UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on November 03, 2014, 12:36:13 PM
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When JB left WHF he said SC seemed undisturbed and uninterested by family discussions taking place.
PB was the last known person to speak to a victim, save the claimed call from NB to JB at circa 3am. PB telephoned June at circa 10pm and during the conversation June told PB that SC was on her way to bed.
It is often said SC would not suddenly become agitated at circa 3am without any apparent provocation from others.
I have recently come across the following newspaper article which states:
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught.'
The above is a typical example of why I believe JB is the victim of a MoJ. Not just the incident per se but the fact that the likes of Mrs Temple were not called as defence witnesses.
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Quite a strange article, they have used the Jubilee picture and Jeremy is referred to as 'a friend'.
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When JB left WHF he said SC seemed undisturbed and uninterested by family discussions taking place.
PB was the last known person to speak to a victim, save the claimed call from NB to JB at circa 3am. PB telephoned June at circa 10pm and during the conversation June told PB that SC was on her way to bed.
It is often said SC would not suddenly become agitated at circa 3am without any apparent provocation from others.
I have recently come across the following newspaper article which states:
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught.'
The above is a typical example of why I believe JB is the victim of a MoJ. Not just the incident per se but the fact that the likes of Mrs Temple were not called as defence witnesses.
There is no evidence for this Holly but I do see what you are attempting to show. The only evidence which you rightly pointed out came from Pamela who reported that Sheila was unusually quiet. To reach the stage you claim would have required a massive change in mood which would have seen both Nevill and June already out of bed in an attempt to quieten her. Unfortunately for your theory we know that neither were out of bed until roused by the gunman. Nevill being shot as he went to the bedroom door and June as she lay in bed.
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There is no evidence for this Holly but I do see what you are attempting to show. The only evidence which you rightly pointed out came from Pamela who reported that Sheila was unusually quiet. To reach the stage you claim would have required a massive change in mood which would have seen both Nevill and June already out of bed in an attempt to quieten her. Unfortunately for your theory we know that neither were out of bed until roused by the gunman. Nevill being shot as he went to the bedroom door and June as she lay in bed.
It would be interesting to hear accounts from anyone who might have been with SC earlier in the day/eve prior to Mrs Temple's account to ascertain her earlier mood.
I don't believe NB was in the bedroom when June was shot initially. I think he was in the kitchen phoning JB and run up stairs when he heard gunfire.
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Quite a strange article, they have used the Jubilee picture and Jeremy is referred to as 'a friend'.
I guess it depends on your definition of "strange"! Perhaps the reporting style of some 30 years ago? Bit before your time 8(0(*
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I guess it depends on your definition of "strange"! Perhaps the reporting style of some 30 years ago? Bit before your time 8(0(*
Not before my time, but not far into it!
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Not before my time, but not far into it!
Yes you said you're a few years younger than JB. So you have some 23 years to play with 8(0(*
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751
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Yes you said you're a few years younger than JB. So you have some 23 years to play with 8(0(*
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751
He is 10 years older than me if you MUST know!
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He is 10 years older than me if you MUST know!
No MUST &%+((£
You have your cougar years to look forward to 8(0(*
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It would be interesting to hear accounts from anyone who might have been with SC earlier in the day/eve prior to Mrs Temple's account to ascertain her earlier mood.
I don't believe NB was in the bedroom when June was shot initially. I think he was in the kitchen phoning JB and run up stairs when he heard gunfire.
So what was June doing while all hell let loose according to you theory? Your theory just doesn't fit with the evidence Holly.
Sheila just didn't go from quiet to volcano without disturbing the entire house. In any event, a breakdown doesn't suddenly make someone a expert markswoman. If someone has a mental breakdown, has access to a weapon with which they are thoroughly unfamiliar and goes on a killing rampage they tend to fire off shots and miss their target. This didn't happen in the WHF murders, all but one of the shots found their target, whoever killed the family was very familiar with the rifle and a crack shot...ie Jeremy Bamber.
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So what was June doing while all hell let loose according to you theory? Your theory just doesn't fit with the evidence Holly.
Sheila just didn't go from quiet to volcano without disturbing the entire house. In any event, a breakdown doesn't suddenly make someone a expert markswoman. If someone has a mental breakdown, has access to a weapon with which they are thoroughly unfamiliar and goes on a killing rampage they tend to fire off shots and miss their target. This didn't happen in the WHF murders, all but one of the shots found their target, whoever killed the family was very familiar with the rifle and a crack shot...ie Jeremy Bamber.
