UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: gilet on April 26, 2014, 12:04:37 AM
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Maddie McCann's parents:
''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"
Apr 25, 2014 22:31
By Tracey Kandohla
Kate and Gerry McCann are so encouraged by Scotland Yard’s fresh leads that they will not seek for a Certificate of Presumed Death
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/Parents-of-Madeleine-McCann-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann_zps7bd7b432.jpg)
Still hopeful: Kate and Gerry McCann
Madeleine McCann’s parents have chosen not to apply for a death certificate – despite being entitled to one on the seventh anniversary of her disappearance next weekend.
Kate and Gerry McCann are so encouraged by Scotland Yard’s fresh leads into her disappearance that they will not seek for a Certificate of Presumed Death which applies after that period.
And they are so convinced Madeleine is still alive they are instead stepping up their efforts to find their daughter.
Her gran Susan Healy told the Mirror yesterday: “She could be found.”
And Kate herself has previously said: “Madeleine is still alive until someone proves otherwise.”
A person can legally be declared dead after seven years under British law despite the absence of direct proof of the victim’s death. But friends of the couple, from Rothley, Leics, said that was the “last thing on their minds” as they prepare for next Saturday’s grim milestone.
Their hopes of finding Madeleine, who would now be 10, have been boosted in recent months by the progress of a British police probe.
Scotland Yard detectives are believed to be poised for a breakthrough after their own three-year review that sparked a fresh investigation.
New evidence has come to light of a sex attack on a British girl of 10 in Praia da Luz two years before Madeleine disappeared there. It is one of five new Algarve assaults uncovered by senior British detectives.
Madeleine vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment in the Portuguese resort on May 03, 2007, just nine days short of her fourth birthday.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/Madeleine-McCanna_zps4c350dc7.jpg)
Madeleine McCann
Despite no confirmed sightings of the youngster since that fateful night, Kate and Gerry cling to the hope she will be found alive.
Former GP Kate has said: “There is nothing to suggest Madeleine is not alive. We have to keep looking for her.
“We still have real hope. We all know cases of missing children, presumed dead and found alive years, sometimes decades, later.”
Kate has told how she had been “buoyed” by the efforts of Met Police and “relieved” the case had been reopened in Portugal.
Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said last night: “Kate and Gerry are fully aware of the declaration of death. They still believe Madeleine is alive and are not applying for a certificate presuming she is dead. That is the last thing on their minds.”
The Presumption of Death Act, due to be reformed in October following a campaign, is based on a seven-year rule.
A Ministry of Justice spokesman said: “If after seven years a person is still missing and there has been no sight or contact with them, they are presumed dead.
“The family can then apply for a Certificate of Presumed Death from a court which allows them to help resolve that person’s affairs or simply to help give them some closure.
“This can be done without a body being found. No-one can prepare for the heartache and confusion which arises when a loved one disappears with no trace.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/maddie-mccanns-parents-we-wont-3459122
No parent would ever, in my opinion, give up the hope (no matter how big or small that hope might be) that their missing child would one day come home to them.
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I would hope that the McCanns are realistic enough to understand that Madeleine, if she were ever to be found alive, will be nothing like the 3 year old that they lost.
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If I knew my kid was dead, but was pretending that I didn't, I reckon I would be saying...
"The kid is still alive until someone proves otherwise.”
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I would hope that the McCanns are realistic enough to understand that Madeleine, if she were ever to be found alive, will be nothing like the 3 year old that they lost.
the mcanns and mcann supporters have a fantasy that maddie is alive and well and unharmed we who dont deny the real world know if maddie is still alive she would not be alive and unharmed she would be a damaged child imo
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the mcanns and mcann supporters have a fantasy that maddie is alive and well and unharmed we who dont deny the real world know if maddie is still alive she would not be alive and unharmed she would be a damaged child imo
Is the logic to that statement, carlymichelle, that we never bother to look for a missing child because should s/he be returned they will have suffered damage?
