UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Gray on August 07, 2014, 09:07:28 PM
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According to Montclair no one has successfully shown a miscarriage of justice in Portugal in 30 years...I would rather live in a system where the court admits mistakes
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According to Montclair no one has successfully shown a miscarriage of justice in Portugal in 30 years...I would rather live in a system where the court admits mistakes
The courts in this country certainly don't admit mistakes willingly, as John will concur.
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According to Montclair no one has successfully shown a miscarriage of justice in Portugal in 30 years...I would rather live in a system where the court admits mistakes
Why do you keep repeating this when this is not what I said? I see my previous reply was deleted. In Portugal, there is an appeals system and people have seen their sentences reduced or verdicts overturned but miscarriages of justices as you see in the UK, I am not aware of. This could be due to the fact that the justice system is based more on redemption and rehabilitation of the criminals than on punishment. JMO. Also, each crime has its respective sentencing, minimum and maximum, stipulated in the law and the sentences are not at the discretion of the judge. You can't get years in prison for stealing a bottle of water during some riots, as was the case in London. There are no life sentences in Portugal and the most anyone can get is 25 years, whether you murder one person or twenty!
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Why do you keep repeating this when this is not what I said? I see my previous reply was deleted. In Portugal, there is an appeals system and people have seen their sentences reduced or verdicts overturned but miscarriages of justices as you see in the UK, I am not aware of. This could be due to the fact that the justice system is based more on redemption and rehabilitation of the criminals than on punishment. JMO. Also, each crime has its respective sentencing, minimum and maximum, stipulated in the law and the sentences are not at the discretion of the judge. You can't get years in prison for stealing a bottle of water during some riots, as was the case in London. There are no life sentences in Portugal and the most anyone can get is 25 years, whether you murder one person or twenty!
So on what grounds would verdicts be overturned? Surely there can only be one reason - and that is the person was wrongly convicted in the first place. IOW a miscarriage of justice had occurred.
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So on what grounds would verdicts be overturned? Surely there can only be one reason - and that is the person was wrongly convicted in the first place. IOW a miscarriage of justice had occurred.
I don't think that Portugal is all that keen on admitting Wrongful Conviction. A bit like America. The person was rightfully convicted on the evidence. Proving that the evidence was flawed is a whole new ball game since most, if not all appeals are only considered on Points of Law. And only Judges can decide that.
It's a dog's breakfast.
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Why do you keep repeating this when this is not what I said? I see my previous reply was deleted. In Portugal, there is an appeals system and people have seen their sentences reduced or verdicts overturned but miscarriages of justices as you see in the UK, I am not aware of. This could be due to the fact that the justice system is based more on redemption and rehabilitation of the criminals than on punishment. JMO. Also, each crime has its respective sentencing, minimum and maximum, stipulated in the law and the sentences are not at the discretion of the judge. You can't get years in prison for stealing a bottle of water during some riots, as was the case in London. There are no life sentences in Portugal and the most anyone can get is 25 years, whether you murder one person or twenty!
perhaps you could give us some examples of convictions being overturned
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The courts in this country certainly don't admit mistakes willingly, as John will concur.
no they have to evidence and they abide by that evidence
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no they have to evidence and they abide by that evidence
Which has been known to be flawed.
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I see Montclair is online...perhaps he could give us some examples of successful appeals to settle the question
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I see Montclair is online...perhaps he could give us some examples of successful appeals to settle the question
Oh it didn't take him long to vanish again!
Perhaps he will come back and give us some examples of successful appeals to settle the question as you asked him?
Let's wait a while .... and see how many he comes up with
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I would not know whether or not Montclair is correct, however is this a function of an inquisitorial legal system leading to fewer if any miscarriages of justice generally rather than only in Portugal?. "Do inquisitorial legal systems lead to fewer miscarriages of justice than adversarial systems?". That might be a more realistic way of looking at it rather than Portugal v UK. At least then the emotion and partisanship will be reduced and a more objective debate will ensue; perhaps! Extending from that is how can one know "there never has been a miscarriage of justice"; one can only know with any degree of certainty whether or not one has been brought to light which is quite a different proposition. There is also the matter in any system of "conviction unsafe" not being the same as "not guilty" in the strictest terms.
