previous posts. i.e that they were in Britain at the time, had their first statements taking by the LC and that none of the documentation held by the LC is publicly available.
There is nothing suspicious about. There is no conspiracy. It is not a case of anyone trying to stitch up Gerry. It is normal practice for the British police not to release witness statements.
It is not fishy nor does it stink. They have not vanished. They have not been disappeared.
There is nothing suspicious. And please understand that that isn't code for "I think there is something suspicious about this".
I don't.
>@@(*&)
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This is from FP rogatory (at about 48 minutes)
"..... Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don’t know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did. And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn’t found Madeleine ....."
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Fiona told Matt to go and phone the police at 10.10 according to them both. Where was Gerry 10 to 10.10?
Matt Oldfield
"I think it's Stuart (John - PF) HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well."
First sighting of Gerry since 10pm from Matt. 30 minutes later at 10.40pm
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In that excerpt of FP rogatory I posted above
(A) FP says GM went into 5A immediately after the alarm rush.
(B) FP says GM came down from 5A when she returned from her short search, and before she entered 5A.
So the time elapsed from event (A) until event (B) is easy to calculate because it is equal to the duration of FP's short search.
She estimates how long her search took in the rogatory (at interview time 55 minutes):
FP: "..... to walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes”.
1485: "Five minutes”.
FP: “It wasn’t long (inaudible)”.
1485: “So from the time that you’d gone racing off after Kate and Gerry”.
FP: “Yeah”.
1485: “You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think?”
FP: “Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it wouldn’t have taken me long to ...."
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In that excerpt of FP rogatory I posted above
(A) FP says GM went into 5A immediately after the alarm rush.
(B) FP says GM came down from 5A when she returned from her short search, and before she entered 5A.
So the time elapsed from event (A) until event (B) is easy to calculate because it is equal to the duration of FP's short search.
She estimates how long her search took in the rogatory (at interview time 55 minutes):
FP: "..... to walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes”.
1485: "Five minutes”.
FP: “It wasn’t long (inaudible)”.
1485: “So from the time that you’d gone racing off after Kate and Gerry”.
FP: “Yeah”.
1485: “You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think?”
FP: “Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it wouldn’t have taken me long to ...."
Dianne went to the apartment 5 minutes after the alarm so how on earth could Fiona be there aswell? Dianne was there for atleast 5 minutes looking at shutters etc. so that's a minimum of 10 minutes after the alarm for starters. Fiona arrived after Dianne had left so you'd better re-work your incorrect timeline? When Fiona arrived only Kate was in 5A.
"And I recall, certainly me, erm, erm, Dave, Matt and I think initially at least Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’." (Russell O'Brien)
No mention of Gerry again being seen in the outdoor searches by Russell. He only met up with Dave and Matt.
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...When Fiona arrived only Kate was in 5A....
When FP entered 5A, GM was not in 5A for the obvious reason that, as FP states in an adjoining sentence, he had just come down from 5A and therefore was no longer in 5A.
The meaning of FP's words "Gerry had come down at that point" is clear JIMO.
Source: FP rogatory (at interview time 48 minutes)
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Well why was Dianne examining and trying to lift heavy shutters on the outside for Kate if Gerry was there. Why didn't Kate ask Gerry to do it if he was there?
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... Fiona arrived after Dianne had left so you'd better re-work your incorrect timeline?....
See DW rogatory (at interview time 1hour 9 minutes and 40 seconds to be precise).
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Read her original statement no mention of Gerry being there only finding Kate in a state of shock.
" The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm)
I think that's another mistake on your part! Gerry wasn't in 5A when Dianne first went there or he would be lifting the heavy shutters (not Dianne) 8-)(--) I already told Anne this and she reported me - for what? telling the truth!
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How can the hypothesis "Fiona arrived after Dianne had left" be correct?
When DW first got to 5A, FP was there. (I gave the exact source already).
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When Fiona arrived at 5A she said nobody was there except Kate. So that means to me that Dianne had left. How could FP be there when Dianne first came. Fiona says she was outdoors with the men going all the way down to the supermarket looking for Madeleine. So unless there is a FP clone it is not possible to be in 2 places at once as Gerry knows all too well 8)--))
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When Fiona arrived at 5A she said nobody was there except Kate.
You are omitting that FP says in an adjoining sentence that GM came down from the apartment just before she entered.
So that means to me that Dianne had left.
