UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Silkywhiskers on May 31, 2014, 01:10:31 AM
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The ILOR's weren't about Portugese suspects.
The ILOR's were sent by the CPS - the British CPS who will NEVER have any interest in crimes committed by Portugese nationals.
The CPS deal with prosecutions against British Subjects only.
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The ILOR's weren't about Portugese suspects.
The ILOR's were sent by the CPS - the British CPS who will NEVER have any interest in crimes committed by Portugese nationals.
The CPS deal with prosecutions against British Subjects only.
Who said they were Portuguese? Many citizens in Portugal have dual nationality. Why have the Met gone to Portugal to question people who are in the UK right now?
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Who said they were Portuguese? Many citizens in Portugal have dual nationality. Why have the Met gone to Portugal to question people who are in the UK right now?
Who exactly have they gone to question in your opinion?
I thought they'd gone to dig up PDL looking for Madeleine's body outside 5a which means that she died, which in turn means the "abduction" "burglar" story is a load of bs.
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The ILOR's weren't about Portugese suspects.
The ILOR's were sent by the CPS - the British CPS who will NEVER have any interest in crimes committed by Portugese nationals.
The CPS deal with prosecutions against British Subjects only.
Mutual legal assistance
Mutual legal assistance (MLA) is the formal way in which countries request and provide evidence located in one country to assist in criminal investigations or proceedings in another country.
In England, Wales or Northern Ireland, MLA requests are made via an LOR (also known as an international letter of request (ILOR)). The purpose of an LOR is to ask the requested state to obtain specific, identifiable evidence.
An LOR outlines the case, the evidence requested and any legislation that should be adhered to in order to ensure that the evidence is gathered in a way that will be admissible in the requesting state’s proceedings.
Responsibility for drafting and issuing an LOR rests with the relevant prosecution authority. In the UK this is the CPS.
MLA can be a resource intensive and time-consuming process, placing considerable burdens on the requested state. It should, therefore, be used only where the evidence is necessary and expected to add value. It must not be used if material can be obtained through other means, eg, where material is already in the public domain.
Letter of request
Evidence can be requested both before and after a person is charged with an offence. During the investigation phase, an LOR can be issued even prior to any suspect being arrested.
Types of assistance that can be provided under an LOR include a request:
to take witness statements
to search and/or seize property
to formally interview suspects
for banking evidence
for telecommunications data
to allow UK personnel to travel to the overseas state in question in order to conduct enquiries
to conduct covert deployments.
http://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/
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An LOR outlines the case, the evidence requested and any legislation that should be adhered to in order to ensure that the evidence is gathered in a way that will be admissible in the requesting state’s proceedings.
That is the key phrase. Information is needed for a UK prosecution.
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That is the key phrase. Information is needed for a UK prosecution.
Well, yes, the UK has an open police investigation. Why would the nationality of the persons of interest be relevant in terms of an ILOR? They wouldn't need it to question people in their own jurisdiction, but would if they were overseas.
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Well, yes, the UK has an open police investigation. Why would the nationality of the persons of interest be relevant in terms of an ILOR? They wouldn't need it to question people in their own jurisdiction, but would if they were overseas.
An open police investigation with no powers.
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Well, yes, the UK has an open police investigation. Why would the nationality of the persons of interest be relevant in terms of an ILOR? They wouldn't need it to question people in their own jurisdiction, but would if they were overseas.
It is not normally within the Juristiction of one country to prosecute a citizen of another country for crimes committed in another country (war crimes and other such offences excepted).
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It is not normally within the Juristiction of one country to prosecute a citizen of another country for crimes committed in another country (war crimes and other such offences excepted).
The point that SW was making was that the Met wouldn't be interested in a Portuguese offender and that therefore the 8 POIs that they'd like to interview were necessarily the Tapas gang. If that's the case, why would they have to send an ILOR to Portugal? That doesn't make sense to me.
At this stage, they're investigating an undetermined crime against a British national committed by person(s) unknown. If (hopefully when) the case is resolved, then the issue of jurisdiction would come into play for a prosecution. But they're not at that stage yet.
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The point that SW was making was that the Met wouldn't be interested in a Portuguese offender and that therefore the 8 POIs that they'd like to interview were necessarily the Tapas gang. If that's the case, why would they have to send an ILOR to Portugal? That doesn't make sense to me.
At this stage, they're investigating an undetermined crime against a British national committed by person(s) unknown. If (hopefully when) the case is resolved, then the issue of jurisdiction would come into play for a prosecution. But they're not at that stage yet.
If they were PT suspects for a crime committed in PT, I think the PT would have told SY to sling their hooks. The ILORs are needed for evidence in PT and will be for PT witnesses.
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If they were PT suspects for a crime committed in PT, I think the PT would have told SY to sling their hooks. The ILORs are needed for evidence in PT and will for PT witnesses.
Sorry, I don't understand your post.
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Sorry, I don't understand your post.
Spelling mistake.
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Mutual legal assistance
Mutual legal assistance (MLA) is the formal way in which countries request and provide evidence located in one country to assist in criminal investigations or proceedings in another country.
In England, Wales or Northern Ireland, MLA requests are made via an LOR (also known as an international letter of request (ILOR)). The purpose of an LOR is to ask the requested state to obtain specific, identifiable evidence.
An LOR outlines the case, the evidence requested and any legislation that should be adhered to in order to ensure that the evidence is gathered in a way that will be admissible in the requesting state’s proceedings.
Responsibility for drafting and issuing an LOR rests with the relevant prosecution authority. In the UK this is the CPS.
