UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: misty on October 31, 2014, 06:08:20 PM
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Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
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Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
An interesting question.
I still think The PJ wanted The McCanns out of Portugal. So if they had left early then there would have been no hire car, no clothes. no imaginary dreams. Nothing much at all, in fact.
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I still think The PJ wanted The McCanns out of Portugal. So if they had left early then there would have been no hire car, no clothes. no imaginary dreams. Nothing much at all, in fact.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever !
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An interesting question.
I still think The PJ wanted The McCanns out of Portugal. So if they had left early then there would have been no hire car, no clothes. no imaginary dreams. Nothing much at all, in fact.
Strangely enough I agree with you, IMO they were keen to be free to get on with the investigation without distractions.
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Strangely enough I agree with you, IMO they were keen to be free to get on with the investigation without distractions.
Who? The PJ? That makes sense.
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That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever !
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You may disagree with the post, that’s your prerogative.
Why not just say … I disagree with what you say because … and give an alternative viewpoint?
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Strangely enough I agree with you, IMO they were keen to be free to get on with the investigation without distractions.
Indeed Slart. I believe that also. I found the nasty tongue lashing the PJ got was disgraceful. They were expected to run around the world and investigate every 'sighting' ,every story- whilst the new millionaires did the 'networking' with the good and the great...
You may disagree with the post, that’s your prerogative.
Why not just say … I disagree with what you say because … and give an alternative viewpoint?
Absolutely no need for such rudeness …
absolutely no excuse for such rudeness …
Bit like pot calling the kettle black! you disagree with me and accuse me of being a paedophile supporter. Which showed you up- you lost the plot dearie.
Take your own advice, if you don't like posters expressing their free will don't read their material. Simples!
Has anyone got a copy of Breetta chastizing Aflo and Davel? No? Oh dear!
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Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
A very thought-provoking question, Misty. 8((()*/
IMO,
- The media presence in PdL might have dropped off sooner, but Lori Campbell's splash about Murat (and the interest in Malinka at the time) would have kept the media there after the McCanns had gone. Both of them might have been hassled by the media even more than they already were without the McCanns to provide frequent photos for their media pieces.
- Unless the McCanns felt that they could be kept fully informed by the UK FLOs, they would probably still have found the means to return on occasion to request updates, so the media would have been rushing over each time as well.
- Watching police movements to cover those angles would probably still have led to the splash about long "boozy" lunches, which would still have disgruntled the police and stirred anti-UK sentiment.
- Amaral never got beyond the fact that there was no visible sign of forced entry. The family's initial assumption that the windows had been jemmied was considered as "proof" of a faked abduction. He still wouldn't have considered the possibility of a duplicate key or entry with a tool smaller than a full-sized credit card, nor even the possibility of entry/exit via the patio door.
- He would still have been convinced that there was a suspicious connection between Jane Tanner and Murat (Murat's relative had a house in Exeter and JT/Russ had just moved there, ergo they must have known each other, despite the fact that it is a city with a population of well over 100k; and because two people of the same haplotypes were found in a Burgau flat). He would still have been convinced that Jane invented the Tannerman sighting and falsely identified Murat (which she never did, but anyway).
- The Smith family would probably still have reported having seen a man carrying a child and may still have gone back over to make statements and show the PJ exactly where they saw him. However, there may well have been less of a media fuss highlighting the McCanns coming down the plane steps as they wouldn't have been arguidos, and so Martin Smith may never have had that sudden doubt.
- If the McCanns had gone home, would the UK police involvement would have been different? If it had been the same, Amaral may still have erupted. Would he have still been booted off the case? Possibly, although I'm not convinced that his rant against the UK police was the only reason. The extensive embarrassing leaks might have been a factor, and there would have been fewer half-truths to flutter out of PJ windows.
- Would the initial PJ team still have drip-fed half-baked theories and half-truths to the PT media? Quite probably, but not as many. The lurid stories about what was allegedly found as "evidence" of a dead body in the Scenic wouldn't have seen the light of day, although they may have invented others.
- If they hadn't been in the villa, there wouldn't have been bizarre suspicions about "restricted" CEOP booklets (which, if he'd checked, he might have noticed were not restricted at all and are freely available for download on the Internet), amongst other things.
- If the dogs had come over anyway, they would have still searched Murat's place, 5A and the McCanns' second apartment. The fact that Eddie barked in 5A would still have convinced him that she'd died there and that therefore the McCanns were involved. It is therefore likely that they would still have been made arguidos.
He wouldn't have been able to convince himself that she had been transported in the Scenic (as it wouldn't have been rented) and he might even have had to discard his fridge theory, although that's not certain. There would have been no strange dog inspection of clothes in the gym, nor of CuddleCat in the villa.
On the other hand, if it hadn't been such a high profile case, I wonder if the dogs would have come over at all. Possibly, if Harrison had still offered to help review the previous searches and offer a new perspective.
If the dogs hadn't come over, then there would have been no "evidence", flimsy as it was, to make the McCanns arguidos.
- As Murat would probably have been an arguido anyway, and Amaral didn't seem to have been actively investigating anyone else beyond the parents / T7, Murat would either have to have been charged within six months or the investigation shelved. As there was no evidence against him, it would have been shelved... providing he wasn't given the slippery stair treatment.
If Murat had somehow been coerced into a "confession" with a staged reconstruction, he might have ended up in jail for something he didn't do and the McCanns would never have been able to push for the case to be reviewed, let alone reopened.
- Again, with fewer half-truths for the initial PJ team to leak about the McCanns, e.g., what the dog alerts meant and the garbled understanding of forensics, Amaral may not have been booted off the case. He might have been left ruminating over seafood dinners about his latest successful investigation.
He might, in fact, have been made head of Faro...
Meanwhile, Madeleine would still be missing... with no hope of ever being found.
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I find that Misty asked an interesting question, totally on topic, which got drowned out.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5513.msg196899#msg196899
Misty's question was:
Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
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I find that Misty asked an interesting question, totally on topic, which got drowned out.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5513.msg196899#msg196899
Misty's question was:
Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
It is an interesting question.
I'm not sure that the progress of the investigation would have been much different whether the McCanns had been in Portugal or England.
But there may be some nuance I've missed ...
