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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Moderator on June 04, 2014, 01:32:00 PM
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On 21st July 2008, the Madeleine McCann case investigation was archived, pending 'better' evidence. The three arguidos in the process, Robert Murat, Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, had their arguido status removed.
The archiving dispatch or Archiving Report, authored by public prosecutor José de Magalhães e Menezes, and joint prosecutor João Melchior Gomes, is the document that analyses the case investigation and justifies the decision to archive the process.
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As has already been pointed out several times, the McCanns have not been eliminated from a criminal investigation. Even the LP stated this in 2008 when the McCanns tried through the courts to obtain police files. After 7 years, still no evidence has been found which would definitely eliminate them but this does not mean that this is a fascist regime. Do you think that asking someone for an alibi or asking for a reconstruction or getting finger prints are fascist methods. This reminds of crime show where a suspect says "How dare you accuse me of a crime!"
Why have the McCanns been targeted then? This is the talk of typical narcissists who believe that they are the centre of the world and everything is done in function of them.
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As has already been pointed out several times, the McCanns have not been eliminated from a criminal investigation. Even the LP stated this in 2010 when the McCanns tried through the courts to obtain police files. After 7 years, still no evidence has been found which would definitely eliminate them but this does not mean that this is a fascist regime. Do you think that asking someone for an alibi or asking for a reconstruction or getting finger prints are fascist methods. This reminds of crime show where a suspect says "How dare you accuse me of a crime!"
Why have the McCanns been targeted then? This is the talk of typical narcissists who believe that they are the centre of the world and everything is done in function of them.
The McCanns tried to obtain court files while they were still arguios and not cleared.
Now they are cleared.
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The McCanns tried to obtain court files while they were still arguios and not cleared.
Now they are cleared.
Of course they have been cleared...if evidence was to come to light that incriminated them then of course they can be re interviewed and charged...however I cannot see this ever happening as I believe on the available evidence they are totally innocent of any criminal charges
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Of course they have been cleared...if evidence was to come to light that incriminated them then of course they can be re interviewed and charged...however I cannot see this ever happening as I believe on the available evidence they are totally innocent of any criminal charges
First of all, I made a mistake and wrote 2010 instead of 2008 in my previous post. Apologies.
Once again, the McCanns have not been cleared!! The judge in the current libel trial explained this detail to some of the witnesses on the parents behalf and they seemed to be shocked because K&G told them that the archiving report cleared them. Furthermore, in the "acordão" of the appeals court which overturned the book ban, the judges stated that the archiving report was an opinion, not a judicial decision, and was no more valid than the conclusions made in the repor tof 10 September 2007.
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First of all, I made a mistake and wrote 2010 instead of 2008 in my previous post. Apologies.
Once again, the McCanns have not been cleared!! The judge in the current libel trial explained this detail to some of the witnesses on the parents behalf and they seemed to be shocked because K&G told them that the archiving report cleared them. Furthermore, in the "acordão" of the appeals court which overturned the book ban, the judges stated that the archiving report was an opinion, not a judicial decision, and was no more valid than the conclusions made in the repor tof 10 September 2007.
I disagree...the mccanns are in the clear...are not facing any investigation or charges and have therefore been cleared..of course the archiving report was an opinion...that is obvious..
The fact is that the mcccans are not facing any investigation ...they are therefore cleared of their arguido status..you may not like it but thats how it is
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I disagree...the mccanns are in the clear...are not facing any investigation or charges and have therefore been cleared..of course the archiving report was an opinion...that is obvious..
The fact is that the mcccans are not facing any investigation ...they are therefore cleared of their arguido status..you may not like it but thats how it is
Arguido status can be reinstated for up to 20 years....................
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Arguido status can be reinstated for up to 20 years....................
so what
if new evidence comes to light 30 years later or more...charges can still be brought...arguido status is totally irrellevant
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so what
if new evidence comes to light 30 years later or more...charges can still be brought...arguido status is totally irrellevant
Well you've got nothing to worry about then , have you ?
