UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on April 19, 2014, 12:24:11 PM
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A look at the paths around Ocean Club Garden complex.
(http://i.imgur.com/8nsTwbH.jpg?1)
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"That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception." (GM)
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So which garden? There are various ways to analyse it.
IMO it must be one of these 11 gardens: 5B 5C 5D 5E 5F 4A 4B 4C 4D 4E 4F.
BTW those are the 11 gardens with gates on the alleyway.
Probably one can rule out 5B and 5D, so then there are 9
Possibly what fits "remote end" best is 4F garden as its gate is nearest to the alleyway termination.
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Photo looking west along culdesac alley on south side of block 4 (with six gardens on right)
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0479.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
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Photo looking west along culdesac alley on south side of block 4 (with six gardens on right)
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0479.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
Thanks for the pic Pegasus. Have you got one of the middle path between G5 and G4 looking north towards the car park?
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Thanks for the pic Pegasus. Have you got one of the middle path between G5 and G4 looking north towards the car park?
Here is one looking south from the carpark of block 5. On left is apartment 5F, on right is apartment 4A (above which BTW is apartment 4G).
But then, as you believe, I'm just a fantasist, I might just have fantasised these photos, or they may just be, "general talk" 8-)(--)
Hope the photo resoulution is good enough 8((()*/
BTW these excellemt photos are not by me they are by Bud Wichers to whom many thanks are due.
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_0477.jpg)
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Thank you Bud Wichers and thankyou Pegasus. Please use the slider to see the whole image.
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_0477.jpg)http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_0477.jpg
Interesting that there is a viewpoint from here of part of the Tapas Restaurant.
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Here is one looking south from the carpark of block 5. On left is apartment 5F, on right is apartment 4A (above which BTW is apartment 4G).
But then, as you believe, I'm just a fantasist, I might just have fantasised these photos, or they may just be, "general talk" 8-)(--)
Hope the photo resoulution is good enough 8((()*/
BTW these excellemt photos are not by me they are by Bud Wichers to whom many thanks are due.
http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_0477.jpg
Thanks for the info. This shot is interesting. Why wouldn't JT use this safer route? Look how wide the path is?
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0482.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
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Thanks for the info. This shot is interesting. Why wouldn't JT use this safer route? Look how wide the path is?
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_0482.jpg)
She wouldn't use it for two reasons that I can se. There maybe more that I haven't thought of.
1) It was rather dark and kinda isolated along the alleyway at night. especially for a woman
2) The families wouldn't want to leave an unlocked patio door in that darkness. Possible burglars? Remember, the Mccanns patio was unique in that it was well lit from the street lamp
3) The detour for the front doors of the rest of the tapas wasn't so far as the Mccanns, and it was well lit by their front doors
4) The Mccanns had to make a much longer detour than the others for their front door. It was also hidden out of sight and in virtual blackness. No light for putting the key ion the lock and quite spooky.
Their patio door was well lit, in view and so close. No sookiness.
No comparison to the situation of the others.
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She wouldn't use it for two reasons that I can se. There maybe more that I haven't thought of.
1) It was rather dark and kinda isolated along the alleyway at night. especially for a woman
2) The families wouldn't want to leave an unlocked patio door in that darkness. Possible burglars? Remember, the Mccanns patio was unique in that it was well lit from the street lamp
3) The detour for the front doors of the rest of the tapas wasn't so far as the Mccanns, and it was well lit by their front doors
4) The Mccanns had to make a much longer detour than the others for their front door. It was also hidden out of sight and in virtual blackness. No light for putting the key ion the lock and quite spooky.
Their patio door was well lit, in view and so close. No sookiness.
No comparison to the situation of the others.
I know she had to gain access to her apartment on the other/north side. How lit that path is would be interesting to know but it's a lot wider that I thought.
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Possibly because of this gate being locked? (apartment 5F) You can go though car park. How did Madeleine and the twins run to that garden after leaving 5A if that gate was there?
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0468.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
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I know she had to gain access to her apartment on the other/north side. How lit that path is would be interesting to know but it's a lot wider that I thought.
