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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on December 20, 2014, 04:04:24 AM
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Jeremy claimed he brought the bike over three days before the massacre for Julie.
Jeremy's supporters have said it is a coincidence that the bike arrived just before the massacre. The prosecution successfully argued he cycled to and from WHF.
Anyway. The fact is Jeremy brought June's bike back to his cottage in his car three days before the massacre. But what was Julie going to use the bike for ?
She did not live at Jeremy's cottage. Or work near there as far as I am aware.
When she visits Jeremy, she is going to see Jeremy. Not go cycling off on her own.
Were they going to go on romantic cycling journeys together. Well, no as there was only one bike.
Did Jeremy have a car ? Yes, so they could drive to places together. Or Jeremy could give her a lift. Unless Jeremy was going to drive somewhere and make Julie cycle. I know Jeremy said the relationship had been in decline for 6 months but... Leading on from this the judge asked why would a bike be brought over if the relationship had been in decline for six months ? The judge also said the bike had dried blood on. But did not elaborate where it came from.
Maybe the bike was really brought for Jeremy's own personal use ? Yeah right, he would not be seen dead on it.
Had Julie been pestering Jeremy for a bike ? If so he took his time getting one. By co incidence bringing a bike over just before the massacre. Julie saying he wanted to do a trial bike ride to WHF. Even then he didn't buy one. Rather just took June's.
Perhaps Julie could have brought her own bike over. If she had one. Or Jeremy could have bought her one. June bought a bike for a reason, probably for her own personal use. As people do.
The bike was forensically tested weeks later. Not sure what would be found. If Jeremy had cleaned up at WHF before getting on it. Or had no serious wounds. He also had weeks to wash it down.
Does anyone know what Julie was going to use the bike for ?
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Does anyone know what Julie was going to use the bike for ?
I thought I read somewhere that JB had secured JM some work at Maldon Growers (a Co part owned by N & J Bamber Ltd) and it was to get to and from work? If JB was working long hours at WHF, JM was pretty much stranded at Goldhanger when she stayed over. As far as I could see when I visited the area last year GH is a small village with just a pub and church and cut off from neighbouring towns. I don't recall there even being a convenience store or newsagent and I doubt there was much by way of public transport.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7459799,0.755641,15z
As it was summer and far less road traffic than today I would imagine it would be quite nice to have a bike to get around on. Often the most popular mode of transport in university towns. Think BoJo's bike scheme in London.
Adam as I've said before you either see these things eg the bike as benign, as I do, or you see them as suspicious as you do. The mind perceives and interprets the background info in one of two ways based on many complex factors. Perhaps an analogy is the following optical illusion where some can only see an old lady with others seeing a young lady and some seeing both - see below. What do you see Adam?
There is obviously only one truth either JB is guilty as charged or he is the victim of arguably the worst MoJ in modern criminal history. All the peripheral stuff bike etc could be interpreted either way. He could be guilty and gone to WHF on foot with the bike being unconnected.
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From memory and according to Jeremy, wasn't the bike allegedly brought to Goldhanger to facilitate Julie getting to and from the train station? Julie denied this in her police interviews and added that she never used the bicycle.
Yet another example of Jeremy saying one thing and Julie another.
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I thought I read somewhere that JB had secured JM some work at Maldon Growers (a Co part owned by N & J Bamber Ltd) and it was to get to and from work? If JB was working long hours at WHF, JM was pretty much stranded at Goldhanger when she stayed over. As far as I could see when I visited the area last year GH is a small village with just a pub and church and cut off from neighbouring towns. I don't recall there even being a convenience store or newsagent and I doubt there was much by way of public transport.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7459799,0.755641,15z (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7459799,0.755641,15z)
As it was summer and far less road traffic than today I would imagine it would be quite nice to have a bike to get around on. Often the most popular mode of transport in university towns. Think BoJo's bike scheme in London.
Adam as I've said before you either see these things eg the bike as benign, as I do, or you see them as suspicious as you do. The mind perceives and interprets the background info in one of two ways based on many complex factors. Perhaps an analogy is the following optical illusion where some can only see an old lady with others seeing a young lady and some seeing both - see below. What do you see Adam?
