Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on September 25, 2014, 01:48:43 PM
Title: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: John on September 25, 2014, 01:48:43 PM
Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?
Evidence of an abduction can include the following:
* A missing person. * Stolen property. * A break-in or forced entry. * Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets. * Persons acting suspiciously nearby. * A ransom demand. * Sightings of the missing person.
Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2014, 02:25:19 PM
Glove marks.
TECHNICAL FAULTS
Inside the apartment, police forensic specialists proceed to lift finger and palm prints, a job that is preferably carried out during daylight hours. Others look for traces of blood, samples of fibres and hair. We notice with dismay that one of the technicians, who is working on the outside of the McCann children's bedroom window is not using the regulation suit, thus risking contaminating possible clues. These images of negligence start to circulate world-wide; this isn't, however, the usual behaviour of police judiciary technicians.
It's obvious that no one has broken in and the lock has not been forced. No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor. In the middle of this desert of clues, two prints are perfectly easily found: the very distinct mark of a palm print on the balcony window at the rear of the apartment, and a clearly visible one of fingers on the window pane of Madeleine's bedroom. The excellent quality of the palm print seemed suspicious to us. Later, analyses confirm our suspicions: it belonged to one of the officers who were present the previous night. (TOTL)
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 25, 2014, 02:54:32 PM
Parental behaviour
In the case of a child abduction the attitude and behaviour of the parents can be evidence and a pointer as to how genuine the claimed abduction might be. Police should not be influenced by the scenes which greet them but should step back and consider all possibilities.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 04:01:03 PM
In the case of a child abduction the attitude and behaviour of the parents can be evidence and a pointer as to how genuine the claimed abduction might be. Police should not be influenced by the scenes which greet them but should step back and consider all possibilities.
Very fair point... absolutely spot on.....SY seem to have concluded that the parents behaviour in this case matches abduction and have ruled out parental involvement....
Perhaps someone could let us know how often..the two biological parents...with no history of abuse....with no history of psychiatric problems are responsible in this sort of case
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2014, 04:38:41 PM
Very fair point... absolutely spot on.....SY seem to have concluded that the parents behaviour in this case matches abduction and have ruled out parental involvement....
Perhaps someone could let us know how often..the two biological parents...with no history of abuse....with no history of psychiatric problems are responsible in this sort of case
A nice little research project for you; why don't you take it on?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 04:54:05 PM
A nice little research project for you; why don't you take it on?
because I pretty well know the answer
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: xtina on September 25, 2014, 07:01:43 PM
where would the mccs have got the print out.......it seems they already had the prints...[probably just in case maddie was abducted eh].....
something you wouldn't have expected to be there...IMO ...they seemed very organised ..considering there daughter was missing ...and anything could be happening to her......
He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
Processos, Volume 12, Page 231
Snippet From the Statement by Nelson Filipe Pacheco de Costa about the events of the night of 3rd May.
GNR Officer
One of the group contacted Sky News and the Embassy that night. He does not know if the parents made the call.
Upon leaving the apartment he saw various photographs of the little girl printed on normal A4 paper which had been printed at the reception as well as other photos printed on 10 x 15 photographic poster paper which could not have printed at the reception. This seemed unusual to him and he later confirmed that they could not have been printed at the reception.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 07:32:19 PM
Oft quoted is that when children are the victims of crime or abuse the perps are most likely to be their parents...family member ...friend of family..whilst tis is true it is interesting to note the definition of parent...
The term 'parent' is defined as a biological parent, step parent, adopted parent of the victim or the resident or non resident partner of the victim's parent
So the statistics are skewed by mom's new boyfriend who happens to have a serious drug problem...but for these statistics he is classed as a parent
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: xtina on September 25, 2014, 07:45:33 PM
Oft quoted is that when children are the victims of crime or abuse the perps are most likely to be their parents...family member ...friend of family..whilst tis is true it is interesting to note the definition of parent...
The term 'parent' is defined as a biological parent, step parent, adopted parent of the victim or the resident or non resident partner of the victim's parent
So the statistics are skewed by mom's new boyfriend who happens to have a serious drug problem...but for these statistics he is classed as a parent
seems like mothers are are the main ones
Over the course of his 40-year career, Resnick has worked on 40 to 60 cases involving parents who killed their children. Although he cannot offer a mental diagnosis or legal opinion in the Powers’ case, he can discuss the motivations of parents who kill and what we know about them. About 250 to 300 children are murdered by their parents each year.
Does this seem to be a typical case of a mother who kills her children?
It’s aytpical. Younger children are much more likely to be killed than teenagers. If a child is killed for being “mouthy,” the remark that came out here, that’s more likely to lead to fatal battering. [Usually, in such cases,] a 3-to-5-year-old is thrown against a wall in an overzealous attempt at discipline and dies — as opposed to [a parent] planning to kill and shooting them with a gun.
You have identified five main circumstances in which parents kill their children.
The first is “altruistic.” The classic case is the mother who plans to take her own life and believes that the children are better off in heaven with her. Number Two is the case in which the parent is acutely psychotic. The third type is fatal battering [as described above]. The fourth is [to get rid of] an unwanted baby, for example an infant born out of wedlock. The final category is spousal revenge, [in which a parent kills the children to hurt the partner], typically after infidelity.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
Over the course of his 40-year career, Resnick has worked on 40 to 60 cases involving parents who killed their children. Although he cannot offer a mental diagnosis or legal opinion in the Powers’ case, he can discuss the motivations of parents who kill and what we know about them. About 250 to 300 children are murdered by their parents each year.
Does this seem to be a typical case of a mother who kills her children?
It’s aytpical. Younger children are much more likely to be killed than teenagers. If a child is killed for being “mouthy,” the remark that came out here, that’s more likely to lead to fatal battering. [Usually, in such cases,] a 3-to-5-year-old is thrown against a wall in an overzealous attempt at discipline and dies — as opposed to [a parent] planning to kill and shooting them with a gun.
You have identified five main circumstances in which parents kill their children.
The first is “altruistic.” The classic case is the mother who plans to take her own life and believes that the children are better off in heaven with her. Number Two is the case in which the parent is acutely psychotic. The third type is fatal battering [as described above]. The fourth is [to get rid of] an unwanted baby, for example an infant born out of wedlock. The final category is spousal revenge, [in which a parent kills the children to hurt the partner], typically after infidelity.
interesting article. Al five either exhibit psychotic behaviour or a broken relationship. I'm sure the police looked at the McCanns and didn't see any reason why they would hurt maddie
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2014, 08:38:22 PM
where would the mccs have got the print out.......it seems they already had the prints...[probably just in case maddie was abducted eh].....
something you wouldn't have expected to be there...IMO ...they seemed very organised ..considering there daughter was missing ...and anything could be happening to her......
He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
Processos, Volume 12, Page 231
Snippet From the Statement by Nelson Filipe Pacheco de Costa about the events of the night of 3rd May.
GNR Officer
One of the group contacted Sky News and the Embassy that night. He does not know if the parents made the call.
Upon leaving the apartment he saw various photographs of the little girl printed on normal A4 paper which had been printed at the reception as well as other photos printed on 10 x 15 photographic poster paper which could not have printed at the reception. This seemed unusual to him and he later confirmed that they could not have been printed at the reception.
Everyone carried photos of their family back then.....Postcard size
the questions that were asked from the missing person's family members, and the answers that were given. She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: bros on September 26, 2014, 12:30:10 AM
Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?
Evidence of an abduction can include the following:
* A missing person. * Stolen property. * A break-in or forced entry. * Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets. * Persons acting suspiciously nearby. * A ransom demand. * Sightings of the missing person.
Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.
How about: Preplanned organization to commit a crime, this is proof of abduction is in it. Police here have used deductive method after isolating a group of people. And seems they have hit the nail. So yes there will be other evidences but the breakthrough was made with the above mentioned method a lot of hard work and plenty of people.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 06:54:46 AM
How about: Preplanned organization to commit a crime, this is proof of abduction is in it. Police here have used deductive method after isolating a group of people. And seems they have hit the nail. So yes there will be other evidences but the breakthrough was made with the above mentioned method a lot of hard work and plenty of people.
What have they found exactly, other than 'persons of interest'.
.............and that's it.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 09:23:11 AM
First pointer to abduction could perhaps be considered to be a missing child.