Well my dears there is something to ponder upon.
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I would not know whether or not Montclair is correct, however is this a function of an inquisitorial legal system leading to fewer if any miscarriages of justice generally rather than only in Portugal?. "Do inquisitorial legal systems lead to fewer miscarriages of justice than adversarial systems?". That might be a more realistic way of looking at it rather than Portugal v UK. At least then the emotion and partisanship will be reduced and a more objective debate will ensue; perhaps! Extending from that is how can one know "there never has been a miscarriage of justice"; one can only know with any degree of certainty whether or not one has been brought to light which is quite a different proposition. There is also the matter in any system of "conviction unsafe" not being the same as "not guilty" in the strictest terms.
Well my dears there is something to ponder upon.
My question to Montclair is based on a post he made where he said he had not heard of a successful miscarriage of justice case in Portugal in the last 30 years...that sounds rather odd. Considering the very poor evidence on which the Ciprianos were convicted I can't see Portuguese justice being in anyway superior
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My question to Montclair is based on a post he made where he said he had not heard of a successful miscarriage of justice case in Portugal in the last 30 years...that sounds rather odd. Considering the very poor evidence on which the Ciprianos were convicted I can't see Portuguese justice being in anyway superior
You are privy to entire court transcripts?.
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You are privy to entire court transcripts?.
if you look at the appropriate thread you will see there is a clear court statement on the evidence
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if you look at the appropriate thread you will see there is a clear court statement on the evidence
Well good sir your response clearly fails to address the issue I raised.
No matter; were Joana Cipriano's mother and uncle given custodial sentences for her murder? did this case not make Portuguese legal history in being the first murder conviction in Portugal without a corpse? Has a successful appeal been made to substantiate it was indeed a miscarriage of justice as you assert? On the basis of this one case you believe the English justice system to be superior despite the many cases of miscarriages of justice we have?
You may find this link of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases
Whilst Wikipedia is not a definitive source it does provide an indicator. Check how many miscarriages of justice are listed for Portugal
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Well good sir your response clearly fails to address the issue I raised.
No matter; were Joana Cipriano's mother and uncle given custodial sentences for her murder? did this case not make Portuguese legal history in being the first murder conviction in Portugal without a corpse? Has a successful appeal been made to substantiate it was indeed a miscarriage of justice as you assert? On the basis of this one case you believe the English justice system to be superior despite the many cases of miscarriages of justice we have?
You may find this link of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases
Whilst Wikipedia is not a definitive source it does provide an indicator. Check how many miscarriages of justice are listed for Portugal
I have already seen this site ...zero for Portugal...as I have said I don't accept Portugal has a superior legal system so why are there no miscarriages of justice......the cipriano case was a disgrace on many levels...torture as recognised by amnesty international and basically no real evidence apart from a confession
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Well good sir your response clearly fails to address the issue I raised.
No matter; were Joana Cipriano's mother and uncle given custodial sentences for her murder? did this case not make Portuguese legal history in being the first murder conviction in Portugal without a corpse? Has a successful appeal been made to substantiate it was indeed a miscarriage of justice as you assert? On the basis of this one case you believe the English justice system to be superior despite the many cases of miscarriages of justice we have?
You may find this link of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases
Whilst Wikipedia is not a definitive source it does provide an indicator. Check how many miscarriages of justice are listed for Portugal
your post is full of errors..
I have never said the ciprianos are victims of a miscarriage of justice
I have never said that the UK justice system is superior
A little more accuracy in your posts would be appreciated
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your post is full of errors..
I have never said the ciprianos are victims of a miscarriage of justice
I have never said that the UK justice system is superior
A little more accuracy in your posts would be appreciated
that sounds rather odd. Considering the very poor evidence on which the Ciprianos were convicted I can't see Portuguese justice being in anyway superior
Above is what you said. If you can't see the Portuguese system being superior then it follows you see it as either equal to or inferior to. But to what? One would infer the English system but of course it could have been Uruguayan law as you you had been imprecise in what you were actually comparing Portuguese law with.
The fact that you say the Ciprianos were convicted on poor evidence implies you have read ALL the evidence.
You are aware of the link I posted but you choose not to believe the content. It seems you always have a prejudged preferred solution and work your thinking and arguments around that.
