Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: misty on November 12, 2014, 09:18:12 PM
Title: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 12, 2014, 09:18:12 PM
Why do you suppose the PJ never asked any of the Tapas checkers during their interviews about vehicles they may have observed in the front car park that night? The whole focus of the PJ seems to have been on people who were walking around in the vicinity before & after the crucial time, especially after. I am thinking specifically of the grey car, observed by Maria da Silva, outside Madeleine's window at 10pm. Kate looked right out of the window, yet never seems to have been asked what she recalled seeing outside - was that car still there by the time she looked minutes later? If you discount all the sightings of carriers on foot - could Madeleine have been taken out through the front door, passed straight over the wall & bundled into the boot of that grey car?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm *snip* . Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58?she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge; . They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located; . She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark; . After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment; She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn't yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill; . States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment; . Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions; . She only learnt of what had happened to little Madeleine the next day after having received a telephone call from her friend, who alerted her to what had happened;
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 12, 2014, 11:21:07 PM
Why do you suppose the PJ never asked any of the Tapas checkers during their interviews about vehicles they may have observed in the front car park that night? The whole focus of the PJ seems to have been on people who were walking around in the vicinity before & after the crucial time, especially after. I am thinking specifically of the grey car, observed by Maria da Silva, outside Madeleine's window at 10pm. Kate looked right out of the window, yet never seems to have been asked what she recalled seeing outside - was that car still there by the time she looked minutes later? If you discount all the sightings of carriers on foot - could Madeleine have been taken out through the front door, passed straight over the wall & bundled into the boot of that grey car?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M- DE-SILVA.htm . Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58?she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge; . They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located; . She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark; . After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment; She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn't yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill; . States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment; . Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions; . She only learnt of what had happened to little Madeleine the next day after having received a telephone call from her friend, who alerted her to what had happened;
After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment; She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn't yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill; . States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment; . Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions;
Tbh, I am gobsmacked that she would see a grey car in front of the apartment, with it all being so dimly lit .... and with the trees waving around in the stiff breeze. These trees are a little like weeping willows, altho not to such an extent. They have long flexible well leafed twigs that hang down quite a length (? 2 feet or so) and these long "twigs" move freely in any wind.
Additionally, if they were driving from block 6 car park, initially the wall would have been too high to see a car in front of Madeleines window.
As they moved forward and uphill, they went around the bend into Rua Dr Agostinho de Silva and the road carried on uphill a little, which gradually lowered the effect of the wall. But, by the time she could have seen over it, I think she must have been at least level with the bedroom window. I dont think that she could have seen over it until then. I think she would have to have looked back on herself to see it ... and I am doubtful that she could have seen the exit (front door) which in any case was in pitch blackness.
Most people dont look back into a dark place as they are moving along. They look forward towards light things or movement.
However, the wall in front of 4A is lower for its full length and she might have seen something there as she approached, rather than having to look back. Also the trees were not as dense around 4A for some reason, so it would not be so dimly lit.
The whole thing is so unlikely and not plausible, IMO. I think she remembered the wrong block. I think she totally mistook the two blocks TBH
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 12, 2014, 11:54:40 PM
After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment; She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn't yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill; . States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment; . Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions;
Tbh, I am gobsmacked that she would see a grey car in front of the apartment, with it all being so dimly lit .... and with the trees waving around in the stiff breeze. These trees are a little like weeping willows, altho not to such an extent. They have long flexible well leafed twigs that hang down quite a length (? 2 feet or so) and these long "twigs" move freely in any wind.
Additionally, if they were driving from block 6 car park, initially the wall would have been too high to see a car in front of Madeleines window.
As they moved forward and uphill, they went around the bend into Rua Dr Agostinho de Silva and the road carried on uphill a little, which gradually lowered the effect of the wall. But, by the time she could have seen over it, I think she must have been at least level with the bedroom window. I dont think that she could have seen over it until then. I think she would have to have looked back on herself to see it ... and I am doubtful that she could have seen the exit (front door) which in any case was in pitch blackness.
Most people dont look back into a dark place as they are moving along. They look forward towards light things or movement.
However, the wall in front of 4A is lower for its full length and she might have seen something there as she approached, rather than having to look back. Also the trees were not as dense around 4A for some reason, so it would not be so dimly lit.
