Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 02:05:16 AM
Title: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 02:05:16 AM
I'm certain he got to the church. Aoife had reached the top of the steps when he passed her - he wouldn't chance going down the steps in case he was seen by more eye witnesses. It makes no sense for him to go down that narrow brightly lit lane if he didn't know where he was going. He had to follow a route that he knew and the only way was to follow the road (Rue 25 de Abril) to the church and possibly to the rocks/beach. Any pipe trenches or holes in that building site could have been used so I would check around the church first where the suspect was heading IMO.
196
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 10, 2014, 02:08:01 AM
From statements, we found that Smithman was going in an Easterly direction along Rua 25 Abril, towards the church, or
in an initiually southern direction down the steps then maybe east again. That we dont know
We DO KNOW that from Aofies description, he definitely was NOT going in a westerly direction.
So east or south. Take your pick
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 10, 2014, 02:11:38 AM
I'm certain he got to the church. Aoife had reached the top of the steps when he passed her - he wouldn't chance going down the steps in case he was seen by more eye witnesses. It makes no sense for him to go down that narrow brightly lit lane if he didn't know where he was going. He had to follow a route that he knew and the only way was to follow the road (Rue 25 de Abril) to the church and possibly to the rocks/beach. Any pipe trenches or holes in that building site could have been used so I would check around the church first where the suspect was heading IMO.
Pathfinder.
You make me laugh. He went along the main street cos he wouldn't be seen there? Tommy Rot ... sorry, but it is.
Try being a little more circumspect and try thinking befoire you speak
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 10, 2014, 02:14:28 AM
From statements, we found that Smithman was going in an Easterly direction along Rua 25 Abril, towards the church, or
in an initiually southern direction down the steps then maybe east again. That we dont know
We DO KNOW that from Aofies description, he definitely was NOT going in a westerly direction.
So east or south. Take your pick
Thanks sadie ... so he could have been heading to the church ?
Is that why the military helicopter was focussed on that area perhaps ? ... or could there be another reason for the church being the main focus of attention ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 10, 2014, 02:19:25 AM
Thanks sadie ... so he could have been heading to the church ?
Is that why the military helicopter was focussed on that area perhaps ? ... or could there be another reason for the church being the main focus of attention ?
Yes, amongst several other equally suspicious places.
Now I have another idea why the helicopters might be focussed on that area.
TUNNELS
Nigh Night, Icabod
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 02:20:36 AM
IIRC there is now a chinese restaurant on pathfinder's route. It may have not been there in May 2007. Might be good to check because if one is assuming this man wants to avoid being seen he would probably choose the steps rather than walking past a restaurant? But as I said it may not have been there then? And BTW if anyone replies ah but going down the steps takes him past an african restaurant, that is not necessarily so.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 02:22:12 AM
You make me laugh. He went along the main street cos he wouldn't be seen there? Tommy Rot ... sorry, but it is.
Try being a little more circumspect and try thinking befoire you speak
The road is the quieter and darker route if you know anything Sadie! Those brightly lit steps lead you down to bars and people. Look at where Aoife was when he passed her very fast (A on pic below). He may have fallen down those steps going at that speed. He went quickly down the road and reached the church IMO. And if he didn't know the place that well he would use a route that he knew and not risk going down narrow lanes that he had never used before and getting lost 8-)(--) He had to know where he was heading and how to get there.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 02:31:32 AM
OK I checked and the chinese appears to have opened in 2005. I might be wrong maybe someone else can check? First use google streetview to look east from where A.Smith saw the man, that gives you the restaurant name. Then in a search engine type the restaurant name (in quotes) together with "praia da luz" "opened in"
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 02:38:31 AM
It all connects with the church. Which route do you think somebody who didn't know PDL would use?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 10, 2014, 02:40:37 AM
OK I checked and the chinese appears to have opened in 2005. I might be wrong maybe someone else can check? First use google streetview to look east from where A.Smith saw the man, that gives you the restaurant name. Then in a search engine type the restaurant name (in quotes) together with "praia da luz" "opened in"
... and this is significant ... how ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 10, 2014, 02:52:56 AM
The road is the quieter and darker route if you know anything Sadie! Those brightly lit steps lead you down to bars and people. Look at where Aoife was when he passed her very fast (A on pic below). He may have fallen down those steps going at that speed. He went quickly down the road and reached the church IMO. And if he didn't know the place that well he would use a route that he knew and not risk going down narrow lanes that he had never used before and getting lost 8-)(--) He had to know where he was heading and how to get there.
What is wrong with you that you need to resort to that? I would never do that to any of you.
I agree about the steps, but at the bottom when the handful of restaurants and bars close, the lighting is not so good. Rua 25 Abril is the main road with traffick likely at any time and is also fairly well lit. However I am happy to agree he might have gone either way. Most peeps are in bed early at PdL. It is a quiet place largely inhabited by retirees.
But it is any TUNNELS that I am most interested in atm. Planes with ground searching equipment would be able to track them, I think. Seems there was likely one going down to the little cove/ beach. Wonder where it came out at the top end? If my suspicions are right, what a piece of evidence that might provide !!!!
Hmm? >@@(*&)
Nigh Night.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 02:53:35 AM
IIRC the "east along Rua 25 Abril" theory has this as a man carrying a body? Having a choice to go east along Rua 25 Abril, or south down the lane of steps, he sees a restaurant which has windows facing onto the street and decides "I know I will avoid being seen further by choosing to walk east along Rua 25 past a restaurant which has windows so that staff and diners looking out the windows can see me"?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 03:04:55 AM
... it is any TUNNELS that I am most interested in...
Down lane, first right, left at end, straight, takes you to a round drain. My opinion now is smith sighting is not relevant BTW, if I did still think it relevant then that would be a possible route JIMO.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 10, 2014, 03:10:32 AM
What is wrong with you that you need to resort to that? I would never do that to any of you.
I agree about the steps, but at the bottom when the handful of restaurants and bars close, the lighting is not so good. Rua 25 Abril is the main road with traffick likely at any time and is also fairly well lit. However I am happy to agree he might have gone either way. Most peeps are in bed early at PdL. It is a quiet place largely inhabited by retirees.
But it is any TUNNELS that I am most interested in atm. Planes with ground searching equipment would be able to track them, I think. Seems there was likely one going down to the little cove/ beach. Wonder where it came out at the top end? If my suspicions are right, what a piece of evidence that might provide !!!!
Hmm? >@@(*&)
Nigh Night.
So why was that military helicopter hovering over the church ?
What is there about that little church, and the land directly behind it, that so interests the police ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 03:34:40 AM
So why was that military helicopter hovering over the church ? What is there about that little church, and the land directly behind it, that so interests the police ?
The helicopter will have hovered over a number of locations, both in the town and just outside. The church area is one of several locations where there were open construction trenches at the time. BTW back in July 2007 the NPIA also did aerial surveys of the town and surrounding areas by helicopter.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 03:36:47 AM
What is wrong with you that you need to resort to that? I would never do that to any of you.
I agree about the steps, but at the bottom when the handful of restaurants and bars close, the lighting is not so good. Rua 25 Abril is the main road with traffick likely at any time and is also fairly well lit. However I am happy to agree he might have gone either way. Most peeps are in bed early at PdL. It is a quiet place largely inhabited by retirees.
But it is any TUNNELS that I am most interested in atm. Planes with ground searching equipment would be able to track them, I think. Seems there was likely one going down to the little cove/ beach. Wonder where it came out at the top end? If my suspicions are right, what a piece of evidence that might provide !!!!
Hmm? >@@(*&)
Nigh Night.
8-)(--) that was in regards to Smithman getting lost which didn't happen not you. IMO Smithman had never been down those steps before and he wasn't going to start now when everyone is looking for the child he's carrying! He used the route that he knew which was the road to the church/beach. But a map being used to possibly plot his route is backed up by photo evidence >@@(*&)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 10, 2014, 03:45:46 AM
8-)(--) that was in regards to Smithman getting lost which didn't happen not you. IMO Smithman had never been down those steps before and he wasn't going to start now when everyone is looking for the child he's carrying! He used the route that he knew which was the road to the church/beach.
Thankyou for the explanation Pathfinder. 8((()*/
But how do you know he has never been down those steps before. I dont.
I dont think there is anything that really points in either direction especially cos there are restaurants in both directions. And lighting.
Ultimately either direction could feasibly lead to the Church or to the steps down to the sea.
But what about TUNNELS? Are they on ignore 8(>((
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 03:47:21 AM
8-)(--) that was in regards to Smithman getting lost which didn't happen not you. Smithman had never been down those steps before and he wasn't going to start now! He used the route that he knew which was the road to the church.
But what makes you decide that your perp had already walked your route (west from 5A then south down Rua da Escola Primaria then east along Rua 25) before? It's possible but I see no evidence for it.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 03:48:53 AM
But how do you know he has never been down those steps before. I dont.
I dont think there is anything that really points in either direction especially cos there are restaurants in both directions. And lighting.
Ultimately either direction could feasibly lead to the Church or to the steps down to the sea.
But what about TUNNELS? Are they on ignore 8(>((
I think they will check any tunnels but there's time constraint in my theory. Smithman had to be quick - no longer than 5 minutes to conceal the body. That means it had to be close to the church/rocks.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 03:52:41 AM
But what makes you decide that your perp had already walked your route (west from 5A then south down Rua da Escola Primaria then east along Rua 25) before? It's possible but I see no evidence for it.
There is evidence to suggest he planned his route with a map if he is identified. If he did then he would make it easy to remember to get to his destination i.e. church on map next to beach not overcomplicate it by going down narrow back lanes.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 04:04:18 AM
As I said there is no need at all to walk past diners in the african place, there is another junction before it. In contrast, going east, there is no further junction before the chinese. Easy to see both routes on streetview.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 04:09:32 AM
There is evidence to suggest he planned his route with a map if he is identified. If he did then he would make it easy to remember to get to his destination i.e. church on map next to beach not overcomplicate it by going down narrow back lanes.
So are you stating IYO that your perp definitely walked past a restaurant?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 10, 2014, 04:13:54 AM
As I said there is no need at all to walk past diners in the african place, there is another junction before it. In contrast, going east, there is no further junction before the chinese. Easy to see both routes on streetview.
A military helicopter has been hovering over the church that the McCanns had open access to, and earth diggers are primed to dig up the land directly behind it as we speak ... and you're talking about restaurants
Why ?
Does that really interest you more than current developments ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 10, 2014, 04:16:48 AM
A military helicopter has been hovering over the church that the McCanns had open access to, and earth diggers are primed to dig up the land directly behind it as we speak ... and you're talking about restaurants
Why ?
Does that really interest you more than current developments ?
Lol they'll be going back to the "dogs are crap" next.
Despite the fact the dogs work is being confirmed, right before our very eyes.