DW at that point had not arrived at apartment. For proof see where DW states that FP was in apartment when DW first went in
Fiona says she was outdoors with the men going all the way down to the supermarket looking for Madeleine.
No she does not say "with the men". She says immediatly after the alarm rush she did her quick and only search alone (btw this was west to Rua 1 Maio, south, east to supermarket, north to 5A).
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You are very confused and have things all muddled up. DW went twice to the apartment at different times. I think you're confusing her going the 2nd time with the 1st. Fiona doesn't say Gerry came down from the apartment. Did Gerry sneak up to 5A as soon as Dianne left the first time to collect stuff she forgot at the tapas bar table and Gerry went back down before Fiona went up. How long did he stay there for? One minute and was gone again like a phantom in the night. I don't think so.
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You are very confused and have things all muddled up. DW went twice to the apartment at different times. I think you're confusing her going the 2nd time with the 1st....
You underestimate my accuracy IMO.
The first time DW entered the apartment, FP was already in the apartment.
I already gave you the proof, the interview time, to the exact second.
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Please read this and learn something. Dianne saw Fiona the 2nd time she returned to 5A after leaving the first time to get her stuff from the tapas bar table.
Dianne Webster Statement May 07
The witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN.
- In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
- She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the
window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open.
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.
- Because she was asked, she says she does not know if the window, and the shutter, of the couple's bedroom were open or not, in that she did not enter that room.
- Prompted about the conditions of light inside the apartment at the time, the witness believes that they were good, judging that the lights were lit and she recalls no darkness. Regarding the bedroom previously occupied by Madeleine, she does not remember if the lights were lit, but knows that when she entered the twins were still sleeping in their beds, which makes her think that maybe those lights were switched off. She added that, for her to see the twins and their cradles, and the bed of MADELEINE, the darkness would not be complete, but that the room had some coming from the light of the lounge.
- She adds that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
- The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time (i.e. the 2nd time - PF), the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saw Fiona the 2nd time she arrived. Confirmed in her statement. She was in 5A for 10 minutes the first time she arrived and Kate was alone with the twins.
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... Fiona doesn't say Gerry came down from the apartment....
Hopefully we can agree she said "had come down at this point"?
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Yes we can agree but an investigator needs to confirm what time this was from the witness and make sure this is not further general talk. An investigator needs to follow this up to get the correct and relevant detailed information about the actual time she is referring to to be certain. Matt also said Gerry "come down" but he was referring to Gerry coming down to reception to phone the police at 10.40 not that Gerry was coming down the steps from 5A. If Fiona did see Gerry at that point then it is just after Matt left to phone the police at 10.10. Matt didn't see Gerry so it's after 10.10 IMO so that means my question: Where was Gerry from 10 to 10.10 still stands.
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Please read this and learn something...
You claimed that FP entered the apartment after DW had left.
I said your claim is disproved by the fact that FP was already in apartment when DW first entered as stated in DW rog.
You now post from DW rog that FP was already in apartment when DW first entered.
OK.
BTW I am on a timeline different by more than minutes from yours, plus I keep adapting my theory to newly learned facts, and so it evolves, flaws which yours does not have.
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I've posted her statement above - you could atleast read Dianne's statement. Everything is there crystal clear.
She waits 5 minutes at table.
She goes to 5A where she finds Kate alone in twins bedroom.
She stays about 10 minutes looking and trying to raise shutters etc. Nobody else enters the apartment.
She leaves and goes to tapas bar table to collect her stuff.
She returns to 5A and finds Fiona is now there with Kate.
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The officer asks DW who was in 5A the first time DW entered.
"fiona was there"
I gave you the exact source already.
What's "very confused" and "muddled" about that? >@@(*&)
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Well she was wrong (Fiona was there the 2nd time DW entered 5A) because Fiona said to the others that she was now going to see Kate in 5A. This was at 10.10. Dianne's statement is correct. I know who was missing from 10 to 10.10 as I know who Smithman is and it's up to SY to prove it.
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Well she was wrong (Fiona was there the 2nd time DW entered 5A) because Fiona said to the others that she was now going to see Kate in 5A. This was at 10.10. Dianne's statement is correct. I know who was missing from 10 to 10.10 as I know who Smithman is and it's up to SY to prove it.
If who you think Smithman is who I think you mean?
How long you got? 8(>((
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If who you think Smithman is who I think you mean?
How long you got? 8(>((
I think detectives in SY know who he is but they have to prove it.
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I think detectives in SY know who he is but they have to prove it.
