UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2014, 12:20:44 PM
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The twins weren't examined and the investigators knew they had slept right through with all the noise and commotion going on in the apartment that night. They never even woke when the cots were lifted from there and taken upstairs to the Payne's apartment. You would've thought they would want to examine the twins just in case they found something in their system. You would've thought the parents would have demanded they were examined after the mother was checking if they were still alive. Maybe she was waiting outside the apartments because her flip flops were hurting her feet.
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It does seem strange that this was the only night that the children did not wake up. They have a history of waking up, Even Little Maddie age 3 told her mother they woke up and no one was there. ( this has got to be one of the most harrowing sentences I read- how that child must have been terrified for her and her siblings) But it didn't stop the parents doing it again. They must have been confident the children would not wake up during the night, because they left a door unlocked...
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Historically, and not recently, Madeleine had had sleepless nights, but had come through that patch well before the holiday
Amaral said nobody went through that window.. No fibres and no marks anywhere..
Evening was cool and blustery but a child that had been chloroformed or otherwise drugged would not feel a thing, given a suitable amount of the right drug. She would not have waken.
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Brietta, do you believe the twins were drugged ?
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Brietta, do you believe the twins were drugged ?
Sean at least was a very sound sleeper as evidenced by the exit from the plane when being carried by his father and met by a media scrum when his father was being interviewed.
The tests on the twins hair commissioned by their mum revealed no trace of drugs. So there is no evidence on which to build a 'belief' as opposed to a suspicion.
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Sean at least was a very sound sleeper as evidenced by the exit from the plane when being carried by his father and met by a media scrum when his father was being interviewed.
The tests on the twins hair commissioned by their mum revealed no trace of drugs. So there is no evidence on which to build a 'belief' as opposed to a suspicion.
We are told by Gerry that the reason they left the patio doors open was so they didn't wake the children by opening the main door while doing their checks. This suggests the children were light sleepers. How do you marry that with the fact that the twins remained asleep during all the resulting commotion in 5a after the alert ?
Further as there are no statements from any of the witnesses which verifies Kate's claim in her book that she expressed her concern ( and notice his mother clearly thought Sean's non-responsiveness was out of character ) that the twins may have been drugged, do you believe this actually happened?
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We are told by Gerry that the reason they left the patio doors open was so they didn't wake the children by opening the main door while doing their checks. This suggests the children were light sleepers. How do you marry that with the fact that the twins remained asleep during all the resulting commotion in 5a after the alert ?
Further as there are no statements from any of the witnesses which verifies Kate's claim in her book that she expressed her concern ( and notice his mother clearly thought Sean's non-responsiveness was out of character ) that the twins may have been drugged, do you believe this actually happened?
I have absolutely no idea what the protocol is or what the police response should be in a case like Madeleine’s … bearing in mind it is rather a unique one … at the least I would have thought having the twins checked by a doctor would have been appropriate. Perhaps they thought that unnecessary since there were so many doctors in already in attendance.
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I have kids by the way. Both of them have been both deep sleepers and light sleepers, often both in the same night. So - they may have been light sleepers for half-an-hour after going to bed, then deep sleepers for 3 or 4 hours, then light sleepers again for an hour or two, and then back into a deep sleep again. Just to be on the safe side, when they were asleep as young kids we would try and minimise the amount of noise we made so as not to wake them. Of course anyone with children would know this about kids' sleeping patterns - it's not massively unusual.
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if i remember correctly ...they refused to have the twins tested for drugs at the time.....
k mcc also put her hand close to their mouth ...after all they slept though the slamming door ....and all the racket that was going on
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if i remember correctly ...they refused to have the twins tested for drugs at the time.....
k mcc also put her hand close to their mouth ...after all they slept though the slamming door ....and all the racket that was going on
Now it is on my mind that Kate asked for the twins to be checked for drugs.
But. like you, I am relying on my memory .... and I am very willing to be proved wrong ... if I am.
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Now it is on my mind that Kate asked for the twins to be checked for drugs.
But. like you, I am relying on my memory .... and I am very willing to be proved wrong ... if I am.
same
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Seems the request by the mccs was three months later
Subject: Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
During the course of the ongoing investigation, various personal contacts were made by the undersigned with Kate and Gerald McCann, within my task of serving as communication element between the police and the McCann couple.
Within this context, the undersigned was present during various "strange" behaviours by the couple, who gradually began to react in a very negative manner to the increased investigative activity carried out by this police force, especially during the use of the English sniffer dogs for detecting cadaver odour, when more evidence arose in the investigation for the hypothesis of the death of Madeleine McCann.
