UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2014, 11:37:28 PM
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Dr Ferguson's witnesss statement states the following:
"I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed. She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions. This was around 1959. She required e.c.t as an in patient and made a full recovery."
Sheila (born Phyllis Webb) was born on 18th July 1957 and spent the first two weeks of her life with her birth mother Christine Jay. She then spent the next few weeks of her life in a nursery situated in Box, Wiltshire. This was followed by her placement with Nevil and June Bamber, during October 1957, who legally adopted SC shortly afterwards.
During SC's first 2/3 years of life she experienced a number of different 'primary caregivers':
Birth mother - Christine Jay
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Various caregivers at nursery in Box, Wiltshire
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Adoptive mother - June Bamber
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Unknown person whilst June was receiving in-patient psychiatric treatment for severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC
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Adoptive mother - June Bamber
If a baby fails to form a secure attachment with a primary caregiver it has the potential to give rise to an 'attachment disorder'. There is much evidence by way of SC's lifelong history across all areas of her life to suggest she did not form a secure attachment and suffered an attachment disorder:
http://www.attachmentexperts.com/whatisattachment.html
In addition to the potential for an attachment disorder due to failure to bond with a primary caregiver it is likely that SC suffered neglect as a result of June's depression:
Maternal Depression Can Undermine the Development of Young Children
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp8/
The Science of Neglect: The Persistent Absence of Responsive Care Disrupts the Developing Brain
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp12/
Dr Allan Schore : http://www.allanschore.com/
Dr Allan Schore on early attachment and the roots of suicide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ236szRMD4&list=PLjVgchotHSQBJg-p0dq5sUhQXlA[Name removed]M85D&index=1
Dr Allan Schore explains how an infant's cognitive structure is effected by a mother's depression
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZQhCMy3vU
Dr Allan Schore on attachment trauma and the effects of neglect and abuse on the brain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB51V3fAAvs&list=PLjVgchotHSQBJg-p0dq5sUhQXlA[Name removed]M85D&index=2
The psychological, psychiatric and neuroscientific evidence is overwhelming in suggesting SC was responsible for murdering her adoptive parents and children and taking her own life. I do not believe there is a psychologist, psychiatrist, neuroscientist anywhere in the world that will see it differently. Especially when compared with JB's psychological profile as stated by Professor Vincent Egan and the many other psychologists/psychiatrists who have evaluated JB many times, using different methods, over different time periods:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
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Shortly after I joined The Jeremy Bamber forum I posted the following:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2310.msg69862.html?PHPSESSID=b928037beb9d01fdcb69eb8b9e2ce76d#msg69862
At 4. above I ask if SC was a schizophrenic. I am now of the opinion she wasn't and that Dr Ferguson's diagnosis of SC was wrong. I believe the correct diagnosis was 'Borderline Personality Disorder'. If I am correct this has a number of implications:
1. Currently, no medication is licensed to treat borderline personality disorder in the UK. Therefore SC's prescribed medication of Haliperidol to treat schizophrenia was likely to have been ineffective.
2. SC's potential for aggression and violence was misunderstood by all concerned including the jury.
3. SC's potential to carry through on suicide was misunderstood by all concerned including the jury.
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Hi Holls :)
How can you state that a Psychiatrist got the diagnosis wrong? Have you ever met Sheila; interviewed her? Are you a qualified shrink yourself?
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Hi Holls :)
How can you state that a Psychiatrist got the diagnosis wrong? Have you ever met Sheila; interviewed her? Are you a qualified shrink yourself?
That's what Bamberettes do Andi .... to make their 'poor Jeremy' innocent they all know better than everyone involved in the case including the twins father, Bamber's surviving relatives, the police, jury, etc.etc.etc.
Nobody who knew Bamber outside prison doubts for one second he is a murdering b......... How arrogant it is to state you know better!
At least our Hols shows due respect though; I appreciate her for that! 8@??)(
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Hi Holls :)
How can you state that a Psychiatrist got the diagnosis wrong? Have you ever met Sheila; interviewed her? Are you a qualified shrink yourself?