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I disagree...the mccanns are in the clear...are not facing any investigation or charges and have therefore been cleared..of course the archiving report was an opinion...that is obvious..
The fact is that the mcccans are not facing any investigation ...they are therefore cleared of their arguido status..you may not like it but thats how it is
Total hogwash but then again I'm not in the least surprised. For the benefit of Dave, the archiving report is a statement of fact, not an opinion. As for being cleared hmm let's see, cleared of what??
Just watch it all change when a kiddies skeletal remains are found in downtown Luz!
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Total hogwash but then again I'm not in the least surprised. For the benefit of Dave, the archiving report is a statement of fact, not an opinion. As for being cleared hmm let's see, cleared of what??
Just watch it all change when a kiddies skeletal remains are found in downtown Luz!
Montclair said it was opinion...but if you want to call it a statement of fact thats fine...no evidence against the mccanns..... fact...
certainly if maddie remains are found and new evidnce is found to implicate the mccans everything changes...I just don't see that happening in a million years
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First of all, I made a mistake and wrote 2010 instead of 2008 in my previous post. Apologies.
Once again, the McCanns have not been cleared!! The judge in the current libel trial explained this detail to some of the witnesses on the parents behalf and they seemed to be shocked because K&G told them that the archiving report cleared them. Furthermore, in the "acordão" of the appeals court which overturned the book ban, the judges stated that the archiving report was an opinion, not a judicial decision, and was no more valid than the conclusions made in the repor tof 10 September 2007.
When is a legal summary signed by the public prosecution service not a judicial decision?
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When is a legal summary signed by the public prosecution service not a judicial decision?
When it's one that appears to clear the McCanns of any involvement in their daughter's disappearance, obviously.
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When it's one that appears to clear the McCanns of any involvement in their daughter's disappearance, obviously.
Montclair is perfectly correct in what she posted earlier, it is not competent for Portuguese prosecutors to make any decision as to guilt or innocence, that is not their function. The Archival Report was a statement of the known and established facts then prevailing which allowed them to shelve the case.
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Montclair is perfectly correct in what she posted earlier, it is not competent for Portuguese prosecutors to make any decision as to guilt or innocence, that is not their function. The Archival Report was a statement of the known and established facts then prevailing which allowed them to shelve the case.
Was it a judicial decision or not?
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The statement did not "clear" them because there was nothing to clear them from. They had neither been charged nor convicted.
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When is a legal summary signed by the public prosecution service not a judicial decision?
The clue is in the name. A court and judge make judicial decisions NOT a public prosecutor.
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The McCanns tried to obtain court files while they were still arguios and not cleared.
Now they are cleared.
No they are not, the failed to "demonstrate their innocence".
How can you be cleared if you have "failed to demonstrate your innocence"?
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8((()*/
On proving innocence the position in UK law is clear:
The burden of proof (onus probandi) can be defined as a legal duty upon a party to prove or disprove a disputed fact or facts during the course of litigation [3] . This means in general terms, that if on any issue of fact if no evidence is led, or the evidence leaves the matter in doubt, the party upon whom the burden of proof rests has not discharged it, and accordingly fails on that issue [4] . It makes no difference to his failure that his opponent may not have proved his own averments [5] .
Scottish criminal courts place the burden of proof on the prosecution at all times [6] . This is because in criminal proceedings the court must assume innocence [7] . The accused cannot be found guilty by a court unless the prosecution provides evidence to prove his guilt; and so in course, he cannot be punished by a criminal court unless he has first been found guilty [8] . This presumption of innocence is unqualified applying to everyone who is charged with a criminal offence regardless of their character [9] . This point of law has been articulated in Slater v HM Advocate.
