UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2014, 09:21:06 AM
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How good is SY in reality.
In recent history there has been a litany of cases and situations where it's reputation for law enforcement has been caste in to serious light.
Below is a link to the view of Yvonne Ridley, a name some will know.
Last week an anti-terror cop was sent down for 15 months for trying to sell a story to the News of the World. April Cashburn wasn’t some lowly grunt at the bottom of the pile – she was a detective chief inspector involved largely in counter terrorism.
...In fact the Yard’s counterterrorism activities leave much to be desired, as a catalogue of incompetence and flawed intelligence attests. Take, for instance, the shooting of the innocent Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, who was mistaken for a suicide bomber in 2005.
...who can forget the fiasco, a year later, of the Forest Gate raid in which hundreds of officers swooped on an East London street, claiming one of the homes was a base for the manufacture of deadly chemicals? During the raid Mohammed Abdul Kahar was shot at close range inside his own home. As they frantically back-pedalled when not even so much as an asprin was found, police had plenty of words to say about the shooting of an innocent man but “sorry” was not one of them – until officers were ordered to apologise for the botched raid.
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They are technologically very advanced, but if technology fails to provide the answer, then they are probably no better than many other police forces.
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Are there any instances of people in England still behind bars despite it being proved that that the person(s) convicted had first had the sh!t beaten out of them by Scotland Yard Officers?
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Topic: Is SY all it's cracked up to be ?
Let's wait and see. They are being thorough and everything seems to be going smoothly atm
AS Ferryman says
Are there any instances of people in England still behind bars despite it being proved that that the person(s) convicted had first had the sh!t beaten out of them by Scotland Yard Officers?
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So who is better than SY? ...who is doing abetter job? This is a pathetic attempt to undermine SY's support for the mccanns ...can anyone name a better police force...what about the PJ...as regularly featured on amnesty internationals website
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Try this one for Spain.....http://rt.com/news/spanish-police-beat-women-708/
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this one for Germany...
Every year, around 2,000 complaints police brutality in Germany are reported – and the figure could be higher because not every case is reported. But one case is so brutal that it is unforgettable – it involves 23 year old Teresa Z. from Munich. In an image, her whole face is bruised, and her nose and eye socket are broken. She had called the police after a fight with her boyfriend got out of hand. But in the end, the worst blows didn't come from her partner but a police officer - out of self defense, he says. The investigation is ongoing.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587856/I-felt-I-accused-lying-Naomi-Oni-accuses-Scotland-Yard-incompetence-believing-scarred-HERSELF-life-pouring-sulphuric-acid-face.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/whistleblower-speaks-out-after-scotland-yard-says-he-faces-gross-misconduct-charges-over-crime-statistic-comments-9278211.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10939034/Top-level-police-corruption-inquiries-underway-at-Scotland-Yard.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10684318/Corrupt-officers-daughter-worked-at-Scotland-Yard.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537037/Scotland-Yard-corruption-leaked-report-claims-police-bribed-DESTROY-evidence-SLEPT-criminals-intimidated-witnesses.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bent-Coppers-Scotland-against-corruption/dp/0752859021
etc.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587856/I-felt-I-accused-lying-Naomi-Oni-accuses-Scotland-Yard-incompetence-believing-scarred-HERSELF-life-pouring-sulphuric-acid-face.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/whistleblower-speaks-out-after-scotland-yard-says-he-faces-gross-misconduct-charges-over-crime-statistic-comments-9278211.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10939034/Top-level-police-corruption-inquiries-underway-at-Scotland-Yard.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10684318/Corrupt-officers-daughter-worked-at-Scotland-Yard.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537037/Scotland-Yard-corruption-leaked-report-claims-police-bribed-DESTROY-evidence-SLEPT-criminals-intimidated-witnesses.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bent-Coppers-Scotland-against-corruption/dp/0752859021
etc.
You will find a massive list of complaints against every force in every country in the world...simple
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I'll ask again, what measures should we be using when judging how "cracked up" SY is meant to be? I know anecdotally The Met is often cited as one of the very best police forces in the world but how would we go about measuring this? Any ideas people?
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I'll ask again, what measures should we be using when judging how "cracked up" SY is meant to be? I know anecdotally The Met is often cited as one of the very best police forces in the world but how would we go about measuring this? Any ideas people?
It doesn't really matter because if someone undertook a huge study that proved SY was the best Stephen and others wouldn't accept it...it's basically attempt to discredit anyone who supports the McCanns
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Today, the Metropolitan Police Service employs around 31,000 officers together with about 13,000 police staff and 2,600 Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs). The MPS is also being supported by more than 5,100 volunteer police officers in the Metropolitan Special Constabulary (MSC) and its Employer Supported Policing (ESP) programme. The Metropolitan Police Services covers an area of 620 square miles and a population of 7.2 million (Pop of Scotland times 1.5).
It's not surprising that the odd rotten apple is exposed given the size of the organisation but is it too big might be a more appropriate question.
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It doesn't really matter because if someone undertook a huge study that proved SY was the best Stephen and others wouldn't accept it...it's basically attempt to discredit anyone who supports the McCanns
But do they?
