UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pegasus on September 07, 2014, 12:40:16 AM
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...Was it ever established exactly which building Pedras Brancas is and whether it is on Smithman's possible route?
Yes and yes. If you are walking south along Rua Escola Primeira, it is on your right, just before the smith sighting. It has 7 floors, 2 lifts, and dozens of apartments.
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Yes and yes. If you are walking south along Rua Escola Primeira, it is on your right, just before the smith sighting. It has 7 floors, 2 lifts, and dozens of apartments.
I think this is it.
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg)
It is the Staff Quarters
Just about 50 metres from Peter Smith along the same road, Rua da Escola Primeira. As I have several times pointed out, this is the building that according to the 3A's forum, a scream came from at a pertinent time.
It was on Smithmans route and I wonder if he had just come from there when he bumped into the Smiths.
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Sadie is correct.
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I think this is it.
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg)
It is the Staff Quarters
Just about 50 metres from Peter Smith along the same road, Rua da Escola Primeira. As I have several times pointed out, this is the building that according to the 3A's forum, a scream came from at a pertinent time.
It was on Smithmans route and I wonder if he had just come from there when he bumped into the Smiths.
Smithman almost certainly came from the north which is to the right of the above picture and he may have gone in to the staff quarters before carrying on down to the Smiths. They were downhill exiting the photo to its left.
I hope you can understand me.
The photo below is taken from a spot where he had just passed the staff quarters. He met Peter Smith and co about 40 metres down the slope, somewhere near where you see the first tall building on the left
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg)
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Yes and yes. If you are walking south along Rua Escola Primeira, it is on your right, just before the smith sighting. It has 7 floors, 2 lifts, and dozens of apartments.
Thank you, Pegasus and Sadie.
It doesn't really make sense that "Smithman" would have been in & out of that building, with child, in the time slot available. As the building was used for the staff at OC, that would no doubt explain the screams.
As you are both here, can you tell me if you have come across UK-book. info...the phonebook of.....(harding ginger)?
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Thank you, Pegasus and Sadie.
It doesn't really make sense that "Smithman" would have been in & out of that building, with child, in the time slot available. As the building was used for the staff at OC, that would no doubt explain the screams.
As you are both here, can you tell me if you have come across UK-book. info...the phonebook of.....(harding ginger)?
Sorry, I cant help you on that.
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In this photo http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg the lowest floor, which is an incomplete floor because of the ground slope, has numbering 001, 002, 003, etc. The next floor up, which is the first complete floor, has numbering 101, 102, 103, etc, so is the floor where this diligence being discussed took place. There are 7 floors in all.
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Thank you, Pegasus and Sadie.
It doesn't really make sense that "Smithman" would have been in & out of that building, with child, in the time slot available. As the building was used for the staff at OC, that would no doubt explain the screams.
As you are both here, can you tell me if you have come across UK-book. info...the phonebook of.....(harding ginger)?
We dont know what time the abduction took place, Misty. Personally, I think he stayed at the Staff quarters until he got a message to go somewhere else .... a pick up, maybe?
I have always thought that the actual lifting of Madeleine from her bed was done by someone that Madeleine knew and trusted. OC Staff, perhaps?
But both these things are only thoughts.
He could also have picked up a long sleeve cardi there for Madeleine.
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In this photo http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg the lowest floor, which is an incomplete floor because of the ground slope, has numbering 001, 002, 003, etc. The next floor up, which is the first complete floor, has numbering 101, 102, 103, etc, so is the floor where this diligence being discussed took place. There are 7 floors in all.
Another thought just came to me. Robert Murats house was on a slope, same as 5A.
There was reportedly a big void underneath Murats. Might there also have been an accessable void under The Staff Quarters?
Now at this interesting point, pease forgive me, I must get to bed ... an zonked !
Nigh night
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We dont know what time the abduction took place, Misty. Personally, I think he stayed at the Staff quarters until he got a message to go somewhere else .... a pick up, maybe?
I have always thought that the actual lifting of Madeleine from her bed was done by someone that Madeleine knew and trusted. OC Staff, perhaps?
But both these things are only thoughts.
He could also have picked up a long sleeve cardi there for Madeleine.
I believe the abduction took place at around 9.30, because of a certain comment made. I don't believe it was by anyone she knew and I believe she was alive when she left the apartment. I believe there was only one member of staff involved, purely for the purposes of getting the key.
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Smithman almost certainly came from the north which is to the right of the above picture and he may have gone in to the staff quarters before carrying on down to the Smiths. They were downhill exiting the photo to its left.
I hope you can understand me.
The photo below is taken from a spot where he had just passed the staff quarters. He met Peter Smith and co about 40 metres down the slope, somewhere near where you see the first tall building on the left
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg)
The bottom photo is looking down Rua D'Escola towards the south and the sea.
I should add that at the bottom of the road, where the car and pale orange coloured house is that is Rua 25 Abril.
Aoifie was just to the left of that car when she saw Smithman, but at this stage of his walk he wouldn't have seen her or Martin Smith, because they hadn't arrived there yet. I wonder if Peter Smith was also out of view at this stage of Smithmans walk?
To go towards the church, Smithman had to turn left at the car (go east). To go towards the beach Smithman had to go straight on at the car, down a flight of steps (go south)
From things said in Aoifies statement, We have already ruled out the likelyhood of him turning right (west)
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Re http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg184507#msg184507
As Sadie points out this building also features in a Sol article about a muffled cry.
Majority of the many apartments in building were homes of local residents, or holiday lets, however a smaller number of apartments here were employer-provided accomodation for MW seasonal staff so for example a good proportion of the childcare workers lived here (although you won't find that directly stated anywhere in the files)
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On the written statement sheets of some MW seasonal staff, the PJ in the box for local address just typed "at accommodation provided by the employer" or even just "unknown".
Why were their actual local addresses not typed by PJ?
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Re http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg184507#msg184507
As Sadie points out this building also features in a Sol article about a muffled cry.
Majority of the many apartments in building were homes of local residents, or holiday lets, however a smaller number of apartments here were employer-provided accomodation for MW seasonal staff so for example a good proportion of the childcare workers lived here (although you won't find that directly stated anywhere in the files)
I dont think I can take credit for the Sol article Pegasus. My info came just from reading the 3A's. There were a couple or so brilliant sleuths in there. Were you one of them?
So childcare workers employed by Mark Warner lived here. Any other groups that you know about?
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On the written statement sheets of some MW seasonal staff, the PJ in the box for local address just typed "at accommodation provided by the employer" or even just "unknown".
Why were their actual local addresses not typed by PJ?
How strange. My antennae start twitching when I hear something like that.
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I dont think I can take credit for the Sol article Pegasus. My info came just from reading the 3A's. There were a couple or so brilliant sleuths in there. Were you one of them?
So childcare workers employed by Mark Warner lived here. Any other groups that you know about?
That was I think only a very small proportion of the several dozen apartments in the building: from statements it can be worked out it was at least two apartments, I don't know if it was any more than that.
The rest - local residents of various nationalities, and tourist rentals, and a business.
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I think this is it.
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/5064/iyf8.jpg)
It is the Staff Quarters
Just about 50 metres from Peter Smith along the same road, Rua da Escola Primeira. As I have several times pointed out, this is the building that according to the 3A's forum, a scream came from at a pertinent time.
It was on Smithmans route and I wonder if he had just come from there when he bumped into the Smiths.
We have to be careful here Sadie not to tread too far into the realms of speculation. An innocent Smithman could have emerged from just about anywhere along that road, we cannot even be sure he came from the north.
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That was I think only a very small proportion of the several dozen apartments in the building: from statements it can be worked out it was at least two apartments, I don't know if it was any more than that.
The rest - local residents of various nationalities, and tourist rentals, and a business.
Thanks pegasus.
There is another route down to the Smiths sighting that I think we have ignored. Maybe Heri showed it once?
I am unable to post GE images. It would be good if someone could post this route giving a birds eye view, cos this description is rather long. Much easier to follow with a marked map alongside the description [which took me hours to produce !]
The route is very quiet, starting at 5A in Rua Dr Agostinho de Silva. That is the road that runs in front of 5A where Jane Tanner saw bundleman walking and then turn right down the first north-south running alleyway east of 5A. It runs parallel with Rua Dr F Martin Gentils.
1. Walk down that alleyway
2. Turn right at the third turning, along another alleyway. That passes Matt Fazackerleys back gate (No, 35)
3. Cross Rua Dr F Martin Gentils. This brings you out on a long triangular grassed area. [immediately at the northern edge of Baptista supermarket - white square building on GE with an extension on the northern side ]
4. This grassed area is ill lit, most especially its southern edge. Also very quiet.
5. Walk west along its length, coming out on a car park. This car park is lit, but is fronted by shops which will be closed after 8pm, so quiet again.
However overlooked by the LuzTor building ...... but who would be sitting on the balcony on a cool breezy evening, especially as no sea view from that northern aspect of the building, just a view of a car park ? ****
6. Walk west across that car par park being somewhat shielded from view by parked cars. Come out at its SW corner.
7. Cross the main road, Rua Primiero de Maio. This would be free of traffick a lot of the time in early May.
Cross this road on to another car park opposite. There appears to be a pathway all around the back of the car park, but Smithman was going SW so he would just take the short length of pathway at its southern end, going south along the back pathway, again somewhat hidden by parked cars.
8. On GE map dated 6/22/2007, so virtually the correct date, there appears to be a gap thru the fence and when looked at on street scene (much later version), it appears that the wasteland is fairly flat at this point with no shaley slopes. Walk thru this gap and across the wasteland coming out at the south-western point of the wasteland. [Corner of Rua Ema Vieira Alvernas)
9. Straight across that minor road in a due west direction and it immediately brings you to a small building, [a toilet block?] and a gap thru into Rua Da Escola, less than 20 metres north of Peter Smith
You can see the ?toilet block? and gap through on the photo below. ?Toilet block? is the small white building to the left of the Rua da Escola, with gap thru the wall adjacent.
Did Smithman come from the left of that image, thru that gap on to Rua da Escola, rather than all the way down Rua da Escola as we previously thought?
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg)
**** Ok, OK, someone claims to have been smoking on one of the balconies. Have forgotten who. and was he on that side of the building, or one of the other three?
To decide where the wall around the waste land was broken, or open, or very low, I have used shadows. A wide shadow shows a tall wall and a narrow shadow shows a low wall. No shadow a break in the wall. The position that the wall is relative to the sun will alter the widths of shadows, so it is an imprecise measure, but a good indicator. I use shadows often to rough guage building heights
These are only my thoughts and may be completely wrong, but they are plausible, I believe.
Sorry this is so long
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The route I am suggesting above seems a darker, quieter, safer route to me than doubling back across the front of 5A, and following a closely fenced in road as Rua Da Escola is, with no escape if challenged
This is part of Rua da Escola higher up that he would have had to walk if he came that way.
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4242/gc9q.jpg
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4242/gc9q.jpg)
In the LH background is LuzTor building. In the RH background is the building which houses the staff quarters.
Behind the metal fencing is the large area of wasteland that I only viewed from one spot on its eastern side. It was shaley and steep and i dismissed it. Maybe I should have looked all around it, but 3 days wasn't long enough to do everything
And Porto interested me more
.... but if he took the new route I am suggesting, it implies a person who well knew his way around PdL via the dark routes
My thanks to Pathfinder for all the photos.
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We have to be careful here Sadie not to tread too far into the realms of speculation. An innocent Smithman could have emerged from just about anywhere along that road, we cannot even be sure he came from the north.
Are you a mind reader, or something? @)(++(*
I found a gap in the wall that I had never noticed before making another route viable. Prior to that, no other route other than down the length of Rua da Escola was really sensible
I know it is a nuisance, but could you please post an image of the area from the top of the alleyway immedaitely to the east of Rua F Martin Gentils. Covering t Thru to Aoifies sighting.
With both the previously accepted route and the possible new route marked? I would be ever so grateful. My description is complex, needs to be, but also difficult to follow with no map to refer to. Would be good to compare the routes.
Thanks in anticipation
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(http://i.imgur.com/Mx17z58.jpg)
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Is this the gap in the wall you are referring to Sadie which if used would have brought Smithman out onto Rua da Escola Primária ahead of the Smith family?
(http://i.imgur.com/fyqBTVk.jpg?1)
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I have always thought that Madeleine was abducted earlier, and then hidden somewhere for a short while, waiting for contact with others.
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I have always thought that Madeleine was abducted earlier, and then hidden somewhere for a short while, waiting for contact with others.
Seems a fairly common theory on both sides.
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Seems a fairly common theory on both sides.
My theories are always common. Common Sense, that is.
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I have always thought that Madeleine was abducted earlier, and then hidden somewhere for a short while, waiting for contact with others.
Perhaps in the empty apartment in block 5? they could have been out of sight in a matter of seconds and I am not sure the GNR dogs' interest was fully checked out at the time.
A high risk strategy, although Misty is of the opinion no-one would have looked twice at laundry bags being taken out and removed in the laundry van.
I'm still of the opinion that the man Jane Tanner saw is a more likely candidate to be the abductor than the man seen by the Smith family.
It can bee seen from the pyjamas the child was wearing on the night in question that they have long sleeves; that would correspond with Aoife Smith's description of the child being carried perhaps by the father who has been eliminated from the inquiry.
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Perhaps in the empty apartment in block 5? they could have been out of sight in a matter of seconds and I am not sure the GNR dogs' interest was fully checked out at the time.
A high risk strategy, although Misty is of the opinion no-one would have looked twice at laundry bags being taken out and removed in the laundry van.
I'm still of the opinion that the man Jane Tanner saw is a more likely candidate to be the abductor than the man seen by the Smith family.
It can bee seen from the pyjamas the child was wearing on the night in question that they have long sleeves; that would correspond with Aoife Smith's description of the child being carried perhaps by the father who has been eliminated from the inquiry.
