Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on June 12, 2014, 10:55:34 AM
Title: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on June 12, 2014, 10:55:34 AM
The holiday Company who placed the tapas group in block 5 of the Ocean Club Gardens complex was Mark Warner Holidays. They had a duty of care towards their guests which by all counts they failed to deliver in respect of Madeleine McCann.
Information gleamed since Madeline's disappearance confirms that there were was a history of burglaries and attempted break-ins at the complex which Mark Warner management were aware of yet apparently saw fit to inform their guests or provide appropriate security after dark.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 12, 2014, 03:20:10 PM
^^^^
I think it is not locals that spread the [ censored word ] and unrest against the police work. It is those who make money out of tourists and these are mainly ex pats..
I cannot believe how heartless these people are. Same as Mark Warner who never warned their guests the area was stricken by criminals and to be careful. If they did I believe this would have never happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on June 13, 2014, 12:46:39 AM
I think it is not locals that spread the [ censored word ] and unrest against the police work. It is those who make money out of tourists and these are mainly ex pats..
I cannot believe how heartless these people are. Same as Mark Warner who never warned their guests the area was stricken by criminals and to be careful. If they did I believe this would have never happened to Madeleine.
I quite agree. Mark Warner have a lot to answer for. IMO the reason they did so much to help the McCanns after Madeleine was abducted was because they knew they had failed them with their decision not to mention the regular burglaries or the fact that they knew families were being targetted by a sex offender.
If - having made that decision to keep this information quiet - they had then increased their security and installed CCTV cameras, then one might be able to excuse them to some degree. But they did nothing. Shameful.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 13, 2014, 12:49:50 AM
The whole population of one nation having the same opinion would in the society be classified as fascism.
In democratic societies people respect their differences.
There is a certain number of conspiracy theorists who instead of taking care of their own life tend to escape into fantasies and conspiracies and who spend their days making up these non realistic theories.
Modern policing has to follow certain procedures, such as the digging that we have seen in PDL, this is what in a normal procedure we would have seen in 2007..instead we listened story after story.. all made up by speculators!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 13, 2014, 12:52:25 AM
If the McCanns did not decide to leave their children unattended, Maddie would not be missing right now. But yeah, blame the Portuguese people.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 13, 2014, 12:57:31 AM
If the McCanns did not decide to leave their children unattended, Maddie would not be missing right now. But yeah, blame the Portuguese people.
McCanns left Madeleine because they were copying the 'listening service' which Mark Warner advertised in their booklet and was performing as a service on regular basis in many of their resorts.
1000s of parents left their children sleeping alone in their rooms in Mark Warner resorts all over the world and Mark Warner staff would go round ( same as the Tapas group did) and would 'listen' to these left alone children.
When McCanns arrived in Portugal they were told Ocean Club has no listening service but they weren't told there were many burglaries in the surrounding apartments.
If they were told to be careful and that the apartments are being broken into the McCanns would never leave their children alone.. they simply thought this was safe thing to to.. as it was being done in other Mark Warner resorts.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 13, 2014, 01:05:50 AM
McCanns left Madeleine because they were copying the 'listening service' which Mark Warner advertised in their booklet and was performing as a service on regular basis in many of their resorts.
The point is they did not need to, as there was a night creche and the nanny services, available till 11 p.m. free of charge. It was their own selfish decision that created a window of opportunity for a abductor (if there was one).
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: misty on June 13, 2014, 01:12:05 AM
The point is they did not need to, as there was a night creche and the nanny services, available till 11 p.m. free of charge. It was their own selfish decision that created a window of opportunity for a abductor (if there was one).
There were many windows of opportunity during the preceding nights to take not just Madeleine but any of the other children. Or is the theory "well, no-one has taken the opportunity to kidnap her yet so we'll have to kill her tonight?" the next to be mooted?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2014, 01:14:26 AM
McCanns left Madeleine because they were copying the 'listening service' which Mark Warner advertised in their booklet and was performing as a service on regular basis in many of their resorts.
1000s of parents left their children sleeping alone in their rooms in Mark Warner resorts all over the world and Mark Warner staff would go round ( same as the Tapas group did) and would 'listen' to these left alone children.
At the MW resort in Greece (where a few of the group had been before) the staff on child-listening duty would certainly be sacked if they were caught drinking on duty. And that is not a trivial regulation. It's because alcohol impairs cognition and decision making.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on June 13, 2014, 01:14:59 AM
If the McCanns did not decide to leave their children unattended, Maddie would not be missing right now. But yeah, blame the Portuguese people.
No-one is blaming the Portuguese people - but I do wonder how many of them were influenced by the vile smear campaign conducted via the media against the McCanns and their friends. The same terrible injustice was perpetrated against Leonor Cipriano, in fact so successfully that the equivalent of a lynch mob attended her trial.
The McCanns did no different to millions of other families when on holiday and some are still doing the same today - i.e. leaving their children fast asleep knowing that someone would be checking on them at regular intervals.
You are right in saying that if the McCanns had not mirrored this form of babyminding - Madeleine might not be missing - however that does not give anyone the right to go into their apartment and abduct her. The only criminal here is the monster who took her. It seems to me that some people are almost implying that no blame should be attached to him/them - because of the McCanns babyminding arrangements
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 13, 2014, 01:25:24 AM
The point is they did not need to, as there was a night creche and the nanny services, available till 11 p.m. free of charge. It was their own selfish decision that created a window of opportunity for a abductor (if there was one).
But you do agree that if they ( and other tourists ) were told about burglaries and child attacks they would think twice before imagining PDL was as safe as they thought?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 13, 2014, 01:31:59 AM
But you do agree that if they ( and other tourists ) were told about burglaries and child attacks they would think twice before imagining PDL was as safe as they thought?
Leaving the children unattended is never safe, no matter the rate of criminality. The McCanns as the doctors should be very much aware of it, as such children very often end up in the hospital.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2014, 01:37:34 AM
The Greek resort listening service had checks every 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 13, 2014, 01:50:10 AM
Leaving the children unattended is never safe, no matter the rate of criminality. The McCanns as the doctors should be very much aware of it, as such children very often end up in the hospital.
I agree. But they did not have the clear picture. Their vision of Mark Warner resort wasn't realistic. They believed they were in a safe and laid back old fashioned village when they in fact were in an building which in the past 2 months prior to their arrival had several break ins which were never reported to the tourists. Tourist were not informed of break ins and nor about attacks on many girls. In pubs, bars, airports, many places in the UK if the spot is known for crime you get written warnings.. they are everywhere. Why not in PDL?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2014, 07:59:30 AM
If the McCanns did not decide to leave their children unattended, Maddie would not be missing right now. But yeah, blame the Portuguese people.
Can you explain how children were being assaulted in their beds while their parents were asleep? Kate and Gerry actually being in the apartment does not mean that it wouldn't have happened.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2014, 08:13:48 AM
Can you explain how children were being assaulted in their beds while their parents were asleep? Kate and Gerry actually being in the apartment does not mean that it wouldn't have happened.
Well the risk factors would be minimal, especially if the windows were locked as well as the doors, don't you think ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2014, 08:20:21 AM
Well the risk factors would be minimal, especially if the windows were locked as well as the doors, don't you think ?
Particularly if all the homes benefitted from air conditioning to suit the Portuguese climate and a trainee home invader who hadn't yet mastered entering premises quietly and without the need for a key.
Maybe the blame culture directed at victims should give way to trying to do something about the perpetrator, don't you think?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2014, 08:43:54 AM
Well the risk factors would be minimal, especially if the windows were locked as well as the doors, don't you think ?
Well, it happened, and more than once. Or are you accusing these sleeping parents of somehow being responsible?
But then I have often said that Kate and Gerry would still be subjected to this hate campaign even if they had been there and it had happened in the dead of night.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 13, 2014, 11:29:48 AM
The point is they did not need to, as there was a night creche and the nanny services, available till 11 p.m. free of charge. It was their own selfish decision that created a window of opportunity for a abductor (if there was one).
Yeah.....like all those girls going out drinking....asking to be raped then complaing.....its all there own fault isnt it
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2014, 11:37:57 AM
I wouldn't have wanted to cart three sleeping children back from the night creche with only two parents to do it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2014, 12:17:08 PM
I wouldn't have wanted to cart three sleeping children back from the night creche with only two parents to do it.
If all the tapas group had safely placed their children in the crèche then there would have been more than enough adults to escort the children to their apartments.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: xtina on June 13, 2014, 12:24:52 PM
I don't remember your parents leaving you at home when they went on holiday, although I don't suppose anyone would have castigated them if they had. But they did leave you alone while they had dinner. Nothing wrong with that either. IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 13, 2014, 12:37:22 PM
I don't remember your parents leaving you at home when they went on holiday, although I don't suppose anyone would have castigated them if they had. But they did leave you alone while they had dinner. Nothing wrong with that either. IMO.
We always had family meals on holiday....
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 13, 2014, 01:46:55 PM
The risk factors would be minimal if the tourists were informed about the both, attacks on children in their bedrooms and the break-ins.
Instead, this info was kept secret.
They were in a foreign country.
Even at a basic level of commonsense you would never leave the doors unlocked.
The mccanns had none at all.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on June 18, 2014, 08:12:27 PM
I have always said that Mark Warner Company got off the hook too easily on the occasion of Madeleine's perceived abduction. Had I been a guest and later found out that the management knew about these intruders and did nada about it, I would have been furious.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2014, 08:59:28 PM
Well, it happened, and more than once. Or are you accusing these sleeping parents of somehow being responsible?
But then I have often said that Kate and Gerry would still be subjected to this hate campaign even if they had been there and it had happened in the dead of night.
Excuses, excuses.
They weren't there, and they were out boozing and eating.
They are responsible for that and no one else.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 18, 2014, 09:33:12 PM
Whatever happened, they weren't doing the best for their children.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on June 18, 2014, 09:57:12 PM
I have always said that Mark Warner Company got off the hook too easily on the occasion of Madeleine's perceived abduction. Had I been a guest and later found out that the management knew about these intruders and did nada about it, I would have been furious.
I agree John. Although hindsight is an exact science I think Mark Warner got off very lightly in this whole affair.
However I don't think MW could have carried out proper risk assessments or if they did they didn't implement them as far as security of the apartments was concerned. Margaret Hall's statement makes it clear that management had been made aware of the man she saw lurking in the darkness outside Apartment 5A five months before the event while she was baby sitting.
I noticed from her statement that the patio doors were referred to as the front door.
-quote -"She said that the front door was the main door to enter the apartment, situated at the back." -end quote
She also mentioned motion sensitive lights being activated when she went outside at 00.30. -quote - "She left by the front door and in the darkness, by the movement sensitive lights, she saw something move and thought its was a rat." - end quote
I have read the statement before but that didn't register with me ... were the Drs McCann relying on seeing these lights going on from the Tapas as an additional safeguard to the checks?
Also she was able to give a good description ... I can recall one efit which I think would match that ... does anyone know if she was asked to help compose an efit?
I wouldn't have wanted to cart three sleeping children back from the night creche with only two parents to do it.
An in-apartment child-sitting service was available at Mark Warner PDL. And not some member of staff you and your kid don't know. The same nannies who you trusted your kid to in the day were available for in-apartment child-sitting. It was about 15 euros an hour IIRC ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Montclair on June 18, 2014, 10:36:42 PM
These stories of break-ins and a crime wave in the area is just BS made up to justify the McCanns story. I live in the Algarve, have always worked in tourism and I can assure you that no one I know has any idea about this so-called crime wave. Things like that don't go unnoticed and everyone in the Algarve would have been talking about it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on June 18, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
These stories of break-ins and a crime wave in the area is just BS made up to justify the McCanns story. I live in the Algarve, have always worked in tourism and I can assure you that no one I know has any idea about this so-called crime wave. Things like that don't go unnoticed and everyone in the Algarve would have been talking about it.
That's because the burglars target holiday makers and not residents. The former is an easy target and more than often don't want to make a fuss.
Someone commented earlier that surely the PJ knew about these minor robberies. They might not have done as the local GNR might have dealt with them and filed them away in BIN01.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 18, 2014, 10:45:18 PM
These stories of break-ins and a crime wave in the area is just BS made up to justify the McCanns story. I live in the Algarve, have always worked in tourism and I can assure you that no one I know has any idea about this so-called crime wave. Things like that don't go unnoticed and everyone in the Algarve would have been talking about it.
SY made these sex attacks up did they? I see.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 18, 2014, 10:55:48 PM
That's because the burglars target holiday makers and not residents. The former is an easy target and more than often don't want to make a fuss.
Someone commented earlier that surely the PJ knew about these minor robberies. They might not have done as the local GNR might have dealt with them and filed them away in BIN01.
Don't insult the GNR. I always had to accompany holiday makers and house owners to the GNR when there were break-ins so that they could obtain police affidavits so that they could make insurance claims. And they always came when there was a problem and did not ignore calls. I remember them even investigating some white powder someone put around the apartments.
Also, why would a holiday maker ignore and brush aside a break-in or an attempted assault on their children? Do you believe that anyone would continue their holiday knowing that someone had broken in their accommodation? Don't be silly. This is such a ridiculous idea. Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 18, 2014, 11:12:57 PM
" There is also a babysitting service, which runs from 19H30 to 01H00, and is carried out in the apartment of the requesting guests " (Source: C.Baker statement 6 May 2007) What was the guests' excuse for not using that?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 18, 2014, 11:28:14 PM
Provide any formal SY statement mentioning these attacks.
from the Telegraph. Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, the senior investigating officer said his team had received around 500 calls following last month’s appeal. He said: "As a result of those 500 calls, we have now identified a further five sexual assaults and one near miss. None of those six matters we were aware of prior to our appeal. "In this new tranche of information we have got one crime which is very clearly in the heart of Praia da Luz in 2005, on a young, white, 10-year-old girl. "Clearly the fact that we've now got an assault that is in the heart of Praia da Luz, very close to where a previous matter had been reported, means that we are even more interested in this as part of the inquiry."
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 18, 2014, 11:28:53 PM
Imagine you pay a friend or relative to babysit your toddlers while you go out for a meal Then you discover babysitter is sitting down the local cafe drinking tea and yacking and just popping back every 10 minutes to check ---- ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on June 18, 2014, 11:40:02 PM
Don't insult the GNR. I always had to accompany holiday makers and house owners to the GNR when there were break-ins so that they could obtain police affidavits so that they could make insurance claims. And they always came when there was a problem and did not ignore calls. I remember them even investigating some white powder someone put around the apartments.
Also, why would a holiday maker ignore and brush aside a break-in or an attempted assault on their children? Do you believe that anyone would continue their holiday knowing that someone had broken in their accommodation? Don't be silly. This is such a ridiculous idea. Unbelievable.
Happens all the time, hotels don't want to see cops clambering over their premises, its bad publicity. Tourists don't want the hassle of having to go and sit in a police station for hours while they could be on the beach. Who's going to waste all those rays for a few quid? Its all a matter of degrees!
In any event, back to my main point, the PJ may not be aware of the minor robberies like the one which allegedly occurred in Odiáxere on the night that Madeleine disappeared as they don't need to know...the GNR deal with them.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2014, 02:52:45 AM
IMO a notice stuck on wall inside every apartment like this would have been good:
"Please check that the lock button is pressed on windows before leaving apartment"
Why? Because not doing it allows window and shutter to be opened without force from outside.
For guests unaware (prior to disappearance) of this, see statements of RO, KM, GM.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 19, 2014, 03:01:09 AM
Do you go on holiday to a foreign country and leave your windows and doors open?
Or would you be more cautious as it's not an area you're used to?
Do you go out for the evening where you currently live and leave your windows and doors open or do you close and lock them to prevent burglaries?
If I was in their other resorts before and it all felt safe and if my friends and friends of friends etc also went to their resorts worldwide and it was always safe ( I am seeing this daily on Facebook, people go to different holidays worldwide and have a good time) nobody thinks about the security. They assume this is organised by the hotel people. Now, if Mark Warner knew the resort had so many break ins and attacks they should make their guests aware of this. People would be more careful. Instead, they give them brochures presenting it as a heaven on earth and keep quiet about the crime events. This is wrong! Well, now the whole world knows about the attacks and about the break ins anyway....
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on June 19, 2014, 05:53:10 AM
An in-apartment child-sitting service was available at Mark Warner PDL. And not some member of staff you and your kid don't know. The same nannies who you trusted your kid to in the day were available for in-apartment child-sitting. It was about 15 euros an hour IIRC ?
I wouldn't dream of allowing someone who was a total stranger to my family until I had met them that day - to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children - no matter how nice they seemed to be or what their job was.
A creche environment is a completely different scenario - there's no comparison IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: colombosstogey on June 19, 2014, 06:18:51 AM
McCanns left Madeleine because they were copying the 'listening service' which Mark Warner advertised in their booklet and was performing as a service on regular basis in many of their resorts.
1000s of parents left their children sleeping alone in their rooms in Mark Warner resorts all over the world and Mark Warner staff would go round ( same as the Tapas group did) and would 'listen' to these left alone children.
When McCanns arrived in Portugal they were told Ocean Club has no listening service but they weren't told there were many burglaries in the surrounding apartments.
If they were told to be careful and that the apartments are being broken into the McCanns would never leave their children alone.. they simply thought this was safe thing to to.. as it was being done in other Mark Warner resorts.
I read at the beginning that people were warned that there had been burglaries.
Anyway, anyone with a half a brain of a gnat would never leave children alone unattended in an APARTMENT on the edge of complex by a busy road.
AND GROUND FLOOR TOO.
Jeez.
I would have as a matter of course locked up my valuables and taken my children with me to dinner.
I lived abroad, and holidayed abroad, it IS COMMON for holiday complexes to be targeted for theft, and its usually the people on holiday stealing not the locals.
When we were in Corfu, 2 of the young men on one of those groups got caught robbing stuff out of rooms instead of going off on a trip.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2014, 08:43:04 AM
Ah, that'll be it then. It was holiday makers doing the burglaries and sexual assaults. They probably kept the keys from their last holiday.
But this does not excuse Warner Holidays or The Ocean Club. Why were there not at least CCTV Cameras?
Oh, I know. The Locals and The Expats wouldn't have liked that.
That resort seems to have been run entirely for the benefit of the regular inhabitants.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 19, 2014, 08:52:41 AM
Were all the Warner holidaymakers accommodated in the same apartment block, or were they spread over a wider area? I seem to recall that they didn't own some of the properties. Did they have any within the boundary of their facilities?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 19, 2014, 02:35:02 PM
I think The complex did have safeguards and their customers health and safety would have sufficient, other wise why would Doctors take risks with their children.
And this is something to think about: everyone in the NHS, especially DOCTORS, must risk assess, their staff training needs, equipment, their working environment and patients risks before treatments.
Those parents chose to leave the children alone at night-even when Little Maddie mentioned (allegedly) that she and her brother had woke up and no one was there.
I honestly-when I read that had tears in my eyes. Their daughter was afraid, not only for her self but for her little brother- this is a 3 year old!- if she did wander outside she couldn't ask for help as she didn't speak the language or wasn't familiar with her surroundings. Think back to when you were her age... Monsters in the wardrope-
...but still they left the children alone. And father Gerry gave a curious mention about 'feeling' someone was in the room. Did he walk in and challenge-go get help- no he walked out and left them with out so much as a second glance.
I do not believe Warner company played any part in that scenario, and couldn't be held responsible for little Maddie's disappearance.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2014, 02:42:33 PM
I think The complex did have safeguards and their customers health and safety would have sufficient, other wise why would Doctors take risks with their children.
And this is something to think about: everyone in the NHS, especially DOCTORS, must risk assess, their staff training needs, equipment, their working environment and patients risks before treatments.
Those parents chose to leave the children alone at night-even when Little Maddie mentioned (allegedly) that she and her brother had woke up and no one was there.
I honestly-when I read that had tears in my eyes. Their daughter was afraid, not only for her self but for her little brother- this is a 3 year old!- if she did wander outside she couldn't ask for help as she didn't speak the language or wasn't familiar with her surroundings. Think back to when you were her age... Monsters in the wardrope-
...but still they left the children alone. And father Gerry gave a curious mention about 'feeling' someone was in the room. Did he walk in and challenge-go get help- no he walked out and left them with out so much as a second glance.
I do not believe Warner company played any part in that scenario, and couldn't be held responsible for little Maddie's disappearance.
There is no point in attempting to answer this post as it is just forum myths and twisted gossip.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 19, 2014, 03:08:48 PM
Forum myths?
I don't do myths.
You have no reply because it hurts to think about it- you don't want it to be true. I don't know if Maddie did say that to her mother, but her Mother certainly claimed she did!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2014, 03:24:32 PM
There is no point in attempting to answer this post as it is just forum myths and twisted gossip.
The bottom line still remains.
The mccanns were stupid an/or arrogant.
They were in a foreign country, with a language and customs they had a vague knowledge of, at best, and they chose to leave their children repeatedly in what they claimed were unlocked accommodation.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: colombosstogey on June 19, 2014, 03:26:37 PM
I think The complex did have safeguards and their customers health and safety would have sufficient, other wise why would Doctors take risks with their children.
And this is something to think about: everyone in the NHS, especially DOCTORS, must risk assess, their staff training needs, equipment, their working environment and patients risks before treatments.
Those parents chose to leave the children alone at night-even when Little Maddie mentioned (allegedly) that she and her brother had woke up and no one was there.
I honestly-when I read that had tears in my eyes. Their daughter was afraid, not only for her self but for her little brother- this is a 3 year old!- if she did wander outside she couldn't ask for help as she didn't speak the language or wasn't familiar with her surroundings. Think back to when you were her age... Monsters in the wardrope-
...but still they left the children alone. And father Gerry gave a curious mention about 'feeling' someone was in the room. Did he walk in and challenge-go get help- no he walked out and left them with out so much as a second glance.
I do not believe Warner company played any part in that scenario, and couldn't be held responsible for little Maddie's disappearance.
BRILIANT post.
The apartment was privately owned with the use of the Warner Complex.
I cannot in all my life believe ANYONE would leave 3 children alone in an APARTMENT close to roads and swimming pool and STEEP steps.
No i dont think Warner Complex did anything wrong.
The family chose to leave their children. The Warner Complex in PDL did NOT ADVOCATE a listening service, surely the mere fact they CHOSE not to allow a listening service but offer A NIGHT CRECHE instead would give the holidaymakers a hint that the area was NOT SUITABLE for a listening service.
What gets my gall is the night creche was right there close by.
IF the families wanted to enjoy themselves without kids thats fine nothing wrong with that, but they could have either taken it in turns and had a meal sent in and sat outside on the balcony and slept the kids in one room for a few hours, or got 1 babysitter to have the children in one apartment or take the children to the creche, or take them for dinner.
I cannot understand why they bothered taking the children as it was creche nearly all day, and in the evening parents time.
Why not leave the kids at home with family and just have a week without them for a rest, I can understand that, doctors do work hard and need a break.
The evening schedule if followed every night like the 3rd was more likely to give anyone an ulcer lol and what was the point.
ALTHOUGH I dont think prior to the 3rd they did much checking to be honest even the waiters apparently said that in statements.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 19, 2014, 06:57:54 PM
I think The complex did have safeguards and their customers health and safety would have sufficient, other wise why would Doctors take risks with their children.
And this is something to think about: everyone in the NHS, especially DOCTORS, must risk assess, their staff training needs, equipment, their working environment and patients risks before treatments.
Those parents chose to leave the children alone at night-even when Little Maddie mentioned (allegedly) that she and her brother had woke up and no one was there.
I honestly-when I read that had tears in my eyes. Their daughter was afraid, not only for her self but for her little brother- this is a 3 year old!- if she did wander outside she couldn't ask for help as she didn't speak the language or wasn't familiar with her surroundings. Think back to when you were her age... Monsters in the wardrope-
...but still they left the children alone. And father Gerry gave a curious mention about 'feeling' someone was in the room. Did he walk in and challenge-go get help- no he walked out and left them with out so much as a second glance.
I do not believe Warner company played any part in that scenario, and couldn't be held responsible for little Maddie's disappearance.
the mccanns would have done a risk assessment...even unconsciously. I remember reading early on they felt that PDL was one of those seaside resorts from the fifties ...quiet and safe... I think its a disgrace the burglaries were supressed...I think maddie would be here today if MW had told the truth..they have a lot to answer for
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 19, 2014, 07:37:30 PM
the mccanns would have done a risk assessment...even unconsciously. I remember reading early on they felt that PDL was one of those seaside resorts from the fifties ...quiet and safe... I think its a disgrace the burglaries were supressed...I think maddie would be here today if MW had told the truth..they have a lot to answer for
Pleaaassssse... Even their own daughter informing them that she and her brother cried all alone the previous night did not change their habit of leaving the kids alone. And any sane person with two working brain cells knows that in the touristic resort a burglary is ALWAYS a risk. Don't tell me the McCanns did not know that.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2014, 07:42:39 PM
the mccanns would have done a risk assessment...even unconsciously. I remember reading early on they felt that PDL was one of those seaside resorts from the fifties ...quiet and safe... I think its a disgrace the burglaries were supressed...I think maddie would be here today if MW had told the truth..they have a lot to answer for
Since when would it be logical or commonsense to leave children unattended in a foreign country in unlocked accommodation ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 19, 2014, 08:40:36 PM
Im sure you all agree taht the risk of stranger abduction was infinitesimally small
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 19, 2014, 08:45:03 PM
i am not asking about a fatal accident. I am asking about an accident generally. The risk of that was much higher than the risk of the stranger abduction. What prevented the McCanns from assesing the accident/wandering away risk properly and deciding it was not safe to leave the children alone in the unlocked flat?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 19, 2014, 09:08:37 PM
i am not asking about a fatal accident. I am asking about an accident generally. The risk of that was much higher than the risk of the stranger abduction. What prevented the McCanns from assesing the accident/wandering away risk properly and deciding it was not safe to leave the children alone in the unlocked flat?
it seemed safe..hindsight is a wonderful thing...no child has been seriously injured in 50 yrs of butlins style baby listening
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 19, 2014, 09:12:37 PM
it seemed safe..hindsight is a wonderful thing...no child has been seriously injured in 50 yrs of butlins style baby listening
One of the terms of the listening service is that the apartment must be locked. BTW. please provide some evidence to support your claim about no accidents happening.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2014, 09:44:27 PM
An abductor who cased the joint the night before and left a mysterious brown stain on the scared crying defenceless child. Not important enough for the parents to leave them alone again for the abduction night which has already been set up in case you missed it. But wait! Talk at the tapas table is one of great concern (not enough to stay in the apartment or even face the apartment) about the crying episode and concerns of leaving that door open so anybody could enter. So Mr Abductor thought he would come back through the door that was always left open and started playing games by hiding in the apartment on their checks and moving doors and opening a window that wasn't used to confuse the McCanns. And if you believe that you will believe anything.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2014, 09:56:26 PM
There was this quote I believe that one or both McCanns said "they had been watching us for days". How did they know? if they knew the joint was being cased for what they suspected were nefarious reasons why did they leave the kids on their own with the door open.