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But do they?
I would say they certainly do
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There is ample evidence that the Met is supportive of the McCanns and none whatsoever that they regard them as suspects. However this won't stop some people deluding themselves into believing that the Met are building a case against the McCanns and are doing it in a very cunning, softly, softly catchee monkey kind of a way. Mark my words these same people will be clinging on to this vain hope for the rest of their days, no matter what the outcome of this investigation.
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I suppose that when your leader is supportive of something, it would be a brave minion who would go against him.
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I suppose that when your leader is supportive of something, it would be a brave minion who would go against him.
Who do you believe to be the supportive leader and who the timorous wee minion in this instance?
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It doesn't really matter because if someone undertook a huge study that proved SY was the best Stephen and others wouldn't accept it...it's basically attempt to discredit anyone who supports the McCanns
Spot on: if the Met was investigating the Drs McCann and their friends there are those who would be proclaiming them from the rooftops.
They are still having difficulty coming to terms with the fact that neither the Met nor the PJ are the least bit interested in Madeleine's parents.
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Spot on: if the Met was investigating the Drs McCann and their friends there are those who would be proclaiming them from the rooftops.
They are still having difficulty coming to terms with the fact that neither the Met nor the PJ are the least bit interested in Madeleine's parents.
and that their hero amaral got it all wrong
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You will find a massive list of complaints against every force in every country in the world...simple
i.e. No better or no worse than any other one.
However, mccann supporters put them on a pedestal they don't deserve, due to their vested interest in the 'investigation'.
8((()*/
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Someone made reference to the Jill Dando case and Barry George recently and claimed that this was being used to discredit Op Grange as Redwood is common to both. I would say there is no need to discredit them as they have managed that all on their own. And with Redwood retiring soon who will carry the can then?
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i.e. No better or no worse than any other one.
However, mccann supporters put them on a pedestal they don't deserve, due to their vested interest in the 'investigation'.
8((()*/
I don't think they are perfect but a lot better than some
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i.e. No better or no worse than any other one.
However, mccann supporters put them on a pedestal they don't deserve, due to their vested interest in the 'investigation'.
8((()*/
If the Met are "no worse" than the PJ then presumably you treat both forces with equal respect, and when both forces make it clear that they are investigating individuals other than the McCanns you should be able to deal with that in an adult way, rather than delude yourself into thinking that secretly they are building a case against them. Can you try just for once to be mature enough to accept this?
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If the Met are "no worse" than the PJ then presumably you treat both forces with equal respect, and when both forces make it clear that they are investigating individuals other than the McCanns you should be able to deal with that in an adult way, rather than delude yourself into thinking that secretly they are building a case against them. Can you try just for once to be mature enough to accept this?
Can you also say that the PJ got it wrong the first time with 100% certainty, and if so , what is your evidence for that ?
[edited]
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587856/I-felt-I-accused-lying-Naomi-Oni-accuses-Scotland-Yard-incompetence-believing-scarred-HERSELF-life-pouring-sulphuric-acid-face.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/whistleblower-speaks-out-after-scotland-yard-says-he-faces-gross-misconduct-charges-over-crime-statistic-comments-9278211.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10939034/Top-level-police-corruption-inquiries-underway-at-Scotland-Yard.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10684318/Corrupt-officers-daughter-worked-at-Scotland-Yard.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537037/Scotland-Yard-corruption-leaked-report-claims-police-bribed-DESTROY-evidence-SLEPT-criminals-intimidated-witnesses.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bent-Coppers-Scotland-against-corruption/dp/0752859021
etc.
Naomi Oni's assailant got 12 years ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26680664
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Can you also say that the PJ got it wrong the first time with 100% certainty, and if so , what is your evidence for that ?
The PJ got it wrong the first time, of that I am 100% certain. My evidence for that is that after many months of subjecting the McCanns to the closest scrutiny they found no evidence against them and are now pursuing other avenues of enquiry. Now, it takes someone with a mature and logical mind to accept this as the reality of the situation - I have one, now the questions is - do you?
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Another of those reports seems to relate to something that was 12 years old ...
The 2002 report, produced as part of Operation Tiberius, an investigation into police corruption, named 80 corrupt officers. More than half of them were still serving at the time.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537037/Scotland-Yard-corruption-leaked-report-claims-police-bribed-DESTROY-evidence-SLEPT-criminals-intimidated-witnesses.html#ixzz3BQIKkM00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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The PJ got it wrong the first time, of that I am 100% certain. My evidence for that is that after many months of subjecting the McCanns to the closest scrutiny they found no evidence against them and are now pursuing other avenues of enquiry. Now, it takes someone with a mature and logical mind to accept this as the reality of the situation - I have one, now the questions is - do you?
It wasn't really the closest scrutiny was it, on the night of the 3rd of May/ morning of the 4th for instance, when Kate was out opening a big ol dumpster type bin in the early hours, they weren't being scrutinised then.
[ moderated ]
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Who do you believe to be the supportive leader and who the timorous wee minion in this instance?