Yes I guess I was being a bit bold there Andrea; some might say presumptuous but I think I might be right! Is it any different from those who believe JB guilty continuing to label him a psychopath, sociopath etc when they know full well he has been evaluated numerous times by qualified personnel, using different methods, over different time periods, and no hint of any mental illness or personality disorder has ever been identified. And yet they refuse to accept any of this preferring instead to believe that JB is so skilled in manipulation that he could deceive the likes of Prof Egan:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
As I think you know I studied psychology at degree level in the 80's (unrelated career) and when I first read Dr F's WS and his reference to June suffering from depression (potential for neglect due to unresponsiveness) as a result of adopting SC I recalled 'attachment' from my course and thought it was highly relevant. More so with SC being adopted ie the more separations from 'primary caregivers' the more chance of an attachment disorder occurring. It is certainly something Dr F would have been completely familiar with as its a cornerstone of psychology/psychiatry and yet he makes no reference to it. Although he does tell us about June's depression circa 1959 and the cause of it. Imo this would be like a heart surgeon saying a heart attack patient was clinically obese, never took any exercise and on a daily basis consumed 3 fry-ups, 40 cigs, and 20 pints and yet not connecting the lifestyle to the heart attack! Cause and effect!
As far as I can see the purpose of Dr F's was to advise interested parties on SC's mental state past and present. Why bring up June's depression from 1959 if it had no relevance to SC? He makes reference to it and yet fails to explain the relevance. Why?
Anyway since the 80's 'attachment' has moved on leaps and bounds. All the research shows that a poor attachment can result in a lack of empathy which is a feature of psychopathy. If you're interested you may care to check out the following at 9.40 min in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE
It features Prof Simon Baron-Cohen talking about zero degrees of empathy in connection with psychopathy and 'attachment'. As much as those who believe JB guilty might not want to hear this, there really is overwhelming evidence to suggest that SC suffered from an attachment disorder leading to a lack of empathy and the potential for psychopathy. Please don't shoot the messenger!
As June suffered from severe depression it is highly likely that at some point in the lead up to her hospitalisation that SC suffered from neglect by way of June being unresponsive and SC not getting her needs met. Again the evidence from neuroscientists is overwhelming in showing how infant neglect literally shapes brain architecture, feeds into implicit memory, wreaks havoc on the limbic system and impairs executive functions over the entire lifespan of the individual if left untreated. I think in SC's case the underlying problems went untreated. Certainly Haliperidol was not the way. You will recall I am sure from CC's book Andrea that SC pleaded with CC to discuss her treatment with NB and June as she herself felt it was all wrong. CC promised to do this on Sunday 4th August but did not follow through.
To say its an understudied aspect of the WHF case is somewhat on an understatement. I am surprised I am the only person that appears to have touched on it. When I say person I mean not just poster but professionals too. I think with a multi-disciplinary approach ie psychologists, psychiatrists and neuroscientists evaluating SC's case history they would overwhelmingly support SC as being responsible.
It is believed JB's motivation was greed and hatred of his family. Based on the above I have to go with the motivation being based on attachment and loss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8
By all accounts SC's reunion with her birth mother, which took place just weeks before the murders, was a positive experience. However after the initial euphoria of the first meeting wore off, and her birth mother was back in Canada, and SC made her first post reunion visit to WHF and was in June's company for an extended period of time I think something sparked off in her mind.
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Yes I guess I was being a bit bold there Andrea; some might say presumptuous but I think I might be right! Is it any different from those who believe JB guilty continuing to label him a psychopath, sociopath etc when they know full well he has been evaluated numerous times by qualified personnel, using different methods, over different time periods, and no hint of any mental illness or personality disorder has ever been identified. And yet they refuse to accept any of this preferring instead to believe that JB is so skilled in manipulation that he could deceive the likes of Prof Egan:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
As I think you know I studied psychology at degree level in the 80's (unrelated career) and when I first read Dr F's WS and his reference to June suffering from depression (potential for neglect due to unresponsiveness) as a result of adopting SC I recalled 'attachment' from my course and thought it was highly relevant. More so with SC being adopted ie the more separations from 'primary caregivers' the more chance of an attachment disorder occurring. It is certainly something Dr F would have been completely familiar with as its a cornerstone of psychology/psychiatry and yet he makes no reference to it. Although he does tell us about June's depression circa 1959 and the cause of it. Imo this would be like a heart surgeon saying a heart attack patient was clinically obese, never took any exercise and on a daily basis consumed 3 fry-ups, 40 cigs, and 20 pints and yet not connecting the lifestyle to the heart attack! Cause and effect!
As far as I can see the purpose of Dr F's was to advise interested parties on SC's mental state past and present. Why bring up June's depression from 1959 if it had no relevance to SC? He makes reference to it and yet fails to explain the relevance. Why?