“The jury was told that what is familiarly known as the presumption of innocence in the criminal cases applied to the appellant (in light of his ambiguous character) with less effect than it would have applied to a man whose character was not open to suspicion. This amounted, in our opinion, to a clear misdirection in law. The presumption of innocence applies to every person charged with a criminal offence in precisely the same way, and it can be overcome only by evidence relevant to prove crime with the commission of which charged.” [10]
It is because of this active presumption of innocence in criminal trials, the burden of proof lies with the Crown to prove the accused’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt [11] . If evidence is lead by the prosecution a reasonably doubt exists as to the accused’s guilt, he must be acquitted [12] . The evidential burden of proof stays with the Crown throughout the whole of the trail. Even in the scenario where the accused is pleading a line of defence under common law or statute the burden remains the same [13] . It is said to be an “a grave misdirection to suggest that the accused carries a burden of proving innocence.” [14]
It would be difficult to improve upon Lord Sankey LC’s formulation of this in Woolmington v DPP [15] , an English case but one which expresses the Scottish principle equally well [16] .
There is has been a tendency, particularly on the part of English legal writers, to distinguish what they call the “legal” burden proof from what they call the “provisional” burden [17] . The legal burden is the requirement on the prosecution to present evidence before the court to entitle it to convict [18] . There comes however at which the evidence led by the prosecution is sufficient for the accused to be convicted unless he leads convincing evidence is led in his defence. This is the “provisional” burden. A case where such a burden did arise is Milne v Whaley in which the accused was acquitted by a sheriff on a charge of driving without a licence or insurance because there was no corroboration [19] . The High Court held that the on appeal the Sheriff’s approach had been incorrect, saying:
“All the Crown has to do is to demonstrate prima facie the absence of an entitlement to drive and the Crown has amply done that in this case by proving the circumstances in which the charge was brought. There so if an accused person wishes to displace the prima facie inference... it is for him to do so.” [20]
Another example where a provisional burden may arise is in circumstances, where the accused is found in “recent possession” of stolen goods may to prove that he is not guilty of theft or reset [21] .
“If the rule is to have full effect in shifting the onus from the prosecution to the accused and raising a presumption of guilt which the accused must redargue or fail, three conditions must concur:- (a) that the stolen goods should be found in the possession of the accused; (b) that the interval between the theft of the goods and their discovery in the accused’s possession should be short… and (c) that there should be “other criminative circumstances “over and above the bare fact of actual possession” [22] .
This may be an unfortunate shift on the onus of proof, although it has been repeated in the courts since, in Cryans v Nixon [23] . A garage owner was charged with the theft of motor accessories and scrap metal. The accused's premises were about 200 yards from the premises from which the goods had been stolen; tracks could be seen leading from those premises to the accused's premises. On a search being made, some of the stolen property was found in one of the accused's sheds and that the accused, when asked for an explanation, replied that he knew nothing about the property in question [24] . The Sheriff applied application of the doctrine of recent possession, rejected the explanation, and convicted the accused. On appeal it was that held that the proved facts did not entitle the Sheriff to view the case as one in which there was an onus on the accused to rebut the presumption of guilt arising from the possession of recently stolen goods and conviction quashed.
It is in McDonald v HM Advocate Lord Justice General Hope where it is articulated that the doctrine of recent possession “cannot be confined within the ordinary rule that the onus of proof remains throughout on the Crown. [25] ” In principle, the legal burden rests with the prosecution but can be discharged by proof of “recent possession” in this way, and in such circumstances all that shifts is the “provisional burden” [26] .