In Madeleine McCann’s case the protocols for dealing with such a situation were not put in place and inept gathering of forensic evidence meant the first samples taken yielded no results. Therefore any traces either of any person with a legitimate reason for being in the apartment or of an intruder were effectively eradicated.
This monumental failure is ignored by all except for a brief mention in Dr Amaral’s book where he mentions it in passing and notes the technician’s lack of protective clothing which we had seen in stills and videos anyway - images of which must have made professionals shudder - but which was obviously the least of the problems.
The forensic evidence having been effectively destroyed … we are then left with phone records and eye witness accounts for the days and hours prior to Madeleine’s disappearance … that NSY were able to build a case for reopening the inquiry based on the inadequacies of the scrutiny of hundreds of leads … speaks volumes.
I am sure there is also information held by the PJ and the Met not in the public domain which has led them to renew the investigation … the pity of it is that any perpetrator/s will be well warned … exactly what you want if you are the criminal … not so handy if you are law enforcement.
IMO only those who do not wish to see Madeleine’s case resolved are wilfully impeding progress, one has to wonder why.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 09:31:06 AM
First pointer to abduction could perhaps be considered to be a missing child.
In Madeleine McCann’s case the protocols for dealing with such a situation were not put in place and inept gathering of forensic evidence meant the first samples taken yielded no results. Therefore any traces either of any person with a legitimate reason for being in the apartment or of an intruder were effectively eradicated.
This monumental failure is ignored by all except for a brief mention in Dr Amaral’s book where he mentions it in passing and notes the technician’s lack of protective clothing which we had seen in stills and videos anyway - images of which must have made professionals shudder - but which was obviously the least of the problems.
The forensic evidence having been effectively destroyed … we are then left with phone records and eye witness accounts for the days and hours prior to Madeleine’s disappearance … that NSY were able to build a case for reopening the inquiry based on the inadequacies of the scrutiny of hundreds of leads … speaks volumes.
I am sure there is also information held by the PJ and the Met not in the public domain which has led them to renew the investigation … the pity of it is that any perpetrator/s will be well warned … exactly what you want if you are the criminal … not so handy if you are law enforcement.
IMO only those who do not wish to see Madeleine’s case resolved are wilfully impeding progress, one has to wonder why.
First pointer to a missing child can also be the child is dead.
The mccanns and party spoiled the crime scene.
If they believed Madeleine had been abducted , why search all over the apartment. makes no sense.
Why would a real investigation wanr any potential 'suspects' they were after them.
Makes no sense, does it ?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 10:13:31 AM
First pointer to a missing child can also be the child is dead.
The mccanns and party spoiled the crime scene.
If they believed Madeleine had been abducted , why search all over the apartment. makes no sense.
Why would a real investigation wanr any potential 'suspects' they were after them.
Makes no sense, does it ?
First pointer to a missing child can also be the child is dead. Nonsense … if the child is found dead … s\he is by definition no longer missing; in the lack of the sad discovery of a body in Madeleine McCann’s disappearance she is still a missing child and not a dead one however much that may fit your narrative.
The mccanns and party spoiled the crime scene. Nonsense ... The police failed to secure the crime scene … that is what police do … not the victims.
If they believed Madeleine had been abducted , why search all over the apartment. makes no sense. Nonsense ... it makes sense in the first instance to ensure the child … living or dead … is not in the immediate vicinity before calling the authorities … but of course, you already know that because it has been so stated umpteenth times.
Why would a real investigation wanr any potential 'suspects' they were after them. No choice … if the ‘real’ investigation had been on UK soil – no problem. Surprised you don’t know it is under Portuguese jurisdiction.
Makes no sense, does it ? Allowing the harvesting of the initial and all important forensics to be carried out by amateurs who were not up to the job sure don’t make sense to me … must have made sense to someone though.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Justice K on September 26, 2014, 01:49:13 PM
Lots of things don't make sense in this case but the parents own actions are what interests me. The last people known to have seen the child will always come under scrutiny from the moment the police are involved. The detectives job is to examine every possible scenario and that includes looking at the parents and their associates. The McCanns reacted badly to this scrutiny and appeared to resent the police because of it. As GP's they would and should have known that they would have been the first to be investigated so why the huge hullabaloo?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 26, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Lots of things don't make sense in this case but the parents own actions are what interests me. The last people known to have seen the child will always come under scrutiny from the moment the police are involved. The detectives job is to examine every possible scenario and that includes looking at the parents and their associates. The McCanns reacted badly to this scrutiny and appeared to resent the police because of it. As GP's they would and should have known that they would have been the first to be investigated so why the huge hullabaloo?
what huge hullabaloo are you referring to?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 26, 2014, 02:22:47 PM
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: xtina on September 26, 2014, 02:24:50 PM
[quote removed]
then all the more reason to put people straight ....like they should all have to answer questions they did not answer ....and do a reconstruction .a lie detector test..to back what they say up ...although IMO it would be near on impossible to get them to do it.....
IMO that would be the only way to stop would stop comments like this...
Apologies for getting sidetracked Mr Editor. To respond to Mr Jones, the hullabaloo I referred to earlier was the comments they made about the Portuguese investigation team and in particular Senor Paiva whose job was in liaising between the parents and the police. As soon as he was perceived as the enemy the entire equilibrium of the relationship changed.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2014, 09:32:29 PM
Apologies for getting sidetracked Mr Editor. To respond to Mr Jones, the hullabaloo I referred to earlier was the comments they made about the Portuguese investigation team and in particular Senor Paiva whose job was in liaising between the parents and the police. As soon as he was perceived as the enemy the entire equilibrium of the relationship changed.
As you would expect after he cut Kate at the police station. Aparantly friend one minute and obvious enemy immediately afterwatds
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: a.baker on September 27, 2014, 12:07:50 AM
Why didn't Kate answer those questions. Her solicitor advised her not to so as not to incriminate herself. How can you possibly incriminate yourself if you are telling the truth? GM answered the questions. Many believe this was decided between the McCannn's so that they couldn't then contradict each others version of events.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: sadie on September 27, 2014, 12:17:42 AM
Why didn't Kate answer those questions. Her solicitor advised her not to so as not to incriminate herself. How can you possibly incriminate yourself if you are telling the truth? GM answered the questions. Many believe this was decided between the McCannn's so that they couldn't then contradict each others version of events.
Are you forgetting what happened to Leonor Cipriano, Joao and Michael Cook ?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Anna on September 27, 2014, 12:20:44 AM
Why didn't Kate answer those questions. Her solicitor advised her not to so as not to incriminate herself. How can you possibly incriminate yourself if you are telling the truth? GM answered the questions. Many believe this was decided between the McCannn's so that they couldn't then contradict each others version of events.
Its a shame really, Amanda, that so many people "Believe" certain things, without any truth to back it up. If my lawyer told me to say nothing, then thats what I would do, what would you do? GM didnt have to answer, but he chose too.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 12:16:03 PM
I've added your suggested indicators in bold and my comments in regular type. My comments are not necessarily case-specific. They are mostly generic, with some case-specific reflections.
Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?
Evidence of an abduction can include the following:
* A missing person. Yes, but this might be classified as an indicator as opposed to evidence. It doesn't exclude other possibilities.
* Stolen property. Not sure about that one. People are sometimes briefly abducted or simply mugged in order to steal jewellery, an expensive phone or what not... but would one expect property to be missing if an abduction is the primary objective?
* A break-in or forced entry. Possibly, although that wouldn't exclude entering via the unlocked door or the use of a duplicate key.
* Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets. There were footprints, but they were unuseable, in part to due to contamination by fingerprint powder. The search for fingerprints was limited.
* Persons acting suspiciously nearby. There were, whether they are relevant or not remains to be seen.
* A ransom demand. In a kidnapping.
* Sightings of the missing person. Tannerman (seemingly now excluded) and Smithman who doesn't appear to have been identified yet. It's not clear if the couple with a child near the Lagos marina / station was ever identified.
Despite the publicity, her appearance could have been changed and with time she wouldn't resemble the little girl in the photos we all remember. The fleck in her eye wouldn't stand out at a distance and sunglasses or slightly tinted glasses would cover that up in public.
Even though there were numerous presumably false "sightings", once the leaks of suspicions about the parents, and then Amaral's book insisting that she was dead and that the parents were involved, how many people seriously continued to remain vigilant?
Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.
Adding a few of my own to the list.
* Unexplained fibres or hairs. There are hairs that have still not been identified. A sweep for hairs / fibres doesn't appear to have taken place throughout the flat. She could have been taken while in the bathroom or in her parents' bedroom, for example.