I think they know who is the mastermind, but have to sort out the small fry first. And elimenate others to clear the field
But I could be wrong
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Well she was wrong (Fiona was there the 2nd time DW entered 5A) because Fiona said to the others that she was now going to see Kate in 5A. This was at 10.10. Dianne's statement is correct. I know who was missing from 10 to 10.10 as I know who Smithman is and it's up to SY to prove it.
In DW rogatory statement, at 01:09:40, the officer has just asked who was at 5A specifically the FIRST time DW enters 5A.
DW's answer may be found by searching the text of DW rogatory for this random snippet of text: "fiona was there"
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The first (repeat first) time DW enters 5A she also sees
"----- sitting in the chair"
I'll let you guess who.
SOURCE=DW rogatory at interview time exactly 01:09:40
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The first (repeat first) time DW enters 5A she also sees
"----- sitting in the chair"
I'll let you guess who.
SOURCE=DW rogatory at interview time exactly 01:09:40
It's perfectly clear in her statement that nobody but Kate and the twins were in 5A the first time Dianne arrived. Fiona was there when she went back the 2nd time after leaving and going to the table to retrieve her items as Dianne clearly stated in her statement. As I said Fiona can't be in two places at once. Fiona was out searching with the men when Dianne first went to 5A. Fiona told the others she was now going to see Kate and Matt went to call the police at 10.10.
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Why are you setting such store by Dianne Webster's statement? Because it suits your purpose?
Wonder how long that would stand up in Court along with those of the Gaspars and Yvonne Martin.
Why are you setting such store by Dianne Webster's statement?
Well it ain't worth setting much store by Kate & Gerry's statements really is it, they ain't even sure who put the kids to bed or, if the Smiths' sighting was Maddie, what pyjamas she had on.
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Why are you setting such store by Dianne Webster's statement? Because it suits your purpose?
Wonder how long that would stand up in Court along with those of the Gaspars and Yvonne Martin.
It's not just her statement. Read Fiona's interview to know where she is i.e. outdoor searching with the men. Unless you think Fiona can be at Baptista supermarket and sitting on a chair inside 5A at the same time?
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It's not just her statement. Read Fiona's interview to know where she is i.e. outdoor searching with the men. Unless you think Fiona can be at Baptista supermarket and sitting on a chair inside 5A at the same time?
I did not say FP was sitting in a chair. I said someone was sitting in a chair and gave a source so peeps could read who, here it is again DW 2008 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id254.html 01:09:40
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I did not say FP was sitting in a chair. I said someone was sitting in a chair and gave a source so peeps could read who, here it is again DW 2008 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id254.html 01:09:40
"I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself." (DW Rog 2008)
Rachael never went into 5A so Dianne is mistaken in her interview. Rachel went straight to her apartment to look after the kids. Unless this is much later when the police arrived. This interview from Dianne contradicts Fiona and Rachel so she is wrong. Her statement was correct. The first time Kate was alone in 5A and all the others were out searching as there was a child missing!
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Also same source, at 01:07:18
DW: ...when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.
4078: "What did you see when you got there?”
DW: "What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry ..."
Presumably your point would be that DW almost a year after the events is mixing up the two times she entered.
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She was mistaken a year later and trying to find any mistake/contradiction isn't going to clear a person who was missing from 10 to 10.10. If you use some logic you can see that Dianne was lifting heavy shutters on the outside on her own. Gerry wasn't helping her because he wasn't there and read Rachel's interview to know where she was at this time.
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Seems to me that approximately 5 minutes after the alert Diane makes her first trip to apt 5a and finds Kate and Gerry in a terrible state. After a few minutes she decides to return to the tapas restaurant to collect her handbag, baby monitor and the McCann's camera. She returns to apt 5a for the second time but finds Kate alone. Diane follows Gerry's example, goes outside and fiddles with the shutter in an attempt to raise it. She fails so returns inside where she meets up with Fiona who asks her to return to their apartment to watch their children.
Am I right?
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Seems to me that approximately 5 minutes after the alert Diane makes her first trip to apt 5a and finds Kate and Gerry in a terrible state. After a few minutes she decides to return to the tapas restaurant to collect her handbag, baby monitor and the McCann's camera. She returns to apt 5a for the second time but finds Kate alone. Diane follows Gerry's example, goes outside and fiddles with the shutter in an attempt to raise it. She fails so returns inside where she meets up with Fiona who asks her to return to their apartment to watch their children.
Am I right?