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I find that Misty asked an interesting question, totally on topic, which got drowned out.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5513.msg196899#msg196899
Misty's question was:
Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
If they had gone home and kept a low profile, perhaps making one or two appeals for information, I am convinced that the PJ would have slowly scaled back on the investigation and the ripples in Portugal would have matched the ripples in Greece when Ben went missing.
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If they had gone home and kept a low profile, perhaps making one or two appeals for information, I am convinced that the PJ would have slowly scaled back on the investigation and the ripples in Portugal would have matched the ripples in Greece when Ben went missing.
Well, let's see, the McCanns went home shortly after being made arguidos in September 2007 and the first investigation was shelved (I think, in accordance with Portuguese law) almost exactly a year later.
So I'm not sure about that.
I suppose there is the argument that, the McCanns having been declared arguidos, the PJ was obliged to keep on ...
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Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
A very interesting point misty. It is really difficult to know how any of it would have played out.
* Would Amaral have insisted on a reconstitution?
* Would Amaral been taken off the case?
* Would Murat and the McCanns been made arguidos?
* Would the case have been shelved much earlier?
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But so much of it would have been lost to The PJ. No hire car. No clothes. No trips or opportunities to dispose of the corpse on the second occasion. No lurid tales at all.
Just 5A. Would The PJ have bothered to bring Eddie and Keela in at all?
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But so much of it would have been lost to The PJ. No hire car. No clothes. No trips or opportunities to dispose of the corpse on the second occasion. No lurid tales at all.
Just 5A. Would The PJ have bothered to bring Eddie and Keela in at all?
IMO It would all depend on who orchestrated the disappearance as to whether the PJ pursued the investigation in the same fashion.
Sometimes I wonder if it was just meant to be a baby Daniel Abreu scenario, which then got out of hand.
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IMO It would all depend on who orchestrated the disappearance as to whether the PJ pursued the investigation in the same fashion.
Me too, misty.
I have wondered the same
Sometimes I wonder if it was just meant to be a baby Daniel Abreu scenario, which then got out of hand.
&%+((£ Are you able to elaborate?
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Me too, misty.
I have wondered the same
&%+((£ Are you able to elaborate?
No, I can't afford Carter Ruck, but I think you can read between the lines.
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IMO It would all depend on who orchestrated the disappearance as to whether the PJ pursued the investigation in the same fashion.
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How would who "orchestrated" as you say it affect how PJ would investigate?
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How would who "orchestrated" as you say it affect how PJ would investigate?
It would depend on what's at stake.
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It would depend on what's at stake.
The PJ were trying to solve the case. What was at stake for who?
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The PJ were trying to solve the case. What was at stake for who?
Do you believe certain officers were trying to solve the case or merely conclude it?
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Do you believe certain officers were trying to solve the case or merely conclude it?
To solve it, obviously, that is their profession.
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To solve it, obviously, that is their profession.
Hypothetically - supposing one or more of the more senior officers knew who had committed the crime, but prosecuting that person(s) would result in unfavourable repercussions within certain establishments?
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Hypothetically - supposing one or more of the more senior officers knew who had committed the crime, but prosecuting that person(s) would result in unfavourable repercussions within certain establishments?
That is wildly hypothetical.
Are you referring to the PJ or the NPIA or the LP or the DCCB? They were all working on it together.
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That is wildly hypothetical.
Are you referring to the PJ or the NPIA or the LP or the DCCB? They were all working on it together.
Is it wildly hypothetical?
All I can say is.....splish splash splosh. ?>)()<
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Is it wildly hypothetical?
All I can say is.....splish splash splosh. ?>)()<
Hopefully not the old azuremare theory reincarnating
That was bandied about years ago.
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Hypothetically - supposing one or more of the more senior officers knew who had committed the crime, but prosecuting that person(s) would result in unfavourable repercussions within certain establishments?
Strange, I have had exactly the same thoughts.
I have wondered.
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Hopefully not the old azuremare theory reincarnating
That was bandied about years ago.
Not exactly. no.
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Not exactly. no.
Good your hypothesis is not the ridiculous do it so you can write a book and line pockets guff.
Is yours anti-PJ?
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Good your hypothesis is not the ridiculous do it so you can write a book and line pockets guff.
Is yours anti-PJ?
You can understand the azuremare hypothesis - it must have rankled that one opportunist made quite a lot of cash whilst the other was left with his reputation on the brink......and the timing of the disappearance is such a coincidence.
I think envy is going to play a major part in solving the crime.
I'm anti anyone corrupt in institutions which are paid to serve & protect the public, and that includes the PJ, although I accept that corruption is sometimes the only way to achieve a greater good.
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Strange, I have had exactly the same thoughts.
I have wondered.
I am torn 3 ways in my theories, Sadie. It all depends on the motivation of the orchestrator.
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I am torn 3 ways in my theories, Sadie. It all depends on the motivation of the orchestrator.
Because of what I believe I have found out about what happened afterwards, I am virtually certain there was an abduction. [Afterwards = Not talking about what happened on May 3rd., but after that.]
As to whether there was some pressure put upon some senior guys within the PJ, that is another matter. We dont know.
I also have a question mark in my mind .
Are they all members of some Organisation that has a dark side ?
I am thinking an Organisation that has proved itself very efficient, worldwide, at getting its members into high / top positions within important services such as Police, Government, Intelligence, Law, Media, Church, Universities, etc. [The positions that run and influence the Countries.involved].
An Organisation that appears white and bone fide on the outside, but has a definite money making dark side.
There are quite a number of Organisations that could fit that bill.
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As far as I can see, there simply wouldn't have been the opportunities to manufacture all of the lies and myths surrounding this case.
And if Amaral had decided to write about it he would have been hard pushed to produce a Booklet.
However, I do understand why The McCanns stayed.
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If the McCann's had left within a week of Madeleine's disappearance...
They didn't so guess away...
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You can understand the azuremare hypothesis - it must have rankled that one opportunist made quite a lot of cash whilst the other was left with his reputation on the brink......and the timing of the disappearance is such a coincidence.
I think envy is going to play a major part in solving the crime.
I'm anti anyone corrupt in institutions which are paid to serve & protect the public, and that includes the PJ, although I accept that corruption is sometimes the only way to achieve a greater good.
No not me, I can not understand why it was invented, it amazes me that anyone was back then in 2009 so desperate as to concoct such rubbish.
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Please can someone tell me what the Azuremare Hypothesis is?
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Please can someone tell me what the Azuremare Hypothesis is?
