UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Brietta on April 22, 2014, 07:02:22 PM
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I find it rather strange that the Portuguese authorities seem to be dragging their heels as far as the letters of request are concerned.
Surely it is in everyone’s interest to have Madeleine McCann’s case progressed hopefully to a conclusion.
It is my understanding that if NSY are given the necessary permissions to question people in the Portuguese jurisdiction this will be done under the lead of the Portuguese police who will be present at all times.
IMO it makes sense because the presence of the Portuguese professionals will ensure that everything is done to the letter of Portuguese law, just as NSY would advise on British laws in their jurisdiction.
It is known as co-operation.
I see no problem in getting it into operation as a matter of urgency.
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I'm sure the Portuguese will ensure that the system works exactly as it would if it were the Portuguese police wanting to operate in UK.
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I find it rather strange that the Portuguese authorities seem to be dragging their heels as far as the letters of request are concerned.
Surely it is in everyone’s interest to have Madeleine McCann’s case progressed hopefully to a conclusion.
It is my understanding that if NSY are given the necessary permissions to question people in the Portuguese jurisdiction this will be done under the lead of the Portuguese police who will be present at all times.
IMO it makes sense because the presence of the Portuguese professionals will ensure that everything is done to the letter of Portuguese law, just as NSY would advise on British laws in their jurisdiction.
It is known as co-operation.
I see no problem in getting it into operation as a matter of urgency.
What happened to cooperation Brietta when the PJ requested information/assistance from the Leicestershire Police ?
Has it crossed your mind that the people SY want to 'interview' have already been questioned and eliminated ?
It is also quite possible the PJ know full well there is no evidence of abduction, and the case is going nowhere, and, they have been told to 'cooperate' by their political masters, and please don't say there hasn't been political influence in this case, because there damn well has.
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What happened to cooperation Brietta when the PJ requested information/assistance from the Leicestershire Police ?
Has it crossed your mind that the people SY want to 'interview' have already been questioned and eliminated ?
It is also quite possible the PJ know full well there is no evidence of abduction, and the case is going nowhere, and, they have been told to 'cooperate' by their political masters, and please don't say there hasn't been political influence in this case, because there damn well has.
depends what you mean by political interference. there been no interference in the judicial system of Portugal ...there has been pressure applied to the govt to make money available for SY to review the evidence.
What will happen if the SY don't get the cooperation they are entitled to?...then I think we will see GOVT pressure to get things moving...and quite rightly. What a disgrace if the SY investigation into Maddie's disappearance is hampered by the Portuguese...the UK won't stand for it
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depends what you mean by political interference. there been no interference in the judicial system of Portugal ...there has been pressure applied to the govt to make money available for SY to review the evidence.
What will happen if the SY don't get the cooperation they are entitled to?...then I think we will see GOVT pressure to get things moving...and quite rightly. What a disgrace if the SY investigation into Maddie's disappearance is hampered by the Portuguese...the UK won't stand for it
Blair and especially Brown, were involved, till they backed off from the scene, and it well known Brown talked to Socrates on the case.
Won't stand for it ???
Don't make me laugh.
Just like the UK government stand up to THE U.S.A. ?
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Blair and especially Brown, were involved, till they backed off from the scene, and it well known Brown talked to Socrates on the case.
Won't stand for it ???
Don't make me laugh.
Just like the UK government stand up to THE U.S.A. ?
Blair and Brown involved in what way...telling the portuguese govt to get amaral out of the pub
portugal are not the usa and they are in the EU and governed by their laws
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What happened to cooperation Brietta when the PJ requested information/assistance from the Leicestershire Police ?
Has it crossed your mind that the people SY want to 'interview' have already been questioned and eliminated ?
It is also quite possible the PJ know full well there is no evidence of abduction, and the case is going nowhere, and, they have been told to 'cooperate' by their political masters, and please don't say there hasn't been political influence in this case, because there damn well has.
Agreed, Stephen it is a very political case and always has been.
Portugal is a member of the European Union and as such is signatory to certain conventions.
It will be interesting to see how that pans out.