I think the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, Brietta. Who got away from 5A and then hid somewhere before meeting up with someone else.
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After some recent research, I am even more unsure as to her fate, however if it was an abduction, I believe it would have been carried out by people who were paid by someone, they dare not cross.
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(http://i.imgur.com/Mx17z58.jpg)
Thank you John, I appreciate you going to the trouble to produce that GE map. It is slow work, I know that.
A couple of slight ammendments if you dont mind
1) Any chance that you could swing the image thru 90* please, cos most people will expect the top of the image to be the north ... and this isn't. You and I can understand it, becos of our engineering drawing experiences, but some may not be able to recognise things on their sides !
2) Your route is slightly different from the route I describe
As you probably know, the large white square in the upper middle of this present image is Baptistas supermarket, BUT Baptistas also has an extension to the north of it. and it looks rather like car park when viewed from above, (LH side of Baptistas in this present image). Like you, I originally thought that it was car park but it is the extension roof that we were looking at. You will see it in Google Earth strteet scene. ... So he coulkdn't walk that way
Because of that I decided the most hidden, safest, most likely route from the alleyway behind Fazackerlys was across to the long triangle of green (grass), walk along its length coming out at the NE corner of the car park in front of a few shops.
Diagonally across that car park, across the main road to the southern end of the big car park on the west of the main road. I felt that as he was not wanting to be seen he would go to the back of that car park and walk through what appears to be a gap on to the waste land
Tell you what, John, I will email you an image. It is difficult to describe, it is so detailed.
BTW, thanks for starting a new thread. I was worrying that I had posted it in the wrong thread.
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Is this the gap in the wall you are referring to Sadie which if used would have brought Smithman out onto Rua da Escola Primária ahead of the Smith family?
(http://i.imgur.com/fyqBTVk.jpg?1)
Yep, that is exactly where I mean. Great image, thanks.
Peter Smith was between the lady in red and the ?lady in pink when they met Smithman.
Martin was at the bottom, on the RHS, when Smithman walked down ... and Aiofie apeared from up the steps on to the piece of pavement that sticks into the road [both close to the house at the end]. Most probably neither had appeared as Smithman started down Rua d'Escola
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I have always thought that Madeleine was abducted earlier, and then hidden somewhere for a short while, waiting for contact with others.
Me too, Eleanor.
There are small indicators, imo.
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Me too, Eleanor.
There are small indicators, imo.
The power of the imagination sometimes knows no limits.
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The power of the imagination sometimes knows no limits.
@)(++(*
Aww ..... I love the responces of a dour Scotsman.
1. I still wonder about Bundleman. I believe Jane Tanner absolutely and I think she saw Madeleine being taken... and that was as Gerry was chatting with Jez.
2. Matt thought that there might have been some light coming thru the window, so shutter lifted? No need for the curtain to flutter at the time he went in, the winds were picking up and it may have been very still when he looked in. The Lull before the storm.
3. The kids bedroom door was already opened some .... so had Madeleine been already taken and removed when Matt got there? When planned and practiced a one minute job, maximum. I think she had gone.
Sorry SY, sorry Stephen, but I am with Eleanor on this one. I think Madeleine was already gone, probably via the front door.
But I am open minded and prepared to consider other options.
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The power of the imagination sometimes knows no limits.
You are right about that Stephen, and you have offered some interesting opinions, which is what this Forum is all about. I tend to lean towards a more positive outcome because that is how my mind works. Quite possibly wishful thinking, but that's just me. In the absence of proof, I always hope for the best.
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@)(++(*
Aww ..... I love the responces of a dour Scotsman.
1. I still wonder about Bundleman. I believe Jane Tanner absolutely and I think she saw Madeleine being taken... and that was immediately after Gerry left.
2. Matt thought that there might have been some light coming thru the window, so shutter lifted? No need for the curtain to flutter at the time he went in, the winds were picking up and it may have been very still when he looked in. The Lull before the storm.
3. The kids bedroom door was already opened some .... so had Madeleine been already taken and removed when Matt got there? When planned and practiced a one minute job, maximum. I think she had gone.
Sorry SY, sorry Stephen, but I am with Eleanor on this one. I think Madeleine was already gone, probably via the front door.
But I am open minded and prepared to consider other options.
Your powers of deduction never cease to amaze me sadie. *&*%£
Technically, I am 0.125 Scottish, in my ancestry, so your a wee bit off the mark, as usual.
As for 'abduction', persuade me of the logic of that.
I'm all ears.(http://www.boardforus.com/public/style_emoticons/default/spock-spock-star-trek-smiley-emoticon-000554-large.gif)
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@)(++(*
Aww ..... I love the responces of a dour Scotsman.
1. I still wonder about Bundleman. I believe Jane Tanner absolutely and I think she saw Madeleine being taken... and that was immediately after Gerry left.
2. Matt thought that there might have been some light coming thru the window, so shutter lifted? No need for the curtain to flutter at the time he went in, the winds were picking up and it may have been very still when he looked in. The Lull before the storm.
3. The kids bedroom door was already opened some .... so had Madeleine been already taken and removed when Matt got there? When planned and practiced a one minute job, maximum. I think she had gone.
Sorry SY, sorry Stephen, but I am with Eleanor on this one. I think Madeleine was already gone, probably via the front door.
But I am open minded and prepared to consider other options.
Anything wrong with my observations Stephen?
Unlike you, I am open minded and willing to consider every option ... but no-one has come up with a sensible option that the Mccanns did it ... have you?
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Your powers of deduction never cease to amaze me sadie. *&*%£
Technically, I am 0.125 Scottish, in my ancestry, so your a wee bit off the mark, as usual.
As for 'abduction', persuade me of the logic of that.
I'm all ears.(http://www.boardforus.com/public/style_emoticons/default/spock-spock-star-trek-smiley-emoticon-000554-large.gif)
There has never been any proof that Madeleine was abducted. An open shutter and window are evidence but neutral evidence which is what makes this case all the more intriguing imo. Guilty or innocent, this case is like the Scottish referendum, too close to call!
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1. I still wonder about Bundleman. I believe Jane Tanner absolutely and I think she saw Madeleine being taken... and that was immediately after Gerry left.
2. Matt thought that there might have been some light coming thru the window, so shutter lifted? No need for the curtain to flutter at the time he went in, the winds were picking up and it may have been very still when he looked in. The Lull before the storm.
3. The kids bedroom door was already opened some .... so had Madeleine been already taken and removed when Matt got there? When planned and practiced a one minute job, maximum. I think she had gone.
Sorry SY, sorry Stephen, but I am with Eleanor on this one. I think Madeleine was already gone, probably via the front door.
But I am open minded and prepared to consider other options.
I totally agree with your points Sadie but for different reasons.
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There has never been any proof that Madeleine was abducted. An open shutter and window are evidence but neutral evidence which is what makes this case all the more intriguing imo. Guilty or innocent, this case is like the Scottish referendum, too close to call!
If Maddie really was abducted, Kate had no reason to lie about the details of the 2 sightings, but she did lie, it's there for all to see on the pyjamas thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5018.75
Or here:
Kate 'did not tell the truth' about the child's arm's/sleeves.
McCann Oprah 4th May 2009
Gerry : "Jane went to check on her children and it was at that point she was just passed us going up to the corner and she saw a man carrying a young girl with almo.. she described independently the pyjamas that Madeleine had on.."
Kate: "The child was barefoot and bare armed..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xNI5up44Nho#t=820
Jane Tanner didn't see the child's arms.
Kate say's Smithman's child had nothing on her arms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fRQQWmpiO3s#t=293
Smithman's child was witnessed to have had long sleeves on, as shown in the Crimewatch reconstruction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y#t=1431
There was no innocent reason for her to do that.
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Hope this helps Sadie?
(http://i.imgur.com/XH8QVQg.jpg-Smithman-Route-Madeleine_McCann-Praia_da_Luz)
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Your powers of deduction never cease to amaze me sadie. *&*%£
Technically, I am 0.125 Scottish, in my ancestry, so your a wee bit off the mark, as usual.
As for 'abduction', persuade me of the logic of that.
I'm all ears.(http://www.boardforus.com/public/style_emoticons/default/spock-spock-star-trek-smiley-emoticon-000554-large.gif)
Well I think that I am even less Scottish, but I am quite pleased with the bit that is.
Seems I am a real mongrel, bits of this and bits of that.
I have alraedy put up as much of my theories as I am able, the greater part possibly being sub judicy, so I cant post that. You can read back for the stuff that I believe .... but I hone it as new information and thoughts appear, based on that info.
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Hope this helps Sadie?
(http://i.imgur.com/XH8QVQg.jpg-Smithman-Route-Madeleine_McCann-Praia_da_Luz)
Thank you John
So much better, the right way up.
But it varies from my route in two places.
1. The third turning right rather than the second off the long alleyway.
The way I have it, he kept to quiet, ill lit, little walked alleyways, but as you show it with the second turn right, that goes straight through a better lit and more likely to be overlooked cul-de-sac. A busier place.
Again after turning second right he comes out on a wide pathway to the north side of the green lawned area..
I think that having come down the third alleyway, he was more likely to have crossed onto the actual lawned triangular area and to have sneaked along the north side of Baptistas, close to the wall. Further from the houses, and the walk way and also dimly lit. He would still have come out at the top RH corner of the first car park
2. I also think that as he left that car park by its SW corner he would have preferred NOT to have to walk down the main road of Pdl, Rua Primeria de Maio. I think he would have crossed the main road and immediately put some parked cars on the second car park, between himself and anyone on Rua P. de Maio.
I think he would then have taken the opportunity to slip thru a gap (It shows on contemporary GE, if you zoom right in and look carefully).in the fencing on to the southern end of the wasteland. You can tell cos there is no shadow at the point where there is no fencing.
Feeling relatively safe on the wasteland he would have crossed it in a westerly direction, coming out right opposite the ?toilet block and the gap thru into Rua de Escola.
The reason for my route, is that it goes exclusively thru ill lit usually deserted alleyways, across car parks and virtually passes no homes nor travels any roads after the initial bit. So it would be the safest route imo.
Amarals route is also fairly safe cos Rua d'Escola is a quiet road, But has those confounded high fences on either side, trapping him if someone spotted him... and fairly well lit. Amarals route is the route that I also thought of originally, but now I wonder?
Thanks for all the work you have done, John
I know that it is a lot of work and I dont like to ask you to change this again, John, but it would be good if the plan matched my description. They dont match atm
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The thing is though Sadie, the Google images showing the missing fence panels are dated August 2009 so we have no way of knowing what the fencing was like in May 2007. Also there is no way of knowing what cars were parked after dark in the area you refer to.
I have altered the map as per your post above.
(http://i.imgur.com/HUMKiw1.jpg)
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He would take the quickest safest route with a missing child from 5A so I believe Amaral's route is correct but it had to be two moves in this case. It doesn't make any sense for Tannerman to take her at 9:10 and then be seen only 250 metres away at around 10. It only makes sense if he didn't have time to take her that far on his first move from 5A. The fact is Smithman couldn't do it in one move because he would lose his alibi.
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We have always assumed that Dr Amaral's suggested route was the correct one - Sadie has however come up with a reasonable alternative.
Even more so if the starting point from 5a is altered to the location of the night crèche.
The direction in which he was walking and the location of the man Jane Tanner saw was a rather strange one for a father who had picked up his child from the night crèche; we have already discussed this in some detail on the forum with the help of maps John posted showing the location of the crèche in relation to the junction where Jane saw him.
I think the man encountered by the Smith family may well have been on a direct path from the crèche to his accommodation; the photographs we have seen of the pyjamas his daughter was wearing on the night in question have long sleeves which would tie in with Aoife’s description.
The Met will of course know the holiday address of the father seen by witnesses and therefore know which person is more likely to be the actual suspect.
The DCI did not make a definitive statement eliminating Jane Tanner’s sighting which is strange given that he is very precise on every other well thought out statement he has made on the case.
I hazard a guess that the route taken by Smithman is a more logical one when bearing in mind the location of the crèche from where the child was picked up.
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We have always assumed that Dr Amaral's suggested route was the correct one - Sadie has however come up with a reasonable alternative.
Even more so if the starting point from 5a is altered to the location of the night crèche.
The direction in which he was walking and the location of the man Jane Tanner saw was a rather strange one for a father who had picked up his child from the night crèche; we have already discussed this in some detail on the forum with the help of maps John posted showing the location of the crèche in relation to the junction where Jane saw him.
I think the man encountered by the Smith family may well have been on a direct path from the crèche to his accommodation; the photographs we have seen of the pyjamas his daughter was wearing on the night in question have long sleeves which would tie in with Aoife’s description.
The Met will of course know the holiday address of the father seen by witnesses and therefore know which person is more likely to be the actual suspect.
The DCI did not make a definitive statement eliminating Jane Tanner’s sighting which is strange given that he is very precise on every other well thought out statement he has made on the case.
I hazard a guess that the route taken by Smithman is a more logical one when bearing in mind the location of the crèche from where the child was picked up.
Do you know where the night creche is? If he came from the creche he follows that road down to the church and goes up Rua 25 de Abril. Why would he go around and go back down that road? That also doesn't make any sense. The only route that makes sense is Amaral's route away from the Ocean Club to that sighting.
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My own view is that Madeleine was taken to a vehicle and it was Jane Tanner who witnessed it. The Smith sighting, although persuasive, is a red herring imo.
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My own view is that Madeleine was taken to a vehicle and it was Jane Tanner who witnessed it. The Smith sighting, although persuasive, is a red herring imo.
I agree that there is a strong possibility that Smithman is not "the Man" and nor is the innocent creche man.
If abduction, it would have been well planned with transport and only if an unexpected person was in the vicity at this time would there have been an alternative escape method adopted.