Hogan-Howe is the openly supportive leader. I doubt if even a Detective Inspector nearing retirement would openly disagree with the Commissioner.
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Hogan-Howe is the openly supportive leader. I doubt if even a Detective Inspector nearing retirement would openly disagree with the Commissioner.
nearing retirement he can speak his mind...doesn't need promotion now
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Hogan-Howe is the openly supportive leader. I doubt if even a Detective Inspector nearing retirement would openly disagree with the Commissioner.
And why do you suppose Hogan-Howe is supportive of the McCanns - is he "in on it"?
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So for those members of the police force who think that the 'abduction' was made up, what do you say to them ?
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So for those members of the police force who think that the 'abduction' was made up, what do you say to them ?
you will always be a mere bobby on the beat
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you will always be a mere bobby on the beat
Very droll. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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So for those members of the police force who think that the 'abduction' was made up, what do you say to them ?
Aside from Amaral and some of his team members, which officers involved in the investigation(s) think that?
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Aside from Amaral and some of his team members, which officers involved in the investigation(s) think that?
Why don't you ask them ?
and I wasn't just referring to those in Portugal either. 8(0(*
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Are there any instances of people in England still behind bars despite it being proved that that the person(s) convicted had first had the sh!t beaten out of them by Scotland Yard Officers?
Oh come now good sir where has your head been ?
from wikipedia
"The convictions of the Maguire Seven were quashed in 1991. The court held that members of the London Metropolitan Police beat some of the Seven into confessing to the crimes and withheld information that would have cleared them"
Now check out the Birmingham 6, The Guildford 4 and the Maguires to see what the British police are capable of the Met included.
Whilst they do not remain behind bars they were in for a goodly time having been beaten and tortured before having heir convictions declared unsafe.
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Oh come now good sir where has your head been ?
from wikipedia
"The convictions of the Maguire Seven were quashed in 1991. The court held that members of the London Metropolitan Police beat some of the Seven into confessing to the crimes and withheld information that would have cleared them"
Now check out the Birmingham 6, The Guildford 4 and the Maguires to see what the British police are capable of the Met included.
Whilst they do not remain behind bars they were in for a goodly time having been beaten and tortured before having heir convictions declared unsafe.
you don't understand the difference do you...in Portugal convictions are never unsafe...and if you believe that you are a banana
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you don't understand the difference do you...in Portugal convictions are never unsafe...and if you believe that you are a banana
I don't see the point of your post. Please enlighten a poor deluded old lady.
Did the British police beat the defendants in the cases I mentioned or not? Were The Met involved in one case or not?
Ferryman asked for examples I gave them.
But of course it will all be different in the Humpty Dumpty, Topsy Turvy world of McFan lala land.
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you don't understand the difference do you...in Portugal convictions are never unsafe...and if you believe that you are a banana
I think the Hislop quote may go over a few heads.
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I don't see the point of your post. Please enlighten a poor deluded old lady.
Did the British police beat the defendants in the cases I mentioned or not? Were The Met involved in one case or not?
Ferryman asked for examples I gave them.
But of course it will all be different in the Humpty Dumpty, Topsy Turvy world of McFan lala land.
...you are in denial....miscarriages of justice happen in every country..in the Uk we accept this and compensate the victims...in Portugal it is not admitted...Portuguese justice pretends it never makes mistakes..
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Why don't you ask them ?
and I wasn't just referring to those in Portugal either. 8(0(*
I'm aware that there's some woman apparently on the Met force who didn't agree with the expenditure at the time of budget cutbacks.
But my question concerns who - among those who actually have access to all of the files and who are active in the review / investigation teams - is against this investigation?
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I'm aware that there's some woman apparently on the Met force who didn't agree with the expenditure at the time of budget cutbacks.
But my question concerns who - among those who actually have access to all of the files and who are active in the review / investigation teams - is against this investigation?
Since when do turkeys vote for Christmas ?
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I'm aware that there's some woman apparently on the Met force who didn't agree with the expenditure at the time of budget cutbacks.
But my question concerns who - among those who actually have access to all of the files and who are active in the review / investigation teams - is against this investigation?
She was not a serving officer; a politician? on the police board, I believe, for the City of London.
I think it is evident that those working on the case from the Met are convinced of its value; I think it would be possible to make the same observation for the PJ as their review resulted in the recommendation to re-open the case.
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...who can forget the fiasco, a year later, of the Forest Gate raid in which hundreds of officers swooped on an East London street, claiming one of the homes was a base for the manufacture of deadly chemicals? During the raid Mohammed Abdul Kahar was shot at close range inside his own home. As they frantically back-pedalled when not even so much as an asprin was found, police had plenty of words to say about the shooting of an innocent man but “sorry” was not one of them – until officers were ordered to apologise for the botched raid.[/font]
Why does ridley not tell the truth...the police were looking for bomb making materials and acting on specific intelligence...the police did not find any bomb making chemicals but interestingly they did find several hundred pornographic images of children on the arrested mans laptop
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Angelo has posted correctly that Sy are one of the largest police forces in the world and therefore mistakes will be made. Your attempt to show that they are generally incompetent is pathetic and driven by your hatred of the McCanns..
