UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on May 31, 2014, 11:39:23 AM
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THe Mccanns ate at the outside Tapas Restaurant. The Tapas Bar was near but a seperate building entirely
I have eaten there in the same restaurant as the Mccanns... and KNOW
The Tapas Bar building is a proper permanent construction type building.. Presumably it had to be strong because booze was stored inside.
The Tapas restaurant is like a temporary type building. When eating there you feel like you are in Ocean Club garden. It is not secure in any way
Two different buildings (see below)
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tapasbarrestaurant.jpg)
The barman was in a separate building and if behind the bar would IIRC be looking in a Easterly direction. The Tapas restaurant was in a westerly direction, with a solid wall in between .... so not even a glimpse thru an open doorway into the Tapas restaurant.
So how much should we depend on his statement? Not a lot, I think.
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THe Mccanns ate at the outside Tapas Restaurant. The Tapas Bar was near but a seperate building entirely
I have eaten there in the same restaurant as the Mccanns... and KNOW
The Tapas Bar building is a proper permanent construction type building.. Presumably it had to be strong because booze was stored inside.
The Tapas restaurant is like a temporay type building. When eating there you feel like you are in Ocean Club garden. It is not secure in any way
It's a patio of Tapas Bar/Restaurant, my dear. There is no Tapas Restaurant AND Tapas Bar in the Ocean Club. Stop confusing people, please.
Two different buildings ........... tough, you have it wrong
The barman was in a seperate building and if behind the bar would IIRC be looking in a Easterly direction. The Tapas restaurant was in a westerly direction, with a solid wall in between .... so not even a glimpse thru an open doorway into the Tapas restaurant.
A quote from Salcedas rogatory:
I began working as a functionary at the Ocean Club on the 4th of April 2007 and my charge was to serve the bar and the Tapas Bar tables
He was serving tables. Yes, these outside too.
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It's a patio of Tapas Bar/Restaurant, my dear. There is no Tapas Restaurant AND Tapas Bar in the Ocean Club. Stop confusing people, please.
A quote from Salcedas rogatory:
I began working as a functionary at the Ocean Club on the 4th of April 2007 and my charge was to serve the bar and the Tapas Bar tables
He was serving tables. Yes, these outside too.
You are totally wrong. Martina, they are two seperate buildings. The bar is well constructed and lockable. It is quite big and has a longish bar and tables. I think only snacks are eaten in the Tapas bar. Meals are eaten in the outside restaurant which is a much more flimsy seaside / beach like structure.
When we ate in the Outside restaurant - seperate building - noone was eating in the Bar.
It can be proved by looking at GEarth that there are two seperate buildings, but I dont know how to post GE images unfortunately. Zoom right in and you will see what I am saying is true.
The two sperate buildings are not far apart but they are apart.
Martina, I think you owe me an apology .... but I doubt you are capable of that ... for some bizarre reason, most of you are unable to admit being wrong, or to apologise.
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You are totally wrong. Martina, they are two seperate buildings. The bar is well constructed and lockable. It is quite big and has a longish bar and tables. I think only snacks are eaten in the Tapas bar. Meals are eaten in the outside restaurant which is a much more flimsy seaside / beach like structure.
When we ate in the Outside restaurant - seperate building - noone was eating in the Bar.
It can be proved by looking at GEarth that there are two seperate buildings, but I dont know how to post GE images unfortunately. Zoom right in and you will see what I am saying is true.
The two sperate buildings are not far apart but they are apart.
Martina, I think you owe me an apology .... but I doubt you are capable of that ... for some bizarre reason, most of you are unable to admit being wrong, or to apologise.
...and presumably you had drinks as well ?
Interesting that was never mentioned on the Crimewatch program. >@@(*&) 8)-)))
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You are totally wrong. Martina, they are two seperate buildings. The bar is well constructed and lockable. It is quite big and has a longish bar and tables. I think only snacks are eaten in the Tapas bar. Meals are eaten in the outside restaurant which is a much more flimsy seaside / beach like structure.