Several times, the McCann couple said that the attention of the police should be maintained focussing on the abduction hypothesis, which, in the couple's opinion, was the only scenario that occurred and that the police should not forget to continue to investigate the suspect Robert Murat.
Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5ª of the Ocean Club, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.
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if i remember correctly ...they refused to have the twins tested for drugs at the time.....
k mcc also put her hand close to their mouth ...after all they slept though the slamming door ....and all the racket that was going on
She did check that the twins were breathing normally, and asking the police to check for any evidence of sedation was one of the first questions.
I haven't found anything in the files that they then refused to have them tested. That seems to be a long-standing myth.
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She did check that the twins were breathing normally, and asking the police to check for any evidence of sedation was one of the first questions.
I haven't found anything in the files that they then refused to have them tested. That seems to be a long-standing myth.
Am I right that Kate asked the police to check the twins for signs of sedation?
.... and no refusal per se, but it just apparantly didn't happen?
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She did check that the twins were breathing normally, and asking the police to check for any evidence of sedation was one of the first questions.
I haven't found anything in the files that they then refused to have them tested. That seems to be a long-standing myth.
It was actually the PJ that refused to have the twins tested -- after the McCanns had requested that they be tested.
None other than convicted torturer Almeidas Tavares tells us so:
Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.
Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.
Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.
She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.
And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.
The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams.
Of course, the fact Tavares blithely glosses over is that it was only after the McCanns were falsely accused of drugging their children that they became interested in establishing the fact that they don't and didn't.
And the nonsense about what Kate's father is supposed to have said (but never did!) has been dealt with countless times on this board.
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if i remember correctly ...they refused to have the twins tested for drugs at the time.....
k mcc also put her hand close to their mouth ...after all they slept though the slamming door ....and all the racket that was going on
Thank you Ferryman
It was actually the PJ that refused to have the twins tested -- after the McCanns had requested that they be tested.
None other than convicted torturer Almeidas Tavares tells us so:
Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.
Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.
Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.
She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.
And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.
The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams.
Of course, the fact Tavares blithely glosses over is that it was only after the McCanns were falsely accused of drugging their children that they became interested in establishing the fact that they don't and didn't.
And the nonsense about what Kate's father is supposed to have said (but never did!) has been dealt with countless times on this board.
Another Myth hits the ground !
Kate Mccann did ask for the twins to be tested for drugs
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Am I right that Kate asked the police to check the twins for signs of sedation?
.... and no refusal per se, but it just apparantly didn't happen?
Hmm. I haven't found anything in the files that they asked the police to test the twins in the days following the disappearance, but certainly asked the first FLOs who arrived on 5 May if drugs could have been used to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
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Of course, the fact Tavares blithely glosses over is that it was only after the McCanns were falsely accused of drugging their children that they became interested in establishing the fact that they don't and didn't.
And the nonsense about what Kate's father is supposed to have said (but never did!) has been dealt with countless times on this board.
Yes... what I was referring to as a myth is that the McCanns had refused to have the twins tested. I haven't found anything to substantiate that at all.
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well you would have thought they would have wanted the twins testing .......if only to make sure they hadn't been ..sedated [for there safty]..
seems strange to anyone surely to request it three months later... especially when k mcc put her had to the nose to check they were breathing.....
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Hmm. I haven't found anything in the files that they asked the police to test the twins in the days following the disappearance, but certainly asked the first FLOs who arrived on 5 May if drugs could have been used to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Well Kate and Gerry weren't in any position to demand, but they drew thw Polices attention to the possibility of drugs being userd as early as May 5th .... and if they suspected it , little doubt repeatedly.
So why did the PJ fail to do these tests?
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well you would have thought they would have wanted the twins testing .......if only to make sure they hadn't been ..sedated [for there safty]..
seems strange to anyone surely to request it three months later... especially when k mcc put her had to the nose to check they were breathing.....
p. 76 Kate says she reported her fears that all three children may have been sedated to the GNR.
The forensic team did check to see if there was any evidence in the flat on 4 May, although it's unclear if that involved anything more than keeping an eye out for e.g. a suspicious hanky or sniffing the pillow.
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They as doctors would have appreciated the need for testing.
They had every opportunity in the next few days to insist on it.
THEY DIDN'T.
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They as doctors would have appreciated the need for testing.
They had every opportunity in the next few days to insist on it.
THEY DIDN'T.
They kept mentioning it.
They were in no position to INSIST on anything.
The PJ should have done the tests ... but, of course, since day one .... Amaral had "solved" the crime. [Haha]
He wouldn't want anything to cast aspersions on his theory, would he?
