UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on March 30, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
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It has been suggested that the reason EVRD Eddie reacted to Kate's clothing was because she had contact with one or more cadavers prior to going to Praia da Luz. This raises some important issues about cadavers, cadaver scent and contamination.
Firstly, it is my understanding that KM was a GP. As such I would have thought that her contact with any dead people would be minimal. When a GP is called out to a potential sudden death they don't normally get involved other than to check for any signs if life. Contact will be minimal and even then they will disinfect their hands if gloves weren't worn.
We know that cadaver scent is only released after a period of around 90 minutes has passed following death. It is highly unlikely that any GP would be attending a deceased person so long after death and even if they did they would not have any reason to have contact with the body at that late stage.
Clothing worn by a GP on duty would unlikely to have been taken on holiday abroad.
For all the reasons above therefore I find it extremely difficult to believe that KM carried any cadaver contaminants with her on holiday
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It has been suggested that the reason EVRD Eddie reacted to Kate's clothing was because she had contact with one or more cadavers prior to going to Praia da Luz. This raises some important issues about cadavers, cadaver scent and contamination.
Firstly, it is my understanding that KM was a GP. As such I would have thought that her contact with any dead people would be minimal. When a GP is called out to a potential sudden death they don't normally get involved other than to check for any signs if life. Contact will be minimal and even then they will disinfect their hands if gloves weren't worn.
We know that cadaver scent is only released after a period of around 90 minutes has passed following death. It is highly unlikely that any GP would be attending a deceased person so long after death and even if they did they would not have any reason to have contact with the body at that late stage.
Clothing worn by a GP on duty would unlikely to have been taken on holiday abroad.
For all the reasons above therefore I find it extremely difficult to believe that KM carried any cadaver contaminants with her on holiday
You are probably correct John, but we must check every avenue. Gerry was more likely to carry a cadaver contaminate, since he worked in a hospital and would have to attend surgery research and post mortems at times. He also had chums in the hospital.
What really puzzles me is that ,the McCanns moved into another Apartment on the night of the disappearance and would need clothing from that wardrobe for use in the morning and yet there was no alert to that apartment. This brings me to believe it was something in 5A or a doggie error.
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It has been suggested that the reason EVRD Eddie reacted to Kate's clothing was because she had contact with one or more cadavers prior to going to Praia da Luz. This raises some important issues about cadavers, cadaver scent and contamination.
Firstly, it is my understanding that KM was a GP. As such I would have thought that her contact with any dead people would be minimal. When a GP is called out to a potential sudden death they don't normally get involved other than to check for any signs if life. Contact will be minimal and even then they will disinfect their hands if gloves weren't worn.
We know that cadaver scent is only released after a period of around 90 minutes has passed following death. It is highly unlikely that any GP would be attending a deceased person so long after death and even if they did they would not have any reason to have contact with the body at that late stage.
Clothing worn by a GP on duty would unlikely to have been taken on holiday abroad.
For all the reasons above therefore I find it extremely difficult to believe that KM carried any cadaver contaminants with her on holiday
Far more likely that one or moreof the police carried cadaver scent
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Far more likely that one or moreof the police carried cadaver scent
I think that is a strong possibility Dave. Shoes etc and the forensic team
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I think that is a strong possibility Dave. Shoes etc and the forensic team
Presumably easy enough to check.
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Presumably easy enough to check.
I think it could be difficult, but worth a try. Thanks
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I think that is a strong possibility Dave. Shoes etc and the forensic team
What really puzzles me is that ,the McCanns moved into another Apartment on the night of the disappearance and would need clothing from that wardrobe for use in the morning and yet there was no alert to that apartment. This brings me to believe it was something in 5A or a doggie error.
Maybe he left his shoes in the wardrobe. The McCann's didn't move in to the Payne's. They moved into 4G the next day. The twins/cots were moved to the Payne's that night. Kate and Gerry were searching PDL on their own apparently.
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That same thought Anna had occurred to me but what niggles me is how the CSI team so singularly failed to pick up on the blood. Picking up any trace of blood, however, minute, is paramount so how was it apparently missed.
As for cadaver odour tell me about it. I've been talking to people for whom cadaver odour cross-contamination is an occupational hazard including undertakers and it's that easy. One careless moment and it's on your clothes.
That's another thing that niggles me. Six of the Tapas 9 would have known about cadaver odour from their student days and the Zapata case had hit the headlines only months before so if there were an attempt at a cover-up why not get rid of disposable incriminating evidence immediately? It makes no sense to me.
Speaking as someone who works for an undertaker, it is not really that important. The smell isn't bad in human terms.
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That same thought Anna had occurred to me but what niggles me is how the CSI team so singularly failed to pick up on the blood. Picking up any trace of blood, however, minute, is paramount so how was it apparently missed.
As for cadaver odour tell me about it. I've been talking to people for whom cadaver odour cross-contamination is an occupational hazard including undertakers and it's that easy. One careless moment and it's on your clothes.