MLA can be a resource intensive and time-consuming process, placing considerable burdens on the requested state. It should, therefore, be used only where the evidence is necessary and expected to add value. It must not be used if material can be obtained through other means, eg, where material is already in the public domain.
Letter of request
Evidence can be requested both before and after a person is charged with an offence. During the investigation phase, an LOR can be issued even prior to any suspect being arrested.
Types of assistance that can be provided under an LOR include a request:
to take witness statements
to search and/or seize property
to formally interview suspects
for banking evidence
for telecommunications data
to allow UK personnel to travel to the overseas state in question in order to conduct enquiries
to conduct covert deployments.
http://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/
Don't you love it when Team McCann prove themselves wrong?
Thanks for posting.
For the claim the dig is just another fishing expedition, we have this -
MLA can be a resource intensive and time-consuming process, placing considerable burdens on the requested state. It should, therefore, be used only where the evidence is necessary and expected to add value.
Confirmation that the dig in PDL is "expected to add value".
Also confirmation that the CPS is ONLY involved when the POI is British.
In the UK this is the CPS.
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The ILOR's weren't about Portugese suspects.
The ILOR's were sent by the CPS - the British CPS who will NEVER have any interest in crimes committed by Portugese nationals.
The CPS deal with prosecutions against British Subjects only.
But a clue is that UK police do not issue ILORs relating to any need to interview UK citizens who are based and currently living in the UK. In case you hadn't noticed they just get in a car, drive to the person's place of work or home and ask them for an interview. Very simple indeed.
Having done that with the McCanns and other witnesses they are now looking at the witnesses who are actually abroad.
And as for your references to prosecutions and the CPS, what has that got to do with the price of cheese? The role of the CPS has not been in preparing any specific prosecution in this case so far (and almost certainly never). Have you not kept up with what their actual role has been? Dear me and you claim those supporting the McCanns (you used the rather stupid term "Team McCann" to describe posters I believe) have dropped themselves in it. I am afraid 'tis you who looks rather foolish to those who have a decent grasp of law and might I say even a basic grasp of logic.
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But a clue is that UK police do not issue ILORs relating to any need to interview UK citizens who are based and currently living in the UK.
But a clue is that UK police do not issue ILORs relating to any need to interview UK citizens who are based and currently living in the UK.
I can think of at least one UK person (not currently living in the uk) who might be a person of interest.
But not involved in Madeleine's abduction ...
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But a clue is that UK police do not issue ILORs relating to any need to interview UK citizens who are based and currently living in the UK.
I can think of at least one UK person (not currently living in the uk) who might be a person of interest.
But not involved in Madeleine's abduction ...
I can think of a number of people whose residence is not the UK currently who may be persons of interest and may indeed have been involved in the abduction...
Such speculation is, however, a complete waste of time and effort.
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But a clue is that UK police do not issue ILORs relating to any need to interview UK citizens who are based and currently living in the UK. In case you hadn't noticed they just get in a car, drive to the person's place of work or home and ask them for an interview. Very simple indeed.
Having done that with the McCanns and other witnesses they are now looking at the witnesses who are actually abroad.
And as for your references to prosecutions and the CPS, what has that got to do with the price of cheese? The role of the CPS has not been in preparing any specific prosecution in this case so far (and almost certainly never). Have you not kept up with what their actual role has been? Dear me and you claim those supporting the McCanns (you used the rather stupid term "Team McCann" to describe posters I believe) have dropped themselves in it. I am afraid 'tis you who looks rather foolish to those who have a decent grasp of law and might I say even a basic grasp of logic.
Great theory, but the ILORs are not requesting interviews are they?
They are requesting the digs.
The CPS HAS NO ROLE IN THE CRIMINAL ACTIONS OF NON BRITISH SUBJECTS.
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Great theory, but the ILORs are not requesting interviews are they?
They are requesting the digs.
The CPS HAS NO ROLE IN THE CRIMINAL ACTIONS OF NON BRITISH SUBJECTS.
Nor has anyone suggested that the suspects are necessarily non-british, nor has the CPS been necessarily involved in any attempt to deal with criminal actions by non-British subjects. You really should stop guessing as to what the CPS involvement is. For those who have been paying full attention to what information has been available it is perfectly clear that their involvement related only to part of the activity of the OG team in Portugal.
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Great theory, but the ILORs are not requesting interviews are they?
They are requesting the digs.
The CPS HAS NO ROLE IN THE CRIMINAL ACTIONS OF NON BRITISH SUBJECTS.
So, 273 ILORs for 273 digs - is that what you are saying?
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With regard to Sillywhiskers' comments about the ILORs, I have just checked and such letters of request can be used when interviews of people are required. What makes you believe that in this case they are not related to such possible interviews with people domiciled in Portugal? Do you actually have anything on which to base that belief or is it simply a guess/stab in the dark?
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Give me strength and follow closely.
The CPS is the Crown Prosecution Service.
Their job is to be the link between the police and the judiciary.
The judiciary of the UK.
With me so far?
The police develop a case against person X and Y. (or in this case, 8 of them).
They then take the evidence they have to the CPS and ask for advice to CHARGE THE SUSPECTS and therefore LINK to the judiciary.
The CPS DO NOT and HAVE NEVER had the function of prosecuting non-British subjects in non-British courts, or even British subjects in non-British courts....their responsibility is ONLY prosecuting within the British Legal System.
In this case, IF the POI's are Portugese and the crime is committed in Portugal, the CPS can have no other authority but advising the Portugese of said crimes.
The CPS can ONLY prosecute WITHIN BRITAIN.
If the POI's were not British, then SY would be working with the Portugese equivalent of the CPS....not the British!
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Give me strength and follow closely.
The CPS is the Crown Prosecution Service.