When we ate in the Outside restaurant - seperate building - noone was eating in the Bar.
It can be proved by looking at GEarth that there are two seperate buildings, but I dont know how to post GE images unfortunately. Zoom right in and you will see what I am saying is true.
The two sperate buildings are not far apart but they are apart.
I think you just shot yourself in the foot, Sadie. Yes, there is an aerial shot, that shows two separate buildings labelled as the Tapas Bar/Restaurant, but it is a mistake, These two buildings house actually the Toddlers/Mini Club. It is shown here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html)
Now, a Tapas Bar is placed in one, elnongated building, with a patio, under a roof. You can see it on this picture:
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dm090312c.JPG)
One building, and all the tables are served by the same staff. I seriously doubt you vere anywhere near Praia de Luz.
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...and presumably you had drinks as well ?
Interesting that was never mentioned on the Crimewatch program. >@@(*&) 8)-)))
Cant remember what we drank. Most likely water or Coca cola tbh. and the regular waiter brought them
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Cant remeber what we drank. Most likely water or Coca cola tbh. and the regular waiter brought them
So why didn't the Crimewatch program mention the drinking, and of course, no mention of the apartment being unlocked ?
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I think you just shot yourself in the foot, Sadie. Yes, there is an aerial shot, that shows two separate buildings labelled as the Tapas Bar/Restaurant, but it is a mistake, These two buildings house actually the Toddlers/Mini Club. It is shown here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html)
Now, a Tapas Bar is placed in one, elnongated building, with a patio, under a roof. You can see it on this picture:
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dm090312c.JPG)
One building, and all the tables are served by the same staff. I seriously doubt you vere anywhere near Praia de Luz.
I ddidn't do anything that would require an apology. And you, my dear Sadie, you bully and insult everyone who does not agree with you. Maybe it's you that owe an apology?
Hahhah
You obviously dont understand when one building is partially in front of another, how it can appear that the two buildings are one.
I used to teach this sort of thing and perspective and know many people find it difficult.
The tapas bar is the building with the tiled roof. The tapas restaurant is partially in front of it from this view and is the flat roofed building. They are seperate buildings
Try not to be so stroppy and argue with someone who HAS been there. Furthermore eaten there. It just makes you look silly whhen you get it wrong ... then persist in getting it wrong ... cos many people will understand how one building in front of another can look joined, even when it is not.
Pegasus showed a photograph that just might show the gap if it was at the right angle. A zoomed in GE image shows the buildings apart.
Still if you cant accept the truth so be it.
Where you, perchance, one of the "NO neck" people about Madeleines photo by the pool ?
You do owe me an apology but I doubt you have the courage to admit you are wrong.
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Hahhah
You obviously dont understand when one building is partially in front of another, how it can appear that the two buildings are one.
I used to teach this sort of thing and perspective and know many people find it difficult.
The tapas bar is the building with the tiled roof. The tapas restaurant is partially in front of it from this view and is the flat roofed building. They are seperate buildings
The roofed thingy is not a building, it's just a construction shielding the patio of the Tapas Bar. And here how it looks inside:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LzvBljZy1xs/Uxt1AeMjgTI/AAAAAAAAH2k/SdbWsCpIEnY/s1600/Promo+17.jpg)
Just a roof over the tables. No place for separate kitchen and other stuff.
You do owe me an apology but I doubt you have the courage to admit you are wrong.[/size]
I don't owe you anything. Better get over it.
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I can't argue this point because I have never been there. But I know that Sadie has. So I shall believe her.
Thanks, Sadie. This has always puzzled me. A Tapas Bar is where they serve Tapas. The Tapas Restaurant is where they served ordinary food. Two separate locations.
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I can't argue this point because I have never been there. But I know that Sadie has. So I shall believe her.
Thanks, Sadie. This has always puzzled me. A Tapas Bar is where they serve Tapas. The Tapas Restaurant is where they served ordinary food. Two separate locations.