It was a ludicrous bit of guff which appeared around the time of the Oprah interview, it claims 2 people commited crimes so they could afterwards write books about them to make money. A deluded invention which lets down the pro side and I am surprised anyone supports it.
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It was a ludicrous bit of guff which appeared around the time of the Oprah interview, it claims 2 people commited crimes so they could afterwards write books about them to make money. A deluded invention which lets down the pro side and I am surprised anyone supports it.
Thank You. A bit too far for me. But I do believe that Investigations were tampered with by certain people to aid financial gain.
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It was a ludicrous bit of guff which appeared around the time of the Oprah interview, it claims 2 people commited crimes so they could afterwards write books about them to make money. A deluded invention which lets down the pro side and I am surprised anyone supports it.
Thanks. I was about to ask as well as I'd never heard of that.
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Thank You. A bit too far for me. But I do believe that Investigations were tampered with by certain people to aid financial gain.
IMO all the officers (portuguese and british) in the pre-Oct-2nd investigation were dedicated and working hard to solve the case and your accusation against that hard-working PJ/LP/NPIA/MET team is unfair. How exactly do you think they tampered? And how do you think they financially gained?
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I just googled it and I found one reference.
Hmmm. The idea of active involvement in making these children disappear is too far-fetched for me.
That said:
- It is a fact that two children disappeared without trace and that former police officers then wrote books.
- I wouldn't exclude local corruption on the part of one or two "bad apples" after the events (WHOEVER they may be and in the sense of withholding potentially relevant information), but there doesn't appear to be anything to substantiate that at the moment.
- It does seem to be well established that numerous "leaks" came from the PJ, and that the media were quite happy to pay substantial sums for "infomation" wherever it came from (including local gossip).
Did all those "leaks" flutter out of the windows of the PT authorities for free (and not just in a financial sense)?
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IMO all the officers (portuguese and british) in the pre-Oct-2nd investigation were dedicated and working hard to solve the case and your accusation against that hard-working PJ/LP/NPIA/MET team is unfair. How exactly do you think they tampered? And how do you think they financially gained?
Most probably were working as hard as they could with the resources at hand.
That doesn't exclude the odd "bad apple" though, does it? I don't have any particular individual in mind, it could be anyone who may have withheld information or sold on "leaks", or several.
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IMO all the officers (portuguese and british) in the pre-Oct-2nd investigation were dedicated and working hard to solve the case and your accusation against that hard-working PJ/LP/NPIA/MET team is unfair. How exactly do you think they tampered? And how do you think they financially gained?
Someone was leaking to The Portuguese Press. And someone was writing books. But I suppose there is always a minute possibility that these things were being done for altruistic reasons.
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You don't sign a book deal if the subject matter could turn up dead or alive at any point before your deadline.
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A number of people seem to have written books on the subject, not to mention a number of documentaries, all giving their own individual slant on what happened.
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A number of people seem to have written books on the subject, not to mention a number of documentaries, all giving their own individual slant on what happened.
How many of them had full access to all the evidence?
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Probably none.
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I just googled it and I found one reference.
Hmmm. The idea of active involvement in making these children disappear is too far-fetched for me.
That said:
- It is a fact that two children disappeared without trace and that former police officers then wrote books.
- I wouldn't exclude local corruption on the part of one or two "bad apples" after the events (WHOEVER they may be and in the sense of withholding potentially relevant information), but there doesn't appear to be anything to substantiate that at the moment.
- It does seem to be well established that numerous "leaks" came from the PJ, and that the media were quite happy to pay substantial sums for "infomation" wherever it came from (including local gossip).
Did all those "leaks" flutter out of the windows of the PT authorities for free (and not just in a financial sense)?
The theory is preposterous.
It would be like accusing Churchill of starting the NW Frontier uprising himself just so he could write a book about it to make money.
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Probably none.
Really?
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The theory is preposterous.
It would be like accusing Churchill of starting the NW Frontier uprising himself just so he could write a book about it to make money.
I agree. I wasn't suggesting that I found it plausible, if you re-read my post.
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Really?
Yes, really. Who do you think had access to all the evidence?
In fact no one has all the evidence, otherwise someone would be convicted and the case would be closed.
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The theory is preposterous.
It would be like accusing Churchill of starting the NW Frontier uprising himself just so he could write a book about it to make money.
It depends how desperate you are for the cash. A precedent had been set.
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I agree. I wasn't suggesting that I found it plausible, if you re-read my post.
Yes understood.
And re accusations by others that Amaral wrote his book to make money, I think they are wrong and rather desperate. I think he wrote it because of his genuine determination that this case must be solved.
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Yes, really. Who do you think had access to all the evidence?
In fact no one has all the evidence, otherwise someone would be convicted and the case would be closed.
Many people believe that all the evidence available, presented in literary form as the truth, is enough to convict the parents.
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No, that illusive piece of the jigsaw is still being sought, though I suspect there are more pieces missing than have been found.
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Yes understood.
And re accusations by others that Amaral wrote his book to make money, I think they are wrong and rather desperate. I think he wrote it because of his genuine determination that this case must be solved.
Erm... I disagree with what I understood to be a suggestion in a certan conspiracy theory that children were made to disappear in order to cash in on their disappearances.
However, I disagree that Amaral wrote his book due to a "genuine determination that this case must be solved". He doesn't even state that himself as his main purposes.
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Erm... I disagree with what I understood to be a suggestion in a certan conspiracy theory that children were made to disappear in order to cash in on their disappearances.
However, I disagree that Amaral wrote his book due to a "genuine determination that this case must be solved". He doesn't even state that himself as his main purposes.
Wasn't Amaral's stated purpose in writing the book to "restore his honour" (or some such guff)?
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Yes understood.
And re accusations by others that Amaral wrote his book to make money, I think they are wrong and rather desperate. I think he wrote it because of his genuine determination that this case must be solved.
We had no idea until early in the libel trial of the parlous state of Dr Amaral's financial situation. Money from a best seller would have been very welcome indeed.
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The general consensus amongst "sceptics" is the the Summers and Swan book was written for the sole purpose of cashing in, yet Amaral wrote his for altruistic reasons...? Please pull the other one, it's got bells on.
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I would have thought that all the books and documentaries were for financial gain.
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I would have thought that all the books and documentaries were for financial gain.
I would have thought so too.