In the interim, I think you have a very low opinion of the standard of the PJ investigation when you insinuate they are simulating it to placate their ‘political masters’.
Please bear in mind the present PJ team provided the fresh evidence which enabled Madeleine’s case to be re-opened in Portugal.
1959 and 2000 conventions both relevant, and each to be cited in a letter of request:
the 23 Member States of the European Union which have ratified both conventions:
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom;
Iceland and Norway.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/obtaining_evidence_and_information_from_abroad/
Refusal of assistance
Nearly all legal instruments (treaties, conventions and memoranda of understanding) specify grounds upon which a request may be refused, either in totality or certain aspects only. The decision will be for the requested authority to make.
If assistance is refused there is usually little, if any, scope for negotiation.
Common grounds for refusing a request include the following:
The offence under investigation is deemed a political offence;
The legal principle ne bis in idem (double jeopardy) may be offended;
The offence concerned is covered by an amnesty in the requested state;
The age of the offender is under the age of legal responsibility in the requested state;
The requested measure cannot be legally authorised in the requested state;
If undertaking the request could compromise an investigation or proceedings in the requested state.
In practice, refusal is rare and is most likely to occur simply because the request cannot be executed at all, perhaps due to insufficient information to establish the whereabouts of the evidence or a witness.
However, prosecutors must remember that practical issues including costs and the availability of resources may affect how, if at all, a request can be undertaken. If the request is complex, vague, too wide in its scope, or imposes unreasonable deadlines, these factors could all have a negative affect on the successful completion of the request.
For further information see the relevant legal instruments pursuant to which the request is made. See Annex A for the most relevant treaties and conventions. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/obtaining_evidence_and_information_from_abroad/
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depends what you mean by political interference. there been no interference in the judicial system of Portugal ...there has been pressure applied to the govt to make money available for SY to review the evidence.
What will happen if the SY don't get the cooperation they are entitled to?...then I think we will see GOVT pressure to get things moving...and quite rightly. What a disgrace if the SY investigation into Maddie's disappearance is hampered by the Portuguese...the UK won't stand for it
I think there will be repercussions of some kind if assistance is refused to allow NSY to pursue the lines of inquiry they need to.
It is quite bizarre that people seem to be reluctant to take the best shot we have of solving the case of a missing British child.
Is there a fear of what we will find out?
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I think there will be repercussions of some kind if assistance is refused to allow NSY to pursue the lines of inquiry they need to.
It is quite bizarre that people seem to be reluctant to take the best shot we have of solving the case of a missing British child.
Is there a fear of what we will find out?
With Casa Pia the elites that were mentioned in the early stages weren't even prosecuted and their names were dropped IIRC. Just a handful of smaller fry were prosecuted.
Seems to me that some mighty big fish in PT might have an interest in this case NOT coming to Court. Now is it just patriotic pride, support the poor PJ or is it something altogether more sinister?
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With Casa Pia the elites that were mentioned in the early stages weren't even prosecuted and their names were dropped IIRC. Just a handful of smaller fry were prosecuted.
Seems to me that some mighty big fish in PT might have an interest in this case NOT coming to Court. Now is it just patriotic pride, support the poor PJ or is it something altogether more sinister?
I have great sympathy with those comments Sadie. Not that I am surprised though since it was a fascist State for 41 years and which only ceased to be one in 1974. It takes a while for the secret police mentality to be got rid of completely, no wonder many within the population will never volunteer information.
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Once a police investigation has been politicised it is almost impossible to 'un'-politicise it
The Hillsborough investigation is a classic example
The McCann case was politicised very early on with the secondment to the Foreign Office of the Government's head of Media Monitoring Clarence Mitchell
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Once a police investigation has been politicised it is almost impossible to 'un'-politicise it
The Hillsborough investigation is a classic example
The McCann case was politicised very early on with the secondment to the Foreign Office of the Government's head of Media Monitoring Clarence Mitchell
Aw, come on ! 8**8:/:
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Is there still political interference in the Madeleine McCann case?
Yes, there is.
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What happened to cooperation Brietta when the PJ requested information/assistance from the Leicestershire Police ?
