UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on September 13, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
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The prosecution claim that JB used June's bike to get to and from WHF to avoid detection. On this basis it shows he is taking some preventative measures to avoid detection and weighing up risk v reward.
JM claims that JB had talked of killing his family over many months and had tested more than one scenario in his mind eg drugging and a fire. On this basis it shows JB spent some time fine-tuning his evil plan.
It is further claimed by the prosecution he entered WHF by a window he was able to enter and exit undetected.
Was it possible for JB to have a contingency plan and early orderly exit if it all went horribly wrong in the early stages?
If he entered via the window (a familiar entry with family members) there was the potential for noise from opening the window and/or stumbling by mistake and/or the dogs barking etc. He gets in undetected then has to move about in the dark again avoiding any noise while removing the telephone from the cradle in the kitchen and gathering the gun and ammo (and silencer !?) which may have been where he claims he left them or in any other location if moved by others. Next he is tasked with moving upstairs to deal with arguably the greatest threat to his plan, controlling/killing NB. I do not know whether June and NB slept with the bedroom door open, closed or ajar? However it seems to me that up until this juncture if his plan went awry eg NB woke and/or others, JB could orchestrate an orderly exit by claiming that he was unable to sleep due to a sore throat/headache and was looking for some remedy as he had run out at Goldhanger. He could explain the gun in his possession by saying he thought he heard an intruder. Bizarre though it might sound he would know that anyone would struggle to demonstrate attempted murder at this juncture. Think OP.
Surely JB, a crack shot, would listen out for breathing/snoring as he crept up the stairs? If all was well ie no movement from the main bedroom he would gently open the door, if closed/ajar, and (POINT OF NO RETURN) disable/kill NB before he had an opportunity to leave his bed? The problem with this scenario is it does not afford an opportunity for the phone call from NB/JB's alibi of sorts. If NB was shot and killed in bed it would then prove difficult to stage NB's body in the bedroom as though he had made a phone call from there. If SC was going beserk with a gun anyone would be hard pressed to believe NB would make such a call lying down in bed or even sitting up in bed? (phone by NB's side of bed?) JB could have ordered/allowed NB out of bed and killed him in the bedroom to facilitate the phone call/alibi from the bedroom? Why did he waste vital seconds shooting June before disabling/controlling/killing NB?
He could also have taken further preventative measures to ensure he could control the situation by removing/hiding exit door keys. And disabling the phone in the office instead of the kitchen (only one phone line in WHF meaning one phone off the hook would disable others) and locking the office door (if lockable) or making access difficult in some way giving him vital seconds to shoot a victim if they escaped. Easier to control the office and office phone with one entry point as opposed to two in the kitchen?
Surely the grand plan would be to shoot all victims in their own bed with the exception of NB who JB would order/allow NB out of bed and kill him in the bedroom to facilitate the phone call/alibi from the bedroom? SC could be staged from her own bed. If she got up he would simply order her back to bed. After all there's no evidence that she resisted being shot twice in the main bedroom?
Regardless of any of the above it makes no sense to me why JB would not stage the bedroom phone rather than the kitchen phone? Why he would not disable the office phone rather than the kitchen phone? And more importantly why he would waste vital seconds shooting June in the bedroom before controlling NB?
&%+((£
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Regardless of any of the above it makes no sense to me why JB would not stage the bedroom phone rather than the kitchen phone? Why he would not disable the office phone rather than the kitchen phone? And more importantly why he would waste vital seconds shooting June in the bedroom before controlling NB?
&%+((£
The kitchen phone was the first one he came to after letting himself into the house, there was no reason to complicate matters by incorporating the bedroom phone.
Something else I don't see mentioned much is why the outside dog didn't go berserk when it heard an intruder. The only possible answer to this is that the dog knew it was Jeremy so no need to bark. Our farm dogs are exactly the same, they will bark at unidentified intrusions at night but are silent if they identify family members.
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I think the office was on the first floor? Do we have a floor plan of WHF?
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I think the office was on the first floor? Do we have a floor plan of WHF?
Holly, we've had one since 2012!
They were developed from the original unfinished plans, although I'm not sure if abs knows of any others available. You watchin' abs?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)
Originals...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19593#msg19593 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19593#msg19593)
The Upper Office/Store partition might not be in the actual position as drawn but the general layout I think is fairly accurate.
My internet is slow tonight so your connection might be the same and they could take a while to load.
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It is further claimed by the prosecution he entered WHF by a window he was able to enter and exit undetected.
Was it possible for JB to have a contingency plan and early orderly exit if it all went horribly wrong in the early stages?