* Unexplained disturbance of objects. The only thing that seems unexplained is the door apparently being found further open than usual, although a breeze when one or other people walked in / out or a child walking out could possibly explain that.
* Abandoned belongings of the person. Clothes, bag, phone, jewellery, bike (for an adult or older child). Only pyjamas would apply in this case and none seem to have been recovered. However, the search of bins took place quite some time after with only a couple of municipal employees to attempt to cover the totality in a very short space of time. If the PJs had been made difficult to recognise, e.g. by burning or shredding, and mixed in with household rubbish, it seems unlikely that they would have been found. The search was, by all accounts, not a fingertip forensic search. PJs could also be weighted down and thrown down a well or in the sea or dumped elsewhere anyway.
* CCTV. This can often shed light in areas that have CCTV coverage and presumed trajectories / timings / suspected vehicles / unexplained presence in certain areas can be checked. CCTV isn't common in PT, let alone in sleepy villages. The PJ didn't seem to have checked existing security cameras thoroughly as a priority. The only one that might have shown something significant in the vicinity got wiped. The one checked in a nearby petrol station wasn't her. The one at the Paraiso café established the presence of the majority of the group at the time they'd stated, but nothing of direct significance.
A few others could be indicators:
* Unusual phone activity. This was partly checked at the time, but is now being investigated more thoroughly.
* Unfamiliar cars appearing to prowl or suddenly screech off. No sudden screeching appears to have been noted. "Prowling" is subjective and could simply mean someone innocently searching for a parking spot.
* Family / professional situation. No known history of familial abuse, complex family situations, desperate financial situations, mental illness, unwanted babies, known enemies in search of revenge, kidnapping for political or financial purposes, etc.
* Indicators related to previous crimes in the area. - Numerous burglaries or attempted ones had taken place.
- Several assaults or attempted ones on other children had taken place in the area, some of which involved entry to the living space of the families involved, even when parents were there.
- The lack of resources to overhaul the judicial system, a potential lack of coordination between police forces and the absence of a sexual offenders and DNA database may mean that suspects are still out there, moving within PT or even in other European states, or could even be in jail for unrelated offences.
ETA:
* Cigarette butts on a balcony that could have been a potential vantage point. These don't appear to have been collected.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 12:19:34 PM
What have they found exactly, other than 'persons of interest'.
.............and that's it.
Stephen, the subject of this topic is "What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?"
You are one of the main persons challenging others concerning evidence of an abduction, yet I don't seem to find any direct answer from you on this topic.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 12:30:25 PM
where would the mccs have got the print out.......it seems they already had the prints...[probably just in case maddie was abducted eh].....
something you wouldn't have expected to be there...IMO ...they seemed very organised ..considering there daughter was missing ...and anything could be happening to her......
He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
Processos, Volume 12, Page 231
Snippet From the Statement by Nelson Filipe Pacheco de Costa about the events of the night of 3rd May.
GNR Officer
One of the group contacted Sky News and the Embassy that night. He does not know if the parents made the call.
Upon leaving the apartment he saw various photographs of the little girl printed on normal A4 paper which had been printed at the reception as well as other photos printed on 10 x 15 photographic poster paper which could not have printed at the reception. This seemed unusual to him and he later confirmed that they could not have been printed at the reception.
Have you read the files? If so, I presume that you are aware of how they got printed.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 12:36:45 PM
The clearest evidence for abduction would be one in which a missing person alert is immediately issued, due to evidence of several witnesses, preferably with a snapshot of someone being stuffed into a car with evidence of a licence plate number and full descriptions.
How often does that happen?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 27, 2014, 12:42:04 PM
The clearest evidence for abduction would be one in which a missing person alert is immediately issued, due to evidence of several witnesses, preferably with a snapshot of someone being stuffed into a car with evidence of a licence plate number and full descriptions.
How often does that happen?
Like, if the parents phoned the police..... themselves, right away, or even, bothered to try....
Perhaps not evidence of abduction, but a lot more convincing, to me at least, than 'it was paedos wot dunnit, I hope her arms don't get cold'.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 12:43:25 PM
What irrefutable evidence for abduction was there for other cases?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 27, 2014, 12:45:20 PM
Inside the apartment, police forensic specialists proceed to lift finger and palm prints, a job that is preferably carried out during daylight hours. Others look for traces of blood, samples of fibres and hair. We notice with dismay that one of the technicians, who is working on the outside of the McCann children's bedroom window is not using the regulation suit, thus risking contaminating possible clues. These images of negligence start to circulate world-wide; this isn't, however, the usual behaviour of police judiciary technicians.
It's obvious that no one has broken in and the lock has not been forced. No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor. In the middle of this desert of clues, two prints are perfectly easily found: the very distinct mark of a palm print on the balcony window at the rear of the apartment, and a clearly visible one of fingers on the window pane of Madeleine's bedroom. The excellent quality of the palm print seemed suspicious to us. Later, analyses confirm our suspicions: it belonged to one of the officers who were present the previous night. (TOTL)
According to the PJ forensic report, they were looking for prints with sufficient points of reference for identification purposes. It doesn't mention potential glove marks at all: neither the absence of any, nor the presence of any.
What would have indicated glove marks as opposed to any other unidentifiable smudge mark?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 06:59:35 PM
Oft quoted is that when children are the victims of crime or abuse the perps are most likely to be their parents...family member ...friend of family..whilst tis is true it is interesting to note the definition of parent...
The term 'parent' is defined as a biological parent, step parent, adopted parent of the victim or the resident or non resident partner of the victim's parent
So the statistics are skewed by mom's new boyfriend who happens to have a serious drug problem...but for these statistics he is classed as a parent
That's the definition used by the NSPCC in the context of child homicide, isn't it?
The definitions used by the US and the UK in terms of child abduction aren't identical. Even in the few studies that I've seen on missing children in the UK, the criteria are different from one study to the other.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 27, 2014, 07:54:28 PM
According to the PJ forensic report, they were looking for prints with sufficient points of reference for identification purposes. It doesn't mention potential glove marks at all: neither the absence of any, nor the presence of any.
What would have indicated glove marks as opposed to any other unidentifiable smudge mark?
Of course they will look for glove marks because it is evidence of an abductor unless you wear gloves to open doors and windows in your own house.
TPN: What did you find at the apartment?
GA: No signs of forced entry. There were no signs of glove marks on the window. We compiled a report of the evidence we collected, but we are not here to accuse anyone.
TPN: What evidence was there that someone had been watching apartment 5A prior to Madeleine’s disappearance?
GA: We spoke to a number of people who came forward.
TPN: Anyone suspicious mentioned in these statements?
GA: No. Perhaps just a British musician we later tracked down.
TPN: At what stage did you become suspicious of the McCanns and why?
GA: There were a number of inconsistencies detected during the first interrogations.
TPN: Such as?
GA: We were initially told by the parents that when they checked on the children they would use the front door. But Kate later said they used the other door. Because had they used the front door, they would have detected someone had forced their way into the room [where Madeleine and the twins had been sleeping].
But during these initial rounds of questioning, my team and I believed these inconsistencies were due to the McCanns and their friends trying to cover the fact they had left their children unattended, along with their possible lack of trust in the Portuguese police. This had a lot of weight for me in the beginning, especially as the law in Britain is far tougher concerning the abandoning of children.
TPN: Did you look into sex offenders, and what was the outcome?
GA: It is very difficult that a paedophile pre-selected Madeleine. It had to be very well planned. But all known sexual predators were investigated.
TPN: Did you have any evidence that Robert Murat and the McCanns or their friends knew each other previous to Madeleine's disappearance?
GA: We tried to confirm this, but along with the assistance of the British police, we were unable to establish any connection. But we looked into all possibilities. Robert Murat purchased a last-minute ticket to come to Portugal a couple of days before Madeleine went missing, perhaps as it was cheaper to do so. But we had to investigate whether or not his visit coincided with Madeleine's disappearance a couple of days later and whether he had been contacted to come here.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2014, 08:58:51 PM
Of course they will look for glove marks because it is evidence of an abductor unless you wear gloves to open doors and windows in your own house.
TPN: What did you find at the apartment?
GA: No signs of forced entry. There were no signs of glove marks on the window. We compiled a report of the evidence we collected, but we are not here to accuse anyone.