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So, going back to the original question of whether the PJ would have pursued the investigation in the same manner if the McCanns had left Portugal very early on...... the UK police & world media with them......who would have been searching for Madeleine....and how much attention would the story have attracted?
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So, going back to the original question of whether the PJ would have pursued the investigation in the same manner if the McCanns had left Portugal very early on...... the UK police & world media with them......who would have been searching for Madeleine....and how much attention would the story have attracted?
IMO the PT authorities would have been only too delighted to have seen the back of the McCanns ASAP and they would have given up searching even earlier than they did anyway.
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So, going back to the original question of whether the PJ would have pursued the investigation in the same manner if the McCanns had left Portugal very early on...... the UK police & world media with them......who would have been searching for Madeleine....and how much attention would the story have attracted?
The question of the thread is so extremely hypothetical it can not be answered.
Probably the June 6 Berlin press conference would have happened the same?
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The question of the thread is so extremely hypothetical it can not be answered.
Probably the June 6 Berlin press conference would have happened the same?
It's not really hypothetical.
Without the McCanns presence, the tourist industry would have quickly returned to normal and there would have been no pressure on the PJ to solve the case.
How many books & documentaries would have been made?
Do you think the world press would have been interested in "that couple from Leicester whose daughter went missing from a little Portuguese village"? Isn't that the nature of the complaint parents of so many missing children have?
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It's not really hypothetical.
Without the McCanns presence, the tourist industry would have quickly returned to normal and there would have been no pressure on the PJ to solve the case.
How many books & documentaries would have been made?
Do you think the world press would have been interested in "that couple from Leicester whose daughter went missing from a little Portuguese village"? Isn't that the nature of the complaint parents of so many missing children have?
The PJ and Leics Police and the National Policing Improvement Agency and the Met phone forensics experts would have investigated every bit as professionally as they did, they were doing a good job.
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We had no idea until early in the libel trial of the parlous state of Dr Amaral's financial situation. Money from a best seller would have been very welcome indeed.
It would seem that if the McCanns needed to dip into the fund to pay their mortgage barely a month after their child had gone missing then things were financially precarious for them too.
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The PJ and Leics Police and the National Policing Improvement Agency and the Met phone forensics experts would have investigated every bit as professionally as they did, they were doing a good job.
I'm not sure exactly how far the British contingent would have been allowed to progress the investigation ... it doesn't appear to be a particularly easy thing to do if the present difficulty being experienced by SY is anything to go by.
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I'm not sure exactly how far the British contingent would have been allowed to progress the investigation ... it doesn't appear to be a particularly easy thing to do if the present difficulty being experienced by SY is anything to go by.
Expert MH of the UK police (NPIA) had no problems progressing the investigation in July 2007 - he was provided with a helicopter - and his recommendations were taken seriously - and resources provided by the PJ to follow them up. So the idea that the PJ were hindering the work of the UK experts is untrue. Whether some of the witnesses were living in Portugal or UK made no difference.
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It would seem that if the McCanns needed to dip into the fund to pay their mortgage barely a month after their child had gone missing then things were financially precarious for them too.
They were skint when Madeleine disappeared.
"When Madeleine first went missing, family and friends had to step in to help them pay the mortgage." (Patricia Cameron)
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They were skint when Madeleine disappeared.
"When Madeleine first went missing, family and friends had to step in to help them pay the mortgage." (Patricia Cameron)
You have to wonder why when Gerry was earning a large salary as a consultant cardiologist and Kate a less substantial but still adequate salary as a part-time GP ?
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The McCanns had just paid out for a relatively expensive holiday. They almost certainly have a budget, Like most of us.
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The McCanns had just paid out for a relatively expensive holiday. They almost certainly have a budget, Like most of us.
The McCanns had paid for an early-in-the-season bog standard self-catering apartment, hardly living the high life, and if the McCanns couldn't find the £2000 to pay their mortgage, even though Gerry was still being paid, barely a month after their daughter's disappearance, should they really have been splashing out on a holiday at all ?
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The McCanns had paid for an early-in-the-season bog standard self-catering apartment, hardly living the high life, and if the McCanns couldn't find the £2000 to pay their mortgage, even though Gerry was still being paid, barely a month after their daughter's disappearance, should they really have been splashing out on a holiday at all ?
I don't know. I can't afford a holiday even that cheap.
And hasn't there been some discussion on whether or not Gerry was actually being paid?
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I don't know. I can't afford a holiday even that cheap.
And hasn't there been some discussion on whether or not Gerry was actually being paid?
There was but Kate put paid to that in her book where she admitted that he was on paid compassionate leave and also that the partners in her practice had agreed she should be paid two months wages also.
It would seem that the average wage for a cardiologist is £143,000 per/annum.
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There was but Kate put paid to that in her book where she admitted that he was on paid compassionate leave and also that the partners in her practice had agreed she should be paid two months wages also.
It would seem that the average wage for a cardiologist is £143,000 per/annum.
Thank you. However, staying in Portugal will most certainly have raised expenses that weren't covered by The Fund.
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Thank you. However, staying in Portugal will most certainly have raised expenses that weren't covered by The Fund.
Two months in ? Mark Warner were paying for their apartment so what extra expenses would they be incurring ?
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Thank you. However, staying in Portugal will most certainly have raised expenses that weren't covered by The Fund.
I thought the Fund wording meant that almost everything could be covered by the fund.
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I thought the Fund wording meant that almost everything could be covered by the fund.
It can jassi but it's interesting that the McCanns chose it use it to pay their mortgage, thus depleting the money available to search for their daughter, if they had enough private money to pay for it themselves.
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Two months in ? Mark Warner were paying for their apartment so what extra expenses would they be incurring ?
I don't think Mark Warner were paying for The Villa. So in effect they were paying for two households.
Has anyone seen chapter and verse of everything The Fund was paying for?
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I don't think Mark Warner were paying for The Villa. So in effect they were paying for two households.
Has anyone seen chapter and verse of everything The Fund was paying for?
Before the McCanns moved to the villa, and at a time they were paying for their mortgage from the fund, Mark Warner were paying for their accommodation.
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It can jassi but it's interesting that the McCanns chose it use it to pay their mortgage, thus depleting the money available to search for their daughter, if they had enough private money to pay for it themselves.
I think they more than made up for a couple of mortgage payments with the hundreds of thousands of pounds of their own money which they have contributed to the fund - a fact which is always studiously ignored by sceptics.