It was a dead end aparantly, altho it was possible to turn north between the two apartment blocks. Wide at its eastern end, where it met the road, but much narrower at its western end.
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It was a dead end aparantly, altho it was possible to turn north between the two apartment blocks. Wide at its eastern end, where it met the road, but much narrower at its western end.
"It was a dead end apparently"
What do you mean by "apparently" ?
Either you know that path was a dead end, or you do not
Please stop presenting information to the forum for which you have no evidence
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"It was a dead end apparently"
What do you mean by "apparently" ?
Either you know that path was a dead end, or you do not
Please stop presenting information to the forum for which you have no evidence
You want her to take a vow of silence ?? Bliss 8(0(*
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It was a dead end apparantly...
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0479.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
This photo is looking west, block G4 is on right, yes this part of the alleyway is a dead-end, you can see the wall at the end, although IMO it might be possible to climb over the end wall onto the street beyond which is Rua 1 Maio.
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(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0479.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
This photo is looking west, block G4 is on right, yes this part of the alleyway is a dead-end, you can see the wall at the end, although IMO it might be possible to climb over the end wall onto the street beyond which is Rua 1 Maio.
Thank you Pegasus. It is good to have a fair poster on your side. I also am fair.
For Icabod, I have not walked that path, but I had picked up from Google Earth that the path did NOT exit at the western end. However, I was being ultra cautious. I did not want to put out disinformation.
Why dont you try looking at GE Icabod?
With the difference in ground levels and the photograph, it appears that when going west it is quite a tall wall blanking it off from Rua 1 Maio, along with a dense hedge. No doubt possible to climb for the determined ... but very difficult, imo.
I would have thought it easier to scale from the higher Rua 1 Maio and jump down on to the alleyway, than to climb from the alleyway up to the Rua 1 Maio.
Contrary to all the speculation on this forum, this footpath was not a public highway, it was just the way to the back doors of all the apartments that backed on to it. As you can see it is unlit, hence the reluctance to use it at night. You can see the apartment gates in the right hand wall.
The wall on the left, which is at the northern boundary of the Tapas gardens, is presumably there for a number of reasons, some of which I could list if wished.
The whole area, frontage parking, apartments, this pathway and the Tapas gardens and restuarant etc are one with no public thru way per se.
[... post moderated ...]
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No doubt possible to climb for the determined ... but very difficult, imo.
I would have thought it easier to scale from the higher Rua 1 Maio and jump down on to the alleyway, than to climb from the alleyway up to the Rua 1 Maio. ...
Yes the levels are different. The pavement of Rua 1 Maio is only about half a metre below the top of the alley endwall. For those who have computer good to show streetview here is the wall viewed from the Rua 1 Maio side
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.088083,-8.731758&spn=0.00066,0.001234&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=37.088158,-8.73179&panoid=41YcDwxyyhIiG9ylhgU6WQ&cbp=12,69.79,,0,10.47
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Yes the levels are different. The pavement of Rua 1 Maio is only about half a metre below the top of the alley endwall. For those who have computer good to show streetview here is the wall viewed from the Rua 1 Maio side
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.088083,-8.731758&spn=0.00066,0.001234&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=37.088158,-8.73179&panoid=41YcDwxyyhIiG9ylhgU6WQ&cbp=12,69.79,,0,10.47
Yep, and if you look at the nearest buildings behind, you can see that a lot of the bottom part of the build is missing from view. That is because the property is built on a hill , just the same as at the eastern end where 5A is.
Remember all the steps up, through the back garden, to the patio area of 5A? Well the front of the building has no steps up and as we all know the floors inside are flat and horizontal. There must be a difference in ground level, front to back of 5A, of some 6 feet (0.9 metres).
Maybe the same difference of levels at the western end of the alleyway or maybe a tadge less? We dont know, but it is a considerable difference.
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The whole area, frontage parking, apartments, this pathway and the Tapas gardens and restuarant etc are one with no public thru way per se.
That's not true is it ?