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@ Sadie. Kate wrote that she'd raised the possibility with the GNR so that would have been 3 May in fact (or just after midnight). At that time, they hadn't realised that the GNR wasn't the criminal investigation police. On the 4th, during the day, the forensic lot had a look around for anything suspicious and examined the pillow (it's not clear whether they just sniffed it or whether there was any specific test they could have done). On 5 May, they raised the issue again with the LP FLOs.
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They kept mentioning it.
They were in no position to INSIST on anything.
The PJ should have done the tests ... but, of course, since day one .... Amaral had "solved" the crime. [Haha]
He wouldn't want anything to cast aspersions on his theory, would he?
No position ??
They could have taken their children to hospital a few days later and insisted on samples being taken.
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No position ??
They could have taken their children to hospital a few days later and insisted on samples being taken.
Wouldn't something such as chloroform have been eliminated by then?
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No position ??
They could have taken their children to hospital a few days later and insisted on samples being taken.
ORLY ?
You know best, I am sure *&*%£
Hows about the PJ taking the initiative. It was their job and to begin with the Mccanns trusted them
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Wouldn't something such as chloroform have been eliminated by then?
IMO, the choldren were all given some kind of sleeping draft, probably with their tea .... or in sweeties, chockies given to them
I have had chloroform several times as a child, Carana, and the effects would not have laste that long, I think. That is without reapplying it.
Madeleine might have had a sleeping draft and then chloroform on top, but it is all guess work tbh.
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IMO, the choldren were all given some kind of sleeping draft, probably with their tea .... or in sweeties, chockies given to them
I have had chloroform several times as a child, Carana, and the effects would not have laste that long, I think. That is without reapplying it.
Madeleine might have had a sleeping drafty and then chloroform on top, but it is all guess work tbh.
That would be backed up by the children being unusually tired on the way home from the Kids' Club, Madeleine even asking to be carried.
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That would be backed up by the children being unusually tired on the way home from the Kids' Club, Madeleine even asking to be carried.
Yep that does back it up .... and is what caused me to think of it in the first place.
I have always felt that Madeleine had something stronger, maybe a double sleeping draft or maybe chloroform ... and that one of the reasons the window was opened was not only as an escape route [and several other things], but also to waft away the smell of choroform.
The stuff I was given, when a kid, was strong smelling, but Eleanor knows of some chloriform that has no smell ... so dunno.
Some of you may remember "Marilyn of Switzerland"? A very clever woman, she was convinced a tazer gun was used .... again dunno.
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No position ??
They could have taken their children to hospital a few days later and insisted on samples being taken.
There is no way the McCanns could have independently taken the twins to hospital. The question of whether or not they had been drugged was part of an ongoing case. As such it was up to the PJ to sanction and arrange any testing. The McCanns would have been breaking the secrecy laws if they had done what you suggest and of their own volition discussed that - or any other aspect of the case with hospital staff.
The McCanns raised the matter of the possibility of drugs being used with the GNR on the night Madeleine disappeared and also with their FLO's during the following days. The result of those enquiries was that the PJ took no action.
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Yep that does back it up .... and is what caused me to think of it in the first place.
I have always felt that Madeleine had something stronger, maybe a double sleeping draft or maybe chloroform ... and that one of the reasons the window was opened was not only as an escape route [and several other things], but also to waft away the smell of choroform.
The stuff I was given, when a kid, was strong smelling, but Eleanor knows of some chloriform that has no smell ... so dunno.
Some of you may remember "Marilyn of Switzerland"? A very clever woman, she was convinced a tazer gun was used .... again dunno.
I've used chloroform (for veterinary purposes, I hasten to add), and I know of a few other people who have as well. I can't remember any major smell at all. Certainly not more noticeable than e.g, pharmaceutical alcohol or hydrogen peroxide.
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So Kate reported her fears to the GNR on the early morning of the 4th yet not one witness corroborates it, not Fiona Payne, Silvia Batiste who would have had to translate her concerns nor any of the GNR officers.
Seems Kate has been pushed into constructing false requests by the questions her lack of action had generated.
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So Kate reported her fears to the GNR on the early morning of the 4th yet not one witness corroborates it, not Fiona Payne, Silvia Batiste who would have had to translate her concerns nor any of the GNR officers.
Seems Kate has been pushed into constructing false requests by the questions her lack of action had generated.
Remind me, where I can see a copy of that note which Kate said was, to her horror, left on display in reception, detailing, for all would-be child abductors, just when was the best time to strike.
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Yep that does back it up .... and is what caused me to think of it in the first place.