There is obviously only one truth either JB is guilty as charged or he is the victim of arguably the worst MoJ in modern criminal history. All the peripheral stuff bike etc could be interpreted either way. He could be guilty and gone to WHF on foot with the bike being unconnected.
Two statements by Julie Mugford in which Jeremy Bamber told her of his intention to walk or use a bicycle to travel to WHF and dispose of his family...
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From memory and according to Jeremy, wasn't the bike allegedly brought to Goldhanger to facilitate Julie getting to and from the train station? Julie denied this in her police interviews and added that she never used the bicycle.
Yet another example of Jeremy saying one thing and Julie another.
I will retrieve the relevant WS's when I have more time. Chelmsford train station is some 15 miles from GH and if JM had overnight baggage etc it seems a bit of a trek on a bike? I assume she would leave the bike at the station and then use it for her return journey to GH? North Maldon Growers is only down the road from GH. I can see the bike being used for short regular journeys but I'm not sure irregular longer journeys with baggage (physical rather than emotional 8(0(*) would be practical?
Perhaps I'm asleep at the wheel here...but what was JM doing in London on 6th/7th August? College/uni and schools would have broken up by then?
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North Maldon Growers Ltd (A co formerly part owned by N & J Bamber Ltd) where JB secured JM some seasonal work. Map showing North Maldon Growers Ltd in relation to Goldhanger:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/North+Maldon+Growers+Ltd/@51.755021,0.746552,13z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x47d8e1f1e40a5c7b:0x58d120c231ea20ed
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I will retrieve the relevant WS's when I have more time. Chelmsford train station is some 15 miles from GH and if JM had overnight baggage etc it seems a bit of a trek on a bike? I assume she would leave the bike at the station and then use it for her return journey to GH? North Maldon Growers is only down the road from GH. I can see the bike being used for short regular journeys but I'm not sure irregular longer journeys with baggage (physical rather than emotional 8(0(*) would be practical?
Perhaps I'm asleep at the wheel here...but what was JM doing in London on 6th/7th August? College/uni and schools would have broken up by then?
Quite simple really, she was working.
In Julie's diary entry dated 7th August 1985, she refers to the conversation she had with Jeremy at 5.40am on the morning of the murders where he tells her, "don't go to work, a panda car will pick you up".
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=255.msg4231#msg4231
As far as the bike was concerned, the story offered by Jeremy was that it was brought to the house in Goldhanger so that Julie could cycle from Goldhanger to Toleshunt D'arcy, leaving the bike at the Red Lion Pub. She would then get the Osbourne's bus which runs from Tollesbury to Colchester. All of which Julie denied ever happened.
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Quite simple really, she was working.
In Julie's diary entry dated 7th August 1985, she refers to the conversation she had with Jeremy at 5.40am on the morning of the murders where he tells her, "don't go to work, a panda car will pick you up".
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=255.msg4231#msg4231
As far as the bike was concerned, the story offered by Jeremy was that it was brought to the house in Goldhanger so that Julie could cycle from Goldhanger to Toleshunt D'arcy, leaving the bike at the Red Lion Pub. She would then get the Osbourne's bus which runs from Tollesbury to Colchester. All of which Julie denied ever happened.
Why was Julie going to Colchester from Goldhanger ? To get the train back to London ?
Thought Jeremy would at least give her a lift to Colchester. She had travelled all that way to see him.
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Why was Julie going to Colchester from Goldhanger ? To get the train back to London ?
Thought Jeremy would at least give her a lift to Colchester. She had travelled all that way to see him.
The reason for Julie going to Colchester from Goldhanger is neither here nor there. Witham would PROBABLY have been her nearest train station, but that aside, most girls like shopping. Colchester was a good place to do it. Her mother lived in Colchester. She'd been to school in Colchester so there was the likelihood of her having friends there. If Jeremy had taken her in it would have been necessary for him to go back and pick her up again.
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The reason for Julie going to Colchester from Goldhanger is neither here nor there. Witham would PROBABLY have been her nearest train station, but that aside, most girls like shopping. Colchester was a good place to do it. Her mother lived in Colchester. She'd been to school in Colchester so there was the likelihood of her having friends there. If Jeremy had taken her in it would have been necessary for him to go back and pick her up again.