TPN: What evidence was there that someone had been watching apartment 5A prior to Madeleine’s disappearance?
GA: We spoke to a number of people who came forward.
TPN: Anyone suspicious mentioned in these statements?
GA: No. Perhaps just a British musician we later tracked down.
TPN: At what stage did you become suspicious of the McCanns and why?
GA: There were a number of inconsistencies detected during the first interrogations.
TPN: Such as?
GA: We were initially told by the parents that when they checked on the children they would use the front door. But Kate later said they used the other door. Because had they used the front door, they would have detected someone had forced their way into the room [where Madeleine and the twins had been sleeping].
But during these initial rounds of questioning, my team and I believed these inconsistencies were due to the McCanns and their friends trying to cover the fact they had left their children unattended, along with their possible lack of trust in the Portuguese police. This had a lot of weight for me in the beginning, especially as the law in Britain is far tougher concerning the abandoning of children.
TPN: Did you look into sex offenders, and what was the outcome?
GA: It is very difficult that a paedophile pre-selected Madeleine. It had to be very well planned. But all known sexual predators were investigated.
TPN: Did you have any evidence that Robert Murat and the McCanns or their friends knew each other previous to Madeleine's disappearance?
GA: We tried to confirm this, but along with the assistance of the British police, we were unable to establish any connection. But we looked into all possibilities. Robert Murat purchased a last-minute ticket to come to Portugal a couple of days before Madeleine went missing, perhaps as it was cheaper to do so. But we had to investigate whether or not his visit coincided with Madeleine's disappearance a couple of days later and whether he had been contacted to come here.
I'm aware of that, but the PT forensic report makes no mention of glove marks... so where did he get his information from if it's not in the files (which I thought his account was supposed to be based on)?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2014, 09:10:13 PM
Of course they will look for glove marks because it is evidence of an abductor unless you wear gloves to open doors and windows in your own house.
TPN: What did you find at the apartment?
GA: No signs of forced entry. There were no signs of glove marks on the window. We compiled a report of the evidence we collected, but we are not here to accuse anyone.
TPN: What evidence was there that someone had been watching apartment 5A prior to Madeleine’s disappearance?
GA: We spoke to a number of people who came forward.
TPN: Anyone suspicious mentioned in these statements?
GA: No. Perhaps just a British musician we later tracked down.
TPN: At what stage did you become suspicious of the McCanns and why?
GA: There were a number of inconsistencies detected during the first interrogations.
TPN: Such as?
GA: We were initially told by the parents that when they checked on the children they would use the front door. But Kate later said they used the other door. Because had they used the front door, they would have detected someone had forced their way into the room [where Madeleine and the twins had been sleeping].
But during these initial rounds of questioning, my team and I believed these inconsistencies were due to the McCanns and their friends trying to cover the fact they had left their children unattended, along with their possible lack of trust in the Portuguese police. This had a lot of weight for me in the beginning, especially as the law in Britain is far tougher concerning the abandoning of children.
TPN: Did you look into sex offenders, and what was the outcome?
GA: It is very difficult that a paedophile pre-selected Madeleine. It had to be very well planned. But all known sexual predators were investigated.
TPN: Did you have any evidence that Robert Murat and the McCanns or their friends knew each other previous to Madeleine's disappearance?
GA: We tried to confirm this, but along with the assistance of the British police, we were unable to establish any connection. But we looked into all possibilities. Robert Murat purchased a last-minute ticket to come to Portugal a couple of days before Madeleine went missing, perhaps as it was cheaper to do so. But we had to investigate whether or not his visit coincided with Madeleine's disappearance a couple of days later and whether he had been contacted to come here.
We did this ... we did that ... Dr Amaral tends to imply that the “we” includes him ... even "my team and I" is designed to give that impression.
His team certainly were on the ground doing the work and reporting back ... but you would have thought he might have stirred himself just for curiosities sake to interview Madeleine's parents.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 27, 2014, 10:09:00 PM
We did this ... we did that ... Dr Amaral tends to imply that the “we” includes him ... even "my team and I" is designed to give that impression.
His team certainly were on the ground doing the work and reporting back ... but you would have thought he might have stirred himself just for curiosities sake to interview Madeleine's parents.
Amaral was after the right man all those years ago i.e. Smithman. The yard are after the same man. Everything connects to his secret mission - dog alerts, exact times, moving door, etc.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Moderator on September 30, 2014, 12:03:29 PM
I've added your suggested indicators in bold and my comments in regular type. My comments are not necessarily case-specific. They are mostly generic, with some case-specific reflections.
Adding a few of my own to the list.
* Unexplained fibres or hairs. There are hairs that have still not been identified. A sweep for hairs / fibres doesn't appear to have taken place throughout the flat. She could have been taken while in the bathroom or in her parents' bedroom, for example.
* Unexplained disturbance of objects. The only thing that seems unexplained is the door apparently being found further open than usual, although a breeze when one or other people walked in / out or a child walking out could possibly explain that.
* Abandoned belongings of the person. Clothes, bag, phone, jewellery, bike (for an adult or older child). Only pyjamas would apply in this case and none seem to have been recovered. However, the search of bins took place quite some time after with only a couple of municipal employees to attempt to cover the totality in a very short space of time. If the PJs had been made difficult to recognise, e.g. by burning or shredding, and mixed in with household rubbish, it seems unlikely that they would have been found. The search was, by all accounts, not a fingertip forensic search. PJs could also be weighted down and thrown down a well or in the sea or dumped elsewhere anyway.
* CCTV. This can often shed light in areas that have CCTV coverage and presumed trajectories / timings / suspected vehicles / unexplained presence in certain areas can be checked. CCTV isn't common in PT, let alone in sleepy villages. The PJ didn't seem to have checked existing security cameras thoroughly as a priority. The only one that might have shown something significant in the vicinity got wiped. The one checked in a nearby petrol station wasn't her. The one at the Paraiso café established the presence of the majority of the group at the time they'd stated, but nothing of direct significance.
A few others could be indicators:
* Unusual phone activity. This was partly checked at the time, but is now being investigated more thoroughly.
* Unfamiliar cars appearing to prowl or suddenly screech off. No sudden screeching appears to have been noted. "Prowling" is subjective and could simply mean someone innocently searching for a parking spot.
* Family / professional situation. No known history of familial abuse, complex family situations, desperate financial situations, mental illness, unwanted babies, known enemies in search of revenge, kidnapping for political or financial purposes, etc.
* Indicators related to previous crimes in the area. - Numerous burglaries or attempted ones had taken place.
- Several assaults or attempted ones on other children had taken place in the area, some of which involved entry to the living space of the families involved, even when parents were there.
- The lack of resources to overhaul the judicial system, a potential lack of coordination between police forces and the absence of a sexual offenders and DNA database may mean that suspects are still out there, moving within PT or even in other European states, or could even be in jail for unrelated offences.
ETA:
* Cigarette butts on a balcony that could have been a potential vantage point. These don't appear to have been collected.
This is the type of post I like to see, structured and informative and to the point. Great work Carana.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 07, 2014, 07:19:07 PM
Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?
Evidence of an abduction can include the following:
* A missing person. * Stolen property. * A break-in or forced entry. * Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets. * Persons acting suspiciously nearby. * A ransom demand. * Sightings of the missing person.
Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.
Those who shout the loudest at the lack of evidence of an abduction have been the quietest on this thread.
Sooo... Bump.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 07, 2014, 07:23:03 PM
One of my own points that I would add to concerns:
* Unexplained disturbance of objects. The only thing that seems unexplained is the door apparently being found further open than usual, although a breeze when one or other people walked in / out or a child walking out could possibly explain that.
I'd add the fully open window / shutter witnessed by Kate and Gerry. However, I agree that there were no independent witnesses who saw them fully open at the time, only partially so.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Brietta on November 07, 2014, 09:40:27 PM
It was not immediately apparent to Karla T’s ( mother's changed name, but I will call the child the same) parents that there was anything amiss in the immediate aftermath of her assault. Only later when a bruise in the shape of a handprint came out on her face was it discovered what had happened to her and that her abductor had first tried to gain entry via a window using a ladder.
Thankfully she had not been taken further afield nor was she killed … but one wonders what would have happened had she not been returned to her room.
Despite her testimony about the intruder and DNA on her top which eventually identified her abductor, Karla T’s father and brother came under suspicion.