As a contributor myself - I have no complaints if my contribution (small as it was) helped them to pay their mortgage. The fact that without warning they were unable to return to their normal life/jobs as planned, and had had no chance to foresee that happening, is one of the reasons why I contributed in the first place. i.e. to help prevent 'financial reasons' forcing them to leave PT before they wanted to. It didn't matter to me what they spent it on.
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Didn't they repay the mortgage payments later?
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Didn't they repay the mortgage payments later?
We are told as much but there is no evidence of it in the accounts and the McCanns have never claimed that they did.
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Who paid for all the extended family's accommodation - was that Mark Warner as well ?
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Who paid for all the extended family's accommodation - was that Mark Warner as well ?
in the beginning yes but I'm not sure after the McCanns moved to the villa though it was probably the fund.
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I don't think Mark Warner were paying for The Villa. So in effect they were paying for two households.
Has anyone seen chapter and verse of everything The Fund was paying for?
There is no legal requirement for this information to be made available to the public. As has been said before the company is only required to produce for their members and Companies House:
1) a profit and loss account (or income and expenditure account if the company is not trading for profit)
2) a balance sheet signed by a director on behalf of the board and the printed name of that director.
3) notes to the accounts.
Beyond that it is up to directors of the company what they wish to tell the general public. Before anyone goes banging on about auditors and such like find out exactly what an auditors duties are wrt examining company accounts.
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There is no legal requirement for this information to be made available to the public. As has been said before the company is only required to produce for their members and Companies House:
1) a profit and loss account (or income and expenditure account if the company is not trading for profit)
2) a balance sheet signed by a director on behalf of the board and the printed name of that director.
3) notes to the accounts.
Beyond that it is up to directors of the company what they wish to tell the general public. Before anyone goes banging on about auditors and such like find out exactly what an auditors duties are wrt examining company accounts.
I am not bothered one way or the other.
Initially, the flood of donations was to help The McCanns stay in Portugal. But there will have been things they will have needed that The Fund didn't pay for.
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I am not bothered one way or the other.
Initially, the flood of donations was to help The McCanns stay in Portugal. But there will have been things they will have needed that The Fund didn't pay for.
Such as ?
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Such as ?
Give me a minute and I'll make a list.
Not all holiday properties are all stocked, and I should know about that. Did they have an Oyster Knife, for instance?
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Such as ?
What exactly are you trying to prove Faith? I'm genuinely puzzled.
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I am not bothered one way or the other.
Initially, the flood of donations was to help The McCanns stay in Portugal. But there will have been things they will have needed that The Fund didn't pay for.
Oh sorry! I presumed you had asked because you were genuinely interested in receiving an answer.
I did not appreciate it was a rhetorical question. Silly me yet again.
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Oh sorry! I presumed you had asked because you were genuinely interested in receiving an answer.
I did not appreciate it was a rhetorical question. Silly me yet again.
That's okay. No one's perfect.
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What exactly are you trying to prove Faith? I'm genuinely puzzled.
I'm not trying to prove anything Benice. I'm merely pointing out that if Amaral's precarious financial situation is deemed a reflection of his character then the same logic should be applied to the McCanns.
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I'm not trying to prove anything Benice. I'm merely pointing out that if Amaral's precarious financial situation is deemed a reflection of his character then the same logic should be applied to the McCanns.
But Amaral had loads of money for nearly a year. None of which he spent on paying his debts. But he did have a couple of good parties and a face lift for his wife.
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But Amaral had loads of money for nearly a year. None of which he spent on paying his debts. But he did have a couple of good parties and a face lift for his wife.
Good for him 8(>((
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But Amaral had loads of money for nearly a year. None of which he spent on paying his debts. But he did have a couple of good parties and a face lift for his wife.
And Gerry and his wife had well paid jobs but still dipped into the fund to find their daughter for mortgage payments that they should have been able to meet.
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And Gerry and his wife had well paid jobs but still dipped into the fund to find their daughter for mortgage payments that they should have been able to meet.
Briefly they weren't able. I find nothing sinister in that.
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Who, other than you, is mentioning 'sinister'?
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Who, other than you, is mentioning 'sinister'?
Why such a fuss about two mortgage payments?
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Briefly they weren't able. I find nothing sinister in that.
Between them they were probably earning in the region of £200000+ per annum and at the time the mortgage payments were made both Gerry and Kate were being paid their normal salaries so why weren't they able to pay their mortgage ?
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That's okay. No one's perfect.
That is self evident looking at the inmates here 8(>((
No offence meant of course! I think you know when I am being offensive; Captain Flint has nowt on me!
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Between them they were probably earning in the region of £200000+ per annum and at the time the mortgage payments were made both Gerry and Kate were being paid their normal salaries so why weren't they able to pay their mortgage ?
Maybe they just saw the money there and thought 'why not'.
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Between them they were probably earning in the region of £200000+ per annum and at the time the mortgage payments were made both Gerry and Kate were being paid their normal salaries so why weren't they able to pay their mortgage ?
Why do you think they weren't able to pay their mortgage?
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Why do you think they weren't able to pay their mortgage?
Do you really think any self-respecting parent would dip into the fund set up to find their disappeared daughter if they had any other choice ?
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Do you really think any self-respecting parent would dip into the fund set up to find their disappeared daughter if they had any other choice ?
So why did they do it?
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So why did they do it?
Because they could ?
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So why did they do it?
According to Gerry's sister it seems they were rather financially embarrassed.
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According to Gerry's sister it seems they were rather financially embarrassed.
What bearing does this have on the disappearance of Madeleine? In your opinion.
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What bearing does this have on the disappearance of Madeleine? In your opinion.
None unless you see having financial problems as systematic of a lack of mortality as the faithful do with regard to Amaral.
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Now you know we are not allowed a level playing field.
Anything the McCanns do - good. Anything anyone else does - bad
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None unless you see having financial problems as systematic of a lack of mortality as the faithful do with regard to Amaral.
What has a lack of mortality got to do with anything?
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What has a lack of mortality got to do with anything?
A lack of morality would suggest you would be able to justify any form of behaviour to yourself up to and including covering up your daughter's death.
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LOL at a lack of mortality. Would that make you immortal then? @)(++(*
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A lack of morality would suggest you would be able to justify any form of behaviour to yourself up to and including covering up your daughter's death.