That's another thing that niggles me. Six of the Tapas 9 would have known about cadaver odour from their student days and the Zapata case had hit the headlines only months before so if there were an attempt at a cover-up why not get rid of disposable incriminating evidence immediately? It makes no sense to me.
Puzzle:-
1. No alert by the dog in the Apartment that the Mccanns moved into after leaving 5A?
2. Alerts in 5A months later ?
3. Toy alerted and then not alerted? clothes not alerted and then alerted after being removed from the same box
4. No blood found by C.S.I?
5. We have no idea who or what stayed in 5A or what may have occurred in 5A after the departure of the McCanns?
5. The car was driven to the inspection area, by police? No substantial alerts in the car
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Yes if it was pre-planned they would have a cadaver eliminator with them.
None of it makes any sense at all.
If the dogs did not alert to the Apt that the McCanns moved into with their clothing, where they must have contaminated the Apt somewhere. (if they had the odour on their clothing).
Edited re- Corrections thanks to Benice
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Speaking as someone who works for an undertaker, it is not really that important. The smell isn't bad in human terms.
I am not an undertaker, but I have dealt with many deaths. I always got the smell stuck in my nose though ?8)@)-)
I never gave it a thought that it might affect the job that my husband did at the time, if a cadaver dog was involved. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, but it is as precise as I can be.
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Puzzle:-
1. No alert by the dog in the Apartment that the Mccanns moved into after leaving 5A?
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The family occupied apartment 4G from 04 May to approx 02 July.
Eddie checked apartment 4G on 31 July, which is about four weeks after the family moved out.
Therefore neither the family's clothing nor the toy nor the vehicle keycard were still present in 4G when Eddie checked it.
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As far as I'm aware the McCanns have never tried to blame the cadaver alerts on Kate's job.
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As far as I'm aware the McCanns have never tried to blame the cadaver alerts on Kate's job.
Correct she never did say it. It was a propaganda article in PT press, which was copied here in the UK...... A Myth
Most of these posts came from the thread about other residents in 5A!! So not reinstated, but given another heading.
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Correct she never did say it. It was a propaganda article in PT press, which was copied here in the UK...... A Myth
Most of these posts came from the thread about other residents in 5A!! So not reinstated, but given another heading.
Gerry McCanns' arguido interview:
During this interview several films of a forensic nature showing sniffer dogs were shown where their signalling can be seen regarding indication of cadaver odour and traces of blood also human, and only of a human nature, as well as the comments made by the expert in charge of the procedure.
-- After viewing the films and after the signalling of cadaver odour in their room next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa against the window in the living room, he says that he has no comments, neither has he any explanation for this fact.
--- Also, the dog that detects human blood signalled human blood behind the sofa mentioned above, he says that he cannot explain this fact.
-- Regarding the cadaver odour in the car that was rented at the end of May, (xx)-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.
--- Regarding the presence of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has not explanation for this fact.
-- When confronted with the fact that Madeleine's DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations also described before, he says that he cannot explain.
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Gerry McCanns' arguido interview:
During this interview several films of a forensic nature showing sniffer dogs were shown where their signalling can be seen regarding indication of cadaver odour and traces of blood also human, and only of a human nature, as well as the comments made by the expert in charge of the procedure.
-- After viewing the films and after the signalling of cadaver odour in their room next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa against the window in the living room, he says that he has no comments, neither has he any explanation for this fact.
--- Also, the dog that detects human blood signalled human blood behind the sofa mentioned above, he says that he cannot explain this fact.
-- Regarding the cadaver odour in the car that was rented at the end of May, (xx)-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.
--- Regarding the presence of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has not explanation for this fact.
-- When confronted with the fact that Madeleine's DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations also described before, he says that he cannot explain.
The DNA(Maddie's) in the car was another lie, but it seems to be OK to lie about some people and highly unacceptable to criticise others. Also what is the point of research into a thread subject when it is unknown how long it will be there for?.
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The DNA(Maddie's) in the car was another lie, but it seems to be OK to lie about some people and highly unacceptable to criticise others. Also what is the point of research into a thread subject when it is unknown how long it will be there for?.
Picking up on Ferryman's post concerning Gerry's arguido interview:
-- Regarding the cadaver odour in the car that was rented at the end of May, (xx)-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.
--- Regarding the presence of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has not explanation for this fact.
-- When confronted with the fact that Madeleine's DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations also described before, he says that he cannot explain.
It is clearly either total incompetence on the part of the PJ interrogating him in understanding the results, or bluff. Or perhaps both.
Were either Kate or Gerry actually shown the forensic reports?
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Picking up on Ferryman's post concerning Gerry's arguido interview:
-- Regarding the cadaver odour in the car that was rented at the end of May, (xx)-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.
--- Regarding the presence of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has not explanation for this fact.
-- When confronted with the fact that Madeleine's DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations also described before, he says that he cannot explain.
It is clearly either total incompetence on the part of the PJ interrogating him in understanding the results, or bluff. Or perhaps both.