Just looking for now at one small detail: when DW very briefly tried to open by herself the north bedroom shutter from outside, she was not alone, there was someone else standing outside the window with her. (Source DW rogatory).
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Seems to me that approximately 5 minutes after the alert Diane makes her first trip to apt 5a and finds Kate and Gerry in a terrible state. After a few minutes she decides to return to the tapas restaurant to collect her handbag, baby monitor and the McCann's camera. She returns to apt 5a for the second time but finds Kate alone. Diane follows Gerry's example, goes outside and fiddles with the shutter in an attempt to raise it. She fails so returns inside where she meets up with Fiona who asks her to return to their apartment to watch their children.
Am I right?
Read this statement:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm)
(although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)
At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
Time Estimate 10.10 pm (Fiona went to 5A after sending Matt to go and call the police)
1485
'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
FP Reply
'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate.
Kate was already saying that she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'. (Fiona Payne)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm)
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
Time Estimate 10.20 pm
When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed. I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. (Emma Knight)
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So Admin is "completely wrong" and I am "muddled" and "very confused"?
Hmmm.
ETA Good to see at least "completely wrong" has been removed
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Read this statement:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm)
(although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)
At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment.
Time Estimate 10.10 pm
1485
'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
FP Reply
'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate.
Kate was already saying that she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do.
Gerry would have been outside the window foutering with the shutter at that point surely? Just to clarify, didn't he himself claim that this was the first thing he did after checking inside the apartment?
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This is the full picture with estimate times :
Dianne leaves table 5 minutes after the alarm is raised and goes to 5A.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
(although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)
At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
Time Estimate 10.10 pm (Fiona went to 5A after sending Matt to go and call the police)
1485
'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
FP Reply
'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate.
Kate was already saying that she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'. (Fiona Payne)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
Time Estimate 10.20 pm
When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed. I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. (Emma Knight)
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Gerry would have been outside the window foutering with the shutter at that point surely? Just to clarify, didn't he himself claim that this was the first thing he did after checking inside the apartment?
Gerry wasn't there when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm so if he did look at the shutters it was before Dianne arrived. I doubt that he did as Kate got Dianne to check/lift them first and then 10 minutes later Fiona is checking/lifting the heavy shutters. Neither say Gerry was there helping them and why would Kate ask them if she knew Gerry had done it. It doesn't add up. 5 were involved in the initial outdoor searches - Fiona and the 4 men. Russell recalled that Gerry said "Let's all split up and find her!" The next 10 minutes from that point is what is important which I estimate as being from 10 to 10.10!
My Timeline
9.55 Alarm raised
9.57 Tapas area search.
9.59 David Payne tells Dianne she can leave the table.
10pm - Dianne arrives at 5A. Gerry says Let's all split up and find Madeleine.
10.03 - Smithman sighting.
10.10 - Matt goes to reception to call the police. Fiona goes to 5A.
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No Dianne Webster did that when she came round after Kate told her.
According to GM's 10th May statement he also went outside to see if he could lift the blinds,after his initial search of the apartment.
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Gerry wasn't there when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm so if he did look at the shutters it was before Dianne arrived. I doubt that he did as Kate got Dianne to check/lift them first and then 10 minutes later Fiona is checking/lifting the heavy shutters. Neither say Gerry was there helping them and why would Kate ask them if she knew Gerry had done it. It doesn't add up. 5 were involved in the initial outdoor searches - Fiona and the 4 men. Russell recalled that Gerry said "Let's all split up and find her!" The next 10 minutes from that point is what is important which I estimate as being from 10 to 10.10!
My Timeline
9.55 Alarm raised
9.57 Tapas area search.
9.59 David Payne tells Dianne she can leave the table.
10pm - Dianne arrives at 5A. Gerry says Let's all split up and find Madeleine.
10.03 - Smithman sighting.
10.10 - Matt goes to reception to call the police. Fiona goes to 5A.
So you have made up a ficticious timeline to fit your theory, have you?
The only thing that corresponds with the actual statements, that I can see, is that Matt goes to reception at 10.10
Everything else appears to be made up ..... Why? >@@(*&)
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According to GM's 10th May statement he also went outside to see if he could lift the blinds,after his initial search of the apartment.
Yes that doesn't make any sense does it? Seems everyone was checking those god damn shutters. He also said this in his 2nd statement a week after the facts! Get Columbo on the case "And one more thing Mr McCann" 8(0(*
"it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children" 8-)(--)
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So you have made up a ficticious timeline to fit your theory, have you?