Their job is to be the link between the police and the judiciary.
The judiciary of the UK.
With me so far?
The police develop a case against person X and Y. (or in this case, 8 of them).
They then take the evidence they have to the CPS and ask for advice to CHARGE THE SUSPECTS and therefore LINK to the judiciary.
The CPS DO NOT and HAVE NEVER had the function of prosecuting non-British subjects in non-British courts, or even British subjects in non-British courts....their responsibility is ONLY prosecuting within the British Legal System.
In this case, IF the POI's are Portugese and the crime is committed in Portugal, the CPS can have no other authority but advising the Portugese of said crimes.
The CPS can ONLY prosecute WITHIN BRITAIN.
If the POI's were not British, then SY would be working with the Portugese equivalent of the CPS....not the British!
How, when the Portuguese authorities want any requests from the UK police to pass through the ILOR process, for which the CPS is responsible?
The other problem with your assertion is that the investigation is not at the stage of charging anyone. Until the culprit has been identified, the jurisdiction for prosecution remains unknown.
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Give me strength and follow closely.
The CPS is the Crown Prosecution Service.
Their job is to be the link between the police and the judiciary.
The judiciary of the UK.
With me so far?
The police develop a case against person X and Y. (or in this case, 8 of them).
They then take the evidence they have to the CPS and ask for advice to CHARGE THE SUSPECTS and therefore LINK to the judiciary.
The CPS DO NOT and HAVE NEVER had the function of prosecuting non-British subjects in non-British courts, or even British subjects in non-British courts....their responsibility is ONLY prosecuting within the British Legal System.
In this case, IF the POI's are Portugese and the crime is committed in Portugal, the CPS can have no other authority but advising the Portugese of said crimes.
The CPS can ONLY prosecute WITHIN BRITAIN.
If the POI's were not British, then SY would be working with the Portugese equivalent of the CPS....not the British!
Most of what you post is wrong and this point is no exception. CPS responsible for ILORs..thats it...that's why they are involved
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That is the key phrase. Information is needed for a UK prosecution.
no..for a uk investigation
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Lovely Jubbly! straight into the nuts and bolts ignoring the higher level stuff.
Rule number one when administering any contract document or specifications: make sure you understand the purpose and all the definitions.
8(>((
Aim
This guidance is produced:
To provide practical advice on obtaining and using evidence and information from other countries;
To set out the legal framework in relation to these matters;
To show the distinction between Mutual Legal Assistance and other forms of co-operation;
To clarify the roles and responsibilities of organisations working within this field;
To give guidance to prosecutors on drafting a letter of request.
meanwhile back in the swarf.
So to suggest that the CPS involvement is because the suspects are UK citizens is bonkers
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Hardly. One should look at the wider interpretation and implications of the following:
To provide practical advice on obtaining and using evidence and information from other countries;
It would be foolish to attempt to second guess what is going on.
We know two things for sure as I said on another thread.
DCI Redwood believes Tannerman was almost certainly not the abductor.
DCI Redwood has authority to have holes dug in PdL.
We can surmise the digging of holes was the first ILOR but even that ain't worth betting on.
But this is exactly what whiskas is doing...I say bonkers you say foolish
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Can you all show me a case where the British CPS involved itself in charging (under British law) a criminal who was not British, nor residing in Britain, nor committing said crime in Britain?
Thanks.
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Can you all show me a case where the British CPS involved itself in charging (under British law) a criminal who was not British, nor residing in Britain, nor committing said crime in Britain?
Thanks.
Still waiting Team McCann!!!!!
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Still waiting Team McCann!!!!!
The British CPS has not formally been given the identity of any individual to be charged. A non-Brit would either be charged in their own country or Portugal, depending on the conditions under the Hague Service Convention.
But we haven't reached that stage yet, so your question is not really relevant.
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The British CPS has not formally been given the identity of any individual to be charged. A non-Brit would either be charged in their own country or Portugal, depending on the conditions under the Hague Service Convention.
But we haven't reached that stage yet, so your question is not really relevant.
What a load of rubbish.
The CPS wrote the ILOR's based on the evidence presented to them by Operation Grange.
Evidence including POI's, otherwise the CPS would have no involvement yet, at all.
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What a load of rubbish.
The CPS wrote the ILOR's based on the evidence presented to them by Operation Grange.
Evidence including POI's, otherwise the CPS would have no involvement yet, at all.
The CPS had to write ILOR's to access bank accounts and phone records, etc, etc, as well as requesting the right for the Met to interview certain persons of interest, to expand the level of knowledge & evidence. Before Eurojust, this procedure would have taken even longer. I'm not quite sure why you are so focused on the "prosecution" issue & nothing else.
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The CPS had to write ILOR's to access bank accounts and phone records, etc, etc, as well as requesting the right for the Met to interview certain persons of interest, to expand the level of knowledge & evidence. Before Eurojust, this procedure would have taken even longer. I'm not quite sure why you are so focused on the "prosecution" issue & nothing else.
Whose bank accounts and phone records?
What persons of interest?
We know for a fact none have been interviewed, and most of the ILORs appear to be about a dig.
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The only reason the CPS is involved in this case is because the victim is a British citizen.
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The only reason the CPS is involved in this case is because the victim is a British citizen.
Well, yes. Which is also the only reason the met are involved.
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Can you all show me a case where the British CPS involved itself in charging (under British law) a criminal who was not British, nor residing in Britain, nor committing said crime in Britain?
Thanks.
None that I'm aware of *, but I don't see the point of your question, unless you assume that ILORs are only issued in order to prosecute someone.
