Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Angelo222 on October 29, 2014, 01:01:14 PM
Title: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 29, 2014, 01:01:14 PM
From the beginning the McCann's bravely promised Maddie that they would not return home without her and I for one admired their tenacity for doing so.
However, this was all to change when they were made arguidos or official suspects in her disappearance. The moment their official police interviews had been concluded (an interview in which Kate McCann exercised her right to silence) they sought permission to leave Portugal. They were fast tracked through Faro Airport and were never again to spend any significant time in Praia da Luz.
Did this sudden turnaround and the flight which followed it engender suspicion?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2014, 01:17:17 PM
From the beginning the McCann's bravely promised Maddie that they would not return home without her and I for one admired their tenacity for doing so.
However, this was all to change when they were made arguidos or official suspects in her disappearance. The moment their official police interviews had been concluded (an interview in which Kate McCann exercised her right to silence) they sought permission to leave Portugal. They were fast tracked through Faro Airport and were never again to spend any significant time in Praia da Luz.
Did this sudden turnaround and the flight which followed it engender suspicion?
If you accept the after the event tales that the raison d'etre of the entire Portuguese Police and nation was to "fit up" innocent people without proper trial and legal representation the place being a totally bent banana republic (pardon pun) then it is no surprise they legged it we all would if we could.
One has to observe however that all the haraz about bent coppers la de bloody dah seems to have been put about after the event to justify legging it. IMHO of course
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 29, 2014, 01:29:14 PM
They had nothing to fear from a police investigation or at least that was the spin being put on it by their media machine yet they chose to do a runner. I would have thought they would have wanted to clear their names but in the event lost that opportunity as was reported by the Attorney General in his archiving report.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: lordpookles on October 29, 2014, 01:32:04 PM
It basically closed down the Portuguese investigation seemingly. But if you had two other young children you were responsible for too you too might well decide to leave... Kate talks about this for quite a bit in her book...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 29, 2014, 01:59:33 PM
It basically closed down the Portuguese investigation seemingly. But if you had two other young children you were responsible for too you too might well decide to leave... Kate talks about this for quite a bit in her book...
The refusal by members of the tapas group to cooperate ended the investigation. The Portuguese should never have allowed suspects to leave their jurisdiction until they were cleared or charged.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on October 29, 2014, 02:07:05 PM
The Tapas group were more witnesses than suspects and it would have been impossible to hold them against their will. Police should have held a re-enactment on the following day, when the Tapas group could have acted as advisors, while events were fresh in their minds and discrepancies could have been explained ( or not). It is, however, easy to be wise after the event
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2014, 02:20:01 PM
The Tapas group were more witnesses than suspects and it would have been impossible to hold them against their will. Police should have held a re-enactment on the following day, when the Tapas group could have acted as advisors, while events were fresh in their minds and discrepancies could have been explained ( or not). It is, however, easy to be wise after the event
I agree jassi. Would we have seen Gerry going through the main door to check, as related in his 4th of May interview, or through the patio doors as related in his 10th of May one and what side of the road would he have been standing on when talking to Jez ? Further would Kate have related that the door and curtains where fully open, as in her 4th of May statement or ' a little wider than we'd left it ' ( door ) and closed then whooshing ( curtains ) as she later claimed ? IMO they were given far too much time to get their stories straight before being interviewed for a second time.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 29, 2014, 02:45:41 PM
As ferryman correctly pointed out yesterday, the police were suspicious from 4 May when their stories began to conflict.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on October 29, 2014, 02:53:06 PM
Maybe, but they weren't forceful enough. Didn't the British Ambassador play some role in persuading the PJ that it was too early to be suspecting the family?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2014, 03:17:57 PM
As ferryman correctly pointed out yesterday, the police were suspicious from 4 May when their stories began to conflict.
A state of affairs that I can only imagine got worse when they gave their 10th of May statements.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2014, 03:43:42 PM
Once again the title of the thread has a pejorative slant ... and unlike the flight into Egypt ... I think a more careful perusal of the facts will reveal there was nothing at all sudden about the departure of the McCann family from Portugal. Then why let the facts get in the way of a useful prejudice ... however nonsensical.
Mind you I can see the attractions for the McCanns of staying on in Portugal when it became obvious the police were not looking for Madeleine …
Baying mobs outside the premises when they were made arguidos.
Perfect circumstances for the twins to go to nursery and on to school.
The commute to work isn’t really all that bad either.
The support of friends and family … just a hop and a jump … as the aeroplane flies ... and who really needs that level of support when their daughter is missing and when some of the neighbours are so welcoming and understanding.
Not to forget the lovely graffiti artists of PDL … Hmmm … perfect environment to bring up the twins ... gives a certain ambiance to the place.
Strange they didn’t hang around … Rothley doesn’t get the sun as much, and I don’t think the people are as into the community wall art scene as elsewhere …
Strange they would want to get home to give Madeleine’s siblings the best chance of a normal life in a protective village … maybe even return to work to support their family ... I’ll need to give it a bit more thought.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 29, 2014, 03:55:18 PM
I think their decision to get out of Portugal asap was perfectly reasonable...you can have 200 posts on the subject but everyones mind is already made up on something that happened seven years ago and has been discussed a million times
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
I agree jassi. Would we have seen Gerry going through the main door to check, as related in his 4th of May interview, or through the patio doors as related in his 10th of May one and what side of the road would he have been standing on when talking to Jez ? Further would Kate have related that the door and curtains where fully open, as in her 4th of May statement or ' a little wider than we'd left it ' ( door ) and closed then whooshing ( curtains ) as she later claimed ? IMO they were given far too much time to get their stories straight before being interviewed for a second time.
I find it hard to conceive of the fact that "probably the finest police force in the world" haven't at least played with dolls on a desk top model covering all permutations and maybe even doing an animated computerised version of all combinations. Well I would wouldn't you? and then keep my trap shut about it.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on October 29, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
I find it hard to conceive of the fact that "probably the finest police force in the world" haven't at least played with dolls on a desk top model covering all permutations and maybe even doing an animated computerised version of all combinations. Well I would wouldn't you? and then keep my trap shut about it.
Well, you certainly would if you had any serious intent to solve the crime.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 29, 2014, 04:30:49 PM
It basically closed down the Portuguese investigation seemingly. But if you had two other young children you were responsible for too you too might well decide to leave... Kate talks about this for quite a bit in her book...
How did leaving Portugal close down the investigation?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 29, 2014, 04:40:47 PM
I think their decision to get out of Portugal asap was perfectly reasonable...you can have 200 posts on the subject but everyones mind is already made up on something that happened seven years ago and has been discussed a million times
They must have been considering fleeing the jurisdiction for a while as the pressure began to build around them. The moment they found out that they were going to be named as suspects must have been the straw which broke the camels back imo.
But why flee? Why attract criticism?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on October 29, 2014, 04:49:45 PM
They must have been considering fleeing the jurisdiction for a while as the pressure began to build around them. The moment they found out that they were going to be named as suspects must have been the straw which broke the camels back imo.
But why flee? Why attract criticism?
If you had people booing you outside a police station with an increasingly difficult atmosphere not just for themselves but also for the twins, with no idea what the chief inspector's next bright idea might be, wouldn't you rather be at home and try to move the real search forward from there?
They stayed while they thought that the police were still trying to find her. When it became apparent that the PJ was convinced that they were involved, they realised that no one was actually searching for Madeleine. Hence, the reason for staying no longer existed.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: lordpookles on October 29, 2014, 04:51:19 PM
Carana - my misktake. For some reason I belived this to be the case as recently I read the final Portuguese case summary in which they actually refer to the refusal of some memebers of the tapas group to return and how there were important factors that needed to be cleared up. I assume Kate and Gerry leaving Portugal certainly did not help the investigation and Kate's refusal to answer those questions during her interview almost certainly hindered the investigation. As did the media intrusion around the case and perhaps political interference, but who knows about that. I would assume both countries working together would have similar priorities regarding the case....
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 29, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
They must have been considering fleeing the jurisdiction for a while as the pressure began to build around them. The moment they found out that they were going to be named as suspects must have been the straw which broke the camels back imo.
But why flee? Why attract criticism?
because apart from a few on the net no one is criticising them
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on October 29, 2014, 04:57:13 PM
I'm not sure that "fleeing" is quite appropriate. Yes, they did leave as soon as they got permission to do so after the arguido interviews, but they had actually extended the rental of the villa in order to be present for those interviews.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: xtina on October 29, 2014, 05:37:17 PM
of course its why they fled home ...i think it came as a very big shock when they became suspects wasn't they on first name terms with with some of the higher up PJ....
it certainly knocked the arrogance of g mcc.....they couldn't get home quick enough.....what happened to k mcc feeling closer to maddie ..the rented villa no stone left interned .....
it also makes you thing of the long term concert they was organising...k mcc a career in child trafficking the.... film [only canceled at public outrage.]....etc etc
if it was better for them to be at home ....they would have done that in the first place...
if they had nothing to fear they should have stayed .....it was there daughter missing ..fgs
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 29, 2014, 06:07:44 PM
Can anyone tell me what not "fleeing" would have achieved exactly? Do the McCann bashers think that Kate, Gerry and the twins should be living in Portugal until the mystery has been solved?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on October 29, 2014, 06:09:17 PM
Certainly they got a nasty shock at the turn of events and decided they would be safer in the UK, but they wouldn't have stayed indefinitely in any case. Kate might not have had much of a career, but Gerry's Consultant post couldn't have been left in abeyance for much long and without it how could they have paid the mortgage?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on October 29, 2014, 06:17:55 PM
They must have been considering fleeing the jurisdiction for a while as the pressure began to build around them. The moment they found out that they were going to be named as suspects must have been the straw which broke the camels back imo.
But why flee? Why attract criticism?
IIRC They had already planned to go home before they were made Arguidos - in the event I believe they left one day earlier than originally planned.
I truly can't understand why people have a problem with their leaving PdL. I can only assume some people have no ability to put themselves in another person's shoes. No sane person would have stayed in those circumstances IMO.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2014, 06:28:56 PM
IIRC They had already planned to go home before they were made Arguidos - in the event I believe they left one day earlier than originally planned.
I truly can't understand why people have a problem with their leaving PdL. I can only assume some people have no ability to put themselves in another person's shoes. No sane person would have stayed in those circumstances IMO.
I believe the McCanns knew early in August that the focus of the investigation was turning to them. Could this be when arrangements to leave were made ?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2014, 06:29:44 PM
They must have been considering fleeing the jurisdiction for a while as the pressure began to build around them. The moment they found out that they were going to be named as suspects must have been the straw which broke the camels back imo.
But why flee? Why attract criticism?
They left with permission Angelo ... which they requested and were granted
That is NOT fleeing. Try not to overdramatise in your eagerness to run them down
The reasons, IMO:
1) They had already decided to go home. They had had to extend their rental for the "meeting", which turned out to be an attempt at indicting them
2) They realised that they were in danger of being fitted up... lies and possible torture. [ removed speculation ]
3) The PT media were reacting to propaganda churned out, swingers etc. and turning the PT peeps against them
4) They realised that the PJ were not searching for a living Madeleine, but for a dead one. That the best way to forward the search would be the intelligent way using their resources from home, rather than in a Country that had a language they didn't understand, different Laws and very different ethics.
5) The final straw was Gerry being told that Madeleines body had been carried in their hire car. That the PJ had proof of this. This downright lie was the final straw that broke the camels back IMO
6) In addition, there is little doubt that the British Embassy would be urging them to return home. They knew all about i) The torture of Michael Cook by the local PJ and the massive injustices in that case. Was Jacintha Rees before, or after Madeleine? ii) Also the Virgolino Borges torture case with the lies in that.
7) And, the Embassy would know that: i) The lead detective Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral was about to stand trial in a torture case accused of Perjury. He was found guilty. ii) Another lead Inspector,Tavares de Almeida, was about to stand trial in Virgolino Bourges torture case. He was found guilty. iii) Yet another lead Inspector, António Nunes Cardoso was also awaiting trial in a Torture case. He was also found guilty.
8) Their friends, family and legal advisors would be urging them to return home
Phew ! How they stuck there so long, I will never know.
IMO, the allegations about Madeleines body having been carried in their hire car was the final catalyst to returning home. That the PJ had proof. [ removed speculation ] He knew that two ordinary foreigners against the might of a PJ, in a country where they did not even speak the language, did not stand a chance
Time to go home. And be amongst friends and family. Support.
The term fleeing is so unjust Angelo. It smacks of desperately trying to undermine The Mccanns. [Propaganda effectively.] They left with granted permission, having extended their apartment rental to stay for the "meeting" that they had been asked to attend.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 29, 2014, 06:34:36 PM
If (as I believe) the McCanns had nothing to do with their daughter's disappearance can anyone tell me how staying in Portugal and fully co-operating with a police force who believed they were guilty would have solved the mystery?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2014, 06:37:23 PM
I also have little doubt that Lawyers in the UK were advising them to leave.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on October 29, 2014, 06:53:18 PM
They left with permission Angelo ... which they requested and were granted
That is NOT fleeing. Try not to overdramatise in your eagerness to run them down
The reasons, IMO:
1) They had already decided to go home. They had had to extend their rental for the "meeting", which turned out to be an attempt at indicting them
2) They realised that they were in danger of being fitted up... lies and possible torture. [ removed speculation ]
3) The PT media were reacting to propaganda churned out, swingers etc. and turning the PT peeps against them
4) They realised that the PJ were not searching for a living Madeleine, but for a dead one. That the best way to forward the search would be the intelligent way using their resources from home, rather than in a Country that had a language they didn't understand, different Laws and very different ethics.
5) The final straw was Gerry being told that Madeleines body had been carried in their hire car. That the PJ had proof of this. This downright lie was the final straw that broke the camels back IMO
6) In addition, there is little doubt that the British Embassy would be urging them to return home. They knew all about i) The torture of Michael Cook by the local PJ and the massive injustices in that case. Was Jacintha Rees before, or after Madeleine? ii) Also the Virgolino Borges torture case with the lies in that.
7) And, the Embassy would know that: i) The lead detective Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral was about to stand trial in a torture case accused of Perjury. He was found guilty. ii) Another lead Inspector,Tavares de Almeida, was about to stand trial in Virgolino Bourges torture case. He was found guilty. iii) Yet another lead Inspector, António Nunes Cardoso was also awaiting trial in a Torture case. He was also found guilty.
8) Their friends, family and legal advisors would be urging them to return home
Phew ! How they stuck there so long, I will never know.
IMO, the allegations about Madeleines body having been carried in their hire car was the final catalyst to returning home. That the PJ had proof. [ removed speculation ] He knew that two ordinary foreigners against the might of a PJ, in a country where they did not even speak the language, did not stand a chance
Time to go home. And be amongst friends and family. Support.
The term fleeing is so unjust Angelo. It smacks of desperately trying to undermine The Mccanns. [Propaganda effectively.] They left with granted permission, having extended their apartment rental to stay for the "meeting" that they had been asked to attend.
