UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Eleanor on August 23, 2014, 08:08:26 AM
-
I wonder if anyone checked on the details of the incident at Odiaxere. Could this have been a red herring to occupy The GNR?
-
I wonder if anyone checked on the details of the incident at Odiaxere. Could this have been a red herring to occupy The GNR?
A respected poster in another place sourced an article in a Portuguese paper giving details of a big celebration for an anniversary involving the GNR; this involved displays of all kinds including dogs and took place on the 3rd.
A call out to Odiaxere in conjunction with this event having taken place on that day is interesting to say the least.
I have tried to locate a cite for this celebration; can anyone help?
-
A respected poster in another place sourced an article in a Portuguese paper giving details of a big celebration for an anniversary involving the GNR; this involved displays of all kinds including dogs and took place on the 3rd.
A call out to Odiaxere in conjunction with this event having taken place on that day is interesting to say the least.
I have tried to locate a cite for this celebration; can anyone help?
You don't mean that The GNR were at a Party, do you? All of them? Since none of them seem to have been at their Police Station.
But nothing largely suspicious about that, if that is the case.
-
A respected poster in another place sourced an article in a Portuguese paper giving details of a big celebration for an anniversary involving the GNR; this involved displays of all kinds including dogs and took place on the 3rd.
A call out to Odiaxere in conjunction with this event having taken place on that day is interesting to say the least.
I have tried to locate a cite for this celebration; can anyone help?
Any help?............................
This is in the DN search. It Is the headline only and wont allow the opening of the page dated 4 may 2007 The other article below the first opened OK It was the GNR 96th anniversary.……………………………...
Yesterday, Daisy, a bitch to breed goldenretrivier, for ten years, he received a gold medal: Philanthropist by the president of the Society of Protective Animals, Thomas de Barros de Queiroz, as part of the celebrations of the 96 th anniversary of GNR, in a ceremony that was attended, among others, with the presence of the prime minister, Jose Socrates, and Antonio Costa, Minister of State for Internal Administration.
http://www.dn.pt/pesquisa/default.aspx?Pesquisa=gnr&dateini=01-09-2006&datefim=30-09-2007&numPag=22&sort=date
The former owners, resident in Lisbon, was handed in to the company of the cinotecnia Guard School, with its headquarters in Queluz, by being a bitch that "ladrava too". Yesterday, Daisy, a bitch to breed goldenretrivier, for ten years, he received a gold medal: Philanthropist by the president of the Company Protecting the Animals, Take Barros de Queiroz, as part of the celebrations of the 96 th anniversary of GNR, in a ceremony that was attended, among others, with the presence of the prime minister, Jose Socrates, and Antonio Costa, Minister of State for Internal Administration. Beside her, Buggy, a dog of breed cockerspaniel, received a medal of animal protection organizations, degree gold.
"This year we wanted to decorate an attendant but, yes, customize our thanks in the figure of the dog, because without it our work would not be possible. Is our public recognition", explained the DN the captain Costa Pinto, commander of Company Cinotecnica of GNR.
Margaret, which began its activity in cinotecnica da GNR in July 1998, in the area of drug detection, " was one of the best animals we have had here. She saved the lives of 15 people and found nine other already without life. IS a bitch with a great capacity for concentration and that never tired of search process", he added. AND Buggy, with identical personality redeemed with life four people and found eight dead.
Both have been involved in missions of search and rescue that took place in Portugal, Iran, Algeria, Morocco and Italy. However, currently, "no longer meet the physical conditions necessary" and, therefore, have been removed from the active. Margaret has cataracts in one eye. Away missions, are now in the custody of their handlers. |
http://www.dn.pt/Inicio/interior.aspx?content_id=656931
-
Any help?............................
This is in the DN search. It Is the headline only and wont allow the opening of the page dated 4 may 2007 The other article below the first opened OK It was the GNR 96th anniversary.……………………………...
Yesterday, Daisy, a bitch to breed goldenretrivier, for ten years, he received a gold medal: Philanthropist by the president of the Society of Protective Animals, Thomas de Barros de Queiroz, as part of the celebrations of the 96 th anniversary of GNR, in a ceremony that was attended, among others, with the presence of the prime minister, Jose Socrates, and Antonio Costa, Minister of State for Internal Administration.
http://www.dn.pt/pesquisa/default.aspx?Pesquisa=gnr&dateini=01-09-2006&datefim=30-09-2007&numPag=22&sort=date
The former owners, resident in Lisbon, was handed in to the company of the cinotecnia Guard School, with its headquarters in Queluz, by being a bitch that "ladrava too". Yesterday, Daisy, a bitch to breed goldenretrivier, for ten years, he received a gold medal: Philanthropist by the president of the Company Protecting the Animals, Take Barros de Queiroz, as part of the celebrations of the 96 th anniversary of GNR, in a ceremony that was attended, among others, with the presence of the prime minister, Jose Socrates, and Antonio Costa, Minister of State for Internal Administration. Beside her, Buggy, a dog of breed cockerspaniel, received a medal of animal protection organizations, degree gold.
"This year we wanted to decorate an attendant but, yes, customize our thanks in the figure of the dog, because without it our work would not be possible. Is our public recognition", explained the DN the captain Costa Pinto, commander of Company Cinotecnica of GNR.
Margaret, which began its activity in cinotecnica da GNR in July 1998, in the area of drug detection, " was one of the best animals we have had here. She saved the lives of 15 people and found nine other already without life. IS a bitch with a great capacity for concentration and that never tired of search process", he added. AND Buggy, with identical personality redeemed with life four people and found eight dead.
Both have been involved in missions of search and rescue that took place in Portugal, Iran, Algeria, Morocco and Italy. However, currently, "no longer meet the physical conditions necessary" and, therefore, have been removed from the active. Margaret has cataracts in one eye. Away missions, are now in the custody of their handlers. |
http://www.dn.pt/Inicio/interior.aspx?content_id=656931
Good find, Anna. Was this celebration in Lisbon? It's difficult to tell.
But this article will no doubt come in handy in future.
-
Good find, Anna. Was this celebration in Lisbon? It's difficult to tell.
But this article will no doubt come in handy in future.
I believe I read the celebration was lisboa somewhere, but cant find it right now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A lot happening on the day Maddie disappeared and not pleasing to some, I would think.............................................................
4th may 2007
On the same day that the GNR celebrated the 96 th anniversary, the Council of Ministers adopted two legislative proposals aimed at changing the whole organization of the Guard and the PSP and put into practice the announced restructuring of the security forces.
The proposals approved yesterday, that the CM had access, not only transform the structure of GNR and PSP as they give more power to the Government to intervene in the organization of the security forces.
The proposal for the organic law of the GNR puts it under direct dependence of the captain-general of GNR the inspection body, the bodies of the council and the general secretariat. But, within the Command, enables the Government to define "the number, skills, services and the leadership, the newly created components upper control and direction - responsible for operations, human resources and property and by the command of the doctrine and training.
Also the proposal of organic law of PSP gives the Government power to "adopt, by ordinance, the number, the powers, the internal structure and the posts" of three organic units operating in the National Directorate of PSP - in the area of operations and safety, human resources and the logistics and finance.
The reform "requires a change in the structure and working methods", underlined the minister of Internal Administration, Antonio Costa, the ceri- mónia anniversary of GNR.
In fact, the GNR is the institution that suffers most, at the level of the structure, with the amendments adopted. As regards the Comando-Geral , are extinguished the Military Staff or General coordinator and the Special Military or technical, as well as the Cabinet of Advisors and inspectors and the Commission of Equestrian Affairs.
The Territorial Brigades disappear, giving place in the hierarchy to now called Territorial Commands (CT), under orders from a colonel or lieutenant-colonel and not a general as until now. The CT shall be replaced to match the administrative districts and shall be composed of the secondments (controlled by major or captain) - that are articulated in subdestacamentos or jobs (under the command of sergeants or junior officers).
With the extinction of Traffic Brigade, the Fiscal Brigade and the regiments of Infantry and Cavalry, the Special Units become four. Now created Security Unit and Honors of State will now be the presidential squadron and the subunits of trim. The special operations, cinotecnia, inactivation of explosives and the units of public order and of protection and relief will be centered on the Unit of Intervention. It was created the Control Unit and the Coastal Unit Fiscal Action.
The commander general of the Guard, general Mourato Nunes, said yesterday that it treats the "change with tranquility".
PSP WITH A SPECIAL UNIT
The main changes in PSP relate to special units. The Group of Special Operations, the Body and the Body of Personal Safety are included one unit - also composed by the Center of Inactivation of Explosives and Safety in Subsoil and the Operational Group Cinotecnico.
According to the draft law, the territorial units (which are called territorial commands) maintains the model of regional commands, metropolitan and district. However, for the Azores is created a single command regional - that absorbs the three already existing. Reporting directly to the national director of the PSP are the Superior Council of Police, the Board of ethics and Discipline and the Upper Seal of Health, Inspection and the Department of General Support and Services.
The management of organic units, operations and safety (reinforced with the criminal investigation and the private security), human resources and logistics and finance will be approved by the Government.
DOGS-POLICE WHO RECEIVED
'Daisy' and 'Buggy' were the first dogs of GNR to be soldiers in a military ceremony. In front of the Jeronimos Monastery, in Bethlehem, where it took the commemorations, 'Daisy' and 'Buggy' received a medal by in-service behavior. Now reformed, the golden retrivier leaves a curriculum with 163 missions met, between which the earthquakes in Algeria, Iran and Morocco. The cocker buggy participated in searches of Between-the-Rivers.
Also passed by Iran, Algeria and Morocco and polled 160 rescue operations. At the ceremony were still decorated several military and remember the dead in services. Jose Socrates reminded them with a crown of flowers, while the parents of a soldier - hit mortally in Elvas - showed his nostalgia.
LEARN MORE
427 million euros is the investment that the Government provides, during the next five years, to create facilities and provide new equipment to the security forces.
18 Is the number of now called territorial commands that now exist in GNR. With the previous law, still in force, there were 23 regional groups.
MORE OPERATIONAL
With the restructuring, the MAI would release around 4800 professionals of PSP and GNR in bureaucratic functions, for service on the street.