So they found no explosives at forest gate......well done to them for admitting it. A corrupt police force would have planted evidence. The PJ may well have planted cadaverine contaminant in 5a...we know they have a reputation for dishonesty.
Portuguese police found nothing in the search of the cipriano house...didn't stop them getting a conviction
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The truth is that you have tried to discredit SY and failed miserably. That's because they are one of the best police forces in the world...
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Oh come now good sir where has your head been ?
from wikipedia
"The convictions of the Maguire Seven were quashed in 1991. The court held that members of the London Metropolitan Police beat some of the Seven into confessing to the crimes and withheld information that would have cleared them"
Now check out the Birmingham 6, The Guildford 4 and the Maguires to see what the British police are capable of the Met included.
Whilst they do not remain behind bars they were in for a goodly time having been beaten and tortured before having heir convictions declared unsafe.
tellingly both yours and stephens post deal with anti terrorist situations which are hardly the norm. I had first hand knowledge of Birmingham and feeling s were running very high with the number of people killed and maimed. Whilst I don't condone the actions of the police...some of them may have been on duty..as I was at the casualty dept at the general hospital. They would have seen sights that would seriously affect them.
Not only that but lessons were learnt and the serious crime squad was disbanded.
We may be entering another period of terrorists activity and the police have to act...sometimes they will get it wrong...innocent people will be arrested...but the public have to be protected and it is to SY and our own police forces that we will be looking to for protection
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tellingly both yours and stephens post deal with anti terrorist situations which are hardly the norm. I had first hand knowledge of Birmingham and feeling s were running very high with the number of people killed and maimed. Whilst I don't condone the actions of the police...some of them may have been on duty..as I was at the casualty dept at the general hospital. They would have seen sights that would seriously affect them.
Not only that but lessons were learnt and the serious crime squad was disbanded.
We may be entering another period of terrorists activity and the police have to act...sometimes they will get it wrong...innocent people will be arrested...but the public have to be protected and it is to SY and our own police forces that we will be looking to for protection
I have two friends who seperately were in that bombing. Fortunately neither was injured.
Well done for being there to help the injured.
8@??)( 8@??)(
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So is it fair to judge the police on their reaction to terrorists...never mind the police I actually remember innocent irish members of the public being attacked...feelings ran that high...this taken from wiki...
As the bombings were blamed on the IRA, anti-Irish feeling rose in parts of Great Britain. There was a wave of firebombings, bomb threats and attacks on Irish people and Irish-owned businesses. In Birmingham, the Irish Centre was attacked and there was "talk of English workers dropping bricks on the heads of Irish Catholic workmates on building sites and in factories". Because of the anger against Irish people in Birmingham after the bombings, the IRA's Army Council placed the city "strictly off-limits" to IRA active service units.
So the point I am making is that it is unrealistic to judge a police force on its reaction to terrorists...which is what this thread is doing
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There are bad apples in every barrel the problem is when no-one does anything about them; the Met has had its problems and there has been a concerted effort of late in Portugal to curb excesses with officers being prosecuted and some even being jailed for breaking the law.
In this discussion the Met is being called into question for the simple reason it is making as much progress as is possible in Madeleine McCann's case and some people do not approve of that.
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There are bad apples in every barrel the problem is when no-one does anything about them; the Met has had its problems and there has been a concerted effort of late in Portugal to curb excesses with officers being prosecuted and some even being jailed for breaking the law.
In this discussion the Met is being called into question for the simple reason it is making as much progress as is possible in Madeleine McCann's case and some people do not approve of that.
And I wonder why ?
There has to be a reason
There always is
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Let's not forget the fiasco of thee Stephen Lawrence case for example.
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There is no evidence on this thread to show how SY ranks against other police forces.. fact...you claim to understand statistics so you know that is true....on that point it has failed miserably.
By all means post the rate of crime solving in each country...and the level of confessions by suspects...anectdotally I would expect that to be significantly higher in portugal
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Let's not forget the fiasco of thee Stephen Lawrence case for example.
Your posts demonstrate nothing...statistically they are totally flawed
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tellingly both yours and stephens post deal with anti terrorist situations which are hardly the norm. I had first hand knowledge of Birmingham and feeling s were running very high with the number of people killed and maimed. Whilst I don't condone the actions of the police...some of them may have been on duty..as I was at the casualty dept at the general hospital. They would have seen sights that would seriously affect them.
Not only that but lessons were learnt and the serious crime squad was disbanded.
We may be entering another period of terrorists activity and the police have to act...sometimes they will get it wrong...innocent people will be arrested...but the public have to be protected and it is to SY and our own police forces that we will be looking to for protection
The West Midlands mob were disbanded but the Maguires suffered at the hands of The Met.
You are now trying to duck out by saying terrorism is a special case where the norms of legal due process do not count.
I would suggest you read some of Gareth Peirces essays on that score. ( I know you have read them all).