The whole thing is so unlikely and not plausible, IMO. I think she remembered the wrong block. I think she totally mistook the two blocks TBH
Maria made her statement on 8th May & was apparently a frequent visitor to block 6. I disagree that she would not have had a good view of that part of the car park when passing- see attached photograph. IMO it looks like she would have had a really good view if looking in that direction.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2014, 11:01:46 AM
Maria made her statement on 8th May & was apparently a frequent visitor to block 6. I disagree that she would not have had a good view of that part of the car park when passing- see attached photograph. IMO it looks like she would have had a really good view if looking in that direction.
(http://i.imgur.com/MG2ekTc.jpg?1)
Misty,
By the time she got there she was well past the window. She would have to have been looking backwards, not even sideways, but backwards.
People dont do that unless there is some special reason.
At that stage she had no known reason for looking backwards.
And I repeat, People generally look forwards, the way they are moving especially in the dark ... unless there is something happening or there is unusual light.
She possibly would have been able to see 4A well in her periferel vision.
I think she got 5A and 4A mixed up.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 13, 2014, 01:34:03 PM
By the time she got there she was well past the window. She would have to have been looking backwards, not even sideways, but backwards.
People dont do that unless there is some special reason.
At that stage she had no known reason for looking backwards.
And I repeat, People generally look forwards, the way they are moving especially in the dark ... unless there is something happening or there is unusual light.
She possibly would have been able to see 4A well in her periferel vision.
I think she got 5A and 4A mixed up.
My original question was regarding the PJ's apparent failure to ask any of the Tapas children checkers what vehicles they saw in the front car-park that night. Maria da Silva allegedly saw the grey car parked near Madeleine's window minutes before Madeleine was discovered missing. Jane walked through that car-park - twice. The second time was within minutes of the discovery. She subsequently recalled seeing "Tannerman", but made no mention of any car parked near 5a. Was it even there at around 9.45pm? Was it there when Kate looked out the bedroom window at just after 10pm? We have no reason to disbelieve Maria at this stage - so why wasn't this crucial point pursued?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: John on November 13, 2014, 01:45:59 PM
My original question was regarding the PJ's apparent failure to ask any of the Tapas children checkers what vehicles they saw in the front car-park that night. Maria da Silva allegedly saw the grey car parked near Madeleine's window minutes before Madeleine was discovered missing. Jane walked through that car-park - twice. The second time was within minutes of the discovery. She subsequently recalled seeing "Tannerman", but made no mention of any car parked near 5a. Was it even there at around 9.45pm? Was it there when Kate looked out the bedroom window at just after 10pm? We have no reason to disbelieve Maria at this stage - so why wasn't this crucial point pursued?
Good point misty. I had always assumed no mention of a car meant there wasn't any.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2014, 02:27:00 PM
By the time she got there she was well past the window. She would have to have been looking backwards, not even sideways, but backwards.
People dont do that unless there is some special reason.
At that stage she had no known reason for looking backwards.
And I repeat, People generally look forwards, the way they are moving especially in the dark ... unless there is something happening or there is unusual light.
She possibly would have been able to see 4A well in her periferel vision.
I think she got 5A and 4A mixed up.
(Snip)
I remember a few years ago, someone made exactly the same remark, Sadie, and even used Google Earth to show why that was odd.
You're good at Google Earth - do you think you could use it to illustrate your point?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2014, 02:35:00 PM
I remember a few years ago, someone made exactly the same remark, Sadie, and even used Google Earth to show why that was odd.
You're good at Google Earth - do you think you could use it to illustrate your point?
Yep, I am quite good on Google Earth, but I dont know how to post images without nasty people being able to go back into my computer .... and I aint risking that !
I have spent hours, with good advice from several people including John, trying to crack it, bit cant for some reason.
I have so much to show that it could turn your hair curly if I managed it. Some peoples hair from the other side might drop out altogether if I succeeded ..... it is so pertinent.
mind you, some of it is ex-judicy possibly. I mean pre sub Judice ... [Slarti corrected me. Thank you Slarti ]
Pathetic, but there you go !
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 13, 2014, 02:44:54 PM
It aint in front of Madeleines window, on the car park there, so why have you posted it?
Have I missed something?
And, Where and what is the first building? It aint anywhere near 5A, I can tell you that.