NEW LAW
In the next month will be presented with the new Internal Security Act and the Statute m of Military of GNR.
REDISTRIBUTION
on 1 June the areas of GNR that pass for the PSP and vice versa (in Lisbon and Porto) begin to be delivered.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/governo-com-mais-poder
-
Yes it was Lisbon...
Sorry wrong link
correct link..............
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?111179-Today-s-Pix-Thursday-May-3th-2007
pictures...............................
-
Of course, The GNR are Military and part of The Army, as in France. And not actually Detectives. Although I don't suppose that this has anything much at all to do with anything.
They just aren't the best people to preserve a Crime Scene.
-
Of course, The GNR are Military and part of The Army, as in France. And not actually Detectives. Although I don't suppose that this has anything much at all to do with anything.
They just aren't the best people to preserve a Crime Scene.
No. it does not have much to do with anything. except there would be a shortage of GNR (their regular bobby) on the streets that day.
-
Yes it was Lisbon...
Sorry wrong link
correct link..............
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?111179-Today-s-Pix-Thursday-May-3th-2007
pictures...............................
I read the article in the Algarve Resident edition printed around 11/5/2007. Unfortunately links to historic copies of the newspaper seem to have been removed earlier this year, but if anyone can access the history they will find it.
I also noticed in the same edition that there was an Erotica fair in town during the same week, but was unable to find any further information about that on the internet at the time of looking (thinking of the paedophile angle)
Curiously, there was also a report of a play "Lock Up Your Daughters" being shown in Luz around the last week in April 2007 - eerie considering the title of the Telegraph article found in RM's possession, although I understand he was in the UK at the time of the production.
The PJ spoke to the training school at Queluz (Lisbon) re. the search & rescue dogs, and I am guessing the reason those particular dogs were not deployed until 24 hours later may be explained by the celebrations.
For photos of the dogs' involvement in public events, it's worth a look at the Facebook page Grupo de Intervenção Cinotécnico da GNR (GIC) - K9
-
No. it does not have much to do with anything. except there would be a shortage of GNR (their regular bobby) on the streets that day.
They can't be regular Bobbies on the street if they are Military. They simply don't have the training. But never mind. They did their best. I hope.
-
Yes it was Lisbon...
Sorry wrong link
correct link..............
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?111179-Today-s-Pix-Thursday-May-3th-2007
pictures...............................
Great research, Anna, I've never known you to fail.
-
Darn the 'abductors' knew all about these 'events' going on.
%£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
Rearrange the words.....................
STRAWS,AT and CLUTCHING.
-
Yet another similarity to the Joana case......There was a celebration in that area also, on the day of her disappearance
-
There is something about a GNR callout to Odiaxere somewhere, I remember reading about it and that it was a false alarm(?) although I may be mistaken in that memory.
At the moment the only reference I have found so far to anything which had police involvement is as follows ...
- Clip -
Joao Franciso Pascoa Luis Trigo Barreiras
Occupation: PJ Deputy Specialist
Place of work: Criminal Investigation Department Portimao
He is a specialist in the area of Criminology for the PJ and works in the Criminal Investigation department in Portimao.
His professional responsibilities are to carry out examinations at crime scenes, such as detecting finger prints, biological examinations as well as the identification, signalling and collection of other traces. He is also responsible for making photographic reports and sketches. On the date of the events - 3rd May 2007 he was on duty at the Portimao DIC.
At about 00.10 on the morning of the 4th, he had just finished filing a report about a fire, when he was informed that a child had disappeared in Praia da Luz.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm
-
I have managed to locate the article I saw in the Algarve Resident dated 10/5/2007 re. the GNR Celebrations. You will note that there was a display in Albufeira on 3/5/2007 which finished at 6pm.
http://portugalresident.com/gnr-celebrates-96th-anniversary
y: Eloise Waltoneloise@portugalresident.comACROSS PORTUGAL, the Guarda Nacional Republicana (GNR) celebrated their 96th birthday on May 3. The GNR institution began in 1911 as a military security force.Celebrations on this day included a military parade in the Praça do Império in Lisbon, which was presided over by the Prime Minister José Sócrates as well as other high placed civilians and military personnel.In the Algarve, the event was celebrated by the Albufeira GNR with a special demonstration in the car park opposite the Court house, from 9.30am to 6pm. The event was well attended by the many smiling faces and curious hands of schoolchildren from around the Albufeira primary schools.This is the first year of a new initiative by the Albufeira Division. “If we have all these resources, why not show them off to the public and demonstrate that we are an integral and approachable part of the community,” said the Commander of the Albufeira GNR José Rodrigues.Every department of the Albufeira GNR was represented at the exhibition. The canine department of the GNR of Portimão and Albufeira put on two dog shows to the delight and applause of all the children and adults present. The audience was amazed both by the dogs’ obedience and their enjoyment of the work they do.Contrary to popular belief, sniffer dogs are not trained using actual drugs, but instead the smell of the drug is used in a special toy for them to find during training. The dogs can identify a large number of substances and are rewarded after the correct identification of an illegal substance with an odorless toy.The two breeds of dogs mostly used by the GNR are German Shepherds, used often for patrols and public order, and retriever Labradors used for searching for missing persons and illegal substances.Other departments included the department for the protection of nature and the environment, the fiscal brigade, the safe schooling nucleus and the territorial department.All of the children present were encouraged to ask questions, pet the animals, enter the GNR vehicles which included; bicycles, cars, off road vehicles and motorbikes, and take a ride on a horse! Music was played throughout the day giving a relaxed and inviting atmosphere to the event.Do you have a view on this story? Email: editor@portugalresident.com
-
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
G.N.R. Military Personnel
Concerning the issue of the process said;
. In the sequence of facts, he was with the patrol of the GNR that went to the Ocean Club Gardens establishment (situated in Para da Luz) on night of May 03, 2007, with the goal of investigating the circumstances that surrounded the disappearance of a minor, of British nationality, that was installed there temporarily, together with the rest of her more direct family ' knowing these to be, the respective parents, and two siblings, twins, minors, whose name do not need to be clarified;
. Clarifies that the occurrence in question was transmitted to the above referenced patrol via radio, at time when they were located in Odiaxere;
. The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm
-
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
G.N.R. Military Personnel
Concerning the issue of the process said;
. In the sequence of facts, he was with the patrol of the GNR that went to the Ocean Club Gardens establishment (situated in Para da Luz) on night of May 03, 2007, with the goal of investigating the circumstances that surrounded the disappearance of a minor, of British nationality, that was installed there temporarily, together with the rest of her more direct family ' knowing these to be, the respective parents, and two siblings, twins, minors, whose name do not need to be clarified;
. Clarifies that the occurrence in question was transmitted to the above referenced patrol via radio, at time when they were located in Odiaxere;
. The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm
Revised translation.
Processos Volume II
Pages 331 - 333
Witness Statement
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H00
Occupation: Head of Accommodation
Place of Work: Ocean Club
He comes to the process as a witness. He has worked as Head of Accommodation at the resort for seven years, but has been employed there for the past 18 years.
His functions are the management of bookings and the control of contracts whether with private individuals or travel agencies. He is responsible for the management and supervision of the reception.
As concerns the facts being investigated, he says he received the McCann booking as normal and he points out that this reservation was made by Mark Warner, whose representative is John Hill.
He says that it is normal for each reservation to make specifications and that in this case in concrete a request was made that the four families should be accommodated close to each other and a ground floor apartment was requested enabling easy access for the families with small children.
He adds that this family booked from 28th April to 5th May on a half board basis, in other words, breakfast and dinner. For dinner the guests could choose between two options, the Tapas and the Millenium and although the meals are identical, the clients choose the restaurant according to its proximity to their accommodation.
In this case in concrete, the rational choice for dinner would be the Tapas restaurant as it is 100 metres distance from the apartment, whilst the Millenium is situated 600 metres away.
The witness states that from the restaurant it is possible to see the apartment including the window of the living room and the bedroom where the parents slept. The bedroom where the three children slept, situated at the opposite end of the apartment was completely outside of the field of sight of anyone in the Tapas restaurant.
Therefore the most viable solution would be to leave the children in the parents bedroom or in the living room where they could easily be checked from the place where the parents were dining.
When questioned about the availability of a baby sitting service from 19.30 to 23.30 he confirms that this service exists and that it is free.
When asked, the witness replies that he cannot understand why as the service was free, the McCanns did not use it.
When asked, he says that before the disappearance he did not have any contact with the family, they were “just” clients like hundreds of others who stayed at the resort.
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
The witness then went to the apartment where there was an agglomeration of persons, however he managed to perceive that the apartment did not show any sign of disturbance not that anyone had attempted to break in.
He adds that he heard it said at the scene that the mother had not left the shutter open as she always closed the shutter when she left. When asked, he says that he did not notice anything strange in relation to the apartment or its surroundings.
The witness states that the resort did not have any kind of security or cameras.
He never saw anything suspicious or abnormal. He was asked to provide a copy of the rooming list, showing the information relating to the booking made by the family, which he immediately provided and which is annexed to the statement.
The witness says that he has nothing else useful to add.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post142.html#p142
-
There is something about a GNR callout to Odiaxere somewhere, I remember reading about it and that it was a false alarm(?) although I may be mistaken in that memory.
At the moment the only reference I have found so far to anything which had police involvement is as follows ...
- Clip -
Joao Franciso Pascoa Luis Trigo Barreiras
Occupation: PJ Deputy Specialist
Place of work: Criminal Investigation Department Portimao
He is a specialist in the area of Criminology for the PJ and works in the Criminal Investigation department in Portimao.
His professional responsibilities are to carry out examinations at crime scenes, such as detecting finger prints, biological examinations as well as the identification, signalling and collection of other traces. He is also responsible for making photographic reports and sketches. On the date of the events - 3rd May 2007 he was on duty at the Portimao DIC.
At about 00.10 on the morning of the 4th, he had just finished filing a report about a fire, when he was informed that a child had disappeared in Praia da Luz.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm
Yes I remember a false alarm mentioned too, but at the moment the only mention I can find is below.