The issue was "have The Met beaten confessions out of people?" Answer "yes" demonstrably so. Either obtaining a confession by beating and torture is acceptable or it isn't. It is fatuous to suggest it operates on a sliding scale. "There I wuz" stories notwithstanding.
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Oh come now good sir where has your head been ?
from wikipedia
"The convictions of the Maguire Seven were quashed in 1991. The court held that members of the London Metropolitan Police beat some of the Seven into confessing to the crimes and withheld information that would have cleared them"
Now check out the Birmingham 6, The Guildford 4 and the Maguires to see what the British police are capable of the Met included.
Whilst they do not remain behind bars they were in for a goodly time having been beaten and tortured before having heir convictions declared unsafe.
There is a major flaw in your argument.....the cases you cited happened 40 years ago...things have changed in the UK..It speaks volumes that you have to go back 40 years to find a case to criticise the uk police
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You are wriggling like a fish on a hook good sir. Why the time limit on truth? You believe it doesn't count because it was 40 years ago?
You then say quite incorrectly I am criticising the police whereas I am merely stating proven facts to show what the British are capable of.
You then say things have changed in the UK. So as you wish to believe events of 40 years ago mysteriously do not count
let us come further forward in time and consider:
The killing by police of an unarmed civilian on public transport because it was believed quite erroneously he was a terrorist The arrest of Muslims, their incarceration and poor treatment in Belmarsh because it looked as though they might be going to do something. It was never proven most were going to.
Every time there is a cock up the standard response from some talking head in officialdom is "lessons have been learned" Oh yes! but only in the same sense as Epaminondas and his Auntie. The cock ups continue.
I would suggest you stop trying to portray the McCann case UK / Portugal like a Hopalong Cassidy movie with black hats and white hats. You may then be taken more seriously.
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You are wriggling like a fish on a hook good sir. Why the time limit on truth? You believe it doesn't count because it was 40 years ago?
You then say quite incorrectly I am criticising the police whereas I am merely stating proven facts to show what the British are capable of.
You then say things have changed in the UK. So as you wish to believe events of 40 years ago mysteriously do not count
let us come further forward in time and consider:
The killing by police of an unarmed civilian on public transport because it was believed quite erroneously he was a terrorist The arrest of Muslims, their incarceration and poor treatment in Belmarsh because it looked as though they might be going to do something. It was never proven most were going to.
Every time there is a cock up the standard response from some talking head in officialdom is "lessons have been learned" Oh yes! but only in the same sense as Epaminondas and his Auntie. The cock ups continue.
I would suggest you stop trying to portray the McCann case UK / Portugal like a Hopalong Cassidy movie with black hats and white hats. You may then be taken more seriously.
black hats and white hats is exactly what you are guilty of...same as everybody else
continuing to cite terrorists cases to criticise SY...How do you counter those who are prepared to hack off someone's head and blow up hundreds of innocents...they will be here soon I'm afraid. You will be telling me next they have never had internment in Portugal...they haven't needed it.
To fight terrorism requires desperate measures...innocent people will be arrested...the option is to allow thousands of deaths in the uk
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SY are being blamed for the shooting of innocent civilians.
remember...Uk police have never wanted to be armed for very good reasons...terrorists and criminals have brought guns to the streets of the UK forcing the arming of the police...that's where the blame lies
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headline from the mail today..
Terror target Britain: More armed police to patrol streets as threat level is raised to its highest for years and Prime Minister warns that we are in the fanatics' sights
The more armed police on the streets the more mistakes involving guns will happen.....don't blame the police...blame the terrorists
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black hats and white hats is exactly what you are guilty of...same as everybody else
continuing to cite terrorists cases to criticise SY...How do you counter those who are prepared to hack off someone's head and blow up hundreds of innocents...they will be here soon I'm afraid. You will be telling me next they have never had internment in Portugal...they haven't needed it.
To fight terrorism requires desperate measures...innocent people will be arrested...the option is to allow thousands of deaths in the uk
Merciful heavens sir there you go again! I stated incontrovertible facts and you refer to it as criticism. By what device may fact be construed as criticism?
The rest of your argument is over emotional, naive and not relevant to the thread. "They" have been over here for years and more people die unpleasant deaths as a result of accidents in the home each year (ca 4000) than the result of terrorist activities.
How quickly the propagandist will resort to presenting perception over reality. Next will come the patriotism and belonging cards.
The topic is "Is SY all it is cracked up to be". NSY make mistakes and has beaten confessions out of people period.
Why argue against it?
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Merciful heavens sir there you go again! I stated incontrovertible facts and you refer to it as criticism. By what device may fact be construed as criticism?
The rest of your argument is over emotional, naive and not relevant to the thread. "They" have been over here for years and more people die unpleasant deaths as a result of accidents in the home each year (ca 4000) than the result of terrorist activities.
How quickly the propagandist will resort to presenting perception over reality. Next will come the patriotism and belonging cards.
The topic is "Is SY all it is cracked up to be". NSY make mistakes and has beaten confessions out of people period.
Why argue against it?
So NSY make mistakes and ...in the past have beaten confessions out of people...in what way does that answer the question?