When did she say Madeleine's window? There is a window (living room) next to the car on the road which they could easily see when leaving block 6 car park. They could also see the lights above on in Fenn's apartment.
"Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles."
Madeleine's window is next to the tree in the car park.
Maybe the car belonged to a resident after all. See the grey car parked next to Mrs Fenn at 0.30
Thank you, Anna. That certainly looks like a small grey car, rather than the family-sized photoman vehicle. Presumably its owner has been identified & ruled out.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2014, 04:19:05 PM
When did she say Madeleine's window? There is a window (living room) next to the car on the road which they could easily see when leaving block 6 car park. They could also see the lights above on in Fenn's apartment.
"Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles."
Madeleine's window is next to the tree in the car park.
The one which has mysteriously vanished, now back mega sized thanks to John, when viewed from the angle you show, the front Exit (door?) cannot even be seen. It is tucked away in the recess to the left, totally out of sight.
How did she see that, if she was referring to the front door?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 13, 2014, 04:44:42 PM
The one which has mysteriously vanished, when viewed from the angle you show, the front Exit (door?) cannot even be seen. It is tucked away in the recess totally out of sight.
How did she see that, if she was referring to the front door?
Fingers crossed that the image stays. Here atm, gone in 10 seconds ?
I believe Maria was referring to the exit of the car-park, rather than the front door. If you watch the Pamela Fenn video, you can see that the end of the car is approx. level with the higher level of greenery against the wall running parallel to 5a. Compare that to the photo of the car park, then I think you will agree Maria would have been able to see most of the grey car if it was parked in the corner.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2014, 05:13:44 PM
By the time she got there she was well past the window. She would have to have been looking backwards, not even sideways, but backwards.
People dont do that unless there is some special reason.
At that stage she had no known reason for looking backwards.
And I repeat, People generally look forwards, the way they are moving especially in the dark ... unless there is something happening or there is unusual light.
She possibly would have been able to see 4A well in her periferel vision.
I think she got 5A and 4A mixed up.
Perhaps there was a subliminal reason which didn’t register at the time. There was possibly movement which she caught out of the corner of her eye which caused her to turn to take a better look. Maybe it was the trees swaying in the breeze or someone melting into the shadows?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 13, 2014, 05:48:04 PM
Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Well a car in a car park is mighty unusual and is indeed very very suspicious.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 13, 2014, 06:01:30 PM
Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Well a car in a car park is mighty unusual and is indeed very very suspicious.
How many residents in that block had cars, apart from Mrs Fenn? Many of the apartments were unoccupied that week. Surely one of the questions asked of the checkers should have been regarding any vehicles they saw parked there that night? Instead - no, only the timeline mattered. Nothing else.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2014, 06:47:57 PM
Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Well a car in a car park is mighty unusual and is indeed very very suspicious.
When I was there in mid 2010, [june or July] there wasn't a single car in that car park every time I looked, which was several times over three days. That covered after dark as well as daylight hours.
This year about 5 weeks ago there were 2 or 3 on the one visit I made.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: Anna on November 13, 2014, 07:00:23 PM
Perhaps there was a subliminal reason which didn’t register at the time. There was possibly movement which she caught out of the corner of her eye which caused her to turn to take a better look. Maybe it was the trees swaying in the breeze or someone melting into the shadows?
......Or the fact that they were travelling in an Opel Montera, which is as high as our Range Rover was and you would see over that wall from the high seat easy.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 13, 2014, 08:59:28 PM
Yes that night there was a small grey car parked level with the front door. There are photos of it. This confirms what the witnesses who drove past said is true. @Anna you found same car at a later date in a different position. Nothing suspicious about this car at all.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 13, 2014, 10:56:25 PM
Where was Mrs Fenn's car when Maria da Silva noticed that little grey car in the car park?
On north side of carpark as in video taken days later.
From road the witnesses see only cars on south side of carpark where the small grey one was (and still was next day, behind the ribbons with a GNR van, it is not relevant).
ETA photo 4th May
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: Brietta on November 16, 2014, 12:59:53 AM
On north side of carpark as in video taken days later.
From road the witnesses see only cars on south side of carpark where the small grey one was (and still was next day, behind the ribbons with a GNR van, it is not relevant).