Revised translation.
Processos Volume II
Pages 331 - 333
Witness Statement
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H00
Occupation: Head of Accommodation
Place of Work: Ocean Club
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
-
Yes I remember a false alarm mentioned too, but at the moment the only mention I can find is below.
Revised translation.
Processos Volume II
Pages 331 - 333
Witness Statement
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H00
Occupation: Head of Accommodation
Place of Work: Ocean Club
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
It looks like a perfect storm to me.
The holiday apartment with its recessed, secluded front door for which we now know the key had gone missing; the fact that home invasions where British children were being assaulted in their beds and burglaries, two of which had occurred in Block 5 were taking place with apparent impunity; witnesses who saw men in the environs of apartment 5a whose interest appeared to be intensely focussed on that particular residence.
It stands to reason that those GNR officers and their dogs who had been on duty at the day long anniversary celebration would not have been available on the 3rd May.
In that knowledge if a crime was planned to be carried out and an escape made it wouldn’t have been too difficult to ensure there would be a delayed police response by arranging, for what must have been an unusually depleted force, to be elsewhere at the requisite time.
The attendance of GNR personnel at the all day celebration and the local GNR unit diverted to a call in Odiaxere provided a unique opportunity.
-
It looks like a perfect storm to me.
The holiday apartment with its recessed, secluded front door for which we now know the key had gone missing; the fact that home invasions where British children were being assaulted in their beds and burglaries, two of which had occurred in Block 5 were taking place with apparent impunity; witnesses who saw men in the environs of apartment 5a whose interest appeared to be intensely focussed on that particular residence.
It stands to reason that those GNR officers and their dogs who had been on duty at the day long anniversary celebration would not have been available on the 3rd May.
In that knowledge if a crime was planned to be carried out and an escape made it wouldn’t have been too difficult to ensure there would be a delayed police response by arranging, for what must have been an unusually depleted force, to be elsewhere at the requisite time.
The attendance of GNR personnel at the all day celebration and the local GNR unit diverted to a call in Odiaxere provided a unique opportunity.
I agree Brietta . It would be a perfect plan for an abductor. I believe the phone calls that were of interest to SC , started about the time that Madeleine left the crèche/high tea..........So they could have been waiting for a window of opportunity, but there was a lot of checks and movement that night, by parents, which would have been a hitch in the plan....JMO
-
It looks like a perfect storm to me.
The holiday apartment with its recessed, secluded front door for which we now know the key had gone missing; the fact that home invasions where British children were being assaulted in their beds and burglaries, two of which had occurred in Block 5 were taking place with apparent impunity; witnesses who saw men in the environs of apartment 5a whose interest appeared to be intensely focussed on that particular residence.
It stands to reason that those GNR officers and their dogs who had been on duty at the day long anniversary celebration would not have been available on the 3rd May.
In that knowledge if a crime was planned to be carried out and an escape made it wouldn’t have been too difficult to ensure there would be a delayed police response by arranging, for what must have been an unusually depleted force, to be elsewhere at the requisite time.
The attendance of GNR personnel at the all day celebration and the local GNR unit diverted to a call in Odiaxere provided a unique opportunity.
I wonder how they might get to know about the day long anniversary?
And I wonder how the ?false call out to Odiaxere was managed? There must be some Police record of it.
Seems some impressive planning might have been put in place, with all the watching before hand as well.
-
I wonder how they might get to know about the day long anniversary?
And I wonder how the ?false call out to Odiaxere was managed? There must be some Police record of it.
Seems some impressive planning might have been put in place, with all the watching before hand as well.
IIRC in the phone records in the files you can see a call from a security company to the GNR station in Lagos, it seems reasonable to assume this was to report the suspected incident in the Odiaxere area.
-
It looks like a perfect storm to me.
The holiday apartment with its recessed, secluded front door for which we now know the key had gone missing; the fact that home invasions where British children were being assaulted in their beds and burglaries, two of which had occurred in Block 5 were taking place with apparent impunity; witnesses who saw men in the environs of apartment 5a whose interest appeared to be intensely focussed on that particular residence.
It stands to reason that those GNR officers and their dogs who had been on duty at the day long anniversary celebration would not have been available on the 3rd May.
In that knowledge if a crime was planned to be carried out and an escape made it wouldn’t have been too difficult to ensure there would be a delayed police response by arranging, for what must have been an unusually depleted force, to be elsewhere at the requisite time.
The attendance of GNR personnel at the all day celebration and the local GNR unit diverted to a call in Odiaxere provided a unique opportunity.
Firstly didn't the celebration finish at 6pm ? Secondly how do we know the key to 5a had gone missing ?
-
I agree Brietta . It would be a perfect plan for an abductor. I believe the phone calls that were of interest to SC , started about the time that Madeleine left the crèche/high tea..........So they could have been waiting for a window of opportunity, but there was a lot of checks and movement that night, by parents, which would have been a hitch in the plan....JMO
With a key, it wouldn't take long Anna
Since I broke my ankles a few years back, I have become a poor walker, but with a key, I could open the front door, walk the short distance, open the window and shutter, lift Madeleine and be out in a matter of about a minute. So it didn't need a very big window of oportunity.
I have actually measured the distances and tried that, so I know it is feasible. I dont have shutters but I allowed a suitable period.
That walled pathway from the front door would be the big worry, the abductor would be kind of trapped there if anyone came.
It is quite long (about 25 yards) and half way along it is well lit.
IMO, in order to avoid that pathway walk, it is likely that a second person was standing on the other side of the pathway wall, immediately by the front door recess and Madeleine was passed over the pathway wall at that spot.
From there it was just a stride into the surrounding trees with Madeleine, if anyone came.
That end of the car park was very dark. The trees blanked virtually all the street light out.
-
I wonder how they might get to know about the day long anniversary?
And I wonder how the ?false call out to Odiaxere was managed? There must be some Police record of it.
Seems some impressive planning might have been put in place, with all the watching before hand as well.
I think that such a big celebration would have been known about all over Portugal otherwise there would not be any spectators, quite a few families from Figuera were there watching their own GNR in displays too.
It Is only a possibility and I have not found anything to support that there was false call for Odiaxere, but can find no news to substantiate the claim by the manager who said that he was informed by the receptionist that he(receptionist) had been told by the GnR that they were attending a theft there and it was causing delay. He is the only one who has mentioned a reason for a delay and said he had phoned GNR Several times......I believe he said that he phoned again! His statement should be on here further down
-
I agree Brietta . It would be a perfect plan for an abductor. I believe the phone calls that were of interest to SC , started about the time that Madeleine left the crèche/high tea..........So they could have been waiting for a window of opportunity, but there was a lot of checks and movement that night, by parents, which would have been a hitch in the plan....JMO
Are you saying Madeleine was particularly targeted Anna and if so why ?
There was many pretty, blonde girls at the OC that week, Bridget O'Donnell told us so, and we know whoever was assaulting the children SY are interested in weren't stopped by their parents being at home so why Madeleine ?
Further are we supposed to believe the assaults on the children were a group effort by several perpetrators ? If it's a burglary I can understand several men being involved but an assault !
-
I think that such a big celebration would have been known about all over Portugal otherwise there would not be any spectators, quite a few families from Figuera were there watching their own GNR in displays too.
It Is only a possibility and I have not found anything to support that there was false call for Odiaxere, but can find no news to substantiate the claim by the manager who said that he was informed by the receptionist that he(receptionist) had been told by the GnR that they were attending a theft there and it was causing delay. He is the only one who has mentioned a reason for a delay and said he had phoned GNR Several times......I believe he said that he phoned again! His statement should be on here further down
So we have actually no reason to believe that the call made to the GNR that night about a theft was a false alarm. Glad we cleared that one up.
Change of thread title is in order I believe Eleanor !
-
So we have actually no reason to believe that the call made to the GNR that night about a theft was a false alarm. Glad we cleared that one up.
Change of thread title is in order I believe Eleanor !
Yes we do have reason. The manager (Hill?) said that the receptionist had informed him that the GNR was delayed by a theft over at Odiaxere
-
Yes we do have reason. The manager (Hill?) said that the receptionist had informed him that the GNR was delayed by a theft over at Odiaxere
I'm not disputing that but it is being implied that this was a hoax call to distract the GNR so the abductors/burglars/assailants ( delete where appropriate ) could carry out their dastardly plan in PDL with impunity. There is simply no evidence for that.
-
Are you saying Madeleine was particularly targeted Anna and if so why ?
There was many pretty, blonde girls at the OC that week, Bridget O'Donnell told us so, and we know whoever was assaulting the children SY are interested in weren't stopped by their parents being at home so why Madeleine ?
Further are we supposed to believe the assaults on the children were a group effort by several perpetrators ? If it's a burglary I can understand several men being involved but an assault !
All I am saying is that,If she was targeted, as I believe has been discussed on here, then a day when there was a shortage of GNR might be favourable. I have no idea why someone would want to take Madeleine and as you say it could possibly be a burglary gone wrong....We don't know what happened as there is no evidence of any crime.
-
All I am saying is that,If she was targeted, as I believe has been discussed on here, then a day when there was a shortage of GNR might be favourable. I have no idea why someone would want to take Madeleine and as you say it could possibly be a burglary gone wrong....We don't know what happened as there is no evidence of any crime.
Then isn't it rather a waste of time to speculate on something when there is not a scintilla of evidence to support it ?
-
Then isn't it rather a waste of time to speculate on something when there is not a scintilla of evidence to support it ?
Oh there are far more pointers to the likelyhood that Madeleine was targetted by strangers than there are to the Mccanns having done anything to get rid of Madeleine.
I cant think of any, other than whipped up hysteria and suspicious minds, that point to the Mccanns having done anything to hurt Madedeleine or get rid of her.
Some very clever people on this forum, Faith, have proved almost every Ant1 / Amaral theory incorrect ... and they used facts, not myths.
Well done guys and gals.
-
A security company (SDP) phoned the GNR station in Lagos at 2229 - it's in the files.
That I think will be the call alerting the GNR to the suspected theft in Odiaxere area.
It is 6.3km (8 minutes) drive from Lagos GNR station to Odiaxere.