Anyway since the 80's 'attachment' has moved on leaps and bounds. All the research shows that a poor attachment can result in a lack of empathy which is a feature of psychopathy. If you're interested you may care to check out the following at 9.40 min in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE
It features Prof Simon Baron-Cohen talking about zero degrees of empathy in connection with psychopathy and 'attachment'. As much as those who believe JB guilty might not want to hear this, there really is overwhelming evidence to suggest that SC suffered from an attachment disorder leading to a lack of empathy and the potential for psychopathy. Please don't shoot the messenger!
As June suffered from severe depression it is highly likely that at some point in the lead up to her hospitalisation that SC suffered from neglect by way of June being unresponsive and SC not getting her needs met. Again the evidence from neuroscientists is overwhelming in showing how infant neglect literally shapes brain architecture, feeds into implicit memory, wreaks havoc on the limbic system and impairs executive functions over the entire lifespan of the individual if left untreated. I think in SC's case the underlying problems went untreated. Certainly Haliperidol was not the way. You will recall I am sure from CC's book Andrea that SC pleaded with CC to discuss her treatment with NB and June as she herself felt it was all wrong. CC promised to do this on Sunday 4th August but did not follow through.
To say its an understudied aspect of the WHF case is somewhat on an understatement. I am surprised I am the only person that appears to have touched on it. When I say person I mean not just poster but professionals too. I think with a multi-disciplinary approach ie psychologists, psychiatrists and neuroscientists evaluating SC's case history they would overwhelmingly support SC as being responsible.
It is believed JB's motivation was greed and hatred of his family. Based on the above I have to go with the motivation being based on attachment and loss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8
By all accounts SC's reunion with her birth mother, which took place just weeks before the murders, was a positive experience. However after the initial euphoria of the first meeting wore off, and her birth mother was back in Canada, and SC made her first post reunion visit to WHF and was in June's company for an extended period of time I think something sparked off in her mind.
Aside from having zero qualification to make any mental assessment at all you are ignoring the evidence related to the murders.
It would be like me trying to assess who had a better motive for murdering April you or Mat. And only looking at motive but completely ignoring all the evidence that actually answers the question of who did it.
The evidence proves Sheila can't have killed herself and ther eis no evidence she killed anyone else either.
You choose to ignore reality going so far as to ignore that there was a struggle in the kitchen all so you cna present bogus psychology claims that hold no water either and completely ignore Sheila's situation on the day of the murders.
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That sounds about right, but I guess all concerned will be keen to establish how an individual could carry out the crimes he was convicted of in the absence of showing any mental illness/personality disorder? The judge delivered the sentence immediately after the verdicts were reached so it doesn't appear sentencing was adjourned pending psychiatric reports etc. JB must surely have been formally assessed at some stage eg upon starting his time on remand or soon after sentencing?
Holly have you ever watched the Ted Bundy interviews or especially when he represented himself at court? The judge called Bundy a very bright young man who he would have loved to have practise before him in his court ..... then he sentenced him to death for dozens of terrible murders of young women including 3 in one night. Bundy also returned to dead bodies to sexually molest them long after he killed them!
You would properly find Bundy charming as most people did. A very self confident man who also passed all examinations foe mental disorders!
Bamber is very similar to Bundy in many ways (imo) although his murders were for practical gain rather than sexual deviancy!
There's lots of you tube clips!
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Holly have you ever watched the Ted Bundy interviews or especially when he represented himself at court? The judge called Bundy a very bright young man who he would have loved to have practise before him in his court ..... then he sentenced him to death for dozens of terrible murders of young women including 3 in one night. Bundy also returned to dead bodies to sexually molest them long after he killed them!
You would properly find Bundy charming as most people did. A very self confident man who also passed all examinations foe mental disorders!
Bamber is very similar to Bundy in many ways (imo) although his murders were for practical gain rather than sexual deviancy!
There's lots of you tube clips!
From my albeit very limited knowledge on TB I don't really see any similarities with JB. Other than both were born illegitimate. To avoid the stigma TB's maternal grandparents brought him up as their son and his mother was known as his sister! Like June TB's maternal grandmother suffered from depression and periodically underwent electro-convulsive treatment but this potentially affected SC not JB. As far as I can see that's where the similarities end. TB exhibited 'odd' behaviour at an early age. His maternal grandfather appears to have been an explosive, unsavoury and unstable character. TB eventually found out about his * true paternity and lived with his mother and step-father. The family were low-socio economic. TB was diagnosed with various personality disorders notably psychopathy. None of this applies to JB.
I struggle to comprehend anyone shooting dead two 6 year old boys in bed while asleep without suffering from some sort of personality disorder and/or mental illness.
