UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Myster on November 03, 2014, 05:23:18 PM
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So Sheila manages to get hold of the rifle from the settle in the back hall, loads the magazine then sneaks past her father assuming he's already standing/seated in the kitchen?, up to the bedroom, and pumps several bullets into her mother. Meanwhile, Nevill hears gunshots, doesn't dash upstairs as any normal father would do, but stalls wasting valuable seconds to phone his son (who never got on with her) for help, then runs upstairs to be confronted with Sheila and does nothing to calm her down or overpower her. The same father who she idolised and would spend hours talking to on the phone listening to her problems. Yep Holly, that sure makes sense!
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So Sheila manages to get hold of the rifle from the settle in the back hall, loads the magazine then sneaks past her father assuming he's already standing/seated in the kitchen?, up to the bedroom, and pumps several bullets into her mother. Meanwhile, Nevill hears gunshots, doesn't dash upstairs as any normal father would do, but stalls wasting valuable seconds to phone his son (who never got on with her) for help, then runs upstairs to be confronted with Sheila and does nothing to calm her down or overpower her. The same father who she idolised and would spend hours talking to on the phone listening to her problems. Yep Holly, that sure makes sense!
No, no, no! There was no sneaking past NB. NB told JB over the phone SC had the gun and was going crazy/berserk. At this point NB had no idea whether or not the .22 was loaded let alone whether or not SC would fire a shot. NB had a very low opinion of the local police and family privacy was paramount hence he called JB. Much the same way Freddie called NB when SC became disturbed on a previous occasion. As NB was on the phone to JB he heard gunshots ring out dropped the phone and run to the bedroom, where he was shot 4 times before retreating to the kitchen where he collapsed in the chair and was easily overpowered 8(8-))
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No, no, no! There was no sneaking past NB. NB told JB over the phone SC had the gun and was going crazy/berserk. At this point NB had no idea whether or not the .22 was loaded let alone whether or not SC would fire a shot. NB had a very low opinion of the local police and family privacy was paramount hence he called JB. Much the same way Freddie called NB when SC became disturbed on a previous occasion. As NB was on the phone to JB he heard gunshots ring out dropped the phone and run to the bedroom, where he was shot 4 times before retreating to the kitchen where he collapsed in the chair and was easily overpowered 8(8-))
Yes, yes, yes! The first reaction of any father whose daughter was going berserk with his firearm would be to disarm her asap, especially if he knew that she had never used it before. This was a newish Anschutz 525, relatively low-powered for dispatching a human with just a couple of bullets unless accurately directed at the heart or brain. What would stop him taking a chance to disarm Sheila before she had a chance to fire off any misplaced or wayward shots at him? Absolutely nothing, imo. He was very familiar with firearms and their properties, bigger and stronger, no doubt capable of completely flattening Sheila if necessary! The haloperidol made sure she was dozy and slow enough to be overpowered.
And I can't accept that just because it was reported that Nevill had a low opinion of the local plod he had to call Jeremy instead of 999 in such a dire life or death situation. When the police were taking witness statements at the cottage a few hours after the murders, wasn't it Jeremy who according to Colin Caffell, said that it sounded as if his father had already been injured, i.e. shot in the mouth and therefore rendered incapable of speaking clearly, if at all. (see Vanezis)
What I do find odd though is how on earth he came to be straddled and precariously balanced across that chair back with his pyjama pants wrapped around his ankles, and head in the coal scuttle. Very strange position to be in, as if he was deliberately lifted there by the killer... impossible for a lightweight like Sheila to have done so, and without that person getting blood on their clothing at the same time, imo.
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No, no, no! There was no sneaking past NB. NB told JB over the phone SC had the gun and was going crazy/berserk. At this point NB had no idea whether or not the .22 was loaded let alone whether or not SC would fire a shot. NB had a very low opinion of the local police and family privacy was paramount hence he called JB. Much the same way Freddie called NB when SC became disturbed on a previous occasion. As NB was on the phone to JB he heard gunshots ring out dropped the phone and run to the bedroom, where he was shot 4 times before retreating to the kitchen where he collapsed in the chair and was easily overpowered 8(8-))
If there was a chance the rifle was not loaded, wouldn't that make it more likely Neville would try to disarm her ?
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Yes, yes, yes! The first reaction of any father whose daughter was going berserk with his firearm would be to disarm her asap, especially if he knew that she had never used it before. This was a newish Anschutz 525, relatively low-powered for dispatching a human with just a couple of bullets unless accurately directed at the heart or brain. What would stop him taking a chance to disarm Sheila before she had a chance to fire off any misplaced or wayward shots at him? Absolutely nothing, imo. He was very familiar with firearms and their properties, bigger and stronger, no doubt capable of completely flattening Sheila if necessary! The haloperidol made sure she was dozy and slow enough to be overpowered.
And I can't accept that just because it was reported that Nevill had a low opinion of the local plod he had to call Jeremy instead of 999 in such a dire life or death situation. When the police were taking witness statements at the cottage a few hours after the murders, wasn't it Jeremy who according to Colin Caffell, said that it sounded as if his father had already been injured, i.e. shot in the mouth and therefore rendered incapable of speaking clearly, if at all. (see Vanezis)
What I do find odd though is how on earth he came to be straddled and precariously balanced across that chair back with his pyjama pants wrapped around his ankles, and head in the coal scuttle. Very strange position to be in, as if he was deliberately lifted there by the killer... impossible for a lightweight like Sheila to have done so, and without that person getting blood on their clothing at the same time, imo.
As I said imo the reason NB didn't call the police was two-fold: low regard for local police and family privacy which was very important to the Bambers. Yes NB could have attempted to have overpowered SC and take a calculated gamble at a wayward shot ricocheting and ultimately hitting NB, albeit non-life threatening. Or receiving a non-life threatening shot direct. However if he was shot non-fatally in any scuffle he would need to involve the authorities in a) getting the wound treated b) would SC keep it in-house c) he would know that he could not brush this under the carpet and let SC have any unsupervised contact with the twins etc, etc. NB would be mindful of shooting accidents having accidentally blinded June's fathers, Leslie Speakman, in one eye. NB fired a shot which hit a tree, ricocheted and hit Leslie Speakman in the eye blinding him.
I don't recall JB saying anything in his WS's to the effect that NB had been shot at the time of making the said call?
Whether SC or JB why would either pull down NB's pyjamas etc and stage his body? Think it was just the way poor NB fell. If JB and he was motivated by greed why would he waste time pulling down NB's pyjamas and staging his body in the kitchen and yet replace a bloody, paint covered silencer with a hair attached in the gun cupboard?
Anyway I am sure all will be revealed shortly when PH releases his book providing the definitive account which will end all speculation once and for all 8(0(*
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As I said imo the reason NB didn't call the police was two-fold: low regard for local police and family privacy which was very important to the Bambers. Yes NB could have attempted to have overpowered SC and take a calculated gamble at a wayward shot ricocheting and ultimately hitting NB, albeit non-life threatening. Or receiving a non-life threatening shot direct. However if he was shot non-fatally in any scuffle he would need to involve the authorities in a) getting the wound treated b) would SC keep it in-house c) he would know that he could not brush this under the carpet and let SC have any unsupervised contact with the twins etc, etc. NB would be mindful of shooting accidents having accidentally blinded June's fathers, Leslie Speakman, in one eye. NB fired a shot which hit a tree, ricocheted and hit Leslie Speakman in the eye blinding him.
I don't recall JB saying anything in his WS's to the effect that NB had been shot at the time of making the said call?
Whether SC or JB why would either pull down NB's pyjamas etc and stage his body? Think it was just the way poor NB fell. If JB and he was motivated by greed why would he waste time pulling down NB's pyjamas and staging his body in the kitchen and yet replace a bloody, paint covered silencer with a hair attached in the gun cupboard?
Anyway I am sure all will be revealed shortly when PH releases his book providing the definitive account which will end all speculation once and for all 8(0(*
I'm not going to repeat what I've already said!
But you'll have read CC's account in his "In Search Of...." as to what JB said to the police, AE and himself at the cottage. So you either believe CC or you don't... simple.