So that places the GNR patrol arriving at the suspected theft at Odiaxere at about 2237.
Which fits perfectly with the GNR patrol being in Odiaxere when OC reception calls GNR.
-
Then isn't it rather a waste of time to speculate on something when there is not a scintilla of evidence to support it ?
There is evidence of a celebration which may have caused a shortage of GNR.
There is evidence that a child disappeared , because she was not there at 10pm.
There have been reports of the apartment being watched
There was reported to be a lot of phone activity that evening, which interested The Portugal police and SC
However although a crime most certainly must have been committed , there is no evidence to point to what the crime may have been,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,So we are all speculating!
-
Oh there are far more pointers to the likelyhood that Madeleine was targetted by strangers than there are to the Mccanns having done anything to get rid of Madeleine.
I cant think of any, other than whipped up hysteria and suspicious minds, that point to the Mccanns having done anything to hurt Madedeleine or get rid of her.
Some very clever people on this forum, Faith, have proved almost every Ant1 / Amaral theory incorrect ... and they used facts, not myths.
Well done guys and gals.
Guys and gals ! Now where have I heard that before ?
Back on topic. So who are these strangers sadie ? Mob-handed assailants, bereft-of-any-common-sense burglars or athletic abductors, or perhaps a combination of all three ?
Roll up, roll up and pick a perpetrator !! Everyone's a winner ( or everyone one except the McCanns ) !!
-
There is evidence of a celebration which may have caused a shortage of GNR.
There is evidence that a child disappeared , because she was not there at 10pm.
There have been reports of the apartment being watched
There was reported to be a lot of phone activity that evening, which interested The Portugal police and SC
However although a crime most certainly must have been committed , there is no evidence to point to what the crime may have been,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,So we are all speculating!
But there is absolutely no evidence that the GNR were distracted by a hoax call about a theft, can we agree on that ?
-
But there is absolutely no evidence that the GNR were distracted by a hoax call about a theft, can we agree on that ?
There is the evidence of the receptionist and John Hill. We have no reason to disbelieve them that I know of.
Am off to bed now Faith. Good night all.
-
But there is absolutely no evidence that the GNR were distracted by a hoax call about a theft, can we agree on that ?
Yes and furthermore I already posted the phone record indicating that the call to GNR re Odiaxere came from a legitimate security company (and certainly not from some hoax caller as part of an incredibly convoluted cunning plan).
-
There is the evidence of the receptionist and John Hill. We have no reason to disbelieve them that I know of.
Am off to bed now Faith. Good night all.
The receptionist and John Hill did not suggest the call was a hoax. They simply repeated that the GNR had been delayed because of a call about a theft.
And they call sceptics consiraloons !!!
-
Yes and furthermore I already posted the phone record indicating that the call to GNR re Odiaxere came from a legitimate security company (and certainly not from some hoax caller as part of an incredibly convoluted cunning plan).
You did indeed Pegasus but why let the truth get in the way of a juicy, McCann-absolving conspiracy theory eh ?
-
You did indeed Pegasus but why let the truth get in the way of a juicy, McCann-absolving conspiracy theory eh ?
Well it wouldn't surprise me if someone now claims that the imaginary abduction gang interrupted their escape to Morocco by stopping at Odiaxere at 2229 to break into a building just to deliberately set off its alarm which would autodial the security company who would call GNR, thus diverting GNR from PDL.
-
Well it wouldn't surprise me if someone now claims that the imaginary abduction gang interrupted their escape to Morocco by stopping at Odiaxere at 2229 to break into a building just to deliberately set off its alarm which would autodial the security company who would call GNR, thus diverting GNR from PDL.
Please Pegasus don't give them ideas !
-
Yes and furthermore I already posted the phone record indicating that the call to GNR re Odiaxere came from a legitimate security company (and certainly not from some hoax caller as part of an incredibly convoluted cunning plan).
Think about the timing of that call, pegasus, and think about the timing of the call made as Madeleine was being picked up from day care.
Absolutely no suggestion that a bone fide security company would be part of any conspiracy. However depending on the type of property being guarded by their alarm system a call from them as per procedure might be given more weight than a call saying someone's credit card had been stolen.
How simple it would be to trip an alarm in a sensitive, security guarded and at that time empty building; prompting a call out which would be time consuming as the building would require inspection.
I think the fact that the phone call you have spotted in the record is of interest and when other pointers are factored into the equation intimates a greater likelihood of conspiracy than mere chance.
-
Well it wouldn't surprise me if someone now claims that the imaginary abduction gang interrupted their escape to Morocco by stopping at Odiaxere at 2229 to break into a building just to deliberately set off its alarm which would autodial the security company who would call GNR, thus diverting GNR from PDL.
Just because your research has turned up such an obvious scenario, don't dismiss it out of hand; if someone had thought outside the box in 2007 and investigated that we might have found out if something along those lines was a serious possibility.
-
Just because your research has turned up such an obvious scenario, don't dismiss it out of hand; if someone had thought outside the box in 2007 and investigated that we might have found out if something along those lines was a serious possibility.
Sorry where has this been proven to be a hoax ? Perhaps when the GNR arrived there was evidence of a thief. Perhaps it was investigated but not in connection to the McCann case because there obviously, to boots on the ground, was no connection to the McCann case ?
-
Sorry where has this been proven to be a hoax ? Perhaps when the GNR arrived there was evidence of a thief. Perhaps it was investigated but not in connection to the McCann case because there obviously, to boots on the ground, was no connection to the McCann case ?
Oh my dear as you observed in an earlier post it doesn't take much to start the bunny running. See him now scampering over yonder hill. It makes on wonder!
-
I find anyone who actually believes that there were 'distractions' which suited an 'abductor(s)' must really wear their underpants/knickers on the outside of their normal clothes.
-
I find anyone who actually believes that there were 'distractions' which suited an 'abductor(s)' must really wear their underpants/knickers on the outside of their normal clothes.
Nope ~ that's resevered for those who think the most believable action when finding a child who has died accidentally is to conspire to hide the body.
-
Guys and gals ! Now where have I heard that before ?
Back on topic. So who are these strangers sadie ? Mob-handed assailants, bereft-of-any-common-sense burglars or athletic abductors, or perhaps a combination of all three ?
Roll up, roll up and pick a perpetrator !! Everyone's a winner ( or everyone one except the McCanns ) !!
Guys and gals !
Care to share who else says that? ?{)(**
-
You did indeed Pegasus but why let the truth get in the way of a juicy, McCann-absolving conspiracy theory eh ?
Yep if only someone in PDL had called GNR within the first haf hour, the call re Maddie would have been before the 2229 call re Odiaxere, and the GNR patrol would have come direct from Lagos.
The delay in GNR arriving was entirely due to no-one calling them until 2242.
-
Yep if only someone in PDL had called GNR within the first haf hour, the call re Maddie would have been before the 2229 call re Odiaxere, and the GNR patrol would have come direct from Lagos.
The delay in GNR arriving was entirely due to no-one calling them until 2242.
And if the abductor expected the McCanns to call the police straight away why wait to stage a 'distraction' after they would assume the GNR had been called to PDL.
Back to the drawing board I'm afraid !!!
-
Here is the source for the 2229 call from a security company to GNR.
It seems reasonable to assume this was report to the suspected theft in Odiaxere area.
I already gave the distance and drive time to back this up.
Here are the GNR Lagos station phone records
Processos Vol 11 page 3049
Also you can see the 2 calls to GNR from OC reception and after that two further calls to GNR from mobiles, one by SB.
-
And if the abductor expected the McCanns to call the police straight away why wait to stage a 'distraction' after they would assume the GNR had been called to PDL.
Back to the drawing board I'm afraid !!!
Yes that is a critical fail of the distraction theory - the so-called abduction gang would be creating a distraction too late for it to be use. Anyway we can see in the GNR phone records there is absolutely no distraction call to GNR.
So the delay in GNR arriving was because a group of UK tourist professionals did not dial 112.
If someone had dialled 112 at say 2210, GNR would have been there at 2215.
-
Yep if only someone in PDL had called GNR within the first haf hour, the call re Maddie would have been before the 2229 call re Odiaxere, and the GNR patrol would have come direct from Lagos.
The delay in GNR arriving was entirely due to no-one calling them until 2242.
so this statement is incorrect?
Processos Vol III
Pages 796 – 797
Date: 2007/05/09
Witness Statement
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn’t work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception Vítor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
Reads, signs, ratifies.
-
Yes that is a critical fail of the distraction theory - the so-called abduction gang would be creating a distraction too late for it to be use. Anyway we can see in the GNR phone records there is absolutely no distraction call to GNR.
So the delay in GNR arriving was because a group of UK tourist professionals did not dial 112.
If someone had dialled 112 at say 2210, GNR would have been there at 2215.
Isn't the real issue the fact that there only seem to have been 2 GNR personnel on duty that night to deal with whatever local crimes occurred?
I don't believe that the Odiaxere call was a hoax, but the timing was unfortunate.
However, a clued-up burglar or potential abductor would have worked out that 3rd May was probably the best night that week to commit a crime, especially if they had been tipped off about the staffing situation. A tourist who had been in Luz for only 6 days probably wouldn't know it was the best night to dispose of their dead child's body.
-
I don't know if this issue has been raised before, but has the possibility ever been discussed of the abductor wearing a body wire, rather than using a mobile phone?
-
Yep if only someone in PDL had called GNR within the first haf hour, the call re Maddie would have been before the 2229 call re Odiaxere, and the GNR patrol would have come direct from Lagos.
The delay in GNR arriving was entirely due to no-one calling them until 2242.
Yep, if it is fact that reception didn't call the GNR until 22.42 the reception staff let Madeleine and the Mccanns down badly.
Maybe he had a queue waiting to check in? ... but he got their priorities badly wrong.
I am angry that the receptionist put the call on back burner but I do feel sorry for him. One mistake and what a weight he must be carrying on his shoulders now.
The Golden hour was missed. How sad for Madeleine and the whole family.
-
Yep, if it is fact that reception didn't call the GNR until 22.42 the reception staff let Madeleine and the Mccanns down badly.