Were either Kate or Gerry actually shown the forensic reports?
Obviously not. It was a bullying tactic to instil enough fear........
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Obviously not. It was a bullying tactic to instil enough fear........
I suppose that the original PJ team could have misunderstood... I can't work out from Amaral's book and later claims whether he ever actually understood the forensics or not.
If no one on that original team actually understood the basic forensics.... why on earth were they in charge of a potential murder case?
ETA: Particularly after the total lack of any relevant forensic evidence in the Cipriano case... Bewildering.
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Mike Walker (National Enquirer): "And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That's what I do. I'm a doctor."
Kate McCann was a part-time GP at a small practice in Melton Mowbray, a sleepy town in middle England with a population of 25,500. Leaving aside the fact that it would not have been her job to routinely 'handle dead bodies', 6 dead, under her part-time care, in the days before she left for Portugal, would surely have raised questions as to her professional competence. Indeed, such a scenario, if true, would test the credibility of an Agatha Chrsitie or Ruth Rendell novel.
A quick Google search reveals there were no reported outbreaks of smallpox, bubonic plague or arsenic in the pork pies, so we are left to conclude that the '6 dead bodies' were unceremoniously exhumed purely to counter the indications made by the sniffer dogs.
But why? If there has never been a 'shred of evidence' that Madeleine is dead, as the McCanns have consistently, and persistently, argued, then why did they feel the need to manufacture an alibi for the smell of death found in locations, and on various items, connected to them?
Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister, was the first to pick up the baton, on the day of Gerry McCann's arguido interview:
“He’s going in at 2pm today. But he’s not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there’s something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death. How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeline’s case. They’re doctors, if there’s a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?”
It's worth noting here that the primary concern of Philomena is to shift the finger of blame away from her brother onto his wife. Blood is thicker than water, after all. It's only once she has irrevocably established that 'the main suspect' is Kate, that she feels comfortable to move onto the dogs indications - those being associated with Kate, of course. She does not reject the dogs alerts as 'ludicrous' and 'impossible' but accepts them and further seeks to provide justification for them.
It was Lori Campbell, writing in the Sunday Mirror, 09 September 2007, who then developed the story further:
'Kate was also told sniffer dogs had discovered the scent of a corpse on her jeans. But she said that could be easily explained because as a locum GP she had been near a dead person before the family's holiday.'
Quite what she was doing 'near' a dead person, in her jeans, without seemingly attending to them, remains a mystery. Maybe she thought she could assess the state of the unfortunate person's health by standing in a different room, much like she claims was the case when she checked on Madeleine ("I did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually [in the living room] and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then...").
But wait, there's more. In another report, in the same issue, by the same author, the number has remarkably grown, as if Ms Campbell had suddenly discovered a cake labelled 'EAT ME':
'Friends have pointed out that GP Kate was present at several deaths before she went away on holiday.'
The idea that Kate attended to 'several deaths', or even just the one, dressed in clothes suited to a Portuguese beach holiday surely stretches the credibility of that argument to snapping point. It appears it wasn't only Eddie, the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog, that was barking at that time.
It is unsurprising that the claim was quickly dropped after the McCanns fled back to the UK and fell into the arms of a team of high profile and expensive lawyers, and various PR personnel. It has never been repeated since - until being dug up again for the Nancy Grace show.
It seems clear that the McCanns' lawyers realised the McCanns were sheltering in a house of cards and advised them to turn defence into attack. They did so by embarking on a course of action designed to undermine and belittle the capabilities of the sniffer dogs and the credibility of their handler, Martin Grime.
Hence we witnessed the following exchange, in an interview with Sandra Felgueiras for Portuguese TV, 05 November 2009:
Sandra Felgueiras: This is the first time that you give us a big interview, not being arguidos [suspects], since then. So now I feel free to ask you this directly: How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?
Kate McCann: Sandra, maybe you should be asking the judiciary because they've examined all this...
Sandra Felgueiras: But those were not an explanation for that.
Kate McCann: I mean, we are obviously Madeleine's mum and dad and we're desperate for people to help us find Madeleine, which is why we're here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and we're asking them if they'll help us spread this message to that person or people that knows something.
Sandra Felgueiras: So you don't have any explanation for that?
Gerry McCann: Ask the dogs, Sandra.
Sandra Felgueiras: Ask the dogs? No, Gerry. Now I think, well, I feel free to ask you. Don't you feel free to answer me?
Gerry McCann: I can tell you that we have obviously looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.
Sandra Felgueiras: Unreliable?
Gerry McCann: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically.
Indeed. So unreliable that they continue to be used as an investigative tool in all major homicide inquiries and missing people cases.
Most recently, Martin Grime testified at the murder trial of D'Andre Lane, who was found guilty of abusing and murdering his two-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones, even though, like Madeleine, her body has never been found.
Mr Grime's cadaver dog 'Morse' detected a scent inside Lane's car (on the child's blanket and on a car seat), in the girl's bedroom and in Lane's home.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" asked Judge Vonda Evans at the trial.