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It seems to me that people need to be cautious what they wish for as they may not want to face the reality.
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the mcanns and mcann supporters have a fantasy that maddie is alive and well and unharmed we who dont deny the real world know if maddie is still alive she would not be alive and unharmed she would be a damaged child imo
Following that logic, the children / adolescents who have been rescued alive over time should have been left to die?
What if someone had taken you, Carly? Would you have preferred to be rescued or left to starve in a dungeon somewhere? Wouldn't you have kept hoping that your family and friends still had hope that you were alive and were trying to find you?
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Following that logic, the children / adolescents who have been rescued alive over time should have been left to die?
What if someone had taken you, Carly? Would you have preferred to be rescued or left to starve in a dungeon somewhere? Wouldn't you have kept hoping that your family and friends still had hope that you were alive and were trying to find you?
Given the scenario you have just described, would it not depend upon the age of the child ? One taken at aged 3 would very soon have no recollection of any family - life would be just what it was.
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I think that faced with the reality of a severely mentally and possibility physically damaged individual being returned, I would be very wary, as such an act might totally destroy a family.
Are you seriously saying that you wouldn't want your missing child found alive as it might disrupt the new status quo?
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Are you seriously saying that you wouldn't want your missing child found alive as it might disrupt the new status quo?
I'm saying it is something that one would need to consider very carefully, as it may be in nobody's best interest.
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I'm saying it is something that one would need to consider very carefully, as it may be in nobody's best interest.
The alternative being?
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The alternative being?
Possibly some sort of institutionalised care.
Would obviously depend upon circumstances and time-scale, but one should not assume that finding Madeleine would necessarily lead to some rosy happy ever after situation.
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Possibly some sort of institutionalised care.
Would obviously depend upon circumstances and time-scale, but one should not assume that finding Madeleine would necessarily lead to some rosy happy ever after situation.
I think you are totally mistaken in mentioning 'institutionalised' care.
The majority of returned kidnap victims we know about have adjusted very well to re-joining the community, obviously with initial and continuing support.
The only victim of whom I am aware who did not wish contact with her family was the one whose family gave up on her and did not search.
I also think each case should be judged on its merits with the people best placed to make such decisions based on all the information to hand, doing so.
If and when Madeleine is found alive, bear in mind that as a Ward of Court, her interests will be well represented.
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I think you are totally mistaken in mentioning 'institutionalised' care.
The majority of returned kidnap victims we know about have adjusted very well to re-joining the community, obviously with initial and continuing support.
The only victim of whom I am aware who did not wish contact with her family was the one whose family gave up on her and did not search.
I also think each case should be judged on its merits with the people best placed to make such decisions based on all the information to hand, doing so.
If and when Madeleine is found alive, bear in mind that as a Ward of Court, her interests will be well represented.
I agree entirely. No automatic assumptions should be made.
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Maddie McCann's parents:
''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"
Apr 25, 2014 22:31
By Tracey Kandohla
Kate and Gerry McCann are so encouraged by Scotland Yard’s fresh leads that they will not seek for a Certificate of Presumed Death
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/Parents-of-Madeleine-McCann-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann_zps7bd7b432.jpg)
Still hopeful: Kate and Gerry McCann
Madeleine McCann’s parents have chosen not to apply for a death certificate – despite being entitled to one on the seventh anniversary of her disappearance next weekend.
Kate and Gerry McCann are so encouraged by Scotland Yard’s fresh leads into her disappearance that they will not seek for a Certificate of Presumed Death which applies after that period.
And they are so convinced Madeleine is still alive they are instead stepping up their efforts to find their daughter.
Her gran Susan Healy told the Mirror yesterday: “She could be found.”
And Kate herself has previously said: “Madeleine is still alive until someone proves otherwise.”
A person can legally be declared dead after seven years under British law despite the absence of direct proof of the victim’s death. But friends of the couple, from Rothley, Leics, said that was the “last thing on their minds” as they prepare for next Saturday’s grim milestone.