The courts also recognise that where an explanation for otherwise suspicious conduct lies peculiarly within the knowledge of the accused a provisional burden may fall upon him to explain his conduct [27] . In HM Advocate v Hardy, the accused was charged with fraud by pretending to be the husband of a deceased woman and as such entitled to legal rights in her estate [28] . The jury, took note of the fact that the accused had not gone into the witness-box to say where he had met the deceased, where they were married or what had happed to the men he claimed had acted as witness at the ceremony [29] . Lord Justice-Clerk Aitchison articulated;
“There are certain cases in which the proved facts may raise a presumption of guilt, and in which, in the absence of some explanation by the person accused, - where the person accused is the one person who can know the real truth – a jury man may be entitled to proceed to draw an inference of guilt; and I direct you in law that this is one of them” [30]
At first sight, such a principle may be thought to be at odds with the right to silence [31] . An answer to this “conflict” is suggested by Mochan v Herron, where Sheriff Peterson observed that an accused in suspicious circumstances was fully entitled to remain silent (unlike other witnesses, who can be held in contempt of court for not testifying) but if the accused did remain silent there could be no objection to the court drawing its own conclusion from the evidence [32] .
The defence of insanity and diminished responsibility place a temporary persuasive burden on the accused. When submitting a special defence there is duty for the accused party to provide advance notice of such an intention [33] . At common law, alibi, incrimination, and self defence are considered as special defences [34] . By statute, automatism, coercion and consent in sexual offences are considered special defences. [35]
As a special defence if insanity is proven, the accused will be acquitted [36] . Normally expert evidence is given to support such an assertion [37] . Unlike insanity, diminished responsibility is not a special defence. If successfully pleaded by the accused diminished responsibility will not lead to an acquittal rather it will lead to a reduction of the charge of murder to culpable homicide [38] . At common law there is a presumption of sanity that must be rebutted by the party alleging insanity or diminished responsibility [39] . A persuasive burden is placed on the accused from the outset to prove insanity or diminished responsibly is invoked as a defence [40] . The standard of proof of the provided evidence in support of these defences is on balance of probabilities at most [41] . These defences would be difficult disprove, particularly so as the prosecution do not have the mandate to impose that the accused submit to psychiatric examination [42] . Perhaps it is for reasons of convenience that that burden is placed with the accused [43] .
The Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 which received Royal Assent on the 6th of August this year, accounts for these expectations through statute [44] . However the term insanity is not present in the Bill, rather headed as “criminal responsibility of persons with mental disorder”. The Act does not amend the burden of proof for these defences and the general common law rules will still stand [45] .
Civil cases often work by the prescribed principle that the burden of proof “rests with the party who would fail if no evidence were adduced on either side [46] ”. Hence the burden of proof normally lies with the pursuer [47] .
At different points of a civil trial, the burden of proof often switches between parties in respect of different issues [48] . In cases of negligence, the pursuer will bear the burden of presenting evidence that the defender has been negligent. However, should the defender want to plea a defence such as contributory negligence, or Volenti non fit Injuria (to a willing person, no injury is done), then he will word missing the burden of proof in that issue. This is because a party to a civil case will not normally be required to prove a negative – and so it is for the defender to prove these defences, not for the pursuer to disprove them [49] .
Statutory provisions can place a burden of proof but alter who the burden of proof lies with. Nimmo v Alexander Cowan & Sons Ltd is the leading case highlighting this issue [50] . In Nimmo there was an alleged breached of statutory duty under the Factories Act 1967. S 29 (1) of the Act sets out that a factory “shall, far as reasonably practicable, be made and kept safe for any person working there” [51] . It was held it was not for the purser to submit evidence that premises were not safe, but not that it was not “reasonably practicable” to make them safe [52] . If the defender wished reply upon this proviso, he bore the burden of proof in that respect. In the words of Lord Wilberforce, “exceptions, ect. are to be set up by those who rely on them [53] .
On regarding the notion who asserts must prove my research supports this as a general principle. In criminal cases the legal burden of proof remains with the prosecution to prove the accused’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and is based on sound ethical principles of society. In some circumstances whether through common law or statue a provisional burden may be placed upon the accused to account for his actions. In civil law the pursuer is normally charged with the burden of proof, but the defendant can be required to establish certain defences. This I feel is a fair just and balanced legal doctrine
Read more: Evidence leaves the matter in doubt | Law Teacher http://www.lawteacher.net/criminal-law/essays/evidence-leaves-the-matter-in-doubt-law-essays.php#ixzz34bJ02fhC
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You appear to be all confused.