"No," replied Mr Grime.
Full interview (http://www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1308/27/ng.01.html)
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Mike Walker (National Enquirer): "And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That's what I do. I'm a doctor."
The National Enquirer is a well-known fabricator of stories. Where is it recorded that Kate McCann said the quote attributed to her?
Where is the rest of the above article from? Also the NE?
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Mike Walker (National Enquirer): "And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That's what I do. I'm a doctor."
Kate McCann was a part-time GP at a small practice in Melton Mowbray, a sleepy town in middle England with a population of 25,500. Leaving aside the fact that it would not have been her job to routinely 'handle dead bodies', 6 dead, under her part-time care, in the days before she left for Portugal, would surely have raised questions as to her professional competence. Indeed, such a scenario, if true, would test the credibility of an Agatha Chrsitie or Ruth Rendell novel.
A quick Google search reveals there were no reported outbreaks of smallpox, bubonic plague or arsenic in the pork pies, so we are left to conclude that the '6 dead bodies' were unceremoniously exhumed purely to counter the indications made by the sniffer dogs.
But why? If there has never been a 'shred of evidence' that Madeleine is dead, as the McCanns have consistently, and persistently, argued, then why did they feel the need to manufacture an alibi for the smell of death found in locations, and on various items, connected to them?
Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister, was the first to pick up the baton, on the day of Gerry McCann's arguido interview:
“He’s going in at 2pm today. But he’s not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there’s something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death. How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeline’s case. They’re doctors, if there’s a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?”
It's worth noting here that the primary concern of Philomena is to shift the finger of blame away from her brother onto his wife. Blood is thicker than water, after all. It's only once she has irrevocably established that 'the main suspect' is Kate, that she feels comfortable to move onto the dogs indications - those being associated with Kate, of course. She does not reject the dogs alerts as 'ludicrous' and 'impossible' but accepts them and further seeks to provide justification for them.
It was Lori Campbell, writing in the Sunday Mirror, 09 September 2007, who then developed the story further:
'Kate was also told sniffer dogs had discovered the scent of a corpse on her jeans. But she said that could be easily explained because as a locum GP she had been near a dead person before the family's holiday.'
Quite what she was doing 'near' a dead person, in her jeans, without seemingly attending to them, remains a mystery. Maybe she thought she could assess the state of the unfortunate person's health by standing in a different room, much like she claims was the case when she checked on Madeleine ("I did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually [in the living room] and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then...").
But wait, there's more. In another report, in the same issue, by the same author, the number has remarkably grown, as if Ms Campbell had suddenly discovered a cake labelled 'EAT ME':
'Friends have pointed out that GP Kate was present at several deaths before she went away on holiday.'
The idea that Kate attended to 'several deaths', or even just the one, dressed in clothes suited to a Portuguese beach holiday surely stretches the credibility of that argument to snapping point. It appears it wasn't only Eddie, the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog, that was barking at that time.
It is unsurprising that the claim was quickly dropped after the McCanns fled back to the UK and fell into the arms of a team of high profile and expensive lawyers, and various PR personnel. It has never been repeated since - until being dug up again for the Nancy Grace show.
It seems clear that the McCanns' lawyers realised the McCanns were sheltering in a house of cards and advised them to turn defence into attack. They did so by embarking on a course of action designed to undermine and belittle the capabilities of the sniffer dogs and the credibility of their handler, Martin Grime.
Hence we witnessed the following exchange, in an interview with Sandra Felgueiras for Portuguese TV, 05 November 2009:
Sandra Felgueiras: This is the first time that you give us a big interview, not being arguidos [suspects], since then. So now I feel free to ask you this directly: How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?
Kate McCann: Sandra, maybe you should be asking the judiciary because they've examined all this...
Sandra Felgueiras: But those were not an explanation for that.
Kate McCann: I mean, we are obviously Madeleine's mum and dad and we're desperate for people to help us find Madeleine, which is why we're here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and we're asking them if they'll help us spread this message to that person or people that knows something.
Sandra Felgueiras: So you don't have any explanation for that?
Gerry McCann: Ask the dogs, Sandra.
Sandra Felgueiras: Ask the dogs? No, Gerry. Now I think, well, I feel free to ask you. Don't you feel free to answer me?
Gerry McCann: I can tell you that we have obviously looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.
Sandra Felgueiras: Unreliable?
Gerry McCann: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically.
Indeed. So unreliable that they continue to be used as an investigative tool in all major homicide inquiries and missing people cases.
Most recently, Martin Grime testified at the murder trial of D'Andre Lane, who was found guilty of abusing and murdering his two-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones, even though, like Madeleine, her body has never been found.
Mr Grime's cadaver dog 'Morse' detected a scent inside Lane's car (on the child's blanket and on a car seat), in the girl's bedroom and in Lane's home.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" asked Judge Vonda Evans at the trial.
"No," replied Mr Grime.
So from what blatant anti McCann publication is this from?
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Mike Walker (National Enquirer): "And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That's what I do. I'm a doctor."