I didn't say anything about having his pyjama pants deliberately pulled down, because I've always thought they fell down on their own during the struggle which you say never took place, or even as he was being positioned astride the chair by someone. Having worn similar M&S pants with an elasticated waist, they do tend to become loose after being hot-washed a few times and with use. If the pants were cotton-belted, that could also have become untied.
Try balancing on a spindle-backed edge of a chair while leaning forward and without kneeling to find out how difficult it is to stop yourself falling over.... and that while alive.
I blinkin' well hope so, with a guilty opinion too then we could all leave.
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I'm not going to repeat what I've already said!
But you'll have read CC's account in his "In Search Of...." as to what JB said to the police, AE and himself at the cottage. So you either believe CC or you don't... simple.
I didn't say anything about having his pyjama pants deliberately pulled down, because I've always thought they fell down on their own during the struggle which you say never took place, or even as he was being positioned astride the chair by someone. Having worn similar M&S pants with an elasticated waist, they do tend to become loose after being hot-washed a few times and with use. If the pants were cotton-belted, that could also have become untied.
Try balancing on a spindle-backed edge of a chair while leaning forward and without kneeling to find out how difficult it is to stop yourself falling over.... and that while alive.
I blinkin' well hope so, with a guilty opinion too then we could all leave.
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I don't think CC lied at any stage but as the judge in the OP trial said:
Judge Thokozile Masipa says the testimony of the neighbours were “correctly in my view” criticised by the defence for being unreliable.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/11089276/Oscar-Pistorius-verdict-judge-rules-witnesses-testimony-unreliable.html
CC wrote his book several years after the murders and could easily be mistaken in his recollection.
I thought NB was found seated on his favourite kitchen chair with his head forward resting on the coal scuttle. I think he sought solace in his favourite chair and if he self-positioned in the normal seated position I don't believe he would topple forward 8(8-))
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Nevill wasn't seated... just look at the colour photo and the precarious position he was left in, straddled across the sharp edge of a chair back!
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Nevill wasn't seated... just look at the colour photo and the precarious position he was left in, straddled across the sharp edge of a chair back!
Ralph's body was in that strange, precarious position because he was knocked from his chair by the police when they entered the kitchen. At least 2 officers would have picked him up, placed him on the overturned chair, and to manage the resulting blood flow from his (disturbed) head wounds, put the scuttle under his head and placed the clothes and cushions on the floor. Ralph could only be in that position due to rigor mortis, which was exacerbated by his age, slim build, the heat from the Aga and the exertion of struggling with Bamber just before he received the final shots to his head.
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The following two photos were taken of Nevill Bamber shortly after police entered the farmhouse. The colour photo is too graphic to post so has the body silhouetted out.
Notice how a cushion and other fabric have been placed by police to stem the spread of blood.
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Ralph's body was in that strange, precarious position because he was knocked from his chair by the police when they entered the kitchen. At least 2 officers would have picked him up, placed him on the overturned chair, and to manage the resulting blood flow from his (disturbed) head wounds, put the scuttle under his head and placed the clothes and cushions on the floor. Ralph could only be in that position due to rigor mortis, which was exacerbated by his age, slim build, the heat from the Aga and the exertion of struggling with Bamber just before he received the final shots to his head.
So "Dead Bodies Do Move" after all! Is that table still wonky and in need of levelling?
By the time the raid team broke in, Nevill's heart was well and truly stopped and if the police did move him, there shouldn't have been so much blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor. All that blood could only have come from the four final shots to his head (fired by JB) while it was in the scuttle and the heart was still pumping... just my opinion!
Good to see you posting again! 8((()*/
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The following two photos were taken of Nevill Bamber shortly after police entered the farmhouse. The colour photo is too graphic to post so has the body silhouetted out.
Notice how a cushion and other fabric have been placed by police to stem the spread of blood.
And these sad images also underline why Ralph's body was originally presumed to be female. Before his body was knocked over, he was slumped in his chair with his long hair flopped forward. THAT was what was seen from the window. On entry, presumed female body found to be male body. Hence the confused log. We all know that EP were massively out of their depth and weren't the brightest bulbs on the tree.
They got there in the end, though.
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So "Dead Bodies Do Move" after all! Is that table still wonky and in need of levelling?
By the time the raid team broke in, Nevill's heart was well and truly stopped and if the police did move him, there shouldn't have been so much blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor. All that blood could only have come from the four final shots to his head (fired by JB) while it was in the scuttle and the heart was still pumping... just my opinion!
Good to see you posting again! 8((()*/
Re: the blood flow - have a squiz at the Rettendon Murders - they had been dead for hours, but bled out like b....r on the slabs.
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Those pictures are horrific.
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CC wrote his book several years after the murders and could easily be mistaken in his recollection.
I thought NB was found seated on his favourite kitchen chair with his head forward resting on the coal scuttle. I think he sought solace in his favourite chair and if he self-positioned in the normal seated position I don't believe he would topple forward 8(8-))
I don't think Colin Caffell was mistaken. DC Mick Clark and Ann Eaton would also have heard what JB said...
(http://i.imgur.com/7WOS8Oq.jpg?2)
If NB had already been shot in the mouth, tongue and larynx, then according to Dr Vanezis he would have been incapable of coherent speech. How does this square with JB's assertion that NB told him quite clearly that Sheila had gone berserk and got hold of a gun?
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Jeremy's Witness Statement says he got Neville's call at 3.10am.
His Official Site, which I have been informed Jeremy manages says he called the police at 3.36am.
Good to see Jeremy only taking 26 minutes to respond to Neville's request to 'come quickly'.
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Jeremy complained about the time the police left him hanging on the line in his 3.36am call. So this, together with the time it took to give the police the details of who what and where regarding WHF, means the call could have lasted ten minutes. Ending at 3.46am.
Jeremy drove very slowly to WHF. Being passed by the police. The journey would have taken him around ten minutes.
So not sure how he met the police at 3.48am.
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I don't think Colin Caffell was mistaken. DC Mick Clark and Ann Eaton would also have heard what JB said...
(http://i.imgur.com/7WOS8Oq.jpg?2)
If NB had already been shot in the mouth, tongue and larynx, then according to Dr Vanezis he would have been incapable of coherent speech. How does this square with JB's assertion that NB told him quite clearly that Sheila had gone berserk and got hold of a gun?
Is the above from CC's WS or book?
I've had a quick look back on AE's WS and she doesn't make any ref to it. Neither does JB in his WS. I don't think I've ever read a WS from DC Mick Clark.
Based on Dr V's evidence it would not have been possible for NB to engage in purposeful conversation having suffered the facial shots. If NB phoned JB imo it would have been before any shots were fired.
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Jeremy's Witness Statement says he got Neville's call at 3.10am.
His Official Site, which I have been informed Jeremy manages says he called the police at 3.36am.
Good to see Jeremy only taking 26 minutes to respond to Neville's request to 'come quickly'.
Adam in the absence of digital/satellite technology the timing of the phone calls are hopelessly unreliable. Especially when JB was not formally interviewed until a month after the murders. No one eg JB, JM, students, police etc would have any idea of the importance of the phone calls/times at the time of receiving the calls. As I said it was over a month until the minutiae became important by which time memories fade.
The judge in the OP trial refused to use witness testimony with regard to the sequence of screams as she said it unreliable. Instead she relied on phone calls to provide a timeline - satellite/digital technology.
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I don't think Colin Caffell was mistaken. DC Mick Clark and Ann Eaton would also have heard what JB said...
(http://i.imgur.com/7WOS8Oq.jpg?2)
If NB had already been shot in the mouth, tongue and larynx, then according to Dr Vanezis he would have been incapable of coherent speech. How does this square with JB's assertion that NB told him quite clearly that Sheila had gone berserk and got hold of a gun?
CC also says he thinks it was JB that spotted movement at the window when according to PS Bewes it was in fact PC Myall:
4.00 in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
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Jeremy complained about the time the police left him hanging on the line in his 3.36am call. So this, together with the time it took to give the police the details of who what and where regarding WHF, means the call could have lasted ten minutes. Ending at 3.46am.