If he entered via the window (a familiar entry with family members) there was the potential for noise from opening the window and/or stumbling by mistake and/or the dogs barking etc. He gets in undetected then has to move about in the dark again avoiding any noise while removing the telephone from the cradle in the kitchen and gathering the gun and ammo (and silencer !?) which may have been where he claims he left them or in any other location if moved by others. Next he is tasked with moving upstairs to deal with arguably the greatest threat to his plan, controlling/killing NB. I do not know whether June and NB slept with the bedroom door open, closed or ajar? However it seems to me that up until this juncture if his plan went awry eg NB woke and/or others, JB could orchestrate an orderly exit by claiming that he was unable to sleep due to a sore throat/headache and was looking for some remedy as he had run out at Goldhanger. He could explain the gun in his possession by saying he thought he heard an intruder. Bizarre though it might sound he would know that anyone would struggle to demonstrate attempted murder at this juncture. Think OP.
Surely JB, a crack shot, would listen out for breathing/snoring as he crept up the stairs? If all was well ie no movement from the main bedroom he would gently open the door, if closed/ajar, and (POINT OF NO RETURN) disable/kill NB before he had an opportunity to leave his bed? The problem with this scenario is it does not afford an opportunity for the phone call from NB/JB's alibi of sorts. If NB was shot and killed in bed it would then prove difficult to stage NB's body in the bedroom as though he had made a phone call from there. If SC was going beserk with a gun anyone would be hard pressed to believe NB would make such a call lying down in bed or even sitting up in bed? (phone by NB's side of bed?) JB could have ordered/allowed NB out of bed and killed him in the bedroom to facilitate the phone call/alibi from the bedroom? Why did he waste vital seconds shooting June before disabling/controlling/killing NB?
Just who in the family other than Jeremy Bamber used the sliding-sash window to get inside WHF?
No doubt in my mind that the routine for getting in and out was well practiced by him several times before to make sure he could do silently (perhaps while the rest of the family were out). Having once lived in an old house with sliding-sash windows the wood frames tend to shrink over time making them easy to slide up and down quietly. The cast-iron counterweights boxed in on either side make the movement easier still.
Eyes become accustomed to seeing in the dark after a while and he knew the layout of WHF thoroughly because he was brought up there, so moving about inside presented no problem to him.
Why would JB even consider the plan going pear-shaped?
He couldn't allow the plan to fail because this was the only time the family would be gathered together at WHF perhaps before the following Christmas. Was it "Tonight's the night!" or "It's now or never!" that the told JM?
Why shoot June first? Because she was nearest when he entered to the bedroom door. The plan was to shoot both parents in quick succession.
Vital seconds are not lost with a semi-auto rifle like the Anschutz - you've seen the demo on Youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
As soon as June was shot, Nevill's spontaneous reaction would to get up aqap to disarm whoever was firing at them, but he obviously didn't succeed. The kitchen phone fit-up was planned on the fly when the first scenario didn't work out as JB expected.
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Holly, we've had one since 2012!
They were developed from the original unfinished plans, although I'm not sure if abs knows of any others available. You watchin' abs?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)
Originals...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19593#msg19593 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19593#msg19593)
The Upper Office/Store partition might not be in the actual position as drawn but the general layout I think is fairly accurate.
My internet is slow tonight so your connection might be the same and they could take a while to load.
*&(+(+ Myster. I did try and find it, really I did!
I have some Q's please if you know the A's:
1. Which office was the "office phone" situated in the office/den or upstairs office?
2. Which window is it that the prosecution claim JB entered and exited?
3. AE's WS's state that she found the buckets by the sink. Based on the photo and the floor plans you have made available it appears they were situated between 2 and 4 and in direct view when the raid team entered so I am surprised they did not note them in their WS's, especially as they contained bloody water?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3905.msg146317#msg146317
4. Did the laundry room have a sink? I would have thought the laundry room was the natural home for the buckets of clothing?
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Holly, we've had one since 2012!
They were developed from the original unfinished plans, although I'm not sure if abs knows of any others available. You watchin' abs?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)
Originals...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19593#msg19593 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19593#msg19593)
The Upper Office/Store partition might not be in the actual position as drawn but the general layout I think is fairly accurate.
My internet is slow tonight so your connection might be the same and they could take a while to load.
Umm, NO! 8(>(( 8(0(*
You have all the floor plans I have seen, including the ones I nicked from you. *&(+(+
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Just who in the family other than Jeremy Bamber used the sliding-sash window to get inside WHF?
No doubt in my mind that the routine for getting in and out was well practiced by him several times before to make sure he could do silently (perhaps while the rest of the family were out). Having once lived in an old house with sliding-sash windows the wood frames tend to shrink over time making them easy to slide up and down quietly. The cast-iron counterweights boxed in on either side make the movement easier still.
Eyes become accustomed to seeing in the dark after a while and he knew the layout of WHF thoroughly because he was brought up there, so moving about inside presented no problem to him.
Why would JB even consider the plan going pear-shaped?