It's not neither here or there. Bamber needs a reason or he won't be believed. No one believes his reason why he brought the bike over just two days before the massacre.
So Julie went to visit Jeremy so she could go shopping on her own. Under the bright lights of Colchester shopping centre. Prefer Oxford Street myself, which was closer for Julie.
Nice of Jeremy to let her cycle and get the train there after she came to visit him.
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It's not neither here or there. Bamber needs a reason or he won't be believed. No one believes his reason why he brought the bike over just two days before the massacre.
So Julie went to visit Jeremy so she could go shopping on her own. Under the bright lights of Colchester shopping centre. Prefer Oxford Street myself, which was closer for Julie.
Nice of Jeremy to let her cycle and get the train there after she came to visit him.
Did Jeremy not say, that in HIS opinion, the relationship was in decline? Even if it wasn't, they'd probably got past that first loved up glow and in any case, time away from Goldhanger would only be a few hours out of a weekend. Of course, there were other ways of her getting to Colchester -to catch up with family, shop/lunch/gossip with girl friends, but they may have proved complicated ie taking a train from Witham.
Colchester is a charming, historic town, Britains oldest recorded. Given the choice of Colchester or Oxford St, I'd take Colchester every time.
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Quite simple really, she was working.
In Julie's diary entry dated 7th August 1985, she refers to the conversation she had with Jeremy at 5.40am on the morning of the murders where he tells her, "don't go to work, a panda car will pick you up".
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=255.msg4231#msg4231
As far as the bike was concerned, the story offered by Jeremy was that it was brought to the house in Goldhanger so that Julie could cycle from Goldhanger to Toleshunt D'arcy, leaving the bike at the Red Lion Pub. She would then get the Osbourne's bus which runs from Tollesbury to Colchester. All of which Julie denied ever happened.
Yes I am aware of JM's WS stating that JB told her not to go to work but what sort of work was she doing on 7th Aug? After CC's party in London on the Saturday, JM returned to Goldhanger with JB. JB then dropped JM off at Chelmsford station early Sun eve and JM returned to London. Uni/colleges and schools would have broken up by then so what work was JM doing?
JB said in his WS that JM said she would like to have a bike to get around on but that was said the previous summer. Unless she was really into cycling I would say Chelmsford and Colchester would have been a bit of a trek on a bike:
GH to Colchester = 13.8 miles 0.37 min by car
GH to Chelmsford = 15.1miles 0.34 min by car
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As far as I am aware it was not exactly a racing get away bike. A photo might have been useful. But as it was not proved to have anything to do with the murders anyway, the fact that it was bought over for Julie to use could well have been true .
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As far as I am aware it was not exactly a racing get away bike. A photo might have been useful. But as it was not proved to have anything to do with the murders anyway, the fact that it was bought over for Julie to use could well have been true .
Sit up and beg 8(0(*
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Yes I am aware of JM's WS stating that JB told her not to go to work but what sort of work was she doing on 7th Aug? After CC's party in London on the Saturday, JM returned to Goldhanger with JB. JB then dropped JM off at Chelmsford station early Sun eve and JM returned to London. Uni/colleges and schools would have broken up by then so what work was JM doing?
JB said in his WS that JM said she would like to have a bike to get around on but that was said the previous summer. Unless she was really into cycling I would say Chelmsford and Colchester would have been a bit of a trek on a bike:
GH to Colchester = 13.8 miles 0.37 min by car
GH to Chelmsford = 15.1miles 0.34 min by car
That is a long way for Julie to cycle.
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That is a long way for Julie to cycle.
But three/four miles to the Red Lion pub at D'Arcy, where she could leave the bike, isn't.
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That is a long way for Julie to cycle.
She doesn't look particularly active to me then or now so maybe.
I would like to know what JM's plans were for the summer of '85 pre tragedy? She was a full-time student at that time. Her WS said she always had hol jobs. In her WS of 8th Aug she says JB told her not to go to work. Where was she working? The previous summer she had spent at GH?
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When interviewed Jeremy Bamber after a bit of obfuscation admitted that he brought the bicycle over to his cottage "a few days before the murders". How strange then that in the months preceding, Bamber told JM he might use one to ride to WHF and kill his family.