There was not a criminal trial and the archiving summary was not summarising a trial.
It was summarising a police investigation where the McCann's had not been ruled out of involvement in a disturbed (thanks to the McCann's) investigation.
Now your lot can keep spouting this rubbish as much as you want (it seems to keep popping up every three months or so) but until you stop confusing a criminal trial finding with a summation of a police investigation, you will continue to be corrected.
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The statement did not "clear" them because there was nothing to clear them from. They had neither been charged nor convicted.
They were not cleared of suspicion from the police investigation, which was the subject the archiving report was summarising.
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They were not cleared of suspicion from the police investigation, which was the subject the archiving report was summarising.
the arguido status was removed and the mcccanns cleared as suspects. Sy have confirmed they are no longer suspects. Mccanns cleared...end of..get over it
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the arguido status was removed and the mcccanns cleared as suspects. Sy have confirmed they are no longer suspects. Mccanns cleared...end of..get over it
Read the archiving report again, AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT.
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the arguido status was removed and the mcccanns cleared as suspects. Sy have confirmed they are no longer suspects. Mccanns cleared...end of..get over it
How can the McCanns be cleared of a crime if it has not yet been established which crime was committed?
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Read the archiving report again, AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT.
it clears the mccanns..
from the telegraph
Madeleine McCann: Kate and Gerry cleared of 'arguido' status by Portuguese police
The parents of Madeleine McCann have been cleared of involvement in their daughter's disappearance, ten months after they were made 'arguidos' - formal suspects - in the case.
you can think what you like its not important
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How can the McCanns be cleared of a crime if it has not yet been established which crime was committed?
Exactly. 8((()*/
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Exactly. 8((()*/
It never ceases to amaze me how seemingly intelligent people still fail to recognise this situation.
Again...look at what the telegraph says..
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Again...look at what the telegraph says..
Rubbish comment.
The crime occurred in Portugal.
Did you hear what the Telegraph reporter said on the Nick Ferrari program on LBC Friday morning dave ?
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Rubbish comment.
The crime occurred in Portugal.
Did you hear what the Telegraph reporter said on the Nick Ferrari program on LBC Friday morning dave ?
I cant be bothered with someone who has shown themselves to be so stupid
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It never ceases to amaze me how seemingly intelligent people still fail to recognise this situation.
It is true that the Report suggests reasons why the McCanns were not involved in Madeline's disappearance but that is as far as it goes. The crime is unknown, Madeline's fate is unknown and the perpetrator(s) if there are any is unknown. The McCanns were made arguidos in the concealment of Madeleine's body and the simulation of an abduction. Since proof of these offences failed to materialise the prosecutors were forced to remove the arguido status and write the Report.
In the eyes of the Law the McCanns are innocent until proven guilty. The legal question of them being 'cleared' therefore does not arise. The Press use the term 'cleared' as an emotive throw away label because it sells newspapers, it has no real relevance to the McCanns. The truth is the McCanns have never been cleared of involvement in their daughters disappearance and if evidence were found tomorrow which pointed to them having been involved they can be arrested just like anyone else.
Until such times as someone is convicted of Madeleine's abduction or it has been determined that she died following some misadventure then there will always be suspicions surrounding the parents. That I'm afraid is real life.
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It never ceases to amaze me how seemingly intelligent people still fail to recognise this situation.
It is true that the Report suggests reasons why the McCanns were not involved in Madeline's disappearance but that is as far as it goes. The crime is unknown, Madeline's fate is unknown and the perpetrator(s) if there are any is unknown. The McCanns were made arguidos in the concealment of Madeleine's body and the simulation of an abduction. Since proof of these offences failed to materialise the prosecutors were forced to remove the arguido status and write the Report.