The only thing that corresponds with the actual statements, that I can see, is that Matt goes to reception at 10.10
Everything else appears to be made up ..... Why? >@@(*&)
10.03 is the important time. Watch this space to see how important that time actually is ?>)()<
It is part of PF's theory and no getaway cars are involved. Fiona sometime 9.45-10 Kate left. Matt said Kate left table 9.50. Russ got steak Kate goes to check. Russ back at table 9.45.
"Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira)
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10.03 is the important time. Watch this space to see how important that time actually is ?>)()<
It is part of PF's theory and no getaway cars are involved. Fiona sometime 9.45-10 Kate left. Matt said Kate left table 9.50. Russ got steak Kate goes to check. Russ back at table 9.45.
"Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira)
Oh, I see Pathfinder has evolved a theory using times s/he has made up.
Make up the times to fit the theory , eh ?
Bwhahahaha.....sorry, but ...... !!
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Oh, I see Pathfinder has evolved a theory using times s/he has made up.
Make up the times to fit the theory , eh ?
Bwhahahaha.....sorry, but ...... !!
These times are in the files. Fiona sometime 9.45-10 Kate left. Matt said Kate left table 9.50. Russ back at table 9.45 - " my food had arrived, well my food had arrived I think by this point. And, and then Kate, erm, erm, returned." Kate wasn't gone long according to them.
So a conservative estimate is the alarm was raised before 10pm.
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Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.
So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm 8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement and go something isn't quite right here 8)-)))
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Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.
So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm 8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement and go something isn't quite right here 8)-)))
Unlike 'armchair'detectives - professional Detectives do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall. What you find to be 'amazing' - they would find to be 'perfectly normal' as illustrated below.
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving.
End quote
It would seem that more than one person's memory of the event was completely wrong - but there is no suggestion by the police that anyone was lying - and that is because they acknowledge and understand how fallible the memory is.
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Unlike 'armchair'detectives - professional Detectives do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall. What you find to be 'amazing' - they would find to be 'perfectly normal' as illustrated below.
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving.
End quote
It would seem that more than one person's memory of the event was completely wrong - but there is no suggestion by the police that anyone was lying - and that is because they acknowledge and understand how fallible the memory is.
Are you kidding me? Gerry said an exact time of 10.03 8-)(--) did he guess that exact time @)(++(* Shush Smithman sighting? 8)-)))
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Are you kidding me? Gerry said an exact time of 10.03 8-)(--) did he guess that exact time @)(++(* Shush Smithman sighting? 8)-)))
Did you actually read the article as you seem to have missed the whole point. Gerry's recall of that time could be completely wrong. Just as those witnesses who were so sure Menezes vaulted a barrier were completely wrong. And in the same way as one or more of the witnesses who recalled where Jez and Gerry stood in the road, are wrong.
IMO its a wasted exercise to try to accurately pin events down to the last minute by using the times quoted by witnesses - as they are all from memory - and are also memories of a stressful situation - which makes them even more likely to be flawed.
IMO you are using what is very likely to be inaccurate 'evidence' to suggest something 'sinister'.... or as you say... ''one of life's greatest mysteries'' - but which professional policemen would not find 'mysterious' at all because they fully understand the fallibility of memory.
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Did you actually read the article as you seem to have missed the whole point. Gerry's recall of that time could be completely wrong. Just as those witnesses who were so sure Menezes vaulted a barrier were completely wrong. And in the same way as one or more of the witnesses who recalled where Jez and Gerry stood in the road, are wrong.
IMO its a wasted exercise to try to accurately pin events down to the last minute by using the times quoted by witnesses - as they are all from memory - and are also memories of a stressful situation - which makes them even more likely to be flawed.
IMO you are using what is very likely to be inaccurate 'evidence' to suggest something 'sinister'.... or as you say... ''one of life's greatest mysteries'' - but which professional policemen would not find 'mysterious' at all because they fully understand the fallibility of memory.
What planet are you living on? You would only give an exact time if you knew what time it was. If you are not sure of the time you would say I don't know for certain but maybe around 10 or 9.55 not give an exact time down to the exact minute unless you have checked your watch. My theory connects with all the evidence and facts. We will see how wrong I am.
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Did you actually read the article as you seem to have missed the whole point. Gerry's recall of that time could be completely wrong. Just as those witnesses who were so sure Menezes vaulted a barrier were completely wrong. And in the same way as one or more of the witnesses who recalled where Jez and Gerry stood in the road, are wrong.