I have always felt that Madeleine had something stronger, maybe a double sleeping draft or maybe chloroform ... and that one of the reasons the window was opened was not only as an escape route [and several other things], but also to waft away the smell of choroform.
The stuff I was given, when a kid, was strong smelling, but Eleanor knows of some chloriform that has no smell ... so dunno.
Some of you may remember "Marilyn of Switzerland"? A very clever woman, she was convinced a tazer gun was used .... again dunno.
"Marilyn of Switzerland" must have been before my time, but my blood runs cold at the thought of anyone tazering a three year old.
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My favourite place for it to have been given is in their drinking chocolate ... but I am only guessing.
All three were tired after tea but Madeleine was sooooo tired that Daddy had to carry her the 70 or 80 metres home at 5.30pm
They normally had their baths, put their jammies on and went to play on the slide etc with the other youngsters who, I believe, were also dressed ready for bed.
That must have been the highlight of their day , to play with their friends on the playground stuff
YET on THAT NIGHT surprisingly, they were too tired Hmmm &%+((£
Too tired for their favourite play period !! &%+((£
Hmmm !
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I've used chloroform (for veterinary purposes, I hasten to add), and I know of a few other people who have as well. I can't remember any major smell at all. Certainly not more noticeable than e.g, pharmaceutical alcohol or hydrogen peroxide.
Have you had it clamped over your nose !!!
@)(++(*
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As I mentioned on another thread Kate is a qualified Anaesthetist.
She would know! It was mentioned that the PJ thought it strange that the twins slept through all the noise and being moved out of the apartment.
It was strange indeed, as these children are documented as being light sleepers, they woke up crying a few times- well documented about little Maddie telling her mum off for leaving them all alone.
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As I mentioned on another thread Kate is a qualified Anaesthetist.
She would know! It was mentioned that the PJ thought it strange that the twins slept through all the noise and being moved out of the apartment.
It was strange indeed, as these children are documented as being light sleepers, they woke up crying a few times- well documented about little Maddie telling her mum off for leaving them all alone.
I don't find it at all strange that the twins slept.....they would be totally worn out on holiday...uk children don't have a siesta....mine have been almost impossible to wake when I have had to move them
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I don't find it at all strange that the twins slept.....they would be totally worn out on holiday...uk children don't have a siesta....mine have been almost impossible to wake when I have had to move them
You surprise me.
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You surprise me.
I surprise a lot of people...some think my life is unbelievable
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Have you had it clamped over your nose !!!
@)(++(*
Hmmm. No LOL, neither did I pass out (luckily), but I had to use it in a tiny enclosed space for practical reasons, and so I would have noticed any particular smell more easily than in an open space. It was commonly used for ticks and you just ordered it from the pharmacy. You just dab a bit on them with cotton wool and when they conked out, they'd relax their hold and so removing them was easier and painless.
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Hmmm. No LOL, neither did I pass out (luckily), but I had to use it in a tiny enclosed space for practical reasons, and so I would have noticed any particular smell more easily than in an open space. It was commonly used for ticks and you just ordered it from the pharmacy. You just dab a bit on them with cotton wool and when they conked out, they'd relax their hold and so removing them was easier and painless.
Mine was for the removal of teeth IIRC and maybe for operations, of which I had three when I was 6 or 7.
I dont think they use it any more in the UK, but I am not sure.
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As I mentioned on another thread Kate is a qualified Anaesthetist.
She would know! It was mentioned that the PJ thought it strange that the twins slept through all the noise and being moved out of the apartment.
It was strange indeed, as these children are documented as being light sleepers, they woke up crying a few times- well documented about little Maddie telling her mum off for leaving them all alone.
Where exactly is it documented the children were light sleepers. Did you miss Dr McCann carrying his soundly sleeping son from the plane?
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I'm sorry but where did I say the body was stuffed full of an antihistamine drug ?
Any drug found, and for the record I don't believe it would have been an antihistamine, could be blamed on the abductor. Remember Kate and Gerry's question to the British FLO about any evidence of drugs being used ( testing the water ? ) yet neither mentioning at the time their concerns that the twins may have been drugged too.
When you say "could be blamed on the abductor", who do you imagine would have been doing the blaming in such a scenario? Do you not think the police would have conducted an investigation into the drug used and where it might have come from? Any drug used (which one did you have in mind?) would have been more likely traced back to the person or people who had procured it in the first place don't you agree?
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I think the twins sleeping soundly was most likely a bi-product of something immensely positive -- conscientious and dedicated staff at the creche organising enjoyable, but also hectic and exhausting, days for the youngsters to take part in and enjoy.