ETA photo 4th May
I think the vehicle seen might have indeed been Mrs Fenn's, but that can only be speculation because there is no record of it being confirmed as hers. Is the vehicle in the clip the same make and model as hers? Otherwise it could belong to someone connected to the investigation eg. the forensics team.
Stephen Carpenter is the only other person apart from Maria da Silva, as far as I know, who has mentioned vehicles in the area at the relevant time.
Misty wonders in her opening post why the PJ didn't seem to be interested in asking all the witnesses direct questions about what vehicles they may have seen. It seems such an obvious question to ask it is very surprising it no-one bothered to ask it and it is surely a serious omission.
*snip* When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 16, 2014, 02:15:00 AM
I think the vehicle seen might have indeed been Mrs Fenn's, but that can only be speculation because there is no record of it being confirmed as hers. Is the vehicle in the clip the same make and model as hers? Otherwise it could belong to someone connected to the investigation eg. the forensics team.
Stephen Carpenter is the only other person apart from Maria da Silva, as far as I know, who has mentioned vehicles in the area at the relevant time.
Misty wonders in her opening post why the PJ didn't seem to be interested in asking all the witnesses direct questions about what vehicles they may have seen. It seems such an obvious question to ask it is very surprising it no-one bothered to ask it and it is surely a serious omission.
*snip* When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
The small grey car wasn't Mrs Fenn's - you can see the vehicle Mrs Fenn got out of in the video Anna kindly gave us the link to previously.
Maybe the car belonged to a resident after all. See the grey car parked next to Mrs Fenn at 0.30
People are creatures of habit when they park their cars outside their homes and, from the video showing the 2 vehicles parked alongside each other, it would seem that possibly Mrs Fenn's vehicle was not in the car park at 10pm when Maria passed by.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 16, 2014, 02:56:06 AM
There were 2 cars in the block 5 carpark that night, all IMO 1. a small grey car, I posted a photo of it the next morning, still in exactly the same position as the witnesses driving past at 10pm had seen it in. It did not move, it is irrelevant. 2. a larger white car (Mrs F's), parked almost certainly nearer the north wall of the carpark and so less visible to the witnesses driving by at 10pm, also this did not move, and is irrelevant. There is nothing suspicious about people parking their cars in their own car park.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 16, 2014, 09:57:45 AM
I think the vehicle seen might have indeed been Mrs Fenn's, but that can only be speculation because there is no record of it being confirmed as hers. Is the vehicle in the clip the same make and model as hers? Otherwise it could belong to someone connected to the investigation eg. the forensics team.
Stephen Carpenter is the only other person apart from Maria da Silva, as far as I know, who has mentioned vehicles in the area at the relevant time.
Misty wonders in her opening post why the PJ didn't seem to be interested in asking all the witnesses direct questions about what vehicles they may have seen. It seems such an obvious question to ask it is very surprising it no-one bothered to ask it and it is surely a serious omission.
*snip* When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
He is talking about cars parked on the road near to the pathway/side gate. He needs to provide an exact time because Matt, Russ, Jez etc. didn't see any cars parked there.
The small grey car wasn't Mrs Fenn's - you can see the vehicle Mrs Fenn got out of in the video Anna kindly gave us the link to previously.
People are creatures of habit when they park their cars outside their homes and, from the video showing the 2 vehicles parked alongside each other, it would seem that possibly Mrs Fenn's vehicle was not in the car park at 10pm when Maria passed by.
Do we know if the car that we saw Mrs Fenn with is her car, cos i wonderd about the man following her. Is he a taxi driver?
Without looking at it again, it seemed a big car to me. Not london black cab , but a typical taxi type car.
Do we know if Mrs Fenn owned that car? In fact do we know that she can drive?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: DCI on November 16, 2014, 01:40:08 PM
CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.
DC1485'And who else lives with her'
CT' She is completely alone.
DC1485'Alone.
CT' No one else.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder who that little grey car belonged to - present both on the night of 3rd May & weeks later when Mrs Fenn was spoken to by the press?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2014, 12:54:35 AM
... ... I wonder who that little grey car belonged to - present both on the night of 3rd May & weeks later when Mrs Fenn was spoken to by the press?
Easily solved misty but irrelevant. If a car was involved that night (I don't think any car was involved that night) you would be looking for one that drove away, and neither of these two cars did.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 18, 2014, 01:12:18 AM
Easily solved misty but irrelevant. If a car was involved that night (I don't think any car was involved that night) you would be looking for one that drove away, and neither of these two cars did.