Kate McCann was a part-time GP at a small practice in Melton Mowbray, a sleepy town in middle England with a population of 25,500. Leaving aside the fact that it would not have been her job to routinely 'handle dead bodies', 6 dead, under her part-time care, in the days before she left for Portugal, would surely have raised questions as to her professional competence. Indeed, such a scenario, if true, would test the credibility of an Agatha Chrsitie or Ruth Rendell novel.
A quick Google search reveals there were no reported outbreaks of smallpox, bubonic plague or arsenic in the pork pies, so we are left to conclude that the '6 dead bodies' were unceremoniously exhumed purely to counter the indications made by the sniffer dogs.
But why? If there has never been a 'shred of evidence' that Madeleine is dead, as the McCanns have consistently, and persistently, argued, then why did they feel the need to manufacture an alibi for the smell of death found in locations, and on various items, connected to them?
Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister, was the first to pick up the baton, on the day of Gerry McCann's arguido interview:
“He’s going in at 2pm today. But he’s not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there’s something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death. How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeline’s case. They’re doctors, if there’s a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?”
It's worth noting here that the primary concern of Philomena is to shift the finger of blame away from her brother onto his wife. Blood is thicker than water, after all. It's only once she has irrevocably established that 'the main suspect' is Kate, that she feels comfortable to move onto the dogs indications - those being associated with Kate, of course. She does not reject the dogs alerts as 'ludicrous' and 'impossible' but accepts them and further seeks to provide justification for them.
It was Lori Campbell, writing in the Sunday Mirror, 09 September 2007, who then developed the story further:
'Kate was also told sniffer dogs had discovered the scent of a corpse on her jeans. But she said that could be easily explained because as a locum GP she had been near a dead person before the family's holiday.'
Quite what she was doing 'near' a dead person, in her jeans, without seemingly attending to them, remains a mystery. Maybe she thought she could assess the state of the unfortunate person's health by standing in a different room, much like she claims was the case when she checked on Madeleine ("I did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually [in the living room] and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then...").
But wait, there's more. In another report, in the same issue, by the same author, the number has remarkably grown, as if Ms Campbell had suddenly discovered a cake labelled 'EAT ME':
'Friends have pointed out that GP Kate was present at several deaths before she went away on holiday.'
The idea that Kate attended to 'several deaths', or even just the one, dressed in clothes suited to a Portuguese beach holiday surely stretches the credibility of that argument to snapping point. It appears it wasn't only Eddie, the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog, that was barking at that time.
It is unsurprising that the claim was quickly dropped after the McCanns fled back to the UK and fell into the arms of a team of high profile and expensive lawyers, and various PR personnel. It has never been repeated since - until being dug up again for the Nancy Grace show.
It seems clear that the McCanns' lawyers realised the McCanns were sheltering in a house of cards and advised them to turn defence into attack. They did so by embarking on a course of action designed to undermine and belittle the capabilities of the sniffer dogs and the credibility of their handler, Martin Grime.
Hence we witnessed the following exchange, in an interview with Sandra Felgueiras for Portuguese TV, 05 November 2009:
Sandra Felgueiras: This is the first time that you give us a big interview, not being arguidos [suspects], since then. So now I feel free to ask you this directly: How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?
Kate McCann: Sandra, maybe you should be asking the judiciary because they've examined all this...
Sandra Felgueiras: But those were not an explanation for that.
Kate McCann: I mean, we are obviously Madeleine's mum and dad and we're desperate for people to help us find Madeleine, which is why we're here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and we're asking them if they'll help us spread this message to that person or people that knows something.
Sandra Felgueiras: So you don't have any explanation for that?
Gerry McCann: Ask the dogs, Sandra.
Sandra Felgueiras: Ask the dogs? No, Gerry. Now I think, well, I feel free to ask you. Don't you feel free to answer me?
Gerry McCann: I can tell you that we have obviously looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.
Sandra Felgueiras: Unreliable?
Gerry McCann: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically.
Indeed. So unreliable that they continue to be used as an investigative tool in all major homicide inquiries and missing people cases.
Most recently, Martin Grime testified at the murder trial of D'Andre Lane, who was found guilty of abusing and murdering his two-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones, even though, like Madeleine, her body has never been found.
Mr Grime's cadaver dog 'Morse' detected a scent inside Lane's car (on the child's blanket and on a car seat), in the girl's bedroom and in Lane's home.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" asked Judge Vonda Evans at the trial.
"No," replied Mr Grime.
this is just another pathetic attempt to smear the McCanns by posting an article that has no credibility. No wonder some gullible people swallow these things when they are presented as the truth
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It is written by Nigel Moore - say no more.
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It is written by Nigel Moore - say no more.
so basically its all lies
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this is just another pathetic attempt to smear the McCanns by posting an article that has no credibility. No wonder some gullible people swallow these things when they are presented as the truth
Anyone who begins an article with a quote from the National Enquirer to try and lend their ensuing article credibility really is scraping the barrel. The paper is notorious for publishing the most scandalous, salacious and above all inaccurate stories ever written! It's would be like quoting the Sunday Sport in order to support one's argument. Absurd.