Maybe he had a queue waiting to check in? ... but he got their priorities badly wrong.
I am angry that the receptionist put the call on back burner but I do feel sorry for him. One mistake and what a weight he must be carrying on his shoulders now.
The Golden hour was missed. How sad for Madeleine and the whole family.
Nothing to do with the staff.
Madeleine's parents let her and her siblings down badly, by leaving them alone, whilst out boozing and eating.
-
I saw it altho I only skim read. Others must have read it more closely.
-
I wonder if anyone checked on the details of the incident at Odiaxere. Could this have been a red herring to occupy The GNR?
Sure.
GNR were so distracted that they failed to report that McCann were not in the apartment. They were going around OC like headless chicken & finally took their unconscious babies to another apartment - how convenient! Mccann compromised what they considered the "crime scene" by inviting their friends and their cat in it. They did all they could to obfuscate any possible crime investigation & yet they are treated by UK Media, nowadays, as poor innocent parents!
-
In fact there's a lot of similarities between how UK behaves towards the McCann (poor miserable twards enhanced by money holders like Kennedy & Branson) and the poor Palestinians. Ignore the feeble and side up with the strong.
Shame on you UK.
-
@Anna
In the Portugal Telecom phone records you can read in the files:
Helder's first call to GNR is at 2242 IIRC,
his second call to GNR is at about 2251 IIRC,
and his following call to Vitor Santos mobile is also there with an accurate time.
There are other ways to confirm this sequence of calls did occur, and at the times stated by Portugal Telecom records - for example there is a call from JH mobile to OC reception which is IIRC in between Helders two calls to GNR, and a call from SB mobile to GNR which is after Helder's 2 calls to GNR but just before GNR arrive at reception.
The Portugal Telecom times are recorded automatically by computer and are almost certainly correct.
Therefore it is likely that the times printed in Helder statement may have been mis-transcribed.
-
Sure.
GNR were so distracted that they failed to report that McCann were not in the apartment. They were going around OC like headless chicken & finally took their unconscious babies to another apartment - how convenient! Mccann compromised what they considered the "crime scene" by inviting their friends and their cat in it. They did all they could to obfuscate any possible crime investigation & yet they are treated by UK Media, nowadays, as poor innocent parents!
GNR were undistracted enough to report that the father was at reception when GNR arrived at reception. and the mother was at apartment when GNR arrived at apartment with the father a few minutes later.
-
GNR were undistracted enough to report that the father was at reception when GNR arrived at reception. and the mother was at apartment when GNR arrived at apartment with the father a few minutes later.
Your research never ceases to amaze me. You have thrown a light on many things.
-
Here is the source for the calls by reception
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
22:41 receptionist calls GNR
22:52 receptionist calls GNR
22:59 receptionist calls head of reception
-
Here is the source for the calls by reception
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
22:41 receptionist calls GNR
22:52 receptionist calls GNR
22:59 receptionist calls head of reception
Thank you Pegasus.
Do you kmow who the call was from at 21.21. Sorry if I missed it, but it would have been around the time that MM was last seen and JT sighted a man with a child. Probably just coincidence though. I doubt that the person/s responsible for her disappearance, would know when it would be discovered and the GNR would be called after the act, but it would ensure a safe getaway.
my laptop died yesterday and this old one, is about to do the same, so I will have to get something sorted now
-
Thank you Pegasus.
Do you kmow who the call was from at 21.21. Sorry if I missed it, but it would have been around the time that MM was last seen and JT sighted a man with a child. Probably just coincidence though. I doubt that the person/s responsible for her disappearance, would know when it would be discovered and the GNR would be called after the act, but it would ensure a safe getaway.
my laptop died yesterday and this old one, is about to do the same, so I will have to get something sorted now
pegasus’s analysis of the finer detail and his explanation of same is particularly welcome as far as I am concerned. Such things as ‘pings’ etc are not my forte, so I echo your thanks to him.
-
A security company (SDP) phoned the GNR station in Lagos at 2229 - it's in the files.
That I think will be the call alerting the GNR to the suspected theft in Odiaxere area.
It is 6.3km (8 minutes) drive from Lagos GNR station to Odiaxere.
So that places the GNR patrol arriving at the suspected theft at Odiaxere at about 2237.
Which fits perfectly with the GNR patrol being in Odiaxere when OC reception calls GNR.
Excellent research yet again Pegasus, I only wish I had the time to follow up more of these leads.
The incident in Oxiádere which the GNR patrol attended could very well have been created as a distraction coming just minutes after the search began for Madeleine. It would be interesting to find out a bit more about this incident in Odiáxere such as was it an automated alarm call to police or did someone call it in after finding evidence of an attempted break-in.
Someone could have created the situation in Odiáxere on their way from Luz or an accomplice alerted by phone could have done it, there are so many possibilities. To simply put it down to a coincidence and just right it off as Amaral seems to have done isn't logical.
I have yet to read the entire thread so apologies if this has already been covered.
-
A security company (SDP) phoned the GNR station in Lagos at 2229 - it's in the files.
That I think will be the call alerting the GNR to the suspected theft in Odiaxere area.
It is 6.3km (8 minutes) drive from Lagos GNR station to Odiaxere.
So that places the GNR patrol arriving at the suspected theft at Odiaxere at about 2237.
Which fits perfectly with the GNR patrol being in Odiaxere when OC reception calls GNR.
I remember noticing that call, but that was years ago and had forgotten about it. I had wondered at the time if the security company had an employee at the OC. I don't think I ever got to the bottom of whether OC employed a security company at the time or not.
-
Without knowing the exact details of what occurred in Odiáxere it is difficult to come to any firm conclusion but to exclude it on the basis of fantasy is illogical. The chances of these two events occurring concurrently if by accident must be small. The fact that one occurred in Odiáxere is itself interesting given its geographical location.
The documented attempted robbery in Odiáxere could have been set up in such a manner so that it was only noticed after a certain time had lapsed. Examples include cutting a security fence prior to the night watchman doing his rounds or smashing a car window knowing that someone would see it and report it sooner or later. The possibilities are endless. Someone could have telephoned the security Company and reported a fake break-in for that matter and done so at the optimum time to put most pressure on the already stretched GNR. I surprised there are no statements about this in the files.
-
Without knowing the exact details of what occurred in Odiáxere it is difficult to come to any firm conclusion but to exclude it on the basis of fantasy is illogical. The chances of these two events occurring concurrently if by accident must be small. The fact that one occurred in Odiáxere is itself interesting given its geographical location.
The documented attempted robbery in Odiáxere could have been set up in such a manner so that it was only noticed after a certain time had lapsed. Examples include cutting a security fence prior to the night watchman doing his rounds or smashing a car window knowing that someone would see it and report it sooner or later. The possibilities are endless. Someone could have telephoned the security Company and reported a fake break-in for that matter and done so at the optimum time to put most pressure on the already stretched GNR. I surprised there are no statements about this in the files.
I suppose a distraction could have been organised, but would it be that unusual to have another incident within the evening patrol radius?
The PJ and the GNR don't seem to have close contact unless there is a specific request. If some of the PJ statements in the McCann case were written up on a typewriter, I doubt that the local GNR had anything resembling a database at the time that could be easily consulted via filtered criteria.
-
Like most things in this case there just isn't enough proof available to consider one possibility over any other. Child abduction is a high risk endeavour at the best of times, the would-be abductor would have been keen to keep the police away from Luz for as long as they needed to accomplish their high risk plan and get clean away. The last thing they needed was to be confronted by a GNR checkpoint on the edge of town as they made their escape. A distraction for an extremely thin on the ground GNR was a distinct possibility and a sensible precaution imo.
-
Like most things in this case there just isn't enough proof available to consider one possibility over any other. Child abduction is a high risk endeavour at the best of times, the would-be abductor would have been keen to keep the police away from Luz for as long as they needed to accomplish their high risk plan and get clean away. The last thing they needed was to be confronted by a GNR checkpoint on the edge of town as they made their escape. A distraction for an extremely thin on the ground GNR was a distinct possibility and a sensible precaution imo.
Yet the abductor was happy to hang around in the apartment and risk getting caught for roughly an hour & then make off on foot past the Smiths, having changed Madeleine's pyjamas.
-
Yet the abductor was happy to hang around in the apartment and risk getting caught for roughly an hour & then make off on foot past the Smiths, having changed Madeleine's pyjamas.
An hour?
Common sense should tell you the abductor would have been in and out in jig time.
-
An hour?
Common sense should tell you the abductor would have been in and out in jig time.
Common sense tells me there was no abductor.
But then, I'm just barking mad aren't I.
-
Common sense tells me there was no abductor.
But then, I'm just barking mad aren't I.
according to SY you are
-
according to SY you are
Have you spoken to them recently?
-
truly barking...your own words not mine
No, I said barking mad, not, truly barking, those were your words.
-
No, I said barking mad, not, truly barking, those were your words.
sorry you are truly barking mad...your words not mine
-
@Pegusas. Ok I got it. 21.21 and 22.55 are from SB to reception.
I have to keep turning this machine off as it is overheating madly and lost all my notes on the one that just died 8(8-))
-
@Pegusas. Ok I got it. 21.21 and 22.55 are from SB to reception.
I have to keep turning this machine off as it is overheating madly and lost all my notes on the one that just died 8(8-))
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
IMO 21:21 and 22:59 are calls are from receptionist Sr Luis using the landline at main reception to call the mobile of his boss Sr Santos.
-
Here's a summary of only those phone comms which are specifically relevant to reporting the incident to the GNR, in this order:
1. JH phones HL
2. HL phones the GNR at 22:41
3. JH phones HL
4. HL phones the GNR at 22:52
5. HL phones VS at 22:59
6. Some other person phones the GNR
7. SB phones the GNR
8. (The GNR arrive at reception)
I need to add the txt comms btween RO and MO, and the voice comms btwn KM and GM.
As you can see, it is JH (not GM or MO) who deserves the credit for insisting that the incident must be reported to the GNR.