Professor Macdonnell, who Jeremy hired after conviction, said June was shot with her head on the pillow. So was undoubtedly asleep when getting her first bullets.
Neville managed to move his head from his pillow seconds before getting his shots. Although he still got hit four times before getting downstairs.
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Had Sheila been emotionally disturbed that night both Nevill and June would have been aware of it, they would not have been in bed sleeping. The suggestion that Nevill was downstairs phoning for help while June lay sleeping upstairs is a non starter for so many reasons but then, we all knew that already.
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Had Sheila been emotionally disturbed that night both Nevill and June would have been aware of it, they would not have been in bed sleeping. The suggestion that Nevill was downstairs phoning for help while June lay sleeping upstairs is a non starter for so many reasons but then, we all knew that already.
There is evidence that SC was emotionally disturbed ? /upset before she went to bed so much so June discussed her concerns with PB in the circa 10pm tel con. June told PB SC was showing no interest in the twins or housework (apparently her flat was described as immaculate) and she wanted her opinion on SC. PB found SC quiet on the phone and thought it unusual that she didn't say "Goodnight Auntie Pam" as she would normally do and just ceased talking without any close?
Its entirely plausible that NB was in the kitchen with SC and phoned JB while June remained in the bedroom. NB was the parent that managed SC as best he could not June. NB fielded the late night phone calls when SC claimed she was the Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc etc. NB was the one who made the trip to London, unaccompanied by June, after FE's distress call which resulted in SC's hospitalisation.
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No, entirely implausible!
If Nevill was wide awake in the kitchen as you say, knew Sheila had a rifle and was making her way upstairs to shoot her mother or the twins, I'm pretty sure he'd have followed to get hold of it before she managed to harm anyone, instead of wasting time on the phone to call his son. What was he... a wimp?
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No, entirely implausible!
If Nevill was wide awake in the kitchen as you say, knew Sheila had a rifle and was making her way upstairs to shoot her mother or the twins, I'm pretty sure he'd have followed to get hold of it before she managed to harm anyone, instead of wasting time on the phone to call his son. What was he... a wimp?
Several people, when discussing the possibility of Sheila's agitation present her as a screaming Virago. From what we know of her earlier behaviour, ie her lethargy, lack if interest in domesticity/her children, her apparent unresponsiveness to PB, it seems far more likely that she was in a place where she couldn't be reached, MAYBE, couldn't be approached. She could still have been described as having "gone crazy," just not, at that point, actively so.
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No, entirely implausible!
If Nevill was wide awake in the kitchen as you say, knew Sheila had a rifle and was making her way upstairs to shoot her mother or the twins, I'm pretty sure he'd have followed to get hold of it before she managed to harm anyone, instead of wasting time on the phone to call his son. What was he... a wimp?
I couldn't agree more, Myster. Ralph's supposed message was urgent, "Come quick, your sister's gone crazy with the gun" and not "We're worried about your sister, can you come over and help us settle her down and get her back into bed?" Ralph had no way of knowing how long it would take Bamber to answer his phone, if at all. He couldn't afford to waste a single moment if Sheila HAD A GUN. He would have to try and disarm her before he did anything else.
Another example of how Bamber didn't quite think it through.
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Pure guess work Holly with no evidence whatsoever that supports this theory.
It must have been a very quiet 'episode' Sheila had because we know June and the twins remained in bed asleep until Bamber they were shot there. 'Sheila going nuts with a gun' and June staying in bed with the twins alone in another room is just implausible. Just as implausible as Neville leaving his wife and grandsons in mortal danger to go downstairs to call Jeremy! Especially when he had a bedside telephone and another upstairs in his office!
There is evidence of Sheila's mood that day. Neighbours stated they saw her and the twins skipping down the road as they were out enjoying a bright summer's day on the farm. They even visited their killer as Jeremy worked on the farm.
You do such a disservice to poor murdered Sheila with these groundless 'theories'! Sheila by all accounts doted on her boys and adored her father; baseless accusations that that this young mum with no history of violence murdered them are unfair poppycock!
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Pure guess work Holly with no evidence whatsoever that supports this theory.
It must have been a very quiet 'episode' Sheila had because we know June and the twins remained in bed asleep until Bamber they were shot there. 'Sheila going nuts with a gun' and June staying in bed with the twins alone in another room is just implausible. Just as implausible as Neville leaving his wife and grandsons in mortal danger to go downstairs to call Jeremy! Especially when he had a bedside telephone and another upstairs in his office!
There is evidence of Sheila's mood that day. Neighbours stated they saw her and the twins skipping down the road as they were out enjoying a bright summer's day on the farm. They even visited their killer as Jeremy worked on the farm.