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For anyone who has missed it the full interview which included contributions from our very own Jerry Lawton of the Daily Star.
www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1308/27/ng.01.html
MIKE WALKER Senior Editor "National Enquirer"
"The night she disappeared, the parents had been, as you said, checking on her. They were having dinner with some people about 300 yards away from -- pardon me, about 100 yards, 300 feet away from the room, and they were sitting around a pool. So they could see the room. They were sending somebody over. One of them would go over every 30 minutes or so to check on the children, and then suddenly of course the disappearance.
Now, what happened immediately, when the disappearance was reported, and the police arrived, the first thing the police didn`t do was secure the crime scene. People were walking all over, all around. As Scotland Yard says, you know, destroying what might have been valuable forensic evidence, or maybe not.
The next thing that happened was the police just decided arbitrarily that because both of these people were doctors, one of them a very respected cardiologist and his wife a very respected general practitioner, doctors, they decided what they were doing probably was drugging the kids so that they would stay asleep and not be a bother, and probably that`s what happened here, and she overdosed the kid and the kid died, and so they got rid of the body. Question, Nancy. Where do you get rid of a body? OK? They tried to say that rented car had DNA evidence traced. It was later proven to be wrong, wrong forensic testing. But you know, what did they do? They secretly kept the baby somewhere under the bed in the rental place where they stayed, under police supervision all those days? No. You can`t hide a body like that. Very hot in Portugal that time of year. Bodies decompose very quickly. So there`s in way that anybody can say there`s any evidence that the child had died.
And even when the Spanish -- Portuguese police brought in corpse sniffing dogs, they said we sniffed your car keys and we had a trace of a dead body. There you are. And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That`s what I do. I`m a doctor. And so there`s no evidence that the child died, but there`s a lot of evidence mounting that she may still be alive."
www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1308/27/ng.01.html
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Mike Walker (National Enquirer): "And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That's what I do. I'm a doctor."
The National Enquirer is a well-known fabricator of stories. Where is it recorded that Kate McCann said the quote attributed to her?
Where is the rest of the above article from? Also the NE?
Is that the origin? A certain "Mike Walker" being given an exclusive in the National Enquirer? And that got copied? LOL
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For anyone who has missed it the full interview which included contributions from our very own Jerry Lawton of the Daily Star.
www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1308/27/ng.01.html
WALKER: The night she disappeared, the parents had been, as you said, checking on her. They were having dinner with some people about 300 yards away from -- pardon me, about 100 yards, 300 feet away from the room, and they were sitting around a pool. So they could see the room. They were sending somebody over. One of them would go over every 30 minutes or so to check on the children, and then suddenly of course the disappearance.
Now, what happened immediately, when the disappearance was reported, and the police arrived, the first thing the police didn`t do was secure the crime scene. People were walking all over, all around. As Scotland Yard says, you know, destroying what might have been valuable forensic evidence, or maybe not.
The next thing that happened was the police just decided arbitrarily that because both of these people were doctors, one of them a very respected cardiologist and his wife a very respected general practitioner, doctors, they decided what they were doing probably was drugging the kids so that they would stay asleep and not be a bother, and probably that`s what happened here, and she overdosed the kid and the kid died, and so they got rid of the body. Question, Nancy. Where do you get rid of a body? OK? They tried to say that rented car had DNA evidence traced. It was later proven to be wrong, wrong forensic testing. But you know, what did they do? They secretly kept the baby somewhere under the bed in the rental place where they stayed, under police supervision all those days? No. You can`t hide a body like that. Very hot in Portugal that time of year. Bodies decompose very quickly. So there`s in way that anybody can say there`s any evidence that the child had died.
And even when the Spanish -- Portuguese police brought in corpse sniffing dogs, they said we sniffed your car keys and we had a trace of a dead body. There you are. And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That`s what I do. I`m a doctor. And so there`s no evidence that the child died, but there`s a lot of evidence mounting that she may still be alive.
So you believe all this....
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I see. It's not even a quote from the National Enquirer paper itself, but a quote from a TV interview which included the guy from the Enquirer. He really should have checked his facts before spouting off like that but I see that in essence he appears to be sceptical regarding the possibility that the McCanns were involved in a cover-up. It's unsurprising that his words taken out of context to be used as yet another stick with which to beat Madeleine's parents though.
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So you believe all this....
The distance from the patio of 5a to the tapas restaurant is 50 metres and not 300 feet.
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For anyone who has missed it the full interview which included contributions from our very own Jerry Lawton of the Daily Star.
www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1308/27/ng.01.html
MIKE WALKER Senior Editor "National Enquirer"
"The night she disappeared, the parents had been, as you said, checking on her. They were having dinner with some people about 300 yards away from -- pardon me, about 100 yards, 300 feet away from the room, and they were sitting around a pool. So they could see the room. They were sending somebody over. One of them would go over every 30 minutes or so to check on the children, and then suddenly of course the disappearance.