He couldn't allow the plan to fail because this was the only time the family would be gathered together at WHF perhaps before the following Christmas. Was it "Tonight's the night!" or "It's now or never!" that the told JM?
Why shoot June first? Because she was nearest when he entered to the bedroom door. The plan was to shoot both parents in quick succession.
Vital seconds are not lost with a semi-auto rifle like the Anschutz - you've seen the demo on Youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
As soon as June was shot, Nevill's spontaneous reaction would to get up aqap to disarm whoever was firing at them, but he obviously didn't succeed. The kitchen phone fit-up was planned on the fly when the first scenario didn't work out as JB expected.
I am sure I have read somewhere (not sure of the accuracy) that AP used a window to exit WHF?
Was "Tonights the night" the only opportunity? SC and the twins arrived at WHF on the Sunday. The tragedy occurred on the Tues eve/Wed morn. Colin was due to collect the twins later in the week for a trip to Norway to visit his sister. I think SC was to remain at WHF.
As an aside perhaps that's the reason NB had a wad of cash in his wallet as he intended to give some to the twins/Colin for the hol?
It makes no sense to me why JB would shoot June first. She was a petite woman and from what I can glean about her perhaps a little on the anxious side ie she would pose little threat. On the other hand NB was a powerfully built man and military trained.
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*&(+(+ Myster. I did try and find it, really I did!
I have some Q's please if you know the A's:
1. Which office was the "office phone" situated in the office/den or upstairs office?
2. Which window is it that the prosecution claim JB entered and exited?
3. AE's WS's state that she found the buckets by the sink. Based on the photo and the floor plans you have made available it appears they were situated between 2 and 4 and in direct view when the raid team entered so I am surprised they did not note them in their WS's, especially as they contained bloody water?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3905.msg146317#msg146317 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3905.msg146317#msg146317)
4. Did the laundry room have a sink? I would have thought the laundry room was the natural home for the buckets of clothing?
1. Can't make out any phone on the Office/Den photo, although part of the desk is cut off where one might have been. Wonder if there was an additional one upstairs as this was probably where the main farm business was carried out. Seem to think Barbara Wilson occupied the upstairs Office, so I assume she was in to answer phone calls when Nevill was otherwise occupied on the farm.
2. This sliding-sash in the corner (no.6 on plan), the nearest to the farm gate and giving access to the Washroom/Toilet although JB claimed to have entered other downstairs windows (also no.6 to the Lounge) at other times. Third photo down...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19598#msg19598 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19598#msg19598)
3. Probably never entered their heads to do so because they assumed at that stage Sheila was the culprit and so she put her bloodstained clothing to soak before ritually washing (according to some)! Unless they're mentioned in other statements not disclosed.
4. Laundry Room had a sink (see drain pipe below the window on the outside). The red Addis type plastic waste bin in front of the washing machine/dishwasher might have been the one where AE disposed of the tracksuit bottoms and knickers...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg71558#msg71558 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg71558#msg71558)
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It makes no sense to me why JB would shoot June first. She was a petite woman and from what I can glean about her perhaps a little on the anxious side ie she would pose little threat. On the other hand NB was a powerfully built man and military trained.
Maybe because he hated his mother most of all, if the adverse comments about her to his friends are to be believed. But as I said, JB's intention was to wipe out the whole family in a deliberate assasination in as short a time as possible, so it didn't matter to him who was shot first so long as they were all taken out.
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Umm, NO! 8(>(( 8(0(*
You have all the floor plans I have seen, including the ones I nicked from you. *&(+(+
Odd that... I thought Hartley had produced some other WHF plans.
Thanks anyway abs!
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Odd that... I thought Hartley had produced some other WHF plans.
Thanks anyway abs!
Wish I had seen those - maybe I should ask him.
P.S. Hi again, Myster. Turns out I have one more set of plan drawings - guess they must be the ones you are referring to. I have hundreds and hundreds of case related pictures on my computer, so I had just overlooked and forgotten about them.
I have added them to the photo thread on blue, but you have to be a member to see them. Think I would have to ask Hartley if it is OK for me to post them here - do you want me to do that?
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Wish I had seen those - maybe I should ask him.
P.S. Hi again, Myster. Turns out I have one more set of plan drawings - guess they must be the ones you are referring to. I have hundreds and hundreds of case related pictures on my computer, so I had just overlooked and forgotten about them.
I have added them to the photo thread on blue, but you have to be a member to see them. Think I would have to ask Hartley if it is OK for me to post them here - do you want me to do that?
Hello abs, sorry for the late reply as I've only just seen your post this morning.
Thanks for taking the trouble to search for them.
Thought I'd read about others in the distant past, but I've never been a member and don't intend to complicate my life even more to find out.