What are SY cracked up to be....I still find it objectionable to be so critical of our police forces when acting in extreme circumstances...your statement that more people die unpleasant deaths in the home is bizarre to say the least..so we needn't worry about the terrorist threat....how many were killed in the 9/11 attack.
You have no way of knowing just how many lives NSY have saved due to their counter terrorist activities....you are the one who is naïve.....all those checks at the airports...the police should be concentrating on accidents in the home
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I wonder if the current lot of terrorists are any more dangerous than their IRA counterparts were ?
I certainly don't remember this degree of attention when they were active.
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I wonder if the current lot of terrorists are any more dangerous than their IRA counterparts were ?
I certainly don't remember this degree of attention when they were active.
I don't remember the IRA demolishing skycrapers with planes...nor having a seemingly endless supply of suicide bombers
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Method change.
In actual fact, terrorists don't need to do anything, as the mere threat is enough to send western governments into a tailspin and introduce all sorts of draconian measures against their own populations.
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Method change.
In actual fact, terrorists don't need to do anything, as the mere threat is enough to send western governments into a tailspin and introduce all sorts of draconian measures against their own populations.
Oh dear....lets hope the first bomb blows you up and not me
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Extremely unlikely, in my opinion.
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Extremely unlikely, in my opinion.
very unlikely...but the threat I think is very likely...the Uk will not stand by and see ISIS commit the awful atrocities they have started... they will get involved and then the UK will become a target..we will be looking to SY to protect us
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black hats and white hats is exactly what you are guilty of...same as everybody else
continuing to cite terrorists cases to criticise SY...How do you counter those who are prepared to hack off someone's head and blow up hundreds of innocents...they will be here soon I'm afraid. You will be telling me next they have never had internment in Portugal...they haven't needed it.
To fight terrorism requires desperate measures...innocent people will be arrested...the option is to allow thousands of deaths in the uk
They are here already, davel, in fact we have so many to spare we are able to export them; there has been an attempt at one public beheading so watch this space.
All that stands between them and us are the security services.
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So NSY make mistakes and ...in the past have beaten confessions out of people...in what way does that answer the question?
What are SY cracked up to be....I still find it objectionable to be so critical of our police forces when acting in extreme circumstances...your statement that more people die unpleasant deaths in the home is bizarre to say the least..so we needn't worry about the terrorist threat....how many were killed in the 9/11 attack.
You have no way of knowing just how many lives NSY have saved due to their counter terrorist activities....you are the one who is naïve.....all those checks at the airports...the police should be concentrating on accidents in the home
Now remind me where that was. As I recall that was not on British soil correct me if I am wrong.
What I find bizarre is you raising the emotional ante in your language every time I state a fact about NSY that does not fit with your debating stance. Stating facts is not criticism.
As far as Brietta's comment about public beheadings is concerned remember the public lynching of two squaddy corporals in Casement Park in 1988? the first part of that was televised by news stations including the BBC. Think of all the mainland IRA activity there was over a period of two decades and you seriously believe we are in more danger now?
You cannot deflect from the truth Davel no matter how unpalatable you find it and naively repeating it is all justified because the barbarians are at the gates will not change that.
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Now remind me where that was. As I recall that was not on British soil correct me if I am wrong.
What I find bizarre is you raising the emotional ante in your language every time I state a fact about NSY that does not fit with your debating stance. Stating facts is not criticism.
As far as Brietta's comment about public beheadings is concerned remember the public lynching of two squaddy corporals in Casement Park in 1988? the first part of that was televised by news stations including the BBC. Think of all the mainland IRA activity there was over a period of two decades and you seriously believe we are in more danger now?
You cannot deflect from the truth Davel no matter how unpalatable you find it and naively repeating it is all justified because the barbarians are at the gates will not change that.
it is you that is deflecting...you have not answered the most important question which I asked some time ago...What ARE SY cracked up to be...this is the rather clumsy title of the thread...until we decide the answer to this question we cannot decide anything...
The terrorist issue is an aside and we will not agree...yes I think we are at much more of a threat now...remember Lee Rigby....and again...how many lives have SY saved...we don't know..
But first...to be on topic...what is the OT supposed to mean..
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it is you that is deflecting...you have not answered the most important question which I asked some time ago...What ARE SY cracked up to be...this is the rather clumsy title of the thread...until we decide the answer to this question we cannot decide anything...
The terrorist issue is an aside and we will not agree...yes I think we are at much more of a threat now...remember Lee Rigby....and again...how many lives have SY saved...we don't know..
But first...to be on topic...what is the OT supposed to mean..
One individual. Extremely sad for the family, but hardly a major disaster for the country at large.
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One individual. Extremely sad for the family, but hardly a major disaster for the country at large.
I think it is a disaster for the country at large...a strange and callous sentiment from you
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No, a disaster for the country would be paralysis of the transport or energy system, or a nuclear explosion.
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I think it is a disaster for the country at large...a strange and callous sentiment from you
I totally agree. It makes you wonder how awful an attack has to be before people consider it a disaster! One person not a disaster, how about 50-odd?