*It seems uncertain who fathered TB. Some say his maternal grandfather?!
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From my albeit very limited knowledge on TB I don't really see any similarities with JB. Other than both were born illegitimate. To avoid the stigma TB's maternal grandparents brought him up as their son and his mother was known as his sister! Like June TB's maternal grandmother suffered from depression and periodically underwent electro-convulsive treatment but this potentially affected SC not JB. As far as I can see that's where the similarities end. TB exhibited 'odd' behaviour at an early age. His maternal grandfather appears to have been an explosive, unsavoury and unstable character. TB eventually found out about his * true paternity and lived with his mother and step-father. The family were low-socio economic. TB was diagnosed with various personality disorders notably psychopathy. None of this applies to JB.
I struggle to comprehend anyone shooting dead two 6 year old boys in bed while asleep without suffering from some sort of personality disorder and/or mental illness.
*It seems uncertain who fathered TB. Some say his maternal grandfather?!
Prisons across the globe are loaded with murderers who were not diagnosed as having any mental disrders and indeed in most areas the insane are not tried but instead institutionalized.
Just because you want to believe that only people with mental problems can kill that doesn't make it so. Moreover, some suggest JB did have a personality disorder that failed to be diagnosed. Most of the time such diagnonses come about only when someone tries to escape libaility by claiming they are insane and after being examined it is determined they simply have a personality disorder not insanity.
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Holly you cannot judge people solely by their family background or their psychological diagnosis!
Bamber and Bundy have a lot of similarities. Both are/were considered very attractive to women and exuded a breezy self confidence. Both treated being questioned and accused and finally charged with quite horrendous crimes in their stride and loved the limelight! Both treated the police and courts with amusement and never believed their 'inferiors' could possibly outsmart them and get a guilty verdict.
Both exhibited a total lack of empathy for their victims nor showed a flicker of remorse. Demonstrated by Bundy grilling his own surviving victims on the stand when he defended himself and Bamber trying to sell private porn photos of his sister and murder victim to the police).
Finally, in the face of mountains of evidence to prove their guilt, both men continued to deny any involvement whatsoever! (Hardly surprising I guess considering the appalling nature of their crimes!) Bundy only finally admitting what he did to try and delay his execution!
Very similar narcissistic psychopaths in my opinion!
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Holly you cannot judge people solely by their family background or their psychological diagnosis!
Bamber and Bundy have a lot of similarities. Both are/were considered very attractive to women and exuded a breezy self confidence. Both treated being questioned and accused and finally charged with quite horrendous crimes in their stride and loved the limelight! Both treated the police and courts with amusement and never believed their 'inferiors' could possibly outsmart them and get a guilty verdict.
Both exhibited a total lack of empathy for their victims nor showed a flicker of remorse. Demonstrated by Bundy grilling his own surviving victims on the stand when he defended himself and Bamber trying to sell private porn photos of his sister and murder victim to the police).
Finally, in the face of mountains of evidence to prove their guilt, both men continued to deny any involvement whatsoever! (Hardly surprising I guess considering the appalling nature of their crimes!) Bundy only finally admitting what he did to try and delay his execution!
Very similar narcissistic psychopaths in my opinion!
I L-O-V-E it when you get all dominant with me. You roaring like a tiger and me purring like a pussy...
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Prisons across the globe are loaded with murderers who were not diagnosed as having any mental disrders and indeed in most areas the insane are not tried but instead institutionalized.
Just because you want to believe that only people with mental problems can kill that doesn't make it so. Moreover, some suggest JB did have a personality disorder that failed to be diagnosed. Most of the time such diagnonses come about only when someone tries to escape libaility by claiming they are insane and after being examined it is determined they simply have a personality disorder not insanity.
Can you name me one case IN ENGLAND OR WALES where a man has murdered two sleeping small children and not been diagnosed with some mental illness or personality disorder?
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Extracts from CoA 2002:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
5. The killings occurred in the early hours of 7 August 1985. All five of those who died met their deaths from gunshot wounds. They were the appellant's parents, Ralph Nevill Bamber and June Bamber, his sister, Sheila Caffell, and his sister's 6 year old twin sons, Nicholas and Daniel Caffell. There was no dispute at trial that four of the five had been murdered. In respect of the fifth, Sheila Caffell, there was an issue, which lay at the very heart of the case, as to whether she had been murdered as the prosecution alleged or whether she had taken her own life as the defence contended.