IMO its a wasted exercise to try to accurately pin events down to the last minute by using the times quoted by witnesses - as they are all from memory - and are also memories of a stressful situation - which makes them even more likely to be flawed.
IMO you are using what is very likely to be inaccurate 'evidence' to suggest something 'sinister'.... or as you say... ''one of life's greatest mysteries'' - but which professional policemen would not find 'mysterious' at all because they fully understand the fallibility of memory.
I don't understand why you are doubting Gerry McCann's assertion about what time he and Kate made their checks on the children
The McCanns themselves have no doubt about their accuracy
From Kate's book ; ( page 70 )
"After ordering his food, Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch."
I have highlighted that comment because it confirms Gerry was checking his watch and was able to be accurate right down to the "just before" detail
This, also from page 70 of Kate's book ;
"Obviously, we didn't want any of our children waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes, and even if the chances of that happening seemed remote, it was enough of a concern to make us absolutely prompt with our checks on the kids. That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings"
Given these quotes I really don't see how you can suggest that Gerry may have been completely wrong about the timing he gave to the police
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What planet are you living on? You would only give an exact time if you know what time it was. If you are not sure of the time you would say I don't know for certain but maybe around 10 or 9.55 not give an exact time down to the exact minute unless you have checked your watch. My theory connects with all the evidence and facts. We will see how wrong I am.
So you didn't read the article then. Fair enough.
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Are you kidding me? Gerry said an exact time of 10.03 8-)(--) did he guess that exact time @)(++(* Shush Smithman sighting? 8)-)))
Russell O'Brien's Rogatory interview quote
"Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by clock."
Maria Manuela Martins da Silva statement quote
" Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58—she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her freind’s apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment;
She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn’t yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill;
. States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment;
. Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions""
...hence it is very likely that the alarm was after ten
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Russell O'Brien's Rogatory interview quote
"Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by clock."
Maria Manuela Martins da Silva statement quote
" Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58—she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her freind’s apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment;
She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn’t yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill;
. States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment;
. Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions""
...hence it is very likely that the alarm was after ten
Tapas staff said before 10 and so did Fiona, Matt, Russ. At 21:58 Kate would've been the only one in the apartment and Dianne was still at the table. Many of the others were either searching the tapas area or around the pathway/car parks so this witness would not have necessarily seen anybody from where she was situated i.e. block 6. blocks 5 and 4 were being searched (pathway between both, gardens and car parks) according to their statements and the tapas pool/play area. I put the alarm being raised at 9.55. 3 minutes before that witness time. I suppose 10pm could be the latest and still be spotted 3 minutes later.
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Anyway, I still think very likely that if the alarm was already raised the witness would notice some movement in the area
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I don't understand why you are doubting Gerry McCann's assertion about what time he and Kate made their checks on the children
The McCanns themselves have no doubt about their accuracy
From Kate's book ; ( page 70 )
"After ordering his food, Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch."
I have highlighted that comment because it confirms Gerry was checking his watch and was able to be accurate right down to the "just before" detail
This, also from page 70 of Kate's book ;
"Obviously, we didn't want any of our children waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes, and even if the chances of that happening seemed remote, it was enough of a concern to make us absolutely prompt with our checks on the kids. That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings"
Given these quotes I really don't see how you can suggest that Gerry may have been completely wrong about the timing he gave to the police
According to the quote provided by Pathfinder GM wasn't wearing a watch?
Quote
''Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03...''..
Unquote.
However, assuming he was wearing one - do you accept then that the time given by Gerry as 10.03 was accurate and proves that he was sitting at the Tapas restaurant and so could not have been the person the Smith's saw?
With regard to times, the only time I know of that is definitely known to be accurate is the 10.40 time recorded as the time the first phone call was made to the police.
I'm firmly with the experts on the subject of 'memory' and have said many times that although I believe the McCanns always told the truth that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate.
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According to the quote provided by Pathfinder GM wasn't wearing a watch?
Quote
''Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03...''..
Unquote.
However, assuming he was wearing one - do you accept then that the time given by Gerry as 10.03 was accurate and proves that he was sitting at the Tapas restaurant and so could not have been the person the Smith's saw?
With regard to times, the only time I know of that is definitely known to be accurate is the 10.40 time recorded as the time the first phone call was made to the police.
I'm firmly with the experts on the subject of 'memory' and have said many times that although I believe the McCanns always told the truth that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate.