I do however agree that if a route was taken from JT sighting, to the area of the sighting by the Smith family, the route would have been through the more dicreet areas, such as Sadie has illustrated and obviously taken a lot of time working out. Thank you Sadie and John for making the routes visible to us all 8((()*/ *&(+(+
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My own view is that Madeleine was taken to a vehicle and it was Jane Tanner who witnessed it. The Smith sighting, although persuasive, is a red herring imo.
Why did Kate opt to lie about the detail of it then?
Why did the McCanns own documentary misrepresent the detail of it, if they are innocent & have nothing to hide?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5018.0
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Why did Kate opt to lie about the detail of it then?
Why did the McCanns own documentary misrepresent the detail of it, if they are innocent & have nothing to hide?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5018.0
I agree WS, there is a lot which is questionable and that is one reason why this case has always attracted so much debate.
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My own view is that Madeleine was taken to a vehicle and it was Jane Tanner who witnessed it. The Smith sighting, although persuasive, is a red herring imo.
He's never came forward to clear himself because he's guilty. It's not like the Madeleine McCann case is unknown in PDL @)(++(*
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He's never came forward to clear himself because he's guilty. It's not like the Madeleine McCann case is unknown in PDL @)(++(*
I think you may have missed the point I made that the man seen by Jane Tanner may not have been the innocent tourist.
There were two sightings of a man carrying a child that night – remove the man seen by Jane and who does that leave us with?
The clue - is long sleeved pyjamas.
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I think you may have missed the point I made that the man seen by Jane Tanner may not have been the innocent tourist.
There were two sightings of a man carrying a child that night – remove the man seen by Jane and who does that leave us with?
The clue - is long sleeved pyjamas.
Jane Tanner didn't think it was Madeleine or she would have said something. She first said the child was too small to be Maddy. You can tell by the way he was carrying the child it wasn't her. Smithman carried a different way because the child was bigger i.e. Maddy. There is only one way this was done and by one man.
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Jane Tanner didn't think it was Madeleine or she would have said something. She first said the child was too small to be Maddy. You can tell by the way he was carrying the child it wasn't her. Smithman carried a different way because the child was bigger i.e. Maddy. There is only one way this was done and by one man.
Why would Jane think when she saw that man and child that he was an abductor?
Why would she think the child was Madeleine?
She had just passed Madeleine’s father returning from checking on her.
Only when the alarm was raised that Madeleine was missing did she realise what she had witnessed; and despite the vitriol heaped on her over the years she stuck by what she had seen and she believed that was the kidnap of Madeleine McCann.
Aoife Smith saw a child wearing long sleeved pyjamas, I think you may have mentioned that once or twice, therefore on balance this is more likely to be the child who was carried home from the crèche.
The man carrying the child a few yards from the apartment from where Madeleine was taken is the more likely candidate to be the abductor.
My opinion only; but we can be assured that NSY know the rights and wrongs of it.
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Why would Jane think when she saw that man and child that he was an abductor?
Why would she think the child was Madeleine?
She had just passed Madeleine’s father returning from checking on her.
Only when the alarm was raised that Madeleine was missing did she realise what she had witnessed; and despite the vitriol heaped on her over the years she stuck by what she had seen and she believed that was the kidnap of Madeleine McCann.
Aoife Smith saw a child wearing long sleeved pyjamas, I think you may have mentioned that once or twice, therefore on balance this is more likely to be the child who was carried home from the crèche.
The man carrying the child a few yards from the apartment from where Madeleine was taken is the more likely candidate to be the abductor.
My opinion only; but we can be assured that NSY know the rights and wrongs of it.
"The child appeared to be older than a baby." (JT 4 May) Now why would she think that was Madeleine? The yard have got rid of that sighting. Crecheman's kid was a little 2 year old not nearly 4. They didn't put Smithman efits as the main focus of CW just for a laugh. Long sleeves will be at the landfill.
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IMO a likely scenario re Smithman is that he is a (non-english-speaking) innocent dad carrying his sleeping daughter, and they live somewhere a short distance down the lane of steps (Travessa Das Escadhinas) where if you look at aerial views you will see that some residences have no off road parking and also there is a shortage of on-road parking.
So I am suggesting the possibility he parks his vehicle in the parking area on the left in this photo
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg
where parking is plentiful, and then gets out of his vehicle and carries his sleeping daughter to their home.
People often do this if there is no parking outside their home - they park a little distance away where parking is easy then walk the short distance to their home.
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"On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions"
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
Very interesting.
"On the days right after" implies that this muffled cry was not on the the night of the 3rd, but on another night very soon after.
The resulting PJ search was "on Saturday, around half past midnight".
This indicates that the "muffled cry" was most likely heard at about midnight on the night of Saturday 5th.
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IMO a likely scenario re Smithman is that he is a (non-english-speaking) innocent dad carrying his sleeping daughter, and they live somewhere a short distance down the lane of steps (Travessa Das Escadhinas) where if you look at aerial views you will see that some residences have no off road parking and also there is a shortage of on-road parking.
So I am suggesting the possibility he parks his vehicle in the parking area on the left in this photo
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg
where parking is plentiful, and then gets out of his vehicle and carries his sleeping daughter to their home.
People often do this if there is no parking outside their home - they park a little distance away where parking is easy then walk the short distance to their home.
A good hypothesis that would have him exiting the parking area at the small pathway as suggested by Sadie.
From that, is it your opinion he is a local or do you think he might be the crèche dad?
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A good hypothesis that would have him exiting the parking area at the small pathway as suggested by Sadie.
From that, is it your opinion he is a local or do you think he might be the crèche dad?
The innocent man seen by JT and identified by SY is from england and speaks english.
The IMO innocent man seen by the Smith family according to a newspaper report did not respond to Mrs Smith's friendly english language greeting - therefore it seems clear to me he does not speak english.
So they are two completely different innocent dads IMO.
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The innocent man seen by JT and identified by SY is from england and speaks english.
The IMO innocent man seen by the Smith family according to a newspaper report did not respond to Mrs Smith's friendly english language greeting - therefore it seems clear to me he does not speak english.
So they are two completely different innocent dads IMO.
Yes Pegasus, I too believe that the Man who was dismissed by SC and the Smith sighting are innocent Dads, but not so sure that Jane didnt see the person responsible for Maddie's disappearance.
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"On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions"
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
Very interesting.
"On the days right after" implies that this muffled cry was not on the the night of the 3rd, but on another night very soon after.
The resulting PJ search was "on Saturday, around half past midnight".
This indicates that the "muffled cry" was most likely heard at about midnight on the night of Saturday 5th.
It sounds to me like it was reported on the days...Right after These people dont like to involve the police and some would not know about Maddie until friday. The police were working full out on what they considered important and probably were late getting around that building to this lady. There was also an abandoned villa nearby...was there not?
Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.
"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.
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Yes Pegasus, I too believe that the Man who was dismissed by SC and the Smith sighting are innocent Dads, but not so sure that Jane didnt see the person responsible for Maddie's disappearance.
That would be a big insult to Mr R as it would imply he didn't bother to ask the innocent creche dad "did you ever walk east across that exact T-junction carrying your daughter?". To imagine that Mr R would fail to ask that patently obvious and absolutely necessary question seems unlikely IMO. But on the other hand I understand people find it odd that the exact junction is not mentioned in the SY announcement.
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That would be a big insult to Mr R as it would imply he didn't bother to ask the innocent creche dad "did you ever walk east across that exact T-junction carrying your daughter?". To imagine that Mr R would fail to ask that patently obvious and absolutely necessary question seems unlikely IMO. But on the other hand I understand people find it odd that the exact junction is not mentioned in the SY announcement.
I didnt say that it was crechman who was seen by the smiths. I think that the crechman who came forward and was dismissed as an abductor, may not have been the man that JT saw.
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It sounds to me like it was reported on the days...Right after These people dont like to involve the police and some would not know about Maddie until friday. The police were working full out on what they considered important and probably were late getting around that building to this lady. There was also an abandoned villa nearby...was there not?
Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.
"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.
The article does IMO indicate that the noise was heard somtime on the night of Sat 5th (not on the night of Thu 3rd). However I agree with your point that if the PJ checked the whole building then it might have taken a bit more than 30 minutes so it is possible the PJ arrived there earlier than midnight, and took more than 30mins to get as far as this lady's apartment at half past midnight, so yes it is possible the noise was heard a little earlier than midnight.
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I didnt say that it was crechman who was seen by the smiths. I think that the crechman who came forward and was dismissed as an abductor, may not have been the man that JT saw.
Yes that depends on whether or not Mr R showed his innocent crechedad a map and asked him the necessary question "did you walk across this exact T junction where JT saw a man with child". Unfortunatly the SY release does not state whether that essential exact geographical question was asked or not.
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Yes that depends on whether or not Mr R showed his innocent crechedad a map and asked him the necessary question "did you walk across this exact T junction where JT saw a man with child". Unfortunatly the SY release does not state whether that essential exact geographical question was asked or not.
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
He was going in the wrong direction to have been coming from the Creche. There are maps and all sorts where this would have been seen, so I cannot understand why they believe that it was a creche dad.
There is however a possibility that he had to go in the direction of 5A for some reason, before going home in the direction a man was seen by JT of course.
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The thing is though Sadie, the Google images showing the missing fence panels are dated August 2009 so we have no way of knowing what the fencing was like in May 2007. Also there is no way of knowing what cars were parked after dark in the area you refer to.
I have altered the map as per your post above.
(http://i.imgur.com/HUMKiw1.jpg)
Thank you John. That is a great deal better and although the bottom part is not quite as I describe it, I will not trouble you to change anything more. BTW, I regressed GE to the image dated 6/22/2007, which is only 8 weeks after Madeleine went. This image was photographed on a sunny day and there were strong shadows.
I used the strong shadows and zoomed right in. Most of the wasteland was fully enclosed by a high fence as indicated by the shadows, but the two places that I believe Smithman may have enterd and left the wasteland had no shadows, so NO fence in either place.
For anyone who is interested. You will see the road Rua Ema Vieira Alvernaz to the SW of the wasteland, well there is a fence gap there right by the "V" of that road name .... I thought it likely that he would have exited the wasteland there and gone straight across the road at the north side of the ?toilet block and thru the gap there.
Also likely partially hidden himself amongst the parked cars to the west of LuzTor as he passed by.
[LuzTor apartment block is the massive red roofed building in the lower middle of the image].
The Staff Quarters [Pedras Brancas Building] is the fairly large red roofed building partly cut off on the lower LH edge of the image and passed by the red route.
Incedenatally Matt Fazackerleys villa is immediately opposite the triangular green grassed area and immediately adjacent to the word "Martins" in the Rua Dr F Gentil Martins (middle - upper RH of image). The blue route goes past Fazackerleys back gate.
Apart from the very first bit of the route that had to go past homes, I tried to take Smithman down dark alleyways and never in front of houses or along roads unless hidden somewhat by parked cars. I think I suceeded.
Amarals route in red was my original route, but having seen how fenced in it is for substantial distances I wonder if Smithman would have preferred a route where he was not potentially trapped ... hence my alternative route.
I think either route could have been used. There are other alternatives but I think either Amarals red route or my recent blue route are the most likely
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A good hypothesis that would have him exiting the parking area at the small pathway as suggested by Sadie.
From that, is it your opinion he is a local or do you think he might be the crèche dad?
I endorse that, a good hpothesis Pegasus, the car parking and walking home is a distinct possibility.
..... but, Brietta, I doubt he is crechman. Too far off route for him and walking in completely the wrong direction.
In fact I think that the crech is exclusively for the children of OC guests?
The Smiths sightings are well to the west of Rua Primieira Maio.
And as far as I can find there are no OC properties west of Rua Primiera Maio[ the north - south main road ] ... so he couldn't have come from OC crech imo.
Pegasus' idea about his having parked his car and was walking home is a possibility tho.
But what sort of parent carrying his child [and emblazoned all over the media], would NOT have come forward to be ruled out in such a case? Surely with a little girl of his own, there would be some empathy and a wish to help ?
I am inclined to think that Smithman was the abductor, or an acomplice, and was carrying Madeleine
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I endorse that, a good hpothesis Pegasus, the car parking and walking home is a distinct possibility.
..... but, Brietta, I doubt he is crechman. Too far off route for him and walking in completely the wrong direction.
In fact I think that the crech is exclusively for the children of OC guests?
The Smiths sightings are well to the west of Rua Primieira Maio.
And as far as I can find there are no OC properties west of Rua Primiera Maio[ the north - south main road ] ... so he couldn't have come from OC crech imo.
Pegasus' idea about his having parked his car and was walking home is a possibility tho.
But what sort of parent carrying his child [and emblazoned all over the media], would NOT have come forward to be ruled out in such a case? Surely with a little girl of his own, there would be some empathy and a wish to help ?
I am inclined to think that Smithman was the abductor, or an acomplice, and was carrying Madeleine
I think you are correct that the crèche was exclusive to MW guests, Sadie, so he could not have been coming from there if there is no holiday accommodation in that location.
Pegasus’ idea is a fair possibility; if the abduction was planned I think there would have been a getaway vehicle parked in close proximity; if the original intention had been to burgle, I think the same would apply.
I still swing towards Jane’s sighting being the abductor as I am not too sure the language used by the DCI firmly ruled him out; but logic dictates that Smithman is a more probable culprit.
Pegasus’ idea about parking the vehicle is a good one because if he used a vehicle the child would not be visible to a casual viewer and it would be much safer than walking that distance carrying her.
In the off peak period he could have hoped to manage his journey without being seen, and that almost happened.
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My idea that smithman parked just north of the sighting then walked to home just south of sighting, is based on looking at aerial photos and seeing that parking is scarce just south of sighting, but plentiful just north of sighting.
For clarity, I am proposing this idea in the context of a completely innocent smithman.
It does not work for a smithman who is an abductor or concealor - it works only for an innocent smithman.