Jeremy drove very slowly to WHF. Being passed by the police. The journey would have taken him around ten minutes.
So not sure how he met the police at 3.48am.
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Jeremy also said he phoned Julie after phoning the police. Which would have added on more minutes. I understand the phone was in the hallway and it would have taken time to answer. People are usually asleep at 3.48am.
So if his calls to the police and Julie took him past 3.48am, how did he arrive at WHF by 3.48am ? Anyway Julie and her flatmates suggested the call was at 3am. Ten minutes before Neville's 'mysterious' call to Jeremy.
And what the heck was Jeremy doing between 3.10am - 3.36am.
The 3.26am call to Chelmsford police was from Neville, according to the official site. Not sure why Neville would also call a police station miles away, rather than Witham, relatives, or the Foakes's. He already knew Jeremy was speeding over. The policeman who took Jeremy's call did not mention Neville's call, preferring to take time taking down the exact same details Neville had given them.
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Jeremy also said he phoned Julie after phoning the police. Which would have added on more minutes. I understand the phone was in the hallway and it would have taken time to answer. People are usually asleep at 3.48am.
So if his calls to the police and Julie took him past 3.48am, how did he arrive at WHF by 3.48am ? Anyway Julie and her flatmates suggested the call was at 3am. Ten minutes before Neville's 'mysterious' call to Jeremy.
And what the heck was Jeremy doing between 3.10am - 3.36am.
The 3.26am call to Chelmsford police was from Neville, according to the official site. Not sure why Neville would also call a police station miles away, rather than Witham, relatives, or the Foakes's. He already knew Jeremy was speeding over. The policeman who took Jeremy's call did not mention Neville's call, preferring to take time taking down the exact same details Neville had given them.
I have been a member of Blue/Red for nearly 3 years. Prior to this I read the Blue forum for a year as a guest. I have seen all sorts of weird and wonderful posts re the phone calls/timing incl a debate as to whether JB had a pee and if so did he drip dry, use loo roll or shake dry and how long each would take. No I'm not going there. All I have to say is that in the absence of digital/satellite technology it's hopelessly unreliable and absolutely impossible to prove whether the call from NB to JB was made or not.
I doubt very much that NB called EP.
It is possible that JB called JM prior to calling EP. In her WS of 8th Aug she said she was better able to communicate with SC and JB could be awkward not knowing what to say/do when SC made "odd" statements. Perhaps not surprising given that JM was training to be a teacher ie she should have been the better communicator. He may well have called JM asking her opinion of what he should do and then felt a bit embarrassed admitting to EP (rough old middle aged cops ie he didn't want to look like a public school boy tw*t)that he deferred to his girlfriend.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1010
There's evidence that NB had a low opinion of the local police and that family privacy was paramount to the Bambers. All potentially reasons why NB would try to avoid calling the police and seek out support from immediate family ie JB. NB would not call the relatives as they knew nothing about the severity of SC's mental illness and NB would want to keep it that way. For this reason NB was even less likely to contact the Foakes. By the time shots were fired and these concerns needed setting aside as the situation had quickly escalated to critical it was sadly too late.
1. NB had a low opinion of the police as stated in RB's WS
"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":
(bottom of 1st, top of 2nd)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652
2. The Bambers were private people as stated in CC's book:
"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam. Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden. Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it? I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence. They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong. These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".
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A very well reasoned post IMO
when the full horror of what had happened unfolded - of course JB would be embarrassed he had not taken the correct action. Life is full of what ifs.
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A very well reasoned post IMO
when the full horror of what had happened unfolded - of course JB would be embarrassed he had not taken the correct action. Life is full of what ifs.
Cheers Guinness 8((()*/
I'm more a lager in the summer and real ale in the winter sort of girl. Have a stout occasionally. In fact might have one later for a change. I run a few miles most days so haven't developed a beer belly YET!
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A very well reasoned post IMO
when the full horror of what had happened unfolded - of course JB would be embarrassed he had not taken the correct action. Life is full of what ifs.
He wasn't too embarrassed about his behaviour following his handiwork was he? He couldn't even be bothered to turn up for his parents memorial. What a tosser.
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Had Nevill Banner phoned Jeremy after being shot in the mouth he would have damn well have made it known, assuming as Myster has already pointed out, that he could even speak. We can thus rule out the making of any phone call by Nevill after sustaining those first wounds. In addition, I think the embarrassment factor would have been null and void had he actually been shot and seriously injured and in those circumstances it would have been 999 that he would have phoned and not Jeremy.
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Had Nevill Banner phoned Jeremy after being shot in the mouth he would have damn well have made it known, assuming as Myster has already pointed out, that he could even speak. We can thus rule out the making of any phone call by Nevill after sustaining those first wounds. In addition, I think the embarrassment factor would have been null and void had he actually been shot and seriously injured and in those circumstances it would have been 999 that he would have phoned and not Jeremy.
Yes I agree. If NB phoned JB it was before any shots were fired. Dr V makes it clear that after NB received the shots in the bedroom he would be incapable of purposeful talk and limited to inaudible groans.
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Holly, you forget that had Nevill made the phonecall to Jeremy, his assailant was standing beside him ready to cut off the call. Can you really imagine a scenario where that person was a mentally unstable Sheila? Remember the words which Jeremy said his father uttered and picture Sheila being in a position to end that call suddenly. I'm afraid the two are incompatible since an out of control person can normally be heard to utter something...don't you think?
Ask yourself this question Holly. Did Jeremy report hearing Sheila's voice, even once? No he didn't and that is where the pretence fell down.
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Holly, you forget that had Nevill made the phonecall to Jeremy, his assailant was standing beside him ready to cut off the call. Can you really imagine a scenario where that person was a mentally unstable Sheila? Remember the words which Jeremy said his father uttered and picture Sheila being in a position to end that call suddenly. I'm afraid the two are incompatible since an out of control person can normally be heard to utter something...don't you think?
Ask yourself this question Holly. Did Jeremy report hearing Sheila's voice, even once? No he didn't and that is where the pretence fell down.
No I don't think SC was standing by NB ready/waiting to disable any call. I think NB phoned JB from the kitchen and SC fled to the bedroom and shot June. Hence the phone in the kitchen was found off the cradle as NB hearing shots dropped the phone and fled to the bedroom where he was also shot.
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Bamber said in his WS that it sounded like the call had been cut off. If Neville had just put the phone on the kitchen sideboard the call wouldn't have been cut off and Bamber would have heard what was going on.
And do you really think that Neville would have left a gun out when there were 2 young boys staying at WHF that night?
Neville had been a farmer for years and knew how dangerous that would have been with those boys around, kids touch and explore everything, a gun would have been no exception.
Its all too convenient, Holly. This had been cooked up by Bamber for months and months. The supposed discussion about adoption, the gun left laying around. You only have Bambers word for any of this. All the other witnesses to this so called discussion and the gun are all dead.
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Bamber said in his WS that it sounded like the call had been cut off. If Neville had just put the phone on the kitchen sideboard the call wouldn't have been cut off and Bamber would have heard what was going on.
And do you really think that Neville would have left a gun out when there were 2 young boys staying at WHF that night?
Neville had been a farmer for years and knew how dangerous that would have been with those boys around, kids touch and explore everything, a gun would have been no exception.
Its all too convenient, Holly. This had been cooked up by Bamber for months and months. The supposed discussion about adoption, the gun left laying around. You only have Bambers word for any of this. All the other witnesses to this so called discussion and the gun are all dead.
If SC fled from the kitchen to the bedroom when NB was on the phone to JB with NB leaving the handset off the cradle
and on the worktop when/if he heard gunfire from the bedroom, JB would not have heard the background noise from that distance. You can test it with your landline and mobile. JB tried to call back to ascertain what NB wanted JB to do. NB probably expected to add further/continue his call with JB.