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Rubbish - people get murdered all the time.
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Rubbish - people get murdered all the time.
an extremely callous statement
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No, a disaster for the country would be paralysis of the transport or energy system, or a nuclear explosion.
I would actually prefer if the transport system had been paralysed and Lee Rigby was still alive
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an extremely callous statement
No, realistic.
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No, realistic.
imo ...callous
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Rubbish - people get murdered all the time.
7/7 - disaster for the UK or no biggie in your view?
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7/7 - disaster for the UK or no biggie in your view?
Disaster ? Not really. Most of the 65 million of the population were unaffected.
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Disaster ? Not really. Most of the 65 million of the population were unaffected.
Wrong. We have all been affected in one way or another, and not for the better.
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http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jul/05/british-muslims-after-july7-attacks
The 7/7 bombings had a huge impact on Britain. But for British Muslims, they were a disaster with far-reaching consequences
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Do you think so? My life has continued pretty much the same.
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Disaster ? Not really. Most of the 65 million of the population were unaffected.
I find your attitude towards your fellow humans disgraceful...does anyone on here agree with you?
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http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jul/07/london-bombings-anti-terrorism
London bombings: the day the anti-terrorism rules changed
The controversial Terrorism Act 2006 passed after the 7 July bombings lead to increased arrests and convictions
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Do you think so? My life has continued pretty much the same.
Don't even know what year it was, don't care either.
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I find your attitude towards your fellow humans disgraceful...does anyone on here agree with you?
Feel as outraged as you like - doesn't matter to me.
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Do you think so? My life has continued pretty much the same.
You just don't get it do you? Never mind, you're alright Jack.
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Don't even know what year it was, don't care either.
To tell you the truth, I have forgotten.
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You just don't get it do you? Never mind, you're alright Jack.
Absolutely.
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http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jul/07/london-bombings-anti-terrorism
London bombings: the day the anti-terrorism rules changed
The controversial Terrorism Act 2006 passed after the 7 July bombings lead to increased arrests and convictions
as I have said earlier...the british bobby never wanted to be armed...so its the terrorists and criminals who are responsible for deaths by armed police
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Putting more armed police on the streets is going to make a big difference?
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Putting more armed police on the streets is going to make a big difference?
in your very limited opinion...so all those armed police...perhaps you haven't seen them...at airports...are not making travel safer...it's at times like this when I do feel my opinion is superior
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in your very limited opinion...so all those armed police...perhaps you haven't seen them...at airports...are not making travel safer...it's at times like this when I do feel my opinion is superior
I don't suppose I shall be seeing many in Carlisle.
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Or so we are led to believe.
What level of protection do you feel would be appropriate against the threat of terrorism from Muslim extremists? Would you prefer it if the government said to its people: "shit happens, there's nothing anyone can do about terrorism, just get on with your lives - ever considered moving to Carlisle?"
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What level of protection do you feel would be appropriate against the threat of terrorism from Muslim extremists? Would you prefer it if the government said to its people: "shit happens, there's nothing anyone can do about terrorism, just get on with your lives - ever considered moving to Carlisle?"
So statistically speaking what are the chances of dying in a terrorist attack in The UK vs dying in an a RTA? How many people have died in London as the result of terrorist attacks since say 1974 and how many people died in the Moorgate tube crash of that year and the Kings Cross fire of 1987?. Has the incidence of terrorist attacks per decade increased or decreased since 1970s. How many attacks have there been by Islamic Extremists vs say The Real IRA. How many attacks have there been on Mosques in the present decade?
Don't be so bloody silly, Alfred, of course we want the security services to be on the ball but you are all at sixes and sevens in a world of perception over reality, punting your own shallow agenda about which really amounts to little more than anyone who is remotely critical of the McCanns is typified as socially inferior or lacking in mores and anything else you might care to insinuate. I can recommend a good book: "The War of The Running Dogs" by Noel Barber.
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So statistically speaking what are the chances of dying in a terrorist attack in The UK vs dying in an a RTA? How many people have died in London as the result of terrorist attacks since say 1974 and how many people died in the Moorgate tube crash of that year and the Kings Cross fire of 1987?. Has the incidence of terrorist attacks per decade increased or decreased since 1970s. How many attacks have there been by Islamic Extremists vs say The Real IRA. How many attacks have there been on Mosques in the present decade?
Don't be so bloody silly, Alfred, of course we want the security services to be on the ball but you are all at sixes and sevens in a world of perception over reality, punting your own shallow agenda about which really amounts to little more than anyone who is remotely critical of the McCanns is typified as socially inferior or lacking in mores and anything else you might care to insinuate. I can recommend a good book: "The War of The Running Dogs" by Noel Barber.
This sentence of yours makes little sense: "Don't be so bloody silly, Alfred, of course we want the security services to be on the ball but you are all at sixes and sevens in a world of perception over reality, punting your own shallow agenda about which really amounts to little more than anyone who is remotely critical of the McCanns is typified as socially inferior or lacking in mores and anything else you might care to insinuate".