That's easy - they obviously did not think that at the time, only in retrospect. You know what they meant, don't pretend otherwise.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 19, 2014, 10:04:50 PM
There was this quote I believe that one or both McCanns said "they had been watching us for days". How did they know? if they knew the joint was being cased for what they suspected were nefarious reasons why did they leave the kids on their own with the door open.
5:52
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on June 20, 2014, 12:17:59 AM
Crèche workers complained about the number of strangers wandering around the Block 4/5 gardens and pool area during the day but again nothing was done about it. Obviously the need to pull in the Euros from the casual visitor to the pool bar was more important than the security of guests and their children. It is quite astounding that given the break-ins, security was not afforded any priority in such a sprawling complex.
Ocean Club Resort were the owners of the resort and had ultimate responsibility for security but I don't recall seeing any statements from their management in relation to events on and before the 3rd May 2007. There appeared to be a very lax attitude to security, a three-year-old child is reported missing from an apartment in the dark and all main reception could initially do is suggest they try looking for her?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 12:34:30 AM
Crèche workers complained about the number of strangers wandering around the Block 4/5 gardens and pool area during the day but again nothing was done about it. Obviously the need to pull in the Euros from the casual visitor to the pool bar was more important than the security of guests and their children. It is quite astounding that given the break-ins, security was not afforded any priority in such a sprawling complex.
Ocean Club Resort were the owners of the resort and had ultimate responsibility for security but I don't recall seeing any statements from their management in relation to events on and before the 3rd May 2007. There appeared to be a very lax attitude to security, a three-year-old child is reported missing from an apartment in the dark and all main reception could initially do is suggest they try looking for her?
I thought they had a protocol in place for the cases when a child goes missing and they applied it. Somehow it seemed they deliberately avoided calling police the first time when Matthew Oldfield was sent to the reception to call the police. It seems they enforced their child missing protocol first.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 20, 2014, 12:50:47 AM
I thought they had a protocol in place for the cases when a child goes missing and they applied it. Somehow it seemed they deliberately avoided calling police the first time when Matthew Oldfield was sent to the reception to call the police. It seems they enforced their child missing protocol first.
Somehow no Ocean Staff workers mention Oldifield coming to the reception that day. According to the receptionist, Helder Luis, the person who contacted him first was not Oldfield, but a staff member of the Tapas Bar:
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 12:55:09 AM
Somehow no Ocean Staff workers mention Oldifield coming to the reception that day. According to the receptionist, Helder Luis, the person who contacted him first was not Oldfield, but a staff member of the Tapas Bar:
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
I have no time to check it out now. I know from several sources that Matt Oldfield was sent to the reception. Are you suggesting that Matt Oldfield is lying? How strange with THREE police teams working on the case now and nobody arrested Matthew Oldfield for this obvious lie??? What would be your answer to that? A big conspiracy of SY and the new PJ teams deliberately protecting the McCanns and their friends?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 20, 2014, 12:58:12 AM
I have no time to check it out now. I know from several sources that Matt Oldfield was sent to the reception. Are you suggesting that Matt Oldfield is lying? How strange with THREE police teams working on the case now and nobody arrested Matthew Oldfield for this obvious lie??? What would be your answer to that? A big conspiracy of SY and the new PJ teams deliberately protecting the McCanns and their friends?
Don't change the topic. You claimed that the Ocean Club tried to dealy calling the police. I proved you otherwise.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 01:31:28 AM
Something more meritorical, maybe? A statement supporting your thesis the OC staff was delaying the phonecall to the police? Anything?
Matthew Oldfield rogatory 9 April 2008 i actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”. 4078 “Quite quick then?” Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn’t in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. - See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/the-first-searches-0304-may-2007/#sthash.doVrNACB.dpuf
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 02:22:23 AM
This is from a OC staff statement which proves that they started their 'procedure' before the police arrived.. this is matching Matthew Oldfield account..
Leanne Danielle Wagstaff, Nanny in the Baby Club, Mini Club and Toddlers1/2
On 3rd May at about 22.20 she was informed by her colleague Amy Tierney that Madeleine had disappeared, a fact which led to the initiation of the “Missing Child” procedure which consists of dividing various areas of the resort up between different employees in order to proceed in the search for the missing child.
Accordingly, she explains that at about 22.25 this procedure was begun with the resort being divided into three separate areas, the northern zone, the central zone (the rest of the resort area) and all the paths and roads that made up the resort and ended in P da L. For this purpose the witness mobilised and initiated the procedure with 5 employees from the resort who, in turn, were helped by different individuals (other employees, tourists, residents) during the search.
Later, she is not sure at what time, the local police arrived at the resort, took stock of the incident and began the respective measures for this type of situation.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 20, 2014, 02:37:13 AM
This is from a OC staff statement which proves that they started their 'procedure' before the police arrived.. this is matching Matthew Oldfield account..
And what were they supposed to do? Stand there and do nothing? You blame them for searching? Seriously?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2014, 03:14:46 AM
Had any of the group ever actually used a listening service at any MW resort anywhere?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 21, 2014, 03:36:12 AM
Had any of the group ever actually used a listening service at any MW resort anywhere?
Of course they have. The group of McCanns friend reportedly used it in Greece. I've seen an article many years ago discussing the 'listening service' that 1000s if British families use at holiday resorts abroad. Just google it, many posts about this on mumsnet
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2014, 03:53:13 AM
Of course they have. The group of McCanns friend reportedly used it in Greece. I've seen an article many years ago discussing the 'listening service' that 1000s if British families use at holiday resorts abroad.
I see a lot of blaming the holiday company here which I think is unfair, so I am checking what the actual truth is. Just curious to know which individuals of this group had themselves ever used an MW listening service anywhere?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2014, 01:29:17 PM
Another question. The 2006 Greece trip some of this group went on. Which Mark Warner resort was it?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 21, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
I suppose if you had a child that didn't settle and cried a lot, a listening service would be getting in touch all the time.
Yes, and I think listening services now have two way radios. BTW sorry, my post you replied to, it looked like it was me talking, but it was actually a quote from one of the rogatory statements.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2014, 10:07:58 PM
The vacation of three of these four couples to Greece in 2006 was definitely not to a Mark Warner resort at all
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2014, 10:21:52 PM
Actually I am withdrawing that post of mine which you responded to, as it may be wrong. However I am completely sure that the shared 2006 vacation of three of these couples to Greece was to a resort nothing to do with MW, it was a resort owned by a different company.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 21, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
Actually I am withdrawing that post of mine which you responded to, as it may be wrong. However I am completely sure that the shared 2006 vacation of three of these couples to Greece was to a resort nothing to do with MW, it was a resort owned by a different company.
Russell O'Brien statement:
The deponent clarifies that, when they were on holiday in Greece via a booking with Markwarner, they verified that they had available a type of service called “baby listening”, clarifying that it consisted of leaving the children asleep, at home, while the parents went out to dinner, with the checking of the children carried out by nannies, who would listen close to the room windows, to hear if the children were crying, immediately informing the parents, if there was a problem. He explains that Markwarner makes this service available in Greece, but that in Portugal it is not—a fact that they came to know when they made their bookings. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2014, 11:29:33 PM
Yes ROB and JT are the only couple who I could find indication had actually used a MW listening service.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 22, 2014, 12:35:24 AM
Yes ROB and JT are the only couple who I could find indication had actually used a MW listening service.
Have you red the rest of his statement? They all hoped for the same service in Portugal, it was advertised but after they booked their holiday they were told this service doesn't exist in Portugal. Instead they had a free creche and a 15 EURO per hour baby sitting service.
I've read somewhere in the papers back in 2007 that McCanns even got some refund because it was wrongly advertised that Ocean Club had listening service.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 22, 2014, 12:58:26 AM
Have you red the rest of his statement? They all hoped for the same service in Portugal, it was advertised but after they booked their holiday they were told this service doesn't exist in Portugal. Instead they had a free creche and a 15 EURO per hour baby sitting service.
Can I ask where did you find that info about the babysitter fees? Annnnd somehow I don't believe that spending these additional 150 pounds would ruin the McCanns.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 22, 2014, 01:03:32 AM
Can I ask where did you find that info about the babysitter fees? Annnnd somehow I don't believe that spending these additional 150 pounds would ruin the McCanns.
Russell O'Brien's statement, link posted above
Quote
The deponent clarifies that, when they were on holiday in Greece via a booking with Markwarner, they verified that they had available a type of service called 'baby listening', clarifying that it consisted of leaving the children asleep, at home, while the parents went out to dinner, with the checking of the children carried out by nannies, who would listen close to the room windows, to hear if the children were crying, immediately informing the parents, if there was a problem. He explains that Markwarner makes this service available in Greece, but that in Portugal it is not; a fact that they came to know when they made their bookings. In the Luz Ocean Club, a baby-sitter service is offered so that the adults can dine. This service is free. However, the children do not stay at home, but in the creche installations. The nanny service costs around 15 euros per hour and functions until 01H00. In this case, they opted for a type of vigilance of the children like that they experienced in Greece. They thought that, given the number of adults present, it would be easy to carry out. Sporadically, when someone would get up, they would offer to go and listen for other couple's children, next to the window of their rooms. Questioned, the deponent clarifies that the Payne couple did not get up as they had a baby monitor on the table, that they considered sufficient and did not consider is necessary to personally check on the children.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 22, 2014, 01:10:41 AM
Thank you, Vixte. I still think 150 -200 pounds spent on nanny would not ruin the McCanns.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 22, 2014, 01:13:31 AM
Especially if they were told there are break ins and attacks on children in the area.
Because the good ole' common sense is not enough. How comes that leaving the apartment each morning Gerald locked it carefully? How comes that he left it open when there was something much more precious than money or jewelery - his children?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2014, 03:51:52 AM
The main thing is, there was a clear warning sticker on the 5A lounge balcony door, warning to ensure that children are not allowed access to balcony without supervision, and not permitted to climb on balcony furniture.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2014, 03:58:17 AM
Re the 2006 shared holiday by 3 of these 4 couples to a holiday resort in Greece: anyone know what holiday company's resort that was please? (in the rogatory statements it says it wasn't Mark Warner).
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: valeria on June 22, 2014, 11:23:53 AM
Re the 2006 shared holiday by 3 of these 4 couples to a holiday resort in Greece: anyone know what holiday company's resort that was please? (in the rogatory statements it says it wasn't Mark Warner).
IIRC 3 couples were on holiday in Lemnos island. As far as i know there is a Mark warner resort there since many years. However i dont know if they had booked this.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2014, 09:15:11 PM
IIRC 3 couples were on holiday in Lemnos island. As far as i know there is a Mark warner resort there since many years. However i dont know if they had booked this.
Many people seem to have been hypnotised into thinking that the 2006 Greek holiday shared by these adults DP FP MO RO JT ROB and their kids was to a Mark Warner resort. It wasn't. It was to a small resort in Greece owned by a different company and nothing to do with Mark Warner at all. Here is proof: FP rogatory interview 2008 “... the idea had first come about really back in the previous year. I’d been on holiday with Dave and our children, with Matt and Rachael and their child ..., , and Russ and Jane and their two children and we’d been to Greece for a week. It wasn’t a Mark Warner, it was, erm, I can’t remember which company it was with ..."
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 22, 2014, 11:32:18 PM
Many people seem to have been hypnotised into thinking that the 2006 Greek holiday shared by these adults DP FP MO RO JT ROB and their kids was to a Mark Warner resort. It wasn't. It was to a small resort in Greece owned by a different company and nothing to do with Mark Warner at all. Here is proof: FP rogatory interview 2008 “... the idea had first come about really back in the previous year. I’d been on holiday with Dave and our children, with Matt and Rachael and their child ..., , and Russ and Jane and their two children and we’d been to Greece for a week. It wasn’t a Mark Warner, it was, erm, I can’t remember which company it was with ..."
The deponent clarifies that, when they were on holiday in Greece via a booking with Markwarner, they verified that they had available a type of service called “baby listening”, clarifying that it consisted of leaving the children asleep, at home, while the parents went out to dinner, with the checking of the children carried out by nannies, who would listen close to the room windows, to hear if the children were crying, immediately informing the parents, if there was a problem. He explains that Markwarner makes this service available in Greece, but that in Portugal it is not—a fact that they came to know when they made their bookings. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 22, 2014, 11:47:02 PM
The deponent clarifies that, when they were on holiday in Greece via a booking with Markwarner, they verified that they had available a type of service called “baby listening”, clarifying that it consisted of leaving the children asleep, at home, while the parents went out to dinner, with the checking of the children carried out by nannies, who would listen close to the room windows, to hear if the children were crying, immediately informing the parents, if there was a problem. He explains that Markwarner makes this service available in Greece, but that in Portugal it is not—a fact that they came to know when they made their bookings. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
Though Russel never says it were the holidays in 2006.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 12:18:24 AM
The 2006 holiday which three of these couples spent together Greece in 2006 was not to an MW resort
"we all as a group, except Gerry and Kate, went on holiday in September 2006 to Greece ... ... our September holiday in Greece in 2006 ... it wasn’t Mark Warner" SOURCE: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id253.html
"I think the idea had first come about really back in the previous year. I’d been on holiday with Dave, and our children, with Matt and Rachael and their child, Grace, and Russ and Jane and their two children and we’d been to Greece for a week. It wasn’t a Mark Warner, it was, I can’t remember which company it was with" SOURCE: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id252.html
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
The deponent clarifies that, when they were on holiday in Greece via a booking with Markwarner, they verified that they had available a type of service called “baby listening”, clarifying that it consisted of leaving the children asleep, at home, while the parents went out to dinner, with the checking of the children carried out by nannies, who would listen close to the room windows, to hear if the children were crying, immediately informing the parents, if there was a problem. He explains that Markwarner makes this service available in Greece, but that in Portugal it is not—a fact that they came to know when they made their bookings. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
What you posted refers to a 2005 holiday which did not include any of the other couples. It does not refer to the 2006 shared holiday.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 23, 2014, 12:47:13 AM
What you posted refers to a 2005 holiday which did not include any of the other couples. It does not refer to the 2006 shared holiday.
Listening service is present in almost any luxury holiday resort in the world which British people visit. But there O'Brien explained the idea and why they did it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 01:08:29 AM
Listening service is present in almost any luxury holiday resort in the world which British people visit. But there O'Brien explained the idea and why they did it.
I was just pointing out that 2006 holiday of 3 of these families together to Greece was to a non-MW resort. I gave the sources: the rogatory interviews of two people who were actually on that trip. It is perfectly acceptable, nothing wrong with it at all, the witnesses are honest.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 23, 2014, 01:16:17 AM
I was just pointing out that 2006 holiday of 3 of these families together to Greece was to a non-MW resort. I gave the sources: the rogatory interviews of two people who were actually on that trip. It is perfectly acceptable, nothing wrong with it at all, the witnesses are honest.
Why is that important, that the 2006 resort wasn't the Mark Warner one?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 01:40:35 PM
...1000s of parents left their children sleeping alone in their rooms in Mark Warner resorts all over the world and Mark Warner staff would go round ( same as the Tapas group did) and would 'listen' to these left alone children.
Do you know what was the checking interval of the listening service at those MW resorts? How many minutes exactly? Here is one estimate:
Reply: "...we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resorts but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn’t offer that service…” 1485 ”Yeah, and over what frequency did you understand that they would have done the listening service?” Reply ”I mean in, at the other resorts that we’ve been to I believe they do it every thirty minutes you know as I say we actually haven’t used that service when we’ve been but you know the friends who have they’ve, they’ve said it’s around thirty minutes.
(Source: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html )
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 02:00:56 PM
Here are accounts of the checking interval by two people who actually used the listening service at an mw resort:
"The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you. We were called twice, and both times they had obviously heard him as soon as he woke up, as by the time we got to him he hadn't really noticed that we weren't in the room."
"Baby listening service worked well, they really do check your door every 15 mins, and come and get you from dinner/bar."
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 23, 2014, 03:40:01 PM
Oh now we are talking in minutes.
The bottom line: OC is an open resort. PDL was struck with crime, break ins and attacks on children. Mark Warner kept this secret from their guests. Just because they can then call the resort luxury and keep the prices high.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 04:17:07 PM
Precisely. 15 minutes was the checking interval of the professional listening service at mw resorts. "they really do check your door every 15 mins" (see link above)
The bottom line: OC is an open resort. PDL was struck with crime, break ins and attacks on children. Mark Warner kept this secret from their guests. Just because they can then call the resort luxury and keep the prices high.
I have already shown that the MW listening service in Lemnos had a 15 minute checking interval (not 30 minutes). Also that the 2006 shared 3-couple holiday to Greece was not to an MW resort at all (proof in 2 rogs linked above). If no-one is disputing that, then yes let's discuss your other allegation, re burglary etc risk.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Luz on June 24, 2014, 03:46:44 PM
The holiday Company who placed the tapas group in block 5 of the Ocean Club Gardens complex was Mark Warner Holidays. They had a duty of care towards their guests which by all counts they failed to deliver in respect of Madeleine McCann.
Information gleamed since Madeline's disappearance confirms that there were was a history of burglaries and attempted break-ins at the complex which Mark Warner management were aware of yet apparently saw fit to inform their guests or provide appropriate security after dark.
I am afraid you are totally misinformed both by NSY and by the UK Media. There were no burglaries REPORTED in those apartments. Portraying that village as a place of every type of villanies is nothing but an attempt to excuse the inexcusable behaviour of the McCann making their daughter disappear and obstructing the portuguese search for her and for the truth.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2014, 03:56:43 PM
I am afraid you are totally misinformed both by NSY and by the UK Media. There were no burglaries REPORTED in those apartments. Portraying that village as a place of every type of villanies is nothing but an attempt to excuse the inexcusable behaviour of the McCann making their daughter disappear and obstructing the portuguese search for her and for the truth.
So Mrs. Fenn was lying?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2014, 04:03:37 PM
At most only one of the couples had ever actually themselves used an MW listening service anywhere.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2014, 04:15:26 PM
Where MW Lemnos is specifically mentioned in the files that trip was actually 2005 and one couple only and they observed but didn't use the listening service.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 08:20:04 PM
San Agostino (sp?) was the MW Greek resort
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 08:25:14 PM
It does get a little difficult splitting MW and OC. I actually they BOTH had a duty of care. . Certainly Silvia Batista will say there was a book with a list of incidences but that book was not on display for all to see. If you are a MW guest you tend to visit the 24 hour reception less than other guests in my experience.
Do not forget that a guest (Amanda Mills) reported to OC 24 hour reception that a man had attempted to steal a buggy without even checking if their was a child in it! OC did nothing with that information. Im not even sure if they even let MW staff know of the incident.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 08:35:42 PM
Leaving the children unattended is never safe, no matter the rate of criminality. The McCanns as the doctors should be very much aware of it, as such children very often end up in the hospital.
Yep, sure accidents can happen and they certainly made a mistake. A mistake that 1000s of other parents also made. I would hazard a guess that at least 20% of all MW guests there were doing the same thing. You see other MW resorts have the listening service where the Nannies walk around listening and then send a message to the restaurant to say a child is crying. In San Agostino, some of the rooms were over 1000 metres away. They may well claim its safer as its an enclosed resort but the gates were open and anyone could walk in so that not quite the case really. Health & safety would assess it as safer not realising those gates are open and unmanned. There is also access directly from the beach which obviously they cannot secure. They don't enter they get the parents. So in fact the McCanns were doing very similar but in fact their checks were slightly better with regard to entering and checking the kids...bar one of their friends.
Health and safety may well claim that San Agostino would have been
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 08:41:52 PM
I am afraid you are totally misinformed both by NSY and by the UK Media. There were no burglaries REPORTED in those apartments. Portraying that village as a place of every type of villanies is nothing but an attempt to excuse the inexcusable behaviour of the McCann making their daughter disappear and obstructing the portuguese search for her and for the truth.
There were burglaries reported to OC. I believe Silvia batista confirmed that in a radio interview. There was also a stabbing on the beach. One of the residents also stated that holidaymakers were generally targeted towards the end of the week that way they were less likely to report it to the police due to the hassle
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 08:47:01 PM
Welcome to the forum. What was the checking interval at MW child listening service at san agostino ?
If I'm honest I cant remember as I went in 2004. I wouldn't be sure that it could be every 15 minutes though as the area they have to cover is huge and I don't remember there being that many staff on of an evening. Sorry I cant be of more help on that front...we didn't use the service
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2014, 09:26:48 PM
If I'm honest I cant remember as I went in 2004. I wouldn't be sure that it could be every 15 minutes though as the area they have to cover is huge and I don't remember there being that many staff on of an evening. Sorry I cant be of more help on that front...we didn't use the service
Thanks. I found this on mumsnet about MW san agostino listening service in 2003 "staff patrol every 15 mins"
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 09:30:03 PM
Thanks. I found this on mumsnet about MW san agostino listening service in 2003 "staff patrol every 15 mins"
I think that might be an approximation don't you? it's a large site...they can't be that precise. What happens if they come across three or four rooms on the trot where kids are crying? could be right, who knows?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 09:31:08 PM
Thanks. I found this on mumsnet about MW san agostino listening service in 2003 "staff patrol every 15 mins"
Why is that so important to you? what is the point you are trying to make?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 24, 2014, 09:33:35 PM
The service that MW offered ( though not at PDL) checked on children twice as often as the Tapas group claimed they did, so could not be said to be exactly comparable.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 09:48:49 PM
The service that MW offered ( though not at PDL) checked on children twice as often as the Tapas group claimed they did, so could not be said to be exactly comparable.
I see. Okay I guess if you want to be picky then its not identical. As I said myself, the bungalows in San agostino were much much further away than 5a to the Tapas.
I think it would be natural to compare them though if you have been to a MW resort previously. You would expect there to be identical services at both...i.e. baby listening. I know I certainly did. I was shocked to find out that you had to go along and sign your older children in at PDL where as in San agostino you didn't...the kids just rocked up to the clubs themselves.
I think you have to be in the mind set of someone who expected there to be baby listening and that no abduction had taken place there and it was a sleepy little fishing village.
Hindsight is a marvellous thing. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 24, 2014, 09:52:37 PM
As someone who would never contemplate taking a holiday in such a resort, I couldn't comment on users expectations.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 24, 2014, 09:58:39 PM
Precisely. The MW system has checks every 15mins, with radios, and no drinking allowed. Only one couple of the group had ever themselves used an MW listening system anywhere. The 3 couple trip in 2006 was definitely not even to a MW resort. I never would have posted all this if it hadn't been for the attempts by some peeps to shift guilt onto an innocent holiday company.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 25, 2014, 12:10:56 AM
Precisely. The MW system has checks every 15mins, with radios, and no drinking allowed. Only one couple of the group had ever themselves used an MW listening system anywhere. The 3 couple trip in 2006 was definitely not even to a MW resort. I never would have posted all this if it hadn't been for the unsavory attempts by some peeps to shift guilt onto an innocent holiday company.
I asked you and you never replied, so asking again: Why is so important that only one couple used MW listening service abroad? And where this concrete conclusion came from so you are claiming it a true fact?
For your information, listening service is not a big deal only reserved only for Mark Warner. It is being used for decades by many many resorts in the world serving British and other customers. It is used everywhere. Mark Warner has stopped using it but the other resorts are still using it all around the world. Have you ever been to a family hotel/holiday village/resort abroad????
And how do you know for a fact that a listening service is precisely done every 15 minutes? I can tell you, because I have used it myself that in fact depending on a hotel it is different, somewhere it is 15 minutes, in some places every 20 minutes, in others every half an hour. I repeat, listening service is still being used by many holidaying parents all around the world. I hope I have been clear!
As if this listening service saga goes on we might arrive to a calpol story which was all made up exactly the same way as this.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 12:40:24 AM
I asked you and you never replied, so asking again: Why is so important that only one couple used MW listening service abroad?
And where this concrete conclusion came from so you are claiming it a true fact?
For your information, listening service is not a big deal only reserved only for Mark Warner. It is being used for decades by many many resorts in the world serving British and other customers. It is used everywhere. Mark Warner has stopped using it but the other resorts are still using it all around the world. Have you ever been to a family hotel/holiday village/resort abroad????
And how do you know for a fact that a listening service is precisely done every 15 minutes? I can tell you, because I have used it myself that in fact depending on a hotel it is different, somewhere it is 15 minutes, in some places every 20 minutes, in others every half an hour. I repeat, listening service is still being used by many holidaying parents all around the world. I hope I have been clear! ...
The PR and the statements claim that the system implemented in PDL was based specifically on the MW listening service. Nowhere do any of them claim it was based on any other company's listening system do they?. I'm happy to agree with you that even if only one couple having ever themselves actually used an MW listening system is not anything to argue over at all. I make it very clear - the couples told the truth about whether on each holiday they actually themselves used, or did not use, the listening service, if you read their statements carefully and don't make assumptions. I got 95%+ of the info straight from their actual statements, I am saying they are telling the truth.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 25, 2014, 12:53:21 AM
The PR and the statements claim that the system improvised in PDL was based specifically on the MW listening service. Nowhere do any of them claim it was based on any other company's listening system do they?. I'm happy to agree with you that even if only one couple having ever themselves actually used an MW listening system is not anything to argue over at all. I make it very clear - the couples told the truth about whether on each holiday they actually themselves used, or did not use, the listening service, if you read their statements carefully and don't make assumptions. I got 95%+ of the info straight from their actual statements, I am saying they are telling the truth.
Before they decided to go on holiday to Portugal they received MW booklet. Inside the booklet it was wrongly claimed that Ocean Club too has a listening service. I remember reading in the first days of the case that they even received some small refund for this incorrect information which mislead them.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 01:11:15 AM
Before they decided to go on holiday to Portugal they received MW booklet. Inside the booklet it was wrongly claimed that Ocean Club too has a listening service.