Halfway down that path there is another path which turns right and leads directly to the carpark in front of the McCanns' apartment
It is freely accessible to the public
In fact, it is this very route that the five experts on the Dispatches programme said any abductor would probably have taken
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That's not true is it ?
Halfway down that path there is another path which turns right and leads directly to the carpark in front of the McCanns' apartment
It is freely accessible to the public
In fact, it is this very route that the five experts on the Dispatches programme said any abductor would probably have taken
Yes take that path route between G5 & G4 and you can go through the other car park at G4, exit car park and cross the road to north of wasteland, follow that road down and you come to the Smithman sighting. And possibly caught on the camera Amaral was furious about his team missing.
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Please note this is a new thread.
I have added a location plan which should assist readers.
(http://i.imgur.com/8nsTwbH.jpg?1)
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sadie
The whole area, frontage parking, apartments, this pathway and the Tapas gardens and restuarant etc are one with no public thru way per se.
That's not true is it ?
Halfway down that path there is another path which turns right and leads directly to the carpark in front of the McCanns' apartment
It is freely accessible to the public
It is accessable to the public, yes, but who in the public would want to take a longer route and to circle all the way back to the Mccanns apartment, unless they were up to no good (or the Mccanns themselves on a leisurely stroll)? It is also true that the public could go thru the other path and go across the adjoining car park to Rua Agostinho.
But it would be no advantageat all to do so, rather intrusive to the residents, take some courage to walk through there where they might be challenged etc. And after dark it would be pitch black ... no lights at all ... so it was a no go area for most
For all intents and purposes it was a no through way cos non residents used the pavements on the roads. Would take a cheeky person to go thru, but you are quite right, it was possible
As I said:
The whole area, frontage parking, apartments, this pathway and the Tapas gardens and restuarant etc are one with no public thru way per se ... cos it wasn't used as such
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Thanks for the info. This shot is interesting. Why wouldn't JT use this safer route? Look how wide the path is?
(http://sojo-adventures.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/img_0482.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
No lighting after dark, so:
1) spooky
2) with no lighting no-one would want to leave their patio door unlocked for access.... burglars invitation
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Yes take that path route between G5 & G4 and you can go through the other car park at G4, exit car park and cross the road to north of wasteland, follow that road down and you come to the Smithman sighting. And possibly caught on the camera Amaral was furious about his team missing.
That is quite correct pathfinder.. But it seems likely that the abductor would have exited via the front door NOT by the lit and overlooked patio door. Amaral said that too.
So if the abductor had intended at the time to go west all he had to do was go west acroos the rest of G5 car park, thru the gap and into G4 car park. Cross that, risk a bit of exposire on Rua Agostinha, cross Rua 1 Maio and bingo he would have been at the north end of Rua d'Escola.
I fully understand what you are getting at! 8)--))
Poor Gerry to have all this rubbish thrown at him.
Lucky for him that he has people who witnessed him searching in the tapas area, and Raj and Neil. There is someone else who saw him, but I have temporarily forgotten who
.... and do you think it is strange that the only witness statements that could save him from these awful thoughts you are having, have been ermmm, "lost" ?! .... >@@(*&)
..... Hmmm, do you wonder why only the Raj and Neil and Caroline Carpenter statements have gone missing? ... >@@(*&). These are the very statements that verify the time of the start of the search and where Gerry was in the early minutes of the search.
They are his alibi ... do you think it is strange that they are ALL missing?
Of course this will make no difference to SY. Especially as these statements have mysteriously vanished, they will make a point of personally interviewing Raj and Neil and ascertain the time they spoke with Gerry.
But how different, might it have been, had Amaral still have been in charge?
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"That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception." (GM)
Is it possible to go directly from the west end of the carpark of block 4, around the west end of block G4, into the garden of apartment 4F ???
If so that would fit the way the childrens' route is described above.
West along north side of block 5 and along north side of block 4, then around the west end of block 4, into garden of apartment 4F, and then out 4F garden gate into the cul-de-sac section of alleyway, then east along alleyway.