-
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
IMO 21:21 and 22:59 are calls are from receptionist Sr Luis using the landline at main reception to call the mobile of his boss Sr Santos.
thank you so much . It appears that V santos statement is out by about an hour.....and the receptionist also phoned him at 21.21 which isnt mentioned. . maybe this is why there was a conflict in the times.
...
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
-
Here's a summary of only those phone comms which are specifically relevant to reporting the incident to the GNR, in this order:
1. JH phones HL
2. HL phones the GNR at 22:41
3. JH phones HL
4. HL phones the GNR at 22:52
5. HL phones VS at 22:59
6. Some other person phones the GNR
7. SB phones the GNR
8. (The GNR arrive at reception)
I need to add the txt comms btween RO and MO, and the voice comms btwn KM and GM.
As you can see, it is JH (not GM or MO) who deserves the credit for insisting that the incident must be reported to the GNR.
Looks like the reception ignored Matt and Gerrys requests and only phoned the Police when given the go ahead by John Hill, the boss.
Perhaps it was OC policy to never phone the Police unless it had gone through very senior personnel first?
Better that guests do not see anything amiss with Police around ? .... if possible ?
-
PERHAPS, PERHAPS, PERHAPS ?
The direction this thread has taken is to grasp onto anything to try and give the appearance the GNR were distracted on the night, and the 'abductors' who have yet to be proved to have existed, managed to arrange an abduction to coincide with this.
Give me a break.
-
PERHAPS, PERHAPS, PERHAPS ?
The direction this thread has taken is to grasp onto anything to try and give the appearance the GNR were distracted on the night, and the 'abductors' who have yet to be proved to have existed, managed to arrange an abduction to coincide with this.
Give me a break.
Good morning Stephen
Who are you shouting at ?
BYW, Just one "perhaps" on the whole page until your three "perhapses"!
What if we are thinking that it is a possibility that the abductors distracted the Police? And why shouldn't we muse over it? John, ex police, seems to think that there could be a possibility too, so it seems it must have happened in N Ireland at times. And to many of us, we see a well planned operation with the watchers reported beforehand.
I can understand that someone who has held deeply entrenched views may be feeling very down as their ideas become overwhelmed by facts that increasing point to an abduction.
But if it is getting to you, be my guest, take a break ?{)(** 8((()*/
-
Good morning Stephen
Who are you shouting at ?
BYW, Just one "perhaps" on the whole page until your three "perhapses"!
What if we are thinking that it is a possibility that the abductors distracted the Police? And why shouldn't we muse over it? John, ex police, seems to think that there could be a possibility too, so it seems it must have happened in N Ireland at times. And to many of us, we see a well planned operation with the watchers reported beforehand.
I can understand that someone who has held deeply entrenched views may be feeling very down as their ideas become overwhelmed by facts that increasing point to an abduction.
But if it is getting to you, be my guest, take a break ?{)(** 8((()*/
A well planned operation involving distracting border guards, opening windows, drugging Maddie,changing her pyjamas & then making off on foot.
On one reading of the evidence Madeleines disappearence has all the hallmarks of a preplanned abduction (by a Portuguese paedophile gangster who could be mistaken for her father, wore a pair of trousers like he had & had a pyjama changing fetish.)
-
Good morning Stephen
Who are you shouting at ?
BYW, Just one "perhaps" on the whole page until your three "perhapses"!
What if we are thinking that it is a possibility that the abductors distracted the Police? And why shouldn't we muse over it? John, ex police, seems to think that there could be a possibility too, so it seems it must have happened in N Ireland at times. And to many of us, we see a well planned operation with the watchers reported beforehand.
I can understand that someone who has held deeply entrenched views may be feeling very down as their ideas become overwhelmed by facts that increasing point to an abduction.
But if it is getting to you, be my guest, take a break ?{)(** 8((()*/
I know you are very fond of fantasies, but where is the evidence of abduction ?
As to taking a break sadie, I can give you some useful suggestions as to where you could go. 8)--)) @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
-
A well planned operation invoving distracting border guards, opening windows, drugging Maddie,changing her pyjamas & then making off on foot.
Unfortunately the guards weren't alerted that there was a missing child until the next day.
-
I know you are very fond of fantasies, but where is the evidence of abduction ?
As to taking a break sadie, I can give you some useful suggestions as to where you could go. 8)--)) @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Ask SY and the Portuguese police Stephen.
-
Unfortunately the guards weren't alerted that there was a missing child until the next day.
Should have sealed all the borders shouldn't they. Quick, to the helicopters!
-
PERHAPS, PERHAPS, PERHAPS ?
The direction this thread has taken is to grasp onto anything to try and give the appearance the GNR were distracted on the night, and the 'abductors' who have yet to be proved to have existed, managed to arrange an abduction to coincide with this.
Give me a break.
The fact remains that it was off season when Madeleine disappeared so I imagine that the GNR presence would reflect that and would be common knowledge.
A common time for burglars to strike is immediately before departure when victims will have the added trouble of contacting the police while making preparation for departure and there will be difficulty in following the complaint up from abroad.
Therefore although not definitive, I would suggest the 4th would have been more likely for an ‘ordinary’ burglary.
The GNR anniversary celebrations would have been well publicised and it would not have been rocket science for someone intent on abduction to arrange a diversion such as the call out to Odiaxere.
Only those with a closed mind will ignore the possibility; which makes it extraordinary that it was something which doesn’t seem to have crossed the thinking of the investigation, which does not seem to ever have stood back and looked at the bigger picture.
-
The fact remains that it was off season when Madeleine disappeared so I imagine that the GNR presence would reflect that and would be common knowledge.
A common time for burglars to strike is immediately before departure when victims will have the added trouble of contacting the police while making preparation for departure and there will be difficulty in following the complaint up from abroad.
Therefore although not definitive, I would suggest the 4th would have been more likely for an ‘ordinary’ burglary.
The GNR anniversary celebrations would have been well publicised and it would not have been rocket science for someone intent on abduction to arrange a diversion such as the call out to Odiaxere.
Only those with a closed mind will ignore the possibility; which makes it extraordinary that it was something which doesn’t seem to have crossed the thinking of the investigation, which does not seem to ever have stood back and looked at the bigger picture.
I believe the abductors had advanced knowledge, somehow, that neither Kate or Gerry would bother to phone the police immediately, or at all for that matter.
-
Should have sealed all the borders shouldn't they. Quick, to the helicopters!
Well you would think after an extensive search of the area and Madeleine wasn't found, they would have wondered if maybe she had been abducted and taken over the border?
Border guards should have been notified just in case don't you think?
What happened was, the police left, they didn't come back until late next day.
-
Well you would think after an extensive search of the area and Madeleine wasn't found, they would have wondered if maybe she had been abducted and taken over the border?
Border guards should have been notified just in case don't you think?
What happened was, the police left, they didn't come back until late next day.
Of course Kate knew she had been abducted, & Gerry knew it was paedos wot dunnit, yet neither of them bothered to pick up the phone & call the police.
But lets just ignore that bit shall we.
-
Of course Kate knew she had been abducted, & Gerry knew it was paedos wot dunnit, yet neither of them bothered to pick up the phone & call the police.
But lets just ignore that bit shall we.
What are you talking about?
-
I believe the abductors had advanced knowledge, somehow, that neither Kate or Gerry would bother to phone the police immediately, or at all for that matter.
Maybe they had advanced knowledge of how inexperienced the authorities were in child abduction by stranger cases and how the investigation would be botched.
-
Maybe they had advanced knowledge of how inexperienced the authorities were in child abduction by stranger cases and how the investigation would be botched.
Strange isn't it, that this Paedophile gang operating in PDL, hadn't abducted any children from there prior to Madeleines disappearence, during or after for that matter either.
-
Ask SY and the Portuguese police Stephen.
The Portuguese believe this so called 'investigation' a waste of time and money, and only agreed to it in the first place as a matter of political expediency.
As to SY, what have they found of any substance whatsoever ?
Remember the BBC reported recently the case was back to square one.
-
The Portuguese believe this so called 'investigation' a waste of time and money, and only agreed to it in the first place as a matter of political expediency.
As to SY, what have they found of any substance whatsoever ?
Remember the BBC reported recently the case was back to square one.
your post is total garbage
-
your post is total garbage
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
-
The Portuguese believe this so called 'investigation' a waste of time and money, and only agreed to it in the first place as a matter of political expediency.
As to SY, what have they found of any substance whatsoever ?
Remember the BBC reported recently the case was back to square one.
You are accusing the Portuguese of a very strange attitude in relation to a child who has vanished while on holiday in Portugal.
You have done so - yet again - without providing an official source for your pronouncement.
Tabloid gossip doesn't cut it.
-
You are accusing the Portuguese of a very strange attitude in relation to a child who has vanished while on holiday in Portugal.
You have done so - yet again - without providing an official source for your pronouncement.
Tabloid gossip doesn't cut it.
Your post only reveals the true desperation of the mccann supporter.
Haven't used got it yet.
The Portuguese only reopened the investigation because of political pressure.
They know the SY 'investigation' is going nowhere.
One good thing, is you said vanished, not 'abducted'.
So progress has been made.
-
Of course Kate knew she had been abducted, & Gerry knew it was paedos wot dunnit, yet neither of them bothered to pick up the phone & call the police.
But lets just ignore that bit shall we.
in his statement Gerry says the authorities were alerted immediately...you want to ignore that bit too
-
Your post only reveals the true desperation of the mccann supporter.
Haven't used got it yet.
The Portuguese only reopened the investigation because of political pressure.
They know the SY 'investigation' is going nowhere.
One good thing, is you said vanished, not 'abducted'.
So progress has been made.
you are absolutely right...so the pj have lied too
-
you are absolutely right...so the pj have lied too
%£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
-
Your post only reveals the true desperation of the mccann supporter.
Haven't used got it yet.
The Portuguese only reopened the investigation because of political pressure.
They know the SY 'investigation' is going nowhere.
One good thing, is you said vanished, not 'abducted'.
So progress has been made.
What a shallow post; re-opening Madeleine McCann’s case was a sovereign decision taken by the Portuguese and why you object so much to the renewed hope for a missing little girl’s case to be resolved must remain a matter for your own conscience.