I remember reading in the first days of the case that they even received some small refund for this incorrect information which mislead them.
"Mark Warner ... were going to discount the holiday by ten percent ... not long after we booked ... so I’d had correspondence ... you can knock us ten percent off as well ... they gave us some discount" (Source: DP rogatory)
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on June 25, 2014, 04:14:22 AM
There were burglaries reported to OC. I believe Silvia batista confirmed that in a radio interview. There was also a stabbing on the beach. One of the residents also stated that holidaymakers were generally targeted towards the end of the week that way they were less likely to report it to the police due to the hassle
Oh dear! Looks like Luz doesn't even know what was happening in her own village. Better keep those doors and windaes locked Luz. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 12:27:39 PM
I think it is reasonable to expect guests to lock windows before going out. However there is a peculiar psychological aspect to the setup at 5A and probably all apartments in that block. People who in UK would always check windows are locked in some way before going out, might not do so in an apartment with the 5A setup. And here is the psychological reason - subconsciously they think: "the exterior shutter is down, no-one can get in, so no need to check if window is locked in some way" (that is all subconscious, not conscious thought). Of course in fact "no-one can get in" is an assumption that is only true if the window is locked in some way.
To lock the window takes only a second - simply press the top button on the handle.
So I would suggest putting on every window of this type an adhesive sticker (similar to the balcony warning sticker you see in photos of lounge balcony door) with the text
"Before going out check the window is fully closed and the lock button (top button) is pressed in"
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 25, 2014, 12:35:25 PM
I think it is reasonable to expect guests to lock windows before going out. However there is a peculiar psychological aspect to the setup at 5A and probably all apartments in that block. People who in UK would always check windows are locked in some way before going out, might not do so in an apartment with the 5A setup. And here is the psychological reason - subconsciously they think: "the exterior shutter is down, no-one can get in, so no need to check if window is locked in some way" (that is all subconscious, not conscious thought). Of course in fact "no-one can get in" is an assumption that is only true if the window is locked in some way.
To lock the window takes only a second - simply press the top button on the handle.
So I would suggest putting on every window of this type an adhesive sticker (similar to the balcony warning sticker you see in photos of lounge balcony door) with the text
"Before going out ensure window is closed and the lock button (top button) is pressed in"
And you wouldn't add ' Due to a high number of the burglaries in the area....'
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2014, 12:37:44 PM
And you wouldn't add ' Due to a high number of the burglaries in the area....'
....and what did Clarence Mitchell say as regards the 'break-in' to the mccanns apartment ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Admin on June 25, 2014, 12:39:42 PM
My own observation is that it was only a matter of time before a burglary went wrong. Out of curiosity, was the sneak thief who entered Mrs Fenn's apartment ever caught?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 25, 2014, 12:45:10 PM
My own observation is that it was only a matter of time before a burglary went wrong. Out of curiosity, was the sneak thief who entered Mrs Fenn's apartment ever caught?
Not in so far as I have ever seen. This did happen shortly before The McCanns arrived, so I would have thought it would have been reported somewhere. But we were all relying on Portuguese Posters at the time. Now, we are not so daft.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 12:50:25 PM
And you wouldn't add ' Due to a high number of the burglaries in the area....'
I wouldn't add that to my suggested sticker.
The benefit of ensuring that the lock button on the window is pressed in, would be obvious to even the dimmest guest.
A guest is not going to read the sticker I suggested and think "oh look a sticker telling me to make sure the window is locked, I have no idea why on earth they tell me to do that, so I won't do it"
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 25, 2014, 12:58:41 PM
The benefit of ensuring that the lock button on the window is pressed in, would be obvious to even the dimmest guest.
A guest is not going to read the sticker I suggested and think "oh look a sticker telling me to make sure the window is locked, I have no idea why on earth they tell me to do that, so I won't do it"
This might have been a good idea. At least it would have suggested to The McCanns that the place wasn't safe. But I expect that Lessons have Been Learned. They sometimes are in hindsight.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 25, 2014, 12:58:52 PM
The benefit of ensuring that the lock button on the window is pressed in, would be obvious to even the dimmest guest.
A guest is not going to read the sticker I suggested and think "oh look a sticker telling me to make sure the window is locked, I have no idea why on earth they tell me to do that, so I won't do it"
a human being shouldnt need a sticker to know to lock up /look after their valubles its too bad they didnt in this case
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 03:15:58 PM
Before they decided to go on holiday to Portugal they received MW booklet. Inside the booklet it was wrongly claimed that Ocean Club too has a listening service. I remember reading in the first days of the case that they even received some small refund for this incorrect information which mislead them.
Are you claiming that the booklet they received before booking stated that a listening service was available in PDL? Again I rely on the truthfulness of the statements of the couples about this, I think they are telling the truth about this, I will check to see whether, or not, any of them make that specific claim.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 03:59:35 PM
Before they decided to go on holiday to Portugal they received MW booklet. Inside the booklet it was wrongly claimed that Ocean Club too has a listening service...
Ok have have checked the statements of the adults. None of them make the "inside the booklet it was wrongly claimed" allegation at all. So relying on their veraciousness, I conclude that the "misleading booklet" idea has no substance at all. What actually happened BTW is very simple: there was no misleading booklet at all, the person who made the booking "hadn’t really read the small print". (Source: rogatory interview 9th April 2008)
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2014, 04:01:30 PM
Just one of these little forum myths, you mean?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 04:38:32 PM
As I said, the adults, if one actually reads their statements, never claim there was any misleading booklet. They are telling the truth about the booking. If there was a misleading booklet they would have said so. Re where the myth originated, I don't know, obviously no competent lawyer or PR peep would ever create such a myth exactly opposite to what the truthful witnesses say, so maybe it's just lazy journalism
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 25, 2014, 07:31:25 PM
Ok have have checked the statements of the adults. None of them make the "inside the booklet it was wrongly claimed" allegation at all. So relying on their veraciousness, I conclude that the "misleading booklet" idea has no substance at all. What actually happened BTW is very simple: there was no misleading booklet at all, the person who made the booking "hadn’t really read the small print". (Source: rogatory interview 9th April 2008)
ignore error made
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 25, 2014, 07:35:13 PM
As I said, the adults, if one actually reads their statements, never claim there was any misleading booklet. They are telling the truth about the booking. If there was a misleading booklet they would have said so. Re where the myth originated, I don't know, obviously no competent lawyer or PR peep would ever create such a myth exactly opposite to what the truthful witnesses say, so maybe it's just lazy journalism
Its an assumption that is made. mark Warner holiday brochures have all that information in the back. Its a blanket statement about ALL MW resorts. There may well have been a small note about praia da luz but it must have been very small because I also missed it when booking. As I said before, PDL resort was very different in set up to other MWs....we didn't even realise it was an "open" resort.....not just MW guests. Very easily done.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2014, 07:38:23 PM
Its an assumption that is made. mark Warner holiday brochures have all that information in the back. Its a blanket statement about ALL MW resorts. There may well have been a small note about praia da luz but it must have been very small because I also missed it when booking. As I said before, PDL resort was very different in set up to other MWs....we didn't even realise it was an "open" resort.....not just MW guests. Very easily done.
Presumably you realised that once you had got there and adjusted your arrangements accordingly ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2014, 08:22:08 PM
Its an assumption that is made. mark Warner holiday brochures have all that information in the back. Its a blanket statement about ALL MW resorts. There may well have been a small note about praia da luz but it must have been very small because I also missed it when booking. As I said before, PDL resort was very different in set up to other MWs....we didn't even realise it was an "open" resort.....not just MW guests. Very easily done.
Yes, here in the words of an excellent witness is what happened in a nutshell "**** had chosen the resort and hadn’t really read the small print" Source: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id253.html - fairly near the top - or search the page for "really read"
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 26, 2014, 06:48:22 AM
That doesn't alter the fact that Mark Warner and The Ocean Club had a duty to inform clients that the place wasn't safe from Burglars and Preditors, even if only in a cursory way.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 26, 2014, 05:19:53 PM
That doesn't alter the fact that Mark Warner and The Ocean Club had a duty to inform clients that the place wasn't safe from Burglars and Preditors, even if only in a cursory way.
That doesn't alter the fact it were the McCanns that decided to leave their children unattended, out of their own free will, despite of having other options.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2014, 05:39:21 PM
Is anyone keeping a register of all those persons and organisations who have a share of the responsibility for the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? It seems to be an ever expanding list. Stick anyone on the list except the parents.
Perhaps we could use them to create a version of bullshit bingo.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2014, 06:24:34 PM
Is anyone keeping a register of all those persons and organisations who have a share of the responsibility for the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? It seems to be an ever expanding list. Stick anyone on the list except the parents.
The list does not expand. It is as it was on the 3rd May 2007. The difference is that crimes of which we were in ignorance are now very much in the public domain.
The last thing a holidaymaker expects in a small town advertising family holidays is the added presence of a paedophile who enters holiday homes to assault their children. We now know better.
We can see from Eamonn Holmes interview with Paul Luckman that people were in total denial even that burglaries were taking place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKx0ND1jBwA We now know better, and are bemused at a local editor who professes such ignorance of events in the small town covered by his newspaper.
In such a climate of denial where not even elementary precautions such as additional lighting or the installation of CCTV was considered appropriate it is hardly surprising that families were lulled into a false sense of security.
Given the level of unchecked and denied lawlessness and assaults on children we now know about, it was a matter of time before something more abominable happened to someone’s child.
The child it did happen to was Madeleine McCann.
Make no mistake about it the responsibility for this crime lies squarely with the perpetrator/s and those who by their inaction allowed the inevitable to happen.
If the people who did know about these events, or who should have known about these events obviously didn't expect a child to be kidnapped, how could holidaymakers be on their guard for something they had no warning about at all?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 26, 2014, 07:06:28 PM
If the people who did know about these events, or who should have known about these events obviously didn't expect a child to be kidnapped, how could holidaymakers be on their guard for something they had no warning about at all?
Lack of warning does not mean the holidaymakers can turn their brains off. And leaving the toddlers unattended is dangerous, paeophiles or not. The doctors should know that.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 26, 2014, 08:29:52 PM
That doesn't alter the fact that Mark Warner and The Ocean Club had a duty to inform clients that the place wasn't safe from Burglars and Preditors, even if only in a cursory way.
Absolutely. I think that was proven early on.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 26, 2014, 08:37:54 PM
Lack of warning does not mean the holidaymakers can turn their brains off. And leaving the toddlers unattended is dangerous, paeophiles or not. The doctors should know that.
They were stupid, as were many hundreds of thousands of other holiday makers over the years. It doesn't detract from the title of this thread which was asking if MW had a duty of care towards their guests. Quite simply they did have a duty of care.....hiding information about burglaries is not acceptable.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 26, 2014, 08:43:56 PM
They were stupid, as were many hundreds of thousands of other holiday makers over the years. It doesn't detract from the title of this thread which was asking if MW had a duty of care towards their guests. Quite simply they did have a duty of care.....hiding information about burglaries is not acceptable.
Hundreds of thousands left their children in unlocked apartments/residences ?
Do you have evidence for this ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2014, 08:46:13 PM
Lack of warning does not mean the holidaymakers can turn their brains off. And leaving the toddlers unattended is dangerous, paeophiles or not. The doctors should know that.
As I've said before ... I would appreciate if you are editing or abbreviating my posts that you state it ... just a matter of courtesy. To solve the problem, please don't do it at all.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 26, 2014, 08:51:16 PM
It wasn't me who used the argument that it was a common practice. It was you, surprise, surprise.
It was common practice to leave kids unattended in Butlins as it was in San Ag and PDL. I saw ppl do it in MW resorts and I don't think you would deny Butlins it was common place, So yes, it was common place as ive seen it with my own eyes. Does that clarify it for you.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 26, 2014, 09:54:18 PM
I wonder if any of the other members of tapas group left their doors unlocked, or was it only the ones who lost a child ?
Fiona Payne Rogatory:
1485 'The French doors'.
Reply 'They were always locked and secured'.
1485 'And locked'.
Reply 'And the front door was always locked and secured'.
1485
Jane Tanner rogatory:
Reply “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”
4078 “Yeah, that’s what her bed was. So Ella was in the bed and…” Reply “Ella was in her bed.”
4078 “And Evie was in the cot.” Reply “Evie was in the cot yeah.”
4078 “And what was, if you were to go in through the, well I know we’ve discussed this in the office and it’s difficult to say the front door or the back door of the apartment because there’s some confusion.” Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer as to what I was referring to?” Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “Which, which entrance did you use mostly?” Reply “For checking or for anything?”
4078 “For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?” Reply “Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. It was sort of like a, you know like patio doors have a…”
4078 “Yeah.” Reply “Thing that goes up and down.”
4078 “Oh right.” Reply “So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”
4078 “Okay, so when you went out for your meal…” Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.” Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
Rachael Oldfield rogatory:
1578 'But there were evenings during the holiday when both of you'' Reply 'Yes'.
1578 'Were out'' Reply 'Yeah'.
1578 'And Grace was in the apartment'' Reply 'Yeah'.
1578 'And when Grace was in the apartment, would you leave any access insecure'' Reply 'No, the patio doors were locked and the front door was double locked yeah'.
The answer for your question, Jassi, seems to be pretty clear.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 26, 2014, 11:21:48 PM
I find the statements of the McCs too confusing-throwing red herrings in whenever they get the chance.
Risk assessment how safe were the children? 1. if all doors are locked the children can't 'go wandering' if they wake up during adult drinking times 2. they also can't get out if there is a fire-can fires start whilst people are sleeping ? PR would dictate don't say the children were locked in.
3. If a door was left unlocked children can go wandering if they wake up to look for parents if ey are distressed in anyway. PR would dictate do not say the door was unlocked
So what has KATE offered with regards to Maddie being missing? she has suggested an abductor came in and out of a window using a (jemmie) both PR boxes are ticked in safe mode
this is discarded as a no started as there is no evidence of a window being jemmied.
Kate goes to another thesis; Someone from NW has a key and enters and leaves with a child. ok but why mention jemmied shutters?
No need for a key, because it transpires one door was left unlocked-for checking the children ok but why mention NW staff entering and leaving the apartment using a stolen key?
Kate claims she knew right away that Maddie did not wander- how did she know for sure? was the apartment locked? No The said the patio doors were not locked- so what else did Kate see that made her KNOW for sure that Maddie didn't wander out of that apartment?
MW played no part in the Missing childs fate: that is solely at the hands of the parents!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: VIXTE on June 27, 2014, 12:03:32 AM
That doesn't alter the fact that Mark Warner and The Ocean Club had a duty to inform clients that the place wasn't safe from Burglars and Preditors, even if only in a cursory way.
Yes, they failed to worn their guests about the break ins and attacks on children. Then Madeleine disappeared. Then it took another 7 years for the world to learn about the break ins and attacks on children, and in the mean time the new attacks happened.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 27, 2014, 01:39:09 AM
As I've said before ... I would appreciate if you are editing or abbreviating my posts that you state it ... just a matter of courtesy. To solve the problem, please don't do it at all.
Don't be silly.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 27, 2014, 08:44:28 AM
Yes, they failed to worn their guests about the break ins and attacks on children. Then Madeleine disappeared. Then it took another 7 years for the world to learn about the break ins and attacks on children, and in the mean time the new attacks happened.
That doesn't excuse leaving children in insecure accommodation does it ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2014, 09:06:41 AM
Reply 'And the front door was always locked and secured'.
1485
Jane Tanner rogatory:
Reply “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”
4078 “Yeah, that’s what her bed was. So Ella was in the bed and…” Reply “Ella was in her bed.”
4078 “And Evie was in the cot.” Reply “Evie was in the cot yeah.”
4078 “And what was, if you were to go in through the, well I know we’ve discussed this in the office and it’s difficult to say the front door or the back door of the apartment because there’s some confusion.” Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer as to what I was referring to?” Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “Which, which entrance did you use mostly?” Reply “For checking or for anything?”
4078 “For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?” Reply “Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. It was sort of like a, you know like patio doors have a…”
4078 “Yeah.” Reply “Thing that goes up and down.”
4078 “Oh right.” Reply “So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”
4078 “Okay, so when you went out for your meal…” Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.” Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
Rachael Oldfield rogatory:
1578 'But there were evenings during the holiday when both of you'' Reply 'Yes'.
1578 'Were out'' Reply 'Yeah'.
1578 'And Grace was in the apartment'' Reply 'Yeah'.
1578 'And when Grace was in the apartment, would you leave any access insecure'' Reply 'No, the patio doors were locked and the front door was double locked yeah'.
The answer for your question, Jassi, seems to be pretty clear.
That's a pretty comprehensive and conclusive answer. Thank you.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 27, 2014, 09:14:34 AM
So it would seem - like sensible holidaymakers would.
Now why didn't other people do that ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2014, 09:30:14 AM
It really does make you wonder. Seriously, what did they think they could possibly gain from it ? - 5 or 10 seconds saved on the journey?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on June 27, 2014, 09:41:08 AM
Anyone who thinks the McCanns are the only people in the world to have gone out leaving a door or window unlocked - either deliberately or by accident is being extremely unrealistic.
However it would seem that even 'locking up' did not always prevent burglaries or an intruder from gaining entrance - according to what we have been told.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2014, 09:51:01 AM
Anyone who thinks the McCanns are the only people in the world to have gone out leaving a door or window unlocked - either deliberately or by accident is being extremely unrealistic.
However it would seem that even 'locking up' did not always prevent burglaries or an intruder from gaining entrance - according to what we have been told.
If the McCanns had locked the place up we would have heard diatribes about locking children in.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 27, 2014, 09:52:03 AM
Anyone who thinks the McCanns are the only people in the world to have gone out leaving a door or window unlocked - either deliberately or by accident is being extremely unrealistic.
However it would seem that even 'locking up' did not always prevent burglaries or an intruder from gaining entrance - according to what we have been told.
It does not excuse it Benice, by the mccanns or anyone else.
As parents you keep your children as safe as possible.
No system is perfect, but you have to try and minimize the risks.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2014, 09:55:22 AM
I can see why they left the patio door unlocked. But I don't understand why The McCanns should be blamed because one of their children was abducted.
I am sorry to remind you Eleanor, but the nature of the Madeleine's disappearance has yet to be established.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2014, 10:32:05 AM
It's the police who need proof of a crime and so far they are not doing too well.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 27, 2014, 12:58:34 PM
Well here is another view of Mark Warner Holidays.
'
1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -
the McCanns chose not to use it.
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '
Comments welcome.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 27, 2014, 01:37:30 PM
Well here is another view of Mark Warner Holidays.
'
1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -
the McCanns chose not to use it.
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '
Comments welcome.
8@??)( all they clearly wanted was me time getting into their friends
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 27, 2014, 02:39:17 PM
Well here is another view of Mark Warner Holidays.
'
1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -
the McCanns chose not to use it.
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '
Comments welcome.
Very much to the point.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 27, 2014, 08:29:09 PM
Any answers to the points made on Mark Warner's dave ??? 8)-))) 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: misty on June 27, 2014, 08:42:45 PM
I totally agree that, in hindsight, they made some bad choices. The lack of evening child-care was not something they had anticipated, and £40-£50 per night for a sitter adds a lot to the cost of a holiday. The night creche was not a practical option. I'm also not sure if they were aware of the take-away option from the Tapas Bar. Mark Warner could not be held legally liable for what happened to the McCanns IMO because of the "reasonable care" aspect. You should exercise the same degree of care & responsibility, if not more, abroad as at home, , irrespective of how safe a place seems. ( April Jones & the Soham girls met their fates in sleepy villages) It does seem, however, to be quite difficult for new parents to immediately achieve a balanced sense of responsibility. People who have spent years at university & then in a controlled enviroment, such as a hospital, acquire a different set of life skills to the nightclub bouncer or policeman, and assess risk in a different manner. I do not condone what the group did on that holiday - it was all very adult-orientated = but would point out that the practice of "child listening" is NOT illegal & is still offered by many resorts including some in the UK. We all make bad choices - but most are not as catastrophic as Gerry & Kate's.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 27, 2014, 09:10:53 PM
quote Well here is another view of Mark Warner Holidays.
'
1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -
the McCanns chose not to use it.
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. 'Unquote
Comments welcome.
Excellent post Stephen thank you.
quote I totally agree that, in hindsight, they made some bad choices. The lack of evening child-care was not something they had anticipated, and £40-£50 per night for a sitter adds a lot to the cost of a holiday. The night creche was not a practical option. I'm also not sure if they were aware of the take-away option from the Tapas Bar. Mark Warner could not be held legally liable for what happened to the McCanns IMO because of the "reasonable care" aspect. You should exercise the same degree of care & responsibility, if not more, abroad as at home, , irrespective of how safe a place seems. ( April Jones & the Soham girls met their fates in sleepy villages) It does seem, however, to be quite difficult for new parents to immediately achieve a balanced sense of responsibility. People who have spent years at university & then in a controlled enviroment, such as a hospital, acquire a different set of life skills to the nightclub bouncer or policeman, and assess risk in a different manner. I do not condone what the group did on that holiday - it was all very adult-orientated = but would point out that the practice of "child listening" is NOT illegal & is still offered by many resorts including some in the UK. We all make bad choices - but most are not as catastrophic as Gerry & Kate's.unquote
Excellent reply.
This is WHAT a difference of opinion post should look like.
Those who troll here do not have a reply. just the usual...
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on June 27, 2014, 10:31:02 PM
I haven't read this whole thread (soz)....
To me the holiday company SHOULD have issued guests with a warning regarding breakins and attempted breakins. If they had I doubt that anyone would have used Baby monitors or checking systems. 8(8-)) 8(8-)) 8(8-))
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 27, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Anyone know cost of holiday plz?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 27, 2014, 11:13:33 PM
"Mark Warner had also advertised that they were going to discount the holiday by ten percent not long after we booked , which slightly irritated me, given the fact that we booked it ... so I’d had correspondence probably being a bit cheeky just to say ... you can knock us ten percent off as well ... they gave us some discount" Source: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html
Wouldn't that discount have easily completely covered the cost (at 15 euros/hour) of in-apartment child-sitting by nannies, for every night of the holiday?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2014, 11:19:57 PM
"Mark Warner had also advertised that they were going to discount the holiday by ten percent not long after we booked , which slightly irritated me, given the fact that we booked it ... so I’d had correspondence probably being a bit cheeky just to say ... you can knock us ten percent off as well ... they gave us some discount" Source: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html
Wouldn't that discount have easily completely covered the cost (at 15 euros/hour) of in-apartment child-sitting by nannies, for every night of the holiday?
perhaps its not as simple as posters think....in 50 years of butlins style baby listening..not one serious incident reported...
in 50 years how many children have been seriously assaulted and even died in registered nurseries
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 27, 2014, 11:24:41 PM
perhaps its not as simple as posters think....in 50 years of butlins style baby listening..not one serious incident reported...
in 50 years how many children have been seriously assaulted and even died in registered nurseries
Are you proposing that spending just a part of that discount, on in-apartment child-sitting by nannies they already knew and trusted, would have increased the risk to the children?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2014, 11:37:50 PM
Are you proposing that spending just a part of that discount, on in-apartment child-sitting by nannies they already knew and trusted, would have increased the risk to the children?
absolutely..
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 27, 2014, 11:41:32 PM
Are you proposing that spending just a part of that discount, on in-apartment child-sitting by nannies they already knew and trusted, would have increased the risk to the children?
We do NOT know for certain, just who would be doing the sitting. I personally would never have trusted a stranger on their own with my children.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Martina on June 27, 2014, 11:42:44 PM
Free nanny during the day - absolutely safe. The same nanny, but paid, and during the evening - OMG! OMG Danger!!!
Mindblowingly logical.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 27, 2014, 11:47:07 PM
another thing.
When the reception have a listening service, it depends on both the receptionists memory and on the number of guests she/he has lined up waiting to be attended to.
She will attend to the guests present first almost without doubt.
If a flight has just come in, there could be one hell of a delay before she does her listening.
THe mccanns far exceeded the normal listening. They went into the appartment, listened and looked.
And were only 50 metres away with a good view of the only open entrance, which was well lit.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 27, 2014, 11:55:20 PM
Free nanny during the day - absolutely safe. The same nanny, but paid, and during the evening - OMG! OMG Danger!!!
Mindblowingly logical.
Hardly free. Paid for in the package.
The difference being that there wes more than one nanny with the children in the day in a room that was not locked off. Also coming and going of people.
Totally different from one person, maybe a stranger, completely out of sight for several hours with your children. And there was No guarentee that it would be one of the nannies either.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 28, 2014, 02:12:05 AM
I would never consider a stranger babysitting my children....
The nannies who provided the in-apartment babysitting service (15 euros/hour) in the evenings were the same nannies who worked at the kidsclubs during the day.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 28, 2014, 02:21:11 AM
The nannies who provided the in-apartment babysitting service (15 euros/hour) in the evenings were the same nannies who worked at the kidsclubs during the day.
Yep but there was no guarantee that you would get one that knew your kids, nor even a nanny at all. There were a lot of guests with kids but not many nannies. I wouldn't even have liked a nanny alone with my kids in an appartment. Different in a place where there are more adults and free entrance to parents or other OC workers, as in the creches.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2014, 07:53:24 AM
none of anything else neither, so what do you think happened to Madeleine McCann carly ,be interesting to know what your opinion is seeing as you always dissing her parents
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 10:17:33 AM
The mccanns have probably proved their innocence...evidently its quite a simple thing to do
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2014, 10:18:41 AM
I don't suppose we could possibly keep On Topic, could we?
They had better and welcome to the team Eleanor. Any backchat just let me know.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on June 28, 2014, 02:17:52 PM
Thank You. Everyone, that is.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Moderator on June 28, 2014, 02:19:00 PM
This is neither the place nor the time to discuss last nights disgraceful shananagans and as for you David, eliciting sympathy on the basis of a false story about your wife was beneath contempt. Have you heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 02:29:54 PM
I feel MW were negligent in not warning their guests
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2014, 02:50:36 PM
I feel MW were negligent in not warning their guests
Pay attention davel.......................
1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -
the McCanns chose not to use it.