An excellent summation Sadie.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Anna on October 29, 2014, 07:00:48 PM
They left with permission Angelo ... which they requested and were granted
That is NOT fleeing. Try not to overdramatise in your eagerness to run them down
The reasons, IMO:
1) They had already decided to go home. They had had to extend their rental for the "meeting", which turned out to be an attempt at indicting them
2) They realised that they were in danger of being fitted up... lies and possible torture. [ removed speculation ]
3) The PT media were reacting to propaganda churned out, swingers etc. and turning the PT peeps against them
4) They realised that the PJ were not searching for a living Madeleine, but for a dead one. That the best way to forward the search would be the intelligent way using their resources from home, rather than in a Country that had a language they didn't understand, different Laws and very different ethics.
5) The final straw was Gerry being told that Madeleines body had been carried in their hire car. That the PJ had proof of this. This downright lie was the final straw that broke the camels back IMO
6) In addition, there is little doubt that the British Embassy would be urging them to return home. They knew all about i) The torture of Michael Cook by the local PJ and the massive injustices in that case. Was Jacintha Rees before, or after Madeleine? ii) Also the Virgolino Borges torture case with the lies in that.
7) And, the Embassy would know that: i) The lead detective Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral was about to stand trial in a torture case accused of Perjury. He was found guilty. ii) Another lead Inspector,Tavares de Almeida, was about to stand trial in Virgolino Bourges torture case. He was found guilty. iii) Yet another lead Inspector, António Nunes Cardoso was also awaiting trial in a Torture case. He was also found guilty.
8) Their friends, family and legal advisors would be urging them to return home
Phew ! How they stuck there so long, I will never know.
IMO, the allegations about Madeleines body having been carried in their hire car was the final catalyst to returning home. That the PJ had proof. [ removed speculation ] He knew that two ordinary foreigners against the might of a PJ, in a country where they did not even speak the language, did not stand a chance
Time to go home. And be amongst friends and family. Support.
The term fleeing is so unjust Angelo. It smacks of desperately trying to undermine The Mccanns. [Propaganda effectively.] They left with granted permission, having extended their apartment rental to stay for the "meeting" that they had been asked to attend.
Perfect explanation for leaving 8@??)( I am surprised they held out as long as they did!
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: xtina on October 29, 2014, 07:19:44 PM
Perfect explanation for leaving 8@??)( I am surprised they held out as long as they did!
they held out because it suited them ...................then......hey ho... they were suspects.... and couldn't get home quick enough...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 29, 2014, 07:24:45 PM
What would have engendered more suspicion is of they had decided to "flee" within a few weeks of the disappearance, but instead they stayed for as long as they possibly could. When should they have stayed until to NOT be considered suspicious then, "sceptics"?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2014, 07:38:48 PM
What would have engendered more suspicion is of they had decided to "flee" within a few weeks of the disappearance, but instead they stayed for as long as they possibly could. When should they have stayed until to NOT be considered suspicious then, "sceptics"?
Alfred, you are falling into the propaganda trap of repeating the word FLEE repeatedly. That just cements the word in peoples minds and creates myths.
They didn't FLEE, they LEFT with permission.
The correct word is LEFT. It was planned but brought forward one day. They LEFT one day earlier than previously planned and with permission.
That is not fleeing.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 29, 2014, 07:40:20 PM
They also employed an anti-extradition lawyer who defended the mass murderer Pinochet.
Never forget that.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2014, 07:45:59 PM
Alfred, you are falling into the propaganda trap of repeating the word FLEE repeatedly. That just cements the word in peoples minds and creates myths.
They didn't FLEE, they LEFT with permission.
The correct word is LEFT. It was planned but brought forward one day. They LEFT one day earlier than previously planned and with permission.
That is not fleeing.
well it could possibly be also the reason they flew home ..was to sort the mortgage ....was it two or more payments ...they owed...payments from the fund....
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 29, 2014, 07:49:55 PM
Not really! The Lords ruled he could be extradited. Margaret & George poked their oars in to ask he should be allowed to return to Chile rather than be extradited to Spain. Then eventually he [Pinochet] played the bad health card and Jack Straw let him go back to Chile where he was granted immunity for a while which immunity was later revoked. A bit crude but that's about it. It was in reality a complex and ground breaking business.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2014, 10:21:23 PM
Not really! The Lords ruled he could be extradited. Margaret & George poked their oars in to ask he should be allowed to return to Chile rather than be extradited to Spain. Then eventually he [Pinochet] played the bad health card and Jack Straw let him go back to Chile where he was granted immunity for a while which immunity was later revoked. A bit crude but that's about it. It was in reality a complex and ground breaking business.
Thank you Alice
You are a good bloke 8(>((
Sometimes
PS I like your little whimsical tales. Some of them; just a few
And I like the fact that you think outside the box
Sometimes
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on October 30, 2014, 09:32:43 AM
If the PJ were not actively looking for a possibly live Madeleine any more, there was not much point in staying any longer.
I don't see what's suspicious about deciding to go back home. There was more they could organise from there, family support was nearer at hand, expenses would be cut and they wouldn't have to deal with growing local hositility in a foreign country created by the PJ drip feeding their half-baked suspicions to the PT press ages before they chose to leave.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: colombosstogey on October 30, 2014, 11:11:30 AM
They must have been considering fleeing the jurisdiction for a while as the pressure began to build around them. The moment they found out that they were going to be named as suspects must have been the straw which broke the camels back imo. But why flee? Why attract criticism?
I agree, i found it odd. You have nothing to hide, so therefore wouldnt you want to stand your ground and prove you were innocent. Several of my friends never thought they were implicit in the missing of their daughter but after they left so quickly they started to doubt them.
I think if i was innocent i would have stood my ground. Perhaps if they had stayed we might have found the child, who knows.
Although to be fair i dont think they did flee, but by leaving at the time they did, it gave the impression they had.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on October 30, 2014, 11:33:52 AM
I agree, i found it odd. You have nothing to hide, so therefore wouldnt you want to stand your ground and prove you were innocent. Several of my friends never thought they were implicit in the missing of their daughter but after they left so quickly they started to doubt them.
I think if i was innocent i would have stood my ground. Perhaps if they had stayed we might have found the child, who knows.
Although to be fair i dont think they did flee, but by leaving at the time they did, it gave the impression they had.
Of course you would, from your nice comfortable armchair.
But actually in the thick of it - daughter missing, press baying, lurid stories in the newspapers, the police making you arguidos,........
That might make you see things a bit differently.
In those circumstances I would high tail it home and fight from there.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on October 30, 2014, 11:45:56 AM
I agree, i found it odd. You have nothing to hide, so therefore wouldnt you want to stand your ground and prove you were innocent. Several of my friends never thought they were implicit in the missing of their daughter but after they left so quickly they started to doubt them.
I think if i was innocent i would have stood my ground. Perhaps if they had stayed we might have found the child, who knows.
Although to be fair i dont think they did flee, but by leaving at the time they did, it gave the impression they had.
I don't see how... the PJ, based largely on flawed understanding of numerous aspects, had decided that the child was dead and the parents had covered it up (with the help of just about everyone under the sun).
They were simply not looking for a possibly living child. They weren't actually even looking for a potentially dead one, either. They were just banking on one or other of the parents cracking and confessing.
If they'd stayed, there was no guarantee that certain officers wouldn't find some new half-baked "evidence" and the whole thing would have gone from bad to worse. Amaral's next steps were to get "members" of the Smith family, in all likelihood just Martin Smith and wife, over to make a new statement - which would again be in Portuguese in reported speech. Oh, and to carry on looking for a fridge, possibly one with an undateable trace of unidentifiable blood in it. Job over.
I'm not surprised that some people thought that they were fleeing: the tabloids (and sometimes the broadcast media) had been leading the public to believe that they were guilty, after all the PJ "knew" so. At that time, no one knew what was fact and what was fiction.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2014, 11:59:17 AM
The PJ hadn't a clue. Their only chance of solving the case was if the parents were guilty so they went with it. As far as they were concerned statistically...they had an excellent chance of being correct.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: DCI on October 30, 2014, 12:22:40 PM
The PJ hadn't a clue. Their only chance of solving the case was if the parents were guilty so they went with it. As far as they were concerned statistically...they had an excellent chance of being correct.
I wonder why Luis Neves and Guilhermino Encarnacao declared them free to leave the country whenever they wished, if there was any doubt of their guilt.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on October 30, 2014, 12:25:31 PM
Possibly a little matter of proof.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 30, 2014, 12:57:39 PM
The PJ hadn't a clue. Their only chance of solving the case was if the parents were guilty so they went with it. As far as they were concerned statistically...they had an excellent chance of being correct.
No dave, the PJ had more than a clue, they just didn't have the evidence.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2014, 01:02:55 PM
I think it is instructive that the search for Madeleine McCann, dead or alive, was scaled down as early as eight days after her disappearance.
I think from that alone her parents could probably see the writing on the wall and that if they wished the search to continue for their daughter they would have to make contingency plans to do so themselves … leading her father to state on the day after this news was published that … ‘they would leave no stone unturned’ in the search for Madeleine.
>>snip<<
MADDY IS STILL MISSING BUT POLICE CALL OFF THE SEARCH
Friday May 11, 2007 By David Pilditch and Matt Drake in Praia da Luz
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann faced fresh agony last night when police announced they were scaling down the search.
Police and volunteers have been hard at work scouring the 150-square-mile area around the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz where Maddy was snatched from the family’s holiday apartment eight days ago.
But the officer in charge of the investigation has decided to call off the local hunt because nothing has been found. The shock decision prompted increased criticism of their bungled inquiry into the abduction of the three-year-old Briton and the way the hunt for the toddler has been conducted.
Police spokesman Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, said: searches of the local area “initiated as soon as the disappearance was reported” were “coming to an end”. He added: “All the places have been checked. The results are zero.”
But he added that police were “still looking” for Maddy. “We are pursuing lines of investigation. It was a decision of the officer in charge of the case. So I think they have changed something.”
Mr Sousa refused to confirm if police now believe Maddy is being held in another part of Portugal or has been smuggled abroad. “I will not speculate on this,” he said.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic247.html
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 30, 2014, 01:26:22 PM
I think it is instructive that the search for Madeleine McCann, dead or alive, was scaled down as early as eight days after her disappearance.
I think from that alone her parents could probably see the writing on the wall and that if they wished the search to continue for their daughter they would have to make contingency plans to do so themselves … leading her father to state on the day after this news was published that … ‘they would leave no stone unturned’ in the search for Madeleine.
>>snip<<
MADDY IS STILL MISSING BUT POLICE CALL OFF THE SEARCH
Friday May 11, 2007 By David Pilditch and Matt Drake in Praia da Luz
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann faced fresh agony last night when police announced they were scaling down the search.
Police and volunteers have been hard at work scouring the 150-square-mile area around the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz where Maddy was snatched from the family’s holiday apartment eight days ago.
But the officer in charge of the investigation has decided to call off the local hunt because nothing has been found. The shock decision prompted increased criticism of their bungled inquiry into the abduction of the three-year-old Briton and the way the hunt for the toddler has been conducted.
Police spokesman Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, said: searches of the local area “initiated as soon as the disappearance was reported” were “coming to an end”. He added: “All the places have been checked. The results are zero.”
But he added that police were “still looking” for Maddy. “We are pursuing lines of investigation. It was a decision of the officer in charge of the case. So I think they have changed something.”
Mr Sousa refused to confirm if police now believe Maddy is being held in another part of Portugal or has been smuggled abroad. “I will not speculate on this,” he said.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic247.html
Why do think this to be instructive? Are you suggesting that in other searches resources increase with elapsed time?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 30, 2014, 01:27:03 PM
Another headline from the same source.............
'EVERY PARENT'S WORST NIGHTMARE' ???
No mention of course whose fault it was leaving the children in the first place ?
Now that's a tough one, isn't it. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Eleanor on October 30, 2014, 01:47:41 PM
Does anyone honestly believe that The McCanns should have stayed in Portugal?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
Why do think this to be instructive? Are you suggesting that in other searches resources increase with elapsed time?
Rhetorical questions?
Possibly you already know that I am suggesting nothing of the kind and it is common practice that searches are scaled down once all avenues have been exhausted, particularly the use of huge teams of volunteers. Do you think that was the case in the eight day search for Madeleine in an area described as being 150 square miles?
Olegario Sousa said, “We are pursuing lines of investigation. It was a decision of the officer in charge of the case. So I think they have changed something.”
I can think of at least two reasons for the change in emphasis of the new direction for the change in emphasis … can’t you?
... and my question certainly is ... rhetorical.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 30, 2014, 02:31:26 PM
Possibly you already know that I am suggesting nothing of the kind and it is common practice that searches are scaled down once all avenues have been exhausted, particularly the use of huge teams of volunteers. Do you think that was the case in the eight day search for Madeleine in an area described as being 150 square miles?
Olegario Sousa said, “We are pursuing lines of investigation. It was a decision of the officer in charge of the case. So I think they have changed something.”
I can think of at least two reasons for the change in emphasis of the new direction for the change in emphasis … can’t you?
... and my question certainly is ... rhetorical.
At least we are agreed that normal practice is to scale down a search with elapsed time so one should not read anything sinister or untoward in the scaling down.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2014, 02:34:14 PM
At least we are agreed that normal practice is to scale down a search with elapsed time so one should not read anything sinister or untoward in the scaling down.
I answered your question ... you did not answer mine.
"Do you think that was the case in the eight day search for Madeleine in an area described as being 150 square miles?"
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2014, 02:35:02 PM
Thank heavens the diggers and dogs found nothing in PDL...Shows Maddie may still be alive
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on October 30, 2014, 02:37:40 PM
I answered your question ... you did not answer mine.
"Do you think that was the case in the eight day search for Madeleine in an area described as being 150 square miles?"
Yes! If after 8 days blitzing it progressing out from a centre to 16km radius and finding nothing scaling down makes sense. Scaling down does not = terminating.
But as point of interest who said 150 square miles? Which in round numbers is 390 km2 PdL is 22km2.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 30, 2014, 03:23:01 PM
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 30, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
I don't see how... the PJ, based largely on flawed understanding of numerous aspects, had decided that the child was dead and the parents had covered it up (with the help of just about everyone under the sun).
They were simply not looking for a possibly living child. They weren't actually even looking for a potentially dead one, either. They were just banking on one or other of the parents cracking and confessing.
If they'd stayed, there was no guarantee that certain officers wouldn't find some new half-baked "evidence" and the whole thing would have gone from bad to worse. Amaral's next steps were to get "members" of the Smith family, in all likelihood just Martin Smith and wife, over to make a new statement - which would again be in Portuguese in reported speech. Oh, and to carry on looking for a fridge, possibly one with an undateable trace of unidentifiable blood in it. Job over.
I'm not surprised that some people thought that they were fleeing: the tabloids (and sometimes the broadcast media) had been leading the public to believe that they were guilty, after all the PJ "knew" so. At that time, no one knew what was fact and what was fiction.
Is that any different from Scotland Yards understanding seven years on? They aren't looking for a live child, that much is very obvious.
People forget that the McCanns were already contemplating fleeing from Portugal the moment they realised the PJ were going to make them official suspects. Didn't Kate admit in her book that Gerry wanted to load up the hire car and high tail it over the border to Spain?