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They confessed.
There is that aswell.
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They confessed.
There is that aswell.
I think I would have confessed after that beating
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I think I would have confessed after that beating
Strange, they had confessed before the murderess got a beating.
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I shall be most surprised if Amnesty International aren't in it.
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If the McCanns had been Portuguese countryfolk with a low IQ and only 3-4 years of formal education, they would have been banged up within 2 weeks and the twins would have been placed in an orphanage.
Simple. Job done. Next promotion, please.
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If the McCanns had been Portuguese countryfolk with a low IQ and only 3-4 years of formal education, they would have been banged up within 2 weeks and the twins would have been placed in an orphanage.
Simple. Job done. Next promotion, please.
I am inclined to agree with that assessment, I am afraid, although I would love to be proved wrong.
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There are no surprises in Portuguese courts, except with perhaps a confession in front of the judge, with regard to evidence presented. If the video of João Cipriano's reconstruction was admitted, the defense lawyers knew about it. I think that it is important that posters do not forget that, in Portugal, the justice system is "inquisitorial" and not "adversarial" and that there are no Perry Mason moments in the courts rooms.
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As Montclair points out earlier the Portuguese system is inquisitorial where the court is actively involved in the investigation.
Are you suggesting that the entire Portuguese system is defective? Or that inquisitorial systems are defective? Come right out and say precisely what you think instead of cowering behind your syntax.
Are you not aware of the defects in our own system? I suggest you read Gareth Peirce's essays "Dispatches From The Dark Side"if you believe we do things so much better.
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As Montclair points out earlier the Portuguese system is inquisitorial where the court is actively involved in the investigation.
Are you suggesting that the entire Portuguese system is defective? Or that inquisitorial systems are defective? Come right out and say precisely what you think instead of cowering behind your syntax.
Are you not aware of the defects in our own system? I suggest you read Gareth Peirce's essays "Dispatches From The Dark Side"if you believe we do things so much better.
We've had many a miscarriage of justice revealed in this country via programmes like 'Rough Justice' IIRC. It would be interesting to know if there have ever been any similar TV programmes in Portugual.
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As Montclair points out earlier the Portuguese system is inquisitorial where the court is actively involved in the investigation.
Are you suggesting that the entire Portuguese system is defective? Or that inquisitorial systems are defective? Come right out and say precisely what you think instead of cowering behind your syntax.
Are you not aware of the defects in our own system? I suggest you read Gareth Peirce's essays "Dispatches From The Dark Side"if you believe we do things so much better.
I am well aware as to the nature of the Portuguese courts. what I find odd is that according to Montclair he has never known a successful miscarriage of justice case. this seems extremely odd. I don't accept that the system is so good that there has never been a miscarriage of justice...we only have to look at the cipriano case to see how weak the evidence was here...there are other cases too that suggest miscarriages may have taken place. So why is it? we know there are miscarriages in the UK and they are publicised...perhaps Montclair could tell us why there are none in portugal
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I repeat from my post 10 on this thread:
Extending from that is how can one know "there never has been a miscarriage of justice"; one can only know with any degree of certainty whether or not one has been brought to light which is quite a different proposition.
How many appeals have been made in Portugal? (bearing in mind that appeals may be made by both sides in inquisitorial systems unlike in adversarial systems where the prosecutor cannot appeal). Of those how many were upheld?
Ignoring the Cipriano case which according to Portuguese law so far is NOT a miscarriage of justice however we may feel about it as no successful appeal has been made except I believe with respect to the length of sentence (I remain content to be corrected on this).
Whether a TV programme has been made about miscarriages of justice in Portugal would be a function of whether the TV stations and their advertisers felt it would attract a big enough audience rather than any other factor.
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Perhaps more to the point, does anyone ever get found Not Guilty in serious crime cases?
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Perhaps more to the point, does anyone ever get found Not Guilty in serious crime cases?
I suspect that were eyes lifted to the horizon rather than be blinkered down to Cipriano and Casa Pia purely in the context of McCann, an objective answer could be obtained.
Perhaps the question should be "are McCann supporters on this forum aware of any other Portuguese legal cases at all"? I don't recall seeing another case mentioned.
It should not be forgotten that in an inquisitorial system a confession of guilt may be rejected by the judge if there is insufficient evidence to support the confession.