Types of assistance that can be provided under an LOR include a request:
to take witness statements
to search and/or seize property
to formally interview suspects
for banking evidence
for telecommunications data
to allow UK personnel to travel to the overseas state in question in order to conduct enquiries
to conduct covert deployments.
ILORs are issued by the CPS.
When the investigation has advanced to a stage that someone is about to be charged, the issue of jurisdiction for prosecution will presumably be determined.
*ETA Although there appears to be provision for it in certain circumstances.
E.g.
Universal jurisdiction (i.e. the state will be able to prosecute regardless of the nationality of the offender, the victim, and where the offence was committed, e.g. torture).
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/jurisdiction/
ETA 2: Actually, it seems that it isn't that clear-cut.
Eurojusts role is to stimulate and facilitate co-operation in the investigation of serious cross-border crime, particularly organised crime. As such it deals with large and complex cross-border cases, usually involving more than two EU Member States. In such cases, where prosecutors cannot reach an agreement, they may refer the case to Eurojust, which can be used as a final arbiter.
Also:
Annex A - Eurojust Guidelines, Annual Report 2003, Making the Decision - "Which Jurisdiction Should Prosecute?"
(from above link).
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Taken from Sussex Police website Interpol Policy
3 Evidence and International Letters of Request (ILOR)
3.1 Many foreign countries, particularly in mainland Europe, use the Napoleonic code of justice that restricts police and law enforcement agencies powers of investigation. In general terms, police carry out the initial steps in an investigation and then hand the case over to an examining magistrate or prosecutor.
3.2 The examining magistrate then takes charge of the investigation and directs police as to how they are to conduct it on their behalf. The examining magistrate also has powers to:
(1) Summons accused / suspected persons and witnesses to appear before him for interview.
(2) Order the: (a) Search of premises, (b) Seizure of Evidence, (c) Examine bank accounts.
3.3 An ILOR, also known as a Commission Rogatoire (Com. Rog.), is a written request given by a judicial authority to carry out a procedural action necessary in criminal proceedings.
3.4 An ILOR is a judicial document and as such cannot be issued by Police. It is sent through official channels, i.e. from one Ministry of Justice to another.
The UK Ministry of Justice has been in operation since 2007 www.justice.gov.uk The official channel for receipt and transmission of ILORs is the UK Central Authority for Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, which is located in the Judicial Co-operation Unit at the Home Office.
3.5 Although an ILOR is issued for the purpose of gathering evidence to present at a criminal trial, it can be issued whilst the trial is in progress if the request is for supplementary information necessary for the continuation of the proceedings.
3.6 ILOR's are obtained through the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and their advice should be sought in the first instance when requesting evidence from persons abroad.
3.7 For complete advice in relation to Obtaining assistance overseas, please read the Mutual Legal Assistance Guidelines, found at http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operational-policing/mutual-legal-assistance/
Does that clarify things for you, Silky Whiskers?
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Taken from Sussex Police website Interpol Policy
3 Evidence and International Letters of Request (ILOR)
3.1 Many foreign countries, particularly in mainland Europe, use the Napoleonic code of justice that restricts police and law enforcement agencies powers of investigation. In general terms, police carry out the initial steps in an investigation and then hand the case over to an examining magistrate or prosecutor.
3.2 The examining magistrate then takes charge of the investigation and directs police as to how they are to conduct it on their behalf. The examining magistrate also has powers to:
(1) Summons accused / suspected persons and witnesses to appear before him for interview.
(2) Order the: (a) Search of premises, (b) Seizure of Evidence, (c) Examine bank accounts.
3.3 An ILOR, also known as a Commission Rogatoire (Com. Rog.), is a written request given by a judicial authority to carry out a procedural action necessary in criminal proceedings.
3.4 An ILOR is a judicial document and as such cannot be issued by Police. It is sent through official channels, i.e. from one Ministry of Justice to another.
The UK Ministry of Justice has been in operation since 2007 www.justice.gov.uk The official channel for receipt and transmission of ILORs is the UK Central Authority for Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, which is located in the Judicial Co-operation Unit at the Home Office.
3.5 Although an ILOR is issued for the purpose of gathering evidence to present at a criminal trial, it can be issued whilst the trial is in progress if the request is for supplementary information necessary for the continuation of the proceedings.
3.6 ILOR's are obtained through the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and their advice should be sought in the first instance when requesting evidence from persons abroad.
3.7 For complete advice in relation to Obtaining assistance overseas, please read the Mutual Legal Assistance Guidelines, found at http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operational-policing/mutual-legal-assistance/
Does that clarify things for you, Silky Whiskers?
Do you see that?
They hand THE CASE over to the CPS for the appropriate paperwork.
The CPS is the link between the police and the judiciary, and the CPS have zero involvement until THE CASE is finalised and presented to them by LE for prosecution.
The CPS does not INVESTIGATE themselves. They instruct police, AFTER police have made a case.
Do you understand that?
The CPS has zero role to play in an investigation, they ONLY become involved when LE feel THE CASE is ready for prosecution.
In other words, for the exceedingly stupid, LE already have A CASE which they have presented to the BRITISH CPS who then started telling the British police what was required from a legal standpoint, and they asked for this assistance via ILOR's.
None of which has EVER meant that the CPS are Sherlock Holmes OR able to prosecute foreign individuals for crimes committed in foreign lands.
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I give up!!
It is clear only the CPS can issue an ILOR. Where, in the instructions above, does it say that the case has to be ready for prosecution? There is another country with another parallel investigation and their own Justice Dept/AG involved here and NO DECISION about which country is going to prosecute anybody has been reached yet. Grrrrrrrr.
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Yes, do give up.
The only reason the British CPS are involved is because it the charges are expected to be laid IN BRITAIN.