At the end of it all, the twins were most likely supremely content, but also shattered, and just slept solidly through everything ...
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I think the twins sleeping soundly was most likely a bi-product of something immensely positive -- conscientious and dedicated staff at the creche organising enjoyable, but also hectic and exhausting, days for the youngsters to take part in and enjoy.
At the end of it all, the twins were most likely supremely content, but also shattered, and just slept solidly through everything ...
If Kate is to be believed she certainly didn't think on the night of the 3rd that the twins where merely tired but had been drugged by something.
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If Kate is to be believed she certainly didn't think on the night of the 3rd that the twins where merely tired but had been drugged by something.
(I think most likely) misplaced but understandable fears in a fraught situation.
At the same time, Kate would have had the experience and knowledge to assess whether there was a potential medical concern for the safety of the children.
She gauged that there wasn't and her judgment is proved correct.
The twins are fine.
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If Kate is to be believed she certainly didn't think on the night of the 3rd that the twins where merely tired but had been drugged by something.
to makew aproper judgement we would need to know exactly what kate said and in what context
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I have no idea what drug may have been administered but for me the largest pointer to the twins being drugged is firstly that they did not wake even when Mrs Fenn heard a child who she believed was Madeleine crying for 75 minutes on the 1st of May and also their deeply unconscious state during the commotion on the night of the third.
And to your last question , of course it's speculation but speculation based on circumstantial evidence.
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to makew aproper judgement we would need to know exactly what kate said and in what context
I'd suggest you read her book then Dave.
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I'd suggest you read her book then Dave.
have you
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It has long astounded me that probably literally thousands of medical people who actually know what they are talking about (and what Kate was talking about in her book) when she described her concerns over the twins sleeping soundly on night May 3rd have, not one of them, batted an eyelid.
All the "concern" has come from those of a certain persuasion on internet message boards.
Odd, that ...
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have you
But of course.
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But of course.
perhaps you didn't understand it
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It has long astounded me that probably literally thousands of medical people who actually know what they are talking about (and what Kate was talking about in her book) when she described her concerns over the twins sleeping soundly on night May 3rd have, not one of them, batted an eyelid.
All the "concern" has come from those of a certain persuasion on internet message boards.
Odd, that ...
Unless these thousands of medical people have read the Portuguese files or Amaral's book how would they have learned of Kate and her husband's lack of action with faced with their non-reacting children ?
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Unless these thousands of medical people have read the Portuguese files or Amaral's book how would they have learned of Kate and her husband's lack of action with faced with their non-reacting children ?
They would just have read Kate's book.
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perhaps you didn't understand it
Oh I think I know retro-fitting when I see it.
"I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too? It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all.
We did not appreciate until later that these two officers were from the Guarda Nacional Republicana, or GNR, who are essentially military police, like the Gendarmes in France or Guardia Civil in Spain, run by the Interior Ministry. They deal with matters like highway patrol and crowd control, and are also responsible for law enforcement in more rural areas like the Algarve, but they do not handle criminal investigations. At that stage, of course, we weren’t familiar with the various tiers of the Portuguese police system. As far as we were concerned, they were simply ‘the police’.
We tried to explain what had happened. David reiterated his concerns about roadblocks and border notification and I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated. A lady called Sílvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager. I remember her telling me that she had two grown-up daughters herself. She was very kind and I was glad of her help and support."
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They would just have read Kate's book.
See above.
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Oh I think I know retro-fitting when I see it.
"I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too? It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all.
We did not appreciate until later that these two officers were from the Guarda Nacional Republicana, or GNR, who are essentially military police, like the Gendarmes in France or Guardia Civil in Spain, run by the Interior Ministry. They deal with matters like highway patrol and crowd control, and are also responsible for law enforcement in more rural areas like the Algarve, but they do not handle criminal investigations. At that stage, of course, we weren’t familiar with the various tiers of the Portuguese police system. As far as we were concerned, they were simply ‘the police’.
We tried to explain what had happened. David reiterated his concerns about roadblocks and border notification and I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated. A lady called Sílvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager. I remember her telling me that she had two grown-up daughters herself. She was very kind and I was glad of her help and support."
This is like steam radio's Children's Hour "Toytown". Incroyable. Mr Pppppppoliiiiicemaaaaaan. The whole designed to give a specific impression to suit the tale being told.