So, a helicopter costs HOW MUCH an hour to run?
A military helicopter costs ....?
Add in the specialist ground penetrating radar and operators of this machinery -
We're probably talking in the region of $20k per day.
All for a WHIM after a four year investigation?
It is almost amusing to watch the excuses getting wilder and wilder....!
Tunnels! No less!
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 04:18:35 AM
A military helicopter has been hovering over the church that the McCanns had open access to, and earth diggers are primed to dig up the land directly behind it as we speak ... and you're talking about restaurants
Why ?
Does that really interest you more than current developments ?
Agreed if people are sat down at a table eating and talking I don't think they're looking out the window to see if somebody is moving quickly past in the dark. Smithman had no choice but to keep on going and keep to the route that he'd planned - he had to pass the nine eye witnesses. He had no time to waste!
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 04:31:07 AM
A military helicopter has been hovering over the church that the McCanns had open access to, and earth diggers are primed to dig up the land directly behind it as we speak ... and you're talking about restaurants
Why ?
Does that really interest you more than current developments ?
I am extremely interested in current developments. I think its fairly obvious why I pointed out the restaurant: it has visibility over a route pathfinder proposed for his perp to get to the church area where are one or two of the current search sites.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 04:42:39 AM
I am extremely interested in current developments. I think its fairly obvious why I pointed out the restaurant: it has visibility over a route pathfinder proposed for his perp to get to the church area where are one or two of the current search sites.
Show your pictures of the restaurant please. I will take a look but I doubt if any were looking out the window at that splendid dark street view 8)-)))
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 10, 2014, 04:57:42 AM
Show your pictures of the restaurant please. I will take a look but I doubt if any were looking out the window at that splendid dark street view 8)-)))
Is googlemaps ok?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 10, 2014, 11:13:42 AM
I've had ad a quick look on GE and I would check to see who was dining there (Royal Garden Chinese Restaurant) and contact them to see if anybody did see anything. It's right next to where he was seen.
(http://i.imgur.com/2J7POCo.jpg)
A list of restaurants and eating places in PDL (Paraiso, The Dolphin, Chaplins - next to church, Fortaleza - below church see video below etc.)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: a.baker on May 11, 2014, 06:42:31 PM
Pathfinder - I am aware of your theories and they interest me. Do you think that Madeleines remains are still in PDL?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 11, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
Here is the view looking east from near the outside tables of the Bull. https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.085687,-8.730891&spn=0.00264,0.004935&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=37.085696,-8.730795&panoid=3Y1oa5prZ8mhifBfghDjcQ&cbp=12,74.64,,0,11.74 From east end of Rua 25 Abril a person taking a straight line to the church would walk from left to right across this view, and potentially be seen by customers sitting at the outside tables of the Bull.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 11, 2014, 09:54:36 PM
All these possible burial sites are rubbishing the work the Portuguese search & rescue dogs did for 9 days after Madeleine went missing. Why believe that anyone could have walked the routes suggested without any scent being picked up?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2014, 09:57:45 PM
All these possible burial sites are rubbishing the work the Portuguese search & rescue dogs did for 9 days after Madeleine went missing. Why believe that anyone could have walked the routes suggested without any scent being picked up?
have they looked under the bed in the apartmnet
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2014, 10:34:11 PM
All these possible burial sites are rubbishing the work the Portuguese search & rescue dogs did for 9 days after Madeleine went missing. Why believe that anyone could have walked the routes suggested without any scent being picked up?
Even if the Portuguese dogs did not actually manage to find a particular trail to follow they would have alerted to the scent of a decomposing body, and nine days gave them plenty of time to find one, unless smithman was one jump ahead all the time.
They did after all lead the GNR officers to apartment 5j ... a supposedly empty apartment ... but one with a fridge full of decomposing food. Wonder who occupied that apartment to leave food behind?
They were also capable of following a live trail from Madeleine to the car park at the supermarket. IMO their noses were every bit as sensitive as Eddie and Keela's and the trail they were tasked with following was fresher.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 11, 2014, 11:36:08 PM
Even if the Portuguese dogs did not actually manage to find a particular trail to follow they would have alerted to the scent of a decomposing body, and nine days gave them plenty of time to find one, unless smithman was one jump ahead all the time.
They did after all lead the GNR officers to apartment 5j ... a supposedly empty apartment ... but one with a fridge full of decomposing food. Wonder who occupied that apartment to leave food behind?
They were also capable of following a live trail from Madeleine to the car park at the supermarket. IMO their noses were every bit as sensitive as Eddie and Keela's and the trail they were tasked with following was fresher.
The issue I have with those dogs is that they didn't track her scent to the beach, where she had walked to earlier in the day with the creche group - that scent would surely have been stronger as she wasn't being carried. But then, maybe they weren't following her scent at all. 5J - the mystery apartment with apparently no spare key anywhere to be found. Quite easy to take a child up there without being seen, and smuggle her out at a later time in a laundry cart.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 11, 2014, 11:58:44 PM
5J - the mystery apartment with apparently no spare key anywhere to be found. Quite easy to take a child up there without being seen, and smuggle her out at a later time in a laundry cart.
A remarkable hypothesis, not that I think its correct, but in that it potentially drastically differs from the apparently universally assumed time period for transition from in building to not in building. Back to "where did smithman go?" I still think its undetermined whether he went east along Rua 25 Abril, or south down the steps. I lean towards the steps. His course across the junction is illogical if he intends to go east. Look at the spot where he was when witness A.Smith saw him. Although to be fair, east is still possible, because one might argue that his course across junction was altered simply by necessity to walk around and not collide with the people walking the other way?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 12, 2014, 12:31:07 AM
A remarkable hypothesis, not that I think its correct, but in that it potentially drastically differs from the apparently universally assumed time period for transition from in building to not in building. Back to "where did smithman go?" I still think its undetermined whether he went east along Rua 25 Abril, or south down the steps. I lean towards the steps. His course across the junction is illogical if he intends to go east. Look at the spot where he was when witness A.Smith saw him. Although to be fair, east is still possible, because one might argue that his course across junction was altered simply by necessity to walk around and not collide with the people walking the other way?
He could have been dodging and weaving.
His path may well make no sense, if he had to suddenly turn a corner to avoid being seen.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 12, 2014, 01:16:41 AM
A remarkable hypothesis, not that I think its correct, but in that it potentially drastically diferent from the apparently universally assumed time period for transition from in building to not in building. Back to "where did smithman go?" I still think its undetermined whether he went east along Rua 25 Abril, or south down the steps. I lean towards the steps. His course across the junction is illogical if he intends to go east. Look at the spot where he was when witness A.Smith saw him. Although to be fair, east is still possible, because one might argue that his course across junction was altered simply by necessity to walk around and not collide with the people walking the other way?
You are assuming Smithman actually exists, rather than being a fabrication following coercion.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 12, 2014, 01:25:16 AM
If the assumption the man they saw was a perp is correct, dodging and weaving to avoid being seen yet again by a 6th 7th and 8th witnesses is a possibility.
IMO he was most likely an innocent father carrying his own daughter, others think (and I did too previously) that he was a perp, but either way certainly MS and PS and AS did see a man carrying a girl.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2014, 01:57:44 AM
The issue I have with those dogs is that they didn't track her scent to the beach, where she had walked to earlier in the day with the creche group - that scent would surely have been stronger as she wasn't being carried. But then, maybe they weren't following her scent at all. 5J - the mystery apartment with apparently no spare key anywhere to be found. Quite easy to take a child up there without being seen, and smuggle her out at a later time in a laundry cart.
I can’t argue with that. We don’t know what scent the dogs were following.
The handlers were given Madeleine’s blanket for the dogs to smell, perhaps the perpetrator’s scent was transferred?
That they followed a scent, is borne out by the fact they were recorded as losing it in the car park.
The more I think about it, the more I think Madeleine may have been taken directly from 5a to 5j, left with an accomplice and the perpetrator left by the route followed by the dogs to a vehicle in the car park. The rotting food and [I believe] open fridge door has always niggled. Who does that, and why? I am convinced NSY want to trace the occupiers through the owners to ask them just that.
So is Smithman just another innocentman who had nothing to do with Madeleine’s abduction?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 12, 2014, 03:46:11 PM
The S&R dogs weren't given Madeleine's pink blanket to scent from, they were given a towel. The same towel was used on the 2nd occasion by those dogs. 03 Processos, volume III Pages 762 to 765 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_762 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_763 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_764 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_765
Witness Statement of Antonio Freitas Silva Date: 2007.05.09 Location: DIC Portimao Occupation: 1st Sergeant GNR Location: GNR-Queluz
The deponent states that: - He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club. - He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child.
Haven't posted the full statement, but bearing in mind the PJ couldn't find any definitive DNA samples from Madeleine in 5a.....
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2014, 09:48:14 PM
So Mr Smith sees a man...who looks like Gerry... carrying a child in pyjamas. The next day all hell breaks loose...Gerry is on Tv...Maddie is missing...but Mr Smith does not connect the two...why
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 12, 2014, 10:41:13 PM
So Mr Smith sees a man...who looks like Gerry... carrying a child in pyjamas. The next day all hell breaks loose...Gerry is on Tv...Maddie is missing...but Mr Smith does not connect the two...why
He did not "connect the two" until he saw the footage of Gerry carrying Sean.
Physicality is almost impossible to imitate. It is as unique as a fingerprint. The way someone walks, the tilt of their head when they don't think they're being watched, the stride, the speed - all unique and all as damning as if he'd have seen him in broad daylight 2 metres away.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 12, 2014, 10:59:13 PM
So Mr Smith sees a man...who looks like Gerry... carrying a child in pyjamas. The next day all hell breaks loose...Gerry is on Tv...Maddie is missing...but Mr Smith does not connect the two...why
He hadn't received a call to provide a witness statement detailing a man very similar to Tannerman heading in the opposite direction?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2014, 11:43:46 PM
The S&R dogs weren't given Madeleine's pink blanket to scent from, they were given a towel. The same towel was used on the 2nd occasion by those dogs. 03 Processos, volume III Pages 762 to 765 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_762 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_763 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_764 03_VOLUMEIIIa_Page_765
Witness Statement of Antonio Freitas Silva Date: 2007.05.09 Location: DIC Portimao Occupation: 1st Sergeant GNR Location: GNR-Queluz
The deponent states that: - He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club. - He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child.
Haven't posted the full statement, but bearing in mind the PJ couldn't find any definitive DNA samples from Madeleine in 5a.....
The files also record that a blanket supplied by Madeleine's parents was used, I think it could only have been the pink blanket which probably wasn't returned as it seems to have been lost.
13-Processos Vol XIII Pages 3517 GNR Report Subject: Report of Searches Related to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Annex B. Report on the Sniffer Dog Search and Rescue Team
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine. http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2014, 11:53:17 PM
He hadn't received a call to provide a witness statement detailing a man very similar to Tannerman heading in the opposite direction?