Has anyone disputed they were eating ???
However, the point was they were drinking for consecutive nights for several hours in a row, and eating is not something done for prolonged periods.
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Has anyone disputed they were eating ???
However, the point was they were drinking for consecutive nights for several hours in a row, and eating is not something done for prolonged periods.
Eating is done for prolonged periods in France. I have been at Dinners that have taken as long as four or five hours, and not all that much drinking goes on because eating tends to suppress the desire for alcohol.
These sort of Dinners are a way of life now in my house.
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Eating is done for prolonged periods in France. I have been at Dinners that have taken as long as four or five hours, and not all that much drinking goes on because eating tends to suppress the desire for alcohol.
These sort of Dinners are a way of life now in my house.
...................but the mccanns and their associates are not Europeans. 8)-)))
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I can't remember the details but, with the exception of Russell, all the others had finished their meals by the time the alarm was raised. As they hadn't all arrived and settled themselves down until about 9 pm, the meal clearly didn't take that long to order and devour.
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...................but the mccanns and their associates are not Europeans. 8)-)))
Nor am I.
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...................but the mccanns and their associates are not Europeans. 8)-)))
Oh, that's news to me 8)-)))
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The roofed thingy is not a building, it's just a construction shielding the patio of the Tapas Bar. And here how it looks inside:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LzvBljZy1xs/Uxt1AeMjgTI/AAAAAAAAH2k/SdbWsCpIEnY/s1600/Promo+17.jpg)
Just a roof over the tables. No place for separate kitchen and other stuff.
I don't owe you anything. Better get over it.
From what I remember, the kitchen area was at the back left hand side (of the picture) and it had a kind of big barbeque. I think it also had a removable cover/ roof to keep the rain off, if necessary.. You will see flames in the picture .. that was where the cooking went on IIRC. I was more interested in OC itself and didn't take so much interest in the cooking area, but I think it was cooked there. The menu was limited but I cant remember exactly what was availanble.
If you look at the picture carefully you will see on the right hand side, a long break in the windows and the blackness of the sky above and to the side. That is the gap between the two buildings. It is not a big gap but it is a definite gap.
They are two buildings , not one
Both buildings had huge opening sections and you could see straight thru. However, the bar backed onto the wall so that the barman was facing in a westerly direction ... and it was a different building. The restaurant was in an easterly direction, so the barman had no view of the restaurant unless he left the bar
Hope this explains it Martina
And explains my reason for not putting too much weight behind the statement of the barman. He wasn't in the restaurant. He was in another room, another building in fact.
Thanks for the photo, it helped me explain. It also brought back memories .. altho I thought the tables were round.
I appreciate that there are some people unable to admit they were wrong.
It's OK that you cant apologise for the abuse, or being wrong. Tells readers what sort of person you are
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It is a fair point to make about the difference between the tapas bar and restaurant. When I first looked at the resort in detail I accepted the existing online photos as being accurate but I soon found out that some are wrong. One might think that the restaurant is the main roofed building and the bar the tented one but it is the other way round.
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It is a fair point to make about the difference between the tapas bar and restaurant. When I first looked at the resort in detail I accepted the existing online photos as being accurate but I soon found out that some are wrong. One might think that the restaurant is the main roofed building and the bar the tented one but it is the other way round.
The point is both structures were served by the same staff so I don't know why Sadie tries to convince everyone, that Jeronimo Salcedas, who was not bartending during the 3rd May evening, but serving the tables, couldn't see Gerry at the pool area.
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When we ate in the Outside restaurant - seperate building - noone was eating in the Bar.
When eating out sometimes after finishing their dinner a few diners may retire from restaurant table to the restaurant's bar area a few paces away for a quick after-dinner drink like Amarguinha.