The part about criminal investigations is interesting, were the cops told it was a crime?; first on the scene in a missing persons case over here will most probably be uniformed officers rather than CID or whatever they are called today. Tiers of police in is not uncommon. Italy par example having Polizia, Gardia and Carabinieri to name only three out about 6. Anyone who has travelled seriously abroad will read this and think yeah! so? Not to be taken too seriously.
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Mine was for the removal of teeth IIRC and maybe for operations, of which I had three when I was 6 or 7.
I dont think they use it any more in the UK, but I am not sure.
Stopped being used in the US in the early 20th century...are you sure you don't mean nitrous oxide?
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Retro-fitting is exactly what "sceptics" do best. Perhaps you could retrofit an explanation as to why Kate McCann even brought up the subject of the twins possibly having been drugged if this was indeed the cause of their own daughter's death? I'm sure you'll have a very creative answer.
Maddie had to be drugged by the abductor because she would have screamed her head off if Tannerman had just picked her up & walked off with her.
How else could she be carried in a strangers arms without fuss, other than dead?
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So, the McCanns had to point at drugs being used to explain the lack of a screaming Madeleine by Tannerman - I see.
This is an example of retro-fitting by "sceptics". Never mind that there actually WAS a 'Tannerman', who actually WAS carrying a sleeping child, and totally disregard the possibility that an abductor could equally as likely have been carrying a sleeping child rather than a dead or drugged one.
When the father picked up his sleeping child from the crèche are we to assume that it would have been completely impossible for him to have done so without the child waking up fully, checking to see who was picking her up before falling asleep again?
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Retro-fitting is exactly what "sceptics" do best. Perhaps you could retrofit an explanation as to why Kate McCann even brought up the subject of the twins possibly having been drugged if this was indeed the cause of their own daughter's death? I'm sure you'll have a very creative answer.
As there has been so much debate about her or her husband not seeking help when it was obvious that she had concerns because of the twins unresponsiveness ( hand on back to check for breathing etc ) it would have looked odd if Kate had not mentioned her actions and explained them.
Fortunately for her the vast majority of the people reading her book will not have been aware that there is not one witness statement that confirms her claim that she voiced her claims to the GNR that night, not her friend Fiona, even though she mentions the twins lack of reaction to the commotion, not Silvia Batiste who would have to have translated Kate's concerns, not even her husband who, you would imagine would be not only the first person she would voice her concerns to but would also share those concerns and help her in persuading the GNR to call medical help.
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So, the McCanns had to point at drugs being used to explain the lack of a screaming Madeleine by Tannerman - I see.
This is an example of retro-fitting by "sceptics". Never mind that there actually WAS a 'Tannerman', who actually WAS carrying a sleeping child, and totally disregard the possibility that an abductor could equally as likely have been carrying a sleeping child rather than a dead or drugged one.
When the father picked up his sleeping child from the crèche are we to assume that it would have been completely impossible for him to have done so without the child waking up fully, checking to see who was picking her up before falling asleep again?
B*llocks could he, total stranger comes in through the noisy front door ('that's why we ended up coming in through the back' said Mr McCann once upon a time) takes her out of bed & passes her out the window or whatever the f..k he's supposed to have done with her & she don't bat an eyelid, & there he is wandering round the town for 45 minute or something, where he passes the Smith family (since Kate believed the two could possibly be the same man) and she's still out for the count & the abductors changed her pyjamas!
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So, the McCanns had to point at drugs being used to explain the lack of a screaming Madeleine by Tannerman - I see.
This is an example of retro-fitting by "sceptics". Never mind that there actually WAS a 'Tannerman', who actually WAS carrying a sleeping child, and totally disregard the possibility that an abductor could equally as likely have been carrying a sleeping child rather than a dead or drugged one.
When the father picked up his sleeping child from the crèche are we to assume that it would have been completely impossible for him to have done so without the child waking up fully, checking to see who was picking her up before falling asleep again?
Well it is plausible is it not? to paraphrase someone not a million miles away.
8(>((
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Well it is plausible is it not? to paraphrase someone not a million miles away.
8(>((
What do you think? I know it's plausible as I have children and I know they can be picked up without waking them. I also know that others "sceptics" mainly maintain it's completely impossible. So, what do you think?
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See above.
What additional information is there in the files not in Kate's book?
Oh yes, silly me.
If they'd read the files, they'd have "known" that Kate's father contradicted Kate and Gerry on use of sedatives with the children ....
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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What do you think? I know it's plausible as I have children and I know they can be picked up without waking them. I also know that others "sceptics" mainly maintain it's completely impossible. So, what do you think?
Do the skeptics say "completely impossible" or is that merely your interpretation of their "improbable"?
If the postulation is that an abductor broke in removed the child and wandered around with her without her waking up then plausible but improbable.