There has always been controversy about both sightings, particularly the 'missing' forty five minutes. They were thought to be the same man because the descriptions fitted each other so precisely. If this was a 'set up' it could only have been for the purpose of taking attention away from the direction in which innocentman was walking.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 13, 2014, 12:10:11 AM
There has always been controversy about both sightings, particularly the 'missing' forty five minutes. They were thought to be the same man because the descriptions fitted each other so precisely. If this was a 'set up' it could only have been for the purpose of taking attention away from the direction in which innocentman was walking.
Precisely. Innocentman, ie Tannerman/crecheman's role in all this was to fuel evidence against RM. Only after he was made an arguido did Smith come forward & make his statement. Yet the PJ were happy to let this statement sit in the files until the McCanns didn't collapse under the weight of the dogs' findings & subsequent interrogations.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 13, 2014, 12:17:25 AM
The files also record that a blanket supplied by Madeleine's parents was used, I think it could only have been the pink blanket which probably wasn't returned as it seems to have been lost.
13-Processos Vol XIII Pages 3517 GNR Report Subject: Report of Searches Related to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Annex B. Report on the Sniffer Dog Search and Rescue Team
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine. http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.
At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.
With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.
In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.
Above taken from GNR final report you have linked to. Both the s&r dog handlers said in their statements that Rex & Zeus used the Aztec towel for scenting on both occasions they were used, yet the GNR final report refers to the pink blanket & Madeleine's clothes being used. Shoddy police final report or deliberate attemp to deceive?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2014, 12:23:25 AM
The files also record that a blanket supplied by Madeleine's parents was used, I think it could only have been the pink blanket which probably wasn't returned as it seems to have been lost.
13-Processos Vol XIII Pages 3517 GNR Report Subject: Report of Searches Related to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Annex B. Report on the Sniffer Dog Search and Rescue Team
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine. http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Amaral was looking for the pink blanket so I think it was returned.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2014, 01:00:54 AM
Precisely. Innocentman, ie Tannerman/crecheman's role in all this was to fuel evidence against RM. Only after he was made an arguido did Smith come forward & make his statement. Yet the PJ were happy to let this statement sit in the files until the McCanns didn't collapse under the weight of the dogs' findings & subsequent interrogations.
Mr Smith's statement 'cleared' Mr Murat at a time when there were many conflicting reports of Mr Murat's whereabouts on the third and when he was an arguido. Mr Smith's statement implicated Dr McCann at a time when he was an arguido.
That is quite coincidental.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2014, 01:11:41 AM
Amaral was looking for the pink blanket so I think it was returned.
I didn't know it was Dr Amaral who was looking for it, it was just at the back of my mind that it had disappeared at some time after being photographed on the bed. It should properly have been returned if not to the parents but to be kept as evidence since it was one of the last known items to be in close contact with Madeleine. If Dr Amaral was looking for it suggests it had gone astray as the last record of it is being given to the police.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2014, 01:13:32 AM
Mr Smith's statement 'cleared' Mr Murat at a time when there were many conflicting reports of Mr Murat's whereabouts on the third and when he was an arguido. Mr Smith's statement implicated Dr McCann at a time when he was an arguido.
That is quite coincidental.
Martin Smith knew Robert Murat so he knew it wasn't him that he'd seen. He didn't know Gerry. Big difference.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2014, 01:16:22 AM
I didn't know it was Dr Amaral who was looking for it, it was just at the back of my mind that it had disappeared at some time after being photographed on the bed. It should properly have been returned if not to the parents but to be kept as evidence since it was one of the last known items to be in close contact with Madeleine. If Dr Amaral was looking for it suggests it had gone astray as the last record of it is being given to the police.
Oh Madeleine's pink blanket is important to Amaral because hairs found in the boot matched Madeleine's in colour. They can now test hairs without roots. Madeleine's hair should not be found in the boot of the car rented 24 days after her disappearance. It will be interesting to see if anything more comes from this >@@(*&)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2014, 01:29:02 AM
Oh Madeleine's pink blanket is important to Amaral because hairs found in the boot matched Madeleine's in colour. They can now test hairs without roots. Madeleine's hair should not be found in the boot of the car rented 24 days after her disappearance. It will be interesting to see if anything more comes from this >@@(*&)
Dearie me, don't you think if something was going to come from this it might have happened at some point in time over the last seven years? So if the blanket is as important as that, the police should have taken more care not to lose it.
Quite a pointless discussion anyway as we are way off topic and the moderators are just going to whoosh us anyway.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 13, 2014, 01:32:16 AM
Oh Madeleine's pink blanket is important to Amaral because hairs found in the boot matched Madeleine's in colour. They can now test hairs without roots. Madeleine's hair should not be found in the boot of the car rented 24 days after her disappearance. It will be interesting to see if anything more comes from this >@@(*&)
Amaral also had hair from Madeline's pillow back in the UK. Wonder if all that hair is still sitting in its evidence container or if it was "misplaced/destroyed". You'd have thought the McCanns would have had the sense to wrap Madeleine's remains up before putting them in the boot of the hire car, wouldn't you? The corpse must have rolled around a bit for that hair to fall out.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 13, 2014, 01:42:16 AM
Mr Smith's statement 'cleared' Mr Murat at a time when there were many conflicting reports of Mr Murat's whereabouts on the third and when he was an arguido. Mr Smith's statement implicated Dr McCann at a time when he was an arguido.
That is quite coincidental.
If Mr Smith's statement was a fabrication, there is no need to discuss Smithman or the route he may have taken. If Mr Smith's statement was true, why did no-one else see Smithman? If Mr Smith's statement was a fabrication, who requested it?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2014, 01:55:19 AM
If Mr Smith's statement was a fabrication, there is no need to discuss Smithman or the route he may have taken. If Mr Smith's statement was true, why did no-one else see Smithman? If Mr Smith's statement was a fabrication, who requested it?
If the CCTV covering Smithman's route had not been erased we might have had the answers to a lot of questions.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 13, 2014, 02:17:49 AM
If the CCTV covering Smithman's route had not been erased we might have had the answers to a lot of questions.
Ah, yes, the CCTV at the very place the Smiths were staying. All so convenient. Pity there is no note in the files as to the date the PJ actually went there & requested the CCTV footage.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: John on May 13, 2014, 04:44:43 AM
Back on topic, Gonçalo Amaral was extremely interested in the vacant property and garden immediately adjacent to where Smithman passed Aoife. We never ever did hear if that property or garden was properly searched for clues.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 13, 2014, 08:57:00 AM
Back on topic, Gonçalo Amaral was extremely interested in the vacant property and garden immediately adjacent to where Smithman passed Aoife. We never ever did hear if that property or garden was properly searched for clues.
That very overgrown garden was the perfect place to leave a body for a while before coming back for it later. High walls all around provided the perfect cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/5V0w9IW.png)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2014, 01:26:36 AM
Looking at the possibility Smithman was an innocent father carrying his child.
Where was he going to?
Given the time (10pm or later) and the age of his daughter (about 3 or 4) he was most likely going home.
Where was he coming from?
He is walking from an area with abundant parking, towards an area with shortage of parking.
Therefore it is likely he has just parked his vehicle immediately north of the sighting. And is walking with his daughter from his vehicle to his home immediately south of the sighting.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2014, 10:09:32 AM
Looking at the possibility Smithman was an innocent father carrying his child.
Where was he going to?
Given the time (10pm or later) and the age of his daughter (about 3 or 4) he was most likely going home.
Where was he coming from?
He is walking from an area with abundant parking, towards an area with shortage of parking.
Therefore it is likely he has just parked his vehicle immediately north of the sighting. And is walking with his daughter from his vehicle to his home immediately south of the sighting.
If you don't think Smithman is the one then you really have no chance of cracking this case 8(0(*
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Lace on May 14, 2014, 02:12:53 PM
I can’t argue with that. We don’t know what scent the dogs were following.
The handlers were given Madeleine’s blanket for the dogs to smell, perhaps the perpetrator’s scent was transferred?
That they followed a scent, is borne out by the fact they were recorded as losing it in the car park.
The more I think about it, the more I think Madeleine may have been taken directly from 5a to 5j, left with an accomplice and the perpetrator left by the route followed by the dogs to a vehicle in the car park. The rotting food and [I believe] open fridge door has always niggled. Who does that, and why? I am convinced NSY want to trace the occupiers through the owners to ask them just that.
So is Smithman just another innocentman who had nothing to do with Madeleine’s abduction?
I have always wondered about 5J too. Who would leave a fridge door open with food inside to let it rot like that?
I have often wondered if the abductor had been hiding in 5J, then when he/she left did that with the fridge in order to confuse dogs with the smell.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2014, 02:34:53 PM
If you don't think Smithman is the one then you really have no chance of cracking this case 8(0(*
With the best will in the world, I think we armchair detectives should let the professionals get on with it, because we are never going to crack this or any other case.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2014, 03:12:21 PM
With the best will in the world, I think we armchair detectives should let the professionals get on with it, because we are never going to crack this or any other case.
If they do you will find out that the Smithman sighting was 10:03
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 14, 2014, 11:04:51 PM
I am now pretty convinced that the CCTV footage at Estrela da Luz was wiped not because it showed Smithman carrying Madeleine but because it would have shown no evidence of Smithman whatsoever. CCTV footage can only be edited to remove things, not add them.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2014, 11:23:29 PM
Here is the view looking east from near the outside tables of the Bull. https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.085687,-8.730891&spn=0.00264,0.004935&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=37.085696,-8.730795&panoid=3Y1oa5prZ8mhifBfghDjcQ&cbp=12,74.64,,0,11.74 From east end of Rua 25 Abril a person taking a straight line to the church would walk from left to right across this view, and potentially be seen by customers sitting at the outside tables of the Bull.
With all due respect Pegasus 1) The Bell is quite a distance from the Church 2) It was a cool blustery evening. Any customers left would probably be in the bar.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 01:09:54 AM
Hi Amanda, possibly but I think the body may have left PDL. I think she was concealed close to the church at 10:05 on the 3 May so getting those church keys could be the KEY. I need to find out more about the car boot findings as I believe Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent in the underground car park. He was chasing cadaver scent and with the DNA 15 alleles part match in the boot and leaving the boot constantly open which was reported by a neighbour then the impossible as Amaral believed may have actually happened I.e. she was moved out of PDL in the hire car. I want to know whose human hairs were found in the boot. New DNA tests should be able to say whether it was Madeleine or not. Where is her pink blanket? Gerry asking directions to the church at 4am is interesting when there's a map open on the table in 5A crime scene photos >@@(*&)
Please can you give any evidence poiting to that? I am not aware of any.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 01:20:40 AM
He did not "connect the two" until he saw the footage of Gerry carrying Sean.