I agree NB would not leave a loaded gun around with the twins at WHF. JB surely realised this? There was nothing to stop SC going to the gun cupboard and preparing it for use. JB was just being truthful in accounting for his last movements at WHF. If he wanted to lie/embellish he would surely have added that SC became upset/distressed/angry about the supposed conversations about the twins being fostered/adopted? He didn't though; he said SC didn't add a lot to the conversations and seem uninterested.
If you read CC's mother's WS on Blue (Mrs Brencher) you will see she refers to a fairly recent conversation with June where June states she is worried the twins will be taken into foster care so there is an independent witness confirming June spoke in these terms. We know Andrea this was unlikely to happen from a legal perspective but perhaps others didn't at the time including SC. Whether June knew this too and used it to try and control the situation or she held a genuine fear I have no idea.
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Holly, Nevill never dropped the phone handset, the call was cancelled and the handset left to dangle. A minor but significant difference like so many things in this case.
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Holly, Nevill never dropped the phone handset, the call was cancelled and the handset left to dangle. A minor but significant difference like so many things in this case.
Ah I thought the line was left open WHF end with the handset left on the kitchen worktop as it was found by EP? JB attempted to call back to ascertain what action NB wanted him to take and received the engaged tone? I thought the line was left open WHF end and a BT operator was able to listen in (heard nothing) under the direction of EP?
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Ah I thought the line was left open WHF end with the handset left on the kitchen worktop as it was found by EP? JB attempted to call back to ascertain what action NB wanted him to take and received the engaged tone? I thought the line was left open WHF end and a BT operator was able to listen in (heard nothing) under the direction of EP?
It was.
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Ah I thought the line was left open WHF end with the handset left on the kitchen worktop as it was found by EP? JB attempted to call back to ascertain what action NB wanted him to take and received the engaged tone? I thought the line was left open WHF end and a BT operator was able to listen in (heard nothing) under the direction of EP?
No and yes. Assuming for a minute such a call was made from WHF, you have to understand the workings of the GPO telephone exchange as it was back in 1985. The call ended abruptly as the cradle was pushed down to end the call. The handset was left dangling and the phone would emit a dialing tone. At the Goldhanger end all that would have been heard was a continuous tone signalling that the caller had ended the call.
After a while the dialing tone at the WHF end would cease. The GPO operator only had to connect to the line to hear any input from the farmhouse.
Had the call not been ended and the line left open then JB would have heard background noises and he would not have been able to make any call to Julie since the call from WHF would be blocking his line.
Hope this helps. 8((()*/
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No and yes. Assuming for a minute such a call was made from WHF, you have to understand the workings of the GPO telephone exchange as it was back in 1985. The call ended abruptly as the cradle was pushed down to end the call. The handset was left dangling and the phone would emit a dialing tone. At the Goldhanger end all that would have been heard was a continuous tone signalling that the caller had ended the call.
After a while the dialing tone at the WHF end would cease. The GPO operator only had to connect to the line to hear any input from the farmhouse.
Had the call not been ended and the line left open then JB would have heard background noises and he would not have been able to make any call to Julie since the call from WHF would be blocking his line.
Hope this helps. 8((()*/
JB said it sounded as though he had been cut off but I haven't heard him refer to any "continuous tone". When receiving a call it's only possible to hear immediate background noise from the caller. If NB had left the handset on the worktop, as it was found, and went upstairs I don't believe JB would be able to hear even loud noises eg gunshot? Of course all this should have been thoroughly investigated at the time by ascertaining decibels from the rifle and ammo within a closed environment. How long did JB wait until he claims he ended the call his end and called WHF only to receive the engaged tone. This seems to corroborate with expert testimony at trial:
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
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When JB was asked why NB would call him (JB) and not the police JB claims that NB was not the sort to get organisations involved and preferred to keep things in the family:
29. The appellant told the officers about the telephone call from his father, adding that it sounded as though someone had cut him off. When asked if it was possible that his sister was inside with a gun he said yes. He told the police that he did not get on with her. He was asked if it was likely that his sister had gone berserk with a gun and he replied, "I don't really know. She is a nutter. She's been having treatment." When asked why his father had called him and not the police, he said that his father was not the sort of person to get "organisations" involved, preferring to keep things within the family. When asked why he had not dialled 999, the appellant said he did not think it would make any difference to the time it would have taken for the police to arrive.
The above seems to corroborate with independent witnesses:
1. NB had a low opinion of the police as stated in RB's WS
"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":
(bottom of 1st, top of 2nd)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652
2. The Bambers were private people as stated in CC's book:
"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam. Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden. Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it? I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence. They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong. These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".
It's also interesting to note that NB seemed to prefer private services over public services. Obviously he was in a financial position to choose. Nevertheless:
SC and JB were privately educated
SC and June received private psychiatric treatment
NB desisted RWB's idea of involving the local police in the security of OCP likening them to Dad's Army
Again there's some evidence that what JB said about NB not wanting to involve "organisations" might be true.
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The judge called Neville's phone call to Jeremy 'mysterious'.
The dictionary definition - ' Difficult or impossible to understand or explain'.
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Jeremy said the line went dead which avoided him having to make up a story about what he heard in the form of background noises. It also allowed him to phone Julie immediately.
The truth however is somewhat different. Jeremy made the call to his cottage in Goldhanger and left the telephone handset to dangle.
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Jeremy said the line went dead which avoided him having to make up a story about what he heard in the form of background noises. It also allowed him to phone Julie immediately.
The truth however is somewhat different. Jeremy made the call to his cottage in Goldhanger and left the telephone handset to dangle.
If SC and NB were in the kitchen with NB phoning JB and SC running off upstairs, and NB leaving the handset on the kitchen worktop (the soc photos doesn't show any dangling), I am not sure JB would hear too much? As far as I can see/hear, using my landline and mobile, any noise from upstairs would not be heard in the kitchen by listening through the ear piece via the open phone?
What would be the purpose of JB calling Goldhanger?
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If SC and NB were in the kitchen with NB phoning JB and SC running off upstairs, and NB leaving the handset on the kitchen worktop (the soc photos doesn't show any dangling), I am not sure JB would hear too much? As far as I can see/hear, using my landline and mobile, any noise from upstairs would not be heard in the kitchen by listening through the ear piece via the open phone?
What would be the purpose of JB calling Goldhanger?
He would have heard shouting, dog barking etc...
JB called Goldhanger to register a call.
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He would have heard shouting, dog barking etc...
JB called Goldhanger to register a call.
I don't believe JB would have heard anything through the earpiece in the kitchen if the commotion was going on upstairs. The indoor dog, Crispy, I believe was June's and slept in the main bedroom? Certainly it was found in the main bedroom by EP. However as with most things with this case conflicting reports exist as to exactly where it was found: under the bed and in a wardrobe! When the BT operator listened in she heard a dog barking but we do not know where it was at that time and this was an hour or two after NB's supposed call. Was it in the kitchen given that it must have been aware that a number of strangers were outside? It would not necessarily bark when the occupants were under attack as they were all people it was familiar with and it would not have fully appreciated what was going on. It may have been in the kitchen prior to the raid team breaking in as it was aware of strangers outside and then as the sledgehammer was applied to the door it may have fled under the bed or in the wardrobe.
Calls did not register back in 1985 hence the debates about the phone calls? In any event when a call is made if it is not picked up within a certain time period I believe there's an automatic interruption of the call. Are you saying JB made a call from WHF to Goldhanger, cycled home in his wetsuit and was greeted by the sound of his phone ringing he then lifted the receiver to provide an alibi? He lived in a tiny semi-detached cottage and I think in the dead of night his neighbours might have heard the phone ringing for what would amount to a considerable length of time in terms of a telephone ringing and going unanswered. There's a difference in a phone ringing for a minute or two and some 20 odd minutes. Tests could be carried out to test this theory and at WHF too. I don't know why more wasn't made of noise/sound and decibels to measure such.
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I had a eureka moment and wondered whether this simple and obvious point had cropped up before. One of JB's get out of jail free cards is Nevill's call to PC West, as noted indirectly by Bonnet. There are two problems with it:
1. coincidence
What are the odds they would both end up speaking to the same guy? This implies that Nevill, like Bamber, chose not to call 999 but rather look up and dial the number for Chelmsford.