Had she not been there to tell what happened and had there been no corroborating forensics what would we have had? Most certainly accusation of a ‘simulated’ abduction … with either her father or brother being accused of staging the scene and disposing of Karla T’s body.
The only evidence of an intruder was the child's story and the foreign DNA on the child’s top.
If she had been taken what weight would the her father’s ‘evidence’ have carried about being alerted by the open front door? and the ‘simulation’ of the ladder and attempt at entry via the window?
Porter girl abducted from bedroom, assaulted
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:33 am | Updated: 10:29 am, Tue Mar 29, 2011.
By VANESA BRASHIER
>>snip<<
“When a child predator sets his sights on a victim, nothing will stand in his way. Not a locked door, a locked window or even an occupied house.”
Karla T., whose name has been changed to protect her family’s privacy, knows all about such monsters.
In July 2010, while she and her family were sleeping in their Porter, Texas home, a man broke in and stole her 6-year-old daughter’s innocence.
The child was sexually assaulted before being released. When he freed the girl outside her home, the kidnapper reportedly warned: “Tell your parents what I did and I will come back and hurt them.”
The crime wasn’t noticed until hours later. It might have been overlooked altogether had the kidnapper not left a tell-tale sign.
The morning after the assault, Karla’s husband was the first to see that things were not quite right. When he walked into the dining room to put on his boots to go to work, the front door was standing wide open.
Alarmed, he ran to his children’s rooms to see if they were OK. When he found them both asleep in their beds, he locked the front door and left for work, assuming the wind must have blown open the front door during the overnight hours.
>>snip<<
Home was no longer safe and based on the evidence found around the home, it appeared that the predator might have first attempted to gain access to the child through her bedroom window.
“We found that the pool ladder had been placed outside her bedroom. It appears he also tried to pry open a window with a butter knife,” said Karla.
When that failed, he took a more direct path to the child through the front door.
With an unknown predator now targeting her daughter, Karla took drastic steps and moved the two of them in with a relative.
>>snip<< An unintentional victim of the crime against the 6-year-old girl was her brother, who in the past had always been her protector. After his sister’s attack and before a suspect was named, he was, by his own admission, the focus of the law enforcement investigation.
Looking back now, he knows why and even blames himself a little.
At around the time his 6-year-old sister was abducted, he had been wearing headphones and playing video games. He and his mother now speculate about whether or not the kidnapper could have walked right past him because he was so engrossed in the game.
“The police had perfectly good reasons for being suspicious of me. I was in the next room and I was the last one to see her before bedtime,” he said. “But after a while they seemed to throw out the evidence. I knew I was their target.”
Before this incident happened, “I had a lot of respect for law enforcement. I wanted to be a police officer. Now I can’t help but see a cop and think, ‘How is he going to mess up my life,’” he said.
His advice now for friends who are questioned by police: “Get a lawyer before talking to police. Being in that room for questioning, just with them, they can say and do anything they want. Now I know that basically they have a job and they need to get it done.
“And I know why defense attorneys exist,” he said.
Karla is more forgiving even though it took a few months to entirely clear her husband and son of any wrongdoing. She even praises the Montgomery County sheriff’s detectives who investigated her daughter’s case.
“The detective in the case, Ken Bivens, has been a godsend. If not for the work of Bivens, the other detectives and the forensic scientists, we would still not know who hurt my daughter," said Karla.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 07, 2014, 09:53:19 PM
This section here from the channel 4 despatches documentary they talk about what looks like 2 thumb prints on the outside of the shutters which they believe were most likely opened from the inside. Were these prints matched? Can't find anything...
Skip forward to 36.02:
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2014, 10:20:57 PM
What's the one piece of evidence you would 100% find following an abduction...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 07, 2014, 10:39:38 PM
It was not immediately apparent to Karla T’s ( mother's changed name, but I will call the child the same) parents that there was anything amiss in the immediate aftermath of her assault. Only later when a bruise in the shape of a handprint came out on her face was it discovered what had happened to her and that her abductor had first tried to gain entry via a window using a ladder.
Thankfully she had not been taken further afield nor was she killed … but one wonders what would have happened had she not been returned to her room.
Despite her testimony about the intruder and DNA on her top which eventually identified her abductor, Karla T’s father and brother came under suspicion.
Had she not been there to tell what happened and had there been no corroborating forensics what would we have had? Most certainly accusation of a ‘simulated’ abduction … with either her father or brother being accused of staging the scene and disposing of Karla T’s body.
The only evidence of an intruder was the child's story and the foreign DNA on the child’s top.
If she had been taken what weight would the her father’s ‘evidence’ have carried about being alerted by the open front door? and the ‘simulation’ of the ladder and attempt at entry via the window?
Porter girl abducted from bedroom, assaulted
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:33 am | Updated: 10:29 am, Tue Mar 29, 2011.
By VANESA BRASHIER
>>snip<<
“When a child predator sets his sights on a victim, nothing will stand in his way. Not a locked door, a locked window or even an occupied house.”
Karla T., whose name has been changed to protect her family’s privacy, knows all about such monsters.
In July 2010, while she and her family were sleeping in their Porter, Texas home, a man broke in and stole her 6-year-old daughter’s innocence.
The child was sexually assaulted before being released. When he freed the girl outside her home, the kidnapper reportedly warned: “Tell your parents what I did and I will come back and hurt them.”
The crime wasn’t noticed until hours later. It might have been overlooked altogether had the kidnapper not left a tell-tale sign.
The morning after the assault, Karla’s husband was the first to see that things were not quite right. When he walked into the dining room to put on his boots to go to work, the front door was standing wide open.
Alarmed, he ran to his children’s rooms to see if they were OK. When he found them both asleep in their beds, he locked the front door and left for work, assuming the wind must have blown open the front door during the overnight hours.
>>snip<<
Home was no longer safe and based on the evidence found around the home, it appeared that the predator might have first attempted to gain access to the child through her bedroom window.
“We found that the pool ladder had been placed outside her bedroom. It appears he also tried to pry open a window with a butter knife,” said Karla.
When that failed, he took a more direct path to the child through the front door.
With an unknown predator now targeting her daughter, Karla took drastic steps and moved the two of them in with a relative.
>>snip<< An unintentional victim of the crime against the 6-year-old girl was her brother, who in the past had always been her protector. After his sister’s attack and before a suspect was named, he was, by his own admission, the focus of the law enforcement investigation.
Looking back now, he knows why and even blames himself a little.
At around the time his 6-year-old sister was abducted, he had been wearing headphones and playing video games. He and his mother now speculate about whether or not the kidnapper could have walked right past him because he was so engrossed in the game.
“The police had perfectly good reasons for being suspicious of me. I was in the next room and I was the last one to see her before bedtime,” he said. “But after a while they seemed to throw out the evidence. I knew I was their target.”
Before this incident happened, “I had a lot of respect for law enforcement. I wanted to be a police officer. Now I can’t help but see a cop and think, ‘How is he going to mess up my life,’” he said.
His advice now for friends who are questioned by police: “Get a lawyer before talking to police. Being in that room for questioning, just with them, they can say and do anything they want. Now I know that basically they have a job and they need to get it done.
“And I know why defense attorneys exist,” he said.
Karla is more forgiving even though it took a few months to entirely clear her husband and son of any wrongdoing. She even praises the Montgomery County sheriff’s detectives who investigated her daughter’s case.
“The detective in the case, Ken Bivens, has been a godsend. If not for the work of Bivens, the other detectives and the forensic scientists, we would still not know who hurt my daughter," said Karla.
Very interesting article, thanks for posting. It should provide food for thought for those who sneeringly and repeatedly demand evidence of abduction on this forum...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 07, 2014, 11:01:58 PM
This is why i can't help but think it hurt the McCanns by not staying in Portugal and satisfying the demands of the investigation... they clearly needed to be eliminated so it could progress...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2014, 11:03:15 PM
This is why i can't help but think it hurt the McCanns by not staying in Portugal and satisfying the demands of the investigation... they clearly needed to be eliminated so it could progress...
the investigation has progressed
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 07, 2014, 11:14:33 PM
but previously stalled for a long time...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2014, 11:27:23 PM
If Karla T had not been returned the only clue to abduction would have been her father’s statement about seeing the open front door. Not good enough for some who think the last person to be believed is a parent.