Physicality is almost impossible to imitate. It is as unique as a fingerprint. The way someone walks, the tilt of their head when they don't think they're being watched, the stride, the speed - all unique and all as damning as if he'd have seen him in broad daylight 2 metres away.
Rubbish Swiskas. Dont let your imagination get in the way.
Someone walking down steps cannot be compared to someone walking down a road. The only thing that was alike was the way that Gerry held S*** and the fact that he was looking down.
Gerry was negotiating steps so he would look down. Presunably Smithman looked down because he didn't want his face showing properrly?
As for the way Gery held S***. what better way could there be to hold a small sleeping child when coming down steps
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 15, 2014, 01:22:14 AM
Well you'd better let SY know before they waste another million pounds digging up PDL.
The fact that they are digging the land adjacent to where Smithman was seen walking, tells me they think the Smith sighting is the key.
Indeed, Andy has TOLD us as much.
The logic of the choice of upcoming ground surveys at several sites is not dependent on the irish sighting being relevant. The search area west of of Rua 1 Maio is behind the man the irish witnesses saw. You can't hide something then still be carrying it afterwards.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2014, 01:24:51 AM
Please can you give any evidence poiting to that? I am not aware of any.
CMTV “Maddie Special”, May 3rd, 2014
Interview with Goncalo Amaral
"And the scientific part is the hair that was found in that car. Hair without roots, that the English laboratory says that from its coloration, it belongs to Madeleine McCann. And that nothing except for transference between objects could justify [hair] inside that car trunk where cadaver odour was found."
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 01:28:14 AM
Oh Madeleine's pink blanket is important to Amaral because hairs found in the boot matched Madeleine's in colour. They can now test hairs without roots. Madeleine's hair should not be found in the boot of the car rented 24 days after her disappearance. It will be interesting to see if anything more comes from this >@@(*&)
Why not?
Her clothes were carried in it. There may well have been some hairs attached to her clothes.
But where do you get that Madeleines hairs were in the car from? I dont remember seeing it
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 01:29:30 AM
Mr Smith's statement 'cleared' Mr Murat at a time when there were many conflicting reports of Mr Murat's whereabouts on the third and when he was an arguido. Mr Smith's statement implicated Dr McCann at a time when he was an arguido.
That is quite coincidental.
>@@(*&) Interesting that.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2014, 01:33:21 AM
Back on topic, Gonçalo Amaral was extremely interested in the vacant property and garden immediately adjacent to where Smithman passed Aoife. We never ever did hear if that property or garden was properly searched for clues.
John, I think that if you examine G Earth, you will notice that the property you are talking about immediately to the West of Aoife is actually two houses. One is number 33 Rua 25 Abril.
The other is 62 ( I think, difficult to read ) with its entrance fbeing on the rom the steps down. I dont know the name of that road where the steps are, but anyway that is not empty and derelict.
We proved that Smithman did NOT go west in an earlier thread.
In order to have reached the front door or the garden door to the derelict property, Number 33 Rua de Abril, he had to have gone West.
He did NOT. He went South down the steps towards the sea. or East along Rua 25 Abril,towards Malinkas or the church
So looks like we can forget the derelict property there.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 02:06:08 AM
That very overgrown garden was the perfect place to leave a body for a while before coming back for it later. High walls all around provided the perfect cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/5V0w9IW.png)
Erm, high walls? Before I shrunk, I would lay my bottom dollar I could have seen over thta wall. Probably could even now.
Anyway that is acedemic because to get there Smithman had to go west and we proved very thoroughly many months ago that he went South or east and NOT west.
Do you remember Angelo?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 02:08:45 AM
Looking at the possibility Smithman was an innocent father carrying his child.
Where was he going to?
Given the time (10pm or later) and the age of his daughter (about 3 or 4) he was most likely going home.
Where was he coming from?
He is walking from an area with abundant parking, towards an area with shortage of parking.
Therefore it is likely he has just parked his vehicle immediately north of the sighting. And is walking with his daughter from his vehicle to his home immediately south of the sighting.
I cant fault that Pegasus, but why hasn't he come forward if he was a father carrying his child home ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 15, 2014, 02:27:15 AM
Sadie, this claim of yours that it has been 'proved' where the man the Smith family saw was heading after they crossed paths with him is absurd
It is simply not possible to know where he went after that last identification
You can take a 'guess' where he was headed, sure ... but you most certainly cannot 'prove' any such thing
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 02:35:52 AM
It was proven from Aoifies statements as you will remember if you try.
John will remember.
What does it matter what 'Aoife' said ? ... you, me, John, Aoife, or anyone else ( including the police ) cannot know, and certainly cannot 'prove' where the man the Smiths saw went after they passed him
Stop making insupportable claims
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2014, 03:17:21 AM
Sadie, this claim of yours that it has been 'proved' where the man the Smith family saw was heading after they crossed paths with him is absurd
It is simply not possible to know where he went after that last identification
You can take a 'guess' where he was headed, sure ... but you most certainly cannot 'prove' any such thing
It is my understanding that when seen by the Smith family the man carrying the child had passed the area of waste ground near to the apartments and was heading in the direction of the sea.
Why did he double back to enter the area of waste ground to bury the child's body?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 15, 2014, 03:31:05 AM
It is my understanding that when seen by the Smith family the man carrying the child had passed the area of waste ground near to the apartments and was heading in the direction of the sea.
Why did he double back to enter the area of waste ground to bury the child's body?
Who said he did ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Moderator on May 15, 2014, 08:27:30 AM
That very overgrown garden was the perfect place to leave a body for a while before coming back for it later. High walls all around provided the perfect cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/5V0w9IW.png)
This garden extends down to the other road so Smithman could have gone down the same steps the Smith family came up, turned right and a few yards along that road climbed over the old garden wall.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 09:20:10 AM
But Mr Moderator, the garden there is the garden to the house that is occupied! He has gone past plenty of gardens to properties that are occupied, why choose that one?
Also it appears thta the hedging is quite high and goes the full length where the garden adjoins the steps. How could he get in?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Moderator on May 15, 2014, 09:40:00 AM
But Mr Moderator, the garden there is the garden to the house that is occupied! He has gone past plenty of gardens to properties that are occupied, why choose that one?
Also it appears thta the hedging is quite high and goes the full length where the garden adjoins the steps. How could he get in?
The lower lane is called Rua das Salgadeiras as per aerial view plan below.
Mr Amaral was of the same opinion and spent some time walking around this property and the overgrown gardens to the rear. A partially demolished wall on Rua das Salgadeiras would have facilitated access. See bottom photograph.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 15, 2014, 10:45:51 AM
What does it matter what 'Aoife' said ? ... you, me, John, Aoife, or anyone else ( including the police ) cannot know, and certainly cannot 'prove' where the man the Smiths saw went after they passed him
Stop making insupportable claims
Of course it matters what Aoifie said. She is the only witness and she gives a clear description of what happened.
Are you suggesting that Aofie is INIT too then?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2014, 11:01:25 AM
He identified him. He was in Ireland at the time, and Gerry was back home in the UK.
No, Mr Smith said there was something about the man getting off the plane that reminded him of the man he saw on the night of the 3rd. Gerry's appearance would have changed slightly after 4 months in Portugal - his skin would be much more tanned, his hair would have been lightened by the sun, he may have lost weight with the stress. Were Mr Smith to have been asked to pick him out in an ID parade, I wonder if he would have been 100% positive? It amazes me that people can happily accept Mr Smith's identification as proof positive when the same people dismiss all the sightings of Robert Murat in the Ocean Club vicinity on the same night because he looked rather like David Payne (and we are talking witnesses who saw the face of the man at OC)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 15, 2014, 10:48:12 PM
From The Truth of the Lie -
Chapter 21 - An Irish family in shock - pages 197-199
- Sept 2007, McCanns return to UK
- Gerry exits the plane, carrying his son against his left shoulder, the child's arms down along his sides, down the stairs and across the tarmack Gerry walks
- The Smith family see this recording on the news at 22h00 and are hit hard: they know this person, this way of carrying a child and of walking. It is Gerry McCann, they believe with a high degree of certainty, that they saw on 3 May at about 22h00, carrying a 4 yr old girl who appeared to be deeply asleep
- The father contacts the police to communicate this new information. He says he has not slept since 9 Sept and is very upset. It's as if he re-lived the night he saw the man carrying the child. Seeing Gerry walk and carry the child, awoke something in his head...
- Still not completely convinced, he watches the news again on ITV and also on Sky.
- No, there are no doubts. Gerry McCann looks just like the same person he saw carrying the child on May 3
- Smith, upset and worried about what he saw and has concluded, needs the investigators to contact him.
- In late September, the Portuguese police receive this information from Smith. This appears to be a piece of the puzzle.
- Now Jane Tanner's insistence at seeing the abductor go the other direction makes sense, removing attentions from the way Gerry walked, in the direction of the beach. The man carrying a child didn't walk east towards Murat's house, but west in the direction of the Smiths.
- This puzzle piece allows the investigators to reconstruct what happened on that cold night of 3 May. The puzzle is almost complete.
- We make the decision to bring the Smiths back to Portugal. They will be heard, and in legal and procedural terms, will give their identification using televised images, since a personal identification [of Gerry] is out of the question.
- A reconstitution of that night, with the Smiths, is seriously considered.
- But the Smiths don't return to Portugal.
- The Portuguese police changed their minds after GA leaves the team; they decide to use the international request mechanism [letters rogatory]
- This leads to absurd delays
- In the meantime, rumours abound that strangers to the investigation have found about about this witness and his family and, supposedly, have tried to talk to Smith, though their intentions in doing so are unknown.
Remember - this book has been endorsed by the Portugese Supreme Court as being an accurate account of the investigation.....!
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 15, 2014, 10:57:59 PM
- No, there are no doubts. Gerry McCann looks just like the same person he saw carrying the child on May 3
Yes.
Can you therefore explain why Aoife & Martin Smith's individual efits of the same man differ so markedly, when neither of them actually saw the face properly?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2014, 11:06:15 PM
John, I think that if you examine G Earth, you will notice that the property you are talking about immediately to the West of Aoife is actually two houses. One is number 33 Rua 25 Abril.
The other is 62 ( I think, difficult to read ) with its entrance fbeing on the rom the steps down. I dont know the name of that road where the steps are, but anyway that is not empty and derelict.
We proved that Smithman did NOT go west in an earlier thread.
In order to have reached the front door or the garden door to the derelict property, Number 33 Rua de Abril, he had to have gone West.
He did NOT. He went South down the steps towards the sea. or East along Rua 25 Abril,towards Malinkas or the church
So looks like we can forget the derelict property there.
He had no need to go west, all he had to do was to go down the steps of the lane called Travessa das Escadinhas and turn right into Rua das Salgadriras. A few metres along this road and hop over the decaying wall into the large garden. All of which is depicted in the photo below.