Could you please quote specifically what I have written on this thread that you consider to be "so bloody silly" and then I will know specifically what it is you have an objection to.
When you talk about the statistics of dying in a terrorist attack now versus then, would you care to consider just why there are so few successful attacks in this country? Could it have anything whatsoever to do with successful measures taken by security forces to prevent more attacks, or not at all in your view? Incidentally, fewer people now die in Road Traffic accidents than then did years ago because of government imposed sanctions on our civil liberties - do you object to these in principal?
As an aside, if we were talking about measures put in place by government to protect children against abuse or neglect at the expense of our civil liberties, then I've no doubt it would be a whole different argument wouldn't it?
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This sentence of yours makes little sense: "Don't be so bloody silly, Alfred, of course we want the security services to be on the ball but you are all at sixes and sevens in a world of perception over reality, punting your own shallow agenda about which really amounts to little more than anyone who is remotely critical of the McCanns is typified as socially inferior or lacking in mores and anything else you might care to insinuate".
Could you please quote specifically what I have written on this thread that you consider to be "so bloody silly" and then I will know specifically what it is you have an objection to.
When you talk about the statistics of dying in a terrorist attack now versus then, would you care to consider just why there are so few successful attacks in this country? Could it have anything whatsoever to do with successful measures taken by security forces to prevent more attacks, or not at all in your view? Incidentally, fewer people now die in Road Traffic accidents than then did years ago because of government imposed sanctions on our civil liberties - do you object to these in principal?
As an aside, if we were talking about measures put in place by government to protect children against abuse or neglect at the expense of our civil liberties, then I've no doubt it would be a whole different argument wouldn't it?
Merciful heavens sir; I cannot believe you are really that simple that you failed to understand the meaning of my post.
Which basically is: don't be bloody daft in suggesting some of us do not want our security services to be on the ball.
Don't be bloody daft relying on the old "let's deal in perception rather than reality" routine.
Don't be bloody daft in suggesting that anyone who is slightly skeptical of the McCanns or says a good word about anything Portuguese or makes a critical comment about NSY is somehow socially, mentally or morally deficient.
It says more about you than the recipients. *&*%£ 8(>((
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All these points you raise are basically meaningless in assessing the competence of SY...it's called anecdotal evidence..its like saying someone who smokes 100 cigarettes a day and lives till they are 90 proves smoking is good for you
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All these points you raise are basically meaningless in assessing the competence of SY...it's called anecdotal evidence..its like saying someone who smokes 100 cigarettes a day and lives till they are 90 proves smoking is good for you
The response was to Alfred The Caddis Fly Expert asking me what was bloody silly about his post.
Do keep up dear boy.
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Two more children let down by SY :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1345219/Rachel-Nickells-son-witness-murder-breaks-18-year-silence.html
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Yes, let down by a police force who were convinced they'd already got their man, despite a complete lack of evidence and a stubborn refusal to consider the alternatives. Lessons the Met have hopefully learned by now, let's hope the PJ have learned from their similar failings in the Madeleine McCann case.
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Yes, let down by a police force who were convinced they'd already got their man, despite a complete lack of evidence and a stubborn refusal to consider the alternatives. Lessons the Met have hopefully learned by now, let's hope the PJ have learned from their similar failings in the Madeleine McCann case.
Indeed.
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Yes, let down by a police force who were convinced they'd already got their man, despite a complete lack of evidence and a stubborn refusal to consider the alternatives. Lessons the Met have hopefully learned by now, let's hope the PJ have learned from their similar failings in the Madeleine McCann case.
Doesn't seem like SY have learned anything in the intervening years.
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Doesn't seem like SY have learned anything in the intervening years.
And why do you say that Faithlilly? Do you think the Met should be taking lessons from the PJ who behaved very much like the Met did in the Rachel Nickell case when investigating the Madeleine McCann disappearance?
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And why do you say that Faithlilly? Do you think the Met should be taking lessons from the PJ who behaved very much like the Met did in the Rachel Nickell case when investigating the Madeleine McCann disappearance?
Any police force in the world would investigate those closest to the victim first. That is what the PJ did.
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Any police force in the world would investigate those closest to the victim first. That is what the PJ did.
And reached the right conclusion (that the McCanns had/have no case to answer).
But they took much longer to reach that conclusion than they should have.
And in the meantime, chances of nailing the true perpetrator(s) of crime(s) against Madeleine steadily receded.
There lies the real tragedy ...
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And reached the right conclusion (that the McCanns had/have no case to answer).
But they took much longer to reach that conclusion than they should have.
And in the meantime, chances of nailing the true perpetrator(s) of crime(s) against Madeleine steadily receded.
There lies the real tragedy ...
Well said Ferryman.
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Any police force in the world would investigate those closest to the victim first. That is what the PJ did.
Not that long ago you were opining that Andy Redwood was forced to say on TV that the McCanns are not suspects in order not to feed speculation and you seemed to be suggesting that the Met still had the McCanns very much in their sights. Has your opinion now changed, and if so why?
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Any police force in the world would investigate those closest to the victim first. That is what the PJ did.
Indeed, and continue to do so now!