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I repeat from my post 10 on this thread:
Extending from that is how can one know "there never has been a miscarriage of justice"; one can only know with any degree of certainty whether or not one has been brought to light which is quite a different proposition. [/b][/i]
How many appeals have been made in Portugal? (bearing in mind that appeals may be made by both sides in inquisitorial systems unlike in adversarial systems where the prosecutor cannot appeal). Of those how many were upheld?
Ignoring the Cipriano case which according to Portuguese law so far is NOT a miscarriage of justice however we may feel about it as no successful appeal has been made except I believe with respect to the length of sentence (I remain content to be corrected on this).
Whether a TV programme has been made about miscarriages of justice in Portugal would be a function of whether the TV stations and their advertisers felt it would attract a big enough audience rather than any other factor.
I'm not sure whether you understand what's going on here. It is Montclair who has made this claim...not me..he then seemed to change his mind. I have asked him to give us some examples of successful appeals but as yet he has not.
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I suspect that were eyes lifted to the horizon rather than be blinkered down to Cipriano and Casa Pia purely in the context of McCann, an objective answer could be obtained.
Perhaps the question should be "are McCann supporters on this forum aware of any other Portuguese legal cases at all"? I don't recall seeing another case mentioned.
It should not be forgotten that in an inquisitorial system a confession of guilt may be rejected by the judge if there is insufficient evidence to support the confession.
I am aware of two other Portuguese cases ...this forum is the MadeleiNE Forum so they have no real relevance...unlike the cipriano case which has several linking factors
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I haven't said the problem is systemic...I have asked the question...you really are not reading the posts properly and keep drawing the wrong conclusions.
The OT is a question..not a statement. What we do know is that all justice systems make mistakes...the question is do they all accept it....if Portugal has no cases of miscarriages of justice then it would be a fair assumption that something is not quite right
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A Portuguese Poster did once state that if someone is charged in Portugal then it's a fair assumption that they are guilty because the case is watertight before they get to Court.
Sorry, I can't remember who said that.
But they have all fought hard to convince everyone that Amaral was definitely Not Guilty. So was he stitched up?
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I haven't said the problem is systemic...I have asked the question...you really are not reading the posts properly and keep drawing the wrong conclusions.
The OT is a question..not a statement. What we do know is that all justice systems make mistakes...the question is do they all accept it....if Portugal has no cases of miscarriages of justice then it would be a fair assumption that something is not quite right
a) As by your own admission you have not said the problem is systemic then presumably you agree it isn't systemic? In which case you have to accept that the Cipriano case if ultimately proven to be a case of miscarriage of justice was a rarity not attributable to the system.
b) Or the system is so good there are few if any miscarriages of justice.
Back to square one.
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a) As by your own admission you have not said the problem is systemic then presumably you agree it isn't systemic? In which case you have to accept that the Cipriano case if ultimately proven to be a case of miscarriage of justice was a rarity not attributable to the system.
b) Or the system is so good there are few if any miscarriages of justice.
Back to square one.
It doesn't have to be either...neither black nor white...the questionis what shade of gray it is and we don't have enough information to know. The cipriano case looks very dark
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It doesn't have to be either...neither black nor white...the questionis what shade of gray it is and we don't have enough information to know. The cipriano case looks very dark
Well sir let me try to establish what is now being said:
There is insufficient data available to arrive at an informed opinion vis a vis the Portuguese legal system being in anyway deficient or worse than any other.
There are in your opinion questions to be posed regarding the Cipriano case, but in Portugal no one including the defendants lawyers has pursued the matter for what ever reason.
That doesn't seem to be particularly damning.
In the general context of these matters it is what might be described as "pretty bloody average". Much like everywhere
else that is "democratic".
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Well sir let me try to establish what is now being said:
There is insufficient data available to arrive at an informed opinion vis a vis the Portuguese legal system being in anyway deficient or worse than any other.
There are in your opinion questions to be posed regarding the Cipriano case, but in Portugal no one including the defendants lawyers has pursued the matter for what ever reason.
That doesn't seem to be particularly damning.
In the general context of these matters it is what might be described as "pretty bloody average". Much like everywhere
else that is "democratic".
You have missed out the most important point...look at the OT....extremely damning.