(http://i.imgur.com/1eFNqVr.jpg?1)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2014, 08:55:06 AM
Chapter 21 - An Irish family in shock - pages 197-199
- Sept 2007, McCanns return to UK
- Gerry exits the plane, carrying his son against his left shoulder, the child's arms down along his sides, down the stairs and across the tarmack Gerry walks
- The Smith family see this recording on the news at 22h00 and are hit hard: they know this person, this way of carrying a child and of walking. It is Gerry McCann, they believe with a high degree of certainty, that they saw on 3 May at about 22h00, carrying a 4 yr old girl who appeared to be deeply asleep
- The father contacts the police to communicate this new information. He says he has not slept since 9 Sept and is very upset. It's as if he re-lived the night he saw the man carrying the child. Seeing Gerry walk and carry the child, awoke something in his head...
- Still not completely convinced, he watches the news again on ITV and also on Sky.
- No, there are no doubts. Gerry McCann looks just like the same person he saw carrying the child on May 3
- Smith, upset and worried about what he saw and has concluded, needs the investigators to contact him.
- In late September, the Portuguese police receive this information from Smith. This appears to be a piece of the puzzle.
- Now Jane Tanner's insistence at seeing the abductor go the other direction makes sense, removing attentions from the way Gerry walked, in the direction of the beach. The man carrying a child didn't walk east towards Murat's house, but west in the direction of the Smiths.
- This puzzle piece allows the investigators to reconstruct what happened on that cold night of 3 May. The puzzle is almost complete.
- We make the decision to bring the Smiths back to Portugal. They will be heard, and in legal and procedural terms, will give their identification using televised images, since a personal identification [of Gerry] is out of the question.
- A reconstitution of that night, with the Smiths, is seriously considered.
- But the Smiths don't return to Portugal.
- The Portuguese police changed their minds after GA leaves the team; they decide to use the international request mechanism [letters rogatory]
- This leads to absurd delays
- In the meantime, rumours abound that strangers to the investigation have found about about this witness and his family and, supposedly, have tried to talk to Smith, though their intentions in doing so are unknown.
Remember - this book has been endorsed by the Portugese Supreme Court as being an accurate account of the investigation.....!
Erm.... I must have missed that. When did the PT Supreme Court "endorse" it? Or are you referring to the fact that a temporary injunction pending a defamation trial was overturned?
Even leaving aside the accuracy issue, relying on Amaral's account of five months of an investigation is like saying Hitler won the war.
If Amaral had arranged for a statement in September, he would have known that Martin Smith was only 60-80% sure, that it was based on how he carried the child down the plane steps, in the context of the sensibility factor of suddenly realising that Gerry had been made an arguido, that the only person who thought it might have been him was his wife, that the rest of the family didn't, and they didn't even discuss this doubt for several days.
In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person.It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2014, 10:10:07 AM
Erm.... I must have missed that. When did the PT Supreme Court "endorse" it? Or are you referring to the fact that a temporary injunction pending a defamation trial was overturned?
Even leaving aside the accuracy issue, relying on Amaral's account of five months of an investigation is like saying Hitler won the war.
If Amaral had arranged for a statement in September, he would have known that Martin Smith was only 60-80% sure, that it was based on how he carried the child down the plane steps, in the context of the sensibility factor of suddenly realising that Gerry had been made an arguido, that the only person who thought it might have been him was his wife, that the rest of the family didn't, and they didn't even discuss this doubt for several days.
In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person.It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.
When push came to shove, Mrs Smith refused to change her statement. So if she felt the same way as her husband she wasn't going to say so herself and on the record.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2014, 11:37:34 AM
When push came to shove, Mrs Smith refused to change her statement. So if she felt the same way as her husband she wasn't going to say so herself and on the record.
It might have been an innocuous conversation in which she'd simply agreed that it might have been Gerry and if he felt that he ought to report his niggling doubt to go ahead and do so. I have absolutely no problem with someone honestly reporting a doubt, indeed I find that the right thing to do.
My issue is that this honest doubt has got mangled into a myth in which "the Smith family" (with the innuendo that it was the entire family) agreed that it was definitely Gerry. And that is simply not the case.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 16, 2014, 11:43:30 AM
When push came to shove, Mrs Smith refused to change her statement. So if she felt the same way as her husband she wasn't going to say so herself and on the record.
Only 3 out of 9 eye witnesses went to Portugal to give statements (Martin, Peter & Aoife). Mrs Mary Smith didn't travel or we would've possibly first known about when she asked, 'Oh is she asleep?' but Smithman didn't respond.
9 Eye Witnesses in total:
Upon being asked, he states that he was accompanied by his wife, MARY SMITH and his son, PETER SMITH, his daughter-in-law, SILE, and his grandchildren of 13 and 6 years of age respectively (children of PETER) TA*** and CO**, his daughter AOIFE (12 years of age) and his other two grandchildren (AI****** (10 years old) and EI**** (four years old) who are children of his daughter B***** who was in Ireland. (Martin Smith)
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2014, 11:47:10 AM
Only 3 out of 9 eye witnesses went to Portugal to give statements (Martin, Peter & Aoife). Mrs Mary Smith didn't travel or we would've possibly first known about when she asked, 'Oh is she asleep?' but Smithman didn't respond.
9 Eye Witnesses in total:
Upon being asked, he states that he was accompanied by his wife, MARY SMITH and his son, PETER SMITH, his daughter-in-law, SILE, and his grandchildren of 13 and 6 years of age respectively (children of PETER) TA*** and CO**, his daughter AOIFE (12 years of age) and his other two grandchildren (AI****** (10 years old) and EI**** (four years old) who are children of his daughter B***** who was in Ireland. (Martin Smith)
That's a lot of family members who didn't agree with Martin's late doubt that it was Gerry, even excluding the 4-year-old...
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 16, 2014, 11:53:39 AM
That's a lot of family members who didn't agree with Martin's late doubt that it was Gerry, even excluding the 4-year-old...
It would be interesting to find out what other information would've arisen about the man if they all had given statements excluding the youngest ages i.e. 4 & 6.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2014, 11:54:04 AM
Only 3 out of 9 eye witnesses went to Portugal to give statements (Martin, Peter & Aoife). Mrs Mary Smith didn't travel or we would've possibly first known about when she asked, 'Oh is she asleep?' but Smithman didn't respond.
9 Eye Witnesses in total:
Upon being asked, he states that he was accompanied by his wife, MARY SMITH and his son, PETER SMITH, his daughter-in-law, SILE, and his grandchildren of 13 and 6 years of age respectively (children of PETER) TA*** and CO**, his daughter AOIFE (12 years of age) and his other two grandchildren (AI****** (10 years old) and EI**** (four years old) who are children of his daughter B***** who was in Ireland. (Martin Smith)
Is it not the case that Mrs Smith gave her statement in Portugal? This may explain why it is not in the PJ files as it was taken at a different time. The Smith's spent a lot of time in Portugal as I believe Mr Smith may have had business interests there and they owned their apartment.
I have read that somewhere but cannot provide a cite. Anyone help?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 16, 2014, 12:06:49 PM
Is it not the case that Mrs Smith gave her statement in Portugal? This may explain why it is not in the PJ files as it was taken at a different time. The Smith's spent a lot of time in Portugal as I believe Mr Smith may have had business interests there and they owned their apartment.
I have read that somewhere but cannot provide a cite. Anyone help?
Mary Smith never gave a statement to the PJ as far as I know.
His wife Mary, 59, said: "We saw a man carrying a blonde child. It was just such a normal thing to see in a holiday resort — we didn't think anything of it at the time."
Speaking from his home in Drogheda, Co. Louth, Mr Smith recalled the sighting, which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner. In hindsight, the retired Mr Smith said, the mans rude behaviour should have aroused his suspicions.
He explained: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting.
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
"He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."
"I rang the Portuguese police and they took a statement from me on the phone.Then they asked me to make a statement to gardai, which I did in Drogheda two weeks after the disappearance.
"Two days later, Leicestershire police got on to us and said they wanted to speak to all nine of us. But we felt there was no point dragging grand children and the whole lot out to Portugal so just my eldest son, Peter, and youngest daughter, Aoife, and I flew to Luz to make a statement.
"We spent the whole day there from 10.30am to 7pm with an interpreter. That day, May 26 last year, was the last time we had any contact with the investigation.I remember clearly because it was my wedding anniversary.
"I told them we went for dinner at the Dolphin Restaurant and then went on to have just one drink in Kelly's bar, just 50 yards away.
"We would normally have stayed out longer but my son and his family were going home the next day.
"As we made our way back to our apartment in Estrella da Luz, we met a guy with a child that appeared to be asleep.
"None of us was 100 per cent sure what he was wearing but we all told police he was wearing beige trousers and a darker top. We all put him in his early 40s. I didnt think he was Portuguese." Insisting he knew chief suspect Robert Murat visually for years, Mr Smith told police the person he saw carrying a child could not be him.
"I told police it was definitely not him because the man wasn't as big as Murat. I think I would have definitely recognised him."
"It looked like a blonde child, and I thought she might be four years old, as she was the same size as my grandchild who was with us.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 16, 2014, 04:38:06 PM
Is it not the case that Mrs Smith gave her statement in Portugal? This may explain why it is not in the PJ files as it was taken at a different time. The Smith's spent a lot of time in Portugal as I believe Mr Smith may have had business interests there and they owned their apartment.
I have read that somewhere but cannot provide a cite. Anyone help?
Mr Smith co-owned the apartment with a Liam O'Neal (spelling correct??) & visited Portugal 3 times a year, according to his statement. He had worked for Unilever according to the press.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 05:32:18 PM
It goes without saying that Mrs Smith must have been back in Praia da Luz many times since the events on 3rd May 2007. Surely she would have been asked for a statement at some stage?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 16, 2014, 06:08:20 PM
Good grief
Team McCann are tying themselves up like pretzels rather than admit the truth which is -
After 4 years of investigation and review, SY have ended up in the exact same place as the PJ did.
This is undeniable fact.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Carana on May 19, 2014, 01:17:15 PM
That's a lot of family members who didn't agree with Martin's late doubt that it was Gerry, even excluding the 4-year-old...
What o you mean when you say that other members of the Smith family 'disagree' with Martin Smith about the man being Gerry ?
I was under the impression that the rest of the familiy were not able to say whether the man was Gerry or not ... not that 'disagreed' but, rather, that they were unable to confirm
Saying that they 'disagreed' with Martin Smith implies that the rest of the family thought the man they saw that night was definately not Gerry McCann
Have they ?
Have any of the Smith family said that the man they saw that night was definately not Gerry McCann ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: jassi on May 19, 2014, 01:54:16 PM
What o you mean when you say that other members of the Smith family 'disagree' with Martin Smith about the man being Gerry ?