Their hopes of finding Madeleine, who would now be 10, have been boosted in recent months by the progress of a British police probe.
Scotland Yard detectives are believed to be poised for a breakthrough after their own three-year review that sparked a fresh investigation.
New evidence has come to light of a sex attack on a British girl of 10 in Praia da Luz two years before Madeleine disappeared there. It is one of five new Algarve assaults uncovered by senior British detectives.
Madeleine vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment in the Portuguese resort on May 03, 2007, just nine days short of her fourth birthday.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/Madeleine-McCanna_zps4c350dc7.jpg)
Madeleine McCann
Despite no confirmed sightings of the youngster since that fateful night, Kate and Gerry cling to the hope she will be found alive.
Former GP Kate has said: “There is nothing to suggest Madeleine is not alive. We have to keep looking for her.
“We still have real hope. We all know cases of missing children, presumed dead and found alive years, sometimes decades, later.”
Kate has told how she had been “buoyed” by the efforts of Met Police and “relieved” the case had been reopened in Portugal.
Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said last night: “Kate and Gerry are fully aware of the declaration of death. They still believe Madeleine is alive and are not applying for a certificate presuming she is dead. That is the last thing on their minds.”
The Presumption of Death Act, due to be reformed in October following a campaign, is based on a seven-year rule.
A Ministry of Justice spokesman said: “If after seven years a person is still missing and there has been no sight or contact with them, they are presumed dead.
“The family can then apply for a Certificate of Presumed Death from a court which allows them to help resolve that person’s affairs or simply to help give them some closure.
“This can be done without a body being found. No-one can prepare for the heartache and confusion which arises when a loved one disappears with no trace.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/maddie-mccanns-parents-we-wont-3459122
No parent would ever, in my opinion, give up the hope (no matter how big or small that hope might be) that their missing child would one day come home to them.
This from the newspaper which called the Portuguese, and I quote, 'sardine munchers'.
Enough said.
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This from the newspaper which called the Portuguese, and I quote, 'sardine munchers'.
Enough said.
best of luck to Kate and Gerry in their continued campaign to find Maddie
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Possibly some sort of institutionalised care.
Would obviously depend upon circumstances and time-scale, but one should not assume that finding Madeleine would necessarily lead to some rosy happy ever after situation.
So rescued victims such as Jaycee and her children or Natascha, or the Dutroux victims, or the latest American girls should have been swept under the carpet forever?
What if YOU disappeared one evening and were held captive? Would you accept that your family should stop looking for you? Would you accept that your family hoped that you had died? And if you were eventually found, that you should be placed in a psychiatric hospital for the rest of your life as your reappearance might disturb the new status quo?
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best of luck to Kate and Gerry in their continued campaign to find Maddie
Do you condemn the mirror's xenophobia ?
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Possibly - I might be too disturbed to care.
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Do you condemn the mirror's xenophobia ?
Xenophobia on both sides...why should I support the sardine munchers
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Xenophobia on both sides...why should I support the sardine munchers
No there wasn't.
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Possibly - I might be too disturbed to care.
What about? You as the missing person or you as the family member?
Ok. So if you'd been moved from a dungeon to a psychiatric ward forever, you'd be okay with that? Even if your dreams of finding your family again had kept you alive? And you'd find it perfectly acceptable to assume that your family had moved on and didn't actually want you back as you might have disturbed the new status quo?
I find that bizarre, to be honest. Life will never be the same for a family whose loved one has disappeared, even if it's temporary.
I feel terribly sorry for the latest major accidents over the sea as the families involved may never actually find proof that their loved ones will not come home.
That is still different from someone simply vanishing on dry land and the local police force simply assuming that your family had "dunnit".
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What about? You as the missing person or you as the family member?
Me as the missing person, which was what you asked.
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As we approach the 7-year milestone of Madeleine's disappearance I find it very hard to believe that there will ever be a good outcome in this case. Reference is made in the opening post article to the latest news of another young girl being abused and of progress by Redwood and Scotland Yard. What flipping progress?