You certainly aren't a very good detective are you? Sorry but if you ask a dumb question.....If he was wearing his watch at 9 do you think he wasn't wearing it at 10? Now you know why I started that previous thread where was Gerry between 10 to 10.10 i.e. 10 minutes!
"About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness."
Another big discrepancy to other testimonies at the table.
[with no way to tell the time]
I think I remember a poster corrected that meaning to "nothing to report" not no way to tell the time.
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It certainly is one of life's greatest mysteries ?>)()<
Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.
So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm 8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement and go something isn't quite right here 8)-)))
According to one of the waiters she shouted from the apartment before running to the tapas restaurant. This was why Amaral questioned why a mother finding a child missing and the window and shutter wide open on a cold night would abandon the other two in such circumstances?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492617/Kate-McCann-screamed-BALCONY-theyve-taken-claims-new-witness.html
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Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.
So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm 8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement and go something isn't quite right here 8)-)))
Exactly which statement is this from Pathfinder? Are you sure you have the times right?
Please can you clarify.
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Exactly which statement is this from Pathfinder? Are you sure you have the times right?
Please can you clarify.
pathfinder was quoting GM statement 10th may 2007
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Exactly which statement is this from Pathfinder? Are you sure you have the times right?
Please can you clarify.
pathfinder was quoting GM statement 10th may 2007
Sadie, Pegasus is correct. Link here:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm)
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Maybe not lost, maybe they just never made them to the files released to the public - remind me who released them?
In any case we know Gerry must have had cast iron alibis for that evening because the PJ never asked him where he was when the alarm was raised when he was questioned as an arguido. Unless we're suggesting that the PJ simply forgot to ask this rather critical question...?
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Maybe not lost, maybe they just never made them to the files released to the public - remind me who released them?
In any case we know Gerry must have had cast iron alibis for that evening because the PJ never asked him where he was when the alarm was raised when he was questioned as an arguido. Unless we're suggesting that the PJ simply forgot to ask this rather critical question...?
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom." (GM 7 Sep)
Nobody saw Gerry at the main reception >@@(*&) Matt went there at 10.10 to call the police and Fiona sent him. And he wasn't in 5A when Dianne first went there but I've been though all that on another thread.
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"...went to the main Reception..."(GM 7 Sep)
This is not referring to 10.10 it is referring to later (when several witnesses including GNR confirm at main reception)
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We dont know that. We only have Chinese whispers from her husband ... in other words a third party statement.
Very strangely Carolines statement is missing !!!!!
As are also the statements from Raj and Neil, the two men who could verify the time they saw Gerry searching
So all three of Gerrys potential alibis have somehow got lost !
Sounds very fishy to me. In fact it stinks.
Who took Raj and Neil's statements, Sadie ?
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"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom." (GM 7 Sep)
Nobody saw Gerry at the main reception >@@(*&) Matt went there at 10.10 to call the police and Fiona sent him. And he wasn't in 5A when Dianne first went there but I've been though all that on another thread.
How does any of that disprove my post that Gerry had alibis for the moment when the alarm was raised? Where is the police question "where were you when Kate raised the alarm"?
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This is not referring to 10.10 it is referring to later (when several witnesses including GNR confirm at main reception)
Yes that was at 10:40 quite a bit later than what they were asking about in all probability. He's never had a rog to say where he was from 10pm onwards in full detail. I'm surprised his arguido interview didn't cover it more fully. But the reconstruction would have covered it 8)-)))
"While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom." (GM 7 Sep)
Does that mean 10:40 to you Pegasus?
"Everybody sprinted back to our apartment, except for Dianne, who remained in the Tapas area, and Jane, who was away from the table seeing to her kids. I remember feeling frustrated when David said, ‘Let’s just check the apartment.’ I’d done that, and I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted. I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately, ‘Madeleine! Madeleine!’ >@@(*&) It was so cold and so windy. I kept picturing her in her short-sleeved Marks and Spencer Eeyore pyjamas and feeling how chilled she would be. Bizarrely, I found myself thinking it would have been better if she’d been wearing her long-sleeved Barbie ones. >@@(*&) (long sleeved re Smithman - PF) Fear was shearing through my body.