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
84. The defence at trial called Dr Ferguson, a Consultant Psychiatrist at St Andrew's Hospital in Northampton, who had the care of Sheila Caffell between August 1983 and her death. Mrs Caffell had been referred for treatment by her general practitioner and seen by Dr Ferguson for the first time on 2 August 1983. Then she was in a very agitated and psychotic state and he admitted her for in-patient treatment on 4 August. Dr Ferguson came initially to the diagnosis of a schizo-affective disorder characterised by disturbance of thinking and perception. She was depressed in a paranoid way, struggling with the concept of good and evil and caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to project the Devil's evil to others including her twin sons. In particular she spoke of a fear she could create in her children an ability to have sex and do violence with her. In the discharge letter Dr Ferguson made reference to her morbid thoughts, which included the idea she was capable of murdering her children or communicating an ability to them to kill. He said she had spoken of suicidal thoughts although he did not regard her as a suicide risk. Miss Caffell responded to the treatment at hospital and was discharged on 10 September 1983
Post #1 of this thread, plus above, plus the following from Dr Allan Schore:
Dr Allan Schore explains that effective suicide prevention is contingent upon addressing the mother - infant dyad in the first year of life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzytfh2wan8
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Extracts from CoA 2002:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
5. The killings occurred in the early hours of 7 August 1985. All five of those who died met their deaths from gunshot wounds. They were the appellant's parents, Ralph Nevill Bamber and June Bamber, his sister, Sheila Caffell, and his sister's 6 year old twin sons, Nicholas and Daniel Caffell. There was no dispute at trial that four of the five had been murdered. In respect of the fifth, Sheila Caffell, there was an issue, which lay at the very heart of the case, as to whether she had been murdered as the prosecution alleged or whether she had taken her own life as the defence contended.
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
84. The defence at trial called Dr Ferguson, a Consultant Psychiatrist at St Andrew's Hospital in Northampton, who had the care of Sheila Caffell between August 1983 and her death. Mrs Caffell had been referred for treatment by her general practitioner and seen by Dr Ferguson for the first time on 2 August 1983. Then she was in a very agitated and psychotic state and he admitted her for in-patient treatment on 4 August. Dr Ferguson came initially to the diagnosis of a schizo-affective disorder characterised by disturbance of thinking and perception. She was depressed in a paranoid way, struggling with the concept of good and evil and caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to project the Devil's evil to others including her twin sons. In particular she spoke of a fear she could create in her children an ability to have sex and do violence with her. In the discharge letter Dr Ferguson made reference to her morbid thoughts, which included the idea she was capable of murdering her children or communicating an ability to them to kill. He said she had spoken of suicidal thoughts although he did not regard her as a suicide risk. Miss Caffell responded to the treatment at hospital and was discharged on 10 September 1983
Post #1 of this thread, plus above, plus the following from Dr Allan Schore:
Dr Allan Schore explains that effective suicide prevention is contingent upon addressing the mother - infant dyad in the first year of life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzytfh2wan8
So why didn't Moses turn into a psychotic serial killer? >@@(*&)
Or perhaps he did but never got caught!
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http://www.businessinsider.com/most-mass-murderers-arent-mentally-ill-2012-12
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So why didn't Moses turn into a psychotic serial killer? >@@(*&)
Or perhaps he did but never got caught!
Lol. My understanding of the fable is that Moses, the adopted son, murdered an Egyptian?!
I do believe there's a psychology peculiar to adoption as set out in the following book but I don't believe it's pathological. If it is how come so many adoptees self-actualise/are 'successful' eg Steve Jobs?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Psychology-Adoption-David-Brodxinsky/dp/0195082737
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv_GkEcITkE
Its very unlikely that Steve Job's adoptive mother suffered from depression/mental illness as a result of her decision to adopt him.
The scientific evidence across all relevant disciplines marks out the Bamber family/WHF murders not based on adoption per se but June's mental illness circa 1959 caused by her decision to adopt SC and its likely negative impact on SC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3j5UVCSCA&list=PLuKMerO1zya_3krFpcOKgaeB2_2zQgYua
Imo this can be further evidenced by looking across all aspects of SC's life not just her mental illness per se:
- Under achieving at school despite hailing from a birth family of academics and attending a fee paying school
- Unable to hold down a job
- Difficulty in forming and maintaining relationships
- Difficulty in parenting her children
- Drug abuse
- Low self-esteem
- Depression
- Highly strung
- Violent
- Quick Temper
- Worry over small problems
- Jumpy
- Uptight and panicky
The above words were sourced from the WS's of Dr F, CC and FE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n3QI_d5c80
>@@(*&)
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http://www.businessinsider.com/most-mass-murderers-arent-mentally-ill-2012-12
Thanks for the link Scipio.