(They didn't have Amaretto)
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As an example of how the Press continue to get the simplest detail wrong see the photo below which was published by the Daily Mail earlier today. The tapas bar is depicted outside the actual grounds and remote from its true location.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/02/article-2645906-1E6600DE00000578-537_634x483.jpg)
Corrected photo now being posted by the Daily Mail.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/02/article-2645906-1E68666300000578-426_634x483.jpg)
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The point is both structures were served by the same staff so I don't know why Sadie tries to convince everyone, that Jeronimo Salcedas, who was not bartending during the 3rd May evening, but serving the tables, couldn't see Gerry at the pool area.
Jeronimo. nice bloke that he seems, is observant but hopeless on times. He gave two wildly different times in two statements. There was an anomoly of about 40 minutes between them IIRC.
I never intimated that Jeronimo couldn't see Gerry. Please do not put words in my mouth. What I said was that the bar tender could not see the Tapas table from behind the bar and would not be able to see what was going on there.
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Jeronimo. nice bloke that he seems, is observant but hopeless on times. He gave two wildly different times in two statements. There was an anomoly of about 40 minutes between them IIRC.
I never intimated that Jeronimo couldn't see Gerry. Please do not put words in my mouth. What I said was that the bar tender could not see the Tapas table from behind the bar and would not be able to see what was going on there.
And coincidentally, or maybe even accidentally you wrote it after I quoted the statement of Jeronimo, the bartender, who happened to be serving tables the 3rd May night. Of course.
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Is that the Tapas bar/restaurant? The one that looks a bit like an unsidedown Christmas stocking?
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Is that the Tapas bar/restaurant? The one that looks a bit like an unsidedown Christmas stocking?
Hi Cariad
Yep the tapas bar is a bit like a brown upside Christmas stocking at the bottom of the image. Most of the Outside Tapas Restaurant is immediately to the east of that, but is largely covered by a tree top. The Outside restaurant goes as far East as the bottom RH corner of the pool.
(http://i.imgur.com/ss3dyG1.jpg)
Soz, dont know how to make it enlarge. Would be grateful for guidance. [ sorted ]
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4329.0;attach=3979;image
Something I picked up from the inside photo up the page, but I hadn't realised when I ate there, is that the tree actually grows within the restaurant with its head above the roof. No wonder most of the roof is covered by branches. Clever, cos not only is it attractive to have it in there, but the leaves will provide a canopy to keep the sun off the roof, so help keep it cool in there.
Went to a wedding once where the reception was in a huge marque on the lawns. There was a smallish heavily pruned tree within and all the guests hung their hats on the branches. Ever so pretty it was... and useful.
IIRC the bottom (southern) part of the Tapas bar building was the kiddies club. I think you entered it by the tennis courts
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A view looking east towards the tennis courts and the white tented kiddies club beyond located on the 1st floor. The tiled roof of the tapas bar can be see on the left.
(http://i.imgur.com/6czo6Sy.jpg)
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At this point, does it matter?
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At this point, does it matter?
At the juncture, it is vitally important to try and distract from the main event.
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At this point, does it matter?
Not in the slightest.
They were served FOOD and DRINK.
FACT.
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At the juncture, it is vitally important to try and distract from the main event.
Intensely.
Have you noticed only the McFanns are still trying?
Clarence gave up months ago.
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A view looking east towards the tennis courts and the white tented kiddies club beyond located on the 1st floor. The tiled roof of the tapas bar can be see on the left.
(http://i.imgur.com/6czo6Sy.jpg)
I dont remember thta white tented building when we were there, John, but I guess it must have been.
If thta is the case it is more likely that you are right than I am. It was evening, dusk and IIRC locked off when we were there.
It just amazed me how much they fitted into such a small space. Very good planning, I guess by architect Robin Crosland, who along with David Symington and Garveigh owned it.
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At the juncture, it is vitally important to try and distract from the main event.
At any juncture it is vital that information is correct to provide an absolute datum to work from.... and prevent further myths developing
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it is not a myth to say they were DRINKING and EATING.
Eating for a short period ,then drinking throughout the evenings involved, apart from that fateful evening when Madeleine disappeared.