The truth is they only delayed their exodus by a few days so as not to appear guilty. The PJ made a huge mistake in letting any of them go until every possible avenue had been examined.
The conduct of certain members of that tapas group leaves much to be desired imo.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on October 30, 2014, 05:49:29 PM
Is that any different from Scotland Yards understanding seven years on? They aren't looking for a live child, that much is very obvious.
People forget that the McCanns were already contemplating fleeing from Portugal the moment they realised the PJ were going to make them official suspects. Didn't Kate admit in her book that Gerry wanted to load up the hire car and high tail it over the border to Spain?
The truth is they only delayed their exodus by a few days so as not to appear guilty. The PJ made a huge mistake in letting any of them go until every possible avenue had been examined.
I thought we were not allowed to state opinions as if they were proven facts?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 30, 2014, 06:09:22 PM
I thought we were not allowed to state opinions as if they were proven facts?
It isn't opinion since it is supported by evidence.
SY spent a week looking for a body and not a living child and the McCanns did contemplate fleeing over the border to Spain. They delayed their exodus by a matter of days. Maybe you will tell me that's a myth?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
It isn't opinion since it is supported by evidence.
SY spent a week looking for a body and not a living child and the McCanns did contemplate fleeing over the border to Spain. They delayed their exodus by a matter of days. Maybe you will tell me that's a myth?
abduction is supported by evidence...imo
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on October 30, 2014, 06:19:52 PM
It isn't opinion since it is supported by evidence.
SY spent a week looking for a body and not a living child and the McCanns did contemplate fleeing over the border to Spain. They delayed their exodus by a matter of days. Maybe you will tell me that's a myth?
So can you provide a cite for when SY officially announced that they are no longer looking for a living child?
IIRC the McCanns ultimately left one day earlier than originally planned - not several days later.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: John on October 30, 2014, 06:20:38 PM
From the beginning the McCann's bravely promised Maddie that they would not return home without her and I for one admired their tenacity for doing so.
However, this was all to change when they were made arguidos or official suspects in her disappearance. The moment their official police interviews had been concluded (an interview in which Kate McCann exercised her right to silence) they sought permission to leave Portugal. They were fast tracked through Faro Airport and were never again to spend any significant time in Praia da Luz.
Did this sudden turnaround and the flight which followed it engender suspicion?
Well it most certainly didn't help their cause. They should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charged with finding her, unless of course...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on October 30, 2014, 06:25:15 PM
Well it most certainly didn't help their cause. They should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charge with finding her, unless of course...
Telling the Portuguese police everything they knew was the fullest extent of the assistance they could offer to an investigation into them as prime suspects.
I doubt the McCanns hanging around in PdL would have hastened the eventual judgment that the McCanns had no case answer and that third party(ies) were responsible for crme(s) against Madeleine ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 30, 2014, 06:31:34 PM
Telling the Portuguese police everything they knew was the fullest extent of the assistance they could offer to an investigation into them as prime suspects.
I doubt the McCanns hanging around in PdL would have hastened the eventual judgment that the McCanns had no case answer and that third party(ies) were responsible for crme(s) against Madeleine ...
But they didn't though, did they? Answering questions fully and frankly no matter how upsetting is part of it, Kate McCann in particular abdicated that requirement. There was in fact no full and free disclosure.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on October 30, 2014, 06:41:32 PM
Well it most certainly didn't help their cause. They should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charge with finding her, unless of course...
How can innocent parents be expected to work with police who have already decided they are guilty? That makes no sense to me. Can you explain how that would be achieved. The police had already lied through their teeth to them about the DNA evidence - so why would you expect the McCanns to have any trust in them after that.
The McCanns reacted as any other innocent person would IMO.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on October 30, 2014, 06:41:55 PM
Well it most certainly didn't help their cause. They should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charge with finding her, unless of course...
Aside from the initial impression that little appeared to be happening as conveyed by family members to the press, and that Kate had taken legal advice not to answer the arguido questions, in what way did they not encourage and support the police? There are frequent interviews from the early months in which they expressed appreciation of the efforts made by the PJ.
Slowly, however, it must have been dawning on them that something wasn't right. A normal police investigation doesn't involve drip feeding myths of your supposed guilt related to the non-established death of the chiid you're desperate to find to the unofficial police tabloid media outlets, does it?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: lizzibif on October 30, 2014, 06:42:40 PM
The PJ hadn't a clue. Their only chance of solving the case was if the parents were guilty so they went with it. As far as they were concerned statistically...they had an excellent chance of being correct.
spot on davel 8((()*/
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: lizzibif on October 30, 2014, 06:45:37 PM
Is that any different from Scotland Yards understanding seven years on? They aren't looking for a live child, that much is very obvious.
People forget that the McCanns were already contemplating fleeing from Portugal the moment they realised the PJ were going to make them official suspects. Didn't Kate admit in her book that Gerry wanted to load up the hire car and high tail it over the border to Spain?
The truth is they only delayed their exodus by a few days so as not to appear guilty. The PJ made a huge mistake in letting any of them go until every possible avenue had been examined.
The conduct of certain members of that tapas group leaves much to be desired imo.
If the PJ understood the forensic evidence better than they made out, they'd have realised from the moment they were delivered of John Lowe's forensic report that they had nothing against the McCanns ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 30, 2014, 06:58:37 PM
How can innocent parents be expected to work with police who have already decided they are guilty? That makes no sense to me. Can you explain how that would be achieved. The police had already lied through their teeth to them about the DNA evidence - so why would you expect the McCanns to have any trust in them after that.
The McCanns reacted as any other innocent person would IMO.
You prove to them that you're not guilty by agreeing to answer all questions honestly and offer to do a reconstruction to cover and explain any discrepancies that they have in the timeline. If you do all to help then chances are they will believe you are telling the truth. Actions speak louder than words.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 30, 2014, 07:00:13 PM
If the PJ understood the forensic evidence better than they made out, they'd have realised from the moment they were delivered of John Lowe's forensic report that they had nothing against the McCanns ...
The forensic analysis was simply inconclusive, as you know.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on October 30, 2014, 07:02:12 PM
Is that any different from Scotland Yards understanding seven years on? They aren't looking for a live child, that much is very obvious.
People forget that the McCanns were already contemplating fleeing from Portugal the moment they realised the PJ were going to make them official suspects. Didn't Kate admit in her book that Gerry wanted to load up the hire car and high tail it over the border to Spain?
The truth is they only delayed their exodus by a few days so as not to appear guilty. The PJ made a huge mistake in letting any of them go until every possible avenue had been examined.
The conduct of certain members of that tapas group leaves much to be desired imo.
The Drs McCann were made arguidos days before a change in the law would have meant the PJ would have required evidence to do so. I rather suspect it was hoped that the aggressive questioning they were subject to would elicit a confession as it was known there was no evidence against them.
The problem then would have been similar to the Cipriano case … a confession … perhaps a conviction … but no body …
Strange that people willing to ‘confess’ to a heinous murder would find it impossible to reveal where the body is hidden … unless they just didn't know.
… and people wonder why the Drs McCann were anxious to safeguard their family by getting them home amongst their family.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 30, 2014, 07:33:26 PM
The Drs McCann were made arguidos days before a change in the law would have meant the PJ would have required evidence to do so. I rather suspect it was hoped that the aggressive questioning they were subject to would elicit a confession as it was known there was no evidence against them.
The problem then would have been similar to the Cipriano case … a confession … perhaps a conviction … but no body …
Strange that people willing to ‘confess’ to a heinous murder would find it impossible to reveal where the body is hidden … unless they just didn't know.
… and people wonder why the Drs McCann were anxious to safeguard their family by getting them home amongst their family.
So why do you think the PJ suspected the mccanns ?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: lizzibif on October 30, 2014, 07:43:26 PM
So why do you think the PJ suspected the mccanns ?
Why do you think they did Stephen?...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: lizzibif on October 30, 2014, 08:09:49 PM
Stephen likes to ask questions not answer questions put to him %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2014, 11:02:58 PM
Knowing what I know after just a year of looking at the ins and outs of Madeleine McCann’s case and the circumstances surrounding it … had I been her parents, I would have had myself and the twins out of there long, long before they did for my own safety and for theirs.
They were not unaware of the circumstances they were in and the direction the investigation was taking ... not into the perpetrator of the crime against madeleine ... but into them.
That they stayed until it was made impossible for them to do other than leave … says a great deal to me about their desperation to find Madeleine and to be on hand for her when that came about.
By the way, with one exception all the items below are taken from Portuguese newspapers … it took a very short search to locate them … and there are many more.
The Portuguese seem to have a thing going at the moment about dumping the bad apples from the barrel … does that make them racist?
Tortura Europa denuncia maus-tratos da polícia em Portugal
O Comité Europeu para a Prevenção da Tortura denunciou, esta casos de maus-tratos pela Polícia de Ssegurança Pública (PSP), Guarda Nacional Republicana (GNR) e Polícia Judiciária (PJ) durante as detenções e recomenda às autoridades portuguesas que continuem a esforçar-se para acabar com essas práticas. http://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/65594/europa-denuncia-maus-tratos-da-pol%C3%ADcia-em-portugal#.UXiSPLvLiW4
Inspetor da PJ traficava carros Apanhado em rede criminosa de furto, viciação e desmantelamento de automóveis. Um inspetor da Polícia Judiciária de Leiria é suspeito de estar envolvido na rede de furto, viciação e desmantelamento de carros ligeiros de mercadorias que foi desmantelada anteontem pela GNR de Leiria. http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/inspetor_da_pj_traficava_carros.html
Dois polícias culpados de crimes de recetação levam pena suspense
Os arguidos terão causado um prejuízo de cerca de meio milhão de euros. Sinais de corrupção na judiciária
A Judiciária suspeita que existam polícias nas mãos dos barões da droga. Dois inspetores estão indiciados por receberem dinheiro de traficantes sul-americanos, facilitando a entrada de cocaína em Portugal.
As suspeitas recaem sobre dois históricos investigadores da Polícia Judiciária no combate ao tráfico de droga, que as autoridades acreditam que possam estar envolvidos com um dos mais importantes cartéis de droga da América do Sul, escreve o "Correio da Manhã". http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=3724034&especial=Revistas+de+Imprensa&seccao=TV+e+MEDIA
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 31, 2014, 07:58:33 AM
So why do you think the PJ suspected the mccanns ?
Having investigated the case, including the parents (quite rightly) and found no credible evidence, this was in my view a slightly desperate fishing expedition to elicit a confession and "solve" the case.
This view is based in part on the infamous 48 questions, and also on the use of the dog video and forensic reports to claim during interview that there was a match to Madeleine in the hire car.
There was a quite narrow window of opportunity to make the McCanns arguidos (and therefore leave the door open to a confession) before the law changed.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2014, 09:31:29 AM
You prove to them that you're not guilty by agreeing to answer all questions honestly and offer to do a reconstruction to cover and explain any discrepancies that they have in the timeline. If you do all to help then chances are they will believe you are telling the truth. Actions speak louder than words.
Until the day they were made Arguidos they had co-operated fully and answered all questions honestly - and look where that got them. IMO the PJ were not interested in 'answers' they just wanted confessions because they had no evidence against the McCanns - and time was running out as the laws were about to change.
The McCanns had not been asked to do a reconstructon - that was the PJ's decision. However as already discussed, the only thing a reconstruction would have proved is that it is impossible for 10 people to accurately recreate - down to the minute - their various movements on 3rd May unless they could recall the exact times they had made them. Unsurprisingly - 9 out of 10 of them couldn't do that.
Discrepancies would be expected by normal police officers when so many people were involved. If there were huge unexplained discrepancies amongst the various statements - then why didn't the PJ make the whole group Arguidos?
The fact that the PJ 'ploy' to lie about 100% DNA match failed so miserably - should have told them something - as the McCanns (particularly as they were doctors) would know that if they were guilty - and there was a 100% DNA match to prove that - then it would be 'game over' - and it would be pointless to carry on. IMO they would have confessed at that point.
The fact that the DNA 'Ace' didn't have that desired affect should have told the PJ that in suspecting the McCanns they were barking up the wrong tree - as SY and the Oporto team have since confirmed.
No normal sane person would want to stay in a foreign country where the blatently obvious aim of the police force was to arrest them for a crime which they knew they had not committed.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2014, 09:40:07 AM
I can remember thinking at the time that The PJ brought them in and made them Arguidos in an attempt to frighten them into going home, just to get rid of the embarrassment. If this was so then it certainly worked, especially as The PJ instantly gave The McCanns permission to leave.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on October 31, 2014, 01:05:28 PM
The problem is that there is naff all in the way of evidence so nobody actually knows what happened. Abduction is certainly, as things stand, one of the possibilities.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 31, 2014, 01:12:59 PM
The problem is that there is naff all in the way of evidence so nobody actually knows what happened. Abduction is certainly, as things stand, one of the possibilities.
The abduction theses are difficult to explain & amusingly improbable.
Whereas the 'not abduction' thesis, is as plain as Smithman's e-fit.
So, it's friggin obvious that Maddie wasn't abducted.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 31, 2014, 01:13:40 PM
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: John on October 31, 2014, 02:37:02 PM
I see nobody has replied to my earlier comment, namely, they should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charged with finding her, unless of course they were complicit in something unsavoury.
It is a detectives job to to elicit information in a case such a potential child abduction. A true professional cannot let himself be influenced by emotion regardless of how they feel towards the parents of a supposedly missing child. Police will in the course of an interview say many things in an attempt to get to the truth, lies included. This is standard police procedure in every country in the world so let's stop this silliness for once and for all.
Bottom line is the McCann's should have cooperated 100% with the Portuguese police and done whatever it took to persuade them of their own innocence. As the Portuguese Attorney General pointed out in his final report, the parents failed to take the opportunity to 'clear their name'. And now, seven years later and £10 million plus spent by UK taxpayers on a further investigation, where are we?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: xtina on October 31, 2014, 03:07:09 PM
The last thing k mcc did for her daughter maddie .before they flew home
The 48 questions Kate McCann wouldn't answer - and the one she did
Q. Are you aware that in not answering the questions you are jeopardising the investigation, which seeks to discover what happened to your daughter?
A. 'Yes, if that’s what the investigation thinks.'
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: John on October 31, 2014, 03:09:55 PM
I see nobody has replied to my earlier comment, namely, they should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charged with finding her, unless of course they were complicit in something unsavoury.
It is a detectives job to to elicit information in a case such a potential child abduction. A true professional cannot let himself be influenced by emotion regardless of how they feel towards the parents of a supposedly missing child. Police will in the course of an interview say many things in an attempt to get to the truth, lies included. This is standard police procedure in every country in the world so let's stop this silliness for once and for all.
Bottom line is the McCann's should have cooperated 100% with the Portuguese police and done whatever it took to persuade them of their own innocence. As the Portuguese Attorney General pointed out in his final report, the parents failed to take the opportunity to 'clear their name'. And now, seven years later and £10 million plus spent by UK taxpayers on a further investigation, where are we?