June Bamber's bicycle parked outside the kitchen, and the open window through which JB is alleged to have left WHF...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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She doesn't look particularly active to me then or now so maybe.
I would like to know what JM's plans were for the summer of '85 pre tragedy? She was a full-time student at that time. Her WS said she always had hol jobs. In her WS of 8th Aug she says JB told her not to go to work. Where was she working? The previous summer she had spent at GH?
Maybe she was a look out.
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When interviewed Jeremy Bamber after a bit of obfuscation admitted that he brought the bicycle over to his cottage "a few days before the murders". How strange then that in the months preceding, Bamber told JM he might use one to ride to WHF and kill his family.
June Bamber's bicycle parked outside the kitchen, and the open window through which JB is alleged to have left WHF...
Sounds pretty straightforward to me:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1220
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1222
JM was a full-time student. She spent the hols at GH. JB was working at WHF. GH is a sleepy village and a bike was a means for JM getting out and about eg Maldon is 4.7 miles away. I think I'm right in saying JM didn't have a driving licence and therefore unable to drop JB off at WHF and have his wheels for the day?
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Maybe she was a look out.
No maybe about that!
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When interviewed Jeremy Bamber after a bit of obfuscation admitted that he brought the bicycle over to his cottage "a few days before the murders". How strange then that in the months preceding, Bamber told JM he might use one to ride to WHF and kill his family.
June Bamber's bicycle parked outside the kitchen, and the open window through which JB is alleged to have left WHF...
Forget about Jeremy not being seen dead on the bike. I'm not sure Julie would either.
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Sounds pretty straightforward to me:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1220
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1222
JM was a full-time student. She spent the hols at GH. JB was working at WHF. GH is a sleepy village and a bike was a means for JM getting out and about eg Maldon is 4.7 miles away. I think I'm right in saying JM didn't have a driving licence and therefore unable to drop JB off at WHF and have his wheels for the day?
I guess JM didn't have a driving licence otherwise JB would have considered giving her June's car and not given it to JM's mother, Mary Mugford?
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The following link opens up a 1985 calendar:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1985&country=9
Schools normally break up around the end of the third or fourth week of July for the six week summer holiday returning around the beginning of September. Most universities finish around mid June and restart late September. I believe JM was a full-time student at this time and during previous hols she had spent much time at GH with JB. Had the tragedy at WHF not have occurred and the relationship no doubt rumbled on until it eventually fizzled out, did she plan to spend the summer at GH hence June's bike brought from WHF for her use? It seems to me the pair were still an item pre-tragedy but maybe JB had it at the back of his mind he was going to call time on the relationship when it suited. I'm sure we've all done that ie with someone and quite happy short to medium term but don't see yourself sharing your dotage with that person.
We know JM had undertaken some work experience in a school which she found difficult hence the need for sleeping pills but schools would be closed for the summer hol. Or was she involved in some sort of summer camp or after school club etc? I don't think these were around 1985?
JM moved house late Aug/early Sep. She also intended taking a hol to Malta with JB which he shelved due to other commitments. The plan was then for JM to go with Liz.
What work commitments did JM have on 7th August when JB phoned and said "don't go to work the police car is picking you up"?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1012
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Your obsessed with Julie's work... is it that important?
To put your overactive mind at rest, it was probably the part-time playleader's job which she took on either as part of her coursework or simply for experience of dealing with young children. I think the WHF incident and Jeremy Bamber's involvement in it had disturbed Julie so much that she had difficulty in keeping the job going. Hence his payment of 2 x £400 cheques to support her after the murders - "expenses" as he called it, or "pay-off" according to her.
As her friends were also asleep in the Lewisham flat when he rang that morning, maybe they had similar work experience to go to.
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Your obsessed with Julie's work... is it that important?
To put your overactive mind at rest, it was probably the part-time playleader's job which she took on either as part of her coursework or simply for experience of dealing with young children. I think the WHF incident and Jeremy Bamber's involvement in it had disturbed Julie so much that she had difficulty in keeping the job going. Hence his payment of 2 x £400 cheques to support her after the murders - "expenses" as he called it, or "pay-off" according to her.
As her friends were also asleep in the Lewisham flat when he rang that morning, maybe they had similar work experience to go to.