The article actually states "Mass murderers are not, according to statistics, mentally ill in the psychiatric sense. That is to say they are not living outside reality".
It then goes on to say:
"The most common characteristics are social isolation, introversion, withdrawal and a relative deficit in social skills and relationships. At the same time, signs of paranoia can also be observed. These people often believe that people are after them, bullying them or ignoring them".
"These features of course do not make someone a murderer. For a person to commit an act as extreme as mass murder, these characteristics have to be very intense. On top of the paranoid behaviour, there is also megalomania and self-centeredness".
The above doesn't sound 'normal' to me Scipio?
Random one-off incidents of murder are usually brought about by crimes of passion, anger, substance abuse, where a person feels under threat etc. Over and above this eg the case of Adam Lanza and WHF as far as I can see there is always some underlying mental illness and/or personality disorder.
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Thanks for the link Scipio.
The article actually states "Mass murderers are not, according to statistics, mentally ill in the psychiatric sense. That is to say they are not living outside reality".
It then goes on to say:
"The most common characteristics are social isolation, introversion, withdrawal and a relative deficit in social skills and relationships. At the same time, signs of paranoia can also be observed. These people often believe that people are after them, bullying them or ignoring them".
"These features of course do not make someone a murderer. For a person to commit an act as extreme as mass murder, these characteristics have to be very intense. On top of the paranoid behaviour, there is also megalomania and self-centeredness".
The above doesn't sound 'normal' to me Scipio?
Random one-off incidents of murder are usually brought about by crimes of passion, anger, substance abuse, where a person feels under threat etc. Over and above this eg the case of Adam Lanza and WHF as far as I can see there is always some underlying mental illness and/or personality disorder.
You skipped the part about how Schizophrenics typically lack the skillset to plan and carry out mass murders.
Moreover, the quote "The most common characteristics are social isolation, introversion, withdrawal and a relative deficit in social skills and relationships. At the same time, signs of paranoia can also be observed. These people often believe that people are after them, bullying them or ignoring them". doesn't reflect have mental disorders but rather simply being shy, introverted, socially awkward and things along those lines.
It went on to point out though that most people with these issues do not try to kill and that many people with such characteristics who committed mass murder killed because of, "megalomania and self-centeredness".
Killing for money like Jeremy did is self-centeredness. Hating his family so being willing to kill them for greed because he would not miss them is about satisfying himself and not caring about them.
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You skipped the part about how Schizophrenics typically lack the skillset to plan and carry out mass murders.
Moreover, the quote "The most common characteristics are social isolation, introversion, withdrawal and a relative deficit in social skills and relationships. At the same time, signs of paranoia can also be observed. These people often believe that people are after them, bullying them or ignoring them". doesn't reflect have mental disorders but rather simply being shy, introverted, socially awkward and things along those lines.
It went on to point out though that most people with these issues do not try to kill and that many people with such characteristics who committed mass murder killed because of, "megalomania and self-centeredness".
Killing for money like Jeremy did is self-centeredness. Hating his family so being willing to kill them for greed because he would not miss them is about satisfying himself and not caring about them.
I didn't skip the bit about schizophrenics typically lacking the skill set to plan and carry out mass murders. The article is referring to the Adam Lanza's of this world, not a domestic such as WHF where the weaponry, victims etc were on site so to speak.
In any event I am not even convinced that SC's diagnosis of schizophrenia was the correct one.
I do not believe that JB was anymore self-centered than Joe Average or that he hated any member of his family.
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Dr Daniel J Siegal:
http://www.drdansiegel.com/about/biography/
"The various causative factors for disorganised attachment, and how this can lead to violent behaviour".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGDqJYEi_Ks
"A coherent explanation of how one is triggered to go down the emotional "low road", leading to behaviours one would never engage in during "normal" or "high road" emotional states".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkEcpBU3TpE
The second video clip again centres on 'disorganised attachment' in children leading to unresolved grief/trauma in adulthood and a vulnerability to violence.
Until I can see something from professionals discounting June's mental illness circa 1959 and its likely negative impact on SC including a propensity to violence I will continue to believe JB is the victim of a MoJ. Especially when there's no evidence JB was a violent person pre prison. Post prison he has been subjected to various assessments by different professionals over different time periods and no one has identified any mental illness or personality disorder.