No one has replied John because this has been discussed many times. Kate should have told the pj to shove their stupid 48 questions where the sun don't shine but as the pj didn't know their a##e from their elbow they would have probably put them in the wrong place. A pathetic excuse for a police investigation...IMO
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2014, 03:41:32 PM
The last thing k mcc did for her daughter maddie .before they flew home
The 48 questions Kate McCann wouldn't answer - and the one she did
Q. Are you aware that in not answering the questions you are jeopardising the investigation, which seeks to discover what happened to your daughter?
A. 'Yes, if that’s what the investigation thinks.'
Perhaps you should look to The Portuguese Secrecy Laws. The PJ was leaking like a sieve within a few short weeks of Madeleine's disappearance. Anyone with half a brain knew which way the investigation was going.
I wouldn't have answered their putrid questions, which were in no way designed to help find a missing child.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: xtina on October 31, 2014, 03:50:07 PM
The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, removed the traditional ‘Right to Silence’. However, all this means is that the police/prose- cution can point to your refusal to speak to them, when the case comes to court, and the court may take this as evidence of your guilt. The police cannot force you to speak or make a statement, whatever they may say to you in the station.
Refusing to speak cannot be used to convict you by itself. We reckon the best policy if you want to get off is to remain silent. The best place to work out a good defence is afterwards, with your solic- itor or witnesses, not under pressure in the hands of the cops. If your refusal to speak comes up in court, we think the best defence is to refuse to speak until your solicitor gets there then get them to agree to your position. You can then say you acted on legal advice.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 31, 2014, 03:58:25 PM
I see nobody has replied to my earlier comment, namely, they should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charged with finding her, unless of course they were complicit in something unsavoury.
It is a detectives job to to elicit information in a case such a potential child abduction. A true professional cannot let himself be influenced by emotion regardless of how they feel towards the parents of a supposedly missing child. Police will in the course of an interview say many things in an attempt to get to the truth, lies included. This is standard police procedure in every country in the world so let's stop this silliness for once and for all.
Bottom line is the McCann's should have cooperated 100% with the Portuguese police and done whatever it took to persuade them of their own innocence. As the Portuguese Attorney General pointed out in his final report, the parents failed to take the opportunity to 'clear their name'. And now, seven years later and £10 million plus spent by UK taxpayers on a further investigation, where are we?
Considering that they never actually called the police (or even bothered to try) in the first place, despite knowing she had been taken, it's not really that much of a surprise that they didn't fully cooperate with the investigation thereafter, when taken in the context of the 'abduction' being nothing other than a circus act. IMO.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 31, 2014, 04:00:55 PM
I see nobody has replied to my earlier comment, namely, they should have worked with the police as any innocent parent would do, encouraging the police and offering support where and when necessary. From what I have read this investigation very quickly became a game of cat and mouse, an us and them scenario. I will never understand how the parents of a missing child could criticise the very police charged with finding her, unless of course they were complicit in something unsavoury.
It is a detectives job to to elicit information in a case such a potential child abduction. A true professional cannot let himself be influenced by emotion regardless of how they feel towards the parents of a supposedly missing child. Police will in the course of an interview say many things in an attempt to get to the truth, lies included. This is standard police procedure in every country in the world so let's stop this silliness for once and for all.
Bottom line is the McCann's should have cooperated 100% with the Portuguese police and done whatever it took to persuade them of their own innocence. As the Portuguese Attorney General pointed out in his final report, the parents failed to take the opportunity to 'clear their name'. And now, seven years later and £10 million plus spent by UK taxpayers on a further investigation, where are we?
I find your assertion above (highlighted in bold) quite bizarre. You think the only reason the McCanns could have for criticising an inept police force who had failed to find their daughter and who was focusing all their attention on themselves (when they knew themselves to be innocent) is because they were complicit in something unsavoury? How about being critical of them for being inept and barking up the wrong tree, are those not valid grounds?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 31, 2014, 10:16:18 PM
As long as the facts remain undetermined and Maddie's fate remains unknown, anyone posting that she was definitely abducted or is definitely dead will have their posts edited or removed. Expressing opinion is allowed but posts must make this clear.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 01, 2014, 10:45:14 AM
We know they're not suspects. But in many cases prime suspects aren't revealed until they they get the evidence required to arrest and charge them. At that stage they are brought in to be questioned.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Lace on November 02, 2014, 03:09:55 PM
What sudden flight from Portugal? They left three months later didn't they? The police knew they were leaving, they didn't stop them leaving.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on November 02, 2014, 03:27:56 PM
Might relate to the short notice. One moment they have no apparent intention of leaving , a day or two later they have gone.
There seems to be a rash of undeclared snipping about. Calamine lotion anyone. How about a rerun of these?
Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police, stated in July 2008 that "While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."
Lee Rainbow, wrote a report in which he stated: "The potential involvement of the family in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be discarded, and it can be considered that, when pondering the basis for research, this hypothesis deserves as much attention as the criminal with sexual motivations that has been previously prioritised.
"It should be stressed that there is no evidence to directly support an involvement of the family, yet given the absence of decisive evidence to prove the contrary, such a scenario has to be explored."
The Foreign & Commonwealth Office wrote: 'You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.'
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Lace on November 02, 2014, 04:35:10 PM
Might relate to the short notice. One moment they have no apparent intention of leaving , a day or two later they have gone.
Kate says in her book that they were thinking of leaving and that the police knew and said that they could.
The police could have stopped them leaving or could have brought them back, they didn't.
Could be when the McCann's said they didn't want to leave without Madeleine, they thought she would be found. They couldn't stay there indefinitely could they?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on November 02, 2014, 04:49:52 PM
Kate says in her book that they were thinking of leaving and that the police knew and said that they could.
The police could have stopped them leaving or could have brought them back, they didn't.
Could be when the McCann's said they didn't want to leave without Madeleine, they thought she would be found. They couldn't stay there indefinitely could they?
Of course, not, indeed I'm surprised they stayed as long as their presence served no real purpose, as they weren't physically searching.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2014, 06:03:13 PM
Of course, not, indeed I'm surprised they stayed as long as their presence served no real purpose, as they weren't physically searching.
Do you think the police would have appreciated the McCanns physically searching for their child in the months they were in PT? Would they have approved of them knocking on doors, snooping in sheds, excavating drains, cross-questioning suspected paedos? Is that what you would have been doing, and do you think the police would have given you the thumbs up to do so?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on November 02, 2014, 06:17:10 PM
Do you think the police would have appreciated the McCanns physically searching for their child in the months they were in PT? Would they have approved of them knocking on doors, snooping in sheds, excavating drains, cross-questioning suspected paedos? Is that what you would have been doing, and do you think the police would have given you the thumbs up to do so?
IMO The PJ would have swiftly warned them that discussing the case with the locals or anyone else was breaking the Secrecy laws - and was an arrestable offence.
Apart from that - the rabid Press attention would have made any local searching a practical impossibility. IMO.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2014, 08:16:23 PM
I'm not sure that the progress of the investigation would have been much different whether the McCanns had been in Portugal or England.
But there may be some nuance I've missed ...
As far as the progress of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned, I don’t think there would have been much difference, too many elementary mistakes had been made for any more progress towards finding her to be made.
As far as the investigation into Madeleine’s parents is concerned … I do not think that would have happened.
The ‘honour’ of the PJ would not have been allegedly impugned.
The dogs would not have been brought in and allegedly alerted.
The hire car would not have been hired.
The second mistaken Smith sighting would not have occurred.
The previous three statements would have meant that the McCanns would not have been made arguidos.
It is possible Dr Amaral might not have been removed from the case when he was and he would not have written his book or made his documentary.
… and no-one would be trying to find out what happened to Madeleine now.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 02, 2014, 08:41:24 PM
As far as the progress of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned, I don’t think there would have been much difference, too many elementary mistakes had been made for any more progress towards finding her to be made.
As far as the investigation into Madeleine’s parents is concerned … I do not think that would have happened.
The ‘honour’ of the PJ would not have been allegedly impugned.
The dogs would not have been brought in and allegedly alerted.
The hire car would not have been hired.
The second mistaken Smith sighting would not have occurred.
The previous three statements would have meant that the McCanns would not have been made arguidos.
It is possible Dr Amaral might not have been removed from the case when he was and he would not have written his book or made his documentary.
… and no-one would be trying to find out what happened to Madeleine now.
Interesting.
I need to think about that a litle more carefully.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 02, 2014, 09:17:52 PM
I offered a few thoughts on the issue. No point repeating them. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5513.msg197020#msg197020
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 02, 2014, 09:29:50 PM
As far as the progress of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned, I don’t think there would have been much difference, too many elementary mistakes had been made for any more progress towards finding her to be made.
As far as the investigation into Madeleine’s parents is concerned … I do not think that would have happened.
The ‘honour’ of the PJ would not have been allegedly impugned.
The dogs would not have been brought in and allegedly alerted.
The hire car would not have been hired.
The second mistaken Smith sighting would not have occurred.
The previous three statements would have meant that the McCanns would not have been made arguidos.
It is possible Dr Amaral might not have been removed from the case when he was and he would not have written his book or made his documentary.
… and no-one would be trying to find out what happened to Madeleine now.
Cue: And Brenda would not have been forced by the McCanns into a twitter hate campaign
And brunt would not have doorstepped her
And she would not have had to commit suicide.... etc etc ad nauseum
Anyone seen "sliding doors"........
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 02, 2014, 09:34:13 PM
Well, let's see, the McCanns went home shortly after being made arguidos in September 2007 and the first investigation was shelved (I think, in accordance with Portuguese law) almost exactly a year later.
So I'm not sure about that.
I suppose there is the argument that, the McCanns having been declared arguidos, the PJ was obliged to keep on ...
I understood Misty's question to be: what would have been different if the McCanns had gone back home 1-2 weeks after the disappearance.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 02, 2014, 10:30:14 PM
As far as the progress of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned, I don’t think there would have been much difference, too many elementary mistakes had been made for any more progress towards finding her to be made.
As far as the investigation into Madeleine’s parents is concerned … I do not think that would have happened.
The ‘honour’ of the PJ would not have been allegedly impugned.
The dogs would not have been brought in and allegedly alerted.
The hire car would not have been hired.
The second mistaken Smith sighting would not have occurred.
The previous three statements would have meant that the McCanns would not have been made arguidos.
It is possible Dr Amaral might not have been removed from the case when he was and he would not have written his book or made his documentary.
… and no-one would be trying to find out what happened to Madeleine now.
Not sure about the dogs.
Harrison may still have offered to do a scoping exercise on the search, in which case the dogs may still have been taken out and alerted to 5A. As Amaral suspected the parents from the start, that might well have been enough for the McCanns to be made arguidos (at the time).
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2014, 07:54:57 AM
Sorry. I keep forgetting about this damned one-quote restriction.
No problem.
Adding to Misty's question, if the McCanns had returned early, might things have worked out different for Robert Murat?
Better, or worse?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2014, 08:16:53 AM
If the McCanns had gone home early and had just waited quietly for any news, then the media frenzy would probably have died down. However, I find it unlikely that the mere fact of having to go back due to work / financial commitments would have stopped their determination to mount their awareness campaign, or to find the means to fly out to try to get updates, all of which would still have kept the media going.
If they had gone home, would that have affected the extent of involvement of the UK police agencies? LP would still have had its major incident room, but if the various other ones had been more passive, Harrison may not have been aware that more could be done in the actual search, in which case the dogs would probably not have gone out.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Adding to Misty's question, if the McCanns had returned early, might things have worked out different for Robert Murat?
Better, or worse?
I was wondering about that as well.
That might depend on whether the dogs would have gone out or not. If they hadn't, Murat would probably have remained the only arguido and would probably have been even more demonised by the media. If that were the case, he might well have been a scapegoat and found himself in a Cipriano-style situation.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 09:46:17 AM
That might depend on whether the dogs would have gone out or not. If they hadn't, Murat would probably have remained the only arguido and would probably have been even more demonised by the media. If that were the case, he might well have been a scapegoat and found himself in a Cipriano-style situation.
I think, possibly, the dogs might still have gone out to inspect the holiday apartments and Murat's place ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 11:10:16 AM
If the McCanns had gone home early and had just waited quietly for any news, then the media frenzy would probably have died down. However, I find it unlikely that the mere fact of having to go back due to work / financial commitments would have stopped their determination to mount their awareness campaign, or to find the means to fly out to try to get updates, all of which would still have kept the media going.
If they had gone home, would that have affected the extent of involvement of the UK police agencies? LP would still have had its major incident room, but if the various other ones had been more passive, Harrison may not have been aware that more could be done in the actual search, in which case the dogs would probably not have gone out.
Carana said “However, I find it unlikely that the mere fact of having to go back due to work / financial commitments would have stopped their determination to mount their awareness campaign, or to find the means to fly out to try to get updates, all of which would still have kept the media going.”
That is because you have looked at everything concerning the case with an open mind; you have not been taken in by the propaganda and you have understood the meaning of the complete results from forensics … and have made your conclusion that they are innocent of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.
Carana said “If the McCanns had gone home early and had just waited quietly for any news, then the media frenzy would probably have died down.”
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
As far as Leicestershire police are concerned … I think the liaison officers sent out did a remarkable job … but I think those at the top of the tree could have done a lot more in the situation and I think their handling of the media left a lot of hostages to fortune and let the McCanns down badly … I base this opinion on the Baggott and Lawton testimony given at the Leveson Inquiry.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2014, 11:29:37 AM
Carana said “However, I find it unlikely that the mere fact of having to go back due to work / financial commitments would have stopped their determination to mount their awareness campaign, or to find the means to fly out to try to get updates, all of which would still have kept the media going.”
That is because you have looked at everything concerning the case with an open mind; you have not been taken in by the propaganda and you have understood the meaning of the complete results from forensics … and have made your conclusion that they are innocent of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.
Carana said “If the McCanns had gone home early and had just waited quietly for any news, then the media frenzy would probably have died down.”
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
As far as Leicestershire police are concerned … I think the liaison officers sent out did a remarkable job … but I think those at the top of the tree could have done a lot more in the situation and I think their handling of the media left a lot of hostages to fortune and let the McCanns down badly … I base this opinion on the Baggott and Lawton testimony given at the Leveson Inquiry.
You mean in your opinion it was not acceptable to straight bat it, saying the case was a Portuguese investigation and they [the Leicestershire Police] could divulge nothing?.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 11:32:13 AM
I think, possibly, the dogs might still have gone out to inspect the holiday apartments and Murat's place ...
With the parents out of the equation … if there was a person who lived close by and in the direction being taken by a man seen walking while carrying a child; whose home had a convenient crawl space; who had allegedly been seen after the event by many witnesses on the night in question; who was getting first hand information from witnesses; whose computer had been seized and leaks to the press had mentioned ‘inappropriate’ material; if his demeanour excited enough suspicion for it to be reported … and if the police firmly believed he was the perpetrator … I think it feasible to suppose that the dogs and Hans, whether clever or dumb might very well have ‘alerted’ in a place associated with the suspect.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 11:40:33 AM
You mean in your opinion it was not acceptable to straight bat it, saying the case was a Portuguese investigation and they [the Leicestershire Police] could divulge nothing?.
Allowing mistaken or incomplete forensics to be stated as fact ... 100% MADELEINE'S DNA ... found in hire car, complete with blood and body fluids ... was absolutely shameful, in my opinion.