As for why he has not come forward, I already pointed out the high likelyhood he is a non-speaker of the foreign language english (this is why he did not respond to the friendly greeting made in that foreign language).
AFAIK no TV or newspaper or poster appeal has ever been made in portugal in portuguese language which states the sighting location and time and asks the man to come forward.
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The PJ when typing up mwseasonal employee statements in some cases did type actual local address and in other cases just typed the vague "in accomodation provided by employer" or the even vaguer "unknown". BTW now even these non-addresses are blanked out on the PDFs on the internet. However it can be worked out indirectly from statements that some (not all) lived here, the clue is the colours.
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My idea that smithman parked just north of the sighting then walked to home just south of sighting, is based on looking at aerial photos and seeing that parking is scarce just south of sighting, but plentiful just north of sighting.
For clarity, I am proposing this idea in the context of a completely innocent smithman.
It does not work for a smithman who is an abductor or concealor - it works only for an innocent smithman.
As for why he has not come forward, I already pointed out the high likelyhood he is a non-speaker of the foreign language english (this is why he did not respond to the friendly greeting made in that foreign language).
AFAIK no TV or newspaper or poster appeal has ever been made in portugal in portuguese language which states the sighting location and time and asks the man to come forward.
I think you made it clear in your original post that you referred to an innocent person, pegasus, I hope you don’t think that I was trying to misrepresent you.
It is a bit of a mystery why this person has not come forward; we had the same concerns about Tannerman, but it now appears he had come forward at the time and thought that was that.
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Tannerman is Crecheman. The yard are correct. Smithman is the wanted man.
JT Rog
4078 “If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?”
Reply “Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but. But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”.
4078 “And what colours?”
Reply “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.
4078 “Okay. And his build?”
Reply “Medium, well sort of just normal build. As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but. And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of. So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.
4078 “Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”
Reply “No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.
4078 “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
Reply “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.
4078 “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”
Reply “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”.
4078 “And later on did you think it was significant?”
Reply “It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight. As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NenUQ14lJ2E/Upj5uK4WryI/AAAAAAAABC8/FV_K9PhLqY4/s1600/madeleine-mccann-missing-4-577x500.jpg)
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But pathfinder do you ever look at other cases?
Is there even a single case which matches your scenario, in which transport was by unconcealed carrying in arms?
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But pathfinder do you ever look at other cases?
Is there even a single case which matches your scenario, in which transport was by unconcealed carrying in arms?
No I don't review other cases because every case is different. At home the man could use a car to quickly move her away. On holiday that option was not possible for an unforeseen event so he was seen carrying her quickly towards the beach/rocks where it's dark and safe from prying eyes. He knew a good safe spot there to temporarily hide her. If found a smelly fat man can take the rap! Then a before daylight move to the cliff face (5-6am). You have a few other options - bin, hole, garage etc. But with somebody looking shifty and possibly checking the cliff face days later this theory (one of mine) is worth investigating.
Could be temporarily hidden at 10:05 in this area - drain pipe on left nearly hidden. I would take the dogs to this area and sniff under every rock/hole/bush.
(http://duncansweb.com/images/gallery-2-large.jpg)
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Tannerman is Crecheman. The yard are correct. Smithman is the wanted man.
JT Rog
4078 “If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?”
Reply “Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but. But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”.
4078 “And what colours?”
Reply “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.
4078 “Okay. And his build?”
Reply “Medium, well sort of just normal build. As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but. And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of. So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.
4078 “Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”
Reply “No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.
4078 “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
Reply “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.
4078 “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”
Reply “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”.
4078 “And later on did you think it was significant?”
Reply “It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight. As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NenUQ14lJ2E/Upj5uK4WryI/AAAAAAAABC8/FV_K9PhLqY4/s1600/madeleine-mccann-missing-4-577x500.jpg)
She remembers everything!! haha I wonder if asked today if she recalls what day it was.
What is wrong with killers and abductors and general villans carrying a child in open streets? Two people apparently did that night, and not of them were 'challenged' Hmm sounds about right.
Little Jamie Bulger had experienced horrific torture during his abduction, his perpetrators showed no compassion or were seen to be acting strange' after the horrific death- they even tried to arrange an accident by train. THEY were children themselves not calculating, manipulative, adults!
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She remembers everything!! haha I wonder if asked today if she recalls what day it was.
What is wrong with killers and abductors and general villans carrying a child in open streets? Two people apparently did that night, and not of them were 'challenged' Hmm sounds about right.
Little Jamie Bulger had experienced horrific torture during his abduction, his perpetrators showed no compassion or were seen to be acting strange' after the horrific death- they even tried to arrange an accident by train. THEY were children themselves not calculating, manipulative, adults!
James Bulger was marched, dragged and beaten through the streets by his murderers; many people witnessed it and although concerned by the treatment being dished out to him by what they assumed were his elder brothers … did not intervene.
Why then should people in a holiday resort where it was common to see children being carried home by their fathers think there was anything amiss.
Only when hearing about Madeleine’s kidnap did Jane Tanner make the association.
It took the Smiths a bit longer than that to work out the implication of what they had seen.
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing.
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Residents, including some staff, went out and in of the Rua Escola Primeira main entrance of that building that evening. If Smithman did walk past the building that evening there would be a possibility that one of the people leaving or entering would see him.
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James Bulger was marched, dragged and beaten through the streets by his murderers; many people witnessed it and although concerned by the treatment being dished out to him by what they assumed were his elder brothers … did not intervene.
Why then should people in a holiday resort where it was common to see children being carried home by their fathers think there was anything amiss.
Only when hearing about Madeleine’s kidnap did Jane Tanner make the association.
It took the Smiths a bit longer than that to work out the implication of what they had seen.
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing.
Brilliant post.
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The child the Smiths saw was asleep, with eyes closed.
If the child they saw was being abducted, no way would it be asleep.
The smithman=abductor theory does not work.
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The child the Smiths saw was asleep, with eyes closed.
If the child they saw was being abducted, no way would it be asleep.
The smithman=abductor theory does not work.
It does if the child was drugged.
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It does if the child was drugged.
Administering a drug would explain the child being unconscious, and (possibly) the closed eyes.
But the smithman=abductor theory still doesn't work.
Because - A person who planned ahead well enough to obtain and take with him the appropriate drug, would also plan ahead and have a far better removal method than carrying uncovered in his arms through the streets.
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Administering a drug would explain the child being unconscious, and (possibly) the closed eyes.
But the smithman=abductor theory still doesn't work.
Because - A person who planned ahead well enough to obtain and take with him the appropriate drug, would also plan ahead and have a far better removal method than carrying uncovered in his arms through the streets.
Not necessarily. Chloroform is easy to obtain, or make from household products.
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Administering a drug would explain the child being unconscious, and (possibly) the closed eyes.
But the smithman=abductor theory still doesn't work.
Because - A person who planned ahead well enough to obtain and take with him the appropriate drug, would also plan ahead and have a far better removal method than carrying uncovered in his arms through the streets.
Smithman was carrying a dead child.
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Smithman was carrying a dead child.
You do not know that.
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Smithman was carrying a dead child.
and he did not conceal the eyes?
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Smithman is the prime suspect and they're not digging and using cadaver dogs for no reason.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/mar/21/corrections-and-clarifications
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The supposedly overheard "Why did you bring her here?" conversation was reportedly "several hundred yards from the Ocean Club in a residential area towards the seafront".
http://www.itv.com/news/central/update/2014-07-13/british-woman-tells-madeleine-police-she-overhead-man-saying-why-did-you-bring-her-here-now-well-have-to-dispose-of-the-body/
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The supposedly overheard "Why did you bring her here?" conversation was reportedly "several hundred yards from the Ocean Club in a residential area towards the seafront".
http://www.itv.com/news/central/update/2014-07-13/british-woman-tells-madeleine-police-she-overhead-man-saying-why-did-you-bring-her-here-now-well-have-to-dispose-of-the-body/
If that statement is true it probably relates to Malinka being interviewed again. He lived by the Smithman sighting.
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If that statement is true it probably relates to Malinka being interviewed again. He lived by the Smithman sighting.
One of the UK newspaper reports about the "why did you bring her here?" conversation did claim it was overheard outside that R 25 Abril address.
However I think that particular newspaper is mistaken on that location detail. And this conversation sounds like it is indoors not outdoors IMO.
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One of the UK newspaper reports about the "why did you bring her here?" conversation did claim it was overheard outside that R 25 Abril address.
However I think that particular newspaper is mistaken on that location detail. And this conversation sounds like it is indoors not outdoors IMO.
I suggest that the source of the report still has a major axe to grind with one SM. IMO.
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I suggest that the source of the report still has a major axe to grind with one SM. IMO.
I understand what you're saying, but IMO the "why did you ..." conversation is not connected to him and therefore it must have occured at some other location.
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I understand what you're saying, but IMO the "why did you ..." conversation is not connected to him and therefore it must have occured at some other location.
Which R d Abril address are you referring to? No. 14?
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Which R d Abril address are you referring to? No. 14?
I was referring to number 4. Only because a couple of newspaper reports (incorrectly IMO) placed the conversation outside that address. The arguido release makes it obvious IMO that it was not there.
You mentioned a different address, number 14, which is immediately nextdoor to clinic, and is mentioned in the files in two contexts IIRC.
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I was referring to number 4. Only because a couple of newspaper reports (incorrectly IMO) placed the conversation outside that address. The arguido release makes it obvious IMO that it was not there.
You mentioned a different address, number 14, which is immediately nextdoor to clinic, and is mentioned in the files in two contexts IIRC.
Thank you.
Wish I still had the copy of that "engineering works" application for Sr. Marreiros.....I'm sure it was no. 14 Rua 25 de Abril.......back in Dec. 2010.
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Thank you.
Wish I still had the copy of that "engineering works" application for Sr. Marreiros.....I'm sure it was no. 14 Rua 25 de Abril.......back in Dec. 2010.
If you look at the clinic, 14 is just left of it. Possibly multiple flats? I don't think it's of any relevance at all. In the files there are samples sent for testing listed with this address (although that might mean outside in the street I don't know). Also IMO this might be an address SH/KM/AC were meaning to contact as part of their investigation?
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If you look at the clinic, 14 is just left of it. Possibly multiple flats? I don't think it's of any relevance at all. In the files there are samples sent for testing listed with this address (although that might mean outside in the street I don't know). Also IMO this might be an address SH/KM/AC were meaning to contact as part of their investigation?
I am sorry to be a pest, but I dont know who you mean by SH/KM/AC. Could you please enighten me.
I am assuming that we are talking about the red and white Luz Doc clinic on the N.W. corner of R.d'Escola and R.25 Abril?
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I am sorry to be a pest, but I dont know who you mean by SH/KM/AC. Could you please enighten me.
I am assuming that we are talking about the red and white Luz Doc clinic on the N.W. corner of R.d'Escola and R.25 Abril?
1. S.Hubbard, K Mccann, A.Cowley, for example see http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/mccanns-pressure-and-harass-ocean-club.html , this was genuine investigation re the tapas bookings.
2. Yes that's right, the clinic is number 12.
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It was suggested at one time on here, that it could have been a burglary gone wrong or a car accident to maddie and that someone was trying to get her to medical help and then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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It was suggested at one time on here, that it could have been a burglary gone wrong or a car accident to maddie and that someone was trying to get her to help and then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
When seen by A.Smith, the man had already passed the clinic and crossed Rua 25 Abril.
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When seen by A.Smith, the man had already passed the clinic and crossed Rua 25 Abril.
I didnt say that it was the man in Smith sighting. I am not comvinced of smithman
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I didnt say that it was the man in Smith sighting. I am not convinced of smithman
Ok now I understand what you are saying.
But this particular premises is not open in the evenings/nights - if you need an emergency doctor in the evening/night you have to phone.
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Ok now I understand what you are saying.
But this particular premises is not open in the evenings/nights - if you need an emergency doctor in the evening/night you have to phone.
OK Thanks again. It would be open friday, sat and sun,
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OK Thanks again. It would be open friday, sat and sun,
However, in defence of your idea: a non-local might be aware it was there, but unaware it was shut at night, so might go anyway.
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1. S.Hubbard, K Mccann, A.Cowley, for example see http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/mccanns-pressure-and-harass-ocean-club.html , this was genuine investigation re the tapas bookings.
2. Yes that's right, the clinic is number 12.
Thanks Pegasus
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1. S.Hubbard, K Mccann, A.Cowley, for example see http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/mccanns-pressure-and-harass-ocean-club.html , this was genuine investigation re the tapas bookings.
2. Yes that's right, the clinic is number 12.
Voice Over: What she saw, what she knows, and what could have this employee of the Ocean Club said to raise such an interest by the McCanns? 'Francisca', a fictitious name, was persistently approached at the end of the last year by the ‘spearhead’ of the couple in Portugal. Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican Father [Haynes], in Praia da Luz, went various times to the tourist complex, to the house and even left notes in the mail box. She was determined to put her [the employee] in contact with Kate.
‘Francisca’ – She told me: ‘Kate wants to make contact with you, because she wants to make you questions, etc...’. And I said: ‘What questions? Because there’s a detail, at the time I was on my break. I had three days off, do you understand it?’ So, what I have seen, what I have not seen, who was there, who was not, I don’t know.
Voice Over: This witness might be key in the investigation, since she lives near to the church – the place where the former coordinator of the investigation suspects that Madeleine’s body passed through. The worker for the position she occupied, controlled a great part of the conversations and faces that appeared in Praia da Luz during the long months of the investigation. The insistency of Susan, so that ‘Francisca’ gave her personal email address arouse suspicions.
‘Francisca’ – She wanted to get in my ‘site’, to see who I was talking to or who I was in contact.
Voice Over: The contact with Kate happened a month later, via SMS. In the texted messages, Madeleine’s mother, warned that family members would go to Praia da Luz in the following days, and that she would be contacted personally. The approach was made, not by the mother nor by Gerry’s sister, but by Arthur Bailey [fictional name?], a detective hired by the family, who was once an inspector of the Scotland Yard.