In a case that has been dogged by controversy for almost 3 decades, the psychological evidence overwhelmingly points to SC being the perpetrator. The statistical chances of this not being the case must be near zero: one sibling had numerous caregivers where one was seriously mentally ill and as a result likely to have provided inadequate care; the other sibling had fewer caregivers where none were mentally ill and provided adequate care No brainer >@@(*&)
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Until I can see something from professionals discounting June's mental illness circa 1959 and its likely negative impact on SC including a propensity to violence I will continue to believe JB is the victim of a MoJ. Especially when there's no evidence JB was a violent person pre prison. Post prison he has been subjected to various assessments by different professionals over different time periods and no one has identified any mental illness or personality disorder.
In a case that has been dogged by controversy for almost 3 decades, the psychological evidence overwhelmingly points to SC being the perpetrator. The statistical chances of this not being the case must be near zero: one sibling had numerous caregivers where one was seriously mentally ill and as a result likely to have provided inadequate care; the other sibling had fewer caregivers where none were mentally ill and provided adequate care No brainer >@@(*&)
Neither was Roderick Newall who beat his parents to death with a pickaxe and rice flail to get his hands on their £1 million estate, or Stephen Seddon who blasted both his parents to death with a shotgun for his £230,000 inheritance.
I don't see any difference between these two despicable murderers and Jeremy Bamber - i.e. in their insatiable greed to get loads'a money before it was due to them.
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Neither was Roderick Newall who beat his parents to death with a pickaxe and rice flail to get his hands on their £1 million estate, or Stephen Seddon who blasted both his parents to death with a shotgun for his £230,000 inheritance.
I don't see any difference between these two despicable murderers and Jeremy Bamber - i.e. in their insatiable greed to get loads'a money before it was due to them.
In the cases you mention the juries did not have to decide between two siblings. In the WHF case the jury was told it was either SC or JB (the official line for the first month being SC). The chances of the sibling who suffered numerous changes in primary caregivers where one caregiver was seriously mentally ill and where that sibling then went on to exhibit a whole range of behaviour indicative of an attachment disorder not then being responsible for the murders/suicide is statistically very unlikely. Especially when the other sibling has always been psychologically normal. Lets not forget too that the jury were not told about June's mental illness circa 1959 and the likely negative impact on SC as a result of an attachment disorder eg lack of empathy, propensity to violence and suicide etc. On the contrary Dr F told the court that SC was not a suicide risk and that he did not feel she would be someone who would actually be violent to her children or towards her father. I have provided numerous links to world class experts in the fields of psychology, psychiatry, neuroscience/biology all confirming inadequate caregiving leading to a disorganised attachment are very likely to give rise to lack of empathy, propensity to violence and suicide.
Based on the links I have provided the motivation for the murders/suicide had nothing whatsoever to do with greed but rather a disorganised attachment and unresolved grief and trauma.
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Given the level of violence involved in the WHF murders I think it is important that an explanation is found.
The following podcast is from a series entitled 'The bomb in the brain' by podcaster Stefan Molyneux. Part 3 is based on the biology of violence. All claims supported by appropriately qualified persons and decades of research:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIDvdzjzSto&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux
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Not in a million years could Sheila have attacked Nevill and ended up without a mark on her (except for the two gunshot wounds) or a drop of his blood spattered on her or her nightdress. In real life these things just don't happen.
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Not in a million years could Sheila have attacked Nevill and ended up without a mark on her (except for the two gunshot wounds) or a drop of his blood spattered on her or her nightdress. In real life these things just don't happen.
I think the fact that June very obviously received her first shots as she lay in bed, and Ralph was also shot in the bedroom but had managed to scramble out of bed as the shootings started (you can clearly see the indentation of his head on the pillow) proves that a) Bamber thought that he could shoot them both as they slept, but underestimated the power of the gun (hence the overkill to the boys) and b) that there HAD to be blood on the phone. Ralph must have been injured before he went downstairs, or June surely wouldn't have her head on her pillow when she was shot. Which she clearly did. That can't be denied. June would hardly have lain in bed while Ralph tried to cope with Sheila "going crazy with a gun."
The first question that I ever asked of Mike, moons ago, was.....why was there no blood on the phone? You needed 2 hands to operate that old-fashioned phone. Ralph's blood trail went from the bedroom, down the stairs, into the kitchen, on the cupboard doors, and STOPPED. Just before the poor man was allowed to reach the phone. Just before he was beaten into submission.
All this stuff, and the image of Sheila, and other bits and bobs, made me realise that I'd been madly wrong to believe for 25 years that Bamber was innocent. And in the last 4 years, nothing has made me change my mind.