It should also be remembered that there was no need for judicial secrecy in Madeleine's case ... a missing person investigation being one of the exemptions.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2014, 12:03:25 PM
Allowing mistaken or incomplete forensics to be stated as fact ... 100% MADELEINE'S DNA ... found in hire car, complete with blood and body fluids ... was absolutely shameful, in my opinion.
It should also be remembered that there was no need for judicial secrecy in Madeleine's case ... a missing person investigation being one of the exemptions.
I don't follow. Do you think the LP stance of "nothing to do with us pal we can't comment" was unreasonable or do believe LP should have shot a line to the UK press ? Frankly in their position of not knowing the full SP I would have done the same as them.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 12:03:37 PM
- The media presence in PdL might have dropped off sooner, but Lori Campbell's splash about Murat (and the interest in Malinka at the time) would have kept the media there after the McCanns had gone. Both of them might have been hassled by the media even more than they already were without the McCanns to provide frequent photos for their media pieces.
- Unless the McCanns felt that they could be kept fully informed by the UK FLOs, they would probably still have found the means to return on occasion to request updates, so the media would have been rushing over each time as well.
- Watching police movements to cover those angles would probably still have led to the splash about long "boozy" lunches, which would still have disgruntled the police and stirred anti-UK sentiment.
- Amaral never got beyond the fact that there was no visible sign of forced entry. The family's initial assumption that the windows had been jemmied was considered as "proof" of a faked abduction. He still wouldn't have considered the possibility of a duplicate key or entry with a tool smaller than a full-sized credit card, nor even the possibility of entry/exit via the patio door.
- He would still have been convinced that there was a suspicious connection between Jane Tanner and Murat (Murat's relative had a house in Exeter and JT/Russ had just moved there, ergo they must have known each other, despite the fact that it is a city with a population of well over 100k; and because two people of the same haplotypes were found in a Burgau flat). He would still have been convinced that Jane invented the Tannerman sighting and falsely identified Murat (which she never did, but anyway).
- The Smith family would probably still have reported having seen a man carrying a child and may still have gone back over to make statements and show the PJ exactly where they saw him. However, there may well have been less of a media fuss highlighting the McCanns coming down the plane steps as they wouldn't have been arguidos, and so Martin Smith may never have had that sudden doubt.
- If the McCanns had gone home, would the UK police involvement would have been different? If it had been the same, Amaral may still have erupted. Would he have still been booted off the case? Possibly, although I'm not convinced that his rant against the UK police was the only reason. The extensive embarrassing leaks might have been a factor, and there would have been fewer half-truths to flutter out of PJ windows.
- Would the initial PJ team still have drip-fed half-baked theories and half-truths to the PT media? Quite probably, but not as many. The lurid stories about what was allegedly found as "evidence" of a dead body in the Scenic wouldn't have seen the light of day, although they may have invented others.
- If they hadn't been in the villa, there wouldn't have been bizarre suspicions about "restricted" CEOP booklets (which, if he'd checked, he might have noticed were not restricted at all and are freely available for download on the Internet), amongst other things.
- If the dogs had come over anyway, they would have still searched Murat's place, 5A and the McCanns' second apartment. The fact that Eddie barked in 5A would still have convinced him that she'd died there and that therefore the McCanns were involved. It is therefore likely that they would still have been made arguidos.
He wouldn't have been able to convince himself that she had been transported in the Scenic (as it wouldn't have been rented) and he might even have had to discard his fridge theory, although that's not certain. There would have been no strange dog inspection of clothes in the gym, nor of CuddleCat in the villa.
On the other hand, if it hadn't been such a high profile case, I wonder if the dogs would have come over at all. Possibly, if Harrison had still offered to help review the previous searches and offer a new perspective.
If the dogs hadn't come over, then there would have been no "evidence", flimsy as it was, to make the McCanns arguidos.
- As Murat would probably have been an arguido anyway, and Amaral didn't seem to have been actively investigating anyone else beyond the parents / T7, Murat would either have to have been charged within six months or the investigation shelved. As there was no evidence against him, it would have been shelved... providing he wasn't given the slippery stair treatment.
If Murat had somehow been coerced into a "confession" with a staged reconstruction, he might have ended up in jail for something he didn't do and the McCanns would never have been able to push for the case to be reviewed, let alone reopened.
- Again, with fewer half-truths for the initial PJ team to leak about the McCanns, e.g., what the dog alerts meant and the garbled understanding of forensics, Amaral may not have been booted off the case. He might have been left ruminating over seafood dinners about his latest successful investigation.
He might, in fact, have been made head of Faro...
Meanwhile, Madeleine would still be missing... with no hope of ever being found.
I don’t think the allegations of police bungling would have gone away and the criticism would have made the PJ more anxious to have a conclusion.
I think that despite his very powerful local contacts and the place of the family in society, Robert Murat would have had a very tough time of it when trying to prove his innocence.
As the only arguido, with the full spotlight of the Portuguese and British press on him and the PJ investigation concentrating solely on him … I think the best he could have hoped for would be that the investigation would have been ‘timed out’ because there was no evidence against him but he would then have had to live under a cloud of suspicion forever.
As you say ... no-one would have been trying to find out what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 12:17:14 PM
edited - see strange witness statements thread.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 12:18:09 PM
I don't follow. Do you think the LP stance of "nothing to do with us pal we can't comment" was unreasonable or do believe LP should have shot a line to the UK press ? Frankly in their position of not knowing the full SP I would have done the same as them.
The chief constable of Leicestershire police testified that he knew the forensic results leaked to the Portuguese press … were wrong. If you agree with his stance on not immediately rectifying this … that is a matter for you.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2014, 12:29:29 PM
The chief constable of Leicestershire police testified that he knew the forensic results leaked to the Portuguese press … were wrong. If you agree with his stance on not immediately rectifying this … that is a matter for you.
Indeed it is. What I would have done is phone the geezer in charge of the investigation in order to have quiet word in his shell like. Neither you nor I know whether or not the LP ACC did so. But informing the press under those circumstances is a definite "no no". It strikes me that the "supporters" frequently like to have their cake and eat it wrt the police and press.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 12:39:46 PM
The discovery of a key at Murat's house revives the hope of finally getting a lead. He tells us that it belongs to Michaela, and that it must have been dropped accidentally. Where was that key before it was found at his house? In Michaela's pocket? In her bag? We learn that it opens the door of a garage where Luis Antonio stores his maintenance products. A team is sent immediately to the part of Lagos where this garage is situated. The search proves as disappointing as the others. Nothing is found. Once again, no evidence of Madeleine's presence. (TOTL by Goncalo Amaral)
3. IDENTIFICATION OF MURAT'S GIRLFRIEND AND MOVING OF A CHILD'S BODY TO A HIDDEN AREA
Manuel informs us that the day after Madeleine's disappearance at about 4 or 5 pm when he was travelling on the ICI road at kilometre 718, he saw two stationary cars, an Audi A3 driven by a man and a green car (very special green colour) driven by a blonde woman. Subsequently we showed him a series of photographs that were in our possession amongst which the one with the closes resemblance was that of a woman who turns out to be Murat's girlfriend, Michaela Walczuch.
The cars were stationary; the green one was inside a farm where two elderly men live and separated by a metal fence and on the pavement of the road was the Audi. When Manuel drove past in his lorry he saw how the woman passed a bundle wrapped in a blanket over the fence, being convinced that this was a child. (Because of the way she was holding it and because it was wrapped in the blanket).
It should be noted that Manuel's manifestations seem reliable to us, in part because of the fear that he showed before and during our meeting as well as due to the successive contacts that we have had with him and the interest that he has always shown.
Manuel preferred to remain anonymous given that he was very frightened and did not want to give us his surnames. He drives a grey Renault Laguna, number plate 53 92 RF. In order for us to contact him he provided the email address of a relative:
He can prove this claim because he is currently responsible for 37 or 38 private pools having only the St. James resort, in Praia da Luz, and a condominium "Building B1 4-A, in Lagos. (Luis Antonio)
5. With regard to the possible sighting of arguido Gerry McCann next to a pink coloured block of apartments at a site opposite the Luz cemetery, we can inform you that this an establishment called 'St James Portuguesa Lda', lots 1 and 2 being situated in the positions mentioned, from the outside the spaces corresponding to Lot 1 can be seen of a total of apartment designated as follows: 101-104, 111-114, 121-124, 105-109, 115-119, 125-129.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 20:
Went to pick up Gerry from the airport. It was so good to see him. Just before we reached the apartment we saw a man lying in the middle of the street, so we stopped the car and got out. It was no surprise to see that he was drunk (we've all been there!) but he recognised Gerry and me immediately. Gerry walked him round to his apartment.
Poor old Manuel is not going be best pleased that, having wished to remain anonymous, they quote his car reg plate.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 12:55:43 PM
Indeed it is. What I would have done is phone the geezer in charge of the investigation in order to have quiet word in his shell like. Neither you nor I know whether or not the LP ACC did so. But informing the press under those circumstances is a definite "no no". It strikes me that the "supporters" frequently like to have their cake and eat it wrt the police and press.
As you point out ... there is more than one way to skin a cat ... if you read my posts you will ascertain that nowhere did I suggest having my cake and eating it ... I made reference to the evidence as it was presented to Leveson.
That it was known by those in charge that blatant lies were being allowed to be printed and to stand in the press rather brings their judgement not to make some intervention into question imo.
As a rejoinder ... it strikes me that the " troof seekers" tend to frequently personalise with insult when they don't have a leg to stand on in legitimate argument.
For the record and for your future information ... I "support" only that which can be substantiated.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 12:57:05 PM
Poor old Manuel is not going be best pleased that, having wished to remain anonymous, they quote his car reg plate.
3440 - Confidential report re: denouncement of Michaela Walczuch (Spanish) ------------- (The third of the three pieces of information from the book given to the PJ by Metodo 3)
Processos Vol XIII Page 3440
3. IDENTIFICATION OF MURAT'S GIRLFRIEND AND MOVING OF A CHILD'S BODY TO A HIDDEN AREA
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2014, 12:59:04 PM
Indeed it is. What I would have done is phone the geezer in charge of the investigation in order to have quiet word in his shell like. Neither you nor I know whether or not the LP ACC did so. But informing the press under those circumstances is a definite "no no". It strikes me that the "supporters" frequently like to have their cake and eat it wrt the police and press.
The geezer's shell didn't seem to be very open to explanations that didn't fit with the "theory".
- The attempt by Lowe to explain the forensic results in simple terms led to a conspiracy theory that the FSS had somehow contaminated the "evidence".
- The caveat that a search for the potential issue of credit-worthiness of the McCanns showed no results on a database was interpreted as they didn't have credit cards.
- The caveats of Harrison and Grime about the dogs fell on deaf ears.
That's just off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 01:20:20 PM
As you point out ... there is more than one way to skin a cat ... if you read my posts you will ascertain that nowhere did I suggest having my cake and eating it ... I made reference to the evidence as it was presented to Leveson.
That it was known by those in charge that blatant lies were being allowed to be printed and to stand in the press rather brings their judgement not to make some intervention into question imo.
As a rejoinder ... it strikes me that the " troof seekers" tend to frequently personalise with insult when they don't have a leg to stand on in legitimate argument.
For the record and for your future information ... I "support" only that which can be substantiated.
Is your spelling of "truth".............as in "troof seekers"..........intended as an insult?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2014, 01:23:15 PM
The chief constable of Leicestershire police testified that he knew the forensic results leaked to the Portuguese press … were wrong. If you agree with his stance on not immediately rectifying this … that is a matter for you.
I was appalled that they knew and didn't say anything.
There was, however, a statement (perhaps even two?) issued regarding inaccurate reporting or along those lines, but it was so vague that the press couldn't second-guess what it was referring to. I'm not sure I could find the link again... or it may be buried somewhere in the Leveson files.
My understanding of what Baggot was trying to say was that the bigger picture, i.e., diplomacy, took precedence as cooperation with overseas police forces was paramount (whichever force that may be, then or at any time in the future).
At least one of the hacks stated that the media should have been informed off-the-record, but in view of the scale of the irresponsible media frenzy at the time, LP may well have come to the conclusion that no one could be trusted and any leak would have further fuelled the UK/PT media war and thus international police relations.
Unfortunately, the McCanns ended up as collateral damage so as to avoid rocking the boat.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 01:28:03 PM
Carana said “However, I find it unlikely that the mere fact of having to go back due to work / financial commitments would have stopped their determination to mount their awareness campaign, or to find the means to fly out to try to get updates, all of which would still have kept the media going.”
That is because you have looked at everything concerning the case with an open mind; you have not been taken in by the propaganda and you have understood the meaning of the complete results from forensics … and have made your conclusion that they are innocent of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.
Carana said “If the McCanns had gone home early and had just waited quietly for any news, then the media frenzy would probably have died down.”
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
As far as Leicestershire police are concerned … I think the liaison officers sent out did a remarkable job … but I think those at the top of the tree could have done a lot more in the situation and I think their handling of the media left a lot of hostages to fortune and let the McCanns down badly … I base this opinion on the Baggott and Lawton testimony given at the Leveson Inquiry.
It is not unknown for those guilty of a crime to remain close to an investigation in order to keep an eye on proceedings, keep themselves informed and attempt to steer the direction taken in the investigation.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 01:29:18 PM
It is not unknown for those guilty of a crime to remain close to an investigation in order to keep an eye on proceedings, keep themselves informed and attempt to steer the direction taken in the investigation.
In the abstract, maybe ...
the blunder Lori Campbel made with Robert Murat ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
What about pressure from family and loved ones? Do you think they would let them keep their heads down and stop looking? No way there's no choice in the matter. You've always got to search. Even more suspicious if you stop!
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 01:33:59 PM
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
What about pressure from family and loved ones? Do you think they would let them keep their heads down and stop looking? No way there's no choice in the matter. You've always got to search. Even more suspicious if you stop!
Keep digging ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 01:36:59 PM
When people with no axe to grind, but who actually know how to read body-language, like Sharon Leal, declare the McCanns 100% innocent, it's time for those who doubt such notions to sit up and listen.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2014, 01:39:09 PM
I don’t think the allegations of police bungling would have gone away and the criticism would have made the PJ more anxious to have a conclusion.
I think that despite his very powerful local contacts and the place of the family in society, Robert Murat would have had a very tough time of it when trying to prove his innocence.
As the only arguido, with the full spotlight of the Portuguese and British press on him and the PJ investigation concentrating solely on him … I think the best he could have hoped for would be that the investigation would have been ‘timed out’ because there was no evidence against him but he would then have had to live under a cloud of suspicion forever.
As you say ... no-one would have been trying to find out what happened to Madeleine.
It's true that he was hardly some poor, barely literate, peasant. However, I still wouldn't put it totally off the cards that he may have ended up being subjected to rotating PJ teams interrogating him in "non-formal" interviews. Even sleep deprivation can make people "confess" to a crime that they may never have committed and sign on the dotted line.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 03, 2014, 01:39:37 PM
3440 - Confidential report re: denouncement of Michaela Walczuch (Spanish) ------------- (The third of the three pieces of information from the book given to the PJ by Metodo 3)
Processos Vol XIII Page 3440
3. IDENTIFICATION OF MURAT'S GIRLFRIEND AND MOVING OF A CHILD'S BODY TO A HIDDEN AREA
Confidential by Metodo.