Due diligence was carried out as her father and brother seem to have been subjected to rigorous questioning and I think the outlook could have been very bleak without the forensic evidence on the child herself. http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/cleveland/news/article_4187ed83-fed3-5276-b6c2-2166c8720c11.html
If Troy Morley hadn’t been seen and apprehended by the child’s father outside their home … apart from the trauma of their child being missing … the parents would have been subjected to the closest scrutiny possible to determine if they had played a role in her disappearance.
I doubt if in either case there would have been enough evidence to determine exactly what had happened (a) if one child had not been returned by the abductor ... imo the child was the target of this home invasion. (b) if the abduction had not been prevented by the intervention of the child’s father ... imo this was an attempted burglary in which the child was taken.
I think every case is different and the MO of the perpetrator will be tailored to suit the circumstances; I think that in cases where it is highly unlikely that the person vanished of his\her own volition, abduction has to be considered as the most logical option.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 08, 2014, 12:22:34 PM
What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
The primary piece of evidence would be a missing person I suppose. All abductions result in a missing person but not all missing persons have been abducted. So what other evidence is required to satisfy the abduction thesis in this particular case? All the others a very interesting but a bit off piste as one might say.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2014, 12:23:40 PM
I shudder to think of what The Media and Public Opinion would have done to this family if the child had vanished without trace. And I doubt that The Police would have helped them much.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: John on November 08, 2014, 03:22:21 PM
This is why i can't help but think it hurt the McCanns by not staying in Portugal and satisfying the demands of the investigation... they clearly needed to be eliminated so it could progress...
I totally agree, at least one of them should have maintained a presence and encouraged the Portuguese in a renewed search.
Evidence of an abduction can include the following:
* A missing person. * Stolen property. * A break-in or forced entry. * Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets. * Persons acting suspiciously nearby. * A ransom demand. * Sightings of the missing person.
Only one of the above was apparent in Madeleine's disappearance but a missing child can mean many things including walked off by herself, accidental death followed by removal of the remains or even family or stranger abduction.
No evidence except for a missing child presents a challenge for investigators. They have to look at all scenarios including parental participation and that is exactly what the English and Portuguese police did. Madeleine's parents should not have viewed this in the negative way they did, they should have cooperated fully with the PJ instead of thwarting them.
"They lost the opportunity to prove their own innocence" AG Archiving Report
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 04:18:35 PM
I totally agree, at least one of them should have maintained a presence and encouraged the Portuguese in a renewed search.
Evidence of an abduction can include the following:
* A missing person. * Stolen property. * A break-in or forced entry. * Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets. * Persons acting suspiciously nearby. * A ransom demand. * Sightings of the missing person.
Only one of the above was apparent in Madeleine's disappearance but a missing child can mean many things including walked off by herself, accidental death followed by removal of the remains or even family or stranger abduction.
No evidence except for a missing child presents a challenge for investigators. They have to look at all scenarios including parental participation and that is exactly what the English and Portuguese police did. Madeleine's parents should not have viewed this in the negative way they did, they should have cooperated fully with the PJ instead of thwarting them.
"They lost the opportunity to prove their own innocence" AG Archiving Report
There are more indicators than you've mentioned, John.
The McCanns didn't "thwart" the investigation: the McCanns never refused to go back, in fact they were legally obliged to do so if requested. The friends decided not to go back in the end - and Jez didn't want to go back, either.
We already have a long thread on here on the issue of whether a reenactment would have proven their innocence or not. I don't see how it could have done.
For example, if the precise angle of the door, the wind direction and extent of gust at that moment, curtains whooshing and the door slamming couldn't be reproduced, or was difficult to reproduce, then the assumption would have been that Kate was lying. If the door did slam, then it would have been "Ok, maybe" - but it still wouldn't have proven that that is what happened on the night.
It is known that Jez, Gerry and Jane don't agree on exactly where everyone was standing. Getting Jane to flipflop past two men in a fake and tense situation to see if they could hear / see her or not is silly as they'd know what to expect and would unconsciously be concentrating. In any case, it's irrelevant now as someone believed to be Tannerman and child have been identified. If the PJ had checked the creche records, they might have found that out themselves.
Even in the best case scenario of "Ok, maybe", the PJ would not have then gone back to the drawing board to look for new suspects - there was no time left. Rebelo was tying up loose ends to see whether there were grounds for charging them or not. The clock was ticking very fast as the investigation had to be wound up one way or another due to legal time limits. And the time limit had already been exceptionally extended in order to process the results of the rogatory interviews.
Rebelo didn't answer Kate's letter begging for news, so what would staying on in Portugal have achieved? At that point, they weren't aware of the child sexual assaults, and it's not clear that the PJ did either back then as the GNR had apparently handled them (or rather hadn't).
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 08, 2014, 05:34:35 PM
^ but this is just an Internet forum making judgements on whether a reenactment would have helped. If the Portuguese police force believed it would have done then I choose to take the position of the professionals. And remember Kate had already refused to answer her questions when interviewed as an arguido under the advice of her lawyer. Would she have agreed at a later date? Who knows imo...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 06:14:38 PM
^ but this is just an Internet forum making judgements on whether a reenactment would have helped. If the Portuguese police force believed it would have done then I choose to take the position of the professionals. And remember Kate had already refused to answer her questions when interviewed as an arguido under the advice of her lawyer. Would she have agreed at a later date? Who knows imo...
There were a few issues that they thought needed clarification, fair enough. My point, though, is that it would not have proven the McCanns' innocence, nor would it have sent the PJ back to the drawing board in hunting for a stranger abductor.
The door slamming issue and the JT/Gerry/Jez issue seem to have been the main ones. However, if they had checked the creche records, they would have found the answer to that question. The door slamming didn't really require Kate to stand there willing for the right gust of wind to blow on an arbitrary evening.
On the whole, I find Rebelo to have done a reasonable job in the circumstances and was quite methodical, but he inherited a chaotic investigation. João Carlos seems to have been an OK cop as well, even though there were a few mistakes.
By the time of the proposed reconstruction, everyone had lost faith and apparently the proposed date had been leaked to the press. I doubt that Rebelo did that, but someone seemingly did, according to Russell.
To me, Rebelo comes across as a box-ticker in the sense of tying up loose ends. The team spent ages, for example, checking out where the ink for the photos could have come from, when it would have been far simpler to just ask.
IMO, Rebelo's main job was to pick up the pieces and verify whether there were any grounds to charge the McCanns or Murat, or shelve the case, as they had already been made arguidos, poor old Murat had been stuck in limbo for ages, and time was running out.
There was no time to go back to square one. The only thing that would have prolonged the investigation even further is if Madeleine had suddenly turned up somewhere, or someone had made a spontaneous confession, which didn't happen.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2014, 06:35:46 PM
^ but this is just an Internet forum making judgements on whether a reenactment would have helped. If the Portuguese police force believed it would have done then I choose to take the position of the professionals. And remember Kate had already refused to answer her questions when interviewed as an arguido under the advice of her lawyer. Would she have agreed at a later date? Who knows imo...
We now know that these professionals had misunderstood the evidence of the dogs and actually thought the mccanns were guilty...I fully support the decision to leave Portugal...staying would not have helped to find maddie
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2014, 06:39:05 PM
Evidence would only be found with a proper forensic check...I don't think the pj carried this out
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2014, 06:49:28 PM
We now know that these professionals had misunderstood the evidence of the dogs and actually thought the mccanns were guilty...I fully support the decision to leave Portugal...staying would not have helped to find maddie
I misunderstood the supposed evidence of the dogs, having only seen the edited videos and read only the garbled information leaked to The Press. A lot of people did.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 07:00:50 PM
I misunderstood the supposed evidence of the dogs, having only seen the edited videos and read only the garbled information leaked to The Press. A lot of people did.
But you weren't part of Amaral's PJ team, Eleanor, unless you're hiding something from us. ;)
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 07:04:27 PM
I think we're drifting into OT land. Again.
Eleanor posted an interesting link to a US case further up.
I agree with Brietta and others that concrete evidence of an abduction is quite rare.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2014, 07:11:28 PM
But you weren't part of Amaral's PJ team, Eleanor, unless you're hiding something from us. ;)
Amaral and his team had far more information and evidence than I did, which led me to suspect that what we were fed was a deliberate attempt to affect Public Opinion. Allegedly and In My Opinion, of course.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2014, 07:14:54 PM
Eleanor posted an interesting link to a US case further up.
I agree with Brietta and others that concrete evidence of an abduction is quite rare.