In the eyes of the Law the McCanns are innocent until proven guilty. The legal question of them being 'cleared' therefore does not arise. The Press use the term 'cleared' as an emotive throw away label because it sells newspapers, it has no real relevance to the McCanns. The truth is the McCanns have never been cleared of involvement in their daughters disappearance and if evidence were found tomorrow which pointed to them having been involved they can be arrested just like anyone else.
Until such times as someone is convicted of Madeleine abduction or it has been determined that she died of misadventure then there will always be suspicions surrounding the parents.
I just accept what the telegraph says...even if someone else was convicted there would still be some who would still blame the parents
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It never ceases to amaze me how seemingly intelligent people still fail to recognise this situation.
It is true that the Report suggests reasons why the McCanns were not involved in Madeline's disappearance but that is as far as it goes. The crime is unknown, Madeline's fate is unknown and the perpetrator(s) if there are any is unknown. The McCanns were made arguidos in the concealment of Madeleine's body and the simulation of an abduction. Since proof of these offences failed to materialise the prosecutors were forced to remove the arguido status and write the Report.
In the eyes of the Law the McCanns are innocent until proven guilty. The legal question of them being 'cleared' therefore does not arise. The Press use the term 'cleared' as an emotive throw away label because it sells newspapers, it has no real relevance to the McCanns. The truth is the McCanns have never been cleared of involvement in their daughters disappearance and if evidence were found tomorrow which pointed to them having been involved they can be arrested just like anyone else.
Until such times as someone is convicted of Madeleine's abduction or it has been determined that she died following some misadventure then there will always be suspicions surrounding the parents. That I'm afraid is real life.
Spot on.
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The truth is that all this is of no importance...the mccanns are not considered suspects in maddies disappearance...this is just too difficult for some to accept
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I just accept what the telegraph says...even if someone else was convicted there would still be some who would still blame the parents
Some people will never learn, even a smidgen of common sense.
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The Telegraph article confuses being cleared as a suspect with being cleared of a crime. But then the former sounds better and creates a more sensational headline.
For anyone who might have missed it, the Telegraph article.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2439530/Madeleine-McCann-Kate-and-Gerry-cleared-of-arguido-status-by-Portuguese-police.html
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Posters are reminded that abusive posts will be removed on sight as per forum rules.
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The Telegraph article confuses being cleared as a suspect with being cleared of a crime. But then the former sounds better and creates a more sensational headline.
For anyone who might have missed it, the Telegraph article.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2439530/Madeleine-McCann-Kate-and-Gerry-cleared-of-arguido-status-by-Portuguese-police.html
So the mccanns have been cleared as suspects...that's fine
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So the mccanns have been cleared as suspects...that's fine
For once in your life, try to comprehend what the report said.
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For once in your life, try to comprehend what the report said.
Im agreeing with mr moderator...mccanns cleared as suspects
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Clear:
to free from suspicion, accusation, or imputation of guilt:
The McCanns have been freed (cleared) from suspicion. Judges and juries clear (free) from accusation or imputation of guilt.
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Clear:
to free from suspicion, accusation, or imputation of guilt:
The McCanns have been freed (cleared) from suspicion. Judges and juries clear (free) from accusation or imputation of guilt.
anyone with an ounce of sense can see the logic in that
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from the telegraph
Madeleine McCann: Kate and Gerry cleared of 'arguido' status by Portuguese police
The police investigate crime Dave, they don't make decisions or clear suspects but then let's be honest, all MSM are tarred with the same brush.
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The police investigate crime Dave, they don't make decisions or clear suspects but then let's be honest, all MSM are tarred with the same brush.
amaral certainly accused the mcccans of a crime AND found them guilty
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the arguido status was removed and the mcccanns cleared as suspects. Sy have confirmed they are no longer suspects. Mccanns cleared...end of..get over it
"failed to demonstrate their innocence"
end of...get over it.
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amaral certainly accused the mcccans of a crime AND found them guilty
So using your logic why didn't Amaral send them to prison?
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amaral certainly accused the mcccans of a crime AND found them guilty
From a legal point of view that seems already like a strange thing to say - is there even a concept of joint responsibilty, or whatever it's called, in the portugese legal system?