However yet again you have made statements without any corroboration; in my own case you imply that my use of “vanished” as opposed to “abducted” is misleading as you know perfectly well I believe Madeleine was “abducted” “kidnapped” “snatched” “stolen” “missing” but most certainly taken by a stranger.
However I am glad that my use of a particular word is pleasing to you, just don’t attempt to make it say something it is not.
Secondly in relation to the new PJ investigation you say “political pressure” again without corroboration.
In democracies it is absurd to suppose the police act in isolation of politicians, but I can give you a cite that at least one Portuguese politicians had no idea what the PJ were doing re Madeleine’s case.
Your turn … give me a source to support your statement.
- Snipped from BBC PANORAMA -
RICHARD BILTON: We understand that in the Algarve there has been some low level animosity at the arrival of British officers. Operation Grange has no jurisdiction in Portugal and only the Portuguese can re-open the case so much of the British work over the last year has been spent reassuring their colleagues here that its a joint effort. But just last month the idea that the Portuguese themselves would have a case review was unheard of.
SANDRA FELGUEIRAS: Madeleine McCann case now in Portugal is a file that is closed. Its an old story, a closed story. We don’t have any news about it. The last information I got this morning from our Public Prosecutor was that even knowing that you in UK are trying to solve the case again with Scotland Yard, with the Scotland Yard as an investigatiion, they are telling here in Portugal that there’s no investigation, that they are not going to re-open the case.
RB: Is there a review of the case here in Portugal?
CARLOS ANJOS: (translated) No, no I don’t think so. I think its too delicate to roll. It calls into question the reputation of the police and I don’t thing the Chief of Police would risk it.
RB: It was only while we were in Portugal that things began to change. We contacted a well-known politician here, Ana Maria Gomes, to get her to ask questions.
ANA MARIA GOMES: According to the information I got the Portuguese Police is also conducting a review.
RB: Who told you there is a Portuguese review then?
ANA MARIA GOMES: I called the Director of the National Criminal Police. His deputy told me that. Its a review of the procedures that were followed in the investigation.
RB: Why does nobody here in Portugal know about this review?
ANA MARIA GOMES: Well, I don’t know. Public opinion here in Portugal now is so upset and concerned with the economic crisis and its job destruction and so on but this is a very important case, first and foremost to find out what happened to Madeleine and to make sure that the Portuguese justice and political system is properly seen outside of Portugal.
RB: Within a week of our interview the Portuguese Police finally confirmed that a team based in the northern city of Porto, well away from the original investigation, has been reviewing the case for the last year.
UNNAMED PT SPOKESMAN: (translated) A network has been carried out discreetly and it will continue to be carried out discreetly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2012/panorama-maddie.html
-
in his statement Gerry says the authorities were alerted immediately...you want to ignore that bit too
Not by him they weren't.
-
What a shallow post; re-opening Madeleine McCann’s case was a sovereign decision taken by the Portuguese and why you object so much to the renewed hope for a missing little girl’s case to be resolved must remain a matter for your own conscience.
However yet again you have made statements without any corroboration; in my own case you imply that my use of “vanished” as opposed to “abducted” is misleading as you know perfectly well I believe Madeleine was “abducted” “kidnapped” “snatched” “stolen” “missing” but most certainly taken by a stranger.
However I am glad that my use of a particular word is pleasing to you, just don’t attempt to make it say something it is not.
Secondly in relation to the new PJ investigation you say “political pressure” again without corroboration.
In democracies it is absurd to suppose the police act in isolation of politicians, but I can give you a cite that at least one Portuguese politicians had no idea what the PJ were doing re Madeleine’s case.
Your turn … give me a source to support your statement.
- Snipped from BBC PANORAMA -
RICHARD BILTON: We understand that in the Algarve there has been some low level animosity at the arrival of British officers. Operation Grange has no jurisdiction in Portugal and only the Portuguese can re-open the case so much of the British work over the last year has been spent reassuring their colleagues here that its a joint effort. But just last month the idea that the Portuguese themselves would have a case review was unheard of.
SANDRA FELGUEIRAS: Madeleine McCann case now in Portugal is a file that is closed. Its an old story, a closed story. We don’t have any news about it. The last information I got this morning from our Public Prosecutor was that even knowing that you in UK are trying to solve the case again with Scotland Yard, with the Scotland Yard as an investigatiion, they are telling here in Portugal that there’s no investigation, that they are not going to re-open the case.
RB: Is there a review of the case here in Portugal?
CARLOS ANJOS: (translated) No, no I don’t think so. I think its too delicate to roll. It calls into question the reputation of the police and I don’t thing the Chief of Police would risk it.
RB: It was only while we were in Portugal that things began to change. We contacted a well-known politician here, Ana Maria Gomes, to get her to ask questions.
ANA MARIA GOMES: According to the information I got the Portuguese Police is also conducting a review.
RB: Who told you there is a Portuguese review then?
ANA MARIA GOMES: I called the Director of the National Criminal Police. His deputy told me that. Its a review of the procedures that were followed in the investigation.
RB: Why does nobody here in Portugal know about this review?
ANA MARIA GOMES: Well, I don’t know. Public opinion here in Portugal now is so upset and concerned with the economic crisis and its job destruction and so on but this is a very important case, first and foremost to find out what happened to Madeleine and to make sure that the Portuguese justice and political system is properly seen outside of Portugal.
RB: Within a week of our interview the Portuguese Police finally confirmed that a team based in the northern city of Porto, well away from the original investigation, has been reviewing the case for the last year.
UNNAMED PT SPOKESMAN: (translated) A network has been carried out discreetly and it will continue to be carried out discreetly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2012/panorama-maddie.html
You can believe in pink flying elephants as far as I am concerned.
It does not mean an abduction took place.
I have yet to hear a coherent account of the evidence of 'abduction'.
Now as you know, without an 'abduction', there is only one place to go...................
Now let's if you or any other poster can provide clear unadulterated and reinforced evidence to show an abduction took place.
CONVINCE ME. 8)-)))
-
Strange isn't it, that this Paedophile gang operating in PDL, hadn't abducted any children from there prior to Madeleines disappearence, during or after for that matter either.
Hrrumph
Now it might not have been the same gang, but just over 4 months before Madeleine was taken, blond, 3 year old, pretty Carolina Santos was walked off by a stranger.
... fortunately Carolinas parents noticed her missing and looked out to see her being walked off, hand in hand with a man .... and they were some distance away before they saw it. THey called her back. He walked around the corner out of sight.... and vanished.
It happened about 18 miles away from PdL
That was an abduction, short lived tho it was. And under 5 months before Madeleines.
2. And despite the Law having decided otherwise, Joana Cipriano was almost certainly another abduction.
Less than 3 years before Madeleine went and ONLY 7 miles away, Joana vanished.
Joana ... a pretty and vivacious 7 year old, again fair haired, vanished whilst on an errand for her Mum in the village of Figuiera. It was dark by the time she was walking home from a delicatessen/ cake shop just 350 yards from home (short cut route down the bank.)
So quite probably two abductions and certainly one in under 3 years before Madeleine vanished. Both within about 18 miles of PdL.
What I keep thinking is that:
The abduction 4 months before of Carolina failed, so was Madeleine taken as a substitute, to fulfil an evil need of a certain man ... and possibly of the group behind him?
Dunno, but it isn't that unlikely imo.
-
Hrrumph
Now it might not have been the same gang, but just over 4 months before Madeleine was taken, blond, 3 year old, pretty Carolina Santos was walked off by a stranger.
... fortunately Carolinas parents noticed her missing and looked out to see her being walked off, hand in hand with a man .... and they were some distance away before they saw it. THey called her back. He walked around the corner out of sight.... and vanished.
It happened about 18 miles away from PdL
That was an abduction, short lived tho it was. And under 5 months before Madeleines.
2. And despite the Law having decided otherwise, Joana Cipriano was almost certainly another abduction.
Less than 3 years before Madeleine went and ONLY 7 miles away, Joana vanished.
Joana ... a pretty and vivacious 7 year old, again fair haired, vanished whilst on an errand for her Mum in the village of Figuiera. It was dark by the time she was walking home from a delicatessen/ cake shop just 350 yards from home (short cut route down the bank.)
So quite probably two abductiona and certainly one in under 3 years before Madeleine vanished. Both within about 18 miles of PdL.
What I keep thinking is that:
The abduction 4 months before of Carolina failed, so was Madeleine taken as a substitute, to fulfil an evil need of a certain man ... and possibly of the group behind him?
Dunno, but it isn't that unlikely imo.
Joana was almost certainly another abduction?
Why almost certainly, what might have happened to the fair haired Joana, other than abduction then sadie?
-
You can believe in pink flying elephants as far as I am concerned.
It does not mean an abduction took place.
I have yet to hear a coherent account of the evidence of 'abduction'.
Now as you know, without an 'abduction', there is only one place to go...................
Now let's if you or any other poster can provide clear unadulterated and reinforced evidence to show an abduction took place.
CONVINCE ME. 8)-)))
With respect, Stephen, you are not important enough to convince; the people who really matter in the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance are convinced enough to be pulling out all the stops in pursuit of the perpetrator/s; and that satisfies me perfectly.
In case you missed it ... neither the Met or the PJ consider Madeleine's parents or their friends to be persons of interest; wonder what they know that you don't - bet it is a substantial amount.
-
Your post only reveals the true desperation of the mccann supporter.
Haven't used got it yet.
The Portuguese only reopened the investigation because of political pressure.
They know the SY 'investigation' is going nowhere.
One good thing, is you said vanished, not 'abducted'.
So progress has been made.
Please give proof that the Portuguese only reopened the investigation because of political pressure Stephen.
-
Please give proof that the Portuguese only reopened the investigation because of political pressure Stephen.
I presume you are being serious ?
-
I presume you are being serious ?
Yes I am being serious, you are stating it as fact.
-
Yes I am being serious, you are stating it as fact.
As you know, the Portuguese initially refused to reopen the case.
Pressure was applied.
-
As you know, the Portuguese initially refused to reopen the case.
Pressure was applied.
Then you need to tell us by whom and when.
Corroboration of your statements would be welcomed.