‘Francisca’ – He made me some questions, what were my impressions, lots of things…
Journalist – And do you believe that they were suspecting that you…
‘Francisca’ – That I knew more than what I was saying.. That was my impression…
Journalist – …That you were working as an informer to someone?
‘Francisca’ – Exactly.
Voice Over: From the talks that she had with her colleagues ‘Francisca’ believes that she was the only Ocean Club employee target of the private detectives and of the couple. She doesn’t have doubts that Madeleine is dead and she hopes to explain why to Gonçalo Amaral, now that the former inspector is committed in reopening the process.
3 MAY 2009 | POSTED BY JOANA MORAIS
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KM/SH/AC were genuinely investigating the tapas bookings situation.
"Arthur Bailey" has the surname obfuscated only.
"Francisca" is obfuscated however it's easy enough to work out who that is from the following.
They actually contacted the wrong person, as "Francisca" was not even in PDL on the relevant dates.
The name of the person they were actually intending to contact is given in the video.
As I said IMO it was a genuine attempt by an innocent mum, with the help of a PDL friend and a UK PI, to get more info from an innocent employee about the tapas booking events in the relevant week.
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When seen by A.Smith, the man had already passed the clinic and crossed Rua 25 Abril.
Do we know for sure that he had crossed the road R. 25 Abril, cos it was not entirely clear from Aoifes statement imo.
We had a long and tortuous thread on this Pegasus. I am sorry but I cant remember the name of the thread.
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Was this it Sadie .. Probably wrong
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3519.msg181012#msg181012
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Going back to "SQ" - from statements it can be worked out that a quantity of uk staff lived in two or more shared apartments in a building "white and blue" and fairly close to Ocean Club, and the only buildings of that colour and big enough are IMO either this one, or Cristaluz.
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Was this it Sadie .. Probably wrong
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3519.msg181012#msg181012
Thanks for trying Anna, but that is not the one.
It was probably about 9 or 12 months ago, before you joined I think Anna.
We analysed a lot of stuff to do with what happened at the bottom of Rua D'Escola .... and decided that Smithman could have gone east or south. From Aiofes statement definitely NOT west at that junction.
I am inclined to think it more likely that he went south down the steps, but we just dont know. SY will have questioned Aoife, I guess, and they will know.
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Going back to "SQ" - from statements it can be worked out that a quantity of uk staff lived in two or more shared apartments in a building "white and blue" and fairly close to Ocean Club, and the only buildings of that colour and big enough are IMO either this one, or Cristaluz.
I am not saying that you are wrong Pegasus. I admire your detailed research, but someone on the 3A's siad that the "Pedras Brancas" building was the Staff Quarters. Maybe the other building, "Cristaluz", also had some O.C. staff resident?
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well at least I think I found that abandoned villa down the steps
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1390.msg38673#msg38673
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That building is probably two properties? (ETA sorry, Heri pointed this out earlier this thread)
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I am not saying that you are wrong Pegasus. I admire your detailed research, but someone on the 3A's siad that the "Pedras Brancas" building was the Staff Quarters. Maybe the other building, "Cristaluz", also had some O.C. staff resident?
BTW it is the block shown in grey to the northeast of block 5, in first map here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html
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That building is probably two properties? (ETA sorry, Heri pointed this out earlier this thread)
I agree Pegasus. I think the part that Anna shows is inhabited but the abandoned part is attached to it and it faces on to R.25 Abril just opposite LuzDocs and almost directly at the bottom of R. d'Escola. Trouble is that for Smithman to be going there he would have had to have turned west near Aoife ... and we earlier proved that he turned east or carried on going South down the steps.
Sorry, I dont know how to display it but once again Heriberto Janosches wonderful photos.
1) Three views of it . In the final photograph, you will see a blue road sign with a white triangle on it. That is where Aoife was and the steps go down at the point to the right.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1390.msg38673#msg38673
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 08:24:55 PM »
2) There is also a derelict property virtually adjoining Kellys bar in R, de Calhete
3) And another derelict property right opposite The Church
There are probably more derelict properties that I haven't identified.
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BTW it is the block shown in grey to the northeast of block 5, in first map here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html
Thanks. The block just across the road at the front but one block east, I guess.
Am tired. Shame, I like these late night sleuthing sessions
Nigh Night pegasus xx, Nigh Night Anna xx
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Thanks. The block just across the road at the front but one block east, I guess.
Am tired. Shame, I like these late night sleuthing sessions
Nigh Night pegasus xx, Nigh Night Anna xx
Yes, it is peaceful at this time of night. Nite, nite, Sadie.
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Yes, it is peaceful at this time of night. Nite, nite, Sadie.
Nigh Night Eleanor, Nigh Night Misty, Nigh Night all xx
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Nigh Night Eleanor, Nigh Night Misty, Nigh Night all xx
Night Sadie x
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Re SQ locations, "about 10 minutes on foot from ... place of work" indicates PBrancas (an estimated 7 minutes walk from main reception) is more likely than Cristaluz (much closer).
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Re SQ locations, "about 10 minutes on foot from ... place of work" indicates PBrancas (an estimated 7 minutes walk from main reception) is more likely than Cristaluz (much closer).
Who was that time referring to Pegasus? I make it 0.27 miles from S.Q. to Main Reception = 5 mins?
I agree that it was unlikely to be Cristaluz
Was the person maybe working at the Millenium Restaurant or somewhere there?
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Who was that time referring to Pegasus? I make it 0.27 miles from S.Q. to Main Reception = 5 mins?
I agree that it was unlikely to be Cristaluz
Was the person maybe working at the Millenium Restaurant or somewhere there?
I am measuring to Rua Direita main building, not Millenium. Including at one end time to go down stairs or lift, and at other end time to go up stairs, I am making it about 7 or 8 minutes.
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I am measuring to Rua Direita main building, not Millenium. Including at one end time to go down stairs or lift, and at other end time to go up stairs, I am making it about 7 or 8 minutes.
No stairs that I am aware of before SQ. You must have taken a different route
At average walking speed only 5 mins, I think, but people often are vague about times , so .....?
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No stairs that I am aware of before SQ. You must have taken a different route
At average walking speed only 5 mins, I think, but people often are vague about times , so .....?
After measuring the time taken to walk from outside one building to outside another building I add more time to go down internal stairs at one end and go up internal stairs at other end.
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After measuring the time taken to walk from outside one building to outside another building I add more time to go down internal stairs at one end and go up internal stairs at other end.
ORLY ? How many flights?
Do you know that happened?
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It is nothing to do with what happened, we are simply debating about measuring distances.
Like Mr Brunt measuring the distance from the table to the children, he did not measure the whole distance at all, he only measured as far as the pavement outside a gate, where certainly there were no children sleeping, and he left out the essential 25 further paces through gate and up steps and through lounge and diner to get to the children.
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It is nothing to do with what happened, we are simply debating about measuring distances.
Like Mr Brunt measuring the distance from the table to the children, he did not measure the whole distance at all, he only measured as far as the pavement outside a gate, where certainly there were no children sleeping, and he left out the essential 25 further paces through gate and up steps and through lounge and diner to get to the children.
That's valid, so long as he makes it clear what he is measuring.
But do we know that steps were climbed and walked down? Was reception upstairs? I find that unusual cos suitcases are often taken to reception and it is usually at ground level, right close to the entrance to the hotel
Personally I find it better to talk one entrance to the other, becuse that is kind of the datum .. a standard.
Forgive me for being so picky, Pegasus, but it is my engineering background. We always had a good solid datum that was definite (in this case , door to door) ... and worked on from that.
I dont know if there were any steps involved, do you?
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That's valid, so long as he makes it clear what he is measuring.
But do we know that steps were climbed and walked down? Was reception upstairs? I find that unusual cos suitcases are often taken to reception and it is usually at ground level, right close to the entrance to the hotel
Personally I find it better to talk one entrance to the other, becuse that is kind of the datum .. a standard.
Forgive me for being so picky, Pegasus, but it is my engineering background. We always had a good solid datum that was definite (in this case , door to door) ... and worked on from that.
I dont know if there were any steps involved, do you?
If smithman was an innocent dad and daughter (as I think) I already said one possibility is he had parked in that parking area just north of the sighting and was just walking from his vehicle to his home and if so it can be deduced that parking closer to his home is scarce. But another of the possibilities is this innocent dad and daughter might have been visiting friends/relatives in this building which is just north of the sighting, which has many apartments and 7 floors so it does have stairs and lifts.
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If smithman was an innocent dad and daughter (as I think) I already said one possibility is he had parked in that parking area just north of the sighting and was just walking from his vehicle to his home and if so it can be deduced that parking closer to his home is scarce. But another of the possibilities is this innocent dad and daughter might have been visiting friends/relatives in this building which is just north of the sighting, which has many apartments and 7 floors so it does have stairs and lifts.
I think the efits are an indicator that Smithman was up to no good
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5256.msg189297#new
Re: The Smith sighting revisited.
« Reply #134 on: Today at 12:17:53 AM »
The RH image was produced of a man who was so avoiding his face being seen, that his chin was thrust down into the folds of his neck. That is not normal. He was hiding something. imo.
Before, I was happy to go along with your parking theory, but based upon an analysis of the way he was holding his head to hide his face, I now think that he was carrying Madeleine
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I think the efits are an indicator that Smithman was up to no good
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5256.msg189297#new
Re: The Smith sighting revisited.
« Reply #134 on: Today at 12:17:53 AM »
The RH image was produced of a man who was so avoiding his face being seen, that his chin was thrust down into the folds of his neck. That is not normal. He was hiding something. imo.
Before, I was happy to go along with your parking theory, but based upon an analysis of the way he was holding his head to hide his face, I now think that he was carrying Madeleine
If you do efits of two men, one of whom has a much broader chin than the other, chances are one of the efits will have a broader chin than the other.
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If you do efits of two men, one of whom has a much broader chin than the other, chances are one of the efits will have a broader chin than the other.
The whole face is foreshortened Pegasus. Can you not see that? It is foreshortened because he has his face inclined down as far as he vcan push it ... right into the folds of his neck and chest.
They haven't actually given him a chin. Maybe it was so indistinct that they decided to do the equivalent of an egg face with his chin ... just leave it unclear where the chin actually was?
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This building is mentioned only once in the files by name (Processos vol 4 page 868-9) but more times without name.
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This is a very interesting thread. I spent an hour reading it in detail. I somehow don't agree with the routes suggested.
I would use the GNR dogs route and a car parked right next to small OC reception where the dogs lost the trail.
The same person might have ended up seen by the Smiths and why is that? This would be a real mystery as with anything else in this case.
I keep thinking that something happen there what is not logical and not expected and this is why this case has taken too long to solve.
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This is a very interesting thread. I spent an hour reading it in detail. I somehow don't agree with the routes suggested.
I would use the GNR dogs route and a car parked right next to small OC reception where the dogs lost the trail.
The same person might have ended up seen by the Smiths and why is that? This would be a real mystery as with anything else in this case.
I keep thinking that something happen there what is not logical and not expected and this is why this case has taken too long to solve.
It is quite logical if you accept that the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor.. And there is no reason to suppose that he wasn't. Unless anyone can explain why this other man was coming from entirely the wrong direction.
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It is quite logical if you accept that the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor.. And there is no reason to suppose that he wasn't. Unless anyone can explain why this other man was coming from entirely the wrong direction.
So you don't believe Redwood when he says he's 'almost certain' the man Tanner saw wasn't the abductee ?
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So you don't believe Redwood when he says he's 'almost certain' the man Tanner saw wasn't the abductee ?
I think we can be pretty certain the man Jane Tanner saw wasn't abducted, no
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I think we can be pretty certain the man Jane Tanner saw wasn't abducted, no
Maybe some folk just have a difficulty with the word 'abductor'.
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Maybe some folk just have a difficulty with the word 'abductor'.
Nah! it's a geezer or geezeress who sells tickets on public transport. Or something you strap to a tall building to protect it from................
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It is quite logical if you accept that the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor.. And there is no reason to suppose that he wasn't. Unless anyone can explain why this other man was coming from entirely the wrong direction.
To me the only lead that is there might be the one of the GNR dogs.
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This is a big building with probably about 40 apartments so there are going to be people going in and out its entrance directly on Rua Escola Primeira frequently in the evenings (for example at about 10.30pm a group of employees headed out socially from here).
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Just noticed this on an Alpha Investigations whiteboard
"9.50pm (blanked witness name) sights UK male carrying a child"
Is this the Smith sighting? If so it is interesting that Alpha decided that it was a "UK male".
Or is it a different sighting?
ETA or does it say "U/K" meaning "UnKnown"?
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Just noticed this on an Alpha Investigations whiteboard
"9.50pm (blanked witness name) sights UK male carrying a child"
Is this the Smith sighting? If so it is interesting that Alpha decided that it was a "UK male".
Or is it a different sighting?
ETA or does it say "U/K" meaning "UnKnown"?
It is difficult to see without magnification, but it looks like U/K as in unknown. Still don't know, who witnessed this though at 9.50pm
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It is difficult to see without magnification, but it looks like U/K as in unknown. Still don't know, who witnessed this though at 9.50pm
Thanks. Here is the whiteboard http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LeG4PZ2ATdA/T2NY4qJIynI/AAAAAAAACmk/Y4_VWnELSnI/s400/mock+timeline1.bmp
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Thanks. Here is the whiteboard http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LeG4PZ2ATdA/T2NY4qJIynI/AAAAAAAACmk/Y4_VWnELSnI/s400/mock+timeline1.bmp
Thank you Pegasus.
Yes, I would say that is U/K= unknown. The same as JT sighting.. U/K, earlier in the evening.
They have the sighting, which is likely to be the Smith sighting, at 9.50pm.
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Thank you Pegasus.