Now, what happened immediately, when the disappearance was reported, and the police arrived, the first thing the police didn`t do was secure the crime scene. People were walking all over, all around. As Scotland Yard says, you know, destroying what might have been valuable forensic evidence, or maybe not.
The next thing that happened was the police just decided arbitrarily that because both of these people were doctors, one of them a very respected cardiologist and his wife a very respected general practitioner, doctors, they decided what they were doing probably was drugging the kids so that they would stay asleep and not be a bother, and probably that`s what happened here, and she overdosed the kid and the kid died, and so they got rid of the body. Question, Nancy. Where do you get rid of a body? OK? They tried to say that rented car had DNA evidence traced. It was later proven to be wrong, wrong forensic testing. But you know, what did they do? They secretly kept the baby somewhere under the bed in the rental place where they stayed, under police supervision all those days? No. You can`t hide a body like that. Very hot in Portugal that time of year. Bodies decompose very quickly. So there`s in way that anybody can say there`s any evidence that the child had died.
And even when the Spanish -- Portuguese police brought in corpse sniffing dogs, they said we sniffed your car keys and we had a trace of a dead body. There you are. And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That`s what I do. I`m a doctor. And so there`s no evidence that the child died, but there`s a lot of evidence mounting that she may still be alive."
www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1308/27/ng.01.html
The link you gave goes to, erm, Nancy Grace...
Did I miss something?
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And here we have the same claim in the Daily Telegraph.
"A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said the smell on Mrs McCann could be explained by being in contact with corpses while working as a GP."
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1563381/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-look-to-US-sniffer-dog-case.html
It has been claimed that the original story came from the Portuguese daily, Correio da Manha. There are other claims in the British Press that the comments originated with Kate McCann's mother when confronted with the news of the dog alerts to Kate's clothing and cuddle cat. The latter being explained since the toy made occasional visits to the GP's place of employment.
What is known for sure is that neither Gerry or Kate McCann were asked to explain the dog alerts to clothing at the arguido interviews. The clothes were returned to them the following day.
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Picking up on Ferryman's post concerning Gerry's arguido interview:
-- Regarding the cadaver odour in the car that was rented at the end of May, (xx)-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.
--- Regarding the presence of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has not explanation for this fact.
-- When confronted with the fact that Madeleine's DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations also described before, he says that he cannot explain.
It is clearly either total incompetence on the part of the PJ interrogating him in understanding the results, or bluff. Or perhaps both.
Were either Kate or Gerry actually shown the forensic reports?
Would it be usual practice to do so?
In a similar situation would British police disclose written forensic reports?
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Anyone who begins an article with a quote from the National Enquirer to try and lend their ensuing article credibility really is scraping the barrel. The paper is notorious for publishing the most scandalous, salacious and above all inaccurate stories ever written! It's would be like quoting the Sunday Sport in order to support one's argument. Absurd.
How about the Daily Mail then ?
An article written by Vanessa Allen ( a journalist always very 'supportive' 0f the McCanns ) on July 22 2008, is still available on line ( if anyone cares to link to it )
In that artice ( entitled 'The dodgy DNA evidence that lead to the McCanns being made suspects' ) Ms Allen states ;
"Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday"
So the claim was made in the mainstream British press too
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Suppose it is true that Kate's mother was asked by the media to account for the cadaver alerts to her daughter's clothes. Imagine yourself in Mrs Healy's shoes - you are aghast at this revelation and desperately seeking to account for it. The fact that your daughter is a doctor who sometimes comes into contact with dead bodies might account for it you think, mightn't it? You're no expert but you've been asked to comment by the world's media and it's the only thing you can think of to explain it (apart from the more sinister and unthinkable thought, which you instantly banish from your mind as quite impossible).
Of course some people can't imagine being in Mrs Healy's shoes at such a distressing revelation. They can only imagine a scenario in which Kate instructs her mother to tell lies on her behalf to get her off the hook.
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How about the Daily Mail then ?
An article written by Vanessa Allen ( a journalist always very 'supportive' 0f the McCanns ) on July 22 2008, is still available on line ( if anyone cares to link to it )
In that artice ( entitled 'The dodgy DNA evidence that lead to the McCanns being made suspects' ) Ms Allen states ;
"Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday"
So the claim was made in the mainstream British press too
Any reference as to who made the claim to the Daily Mail?
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The distance from the patio of 5a to the tapas restaurant is 50 metres and not 300 feet.
it also says the mccanns have won the libel case
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it also says the mccanns have won the libel case
No, what it states is this...
WALKER: And the lead detective in the case, the Portuguese detective was bounced off the case after about five months, God knows why, but he then went on to write a book saying that the McCanns were killers, and he made a half a million dollars from that book.
GRACE: I hope he was sued. Was he?
WALKER: Yes, he was.
GRACE: Was it successful?
WALKER: Yes.