-
With respect, Stephen, you are not important enough to convince; the people who really matter in the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance are convinced enough to be pulling out all the stops in pursuit of the perpetrator/s; and that satisfies me perfectly.
In case you missed it ... neither the Met or the PJ consider Madeleine's parents or their friends to be persons of interest; wonder what they know that you don't - bet it is a substantial amount.
i.e. There is none and you know it.
Everything else is waffle.
Pulling out all the stops...............
The investigation has revealed nothing.
There is no trace of Madeleine.
You can believe in fantasies of Madeleine being found with a really nice family, or whichever other fantasy of a return you may happen to believe in.
-
Strange isn't it, that this Paedophile gang operating in PDL, hadn't abducted any children from there prior to Madeleines disappearence, during or after for that matter either.
Ar! but wot yo fail to oonderstand is in the context of Portugal this really means that the place is bloody heavin' with paedophoil gangs but the whole bloody judiciary, population and tourists of varying nationalities are all in a stonkin great conspiracy to oosh it all oop loik.
-
Ar! but wot yo fail to oonderstand is in the context of Portugal this really means that the place is bloody heavin' with paedophoil gangs but the whole bloody judiciary, population and tourists of varying nationalities are all in a stonkin great conspiracy to oosh it all oop loik.
I think than..several prime ministers...SY...and a whole host of others conspiring to protect the mccanns because of a shortage of NHS doctors
-
Ar! but wot yo fail to oonderstand is in the context of Portugal this really means that the place is bloody heavin' with paedophoil gangs but the whole bloody judiciary, population and tourists of varying nationalities are all in a stonkin great conspiracy to oosh it all oop loik.
Oh, Alice, your local vernacular is not very convincing,. I should stick to your middle class educated English if I were you
Psst: Hope you dont mind Goodie trying to help you 8**8:/:
-
i.e. There is none and you know it.
Everything else is waffle.
Pulling out all the stops...............
The investigation has revealed nothing.
There is no trace of Madeleine.
You can believe in fantasies of Madeleine being found with a really nice family, or whichever other fantasy of a return you may happen to believe in.
I believe it is right and proper to address past failures and try to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann. I believe that people who feel free to enter a child's bedroom for illicit purposes should be apprehended and brought to justice.
If there is no trace of a missing person ... is it your logic that we shouldn't bother looking, particularly if her surname is McCann?
The point being that if there was a trace, the person probably would not be missing and would not require to be looked for.
Think how ecstatic you would be if Madeleine's parents were under investigation right now and not the evil s..m who actually stole her. Try a little bit of transference Stephen and direct what you feel for Madeleine’s parents to that individual/s.
-
Oh, Alice, your local vernacular is not very convincing,. I should stick to your middle class educated English if I were you
Psst: Hope you dont mind Goodie trying to help you 8**8:/:
Ar thanks Goodie yo bin a little boster.
My mam having been a Yam Yam (or Yo Yo if thee bin from Shropshire) so oi am at the very least a Yam and conversant with the intricacies of the Yam Yam dialect.
-
Ar thanks Goodie yo bin a little boster.
My mam having been a Yam Yam (or Yo Yo if thee bin from Shropshire) so oi am at the very least a Yam and conversant with the intricacies of the Yam Yam dialect.
so what is Z for in the yam yam alphabet...bet you cant answer it without google
-
Ar thanks Goodie yo bin a little boster.
My mam having been a Yam Yam (or Yo Yo if thee bin from Shropshire) so oi am at the very least a Yam and conversant with the intricacies of the Yam Yam dialect.
yam yams don't come from shropshire anymore than cockneys come from essex
-
I believe it is right and proper to address past failures and try to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann. I believe that people who feel free to enter a child's bedroom for illicit purposes should be apprehended and brought to justice.
If there is no trace of a missing person ... is it your logic that we shouldn't bother looking, particularly if her surname is McCann?
The point being that if there was a trace, the person probably would not be missing and would not require to be looked for.
Think how ecstatic you would be if Madeleine's parents were under investigation right now and not the evil s..m who actually stole her. Try a little bit of transference Stephen and direct what you feel for Madeleine’s parents to that individual/s.
Can you tell me Brietta in logical terms why you think there was an abductor when all that has come to the surface is the mantra of hyperbole to describe the existence of a person or persons, which clearly SY may be digging for in desperation to justify the money spent. What I have no time for is when the money is spent on just one case and no one else gets a look in.
As to the McCann's, I and others hold them responsible for what happened in their gross negligence of three children.
-
Looks like the reception ignored Matt and Gerrys requests and only phoned the Police when given the go ahead by John Hill, the boss.
Perhaps it was OC policy to never phone the Police unless it had gone through very senior personnel first?
Better that guests do not see anything amiss with Police around ? .... if possible ?
I know that some owners/admin did not like the poolice called without there authority, but that was a long time ago. I will try and find what time it was that JH phoned reception, the first time. However someone would have to have phoned him from somewhere, for him to know about the disappearance.
-
I know that some owners/admin did not like the poolice called without there authority, but that was a long time ago. I will try and find what time it was that JH phoned reception, the first time. However someone would have to have phoned him from somewhere, for him to know about the disappearance.
John Hill (extract).
With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found. Upon arriving at the scene he saw about 100 people, employees, guests and residents searching the grounds, the beach and adjoining areas calling out the child's name.
Initially the deponent thought that the child had got lost or disorientated, but as the searches did not produce any results he became increasingly worried.
-
The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted, and fifteen minutes later went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken. The deponent thinks that the GNR arrived at the scene at about 22.45, however in a conversation several weeks later, he heard someone say, he doesn't remember whom, that they had arrived at about 23.30, but as he was so busy he declared that he had no notion of the passage of time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
-
John Hill (extract).
With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found. Upon arriving at the scene he saw about 100 people, employees, guests and residents searching the grounds, the beach and adjoining areas calling out the child's name.
Initially the deponent thought that the child had got lost or disorientated, but as the searches did not produce any results he became increasingly worried.
-
The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted, and fifteen minutes later went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken. The deponent thinks that the GNR arrived at the scene at about 22.45, however in a conversation several weeks later, he heard someone say, he doesn't remember whom, that they had arrived at about 23.30, but as he was so busy he declared that he had no notion of the passage of time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
thank you Carana. I just found it, but that was, I believe a mobile to mobile and I was looking for his call to reception.
So he was aware of the missing child at around 22.28
-
I know that some owners/admin did not like the poolice called without there authority, but that was a long time ago. I will try and find what time it was that JH phoned reception, the first time. However someone would have to have phoned him from somewhere, for him to know about the disappearance.
Here is the flow which led eventually after 42 minutes to the GNR being phoned
A mum on way to collect child from creche passes a man searching and calling something like "Maddie"
About 2205 or 2215 this mum arrives at creche and tells this to the 3 creche staff AT and JW and CP
About 2220 AT tells LJ
About 2228 LJ phones JH
2238 JH phones HL
2241 HL phones the GNR
2251 JH phones HL
2252 HL phones the GNR
-
Here is the flow which led eventually after 42 minutes to the GNR being phoned
A mum on way to collect child from creche passes a man searching and calling something like "Maddie"
About 2205 or 2215 this mum arrives at creche and tells this to the 3 creche staff AT and JW and CP
About 2220 AT tells LJ
About 2228 LJ phones JH
2238 JH phones HL
2241 HL phones the GNR
2251 JH phones HL
2252 HL phones the GNR
Thank you......................again
-
Thank you......................again
I just copied from employees' statements, and from
GNR Lagos phone records: page 3159
OC phone records: page 3164
-
I just copied from employees' statements, and from
GNR Lagos phone records: page 3159
OC phone records: page 3164
Why are the calls (listed as Greentrust not Ocean Club) not in chronological order?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3159.jpg
-
People calling each other on the phone, at a time when police were rife in the area, what is the world coming to ?
The PJ and many other people searched extensively for Madeleine,and found no trace of her, so don't pull the 'poor investigation' line.
-
People calling each other on the phone, at a time when police were rife in the area, what is the world coming to ?
The PJ and many other people searched extensively for Madeleine,and found no trace of her, so don't pull the 'poor investigation' line.
Stephen, it is obvious to me you haven't read what SY have written about the phone calls, they were made BEFORE Madeleine was discovered missing.
As I said, all children are equal.
-
Stephen, it is obvious to me you haven't read what SY have written about the phone calls, they were made BEFORE Madeleine was discovered missing.
As I said, all children are equal.
So phone calls were made before.
That does not make them linked to an 'abduction' or 'burglary'.
These people have been questioned with nothing to show.
Try harder.
-
So phone calls were made before.
That does not make them linked to an 'abduction' or 'burglary'.
These people have been questioned with nothing to show.
Muddled statements, what piffle.
Try harder.
What SY say about the phone calls - Madeleine-McCann-suspects-kept-regular-phone-contact
-
What SY say about the phone calls - Madeleine-McCann-suspects-kept-regular-phone-contact
I'm sorry , but you need a little more than that to establish connection to a crime.
People talking to each other on the phone regularly, whatever next ?
Isn't technology wonderful ?
-
I'm sorry , but you need a little more than that to establish connection to a crime.
People talking to each other on the phone regularly, whatever next ?
Isn't technology wonderful ?
If it was Gerry in contact with someone else after Madeleine went missing you would no doubt be saying differently.
Their phone calls tally with the movements of the McCann's, short phone conversations, in my opinion that is worth investigating.
-
If it was Gerry in contact with someone else after Madeleine went missing you would no doubt be saying differently.
Their phone calls tally with the movements of the McCann's, short phone conversations, in my opinion that is worth investigating.
Tut tut.
and how many other people were moving around at the same time in PDL ?
Has that been established ?
After all it was a holiday resort.
-
Tut tut.
and how many other people were moving around at the same time in PDL ?
Has that been established ?
After all it was a holiday resort.
I am sure SY are capable of assessing which phone calls are of interest to them Stephen, they are trained to.
-
I am sure SY are capable of assessing which phone calls are of interest to them Stephen, they are trained to.
We shall see.
Their success rate so far in making any progress does seem rather limited, doesn't it ?