It's only important in terms of trying to get a handle on whether JM would have a need for the bike if she was spending time at GH during the summer hols.
Yes I think I read she had some role as a part-time play leader or similar but these things normally shut up shop during the summer hols. They may be available now during the summer hols as more parents work full-time but I'm not so sure they existed 30 years ago? Yes SB was at the flat too. Her family home was in Leeds. She had a boyfriend in London.
One cheque for £400 was in respect of a hol JB was due to take with JM but post tragedy had other commitments. It was also a 21st birthday gift. The other £400 I don't know I think it was in respect of time JM had off for funerals etc. Depends which way you look at it I guess: nice gestures or sort of blood money/pay off.
Mushy Sproutmas:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1033.msg208177#msg208177
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Unless primary schools had shorter holidays. Might have been in a kindergarten where working mothers left their pre-school kids, or maybe a waitressing job. London could have been more advanced with child-care provision in the 80's than the rest of us in the sticks.
Yes I've seen the message, but no sign of any impending submission or new pro-bono lawyer recruited.
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When interviewed Jeremy Bamber after a bit of obfuscation admitted that he brought the bicycle over to his cottage "a few days before the murders". How strange then that in the months preceding, Bamber told JM he might use one to ride to WHF and kill his family.
June Bamber's bicycle parked outside the kitchen, and the open window through which JB is alleged to have left WHF...
Or she could have been telling porky pies. Helping the police to get their man because they did not have enough evidence. After all it took 32 interviews to get to the "truth" She said she knew on the night he had committed the murders so if true the she have been prosecuted for perverting the course of justice. How could she go to the morgue allegedly knowing what she did.
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Julie in her WS says she had 'not previously asked him for a bike'. Although she 'might have suggested it would be useful the previous summer'.
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Or she could have been telling porky pies. Helping the police to get their man because they did not have enough evidence. After all it took 32 interviews to get to the "truth" She said she knew on the night he had committed the murders so if true the she have been prosecuted for perverting the course of justice. How could she go to the morgue allegedly knowing what she did.
If it takes 32 interviews, that's what it takes.
Her WS is very long. She was the main witness. In such a serious trial everything has to be right. So it's not going to be done in one interview.
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If it takes 32 interviews, that's what it takes.
Her WS is very long. She was the main witness. In such a serious trial everything has to be right. So it's not going to be done in one interview.
A stark contrast with the length of JB's WS's and interviews. Certainly nothing like 32!
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His interviews are riddled with obfuscation and no comments... things JB said because he'd something to hide and was irked at being rumbled by Julie, don't you think?
Julie had a long story to tell, one that she'd bottled up for months and the police had to make sure that the investigation didn't go pear-shaped a second time... simple!
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His interviews are riddled with obfuscation and no comments... things JB said because he'd something to hide and was irked at being rumbled by Julie, don't you think?
Julie had a long story to tell, one that she'd bottled up for months and the police had to make sure that the investigation didn't go pear-shaped a second time... simple!
Absolutely they did, Myster. Desperate in fact, I imagine. Would have been interesting to have been the proverbial fly on wall to see how those many conversations went.
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His interviews are riddled with obfuscation and no comments... things JB said because he'd something to hide and was irked at being rumbled by Julie, don't you think?
Julie had a long story to tell, one that she'd bottled up for months and the police had to make sure that the investigation didn't go pear-shaped a second time... simple!
EP lied. They said "I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?" This was a lie. The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1258
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
If the police were deliberately and knowingly misleading JB, which JB was no doubt aware of, then I think his behaviour during his interviews was understandable.
Long story or tall story 8(0(*
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EP lied. They said "I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?" This was a lie. The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1258
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
If the police were deliberately and knowingly misleading JB, which JB was no doubt aware of, then I think his behaviour during his interviews was understandable.
Long story or tall story 8(0(*
But the police didn't mention the pathologist - I suspect they were talking about the silencer.
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But the police didn't mention the pathologist - I suspect they were talking about the silencer.
Can you point me in the direction of where in JB's police interviews they make ref to the silencer in terms of the so-called blood evidence? I can't see where they make ref to this. Understandable perhaps if this 'evidence' was fabricated!?