Made public by........ The PJ.
(by the way - what is information from Metodo doing in the PJ files? Given all the huffing and puffing on here about it being illegal for anyone to inestigate in Portugal, other than the police?)
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 01:39:59 PM
They are for the important evidence. With Wright returning on June 8 and noticing unpleasant smells in the car they will be investigating the start of june for a possible move. He returned on July 12/13 so before that date is another possibility.
12 JULY - Today I cleaned Cuddle Cat.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 01:43:11 PM
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
What about pressure from family and loved ones? Do you think they would let them keep their heads down and stop looking? No way there's no choice in the matter. You've always got to search. Even more suspicious if you stop!
Yes.........As I recall, the McCanns have mentioned the importance of the twins knowing that their parents are doing all they can to find their sister. I think this aspect is important to them.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2014, 01:43:38 PM
It is not unknown for those guilty of a crime to remain close to an investigation in order to keep an eye on proceedings, keep themselves informed and attempt to steer the direction taken in the investigation.
No doubt. UK FLOs are trained to watch out for that, aren't they?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 01:45:15 PM
They are for the important evidence. With Wright returning on June 8 and noticing unpleasant smells in the car they will be investigating the start of june for a possible move. He returned on July 12/13 so before that date is another possibility.
12 JULY - Today I cleaned Cuddle Cat.
Surely you aren't getting excited about a rather bad smell in the boot of the car caused by rotting meat from a bag bought at a supermarket that burst open ...
Are you?
And seeing as Portugal has a perfectly good forensic laboratory, why wasn't cuddle-cat taken on day one for forensic examination?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2014, 02:01:51 PM
It is not unknown for those guilty of a crime to remain close to an investigation in order to keep an eye on proceedings, keep themselves informed and attempt to steer the direction taken in the investigation.
Mitchell Quy.
Made TV appeals for his missing partner....., whom him & his brother had dismembered in a bathtub & disposed of in carrier bags.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Oode9t6Yo
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 02:02:34 PM
Surely you aren't getting excited about a rather bad smell in the boot of the car caused by rotting meat from a bag bought at a supermarket that burst open ...
Are you?
And seeing as Portugal has a perfectly good forensic laboratory, why wasn't cuddle-cat taken on day one for forensic examination?
Excited nope. I follow evidence - open boot, dog alert in boot, unpleasant smell, unknown hairs in boot etc.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 02:07:12 PM
Is your spelling of "truth".............as in "troof seekers"..........intended as an insult?
Only if it is taken as such.
For example ... I object strongly to many of the descriptions attached to some posts, as is my prerogative, and if admin don't like what I'm saying about that, they will simply whoosh it.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 02:22:21 PM
It is not unknown for those guilty of a crime to remain close to an investigation in order to keep an eye on proceedings, keep themselves informed and attempt to steer the direction taken in the investigation.
You would have to give me a cite of examples of the perpetrator of a crime keeping close to an investigation before I could discuss that further.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 02:23:26 PM
For example ... I object strongly to many of the descriptions attached to some posts, as is my prerogative, and if admin don't like what I'm saying about that, they will simply whoosh it.
What was your reason for spelling truth, "troof?"
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 02:30:28 PM
I believe that is how they would have reacted if they had been guilty in any way.
They would have kept their heads down; made their excuses and got on with life. They could have forestalled media investigation by using the necessity to get on with life for the twins and asking for the privacy to do so.
What about pressure from family and loved ones? Do you think they would let them keep their heads down and stop looking? No way there's no choice in the matter. You've always got to search. Even more suspicious if you stop!
I think the friends and family would have gone along with the parents decision to try to resume normal life for the sake of the twins ...
When has it ever been the norm for the parents of a missing child to institute and organise their own search and investigation because the authorities were not doing so?
So who would have suspected a thing if that had not occurred?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 02:38:28 PM
Yes.........As I recall, the McCanns have mentioned the importance of the twins knowing that their parents are doing all they can to find their sister. I think this aspect is important to them.
... and they are not an intelligent enough couple to have addressed that? ... bearing in mind that they would have returned from Portugal prior to the propaganda sites set up to massage opinion against them by starting myths about freezers etc. in use seven years later, despite firm evidence to the contrary ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 02:40:59 PM
The geezer's shell didn't seem to be very open to explanations that didn't fit with the "theory".
- The attempt by Lowe to explain the forensic results in simple terms led to a conspiracy theory that the FSS had somehow contaminated the "evidence".
- The caveat that a search for the potential issue of credit-worthiness of the McCanns showed no results on a database was interpreted as they didn't have credit cards.
- The caveats of Harrison and Grime about the dogs fell on deaf ears.
That's just off the top of my head.
The point at issue was whether one believes it is a matter for a police force that does not have primacy to report matters to the press it sees as deficient in the force that does have primacy rather than speak to them directly irrespective of whether they pay attention or not.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2014, 02:57:18 PM
The point at issue was whether one believes it is a matter for a police force that does not have primacy to report matters to the press it sees as deficient in the force that does have primacy rather than speak to them directly irrespective of whether they pay attention or not.
They did try to explain issues to the other police force. They didn't pay attention.
If the press couldn't be trusted, caution seems to have been the order of the day.
My personal reaction was that I found it unfair that they knew and didn't say anything. Then, when I stood back, I could understand that it was an awkward situation.
The release of the files has enabled anyone wishing to do so to verify for themselves... however few people have done so and prefer to regurgitate long-discounted myths.
And certain people, particularly those of a certain "research group" who couldn't research themselves out of a paper bag (and which loosely includes a certain person, who claims to be familiar with the files yet who persists in presenting these myths in an easily digestible audiovisual form for the intellectually impaired, or for those who simply haven't had time to catch up on developments since the early days) haven't helped at all in the quest for any objective "truth" which presumably precedes any form of justice.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2014, 03:46:00 PM
They did try to explain issues to the other police force. They didn't pay attention.
If the press couldn't be trusted, caution seems to have been the order of the day.
My personal reaction was that I found it unfair that they knew and didn't say anything. Then, when I stood back, I could understand that it was an awkward situation.
The release of the files has enabled anyone wishing to do so to verify for themselves... however few people have done so and prefer to regurgitate long-discounted myths.
And certain people, particularly those of a certain "research group" who couldn't research themselves out of a paper bag (and which loosely includes a certain person, who claims to be familiar with the files yet who persists in presenting these myths in an easily digestible audiovisual form for the intellectually impaired, or for those who simply haven't had time to catch up on developments since the early days) haven't helped at all in the quest for any objective "truth" which presumably precedes any form of justice.
I do not follow as I don't know to whom you refer.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 03, 2014, 04:00:25 PM
The point at issue was whether one believes it is a matter for a police force that does not have primacy to report matters to the press it sees as deficient in the force that does have primacy rather than speak to them directly irrespective of whether they pay attention or not.
amaral started the ball rolling by criticising the uk police...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2014, 04:07:33 PM
I think the friends and family would have gone along with the parents decision to try to resume normal life for the sake of the twins ...
When has it ever been the norm for the parents of a missing child to institute and organise their own search and investigation because the authorities were not doing so?
So who would have suspected a thing if that had not occurred?
If she can't be found the ones behind it can do what they like. But overconfidence is Smithman's weakness. He's already given the sighting time away to get his alibi and is a spitting image of the suppressed efit. They'll be looking closely at his movements and words.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 04:38:51 PM
amaral started the ball rolling by criticising the uk police...
The police force employing Dr Amaral had primacy so in that sense it is different. I just happen to believe that as matter of principle it is poor procedure for one police force to brief the press against another during the course of an investigation who ever they are. What was the point of your comment? to make a snide remark about Dr Amaral or to suggest that because he behaved in a less than satisfactory manner that constitutes carte blanche for the English police force to behave in like manner?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 05:06:27 PM
You seem otherwise able to spell...........It seemed a purposeful mis-spelling of "truth". Why was that ?
Hmmm ... thank you for your assumption I seem to be capable of spelling ... without the little squiggly red underline thingy who knows?... although why you seem to be hung up on my syntax is a bit of a mystery ... but there you are.
Just as the troof seems to be that you and I seem to be in some disagreement about when it would have been appropriate for the McCann family to return to Rothley.
Why on earth should their return have engendered 'suspicion' ... I would have thought the 'arguido' tag might have contributed to that.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carew on November 03, 2014, 05:58:35 PM
Hmmm ... thank you for your assumption I seem to be capable of spelling ... without the little squiggly red underline thingy who knows?... although why you seem to be hung up on my syntax is a bit of a mystery ... but there you are.
Just as the troof seems to be that you and I seem to be in some disagreement about when it would have been appropriate for the McCann family to return to Rothley.
Why on earth should their return have engendered 'suspicion' ... I would have thought the 'arguido' tag might have contributed to that.
I haven`t given any opinion on when it would have been appropriate for the McCann family to return to Rothley.
I didn`t feel that the thread topic required that.
Any post I made would have been to counter the assumption that a guilty person would have maintained a low profile, departing at the earliest opportunity to lead a quiet life at home with the remaining children.
I don`t think such an assumption can be made.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2014, 06:31:42 PM
Hmmm ... thank you for your assumption I seem to be capable of spelling ... without the little squiggly red underline thingy who knows?... although why you seem to be hung up on my syntax is a bit of a mystery ... but there you are.
Just as the troof seems to be that you and I seem to be in some disagreement about when it would have been appropriate for the McCann family to return to Rothley.
Why on earth should their return have engendered 'suspicion' ... I would have thought the 'arguido' tag might have contributed to that.
IMO everything they did on their return is the complete opposite of how guilty people would have behaved.
They did everything in their power to keep Madeleine's profile as high as possible and never stopped in their quest to have the case re- investigated by SY. Those are not the actions of guilty people.
And would The McCanns friends have stood by and watched them taking such dangerous courses of action - knowing that they were guilty - and that they had been their accomplices? Not a chance IMO. As it happened - they also did the opposite of guilty people - and donated their libel compensation to the fund to help the McCanns to carry on maintaining attention on this case. Guilty people would have wanted as little attention as possible - from any quarter.
Anyone who claims that any of the above is proof of 'suspicious' behaviour is actually just proving how some sceptics can convince themselves that black is actually white IMO.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 03, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
Is it not uncommon then for criminals to choose to keep a high profile and to actively campaign to have their crimes reinvestigated?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 03, 2014, 07:40:21 PM
As far as the progress of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned, I don’t think there would have been much difference, too many elementary mistakes had been made for any more progress towards finding her to be made.
As far as the investigation into Madeleine’s parents is concerned … I do not think that would have happened.
The ‘honour’ of the PJ would not have been allegedly impugned.
The dogs would not have been brought in and allegedly alerted.
The hire car would not have been hired.
The second mistaken Smith sighting would not have occurred.
The previous three statements would have meant that the McCanns would not have been made arguidos.
It is possible Dr Amaral might not have been removed from the case when he was and he would not have written his book or made his documentary.
… and no-one would be trying to find out what happened to Madeleine now.
Having thought about it, I'm not sure I agree.
We know that the McCanns were (in certain quarters!) irrationally excoriated for "fleeing from justice" leaving Portugal when they did. Had they left earlier, they'd have been excoriated all the more fiercely.
Never forget that Mark Harrison (thank goodness!) was only ever interested in solving the mystery of what happened to Madeleine; and recommended bringing in the dogs because he saw them as a valuable tool to contributing to that end. I'm certain he'd have recommended bringing them in whether the McCanns were there or not.
I think Grime would have pursued his separate agenda come what may; and all bar two of the inspections (at the villa and at the gym, because there would have been no clothes to inspect) would have gone ahead.
Remember that Harrison only ever recommended inspection of all vehicles owned or driven by Murat and I'm pretty certain he'd still have made the same recommendation.
Harrison also only ever recommended inspections in places where Madeleine either had been or conceivably might have been.
Aside from an askew reference where Harrison appears to touch his forelock and take orders from others (unspecified) about inspections in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, Harrison had nothing to do with those inspections, and conspicuously omitted reference to UK involvement in them in his summary of all searches. So a search at the villa never figured in Harrison's plans; neither of any vehicle other than those driven or owned by Murat.
I think it likely that 7 of the 8 cars besides those belonging to Murat (excluding the Renault scenic) would still have made it in, perhaps with zero result.
I think there would still have been a thrust and emphasis towards implicating the McCanns with the added propaganda of them fleeing from justice thrown in ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2014, 09:09:50 PM
We know that the McCanns were (in certain quarters!) irrationally excoriated for "fleeing from justice" leaving Portugal when they did. Had they left earlier, they'd have been excoriated all the more fiercely.
Never forget that Mark Harrison (thank goodness!) was only ever interested in solving the mystery of what happened to Madeleine; and recommended bringing in the dogs because he saw them as a valuable tool to contributing to that end. I'm certain he'd have recommended bringing them in whether the McCanns were there or not.
I think Grime would have pursued his separate agenda come what may; and all bar two of the inspections (at the villa and at the gym, because there would have been no clothes to inspect) would have gone ahead.
Remember that Harrison only ever recommended inspection of all vehicles owned or driven by Murat and I'm pretty certain he'd still have made the same recommendation.
Harrison also only ever recommended inspections in places where Madeleine either had been or conceivably might have been.
Aside from an askew reference where Harrison appears to touch his forelock and take orders from others (unspecified) about inspections in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, Harrison had nothing to do with those inspections, and conspicuously omitted reference to UK involvement in them in his summary of all searches. So a search at the villa never figured in Harrison's plans; neither of any vehicle other than those driven or owned by Murat.
I think it likely that 7 of the 8 cars besides those belonging to Murat (excluding the Renault scenic) would still have made it in, perhaps with zero result.
I think there would still have been a thrust and emphasis towards implicating the McCanns with the added propaganda of them fleeing from justice thrown in ...
I think that if the finger of suspicion had not fallen on Madeleine’s parents it is highly likely that Robert Murat would have had the full force of the investigation directed at him and I think it is possible he could have found himself in serious trouble.
Being made an arguido so early in the inquiry possibly gave him legal rights which helped him to avoid this outcome.
I think even very early on there were efforts underway to pin the crime on any feasible person … to ensure the true perpetrator\s remained in the clear.
All it would have taken imo would have been for Jane Tanner to identify the man she saw as Robert Murat. I think he was very fortunate that she was so steadfast in refusing to identify a man she had not really seen, because at that time I think the PJ believed it was him. A positive identification would have been all they needed to intensify their scrutiny to get this case solved.
I think he was being ‘set up’ with the anonymous phone call 8th May being the first move to implicate him.
On the11th May I think the PJ really thought they were on to something when the site visit suggested that the direction taken by the man seen by Jane Tanner and the proximity to the Murat villa and a named suspect tied in so well with their theory of abduction.
Suspicions of Inspector Pedro Varanda following the Diane Webster interview which Murat translated in combination with the suspicions of Chief Inspector Reis Santos ... compounded by the suspicions he raised in the British journalist would perhaps have given him a lot of trouble if the focus had remained on him.