2. PC West's behaviour
During Bamber's call PC West gave no indication that he was already aware of the situation or that action had been taken. Therefore, he wasn't and it hadn't.
3. Timing (no one expects the Spanish Inquisition)
If Nevill called the cops he did so within minutes of calling JB. That would mean shortly after 3.00 a.m. Why would West do nothing to set the wheels in motion for nearly half an hour?
There's nothing new under the sun so I guess this ground is well trodden. Still, I am a great believer in the scope for digging up new points in these cases so I would be interested in the thoughts of the experts on the above.
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The points you raise are very valid.
There only ever was one call to the police and that call was made by Jeremy Bamber.
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The points you raise are very valid.
There only ever was one call to the police and that call was made by Jeremy Bamber.
I see I used a censored word in the OP. Maybe I mis-spelled it or something as it seemed entirely innofensive when I typed it. I won't repeat it but it was a four letter abbreviated plural meaning 'old hands' or 'cognoscenti'. It's a homophone of 'prose'
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I see I used a censored word in the OP. Maybe I mis-spelled it or something as it seemed entirely innofensive when I typed it. I won't repeat it but it was a four letter abbreviated plural meaning 'old hands' or 'cognoscenti'. It's a homophone of 'prose'
The word you used was pro's but without the apostrophe, I have inserted the word believers as an alternative, feel free to edit it if you want.
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The word you used was pro's but without the apostrophe, I have inserted the word believers as an alternative, feel free to edit it if you want.
Thanks. I replaced the forbidden word with 'experts'.
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Thanks. I replaced the forbidden word with 'experts'.
An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy. (Steven Weinberg)
Personally I would use the word 'fool' for anyone who believes that Jeremy Bamber is innocent.
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An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy. (Steven Weinberg)
Personally I would use the word 'fool' for anyone who believes that Jeremy Bamber is innocent.
So would I, if their reasons were foolish.
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I had a eureka moment and wondered whether this simple and obvious point had cropped up before. One of JB's get out of jail free cards is Nevill's call to PC West, as noted indirectly by Bonnet. There are two problems with it:
1. coincidence
What are the odds they would both end up speaking to the same guy? This implies that Nevill, like Bamber, chose not to call 999 but rather look up and dial the number for Chelmsford.
2. PC West's behaviour
During Bamber's call PC West gave no indication that he was already aware of the situation or that action had been taken. Therefore, he wasn't and it hadn't.
3. Timing (no one expects the Spanish Inquisition)
If Nevill called the cops he did so within minutes of calling JB. That would mean shortly after 3.00 a.m. Why would West do nothing to set the wheels in motion for nearly half an hour?
There's nothing new under the sun so I guess this ground is well trodden. Still, I am a great believer in the scope for digging up new points in these cases so I would be interested in the thoughts of the experts on the above.
Just another thought. How likely is it that Neville would take the trouble to thumb his way through a telephone directory to look for a local number with the threat hanging over him of Sheila shoving a gun in his face. We have Jeremy's word for it that during the alleged call to him his father sounded "panicked."
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To be serious for a moment, I might not have studied the facts in the Bamber case as much as some but as far as the telephone call to police is concerned I see no possible way in which this could be construed as two calls from two different people.
Had Nevill phoned the police the officer receiving the call would have said so.
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An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy. (Steven Weinberg)
Personally I would use the word 'fool' for anyone who believes that Jeremy Bamber is innocent.
8)><(
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Its not an aspect of the case I've looked into in any depth. My gut instinct tells me there was no call from NB to EP but I'm happy to spend a bit of time looking into it.
Its perhaps a good idea to consider the documents that the CT seem to place a lot of emphasis on which they claim supports the call:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
As far as I can see police officer number 1990 relates to PC West? MB relates to civilian worker Malcolm Bonnet?
Document detailing JB's call to EP
http://twitpic.com/bz3ibk
Document that relates to the CLAIMED call from NB to EP or more likely explanation PC West simply relaying the call to MB
http://twitpic.com/6qkaq9
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8)><(
Present company excepted Hols 8((()*/
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Its not an aspect of the case I've looked into in any depth. My gut instinct tells me there was no call from NB to EP but I'm happy to spend a bit of time looking into it.
Its perhaps a good idea to consider the documents that the CT seem to place a lot of emphasis on which they claim supports the call:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
As far as I can see police officer number 1990 relates to PC West? MB relates to civilian worker Malcolm Bonnet?
Document detailing JB's call to EP
http://twitpic.com/bz3ibk
Document that relates to the CLAIMED call from NB to EP or more likely explanation PC West simply relaying the call to MB
http://twitpic.com/6qkaq9
If you believe this Hols then you cannot believe that Jeremy Bamber is innocent.
In fact, you can arrive at a value judgement in this case by considering whether he lied about the alleged phone call from Nev.
The bottom line is that an innocent person would have no reason to lie about it so one doesn't have to be a genius to work it out...
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Just another thought. How likely is it that Neville would take the trouble to thumb his way through a telephone directory to look for a local number with the threat hanging over him of Sheila shoving a gun in his face. We have Jeremy's word for it that during the alleged call to him his father sounded "panicked."
I entirely agree. His reported words were something like 'Shiela's gone crazy. She has the gun'.' What could that mean other than that there was a serious emergency? Nevill had to hand alternative ways of dealing with the situation including arming himself, running outside and/or calling 999. What did he expect Bamber to do? It must also be borne in mind that he was calling in the middle of the night when Bamber was likely asleep in bed and would take a while to get to the phone. Therefore, Nevill had plenty of time. I can't imagine a state of affairs in which he would have that time but would use those words. 'Gone crazy' suggests something had already happened. But what?
Still, I am focusing on the supposed call to the police in this thread and offering a couple of reasons why it is not likely he made one.
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If you believe this Hols then you cannot believe that Jeremy Bamber is innocent.
In fact, you can arrive at a value judgement in this case by considering whether he lied about the alleged phone call from Nev.
The bottom line is that an innocent person would have no reason to lie about it so one doesn't have to be a genius to work it out...
The bottom line Angelo is that I believe JB is the victim of a MoJ but for me to arrive at this decision it isn't necessary for me to believe that NB called EP and other spurious claims eg EP were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse; one male one female in the kitchen. It is clear to most that these claims are based on ambiguities in paperwork and do not support JB's claim of MoJ. At best it shows the paperwork and communication was sloppy.
Is JB lying or clutching at straws? I make allowances for the fact that he does not have full access to the outside world. He is entitled to full access to his case files and has a limited amount in his cell. The remainder are held elsewhere in the prison and he has to request them. I can bring up all the docs at the click of a button and have access to the internet 24/7 so its easy for me to cross reference docs and write certain things off.
I'm not a member of the CT or part of JB's inner circle. If I was I would advise him to forget the above as its
harmful to his campaign and there are far stronger aspects of the case to be pursued.
Perhaps the acid test should be is this capable of a referral to the CoA?
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Myster I NEED you desperately... 8**8:/:
I would like to bring up... the table in the following but don't know how to &%+((£ Please help....
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police.
Is there a digit missing in JB's tel no? In the 80's Goldhanger and Tolleshunt D'Arcy had four digit tel numbers to exchange calls locally? What's the def of local? Within the county the number would be prefixed by a further two digits and then further digits for elsewhere within the UK? So it seems to me JB's tel number is incorrect in the table ie a digit is missing?
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The bottom line Angelo is that I believe JB is the victim of a MoJ but for me to arrive at this decision it isn't necessary for me to believe that NB called EP and other spurious claims eg EP were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse; one male one female in the kitchen. It is clear to most that these claims are based on ambiguities in paperwork and do not support JB's claim of MoJ. At best it shows the paperwork and communication was sloppy.
Is JB lying or clutching at straws? I make allowances for the fact that he does not have full access to the outside world. He is entitled to full access to his case files and has a limited amount in his cell. The remainder are held elsewhere in the prison and he has to request them. I can bring up all the docs at the click of a button and have access to the internet 24/7 so its easy for me to cross reference docs and write certain things off.
