UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 13, 2014, 12:58:25 PM
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Certainly not with a gunshot wound. This has effectively been ruled out by Dr Vanezis, the pathologist.
Could Sheila have been seen in the kitchen, slumped and dozing or in some subdued state? Then hearing EP move in did she move upstairs, seek out the bible for solace and shoot herself twice?
Did Sheila's body, as found by EP, lend to this scenario?
I think it unlikely and that reports by EP noting a female in the kitchen were simply a mistaken identity which resulted in an administrative error on the log but it would be good to rule this out.
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What was the time difference between the 'female' sighted in the kitchen and the raid team identifying SC in the main bedroom? Minutes I think? Surely if SC was found so soon after death we would have heard more about the obvious signs? By all accounts she died after the other victims, but so close to being identified?
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There only was one person lying slumped with their head in the coal shuttle and that was Nevill. His long hair covering his face gave the impression to the policeman who managed a fleeting glance in the kitchen window that it was a female. One has to remember that Jeremy had the cops all wound up about Sheila running around the house with a gun.
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Certainly not with a gunshot wound. This has effectively been ruled out by Dr Vanezis, the pathologist.
Could Sheila have been seen in the kitchen, slumped and dozing or in some subdued state? Then hearing EP move in did she move upstairs, seek out the bible for solace and shoot herself twice?
Did Sheila's body, as found by EP, lend to this scenario?
I think it unlikely and that reports by EP noting a female in the kitchen were simply a mistaken identity which resulted in an administrative error on the log but it would be good to rule this out.
Only one body was seen in the kitchen, a person with gray hair. Upon entering they actually got to inspect such body and it turned out to be Nevill. Sheila didn't have gray hair so it can't have been her that was seen and since only one body was seen, one body foudn upon entering it is rather obvious it is Nevill that was seen.
The claim about 2 bodies and a body being moved is a desperate attempt to say Sheila was alive at the time the police entered because then Jeremy can't have shot her.
There is no evidence to establish she didnt die around the same time as the rest. So some supporters try to invent some by insisting she was alive much longer and the proof is police saw her when they looked in the windows.
The problem is they are relying on reports from people not on the scene instead of witness statements. Teh witness statements rather easily deomonstrate there was one body, they thought it was an elderly female but upon inspecting it found out it was a male. Moreover the witness statemens note 2 women found in the master bedroom.
This is one of those issues where Bamber proponents are harming their own credibility twisting like this. It makes it harder to take them serious on the significant issues.
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Does anyone actually believe Jeremy and the police saw someone at the upstairs window outside WHF? I suspect the idea was planted by Jeremy-remember, he was presenting the seige situation to the police but he knew very well what had actually happened. What better a way to spook the officer and reinforce the story than by pretending he'd seen someone at the window? At this stage why would the officer disbelieve him?
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Does anyone actually believe Jeremy and the police saw someone at the upstairs window outside WHF? I suspect the idea was planted by Jeremy-remember, he was presenting the seige situation to the police but he knew very well what had actually happened. What better a way to spook the officer and reinforce the story than by pretending he'd seen someone at the window? At this stage why would the officer disbelieve him?
The police themselves say that they didn't see anything they just turned their heads and that gave the impression of movement. They said it was silent and they heard nothing, they would have heard if any shots had been fired.
If Jeremy had seen movement he would have been crapping his pants and I doubt have mentioned it because police might then have gone inside to reach this living person.
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Does anyone actually believe Jeremy and the police saw someone at the upstairs window outside WHF? I suspect the idea was planted by Jeremy-remember, he was presenting the seige situation to the police but he knew very well what had actually happened. What better a way to spook the officer and reinforce the story than by pretending he'd seen someone at the window? At this stage why would the officer disbelieve him?
According to PS Bewes it was PC Myalls that spotted 'movement' at the window. See 3.40 in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M&feature=youtube_gdata_player
We will never know...Was it SC or some sort of optical illusion caused by light reflection or all in the mind?
What is interesting is those that believe JB guilty also believe JB drew attention to 'movement' at the window in an attempt to further embellish his narrative.
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According to PS Bewes it was PC Myalls that spotted 'movement' at the window. See 3.40 in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M&feature=youtube_gdata_player
We will never know...Was it SC or some sort of optical illusion caused by light reflection or all in the mind?
What is interesting is those that believe JB guilty also believe JB drew attention to 'movement' at the window in an attempt to further embellish his narrative.
That is because a police statement indicated it went down that way plus the fact he killed Sheila means she can't have been alive to move.
It is not conceivable that police would be out there all that time waiting and yet not hear a gunshot or gunshots fired by a gun without a suppressor. It is not like they were in the city with traffic rushing by and even in the city people hear shots despite the background noise.
I have no doubt that Jeremy made sure they were dead before he left so that there was no way any of them could talk.
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That is because a police statement indicated it went down that way plus the fact he killed Sheila means she can't have been alive to move.
It is not conceivable that police would be out there all that time waiting and yet not hear a gunshot or gunshots fired by a gun without a suppressor. It is not like they were in the city with traffic rushing by and even in the city people hear shots despite the background noise.
I have no doubt that Jeremy made sure they were dead before he left so that there was no way any of them could talk.
Scipio I am so glad you haven't just dumped us in favour of Blue.
A .22 rifle firing subsonic ammunition (the type said to have been used at WHF) does not produce a great deal of noise even without a sound moderator fitted, because there is no "crack" which is caused by high velocity ammunition. With a Parker Hale sound moderator there is a reduction in sound but this reduction is less for a semiautomatic rifle (like the Anschutz used at WHF) than for a bolt action rifle. I can see little if any benefit to an assassin in using a sound moderator/silencer in the circumstances prevailing that night at WHF. I very much doubt if a silencer was fitted to the rifle at any stage.
25 shots fired and no one from the neighbouring cottages heard a thing.
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Think laterally... what if he didn't want to wake the rest of the family if say the twins were the initial targets, or Sheila and the twins if the parents were first in line?
Firing the rifle inside one bedroom with the sound bouncing off the walls is likely to be heard in another close by.
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Think laterally... what if he didn't want to wake the rest of the family if say the twins were the initial targets, or Sheila and the twins if the parents were first in line?
Firing the rifle inside one bedroom with the sound bouncing off the walls is likely to be heard in another close by.
Hahaha many will argue I struggle to think literally let alone laterally @)(++(*
Myster I have no real idea. I copied the above from NGB!
The jury were taken to a shooting range (outside) to hear the sound of the gun with and without a silencer but it seems odd to me that an indoors facility wasn't made available. Surely the soc needed to replicated as far as possible with the sound measured? Anything else sounds a bit amateurish?