I just don't understand why the PJ didn't ask any of the Tapas checkers what vehicles they noticed in the front car park that evening. It would have been really interesting to know if Mrs Fenn's car was parked there all evening, or whether, in fact, that was actually the night she had gone out & only returned at around say 2215 - hence her late appearance on the balcony at around 2300hrs (source:-Madeleine) some 45 minutes after the commotion started.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2014, 01:36:55 AM
I just don't understand why the PJ didn't ask any of the Tapas checkers what vehicles they noticed in the front car park that evening. It would have been really interesting to know if Mrs Fenn's car was parked there all evening, or whether, in fact, that was actually the night she had gone out & only returned at around say 2215 - hence her late appearance on the balcony at around 2300hrs (source:-Madeleine) some 45 minutes after the commotion started.
She was in continuously from 3.30pm onwards IMO. It was about 10.30pm (not 11.00pm) when she heard the noise and went out onto balcony. So her (large white) car was in the car park. The reason the witnesses driving past mentioned only the other (small grey) car is because it was parked next to the 5A window. The witnesses did not say it was the only car in the car park.
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: sadie on November 18, 2014, 01:41:58 AM
The long and short of this thread is that in all truth we dont actually know what cars, if any, were parked in front of the window that night.
I am not convinced that the grey car mentioned by witness "de Silva" was actually seen by her there. The wall surrounding O.C is very high all around that corner, Rua Francisco Gentil Martins to Rua Agostinho de Silva ... and she would have to have looked at an angle of at least 90^ through moving sweeping branches /twigs at an area that was in deep dimness. Unless she actually looked when she was past it at the drive in area. At which position she would have been looking backwards.
Most people do not look backwards at dark areas. It is unnatural. We almost always look forward after dark, at the area being illuminated by our headlights and only sometimes look sideways if something moving or brightly lit catches our eye.
I think she remembered it wrongly
OMO
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2014, 02:15:04 AM
As there was a small grey car in that spot next morning, I think the witness remembered accurately.
At what time?
The truth of the matter is that we dont know if there was a small grey car there, or not. Assume that if you like, but I think that if you are using it to build scenarios, then you should make it plain that there may, or may not, have been a car there
If the witness did see that car then she didn't see it until she was at least around the very high corner wall (about ? 6 - 7 feet tall) and had gone a little distance along along Rua Agostinho de Silva. Then she would have been at least level with it and looking directly to the side thru waving fonds of the trees into a verty dimly lit parking area. OR She had passed it and was looking back via the front drive in, again into a very dimly lit place.
IMO, but I think you will find that I am right.
Let's make it clear. I am not saying that there was, or wasn't, a car there.
I am saying that i dont think it at all likely that the witness saw it... there, but maybe outside the similar window in block 4?
cos it aint natural to look right to the side or backwards in a moving car especially if the place the passenger is looking at is dark And the gusts would have caused the low level fonds [flexible low level twigs] which reached the wall to have been swaying and even thrashing around. Not much, if any, of a grey car in the dim light would have been noticeable beyond them IMO
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2014, 09:26:36 PM
The small car is there in carpark next to 5A door and window in video which was filmed morning 4th at about 10.15am.
OK thanks. So it might have arrived after all the activity of Madeleines disappearance ... but may well have been there all night. I accept that.
I still dont think that the de Silva girl is likely to have seen it there. People do not make the effort to look back into darkness, or even look at 90^
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2014, 12:11:10 AM
OK thanks. So it might have arrived after all the activity of Madeleines disappearance ... but may well have been there all night. I accept that.
I still dont think that the de Silva girl is likely to have seen it there. People do not make the effort to look back into darkness, or even look at 90^
Sadie if you researched it further I think you would find that it was there evening 3rd and morning 4th and did not move, and the frontera witness did see it there. Would you like to see video of the car at about 10.15am 4th?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: misty on November 20, 2014, 12:30:50 AM
Sadie if you researched it further I think you would find that it was there evening 3rd and morning 4th and did not move, and the frontera witness did see it there. Would you like to see video of the car at about 10.15am 4th?
Whose car do you think it was, Pegasus?
Title: Re: Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2014, 12:49:42 AM