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Yes take that path route between G5 & G4 and you can go through the other car park at G4, exit car park and cross the road to north of wasteland, follow that road down and you come to the Smithman sighting. And possibly caught on the camera Amaral was furious about his team missing.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2mpwo5i.jpg)
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"That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception." (GM)
Is it possible to go directly from the west end of the carpark of block 4, around the west end of block G4, into the garden of apartment 4F ???
If so that would fit the way the childrens' route is described above.
West along north side of block 5 and along north side of block 4, then around the west end of block 4, into garden of apartment 4F, and then out 4F garden gate into the cul-de-sac section of alleyway, then east along alleyway.
Is it possible to go directly from the west end of the carpark of block 4, around the west end of block G4, into the garden of apartment 4F ???
it is difficult to tell Pegasus, because when it is enlarged too much the image goes fuzzy, but there does seem to be a very narrow way thru. I wouldn't like to swear to it tho.
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That is quite correct pathfinder.. But it seems likely that the abductor would have exited via the front door NOT by the lit and overlooked patio door. Amaral said that too.
So if the abductor had intended at the time to go west all he had to do was go west acroos the rest of G5 car park, thru the gap and into G4 car park. Cross that, risk a bit of exposire on Rua Agostinha, cross Rua 1 Maio and bingo he would have been at the north end of Rua d'Escola.
I fully understand what you are getting at! 8)--))
Poor Gerry to have all this rubbish thrown at him.
Lucky for him that he has people who witnessed him searching in the tapas area, and Raj and Neil. There is someone else who saw him, but I have temporarily forgotten who
.... and do you think it is strange that the only witness statements that could save him from these awful thoughts you are having, have been ermmm, "lost" ?! .... >@@(*&)
..... Hmmm, do you wonder why only the Raj and Neil and Caroline Carpenter statements have gone missing? ... >@@(*&). These are the very statements that verify the time of the start of the search and where Gerry was in the early minutes of the search.
They are his alibi ... do you think it is strange that they are ALL missing?
Of course this will make no difference to SY. Especially as these statements have mysteriously vanished, they will make a point of personally interviewing Raj and Neil and ascertain the time they spoke with Gerry.
But how different, might it have been, had Amaral still have been in charge?
Why do yo think that the police force who took Raj and Neil's statemnets wouldn't share them with SY?
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Is it possible to walk from block 4 carpark, directly to garden of 4F ?
This aerial view IMO shows there is a gap, between the west end of building 4, and the boundary wall:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.088293,-8.731737&spn=0.000615,0.001206&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=h&z=20
This streetview photo, looking east from Rua 1 Maio, also indicates IMO there is a gap, because one can see that the block 4 building does not extend all the way to the boundary wall with fence on top.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.08832,-8.731854&spn=0.000615,0.001206&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=37.088266,-8.731835&panoid=X6hi9TmYxg2JdA9lo6ll-g&cbp=12,71.12,,0,11.91
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"the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crèches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins."
Madeleine and the twins had to turn left after leaving 5A but they would be blocked by the gate at 5F. They would have
to open the gate which leads you to the middle path between G5 & G4.
"they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back."
That had to be G4 and it sounds like the north but is probably the opposite side - back narrow path on the ocean club pool side. It's possibly the end garden next to dead end. Did any of the tracking dogs go to a G4 garden?
"Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception."
That's easy- the path on ocean club pool side which leads you around to reception/tapas bar entrance.
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Agreed its likely the garden into which the 3 children got is IMO the garden of one of the six ground floor apartments of block G4. From east to west they are 4A 4B 4C 4D 4E 4F.
From the way it is described, it sounds like maybe they went along the north side of block G4 and around the west extremity of block G4, (and I am leaning towards that instead of the alleyway between G5 and G4). IMO it may be possible (although I am not certain) to pass between the western end of block G4 and the boundary wall. Maybe if the end apartment was that week unoccupied and a possible gate leading from G4 carpark was left open. If so that would automatically mean the end garden would be the one they got into, but I am not certain and I may be wrong. Interesting anyway for it would define a nearby place that has been gone to before.