In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought. >@@(*&) (So did Dianne only minutes later and then Fiona after her - PF) Gerry, David, Russell and Matt split into pairs and dashed around the adjacent apartment blocks, meeting back at our flat within a couple of minutes. >@@(*&) (Not according to Matt, Russ & DP - Gerry didn't meet up again with them - PF) Just after ten past ten, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club’s twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. >@@(*&) (Not according to Matt & Fiona - PF) All the screaming and shouting had now alerted other guests and staff that something was amiss and various people were beginning to appear outside the apartment, front and back. I vividly recall sobbing, ‘Not Madeleine, not Madeleine, not Madeleine.’ I was trying so hard to suppress the negative voice in my head tormenting me with the words, ‘She’s gone. She’s gone.’ Even now, when the dark clouds close in on me, I find myself shaking my head manically and repeating over and over again, ‘Not Madeleine, not Madeleine. Please God, not my Madeleine.’
Gerry and I were standing in the living room clutching each other, utterly distraught. I couldn’t help myself, let alone try to soothe Gerry, who was in a state too harrowing for me to bear, howling for his precious little girl. I kept blaming myself – ‘We’ve let her down! We’ve failed her!’ – which increased Fiona’s own distress. ‘You haven’t, Kate. You haven’t,’ she insisted.
By this time the Mark Warner people had rounded up as many of their colleagues as they could, off-duty staff as well as those just finishing their shifts, rousing some of them from their beds. Close to ten-thirty they activated the company’s ‘missing child search protocol’ and mobilized people to comb the complex and its environs. At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. John Hill, the Mark Warner resort manager, came up to the veranda behind our apartment. I remember screaming at him to do something. ‘Where are the police?’ I yelled at him." (Madeleine)
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If I want the police to be called, I do it myself.
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If I want the police to be called, I do it myself.
We are not all perfect like you. 8)-)))
So you would have left the search and personally gone to the main recerption to ask the police to come .... when you had a volunteer, another Doctor, who was also fast on his feet
I know which I would have done. With someone else looking after calling the Police, I would have run araound like a demented person searching everywhere that was possible.
But then, with you, everything that Gerry and Kate do, or wear, is picked apart
Cant you leave them alone for a second?
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We are not all perfect like you. 8)-)))
So you would have left the search and personally gone to the main recerption to ask the police to come .... when you had a volunteer, another Doctor, who was also fast on his feet
I know which I would have done. With someone else looking after calling the Police, I would have run araound like a demented person searching everywhere that was possible.
But then, with you, everything that Gerry and Kate do, or wear, is picked apart
Cant you leave them alone for a second?
Ignore my posts if you don't like them.
And no, I wouldn't have gone to reception to call - I WOULD HAVE USED MY MOBILE PHONE.
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Ignore my posts if you don't like them.
And no, I wouldn't have gone to reception to call - I WOULD HAVE USED MY MOBILE PHONE.
Yep, but you have to know the number.
As discussed here months ago, even people who are relatively well travelled as we are, both on business and holiday, DO NOT KNOW the emergency number.
John does but he is / was resident.
I dont think one of us on here other than John, or other PT residents like AnneGuedes knew the emergency number.
It aint no good having any number of mobiles if no-one knows the number. They also probably felt it advisable to notify OC and get any help available from there..
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Yep, but you have to know the number.
As discussed here months ago, even people who are relatively well travelled as we are, both on business and holiday, DO NOT KNOW the emergency number.
John does but he is / was resident.
I dont think one of us on here other than John, or other PT residents like AnneGuedes knew the emergency number.
It aint no good having any number of mobiles if no-one knows the number. They also probably felt it advisable to notify OC and get any help available from there..
Oh come on Sadie. They were in a restaurant with several bilingual waiters some of whom even offered to phone the police. No excuses, they simply messed up.
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Oh come on Sadie. They were in a restaurant with several bilingual waiters some of whom even offered to phone the police. No excuses, they simply messed up.
Every time I've stayed in holiday apartments the emergency numbers have been in a book by the bed.
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Every time I've stayed in holiday apartments the emergency numbers have been in a book by the bed.
They only needed to ask one of the waiters with dual nationality who were bilingual and would have phoned the police for them. For some reason this group felt they were above asking a mere waiter. And Madeleine paid the price for this snobbery! 8()-000(
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They only needed to ask one of the waiters with dual nationality who were bilingual and would have phoned the police for them. For some reason this group felt they were above asking a mere waiter. And Madeleine paid the price for this snobbery! 8()-000(
Or, if you're suspicious like me, you would think they didn't call themselves because they didn't want to.
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Or, if you're suspicious like me, you would think they didn't call themselves because they didn't want to.
I believe they called sky news first