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On Wednesday about half of the group moved after their meal from the table area to the bar area
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But do you agree that it is possible after their dinner for diners to move from the table to the bar area?
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The roofed thingy is not a building, it's just a construction shielding the patio of the Tapas Bar. And here how it looks inside:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LzvBljZy1xs/Uxt1AeMjgTI/AAAAAAAAH2k/SdbWsCpIEnY/s1600/Promo+17.jpg)
Just a roof over the tables. No place for separate kitchen and other stuff.
I don't owe you anything. Better get over it.
Martina, my dear, whilst searching for images for Faith as i promised, I found the absolute proof that you are wrong for all your shouting and belligerence in previous posts on this topic ... and that I am right
(http://i.imgur.com/toJIEAM.jpg?1)
Clearly illustrating the gap between the Tapas Restaurant to the left and the Tapas Bar to the right. They are two entirely seperate buildings.
Perhaps you have the good grace to apologise?
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Martina, my dear, whilst searching for images for Faith as i promised, I found the absolute proof that you are wrong for all your shouting and belligerence in previous posts on this topic ... and that I am right
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bw/img_0173_small.jpg
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bw/img_0173_small.jpg)
Please enlarge.
Clearly illustrating the gap between the Tapas Restaurant to the left and the Tapas Bar to the right. They are two entirely seperate buildings.
Perhaps you have the good grace to apologise?
To me it looks like a shelter next to the proper building, not a building in it's self?
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... They are two entirely seperate buildings ...
And what is the visibility, from inside the seperate Tapas Bar building, of the balcony?
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And what is the visibility, from inside the seperate Tapas Bar building, of the balcony?
I take it you mean from the tapas restaurant?
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And what is the visibility, from inside the seperate Tapas Bar building, of the balcony?
I looked from where I was eating in the tapas restaurant. I only popped in to the Tapas bar and didn't consciously look at 5A that I can remember. I was only interested in the Tapas groups view from the restaurant..
From photos on the Mccannfiles and Pamalam, I can tell you, however, that it wasn't at all good. Altogether different.
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To me it looks like a shelter next to the proper building, not a building in it's self?
It is a building, but it is very beach-like in its structure. Probably quite strong: George Crosland who is part owner with Garvey and David Symington, is a qualified architect. Everything looked very compact and well planned within the limited space. I was amazed how so much was fitted in to what appeared a small piece of land. He did a good job, planning that. No wasted space at all and very pleasant to look at . The whole complex was good looking.
It had that holiday air to it when inside and the plastic glazed windows that were, in fairness, very clear. I think they could be rolled up in warm weather, or removed, but I am not sure of that. When we were there it was quite cool, but both ends were fully open IIRC.
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I looked from where I was eating in the tapas restaurant. I only popped in to the Tapas bar and didn't consciously look at 5A that I can remember. I was only interested in the Tapas groups view from the restaurant..
From photos on the Mccannfiles and Pamalam, I can tell you, however, that it wasn't at all good. Altogether different.
I am asking because I wish to know how good the view was, and what the audibility was like, inside the seperate Tapas Bar building, in the period from about 23:05 to about 23:50 on May 2nd 2007
"After dinner we ventured into the enclosed bar area ..." (Source: "Madeleine" Page 60)
I highly recommend reading that book, it is honest, and gives important information.
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I am asking because I wish to know how good the view was, and what the audibility was like, inside the seperate Tapas Bar building, in the period from about 23:05 to about 23:50 on May 2nd 2007
"After dinner we ventured into the enclosed bar area ..." (Source: "Madeleine" Page 60)
I highly recommend reading that book, it is honest, and gives important information.
I cant help you. Pegasus, Sorry. I only had 3 nights in Pdl , so little more than 2 days before we set off for Porto by the back route initially.
[ off topic irrelevant ]
ETA. The Tapas bar is further away and I dont know, but would have thought that the wall sound penetration would have been worse. But the end nearest 5A had a wide opening that the sound would have travelled thru without hindrance. From memory, it had proper windows, which I guess opened, but I am no longer sure.