Yes, I would say that is U/K= unknown. The same as JT sighting.. U/K, earlier in the evening.
They have the sighting, which is likely to be the Smith sighting, at 9.50pm.
Ok agreed on U/K=unknown, and 9.50pm = Alpha time for Smith sighting.
(Seems Alpha did not refer to the restaurant card transaction at 21:27, nor the Kelly till records after that, which make 9.50pm impossible IMO)
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Ok agreed on U/K=unknown, and 9.50pm = Alpha time for Smith sighting.
(Seems Alpha did not refer to the restaurant card transaction at 21:27, nor the Kelly till records after that, which make 9.50pm impossible IMO)
What is the proof that Kelly's till record for 3rd has anything at all to do with the party of nine?
Unsurprisingly, by the time staff were asked they could not remember serving them.
Did the Smiths have a receipt which tallied with the till roll?
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What is the proof that Kelly's till record for 3rd has anything at all to do with the party of nine?
Unsurprisingly, by the time staff were asked they could not remember serving them.
Did the Smiths have a receipt which tallied with the till roll?
You are correct Brietta. It is a bit confusing(to say the least) trying to work it out.
The till roll is on link below, but I don't know if a receipt was kept by the Smith family.
They would probably pay on collecting the drinks, so about 10 min minimum to drink each round IMO.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
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You are correct Brietta. It is a bit confusing(to say the least) trying to work it out.
The till roll is on link below, but I don't know if a receipt was kept by the Smith family.
They would probably pay on collecting the drinks, so about 10 min minimum to drink each round IMO.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
If there were other customers in the bar there is no way to tell which payment was made by whom ... therefore if the Smiths do not have a matching receipt ... there is no corroboration that the till roll has any connection to them at all.
The restaurant was paid with a card which is easily verifiable ... paying by cash leaves no trace, unless a receipt is kept.
IMO the till roll tells us nothing.
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That 9.50pm on the whiteboard is rubbish.
Because no way did a group of 9 people including young kids manage to leave a restaurant (that alone can easily take 10 minutes), walk to a bar, get served several drinks, drink them, leave the bar (again easily 10 minutes just for that) and walk partway home, all in less than 23 minutes total, it's ridiculous.
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That 9.50pm on the whiteboard is rubbish.
Because no way did a group of 9 people including young kids manage to leave a restaurant (that alone can easily take 10 minutes), walk to a bar, get served several drinks, drink them, leave the bar (again easily 10 minutes just for that) and walk partway home, all in less than 23 minutes total, it's ridiculous.
I think the fly in the ointment may be the visit to the bar for which there is no tangible proof.
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I think the fly in the ointment may be the visit to the bar for which there is no tangible proof.
The fact that these witnesses did have drinks in Kelly bar simply puts the Smith sighting at about 10.10 - 10.15pm IMO. GM was definitely not wearing white trousers therefore cannot possibly be the man the Smith party saw. Identification by carrying style is rubbish (see Alvor statements).
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The fact that these witnesses did have drinks in Kelly bar simply puts the Smith sighting at about 10.10 - 10.15pm IMO. GM was definitely not wearing white trousers therefore cannot possibly be the man the Smith party saw. Identification by carrying style is rubbish (see Alvor statements).
Agreed that the man allegedly seen by the Smiths was not Madeleine's father.
There is no independent corroboration that the Smiths drank in Kelly's bar on the 3rd ... IMO the till roll tells us nothing apart from the fact drinks were bought and paid for ... it does not tell us by whom.
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Agreed that the man allegedly seen by the Smiths was not Madeleine's father.
There is no independent corroboration that the Smiths drank in Kelly's bar on the 3rd ... IMO the till roll tells us nothing apart from the fact drinks were bought and paid for ... it does not tell us by whom.
Its obvious the witnesses are not lying, they said they went in Kelly bar, therefore they did.
The only possible reason to argue they didn't would be to avoid having the Smith sighting after 10pm (for example at 10.10pm). But there is no need to avoid the Smith sighting being at 10.10pm. The white trousers already prove that the airplane steps identification in Sept by MS is absolutely wrong, so no further alibi is needed, even if the sighting was significantly after 10pm, makes no difference, white is white, the id was incorrect
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Its obvious the witnesses are not lying, they said they went in Kelly bar, therefore they did.
The only possible reason to argue they didn't would be to avoid having the Smith sighting after 10pm (for example at 10.10pm). But there is no need to avoid the Smith sighting being at 10.10pm. The white trousers already prove that the airplane steps identification in Sept by MS is absolutely wrong, so no further alibi is needed, even if the sighting was significantly after 10pm, makes no difference, white is white, the id was incorrect
I must take issue with your first sentence.
Making a statement unfortunately does not mean that statement is true.
People do lie.
People do make mistakes.
The fact is, that apart from their statement, there is nothing to prove that the Smiths drank in Kelly's Bar on the 3rd May.
I have never needed to be convinced that the airplane steps identification was wrong. Comparison with the McCluskey statement, which predated it, encouraged me to look with greater clarity at what the Smiths said.
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I must take issue with your first sentence.
Making a statement unfortunately does not mean that statement is true.
People do lie.
People do make mistakes.
The fact is, that apart from their statement, there is nothing to prove that the Smiths drank in Kelly's Bar on the 3rd May.
I have never needed to be convinced that the airplane steps identification was wrong. Comparison with the McCluskey statement, which predated it, encouraged me to look with greater clarity at what the Smiths said.
Ok so lets assume that the Irish group did not go to Kelly bar, and that after their meal they went at 9.30pm to the small beach for a quick paddle. There is no proof they didn't is there? So that would make the Smith sighting about 10.30pm ?
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Ok so lets assume that the Irish group did not go to Kelly bar, and that after their meal they went at 9.30pm to the small beach for a quick paddle. There is no proof they didn't is there? So that would make the Smith sighting about 10.30pm ?
They didn't claim that they had gone for a paddle.
Unfortunately CCTV from their hotel was scrubbed.
If it hadn't been there would have been a record of when they returned to the hotel. Which would have enabled a more accurate timeline of when they may have had their encounter.
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Smith sighting was 10:03 the alibi time. An exact time you won't forget!
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Smith sighting was 10:03 the alibi time. An exact time you won't forget!
But pathfinder IIRC you calculated your superexact time from a time stated by a source you do not trust.
IMO your proposed method is incorrect and your proposed time is at least an hour out.
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SY can calculate it using their mobile phone data, something not available to us.
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SY can calculate it using their mobile phone data, something not available to us.
Which one of those currently being questioned resembles the description of Smithman?
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But pathfinder IIRC you calculated your superexact time from a time stated by a source you do not trust.
IMO your proposed method is incorrect and your proposed time is at least an hour out.
My theory connects. Aoife left Kelly's Bar at 10pm - she said she knew the time in her statement. This connects to 10:03 sighting time. Eddie's weaker flower bed scent alert connects to a body being in the flower bed for a short time i.e. somebody coming up the road. Smithman connects to going in the direction of the beach/rocks.
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What I don't understand is why Brietta thinks the Smith family would lie about being in Kelly's bar.
We are told by the faithful that it is ludicrous to suppose all the McCann's friends lied about the night of the 3rd yet are asked to believe that the whole Smith family, who were in no way involved, did. Of course we are never told why they would do this but I suspect that over the hours and days ahead it will be insinuated, subtlety, by the usual suspects that the Smith family came forward, of course stressing through out how long it took them to come forward, merely to give Robert Murat an alibi.
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My theory connects. Aoife left Kelly's Bar at 10pm - she said she knew the time in her statement. This connects to 10:03 sighting time. Eddie's weaker flower bed scent alert connects to a body being in the flower bed for a short time i.e. somebody coming up the road. Smithman connects to going in the direction of the beach/rocks.
... and we place our faith in the timings of a child "not absolutely certain of the day" she left Portugal after her holiday.
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What I don't understand is why Brietta thinks the Smith family would lie about being in Kelly's bar.
We are told by the faithful that it is ludicrous to suppose all the McCann's friends lied about the night of the 3rd yet are asked to believe that the whole Smith family, who were in no way involved, did. Of course we are never told why they would do this but I suspect that over the hours and days ahead it will be insinuated, subtlety, by the usual suspects that the Smith family came forward, of course stressing through out how long it took them to come forward, merely to give Robert Murat an alibi.
Yes, it is certainly intriguing as to why people try to rubbish the Smith sighting - its not as if they fingered Gerry or anyone else, is it. Now that Tannerman is accounted, Smithman becomes the only one to identify.
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... and we place our faith in the timings of a child "not absolutely certain of the day" she left Portugal after her holiday.
And that is our starter for 10 !
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... and we place our faith in the timings of a child "not absolutely certain of the day" she left Portugal after her holiday.
So what? She remembered that 10pm time and was correct on leaving Dolphin restaurant at 9:30. Receipt was 9:27. Martin and Peter thought they left at 9pm so the little 12 year old was spot on!
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So what? She remembered that 10pm time and was correct on leaving Dolphin restaurant at 9:30. Receipt was 9:27. Martin and Peter thought they left at 9pm so the little 12 year old was spot on!
... so it appears she just has some difficulty remembering what day it is ... oh well then.
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... so it appears she just has some difficulty remembering what day it is ... oh well then.
Nobody's perfect. You think everyone can remember everything. Get in the real world.
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... so it appears she just has some difficulty remembering what day it is ... oh well then.
Or indeed what door you entered the apartment just the day before.
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Or when the kids played tennis
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Or when the kids played tennis
Indeed jassi.
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Or..... where you were seated at the tapas bar.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1384.msg39729#msg39729
..&.. this...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1126.msg31582#msg31582
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We appear to be going Off topic. Please try to adhere to thread Topic. I know it can be difficult.
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If he had walked past this building chances are staff or others going out or in might have seen him.
IMO man was innocent dad who parked few metres north of sighting (I can show you the parking area) and then carrying daughter home slightly south of sighting with parking short.
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If he had walked past this building chances are staff or others going out or in might have seen him.
IMO man was innocent dad who parked few metres north of sighting (I can show you the parking area) and then carrying daughter home slightly south of sighting with parking short.
I don't believe that anyone (IIRC) living at PBB, sighted the man though.
I do however agree that there is a fair possibility, that it was an innocent Dad that was sighted by the Smith Family.
Something nobody knows yet, as the person in question, has not yet been allocated.
We will have to wait and see what has been found, when the investigation is over.
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If he had walked past this building chances are staff or others going out or in might have seen him.
IMO man was innocent dad who parked few metres north of sighting (I can show you the parking area) and then carrying daughter home slightly south of sighting with parking short.
That man was in a hurry to get home wasn't he? Maybe you haven't seen the lookalike efit that was hidden carrying a Maddy lookalike. Even when the truth is staring you in the face you can't see it. Is it too simple for your overcomplicated theories Peggy? The dogs and the Smiths tut tut. The Smiths - what about the long sleeved top? Don't worry I will get rid of it.
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That man was in a hurry to get home wasn't he? Maybe you haven't seen the lookalike efit that was hidden carrying a Maddy lookalike. Even when the truth is staring you in the face you can't see it. Is it too simple for your overcomplicated theories Peggy? The dogs and the Smiths tut tut. The Smiths - what about the long sleeved top? Don't worry I will get rid of it.
'That man was in a hurry to get home wasn't he?'
LOL
Ignorant b....r n'all weren't he.
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A brief look at other cases reveals that basing a whole investigation on one supposed sighting is foolish. One case recently was seriously delayed because police based searches and investigation on a reported sighting supposedly of missing person. It wasn't, it wasted days, and solution was in opposite direction. In the PDL investigation it's many years spent obsessed exclusively with two sightings, both with low probability of being the missing person and probably irrelevant IMO.
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A brief look at other cases reveals that basing a whole investigation on one supposed sighting is foolish. One case recently was seriously delayed because police based searches and investigation on a reported sighting supposedly of missing person. It wasn't, it wasted days, and solution was in opposite direction. In the PDL investigation it's many years spent obsessed exclusively with two sightings, both with low probability of being the missing person and probably irrelevant IMO.
Usually people make reports in good faith.
Imagine how you would feel if you witnessed something which you dismissed and failed to report; I have listened to people who will be traumatised for life because they failed to intervene or report their concerns when James Bulger was being led to his death.
On the other hand ... confusion and taking the eye of investigators off the ball ... might have been the name of the game.
It is possible decoy sightings could even have been used to deflect attention from the abductor's real route.
The PJ apparently took Jane Tanner's sighting very seriously and devoted a lot of time to working out a proposed route or destination: perhaps they were getting too close to finding that for the peace of mind of some people.
I hadn't heard of this one ... but it certainly would take resources away from the direction taken by the man seen by Jane Tanner ... and infer an alibi for a suspect.
'I SAW THE KIDNAPPER TAKE HER'
Saturday July 21,2007
David Pilditch in Praia da Luz
***snip
POLICE have uncovered details of the escape route taken by missing Madeleine McCann’s abductor, it was revealed yesterday.
The sensational new development came at the end of a week of intense activity in which police sources said the 78-day-old investigation had reached “a critical stage”.
A new witness has reported seeing a man rushing past the tiny Nossa Senhora church in Praia da Luz towards the seafront at around 9.30pm on May 3, just after Madeleine was snatched from her bed at the Ocean Club resort.
The sighting – which police sources say is “significant” – backs the testimony of a friend of Madeleine’s parents, Jane Tanner, 36.
She had previously told Portuguese police that she saw a man rushing away from the complex carrying a small child wrapped in a blanket at around 9.30pm.
***snip
A police source said yesterday: “This information is being taken seriously and is potentially very significant.
“The man was seen rushing from the direction of the complex where the family were staying. He was heading down the hill towards the beach.”
The route the man took goes past a supermarket 100 yards from the McCanns’ apartment and on towards the church and beach.