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Let's not quote NGB or any other of the Bamberettes! There's a couple of decent people over at Tesco's but most are an unsavoury bunch!
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An Anschutz 525 (with moderator fitted) fired outside is noisy close up, perhaps even more so inside the confines of WHF, especially if bullets are shot in rapid succession, as I suspect they were that night. Maybe JB thought whatever he could do to reduce the noise even by a small amount, the more success he'd have in carrying out his plan.
I've linked to this vid once before, but judge for yourself... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
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25 shots fired and no one from the neighbouring cottages heard a thing.
I wonder if any of them did hear shots? If they did they probably thought there is Bamber out again shooting these pesky rabbits.
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I wonder if any of them did hear shots? If they did they probably thought there is Bamber out again shooting these pesky rabbits.
I believe a man walking his dog heard a shot circa 10.30pm but then in the countryside this wouldn't be unusual and probably difficult to pinpoint the exact location of the sound.
The main bedroom window was open and the nearby cottages are very close. The occupants of the cottages probably had their windows open too as it was the height of summer.
It seems crazy to mind that we have no decibel for the sound with and without a silencer based on the said weapon/ammo fired within a building.
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How do you know the main bedroom window was open during the night? - even though one photo shows it to be so, the police might have opened it because of the smell.
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How do you know the main bedroom window was open during the night? - even though one photo shows it to be so, the police might have opened it because of the smell.
PC Delgado's stat:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=70
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It concerns me that people who believe JB is innocent cling on to what is clearly just human error on the part of the officer who reported seeing a female in the kitchen. It was Neville, that would have become evident upon their entry to the house. Suggesting it was Sheila really is clutching at straws.
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Indeed Jodie.clutching at straws indeed.
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Neville's face was in the coal scuttle and his long hair gave the impression he was female. An easy mistake to make when attempting a quick glance in a kitchen window when expecting to be shot at at any moment.
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The problem with SC being in the kitchen seems to be the fact someone has suggested she was lying on the floor shot and then magically jumped up and pottered off upstairs. Although very theoretically possible for her to do that it is exceedingly unlikely.
So moving on from my theory that SC shot herself with a double shot in close succession in her parents bedroom, it is therefore possible that SC was indeed in the kitchen. She might have been putting her clothes to soak in the buckets, she might have been lying in wait, as many family annihilators do, for the finally family member to arrive so she could kill him too. She might have just been having a drink. The reason isn't too important.
And then she might have walked upstairs to read the bible and shoot herself twice upstairs when she realised the police were forcing an entry - and the gentle noise of sledge-hammer on wood could have disguised the sound to people outside.
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The problem with SC being in the kitchen seems to be the fact someone has suggested she was lying on the floor shot and then magically jumped up and pottered off upstairs. Although very theoretically possible for her to do that it is exceedingly unlikely.
So moving on from my theory that SC shot herself with a double shot in close succession in her parents bedroom, it is therefore possible that SC was indeed in the kitchen. She might have been putting her clothes to soak in the buckets, she might have been lying in wait, as many family annihilators do, for the finally family member to arrive so she could kill him too. She might have just been having a drink. The reason isn't too important.
And then she might have walked upstairs to read the bible and shoot herself twice upstairs when she realised the police were forcing an entry - and the gentle noise of sledge-hammer on wood could have disguised the sound to people outside.
I started this thread over a year ago and you live and learn!
CAL P!95:
DR V @ trial: "Asked whether it was possible for Sheila to have stood and walked around after the first wound was inflicted, he replied that it was unlikely because the wound would have discharged 'a lot of blood' and the dispersal of blood on her nightdress was clearly indicative it was not the case."
"Today he is firmer still: 'She hadn't got up at all'."
"He did not attempt to estimate a time of death: 'That's hard enough at the best of times. If the police ask us then we do look into it, but usually you get a better idea from other sources. If you're dealing with a time of death some time in a range of five or six hours, then generally you're better off getting the information from when the victim was last seen alive through to when their body was discovered.' There was nothing at all to indicate that Sheila had died some significant time after her parents and sons'."
CoA
"38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night".
In CAL's book Dr V describes the wounds as 'loose contact'. I understand contact shots (loose?) act as a natural suppressor:
"In many cases, the body's absorption of the muzzle blast will act as a suppressor, trapping the propellant gases under the skin and muffling the sound of the shot".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_shot
Surely if SC shot herself shortly before EP entered or upon entry it would be obvious? SC would look different to the other victims?
In CAL's book Dr V also makes ref to the contents of SC's stomach:
"Her stomach contained 'partially digested food'. Vanezis made no reference to the stomach contents of the other victims, leading to speculation that Sheila might have eaten later than her family. 'I'm sure they all had some food in their stomachs - I noted it for her and took it as read with the others'."
Away on hols shortly hope you will not have passed by by the time I return Passer-by 8)-)))
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So pretty much their prognosis was
(a) she was dead
(b) of gunshot wounds
Sounds like money for jam being a pathologist?!
Have a good hol Holls: this is running out of steam but I shall keep checking for your review of that book 8(0(*
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The blood spot pattern on the bedroom carpet floor indicates that Sheila was shot in the neck while standing up and that she collapsed stunned instantly.
She might well have been in the kitchen earlier that morning before it all kicked off. It's unlikely she was there after the fatal assault on Nev otherwise she would have had blood and glass splinters on her feet soles.
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I thought it turned out there hadn't been glass and sugar all over the floor, it was only in one bit? Also, in the photos, the table is still set for breakfast with the bowls etc in place, which is a bit odd for a scuffle. I understood several burley policeman, thinking it was a siege, barged their way round the table and up the unused staircase full of clutter in the corner, only to find it locked and then had to reverse and come back down again, and that some of the mess was down to them?
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I thought it turned out there hadn't been glass and sugar all over the floor, it was only in one bit? Also, in the photos, the table is still set for breakfast with the bowls etc in place, which is a bit odd for a scuffle. I understood several burley policeman, thinking it was a siege, barged their way round the table and up the unused staircase full of clutter in the corner, only to find it locked and then had to reverse and come back down again, and that some of the mess was down to them?
According to his w/s, PC Collins opened the kitchen staircase door but seeing all the clutter decided not to climb up. He returned to the scullery, leaving PC Hall to cover that stair. The cellar staircase door was stuck with hardened paint, and only forced open later by Collins who put a foot through the first tread(s). Glass from the lampshade was scattered all around, as was a broken brown sugar bowl. Collins and Delgado, who were the first two to enter the kitchen before anyone else, reported the furniture being in disarray and concluded "that a violent struggle had taken place"
I suppose most of the items on the table behaved as they might do in a magician's "pull the tablecloth free without upsetting the crockery" trick. Stayed on there by inertia.