Page 50 - JB's police interviews:
Page 50 the police make ref to SC being unable to kill herself due to two shots. They claim either or both would prove fatal. This is a lie or misleading, or both, as it contradicts with the pathological evidence.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1304
Extract CoA doc - pathological evidence:
45. Sheila Caffell was also dressed in her nightwear and bare-footed. She had received two contact or near contact bullet wounds to her throat. The higher of the two wounds would have killed her almost instantaneously. The lower of the two would have been a fatal injury but not one where death would have occurred immediately and a person having suffered such an injury may have been able to stand up and walk around for a little time. The lack of heavy blood staining to Sheila Caffell's nightdress suggested that this had not happened here. The lower of the two injuries must have been the first since it had led to haemorrhaging inside the neck and this would not have occurred to the same extent if the other wound, which would have been immediately fatal, had preceded it. Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle.
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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She doesn't look particularly active to me then or now so maybe.
I would like to know what JM's plans were for the summer of '85 pre tragedy? She was a full-time student at that time. Her WS said she always had hol jobs. In her WS of 8th Aug she says JB told her not to go to work. Where was she working? The previous summer she had spent at GH?
Julie had a part time job as a playleader.
She was unable to keep the job the weeks after the murder.
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Julie had a part time job as a playleader.
She was unable to keep the job the weeks after the murder.
*&(+(+
Do you have a source? Is it Wilkes' book? I think I recall reading it in there now you have prompted my memory.
So unless JM was going to spend time at JB's at the w.e not much need for the bike? Unless of course they were planning on romantic cycle rides around the Essex countryside complete with picnic? I do recall in Wilkes' book JB was fond of cycling around Norfolk when he was at boarding school? Did JB have a bike of his own at GH? If so why would he need June's?
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Why would he need June's bike?... Isn't it obvious? Other than to annoy her by circling around, it was an effective way to reach WHF in the middle of the night without being seen.
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Why splash money out on a new bike, when he could get a freebie as he did with his cottage, car, petrol, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.
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Why would he need June's bike?... Isn't it obvious? Other than to annoy her by circling around, it was an effective way to reach WHF in the middle of the night without being seen.
I maintain a more effective way of operating covertly would be by foot?
Was it proved that JB didn't already own a bike of his own?
Perhaps he was planning a romantic cycle ride/picnic with JM one w.e? It was summer after all 8)-)))
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Why splash money out on a new bike, when he could get a freebie as he did with his cottage, car, petrol, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.
Perhaps he didn't need to splash out on a new bike if he already owned one?
The cottage, car, petrol, telephone rental, etc was part of his remuneration package for working full-time at WHF/N & J Bamber Ltd and a director at OCP. It was calculated at 18k - 20k pa. They were not freebies.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1210
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Why splash money out on a new bike, when he could get a freebie as he did with his cottage, car, petrol, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.
Surely all farm workers live in tied cottages and it isn't unreasonable for the boss's son to get a few "extras". Was there perhaps, a little coercion on Neville's part to entice Jeremy to work on the farm or do you think Jeremy demanded that Nevillelet go one of his farmhands in order to allow Jeremy his own home?
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I maintain a more effective way of operating covertly would be by foot?
Was it proved that JB didn't already own a bike of his own?
Perhaps he was planning a romantic cycle ride/picnic with JM one w.e? It was summer after all 8)-)))
Perhaps he didn't need to splash out on a new bike if he already owned one?
The cottage, car, petrol, telephone rental, etc was part of his remuneration package for working full-time at WHF/N & J Bamber Ltd and a director at OCP. It was calculated at 18k - 20k pa. They were not freebies.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1210 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1210)
Why would he bring a bike for Julie whether it was for part-cycling to work or for this airy-fairy picnic idea of yours, when the relationship was almost over and he wanted out?
You might not regard them as freebies, but I certainly do! How did he get to London for night club jaunts, trips to Colchester or other places, for going wind-surfing - recreational activities nothing to do with work at WHF?
And why do you always reply to my answers with yet more questions?... at this rate we could be here as long as the McCannites!
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Why would he bring a bike for Julie whether it was for part-cycling to work or for this airy-fairy picnic idea of yours, when the relationship was almost over and he wanted out?