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Clear:
to free from suspicion, accusation, or imputation of guilt:
The McCanns have been freed (cleared) from suspicion. Judges and juries clear (free) from accusation or imputation of guilt.
No they havent in Portugal.
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So using your logic why didn't Amaral send them to prison?
what a stupid post...see if you can work out the answer for yourself
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who gives a toss about portugal
Given that is where the child disappeared from and they are the only ones who can investigate in Portugal, anyone whio cares to find out what happened to the poor child should "give a toss".
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No they havent in Portugal.
Officially they have. Just because most Portuguese still suspect them is down in large part to Amaral's propaganda campaign.
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what a stupid post...see if you can work out the answer for yourself
So why does it matter if Amaral thought they were guilty then?
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Given that is where the child disappeared from and they are the only ones who can investigate in Portugal, anyone whio cares to find out what happened to the poor child should "give a toss".
it is obvious from the presence of SY that they are not capable of investigating
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Officially they have. Just because most Portuguese still suspect them is down in large part to Amaral's propaganda campaign.
Officially they have not.
"failed to demonstrate innocence" can never equal cleared, can it?
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So why does it matter if Amaral thought they were guilty then?
wait for the libel trial verdict and you will understand
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it is obvious from the presence of SY that they are not capable of investigating
Not in the real world.
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wait for the libel trial verdict and you will understand
What's that got to do with whether he thought they were guilty when he was part of the investigation?
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Not in the real world.
sy are there in the real world...absolutely unheard of you must agree
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sy are there in the real world...absolutely unheard of you must agree
I never said they were not.
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What's that got to do with whether he thought they were guilty when he was part of the investigation?
that wasn't your question look back and read again
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that wasn't your question look back and read again
I know what my question was i asked it.
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I never said they were not.
sy are there because the pj were inept
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sy are there because the pj were inept
No they aren't.
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Officially they have not.
"failed to demonstrate innocence" can never equal cleared, can it?
Are they still officially under suspicion then?
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Are they still officially under suspicion then?
"Not being cleared" does not equal "being officially under suspicion".
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Are they still officially under suspicion then?
Until such time as someone other than the McCann's is charged or a new archiving despatch is written then the one which stated they had "failed to demonstrate their innocence" remains the last word of the investigation.
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it is not a legal requirement to demonstrate innocence
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Until such time as someone other than the McCann's is charged or a new archiving despatch is written then the one which stated they had "failed to demonstrate their innocence" remains the last word of the investigation.
Are they officially still under suspicion then?
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it is not a legal requirement to demonstrate innocence
They weren't in court
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it is not a legal requirement to demonstrate innocence
They weren't in a court room.
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Are they officially still under suspicion then?
We won't know the answer to that until someone is charged or a new archiving report is written.
ETA: Lets hope this time the investigation is able to be completed and not sabotaged by the people supposedly having the missing child's best interests at heart, then maybe we can get some real closure.
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We won't know the answer to that until someone is charged or a new archiving report is written.
ETA: Lets hope this time the investigation is able to be completed and not sabotaged by the people supposedly having the missing child's best interests at heart, then maybe we can get some real closure.
do you really believe the mcanns stopped the investigion...if so how have the pj managed to start it again
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do you really believe the mcanns stopped the investigion
Yes.
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We won't know the answer to that until someone is charged or a new archiving report is written.
What will it need to say in the next report to convince you that the are no longer officially suspects? The reason I ask is I suspect if it fails to mention any suspicions about the McCanns at all (which is highly likely imo), then doubters will take that as evidence that they are still under suspicion (crazy as that may sound now).
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SY have no legal jurisdiction in Portugal nor did they write the last or the new archiving despatch.
you are struggling and seem unable to accept the mccanns are not in the picture...
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you are struggling and seem unable to accept the mccanns are not in the picture...
Irrelevant to what was being discussed between you and i.