Yes. This American Case is a perfect example. If the father hadn't managed to rescue his daughter, what evidence of abduction would there have been? Who would have believed the family?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 08, 2014, 07:15:38 PM
Did the Portuguese police make mistakes in the process of the investigation? I'm sure they did, but this does not make them totally incompetent. Especially given the location - a small coastal resort in Portugal. If you look at UK major investigations there have been mistakes but perhaps of a different nature. For example, in the Soham murders in a rural village there were mistakes made by the local police including I believe a slow response time in putting out an alert.
Anyway, if the UK police were in charge of this investigation they would I assume suspect the McCanns at some stage. Likely straight away to eliminate them from the inquiry. Seems to me the Portuguese had not go to that stage yet and when the new lead detective took over the case it was something of a fresh start and then the investigation had a chance to review and progress as evidence/logic/procedure dictates. A good opportunity imo for innocent parents to offer every assistance. If the tapas 7 were warned that this was just an attempt to build a case against them or the McCanns rather then possible elimination I can understand their trepidation. Perhaps the McCanns did try to cooperate at this stage and offer every assistance. Something else that seriously hampered this case was the media here and in Portugal imo.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2014, 07:21:23 PM
Did the Portuguese police make mistakes in the process of the investigation? I'm sure they did, but this does not make them totally incompetent. Especially given the location - a small coastal resort in Portugal. If you look at UK major investigations there have been mistakes but perhaps of a different nature. For example, in the Soham murders in a rural village there were mistakes made by the local police including I believe a slow response time in putting out an alert.
Anyway, if the UK police were in charge of this investigation they would I assume suspect the McCanns at some stage. Likely straight away to eliminate them from the inquiry. Seems to me the Portuguese had not go to that stage yet and when the new lead detective took over the case it was something of a fresh start and then the investigation had a chance to review and progress as evidence/logic/procedure dictates. A good opportunity imo for innocent parents to offer every assistance. If the tapas 7 were warned that this was just an attempt to build a case against them or the McCanns rather then possible elimination I can understand their trepidation. Perhaps the McCanns did try to cooperate at this stage and offer every assistance. Something else that seriously hampered this case was the media here and in Portugal imo.
Kate and Gerry had already answered hours of questions...they had co operated...how would anyone else feel in tis situation...having lost their daughter...now made suspects...fearful of being arrested and held in custody..
I don't blame them one bit
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Amaral and his team had far more information and evidence than I did, which led me to suspect that what we were fed was a deliberate attempt to affect Public Opinion. Allegedly and In My Opinion, of course.
I still find it extraordinary that Amaral's team didn't seem to question why Eddie didn't react to the boot.
None of us had a clue what the so-called damning forensic evidence was until after the case was shelved.
Even Sandra Felgueiras expressed her astonishment that the forensics meant zilch... in an interview that no one had, ahem, time to translate.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 08, 2014, 07:44:16 PM
Kate and Gerry had already answered hours of questions...they had co operated...how would anyone else feel in tis situation...having lost their daughter...now made suspects...fearful of being arrested and held in custody..
I don't blame them one bit
Perhaps. And, maybe their lawyers advised them against it. Incredible they were allowed to leave Portugal considering they were suspects at the time. If this happened it the UK or they were Portuguese obviously you would have nowhere to go.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2014, 07:44:50 PM
Perhaps. And, maybe their lawyers advised them against it. Incredible they were allowed to leave Portugal considering they were suspects at the time. If this happened it the UK or they were Portuguese obviously you would have nowhere to go.
If you look at the facts it wasn't incredible...the PJ had no evidence against them
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 08, 2014, 07:51:52 PM
Yet were they not still prime suspects at this point?
Also I'm a bit murky as what actually equates to evidence but technically the dog alerts were evidence no?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: John on November 08, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Kate and Gerry had already answered hours of questions...they had co operated...how would anyone else feel in tis situation...having lost their daughter...now made suspects...fearful of being arrested and held in custody..
I don't blame them one bit
So why did they stop cooperating? Were the cops getting too close to the truth maybe?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 08, 2014, 08:02:40 PM
The fact is they didn't go back to take part in the requested police reconstitution even after agreeing to do so. We might never know what went on between them and the rest of the tapas group because it is all cloaked in secrecy. All we are told according to the files is that several of the tapas group refused to take part. In my opinion the Portuguese should have dragged every one of them back kicking and screaming if need be.
You mean you think the police should have forced them by law to take part in a reconstruction whose sole purpose was to provide evidence against them? Wow, fascist or what!
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 08:02:54 PM
I suspect they only saw what they wanted to see. And who knew which dog was which in those days?
Erm, the PJ were with the dogs while Grime was there. He is recorded on video as saying that he did not intend to put Eddie in the boot, but in the translation the "not" got missed out.
Shouldn't Amaral and Tavares de Almeida and whoever else have NOTICED that Eddie wasn't in the boot, despite the error in translation, from reviewing the footage even if they were not all physically present?
The two dogs don't have spots in the same places and the amount of white between the ears is different. Eddie actually had more white between his ears...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: John on November 08, 2014, 08:08:46 PM
There are more indicators than you've mentioned, John.
The McCanns didn't "thwart" the investigation: the McCanns never refused to go back, in fact they were legally obliged to do so if requested. The friends decided not to go back in the end - and Jez didn't want to go back, either.
We already have a long thread on here on the issue of whether a reenactment would have proven their innocence or not. I don't see how it could have done.
For example, if the precise angle of the door, the wind direction and extent of gust at that moment, curtains whooshing and the door slamming couldn't be reproduced, or was difficult to reproduce, then the assumption would have been that Kate was lying. If the door did slam, then it would have been "Ok, maybe" - but it still wouldn't have proven that that is what happened on the night.
It is known that Jez, Gerry and Jane don't agree on exactly where everyone was standing. Getting Jane to flipflop past two men in a fake and tense situation to see if they could hear / see her or not is silly as they'd know what to expect and would unconsciously be concentrating. In any case, it's irrelevant now as someone believed to be Tannerman and child have been identified. If the PJ had checked the creche records, they might have found that out themselves.
Even in the best case scenario of "Ok, maybe", the PJ would not have then gone back to the drawing board to look for new suspects - there was no time left. Rebelo was tying up loose ends to see whether there were grounds for charging them or not. The clock was ticking very fast as the investigation had to be wound up one way or another due to legal time limits. And the time limit had already been exceptionally extended in order to process the results of the rogatory interviews.
Rebelo didn't answer Kate's letter begging for news, so what would staying on in Portugal have achieved? At that point, they weren't aware of the child sexual assaults, and it's not clear that the PJ did either back then as the GNR had apparently handled them (or rather hadn't).
The fact is they didn't go back to take part in the requested police reconstitution even after agreeing to do so. We might never know what went on between them and the rest of the tapas group because it is all cloaked in secrecy. All we are told according to the files is that several of the tapas group refused to take part. In my opinion the Portuguese should have dragged every one of them back kicking and screaming if need be.
Only police officers know how useful a reconstruction or a reconstitution can be. There is much which can be found out when participants are confronted by others who were there on the night and dispute their version of events. Remember the very simple confrontation between Gerry and Jane? Now imaging bringing Wilkins into the equation and you have the classic result. Now imagine the same scenario but encompassing several hours and you have a massive opportunity for finding fault with certain witnesses evidence. Liars are nearly always exposed in such an exercise.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 08:09:31 PM
The fact is they didn't go back to take part in the requested police reconstitution even after agreeing to do so. We might never know what went on between them and the rest of the tapas group because it is all cloaked in secrecy. All we are told according to the files is that several of the tapas group refused to take part. In my opinion the Portuguese should have dragged every one of them back kicking and screaming if need be.
And even if that had happened, what would the results have been, in your opinion? Would a door slamming or not slamming on an arbitrary evening prove that someone was being truthful or was lying ?
Would a disagreement about who was standing where in the JT/Gerry/Jez episode and attempting to recreate two men deep in conversation with JT passing by prove anything?
What about all the OC workers who saw them at dinner that night and witnessed the ensuing chaos? Shouldn't they have been there as well?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 08, 2014, 08:10:01 PM
Erm, the PJ were with the dogs while Grime was there. He is recorded on video as saying that he did not intend to put Eddie in the boot, but in the translation the "not" got missed out.
Shouldn't Amaral and Tavares de Almeida and whoever else have NOTICED that Eddie wasn't in the boot, despite the error in translation, from reviewing the footage even if they were not all physically present?