You might not regard them as freebies, but I certainly do! How did he get to London for night club jaunts, trips to Colchester or other places, for going wind-surfing - recreational activities nothing to do with work at WHF?
And why do you always reply to my answers with yet more questions?... at this rate we could be here as long as the McCannites!
Myster, you give the impression that a "mere" farmworker has no entitlement to London jaunts, trips to Colchester, wind surfing activities, or any recreational activities not connected with his work at WHF. As to borrowing the bike, perhaps he thought to make life in Goldhanger so difficult for her that Julie would decide for herself that she wanted out.
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Surely all farm workers live in tied cottages and it isn't unreasonable for the boss's son to get a few "extras". Was there perhaps, a little coercion on Neville's part to entice Jeremy to work on the farm or do you think Jeremy demanded that Nevillelet go one of his farmhands in order to allow Jeremy his own home?
I think Jeremy was a spoilt brat who got his money far too easily, and didn't want to be a farmer... simple as that. Maybe his parents did succumb to his demands initially for somewhere else to live other than the farm as a sweetener. A move for Sheila into his cottage could even be a reason for the argument that night, with Jeremy being turfed out, having to look for other accommodation. Seems odd that Nevill should have been in such a bad mood on the phone, when according to the family and Barbara Wilson he was normally a placid, easy-going person. I doubt that he lost his temper with Sheila, but could easily do so with Jeremy.
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Myster, you give the impression that a "mere" farmworker has no entitlement to London jaunts, trips to Colchester, wind surfing activities, or any recreational activities not connected with his work at WHF. As to borrowing the bike, perhaps he thought to make life in Goldhanger so difficult for her that Julie would decide for herself that she wanted out.
Lowly farm workers are entitled to go wherever they please in their leisure time, but I don't suppose they got a free car and free petrol to get there, as JB did.
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I think Jeremy was a spoilt brat who got his money far too easily, and didn't want to be a farmer... simple as that. Maybe his parents did succumb to his demands initially for somewhere else to live other than the farm as a sweetener. A move for Sheila into his cottage could even be a reason for the argument that night, with Jeremy being turfed out, having to look for other accommodation. Seems odd that Nevill should have been in such a bad mood on the phone, when according to the family and Barbara Wilson he was normally a placid, easy-going person. I doubt that he lost his temper with Sheila, but could easily do so with Jeremy.
Yeh, I can go with most of what you say, Myster..................however, can Jeremy really be blamed for being a "spoilt brat"? He didn't want to be a farmer so they fed him sweeteners to coerce him and once they'd hooked him, possibly threatened to take it away and give it to his sister -for nothing!!! If that didn't piss him off, the guy was a saint, don't you think? I'm more than inclined to agree with Larkin on this one, as in, give 'em half a chance -ya mum and dad, that is, and they undoubtedly will!!!!! It's quite possible that Neville had reached the end of his tether with Sheila -AND felt guilty for it- that night, but as you say, it could equally well have been Jeremy who caused it.
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Lowly farm workers are entitled to go wherever they please in their leisure time, but I don't suppose they got a free car and free petrol to get there, as JB did.
Amazing what some sweeteners can do, isn't it. Sadly, all mine do is make coffee more palatable. Still, one can't have everything 8)-)))
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Why would he bring a bike for Julie whether it was for part-cycling to work or for this airy-fairy picnic idea of yours, when the relationship was almost over and he wanted out?
You might not regard them as freebies, but I certainly do! How did he get to London for night club jaunts, trips to Colchester or other places, for going wind-surfing - recreational activities nothing to do with work at WHF?
And why do you always reply to my answers with yet more questions?... at this rate we could be here as long as the McCannites!
If the relationship was almost over why would he take JM into his confidence and share his dark secrets with her? He was probably happy for the relationship to rumble on until someone he deemed more suitable came along...enter Virginia Greaves. He was probably fond of JM but for whatever reason(s) didn't see her as long-term. Seems like that's the norm to me ie a relationship starts up and then it gets to the first anniversary and it either moves forward as both want the same things or it doesn't and it starts to drift apart.
The car/fuel was domestic, pleasure and business as most company cars/fuel were back then. It was tax advantageous for the employer and employee. Not so now.