You do such a disservice to poor murdered Sheila with these groundless 'theories'! Sheila by all accounts doted on her boys and adored her father; baseless accusations that that this young mum with no history of violence murdered them are unfair poppycock!
I fully appreciate what you are saying here Tim. JB was found guilty in a court of law some 28 years ago. We now have the internet where it is possible to exchange information/ideas etc on a public forum and discuss contentious issues. As you have previously acknowledged I always try to remain respectful to the victims and prosecution witnesses but there is no getting away from the fact that if I believe JB is the victim of a MoJ then by default I believe SC was responsible. Prior to posting on these forums I carefully reviewed, to the best of my ability, all the information in the public domain for 2 years.
Other posts cover your first para.
SC's moods were volatile. Prior to her hospitalisation circa March 1985 she appeared stable so much so that her friend, Tara, left her young daughter in SC's care. SC's mood changed from stable to very disturbed in a matter of minutes over some telephony issue. Thankfully Freddie was in SC's company and immediately called Tara to collect her young daughter. CC's mother (Mrs Brencher) was also called to collect the twins. NB was called and arrived the following day. SC was admitted to hospital for psychiatric treatment.
I do not think Dr F was a credible expert witness at all. Imo he was conflicted by his much earlier treatment of June circa 1959 when June was admitted to a psychiatric hospital for severe depression due to her decision to adopt SC. At this point the authorities eg social services should have been alerted and SC should have been permanently removed from the Bambers' care and the Bambers should have been prevented from adopting any further children. Imo there is now a mountain of evidence from research over the last 30 years showing that this is where the answers to WHF lie:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4513.msg163034#msg163034
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Andrea thinking about it further did the supposed conversation re fostering loom large in June's mind as I believe SC was placed in foster care when June was admitted to St Andrews psychiatric hospital 1959 for severe depression due to her decision to adopt SC? I have only read from other posters that SC was placed in foster care so don't know how reliable it is. I would have thought NB could have managed alone with help from PB but perhaps it was taken out of their hands if SS became involved?
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It would be interesting to hear accounts from anyone who might have been with SC earlier in the day/eve prior to Mrs Temple's account to ascertain her earlier mood.
I don't believe NB was in the bedroom when June was shot initially. I think he was in the kitchen phoning JB and run up stairs when he heard gunfire.
You believing irrational things for no good reason doesn't really mean much.
Aside form the claim you posted not being very credible it doens't speak to when it supposedly occurred. Was it when she wasn't on her medicationa dn uring the episode that Freddie spoke about? Was it prior to her even being treated period? You don't know or care you just want anything you can to rely on to support what you choose to believe occurred regardles sof whether it actually happened or actually supports your claims. Unless the alleged screms happened while she was on her medicine and related to her illness as opposed to someone disturbing her you have no way at all to say that the would just suddenly have episodes early in the morning for no reason despite being on her medicine.
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You believing irrational things for no good reason doesn't really mean much.
Aside form the claim you posted not being very credible it doens't speak to when it supposedly occurred. Was it when she wasn't on her medicationa dn uring the episode that Freddie spoke about? Was it prior to her even being treated period? You don't know or care you just want anything you can to rely on to support what you choose to believe occurred regardles sof whether it actually happened or actually supports your claims. Unless the alleged screms happened while she was on her medicine and related to her illness as opposed to someone disturbing her you have no way at all to say that the would just suddenly have episodes early in the morning for no reason despite being on her medicine.
You regard anyone who doesn't share your views as "irrational". If you want to label me as "irrational" that's fine by me. Your opinion of me personally/my posts means diddly squat.
I have already said in previous posts that I am not convinced that SC was a paranoid schizophrenic and if she was then I think she also had other issues running alongside that diagnosis:
- Issues relating to adoption gone awry
- Attachment Disorder
- Possibly Borderline Personality Disorder
- Possibly a dissociative disorder
As such I don't place much reliance on Dr F's diagnosis and treatment. I have never commented on SC's mediation as I think it was ineffective in treating the root cause.
I think Dr F was conflicted by his treatment of June circa 1959 for severe depression due to her decision to adopt SC. He was being paid privately by the Bambers. There is no evidence that June and SC received family therapy and there's no evidence that Dr F was honest and open with SC and explained that June became severely depressed in 1959 as a result of her decision to adopt SC and the adverse affects.
In Dr F's WS he states he doesn't think the illnesses were caused by the same problem but fails to tell us what he thinks they were caused by.
"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3094.0
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4513.msg163034#msg163034