The only reason the charges would be laid in Britain is if the suspects are BRITISH.
What do you not understand?
No. The CPS are involved because the Met have been asked to investigate the case by the UK Government but the Met do not have the authority to request evidence or interviews from Portuguese residents without an ILOR.
You have to build a case before you can present it.
Is Smithman British?
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No. The CPS are involved because the Met have been asked to investigate the case by the UK Government but the Met do not have the authority to request evidence or interviews from Portuguese residents without an ILOR.
You have to build a case before you can present it.
Is Smithman British?
You do know that the British and Portugese have been working together for years now, don't you?
All you need to do is look at the photographs.
British and Portugese police, all in there together.
We know for a fact that NO ONE has been interviewed and the ILOR's seem to be exclusively about this dig.
So WHY do the British have to wait around for information from Portugal, that they already have?
You are also forgetting the Leics police, who were there in the early days and have a LOT of information that has never been released to the public.
And please tell me yet again - when was the last time the CPS involved itself in a non British crime perpetrated on Non British soil by Non British subjects?
Come on, you insist that they are doing just that so where's the precedent?
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I
You do know that the British and Portugese have been working together for years now, don't you?
All you need to do is look at the photographs.
British and Portugese police, all in there together.
We know for a fact that NO ONE has been interviewed and the ILOR's seem to be exclusively about this dig.
So WHY do the British have to wait around for information from Portugal, that they already have?
You are also forgetting the Leics police, who were there in the early days and have a LOT of information that has never been released to the public.
And please tell me yet again - when was the last time the CPS involved itself in a non British crime perpetrated on Non British soil by Non British subjects?
Come on, you insist that they are doing just that so where's the precedent?
It is a British crime because the victim is British.
I am sorry if you cannot grasp from official police instructions why the CPS are involved yet you understand why the Met are involved.
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I
It is a British crime because the victim is British.
I am sorry if you cannot grasp from official police instructions why the CPS are involved yet you understand why the Met are involved.
So the next time you are mugged in Magaluf, call in SY and the CPS?
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I
It is a British crime because the victim is British.
I am sorry if you cannot grasp from official police instructions why the CPS are involved yet you understand why the Met are involved.
What a load of crap.
Neil Entwhistle was British, the Brit police EXTRADITED him back to where he committed his crime.
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Ok, WHO IS THE INVESTIGATING AUTHORITY IN THIS STORY?
British millionaire jeweller Andrew Bush shot dead at Spanish mansion as police hunt model ex-girlfriend
Apr 07, 2014 10:55 By Steve Robson
Andrew Bush, 48, was found shot twice in the head at his estate on the Costa del Sol on Saturday morning
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Police are hunting the ex-lover of a British millionaire gold dealer who was assassinated at his Spanish mansion.
Andrew Bush, 48, was shot twice in the head on Saturday morning at his estate in the Costa del Sol.
Reports in the resort of Estepona suggest police believe he was killed by a gunman who lay in wait for him and his current lover.
His girlfriend told police that they were ambushed by an ex-girlfriend and an accomplice.
Spanish police are now thought to be hunting for model Mayka Kukocova, but they have not confirmed that she is wanted in connection with the murder.
SolarpixModel Mayka Marica Kukucuva is believed to be wanted for questioning by Spanish police
An Audi believed to have been used by the killer was taken away by police on Saturday along with a Porsche and Ferrari thought to be owned by the dead man.
Andrew's British girlfriend, who has not been named, has apparently told investigators his ex opened the door to them as they returned from a week away.
She called 999 after allegedly being barred entry and seeing the woman speed off in one of Mr Bush's luxury cars before discovering she didn't have keys to get back in.
Police and fire officers climbed over the front of the building where they found his body and the gun lying next to him.
A source close to the investigation said: "It is being treated as murder and police are hunting the dead man's ex on suspicion of committing this crime.
"They are probing the possibility she may have let herself into the property while the occupant was away and waited for several days for him to return."
Andy had been living in Spain but still owns shops in Bristol including Andrew Davids jewellers.
His store at the Galleries Bristol shopping centre was shut today with a sign saying it has been closed until tomorrow.
Getty Images / John HarperEstepona, Costa del Sol, Spain
A fellow jeweller in the shopping centre said he had been told of the news via email but was too upset to talk.
Another woman who runs a shop opposite said: ''I used to see him around. He was a really nice guy - I can't believe what has happened."
A neighbour, who asked not to be named, added: "All we know is that she's in her early twenties and comes from somewhere in eastern Europe.
"From what I've heard the police are treating it as a terrible act of jealousy.
"I can't begin to imagine what the girlfriend must be feeling right now. She could so easily have been killed as well."
Another added: "Apart from the noise he made with his cars early in the morning, he was a good neighbour who never gave us any cause for concern.
"He kept himself to himself and wasn't around all the time. I've heard he had business interests all over the world although I wasn't sure exactly what he did.
"The only woman I ever saw at the property was a pretty young blonde woman who was British like him.
"She was his current girlfriend. She must have been in her mid to late twenties.
"He kept a boat in the grounds of the house and he always drove nice cars. He had a Hummer which he had resprayed and I've also seen him in a Porsche and a Ferrari."
The Spanish owners of the villa, called Mar Antika, arrived on Saturday to let police seal off the site and a sister of the man is believed to be on her way to Spain.
The villa lies in a quiet residential street in an area called Cancelada between San Pedro and Estepona.
It is a two-minute walk from the beach in one direction and a dual-carriageway known as the New Golden Mile in another.
A National Police spokesman confirmed an investigation was underway after a British man was found dead at a property in Cancelada near Estepona but said he was not authorised to give out any more information.