All they have managed to achieve is the raking over old ground. They have turned up feck all of any significance, that is the brutal truth.
If Madeleine is still alive she will be unique in that she will have defied the norm. Young children who are abducted by strangers are either never found or are found dead.
I also wonder if the McCann's refusal to seek a death certificate is connected with the live libel trial in Lisbon?
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As we approach the 7-year milestone of Madeleine's disappearance I find it very hard to believe that there will ever be a good outcome in this case. Reference is made in the opening post article to the latest news of another young girl being abused and of progress by Redwood and Scotland Yard. What flipping progress?
All they have managed to achieve is the raking over old ground. They have turned up feck all of any significance, that is the brutal truth.
If Madeleine is still alive she will be unique in that she will have defied the norm. Young children who are abducted by strangers are either never found or are found dead.
IF she is still alive, I can't even bear to contemplate what the last 7 years have been like for her.
What's that saying? something like "give me the child tell he's 7 and I'll show you the man"
She'll have spent more than half her life and the most formative years at that in circumstances that would cripple a fully formed personality.
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IF she is still alive, I can't even bear to contemplate what the last 7 years have been like for her.
What's that saying? something like "give me the child tell he's 7 and I'll show you the man"
She'll have spent more than half her life and the most formative years at that in circumstances that would cripple a fully formed personality.
There are only two possibilities that I can see in this case...
i) She is dead and her remains are still in the Algarve.
ii) She was taken out of the country and has a new identity.
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So rescued victims such as Jaycee and her children or Natascha, or the Dutroux victims, or the latest American girls should have been swept under the carpet forever?
What if YOU disappeared one evening and were held captive? Would you accept that your family should stop looking for you? Would you accept that your family hoped that you had died? And if you were eventually found, that you should be placed in a psychiatric hospital for the rest of your life as your reappearance might disturb the new status quo?
IMO most of the long term kidnapped children who are discovered are not actually rescued but either escape or are uncovered as part of another activity. As to their families actively searching for them at that time, hmmmm.
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As we approach the 7-year milestone of Madeleine's disappearance I find it very hard to believe that there will ever be a good outcome in this case. Reference is made in the opening post article to the latest news of another young girl being abused and of progress by Redwood and Scotland Yard. What flipping progress?
All they have managed to achieve is the raking over old ground. They have turned up feck all of any significance, that is the brutal truth.
If Madeleine is still alive she will be unique in that she will have defied the norm. Young children who are abducted by strangers are either never found or are found dead.
I also wonder if the McCann's refusal to seek a death certificate is connected with the live libel trial in Lisbon?
On the face of it that would appear to be true but there are things that don't quite hang together. IF the Metropolitan Police Service do not believe the McCanns are suspects on a "global" basis then a reasonable extrapolation from that position is that The MPS know what crime was committed. If they know what crime was committed why do they continue to ask for public assistance on seemingly bizarre issues?. IF the prosecuting authority (note that is the CPS not MPS) has issued ILORs which is a costly exercise and can take up to 6 months to process then it would not have been on the basis of interviewing a few smelly binmen, burglars and itinerants. The CPS would only sanction an ILOR for something substantive (see their guidelines which other posters have linked). Then what are the PJ doing? as they now have made this an open case again and they have primacy. That I feel is the dilemma. We just don't know what is going on. Our options are try to guess, take the Daily Mirror to be an authoritative source on the topic or wait and see. I apologise for wandering a bit off topic.