It was successful to the extent that Amaral has had most of his income frozen for some time pending the libel courts decision and any appeals or counter sue cases that follow. Walker never stated they had won the case.
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How about the Daily Mail then ?
An article written by Vanessa Allen ( a journalist always very 'supportive' 0f the McCanns ) on July 22 2008, is still available on line ( if anyone cares to link to it )
In that artice ( entitled 'The dodgy DNA evidence that lead to the McCanns being made suspects' ) Ms Allen states ;
"Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday"
So the claim was made in the mainstream British press too
probably not true but it doesn't really matter...mccanns not suspects so everything else..unless new evidence...is grasping at straws, and there seems to be a lot of that going on
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No, what it states is this...
WALKER: And the lead detective in the case, the Portuguese detective was bounced off the case after about five months, God knows why, but he then went on to write a book saying that the McCanns were killers, and he made a half a million dollars from that book.
GRACE: I hope he was sued. Was he?
WALKER: Yes, he was.
GRACE: Was it successful?
WALKER: Yes.
It was successful to the extent that Amaral has had most of his income frozen for some time pending the libel courts decision and any appeals or counter sue cases that follow. Walker never stated they had won the case.
Walker states that Amaral was successfully sued. No "ifs" or "buts".
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The distance from the patio of 5a to the tapas restaurant is 50 metres and not 300 feet.
Exactly, Mr Moderator. The reporter couldn't even get the distance right. 8()(((@#
Thank God for Google Earth and the actual measure of a little over 50 metres instead of various false distances of up to 250 metres [IIRC.]
So many of the Mccann sceptics would not have been beating them up at every opportunity had they realised just how close they were. 8(8-))
Just who spread this disinformation, this propaganda, in the first place?
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The claim that the dog alerted to Kate's trousers and to cuddle cat were work related are in all probability genuine and were most likely made for all the right reasons. What is not known however is whether the comments were 'picked before they were shovelled'? Did Kate discuss it with her parents after having been infirmed if the dig reactions? Somehow I don't think this will ever be answered.
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Gerry McCanns' arguido interview:
During this interview several films of a forensic nature showing sniffer dogs were shown where their signalling can be seen regarding indication of cadaver odour and traces of blood also human, and only of a human nature, as well as the comments made by the expert in charge of the procedure.
-- After viewing the films and after the signalling of cadaver odour in their room next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa against the window in the living room, he says that he has no comments, neither has he any explanation for this fact.
--- Also, the dog that detects human blood signalled human blood behind the sofa mentioned above, he says that he cannot explain this fact.
-- Regarding the cadaver odour in the car that was rented at the end of May, (xx)-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.
--- Regarding the presence of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has not explanation for this fact.
-- When confronted with the fact that Madeleine's DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations also described before, he says that he cannot explain.
You missed out this part
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
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You missed out this part
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Kids commonly have nosebleeds.
And?
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Kids commonly have nosebleeds.
And?
Go on, have a stab at it yourself you know you want to.
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Kids commonly have nosebleeds.
And?
My kids get them quite a lot, need I say why?
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I already posted an illustrated example of how clothes may acquire alertable scent, without any knowledge whatsoever of, and without any guilt whatsoever of, the individual who owns the clothes.
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Suppose it is true that Kate's mother was asked by the media to account for the cadaver alerts to her daughter's clothes. Imagine yourself in Mrs Healy's shoes - you are aghast at this revelation and desperately seeking to account for it. The fact that your daughter is a doctor who sometimes comes into contact with dead bodies might account for it you think, mightn't it? You're no expert but you've been asked to comment by the world's media and it's the only thing you can think of to explain it (apart from the more sinister and unthinkable thought, which you instantly banish from your mind as quite impossible).
Of course some people can't imagine being in Mrs Healy's shoes at such a distressing revelation. They can only imagine a scenario in which Kate instructs her mother to tell lies on her behalf to get her off the hook.
There is no record that Kate McCann made the statement about being in contact with six dead bodies.
Nor is there any record of Mrs Healey either being instructed to make or making such a statement.
I believe the earliest referral to contact with six dead bodies was made according to the Maddie Case Files in Jornal de Noticias 8.9.07 post23067 from where it was picked up by the British press.
It is stated in
Maddie 129 … de Hernâni Carvalho, Luís Maia … Edição/reimpressão: 2007 … Launched in Portugal November 9th 2007 … Editor: Prime Books … ISBN: 9789898028617
Which was published long before the case was archived.
Also published before the case was archived it was stated in
A Estrela de Madeleine … de Paulo Pereira Cristóvão … Edição/reimpressão: 2008 Launched in Portugal March 19th 2008 …Páginas: 160 … Editor: Editorial Presença … ISBN: 9789722338905 … Coleção: Grandes Narrativas
In what must have been devastating news for Madeleine’s family that she might be dead, Gerry’s sister Philomena sounds perplexed when saying:
"He's going in at 2pm today.
But he's not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there's something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death.
How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeleine's case.
They're doctors, if there's a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?"
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id250.html