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You have missed out the most important point...look at the OT....extremely damning.
How so the most important point?
I repeat: if all this damning evidence is as plain as a pikestaff and grounds for overturning the conviction why has there been no upheld appeal? Given you have already conceded that the Portuguese legal system is neither better nor worse than our own, collusion and corruption can reasonably be eliminated.
It seems to me she was a nasty convicted, liar of a murderess rather than some kind of Mother Theresa figure?
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How so the most important point?
I repeat: if all this damning evidence is as plain as a pikestaff and grounds for overturning the conviction why has there been no upheld appeal? Given you have already conceded that the Portuguese legal system is neither better nor worse than our own, collusion and corruption can reasonably be eliminated.
It seems to me she was a nasty convicted, liar of a murderess rather than some kind of Mother Theresa figure?
[moderated] ....you don't seem to understand what the thread is about....I have not conceded what you state...not in the slightest.... the question is how can Portugal have no miscarriages of justice....whats the explanation...try and stay on topic..as for cipriano...you can think what you like...but the fact is that the evidence was non existent
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The topic is...miscarriages of justice in Portugal...there doesn't seem to be any successful challenges as confirmed by Montclair, a Portuguese poster. This does seem more than odd and no one has been able to offer a reasonable explanation......so is there something inherently wrong with the Portuguese legal system....it's starting to look as though there is. No wonder Kate and Gerry needed to get out fast.
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[moderated] ....you don't seem to understand what the thread is about....I have not conceded what you state...not in the slightest.... the question is how can Portugal have no miscarriages of justice....whats the explanation...try and stay on topic..as for cipriano...you can think what you like...but the fact is that the evidence was non existent
Two confessions will do just fine in my book any day.
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Two confessions will do just fine in my book any day.
you sound like something from the Spanish inquisition...justice has moved on for some
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Two confessions will do just fine in my book any day.
Especially my dear sir in a judicial system where the judge has the power to not consider a confession if he feels its was not valid for any reason whatever an there is no evidence to support the confession.
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Especially my dear sir in a judicial system where the judge has the power to not consider a confession if he feels its was not valid for any reason whatever an there is no evidence to support the confession.
what is most telling is that after 6 pages of posts not one example of a miscarriage of justice in Portugal...this may well be coupled with a much higher rate of confessions than the Uk which would be related to their frequency of appearance on the amnesty international website
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interesting case...
Mr Graham Mitchell, a British citizen from Kent, was prosecuted for attempted murder in Portugal in 1994-5. He spent one year in pre-trial detention during which time he was subject to serious ill treatment. He was finally acquitted, released and returned home to the UK to start the difficult task of rebuilding his life.
Portugal has now issued a European Arrest Warrant seeking his extradition to face charges based on the same facts as the original prosecution 18 years ago. Graham was arrested at his home in early 2012 and taken into custody before being granted bail by a British court. He now faces the ordeal of extradition proceedings in the UK and the threat of a new trial in Portugal.
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60334000/jpg/_60334492_jex_1659_de30.jpg)
Update – We are delighted to report that in May 2012 the Portuguese authorities dropped their request to extradite Graham due to the amount of time that has passed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-18116917
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interesting case...
Mr Graham Mitchell, a British citizen from Kent, was prosecuted for attempted murder in Portugal in 1994-5. He spent one year in pre-trial detention during which time he was subject to serious ill treatment. He was finally acquitted, released and returned home to the UK to start the difficult task of rebuilding his life.
Portugal has now issued a European Arrest Warrant seeking his extradition to face charges based on the same facts as the original prosecution 18 years ago. Graham was arrested at his home in early 2012 and taken into custody before being granted bail by a British court. He now faces the ordeal of extradition proceedings in the UK and the threat of a new trial in Portugal.
Update – We are delighted to report that in May 2012 the Portuguese authorities dropped their request to extradite Graham due to the amount of time that has passed.
"Due to the amount of time that has passed?"
So nothing to do with the fact that his Victim is still alive and kicking, and has stated that it was an accident?"
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Especially my dear sir in a judicial system where the judge has the power to not consider a confession if he feels its was not valid for any reason whatever an there is no evidence to support the confession.
not much good if the judges are of poor quality...