A spokesman for the local emergency services said: "We received a call at 2.10am on Saturday morning from the partner of the dead man because she could not gain access to the property.
"Firefighters managed to get in and found the man lying dead inside with a gunshot wound to his head. Police are now investigating."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/andrew-bush-murder-british-millionaire-3381077#ixzz33c9nI8tX
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Why aren't the CPS flying around ILOR's in THIS case?
Anyone?
Could it be because they have NO JURISDICTION?
Quick~~~ send SY to Spain right now!!!! A crime against a Briton has been perpetrated, with ONLY the local plod to investigate!!!!
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1. He was a Spanish resident, not a holidaymaker.
2. I understand the suspect has been apprehended, so there is no relevance to your post.
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1. He was a Spanish resident, not a holidaymaker.
2. I understand the suspect has been apprehended, so there is no relevance to your post.
Actually many ex pats never register residency in Spain and Portugal any more so the resident versus holidaymaker argument no longer applies. I think it should also be borne in mind that SY have no authority in Portugal and are only operating through the goodwill extended to them by the Portuguese Ministry.
If suspects are at some point identified, it will be a matter of agreement as to who prosecutes them but the Portuguese have first dibs since the crime occurred on their soil.
The fact that Madeleine, as a minor, is a Ward of an English Court also carries some weight.
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Crown v Cheong. 2006.
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I believe the CPS played a role in the case of the murdered in Kenya British woman Julie Ward
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I believe the CPS played a role in the case of the murdered in Kenya British woman Julie Ward
What role did the CPS play in the Julie Ward case ?
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What role did the CPS play in the Julie Ward case ?
I'm not sure if it ever got to that stage actually but the intention was certainly there:
Mr Ward added: “I am becoming very impatient because this person seen armed with a rifle in my daughter's vehicle could hold vital information
into her death and he can be traced.
“I have no problems with the officers from Lincolnshire Police who have been working on the ground, they have done an excellent job, but I am concerned about what is going on from above to cause such delays.
“I fear the situation is becoming political and that perhaps police officials have lost sight of the entire reason for this review - and that is to solve my daughter's murder.”
Once the IPCC receives the report, it will need to reach its own conclusions before deciding whether any information should be forwarded to the Crown Prosecution Service."
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I'm not sure if it ever got to that stage actually but the intention was certainly there:
Mr Ward added: “I am becoming very impatient because this person seen armed with a rifle in my daughter's vehicle could hold vital information
into her death and he can be traced.
“I have no problems with the officers from Lincolnshire Police who have been working on the ground, they have done an excellent job, but I am concerned about what is going on from above to cause such delays.
“I fear the situation is becoming political and that perhaps police officials have lost sight of the entire reason for this review - and that is to solve my daughter's murder.”
Once the IPCC receives the report, it will need to reach its own conclusions before deciding whether any information should be forwarded to the Crown Prosecution Service."
Mr Ward had accused the Metropolitan police of 'colluding' in the cover-up of his daughter's murder
That was why another enquiry, by Lincolnshire police was set up , and why the Police Complaints Commission were involved
The involvement of the Crown Prosecution Service would have been necessary only if the Police Complaints Commission came to the conclusion that there had been wrong-doing by Metropolitan police officers
It was the Metropolitan police, and their original report that was under scrutiny here
Why did you bring this case up when it has no bearing on the case we are currently discussing ?
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Mr Ward had accused the Metropolitan police of 'colluding' in the cover-up of his daughter's murder
That was why another enquiry, by Lincolnshire police was set up , and why the Police Complaints Commission were involved
The involvement of the Crown Prosecution Service would have been necessary only if the Police Complaints Commission came to the conclusion that there had been wrong-doing by Metropolitan police officers
It was the Metropolitan police, and their original report that was under scrutiny here
Why did you bring this case up when it has no bearing on the case we are currently discussing ?
Silkywhiskars: "I am still waiting for an example of CPS involving themselves in a foreign crime - there is none"
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Silkywhiskars: "I am still waiting for an example of CPS involving themselves in a foreign crime - there is none"
You brought up a case that had no bearing on the discussion at hand, and presented it as if it did
You owe the forum an apology for giving misleading information
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You brought up a case that had no bearing on the discussion at hand, and presented it as if it did
You owe the forum an apology for giving misleading information
I apologise to the forum for giving misleading information.
Would you like me to write it 100 times, Miss?
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I'm still waiting for the derogatory comments from Silky Whiskers on Crown v Cheong, 2006.
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In a hurry but have come across this - haven't read it fully and maybe it's already been discussed but I'm parking the link here for now http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/directors_guidance/director_s_guidance_on_concurrent_jurisdiction.html
No doubt it's completely irrelevant in which case I'll come back and do my apology and lines later.
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I'm lost.
This was the OP:
Silkywhiskers
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The ILOR's and the CPS
« on: May 31, 2014, 01:10:31 AM »
Quote
The ILOR's weren't about Portugese suspects.
The ILOR's were sent by the CPS - the British CPS who will NEVER have any interest in crimes committed by Portugese nationals.
The CPS deal with prosecutions against British Subjects only.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 06:31:47 PM by John »
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<<SNIP>>
Where crime is committed in more than one jurisdiction, different offences may be committed in different locations. This document provides guidance for CPS prosecutors in cases where criminal investigations have been commenced in more than one jurisdiction and involve suspected criminal conduct that crosses international boundaries. In this document such cases are referred to as cases of concurrent jurisdiction. <<SNIP>>
It will be fun sitting back and watching this thread from here on in as they say.
Good spot Alfie.
Thanks!