I am pretty confident that I remember the bar being along the wall backing on to the Restaurant, but even that I am not sure about.
My interest wasn't there. It was the view from the Restaurant that I was interested in ... and the layout of the garden area, which was amazing in its design.. So much in such a small space. I would guarentee that every one of you would be surprised just how small that garden felt. Very cozy
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@sadie: I was asking about the bar because that is where they were Wed night from after dinner until about 23:50, inside, where it was warmer, as you will confirm for yourself if you take the time to read the book which I recommended, I am surprised you haven't read it already.
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@sadie: I was asking about the bar because that is where they were Wed night from after dinner until about 23:50, inside, where it was warmer, as you will confirm for yourself if you take the time to read the book which I recommended, I am surprised you haven't read it already.
I have read it. I own a copy.
Where did you get the idea that I hadn't read it.?
And I know the reason you asked.
Pegasus, you may not be used to this, with a number of peeps on your side who blatently lie, but I endeavour to always tell the truth .... even if it is maybe uncomfortable to me at times.
I am in this to try and find Madeleine and the perp.
Additionally I am campassionate and humane and cannot bear all the deliberate falsehood, hatred and injustices against The Mccanns, a couple who are almost without doubt completely innocent of any crime and have lost their much loved daughter.
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I have read it. I own a copy.
Where did you get the idea that I hadn't read it.?
And I know the reason you asked.
Pegasus, you may not be used to this, with a number of peeps on your side who blatently lie, but I endeavour to always tell the truth .... even if it is maybe uncomfortable to me at times.
I am in this to try and find Madeleine and the perp.
Additionally I am campassionate and humane and cannot bear all the deliberate falsehood, hatred and injustices against The Mccanns, a couple who are almost without doubt completely innocent of any crime and have lost their much loved daughter.
Apologies I was guessing you hadn't read it and I guessed wrong.
The restaurant area has been I think accurately described as: "a canopied outdoor addition to the bar" (Page 52).
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Apologies I was guessing you hadn't read it and I guessed wrong.
The restaurant area has been I think accurately described as: "a canopied outdoor addition to the bar" (Page 52).
It is a bit more than that. Rather like a superior beach cafe. It is rustic and free standing although quite close to the Tapas Bar. I think it is a good sturdy building with additions that are temporary or adjustable.acording to the weather. A pleasant place.
I didn't examine the Tapas Bar but that seemed a proper building of a more conventional type. I think that almost certainly it could be securable. The bar and booze were in there so it had to be lockable, I should think.
The building would unlikely be double skinned as in the UK, but I cant swear to that. Maybe such detail could be gleaned from photos? But sorry, I haven't the energy atm
Nigh night.
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It is a bit more than that. Rather like a superior beach cafe. It is rustic and free standing although quite close to the Tapas Bar. I think it is a good sturdy building with additions that are temporary or adjustable.acording to the weather. A pleasant place.
I didn't examine the Tapas Bar but that seemed a proper building of a more conventional type. I think that almost certainly it could be securable. The bar and booze were in there so it had to be lockable, I should think.
The building would unlikely be double skinned as in the UK, but I cant swear to that. Maybe such detail could be gleaned from photos? But sorry, I haven't the energy atm
Nigh night.
Why the travelogue? The restaurant was a shelter next to the bar, with plastic windows to close out the cooler weather.
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Why the travelogue? The restaurant was a shelter next to the bar, with plastic windows to close out the cooler weather.
I was trying to give Pegasus a picture of the Tapas Restaurant and the Tapas Bar.
Why be rude?
BTW, have you been there?
I have.
The restaurant is a deliberately designed structure, which is sturdy and which is rather nice to sit in. It has a tree growing thru it, which is a nice touch. One feels outside and on holiday in it.
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Thank you for explaining the difference between the tapas bar and the tapas restaurant Sadie and introducing the new photograph.
This still was taken from a Sky News report by Martin Brunt and clearly shows the difficulties one might have trying to see through a plastic screen at night.