I've been told my childlike curiosity is endearing 8(*(
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Lowly farm workers are entitled to go wherever they please in their leisure time, but I don't suppose they got a free car and free petrol to get there, as JB did.
JB wasn't a "lowly farm worker". He was the owners' son:
"A month after the murders, the Witham surveyor George Nicholls had become so impressed with Jeremy’s efforts that he told the representatives of The Henry Smith Charity, trustees of the farm, that Jeremy was fit to assume the tenancy, despite his age and lack of practical know-how. Nicholls repeated in court a year later: ‘in the last year or so he was getting down to being a farmer…’ Farm labourer Leonard Foakes, who’d worked for the Bambers for a total of thirty-six years, also observed that in the year or two prior to the tragedy Jeremy had grown keen. ‘He settled down quite well,’ said Foakes."
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I think Jeremy was a spoilt brat who got his money far too easily, and didn't want to be a farmer... simple as that. Maybe his parents did succumb to his demands initially for somewhere else to live other than the farm as a sweetener. A move for Sheila into his cottage could even be a reason for the argument that night, with Jeremy being turfed out, having to look for other accommodation. Seems odd that Nevill should have been in such a bad mood on the phone, when according to the family and Barbara Wilson he was normally a placid, easy-going person. I doubt that he lost his temper with Sheila, but could easily do so with Jeremy.
I totally agree Myster! I think the fact that he didn't bring home the last trailer points to a bit of a hissy fit. He said he asked his dad to bring in the last load, however - Nevill couldn't have picked it up until after 10pm because Jeremy's statement puts him in the farmhouse until after 21:45. Would he really go out that late to finish off a job Jeremy was 'supposed' to do? And what was Jeremy doing when he said he returned to the field at around 08:30? He took the trailer up there, but said he didn't bring it back???? There are lots of holes in this part of his story.
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I think Jeremy was a spoilt brat who got his money far too easily, and didn't want to be a farmer... simple as that. Maybe his parents did succumb to his demands initially for somewhere else to live other than the farm as a sweetener. A move for Sheila into his cottage could even be a reason for the argument that night, with Jeremy being turfed out, having to look for other accommodation. Seems odd that Nevill should have been in such a bad mood on the phone, when according to the family and Barbara Wilson he was normally a placid, easy-going person. I doubt that he lost his temper with Sheila, but could easily do so with Jeremy.
Why? Although I am sure allowances were made for SC's mental illness CP tells in her book how SC felt NB was disappointed in her in that she hadn't made more of her life. I've made my views known on the fact that as far as I am concerned SC should have been removed from the Bambers' care permanently when June became seriously depressed as a result of adopting her. This was never going to bode well for the future.
When you compare the two adopted siblings there's quite a contrast. SC had apparently been expelled from two schools. Although I don't think this was as serious as it sounds. The first school in Sussex it was agreed by all concerned that it was best that SC left due to lack of progress. The second school in Norfolk SC was expelled from on the last day of term for high jinx. Its unclear what qualifications she obtained from school and secretarial college if any. She then appears to have got a job as a hairdresser which she was sacked from. Having then completed a modelling course, which June funded, there's no evidence that SC was assigned any modelling assignments apart from the assignment in Tokyo. Other work included a shop assistant in a shoe shop, waitress, cleaner and glamour modelling but nothing long-term/permanent. At the age of 17 she had an unplanned pregnancy with a farmhand which resulted in a termination. She then had a further unplanned pregnancy with CC and another termination. Her marriage to CC was short lived. She had difficulty parenting her children and from time to time social services were involved. Perhaps her fragile mental state was aggravated further by her use of recreational drugs. Perhaps the final straw for NB was when SC decided she wanted to meet with her birth mother and in fact did so shortly before the tragedy. JB said in his WS that NB and June told SC and JB a few years prior to the tragedy that if they wanted to meet with their birth parents they should contact the adoption agency but I understand that June was very upset that SC did.
I have every sympathy for SC as I feel certain her mental illness and tragic life as above had its roots in her early life ie lots of abrupt changes in primary caregivers and June's mental illness circa 1959. Coupled with perhaps not being a very good 'fit' with the Bambers as in goodness-of-fit theory &%+((£
As far as I can see there's at least as much reason, if not more, for NB getting exasperated with SC compared with JB.