I'm not a member of the CT or part of JB's inner circle. If I was I would advise him to forget the above as its
harmful to his campaign and there are far stronger aspects of the case to be pursued.
Perhaps the acid test should be is this capable of a referral to the CoA?
You at least can see through the wood which is to your credit.
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Myster I NEED you desperately... 8**8:/:
I would like to bring up... the table in the following but don't know how to &%+((£ Please help....
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police.
Is there a digit missing in JB's tel no? In the 80's Goldhanger and Tolleshunt D'Arcy had four digit tel numbers to exchange calls locally? What's the def of local? Within the county the number would be prefixed by a further two digits and then further digits for elsewhere within the UK? So it seems to me JB's tel number is incorrect in the table ie a digit is missing?
The telephone numbers are what were recorded at police HQ when Jeremy Bamber phoned them.
"Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber"
Nevill Bamber 860209 Jeremy Bamber 88645
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This thread has been merged.
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You at least can see through the wood which is to your credit.
8((()*/
I would like to bring up the table in the following as a stand alone. Its about 1/3 way down.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
I think JB's tel no might be incorrect. Its probably not really important but it might show that EP are yet again recording info incorrectly AND JB/CT are blindly following:
NB's tel no/WHF = stated as 860209
JB's tel no/Goldhanger = stated as 88645
I think residents within the Maldon exchange incl Tolleshunt D'Arcy and Goldhanger would only need a four digit number to exchange calls? Residents outside the Maldon exchange but within Essex would need a further two digits to connect to Tolleshunt D'Arcy and Goldhanger? This would include Chelmsford (police station) to Tolleshunt D'Arcy and Goldhanger? Residents outside Essex would need to dial further digits?
http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/search/uk_codes/index.bycounty.publisha?County=Essex#
http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/search/uk_codes/search.publisha?Search=Maldon#
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See in AE's WS (at top) she gives her tel no as Maldon and provides a six digit number:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.msg30060#msg30060
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Myster I NEED you desperately... 8**8:/:
I would like to bring up... the table in the following but don't know how to &%+((£ Please help....
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police.
Is there a digit missing in JB's tel no? In the 80's Goldhanger and Tolleshunt D'Arcy had four digit tel numbers to exchange calls locally? What's the def of local? Within the county the number would be prefixed by a further two digits and then further digits for elsewhere within the UK? So it seems to me JB's tel number is incorrect in the table ie a digit is missing?
Ann Eaton gives both telephone nos. in her first* witness statement (49 pages - mid-September). WHF is TD + 3 digits while Goldhanger is Maldon + 5 digits.
* in her 'second' statement she says she gave a statement to Stan Jones on 12 Aug IIRC. We don't seem to have that here unfortunately.
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Ann Eaton gives both telephone nos. in her first* witness statement (49 pages - mid-September). WHF is TD + 3 digits while Goldhanger is Maldon + 5 digits.
* in her 'second' statement she says she gave a statement to Stan Jones on 12 Aug IIRC. We don't seem to have that here unfortunately.
I'm sorry I don't understand the above?
AE has given her own tel number as Maldon 817108. My understanding is that at that time (mid 80's) if anyone was calling AE from within the Maldon exchange they could knock off the first two digits ie 81 and just dial 7108 and get through. Anyone calling from within Essex but outside the Maldon exchange would need to dial 817108. Anyone calling outside Essex would need to dial further digits in addition to 817108.
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The number is correct as per BT phone directory:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1025/RDUK1850_901748-00094/275634149?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
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Just checked NB's number and that is correct too as per BT phone directory:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1025/RDUK1850_901748-00095/275634509?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Both numbers are Maldon but clearly some numbers are 6 digits (NB's) and others (JB's) 5 digits.
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Just checked NB's number and that is correct too as per BT phone directory:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1025/RDUK1850_901748-00095/275634509?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Both numbers are Maldon but clearly some numbers are 6 digits (NB's) and others (JB's) 5 digits.
So they are correctly recorded after all that? ...and the point of this little sojourn??
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I'm sorry I don't understand the above?
AE has given her own tel number as Maldon 817108. My understanding is that at that time (mid 80's) if anyone was calling AE from within the Maldon exchange they could knock off the first two digits ie 81 and just dial 7108 and get through. Anyone calling from within Essex but outside the Maldon exchange would need to dial 817108. Anyone calling outside Essex would need to dial further digits in addition to 817108.
See p.19 of her WS here, at the bottom http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.0
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So they are correctly recorded after all that? ...and the point of this little sojourn??
Yes they are correctly recorded based on the BT entries in the phone book.
I obviously have too much time on my hands 8(8-))
Just trying to make sure the basics are correct and look at the CT's claims.
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See p.19 of her WS here, at the bottom http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.0
I see, thanks.
Here are the entries in the BT phone directory. Both state Maldon, Essex. The phone directory comes under Southend-on-Sea. In any event we can all see both numbers are correct as per the phone directory.
One of the reasons I was interested to confirm the digits is that I have often thought NB called JB on the basis it was quicker than dialling EP either emergency 999 or a non-emergency number but there's another thread for that call.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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A bit curious Hols, how did you come by the old phone books?
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AE refers to NB's number as Tolleshunt D'Arcy 209 and JB's number as Maldon 88645. Whereas the BT phone directory has them down as Maldon 860209 and Maldon 88645 respectively.
See BT phone entries in post above and AE's WS below:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2177
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A bit curious Hols, how did you come by the old phone books?
I Googled old BT phone books and was directed to the Ancestry site where I had to part with £9.99p 8)><(
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AE refers to NB's number as Tolleshunt D'Arcy 209 and JB's number as Maldon 88645. Whereas the BT phone directory has them down as Maldon 860209 and Maldon 88645 respectively.
See BT phone entries in post above and AE's WS below:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2177
I defer to you. It still means Nevill dialled 5 numbers on a rotary phone and then waited for JB to wake up, come downstairs and answer. Have you an idea of a reasonably plausible state of affairs that would explain the call itself and what he supposedly said?
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I defer to you. It still means Nevill dialled 5 numberson a rotary phone and then waited for JB to wake up, come downstairs and answer. Have you an idea of a reasonably plausible state of affairs that would explain the call itself and what he supposedly said?
But does it? It's still not clear to me what number NB would have needed to dial for JB and vice-versa. I recall in the mid 80's dialling friends within the village using 4 digits and friends in the neighbouring town using 6 digits. I think it depends on the definition of local/exchange?
I believe NB and June had a phobia, for want of a better word, about anyone finding out about SC's mental illness and went to great lengths to hide/deny it. Don't forget SC was the adopted daughter and so to acknowledge SC's mental illness was possibly having to also acknowledge SC's unknown origins/hereditary background/genetics/bad blood/their infertility and b) whether they themselves had in some part caused SC's mental illness by her upbringing/June's mental illness.
Yes NB would have to wait for JB to wake and move himself downstairs to answer. All initial WS's state JB claimed NB said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun". Nothing about please come over. If NB phoned EP emergency number or non-emergency he would need to confirm his name, address, tel number and a brief outline of the situation so it would not be quick. If he phoned EP and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" then what? JB was aware of all the details: full name, address, tel number, weapons at WHF and more importantly SC's mental history. Bottom line is no jury would convict someone on the basis that a phone call wasn't made when it can't be proved either way.
Also perhaps NB had experienced a long history of newcomers to WHF getting lost? Its tucked away and not easy to find.
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But does it? It's still not clear to me what number NB would have needed to dial for JB and vice-versa. I recall in the mid 80's dialling friends within the village using 4 digits and friends in the neighbouring town using 6 digits. I think it depends on the definition of local/exchange?
I believe NB and June had a phobia, for want of a better word, about anyone finding out about SC's mental illness and went to great lengths to hide/deny it. Don't forget SC was the adopted daughter and so to acknowledge SC's mental illness was possibly having to also acknowledge SC's unknown origins/hereditary background/genetics/bad blood/their infertility and b) whether they themselves had in some part caused SC's mental illness by her upbringing/June's mental illness.