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 28, 2014, 03:45:56 PM
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '
sorry for not replying sooner..been out with the wife and children....yes Mw would have explained all the things on offer but they forgot to tell the mccanns about the services of the local burglars...I dint expect or care if you agree with me...I think MW were negligent
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2014, 04:09:03 PM
sorry for not replying sooner..been out with the wife and children....yes Mw would have explained all the things on offer but they forgot to tell the mccanns about the services of the local burglars...I dint expect or care if you agree with me...I think MW were negligent
The fundamental mistakes were made by the mccanns.
They were in a foreign country and did not have one iota of common sense.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 28, 2014, 06:35:31 PM
Yes and there was no minimum age - the Tapas restuarant even provided highchairs in the evenings so that children too young to be sat on normal chairs could eat there - kids as young as 11months ate evening meal there.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
Yes and there was no minimum age - the Tapas restuarant even had highchairs available in the evenings so that children too young to be sat on normal chairs could eat there.
That, is from my experience how European families come together for meals.
The children aren't trundled off to bed and ignored.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 08:09:10 PM
Just when I thought you couldn't type a more ridiculous comment. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
dave is a bit dim isnt he most 2 and 3 year olds are more then capable of eaing in a eating place dave must be of the old school thought that children should not be seen!!!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 28, 2014, 08:35:07 PM
young children ages 2 and 3 can get totally bored in restaurants
Perhaps you may wish to advise the family who took their 11-month-old child to eat with them to eat at Tapas evening 1st May and who then repeated that same act evening 2nd May, that exposing such a young child to the boredom of a family meal together two nights in a row was not a good idea?
And what do you think of another family, who not only took their under-one with them to a Tapas family meal evening 2nd May, but also employed the technique (which even the Spanish Inquisition never dared to employ), of asking for a highchair, so that the child would be restrained and unable to escape the boredom?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 28, 2014, 08:41:03 PM
Perhaps you may wish to advise the family who took their 11-month-old child to eat with them to eat at Tapas evening 1st May and who then repeated that same act evening 2nd May, that exposing such a young child to the boredom of a family meal together two nights in a row was not a good idea?
And what do you think of another family, who not only took their under-one with them to a Tapas family meal evening 2nd May, but also employed the technique (which even the Spanish Inquisition never dared to employ), of asking for a highchair, so that the child would be restrained and unable to escape the boredom?
pegsus most eating places here in australia have childrens playgrounds inside in a room for toddlers and children right next to the eating place i have played with my niece in them lots of times kids love being out with other kids
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 08:46:12 PM
pegsus most eating places here in australia have childrens playgrounds inside in a room for toddlers and children right next to the eating place i have played with my niece in them lots of times kids love being out with other kids
Any idea why they have play rooms for childrenh
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 09:16:03 PM
dave is a bit dim isnt he most 2 and 3 year olds are more then capable of eaing in a eating place dave must be of the old school thought that children should not be seen!!!
yes carlys first post to me tonight
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 09:19:39 PM
pegsus most eating places here in australia have childrens playgrounds inside in a room for toddlers and children right next to the eating place i have played with my niece in them lots of times kids love being out with other kids
they have those play areas because young children get bored in restaurants....even in Australia...thats exactly the type of restaurant I regularly take my kids to...outdoor play area if possible...
I wonder how many of you have taken young children to a place like the Ocean Club...I have...
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 28, 2014, 09:25:59 PM
they have those play areas because young children get bored in restaurants....even in Australia...thats exactly the type of restaurant I regularly take my kids to...outdoor play area if possible...
I wonder how many of you have taken young children to a place like the Ocean Club...I have...
Did the company have a duty of care to install an outside play area next to Tapas restaurant? Should they have installed a nice area of grass next to the restaurant so if kids got bored during a family meal, one of the adults could have simply got up from the table mid-cource and supervised the kids playing on the grass next to the restaurant?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2014, 09:27:31 PM
Did the company have a duty of care to install an outside play area next to Tapas restaurant? Should they have installed a nice area of grass next to the restaurant so if kids got bored during a family meal, one of the adults could have simply got up from the table mid-cource and supervised the kids playing on the grass next to the restaurant?
have you ever taken children to one of these resorts?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 28, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
Do you think that warning about burglaries should have included specific advice, for example re the windows, "Please ensure windows are locked before going out" ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pinkblossoms on June 28, 2014, 09:46:53 PM
Did the ocean club know that children were being left on their own ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2014, 09:50:24 PM
Do you think that warning about burglaries should have included specific advice, for example re the windows, "Please ensure windows are locked before going out" ?
No... I've travelled a lot and its quite normal to be warned...theres been a spate of thefts..take care...type of things
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pinkblossoms on June 28, 2014, 10:11:16 PM
**Yes, but not practical,. About 300 yards away with 3 kids between two of them to carry. I haven't yet seen proof of any pushchair that one poster claims. Lets have the proof if you maintain they had one at that early stage, cos it is my understanding that they didn't have one..
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
**As a mother, I would not risk any stranger alone with my kids in a place that was barred to casual callers nor had any trusted second person with the baby sitter. No guarentee, in any case, that any parents would get a nanny that the kids knew. In fact no guarentee that they would get a nanny at all.
There were more families there than Nannies to go round.
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
**They were like in their back garden. Full view of 5A with lighting illuminating the patio window area and also only 50 metres away. Even Amaral said that no-one would go in that way with the tapas group overlooking it and so close. They left the front door locked so that it needed a key to enter. They believed the front of the apartment to be locked against any intruders. No way would anyone expect an intruder to have the front door key.
OC failed to tell them that there had been burglars enter the apartments in the same block in the previous few weeks
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
**The group chose not to want self catering, which was their perogative. They were with a group of like minded friends and wanted a holiday similar to others taken with friends. However, they were under the misconception that this MW holiday site was run like others that had child listening services.
They expressed concern when they learned OC did not, but the arrangements to go were made already
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
***Are you sure? Cos it seems unlikely that patio doors would be lockable from the outside. None of the hotels that I have stayed at, have outside lockable patio doors ... and I have travelled extensively.
Proof please Stephen
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
***Is there anything wrong with asking for a discount? My hubby isn't Scottish and he is always asking for discounts. And anyway, is this a myth ? ... or fact?
The Mccanns version of listening was vastly superior to the listening services normally operated by hotels, which can be a bit hit and miss. Theirs involved regular visual checking of the children.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
** "to facilitate the neglect of their children " what nonsense Stephen, The sentence doesn't even make sense and both PT and UK authorities see no reason to accuse The Mccanns of any neglect. Try and free yourself of this erronious and frankly rather pathetic fixation.
They told people they trusted. I can only think of one apart from fellow dinners and that is Jez Wilkins. How many others did they tell, Stephen? Please name them and the source of your information.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
***John is the main proponent of that. Are you disagreeing with John? Is he a Mccann supporter?
How weak and naive, Stephen. Of course OC would know about some of them, at the very least. In small places like that, the air would be full of it. Everyone gossiping about it. And they read the newspapers. They chose not to prewarn people. their decision and it was almost certainly about bookings and money
So you, Stephen, expected The Mccanns to go out to PdL to check the area and the exact location before their actual holiday? Get real Stephen, that is absolute nonsense.
Btw, anyone going out there would have thought it the safest place on earth. It seemed it to me.
As stated before, the checking system The Mccanns and the Tapas group used was vastly superior to very successfull checking systems used in hotels and holiday camps all around the World.
Not only that but the Tapas Group had close eye view of the apartments, especially of the Mccann apartment which was well illuminated by the street lamp outside. Most peeps using the hotel systems would not be anywhere near nor have eye view.
They were only about 50 metres away and were within hailing distance. I know that from personal experience with my 50 metre+ garden and my children yelling. No probs at all for lively youngsters. Madeleine was no shrinking violet. She would have easily made them hear, plastic windows or not. The ends are open to that restaurant.
She could also see them from the balcony had she gone outside.
Sorry Stephen, but none of your ideas hold water, they fall apart under critical examination. Seems more like a Mccann "boot- putting- in" exercise, rather than a thought out serious post.
Such a lot of work wasted, Try again
In the same vein as your opening sentence, which was "Pay attention davel"
So, carrying on in teacher talk .
[ moderated ]
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2014, 11:27:30 PM
Welcome back sadie. I have missed your own particular brand of nonsense ?{)(**
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2014, 03:58:57 AM
...They were only about 50 metres away and were within hailing distance. ... She would have easily made them hear ... She could also see them from the balcony had she gone outside.
Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table. Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)
But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker (Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely) (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/IMG_0582_small.JPG) (Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)
You seem to be stating that the child could easily have gone onto the balcony to see and shout at the tapas table? The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony" From what distance would this important supervision have been in your scenario?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on June 29, 2014, 05:23:45 PM
Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table. Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)
But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker (Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely) (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/IMG_0582_small.JPG) (Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)
You seem to be stating that the child could have gone onto the balcony to see, and to shout at, the tapas table?
The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony"
Which I imagine would include ensuring that they could not access the balcony when not supervised.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2014, 05:36:27 PM
Welcome back sadie. I have missed your own particular brand of nonsense ?{)(**
Cheers Faith, You rejoining the abusive set? Pity
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2014, 08:23:39 PM
Watch the first video on this page: fast forward to 2 minutes 59 seconds - the sliding door slides open easily http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8zemp_a-verdade-da-mentira-maddie-mccann_news
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 08:59:03 PM
(2nd May) "We borrowed a double buggy from Mark Warner". (Source: The book "Madeleine").
Thank you Pagasus. I knew that they had had a bad experience trying to manage 3 tired little ones when they had had to walk to the Millenium restaurant. So they had borrowed a double buggy on the 2nd. but had already, I believe, booked into The Tapas Restaurant for all the week? Please correct me if I am wrong.
We know that, but before coming out, they had decided on a non self catering holiday, at least for the evening meal. Kate was a working Mum and needed the break, no doubt. They were also with friends and chose a holiday that they could eat together, with catered meals of decent (by the sounds of things) meals. Many couples do that, if they can afford it.
They were unaware of the limited child listening services when they booked. They expected it to be like other MW places.
But they more than equalled most hotel listening services by actually going into the apartment and seeing the children at regular intervals .... not just listening on a monitor, or at a window, or door.
After booking, a 10% discount was requested, and a retrospective discount was given, I already posted proof. The professional MW listening service was superior, with checking interval of 15 minutes, as proven by statements. .
They wanted and at the time of booking expected the MW listening service, but this MW holiday place was different to others, there was No listening service. I am glad they got the discount. Nothing wrong with that.
Not relevant really that the MW service was normally every 15 minutes, cos there wasn't one here. The norm at hotels and holiday camps used to be every 30 minutes (theoretically anyway).
The Mccanns operated a superior system to most hotels and Holiday camps. They actually went into the apartment, listened and LOOKED, visually checked.
Also many people at hotels and holiday camps are nowhere near, or within sight of, their room/apartment. The Mccann friends were close and could actually see the Mccann apartment at only 50 metres away.
The Mccanns believed the front was locked. A key was needed to open the door and the window was closed, shuttered and appeared locked also.
The Patio window door was the only unlocked door and the group had good sight of the patio space and window. It was well illuminated and close. Amaral, himself, said that no intruder would dare go in via that door as it was overlooked by the Tapas group in the restaurant only 50 metres away.
Safety sticker on lounge sliding door cautioned guests to never allow child on balcony unsupervised.
They probably never did. They probably never expected any of the children to stir. Kids on holiday, busy all day long in the sun etc are usually very tired by bedtime .... and usually sleep thru, even if that is not the norm at home. That was my experience anyhow.
We had a big problem with my little boys sleeping habits. He was waking all thru the night at home, but slept like a log on holiday at the seaside. Holidays were bliss thru that alone.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2014, 09:06:16 PM
Also this video at about 40 seconds shows the sliding door opens easily
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 09:28:05 PM
Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table. Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)
But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker (Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely) (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/IMG_0582_small.JPG) (Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)
You seem to be stating that the child could easily have gone onto the balcony to see and shout at the tapas table? The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony" From what distance would this important supervision have been in your scenario?
Pegasus
IF Madeleine were able to to open the patio door, then I am sorry , but you are wrong about her NOT being able to see the Tapas friends from the balcony. No need for a plastic chair. These railings were immediately outside the patio windows. She had a clear view thru the railings ... and the first thing that she would have noticed as she came out was the Tapas restaurant.
It was a lighted place with movement in a dark area. Her eyes would have gone straight to it ... and she would have seen her parents and friends. No doubt have heard Gerry as well. As you correctly surmise they could have heard her too, had she yelled
This photograph illustrates it very well . The Tapas restaurant is the building with giant windows immediately behind the pool. Madeleines Mum and Dad were in the RH window (westerly window)
... there was No listening service. I am glad they got the discount. ...
The discount was nothing to do with listening service. At some date after booking, the group noticed that a 10% discount was at this later date being offered. So one of the group emailed and asked for that 10% discount retrospectivly. Nothing to do with listening service.
Not relevant really that the MW service was normally every 15 minutes
Oh yes it is very relevant, because several members of the group specifically state that the MW interval is 15 minutes and specifically claim they were modelling the MW system. But they replaced MW's 15 minute checking interval with their own longer checking interval, which obviously is less good - it increases the time a child might cry before help coming, from 14 minutes, to 29 minutes, which I suggest politely is the exact opposite of an improvement.
The norm at hotels and holiday camps used to be every 30 minutes (theoretically anyway).
If so provide any source which states a listening service anywhere with 30 minute intervals? I think it would be madness for a company to have such a long checking interval
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2014, 09:45:38 PM
If the photographer had crouched down and taken a second photo, at the eye level of a 3-year old, the shrubbery with yellow flowers just beyond the alleyway wall would block the view of the tapas table.
For a 3 year old to get that excellent view you posted, even standing on a plastic chair would not be enough.
I am just looking at it from a child's point of view, literally.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 10:03:03 PM
The discount was nothing to do with listening service. At some date after booking, the group noticed that a 10% discount was at this later date being offered. So one of the group emailed and asked for that 10% discount retrospectivly. Nothing to do with listening service.
Ah, thank you. So one of the group emailed. Not necessarily The Mccanns. I am glad who ever emailed got the discount anyway
Oh yes it is very relevant, because several members of the group specifically state that the MW interval is 15 minutes and specifically claim they were modelling thethe MW system. But they replaced MW's 15 minute checking interval with their own longer checking interval, which obviously is less good - it increases the time a child might cry before help coming, from 14 minutes, to 29 minutes, which I suggest politely is the exact opposite of an improvement.
I never had reason to use a hotel listening service, my children were late to bed-ders. But am I right that the hotel will phone clients on their mobiles to tell them if there is any crying? So if the clients [parents] are eating out, they are not necessarily close by?
If that is the case, then what the Tapas group did is vastly better than what MW listening service provided for.
Also, given knowledge about a listening device in use, and a quick knock out drug, the abduction using soft shoes, could have been achieved with ease. A listener on a listening device would not necessarily hear a thing. Most especially if it was only listened to once every 15 minutes.
Please do not forget that the Tapas Group were overlooking the only open entrance to 5A from only 50 metres
And Amaral confirmed that no intruder would dare go into 5A by the only unlocked [and lit] entrance.
If so provide any source which states a listening service anywhere with 30 minute intervals? I think it would be madness for a company to have such a long checking interval.
I think that you know the answer to that!
Since Madeleine was abducted no hotels at all, advertise a listening service. It has frightened them. But they did before Madeleine went.
Little doubt with many, if you rang up and specifically asked, they would provide one.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on June 29, 2014, 10:15:04 PM
To me the holiday company SHOULD have issued guests with a warning regarding breakins and attempted breakins. If they had I doubt that anyone would have used Baby monitors or checking systems. 8(8-)) 8(8-)) 8(8-))
Sorry but I haven't seen anyones opinion on this post......Hard as it is.... forget the McCanns.....but guests should have been warned.
I have stayed in resorts where Villa renters have been warned to lock all doors even when using their pools.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 10:16:30 PM
If the photographer had crouched down and taken a second photo, at the eye level of a 3-year old, the shrubbery with yellow flowers just beyond the alleyway wall would block the view of the tapas table.
For a 3 year old to get that excellent view you posted, even standing on a plastic chair would not be enough.
I am just looking at it from a child's point of view, literally.
All the shrubs are overgrown on that photo.
You are very astute. I accept what you are saying, but please do not forget that I have sat in that Tapas restaurant and looked hard at that patio window.
I was further east than the Mccanns and in the LH window [of the photo I desplayed], but that would certainly not have affected the depth of my view. I could see virtually all the window. Some was cut off at the bottom, cos I was looking up, but not a lot.
The shrubs had just been cut at the time Madeleine vanished, as can be seen in contemporary photos. Greenery grows amazingly fast in western PT, presumably because of the warm sun and a fair rainfall.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 10:21:02 PM
... I have sat in that Tapas restaurant and looked hard at that patio window ...
Do you remember whether when you were looking from Tapas, could you see the top of the railing, in front of the of the lounge sliding door? I ask because that is about the height of a 3 year old.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 10:52:18 PM
Do you remember whether when you were looking from Tapas, could you see the top of the railing, in front of the of the lounge sliding door? I ask because that is about the height of a 3 year old.
Undoubtedly, I could. At that stage, Madeleine had lived for almost 4 years btw.
Purleaze, it has been 4 years ago. FGS someone go and check that I am remembering correctly. But I am sure that I could see most of the patio windows.
There is a cheapo offer to OC on atm. Luz is a very nice family or older person sort of place. Purleaze someone go and check.
Tbh, Peagasus what they could, or could not see, depends on the growth of the bushes and hedge. The growth of greenery in western PT is amazingly fast.
Certainly the shrubs in 5A garden in early May 2007 had JUST been cut back. JUST cut right back.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: faithlilly on June 29, 2014, 11:46:49 PM
Undoubtedly, I could. At that stage, Madeleine had lived for almost 4 years btw.
Purleaze, it has been 4 years ago. FGS someone go and check that I am remembering correctly. But I am sure that I could see most of the patio windows.
There is a cheapo offer to OC on atm. Luz is a very nice family or older person sort of place. Purleaze someone go and check.
Tbh, Peagasus what they could, or could not see, depends on the growth of the bushes and hedge. The growth of greenery in western PT is amazingly fast.
Certainly the shrubs in 5A garden in early May 2007 had JUST been cut back. JUST cut right back.
Sadie you say the shrubs had been just cut back in May 2007 but give no evidence for that. Do you have any ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on June 29, 2014, 11:54:23 PM
Sadie you say the shrubs had been just cut back in May 2007 but give no evidence for that. Do you have any ?
Yep, there is a contemporary photograph, but I aint looking for it at this time of night. Soz
Am tired. Was up until after 6am a couple of nights ago, putting a report in, cos of the fiasco on here. Will take me a few days to catch up with my sleep
Maybe tomorrow if you will remind me please, or next time I am here. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: faithlilly on June 29, 2014, 11:55:56 PM
Yep, there is a contemporary photograph, but I aint looking for it at this time of night. Soz
Am tired. Was up until after 6am a couple of nights ago, putting a report in, cos of the fiasco on here. Will take me a few days to catch up with my sleep
Maybe tomorrow if you will remind me please, or next time I am here. 8((()*/
Fair enough sadie.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2014, 12:02:43 AM
Sadie you say the shrubs had been just cut back in May 2007 but give no evidence for that. Do you have any ?
There is a reference to gardeners working on the gardens of block 5 in this link, although it's unclear whether the date was before, or after the 3rd. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id219.html
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: faithlilly on June 30, 2014, 12:22:31 AM
There is a reference to gardeners working on the gardens of block 5 in this link, although it's unclear whether the date was before, or after the 3rd. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id219.html
Thank you Pegasus.
There is an interview with an Algarve based reporter which I'm sure I saw a video of on this forum. He shows some photographs of the back of the apartment taken on the 4th of May and I'm sure they show that the foliage was quite high and dense at the time and did indeed shield most of the patio entrance of 5a from being viewed from the tapas bar. Does anyone remember it ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2014, 12:41:17 AM
Here is the definitive photo for exact sizes of shrubs and trees and the view of tapas table from balcony. It is definitive because it was taken by PJ on the actual night of the "disappearance" Please note this photo was taken several hours after, when the full moon had risen fairly high in the sky. Earlier, at 10pm, it would I think have been darker than the photo shows. And remember this photo was taken from adult eye-level - the view from small child eye-level would be less. Lower photo ("Foto 16") here
Well here is another view of Mark Warner Holidays.
'
1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -
the McCanns chose not to use it.
2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -
the McCann's chose not to use it
3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -
the McCann's chose not to use it.
5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -
the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.
6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -
the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.
7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -
yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.
8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -
yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.
9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '
Comments welcome.
Just to point out, it wasn't Mark Warners book about burglaries...it was OCean Clubs...an entirely different company.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 30, 2014, 11:29:23 PM
perhaps its not as simple as posters think....in 50 years of butlins style baby listening..not one serious incident reported...
in 50 years how many children have been seriously assaulted and even died in registered nurseries
Yes, good points. I am pretty sure they didn't use a baby sitter for a very simple reason...they have to have more than one nanny in the crèches during the day. The fronts of the buildings have large glass windows so passers by can see what is going on. Now, the nannys have all been checked and are fantastic, but......a stranger then in a closed room looking after children....Has no one stopped to think about that yet?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 30, 2014, 11:30:29 PM
Did the company have a duty of care to install an outside play area next to Tapas restaurant? Should they have installed a nice area of grass next to the restaurant so if kids got bored during a family meal, one of the adults could have simply got up from the table mid-cource and supervised the kids playing on the grass next to the restaurant?
Pity they didn't install any lighting. Might be a tad dangerous
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 30, 2014, 11:43:47 PM
Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table. Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)
But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker (Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely) (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/IMG_0582_small.JPG) (Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)
You seem to be stating that the child could easily have gone onto the balcony to see and shout at the tapas table? The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony" From what distance would this important supervision have been in your scenario?
Id love to see proof that this sticker was in all apartments. It certainly was NOT in the apartment we stayed in. You see some of the apartments are privately owned, some owned by Ocean Club. Ocean club will rent out apartments to MW on behalf of some owners...while other apartments are rented out directly from owner to customer. Therefore you cannot state that all apartments had these stickers. They didnt
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on June 30, 2014, 11:53:59 PM
Here is the definitive photo for exact sizes of shrubs and trees and the view of tapas table from balcony. It is definitive because it was taken by PJ on the actual night of the "disappearance" Please note this photo was taken several hours after, when the full moon had risen fairly high in the sky. Earlier, at 10pm, it would I think have been darker than the photo shows. And remember this photo was taken from adult eye-level - the view from small child eye-level would be less. Lower photo ("Foto 16") here http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto15.jpg
The table they were sitting at is smack bang in the centre of those two shrubs. Yes you can see the door from the tapas as the tapas is lower as the resort slopes down to the sea.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 12:16:49 AM
The table they were sitting at is smack bang in the centre of those two shrubs. Yes you can see the door from the tapas as the tapas is lower as the resort slopes down to the sea.
The children's bedroom was out of earshot and completely out of sight of both the Tapas restuarant, and, on Wednesday evening, the Tapas bar.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
That is true but Madeleine could get out of bed and she had legs
Agreed, and also it is easy to open the lounge to balcony sliding glass door, and only then is it possible to attract the diners' attention by waving or shouting from the balcony.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
Id love to see proof that this sticker was in all apartments. It certainly was NOT in the apartment we stayed in. You see some of the apartments are privately owned, some owned by Ocean Club. Ocean club will rent out apartments to MW on behalf of some owners...while other apartments are rented out directly from owner to customer. Therefore you cannot state that all apartments had these stickers. They didnt4
How about simple bloody commonsense ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on July 01, 2014, 12:21:41 PM
Yes, good points. I am pretty sure they didn't use a baby sitter for a very simple reason...they have to have more than one nanny in the crèches during the day. The fronts of the buildings have large glass windows so passers by can see what is going on. Now, the nannys have all been checked and are fantastic, but......a stranger then in a closed room looking after children....Has no one stopped to think about that yet?
I have and agree with you.
The McCanns had 3 tired, under 4yr olds tucked up asleep in bed. The decision (which had worked), to follow their usual routine and check them frequently seemed sensible at the time. After all, the place advertised itself as a family friendly village. Actually a rather boring quiet place imo.
Sadly as we all know, it turned out to be the worst decision/mistake of the McCanns lives and they have paid for it every day for 7 years.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on July 01, 2014, 12:25:48 PM
The McCanns had 3 tired, under 4yr olds tucked up asleep in bed. The decision (which had worked), to follow their usual routine and check them frequently seemed sensible at the time. After all, the place advertised itself as a family friendly village. Actually a rather boring quiet place imo.
Sadly as we all know, it turned out to be the worst decision/mistake of the McCanns lives and they have paid for it every day for 7 years.
And very possibly for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 01, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
The McCanns had 3 tired, under 4yr olds tucked up asleep in bed. The decision (which had worked), to follow their usual routine and check them frequently seemed sensible at the time. After all, the place advertised itself as a family friendly village. Actually a rather boring quiet place imo.
Sadly as we all know, it turned out to be the worst decision/mistake of the McCanns lives and they have paid for it every day for 7 years.
as I have said many times...the butlins style baby listening has been used for 50 years and not one reported incident...sounds pretty safe to me...but then stranger abduction is very...very..rare
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on July 01, 2014, 12:28:35 PM
The McCanns had 3 tired, under 4yr olds tucked up asleep in bed. The decision (which had worked), to follow their usual routine and check them frequently seemed sensible at the time. After all, the place advertised itself as a family friendly village. Actually a rather boring quiet place imo.
Sadly as we all know, it turned out to be the worst decision/mistake of the McCanns lives and they have paid for it every day for 7 years.
Why don't you comment on the things the mccanns failed to do or take up the services offered by Mark Warner ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on July 01, 2014, 12:32:54 PM
as I have said many times...the butlins style baby listening has been used for 50 years and not one reported incident...sounds pretty safe to me...but then stranger abduction is very...very..rare
I know.
Shame more attention isn't focused on who took poor Madeleine, instead of her parents decision.