•The President of the Portuguese Bar Association has commented on the inexperience of Portuguese judges.
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"Due to the amount of time that has passed?"
So nothing to do with the fact that his Victim is still alive and kicking, and has stated that it was an accident?"
"Kicking" is stretching a point as the victim is paralysed below the waist.
Mitchell and his associate were acquitted and allowed to return to the UK although the acquittal was overturned by a higher court afterwards. The decision to drop the European Arrest Warrant was in my view sensible.
So putting all this in the context of Montclair's postulation, we have on this forum arrived at two dubious cases in a time span approaching twenty years. Grist to Montclair's mill one would have thought rather than an indication that the Portuguese legal system is inherently deficient.
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But we don't know how many people have been banged up on False Confessions after Torture.
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"Kicking" is stretching a point as the victim is paralysed below the waist.
Mitchell and his associate were acquitted and allowed to return to the UK although the acquittal was overturned by a higher court afterwards. The decision to drop the European Arrest Warrant was in my view sensible.
So putting all this in the context of Montclair's postulation, we have on this forum arrived at two dubious cases in a time span approaching twenty years. Grist to Montclair's mill one would have thought rather than an indication that the Portuguese legal system is inherently deficient.
we still do not have one case of a miscarriage of justice...which is what this thread and montclairs statement is about
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There seems to be a desperation to show that the Portuguese gaols are full of wrongly convicted people who were incarcerated on the basis of confessions extracted by means of torture. There does not appear to be any evidence to substantiate that position. Despite the much vaunted Amnesty International comments about the Cipriano torture I don't hear them making much of a song and dance about anything else in Portugal.
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Amnesty International have no teeth. They can't actually do anything.
However, there is no doubt that other cases of torture have occurred, and a few PJ Officers have been convicted of this, eventually. I find it hard to believe that these were the only ones.
The case against Amaral by Leandro Silva is still pending.
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There seems to be a desperation to show that the Portuguese gaols are full of wrongly convicted people who were incarcerated on the basis of confessions extracted by means of torture. There does not appear to be any evidence to substantiate that position. Despite the much vaunted Amnesty International comments about the Cipriano torture I don't hear them making much of a song and dance about anything else in Portugal.
you are wrong again...there are other cases on the amnesty website...Almeida has also been convicted of actual torture yet us still allowed to be a member of the police force
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another from amnesty
•By the end of the year, no trial date had been set for three judicial police officers accused of torturing Virgolino Borges in March 2000. The case was due to go to trial in November 2008 but was delayed pending further medical examinations requested by the defence. Virgolino Borges said that he had been tortured by police officers who punched him and beat him on the soles of his feet with a wooden post while in custody. The investigation had been closed in 2005 by the public prosecutor, who stated that Virgolino Borges’ injuries could have been self-inflicted. Virgolino Borges appealed against this decision to the Lisbon region courts: first to the Tribunal de Instrução and then to the Tribunal da Relação, which in November 2005 ordered that the case go to trial
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another from 2009
•The Court of Appeal in Lisbon ordered a retrial in the case of Albino Libânio, who was assaulted by prison officers in Lisbon Prison in 2003. The Court granted a request by Albino Libânio's lawyers for the Portuguese state to be named as a defendant. The decision was made on the grounds that, as his injuries occurred while he was in the care of the prison system, the state should be held liable even if it was impossible to prove which prison officers were responsible for the attack. The original trial had recognized the injuries suffered by Albino Libânio but acquitted all seven prison officers of assault because of lack of evidence proving their responsibility. A new trial date had not been set at the end of the year.
same as cipriano...court accepts torture had taken place but acquits officers because it cant be sure which ones are responsible
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another from 2009
•The Court of Appeal in Lisbon ordered a retrial in the case of Albino Libânio, who was assaulted by prison officers in Lisbon Prison in 2003. The Court granted a request by Albino Libânio's lawyers for the Portuguese state to be named as a defendant. The decision was made on the grounds that, as his injuries occurred while he was in the care of the prison system, the state should be held liable even if it was impossible to prove which prison officers were responsible for the attack. The original trial had recognized the injuries suffered by Albino Libânio but acquitted all seven prison officers of assault because of lack of evidence proving their responsibility. A new trial date had not been set at the end of the year.
same as cipriano...court accepts torture had taken place but acquits officers because it cant be sure which ones are responsible
But they do know. They just don't try very hard to prove it.