The two dogs don't have spots in the same places and the amount of white between the ears is different. Eddie actually had more white between his ears...
It wasn't Crufts, ffs.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2014, 08:11:22 PM
So why did they stop cooperating? Were the cops getting too close to the truth maybe?
No the cops were getting too close to arresting the McCanns and then could have held them for up to 12 months waiting trial. The McCanns had been told that if they were Portuguese they would be in jail..no mistake. The McCanns did absolutely the right thing to get out.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 08, 2014, 08:11:53 PM
And even if that had happened, what would the results have been, in your opinion? Would a door slamming or not slamming on an arbitrary evening prove that someone was being truthful or was lying ?
Would a disagreement about who was standing where in the JT/Gerry/Jez episode and attempting to recreate two men deep in conversation with JT passing by prove anything?
What about all the OC workers who saw them at dinner that night and witnessed the ensuing chaos? Shouldn't they have been there as well?
Alfred was just saying that it would provide evidence against them.
Maybe he can tell you.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 08, 2014, 08:12:33 PM
And even if that had happened, what would the results have been, in your opinion? Would a door slamming or not slamming on an arbitrary evening prove that someone was being truthful or was lying ?
Would a disagreement about who was standing where in the JT/Gerry/Jez episode and attempting to recreate two men deep in conversation with JT passing by prove anything?
What about all the OC workers who saw them at dinner that night and witnessed the ensuing chaos? Shouldn't they have been there as well?
Someone on this board (can't remember who) is of the view that everyone who was in PdL that night should be brought back to do a reconstruction. Cheaper and easier to use a time machine I reckon.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: John on November 08, 2014, 08:12:42 PM
We now know that these professionals had misunderstood the evidence of the dogs and actually thought the mccanns were guilty...I fully support the decision to leave Portugal...staying would not have helped to find maddie
Absolutely incorrect, nobody yet knows what non blood scent Eddie alerted to and alert he did. That said though, the dog handler seems pretty well convinced as to what it represented.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 08:13:26 PM
John, it would have made sense shortly after the events. OC staff were still there, as were some of the tourists. It could have jogged people's memories of what exactly happened when. Amaral's excuse for not organising it at the time is lamentable.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 08:16:02 PM
Absolutely incorrect, nobody yet knows what non blood scent Eddie alerted to and alert he did. That said though, the dog handler seems pretty well convinced as to what it represented.
The dog handlers statement is anything but convincing....suggestive is not convincing
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: John on November 08, 2014, 08:19:24 PM
Grime has not confirmed the reason for the alert...the PJ thought it proved something..it didn't
Knowing something and proving it are two different things.
By the way, what makes you think that SY believe the most probable explanation for Madeleine's disappearance is stranger abduction when they have spent a week digging up PdL looking for her grave?
Looks like nobody can provide any evidence solely related to abduction?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 08, 2014, 08:29:25 PM
Knowing something and proving it are two different things.
By the way, what makes you think that SY believe the most probable explanation for Madeleine's disappearance is stranger abduction when they have spent a week digging up PdL looking for her grave?
Looks like nobody can provide any evidence solely related to abduction?
I have never understood why people think SY digging up PdL is an indication that they are not treating the case as one of stranger abduction, can you please explain?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
Knowing something and proving it are two different things.
By the way, what makes you think that SY believe the most probable explanation for Madeleine's disappearance is stranger abduction when they have spent a week digging up PdL looking for her grave?
Looks like nobody can provide any evidence solely related to abduction?
Erm, the title of this thread is "What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?"...
Often, there simply isn't any.
What's your explanation for the fact that there are numerous hairs which don't correspond to anyone known to have been there for legitimate reasons?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2014, 08:40:20 PM
You mean you think the police should have forced them by law to take part in a reconstruction whose sole purpose was to provide evidence against them? Wow, fascist or what!
So you think it was right for them to be above the law? Are there any other cases where witnesses have refused to take part in a police reconstruction?
"Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children's room, the window was open, the blind had been forced and Madeleine had disappeared." (Michelle Thompson)
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 08, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
So you think it was right for them to be above the law? Are there any other cases where witnesses have refused to take part in a police reconstruction?
"Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children's room, the window was open, the blind had been forced and Madeleine had disappeared." (Michelle Thompson)
Er, how were they above the law then? Explain.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2014, 09:12:37 PM
Knowing something and proving it are two different things.
By the way, what makes you think that SY believe the most probable explanation for Madeleine's disappearance is stranger abduction when they have spent a week digging up PdL looking for her grave?
Looks like nobody can provide any evidence solely related to abduction?
knowing something without being able to prove it is called an opinion..
Abducted and murdered is the most probable option by a million miles... I know its true but I can't prove it, so that should be quite acceptable
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2014, 09:29:26 PM
Did you find any other examples of witnesses not doing a police reconstruction?
10 August
SF: You feel you are being treated as a suspect, Kate?
KM: I haven't been made to feel like that, no, but it's not that... you know, it's not... we know that everybody has to be looked at; I mean, that's part of any investigation and, you know, if... if... if it means that, you know... we've... we've... all along we've cooperated and I think, you know, the police have to do their job properly.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
Knowing something and proving it are two different things.
By the way, what makes you think that SY believe the most probable explanation for Madeleine's disappearance is stranger abduction when they have spent a week digging up PdL looking for her grave?
Looks like nobody can provide any evidence solely related to abduction?
I have got a lot of pointers from after the abduction. Things that would only have happened had there been an abduction, but I aint sharing them ... and until proven they cannot be considered evidence per se, I think
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 08, 2014, 10:07:32 PM
From what I've heard and been able to verify to some degree I don't think there is any evidence of abduction or staging by the parents. With the window it is a bone of contention and the dogs are just dogs. Dogs are stupid. They would poo all over the floor if they weren't told not to. Although I think they likely did detect cadaver scent there are also plausible explanations for why it was there too. You can't expect someone not to retain the right to innocence on that basis.
Both scenarios are possible imo. And the parents could very well have had their child abducted whilst having this monkey of suspicion on their back too. I am suspicious of the parents, but that is the same reason why they needed to be eliminated from the Portuguese inquiry. If indeed they have been eliminated from the SY inquiry it would definitely be wise imo for police after the inquiry is over to comment more on this given the discussion on the internet for the sake of the parents.
Does anyone think they would have been able to move forward with this investigation under these conditions if you were in charge?? The Portuguese did not seem able to for sure.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 08, 2014, 10:18:16 PM
Did you find any other examples of witnesses not doing a police reconstruction?
10 August
SF: You feel you are being treated as a suspect, Kate?
KM: I haven't been made to feel like that, no, but it's not that... you know, it's not... we know that everybody has to be looked at; I mean, that's part of any investigation and, you know, if... if... if it means that, you know... we've... we've... all along we've cooperated and I think, you know, the police have to do their job properly.
So how were they above the law then?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 08, 2014, 10:21:01 PM
I have got a lot of pointers from after the abduction. Things that would only have happened had there been an abduction, but I aint sharing them ... and until proven they cannot be considered evidence per se, I think
If you don't share them, I don't think they can be considered at all...
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2014, 10:24:53 PM
From what I've heard and been able to verify to some degree I don't think there is any evidence of abduction or staging by the parents. With the window it is a bone of contention and the dogs are just dogs. Dogs are stupid. They would poo all over the floor if they weren't told not to. Although I think they likely did detect cadaver scent there are also plausible explanations for why it was there too. You can't expect someone not to retain the right to innocence on that basis.
Both scenarios are possible imo. And the parents could very well have had their child abducted whilst having this monkey of suspicion on their back too. I am suspicious of the parents, but that is the same reason why they needed to be eliminated from the Portuguese inquiry. If indeed they have been eliminated from the SY inquiry it would definitely be wise imo for police after the inquiry is over to comment more on this given the discussion on the internet for the sake of the parents.
Does anyone think they would have been able to move forward with this investigation under these conditions if you were in charge?? The Portuguese did not seem able to for sure.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean in that last sentence. Who is "they" and what "conditions"?
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: lordpookles on November 08, 2014, 10:52:46 PM
that didn't make sense. Out of context. Mean't if you were in charge of the Portuguese investigation and you had not yet eliminated the parents and you could not get their holiday friends to cooperate plus one of the chief suspects had not answered questions in your previous interrogation some of which were being asked for the first time.
Title: Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2014, 10:58:33 PM