Sadly that decision cannot be undone.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 12:55:06 PM
Id love to see proof that this sticker was in all apartments. It certainly was NOT in the apartment we stayed in. You see some of the apartments are privately owned, some owned by Ocean Club. Ocean club will rent out apartments to MW on behalf of some owners...while other apartments are rented out directly from owner to customer. Therefore you cannot state that all apartments had these stickers. They didnt
An identical safety sticker was definitely present on the sliding balcony door of apartment G5A.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 01:35:02 PM
Watching Mr Amaral's film I observed at that filming date not just one, but two stickers on the sliding balcony door. Fortunately I can now confirm that both stickers were indeed present in early May 2007. I posted the text of one of the stickers (see photo above of same sticker at a nearby apartment). The other sticker has a larger amount of text - I assume it is possibly further safety advice to guests. I don't know what the text is - I will try to find out - not easy - but hopefully not impossible.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on July 01, 2014, 01:39:30 PM
Watching Mr Amaral's film I observed at that filming date not just one, but two stickers on the sliding balcony door. Fortunately I can now confirm that both stickers were indeed present in early May 2007. I posted the text of one of the stickers (see photo above of same sticker at a nearby apartment). The other sticker has a larger amount of text - I assume it is possibly further safety advice to guests. I don't know what the text is - I will try to find out - not easy - but hopefully not impossible.
Given that holidaymakers of various nationalities used OC, which language would have been reasonable for Warner to use? Would it have been acceptable if the notices had been in Portuguese?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 02:08:11 PM
Id love to see proof that this sticker was in all apartments....
We are interested specifically in apartment G5A and here is proof that the safety sticker definitely was present. First is a photo of an identical sticker at a later date at a different apartment. Next is a PJ forensics photo taken at G5A in early hours of 04 May 2007, (Source: Volume 4 Page 970 Foto 8). And then the same photo mirrored left to right.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on July 01, 2014, 02:09:51 PM
Watching Mr Amaral's film I observed at that filming date not just one, but two stickers on the sliding balcony door. Fortunately I can now confirm that both stickers were indeed present in early May 2007. I posted the text of one of the stickers (see photo above of same sticker at a nearby apartment). The other sticker has a larger amount of text - I assume it is possibly further safety advice to guests. I don't know what the text is - I will try to find out - not easy - but hopefully not impossible.
Your attention to detail is extraordinary, pegasus.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 02:38:03 PM
Given that holidaymakers of various nationalities used OC, which language would have been reasonable for Warner to use? Would it have been acceptable if the notices had been in Portuguese?
The lower sticker (full text posted above) is in english and therefore was seen by and almost certainly read by every english-reading person who opened or closed that sliding door in the period 28 April to 04 May 2007. If we succeed in finding out what the larger upper sticker says, we may find it gives the same text as the lower sticker, but translated into several languages (or we may find it gives further safety or security advice in english), I don't know.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2014, 04:49:24 PM
Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table. Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)
But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker (Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely)(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/IMG_0582_small.JPG) (Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)
You seem to be stating that the child could easily have gone onto the balcony to see and shout at the tapas table? The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony" From what distance would this important supervision have been in your scenario?
Sorry, but you are wrong Pegasus. No warning sticker on this PJ photo.
Now the other matter of having to stand on a plastic chair. No need. IMO, Madeleine could have seen just standing there and if she couldn't then all she had to do was stand on the low wall that the railings themselves stood on. That would lift her several inches. Sorry but I haven't estimated it just, but did at one time and IIRC it was about 8 or 9". Please correct me if I am wrong
Immediately she came out (if she did, and I personally do not believe she did) she would have been atrtracted to the liight and movement at the tapas Restaurant and her Dads voice .... and have looked even more in that direction. Standing on the low railing wall if necessary
Madeleine is no fool. She would have yelled and almost withouit doubt, they would have seen her and heard her. A mother is tuned into the sound of the cries of HER children
But, Pegasus, she didn't go there. Madeleine was carried out the front door, in an unconsciious state. I would bet my bottom dollar on it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2014, 04:53:33 PM
We are interested specifically in apartment G5A and here is proof that the safety sticker definitely was present. First is a photo of an identical sticker at a later date at a different apartment. Next is a PJ forensics photo taken at G5A in early hours of 04 May 2007, (Source: Volume 4 Page 970 Foto 8). And then the same photo mirrored left to right.
I am sorry Pegasus but your photo of the sticker in isolation is proof of NOTHING. See my post above. That is proof.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 01, 2014, 07:58:55 PM
Watching Mr Amaral's film I observed at that filming date not just one, but two stickers on the sliding balcony door. Fortunately I can now confirm that both stickers were indeed present in early May 2007. I posted the text of one of the stickers (see photo above of same sticker at a nearby apartment). The other sticker has a larger amount of text - I assume it is possibly further safety advice to guests. I don't know what the text is - I will try to find out - not easy - but hopefully not impossible.
When was Amarals film made? which film? Have you a link please?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 01, 2014, 08:53:03 PM
Watching Mr Amaral's film I observed at that filming date not just one, but two stickers on the sliding balcony door. Fortunately I can now confirm that both stickers were indeed present in early May 2007. I posted the text of one of the stickers (see photo above of same sticker at a nearby apartment). The other sticker has a larger amount of text - I assume it is possibly further safety advice to guests. I don't know what the text is - I will try to find out - not easy - but hopefully not impossible.
Maybe the other sticker you saw was information about the burglaries and crime at the resort 8)--))..sorry couldn't resist
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2014, 11:26:14 PM
Yep, there is a contemporary photograph, but I aint looking for it at this time of night. Soz
Am tired. Was up until after 6am a couple of nights ago, putting a report in, cos of the fiasco on here. Will take me a few days to catch up with my sleep
Maybe tomorrow if you will remind me please, or next time I am here. 8((()*/
You have been very patient, Faith. Thankyou
I haven't got everything together but I am tired atm, not 100%. These will have to do for the present
This is attached to Carole Tranmers statement.. Her statement was a few days after Madeleine vanished. Presumably the photograph was taken at virtually the same time.
Here you will see the bushes neatly trimmed back. Everything grows at an amazing rate in Western Algarve presumably to do with westerley winds bringing in the rain and the warm climate.
The two main imporrtant things to do with the view are ino
1) the little round bush just left of bottom centre 2) the long hedge which runs lower centre left to upper centre right There is what appears to be a tree in the way BUT it was no hindrance to our visibilty. Presumably because our view was underneath the main head of the tree. From examining photos, I think that would be true of the view The Mccanns had too
Good illustration of the way the bushes were cut back in this Photo taken soon after. Officer Stan on duty, I think ! Tken from the balcony mentioned in "sadies theory"
Like Pegasus I remember mention of the bush cutting back work being done in the statements. Like him, I cannot remember in which statement .... but to have been mentioned means that the work had to have been done before the statements to the PJ and Madeleine being taken.
I wonder if the gardeners weed in the corner of 5A garden, where the dogs are supposed to have alerted? A good place, out of sight !
These photos, below show overgrown bushes and the view from the Tapas Restaurant would have been entirely different had the bushes been overgrown like this.
2. Neatly trimmed back http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/mail-10-08-2007-corner.JPG (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/mail-10-08-2007-corner.JPG)
Huge difference and that is why it is important that only photos taken after the cutting back are looked at.
To remind you, the view from 5A to the tapas restaurant when the greenery is beginning to get longer again. The view would have been better on May 3rd., because the round bush was clipped back and much smaller
The two big windows immediately behind the pool. We sat to the middle right left of the LH window. The mccanns sat to the middle right of the RH window.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 11:32:54 PM
Have you got a photo of that from the files then? Just I haven't seen it.
The children on balcony warning sticker (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4538.0;attach=4027;image) SOURCE: Volume 4 Page 970 Foto 8
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2014, 11:48:16 PM
IF Madeleine were able to to open the patio door, then I am sorry , but you are wrong about her NOT being able to see the Tapas friends from the balcony. No need for a plastic chair. These railings were immediately outside the patio windows. She had a clear view thru the railings ... and the first thing that she would have noticed as she came out was the Tapas restaurant.
It was a lighted place with movement in a dark area. Her eyes would have gone straight to it ... and she would have seen her parents and friends. No doubt have heard Gerry as well. As you correctly surmise they could have heard her too, had she yelled
This photograph illustrates it very well . The Tapas restaurant is the building with giant windows immediately behind the pool. Madeleines Mum and Dad were in the RH window (westerly window)
At the time of the abduction, the bushes had JUST been cut back, so the view would have been much greater.
You can hardly make out the restaurant never mind pick someone out in the dark inside it but then maybe binoculars were the order of the day. Expecting a three-year-old who would clearly be distraught to find her parents in that confusion of buildings is plum silly.
A bit of common sense pleeeeease!!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on July 03, 2014, 03:18:24 PM
Here is the definitive photo for exact sizes of shrubs and trees and the view of tapas table from balcony. It is definitive because it was taken by PJ on the actual night of the "disappearance" Please note this photo was taken several hours after, when the full moon had risen fairly high in the sky. Earlier, at 10pm, it would I think have been darker than the photo shows. And remember this photo was taken from adult eye-level - the view from small child eye-level would be less. Lower photo ("Foto 16") here
Thanks pegasus. The bottom photo (Foto16) is an excellent example of not what can be seen in the dark but what cannot be seen, shrubs or no shrubs. Any toddler coming out onto that balcony and being faced with that view would just scream DADDY!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2014, 03:20:02 PM
You can hardly make out the restaurant never mind pick someone out in the dark inside it but then maybe binoculars were the order of the day. Expecting a three-year-old who would clearly be distraught to find her parents in that confusion of buildings is plum silly.
A bit of common sense pleeeeease!!
If you work out where that photo was taken from...it has been taken with a very wide angle lens, that's why it has so much of the patio in the photo....this will have multiplied the apparent distance to the Tapas
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2014, 03:29:30 PM
If you work out where that photo was taken from...it has been taken with a very wide angle lens, that's why it has so much of the patio in the photo....this will have multiplied the apparent distance to the Tapas
....who were completely distracted whilst eating, drinking and talking.
Whilst the children were LEFT........................
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on July 03, 2014, 03:31:01 PM
If you work out where that photo was taken from...it has been taken with a very wide angle lens, that's why it has so much of the patio in the photo....this will have multiplied the apparent distance to the Tapas
Photos can be deceptive when it comes to distance. The easiest way to work out how far away the group were from 5A is by simply measuring out 50 metres. It's not difficult. I've been on caravan sites in the past where the clubhouse is about the same distance away from some caravans/tents, - maybe even more - and parents have left their children asleep in them to go there in the evenings.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on July 03, 2014, 03:31:17 PM
Photos can be deceptive when it comes to distance. The easiest way to work out how far away the group were from 5A is by simply measuring out 50 metres. It's not difficult. I've been on caravan sites in the past where the clubhouse is about the same distance away from some caravans/tents, - maybe even more - and parents have left their children asleep in them to go there in the evenings.
Lethal.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on July 03, 2014, 03:36:48 PM
Photos can be deceptive when it comes to distance. The easiest way to work out how far away the group were from 5A is by simply measuring out 50 metres. It's not difficult. I've been on caravan sites in the past where the clubhouse is about the same distance away from some caravans/tents, - maybe even more - and parents have left their children asleep in them to go there in the evenings.
Just goes to show how selfish and thoughtless some people can be.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on July 03, 2014, 03:36:53 PM
Photos can be deceptive when it comes to distance. The easiest way to work out how far away the group were from 5A is by simply measuring out 50 metres. It's not difficult. I've been on caravan sites in the past where the clubhouse is about the same distance away from some caravans/tents, - maybe even more - and parents have left their children asleep in them to go there in the evenings.
When I was abroad I would never have dreamt of leaving a toddler alone in a bedroom day or night...the endless possibilities for danger just don't bear thinking about.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Carew on July 03, 2014, 03:40:57 PM
Photos can be deceptive when it comes to distance. The easiest way to work out how far away the group were from 5A is by simply measuring out 50 metres. It's not difficult. I've been on caravan sites in the past where the clubhouse is about the same distance away from some caravans/tents, - maybe even more - and parents have left their children asleep in them to go there in the evenings.
Maybe they also left the doors and tent flaps unsecured too, to enable toddlers who are known to wake distressed, to get out and find them.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on July 03, 2014, 03:43:53 PM
Just goes to show how selfish and thoughtless some people can be.
I didn't say I agreed with it - just that it did happen. And probably still does.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2014, 03:55:55 PM
If there was any evidence to support Madeleine actually opening the patio doors, fingerprints for example, I would think the discussion re. the visibility/audibility for a three year old highly relevant.
There is no support evidence.
More recent developments have looked toward the involvement of employees in burglaries, and there may be more information to come from that. So what sort of vetting procedure was in force and used by the company to check out their employees?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 03, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on July 03, 2014, 03:59:12 PM
Whatever happened to families taking holidays as families and doing things together, rather than just palming the children off wherever & whenever they can?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 03, 2014, 04:06:09 PM
Whatever happened to families taking holidays as families and doing things together, rather than just palming the children off wherever & whenever they can?
Maybe more associated with families with 2 working parents, used to having children in care all week struggle with them for longer periods.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on July 03, 2014, 04:09:23 PM
Maybe, but in that case, why even take them with you?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Carew on July 03, 2014, 04:19:35 PM
From a large group of friends all with small children there might be support, shared combined activities and shared childcare.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 03, 2014, 04:20:05 PM
If you work out where that photo was taken from...it has been taken with a very wide angle lens, that's why it has so much of the patio in the photo....this will have multiplied the apparent distance to the Tapas
Good point. - wideangle lens. But have you ever measured the crow-flies distance from the restaurant table to the children's bedroom?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 03, 2014, 05:41:45 PM
Thanks pegasus. The bottom photo (Foto16) is an excellent example of not what can be seen in the dark but what cannot be seen, shrubs or no shrubs. Any toddler coming out onto that balcony and being faced with that view would just scream DADDY!
IF , and I do NOT believe she came out, but IF then tyhe first thing that she would hear would be her Daddys voice and she would yell him back and climb up onto the about 10" base of the railings.
As you well know John, you cannot trust a night photograph to give a definitely sound picture of how bright the lights in the Tapas restaurant would be.
BUT they would be a damned sight brighter than those shown in that picture.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on July 04, 2014, 01:21:38 AM
Hear her daddy's voice above the ruckus of an enclosed tapas restaurant on a windy night? Don't think so somehow Sadie.
I will agree though that she never came out the patio door otherwise Kate would have found it slightly open.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on July 04, 2014, 11:15:43 AM
Hear her daddy's voice above the ruckus of an enclosed tapas restaurant on a windy night? Don't think so somehow Sadie.
I will agree though that she never came out the patio door otherwise Kate would have found it slightly open.
I think it is the one thing almost everyone agrees on, even Dr Amaral.
Logic dictates that as she did not exit the building through the only egress she might have been capable of opening on her own, a person unknown either carried or walked her out.
Which brings us back to burglaries via the open window which was already known to the holiday company; or the front door the keys of which we now know to have been misappropriated at the time Madeleine was abducted.
Both are circumstances which the Drs McCann could not be expected to know anything about.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on July 04, 2014, 07:55:30 PM
I think it is the one thing almost everyone agrees on, even Dr Amaral.
Logic dictates that as she did not exit the building through the only egress she might have been capable of opening on her own, a person unknown either carried or walked her out.
Which brings us back to burglaries via the open window which was already known to the holiday company; or the front door the keys of which we now know to have been misappropriated at the time Madeleine was abducted.
Both are circumstances which the Drs McCann could not be expected to know anything about.
They also wouldn't (like most guests) have known about recent local burglaries and attempted ones. Shocking imo that MW/OC did not issue guests with a warning.....
On the other hand maybe they knew that locking the doors wouldn't actually help prevent breakins... >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 04, 2014, 08:14:57 PM
They also wouldn't (like most guests) have known about recent local burglaries and attempted ones. Shocking imo that MW/OC did not issue guests with a warning.....
On the other hand maybe they knew that locking the doors wouldn't actually help prevent breakins... >@@(*&)
This has been dealt with thoroughly already.
The mccanns had the opportunity to take the facilities offered by the Mark Warner company.
THEY DIDN'T.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: LagosBen on July 04, 2014, 08:23:52 PM
The mccanns had the opportunity to take the facilities offered by the Mark Warner company.
THEY DIDN'T.
And I suspect many others didn't either.
There is no excuse for the companies not warning guests. Had they done so I doubt that any guest would have used baby monitors or checks on their sleeping children.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 04, 2014, 09:07:31 PM
IF , and I do NOT believe she came out, but IF then tyhe first thing that she would hear would be her Daddys voice and she would yell him back and climb up onto the about 10" base of the railings. ...
Yes in this photo taken in the early hours of the 4th, we can see that a small child wishing to gain a better view of the restaurant table, might gain a good increase in height by standing on the wall at the base of the railings. I have not measured this wall yet but I guess it may be about 300mm? A further approx 50mm could be gained by standing on the lower horizontal metal rail of the railings just above the wall - zoom in to see this. (Source: Vol 1 Page 21)
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 04, 2014, 10:16:37 PM
Yes in this photo taken in the early hours of the 4th, we can see that a small child wishing to gain a better view of the restaurant table, might gain a good increase in height by standing on the wall at the base of the railings. I have not measured this wall yet but I guess it may be about 300mm? A further approx 50mm could be gained by standing on the lower horizontal metal rail of the railings just above the wall - zoom in to see this. (Source: Vol 1 Page 21)
I get what you are saying, but did you realise that is the wrong railing? The railing you show is not immediately outside the sitting room patio windows but outside the patio windows to Kate and Gerrys bedroom.
Madeleine would have gone straight to the closest railing and not that one imo.
Anyway, I really do not think that Madeleine came out via the patio doors.
Btw, do you have a definite answer to this. Are you technical, Pegasus? Is the sitting room patio door top hung or bottom supported.? Please.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 04, 2014, 11:15:39 PM
They also wouldn't (like most guests) have known about recent local burglaries and attempted ones. Shocking imo that MW/OC did not issue guests with a warning.....
On the other hand maybe they knew that locking the doors wouldn't actually help prevent breakins... >@@(*&)
Are you suggesting that MW were aware of spare keys in the hands of criminals and did nothing about it?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 05, 2014, 09:45:54 PM
If you work out where that photo was taken from...it has been taken with a very wide angle lens, that's why it has so much of the patio in the photo....this will have multiplied the apparent distance to the Tapas
I know you are right. No way was it that far away as shown in the photograph. I could hear the kids shouting over to their parents in who were in the pool a few apartments up from 5a....and looking at this photo there is no way you could hear....the wide angle lens makes it look a hell of a lot further.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 05, 2014, 09:51:45 PM
They also wouldn't (like most guests) have known about recent local burglaries and attempted ones. Shocking imo that MW/OC did not issue guests with a warning.....
On the other hand maybe they knew that locking the doors wouldn't actually help prevent breakins... >@@(*&)
They were told to keep it quiet
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 05, 2014, 10:22:38 PM
I know you are right. No way was it that far away as shown in the photograph. I could hear the kids shouting over to their parents in who were in the pool a few apartments up from 5a....and looking at this photo there is no way you could hear....the wide angle lens makes it look a hell of a lot further.
I am glad you have been there Freya. It hasn't been much fun having the other side intimating that I am lying.
I was just amazed how compact the tapas garden and area generally was. It all seemed very cosy. A funny expression to use about a garden, but that was the overall feeling that I got. Brilliantly laid out , I guess by part owner Robin Crossland who is a qualified architect.
Robin Crosland + David Symington + (?) John Garveigh were joint owners of OC. According to Blackwatch of the Sargeants blog, Symington and Garveigh shot off on a Carribean yachting holiday so avoiding the aftermath. They stayed out of contact for yonks and I believe were never interviewed.
So much for their Duty of Care !
And why were they never asked for their statements ?
Robin Crosland had to field all the questions
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 05, 2014, 10:47:08 PM
Dr Amaral was at pains to emphasise there was only one key to the front door of apartment 5a.
That is absolute rubbish. No hotel/Appartment complex of the size and quality of OC would manage on one key.
We are unusually well travelled both on business and privately. Hotels we stay at invariably give us a second key if we ask for one... and we do
Also a couple reported in their statement that when they stayed in that apartment, they were upset cos the maids used to just come in at any old time via the locked front door ... and even thru the double locked door. So how did that happen, if there was only one key
Is Amaral saying that the cleaners had a key, but the guests did not? Or what ?
And how about maintenance work?. Of course there were spare keys.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 05, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
I am glad you have been there Freya. It hasn't been much fun having the other side intimating that I am lying.
I was just amazed how compact the tapas garden and area generally was. It all seemed very cosy. A funny expression to use about a garden, but that was the overall feeling that I got. Brilliantly laid out , I guess by part owner Robin Crossland who is a qualified architect.
Robin Crosland + David Symington + (?) John Garveigh were joint owners of OC. According to Blackwatch of the Sargeants blog, Symington and Garveigh shot off on a Carribean yachting holiday so avoiding the aftermath. They stayed out of contact for yonks and I believe were never interviewed.
So much for their Duty of Care !
And why were they never asked for their statements ?
Robin Crosland had to field all the questions
I thought John Hill was the manager...
Quote
JOHN HILL (Manager of the Mark Warner Ocean Club) the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill, said there was no definite physical evidence that the girl had been abducted. "It's still questionable as to whether it's an abduction," he said. "We are hoping that Madeline is found as soon as possible and safe and well." Mr Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports. "There is a criminal investigator here in charge of the situation and around 20 officers but unfortunately there is still no information,"
...just found another reference and it seems both had management roles.
P.S. Are you Judith Chalmers?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 05, 2014, 11:23:29 PM
...We are unusually well travelled both on business and privately. Hotels we stay at invariably give us a second key if we ask for one... and we do...
An alternative is, during the day, to leave the key outside the front door, hidden under the door mat?
ETA Sources: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html & http://www.mccannfiles.com/id252.html "... we did occasionally ... during the daytime, leave the key under the mat ..." " ... during the daytime ... we left the key under the ... mat ..."
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 06, 2014, 06:32:31 PM
An alternative is, during the day, to leave the key outside the front door, hidden under the door mat?
ETA Sources: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html & http://www.mccannfiles.com/id252.html "... we did occasionally ... during the daytime, leave the key under the mat ..." " ... during the daytime ... we left the key under the ... mat ..."
Perhaps they didn't ask for a second key? Perhaps as young people they didn't realise that they are usually available?
We rarely fail to get a second key
Pegasus in your anxiety to protect Amaral and indite the Mccanns you are forgetting the couple who stayed in that apartment and were troubled by the cleaners walking into a double locked room.
They had a key quite obviously.
And are you suggesting that there were no spare keys available? What is someone staying there left with the only key? Happened to us this last holiday. WE sent it back but are you suggesting that the hotel would have managed with one room locked off, unavailble?
One new couple arriving to be told "Sorry but no key, the last guests took it away, so you cant stay here ..... tough"
And the men who came to repair the Mccanns, [was it?] bedroom patio door. How would they get in?
Pegasus, you are not a dumbo, you have proved that. So hows about putting your thinking cap on and resisting such silly statements as only one key
We KNOW you want to support Amaral
BUT REALLY !!!!!
Amaral is a fool if he thinks any experienced travellers would believe the story about only one key
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 06:56:14 PM
One key per apartment was provided to guests. That's why the guests at 5H that week during the daytimes occasionally left the key under the door-mat.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Moderator on July 06, 2014, 09:45:28 PM
The McCanns apartment was privately owned so I would assume there probably was two keys in the possession of OC, one for staff and one for guests.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 07, 2014, 11:33:32 AM
The 'abductor/s didn't need a key the door was unlocked according to Kate n Gerry- well that was established after the 'shutters and whooshing' story was thrown out, and the- 'was it -was it not locked story was finally established. I said FINALLY as there was a lot rethinking going on with that regard.
Also were the gypsies, paedophile gangs, burglars, child stealers not 'watching' them for days? according to Team McCann.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 07, 2014, 11:38:17 AM
The 'abductor/s didn't need a key the door was unlocked according to Kate n Gerry- well that was established after the 'shutters and whooshing' story was thrown out, and the- 'was it -was it not locked story was finally established. I said FINALLY as there was a lot rethinking going on with that regard.
Also were the gypsies, paedophile gangs, burglars, child stealers not 'watching' them for days? according to Team McCann.
Psychic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JaRObcLsds
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on July 07, 2014, 11:42:54 AM
The McCanns apartment was privately owned so I would assume there probably was two keys in the possession of OC, one for staff and one for guests.
At the very minimum there would have to be at least three
One for the guests One for the staff A spare in case a key is lost or taken home
This is not a little apartment in someones home and it would be run professionally. Realistically there had to be at least 5 keys because
i) It is normal to give a second key out to guests if requested. ii) They would need two keys for staff. Cant have the plumber having to waste time [and money] running around after the key from cleaners who are off having coffee.
Amaral made the ONLY ONE key up ....... or being kind to him, he was misinformed, or misunderstood.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Lace on July 07, 2014, 11:49:55 AM
The 'abductor/s didn't need a key the door was unlocked according to Kate n Gerry- well that was established after the 'shutters and whooshing' story was thrown out, and the- 'was it -was it not locked story was finally established. I said FINALLY as there was a lot rethinking going on with that regard.
Also were the gypsies, paedophile gangs, burglars, child stealers not 'watching' them for days? according to Team McCann.
You are actually wrong there.
In Kate McCanns first statement on the 4th of May she says she went in through the patio doors which were unlocked. The shutters and 'whooshing' story as you call it was not thrown out.
I believe the McCann's said they believe they could have been observed for days. This is very likely. Don't know why you have the attitude that it was not possible.
Have you ever wondered that due to the McCann's being observed over a couple of days, knowing the McCann's were using that entrance to check on the children, entering through the patio doors could have been too risky? They used a key to open the front door instead? This door was shrouded in darkness, and so they would be less likely to be caught.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 07, 2014, 12:10:23 PM
If they were really clever 'abductors' and they must be because the whole world and its cousin have been l@@king for little Maddie for 7 years!, then they would have noticed that:
1. The children often woke up crying during the night. 2. The parents have evidenced that their 'check' AND home made baby listening service' was sparce, if at all. 3. The patio door was unlocked!
So now we have at least 2 McCann 'theories' to fit someone up a.enter and leave by a window with a child- dead or alive? b. being watched and a key being used- which knocks out the window thingy
Does this apartment have a chimney?
It is worth remembering that the McCanns have a reputation to protect so they claim: *there is NO WAY Maddie could have left the apartment on her own that night-she must have been 'snatched'
*and the fact that they left the children alone in an UNLOCKED apartment- and one went missing.. wow! cute eh?
I saw through these two way back on the first interview!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2014, 12:12:36 PM
...just found another reference and it seems both had management roles.