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You are all wrong (according to a handful of people).
- There are no miscarriages of justice in Portugal.
- There is no child abuse or major crime of any kind unless it involves foreigners.
- Amaral donated all his earnings from the "Maddie" case to charity.
- The PJ is in the top category of the most efficient police forces in the world.
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You are all wrong (according to a handful of people).
- There are no miscarriages of justice in Portugal.
- There is no child abuse or major crime of any kind unless it involves foreigners.
- Amaral donated all his earnings from the "Maddie" case to charity.
- The PJ is in the top category of the most efficient police forces in the world.
So glad that you put us right on that Carana.....................I have been having nightmares consisting of ,defenceless women beating cowards and a cruel uncaring legal system, more interested in being authors and making money out of the pain suffered by relatives of victims, than solving a crime.
I feel better now about my granddaughter going there on holiday, now that I have read your words.
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You are all wrong (according to a handful of people).
- There are no miscarriages of justice in Portugal.
- There is no child abuse or major crime of any kind unless it involves foreigners.
- Amaral donated all his earnings from the "Maddie" case to charity.
- The PJ is in the top category of the most efficient police forces in the world.
yes, and all Portuguese pigs are born with wings and fly from cloud to cloud rootling for unicorn eggs.
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http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/eur/154445.htm#
http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/annual-report-portugal-2013.
Us State Dept Report 2010/2011 and Amnesty International 2013 report.
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http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/eur/154445.htm#
http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/annual-report-portugal-2013.
Us State Dept Report 2010/2011 and Amnesty International 2013 report.
This is very damning from the US report..
In its 2009 report the CPT noted that few detained persons had an effective right of access to legal counsel during police custody. While police registers indicated that detainees were informed of their right to an attorney, a considerable number of detained persons complained that, in fact, they had not been informed of their rights. In some police stations there was a "striking discrepancy" between the number of detainees who were recorded as having been informed of their rights and the number who actually exercised their rights.
Lengthy pretrial detention remained a problem. As of October 15, 2,289 individuals (20 percent of the prison population) were in preventive detention, an increase from the previous year. The average detention time was eight months; approximately 20 percent of preventive detainees spent more than one year in incarceration. Lengthy pretrial detention is usually due to lengthy investigations and legal procedures, judicial inefficiency, or staff shortages. If a detainee is convicted, pretrial detention counts against a prison sentence. If found innocent, a detainee has the right to request compensation.
So few suspects have access to legal advice during custody...no wonder the police get away with beating suspects
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This is very damning from the US report..
In its 2009 report the CPT noted that few detained persons had an effective right of access to legal counsel during police custody. While police registers indicated that detainees were informed of their right to an attorney, a considerable number of detained persons complained that, in fact, they had not been informed of their rights. In some police stations there was a "striking discrepancy" between the number of detainees who were recorded as having been informed of their rights and the number who actually exercised their rights.
Lengthy pretrial detention remained a problem. As of October 15, 2,289 individuals (20 percent of the prison population) were in preventive detention, an increase from the previous year. The average detention time was eight months; approximately 20 percent of preventive detainees spent more than one year in incarceration. Lengthy pretrial detention is usually due to lengthy investigations and legal procedures, judicial inefficiency, or staff shortages. If a detainee is convicted, pretrial detention counts against a prison sentence. If found innocent, a detainee has the right to request compensation.
So few suspects have access to legal advice during custody...no wonder the police get away with beating suspects
And where does it say that these detainees were alll beaten up?
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And where does it say that these detainees were alll beaten up?
So few detainees had access to a solicitor...this may seem normal to you but is totally unacceptable in a civilised country
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And where does it say that these detainees were alll beaten up?
Does a legal system where a considerable number of detainees are denied legal counsel lead to greater or fewer miscarriages of justice in your view, or do you think it doesn't really make any difference either way?
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And where does it say that these detainees were alll beaten up?
Okay. Only a few.
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Of course it would be interesting to compare the Portuguese performance against that of the USA.
Before your very eyes in St Louis is an example of how much better the Americans are.
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Okay. Only a few.