It’s believed the new witness, thought to be a Portuguese local, is one of a number of people who were interviewed by detectives last week.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post3146.html#p3146
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To go towards the church, Smithman had to turn left at the car (go east). To go towards the beach Smithman had to go straight on at the car, down a flight of steps (go south)
From things said in Aoifies statement, We have already ruled out the likelyhood of him turning right (west)
The short route to the MAIN beach is to the left, possibly past the church, though that would have been dumb. Still left, this time on another back route, and still dumb, because of the roadworks at the time.
Forget the beach. It turns up in the chapter headline of chapter 8 of Gonçalo Amarals book, A Man Heading to the Beach. There is NO mention of the beach (other than the headline) in that chapter.
Aoife is clear. She did NOT see where the man headed after sighting him.
From her sighting, it is likely, but far from proved, that the following happened.
He went south. Probably, from his path, but not certainly as Aoife did not see him do this.
To the beach? All he has to get past going south is - the Dolphin, Fernando's, Kellys and the Bull, plus the ones on the shorter East route to the beach.
The 24 hour ATM machine. The Luz Tavern. The 7/11 convenience store.
Then, if he takes the dumb route to the beach, he has to get past the Fortaleza plus the other 4 restaurants and the car park south of the church.
While, whether he takes the dumb route or the smart route, he has to get past O Poço and the Carlos Bar.
That's before he gets to the beach, which is overlooked by several establishments that were open and active at the time.
Then he has to bury Madeleine without having any sort of digging tool that the Smiths can see.
The searches started early, and it seems everyone thought the beach was a great place to look. The beach was overlooked and there was no time to hide a body, plus it does for many other reasons.
Madeleine did not go into the beach.
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@ShiningInLuz If you look at his path across the junction it is obvious he was intending to go down Travessa das Escadinhas. Therefore if was going to a beach it would be the small beach not the main beach. Travessa das Escadhinas then at end right on onto Rua Calheta then either of two lefts to shore. Or Travessa das Escadhinas then first right Rua Salg then at end left to shore. (BTW latter route avoids being seen by peeps at dolphin and at bar just north of it)
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Was there a boat house or similar where a body could be hidden? I am thinking of Miss Pennington´s statement about the guy on a boat on Sat 5th of May.
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Was there a boat house or similar where a body could be hidden? I am thinking of Miss Pennington´s statement about the guy on a boat on Sat 5th of May.
http://www.paraisodaluz.com/
Have a look at photo no. 37, the white building on the right behind the wooden hut (which I believe is the Watersports Hut). IMO that may well be one storage place.
It's unclear where Charlotte would have been standing to have such a good view of the man by moonlight and watching him row away at low tide.
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Was there a boat house or similar where a body could be hidden? I am thinking of Miss Pennington´s statement about the guy on a boat on Sat 5th of May.
Cite is requested to clarify what Pennington statement you are referring to please
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Cite is requested to clarify what Pennington statement you are referring to please
It's in news reports Sept. 2007, Rob.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-boatman-spotted-kicking-something-in-the-middle-of-the-night-7296757.html
*snipped*
mystery boatman was seen kicking at something in the middle of the night two days after Madeleine McCann disappeared, detectives have been told.
Former Mark Warner nanny Charlotte Pennington said she spotted the man in a small dinghy just off the Praia da Luz seafront at 11.30pm. She claims he was kicking at an object stored in the boat's hull.
When she moved closer to investigate, the man - whose name she has given to Portuguese and British police - stooped out of sight then hurriedly rowed away.
Portuguese police are taking the sightings seriously and Miss Pennington, 20, has twice spoken to Leicestershire detectives about her evidence.
She was working in the Ocean Club's creche on May 3, the night Madeleine disappeared. She is the only person to have given a full, public description of the events of that evening.
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Thanks Misty.
"When she moved closer to investigate, the man - whose name she has given to Portuguese and British police so it appears she knew the man's name. No doubt he has been spoken to and the issue cleared up as is second nature to the police.
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Thanks Misty.
"When she moved closer to investigate, the man - whose name she has given to Portuguese and British police so it appears she knew the man's name. No doubt he has been spoken to and the issue cleared up as is second nature to the police.
I'm sure it was dealt with as efficiently as CP's report of seeing RM in the vicinity of 5A on the night of May 3rd and also Dr Totman's belief he was Tannerman..... *&^^&
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I'm sure it was dealt with as efficiently as CP's report of seeing RM in the vicinity of 5A on the night of May 3rd and also Dr Totman's belief he was Tannerman..... *&^^&
CP saw so much and told the PJ none of it in her statement on 7th May. Had she forgotten it all?
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CP saw so much and told the PJ none of it in her statement on 7th May. Had she forgotten it all?
Misty could we use full names for the benefit of the forgetful like me Who is CP?
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Misty could we use full names for the benefit of the forgetful like me Who is CP?
I agree. I am getting really fed up with Initials. I don't know who anyone is talking about most of the time.
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First, thank you Misty for your reply. Yes, I am sorry for quoting something said to the press rather than from the files. I had forgotten that.
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First, thank you Misty for your reply. Yes, I am sorry for quoting something said to the press rather than from the files. I had forgotten that.
You can be forgiven for that,seeing so much came from the press one would think they were the lead investigators.
Mostly nonsense Rowley said .
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First, thank you Misty for your reply. Yes, I am sorry for quoting something said to the press rather than from the files. I had forgotten that.
Miss Pennington and a few others have shown an interest in communicating with the media rather than the authorities. I have quoted her myself, but only ironically. I have as much faith in her sighting as I do in her claim that the twins weren't in the bedroom shortly after the alarm was raised.
Your point about beach hiding places was worth mentioning though.
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Misty could we use full names for the benefit of the forgetful like me Who is CP?
Charlotte Pennington CP how forgetful of me.
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I know lots of people dismiss the indications from the dogs completely and I understand why but I just have a nagging feeling about the clothes in that bag taken from the villa. Did young Sean come into contact with someone who had been in contact with a cadaver and his shorts contaminated the clothes of Mrs Mc Cann? You can imagine why I would be interested in a man typically Anglo but with sun exposure seen near beach on night of disappearance. The cops interviewed a gardener at length. I could see that, ok. What about sailors? They are windswept types and various FBI people said it might pay to look at people who had even minimal contact with Madeleine during the week. What would we know, anyhow, compared to two police forces..........?? A tragic case that will probably not be resolved without a confession
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How did I come to my conclusion about Sean´s clothes' ? Well, the dog did not alert to any other flat belonging to the Tapas friends nor to anything in the flat the Mc Cann family were moved to. So, if the alert on Mrs Mc Cann´s trousers was a good alert why did it not show up if she sat down in her new flat wearing those trousers? Nothing belonging to Gerald nor Amelie. My conclusion was it was transfer from Sean´s clothes in that pile seen in the video on top of a low cupboard type thing.........................of course it would not be the first time I have been wrong but a very open mind is needed on this case. Who knew or could find out about the open patio doors....???? Ok, a wandering psycho could just happen across this situation but how many little girls disappear on hols?? It would be a huge coincidence that a nutter trying doors just got lucky [ not impossible, I know]
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How did I come to my conclusion about Sean´s clothes' ? Well, the dog did not alert to any other flat belonging to the Tapas friends nor to anything in the flat the Mc Cann family were moved to. So, if the alert on Mrs Mc Cann´s trousers was a good alert why did it not show up if she sat down in her new flat wearing those trousers? Nothing belonging to Gerald nor Amelie. My conclusion was it was transfer from Sean´s clothes in that pile seen in the video on top of a low cupboard type thing.........................of course it would not be the first time I have been wrong but a very open mind is needed on this case. Who knew or could find out about the open patio doors....???? Ok, a wandering psycho could just happen across this situation but how many little girls disappear on hols?? It would be a huge coincidence that a nutter trying doors just got lucky [ not impossible, I know]
You don't seem to be taking into account Goncalo Amaral's theory of moving the body. What Kate or whoever moved it, were wearing then would be more important than what Kate was wearing on the night of the 3rd.
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I dismissed all that as a wrong turn by the police as soon as the files were made public and I went through them. Am I wrong? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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How did I come to my conclusion about Sean´s clothes' ? Well, the dog did not alert to any other flat belonging to the Tapas friends nor to anything in the flat the Mc Cann family were moved to. So, if the alert on Mrs Mc Cann´s trousers was a good alert why did it not show up if she sat down in her new flat wearing those trousers? Nothing belonging to Gerald nor Amelie. My conclusion was it was transfer from Sean´s clothes in that pile seen in the video on top of a low cupboard type thing.........................of course it would not be the first time I have been wrong but a very open mind is needed on this case. Who knew or could find out about the open patio doors....???? Ok, a wandering psycho could just happen across this situation but how many little girls disappear on hols?? It would be a huge coincidence that a nutter trying doors just got lucky [ not impossible, I know]
Anyone observing/hearing the McCanns exit/enter via the patio doors would know 5A was unlocked since the doors can't be locked externally. This of course would not rule out the possibility an adult had entered earlier via the patio doors or front door and was inside the apartment whilst the McCanns were at tapas. Any would be intruder would also need to be mindful of the fact the McCanns may have had a baby monitor in place.
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Anyone observing/hearing the McCanns exit/enter via the patio doors would know 5A was unlocked since the doors can't be unlocked internally. This of course would not rule out the possibility an adult had entered earlier via the patio doors or front door and was inside the apartment whilst the McCanns were at tapas. Any would be intruder would also need to be mindful of the fact the McCanns may have had a baby monitor in place.
How fast can you run, Holly?
I'm getting slower as I get older. But if you started at the Tapas restaurant and I started at 5A, I reckon I would make good my escape.
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How fast can you run, Holly?
I'm getting slower as I get older. But if you started at the Tapas restaurant and I started at 5A, I reckon I would make good my escape.
I need to be careful what I say here otherwise I might inadvertently give away my theory and suspect(s) but imo the whole case can be unraveled by the following:
Anyone observing/hearing the McCanns exit/enter via the patio doors would know 5A was unlocked since the doors can't be locked externally. This of course would not rule out the possibility an adult had entered earlier via the patio doors or front door and was inside the apartment whilst the McCanns were at tapas. Any would be intruder would also need to be mindful of the fact the McCanns may have had a baby monitor in place.
Work it our for yourselves guys n gals 8((()*/
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Hi Holly Goodhead, do you think Smithman was the abductor?
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I need to be careful what I say here otherwise I might inadvertently give away my theory and suspect(s) but imo the whole case can be unraveled by the following:
Anyone observing/hearing the McCanns exit/enter via the patio doors would know 5A was unlocked since the doors can't be locked externally. This of course would not rule out the possibility an adult had entered earlier via the patio doors or front door and was inside the apartment whilst the McCanns were at tapas. Any would be intruder would also need to be mindful of the fact the McCanns may have had a baby monitor in place.
Work it our for yourselves guys n gals 8((()*/
You don't think it could have been Mrs Penn upstairs?
Well from that you say, the people who knew all that was indeed the T9.
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How fast can you run, Holly?
I'm getting slower as I get older. But if you started at the Tapas restaurant and I started at 5A, I reckon I would make good my escape.
But only if you were starting off at the same time not a minute after her.
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I know lots of people dismiss the indications from the dogs completely and I understand why but I just have a nagging feeling about the clothes in that bag taken from the villa. Did young Sean come into contact with someone who had been in contact with a cadaver and his shorts contaminated the clothes of Mrs Mc Cann? You can imagine why I would be interested in a man typically Anglo but with sun exposure seen near beach on night of disappearance. The cops interviewed a gardener at length. I could see that, ok. What about sailors? They are windswept types and various FBI people said it might pay to look at people who had even minimal contact with Madeleine during the week. What would we know, anyhow, compared to two police forces..........?? A tragic case that will probably not be resolved without a confession
How are you correlating the alleged contamination of Sean's clothing with the actions of a seafaring stranger removing Madeleine from 5A, hiding her for 2 days & then taking her out to sea in a dinghy?
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Well, I am only throwing it out there as a possibility that would explain the dog alert on the clothes. I have never thought the perp was a total stranger in the sense that the crime was random. That´s just how I see it-- I obviously don´t know what happened. I can´t say much more without getting into deep water.
I always thought it was crazy when after the dog alerts observors split into two camps:
1. The dogs were wrong as the Mc Canns were innocent or
2. The dogs were correct as the Mc Canns covered for something.
I just thought:
3. Why not , the dogs were correct but it had nothing to do with the Mc Cann parents??
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Well, I am only throwing it out there as a possibility that would explain the dog alert on the clothes. I have never thought the perp was a total stranger in the sense that the crime was random. That´s just how I see it-- I obviously don´t know what happened. I can´t say much more without getting into deep water.
I always thought it was crazy when after the dog alerts observors split into two camps:
1. The dogs were wrong as the Mc Canns were innocent or
2. The dogs were correct as the Mc Canns covered for something.
I just thought:
3. Why not , the dogs were correct but it had nothing to do with the Mc Cann parents??
Number 3 is more inline with my theory. That someone took a cadaver to the McCanns apartment and removed it after the PJ locked up for the night.
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Well, I am only throwing it out there as a possibility that would explain the dog alert on the clothes. I have never thought the perp was a total stranger in the sense that the crime was random. That´s just how I see it-- I obviously don´t know what happened. I can´t say much more without getting into deep water.
I always thought it was crazy when after the dog alerts observors split into two camps:
1. The dogs were wrong as the Mc Canns were innocent or
2. The dogs were correct as the Mc Canns covered for something.
I just thought:
3. Why not , the dogs were correct but it had nothing to do with the Mc Cann parents??
IMO.....
1 & 2 are black & white.
Number 3 leads you into the grey areas of how the dogs could be correct in only McCann related areas but effectively failed in all other non-McCann related areas. That issue is compounded if Madeleine was, in fact, removed by an abductor & taken towards the seafront.