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Can you all show me a case where the British CPS involved itself in charging (under British law) a criminal who was not British, nor residing in Britain, nor committing said crime in Britain?
Thanks.
BUMP~~~~
Keep trying, you won't find such a case because the British CPS does NOT handle crime committed by foreigners in a foreign country.
How ridiculous.
Look at the drug mules in various Bali jails. They don't have the CPS running an investigation to help them, do they?
Insanity.
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In certain cases, the British Ambassador might put in a personal appearance, though
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In certain cases, the British Ambassador might put in a personal appearance, though
Don't forget the PM!
I played rugger with him don't you know.
We have so much in common! He can help.
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Don't forget the PM!
I played rugger with him don't you know.
We have so much in common! He can help.
Particularly if he turns a blind eye.
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Once again, Crown v Cheong 2006.
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Once again, Crown v Cheong 2006.
If you're not going to link it, don't bother posting it.
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If you're not going to link it, don't bother posting it.
I'm sorry, I'm a newbie. Is linking mandatory or can the interested party(s) not do their own research for something of no real relevance to Madeleine?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_jurisdiction
International crime
Transborder crimes take place in more than one state. For example, a defendant may fire a gun, post a package, or write or speak words in State A, but the effects of each action are felt in State B. Some states claim a public policy justification to exercise jurisdiction over crimes committed by, or crimes committed against their citizens, even though these crimes are committed outside their borders. Thus, one of the classifications of crime is "crimes against the state". These are crimes that affect the interests of the state or its administration. In extreme cases, a state may wish to prosecute one of its own citizens for treason even though all the relevant acts and omissions took place in another state. Similarly, if a citizen of State A is acting in a way that interferes with the friendly relations between State A and State B, it may be expedient to prosecute this citizen no matter where the relevant acts have been committed. Jurisdiction may also be claimed over crimes on board the ships and aircraft operated by corporations based in the given state, no matter where these craft may be located at the relevant time. In English law, where murder and manslaughter are concerned, the English court has jurisdiction over offences committed abroad, if it was committed by a British citizen (see section 9 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1948). In R v Cheong (2006) AER (D) 385 the appellant was living in Guyana in 1983. He shot and killed a man who had just robbed his wife and sister-in-law. Under local law he was charged only with the unlicensed possession of a firearm; but as a British citizen, section 9 of the 1861 Act applied 19 years after he returned to England and he was charged with murder. On appeal, a conviction for manslaughter was upheld.
This is one of the sources.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_jurisdiction
International crime
Transborder crimes take place in more than one state. For example, a defendant may fire a gun, post a package, or write or speak words in State A, but the effects of each action are felt in State B. Some states claim a public policy justification to exercise jurisdiction over crimes committed by, or crimes committed against their citizens, even though these crimes are committed outside their borders. Thus, one of the classifications of crime is "crimes against the state". These are crimes that affect the interests of the state or its administration. In extreme cases, a state may wish to prosecute one of its own citizens for treason even though all the relevant acts and omissions took place in another state. Similarly, if a citizen of State A is acting in a way that interferes with the friendly relations between State A and State B, it may be expedient to prosecute this citizen no matter where the relevant acts have been committed. Jurisdiction may also be claimed over crimes on board the ships and aircraft operated by corporations based in the given state, no matter where these craft may be located at the relevant time. In English law, where murder and manslaughter are concerned, the English court has jurisdiction over offences committed abroad, if it was committed by a British citizen (see section 9 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1948). In R v Cheong (2006) AER (D) 385 the appellant was living in Guyana in 1983. He shot and killed a man who had just robbed his wife and sister-in-law. Under local law he was charged only with the unlicensed possession of a firearm; but as a British citizen, section 9 of the 1861 Act applied 19 years after he returned to England and he was charged with murder. On appeal, a conviction for manslaughter was upheld.
This is one of the sources.
Hahah I love it when you McFanns try and prove something.
You almost always shoot yourself in the foot.
How is it you all haven't accidentally walked under a bus by now?
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Re: The ILOR's and the CPS
« Reply #49 on: Today at 06:57:58 PM »
• Quote
Quote from: John on Today at 06:25:03 PM
Actually many ex pats never register residency in Spain and Portugal any more so the resident versus holidaymaker argument no longer applies. I think it should also be borne in mind that SY have no authority in Portugal and are only operating through the goodwill extended to them by the Portuguese Ministry.
If suspects are at some point identified, it will be a matter of agreement as to who prosecutes them but the Portuguese have first dibs since the crime occurred on their soil.
The fact that Madeleine, as a minor, is a Ward of an English Court also carries some weight.
Of course they don't register residency in Spain, what would happen to their pensions?
But let's allow the apologists more room to hang themselves.
I am still waiting for an example of CPS involving themselves in a foreign crime - there is none
The above is your earlier post, which I c&p'd in case you deleted it. In this, you do not refer to a British citizen.
I would also hazard a guess that Mr Cheong was not British by birth.
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[quote author=misty48 link=topic=4331.msg158763#msg158763 date=140201217
I would also hazard a guess that Mr Cheong was not British by birth.
Once again Misty, you need to provide credible citations as opposed to personal assumptions regarding the veracity of your assertions.!
That was not an assertion, it was merely an opinion. The article stated he was a British subject which I do not dispute.
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That was not an assertion, it was merely an opinion. The article stated he was a British subject which I do not dispute.
So you've failed to prove a case where the CPS was involved in the crimes of a non-British citizen.
You won't find one.
You might just have to admit you're wrong.
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So you've failed to prove a case where the CPS was involved in the crimes of a non-British citizen.
You won't find one.
You might just have to admit you're wrong.