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According to his w/s, PC Collins opened the kitchen staircase door but seeing all the clutter decided not to climb up. He returned to the scullery, leaving PC Hall to cover that stair. The cellar staircase door was stuck with hardened paint, and only forced open later by Collins who put a foot through the first tread(s). Glass from the lampshade was scattered all around, as was a broken brown sugar bowl. Collins and Delgado, who were the first two to enter the kitchen before anyone else, reported the furniture being in disarray and concluded "that a violent struggle had taken place"
I suppose most of the items on the table behaved as they might do in a magician's "pull the tablecloth free without upsetting the crockery" trick. Stayed on there by inertia.
Wasn't the photo of the kitchen table taken after the police did a perfunctory tidy-up, to clear the floor? That's why everything looks "plonked" on rather than nicely laid, as June would have left it.
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Wasn't the photo of the kitchen table taken after the police did a perfunctory tidy-up, to clear the floor? That's why everything looks "plonked" on rather than nicely laid, as June would have left it.
I've not read that although you could be right. But the crockery, knives, etc were bound to move out of place somewhat without falling off when the table was shoved back towards the Welsh Dresser.
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I've not read that although you could be right. But the crockery, knives, etc were bound to move out of place somewhat without falling off when the table was shoved back towards the Welsh Dresser.
I expect you're right, Myster! CAL reckons that only some magazines and Sheila's bowl had fallen to the floor, as well as the sugar pot which had scattered brown sugar over the floor.
That's the problem with reading so much about the case over the years, especially from the Jeremy Bamber forum. Random stuff that interests me sticks in my head, but they're not verified, unlike facts in CAL's book.
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Wasn't the photo of the kitchen table taken after the police did a perfunctory tidy-up, to clear the floor? That's why everything looks "plonked" on rather than nicely laid, as June would have left it.
Um, I think it still has Nevill in situ and I think the general idea if crime scene photos is the Police aren't meant to 'tidy them up a bit'?!
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Um, I think it still has Nevill in situ and I think the general idea if crime scene photos is the Police aren't meant to 'tidy them up a bit'?!
Yes, as I wrote to Myster, I'm probably wrong.
I do still struggle with Nevill/Ralph's position, perched on the edge of the chair, though. To me, it looks like he was placed after rigor mortis set in, because it's an impossible position. His knees would have given way, and he would have fallen to the floor.
We'll probably never know.
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I'm having difficulty with the smashed lampshade leaving glass all over the floor. What in your opinion is the dark blue thing near the ceiling?
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I'm having difficulty with the smashed lampshade leaving glass all over the floor. What in your opinion is the dark blue thing near the ceiling?
It looks like a jacket to me, just above that weird thing you have to have if you're unfortunate enough to own an Aga and want to make toast.
I know that the lampshade was antique, and difficult to replace. (Sorry if I'm not keeping up with you, I've got one eye on a morbidly-obese foster pug!)
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Who do you think placed the cushions and clothes around the scuttle, to catch the blood?
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It looks like a jacket to me, just above that weird thing you have to have if you're unfortunate enough to own an Aga and want to make toast.
I know that the lampshade was antique, and difficult to replace. (Sorry if I'm not keeping up with you, I've got one eye on a morbidly-obese foster pug!)
A jacket that is airing in the gruesome up-stream from the Aga.
(I'm with Clarissa Dickson Wright when it comes to Agas!)
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Yes, as I wrote to Myster, I'm probably wrong.
I do still struggle with Nevill/Ralph's position, perched on the edge of the chair, though. To me, it looks like he was placed after rigor mortis set in, because it's an impossible position. His knees would have given way, and he would have fallen to the floor.
We'll probably never know.
Seems unlikely given the highly undignified photo of him on the blue floor of, I assume, the Pathologist's lab (in which he seems to have acquired blue and white floral shorts/boxers - any theories on why his trousers were down?) - he'd have been an incredible weight to manoeuvre and clearly they didn't manage it well when they removed him from the body bag. I think looks like the largest 'Captain's Chair' was already lying sideways on the floor and then he appears to be straddling the uppermost side of the back of it, so that would have kept his pelvis the same height as the coal scuttle and his spine would have formed an arch between the two, given his weight would have prevented the chair from pushing back, and the angle his head was in the scuttle would stop that from sliding forward.
Pic I'm thinking of is here
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1047.msg29947#msg29947
It clearly isn't where the chair is meant to be: in the tidied up photos it's to the right of the Aga, a more convenient corner, because where it was found in the crime scene photos, if he liked to sit there he would have been blocking the door and also whoever was cooking's access to what looks like a dishwasher. So if the chair was on the right of the Aga but was knocked over sending it to the left of the Aga, it's a bit strange that it is lying on the side it is - I'd expect it to be knocked over with the back pointing towards the dishwasher, just as the other chair is knocked over in that direction. It suggests the two chairs weren't knocked over at the same time. It also looks impossible for a policeman to get right Nevill and the chair to get to the stairs without disturbing the scene.
Another odd thing is that Nevill appears to be on top of a spread-out pair of pressed trousers, any thoughts? Could he have been getting dressed in the kitchen to go out to attend to a calf? and another odd thing is that looks remarkably like 2 cushions one on top of each other next to his head, yet only the lower one has blood on it. The white town has blood soaked into it in several places, almost like it was used to tend to a wound.
And in the photo I put up for the lampshade problem: what are those white dots on the floor to the right of the picture: are they bullet casings?
I find it curious that the chair to his right is knocked forwards, it's actually quite hard to do.
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A jacket that is airing in the gruesome up-stream from the Aga.
(I'm with Clarissa Dickson Wright when it comes to Agas!)
Surely the Aga wouldn't be in in August? My in laws have another cooker (making me wonder what the point of an Aga is ;-) ). It looks nearer the foreground than the Aga and there's no sign of a light: I wondered if it was in fact a plastic lampshade that's been shredded in a fight rather than a glass one. I believe Bamber pointed up at the lampshade when AE showed him round, which struck me as odd, because when you break something glass it usuall goes to smithereens and falls down.
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Who do you think placed the cushions and clothes around the scuttle, to catch the blood?
I hadn't thought of it to catch the blood! Of course: do you think someone put his head in the coal scuttle to catch the blood?
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That would explain the trousers laid out as well: to dam the blood flow! Hence they have soaked up a lot but then there was so much blood it continued through. Well done for thinking of that 8@??)(
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Yes, as I wrote to Myster, I'm probably wrong.
I do still struggle with Nevill/Ralph's position, perched on the edge of the chair, though. To me, it looks like he was placed after rigor mortis set in, because it's an impossible position. His knees would have given way, and he would have fallen to the floor.
We'll probably never know.