What I actually think is that a little girl went missing and despite the attempts of two police forces and three detective agencies of varying competence and world wide publicity, no credible sighting has been made in seven years and no one has much idea of what really happened. That would lead me to believe she is probably dead rather than living an appalling life in the so called lawless hinterland of Portugal (can such a small EU member state reliant on tourism really have one of those?) or leading the life of Riley with a wealthy couple who had been childless.
What do you really think? We know you like to tell us the "skeptics" are wrong and are are deficient in varying qualities according to the day of the week but you never break cover and give us a rational opinion of your own. Give us treat sir. We are literally bustin' to know what your bostin premise is.
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Do the skeptics say "completely impossible" or is that merely your interpretation of their "improbable"?
If the postulation is that an abductor broke in removed the child and wandered around with her without her waking up then plausible but improbable.
What I actually think is that a little girl went missing and despite the attempts of two police forces and three detective agencies of varying competence and world wide publicity, no credible sighting has been made in seven years and no one has much idea of what really happened. That would lead me to believe she is probably dead rather than living an appalling life in the so called lawless hinterland of Portugal (can such a small EU member state reliant on tourism really have one of those?) or leading the life of Riley with a wealthy couple who had been childless.
What do you really think? We know you like to tell us the "skeptics" are wrong and are are deficient in varying qualities according to the day of the week but you never break cover and give us a rational opinion of your own. Give us treat sir. We are literally bustin' to know what your bostin premise is.
Tsk, such sarcasm ill behoves you madam but seeing as you asked so acidly I shall tell you... I think Madeleine was abducted, most likely by a paedophile, abused, murdered and disposed of somewhere in the vicinity of PdL on or shortly after the night she disappeared. I don't insist that my theory is correct, I hope I am wrong and that she is still alive. There is no evidence that she is dead so one can understand why her parents and those that love her continue to hope.
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Eileen McCann, mother of Gerry McCann, told the Derry Journal (14.9.2007 and later picked up by the Sunday Mirror)
"If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know she would have screamed the place down.
"I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening,"
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Eileen McCann, mother of Gerry McCann, told the Derry Journal (14.9.2007 and later picked up by the Sunday Mirror)
"If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know she would have screamed the place down.
"I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening,"
Granny's do have a way of being right I find.
So if this granny is right and there was no way that the child could have been carried without being awakened we have three possibilities.
The child woke and screamed
The child was drugged
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Granny's do have a way of being right I find.
So if this granny is right and there was no way that the child could have been carried without being awakened we have three possibilities.
The child woke and screamed
The child was drugged
Or, The child was already dead.
I'm putting my money on that one.
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Eileen McCann, mother of Gerry McCann, told the Derry Journal (14.9.2007 and later picked up by the Sunday Mirror)
"If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know she would have screamed the place down.
"I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening,"
It is my experience that grannies verily do have a way of being right.
So if this granny is right and there was no way that the child could have been carried out without being awakened we would seem to have five possibilities.
The child awakened and made nary a sound
The child awakened and screamed.
The child was drugged.
The child was dead.
The child was not carried out.
Obviously from those events others would logically flow.
Anymore for anymore?
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Granny's do have a way of being right I find.
So if this granny is right and there was no way that the child could have been carried without being awakened we have three possibilities.
The child woke and screamed
The child was drugged
didn't granny say there is no way Kate and Gerry could be involved...and as Granny is usually right
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Tsk, such sarcasm ill behoves you madam but seeing as you asked so acidly I shall tell you... I think Madeleine was abducted, most likely by a paedophile, abused, murdered and disposed of somewhere in the vicinity of PdL on or shortly after the night she disappeared. I don't insist that my theory is correct, I hope I am wrong and that she is still alive. There is no evidence that she is dead so one can understand why her parents and those that love her continue to hope.
It's completely wrong Alf.
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Sadie's assertion that the children had been sleeping well in the months before Madeleine's disappearance cannot be accurate as on one of the nights during the holiday Amelie woke and cried,which in turn awoke Madeleine and caused her to climb into bed with her parents. And then there was Madeleine's claim to her parents that herself and Sean were awake and crying and wanted to know why her parents had not come to them. So hardly sound sleepers! I'm sorry but it really does beggar belief as to how the McCanns thought that it was okay to leave these babies alone in an unlocked apartment.