I have found you a case where the CPS prosecuted a case for a crime committed on foreign soil. Outside the Hague, I doubt there is a court in the world which would meet the full criteria you have requested. You get half a point because I never made an assertion.
However, the original point was about ILORs & the CPS & I think I have proven that point.
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Bump.
As you can see, you have completely failed to prove a point.
But carry on.
You don't know the content of those ILORs though. There are 2 British subjects who were very heavily involved in the case from the 4th May.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10881339/Madeleine-McCann-latest-Met-police-to-speak-to-eight-potential-suspects.html
So Uk police to interview eight Portuguese subjects in Portugal as a result of the ILORs prepared by the CPS
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10881339/Madeleine-McCann-latest-Met-police-to-speak-to-eight-potential-suspects.html
So Uk police to interview eight Portuguese subjects in Portugal as a result of the ILORs prepared by the CPS
From the article:
Scotland Yard detectives will question the “persons of interest” they have identified during a review of the seven-year-old case.
The men wanted for questioning include three convicted drug dealers who are thought to have been involved in burglaries in the area around Praia da Luz in the days leading up to Madeleine’s disappearance.
Officers from Operation Grange sent a letter of request to Portuguese authorities earlier this year after identifying them from mobile phone records which showed the three men had made numerous calls to each other in the hours after the girl went missing on May 3, 2007
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From the article:
Scotland Yard detectives will question the “persons of interest” they have identified during a review of the seven-year-old case.
The men wanted for questioning include three convicted drug dealers who are thought to have been involved in burglaries in the area around Praia da Luz in the days leading up to Madeleine’s disappearance.
Officers from Operation Grange sent a letter of request to Portuguese authorities earlier this year after identifying them from mobile phone records which showed the three men had made numerous calls to each other in the hours after the girl went missing on May 3, 2007
From the very same article:
Scotland Yard refused to confirm or deny the next phase of investigations. “We will not provide a running commentary on the progress of an investigation.”
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The ILOR's weren't about Portugese suspects.
The ILOR's were sent by the CPS - the British CPS who will NEVER have any interest in crimes committed by Portugese nationals.
The CPS deal with prosecutions against British Subjects only.
Bumping this for the McFanns who apparently know what I REALLY WANTED TO SAY........
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Bumping this for the McFanns who apparently know what I REALLY WANTED TO SAY........
The ilors are regarding the questioning of eight Portuguese subjects..its in the telegraph today...the ILORs are also regarding the digging...or are you unaware of whats been happening in Portugal this last week
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The ilors are regarding the questioning of eight Portuguese subjects..its in the telegraph today...the ILORs are also regarding the digging...or are you unaware of whats been happening in Portugal this last week
I am completely aware of events in Portugal.
Perhaps YOU could advise which article from the Telegraph over the years is correct?
The one about Euclides, or the one about Hewlett? What about the article regarding 38 suspects?
SY have stated THEY ARE NOT UPDATING THE MEDIA during this phase.
So where did this rock solid information come from? And since when do police dig holes in the ground BEFORE they've questioned the local suspects?
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The ilors are regarding the questioning of eight Portuguese subjects..its in the telegraph today...the ILORs are also regarding the digging...or are you unaware of whats been happening in Portugal this last week
Now dave, you said either yesterday or the day before, that you predicted nothing would be found.
Now why is that ?
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The argument you are having with yourself?
Because you are still to prove that the CPS would be involved in prosecuting a non British citizen.
the CPS are not involved in prosecuting non british subjects for crimes committed abroad...they are involved in issuing ILORs to allow SY to investigate abroad which is exactly what they have done here
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What is the difference ???
Since that is the point of you posting on here.
CAN YOU PROVIDE YOUR FULL POST ON THAT ?
there is a massive difference...the digs will find nothing that will incriminate the mccanns ...they may find evidence that incriminates others
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the CPS are not involved in prosecuting non british subjects for crimes committed abroad...they are involved in issuing ILORs to allow SY to investigate abroad which is exactly what they have done here
OH so now you have the CPS as a totally uninvolved technicality?
What of the description of their office, the Crown Prosecution Service.
A misnomer? Should they be called the Crown Investigation Team, or the Crown International Letter Service?
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OH so now you have the CPS as a totally uninvolved technicality?
What of the description of their office, the Crown Prosecution Service.
A misnomer? Should they be called the Crown Investigation Team, or the Crown International Letter Service?
So tell me...who have they ever prosecuted..now you are really going to struggle
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there is a massive difference...the digs will find nothing that will incriminate the mccanns ...they may find evidence that incriminates others
How do you know that ?
Are you another Derek Acorah ?
You certainly have a short temper tonight.
Now who does that remind me of ?
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There is no room for faith in a criminal investigation.
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it is obvious to anyone with above average intelligence...but as by definition that rules out half of the population...you may beg to differ
No dave it isn't obvious at all.
When people are acquainted with the real facts of the case, and what they haven't been told in the press or on TV, especially when they are told there is no factual evidence of abduction , let alone forensics, no more than pure rhetoric and hyperbole is left behind.
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the CPS are not involved in prosecuting non british subjects for crimes committed abroad...they are involved in issuing ILORs to allow SY to investigate abroad which is exactly what they have done here
The CPS was involved in the shelved enquiry. I believe his name was Tony Connolly (I think it was).
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It has been reported the Portugal prosecutor has allowed questioning of these people. They are not British. they are Portuguese.
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It has been reported the Portugal prosecutor has allowed questioning of these people. They are not British. they are Portuguese.
Still believing everything we read are we?
8-)(--)
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Still believing everything we read are we?
8-)(--)
so you expect us to believe that the CPS have requested permission from the Portuguese to question UK subjects who are currently in the UK