So nine apparently normal, ordinary, hardworking folk, all with families, nice homes and good jobs - who had no previous history of mental illness or criminal records - were actually all huge FAKES, who in reality had no morals at all, and could see nothing wrong in getting rid of the body of the 4yr old daughter of one of them - who they had just found out had just died. In fact it didn't even affect their appetites - as on hearing the news they all went on to have a jolly good meal, a pleasant drink and exchange lighthearted banter.
All NINE of them? - including an elderly grandmother???
How can any sane person actually believe that?
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So nine apparently normal, ordinary, hardworking folk, all with families, nice homes and good jobs - who had no previous history of mental illness or criminal records - were actually all huge FAKES, who in reality had no morals at all, and could see nothing wrong in getting rid of the body of the 4yr old daughter of one of them - who they had just found out had just died. In fact it didn't even affect their appetites - as on hearing the news they all went on to have a jolly good meal, a pleasant drink and exchange lighthearted banter.
All NINE of them? - including an elderly grandmother???
How can any sane person actually believe that?
I don't think any sane person has actually suggested that.
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I don't think any sane person has actually suggested that.
You are quite right...many on here have suggested that but none of them are sane
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You are quite right...many on here have suggested that but none of them are sane
I was thinking the last person who put it forward.
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I don't think any sane person has actually suggested that.
Of course not.
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I don't think any sane person has actually suggested that.
Really? I thought that was exactly what most sceptics allege is what happened. i.e.
1. There was no abduction.
2.. That Madeleine died in the apartment on the 3rd May.
3. That Gerry and Kate decided to dispose of her body and the rest of group readily agreed to be their accomplices by aiding and abetting them in covering up that heinous crime, without even a hint of conscience amongst the lot of them
That is the theory isn't it?
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Really? I thought that was exactly what most sceptics allege is what happened. i.e.
1. There was no abduction.
2.. That Madeleine died in the apartment on the 3rd May.
3. That Gerry and Kate decided to dispose of her body and the rest of group readily agreed to be their accomplices by aiding and abetting them in covering up that heinous crime, without even a hint of conscience amongst the lot of them
That is the theory isn't it?
It would have to involve all 9, wouldn't it Ben.
It couldn't be just two faking & the rest duped, could it.
Yawn.
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It would have to involve all 9, wouldn't it Ben.
It couldn't be just two faking & the rest duped, could it.
Yawn.
Gosh no! To destroy the "argument" one has to suggest all the others were involved then close ones mind to ........
well you know the rest!
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Gosh no! To destroy the "argument" one has to suggest all the others were involved then close ones mind to ........
well you know the rest!
It just had to involve all 9, didn't it.
There is absoloutely no way it couldn't, is there.
The mere suggestion of anything to the contrary is just ludicrous!
..............zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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It just had to involve all 9, didn't it.
There is absoloutely no way it couldn't, is there.
The mere suggestion of anything to the contrary is just ludicrous!
..............zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Just the 9 ? Hell no !!!
For there not to have been an abduction the conspiracy must include at least a whole government department and one or two ex-prime ministers ! Every sceptic knows that !!!
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Just the 9 ? Hell no !!!
For there not to have been an abduction the conspiracy must include at least a whole government department and one or two ex-prime ministers ! Every sceptic knows that !!!
Sheesh, yep, how could I forget, Gordon Brown & the illuminati!
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Well this is a turn up for the books - we actually have sceptics sneering at the nonsensical, widely held beliefs of fellow sceptics - and even listing them!
As someone who believes Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and has been arguing against those same ridiculous sceptic 'theories' (now being scoffed at) - for years - I find that quite heartening.
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Well this is a turn up for the books - we actually have sceptics sneering at the nonsensical, widely held beliefs of fellow sceptics - and even listing them!
As someone who believes Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and has been arguing against those same ridiculous sceptic 'theories' (now being scoffed at) - for years - I find that quite heartening.
Possibly you are missing the point Benny
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Well this is a turn up for the books - we actually have sceptics sneering at the nonsensical, widely held beliefs of fellow sceptics - and even listing them!
As someone who believes Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and has been arguing against those same ridiculous sceptic 'theories' (now being scoffed at) - for years - I find that quite heartening.
............and let's not forget, the biggest fable of them all.
'abduction'
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Really? I thought that was exactly what most sceptics allege is what happened. i.e.
1. There was no abduction.
2.. That Madeleine died in the apartment on the 3rd May.
3. That Gerry and Kate decided to dispose of her body and the rest of group readily agreed to be their accomplices by aiding and abetting them in covering up that heinous crime, without even a hint of conscience amongst the lot of them
That is the theory isn't it?
That is the one you are promoting.
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God did say that it was ludicrous to suggest that the whole tapas group were involved in Madeleine's disappearance. Moving the goalposts. Incidentally Maddy was footy mad just like her parents.
“Maddy went from the poolside to a play area to have a game of football with Louie…………..she & Louie were kicking a football around in the play area for about an hour………." (Mrs. Boyd)
Louie Boyd couldn't believe that his new friend was so good at football. After all, she was only a girl.......
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Keesh.htm
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46583000/jpg/_46583161_-7.jpg)
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God did say that it was ludicrous to suggest that the whole tapas group were involved in Madeleine's disappearance. Moving the goalposts. Incidentally Maddy was footy mad just like her parents.
“Maddy went from the poolside to a play area to have a game of football with Louie…………..she & Louie were kicking a football around in the play area for about an hour………." (Mrs. Boyd)
Louie Boyd couldn't believe that his new friend was so good at football. After all, she was only a girl.......
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Keesh.htm
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46583000/jpg/_46583161_-7.jpg)
and never lose sight that km said Madeleine was her best friend.
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Are you saying that it's not the general consensus amongst sceptics that Kate and Gerry disposed of their daughter's body and covered up that crime with the help of the other members of their group?
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Perhaps people would care to speculate as to how the investigation would have developed had the McCanns been obliged by work/financial commitments to return to the UK within a week or so of Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you think that the PJ would have tried to develop evidence against the parents in the same fashion 3 months down the line or would the investigation have been quietly scaled right back & quickly shelved?
1. The McCanns would have been berated for "fleeing justice", just as they were anyway, only more so.
2. Grime would still have coaxed and cajoled a "reaction" out of Eddie in apartment 5a, but there would obviously have been no inspections at the villa.