But Rigor supposedly only starts between two to six hours following death, and Livor mortis/Hypostasis was consistent with the position he was found...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672)
You mean Nevill was lifted to his final position by whom?
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But Rigor supposedly only starts between two to six hours following death, and Livor mortis/Hypostasis was consistent with the position he was found...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672)
You mean Nevill was lifted to his final position by whom?
I don't know whether before or after Livor/Rigor Mortis, but yes: I now think his head was lifted and placed in the coal scuttle to contain blood flow after the trousers and cushions failed to stop it spreading. I can't see why the murderer would give a tinkers and it would need to be a bloke to be strong enough - so perhaps the police did it so the floor of their main access to the house wouldn't be slippery with a huge pool of blood?
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I need Holly here! She helps me find the pics and witness quotes! 8)><(
But I'm pretty certain the police and Bamber all said that when they arrived the lights were on inside the house, so I don't see how they could be so terribly mistaken about seeing a woman in the kitchen. Nevill's untrousered backside was facing the window and I doubt that looked feminine?
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Sorry: I keep posting scrappy little messages every time another thought pings into my head.
Why would someone try to clear-up the mess? I can't think of a single reason why Bamber, if he was trying to stage a suicide, would rearrange Nevill to minimise blood flow into the kitchen.
Could this indicate Sheila did indeed go around tidying up a bit . . . ? Could she have been doing that, rinsing her menses-stained clothes in a bucket (without even thinking about spatter) before putting on a clean nightie, going upstairs to shoot herself? Could she have reset the breakfast things if that was necessary?
This is why it would be good to know more about the 'glass' lampshade and where the sugar was. It was stated she would have blood all over her feet after the fight in the kitchen if she had done it, yet here in the photo we see there isn't blood all over the kitchen floor.
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What are these white things on the floor: cartridges? Sugar lumps?
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Sorry: I keep posting scrappy little messages every time another thought pings into my head.
Why would someone try to clear-up the mess? I can't think of a single reason why Bamber, if he was trying to stage a suicide, would rearrange Nevill to minimise blood flow into the kitchen.
Could this indicate Sheila did indeed go around tidying up a bit . . . ? Could she have been doing that, rinsing her menses-stained clothes in a bucket (without even thinking about spatter) before putting on a clean nightie, going upstairs to shoot herself? Could she have reset the breakfast things if that was necessary?
This is why it would be good to know more about the 'glass' lampshade and where the sugar was. It was stated she would have blood all over her feet after the fight in the kitchen if she had done it, yet here in the photo we see there isn't blood all over the kitchen floor.
Sheila putting her heavily blood stained clothing in a bucket,(hidden in full view) before washing/showering and changing, was something that I considered too.
Anne binned the contents of that bucket with heavily blood stained clothing. We will never know what was really in that bucket.
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What are these white things on the floor: cartridges? Sugar lumps?
Too big for sugar cubes, I think. Too square for cases. Broken china?
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They all look the same, and I thought there was no broken China - the bowls are all on the table and the dresser isn't that disturbed.
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Sheila putting her heavily blood stained clothing in a bucket,(hidden in full view) before washing/showering and changing, was something that I considered too.
Anne binned the contents of that bucket with heavily blood stained clothing. We will never know what was really in that bucket.
Not one for the gents really . . .
. . . but she needn't even have showered.
Clothes wouldn't just be put in a bucket of water: she would have put her hands in the water and rubbed the clothes fabric-to-fabric to lessen the stains then washed her hands with soap at the sink. Unbelievable no-one checked the clothing out: the outright sexism/prudishness of the age runs through the whole (male) police handling of this event, from an above-average height woman who has born twins being pathetic and weedy to kill an already injured man, to her pretty little nail-varnished fingers being to weak to pull a trigger - look: she didn't even chip her nail polish! To pulling her nightie down to cover her nether regions thus changing the blood splatter evidence, to primly looking the other way when there's a bucket of bloodstained clothing at a murder scene.
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PS but there was a shower in the downstairs loo - hence Bamber called it a bathroom - and I know I've read (waaargh need Holly to find it?!) that when the police arrived at the house the light was in in the rooms above the kitchen, which were the boys' bedroom - and the bathroom.
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PS but there was a shower in the downstairs loo - hence Bamber called it a bathroom - and I know I've read (waaargh need Holly to find it?!) that when the police arrived at the house the light was in in the rooms above the kitchen, which were the boys' bedroom - and the bathroom.
The bathroom light was on? Could have been for the twins, though. I left my bathroom light on when my children were small.
Yep there was a shower just off the boot room, it was in Carols book and this post.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg258476#msg258476
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I understood there were lights on all over the place, but the curtains were shut in the boys' bedroom and the bathroom.
Given the whole debate about seeing someone in the master bedroom, I thought the curtains were, as in the photos, open in there - otherwise they would just have refuted that claim by saying the curtains were drawn instead of "it was a trick of the moonlight". In which case I'm surprised no-one thought it odd that June and Nevill were sleeping with the curtains open.
Presumably the curtains had to be open in the kitchen for the police to approach the window and look through it.
Given the light was on in the boys' bedroom, it's perhaps more likely that light and the neighbouring bathroom light were put on by the killer: the boys wouldn't have been sleeping with the bedroom light on. But presumably the killer wouldn't have put the light before killing the boys or that would have woken them up. Personally I think the killer went around the house afterwards doing the extra head shots to make sure they were all dead after being surprised by how much effort was required to kill Nevill, and that might have been when the boys' light was put on.
If it is the case that the lights were on inside the house and there were curtains open in rooms where murders took place, Bamber would have been taking quite a risk if it was him who committed the murders - which also seems at odds with someone who is committing a murder they have coldly planned and they intend not to get caught. It seems to me the person inside didn't care if anyone outside could see what was happening in the house. Which as you know, makes me suspect it was Sheila.
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I understood there were lights on all over the place, but the curtains were shut in the boys' bedroom and the bathroom.
Given the whole debate about seeing someone in the master bedroom, I thought the curtains were, as in the photos, open in there - otherwise they would just have refuted that claim by saying the curtains were drawn instead of "it was a trick of the moonlight". In which case I'm surprised no-one thought it odd that June and Nevill were sleeping with the curtains open.
Presumably the curtains had to be open in the kitchen for the police to approach the window and look through it.
Given the light was on in the boys' bedroom, it's perhaps more likely that light and the neighbouring bathroom light were put on by the killer: the boys wouldn't have been sleeping with the bedroom light on. But presumably the killer wouldn't have put the light before killing the boys or that would have woken them up. Personally I think the killer went around the house afterwards doing the extra head shots to make sure they were all dead after being surprised by how much effort was required to kill Nevill, and that might have been when the boys' light was put on.