(http://i.imgur.com/CjQPxGg.jpg)
Martin Brunt sits at the same table the McCann occupied and points towards apt 5a.
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Thank you for explaining the difference between the tapas bar and the tapas restaurant Sadie and introducing the new photograph.
This still was taken from a Sky News report by Martin Brunt and clearly shows the dffcukties one might have trying to see through a plastic screen at night.
(http://i.imgur.com/CjQPxGg.jpg)
Martin Brunt sits at the same table the McCann occupied and points towards apt 5a.
That is a very blurred and rather unsatisfactory picture.
However, I see what you are saying and it illustrates what (I think it was Matt) was statiing in one of the statements. This was that the Tapas group could not see their patios clearly. NO LIGHTING TO ILLUMINATE THEM. He was generalizing and not talking about The Mccanns apartment per se.
The Mccann apartment was bathed in light from the adjacent across the road street lamp
More to the point is the fact that 5A is illuminated, but is NOT even in the picture
What date was that shot taken?
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Bathed in light is a somewhat exaggeration Sadie. The street lights in 2007 were a lot dimmer than they are today since the light fittings were replaced by better ones. The street light only reached halfway up the steps which led to the balcony and part of the balcony itself, someone intent upon entering the apartment could have easily reached it unseen by crouching down.
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Bathed in light is a somewhat exaggeration Sadie. The street lights in 2007 were a lot dimmer than they are today since the light fittings were replaced by better ones. The street light only reached halfway up the steps which led to the balcony and part of the balcony itself, someone intent upon entering the apartment could have easily reached it unseen by crouching down.
I agree they were not as strong as they are now, or so we are told.
I agree that only part of the steps were illuminated but , sorry, I do not agree with you that anyone could have gone over that patio without being bathed in light. Virtually all the pertinent parrt of the patio was bathed in light. It was illuminated.
Also with the light on in the lounge area, the moment any one had opened that patio door and entered he had to pull back the curtain. When he opened the curtain a shaft of light would have played on the railings. That would have been very obvious. A give away.
BTW, there was sufficient light in the lounge for Matt to spend a short while reading the titles of some books.
The one place that no-one has thought of for possible entrance is the patio doors to Kate and Gerrys bedroom. I dont think they were illuminated, but I would need to enlarge G,E. images very greatly to check.
Your mate Amaral, however, stated clearly that no intruder would dare go in by the main patio doors, as they were overlooked by the Tapas group at only about 50 metres... and illuminated. Are you challenging him?
Seems tho, that he never even thought of Kate and Gerrys bedroom patio doors as being a way in. No finger prints checked there, as far as I am aware.
If that is the case, then it all seems very slap happy and I have to scorn his sleuthing skills. It would almost appear that he didn't want to know, dont you think?
I think there is little doubt that the front door was used both in and out. So someone had access to the keys?
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I agree they were not as strong as they are now, or so we are told.
I agree that only part of the steps were illuminated but , sorry, I do not agree with you that anyone could have gone over that patio without being bathed in light. Virtually all the pertinent parrt of the patio was bathed in light. It was illuminated.
Also with the light on in the lounge area, the moment any one had opened that patio door and entered he had to pull back the curtain. When he opened the curtain a shaft of light would have played on the railings. That would have been very obvious. A give away.
BTW, there was sufficient light in the lounge for Matt to spend a short while reading the titles of some books.
The one place that no-one has thought of for possible entrance is the patio doors to Kate and Gerrys bedroom. I dont think they were illuminated, but I would need to enlarge G,E. images very greatly to check.
Your mate Amaral, however, stated clearly that no intruder would dare go in by the main patio doors, as they were overlooked by the Tapas group at only about 50 metres... and illuminated. Are you challenging him?
Seems tho, that he never even thought of the bedroom patio doors as being a way in. No finger prints checked there as far as I am aware.