Yes NB would have to wait for JB to wake and move himself downstairs to answer. All initial WS's state JB claimed NB said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun". Nothing about please come over. If NB phoned EP emergency number or non-emergency he would need to confirm his name, address, tel number and a brief outline of the situation so it would not be quick. If he phoned EP and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" then what? JB was aware of all the details: full name, address, tel number, weapons at WHF and more importantly SC's mental history. Bottom line is no jury would convict someone on the basis that a phone call wasn't made when it can't be proved either way.
Also perhaps NB had experienced a long history of newcomers to WHF getting lost? Its tucked away and not easy to find.
I thought of a possibly plausible scenario. Say she is sitting on June's bed, cradling the rifle and muttering about having voices from God that she maybe kill her kds before they kill her, or something. and Nevill, humouring her, asks whether he might consult Jeremy about this important family matter and she says, 'sure, why not?' He calls JB with the intention you set out and then hangs up when she appears at the kitchen door. Something like that is possble I guess.
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I thought of a possibly plausible scenario. Say she is sitting on June's bed, cradling the rifle and muttering about having voices from God that she maybe kill her kds before they kill her, or something. and Nevill, humouring her, asks whether he might consult Jeremy about this important family matter and she says, 'sure, why not?' He calls JB with the intention you set out and then hangs up when she appears at the kitchen door. Something like that is possble I guess.
I'm sure there are various plausible scenarios.
It is well documented that a) NB had a low regard for the local police and b) the Bambers kept SC's mental illness private and had a deep-seated aversion to others knowing about it. Imo sound reasons for NB not calling EP. Please can we get back to the thread ?{)(**
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I'm sure there are various plausible scenarios.
It is well documented that a) NB had a low regard for the local police and b) the Bambers kept SC's mental illness private and had a deep-seated aversion to others knowing about it. Imo sound reasons for NB not calling EP. Please can we get back to the thread ?{)(**
To discuss what? We all seem agreed that Nevill did not call the cops.
Actually, I'm not sure there are that many plausible possibilities.
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The logs posted above were made by PC West and Malcolm Bonnett. As far as I am concerned they both refer to JB's call and one is simply relaying the same message to the other albeit they use their own words.
In the CT's book they claim JB did not make ref as to what firearms were kept at WHF in his initial call to PC West. That's not what PC West (1990) says in his trial testimony. He states he asked JB what weapons were kept at WHF and JB detailed the weapons. It seems obvious that if JB phoned EP and said words to the effect my dad called and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" EP are going to ask about the firearms. As far as I'm aware the police are trained to elicit as much info as possible to deal appropriately with the situation. They would also surely ask NB's tel number to get the line checked out since JB told them it went dead!? Again the CT claim JB did not provide NB's number!? This whole phone call from NB to EP is a complete waste of time IMO.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=170.msg1779#msg1779
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Plus it cost me £9.99 for 12 credits to ancestry.com to access old phone books which I could have bought a semi-decent bottle of wine with 8)><(
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Plus it cost me £9.99 for 12 credits to ancestry.com to access old phone books which I could have bought a semi-decent bottle of wine with 8)><(
Why don't you get up at three o'clock this morning and see how long it takes you to look up the nos. for Witham and Chelmsford? In fact, why not call them and tell them to get off the line because a trains coming? Then you can report back on how long that took.
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Why don't you get up at three o'clock this morning and see how long it takes you to look up the nos. for Witham and Chelmsford? In fact, why not call them and tell them to get off the line because a trains coming? Then you can report back on how long that took.
Hmmm a bit difficult for me to get up at 3am this morning when you're asking me at 8.09am! Anyhow why don't you since it's your idea. Or perhaps you need your beauty sleep. What is your experiment going to prove or disprove?
I reckon it would take me max 2 minutes to look up any one number in an English language phone directory regardless of time of day/night. Probably nearer 1 minute but 2 max. No idea of the point you're endeavouring to make?
Did JB phone Witham? I thought he said he was aware it was unmanned at night hence he called Chelmsford?
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Hmmm a bit difficult for me to get up at 3am this morning when you're asking me at 8.09am! Anyhow why don't you since it's your idea. Or perhaps you need your beauty sleep. What is your experiment going to prove or disprove?
I reckon it would take me max 2 minutes to look up any one number in an English language phone directory regardless of time of day/night. Probably nearer 1 minute but 2 max. No idea of the point you're endeavouring to make?
Did JB phone Witham? I thought he said he was aware it was unmanned at night hence he called Chelmsford?
You were complaining you wasted £9.99 and I was just trying to be helpful by giving you something to do. Bamber said it took him '10 minutes at the outside'. The point I am making is this: if guilty, he needed to account for the delay between Nevill's call to him and his call to the cops (the real reason being that he had spent the interval cycling home) and therefore, wasting time looking up phone numbers rather than simply calling 999 was how he did it. Your estimate of 1 to 2 minutes seems about right. He said 10. So, he's guilty, no?
I don't know where I read it but I read somewhere that he called Witham first, his local nick, and Chelmsford later. Have to work out where I got that from. Maybe Lee, maybe his own WS.
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You were complaining you wasted £9.99 and I was just trying to be helpful by giving you something to do. Bamber said it took him '10 minutes at the outside'. The point I am making is this: if guilty, he needed to account for the delay between Nevill's call to him and his call to the cops (the real reason being that he had spent the interval cycling home) and therefore, wasting time looking up phone numbers rather than simply calling 999 was how he did it. Your estimate of 1 to 2 minutes seems about right. He said 10. So, he's guilty, no?
I don't know where I read it but I read somewhere that he called Witham first, his local nick, and Chelmsford later. Have to work out where I got that from. Maybe Lee, maybe his own WS.
In the absence of satellite/digital technology the whole phone call aspect of the case is a complete waste of time: she said x time, he said y time, they said z time, she kept her clock 10 mins fast so she could have an extra 10 mins kip, he misread the clock...How can anything be determined from this?
Most guys tend to overestimate 8(0(* Does the 10 mins incl looking for the actual directory?
JB makes no ref in his WS's or police interviews about calling Witham. It seems to have originated from PC West.
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In the absence of satellite/digital technology the whole phone call aspect of the case is a complete waste of time: she said x time, he said y time, they said z time, she kept her clock 10 mins fast so she could have an extra 10 mins kip, he misread the clock...How can anything be determined from this?
Most guys tend to overestimate 8(0(* Does the 10 mins incl looking for the actual directory?
JB makes no ref in his WS's or police interviews about calling Witham. It seems to have originated from PC West.
The phone calls make no sense at all no matter how you look at them. Not the timings and not the fact they were made at all.
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The phone calls make no sense at all no matter how you look at them. Not the timings and not the fact they were made at all.
They're subjective. Unfortunately we don't know what weight, if any, the jury gave to the various aspects of the prosecutions case. It seems to me from the judges summing up the jury placed a lot of emphasis on the silencer evidence. According to CAL's book a member of EP asked the jury foreman how they reached the verdict and he said they were basically directed by the judge to find JB guilty and had this not been the case they would have reached a not guilty verdict.
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They're subjective. Unfortunately we don't know what weight, if any, the jury gave to the various aspects of the prosecutions case. It seems to me from the judges summing up the jury placed a lot of emphasis on the silencer evidence. According to CAL's book a member of EP asked the jury foreman how they reached the verdict and he said they were basically directed by the judge to find JB guilty and had this not been the case they would have reached a not guilty verdict.
I would not place much faith in that rumour. That might have been one of the minority speaking.
It seems as though they were closely interested in the blood evidence in the silencer to judge by the questions they raised with the judge. If the silencer stands up, that's it by itself isn't it? She can't have shot herself and then put the silencer downstairs, obviously.
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Does anyone recall the source for something I thought I saw. Im worried that I may have made it up. Did Bamber circle the number of the police in the telephone directory in the course of looking it up?
While here, I have tracked down a reference to something important. Per Ann Eaton's 8th Sep 85 witness statement, she says he told police on the morning of 7th Aug that he called Witham police first, got no answer and then called Chelmsford. Suspicious, no?