If it is the case that the lights were on inside the house and there were curtains open in rooms where murders took place, Bamber would have been taking quite a risk if it was him who committed the murders - which also seems at odds with someone who is committing a murder they have coldly planned and they intend not to get caught. It seems to me the person inside didn't care if anyone outside could see what was happening in the house. Which as you know, makes me suspect it was Sheila.
Good points there. Kitchen light was on and I think that they may have mistaken Neville for a female. Maybe some of the cushions etc too could have made it look like two people. I don't think Sheila was there.
I do wonder about the possible movement seen upstairs, though.
Neville's bedroom curtains probably were left open. They went to be bed when it was dark and I doubt there would be much in the way of lights outside in the country. They would also be up at the crack of dawn and kept a window open in the bedroom, so why close the curtains as they would blow about. As you say, if someone had meticulously planned the murders, they would have known about the open curtains, so were taking a mega risk. If it was on the other hand a frenzied attack by a mad man/woman, then it makes more sense.
The twins couldn't have been shot in the dark, so the murderer would have to have put the lights on, or did he use the light from the bathroom or hall?
Did Jeremy ever read the bible? would he know the appropriate Psalm?
A photograph of the Bible showed that it was open at Psalms 51–55, a section of the Bible relating to wickedness and mercy, of which the following quotations can be found:-
Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin
Save me from blood guiltiness O God
My heart is sore pained within me and the terrors of death are fallen upon me.
Examination of the blood staining on the pages of the Bible confirmed that it was this page which the book was open on.
I don't think that Jeremy actually committed the murders, but I am still unsure about Sheila.
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Ooh good bible class! I didn't know that was the passage.
So one the one hand the kitchen light was on and I think I've thrown into doubt that the shade was glass and smashed on the floor as it appears to be damaged but still on the ceiling.
But on the other it's alleged the 'glass' ceiling light was smashed leaving glass all over the floor and Sheila couldn't have done it because there was no glass on her bare feet.
I'm not even going to go up a siding about whether she would have been fully dressed, not having gone to bed, and possibly wearing shoes which they undoubtedly won't have examined. I think the kitchen floor was clearly not covered in blood and glass so it isn't so surprising little was found on the soles of her feet. Notwithstanding the fact she then walked around barefoot on carpets which would have wiped much of it off.
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Here is a more focussed photo of the breakfast table revealing the missing crockery.
(http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/_/rsrc/1335272192528/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it/Glossy.jpg?height=650 &width=780)
(http://www.i.imgur.com/IE2QXkL.jpg)
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Thank you John: what's missing, apart from a fifth setting - which doesn't look like space was necessarily left for. When I stay at my in-laws I noticed the menfolk often eat at a different time anyhow because they are working.
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Here is a more focussed photo of the breakfast table revealing the missing crockery.
(http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/_/rsrc/1335272192528/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it/Glossy.jpg?height=650 &width=780)
(http://www.i.imgur.com/IE2QXkL.jpg)
Thanks John.
Such a mish mash of china not matching, so maybe only two ate cereals.
sugar bowl is missing and marmalade, Milk and juice jugs would be in the fridge until morning.
So at the most two cereal bowls and sugar bowl.
Your photo shows that it is most likely china on the floor. Doesn't look like a lot though.
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I'd say it shows the table set for the twins (2 bowls for cereal) and the 2 women (cereal and toast). The only china I see might be broken on the floor looks like it might have been knocked off the right corner of the dresser near the door. I certainly wouldn't say it looks like there was much of a struggle, especially since some of it was moved by the police - I can well imagine the stools going flying as they swarmed through.
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I believe there is one upturned cereal bowl in front of the Welsh dresser, the other is in pieces scattered around.
The blue item on the roof appears to be the remnants of what was the ceiling light?
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I believe there is one upturned cereal bowl in front of the Welsh dresser, the other is in pieces scattered around.
The blue item on the roof appears to be the remnants of what was the ceiling light?
If as we are led to believe that Sheila and Nev fought over the kitchen table with the rifle waving about wildly and smashing the ceiling light there would be small pieces of debris all over the floor which someone in bare feet could not avoid. Blood from Nev's wounds would have gone everywhere and spattered his assailant.
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I believe there is one upturned cereal bowl in front of the Welsh dresser, the other is in pieces scattered around.
The blue item on the roof appears to be the remnants of what was the ceiling light?
That's Tesko territory... LOL! What are we looking at... the blue and white coat hung on the wall to the right of the AGA?
A photo of the kitchen after clean-up showing light bulb without lampshade. If any broken pieces of glass were left attached to the threaded fastener of the light bulb socket, then it looks like they've been removed...
(http://i.imgur.com/4mCOSWx.jpg?1)
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Did Jeremy ever read the bible? would he know the appropriate Psalm?
I don't think that Jeremy actually committed the murders, but I am still unsure about Sheila.
Jeremy Bamber?.. read the Bible?... he treated them like hot potatoes. He couldn't wait to drop June's Bible on Sheila's arm!!!
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Jeremy Bamber?.. read the Bible?... he treated them like hot potatoes. He couldn't wait to drop June's Bible on Sheila's arm!!!
Oh piffle: it's much more likely the bible was open on her chest and that the big bloodstain on the top-right of the double page was resting on her nightie as it wicked off the blood from her neck. Whenever her head rolled back onto the floor the bible slid down to rest on the floor and a bit of her arm.
Look at the bloodstains at the top of her nightie: you can see it has moved when her head did because the bloodstains on each fold don't quite align any more.
But tut-tut: this has nothing to do with seeing Sheila in the kitchen 8(0(*
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I believe there is one upturned cereal bowl in front of the Welsh dresser, the other is in pieces scattered around.
The blue item on the roof appears to be the remnants of what was the ceiling light?
I'll grant you one suspected bowl, but not two: if there are 2 place settings missing it's a bit odd that they are from opposing ends of the table but wound up on the floor by the dresser! 8)--))
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That's Tesko territory... LOL! What are we looking at... the blue and white coat hung on the wall to the right of the AGA?
A photo of the kitchen after clean-up showing light bulb without lampshade. If any broken pieces of glass were left attached to the threaded fastener of the light bulb socket, then it looks like they've been removed...
(http://i.imgur.com/4mCOSWx.jpg?1)
I've no idea what the Mythical Tesko has or hasn't said, sorry. But thanks for posting this photo, which confirms there is a central light in the middle of the room, midway across the Aga, because that's where the dark blue thing is in the other picture which must indeed be the lampshade. I deduce from its shininess and the fact it's still there that it is made of plastic not glass and that if the kitchen light was on when the police arrived means the bulb was also not broken. I'd also be surprised, if Bamber was the murderer, that he would point it out as he did.
So it's not so surprising that Sheila would not have broken glass or blood on her bare feet.