I have read carefully what you have said but I still think if the McCanns had returned home in despair at an earlier stage in the proceedings, if Jane had mistakenly identified him and other witness statements had been taken into account, I think Robert Murat would have found himself between a rock and a hard place ... leaving the perpetrator to roam free without a care in the world because everyone would have given up on Madeleine.
I think that is why Madeleine’s parents have suffered so much abuse, because they refused to go home and let go as 99.9% of the population would have ... they refused to give up on Madeleine ... no-one is looking at the original arguidos ... but two law enforcement agencies are looking for the perpetrator\s.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 03, 2014, 11:37:59 PM
Surely you aren't getting excited about a rather bad smell in the boot of the car caused by rotting meat from a bag bought at a supermarket that burst open ...
Are you?
And seeing as Portugal has a perfectly good forensic laboratory, why wasn't cuddle-cat taken on day one for forensic examination?
Trouble is, why would they buy rotting meat at a supermarket?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: sadie on November 04, 2014, 12:26:34 AM
Trouble is, why would they buy rotting meat at a supermarket?
Meat bought anywhere, forgotten about and accidentally left for the day in a closed car in the PT heat would go off, most especially so if it was accidentally left in the car overnight as well.
If the bag burst ... then it sounds as though it was forgotten and left even longer in the car.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 04, 2014, 07:16:46 AM
I think, maybe, Slarbart's post was tongue-in-cheek?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on November 04, 2014, 08:26:45 AM
Meat bought anywhere, forgotten about and accidentally left for the day in a closed car in the PT heat would go off, most especially so if it was accidentally left in the car overnight as well.
If the bag burst ... then it sounds as though it was forgotten and left even longer in the car.
IIRC one of the other families who hired that car carried meat for a barbecue in their boot.
There are loads of innocent reasons why a boot would smell. I recently carried a box of potatoes freshly dug up from an allotment in my boot. Even after removing it - a strong 'earthy' smell lingered.
Nappies, food, bags of rubbish - all manner of material could leave an unpleasant smell in a car boot - especially in a hot climate.
A big fuss about nothing IMO.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 04, 2014, 09:46:05 AM
I think that if the finger of suspicion had not fallen on Madeleine’s parents it is highly likely that Robert Murat would have had the full force of the investigation directed at him and I think it is possible he could have found himself in serious trouble.
Being made an arguido so early in the inquiry possibly gave him legal rights which helped him to avoid this outcome.
I think even very early on there were efforts underway to pin the crime on any feasible person … to ensure the true perpetrator\s remained in the clear.
All it would have taken imo would have been for Jane Tanner to identify the man she saw as Robert Murat. I think he was very fortunate that she was so steadfast in refusing to identify a man she had not really seen, because at that time I think the PJ believed it was him. A positive identification would have been all they needed to intensify their scrutiny to get this case solved.
I think he was being ‘set up’ with the anonymous phone call 8th May being the first move to implicate him.
On the11th May I think the PJ really thought they were on to something when the site visit suggested that the direction taken by the man seen by Jane Tanner and the proximity to the Murat villa and a named suspect tied in so well with their theory of abduction.
Suspicions of Inspector Pedro Varanda following the Diane Webster interview which Murat translated in combination with the suspicions of Chief Inspector Reis Santos ... compounded by the suspicions he raised in the British journalist would perhaps have given him a lot of trouble if the focus had remained on him.
I have read carefully what you have said but I still think if the McCanns had returned home in despair at an earlier stage in the proceedings, if Jane had mistakenly identified him and other witness statements had been taken into account, I think Robert Murat would have found himself between a rock and a hard place ... leaving the perpetrator to roam free without a care in the world because everyone would have given up on Madeleine.
I think that is why Madeleine’s parents have suffered so much abuse, because they refused to go home and let go as 99.9% of the population would have ... they refused to give up on Madeleine ... no-one is looking at the original arguidos ... but two law enforcement agencies are looking for the perpetrator\s.
Interesting.
I think Amaral was being closely watched in any event, remember with arguido status hanging over his head from the Cipriano case.
The allegations against Murat were carefully examined and found wanting.
I tend to the view that that would have happened anyway, especially remembering that the prosecutors (ever watchful) seemed to have been shrewd and perceptive ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: faithlilly on November 04, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
IIRC one of the other families who hired that car carried meat for a barbecue in their boot.
There are loads of innocent reasons why a boot would smell. I recently carried a box of potatoes freshly dug up from an allotment in my boot. Even after removing it - a strong 'earthy' smell lingered.
Nappies, food, bags of rubbish - all manner of material could leave an unpleasant smell in a car boot - especially in a hot climate.
A big fuss about nothing IMO.
I have to agree Benice.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on November 04, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
IIRC one of the other families who hired that car carried meat for a barbecue in their boot.
There are loads of innocent reasons why a boot would smell. I recently carried a box of potatoes freshly dug up from an allotment in my boot. Even after removing it - a strong 'earthy' smell lingered.
Nappies, food, bags of rubbish - all manner of material could leave an unpleasant smell in a car boot - especially in a hot climate.
A big fuss about nothing IMO.
But you still feel the need to defend it @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Benice on November 04, 2014, 10:00:40 AM
It's not a defence - it's an explanation - as to why smells could be present in the boot of a car - and why the owners might want to leave the boot open to air it.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: jassi on November 04, 2014, 10:06:29 AM
Defending the defence now - nice @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Brietta on November 04, 2014, 10:18:39 AM
IIRC one of the other families who hired that car carried meat for a barbecue in their boot.
There are loads of innocent reasons why a boot would smell. I recently carried a box of potatoes freshly dug up from an allotment in my boot. Even after removing it - a strong 'earthy' smell lingered.
Nappies, food, bags of rubbish - all manner of material could leave an unpleasant smell in a car boot - especially in a hot climate.
A big fuss about nothing IMO.
Totally agree.
It would have been worth discussing …
If Eddie had gone mad at the boot; but he didn’t despite myth to the contrary.
If forensics had turned up body fluids and handfuls of hair; they didn’t despite myth to the contrary.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 04, 2014, 10:43:57 AM
The witness said always open day and night. Not for a few days to get rid of a smell but open all the time so she reported it. This same smell is still there when others come to PDL and drive the car. A smell they can't get rid off even after leaving the boot open constantly at the villa in July.
41.09 – I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end, and every time that I passed the house, and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night, and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it, and that was it.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 04, 2014, 10:50:49 AM
The witness said always open day and night. Not for a few days to get rid of a smell but open all the time so she reported it. This same smell is still there when others come to PDL and drive the car. A smell they can't get rid off even after leaving the boot open constantly at the villa in July.
41.09 – I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end, and every time that I passed the house, and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night, and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it, and that was it.
Wondered where it came from.
Came from Amaral's book.
Must be true, then ....
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 04, 2014, 10:53:06 AM
Transcript of his documentary:
40.04 – The witness who lived near the McCanns' second home, in Aldeia da Luz, who says she witnessed an uncommon fact about the McCanns' hire car, where the dogs detected cadaver odour and remains that may belong to Maddie, was not heard, either. This neighbour has signed a document authorising the broadcast of her deposition that identifies her, but fearing threats and pressures, she doesn't show her face.
40.30 – This is an interesting matter, when I left the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão, in October 2007, nothing was known about this vehicle, about this issue of the open car boot. We knew that inside the vehicle cadaver odour and bodily fluids had been found, where Madeleine McCann's DNA profile was extracted from, with 15 alleles. Months later, there is a lawyer, who lives nearby, who came to report that after the McCanns arrived at this villa, they saw the car boot open from then on.
41.09 – Witness: "I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end, and every time that I passed the house, and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night, and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it, and that was it."
41.33 – It's important to report the following: that lady, that lawyer, was never heard at the Polícia Judiciária because her deposition was not considered to be relevant, which is strange. While she was not heard, while a rogatory letter was sent to England, relatives of Gerald and Kate McCann came out to say that they had transported, inside this car boot, food from the supermarket, namely a meat package that leaked blood.
Next.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 04, 2014, 10:53:19 AM
The witness said always open day and night. Not for a few days to get rid of a smell but open all the time so she reported it. This same smell is still there when others come to PDL and drive the car. A smell they can't get rid off even after leaving the boot open constantly at the villa in July.
41.09 – I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end, and every time that I passed the house, and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night, and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it, and that was it.
Who did she report it to? Was it ever verified whose car it was... licence plate or anything? Has anyone ever found this woman's statement in the files? I haven't.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 04, 2014, 10:55:20 AM
@Jean-Pierre. Thanks. I thought not.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 04, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
Who did she report it to? Was it ever verified whose car it was... licence plate or anything? Has anyone ever found this woman's statement in the files? I haven't.
40.30 – This is an interesting matter, when I left the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão, in October 2007, nothing was known about this vehicle, about this issue of the open car boot. We knew that inside the vehicle cadaver odour and bodily fluids had been found, where Madeleine McCann's DNA profile was extracted from, with 15 alleles. Months later, there is a lawyer, who lives nearby, who came to report that after the McCanns arrived at this villa, they saw the car boot open from then on.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: ferryman on November 04, 2014, 11:03:41 AM
Who did she report it to? Was it ever verified whose car it was... licence plate or anything? Has anyone ever found this woman's statement in the files? I haven't.
Behave, Carana.
You are not supposed to ask probing and intelligent questions like that.
Doesn't help 'the cause' at all ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 04, 2014, 11:10:19 AM
40.30 – This is an interesting matter, when I left the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão, in October 2007, nothing was known about this vehicle, about this issue of the open car boot. We knew that inside the vehicle cadaver odour and bodily fluids had been found, where Madeleine McCann's DNA profile was extracted from, with 15 alleles. Months later, there is a lawyer, who lives nearby, who came to report that after the McCanns arrived at this villa, they saw the car boot open from then on.
I thought Amaral's book was entirely based on the files? Seems not if he'd already left.
So she'd presumably read the PT rags with garbled PJ leaks of non-existent gooey stuff and tufts in the boot and went to report it in case it was potentially significant. Fair enough.
That doesn't really explain why a statement wasn't taken unless it was considered irrelevant as the forensics showed nothing sinister at all.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 04, 2014, 11:40:10 AM
I thought Amaral's book was entirely based on the files? Seems not if he'd already left.
So she'd presumably read the PT rags with garbled PJ leaks of non-existent gooey stuff and tufts in the boot and went to report it in case it was potentially significant. Fair enough.
That doesn't really explain why a statement wasn't taken unless it was considered irrelevant as the forensics showed nothing sinister at all.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 04, 2014, 12:30:31 PM
Thank you for the clip of "shadow woman". How convenient for Amaral. And a jurist, to boot. 8)--))
Does that extract from Amaral's book strike anyone as having being written by someone with a firm grasp of forensics? Or evidence?
Is this really the sort of carp that convinces some people of the guilt of the McCanns?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 12:33:47 PM
Thank you for the clip of "shadow woman". How convenient for Amaral. And a jurist, to boot. 8)--))
Does that extract from Amaral's book strike anyone as having being written by someone with a firm grasp of forensics? Or evidence?
Is this really the sort of carp that convinces some people of the guilt of the McCanns?
The best bit is where Amaral, having contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, sends Prior away with a flea in his ear to berate the FSS on the PJ's powers of arrest.
Priceless ...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 04, 2014, 01:28:41 PM
While looking up the "documentary" quotes, I came across this. It's Amarals proof as to why the front door could not have been used. The bits that particularly struck me I have put in bold.
43.25 - Final Evidence
43.28 – With the help from one of the major experts from the Scientific Police, who worked for the Polícia Judiciária, Alexandre Simas, Gonçalo Amaral intends to prove, first, that it was impossible for the child to be abducted, starting by demonstrating that the indications prove that the apartment's window and door were not forced.
43.47 - How does one open a door like this, without the key?
43.51 – Alexandre Simas, Expert (Former Polícia Judiciária): "This type of apartment door, normally there are only three possibilities: to extract the lock's cannon, which didn't happen, or it would have been reported; a false key, a copy or one that was used without permission; or using a malleable material, as long as it's not locked, it's introduced, and it makes the lock go back inside. But when it goes in, even if it did, it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn't jump to open the lock for me.
44.33 – "If the door wasn't opened without a key, the window doesn't bear any traces of having been forced, either.
44.40 – "These windows have a very good characteristic to check if they were forced or not. Being made of lacquered aluminium, any screwdriver, any instrument that is used to make the lock jump, immediately leaves a mark. What we can see here, there is no break-in, the mark that is there belongs to the lock itself as it rotates, sometimes one does this with the lock in place, and it hits there. So, to open this window, all we have to do is this. To close it, it's impossible, because either one has a magnet on his fingers to pull the window…"
45.18 – Another important fact is revealed by the fingerprints that are left on the bedroom window, which the McCanns insist they left closed, and is supposedly found open when the mother notices her daughter is missing. The only fingerprints that are found belong to Kate McCann, and reveal that they were made by opening the window.
45.42 – These three indications mean that there was no abduction, and that is proved. No abductor entered apartment 5A, through the door or through the window.
_____________________
If this is the true standard of policing in Portugal, I feel a life of crime in the sun beckoning....... 8)--))
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 04, 2014, 03:24:22 PM
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. (TOTL)
Thanks Pathfinder. This is precisely the kind of garbled gobbledygook that I had in mind.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 04, 2014, 05:32:49 PM
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. (TOTL)
There were many with that belief. Read what Professor Dan Kane and Mr Justice Weir said at the trial of Sean Hoey in December 2007. Also the comments on LCN techniques made by the procedures deviser Peter Gill, at the Hoey trial; his statement led to caustic comments about the reliability of the techniques by Mr Justice Weir.
There were many with that belief. Read what Professor Dan Kane and Mr Justice Weir said at the trial of Sean Hoey in December 2007. Also the comments on LCN techniques made by the procedures deviser Peter Gill, at the Hoey trial; his statement led to caustic comments about the reliability of the techniques by Mr Justice Weir.
If you only have a small amount of material or it is degraded then I suppose LCN is better than nowt.
Provided one understands the limitations.
Like these limitations you mean?
The whole process was considered unreliable. This is from the link above which some will undoubtedly not be bothered to open LCN DNA testing has been validated only by the FSS's own scientists, rather than by outside experts, and the defence's continual questioning of the method was aided by a test result from a failed bomb explosion in Lisburn, in April 1998, that Sean Hoey was also charged with.
When the defused device was analysed using the FSS's technique, the strongest initial DNA profile was found to be that of a teenage boy from Nottinghamshire. In an attempt to bolster their case, the prosecution called Peter Gill, one of the inventors of the LCN technique. But under cross examination he said some of the results put forward by the prosecution were "valueless", and that LCN was a complex area in which there were "shades of grey".
That led Mr Justice Weir to say: "When this evidence is presented on behalf of the prosecution, no-one talks about it in terms of shades of grey. It's put forward as evidence I can rely on."
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 04, 2014, 06:15:47 PM
The whole process was considered unreliable. This is from the link above which some will undoubtedly not be bothered to open LCN DNA testing has been validated only by the FSS's own scientists, rather than by outside experts, and the defence's continual questioning of the method was aided by a test result from a failed bomb explosion in Lisburn, in April 1998, that Sean Hoey was also charged with.