If that is the case, then it all seems very slap happy and I have to scorn his sleuthing skills. It would almost appear that he didn't want to know, dont you think?
I think there is little doubt that the front door was used both in and out. So someone had access to the keys?
SUPPOSITION, SUPPOSITION AND YET MORE SUPPOSITION.
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I agree they were not as strong as they are now, or so we are told.
I agree that only part of the steps were illuminated but , sorry, I do not agree with you that anyone could have gone over that patio without being bathed in light. Virtually all the pertinent parrt of the patio was bathed in light. It was illuminated.
Also with the light on in the lounge area, the moment any one had opened that patio door and entered he had to pull back the curtain. When he opened the curtain a shaft of light would have played on the railings. That would have been very obvious. A give away.
BTW, there was sufficient light in the lounge for Matt to spend a short while reading the titles of some books.
The one place that no-one has thought of for possible entrance is the patio doors to Kate and Gerrys bedroom. I dont think they were illuminated, but I would need to enlarge G,E. images very greatly to check.
Your mate Amaral, however, stated clearly that no intruder would dare go in by the main patio doors, as they were overlooked by the Tapas group at only about 50 metres... and illuminated. Are you challenging him?
Seems tho, that he never even thought of the bedroom patio doors as being a way in. No finger prints checked there as far as I am aware.
If that is the case, then it all seems very slap happy and I have to scorn his sleuthing skills. It would almost appear that he didn't want to know, dont you think?
I think there is little doubt that the front door was used both in and out. So someone had access to the keys?
Don't you know Kate had her back to the apartment? That means it was impossible for her to see even though she was so concerned at the table 8-)(--)
Gerry had his back to it aswell - are they taking the piss 8-)(--)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/07/article-1042099-022FCA3500000578-590_468x324.jpg)
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SUPPOSITION, SUPPOSITION AND YET MORE SUPPOSITION.
Oh Yeah ! Can you elucidate?
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Don't you know Kate had her back to the apartment? That means it was impossible for her to see even though she was so concerned at the table 8-)(--)
Gerry had his back to it aswell - are they taking the piss 8-)(--)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/07/article-1042099-022FCA3500000578-590_468x324.jpg)
We know that. Old stuff, Maybe they took it in turns to move around the table each night. We dont know.
...... but they were a group of friends who would look out for each other. Any changes and they would immediately alert Kate and Gerry ... or any of the others in the group as necessary
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We know that. Old stuff, Maybe they took it in turns to move around the table each night. We dont know.
...... but they were a group of friends who would look out for each other. Any changes and they would immediately alert Kate and Gerry ... or any of the others in the group as necessary
No chance of seeing anybody entering so your point about being able to see or not is irrelevant. The fact is they couldn't see nothing and didn't want to see! Being so concerned at the table (brown stain cleaning that day!) I would at least face the apartment. So many anomalies in this case. A good detective would have a field day.
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No chance of seeing anybody entering so your point about being able to see or not is irrelevant. The fact is they couldn't see nothing and didn't want to see! Being so concerned at the table (brown stain cleaning that day!) I would at least face the apartment. So many anomalies in this case. A good detective would have a field day.
Are you making accusations? Your double negative confuses
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I agree they were not as strong as they are now, or so we are told.
So, are they or aren't they?
If they're brighter now than in 2007, which you agree is possible, your comments about how good the lighting was when you visited is irrelevant.
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Are you making accusations? Your double negative confuses
I think everything is self-explanatory.
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A point of note. The street lights were changed for much brighter lanterns after Madeleine disappeared. I assume the idea was to increase security but it was more a case of locking the stable door after the horse had bolted.
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A point of note. The street lights were changed for much brighter lanterns after Madeleine disappeared. I assume the idea was to increase security but it was more a case of locking the stable door after the horse had bolted.
Don't follow that logic at all.
Too late for Madeleine, yes.
But perhaps not for some other child.
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Don't follow that logic at all.
Too late for Madeleine, yes.
But perhaps not for some other child.
Yes, sadly too late for Madeleine.