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I've no idea what the Mythical Tesko has or hasn't said, sorry. But thanks for posting this photo, which confirms there is a central light in the middle of the room, midway across the Aga, because that's where the dark blue thing is in the other picture which must indeed be the lampshade. I deduce from its shininess and the fact it's still there that it is made of plastic not glass and that if the kitchen light was on when the police arrived means the bulb was also not broken. I'd also be surprised, if Bamber was the murderer, that he would point it out as he did.
So it's not so surprising that Sheila would not have broken glass or blood on her bare feet.
Which dark blue thing are you talking about? If it's the hanging coat, then I can search for a photo showing it is definitely a coat, not a lampshade.
I reckon the shade was something similar to this, made of translucent glass and that's what all those small white shattered pieces are on the floor. Could have been without any decoration too... just a plain smoked-glass one.
(http://i.imgur.com/02iJxkc.jpg)
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Well that's the sort of think I was expecting from the description but on Pg 3 I posted a photo saying 'what's this'. It seems terribly high up to hang a coat? Does the room have a very high ceiling?
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Well that's the sort of think I was expecting from the description but on Pg 3 I posted a photo saying 'what's this'. It seems terribly high up to hang a coat? Does the room have a very high ceiling?
Yeah.. it's an old farmhouse, so ceilings were fairly high. I lived in a similar old house complete with one of those pull-up-and-down clothes driers on pulleys hanging from the ceiling, which you can just make out above AS300...etc. The coat could have been hung on that to dry after washing, or on a hook fixed to the wall.
This is a clearer picture, but only shows the lower part of that coat unfortunately...
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Rats. Bizarrely shiny?! Do you think that's where the trousers came from?
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Rats. Bizarrely shiny?! Do you think that's where the trousers came from?
I don't see any shine... it's just a blue coat with a white stripe one each arm and white edging to the zip.
The trousers look like jeans, could be Nevill's or Jeremy's, and from the kitchen or a different room. The cushions obviously from the chairs, and the white towel, one used in the kitchen. The puzzle is who put them there?
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I don't see any shine... it's just a blue coat with a white stripe one each arm and white edging to the zip.
The trousers look like jeans, could be Nevill's or Jeremy's, and from the kitchen or a different room. The cushions obviously from the chairs, and the white towel, one used in the kitchen. The puzzle is who put them there?
Well thanks for clearing up,the ceiling height! What do you think of the idea his head was placed in the coal scuttle to catch the blood?
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Well thanks for clearing up,the ceiling height! What do you think of the idea his head was placed in the coal scuttle to catch the blood?
Don't mentch!
You might have seen or used one of these dryers sometime in the past...
http://pulleymaid.com/deluxe_clothes_airer.htm (http://pulleymaid.com/deluxe_clothes_airer.htm)
I'll come back later to the question of why his head and body were found in such a strange position, when I've thought it over again. It's been discussed here before, but my opinion changes every time I see the photo.
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Yes I know the kind! The sort of thing that only works when there's an Aga and no central heating ;-)
Sorry: I didn't realise it had been discussed before: I will have another rootle through to see if I can find where.
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That's Tesko territory... LOL! What are we looking at... the blue and white coat hung on the wall to the right of the AGA?
A photo of the kitchen after clean-up showing light bulb without lampshade. If any broken pieces of glass were left attached to the threaded fastener of the light bulb socket, then it looks like they've been removed...
That's a coat alright, hanging up on the adjustable Victorian clothes airer, a photo of a similar one below.
You can just see one end of it (top left) in the photo you posted of the Bambers kitchen.
(http://www.victorianclotheslineonline.com.au/store/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/A677classicairer-800.jpg)
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I've no idea what the Mythical Tesko has or hasn't said, sorry. But thanks for posting this photo, which confirms there is a central light in the middle of the room, midway across the Aga, because that's where the dark blue thing is in the other picture which must indeed be the lampshade. I deduce from its shininess and the fact it's still there that it is made of plastic not glass and that if the kitchen light was on when the police arrived means the bulb was also not broken. I'd also be surprised, if Bamber was the murderer, that he would point it out as he did.
So it's not so surprising that Sheila would not have broken glass or blood on her bare feet.
It wasn't a plastic lampshade Pb, it was a glass globe and it shattered into smithereens when hit with the rifle.
Apologies...I posted without reading the last few posts so duplicated some of the discussion. As they say in South Africa however, better overkill than no kill!!
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Well thanks for clearing up,the ceiling height! What do you think of the idea his head was placed in the coal scuttle to catch the blood?
Was the escape exit near the body? It may have been to prevent blood pooling in the area that the murderer would need access to, or have to walk past to make an escape or go for a wash/shower?
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That's Tesko territory... LOL! What are we looking at... the blue and white coat hung on the wall to the right of the AGA?
A photo of the kitchen after clean-up showing light bulb without lampshade. If any broken pieces of glass were left attached to the threaded fastener of the light bulb socket, then it looks like they've been removed...
(http://i.imgur.com/4mCOSWx.jpg?1)
You're right of course Myster, it was a blue coat which had probably been washed and hung up to dry for the next days outing. That's the danger with discussing old threads without reading through them properly. What a shame June never got to enjoy the boys being at the farm but then that was the whole point, Jeremy resented them so much as they were about to be involved with the farm and inherit part of June's estate and quite possibly some of Nevill's.
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Was the escape exit near the body? It may have been to prevent blood pooling in the area that the murderer would need access to, or have to walk past to make an escape or go for a wash/shower?
If the murderer was Bamber it looks a bit odd to set up a suicidal-rampage scene and then dick about with the nearest-to-hand items to stop the blood spreading. I have to admit, I'm a similar height and size to Sheila and I'd have difficulty lifting an unco-operative inert man that size, even if it was just the head end. I'd say it's most likely the police, because they had about 50 policemen traipsing through the house (is that actually true BTW?) who would have walked blood everywhere because that was a significant access point for them - which rather suggests the police cleaned aside what was on the floor!
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If the murderer was Bamber it looks a bit odd to set up a suicidal-rampage scene and then dick about with the nearest-to-hand items to stop the blood spreading. I have to admit, I'm a similar height and size to Sheila and I'd have difficulty lifting an unco-operative inert man that size, even if it was just the head end. I'd say it's most likely the police, because they had about 50 policemen traipsing through the house (is that actually true BTW?) who would have walked blood everywhere because that was a significant access point for them - which rather suggests the police cleaned aside what was on the floor!
Could the clothing and cushion have been knocked from a chair and the pulley?
Sounds likely to me, since the lamp was broken and it would be higher than the pulley. The police aren't allowed to move anything at the scene of a crime. They would have to bridge the blood, use another entry, or break a window.