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On the face of it that would appear to be true but there are things that don't quite hang together. IF the Metropolitan Police Service do not believe the McCanns are suspects on a "global" basis then a reasonable extrapolation from that position is that The MPS know what crime was committed. If they know what crime was committed why do they continue to ask for public assistance on seemingly bizarre issues?. IF the prosecuting authority (note that is the CPS not MPS) has issued ILORs which is a costly exercise and can take up to 6 months to process then it would not have been on the basis of interviewing a few smelly binmen, burglars and itinerants. The CPS would only sanction an ILOR for something substantive (see their guidelines which other posters have linked). Then what are the PJ doing? as they now have made this an open case again and they have primacy. That I feel is the dilemma. We just don't know what is going on. Our options are try to guess, take the Daily Mirror to be an authoritative source on the topic or wait and see. I apologise for wandering a bit off topic.
no it isn't a reasonable extrapolation...you are sating your opinion as fact...SY may have several ideas about what happened to Maddie but none that involve the parents
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If my child disappeared I too would never give up hope that she was still alive until proved otherwise.
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no it isn't a reasonable extrapolation...you are sating your opinion as fact...SY may have several ideas about what happened to Maddie but none that involve the parents
I didn't say it was fact I put it forward as reasonable. You think it unreasonable. Fair enough.
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no it isn't a reasonable extrapolation...you are sating your opinion as fact...SY may have several ideas about what happened to Maddie but none that involve the parents
So you never stop saying - ad nauseum
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So you never stop saying - ad nauseum
It might make you sick but to others it is sweet music...it means the police MAY eventually find out what happened to Maddie
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It might make you sick but to others it is sweet music...it means the police MAY eventually find out what happened to Maddie
Indeed they may, but I shan't be holding my breath.
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On the face of it that would appear to be true but there are things that don't quite hang together. IF the Metropolitan Police Service do not believe the McCanns are suspects on a "global" basis then a reasonable extrapolation from that position is that The MPS know what crime was committed. If they know what crime was committed why do they continue to ask for public assistance on seemingly bizarre issues?. IF the prosecuting authority (note that is the CPS not MPS) has issued ILORs which is a costly exercise and can take up to 6 months to process then it would not have been on the basis of interviewing a few smelly binmen, burglars and itinerants. The CPS would only sanction an ILOR for something substantive (see their guidelines which other posters have linked). Then what are the PJ doing? as they now have made this an open case again and they have primacy. That I feel is the dilemma. We just don't know what is going on. Our options are try to guess, take the Daily Mirror to be an authoritative source on the topic or wait and see. I apologise for wandering a bit off topic.
Welcome Cornelious
My take on this is that there is someone with British and PT connections. Some-one very elite that SY have got to tie down absolutely, cos he has the necessary clout, backing and money to shoot them down at the slightest flaw. I think SY are getting rid of anyone else, or anything else, [distractions] that this man and his backers can challenge them with.
'Twould be difficult enough to charge such a man, even with all these other "distracting" paedos around. Sort them first and get rid of them as a distraction ..... and as fast as possible.
Clear the field before going for the man who they think had 'dunit'. It might take many months.
All only my opinion, I hasten to add.
As for Kate and Gerry
Of course they live in hope that Madeleine is still alive
NOTHING to show otherwise and several earlier sightings that tie, which could well be Madeleine
Plus the Barrister last August/September who went to the Police about a sighting. There is another reason, which may be right or may be wrong 50/50. This has gone to SY and I cant disclose it.
I believe Madeleine is still alive and I believe she is being looked after. But it aint the same as being home.
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I wonder why this elite person would, allegedly, choose Madeleine McCann.
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Welcome Cornelious
My take on this is that there is someone with British and PT connections. Some-one very elite that SY have got to tie down absolutely, cos he has the necessary clout, backing and money to shoot them down at the slightest flaw. I think SY are getting rid of anyone else, or anything else, [distractions] that this man and his backers can challenge them with.
'Twould be difficult enough to charge such a man, even with all these other "distracting" paedos around. Sort them first and get rid of them as a distraction ..... and as fast as possible.
Clear the field before going for the man who they think had 'dunit'. It might take many months.
All only my opinion, I hasten to add.
Snip
For a minute there I thought you had changed your mind.
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I wonder why this elite person would, allegedly, choose Madeleine McCann.
Perhaps he already knew the family.