I just can't see an innocent explanation for the VRD alerts to Sean's T-shirt & shorts when the other not-so-random alerts are factored in to the intelligence gathered during the dogs' deployment.
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I need to be careful what I say here otherwise I might inadvertently give away my theory and suspect(s) but imo the whole case can be unraveled by the following:
Anyone observing/hearing the McCanns exit/enter via the patio doors would know 5A was unlocked since the doors can't be locked externally. This of course would not rule out the possibility an adult had entered earlier via the patio doors or front door and was inside the apartment whilst the McCanns were at tapas. Any would be intruder would also need to be mindful of the fact the McCanns may have had a baby monitor in place.
Work it our for yourselves guys n gals 8((()*/
Well as far as I can see, that ties it down to one of the cleaners and maybe her relatives.
Did any of the child carers go in there at all?
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IMO.....
1 & 2 are black & white.
Number 3 leads you into the grey areas of how the dogs could be correct in only McCann related areas but effectively failed in all other non-McCann related areas. That issue is compounded if Madeleine was, in fact, removed by an abductor & taken towards the seafront.
I just can't see an innocent explanation for the VRD alerts to Sean's T-shirt & shorts when the other not-so-random alerts are factored in to the intelligence gathered during the dogs' deployment.
Only an idea, but how about if Kate had cuddled him one day after work and Cadavar odour which had contaminated her clothes had then passed on to Seans T shirt.
And most clothhes packed were clean but a few were worn a little before. It would be a mammoth task having sufficient freshly laundered clothes, along with all the other things that kids need, ready to pack for three little ones.
But let's not forget, Eddie was double trained. He marked 1) Cadavaer odour and 2) the dried blood from a living person.
We have no proof that Keela checked this T shirt, and identified dried living blood , or not. Without her check, we don't know if Eddie was identifying cadaver odour or the remains of dried blood from a living person
So he could have been marking the dried blood of a living person. Soys are always grazing themselves.
We just dont know, do we ?
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Only an idea, but how about if Kate had cuddled him one day after work and Cadavar odour which had contaminated her clothes had then passed on to Seans T shirt.
And most clothhes packed were clean but a few were worn a little before. It would be a mammoth task having sufficient freshly laundered clothes, along with all the other things that kids need, ready to pack for three little ones.
But let's not forget, Eddie was double trained. He marked 1) Cadavaer odour and 2) the dried blood from a living person.
We have no proof that Keela checked this T shirt, and identified dried living blood , or not. Without her check, we don't know if Eddie was identifying cadaver odour or the remains of dried blood from a living person
So he could have been marking the dried blood of a living person. Soys are always grazing themselves.
We just dont know, do we ?
IMO it's highly unlikely Sean's T-shirt/shorts & Kate's trousers were either stored together at home or beside each other in a suitcase, exclusive of all other clothing. I thought we'd kinda almost agreed a few years ago that Sean's t-shirt was in the laundry pile on the wardrobe shelf shown in the crime scene photos taken overnight 3rd/4th May. IMO there was no contamination on Sean's clothing prior to 4th May.
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IMO it's highly unlikely Sean's T-shirt/shorts & Kate's trousers were either stored together at home or beside each other in a suitcase, exclusive of all other clothing. I thought we'd kinda almost agreed a few years ago that Sean's t-shirt was in the laundry pile on the wardrobe shelf shown in the crime scene photos taken overnight 3rd/4th May. IMO there was no contamination on Sean's clothing prior to 4th May.
What about if those items were under the suitcase that was thought to have a cadaver in it while in the wardrobe shelf?
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What about if those items were under the suitcase that was thought to have a cadaver in it while in the wardrobe shelf?
In that scenario, I would have expected more of the dirty laundry on the lower shelf to have been contaminated & anything that was subsequently packed in the case to have also been heavily contaminated.
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In that scenario, I would have expected more of the dirty laundry on the lower shelf to have been contaminated & anything that was subsequently packed in the case to have also been heavily contaminated.
When I say under I mean directly under the suitcase and on the same shelf, not on the shelf below.
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When I say under I mean directly under the suitcase and on the same shelf, not on the shelf below.
I don't see any clothing immediately under the suitcase itself in the crime scene photos.
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I don't see any clothing immediately under the suitcase itself in the crime scene photos.
I bet you can put a suitcase on a shelf with two small items of clothing under it, and they can be entirely hidden by the size of the case.
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I bet you can put a suitcase on a shelf with two small items of clothing under it, and they can be entirely hidden by the size of the case.
Of course that's possible but it can't be verified by the crime scene photo.
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Of course that's possible but it can't be verified by the crime scene photo.
Remember what Mark Rowley said "all theories have to remain open". If it is not possible to prove either way both options remain viable. The items may or may not have been under the suitcase.
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Remember what Mark Rowley said "all theories have to remain open". If it is not possible to prove either way both options remain viable. The items may or may not have been under the suitcase.
Sean's red t-shirt was in the laundry pile on the lower shelf. Somewhere on the forum is a discussion during which Pegasus showed this to be a fact.
I'd just like to know how a stranger who'd abducted Madeleine could have contaminated Sean's clothing by either picking him up or by other means.
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I need to be careful what I say here otherwise I might inadvertently give away my theory and suspect(s) but imo the whole case can be unraveled by the following:
Anyone observing/hearing the McCanns exit/enter via the patio doors would know 5A was unlocked since the doors can't be locked externally. This of course would not rule out the possibility an adult had entered earlier via the patio doors or front door and was inside the apartment whilst the McCanns were at tapas. Any would be intruder would also need to be mindful of the fact the McCanns may have had a baby monitor in place.
Work it our for yourselves guys n gals 8((()*/
Mrs Fenn!
O.M.G.
Did not see that coming!
It all fits, she went down there between 'checks' to get the kids to stop greetin'.
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Mrs Fenn!
O.M.G.
Did not see that coming!
It all fits, she went down there between 'checks' to get the kids to stop greetin'.
http://www.scotranslate.com/translate/scottish/greetin/1/532#.XT669PIza9U
"greetin' - Scottish to English
The English translation of "greetin'" is
1. crying
2. moaning"
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I have removed the references to 'hugging a corpse' because they are a breach of the high standards we expect from contributors to this forum. There are ways to express oneself without resorting to crudity. Please take note!
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I have removed the references to 'hugging a corpse' because they are a breach of the high standards we expect from contributors to this forum. There are ways to express oneself without resorting to crudity. Please take note!
As you may know I explored the Jonbenet case around Christmas time 2018 and I was surprised but Patsy Ramsey lay on top of Jonbenet's cadaver in an act of reverence asking that Jesus raise her up as he did Lazarus. Now that does seem bizarre to most people but it is a documented fact. IMO it stems from a story in the Old Testament where one of the prophets raised a child back to life after laying on top of the dead child.
So it might just be a thing that a deeply religious person will do when they recall what they had read in the past and do it themselves in desperation.
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As you may know I explored the Jonbenet case around Christmas time 2018 and I was surprised but Patsy Ramsey lay on top of Jonbenet's cadaver in an act of reverence asking that Jesus raise her up as he did Lazarus. Now that does seem bizarre to most people but it is a documented fact. IMO it stems from a story in the Old Testament where one of the prophets raised a child back to life after laying on top of the dead child.
So it might just be a thing that a deeply religious person will do when they recall what they had read in the past and do it themselves in desperation.
People do many things when their back is against the wall. Many including the GNR officers who witnessed it would consider the praying arab event strange but it happens.
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People do many things when their back is against the wall. Many including the GNR officers who witnessed it would consider the praying arab event strange but it happens.
That is why I was not offended by those comments for I knew the background.
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As you may know I explored the Jonbenet case around Christmas time 2018 and I was surprised but Patsy Ramsey lay on top of Jonbenet's cadaver in an act of reverence asking that Jesus raise her up as he did Lazarus. Now that does seem bizarre to most people but it is a documented fact. IMO it stems from a story in the Old Testament where one of the prophets raised a child back to life after laying on top of the dead child.
So it might just be a thing that a deeply religious person will do when they recall what they had read in the past and do it themselves in desperation.
It also might just be a thing that a deeply guilty person will do before fibre evidence is gathered.
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It also might just be a thing that a deeply guilty person will do before fibre evidence is gathered.
That was my first thought too, but then I gave her the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
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That is why I was not offended by those comments for I knew the background.
As I said, there are ways to write most things without causing offence.
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That was my first thought too, but then I gave her the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
I found it interesting they displayed this OTT display of emotion in the presence of the police. Why not display this outburst instantly in the presence of their friends?
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I found it interesting they displayed this OTT display of emotion in the presence of the police. Why not display this outburst instantly in the presence of their friends?
Isn't "F.....ing b........s have taken her" isn't that emotive enough?
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Isn't "F.....ing b......s have taken her" isn't that emotive enough?
I thought she always spoke like that 8(0(*
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I thought she always spoke like that 8(0(*
'I know she had spent some time practicing in New Zealand. Might have picked up our bad habits.
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'I know she had spent some time practicing in New Zealand. Might have picked up our bad habits.
I doubt it rob...my sons a Uk trained GP,...he spent a few years in adelaide...in general he finds paustralians...rude...uncultured...racist...but hes my son so he has orobably picked up my values
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I doubt it rob...my sons a Uk trained GP,...he spent a few years in adelaide...in general he finds australians...rude...uncultured...racist
That's what we tell them too, but they are bigger than us.
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That's what we tell them too, but they are bigger than us.
glad you admit its all true
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glad you admit its all true
I didn't say it was all true. We know what Poms are like. We watch Coronation Street.
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I didn't say it was all true. We know what Poms are like. We watch Coronation Street.
They're the good guys, you should see Eastenders
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I didn't say it was all true. We know what Poms are like. We watch Coronation Street.
words fail me ...anyone who watches coronation street is a ....so you believe waht yu see on the telly,... enough said
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words fail me ...anyone who watches coronation street is a ....so you believe waht yu see on the telly,... enough said
What other program has gone on for 60 odd years? It is rather good for the Soul.
Maybe you need to take some time to watch it.
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What other program has gone on for 60 odd years? It is rather good for the Soul.
Maybe you need to take some time to watch it.
Certainly outlasted that epic of the Midlands, Crossroads.
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Certainly outlasted that epic of the Midlands, Crossroads.
Can't comment as I don't watch TV much, other than Coronation Street.
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Can't comment as I don't watch TV much, other than Coronation Street.
in the uk ...as i understand ...only people of alow level of intelligence social standing watch that awful programme
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Can't comment as I don't watch TV much, other than Coronation Street.
Other than the News, I don't watch much at all. I find myself out of step with modern popular taste.
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Other than the News, I don't watch much at all. I find myself out of step with modern popular taste.
Who can keep up?
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Other than the News, I don't watch much at all. I find myself out of step with modern popular taste.
We were brought up with a TV room at the back of our main house.It is still used in the same way. the TV is 21 years young! It was limited to educational programs. My children are the same. We all have hobbies which don't include a TV or mobile phone or Computer. I skype with friends abroad as I come in here- multi tasking!
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Who can keep up?
Just watching true life police drama,gives a insight to how they work.
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Just watching true life police drama,gives a insight to how they work.
What is a good example IYO?
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in the uk ...as i understand ...only people of alow level of intelligence social standing watch that awful programme
I believe the Queen watches TV, oreferring East Enders to Coronation Street, which her mother liked. She also enjoys Pointless, Downton Abbey and the programmes about antiques.
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Can't comment as I don't watch TV much, other than Coronation Street.
I watch it, although not every episode. The accents are the ones I grew up with.
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I watch it, although not every episode. The accents are the ones I grew up with.
i think its absolute trash,...for those of lower intelligence
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i think its absolute trash,...for those of lower intelligence
Well as I think, could you write an episode? Could you write a drama? I'm admiring the story liners more than anything else.
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i think its absolute trash,...for those of lower intelligence
How do you know if you don't watch it?
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How do you know if you don't watch it?
I find it is really a comedy in lots of ways and we all can do with a laugh at times.
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What is a good example IYO?
I didnt judge the content ,I just that saw it as an insight.
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i think its absolute trash,...for those of lower intelligence
How are you defining 'intelligence'?
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How are you defining 'intelligence'?
The ability to process information... The type of person who thinks the Sun is a good newspaper... Are you a coronation street fan?
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The ability to process information... The type of person who thinks the Sun is a good newspaper... Are you a coronation street fan?
I am.
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What other program has gone on for 60 odd years? It is rather good for the Soul.
Maybe you need to take some time to watch it.
I believe the Sun is one of the highest selling newspapers.. Does that mean it is a good newspaper
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I am.
There's always an exception to the rule
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I watch very little TV... I like university challenge.
When I was 15 I stayed with some people in London and they watched it. I must have got half the questions right... Little did they know I'd seen the same episode two days before in a different TV region
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I believe the Sun is one of the highest selling newspapers.. Does that mean it is a good newspaper
Silly asking me a question like that.
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Silly asking me a question like that.
It's a rhetorical question
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It's a rhetorical question
Well could you answer it for me please?
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Well could you answer it for me please?
No
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The ability to process information... The type of person who thinks the Sun is a good newspaper... Are you a coronation street fan?
What sort of information? Language, maths, music, spatial etc, etc.
It probably is if you like looking at a certain part of the female form.
The Sun currently has a circulation of some 1.4 million set against a UK population of 67 million. Hardly a powerful influence.
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Posters are reminded of the forum rules and the penalties for breaching same. Please keep posts amicable and constructive and above all, on topic. TY
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What sort of information? Language, maths, music, spatial etc, etc.
It probably is if you like looking at a certain part of the female form.
The Sun currently has a circulation of some 1.4 million set against a UK population of 67 million. Hardly a powerful influence.
Yes page 3 and the bingo and vouchers,sex stories and football.. It has it all. well apart from anything worthy on the journalistic sphere.
I did a survey at uni about this. 8)-)))