I don’t think Sheila was ever laying in the kitchen.
Rather a lot of people were traipsing about.
Holly could probably tell you the exact amount without searching about for the actual numbers.
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But surely if the police had moved Nevill from off the floor they would have sat him upright in a chair, and not in such a precariously balanced and undignified position with pyjamas down straddling a chair back and his head jammed in the coal scuttle? I believe PC Collins who reported seeing a woman's body through the kitchen window would only have taken a cursory glance, wary of having his head blown off by a crazy gun-toting Sheila. Nevill was facing downwards and oriented away from the window towards the Welsh Dresser, with long unkempt hair covering his face part-hidden in the scuttle, hence easily mistaken for a female.
And definitely not moved by Sheila. Her friend Tara Tomkinson who saw her only a week before the murders reported that she needed help just getting up from a seated position as she was so weak and worn out.
The lowered position of Nevill's exhausted body with head in the scuttle would have been ideal for delivering those four final bullets, two to the top and two just above the right ear, which is why I think there was so much blood running down the nearside of the scuttle and pooling on the floor there. In other words, Nevill wasn't moved from elsewhere by anyone (the killer or the police) after those shots. Any blood flowing from his earlier jaw and mouth wounds on the left-hand side and from other facial wounds would have drained more into the scuttle itself, imo.
I also think that the kitchen would have been a restricted area, with police, doctor and mortuary staff who arrived later entering through the front door rather than the back so as not to further disturb all the debris on the floor.
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You're right of course Myster, it was a blue coat which had probably been washed and hung up to dry for the next days outing. That's the danger with discussing old threads without reading through them properly. What a shame June never got to enjoy the boys being at the farm but then that was the whole point, Jeremy resented them so much as they were about to be involved with the farm and inherit part of June's estate and quite possibly some of Nevill's.
Somehow I don't think the twins would have enjoyed their stay with June from my understanding of the way Colin and Sheila felt about the way she tried to control and "convert" them. Daniel's disturbing drawings of 'Granny' and WHF say it more than any words can describe.
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Could the clothing and cushion have been knocked from a chair and the pulley?
Sounds likely to me, since the lamp was broken and it would be higher than the pulley. The police aren't allowed to move anything at the scene of a crime. They would have to bridge the blood, use another entry, or break a window.
I don’t think Sheila was ever laying in the kitchen.
Rather a lot of people were traipsing about.
Holly could probably tell you the exact amount without searching about for the actual numbers.
Crikey, she'd be giving us the inside leg measurement and helmet size of every single one! @)(++(*
Nice and peaceful for a change! ?{)(** Let's hope it lasts. 8((()*/
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Crikey, she'd be giving us the inside leg measurement and helmet size of every single one! @)(++(*
Nice and peaceful for a change! ?{)(** Let's hope it lasts. 8((()*/
Aww, Myster. You know that you don't mean that.
Holly has an immense amount of knowledge of this case and I certainly miss her.
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Anna is right, the police don't go about moving things. Nev was found where he collapsed with his head in the coal scuttle after falling forward out of the chair.
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I don't think he can have fallen forward out if the chair - it's certainly what his body-position suggests, but he appears to be straddling the over-turned chair's back so that he is effectively sitting on the side of it. If he had slid off the chair I'd expect it to be tipped over on top of him.
Anna the trousers are laid along the floor perfectly straight and flat and it's two cushions one on top of the other plus a towel.
The police admitted to and clearly have moved Sheila's body and the gun during the photos, so I don't think it's impossible they could have moved this: don't forget they'd been in the house for 2-3hrs before the photographer came and no pathologists or ballistics experts visited the scene at all, but about 40-50 police apparently did. There's evidence Holly could find that a policeman was put on the entrance to write down everyone who went in and out from the scene but in the end was told to stop by a senior officer because so many people had gone in and out of all the other doors without being recorded that his work was worthless. They certainly made a pig's ear of it.
One of the issues raised by the dammed off blood flow though is that there isn't blood all over the floor.
Myster: good point about the position for the headshots. I'm going to counter your weedy Sheila theory though by pointing out she'd taken the boys out for a walk round the countryside that day. As she was mixing and matching prescription drugs with strong recreational ones perhaps that explains the torpor her friend found her in on that day.
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I don't think he can have fallen forward out if the chair - it's certainly what his body-position suggests, but he appears to be straddling the over-turned chair's back so that he is effectively sitting on the side of it. If he had slid off the chair I'd expect it to be tipped over on top of him.
(http://i.imgur.com/DjkLVLZ.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/KRqE8.jpg)
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Thank you John: those are the photos I was thinking of!
Is that a head-wound quite far forward to the top of his head in the second picture? If so, it looks like an awkward shot if he was there when it was fired: more like an execution shot when he was already on his knees. Otherwise I can't see much damage to the poor man's head for the theory that he was shot in that position.
The first photo is where I think it's striking how neatly laid-out the trousers and cushions are. I thought his head might have been on the floor with presumably a large pool of blood forming which was caught by the trousers and cushions, but when it breached the trousers someone lifted his head and placed the coal scuttle beneath it which caught the rest of the blood, but perhaps that much did just come down the side of the coal scuttle. There was a heck of a lot of blood came out later at the morgue and for so many injuries to his head, with his torso elevated I'd have thought there'd be much more blood than that on the kitchen floor several hours later?
Also if there was a fight by the Aga it looks surprisingly tidy, with neatly folded towels over the rail and the kettle not disturbed. I assume by the time he was there he was unable to see to pick up something like the kettle to throw at his attacker: it must have been very quick.
I think it's possible EP mistook the hair to be June's. But I also think it's possible they saw Sheila - but not wandering around with a gunshot wound (that strikes me as ridiculous). Do any of you super-sleuths recall evidence that the light was on in the kitchen when police arrived?
("HOLLLYYYYY!!?")
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The cushions could have been on the other upturned chair before it toppled. The cushions match the one on the granny chair. Maybe two cushions ready to raise the twins up to the table for breakfast?
The raid team recorded which lights were on when they forced entry:-
kitchen light, downstairs hall light, the light in the upstairs corridor at the rear (which shone through the curtains of the twins room and the bathroom next door), the landing light, and oddly the light in the box room above the front door. The switch was inside that room and the half glazed door was closed.
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The cushions could have been on the other upturned chair before it toppled. The cushions match the one on the granny chair. Maybe two cushions ready to raise the twins up to the table for breakfast?
The raid team recorded which lights were on when they forced entry:-
kitchen light, downstairs hall light, the light in the upstairs corridor at the rear (which shone through the curtains of the twins room and the bathroom next door), the landing light, and oddly the light in the box room above the front door. The switch was inside that room and the half glazed door was closed.