P.S. Are you Judith Chalmers?
- quote - JOHN HILL (Manager of the Mark Warner Ocean Club) the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill, said there was no definite physical evidence that the girl had been abducted. "It's still questionable as to whether it's an abduction," he said. "We are hoping that Madeline is found as soon as possible and safe and well." Mr Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports. "There is a criminal investigator here in charge of the situation and around 20 officers but unfortunately there is still no information," - end quote
So this is the genesis of - 'there is no evidence of abduction.' ??? When they were still actively looking for a child who might have wandered off on her own !!! but guess what, when it was ascertained that Madeleine was nowhere to be found ... that was evidence of abduction.
So one of the pervasive mantras is a statement from no less an expert in child protection than ... an hotel manager. Says it all.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 07, 2014, 12:32:57 PM
quote"when it was ascertained that Madeleine was nowhere to be found ... that was evidence of abduction."unquote
No, evidence of an abduction would be:
Independent eyewitness accounts. Maddie being identified as being removed. Forensic evidence, of removal ie, scuff marks on the window Ledge-finger prints-DNA Material evidence, a body to establish death/or a living child who can recall being 'snatched' from her room
BORING STUFF like that!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Moderator on July 07, 2014, 01:38:47 PM
The front door had a double locking mechanism familiar to most of us. In addition to the snib lock a second lock/bolt could be applied.
The 'abductor/s didn't need a key the door was unlocked according to Kate n Gerry- well that was established after the 'shutters and whooshing' story was thrown out, and the- 'was it -was it not locked story was finally established. I said FINALLY as there was a lot rethinking going on with that regard.
Also were the gypsies, paedophile gangs, burglars, child stealers not 'watching' them for days? according to Team McCann.
Not true. SY believe Kate's description of what happened. If they believed she had lied - there is no way they could have made a public announcement confirming that the McCanns were neither suspects nor persons of interest in this case. That would have made no sense.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 08, 2014, 01:55:22 PM
SY are not there on Kate's version of what happened at all.
They are looking for a body, or some evidence in the hope of solving the crime OF A MISSING CHILD.
The 'whooshing and shutters' are a red herring.
Team Mc did not want to admit to the press they left children alone in an unlocked apartment!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on July 08, 2014, 06:31:12 PM
SY are not there on Kate's version of what happened at all.
They are looking for a body, or some evidence in the hope of solving the crime OF A MISSING CHILD.
The 'whooshing and shutters' are a red herring.
Team Mc did not want to admit to the press they left children alone in an unlocked apartment!
I'm afraid you've lost me. Could you clarify please. Are you saying SY do NOT believe Kate's claim that the window/shutters were open and the curtain whooshed?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 08, 2014, 06:32:41 PM
I'm afraid you've lost me. Could you clarify please. Are you saying SY do NOT believe Kate's claim that the window/shutters were open and the curtain whooshed?
Ah the made up claim.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 10, 2014, 09:24:13 AM
I am glad you have been there Freya. It hasn't been much fun having the other side intimating that I am lying.
I was just amazed how compact the tapas garden and area generally was. It all seemed very cosy. A funny expression to use about a garden, but that was the overall feeling that I got. Brilliantly laid out , I guess by part owner Robin Crossland who is a qualified architect.
Robin Crosland + David Symington + (?) John Garveigh were joint owners of OC. According to Blackwatch of the Sargeants blog, Symington and Garveigh shot off on a Carribean yachting holiday so avoiding the aftermath. They stayed out of contact for yonks and I believe were never interviewed.
So much for their Duty of Care !
And why were they never asked for their statements ?
Robin Crosland had to field all the questions
I cant comment on these guys Sadie as I never met them or know much about them. My impression was that the main stay of the hiding re burglaries came from OC and not Mark Warner. I gathered this from my impression of how the place operated on a day to day basis. Mark Warner did certainly keep it quiet and they were involved in actively keeping it from their guests. However, as it was down to OC to keep that book and log of thefts and MW is renting from them, I think OC should take the lion share of the blame. MW are still culpable though.
As for what it is like there Sadie, yes, it is very much a village atmosphere. But what you are also totally unaware of is what it was like PRE abduction. Imagine what you saw and felt of the place and then take away what horrific event took place in May 07.......It felt bloody safe. The comment Gerry McCann made about the "back garden" was not meant literally at all IMO. He meant how safe it "FELT" I felt safer there than at home in the village I live in here in UK. It wasn't till the tail end of our hols I found out about the stabbing on the beach, and how that stuff was kept from holiday makers. Many people speak never having been there and think they have every right to pass judgement. They are speaking out of ignorance. When I watched the breaking news I could not believe what had happened.....even though I heard bout a stabbing you think it is a one off. Since finding out the rest of the stuff I still feel shocked....it seemed such a lovely place......... 8(8-)) 8(8-)) 8(8-))
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 10, 2014, 09:40:05 AM
...just found another reference and it seems both had management roles.
P.S. Are you Judith Chalmers?
The set up is really confusing. TWO companies. OC who run the whole place and rent out apartments and certain areas to MW. Its like a concession as such. But MW have a hell of a lot of sway...OC were running round like headless chickens trying to please MArk Chitty (I think that was his name) A MW director I think.
Silvia Batista I think is the OC manager on site...John Hill is most definitely the manager for MW on site 8((()*/
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 10, 2014, 09:41:16 AM
An alternative is, during the day, to leave the key outside the front door, hidden under the door mat?
ETA Sources: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html & http://www.mccannfiles.com/id252.html "... we did occasionally ... during the daytime, leave the key under the mat ..." " ... during the daytime ... we left the key under the ... mat ..."
You can definitely get a second and even a third key....as we did
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 10, 2014, 09:43:16 AM
One key per apartment was provided to guests. That's why the guests at 5H that week during the daytimes occasionally left the key under the door-mat.
They didn't think to ask then. I did! we were told to go to OC reception and ask....hey presto. And so did another couple there who were friends......we let them know you could get them. You have to show your passport I believe as proof of who you are.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 10, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
The 'abductor/s didn't need a key the door was unlocked according to Kate n Gerry- well that was established after the 'shutters and whooshing' story was thrown out, and the- 'was it -was it not locked story was finally established. I said FINALLY as there was a lot rethinking going on with that regard.
Also were the gypsies, paedophile gangs, burglars, child stealers not 'watching' them for days? according to Team McCann.
They have never said that was the case with certainty have they? that's what they were assuming may have happened. But Im sure you are aware of that anyway. Personally, I think it wasn't really planned that well. I think they didn't even try the back door. They went in through the front door, shutters used as look out and left through front door. Key used.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 10, 2014, 09:48:42 AM
In Kate McCanns first statement on the 4th of May she says she went in through the patio doors which were unlocked. The shutters and 'whooshing' story as you call it was not thrown out.
I believe the McCann's said they believe they could have been observed for days. This is very likely. Don't know why you have the attitude that it was not possible.
Have you ever wondered that due to the McCann's being observed over a couple of days, knowing the McCann's were using that entrance to check on the children, entering through the patio doors could have been too risky? They used a key to open the front door instead? This door was shrouded in darkness, and so they would be less likely to be caught.
I agree with part of that. I would say the patio doors weren't tried because that door could be seen from the tapas. That simple, why would anyone risk using it when the front door is hidden away.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 10, 2014, 09:56:11 AM
So we are clear, you are accusing MW/OC of having a deliberate policy of hiding facts about serious incidents from customers?
What do you define as policy? I would think that meant a document that states as much wouldn't you? I would never have seen anything like that being a guest would I?
Ive made it very clear....it was something I was told about. A member of staff....nothing official.
It is interesting though isn't it? BBC were contemplating the same things you are....they considered a documentary about this. WHy it never went ahead I don't know.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Freya on July 10, 2014, 09:57:32 AM
They have never said that was the case with certainty have they? that's what they were assuming may have happened. But Im sure you are aware of that anyway. Personally, I think it wasn't really planned that well. I think they didn't even try the back door. They went in through the front door, shutters used as look out and left through front door. Key used.
I think it was planned and watched, but otherwise I agree completely.
In and out via the dark, recessed front door that no-one ever walked past because it was the end of the pathway and led nowhere else. The front door was completely out of sight to anyone coming and going to the other flats. The window was opened for other reasons well discussed previously.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on July 12, 2014, 12:08:04 AM
1. Well I am pretty sure that I have seen contemporary photos without them. I think Ip posted them on here.Maybe OC quickly went in and stuck them there to cover their omission? ...
Photograph showing the "Before Stepping Out" balcony safety sticker at about 2AM on 4th May (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4538.0;attach=4027;image)
BTW all this blaming the holiday company stuff can I think be traced back to rubbish spouted by some of the so-called legal experts who flew out in the first few days. IMO the group as a whole would had been far better off if they had ignored that legalese denial rubbish and just been honest about it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on July 18, 2014, 04:00:22 PM
I think the following may be proof that little time is required to raise the shutter of the apartment; any subsequent noise either being ignored or unheard; and the person/s carrying out the procedure being able to do so unobserved.
- Snipped -
- Back at 5A of the Ocean Club, on 26 September someone forced up the external blinds of the front bedroom to an oblique angle. There appeared to be no attempt to force open the window. The security guard stated between 21:00 and 21:05 he had done the 'rounds' of the block, then walked down to the supermarket and back again whereupon he found the damage which he called in immediately.
- He and a colleague from the same security detail had conversed shortly before 21:00 noting that neither had seen any strangers other than two Canadian television journalists, a man and a woman, who had been seen at a nearby bar.
- Given the limited damage and that there had been many people at that location [presumably during the previous days and all authorised] there was no attempt to retrieve fingerprints, but inquiries were made of TV crews and journalists in and around Luz and Lagos, without result. Processos Vol XI Pages 2945 – 2952 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
I lifted the above quote from another thread which would appear to indicate that Ocean Club felt it necessary to employ security guards after the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann. It rather beggars the question, were they trying to prevent another alleged abduction or trying to stop media persons from breaking in?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 18, 2014, 04:04:44 PM
I lifted the above quote from another thread which would appear to indicate that Ocean Club felt it necessary to employ security guards after the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann. It rather beggars the question, were they trying to prevent another alleged abduction or trying to stop media persons from breaking in?
A good point sir; may I propose however that whatever OC/Mark Warner did it was at the suggestion of Control Risks Group?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on July 18, 2014, 07:04:22 PM
I lifted the above quote from another thread which would appear to indicate that Ocean Club felt it necessary to employ security guards after the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann. It rather beggars the question, were they trying to prevent another alleged abduction or trying to stop media persons from breaking in?
Seems they weren't the only one's trying to get in John.
- On 20 September, two men and a women, claiming to be from "Sky News", attempted to force open the external blinds of the front bedroom of apartment 5A and were asked to leave the area; on 25 September a three Spanish persons - again two men and a woman - were found with cameras on the patio balcony of apartment 5B. Having no identification, but being in possession of film equipment, they were believed to be journalists. - Cleaning staff in Ocean Club were persistently accosted by journalists, often with offers of money, to provide access to apartment 5A. They were always refused but the personal particulars of the pests were not noted.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2014, 03:18:02 PM
The director of the Ocean Club's technical services, Silvia Batista, confirmed that on the same night Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered them the babysitting service, because the hotel is responsible for its guests, but they rejected her offer.
"We had no guilt in the disappearance of the small, could not say who was at fault, but ours did not," said the director, noting that "the parents of the girl that night were very careless," why would not have asked for babysitting.
The director of the Ocean Club's technical services, Silvia Batista, confirmed that on the same night Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered them the babysitting service, because the hotel is responsible for its guests, but they rejected her offer.
"We had no guilt in the disappearance of the small, could not say who was at fault, but ours did not," said the director, noting that "the parents of the girl that night were very careless," why would not have asked for babysitting.
Sorry. I am going to need a bit more than that to believe this apparent statement.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2014, 03:27:48 PM
This was first mooted with regard to Chaplin's. We now know that The McCanns never went to Chaplin's.
Apart from that, The Ocean Club had no reason for approaching The McCanns with such an offer.
But please don't think I am blaming you. It is probably worth discussing, even if only for a translation.
According to the director of housing, "every month there are records of theft in the place, so that the service of a nanny is advised" but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it. http://www.terra.com.pe/noticias/articulo/html/act934149.htm
If this was true it would have been in the major press headlines here and PT and in her statement to the police. I was under the impression that very few people new of these frequent thefts including many of the OC staff, so how would the McCanns and friends know. It should have been on a warning printouts in the apartment and their public buildings. I think it should also have been included in the paperwork given to holidaymakers when they arrived…………..Was it?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2014, 04:12:53 PM
Thanks, Anna. So what she was saying is that babysitters were available at a price, but The McCanns chose not to use one.
But I don't think any of the holiday makers were advised of burglaries.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on September 18, 2014, 04:14:28 PM
Baptista left work at 6pm, so what time on that night did she offer the babysitting service?
On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools. At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 .
At about 18H00 she left the resort and only came back when the circumstances outlined above occurred. During the day 03/05/2007 she did not detect anything unusual or different.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 18, 2014, 04:14:52 PM
This was first mooted with regard to Chaplin's. We now know that The McCanns never went to Chaplin's.
Apart from that, The Ocean Club had no reason for approaching The McCanns with such an offer.
But please don't think I am blaming you. It is probably worth discussing, even if only for a translation.
Sorry Eleanor, I forgot the translation of that page
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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 Again suspicions are geared to parents of Madeleine
When the Portuguese Police said the parents of little Madeleine McCann were above suspicion, now the declaration of a new protagonist in the desperate search for British girl four years desparecida 100 days further complicates the situation McCann.
288 Madeleine Parents
Parents of small they are questioned for being left alone in that room for children to eat with friends. Related articles
There hypothesized that Maddie McCann is alive Madeleine's parents hid his body and simulated kidnapping Witness says he saw Maddie this week at a bank office in Brussels Where is Caylee? Girl still missing Police fear Maddie fell pedophile network in the Netherlands Learn more »
The Director of Technical Services Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, said the night Madeleine disappeared, she personally offered the child care service "because the hotel is responsible for the children of clients, but they rejected ". Madeleine was last seen on May 3 when he slept with her siblings in a rented room of a hotel in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal.
Parents of small they are questioned for being left alone in that room for children to eat with friends. According to the director of housing, "every month there are records of theft in the place, so that the service of a nanny is advised" but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it.
Batista said in a portal Globo.com given to the hotel is working from the beginning with the police to find the little interview. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but returned to be closed again.
The director also said that the resort site there "very curious, but do not alter the routine of the place."
"We had no guilt in the disappearance of the small, could not say who was at fault, but ours did not," said the director, noting that "the parents of the girl that night were very careless," why would not have asked for babysitting.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2014, 04:19:06 PM
I am bowing out now, because I might get personal.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 18, 2014, 04:20:15 PM
Baptista left work at 6pm, so what time on that night did she offer the babysitting service?
On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools. At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 .
At about 18H00 she left the resort and only came back when the circumstances outlined above occurred. During the day 03/05/2007 she did not detect anything unusual or different.
Thanks DCI Your post proves that the whole story was a lie by either the newspaper or SB ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
According to the director of housing, "every month there are records of theft in the place, so that the service of a nanny is advised" but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it. http://www.terra.com.pe/noticias/articulo/html/act934149.htm
If this was true it would have been in the major press headlines here and PT and in her statement to the police. I was under the impression that very few people new of these frequent thefts including many of the OC staff, so how would the McCanns and friends know. It should have been on a warning printouts in the apartment and their public buildings. I think it should also have been included in the paperwork given to holidaymakers when they arrived…………..Was it?
Even now many people are in denial about burglaries and home invasions where children were targetted and nothing stolen. The Eamonn Holmes interview with Paul Luckman immediately springs to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcIwprGp7Ew
I think Ms Batista did a lot of talking as recorded in the files - I don't recall mention of her recommendation as stated here - but she is the first to suggest that the request for a priest was suspicious as that was only done in the event of a death in Portugal.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on September 18, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
Even now many people are in denial about burglaries and home invasions where children were targetted and nothing stolen. The Eamonn Holmes interview with Paul Luckman immediately springs to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcIwprGp7Ew
I think Ms Batista did a lot of talking as recorded in the files - I don't recall mention of her recommendation as stated here - but she is the first to suggest that the request for a priest was suspicious as that was only done in the event of a death in Portugal.
That is just one example of how the differing cultures as well as the language barrier worked against the McCanns.
She is also the lady who claimed to have seen Robert Murat on the night of the 3rd, and was supposed to be attending the 'confrontation' meeting with Fiona Payne & co. - but failed to turn up on the day.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 18, 2014, 04:54:30 PM
Even now many people are in denial about burglaries and home invasions where children were targetted and nothing stolen. The Eamonn Holmes interview with Paul Luckman immediately springs to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcIwprGp7Ew
I think Ms Batista did a lot of talking as recorded in the files - I don't recall mention of her recommendation as stated here - but she is the first to suggest that the request for a priest was suspicious as that was only done in the event of a death in Portugal.
Was he cagey or what? Seems the blame lies with the holidaymakers in his conclusion, but surely a guest would report to the OC and then it would be up to them,to take it further since they had no means of security?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 18, 2014, 04:57:46 PM
That is just one example of how the differing cultures as well as the language barrier worked against the McCanns.
She is also the lady who claimed to have seen Robert Murat on the night of the 3rd, and was supposed to be attending the 'confrontation' meeting with Fiona Payne & co. - but failed to turn up on the day.
A very loyal lady, I think she would defend the OC no matter what, same goes for some of the other staff.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on September 19, 2014, 04:33:52 PM
I wonder could Mrs Fenn's report of constant crying in apartment 5a on the Tuesday night (Wednesday too according to Madeleine) have influenced Silvia Batista to make an approach on the Thursday?
I wonder could Mrs Fenn's report of constant crying in apartment 5a on the Tuesday night (Wednesday too according to Madeleine) have influenced Silvia Batista to make an approach on the Thursday?
There will be much that is not mentioned in her statement.
She didn't make one statement; she made three.
As far as I can see missed nothing out, from questioning the call for a priest - the praying Arab scenario – descriptions of the mother and father just sitting on the bed, not searching – questioning Jane Tanner’s sighting – the insistence that Madeleine had been abducted etc. etc. ... IMO if she had made such a statement on the basis of a report of a child crying we would have heard all about it in graphic detail because she had an opinion on everything else and wasn’t slow to share.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 19, 2014, 08:00:31 PM
There will be much that is not mentioned in her statement.
But surely if there had been a complaint of crying or she had spoken to the parents regarding babysitters, it would have been on one of her 3 statements. There is no mention of it on what she done on that day before she went off duty at I think 6.00 pm. She had plenty to say on 26th regarding Murats family and the request by Kate for a Priest etc, so why leave out something so important to her new job which she had only commenced that year. I think it was a press nonsense, but I will check other news to see if it has picked it up.
Silvia Maria Correia Ramos Batista
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H20 Maintenance Services Director Portuguese
Concerning the issue of the process said: . That she works at the Ocean Club since 03/03/1996, having exercised this time in the function of receptionist—for around one year and a half, Reception Manager—for around three years and since this year to the present date, Director of Maintenance Services; . That the function of Director of Maintenance and Services she is responsible , in the area of services the hiring of people, and in the area of maintenance is responsible for the admission of employees and for the good functioning of all the machinery that composes the Ocean Club, principally, in the apartments, pools, gardens, fending, etc; . As concerns the admission of employees, this is done in the traditional way, or is, when the need for an employee is determined in an area, the situation is commented on between the various people responsible and the rest of employees; . Generally, it is an existing employee or other who indicates that they know of someone, in the majority of cases, resident in Lagos; . In whatever the case, there is always a labour contract made with the employee, for a minimum of six months, and a file exists of said employee which contains identification details of said person and information regarding previous professional practices; . An exception is made when a business in contracted to carry out a service and whose business is responsible for the employees, those being in the meanwhile accompanied by that who is responsible for works and maintenance, Mister Joao Carlos Silva Batista; . She is aware of that which occurred in the Ocean Club resort and is aware of the disappearance of the child, around 22H30 on the 03 of May, 2007, following a telephone call from her Administrator George Robin Crossland; . She immediately went to the Ocean Club resort, and already there were the GNR, and a search was immediately carried out throughout the resort with e search being carried out by many residents and employees of the Ocean Club; . That on the date 03/05/07, her workday began at 09H30, having entered in the Ocean Club, through the Club Zone, having walked around the pool area and prior to that the other pools; . At around 13H00, she went to lunch in Lagos, together with her husband, Mister Joao Carlos Silva Batista, and returned around 14H30; . That around 18H00 she left the Ocean Club resort, having returned to the same, as a result of the circumstances already described, at around 23H00; . That during the day 03/05/07 she did not detect nothing abnormal or different on this day; . That she also was not told of any abnormal situation which happened; . That after the happenings and in conversation with the rest of the employees and Ocean Club management, nothing was related to her or commented upon regarding the situation that was abnormal, namely the presence of strange people in the resort; . That the Ocean Club resort does not have a CCTV system, nor policing of the resort district; . And nothing further was said. Having read the statement, she finds it in conformity and signs it; . The document is duly signed by me, Helder Carmo, an Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária.
2007 - 07 - 26
“Concerning the matter of the process, the witness said:
That she has given statements for several times within the process, and remembers the contents of what she stated before, therefore reproducing the contents of the previous statements into this statement.
The deponent offers another statement because with the passage of time, since Madeleine’s disappearance, she has remembered some details of the facts that she witnessed, which she considers of some interest to the investigation.
Like she said before, she was alerted to Madeleine’s disappearance between 10.30 and 11 p.m. She was at home and was informed about the event through a telephone call. She immediately went to the Ocean Club, where she arrived only minutes before the GNR officers. When she arrived at the resort, she went immediately to apartment 5A, where she met several persons both on the inside and on the outside of the apartment. She went into the apartment but left it right away without speaking to anyone, because she was informed that the GNR officers were at the main reception, so she went to meet them.
When she arrived near the GNR officers, she verified that Gerry, Madeleine’s father, was behind her, in the company of another individual whose identity she doesn’t remember. At that moment, Gerry placed both knees on the floor, hit the floor with both hands, too, placing himself like a praying arab, and shouted out twice in rage, and it was not possible to understand what he said. Then Gerry got back on his feet and accompanied the deponent and the other individual who was in the GNR car, to apartment 5A.
Already on location, the deponent entered the apartment and asked those who were present both for the passports of all family members and photographs of the missing person. The deponent walked Gerry to the GNR car, so he could deliver the requested documents. She states that she carried out these diligences, and other diligences, at the request of the GNR Commander as they used the deponent’s knowledge of the English language to translate the questions that were asked from the missing person’s family members, and the answers that were given. She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.
She also realised that from the very first moment on, both Gerry and the rest of the group members insisted in stating that Madeleine had been abducted, all of them using the word “abducted” instead of missing, and they all showed great interest in informing the press about the situation.The deponent further recalls that she entered the room where Madeleine had been sleeping. She now remembers that the door was closed. The inside of the room was dark. The shutters were down, and light entered only through its holes. The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who accompanied the deponent during this visit, with the GNR officers also present, said that it had been him who had closed the window because the babies were still sleeping inside, which the deponent could verify as true. Gerry mentioned that when he noticed that Madeleine was missing, he had found the window and shutters open, and the curtains fluttering.
The deponent recalls that the cots that were used by the babies were placed in the middle of the room and aligned, and therefore she found it strange that someone could have taken Madeleine from the bed where she was sleeping up to the window, because there was no space to get through. The deponent opened the bedroom’s wardrobe to check if eventually Madeleine was hiding inside. Then they all left the room, and someone closed its door again. The deponent remained in the living room for a while, with the GNR officers, busy lookGerry and the other group members that were there in a frenzy, going in and out and speaking on their mobile phones. She noticed that none of the group members, including the child’s mother and father, were press about the event.ing for her. The mother was sitting on the master bedroom’s bed, the father accompanied the deponent and the GNR officers and the other group members walked in and out and spoke on the phone, soft toys and a blanket from the cots, and also took them to the first floor. The babies’ cots were left onapparently concerned about informing the She thought that the child’s mother was downbeat with the situation, the father showed his concern and also asked both for the press to request, the deponent removed the ly with the mattresses.be alerted and for dogs to be brought in for the search. Concerning the others, she can only recall that Fiona and her husband, Payne, were hysterical about the situation. At a given moment, right after the PJ’s elements arrived, the child’s parents removed the twins from the cots where they still slept, and took them into the apartment on the first floor. At Kate’s
The deponent also wishes to mention that at around 3 a.m. Madeleine’s parents asked for the presence of a priest on location. They didn’t explain the reason why they wanted a priest, but the deponent found the fact strange as there were no indications that the little girl was dead, and that’s the circumstance under which usually the presence of a priest is requested.At a given moment, the deponent translated the deposition from one of the ladies that belonged to the group of English people, namely one that she indicates as being a brunette. This lady told the GNR officers, and the deponent translated, that she had seen a man crossing the road, possibly carrying a child. The deponent found that situation strange because she was convinced that when she saw this man, the lady was positioned in a spot that has no viewing angle to the location where she had seen the man. She doesn’t know exactly where the lady was positioned when she saw the man passing by, but she knows that she indicated that she saw him passing on the street that lies in front of the window to the bedroom where Madeleine was, walking into the direction of the street that leads to the Baptista supermar ket.When questioned about the clothes that the English group members wore that night, she mentions that she only remembers that Fiona wore a green blouse, Gerry wore a dark coloured shirt, and Fiona’s husband wore light-coloured trousers, she thinks cream-coloured.
And she stated nothing further.”
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 19, 2014, 08:04:24 PM
As far as I can see missed nothing out, from questioning the call for a priest - the praying Arab scenario – descriptions of the mother and father just sitting on the bed, not searching – questioning Jane Tanner’s sighting – the insistence that Madeleine had been abducted etc. etc. ... IMO if she had made such a statement on the basis of a report of a child crying we would have heard all about it in graphic detail because she had an opinion on everything else and wasn’t slow to share.
..........nope nothing that I can find in PT news as yet. I believe that article was spanish
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on September 19, 2014, 08:33:56 PM
I was referring to Mrs Fenn's statement and not Silvia Batista.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 19, 2014, 08:49:48 PM
I was referring to Mrs Fenn's statement and not Silvia Batista.