And since the McCanns would have taken all their clothes with them, there would have been no "inspection", either, at the gym.
Vehicles?
Obviously there would have been no "inspection" of the Renault Scenic, and perhaps Grime would have stuck to Harrison's instruction that Murat's vehicles (hired or owned) only should be inspected.
Or perhaps the 6 others Harrison doffed his cap and took orders about would still have snuck in.
Who knows?
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Are you saying that it's not the general consensus amongst sceptics that Kate and Gerry disposed of their daughter's body and covered up that crime with the help of the other members of their group?
Why did they need help? Were the others living in their apartment?
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1. The McCanns would have been berated for "fleeing justice", just as they were anyway, only more so.
2. Grime would still have coaxed and cajoled a "reaction" out of Eddie in apartment 5a, but there would obviously have been no inspections at the villa.
And since the McCanns would have taken all their clothes with them, there would have been no "inspection", either, at the gym.
Vehicles?
Obviously there would have been no "inspection" of the Renault Scenic, and perhaps Grime would have stuck to Harrison's instruction that Murat's vehicles (hired or owned) only should be inspected.
Or perhaps the 6 others Harrison doffed his cap and took orders about would still have snuck in.
Who knows?
Here's your friend in court.
Martin Grime testifies at the murder trial of D'Andre Lane - in connection with the disappearance of his two-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones - after his cadaver dog 'Morse' detects a scent inside Lane's car (on the child's blanket and on a car seat), in the girl's bedroom and in Lane's home.
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/martingrimebjcase.JPG)
"He went underneath Mr. Lane's car then came out and barked ... like woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof," Grime said, adding that he wasn't told that the silver Mercury was Lane's until after the search was complete.
"What was the response what you opened the door and the trunk, sir?" Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb asked.
"There was a positive response -- the dog barked continuously," he said, adding that the dog didn't bark at any other cars.
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/morse.JPG)
A Detroit father who covered up beating his daughter to death by claiming she had been abducted in a carjacking has been sentenced to life behind bars - while repeatedly insisting that she's still alive.
D'Andre Lane, 33, denied abusing and killing two-year-old Bianca Jones for wetting herself, and said there was no evidence of the charges against him.
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I suspect my reason for finding the d'Lane trial interesting is quite different from yours ...
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Here's your friend in court.
Martin Grime testifies at the murder trial of D'Andre Lane - in connection with the disappearance of his two-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones - after his cadaver dog 'Morse' detects a scent inside Lane's car (on the child's blanket and on a car seat), in the girl's bedroom and in Lane's home.
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/martingrimebjcase.JPG)
"He went underneath Mr. Lane's car then came out and barked ... like woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof," Grime said, adding that he wasn't told that the silver Mercury was Lane's until after the search was complete.
"What was the response what you opened the door and the trunk, sir?" Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb asked.
"There was a positive response -- the dog barked continuously," he said, adding that the dog didn't bark at any other cars.
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/morse.JPG)
A Detroit father who covered up beating his daughter to death by claiming she had been abducted in a carjacking has been sentenced to life behind bars - while repeatedly insisting that she's still alive.
D'Andre Lane, 33, denied abusing and killing two-year-old Bianca Jones for wetting herself, and said there was no evidence of the charges against him.
Perhaps you would elaborate for the readers the circumstances under which the dog indicated cadaver odour on the car seat, P/F.
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Please enlighten me as to why you think he's innocent and she was abducted. Just because he said so?
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Who is your question addressed to?
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It was to misty but anyone.
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It was to misty but anyone.
OK.
Well, my answer is that my interest in the case has nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of D'Lane.
I rather suspect that even without the dog evidence (actually the right word, on this occasion) D'Lane would have been convicted.
And he has recently lost an appeal against that conviction.
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Please enlighten me as to why you think he's innocent and she was abducted. Just because he said so?
I wasn't questioning Lane's innocence or guilt. I asked you to elaborate, for the benefit of the readers, of the circumstances under which the cadaver dog indicated the contamination on the car seat.
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I wasn't questioning Lane's innocence or guilt. I asked you to elaborate, for the benefit of the readers, of the circumstances under which the cadaver dog indicated the contamination on the car seat.
I know the answer, but I respect that you've addressed the question to pathfinder ...
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I know the answer, but I respect that you've addressed the question to pathfinder ...
Indeed I have, Ferryman - If he can fight his way out of that paper bag to answer it.
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Read more here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html
He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.
Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
Investigators then set up a search in another warehouse using Bianca's blanket that had been in the car seat. Grime said the dog barked when it came across a brown paper bag on the floor with the blanket inside.
"Were you aware of where any of these items were going to be when Morse signaled on them?" Goldfarb asked.
"No," Grime said, adding that he can't force the dog to bark continuously and he never saw the actual car seat or blanket.
Grime said he then took Morse to Lane's house, where Morse sat and barked in Bianca's bedroom, close to the opening of a door-less closet.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" Judge Vonda Evans asked. He said no.
But Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, raised questions about the dog's ability to detect decomposition during his cross-examination.
"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
"He gave us a positive response," Morse said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
"The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked.
"No," Grime said.
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Read more here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html
He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.
Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
Investigators then set up a search in another warehouse using Bianca's blanket that had been in the car seat. Grime said the dog barked when it came across a brown paper bag on the floor with the blanket inside.
"Were you aware of where any of these items were going to be when Morse signaled on them?" Goldfarb asked.
"No," Grime said, adding that he can't force the dog to bark continuously and he never saw the actual car seat or blanket.
Grime said he then took Morse to Lane's house, where Morse sat and barked in Bianca's bedroom, close to the opening of a door-less closet.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" Judge Vonda Evans asked. He said no.
But Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, raised questions about the dog's ability to detect decomposition during his cross-examination.
"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
"He gave us a positive response," Morse said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
"The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked.
"No," Grime said.
It is curious to read that the cadaver dog could not detect a cadaver-contaminated object in a brown paper bag yet a trained dog could detect scent on a key buried in a bucket of sand. Of course, we have no information if the bag was bog-standard brown paper, which is gas-permeable, or one treated with a wax/ plastic coating making it non-permeable.
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It is curious to read that the cadaver dog could not detect a cadaver-contaminated object in a brown paper bag yet a trained dog could detect scent on a key buried in a bucket of sand. Of course, we have no information if the bag was bog-standard brown paper, which is gas-permeable, or one treated with a wax/ plastic coating making it non-permeable.
Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
And second time around, Morse sniffed out the seat ...
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"You are never more than a dead dog away from a JF thread".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9X3iF6ntXQ
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This habit of moving stuff around to test it twice is not confined to the D'Andre Lane investigation, and indeed preceded the D'Andre Lane investigation ...
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This habit of moving stuff around to test it twice is not confined to the D'Andre Lane investigation, and indeed preceded the D'Andre Lane investigation ...
Yes, Ferryman - clothes, toy cats & keys.
It's actually sad to have to point out that a corpse could have been wrapped up in a sealed bin bag in any one of the other 9 cars Eddie & Keela weren't allowed inside but they would never have indicated.
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Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
And second time around, Morse sniffed out the seat ...
How much is that doggie in the OPEN window?
The one with the waggly tail.
How much is that doggie in the OPEN window?
I do hope that doggie WILL FAIL. @)(++(*
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_w-8JKaTohe4/TEXgCgOGqyI/AAAAAAAAcLY/xAxIlmHeP1E/s1600/eddie_superdog.jpg)
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It is curious to read that the cadaver dog could not detect a cadaver-contaminated object in a brown paper bag yet a trained dog could detect scent on a key buried in a bucket of sand. Of course, we have no information if the bag was bog-standard brown paper, which is gas-permeable, or one treated with a wax/ plastic coating making it non-permeable.
Sand is gas-permeable.
Sealed waxed paper is not gas-permeable.
Until you make a hole in it.
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Sand is gas-permeable.
Sealed waxed paper is not gas-permeable.
Until you make a hole in it.
We haven't been told the constitution of the brown paper wrapping or the type of sand used.
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We haven't been told the constitution of the brown paper wrapping or the type of sand used.
There was a recent London case, involving a dog like Eddie, and I notice there is not a thread questioning the professionalism of that dog and its handler or the training and prcedures used.
Mr Grime seems IMO an expert, have you considered that his dog Ed possibly provides useful intelligence for scenarios other than the IMO incorrect "theydunit" theory?
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There was a recent London case, involving a dog like Eddie, and I notice there is not a thread questioning the professionalism of that dog and its handler or the training and prcedures used.
Mr Grime seems IMO an expert, have you considered that his dog Ed possibly provides useful intelligence for scenarios other than the IMO incorrect "theydunit" theory?
I believe that the dogs serve a very useful purpose in many circumstances, but, like humans, are not perfect and have limitations. For example, if Madeleine's corpse was really buried in the wasteland in a sealed plastic container, I doubt that the dogs would find her, as per the car seat & the brown paper..
I also believe that Eddie & Keela found what they were trained to find in Pdl. Quite why so much prompting occurred is another matter entirely.
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There was a recent London case, involving a dog like Eddie, and I notice there is not a thread questioning the professionalism of that dog and its handler or the training and prcedures used.
Mr Grime seems IMO an expert, have you considered that his dog Ed possibly provides useful intelligence for scenarios other than the IMO incorrect "theydunit" theory?
The dogs were excellent, but the interpretataions afterwards were rubbishy. Amaral just didn't understand things .... or he didn't want to.
Martin did call Eddie back repeatedly and tapped things. Would you consider that the best practice?
A lot of time was spent going over the second Mccann apartment, and Eddie didn't alert for some time. How come that we accept that there was nothing to alert to in the OC apartments which he was whizzed around? It took quite some time in the second Mccann apartment and he didn't spend nearly as much time in any of the other Tapas group apartments
When he went around 5A he alerted to some blood but we know that someone else staying there later, bled heavily in that apartment ... so we cant take too much notice of that, can we?.
Also he made at least one major mistake when he took CCat out of that cupboard in flat 2 ...and pronounced that Ccat had caused the alert.
As we all saw , it was the pile of folders / papers on top of the counter that caused the alert. We all make mistakes and that was easy to do ....but that was a major mistake, IMO
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I believe that the dogs serve a very useful purpose in many circumstances, but, like humans, are not perfect and have limitations. For example, if Madeleine's corpse was really buried in the wasteland in a sealed plastic container, I doubt that the dogs would find her, as per the car seat & the brown paper..
I also believe that Eddie & Keela found what they were trained to find in Pdl. Quite why so much prompting occurred is another matter entirely.
Prompting, handler knowing exactly which property she is examining, no placebo properties, pollution of crime scene by dozens of people walking through it for many days and nights, all those happened in the another case too but I don't see anyone criticising the procedures or professionalism there, although to be fair what the dog said was treated as impossible rubbish. For a while.
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At the end of the day the dog is trained all his life NOT to bark unless he finds what he has been professionally trained to find. Eddie was the best. Look at the Prout case. They had nothing until Eddie's positive alert. That changed the whole case. His alerts will not be ignored by SY!
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Prompting, handler knowing exactly which property she is examining, no placebo properties, pollution of crime scene by dozens of people walking through it for many days and nights, all those happened in the another case too but I don't see anyone criticising the procedures or professionalism there, although to be fair what the dog said was treated as impossible rubbish. For a while.
If you're referring to the TS case, I think the role of the dogs & their handlers left a lot to be desired. However, as a result was achieved, I doubt that too much emphasis will be placed on that particular failing.
It will be interesting to learn whether the dogs played any role in the discovery of AG's body.
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If you're referring to the TS case, I think the role of the dogs & their handlers left a lot to be desired. However, as a result was achieved, I doubt that too much emphasis will be placed on that particular failing.
It will be interesting to learn whether the dogs played any role in the discovery of AG's body.
The failing there was certainly not the EVRD and handler (who gave the exact solution) it was the initial discarding by others of that intelligence.
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The failing there was certainly not the EVRD and handler (who gave the exact solution) it was the decision by others to initially discard their intelligence.
I don't know what the official line is regarding the failure to locate the body sooner - has a report been published yet? If the dogs & their handlers were ignored by others, does that mean the system has no faith in the dogs?
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I don't know what the official line is regarding the failure to locate the body sooner - has a report been published yet? If the dogs & their handlers were ignored by others, does that mean the system has no faith in the dogs?
Just IMO, ignored first time because peeps had already searched there, brought in again about 3 days later and this time not ignored, if not for them the evidence would probaly be gone and the case unsolved, all just IMO, might be wrong, etc