Brilliant Anna: thanks, that was what I was looking for!
The box room is very weird &%+((£
So it if Sheila was alive it is highly likely they would see her walking around, or possibly sitting on the floor in a daze, in the kitchen.
And how could the kitchen light be on if it was broken in a struggle?
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Brilliant Anna: thanks, that was what I was looking for!
The box room is very weird &%+((£
So it if Sheila was alive it is highly likely they would see her walking around, or possibly sitting on the floor in a daze, in the kitchen.
And how could the kitchen light be on if it was broken in a struggle?
It was only the shade that was broken. The lightbulb can be seen in one of the photos
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It was only the shade that was broken. The lightbulb can be seen in one of the photos
Do you think if the glass shade was broken by a flying gun-but it would have broken everything, so perhaps the shade was hit by a bullet casing?
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Do you think if the glass shade was broken by a flying gun-but it would have broken everything, so perhaps the shade was hit by a bullet casing?
The glass used back then for lampshades was very thin. I think a bullet case is a possibility. Especially if it bounced off something. Cereal bowl? Depends where the shooter was positioned as well, I suppose.
I suspect that we are off topic now.
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Not entirely: glass on the floor and not on Sheila's feet was given as a reason precluding her from both murdering Nevill and from being seen in the kitchen, and it seems odd the shade broke due to a struggle but the bulb didn't but it means that with the light on yes, they could have quite easily seen Sheila if it was possible she was alive.
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Not entirely: glass on the floor and not on Sheila's feet was given as a reason precluding her from both murdering Nevill and from being seen in the kitchen, and it seems odd the shade broke due to a struggle but the bulb didn't but it means that with the light on yes, they could have quite easily seen Sheila if it was possible she was alive.
If it was her in the kitchen, she could have had her feet covered at the time. I doubt if anyone who was about to commit crazed murders, would do so in their bare feet. However she died with bare feet. I thought that I read on here that there was blood on her feet?
Could the trousers on the floor be hers. If she had never undressed and the trousers were her own and other bits of clothing in soak, in the bin, she could have changed upstairs. I don't believe any shoes or slippers were examined.
I keep thinking about that poor dog, who apparently nipped at heels. How many men would be tolerant enough to ignore it?
Just found.....Ann observed that the coal scuttle was missing and saw the broken lampshade above the table.
We continued along the passage on the ground floor and turned right into the lounge, she remembered.
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Crispy wasn't ignored by the police. He was found whimpering under the double bed and put in a cupboard temporarily so that he didn't interfere any further with the crime scene. However, Jeremy decided that he had no use for the poor dog and asked the police to get rid of it... he was frightened of it biting through the cables of his hi-fi and television!
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Thanks Myster. I did read that he got rid of it.
To be honest, the poor dog must have been in a really bad state after going through all that. The police breaking the door down must have been his limit....Poor wee Beastie 8(8-))
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Thanks Myster. I did read that he got rid of it.
To be honest, the poor dog must have been in a really bad state after going through all that. The police breaking the door down must have been his limit....Poor wee Beastie 8(8-))
Indeed, poor wee Crispy was Bamber's 6th victim.
(http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/bamber_091.jpg)
Victims, Sheila Caffell (holding Shih Tzu) and June Bamber with Jeremy.
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Indeed, poor wee Crispy was Bamber's 6th victim.
(http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/bamber_091.jpg)
Victims, Sheila Caffell (holding Shih Tzu) and June Bamber with Jeremy.
Lovely photo, John.
Is that the same dog as the one at the time of the shooting?
I know that Sheila's grandma bought her a dog of that breed, when she was 11 ....just before she was sent to boarding school. If that is the same dog? It must have been very old. Sheila loved that dog apparently, so definitely wouldn't have hurt it.
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Lovely photo, John.
Is that the same dog as the one at the time of the shooting?
I know that Sheila's grandma bought her a dog of that breed, when she was 11 ....just before she was sent to boarding school. If that is the same dog? It must have been very old. Sheila loved that dog apparently, so definitely wouldn't have hurt it.
I think that might be Sweepy, the dog Sheila had for her tenth birthday. (Those dogs all look the same to me!)
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I think that might be Sweepy, the dog Sheila had for her tenth birthday. (Those dogs all look the same to me!)
... and ditto for pugs (http://i.imgur.com/RifDnsL.gif)
The calendar's hard to read but appears to be either for 1968 or 1974 - April 7th fell on the Sunday in both those years, making Sheila 11 or 17 years old respectively, and the dog 1 or 7 years old. Does she look about 17 and Jeremy 13, (Sheila born: 1957, Jeremy: 1961) or do they both look younger?
I think it's definitely Sheila's Sweepy, but when he/she died June got Crispy for herself as a replacement.
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Indeed, poor wee Crispy was Bamber's 6th victim.
(http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/bamber_091.jpg)
Victims, Sheila Caffell (holding Shih Tzu) and June Bamber with Jeremy.
On the contrary: I'd have thought if Bamber had a hated dog yapping round his ankles throughout the murder he'd have shot it there and then and one cartridge would have sufficed.
He was at boarding school and then went to the Southern Hemisphere: there's no reason why he would have bonded with the dog. I believe he asked EP to deal with it - they could have rehoused it surely instead of putting it down . . . ?
Some people don't have lives they can or want to incorporate a dog into. A great shame Ann Eaton didn't ask to have Crispy.
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I think that might be Sweepy, the dog Sheila had for her tenth birthday. (Those dogs all look the same to me!)
I think you and Myster could be right, I have edited the above posts on that basis. 8((()*/
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On the contrary: I'd have thought if Bamber had a hated dog yapping round his ankles throughout the murder he'd have shot it there and then and one cartridge would have sufficed.
He was at boarding school and then went to the Southern Hemisphere: there's no reason why he would have bonded with the dog. I believe he asked EP to deal with it - they could have rehoused it surely instead of putting it down . . . ?
Some people don't have lives they can or want to incorporate a dog into. A great shame Ann Eaton didn't ask to have Crispy.
You have to remember the plan was to incriminate Sheila. You must also remember that the dog probably hid out of fear and was quivering in a corner somewhere only coming out to bark when she heard strange voices (the cops) in the house.
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You have to remember the plan was to incriminate Sheila. You must also remember that the dog probably hid out of fear and was quivering in a corner somewhere only coming out to bark when she heard strange voices (the cops) in the house.
Family Annihilators also often shoot the dog: I thought it could be heard both by the telephone exchange and also by the police outside, outside barking incessantly until shortly before the police entered the house, when it suddenly stopped?
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I think that might be Sweepy, the dog Sheila had for her tenth birthday. (Those dogs all look the same to me!)
Thanks Puglove 8((()*/