How many people who were beaten up, would dare to put their heads above the parapet to tell the world?
Also, generally, we dont have access to PT cases, do we? So how many is only a few?
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Of course it would be interesting to compare the Portuguese performance against that of the USA.
Before your very eyes in St Louis is an example of how much better the Americans are.
anything to deflect away from the deficiencies in the Portuguese legal system.....which is what this board is concerned with
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Of course it would be interesting to compare the Portuguese performance against that of the USA.
Before your very eyes in St Louis is an example of how much better the Americans are.
Whether or not the USA justice system is better or worse than the PT justice system is of absolutely no relevance to the question of whether or not miscarriages of justice ever occur in Portugal. We have been told by Montclair that they NEVER occur, which would seem to put Portugal at the very top of the justice league table. Is that really where it is, d'you think?
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We have been told by Montclair that (unlike for example the UK and the US) miscarriages of justice NEVER occur in Portugal, which would seem to put Portugal at the very top of the justice league table. Is that really where it is, d'you think?
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Now let me ponder a while.......
Why has no one found a credible report of miscarriage of justice in Portugal?
One of two reasons spring to mind.
There are none...Montclair.
ALL of them are covered up so successfully that even Amnesty International has only had a sniff of three dubious unproven ones in Portugal over the last 20 years...McCann supporters.
I find both theories equally improbable.
US State Department reports, links as provided (trolled?), suggest the world is much of a muchness in that no one has a squeaky clean record vis a vis human rights violations. None is free from fault but some are worse than others.
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We have been told by Montclair that (unlike for example the UK and the US) miscarriages of justice NEVER occur in Portugal, which would seem to put Portugal at the very top of the justice league table. Is that really where it is, d'you think?
Come now sir were there a league table as you postulate it would there in black and white for all to see and no need for debate.
I would hazard a guess that Portugal is not that different from other places in Europe.
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Come now sir were there a league table as you postulate it would there in black and white for all to see and no need for debate.
I would hazard a guess that Portugal is not that different from other places in Europe.
The Uk is in Europe and we have miscarriages of justice...why are there none in Portugal is the question you wish to avoid
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The worse a country's justice system, and the less democratic that country's society, the lower the likelihood of miscarriages of justice ever coming to light.
I bet North Korea has never had a miscarriage of justice either, not one that was ever officially uncovered or reported.
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Merciful heavens! Moderators please delete the links this poor humble poster has provided as apparently they are trolling.The Lord High Panjandrum has decreed so.
I humbly beseech you O moderators not to inflict punishment which will infringe my human rights.
Now let me ponder a while.......
Why has no one found a credible report of miscarriage of justice in Portugal?
One of two reasons spring to mind.
There are none...Montclair.
ALL of them are covered up so successfully that even Amnesty International has only had a sniff of three dubious unproven ones in Portugal over the last 20 years...McCann supporters.
I find both theories equally improbable.
US State Department reports, links as provided (trolled?), suggest the world is much of a muchness in that no one has a squeaky clean record vis a vis human rights violations. None is free from fault but some are worse than others.
I tend to believe Montclair....The justice system is so weighted towards the state in Portugal that miscarriages of justice are not admitted to....innocents rot in jail
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The worse a country's justice system, and the less democratic that country's society, the lower the likelihood of miscarriages of justice ever coming to light.
I bet North Korea has never had a miscarriage of justice either, not one that was ever officially uncovered or reported.
exactly
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Come now sir were there a league table as you postulate it would there in black and white for all to see and no need for debate.
I would hazard a guess that Portugal is not that different from other places in Europe.
Actually Portugal is ranked 35th in the world for Human Rights, considerably lower down the league table than the UK or the USA
http://www.ihrri.com/contry.php
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I tend to believe Montclair....The justice system is so weighted towards the state in Portugal that miscarriages of justice are not admitted to....innocents rot in jail
That's what worries me. The PJ were all powerful for far too long. Any Police Force that indulges in Torture are admitting to that fact.
And some of The Judges were condoning this.
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Davel believes Montclair is right; Alfred R Jones has it that Portugal rank 35th in the league table on human rights violations.
Obviously the FCO have no gripes about that or we would be told to stay well clear of Portugal. Now we know
Jobs a good 'un; Admin can lock the thread. Next please.