I was under the impression that the rest of the familiy were not able to say whether the man was Gerry or not ... not that 'disagreed' but, rather, that they were unable to confirm
Saying that they 'disagreed' with Martin Smith implies that the rest of the family thought the man they saw that night was definately not Gerry McCann
Have they ?
Have any of the Smith family said that the man they saw that night was definately not Gerry McCann ?
The only one who felt the same way as Mr Smith was Mr Smith's wife (Mr Smith's own words).
That Mr Smith subsequently agreed (after initial refusal) to produce an e-fit clearly demonstrates that he also subsequently changed his mind. (About seeing Gerry).
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 19, 2014, 02:05:37 PM
The only one who felt the same way as Mr Smith was Mr Smith's wife (Mr Smith's own words).
That Mr Smith subsequently agreed (after initial refusal) to produce an e-fit clearly demonstrates that he also subsequently changed his mind. (About seeing Gerry).
What I am trying to clarify is whether or not any member of his family 'disagreed' with Martin Smith ( as is being claimed here )
Has any member of the Smith family said that they are certain the man they saw that night was not Gerry McCann
It's a straightforward question
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: ferryman on May 19, 2014, 02:09:05 PM
What I am trying to clarify is whether or not any member of his family 'disagreed' with Martin Smith ( as is being claimed here )
Has any member of the Smith family said that they are certain the man they saw that night was not Gerry McCann
It's a straightforward question
During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later.
Martin Smith
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: John on May 20, 2014, 05:18:01 AM
We have two e-fits supposedly both attributable to the 'Irish family' ie the Smiths, but why oh why are they so different if they are supposed to represent the same man?
Surely the one on the left could never in a millon years be taken for GM?
We have two e-fits supposedly both attributable to the 'Irish family' ie the Smiths, but why oh why are they so different if they are supposed to represent the same man?
Surely the one on the left could never in a millon years be taken for GM?
We have two e-fits supposedly both attributable to the 'Irish family' ie the Smiths, but why oh why are they so different if they are supposed to represent the same man?
Surely the one on the left could never in a millon years be taken for GM?
Could the more defined one perhaps be an enhanced version of the original using better software, John?
I think many things such as the eyebrows and hair look similar.
What has always concerned me a bit about these images both of which seem to be very detailed, is that Mr Smith stated that the lighting was poor which meant he couldn't really see the features to that extent.
— Regarding the description of the individual who carried the child he states that: he was Caucasian, around 175 to 180m in height. He appeared to be about 35/40 years old. He had an average build, a bit on the thin side. His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not wear glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
His son, Peter did not give a clear description because he could not ~ again the lighting was a factor. That leaves his daughter, Aoife, who perhaps had a better view although not as close as her family.
Jane Tanner was unable to give a facial description of the individual she saw partly because of the lighting conditions.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 20, 2014, 01:52:41 PM
Could the more defined one perhaps be an enhanced version of the original using better software, John?
I think many things such as the eyebrows and hair look similar.
What has always concerned me a bit about these images both of which seem to be very detailed, is that Mr Smith stated that the lighting was poor which meant he couldn't really see the features to that extent.
? Regarding the description of the individual who carried the child he states that: he was Caucasian, around 175 to 180m in height. He appeared to be about 35/40 years old. He had an average build, a bit on the thin side. His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not wear glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
His son, Peter did not give a clear description because he could not ~ again the lighting was a factor. That leaves his daughter, Aoife, who perhaps had a better view although not as close as her family.
Jane Tanner was unable to give a facial description of the individual she saw partly because of the lighting conditions.
Both Peter and then Martin encountered Smithman at a point which is particularly gloomy since it was not lit by a streetlight. Aoife on the other hand got a good view of him 2 metres away when she was stood at the top of the steps and directly under a street lamp. She didn't think it was Gerry.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 20, 2014, 03:01:42 PM
No doubt that is why Mr Smith was convinced of what he had seen when he viewed the footage of Gerry coming down the aircraft steps.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2014, 03:05:53 PM
No doubt that is why Mr Smith was convinced of what he had seen when he viewed the footage of Gerry coming down the aircraft steps.
didn't mr smith say it was dark and he didn't get a good look at his face....he made this efit AFTER he had seen Gerry repeatedly on tv and in newspapers...if he had made it BEFORE he had seen Gerrys face that would be completely differrent
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2014, 03:11:03 PM
Both Peter and then Martin encountered Smithman at a point which is particularly gloomy since it was not lit by a streetlight. Aoife on the other hand got a good view of him 2 metres away when she was stood at the top of the steps and directly under a street lamp. She didn't think it was Gerry.
so the only member who got a good look did not think it was Gerry but those who had a poor view originally thought it might be Gerry.....it obviously wasn't gerry
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 20, 2014, 03:38:01 PM
so the only member who got a good look did not think it was Gerry but those who had a poor view originally thought it might be Gerry.....it obviously wasn't gerry
Where and when has any member of the Smith family said ;
"The man I saw that night was NOT Gerry McCann" ?
You see, being unable to say, one way or the other, whether it was Gerry they saw that night or not is not the same as saying "it was not Gerry McCann"
Has any member of the Smith family ever said that ? ... said that they know, without doubt, that it was not Gerry McCann that passed them ?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2014, 04:09:26 PM
Where and when has any member of the Smith family said ;
"The man I saw that night was NOT Gerry McCann" ?
You see, being unable to say, one way or the other, whether it was Gerry they saw that night or not is not the same as saying "it was not Gerry McCann"
Has any member of the Smith family ever said that ? ... said that they know, without doubt, that it was not Gerry McCann that passed them ?
angelo posted that aoifee didnt think it was gerry...no..none of the smiths have said it definitely wasnt gerry...
there seems to have been invented a completely new legal system for this case where the accused has to prove they are innocent,.....not beyond reasonable doubt..but definitely. Thr hounding of the mccanns to this extent is disgraceful and you and others should be ashamed of yourselves..
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Benice on May 20, 2014, 04:55:13 PM
angelo posted that aoifee didnt think it was gerry...no..none of the smiths have said it definitely wasnt gerry...
there seems to have been invented a completely new legal system for this case where the accused has to prove they are innocent,.....not beyond reasonable doubt..but definitely. Thr hounding of the mccanns to this extent is disgraceful and you and others should be ashamed of yourselves..
I agree. What could be more crystal clear than Mr Smith saying that after talking to the other family members the only person who agreed with him that it might have been Gerry they saw was his wife. There is absolutely nothing remotely ambiguous or vague about that statement. The only other family member who agreed with him was his wife. Full stop.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: slartibartfast on May 20, 2014, 05:28:15 PM
I agree. What could be more crystal clear than Mr Smith saying that after talking to the other family members the only person who agreed with him that it might have been Gerry they saw was his wife. There is absolutely nothing remotely ambiguous or vague about that statement. The only other family member who agreed with him was his wife. Full stop.
So we have to assume the others weren't sure.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2014, 06:14:24 PM
I agree. What could be more crystal clear than Mr Smith saying that after talking to the other family members the only person who agreed with him that it might have been Gerry they saw was his wife. There is absolutely nothing remotely ambiguous or vague about that statement. The only other family member who agreed with him was his wife. Full stop.
What the same wife agreed that was close enough to ask him, 'Oh is she asleep?'
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2014, 06:20:35 PM
What the same wife agreed that was close enough to ask him, 'Oh is she asleep?'
Seeing as how it's ok to pick on every little thing the McCanns say or do and say it's odd behaviour, I would like to suggest that it was an odd thing for her to say to a complete stranger carrying an apparently sleeping child passing in the street. Why did she feel the need to ask such a question, as they moved past each other? I can't imagine doing such a thing myself hence it probably didn't happen (using doubter logic here).
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Benice on May 20, 2014, 06:33:26 PM
Only if you're desperate for them not to be imo. Most normal people would take it from Smith's statement that they simply didn't agree with him that Gerry may have been the man they saw on the 3rd. Martin Smith is the only one who wasn't sure. If he was - he would have said 100% not 60 to 80%.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2014, 07:05:38 PM
you have missed completely...smith was in pdl the night of the abduction...it was all over the news...how long did it take for him to report his sighting...first instincts...dont be stupid
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2014, 08:59:52 PM
There was virtual 100% certainty by the Wearside witnesses in Alvor, who supposedly recognised not only the father by way he walked, but also the mother by close-up facial recognition, and all that was 4 months after their sighting, just like the Smith recognition was also 4 months after. It demonstrates the mistaken transference phenomenon even more strongly than the Smith sighting does IMO.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: slartibartfast on May 20, 2014, 09:36:46 PM
Only if you're desperate for them not to be imo. Most normal people would take it from Smith's statement that they simply didn't agree with him that Gerry may have been the man they saw on the 3rd. Martin Smith is the only one who wasn't sure. If he was - he would have said 100% not 60 to 80%.
Most normal people would say there was no information. On what the others thought.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2014, 01:06:44 AM
Of the peeps here, who believe the exact identification by Mr Smith is correct, is there a single one who can please at least hint why they think the similar identification by McCluskys, based on the same September TV news footage, is incorrect?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 22, 2014, 01:38:43 AM
Of the peeps here, who believe the exact identification by Mr Smith is correct, is there a single one who can please at least hint why they think the similar identification by McCluskys, based on the same September TV news footage, is incorrect?
Have you got any pictures of who the McCluskys saw? What do they look like?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2014, 01:59:24 AM
Have you got any pictures of who the McCluskys saw? What do they look like?
I have no photos to hand. The claimed identification of the father was by the style of walking and carrying equalling that seen by the witnesses watching TV news over 4 months later. One source indicated that this was with a perceived virtually 100% certainty.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 22, 2014, 02:24:48 AM
Perhaps the Ukranian guy that McCluskey saw was Smithman, then.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2014, 03:12:21 AM
Perhaps the Ukranian guy that McCluskey saw was Smithman, then.
Well that's something that peeps, who think that identification by style of carrying is valid, would presumably consider. I was just trying to point out the inconsistency of some who embrace the Rua Escola identification as essentially being the exact solution of the case but do not even bother to mention this other identification which had a much higher confidence level yet was proven by PJ to be mistaken.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: slartibartfast on May 22, 2014, 07:13:29 AM
Well that's something that peeps, who think that identification by style of carrying is valid, would presumably consider. I was just trying to point out the inconsistency of some who embrace the Rua Escola identification as essentially being the exact solution of the case but do not even bother to mention this other identification which had a much higher confidence level yet was proven by PJ to be mistaken.
But the Smithman identification has yet to be proved a mistake?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 22, 2014, 11:40:06 PM
Well that's something that peeps, who think that identification by style of carrying is valid, would presumably consider. I was just trying to point out the inconsistency of some who embrace the Rua Escola identification as essentially being the exact solution of the case but do not even bother to mention this other identification which had a much higher confidence level yet was proven by PJ to be mistaken.