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Sadie's assertion that the children had been sleeping well in the months before Madeleine's disappearance cannot be accurate as on one of the nights during the holiday Amelie woke and cried,which in turn awoke Madeleine and caused her to climb into bed with her parents. And then there was Madeleine's claim to her parents that herself and Sean were awake and crying and wanted to know why her parents had not come to them. So hardly sound sleepers! I'm sorry but it really does beggar belief as to how the McCanns thought that it was okay to leave these babies alone in an unlocked apartment.
They don't care what people think about their standards of parenting, they just want people to keep buying the fantasy abduction. That's what matters to them.
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And money. Don't forget the money.
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What do you think? I know it's plausible as I have children and I know they can be picked up without waking them. I also know that others "sceptics" mainly maintain it's completely impossible. So, what do you think?
I think the photographs of the McCann family returning to Britain confirm your statement, Alfred, as will anyone who has children ... on occasion it is possible for them to sleep through anything.
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Sadie's assertion that the children had been sleeping well in the months before Madeleine's disappearance cannot be accurate as on one of the nights during the holiday Amelie woke and cried,which in turn awoke Madeleine and caused her to climb into bed with her parents. And then there was Madeleine's claim to her parents that herself and Sean were awake and crying and wanted to know why her parents had not come to them. So hardly sound sleepers! I'm sorry but it really does beggar belief as to how the McCanns thought that it was okay to leave these babies alone in an unlocked apartment.
It's definitely not true according to DP if you can understand him.
I think it's, they've had you know the twins, it's never difficult, err sorry it's never easy looking after twins, err my sister's got twins and err you know and it was very difficult for them. Madeleine would often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as err Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I'd be so much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never were. They were never, I, I've never ever seen either of them lose it with, with the kids you know err they, they you know tell them off as any parent does but you know no, not particularly forcefully you know as, you know and they have they've always been such an even keel err that you know you just have to admire how they've brought their, their family up, and children up.'
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It's definitely not true according to DP if you can understand him.
I think it's, they've had you know the twins, it's never difficult, err sorry it's never easy looking after twins, err my sister's got twins and err you know and it was very difficult for them. Madeleine would often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as err Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I'd be so much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never were. They were never, I, I've never ever seen either of them lose it with, with the kids you know err they, they you know tell them off as any parent does but you know no, not particularly forcefully you know as, you know and they have they've always been such an even keel err that you know you just have to admire how they've brought their, their family up, and children up.'
Didn't the McCann's say it was usually around the 2o'clock stage that Madeleine would get up and go to their room?
I think you do get to know your children's sleep patterns.
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Didn't the McCann's say it was usually around the 2o'clock stage that Madeleine would get up and go to their room?
I think you do get to know your children's sleep patterns.
She never woke up early and she did not move the door. The kids not going to the play area at 6:30 connects to everything that follows (no key, unlocked/moving doors, open window) up to the last sighting of her with Smithman. The yard's prime suspect believe it or not.
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She never woke up early and she did not move the door. The kids not going to the play area at 6:30 connects to everything that follows (no key, unlocked/moving doors, open window) up to the last sighting of her with Smithman. The yard's prime suspect believe it or not.
No PF 8)><(
It was burglars 8)><(
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I think the photographs of the McCann family returning to Britain confirm your statement, Alfred, as will anyone who has children ... on occasion it is possible for them to sleep through anything.
Mine did too, if tired enough and if they woke up at night with a bad dream they came into our bed, as did the grandchildren
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Twitching around & mumbling instead of just telling us how the abduction happened.
Because you can't.
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They don't care what people think about their standards of parenting, they just want people to keep buying the fantasy abduction. That's what matters to them.
If only you realised what a silly thing you are saying.
The pr0s want Justice and hate bullying.
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I haven't been around all that much recently because I have had my family here. But I have to tell you all that I am totally disgusted.
Just how old are some of you? And I'll tell you what. There is nothing much to choose between you.
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Sadie's assertion that the children had been sleeping well in the months before Madeleine's disappearance cannot be accurate as on one of the nights during the holiday Amelie woke and cried,which in turn awoke Madeleine and caused her to climb into bed with her parents. And then there was Madeleine's claim to her parents that herself and Sean were awake and crying and wanted to know why her parents had not come to them. So hardly sound sleepers! I'm sorry but it really does beggar belief as to how the McCanns thought that it was okay to leave these babies alone in an unlocked apartment.
Please get your facts right. WHERE have I said that the kids had slept well or badly in the months before?
Never said.
Dont put words in my mouth.
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I haven't been around all that much recently because I have had my family here. But I have to tell you all that I am totally disgusted.
Just how old are some of you? And I'll tell you what. There is nothing much to choose between you.
I think everyone is getting twitchy waiting on some exciting new news to break. @)(++(*