You appear to be struggling to counter the fact that SY have no jurisdiction in Portugal nor did they write the archiving report.
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you clipped my post...sign of desperation
My answer related to that particular question.
In answer to your other question it is obvious why the case was reopened.
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you are struggling and seem unable to accept the mccanns are not in the picture...
Do you think they are out of the picture?
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Irrelevant to what was being discussed between you and i.
You appear to be struggling to counter the fact that SY have no jurisdiction in Portugal nor did they write the archiving report.
Im well aware of both...they are currently investigating and have declared the mccanns not suspects
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Do you think they are out of the picture?
a million per cent
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My answer related to that particular question.
In answer to your other question it is obvious why the case was reopened.
why was the case re opened
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Im well aware of both...they are currently investigating and have declared the mccanns not suspects
That's an answer to a completely different question.
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Im well aware of both...they are currently investigating and have declared the mccanns not suspects
and that's what matters
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why was the case re opened
The PJ presented new evidence which resulted in the case being re-opened.
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Im well aware of both...they are currently investigating and have declared the mccanns not suspects
and that's what matters
That's what matters to you. Not to people who want to actually discuss the case. You're sounding like the same stuck record on every thread. It's frustrating for everyone else and embarrassing for you.
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That's what matters to you. Not to be able who want to actually discuss the case. You're sounding like the same stuck record on every thread. It's frustrating for everyone else and embarrassing for you.
I get lots of PMs of support
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The PJ presented new evidence which resulted in the case being re-opened.
you are very gullible...what was this new evidence
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you are very gullible...what was this new evidence
How else could the case be opened? Until such time as a case is brought to court or the case is archived again we will not know the exact nature of that evidence.
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The clue is in the name. A court and judge make judicial decisions NOT a public prosecutor.
The Ministério Público is the Portuguese body of autonomous magistrates formed of public prosecutors. It is a body of the Portuguese judicial system which includes the Procuradoria-Geral da República.
The Portuguese criminal investigation police, the Polícia Judiciária, is supervised by the Ministério Público.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ministry
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minist%C3%A9rio_P%C3%BAblico_de_Portugal
So what is the public prosecutor if not part of the judicial system?
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In the second paragraph of the Introduction of the Final Report, it's clear IMO that the whole document is based on an assumption being made, that the total possible window time of time of exit or removal is "21H05" to "22H00".
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In the second paragraph of the Introduction of the Final Report, it's clear IMO that the whole document is based on an assumption being made, that the total possible window time of time of exit or removal is "21H05" to "22H00".
the whole idea proposed by amaral is absurd which the final report acknowledges
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I get lots of PMs of support
Blair and Brown?
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the whole idea proposed by amaral is absurd which the final report acknowledges
Rare but there have been a couple of cases where failure to solve was (easy to see in retrospect) due to misassumption of the time window.
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the whole idea proposed by amaral is absurd which the final report acknowledges
The AR doesn't mention Dr Amaral at all as he was but one cog in a very big wheel. This is where the critics argument falls down because the police investigation was one of collective rather than the individual.
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The Ministério Público is the Portuguese body of autonomous magistrates formed of public prosecutors. It is a body of the Portuguese judicial system which includes the Procuradoria-Geral da República.
The Portuguese criminal investigation police, the Polícia Judiciária, is supervised by the Ministério Público.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ministry
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minist%C3%A9rio_P%C3%BAblico_de_Portugal
So what is the public prosecutor if not part of the judicial system?
So is the Crown Prosecution Service in the Uk, but since when can they make judicial findings?
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The AR doesn't mention Dr Amaral at all as he was but one cog in a very big wheel. This is where the critics argument falls down because the police investigation was one of collective rather than the individual.
never said the final report mentions amaral...but the ideas he put forward in his book were rejected by the final report
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never said the final report mentions amaral...but the ideas he put forward in his book were rejected by the final report
That is why it remains 'type of crime unknown'.