I would think the McCluskey sighting fell at the first hurdle when the blonde woman they witnessed was babbling in Portuguese.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2014, 11:58:52 PM
To say it's possible to i.d. a man just by style of carrying with 100% certainty (Alvor) or xx% certainty (PDL) is unscientific.
It's also scientifically impossible to produce a facial efit when you haven't seen someone's face. Yet, miraculously, it seems the Irish can defy science.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 23, 2014, 12:28:53 AM
It's also scientifically impossible to produce a facial efit when you haven't seen someone's face. Yet, miraculously, it seems the Irish can defy science.
There were 9 witnesses, 3 flew back May 26th, it might be 2 of the other 6 who did the e-fits?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 23, 2014, 12:49:47 AM
Well that's something that peeps, who think that identification by style of carrying is valid, would presumably consider. I was just trying to point out the inconsistency of some who embrace the Rua Escola identification as essentially being the exact solution of the case but do not even bother to mention this other identification which had a much higher confidence level yet was proven by PJ to be mistaken.
Pegasus, I have much respect for your logic, but here, imo, your thought processes are flawed.
To compare the two: Descending the steps from the aircraft to walking down the street the form of motion and dangers must be similar ... and they aren't.
Two utterly different sorts of motion, one down steep steps, the other on a steady slope. Two utterly different sorts of dangers.
In the case of Gerry descending the steps of the aircraft, of course HE MUST LOOK DOWN, and of course HE MUST HOLD HIS SLEEPING SON IN THAT MANNER with a hand free in case he needs to grab the rail or further support his son.
In the case of Smithman he was walking along a paved roadway, with no overt danger, so he had no real reason to look down. Seems he looked down cos he didn't want his face to be seen. No other reason that I can think of..
Both were carrying their child in a manner thta we all do when they are sleeping, with the head over their shoulder and their breathing apparatus, mouth and nose, free to do the job necessary. Also an easy way of carrying with the weight of the child mainly distributed over the carriers shoulder and body, rather than by his arms.
This is the way we all carry our sleeping children for a distance. Tbh, it is potty to suggest otherwise.
No disrespect, Pegasus, but I think that your wishes for this man to be Gerry have overuled your normal analyses and perception
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: misty on May 23, 2014, 01:01:36 AM
There were 9 witnesses, 3 flew back May 26th, it might be 2 of the other 6 who did the e-fits?
I can't see a statement which confirms that the witness clearly saw the face of the alleged man carrying the alleged child whose eyelids were closed. Can you? I think a trouser efit would have been more in keeping with the statements.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on May 23, 2014, 01:04:16 AM
Pegasus, I have much respect for your logic, but here, imo, your thought processes are flawed.
To compare the two: Descending the steps from the aircraft to walking down the street the form of motion and dangers must be similar ... and they aren't.
Two utterly different sorts of motion, one down steep steps, the other on a steady slope. Two utterly different sorts of dangers.
In the case of Gerry descending the steps of the aircraft, of course HE MUST LOOK DOWN, and of course HE MUST HOLD HIS SLEEPING SON IN THAT MANNER with a hand free in case he needs to grab the rail or further support his son.
In the case of Smithman he was walking along a paved roadway, with no overt danger, so he had no real reason to look down. Seems he looked down cos he didn't want his face to be seen. No other reason that I can think of..
Both were carrying their child in a manner thta we all do when they are sleeping, with the head over their shoulder and their breathing apparatus, mouth and nose, free to do the job necessary. Also an easy way of carrying with the weight of the child mainly distributed over the carriers shoulder and body, rather than by his arms.
This is the way we all carry our sleeping children for a distance. Tbh, it is potty to suggest otherwise.
No disrespect, Pegasus, but I think that your wishes for this man to be Gerry have overuled your normal analyses and perception
You have misunderstood my post completely. How much more clearly can I say this? Identification by style of carrying is not possible. The identification by Mr Smith was incorrect.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on May 23, 2014, 01:19:59 AM
You have misunderstood my post completely. How much more clearly can I say this? Identification by style of carrying is not possible. The identification by Mr Smith was incorrect.
Oh Sorry Pegasus.
I should have known better, you usually get it right 8((()*/
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Carana on May 23, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
If there was a homicide, where is the body?
That was what we were going to establish next. On the day that I was removed, I was carrying out diligences for a fundamental witness to come to Portugal. It was necessary for the PJ to pay for the trip, to arrange for lodging, and that was being taken care of. But then the important witness never came to Portugal and was never heard.
Gonçalo Amaral interviewed by Expresso, 04 July 2008 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
Is he referring to Martin Smith? If so, was he not interested in the views of the other members of the family?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Victoria on May 23, 2014, 11:25:20 AM
That was what we were going to establish next. On the day that I was removed, I was carrying out diligences for a fundamental witness to come to Portugal. It was necessary for the PJ to pay for the trip, to arrange for lodging, and that was being taken care of. But then the important witness never came to Portugal and was never heard.
Gonçalo Amaral interviewed by Expresso, 04 July 2008 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
Is he referring to Martin Smith? If so, was he not interested in the views of the other members of the family?
Pretty likely he was referring to Smith. As for not bothering with the rest of the Smith family, well they weren't saying what he wanted to hear so why would he bother listening to them? We all know what his approach to police work was like.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Carana on May 23, 2014, 12:59:48 PM
Smithman could simply be another innocent dad carrying his child home. For all anyone knows, he (or anyone else at home) could have been asked by the GNR when they did their house checks right at the beginning if he'd seen anything suspicious that evening. The answer would be no if he hadn't seen anyone else carrying a child or behaving suspiciously.
Tannerman was walking in a different direction and press allegations against Murat might have made him think they'd got their man and were about to charge him at any moment. Then there was a spate of Smithman articles, but the press seemed to have decided that that may have been Murat (cf Martin Smith allegedly denying that it was him), then there were all the allegations that it was Gerry and the McCanns were going to be charged at any moment. So there's still no reason to come forward... and the fear of being dragged into a media circus might be another. Or he may have simply moved away since then and not followed the saga.
Even today, depending on how the press present the police interest in the e-fits, it may sound as if he might suddenly be treated as a suspect (by the media, if not by the police), or be in trouble if he or anyone else associated with him was in an irregular situation at the time for some reason.
And then there's Amaral still plugging the Smithman-was-Gerry show on CMTV.
All in all, not very inviting to come forward, is it?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2014, 12:19:19 AM
Please anyone got a source for PJ having put ads in local papers re smithman? Or an image of the ad?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: John on June 02, 2014, 05:27:38 PM
According to Amaral, arrangements had been made to bring the Smiths back to Praia da Luz for a formal identification of Gerry McCann after they contacted the Irish police (Garda) following the McCanns return to the UK.
Amaral - The Truth of the Lie "By means of televised images, certainly - direct confrontation being impossible - and possibly proceed to a reconstruction of the events of May 3rd. The National Director of the Judiciary police agrees, the process is set in motion, all the details are sorted out; all that remains is to choose the hotel where they will be put up. But the Smiths were never to come back to Portugal. After my departure the PJ were to change their minds. They asked the Irish police to continue with interviewing the witness."
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 02, 2014, 08:59:15 PM
Amaral deserves a medal for persisting in his quest for the truth.
He's lost everything, including half his body weight.
He is a hero and he will be publicly vindicated.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2014, 11:08:01 PM
It's also scientifically impossible to produce a facial efit when you haven't seen someone's face. Yet, miraculously, it seems the Irish can defy science.
Jane Tanner was unable to describe the face of the person she witnessed for the simple reason that she did not see it.
I find it extraordinary that such detailed efits are alleged to have been provided by witnesses who described the person they saw as having his head down which imo was to avoid facial identification.
Maybe the Mr Halligen will shed some light on the technique used as I am sure this new branch of science will be very useful for law enforcement.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 02, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
Jane Tanner was unable to describe the face of the person she witnessed for the simple reason that she did not see it.
I find it extraordinary that such detailed efits are alleged to have been provided by witnesses who described the person they saw as having his head down which imo was to avoid facial identification.
Maybe the Mr Halligen will shed some light on the technique used as I am sure this new branch of science will be very useful for law enforcement.
It doesn't really matter who you insult, Scotland Yard have specifically told us these efits are THE SUSPECT.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Victoria on June 03, 2014, 11:02:12 AM
Cant you get anything right...Redwood has said that smithman may be an innocent tourist
But he MAY NOT be.......................
That is what "may" means.
It means - MAYBE.
Not fact, and not to be interpreted as fact.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: jassi on June 03, 2014, 08:30:41 PM
And, to date, no one has come forward claiming to be this innocent tourist.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2014, 11:48:43 PM
If SY were led to the mound site by the Smith sighting, SY must be recognising the possibility of a direction change soon after the sighting. Smithman was seen by the witnesses heading south or east. To get to the mound area he would need to change direction and go west.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: John on June 08, 2014, 05:53:36 AM
All he had to do was to go south down the steps, travel a short distance and then turn right.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Gadfly on July 01, 2014, 01:11:53 AM
True, but SY are asking the question - where was he going that night? They've started with Occam's razor logic - HOME!
I'm sure they're going to test his home all night story over the next few days to see if it holds up.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: faithlilly on July 01, 2014, 01:13:58 AM
It would seem that way Slartibartfast though to be fair it's mainly Alfred and our shiny new member Gadfly pointing the finger.
The sniffer dogs didn't follow her scent, though, and the child the Smith family saw was uncovered. So, either SM was not the abductor/carrier or the dogs were misled.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 01:37:38 AM
Aoife was almost under the tall lamp post on the left, when she saw smithman. He came down the narrow Rua D'Escola which is hidden on this photo, but it is almost opposite the lampost.
We worked out that he either came down this road towards the Church. ETA. Malinkas apartment is en route to the Church, about 30 or so metres past Aoifes sighting.
..... or crossed the road towards Aoife and carried on down the steps in the general direction of the little beach / rocky cove.or sea front.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2014, 10:09:03 AM
Aoife was almost under the tall lamp post on the left, when she saw smithman. He came down the narrow Rua D'Escola which is hidden on this photo, but it is almost opposite the lampost.
We worked out that he either came down this road towards the Church
..... or crossed the road towards Aoife and carried on down the steps in the general direction of the little beach / rocky cove.or sea front.
Or in a westerly direction back towards shops ( talk of a shop being seached ), large municipal bins and the OC.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2014, 10:47:50 AM
The sniffer dogs didn't follow her scent, though, and the child the Smith family saw was uncovered. So, either SM was not the abductor/carrier or the dogs were misled.
Were the GNR officers aware that there was a possible sighting of Madeleine on the route taken by the person seen by the Smith family which would have given them reason to visit the area on spec?