Another thing on the phone calls that occurs to me so I'll jot it down - two things actually - concerning the idea that Malcolm Bonnet's note records a call from Nevill:
(i) by what means would Nevill place a call that, by extraordinary coincidence, went right through to Bonnet? Bonnet was not at Chelmsford or Witham and AFAIK he was not handling 999 calls either (which would still entail a very high degree of coincidence), and
(ii) as Jeremy himself says Nevill called him at 3.00 a.m. what on earth was going on at WHF between that time and 3.36 which is the time recorded by Bonnet on the supposedly suspicious note?
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I can't remember seeing anything about him circling phone numbers - maybe he had written down various ones before going to bed or even earlier, ready prepared.
Straight from the horse's mouth 26 years later...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
What would Essex Police have done without Miss Marple?
What was going on at the farm after 3.00am? - nothing, because they were all dead, other than Crispy who couldn't believe his family no longer existed. If only dogs could talk!
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Does anyone recall the source for something I thought I saw. Im worried that I may have made it up. Did Bamber circle the number of the police in the telephone directory in the course of looking it up?
While here, I have tracked down a reference to something important. Per Ann Eaton's 8th Sep 85 witness statement, she says he told police on the morning of 7th Aug that he called Witham police first, got no answer and then called Chelmsford. Suspicious, no?
Another thing on the phone calls that occurs to me so I'll jot it down - two things actually - concerning the idea that Malcolm Bonnet's note records a call from Nevill:
(i) by what means would Nevill place a call that, by extraordinary coincidence, went right through to Bonnet? Bonnet was not at Chelmsford or Witham and AFAIK he was not handling 999 calls either (which would still entail a very high degree of coincidence), and
(ii) as Jeremy himself says Nevill called him at 3.00 a.m. what on earth was going on at WHF between that time and 3.36 which is the time recorded by Bonnet on the supposedly suspicious note?
I think I vaguely recall something about JB marking the number in the book but no idea of the source. I don't think its in any of the WS's.
Here's AE's WS and PC West's trial transcript re Witham:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2191
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=317
Did JB actually phone Witham or did he just say he didn't phone them because he knew it was unmanned at night. He would surely know Witham covered WHF and maybe that's why he mentioned Witham ie that he didn't call them as he knew it was unmanned hence he called Chelmsford.
In the absence of digital/satellite technology I don't see what can be proved or disproved by poring over the phone calls?
To my mind WHF and the Bamber family were not the norm which in some ways might explain the phone calls:
- Isolated property (not outer Hebrides but far more isolated than most dwellings)
- Family created by adoption
- Two occupants with serious histories of mental illness
- One of the above recently discharged from a psychiatric unit (Spring '85)
- Family liked to keep the severity of the mental illnesses private even from extended family
- One occupant a magistrate
- Firearms and ammunition at property and readily accessible ie not locked away
The above is an extremely unusual combination and for me goes some way to explain NB's call to JB but I can see how many don't share my views re the phone calls.
Good point about MB.
I thought JB said circa 3.15am? Please don't drag me into the times of the phone calls 8)><( it bores the pants off me 8)><( as nothing can be advanced here.
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I can't remember seeing anything about him circling phone numbers - maybe he had written down various ones before going to bed or even earlier, ready prepared.
Straight from the horse's mouth 26 years later...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
What would Essex Police have done without Miss Marple?
What was going on at the farm after 3.00am? - nothing, because they were all dead, other than Crispy who couldn't believe his family no longer existed. If only dogs could talk!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
I don't think JB's knowledge of his case is that good. How could it be when he has limited resources and is reliant on others?
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The phone calls are absolutely key IMO. If I find he circled the number in the book, I've got him!
Here's another question: why aren't the exact times of all these calls known? Surely the provider must have had records it used for billing?
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The phone calls are absolutely key IMO. If I find he circled the number in the book, I've got him!
Here's another question: why aren't the exact times of all these calls known? Surely the provider must have had records it used for billing?
Think u cld b my tb al if u don't remember mid 80's billing! Unfortunately the technology didn't exist at the time. Calls were just lumped together based on distance: local, regional, international and whether they were made at peak times or off-peak.
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Think u cld b my tb al if u don't remember mid 80's billing! Unfortunately the technology didn't exist at the time. Calls were just lumped together based on distance: local, regional, international and whether they were made at peak times or off-peak.
You think I could be your table … ? The 2002 appeal judgment says there were no billing records as we have today (para. 68) but that does not mean the phone provider did not keep records which did not find their way into the bills. It is a very frustrating aspect because the case could be totally and easily solved with this stuff. If a call went through from WHF to Bourtree and it was picked up at Bamber's end then he's off the hook, just like the phone was. How maddening.
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It's Holly's innuendospeak for "toyboy, al".
I can't believe that the police made no enquiries about phone timings from the provider. The case would have been solved instantly, so exact records mustn't have existed at all.
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You think I could be your table … ? The 2002 appeal judgment says there were no billing records as we have today (para. 68) but that does not mean the phone provider did not keep records which did not find their way into the bills. It is a very frustrating aspect because the case could be totally and easily solved with this stuff. If a call went through from WHF to Bourtree and it was picked up at Bamber's end then he's off the hook, just like the phone was. How maddening.
No sorry not the right legs 8)-)))
I think it might have been possible to trace calls when the caller was on the line but not once the call was ended. Hence the IRA gave warnings via call boxes. You might recall cop progs like Z Cars where they would get frustrated when they hadn't managed to trace the call before the caller hung up.
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No sorry not the right legs 8)-)))
I think it might have been possible to trace calls when the caller was on the line but not once the call was ended. Hence the IRA gave warnings via call boxes. You might recall cop progs like Z Cars where they would get frustrated when they hadn't managed to trace the call before the caller hung up.
Tracing calls isn't quite the same thing. Look at this way. The phone company would charge different tariffs according to whether calls were local or at off peaks times etc. It follows they must have kept records of such things, whether they provided details in the customer's bill or not. If a customer challenged a bill there would have had to be a way of justifying it and that would of necessity have been rooted in the technology of some kind. That's not to say BT must have logged the specific times of calls, as opposed to just the plain number falling within the various charging categories. In fact, we can probably pretty sure from this case that they did not because if they did the case would have been solved very quickly (either Bamber answered a call from Nevill or he didn't).
My legs are the best part of me. I'm upset now.
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Tracing calls isn't quite the same thing. Look at this way. The phone company would charge different tariffs according to whether calls were local or at off peaks times etc. It follows they must have kept records of such things, whether they provided details in the customer's bill or not. If a customer challenged a bill there would have had to be a way of justifying it and that would of necessity have been rooted in the technology of some kind. That's not to say BT must have logged the specific times of calls, as opposed to just the plain number falling within the various charging categories. In fact, we can probably pretty sure from this case that they did not because if they did the case would have been solved very quickly (either Bamber answered a call from Nevill or he didn't).
My legs are the best part of me. I'm upset now.
The cost was based on local, regional and international calls determined by dialling codes. There was no tariff as such just peak or off-peak.
I like cyclists' legs as in racing cyclists with lycra shorts 8(>((
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The cost was based on local, regional and international calls determined by dialling codes. There was no tariff as such just peak or off-peak.
snip
I do follow. It still means BT must have had systems that recorded the number and type of call made so it could be charged correctly.
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I do follow. It still means BT must have had systems that recorded the number and type of call made so it could be charged correctly.
Not necessarily as it was the dialling code that determined one part of the cost and the time within two sets of parameters the other. So it would not be necessary to have the full number or exact time. It was very basic compared with the tariffs and billing of today.
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Not necessarily as it was the dialling code that determined one part of the cost and the time within two sets of parameters the other. So it would not be necessary to have the full number or exact time. It was very basic compared with the tariffs and billing of today.
I didn't say 'exact time' and the number I was referring to was not the telephone number but the number of calls made by the person to be charged. Apart from that, we're jake.
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Jake!!? See what happens when you spend too much time on an American forum... thank god for Google!
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Jake!!? See what happens when you spend too much time on an American forum... thank god for Google!
Ha, that almost gets a smiley.