You said I wonder could Mrs Fenn's report of constant crying in apartment 5a on the Tuesday night (Wednesday too according to Madeleine) have influenced Silvia Batista to make an approach on the Thursday? Article and the article relates to s batista and her advice on thurs to mccanns Mrs Fenn didn’t make a formal statement until 20th aug And as I said if SB had spoken to the Mccanns about a babysitter, I rather think it would have been in one of her statements and not Mrs Fenns
Here is Mrs fenns anyway
Processos VOLUME IX pages 2412 to 2145 Witness Statement of Pamela Isobel Fenn 2007.08.20
Included in the files as a witness statement.
Being of British nationality and in spite of living in Portugal, does not have knowledge of the Portuguese language in its oral and written form, therefore a police interpreter is present, UEVE VAN LOOCK. Thus, according to the facts noted in the files, she says that she has lived in the apartment since 2003, which is located on the upper floor, immediately above the room from which the child disappeared.
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted “Daddy, Daddy”, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying. That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the child’s crying. She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night. On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCann’s apartment, a situation which has been told to the police, her cousin even made a photo fit. During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out “we have let her down” which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30. She said that after the mother’s shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search. When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late.
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence. She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCanns, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle. She also said that she never told the McCanns that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.
When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
Having read and approved the statement, she signs, together with the interpreter.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on September 20, 2014, 03:44:59 PM
Mrs Fenn by all accounts was terribly upset by the prolonged crying, so bad that she went out to her friends on the Wednesday evening to get away from it. It is not unreasonable to expect that she complained to Mrs Batista about it in the hope that she would have a word with the child's parents.
Apparently she did and on the same day Madeleine disappeared. That must have gone down like a ton of bricks.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on September 21, 2014, 05:05:31 PM
Mrs Fenn by all accounts was terribly upset by the prolonged crying, so bad that she went out to her friends on the Wednesday evening to get away from it. It is not unreasonable to expect that she complained to Mrs Batista about it in the hope that she would have a word with the child's parents.
Apparently she did and on the same day Madeleine disappeared. That must have gone down like a ton of bricks.
Oh John, you do make me laugh. Where do you get your info from?
Mrs Fenn was only out in the day on the Wednesday.
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.
When do you think Mrs Fenn had time on the Thursday to complain to Baptista. Her niece was there that day and took her out for lunch, getting back at 3.30 pm, and staying till 6.30. Baptista wasn't at work at that time.
What I don't understand is if she was so concerned on the Tuesday night, why didn't she phone the Tapas bar? She rang her friend Edna and also according to what Murat told GNR Officer she rang him.
I don't believe for one minute someone of her age would sit and listen and time how long a child was crying, without doing something about it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2014, 05:18:08 PM
Agreed, on Wed 2nd she was out during the daytime, and at home during the evening and night.
Anyone got a files reference for this please?
Here Pegasus
05_VOLUME_Va_Page_1344
05_VOLUME_Va_Page_1344 Witness Statement
Date: 2007/05/16
Paolo Jorge Carvaihosa da Costa
Occupation: GNR Officer
He has been a GNR officer since 1996. He is a soldier and works at the Lagos GNR post.
On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L.
He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
After having been informed ha began to search the perimeter of the tourist complex. First he revised the perimeter alone and was later accompanied by Officer Pimentel. During his time on the scene he did not talk to anyone.
Neither did he enter the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared. There many people at the scene but nobody particularly drew his attention.
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2014, 05:39:21 PM
Thanks DCI
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on September 21, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
He has been a GNR officer since 1996. He is a soldier and works at the Lagos GNR post.
On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L.
He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
After having been informed ha began to search the perimeter of the tourist complex. First he revised the perimeter alone and was later accompanied by Officer Pimentel. During his time on the scene he did not talk to anyone.
Neither did he enter the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared. There many people at the scene but nobody particularly drew his attention.
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2014, 05:47:34 PM
He has been a GNR officer since 1996. He is a soldier and works at the Lagos GNR post.
On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L.
He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
After having been informed ha began to search the perimeter of the tourist complex. First he revised the perimeter alone and was later accompanied by Officer Pimentel. During his time on the scene he did not talk to anyone.
Neither did he enter the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared. There many people at the scene but nobody particularly drew his attention.
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
I don't follow DCI.
In what way do you think this refers to Mrs Fenn.
Why on earth should she have phoned Robert Murat?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on September 21, 2014, 06:01:43 PM
How strange/ I think "phoned him" should be "Spoken to him" But it is plural "women" and "they
Rm was in the apartment area 4th helping police, maybe she forgot to incude it in her statement. There is a video that I put on here(somewhere) where Mrs fenn says that the papers were all talking rubbish too
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2014, 06:23:01 PM
Mrs Fenn would be a foreigner to GNR. Who else has mentioned a child crying? I believe Mrs Fenn was a friend of Jenny Murat or Murat was lying.
To be honest I don't believe Mrs Fenn's statement to be a true translation of what she actually said. She didn't speak or understand Portuguese.
I don't know what the original file says ... but this translation does not 'flow' ... and the section re. the foreign women reads like an addendum to me and is not imo phrased as a police officer would log information; it really says nothing
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 06:25:13 PM
from 1.22
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on September 21, 2014, 06:28:01 PM
How strange/ I think "phoned him" should be "Spoken to him" But it is plural "women" and "they
Rm was in the apartment area 4th helping police, maybe she forgot to incude it in her statement. There is a video that I put on here(somewhere) where Mrs fenn says that the papers were all talking rubbish too
Yes, I saw that video, when Mrs. Fenn said it was all rubbish. But it was largely ignored.
Her Statement was just another case of a wilfully bad translation, I suspect.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2014, 06:28:19 PM
How strange/ I think "phoned him" should be "Spoken to him" But it is plural "women" and "they
Rm was in the apartment area 4th helping police, maybe she forgot to incude it in her statement. There is a video that I put on here(somewhere) where Mrs fenn says that the papers were all talking rubbish too
Mrs Fenn did not give her statement till 20th August, translation by Ines. How extraordinary that she was not interviewed immediately as a close neighbour ?? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 06:35:19 PM
The GnR was dated 16th may when he said RB stated that the women had given stments .?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on September 21, 2014, 06:35:47 PM
Mrs Fenn did not give her statement till 20th August, translation by Ines. How extraordinary that she was not interviewed immediately as a close neighbour ?? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
I expect that The PJ knew she had been burgled. On the other hand, perhaps they didn't. Who can tell?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2014, 06:36:36 PM
I don't think Mrs Fenn could have made herself much clearer ... at the time the newspapers were full of lurid tales and she certainly disowned the "rubbish" being printed. What a feisty lady she was.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 06:42:01 PM
I expect that The PJ knew she had been burgled. On the other hand, perhaps they didn't. Who can tell?
There is a possibility that crying was heard elsewhere and there was confusion. Was her friend interviewed( she phoned on 1st) IIRC Kate said she was home that night before the reported crying.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on September 21, 2014, 06:42:35 PM
Mrs Fenn did not give her statement till 20th August, translation by Ines. How extraordinary that she was not interviewed immediately as a close neighbour ?? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Exactly, Brietta. That's why I don't believe Mrs Fenn made any such statement, re Madeliene crying to anyone.
Her nieces statement to the PJ was full of errors as she pointed out to Leicester police.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: DCI on September 21, 2014, 06:46:19 PM
There is a possibility that crying was heard elsewhere and there was confusion. Was her friend interviewed( she phoned on 1st) IIRC Kate said she was home that night before the reported crying.
I read somewhere that Mrs Fenn thought the crying she heard on the 3rd May after 10.30 pm was a child, until she realised it was Kate. I'll try and find it.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2014, 06:50:49 PM
Exactly, Brietta. That's why I don't believe Mrs Fenn made any such statement, re Madeliene crying to anyone.
Her nieces statement to the PJ was full of errors as she pointed out to Leicester police.
I found reading that interview very informative. I think it was text book technique, not only in the patience in getting answers, but in getting the correct answers, with the realisation gradually dawning on the interviewee where she was going wrong. Classic!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 21, 2014, 07:02:23 PM
How strange/ I think "phoned him" should be "Spoken to him" But it is plural "women" and "they
Rm was in the apartment area 4th helping police, maybe she forgot to incude it in her statement. There is a video that I put on here(somewhere) where Mrs fenn says that the papers were all talking rubbish too
Original portuguese "umas senhoras estrangeiros ... lhe havium telefonado"
Translation "some foreign women (plural) had telephoned him (RM)".
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 07:25:01 PM
Original portuguese "Que umas senhoras estrangeiros ... lhe havium telefonado"
Translation "That some foreign women (plural) had telephoned him (RM)".
Yes, but the message was conveyed via telephone and if someone said that somebody had spoken to him regarding the crying, the GNR may have understood it as if Someone had phoned RM , Who knows?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2014, 07:27:27 PM
In video posted by Anna On first-floor walkway, first shuttered window she walks past is of 5H, second shuttered window she walks past is of a bedroom of her apartment 5G, this is the only window accessible for entry and exit in the Apr 26th interrupted burglary (because all other windows of 5G are are inaccessible).
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 07:29:27 PM
I've never spoken to a journalist! What has this got to do with her police statement?
So why do you think all these reporters wanted to talk to her, unless it was about the only thing of interest in her statement: The child crying (obviously leaked). What else could she be calling "Rubbish"?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 07:32:19 PM
In video posted by Anna On first-floor walkway, first shuttered window she walks past is of 5H, second shuttered window she walks past is of a bedroom of her apartment 5G, this is the only window accessible for entry and exit in the Apr 26th interrupted burglary (because all other windows of 5G are are inaccessible).
Yes I did notice too. thanks Pegasus.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2014, 07:38:08 PM
Re 5G bedroom window in video above: We can see that the shutter of this window is of exactly the same make and model as the shutter on 5A bedroom window. Therefore we know that this shutter, like the 5A bedroom shutter, has no means to lock the shutter down. So this shutter, like 5A bedroom shutter, can be lifted from the outside.
I believe that entry on Apr 26th was through this window.
Next to find a photo of the accessible window of 5L - I predict the shutter will be same make and model (and therefore liftable from the outside).
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Eleanor on September 21, 2014, 07:42:31 PM
Re 5G bedroom window in video above: We can see that the shutter of this window is of exactly the same make and model as the shutter on 5A bedroom window. Therefore we know that this shutter, like the 5A bedroom shutter, has no means to lock the shutter down. So this shutter, like 5A bedroom shutter, can be lifted from the outside.
I believe that entry on Apr 26th was through this window.
Next to find a photo of the accessible window of 5L - I predict the shutter will be same make and model (and therefore liftable from the outside).
We have much to thank you for.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Anna on September 21, 2014, 08:16:22 PM
Re 5G bedroom window in video above: We can see that the shutter of this window is of exactly the same make and model as the shutter on 5A bedroom window. Therefore we know that this shutter, like the 5A bedroom shutter, has no means to lock the shutter down. So this shutter, like 5A bedroom shutter, can be lifted from the outside.
I believe that entry on Apr 26th was through this window.
Next to find a photo of the accessible window of 5L - I predict the shutter will be same make and model (and therefore liftable from the outside).
You are extremely thorough, Pegasis, which we are all grateful for. Mrs Fenn and the police seem to think the burglar had a key as there is no sign of a break in( same as 5A), but if he did go in through the door, he must have opened the window in readiness for an escape, or I'm sure that Mrs F would have caught him. She looked to move fairly well in the video. I think it very sad that a lady of her years was hounded by the press.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2014, 08:44:51 PM
People make the assumption that because there was no sign of forced entry, the burglar must have had a key. At two flats the crime scenes even featured a very obvious open metalshutter and window, yet still people insist he must have had a key.
The window shutters have no lock or bolt. The window does not auto-lock. If the occupant closes the metal shutter, and closes the window, but forgets to also press the window lock button, then entry through closed shutter and closed window is an easy quick job for any burglar.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on September 21, 2014, 10:47:52 PM
People make the assumption that because there was no sign of forced entry, the burglar must have had a key. At two flats the crime scenes even featured a very obvious open metalshutter and window, yet still people insist he must have had a key.
The window shutters have no lock or bolt. The window does not auto-lock. If the occupant closes the metal shutter, and closes the window, but forgets to also press the window lock button, then entry through closed shutter and closed window is an easy quick job for any burglar.
I dont know about in the other flats Pegasus, but the open part of the window in 5A is very narrow for anyone to get thru. It is not impossible for a slim guy, but it would be quite tricky ... and unless the intruder were prepared to fall into the room headfirst, there would be scratchy foot marks all over the sill. Falling in headfirst involves noise.
Me thinks he had a key and went thru the front door
In houses there is a front and back door. A burglar would unlock the other door, ready for escape in case of the owner returning unexpectedly. In the case of an apartment, usually there is no backdoor, so a window would be opened in case needed for escape.
Only my opinion
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2014, 11:08:40 PM
I dont know about in the other flats Pegasus, but the open part of the window in 5A is very narrow for anyone to get thru. It is not impossible for a slim guy, but it would be quite tricky ... and unless the intruder were prepared to fall into the room headfirst, there would be scratchy foot marks all over the sill. Falling in headfirst involves noise.
Me thinks he had a key and went thru the front door
In houses there is a front and back door. A burglar would unlock the other door, ready for escape in case of the owner returning unexpectedly. In the case of an apartment, usually there is no backdoor, so a window would be opened in case needed for escape.
Only my opinion
But 5A does have doors at both ends. If an intruder entered through the wooden door, why would he then from inside open a window which is adjacent to the wooden door? If he heard one of the parents approaching the wooden door, that window would be a silly escape route, as he would climb out right in front of them. He would do better to forget the window and instead go unbolt the lounge balcony door from inside - that would give him an escape route at both ends of apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on September 21, 2014, 11:25:17 PM
But 5A does have a "back door". You are suggesting an intruder entered through the wooden door with a key. If an intruder entered through the wooden door, why would he then from inside open a window which is next to the front door? If he heard one of the parents approaching the front door, that window would be a silly escape route as he would climb out right in front of them.
I agree that 5A does have a back door, two if we include the parents patio doors.
But the fact is that historically, the parents have always used that back door (patio door) to enter the apartment. If the abductor was in the the childrens room he had to either scramble out of the window (and unless he were tiny it would be a scramble) .... or run across the sitting room to the front door ... and be seen
However if the parents changed their normal route, and were coming via the front door, he would be able to see them coming well in advance via that open window with raised shutters.
Altho they would be unlikely to see him, because they would be looking in the direction they were walking ... and the intruder would be out of their periferel vision ... the converse is not true.
The parents would have been illuminated by the street lights and he would be able to see their body shapes even thru the lower twigs of the trees, walking along the footpath ... and that would have given him plenty of toime to get away thru the patio doors.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2014, 12:02:32 AM
I agree that 5A does have a back door, two if we include the parents patio doors.
But the fact is that historically, the parents have always used that back door (patio door) to enter the apartment. If the abductor was in the the childrens room he had to either scramble out of the window (and unless he were tiny it would be a scramble) .... or run across the sitting room to the front door ... and be seen
However if the parents changed their normal route, and were coming via the front door, he would be able to see them coming well in advance via that open window with raised shutters.
Altho they would be unlikely to see him, because they would be looking in the direction they were walking ... and the intruder would be out of their periferel vision ... the converse is not true.
The parents would have been illuminated by the street lights and he would be able to see their body shapes even thru the lower twigs of the trees, walking along the footpath ... and that would have given him plenty of toime to get away thru the patio doors.
But how would he know the lounge balcony door was unlocked?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on September 22, 2014, 01:24:30 AM
If you have perps watching continuously the whole week night and day then why didn't they make use of the long check gap on Wednesday night?
There has a suggestion that someone did try on the Wednesday night. Not sure of the details though.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 22, 2014, 08:18:37 PM
Lol at duty of care for guests... I mean what about the parents duty of care...oh thats right they didn't have one either. But it's good to lamp others with the blame- everyone else's fault!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 23, 2014, 12:38:21 AM
A former Mark Warner nanny, Charlotte Pennington, said she was told about reports of a man hanging around the resort when she started work at the Ocean Club this year.
She said: "I did know that a complaint had been made. We were told about it when we arrived.
"We were told we shouldn't walk around by ourselves, and that we should lock our apartments because there had been some break-ins. They told us not to tell the guests."
Mark Warner refused to comment because of the ongoing police investigation.
Seems MW did know about the level of criminality occurring in PDL ... must have been discrete security measures they could have put in place to safeguard their guests.
For example, special arrangements were made to allow the McCann party to book their table as they did; it was known they had left their children in the apartment; if staff were warned about the dangers of strangers hanging around would it not have been a good idea to tip the wink especially to holidaymakers who were running a listening service for their children and who tragically felt it was safe to do so.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: John on September 24, 2014, 07:38:06 PM
Oh John, you do make me laugh. Where do you get your info from?
Mrs Fenn was only out in the day on the Wednesday.
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.
When do you think Mrs Fenn had time on the Thursday to complain to Baptista. Her niece was there that day and took her out for lunch, getting back at 3.30 pm, and staying till 6.30. Baptista wasn't at work at that time.
What I don't understand is if she was so concerned on the Tuesday night, why didn't she phone the Tapas bar? She rang her friend Edna and also according to what Murat told GNR Officer she rang him.
I don't believe for one minute someone of her age would sit and listen and time how long a child was crying, without doing something about it.
Which part of "she was only home at night" don't you understand DCI? Mrs Fenn was out all day and evening with her friend Edna Glyn, a friend whom some try to say doesn't even exist but we all know why this particular myth has been spawned don't we?
The Wednesday night was the night of the extended boozing session across at the tapas bar too if I recall correctly, a session which extended beyond midnight. And also the night when Kate chose to sleep in the children's room and not with Gerry.
Wasn't it the next morning when little Madeleine complained about being left alone and her and Sean crying? No wonder Mrs Fenn didn't hear that episode because she was AWAY FROM HOME!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 24, 2014, 07:54:28 PM
Which part of "she was only home at night" don't you understand DCI? Mrs Fenn was out all day and evening with her friend Edna Glyn, a friend whom some try to say doesn't even exist but we all know why this particular myth has been spawned don't we?
The Wednesday night was the night of the extended boozing session across at the tapas bar too if I recall correctly, a session which extended beyond midnight. And also the night when Kate chose to sleep in the children's room and not with Gerry.
Wasn't it the next morning when little Madeleine complained about being left alone and her and Sean crying? No wonder Mrs Fenn didn't hear that episode because she was AWAY FROM HOME!
Neither did Rachel and she was on the other side of the wall to the kids room. Crying was on TUE. Stain appeared on WED. Child gone THUR.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2014, 10:29:54 PM
Which part of "she was only home at night" don't you understand DCI? Mrs Fenn was out all day and evening with her friend Edna Glyn, a friend whom some try to say doesn't even exist but we all know why this particular myth has been spawned don't we?
The Wednesday night was the night of the extended boozing session across at the tapas bar too if I recall correctly, a session which extended beyond midnight. And also the night when Kate chose to sleep in the children's room and not with Gerry.
Wasn't it the next morning when little Madeleine complained about being left alone and her and Sean crying? No wonder Mrs Fenn didn't hear that episode because she was AWAY FROM HOME!
PF phoned EG after 11pm on the night she heard the extended crying. The actual portuguese verb in the written statement is "ligou a" which in this context and especially at that late hour clearly means "called" in the sense "telephoned". No visit to EG is mentioned, not on the 2nd, nor on any other day. PF was out during the day on the 2nd, but it seems obvious IMO that at that age she would have arrived home before 10.15pm.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2014, 11:05:45 PM
PF phoned EG after 11pm on the night she heard the extended crying. The actual portuguese verb in the written statement is "ligou a" which in this context and especially at that late hour clearly means "called" in the sense "telephoned". No visit to EG is mentioned, not on the 2nd, nor on any other day. PF was out during the day on the 2nd, but it seems obvious IMO that at that age she would have arrived home before 10.15pm.
Mrs Fenn's statement is dated 20th of August 2007: there is no statement from the friend she phoned.
People can be mistaken when trying to remember the precise date of momentous events: for example Mrs Fenn's neice Carol Tranmer made a rogatory statement on 15th of May 2008 in which she realised that she had made mistakes in the dates in her original statement to Leics police on 8th May 2007 regarding events which had happened while visiting her aunt.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2014, 06:45:39 PM
perhaps its not as simple as posters think....in 50 years of butlins style baby listening..not one serious incident reported...
in 50 years how many children have been seriously assaulted and even died in registered nurseries
Just came across the fact that Butlins stopped Baby Listening services in 1991 due to the children's act of 1989.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2014, 06:53:38 PM
Just came across the fact that Butlins stopped Baby Listening services in 1991 due to the children's act of 1989.
It would seem some posters must live in areas which remain with village scribes, village readers and cleft stick runners ....if you see what I mean 8(0(*
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2014, 07:09:45 PM
Just came across the fact that Butlins stopped Baby Listening services in 1991 due to the children's act of 1989.
then you will have a quote from butlins mentioning the childrens act....you wont of course because you are talking BS
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2014, 07:16:36 PM
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
predictable that your statement was wrong...you are quoting the opinion of a blogger as fact... NO No theres no child listening service like there used to be. In fact if you look at the terms and conditions it clearly states no children under 5 should be left alone, and that that child facilities arent meant as child minding services. They havent done a baby listening service since 1991 when it was out lawed by the then governement as part of a new childrens act.
so according to this its ok for over 5s
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2014, 07:28:20 PM
predictable that your statement was wrong...you are quoting the opinion of a blogger as fact... NO No theres no child listening service like there used to be. In fact if you look at the terms and conditions it clearly states no children under 5 should be left alone, and that that child facilities arent meant as child minding services. They havent done a baby listening service since 1991 when it was out lawed by the then governement as part of a new childrens act.
so according to this its ok for over 5s
It is a site for Butlins fans, they all appear to agree that it stopped in the early 90s and that the stopping was related to the aforementioned Children's Act. So unless you are suggesting they are making it up?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2014, 07:32:05 PM
It is a site for Butlins fans, they all appear to agree that it stopped in the early 90s and that the stopping was related to the aforementioned Children's Act. So unless you are suggesting they are making it up?
listening service stopped but according to this postr butlins condones the leaving alone of the over 5s....
try and be more accurate...the blog post...thats all it is.....stated that the act outlawed the baby listening service..that part I don't believe
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2014, 07:34:22 PM
They stopped it because leaving a child half a mile away alone in a chalet was deemed unsafe...if the chalets were all 50 yds away they would probably still be doing it
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2014, 07:44:05 PM
They stopped it because leaving a child half a mile away alone in a chalet was deemed unsafe...if the chalets were all 50 yds away they would probably still be doing it
50 yards away from where precisely ? Are you trying to subconsciously supplant the notion that apartment 5a was 50 yards away from the tapas restaurant ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2014, 08:30:32 PM
50 yards away from where precisely ? Are you trying to subconsciously supplant the notion that apartment 5a was 50 yards away from the tapas restaurant ?
Yes it was, crow flies.
Well about 50 metres, which is a midgen further.
I think that most people on this forum now accept that.
Crow flies is the important measurement for hearing sounds and visual things
If you dont believe it, try using Google Earth to check the distance.
IIRC, walking was about 78 metres to the patio doors from where the Tapas group sat in the restaurant.
NOT 150 or 230 metres as was falsely put about early on. That was Propaganda of the worst type :rolls eyes: and created many Mccann damaging myths.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2014, 09:14:34 PM
I am fairly that Butlins didn't want to meet the legal requirements of the act (see section X).
as I have said already...the post says that the act outlawed baby listening...as this service is alive and well at hotels then I don't accept that. What I have said is that during Butlins babylistening and hotel babylistening .....not one child has come to serious harm
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2014, 09:18:04 PM
I think that most people on this forum now accept that.
Crow flies is the important measurement for hearing sounds and visual things
If you dont believe it, try using Google Earth to check the distance.
IIRC, walking was about 78 metres to the patio doors from where the Tapas group sat in the restaurant.
NOT 150 or 230 metres as was falsely put about early on. That was Propaganda of the worst type :rolls eyes: and created many Mccann damaging myths.
This of course is true, however you fail to mention the important influence that physical obstructions and ambient sound will have. At 50 metres over water with no other ambient interference conversations may be heard clear as a bell. 50 metres away whilst sitting in a busy restaurant ? Like in your back garden?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 26, 2014, 09:19:07 PM
I agree with you, the distance of only 50 metres is completely relevant.
But Stephen, don't kid yourself, they were in what was effectively their back garden and only about 50 metres away.
Uniquely amongst the Tapas group, their apartment was well illuminated at the back by the street lamp immediately opposite.
They had a good view of it.
Kate never she had her back to it. Nobody was watching it. The crying incident wouldn't have crossed her mind again she said to Sandra in that interview. That's BS when she's talking about it at the table and leaving them in an unlocked apartment. Not looking to check the children before closing the bedroom door. Their actions are so abnormal that it can't be believed.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2014, 09:25:57 PM
Kate never she had her back to it. Nobody was watching it.
The group were friends, they were watching for each other
As friends do
Anyway, almost without doubt, entrance and exit were thru the front door, which was deeply recessed, in the dark and completely out of view from anyone. It was at a dead end, so no-one passed by
Oh and I think I read that the outside 'porch' light was broken
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 26, 2014, 09:27:51 PM
It was dumb. Leaving your kids 50 metres away as the crow flies which is incidentally over 160 feet away. You know there are certain journeys by car that as the crow flies do not sound far away at all, but to get there your journey is fact doubled even tripled. Fact is there is a body of water in the way. Anyway, regardless they did not have clear line of sight and they would not be able to hear anything from there. Also, if you are talking about an abduction scenario and considering Madeleine is missing it was indeed careless as someone popped in there unseen and snatched a child!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 26, 2014, 09:29:22 PM
The group were friends, they were watching for each other
As friends do
Anyway, almost without doubt, entrance and exit were thru the front door, which was deeply recessed, in the dark and completely out of view from anyone. It was at a dead end, so no-one passed by
Oh and I think I read that the outside 'porch' light was broken
Only you can be that naive. She was worried at the table but her actions tell a different story. If she was worried it would be locked and she definitely would be facing it and not relying on others.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2014, 09:37:45 PM
Only you can be that naive. She was worried at the table but her actions tell a different story. If she was worried it would be locked and she definitely would be facing it and not relying on others.