That urban area is not mentioned in the files as being visited by the teams and the enclosed road might still have contained a scent more so than the open areas inspected after the redundant searches in the locale of the apartment.
What was the timescale here?
The Smith’s returned to Ireland on the 9th May, at which time the GNR dogs were still deployed.
An arrangement was made for the Smiths to return for statements to be taken this was done 26th May.
Is there any evidence that the GNR dog teams were aware of the Smith family sighting and the locale where it occurred.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on July 05, 2014, 11:27:03 AM
Or in a westerly direction back towards shops ( talk of a shop being seached ), large municipal bins and the OC.
He was NOT going west faith. Proven before on this forum. You are obfuscating.
If you are confused with your sense of direction and are really thinking he went East, towards the main shopping area ... then Smithman took an extraordinaraily strange route to get there.
In my opinion that is not sensible at all Faith.
As for going towards OC. O.C is spread widely over Praia de Luz
BUT
He certainly wasn't going in the direction of the part of OC where Madeleine vanished. That is in a totally different direction.
It is due north of the end of Rua 25 de Abril and he was moving in an east south east direction.
Earlier on this forum, we worked out that he was going easterly along Rua de 25 Abril .... or ... Southerly down the steps in the direction of the sea after Aoifes sighting.
If he was going easterly then it didn't make sense for him to go as far as the main shops or the Church. There were easier, shorter mainly hidden alleyway routes.
If he was going easterly then it appears that he was going somewhere short of the main shopping area and the Church and Fortezela Restaurant.
I can only see three commercial "sort of shops" along there.
Was he going to one of these or was he going South down the steps towards the sea? >@@(*&)
Or have I missed something?
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2014, 11:58:05 AM
He was NOT going west faith. Proven before on this forum. You are obfuscating.
If you are confused with your sense of direction and are really thinking he went East, towards the main shopping area ... then Smithman took an extraordinaraily strange route to get there.
In my opinion that is not sensible at all Faith.
As for going towards OC. O.C is spread widely over Praia de Luz
BUT
He certainly wasn't going in the direction of the part of OC where Madeleine vanished. That is in a totally different direction.
It is due north of the end of Rua 25 de Abril and he was moving in an east south east direction.
Earlier on this forum, we worked out that he was going easterly along Rua de 25 Abril .... or ... Southerly down the steps in the direction of the sea after Aoifes sighting.
If he was going easterly then it didn't make sense for him to go as far as the main shops or the Church. There were easier, shorter mainly hidden alleyway routes.
If he was going easterly then it appears that he was going somewhere short of the main shopping area and the Church and Fortezela Restaurant.
I can only see three commercial "sort of shops" along there.
Was he going to one of these or was he going South down the steps towards the sea? >@@(*&)
Or have I missed something?
Nothing has been proven sadie.
If he had turned west there are smaller shops on his route ( from memory amongst which is a newsagent, supermarket and a nick knack shop ) and eventually the OC. We walked this way to our apartment in the St Joseph complex ( a short walk from Estrela da Luz where the Smiths were staying ) and slightly further on you would come to the OC.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2014, 12:45:35 PM
The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres. (AS)
So Smithman crossed the road to the opposite pavement and was going down when Aoife got to the top of the stairs. So he passed behind her as she started crossing the road. I'm surprised SY haven't got the Smiths back to do a thorough reconstruction. I would do it.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on July 05, 2014, 01:08:01 PM
If he had turned west there are smaller shops on his route ( from memory amongst which is a newsagent, supermarket and a nick knack shop ) and eventually the OC. We walked this way to our apartment in the St Joseph complex ( a short walk from Estrela da Luz where the Smiths were staying ) and slightly further on you would come to the OC.
He was coming from a westerly direction, Faith.
You know that and all of us that have been on here for long enough know it too.
Aoife said it, in her statement.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on July 05, 2014, 01:10:55 PM
The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres. (AS)
So Smithman crossed the road to the opposite pavement and was going down when Aoife got to the top of the stairs. So he passed behind her as she started crossing the road. I'm surprised SY haven't got the Smiths back to do a thorough reconstruction. I would do it.
Yes
She looked to her left and saw the deponent coming towards her. She looked to HER LEFT. In other words she looked West and he was coming towards her from that direction.
So he was coming FROM a westerly direction.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: John on July 05, 2014, 02:48:48 PM
The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres. (AS)
So Smithman crossed the road to the opposite pavement and was going down when Aoife got to the top of the stairs. So he passed behind her as she started crossing the road. I'm surprised SY haven't got the Smiths back to do a thorough reconstruction. I would do it.
Spot on. 8((()*/ Smithman was walking towards Aoife which means he was effectively walking in an easterly direction. As Sadie states above, he either went down the steps which the Smiths had just come up or continued east towards the block of flats where coincidentally our pal Sergei lived.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on July 05, 2014, 03:41:41 PM
The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres. (AS)
So Smithman crossed the road to the opposite pavement and was going down when Aoife got to the top of the stairs. So he passed behind her as she started crossing the road. I'm surprised SY haven't got the Smiths back to do a thorough reconstruction. I would do it.
Your second paragraph is not certain, pathfinder. We dont KNOW that he crossed the road. We certainly dont know whether he went down the steps, or whether he carried on in an easterly direction down Rua 25 Abril. As John says that is in the direction of Sergies.
In fact if the photo previously shown, (by ?Mr Mod) is correct then Sergies flat was just behind the Chinese Restaurant, This is only the second building along and a distance along Rua 25 Abril of just over 30 metres from Aoifes sighting.
I must admit that I thought that Sergies flat was behind the real estate agents, which is the next building along Rua 25 Abril after the drive in gap ... and some 45 metres east from Aoifes sighting.
But I am happy to be proved wrong. As far as I can see there are only three commercial premises along there. Maybe there was a fourth in the gap after the empty shop [on the current GE street scene]
Needless to say, we truly do not know whether Smithman went down the steps or east towards Sergies. 50/50
From Aoifes statemebnt we know he didn't go west tho.
Anyway, I dont want to speculate. It is kind of ex judice.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
Your second paragraph is not certain, pathfinder. We dont KNOW that he crossed the road. We certainly dont know whether he went down the steps, or whether he carried on in an easterly direction down Rua 25 Abril. As John says that is in the direction of Sergies.
In fact if the photo previously shown, (by ?Mr Mod) is correct then Sergies flat was just behind the Chinese Restaurant, This is only the second building along and a distance along Rua 25 Abril of just over 30 metres from Aoifes sighting.
I must admit that I thought that Sergies flat was behind the real estate agents, which is the next building along Rua 25 Abril after the drive in gap ... and some 45 metres east from Aoifes sighting.
But I am happy to be proved wrong. As far as I can see there are only three commercial premises along there. Maybe there was a fourth in the gap after the empty shop [on the current GE street scene]
Needless to say, we truly do not know whether Smithman went down the steps or east towards Sergies. 50/50
From Aoifes statemebnt we know he didn't go west tho.
Anyway, I dont want to speculate. It is kind of ex judice.
I know we don't know for certain but I can make an educated guess from my own theory that he was heading to the church/building site/rocks area. There was a report of him passing the church but if there is a lost witness then we don't know what was said.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2014, 01:34:14 AM
Well yes one way to make the Smith sighting work is to have the missing child carried on foot from 5A to the carpark south of block 6, driven in a vehicle from there to Rua Escola, then carried on foot again down Rua Escola.
I think that's too complicated. I think the GNR dog tracks rule out both the JT sighting and the Smith sighting.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2014, 05:36:28 PM
This is cool! A closer look at the Rocky Beach Area if coming from the church direction.
Why not if he wanted something not to be found? There's plenty of good hiding places there in the dark.
Those rocks PFinder are near the church and the Fortezela. Which is more or less the centre of Luz.
Several restaurants, with likely eaters had to be passed to get there. People who might witness a man carrying a child. People who after eating their meal might quite likely take the few steps to the front to gaze over the rocks at the ocean beyond.
If it was light enough for Smithman to clamber over those rocks, it was light enough for people strolling along the "prom" or gazing out to see to see a child being hidden there
Also in the daylight, the next day, people would be walking above and clambering over those rocks.
What you are suggesting isn't sensible TBH
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 25, 2014, 11:19:52 AM
Did you see the footage of that area on Dispatches with Gary Lig? It was pitch black. Anybody could easily get there and not necessarily be seen. So it is feasible. Whether that actually happened is another matter. But you have heard about Amaral's lost witness I presume who saw somebody on the beach.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on November 25, 2014, 01:36:09 PM
Did you see the footage of that area on Dispatches with Gary Lig? It was pitch black. Anybody could easily get there and not necessarily be seen. So it is feasible. Whether that actually happened is another matter. But you have heard about Amaral's lost witness I presume who saw somebody on the beach.
If it was light enough to clamber over those rocks, Pfinder, it was light enough to have been observed by people gazing out to sea or strolling along the "prom"
Now Amaral
He seems to have a story to cover every eventuality, especially if it points to the Mccanns. Only in my opinion, but I think others will have noticed the same.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 25, 2014, 01:53:05 PM
If it was light enough to clamber over those rocks, Pfinder, it was light enough to have been observed by people gazing out to sea or strolling along the "prom"
Now Amaral
He seems to have a story to cover every eventuality, especially if it points to the Mccanns. Only in my opinion, but I think others will have noticed the same.
A witness saw him not Amaral. If you wanted to hide something very well you could manage to clamber over rocks with the adrenaline pumping. The whole point of moving into the pitch black is not to be seen because there's nobody there. If a crime was being committed he could get his ass over the rocks. Don't you worry about that Sadie.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: sadie on November 25, 2014, 02:03:54 PM
A witness saw him not Amaral. If you wanted to hide something very well you could manage to clamber over rocks with the adrenaline pumping. The whole point of moving into the pitch black is not to be seen because there's nobody there. If a crime was being committed he could get his ass over the rocks. Don't you worry about that Sadie.
Not in full view.
And who is this unamed witness?
Amaral seems to be very good at "unamed" people.
We all know that he is also very good at stories.
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 25, 2014, 02:10:01 PM
Did you see the footage of that area on Dispatches with Gary Lig? It was pitch black. Anybody could easily get there and not necessarily be seen. So it is feasible. Whether that actually happened is another matter. But you have heard about Amaral's lost witness I presume who saw somebody on the beach.
Does you theory have someone going back there in in the early hours? If so do you realise that 1. by then the full moon is high in the sky, very bright 2. by then the tide has come in
Title: Re: So where was Smithman going to that night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 26, 2014, 12:08:06 AM
I know it was high tide at 4am. But going out at around 5:30 in the dark is an angle that needs to be covered. I would check mobile triangulation at that time. OC searchers finished at 4am. High tide wouldn't cover all the rocks in that location.
"Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach." (DP)