When the defused device was analysed using the FSS's technique, the strongest initial DNA profile was found to be that of a teenage boy from Nottinghamshire. In an attempt to bolster their case, the prosecution called Peter Gill, one of the inventors of the LCN technique. But under cross examination he said some of the results put forward by the prosecution were "valueless", and that LCN was a complex area in which there were "shades of grey".
That led Mr Justice Weir to say: "When this evidence is presented on behalf of the prosecution, no-one talks about it in terms of shades of grey. It's put forward as evidence I can rely on."
LCN DNA testing is revolutionary (in that it allows a DNA profile to be procuded from very poor material. And can give an indication but the limitations need to be made clear and understood by those analysing the results.
This leads to two problems:
(a) There is commercial pressure on the labs which causes over exaggeration of the effectiveness of the technique.
(b) The prosecution can get a bit overexcited and forget to mention the limitations and that caution is needed.
Which underlines the need for a good defence team who can provide the necessary counterbalance. It is too easy for the court to get carried away with "expert" opinion. And means that the legal aid "reforms" are so incredibly shortsighted and will cost more money in the end.
Sorry for the slightly off topic rant -
I'll get my coat. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 04, 2014, 06:50:25 PM
The whole process was considered unreliable. This is from the link above which some will undoubtedly not be bothered to open LCN DNA testing has been validated only by the FSS's own scientists, rather than by outside experts, and the defence's continual questioning of the method was aided by a test result from a failed bomb explosion in Lisburn, in April 1998, that Sean Hoey was also charged with.
When the defused device was analysed using the FSS's technique, the strongest initial DNA profile was found to be that of a teenage boy from Nottinghamshire. In an attempt to bolster their case, the prosecution called Peter Gill, one of the inventors of the LCN technique. But under cross examination he said some of the results put forward by the prosecution were "valueless", and that LCN was a complex area in which there were "shades of grey".
That led Mr Justice Weir to say: "When this evidence is presented on behalf of the prosecution, no-one talks about it in terms of shades of grey. It's put forward as evidence I can rely on."
ooops wrong place
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 04, 2014, 07:00:39 PM
LCN DNA testing is revolutionary (in that it allows a DNA profile to be procuded from very poor material. And can give an indication but the limitations need to be made clear and understood by those analysing the results.
This leads to two problems:
(a) There is commercial pressure on the labs which causes over exaggeration of the effectiveness of the technique.
(b) The prosecution can get a bit overexcited and forget to mention the limitations and that caution is needed.
Which underlines the need for a good defence team who can provide the necessary counterbalance. It is too easy for the court to get carried away with "expert" opinion. And means that the legal aid "reforms" are so incredibly shortsighted and will cost more money in the end.
Sorry for the slightly off topic rant -
I'll get my coat. 8)-)))
I don't see designing structures or pressure vessels with such a lackadaisical attitude. Yeah well it might fall down/fail/burst/ [delete as applicable] it's a grey area. The fact that the FSS was greased and the new outfit uses a different test is perhaps indicia as Dr Amaral might say 8(>(( 8(0(*
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 07:22:25 PM
I don't see designing structures or pressure vessels with such a lackadaisical attitude. Yeah well it might fall down/fail/burst/ [delete as applicable] it's a grey area. The fact that the FSS was greased and the new outfit uses a different test is perhaps indicia as Dr Amaral might say 8(>(( 8(0(*
Amaral didn't seem to understand dna ..full stop.....if you read was is said about LCN DNA you will realise it is not the technique that was criticised but the interpretation of the results....Just because the accused dna was recognised at the scene does not prove he had been there as the presence could be explained by cross contamination..
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 07:27:22 PM
This was the statement by prof Dan Krane,
Low Copy Number tests are much more prone to flexible interpretation, than with the conventional tests.
"Because of its great sensitivity, there are much greater concerns about the persistence of DNA and its ability to be transferred from one article to another.
"It's just too easy for contamination to occur, or for DNA to have become associated with an article through very innocent, very old contact."
No criticism of the technique...just the interpretation. No one disputed that Sean Hoey's DNA was found at the crime scene by analysis by the FSS using LCN techniques...what was disputed was how it got there
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 04, 2014, 07:56:59 PM
There were many with that belief. Read what Professor Dan Kane and Mr Justice Weir said at the trial of Sean Hoey in December 2007. Also the comments on LCN techniques made by the procedures deviser Peter Gill, at the Hoey trial; his statement led to caustic comments about the reliability of the techniques by Mr Justice Weir.
Yes, I'm aware of controversial cases involving LCN.
However, in this case, where there was not enough DNA to do the tests via other means, LCN was the only other option, AFAIK. So it was that or nothing.
As it is so sensitive, contamination can occur, and requires stringent protocols and sterile conditions. An interesting Portuguese forensic blog that I'd once found explained that it wasn't that PT didn't have the technical expertise to be able to do LCN, but it was that the investment in the conditions necessary were too high (at least at the time - the blog articles would have been around 2008).
But that's not my issue with Amaral's understanding of forensics.
He makes it sound as if the lab had confirmed blood - which it hadn't... you have to read much further down to discover that, according to him, it had to be blood as Keela had reacted. (Perhaps Keela was correct, but if she is indeed capable of detecting blood to molecular level, then there's no way of detecting whose it may have been - it could even be from someone who'd previously rented the car.)
He then says that he'd been informed that 50% of Gerry's alleles were found it the sample... (Perhaps, but that's not in the FSS reports. So that must be hearsay.)
And then, this leap into fuzzy logic asserting that the remainder must therefore be blood from one of his children, and it couldn't have been one of the twins because the lab had their profiles.
In a sample containing 37 alleles from between 3 to 5 donors, and in which only 15 of Madeleine's alleles were found, and in which no blood had been identified by forensic means, that categorical assertion just doesn't follow.
As only 15 were found, either her full profile had been in it, but the sample had been degraded by the sun, humidity or whatever else, or the alleles didn't belong to her and were simply the combination of those alleles in her profile which were also present in the profiles of the various donors.
And even if it had been her DNA in the car... it still doesn't mean anything sinister at all.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 04, 2014, 08:13:25 PM
Intriguingly, he avoids saying that Madeleine had inherited all of Gerry's 10 components found in the car (if ever his information of 50% were true), neither does he mention how many of Kate's were found. There might only have been e.g., 3-4 of her components inherited from those found corresponding to his profile ... but that wouldn't fit with the theory.
If he had known, why on earth would he have missed the opportunity to say so?
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 04, 2014, 08:23:39 PM
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
Either he really doesn't understand or he's deliberately being misleading.
There could have been all 19 of her components in that soup of 37. It still wouldn't mean that it was a 100% certainty that it was indeed her as opposed to a combination of all the donors found in that sample.
And this bit:
Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test?
I don't even understand what he doesn't understand...
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 08:53:36 PM
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
Either he really doesn't understand or he's deliberately being misleading.
There could have been all 19 of her components in that soup of 37. It still wouldn't mean that it was a 100% certainty that it was indeed her as opposed to a combination of all the donors found in that sample.
And this bit:
Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test?[/i]
I don't even understand what he doesn't understand...
Amaral was wrong again...they WOULD have contributed to another persons profile
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 04, 2014, 09:26:47 PM
Amaral didn't seem to understand dna ..full stop.....if you read was is said about LCN DNA you will realise it is not the technique that was criticised but the interpretation of the results....Just because the accused dna was recognised at the scene does not prove he had been there as the presence could be explained by cross contamination..
Wouldn't have done him too much good even if he had. FSS were discredited and trashed with LCN in other cases. Or are you saying Professor Kane and others are wrong? Well I guess you are as your stock answer to anything you find inconvenient is "you are wrong"or Amaral is a w........
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 10:09:29 PM
Wouldn't have done him too much good even if he had. FSS were discredited and trashed with LCN in other cases. Or are you saying Professor Kane and others are wrong? Well I guess you are as your stock answer to anything you find inconvenient is "you are wrong"or Amaral is a w........
You really are making a fool of yourself...you do not understand Kane's criticism of LCN. Kane never criticised LCN...he criticised the interpretation of its results. LCN has been used worldwide to convict thousands...not just by the FSS. you need to get your facts right. Professor Kane was absolutely right...and so am I
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 10:13:03 PM
It has been used in more than 21,000 serious crime cases in the UK and internationally, particularly in "cold" cases. A FSS spokesman said: "LCN DNA analysis is only carried out by the most-experienced DNA scientists, who have undergone special additional training and testing in this area of casework."[5] However, the technique came under attack from the Judge during the trial of Sean Hoey - who was eventually cleared of involvement in the Omagh Bombing. One of the criticisms the judge leveled at LCN was that although the FSS had internally validated and published scientific papers on the technique, there was an alleged lack of external validation by the wider scientific community.[6] Following the Judge's ruling, the use of the technique was suspended in the UK, pending a review by the Crown Prosecution Service. This review was completed and the suspension lifted on the January 14, 2008 with the CPS stating that it had not seen anything to suggest that any current problems exist with LCN
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 04, 2014, 10:19:04 PM
Yes, I'm aware of controversial cases involving LCN.
However, in this case, where there was not enough DNA to do the tests via other means, LCN was the only other option, AFAIK. So it was that or nothing.
As it is so sensitive, contamination can occur, and requires stringent protocols and sterile conditions. An interesting Portuguese forensic blog that I'd once found explained that it wasn't that PT didn't have the technical expertise to be able to do LCN, but it was that the investment in the conditions necessary were too high (at least at the time - the blog articles would have been around 2008).
But that's not my issue with Amaral's understanding of forensics.
He makes it sound as if the lab had confirmed blood - which it hadn't... you have to read much further down to discover that, according to him, it had to be blood as Keela had reacted. (Perhaps Keela was correct, but if she is indeed capable of detecting blood to molecular level, then there's no way of detecting whose it may have been - it could even be from someone who'd previously rented the car.)
He then says that he'd been informed that 50% of Gerry's alleles were found it the sample... (Perhaps, but that's not in the FSS reports. So that must be hearsay.)
And then, this leap into fuzzy logic asserting that the remainder must therefore be blood from one of his children, and it couldn't have been one of the twins because the lab had their profiles.
In a sample containing 37 alleles from between 3 to 5 donors, and in which only 15 of Madeleine's alleles were found, and in which no blood had been identified by forensic means, that categorical assertion just doesn't follow.
As only 15 were found, either her full profile had been in it, but the sample had been degraded by the sun, humidity or whatever else, or the alleles didn't belong to her and were simply the combination of those alleles in her profile which were also present in the profiles of the various donors.
And even if it had been her DNA in the car... it still doesn't mean anything sinister at all.
Given the way the FSS were greased in at least one other case how much credibility can be placed on anything they said in the McCann case ? By their own admissions there are "grey areas". So they said "nah 't ain't anything to do with MM, conclusively"; much the same way as they said "oh yes 'twas Sean Hoey conclusively". Well we now the latter was bollocks as upheld by an English court and basically upheld by evidence given by the originator of the LCN technique. How much do you want to lay on the former being true?
Then there is the issue of their[FSS] representatives refusing to be interviewed by Summers and Swann.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
Given the way the FSS were greased in at least one other case how much credibility can be placed on anything they said in the McCann case ? By their own admissions there are "grey areas". So they said "nah 't ain't anything to do with MM, conclusively"; much the same way as they said "oh yes 'twas Sean Hoey conclusively". Well we now the latter was bollocks as upheld by an English court and basically upheld by evidence given by the originator of the LCN technique. How much do you want to lay on the former being true?
Then there is the issue of their[FSS] representatives refusing to be interviewed by Summers and Swann.
Again you need to get your facts right....The FSS never said it was Sean Hoey conclusively...on that you are 100% wrong...they said it was Sean Hoey's DNA conclusively and neither the judge, professor Kane nor defence counsel disagreed with that. The question was how Sean Hoeys dna came to be at the crime scene and the court accepted that cross contamination was POSSIBLE and therefore did not accept the evidence
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 04, 2014, 10:32:09 PM
Again you need to get your facts right....The FSS never said it was Sean Hoey conclusively...on that you are 100% wrong...they said it was Sean Hoey's DNA conclusively and neither the judge, professor Kane nor defence counsel disagreed with that. The question was how Sean Hoeys dna came to be at the crime scene and the court accepted that cross contamination was POSSIBLE and therefore did not accept the evidence
You are wriggling sunshine and it is hysterical to watch you do it the Google server must be running red hot with you. The day you do not call me fool is the day I will start to worry 8(0(*
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 04, 2014, 10:33:53 PM
You are wriggling sunshine and it is hysterical to watch you do it the Google server must be running red hot with you. The day you do not call me fool is the day I will start to worry 8(0(*
I've pointed out where you are 100% wrong and you have failed to answer the points
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 05, 2014, 09:03:36 AM
Amaral was wrong again...they WOULD have contributed to another persons profile
I know, and Lowe even tried to explain that to him, FGS.
That later got morphed into Myth No. 2056 insinuating that Lowe had therefore admitted that the scientists had deliberately contaminated the sample to prevent Amaral being proved right.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Carana on November 05, 2014, 10:58:35 AM
Given the way the FSS were greased in at least one other case how much credibility can be placed on anything they said in the McCann case ? By their own admissions there are "grey areas". So they said "nah 't ain't anything to do with MM, conclusively"; much the same way as they said "oh yes 'twas Sean Hoey conclusively". Well we now the latter was bollocks as upheld by an English court and basically upheld by evidence given by the originator of the LCN technique. How much do you want to lay on the former being true?
Then there is the issue of their[FSS] representatives refusing to be interviewed by Summers and Swann.
What's odd about that? Actually, a mystified spokesman did speak to the media (and was recorded on audio)... basicly saying that the FSS hadn't a clue how the media had come to the conclusions that were appearing in the media as the tests hadn't yet been concluded.
I may still have a link somewhere, but no guarantees, I'm afraid.
Beyond that, I'm not surprised that the FSS didn't want to be interviewed. They'd be in the same awkward position as LP if they were quoted on the garbled understanding that the original PJ team came to.
ETA: It's true that they couldn't say one way or another whether the compatible components were hers or the result of a combination of the other donors's ones.
But even if it HAD been her DNA in the car... there are perfectly legitimate explanations as to how that DNA could have been found in it. So there's no reason to lie or attempt to cover it up.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 05, 2014, 11:18:02 AM
Given the way the FSS were greased in at least one other case how much credibility can be placed on anything they said in the McCann case ? By their own admissions there are "grey areas". So they said "nah 't ain't anything to do with MM, conclusively"; much the same way as they said "oh yes 'twas Sean Hoey conclusively". Well we now the latter was bollocks as upheld by an English court and basically upheld by evidence given by the originator of the LCN technique. How much do you want to lay on the former being true?
Then there is the issue of their[FSS] representatives refusing to be interviewed by Summers and Swann.
Not that surprising really, given the FSS does not exist.
Title: Re: Did the McCann"s sudden flight from Portugal engender suspicion?
Post by: DCI on November 05, 2014, 11:25:00 AM