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Sorry, I've been up since 5....underestimated should read overestimated. 8(8-))
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Sorry, I've been up since 5....underestimated should read overestimated. 8(8-))
I know that Scipio has covered this much better than I ever could, but.....what exactly was going on when Ralph took time out of the desperate situation to call Bamber? Why would Ralph chance at least 5 minutes while Sheila roamed the house with a loaded gun? What if....Bamber was too knackered from harvest, too stoned to pick up, couldn't hear the phone, had left the answerphone on, was at a girlfriend's house (NOT Julie, before someone gets anal about that), had a lock-in at the local, was sitting outside smoking a joint?
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I know that Scipio has covered this much better than I ever could, but.....what exactly was going on when Ralph took time out of the desperate situation to call Bamber? Why would Ralph chance at least 5 minutes while Sheila roamed the house with a loaded gun? What if....Bamber was too knackered from harvest, too stoned to pick up, couldn't hear the phone, had left the answerphone on, was at a girlfriend's house (NOT Julie, before someone gets anal about that), had a lock-in at the local, was sitting outside smoking a joint?
All these factors are relevant variables. Ralph already knew that Bamber had robbed the caravan park, and Ralph was also worried about a shooting accident. The poor man knew that his days were numbered. He just didn't expect Bamber to take the whole family out.
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All these factors are relevant variables. Ralph already knew that Bamber had robbed the caravan park, and Ralph was also worried about a shooting accident. The poor man knew that his days were numbered. He just didn't expect Bamber to take the whole family out.
And I think that this reflects on Julie. She loved him, she hated him, she wanted him, she missed him, she wanted to keep him, she wanted to hurt him. She honestly didn't believe that Bamber did what he did, but when it was obvious that he DID kill his family, she couldn't handle it. She actually tried to cope with it for a while. She nearly went along with it. But she did the right thing in the end.
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If the situation which Jeremy claims took place had actually occurred he would have been out of there like a hare and at the farm in five minutes flat. He didn't need to speak to Julie or dander along at 20mph to let the cops pass or put off more time putting on another cardigan in the middle of the summer. All of it adds up to one big lie!
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I know that Scipio has covered this much better than I ever could, but.....what exactly was going on when Ralph took time out of the desperate situation to call Bamber? Why would Ralph chance at least 5 minutes while Sheila roamed the house with a loaded gun? What if....Bamber was too knackered from harvest, too stoned to pick up, couldn't hear the phone, had left the answerphone on, was at a girlfriend's house (NOT Julie, before someone gets anal about that), had a lock-in at the local, was sitting outside smoking a joint?
Don't sell yourself short 8(>(( I would read your posts and they would give me food for thought. With Scipio's they just make me @)(++(*
I find with Skipio it's quantity over quality. His posts contain very little supporting evidence by way of links to internal and external sources to back up his assertions. They are not a patch on posts from the likes of Hartley and Myster who again would at least give me food for thought. Scipio's posts are so extreme I wonder if he realises much of what he posts is an own goal. Perhaps that's the whole point >@@(*&)
Anyway re your post, I think ? I recall seeing a photo with bloody fingerprints on the work surface?
Did some initial confrontation take place in the kitchen between NB and SC with SC waving the gun about in a threatening manner but NB never thinking she would actually use it. NB calls JB ?. Meanwhile SC goes to the bedroom and starts shooting June. NB drops the phone and runs to the bedroom. Having been shot at he realises, having called JB and asked him to come over, that JB himself is going to be in danger and heads for the kitchen in an attempt to continue the phone call and/or open the kitchen door to warn JB off?
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If anyone is interested in understanding more about the title thread I've have just done a Google search on 'Disorganised attachment suicide' with 1,750,000 hits. I've tried typing various permutations with the following key words which return varying numbers in hits:
Disorganised attachment, neuroscience, neurobiology, neurochemistry, aggression, violence, suicide
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Calling Skipio
Skipio 8**8:/: I was wondering if you might share with us your views on the following:
Adoption: Attachment and Neurobiological Perspectives by Dr Daniel Sonkin (Sonkin @)(++(*)
http://www.daniel-sonkin.com/pdfs/postadoption2011.pdf
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Dr Ferguson WS:
"I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed. She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions. This was around 1959. She required e.c.t as an in patient and made a full recovery."
A short film (5 mins) : Pendulum : A Portrait of Maternal Depression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoMm69uMHpE
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https://interpersonaabpri.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/paper-1_khetrapal.pdf