Has it crossed your mind that the people SY want to 'interview' have already been questioned and eliminated ?
It is also quite possible the PJ know full well there is no evidence of abduction, and the case is going nowhere, and, they have been told to 'cooperate' by their political masters, and please don't say there hasn't been political influence in this case, because there damn well has.
Such political interference in a case is disgusting.
When a police force such as the PJ is "told to 'co-operate' by their political masters we know that country is utterly corrupt. Your belief that the PJ may simply be the puppets of such political interference is clear but what is the motive for the Portuguese Politicians to deny justice to a missing little girl?
How do you explain that these supposedly upright men and women of the PJ simply kow tow to such disgraceful political manipulation?
As for your claim that there has been any other kind of political manipulation (by Blair or Brown for example) can you provide us with some evidence or are you just guessing again? We are told there was a conversation between Brown and Socrates but do you by any chance know the content of that conversation or are you just guessing as to what was said? Don't you think it normal in such a high profile case that it might be casually mentioned by two national leaders when meeting or is that simply not conspiratorial enough for you? Personally, I would be shocked if Brown had not mentioned the case and asked how things were progressing.
I await some actual evidence from you with much anticipation, though I don't expect you will manage to provide any.
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Is there still political interference in the Madeleine McCann case?
Yes, there is.
Prove it or at least offer evidence for your claim or be seen to be a WUM without any actual ability to contribute to the debate here.
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Prove it or at least offer evidence for your claim or be seen to be a WUM without any actual ability to contribute to the debate here.
IMO
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Is there still political interference in the Madeleine McCann case?
Yes, there is.
I’m unsure as to what is considered political interference when it involves nationals who find themselves in distress while abroad.
There can be fewer instances of the requirement for essential assistance being offered than in the case of a missing child and protocols are revised constantly to take in changing British lifestyles and events such as terrorist atrocities abroad.
From the slight knowledge I have of the consular assistance given at the time of Ben Needham’s disappearance, I think the assistance given to his family was inadequate.
Hopefully after review of what did and didn’t happen in Greece changes had occurred by 2007 when Madeleine’s parents needed help and advice.
See - Consular Services to British Nationals - which intimates all procedures are subject to update and change.
http://www.nao.org.uk/report/consular-services-to-british-nationals/
The Drs McCann campaign to keep Madeleine in the public eye and their campaign to have Madeleine’s case re-opened with open letters to the PM was in my opinion highly political.
The personal involvement of the Home Secretary was IMO political.
There can be little doubt there were political considerations given to re-opening the case in Portugal when the evidence allowing it was presented by the investigating PJ officers.
IMO anything which is going to cost a State a lot of money is political.
IMO if there was no political input to cases such as that of British citizen Madeleine McCann the British State could be considered to be in default.
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I’m unsure as to what is considered political interference when it involves nationals who find themselves in distress while abroad.
There can be fewer instances of the requirement for essential assistance being offered than in the case of a missing child and protocols are revised constantly to take in changing British lifestyles and events such as terrorist atrocities abroad.
From the slight knowledge I have of the consular assistance given at the time of Ben Needham’s disappearance, I think the assistance given to his family was inadequate.
Hopefully after review of what did and didn’t happen in Greece changes had occurred by 2007 when Madeleine’s parents needed help and advice.
See - Consular Services to British Nationals - which intimates all procedures are subject to update and change.
http://www.nao.org.uk/report/consular-services-to-british-nationals/
The Drs McCann campaign to keep Madeleine in the public eye and their campaign to have Madeleine’s case re-opened with open letters to the PM was in my opinion highly political.
The personal involvement of the Home Secretary was IMO political.
There can be little doubt there were political considerations given to re-opening the case in Portugal when the evidence allowing it was presented by the investigating PJ officers.
IMO anything which is going to cost a State a lot of money is political.
IMO if there was no political input to cases such as that of British citizen Madeleine McCann the British State could be considered to be in default.
8((()*/
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When the victims father was an associate of the then British Prime Minister's brother, the opportunity for political involvement was huge.