Maybe they took turns to rotate around the table? We dont know
We used to be members of a group that met regularly for dinner at each others houses. At some of these dinners we were required to change places every course ... to chat with a variety of friends
Seems this group didn't change between courses, but they may have taken different seata each night they were there. We just dont know
BUT, whichever, friends would immediately inform Kate and Gerry at any unexpeted movement on the steps up or by their patio windows. They had a good view.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 26, 2014, 09:48:08 PM
Wasn't a clear view according to the Channel 4 dispatches documentary.
From 12:10 onwards:
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 10:16:03 PM
The child bedroom was completely invisible and out of earshot, indisputably.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 26, 2014, 10:18:20 PM
Anyway, I guess the McCanns were not guilty of negligence else they would have been tried. Ethically speaking: many from what I've read don't find this ok. If i was to do this and sure everyone makes slip ups I would definitely think I was doing something which was not cool. Also, The McCanns are in something of a bind when they are questioned and i'm purely guessing, but saying too much could have open them up to possible criminal negligence proceedings. They must have been concerned about this at least I imagine in the early days...
The stolen key in the front door seems possible. Don't know that theory but seeing as resort employees may know the McCanns leave their children alone at the apartments at night some opportunist could steal a key i suppose.. but there was no stolen key I'm guess so that makes it a bit redundant...
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on October 27, 2014, 12:37:01 AM
Yet neither parent "heard" either Madeleine or Sean crying continuously the previous night ? Doesn't stack up does it ?
Rachael Oldfield was next door for the whole of the previous night. If there had been any prolonged crying from next door she would have heard it. Agreed?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2014, 12:46:27 AM
Wasn't a clear view according to the Channel 4 dispatches documentary.
From 12:10 onwards:
This video is disgraceful. It is full of disinformation and lies.
looking at the scene from 12.10 onwards we see a photograph and are told that this is the view the Mccann group had from the Tapas Bar.
1) They weren't eating in the bar, they were eating in the restaurant which had a totally different view as it was directly opposite the apartments. The restaurant is much, much closer (50 metres) and has a much more direct view into the patio area.
2) The photo referred to [12.54 - 13.40 approx] is not even taken from the tapas bar, let alone the much closer restaurant where The Mccanns sat. It is actually taken from the grass area immediately adjacent to the most westerly tennis court
It is taken from absolutely the farthest point that the photographer could get away from 5A and the angle of the shot is completely wrong. Because it is so sharp an angle the patio window is hidden. From the correct shot position, most of the patio window is in view. You can even see most of the end of block 5 on it. The Tapas Restaurant did not go beyond the end of block 5.
Here we have an example of blatent lies designed to put out disinformation and bad propaganda for the Mccanns.
Someone is paying for and organizing all these lies and propaganda. Someone who doesn't want Madeleine found ... and prefers for the Mccanns to unjustly take the rap rather than have Madeleine found and the perp discovered
No wonder that innocent people have been duped into blaming the Mccanns when such propaganda is being churned out and deliberately decimated far and wide
...................
And FGS, someone tell her that a tracing of a picture carefully shaded in is NOT Art. She is violating Madeleines image with such a rubbishy tracing.
She is quite good at painting phoney wood on garage doors if someone is so tasteless that they want it ...and that is it,
She is just a sort of craftswoman ... nothing more.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2014, 12:48:23 AM
Rachael Oldfield was next door for the whole of the previous night. If there had been any prolonged crying from next door she would have heard it. Agreed?
Yet Madeleine had to ask her Mummy why she hadn't come to her aid when she and Sean were crying continuously ? As per Kate's statement ? Either Kate is lying or Rachael didn't hear, agreed? Thankfully Pamela Fenn DID hear !
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on October 27, 2014, 12:55:30 AM
Yet Madeleine had to ask her Mummy why she hadn't come to her aid when she and Sean were crying continuously ? As per Kate's statement ? Either Kate is lying or Rachael didn't hear, agreed? Thankfully Pamela Fenn DID hear !
Maybe you should read the files. Mrs. Fenn claimed to have heard ONE child crying not two, and on the 1st not the 2nd May.
If you believe Mrs Fenn could hear a child crying below, then why would you doubt that Rachael Oldfield would hear children crying next door? That makes no sense.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on October 27, 2014, 01:01:49 AM
Maybe you should read the files. Mrs. Fenn claimed to have heard ONE child crying not two, and on the 1st not the 2nd May.
If you believe Mrs Fenn could hear a child crying below, then why would you doubt that Rachael Oldfield would hear children crying next door? That makes no sense.
Why did Kate state that Madeleine asked why she didn't come when she AND Sean were crying ? I would believe an independent witness 99% of the time btw !
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on October 27, 2014, 01:07:40 AM
Why did Kate state that Madeleine asked why she didn't come when she AND Sean were crying ? I would believe an independent witness 99% of the time btw !
Why don't you acknowledge that you were wrong about Mrs Fenn and that you had got the dates wrong? Also Mrs Fenn heard one child crying NOT two. How do you link that to Madeleine saying she and Sean were crying?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 27, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
It's a channel 4 despatches documentary made shortly before the DNA test results were due back from the UK I believe. I didn't actually want to post a hideho video but I could not find a link to the documentary anywhere else. IMO this is a quality documentary, but you have to consider it was made some time ago and the time period...
I'll have a look again at the video when I have a sec and think about your points!
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on October 27, 2014, 01:24:23 AM
Why did Kate state that Madeleine asked why she didn't come when she AND Sean were crying ? I would believe an independent witness 99% of the time btw !
In their statements Bridget O’Donnel and Jes Wilkins are recorded as saying that their child had been unwell and had cried continually for two nights.
Mrs Fenn made her statement on the 20th of August 2007, which is a considerable time after the event for such a material witness.
There is absolutely no way of knowing what she heard and even more important … when she may have heard it.
Therefore it is ridiculous to claim it was either Madeleine or her siblings as there is absolutely no evidence to support that.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on October 27, 2014, 01:26:28 AM
In their statements Bridget O’Donnel and Jes Wilkins are recorded as saying that their child had been unwell and had cried continually for two nights.
Mrs Fenn made her statement on the 20th of August 2007, which is a considerable time after the event for such a material witness.
There is absolutely no way of knowing what she heard and even more important … when she may have heard it.
Therefore it is ridiculous to claim it was either Madeleine or her siblings as there is absolutely no evidence to support that.
Agreed. and absolutely incredible that the PJ didn't see fit to interview the McCanns 'next door neighbour' as a matter of urgency. Total incompetence IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on October 27, 2014, 01:40:13 AM
I shall repeat the question-
Did Kate McCann state that Madeleine asked her why she did not come to her and Sean's aid when they were crying continuously, Yes or No ?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 27, 2014, 01:41:18 AM
Video here of her answering the question:
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Benice on October 27, 2014, 01:42:44 AM
Did Kate McCann state that Madeleine asked her why she did not come to her and Sean's aid when they were crying continuously, Yes or No ?
IIRC the mother did not say "continuously". The witness is telling the truth and was unaware of the crying when it was happening.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: carlymichelle on October 27, 2014, 06:28:49 AM
intresting forum from 2004 http://www.butlins-memories.com/forums/showthread.php?3002-Do-Babies-Still-Cry&s=d8611544070ece0ddba185399c688ff4
dave is always going on about how butlins children were left well they have not had a baby listerner service since 1991!!! and the rules there
NO No theres no child listening service like there used to be. In fact if you look at the terms and conditions it clearly states no children under 5 should be left alone, and that that child facilities arent meant as child minding services. They havent done a baby listening service since 1991 when it was out lawed by the then governement as part of a new childrens act.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2014, 07:09:57 AM
intresting forum from 2004 http://www.butlins-memories.com/forums/showthread.php?3002-Do-Babies-Still-Cry&s=d8611544070ece0ddba185399c688ff4
dave is always going on about how butlins children were left well they have not had a baby listerner service since 1991!!! and the rules there
NO No theres no child listening service like there used to be. In fact if you look at the terms and conditions it clearly states no children under 5 should be left alone, and that that child facilities arent meant as child minding services. They havent done a baby listening service since 1991 when it was out lawed by the then governement as part of a new childrens act.
so butlins says its ok to leave children over 5..........you need to read things before you post them
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2014, 07:12:00 AM
It's a channel 4 despatches documentary made shortly before the DNA test results were due back from the UK I believe. I didn't actually want to post a hideho video but I could not find a link to the documentary anywhere else. IMO this is a quality documentary, but you have to consider it was made some time ago and the time period...
I'll have a look again at the video when I have a sec and think about your points!
This quality video says an abduction would have been very easy to carry out
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2014, 10:53:31 AM
They were effectively in their OWN garden Carly
The only side of the building that was unlocked was overlooked by them and their group from 50 metres away.
It was well illuminated by the street lamp immediately opposite
Amaral himself said that no abductor would attempt to go into the apartment with the parents so close and overlooking it.
Are you questioning Amarals judgement?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 27, 2014, 11:04:14 AM
The only side of the building that was unlocked was overlooked by them and their group from 50 metres away.
It was well illuminated by the street lamp immediately opposite
Amaral himself said that no abductor would attempt to go into the apartment with the parents so close and overlooking it.
Are you questioning Amarals judgement?
Their 'own garden' was in Rothley seemingly so they weren't effectively in it. They were in a resort, a public place, albeit 60 metres as the crow flies from their apartment but as every parent knows, that might as well have been 60 miles had one of the youngsters had an accident. Leaving three young children under 4 alone at night in unfamiliar surroundings was a recipe for disaster and whats more, the McCann's agree.
As far as Mark Warner and the Ocean Club management are concerned my own belief is that although they laid on excellent child minding facilities, they failed to warn guests that they should lock up their apartments properly and should not leave children unattended.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 27, 2014, 11:48:08 AM
Here is the actual picture from the documentary. They state the tapas bar but from this I believe they mean restaurant and bar. As in the next sentence the guy say it is more or less from the table they were sitting at.
Sadie makes a point that they are too far over - perhaps... looking at the maps and the location of the resturant this does not seem that wrong to me...
Tapas restaurant and bar including table location:
Their 'own garden' was in Rothley seemingly so they weren't effectively in it. They were in a resort, a public place, albeit 60 metres as the crow flies from their apartment but as every parent knows, that might as well have been 60 miles had one of the youngsters had an accident. Leaving three young children under 4 alone at night in unfamiliar surroundings was a recipe for disaster and whats more, the McCann's agree.
As far as Mark Warner and the Ocean Club management are concerned my own belief is that although they laid on excellent child minding facilities, they failed to warn guests that they should lock up their apartments properly and should not leave children unattended.
What does the sticker note on the patio door say? Doesn't it say to keep locked if unattended?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2014, 11:57:08 AM
The person who took this picture was in the pool? there were bushes covering the apartment they could not see....but well, if they were right next to the children this brings us to the question...How the hell did this abduction take place? if they were soooooooooooooo close why did they not hear Maddie or Sean crying?
So we are all agreed, the children were well looked after and no abductor could have penetrated the parents fail safe security.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 27, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
It's just the lens that is used on the camera and the viewfinder has just cropped out the edge of pool nearest the camera imo... the camera lens seems to distort the feeling of perspective a bit thereby exaggerating the distance a bit but it's hard to see that they could see much at all. Even moving over somewhat in line with their apartment would not offer a clear view imo though more would of course be visible...
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2014, 12:05:23 PM
It's just the lens that is used on the camera and the viewfinder has just cropped out the edge of pool nearest the camera imo...
Oh, thanks Pooks. I posted that before your marked picture was available for me to see. It is still too far away, a pool is in the way, and hey did admit to taking the long way round to check.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: John on October 27, 2014, 12:40:29 PM
What does the sticker note on the patio door say? Doesn't it say to keep locked if unattended?
Absolutely but the resort managers knew there was a history of break-ins so they had a moral responsibility to their guests to reinforce the window message whilst understandably at the same time not creating any sort of alarm.
Given the history at the complex the very least there should have been was some form of security presence and CCTV but alas, commercial considerations and interests were deemed a greater priority over client security. Mark Warner staff even complained about the strangers in the gardens and hanging about outside in the shadows but still, nothing was done.
A pretty poor show all considered.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 27, 2014, 12:44:14 PM
Absolutely but the resort managers knew there was a history of break-ins so they had a moral responsibility to their guests to reinforce the window message whilst understandably at the same time not creating any sort of alarm.
Given the history at the complex the very least there should have been was some form of security presence and CCTV but alas, commercial considerations were deemed a greater priority over client security. Mark Warner staff even complained about the strangers in the gardens and hanging about outside in the shadows but still, nothing was done.
These are supposed to be intelligent doctors who were in their late 30s. Doctors should know about not leaving young children unattended and especially in an unlocked apartment. Don't they go through any training. They took the risk. No other couple left their patio door unlocked.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2014, 12:50:48 PM
MW Provided baby sitting service. They could have taken the children with them out for dinner- as we as a family always do. Security would have been no better than the families checking..
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2014, 01:04:29 PM
I don't think that having the children with them for more than an hour or two a day was part of their holiday concept.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 27, 2014, 02:39:28 PM
Unfortunately it does appear to be the case. 8(8-))
A family holiday, does not mean, offloading them onto strangers in the creche.
........and how could you trust strangers ?
After all, you don't know who they are. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 27, 2014, 03:31:25 PM
A family holiday, does not mean, offloading them onto strangers in the creche.
........and how could you trust strangers ?
After all, you don't know who they are. 8(0(*
One would hope that Mark Warner had carried out background checks on staff. Not that that is any great shakes. Dodgy people tend to hide their intentions rather than hide themselves.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2014, 04:17:51 PM
These are supposed to be intelligent doctors who were in their late 30s. Doctors should know about not leaving young children unattended and especially in an unlocked apartment. Don't they go through any training. They took the risk. No other couple left their patio door unlocked.
None of the other couples left their patio door unlocked.
Why?
Because none of them had a street light shining directly on their patio. They were in datkess, the Mccanns were in light Also they all had to walk along a dark unlit alleyway for varying distances and then go thru dark back gardens and up unlit steps.
The Mccanns situation was different. they had the security of light. at the back of their apartment whilsh having an extremely dark hidden bogey hole for their front entrance
The rest of the group also had a lit hallway or landing for their front doors
Doesn't need rocket science to see why the Mccanns chose to use their well lit rear patio doors whilst the rest chose their well lit front doors.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: stephen25000 on October 27, 2014, 04:30:06 PM
None of the other couples left their patio door unlocked.
Why?
Because none of them had a street light shining directly on their patio. They were in datkess, the Mccanns were in light Also they all had to walk along a dark unlit alleyway for varying distances and then go thru dark back gardens and up unlit steps.
The Mccanns situation was different. they had the security of light. at the back of their apartment whilsh having an extremely dark hidden bogey hole for their front entrance
The rest of the group also had a lit hallway or landing for their front doors
Doesn't need rocket science to see why the Mccanns chose to use their well lit rear patio doors whilst the rest chose their well lit front doors.
So having a 'light' on is an excuse for not locking a door. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 27, 2014, 04:38:09 PM
So having a 'light' on is an excuse for not locking a door. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
In all the chat on the thread about why didn't Gerald and Jeremy see Jane we were lead to believe the street lights should more accurately be described as "darks". 8(>((
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 27, 2014, 04:42:41 PM
None of the other couples left their patio door unlocked.
Why?
Because none of them had a street light shining directly on their patio. They were in datkess, the Mccanns were in light Also they all had to walk along a dark unlit alleyway for varying distances and then go thru dark back gardens and up unlit steps.
The Mccanns situation was different. they had the security of light. at the back of their apartment whilsh having an extremely dark hidden bogey hole for their front entrance
The rest of the group also had a lit hallway or landing for their front doors
Doesn't need rocket science to see why the Mccanns chose to use their well lit rear patio doors whilst the rest chose their well lit front doors.
Everyone else had to go the long way and walk through the car park to check on their children. Why? Because they locked the patio door. Neglect charges are nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2014, 06:22:58 PM
Everyone else had to go the long way and walk through the car park to check on their children. Why? Because they locked the patio door. Neglect charges are nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Yep, they locked their patio doors because they had to negotiate a dark unlit alleyway, garden and steps up to get to their patio doors. Also their patio doors were vulnerable to burglary cos they were in the dark with no-one passing by..
The Mccanns patio entrance, to the contrary, was well lit and clearly visible to the Tapas restaurant. Also people walked past ... and the patio area could be seen from a number of villas, behind the little car park + the ones right opposite opposite
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 27, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
Yep, they locked their patio doors because they had to negotiate a dark unlit alleyway, garden and steps up to get to their patio doors. Also their patio doors were vulnerable to burglary cos they were in the dark with no-one passing by..
The Mccanns patio entrance, to the contrary, was well lit and clearly visible to the Tapas restaurant. Also people walked past ... and the patio area could be seen from a number of villas, behind the little car park + the ones right opposite opposite
BS they locked up because their children were inside.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2014, 08:28:03 PM
In all the chat on the thread about why didn't Gerald and Jeremy see Jane we were lead to believe the street lights should more accurately be described as "darks". 8(>((
When the Carpenter family left the tapas restaurant which was shortly after Jane passed the two men in the street and before the alarm was raised, there were vehicles parked in the street.
SC mentions in his rogatory statement that he had difficulty crossing the road as his vision was blocked by them.
Unfortunately the CCTV situated at the supermarket, which would have covered that area, was not working ... or all might have been revealed.
Similarly if there had been CCTV in the tapas restaurant as there was in the Millennium restaurant there would have been no problem with timelines and the police could have directed their exertions elsewhere when that was established.
However, I presume that anyone whether abductor or burglar would have been aware of security measures in place and how to avoid being captured on CCTV where it was in operation.
Perhaps MW should have investigated installation as a security measure given the spread out nature of the resort and the fact it was not ‘self contained’.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2014, 11:46:07 PM
In all the chat on the thread about why didn't Gerald and Jeremy see Jane we were lead to believe the street lights should more accurately be described as "darks". 8(>((
The head of the street lamp immediately opposite was virtually the same height as the arched window at the street side of the patio area to 5a ensuring that it was bathed in a fair light. Against the darkness anyone would be spotted going in there to the sitting room.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 28, 2014, 12:36:06 AM
Here is the actual picture from the documentary. They state the tapas bar but from this I believe they mean restaurant and bar. As in the next sentence the guy say it is more or less from the table they were sitting at.
Sadie makes a point that they are too far over - perhaps... looking at the maps and the location of the resturant this does not seem that wrong to me...
Tapas restaurant and bar including table location:
It is totally wrong your Lordship ?{)(**. 8(0(* Totally the wrong angle and double the distance. Imo it amounts to fraud to have taken the photo from as far away as possible and at completely the wrong angle. Disinformation ?designed to undermine The Mccanns ... or was it accidental? I think not, but if not then the man did not use his brain.
Sorry to bring this old photo out, but it illustrates the true position much better
immediately to the rear of the pool is the tapas restaurant. The building with the big windows. When we were there we sat in the LH window. The Mccann group sat in the RH window.
At the time, on May 3rd, the bushes had been freshly trimmed as can be seen from contemporaraqy photos. Here the bushes have grown somewhat so on this photo, the view from the Tapas is not anything like as good as the Mccanns had on the night of May 3rd.
As I said before, the photo in that gawd awful deceptive Dispatches program are a falsification of facts. Propaganda.
It is time that the police started sorting the lies out on the internet and prosecuting the perpetrators.
Btw, John. I see that you have now increased the viewing distance, Tapas group to patio windows from a little over 50 mertres to 60 metres. You must have made a mistake.
Anyone can check it so easily on GE.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: lordpookles on October 28, 2014, 01:16:09 AM
Thanks for the pic. Yeah I think I agree it seems to be further over. It' was unfortunate in the documentary that they could not gain access to that restaurant and the detectives in the doc make reference to umbrellas/bushes etc which could affect the view. It's interesting because an abductor could still be concealed if he was to sneak in crouched down and perhaps only exposed for a moment when he goes in the patio doors. If it was an abduction - 2 or more people involved makes sense imo. For instance you would open the window and pass the child through to someone outside and go out the front door perhaps...
BTW I think the documentary on the whole was good. seems like some veteran detectives/experts running through a few possible theories and bear in the mind the time it was made...
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on October 28, 2014, 08:15:16 AM
immediately to the rear of the pool is the tapas restaurant. The building with the big windows. When we were there we sat in the LH window. The Mccann group sat in the RH window.
At the time, on May 3rd, the bushes had been freshly trimmed as can be seen from contemporary photos. Here the bushes have grown somewhat so on this photo, the view from the Tapas is not anything like as good as the Mccanns had on the night of May 3rd.)
The spot that the controversial photograph of 5A was taken from, Lord P, is so far to the right, that it not even on the picture above. It is right off picture and gives a totally incorrect view .... disinformation It was taken from the very extremity of the garden ... as far away as possible. The same is true of virtually every photo published in that they give false information to the detriment of The Mccanns. All are taken from a totally different angle to that of the real situation.
The Mccanns have been hung drawn and quartered because of disinformation such as this ... and lies about how far they were away from their apartment. Lies that they were drunk. Lies that they were eating at a restaurant in town every night, 200 + metres away Lies that they never checked the children etc etc.
We have all read that they were 150 metres ... or even 250 metres away. They weren't .
They were just a midgin over 50 metres away from 5A Patrio windows which they could see, and in a place that corresponded to their back garden. This can be checked on GE. It was very like eating in my own back garden, which was almost exactly 50 metres long.
As fort 5A, I have been there and tested it. Sorry, but I know.
By foot, they were less than 80 metres away.
We have all read that they were drunk every night. They were NOT. The waiters statements make it clear that is totally untrue. They did NOT go for a drinking bout. They went for their evening meal
Despite the alcohol being free, they did NOT get drunk. That is verified by waiters statements.
JUST WHO has organised this colossal amount of disinformation, I wonder? .....cos it has been ruining the Mccanns Rights to Justice.
John is right. Ocean Club does have a Duty of Care. Surely that Duty should include pointing out all the lies and disinformation that had been put about ... or did they just not care? They must have known.
Have they just paid lip service to supporting the Mccanns? But looking after their own 'good name' was more important?
Easier to have the guests blamed for what happened than admit that OC was badly affected by burglars breaking in?
The photographs shown in the Dispatches video are so wrong that they should NEVER see the light of day again ... and the man promoting the lies should be questioned as to his motives IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 28, 2014, 10:17:04 AM
The head of the street lamp immediately opposite was virtually the same height as the arched window at the street side of the patio area to 5a ensuring that it was bathed in a fair light. Against the darkness anyone would be spotted going in there to the sitting room.
So if there were an abductor he wouldn't have gained access that way because of the risk of being spotted?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their
Post by: sadie on October 28, 2014, 11:43:06 AM
So if there were an abductor he wouldn't have gained access that way because of the risk of being spotted?
Imo and in Amarals oponion, both, no abductor would have gone in via the main patio windows at the back. Too well illuminated and overlooked by the Mccann group..
Also with a light on in the room, the moment the curtains were drawn back a little for entrance a rectangualr shaft of light would have shown outside. There was a lamp on inside the sitting room that was strong enough for Matt to read the titles of books there that he was interested in. See his statements.
The perp would have been silouhetted against that light as well as he entered, if he went in via the main patio windows.
Almost without doubt, he enterd by the dark recessed out of sight front door. The only other possibility is via the parents bedroom patio door. If that were the case, then imo, the maintenenace men should be looked at to rule them out. Cos if that were the case, unless the Mccanns had left the door open for ventilation, then it had to have been left unlocked by someone.
IIRC the maintenance men were working on it that day.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2014, 12:49:11 AM
I would like to know what the second safety sticker on the lounge balcony door said. Is it possible it was was about locking all doors and windows before leaving the apartment unattended?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 03, 2014, 09:15:24 PM
Since Team McCann have blamed everyone but themselves for their daughters demise(whatever that was/is) I feel we should also move onto blaming someone else: The owner of the Apartment. If the apartment was used as a paedophile hidey hole- the target of gangs of burglars/gypsies, and or swathey types, then He/she should have notified Warner and the McCanns. So, there you have it.... lets get hating... (tuts).. but oh wait.. did some one mention there were 'stickers on doors about safety?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on November 04, 2014, 12:01:15 AM
Since Team McCann have blamed everyone but themselves for their daughters demise(whatever that was/is) I feel we should also move onto blaming someone else: The owner of the Apartment. If the apartment was used as a paedophile hidey hole- the target of gangs of burglars/gypsies, and or swathey types, then He/she should have notified Warner and the McCanns. So, there you have it.... lets get hating... (tuts).. but oh wait.. did some one mention there were 'stickers on doors about safety?
What a strange post MissTaken
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on November 04, 2014, 12:24:40 AM
IMO the so-called "expert opinion" ;) of certain so-called "experts" who flew out to PDL was less than constructive.
I have no idea why you have seen fit, pegasus, to have a go at me, unless you are joining the "mob" ?
If you had taken the care to view the dispatches video, then you would have seen that the "so-called experts [as YOU call them] were not allowed into the Tapas area. I repeat that
The experts were NOT allowed into the Tapas area. They were turned away. I wonder why ?
They were shown a photo by a media person who told them that it weas virtually the same view as the one the Tapas group had. They appeared to believe this disinformation.
Yet, that photo that was from entirely the wrong angle and gave totally the wrong view of the Tapas groups view of 5A.
It was form the wrong angle giving a false impression and also taken from roughly twice the distance away.
Do you, Pegasus, think this fair?
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: pegasus on November 05, 2014, 12:01:53 AM
Sadie the text was not referring to you and was not referring to the dispatches experts, I was talking about some of the (non-police) experts who were flown out in the first days, quoted straight from KM's excellent book.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: sadie on November 05, 2014, 12:21:45 AM
Sadie the text was not referring to you and was not referring to the dispatches experts, I was talking about some of the (non-police) experts who were flown out in the first days, quoted straight from KM's excellent book.
Thank you pegasus.
I didn't think you could have joined the mob tbh.
Title: Re: Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2014, 11:33:26 AM
Sadie the text was not referring to you and was not referring to the dispatches experts, I was talking about some of the (non-police) experts who were flown out in the first days, quoted straight from KM's excellent book.
The dispatches experts overlooked the chilgate at the top of the stairs & had to ignore the open window/shutters to make 'abduction' fit.
The childgate at the top of the stairs was closed when Kate went in at 10, as were the patio door & curtains, as Kate explains...