If you posted mine over there, then maybe you could ask Hartley if he would allow them here to compare. I was working blind with only the unfinished police drawings to scale, so location of some partitions might be different, eg. the Scullery looks longer and narrower than it could be in reality, and the position of the door/access panel in the Bathroom/Store dividing wall seems odd, although I think this was noted in a TFU statement. I understand that the Office/Den part was a later refurbishment so accessing the upstairs bedroom area of the house from the Upper Office or Store through the Bathroom was the only way this could be achieved.
Maybe Hartley's might be the more accurate seeing as he (I think) is familiar with the layout of WHF.
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OK, Myster, here you are.
Mike posted them originally - they are an official case document, probably produced for the prosecution in 1985 or 1986.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3350.0;attach=23291;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3350.0;attach=23289;image)
Hope this helps.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Maybe because he hated his mother most of all, if the adverse comments about her to his friends are to be believed. But as I said, JB's intention was to wipe out the whole family in a deliberate assasination in as short a time as possible, so it didn't matter to him who was shot first so long as they were all taken out.
Yes in this regard the prosecution at trial relied upon the evidence of JM and her mother, Mary Mugford, RWB, Doris Foakes and James Richard.
However there is also much evidence that SC disliked (hated?) her adoptive mother:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4383.msg180308.html#msg180308
As far as I am aware the defence only called Dr F? Not sure if CC was called on SC's relationship with June?
If JB planned the murders over many months surely he would realise he would need to deal with the greatest threat(s) to his plan in order of priority?
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The prosecution claim that JB used June's bike to get to and from WHF to avoid detection. On this basis it shows he is taking some preventative measures to avoid detection and weighing up risk v reward.
JM claims that JB had talked of killing his family over many months and had tested more than one scenario in his mind eg drugging and a fire. On this basis it shows JB spent some time fine-tuning his evil plan.
It is further claimed by the prosecution he entered WHF by a window he was able to enter and exit undetected.
Was it possible for JB to have a contingency plan and early orderly exit if it all went horribly wrong in the early stages?
If he entered via the window (a familiar entry with family members) there was the potential for noise from opening the window and/or stumbling by mistake and/or the dogs barking etc. He gets in undetected then has to move about in the dark again avoiding any noise while removing the telephone from the cradle in the kitchen and gathering the gun and ammo (and silencer !?) which may have been where he claims he left them or in any other location if moved by others. Next he is tasked with moving upstairs to deal with arguably the greatest threat to his plan, controlling/killing NB. I do not know whether June and NB slept with the bedroom door open, closed or ajar? However it seems to me that up until this juncture if his plan went awry eg NB woke and/or others, JB could orchestrate an orderly exit by claiming that he was unable to sleep due to a sore throat/headache and was looking for some remedy as he had run out at Goldhanger. He could explain the gun in his possession by saying he thought he heard an intruder. Bizarre though it might sound he would know that anyone would struggle to demonstrate attempted murder at this juncture. Think OP.
Surely JB, a crack shot, would listen out for breathing/snoring as he crept up the stairs? If all was well ie no movement from the main bedroom he would gently open the door, if closed/ajar, and (POINT OF NO RETURN) disable/kill NB before he had an opportunity to leave his bed? The problem with this scenario is it does not afford an opportunity for the phone call from NB/JB's alibi of sorts. If NB was shot and killed in bed it would then prove difficult to stage NB's body in the bedroom as though he had made a phone call from there. If SC was going beserk with a gun anyone would be hard pressed to believe NB would make such a call lying down in bed or even sitting up in bed? (phone by NB's side of bed?) JB could have ordered/allowed NB out of bed and killed him in the bedroom to facilitate the phone call/alibi from the bedroom? Why did he waste vital seconds shooting June before disabling/controlling/killing NB?
He could also have taken further preventative measures to ensure he could control the situation by removing/hiding exit door keys. And disabling the phone in the office instead of the kitchen (only one phone line in WHF meaning one phone off the hook would disable others) and locking the office door (if lockable) or making access difficult in some way giving him vital seconds to shoot a victim if they escaped. Easier to control the office and office phone with one entry point as opposed to two in the kitchen?
Surely the grand plan would be to shoot all victims in their own bed with the exception of NB who JB would order/allow NB out of bed and kill him in the bedroom to facilitate the phone call/alibi from the bedroom? SC could be staged from her own bed. If she got up he would simply order her back to bed. After all there's no evidence that she resisted being shot twice in the main bedroom?
Regardless of any of the above it makes no sense to me why JB would not stage the bedroom phone rather than the kitchen phone? Why he would not disable the office phone rather than the kitchen phone? And more importantly why he would waste vital seconds shooting June in the bedroom before controlling NB?
&%+((£
I don't think there was any chance of a caught Jeremy saying he could not sleep & had travelled to WHF to look for some sleeping pills. Or of Neville believing him. Especially if Jeremy was holding the gun.
Jeremy was going there to achieve a successful msssacre. Or fail trying.