UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on December 22, 2014, 03:09:48 PM
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Some members continue to hold the mistaken belief that Dr Gonçalo Amaral was convicted of torture in the Joana Cipriano case. I suggest they read up on the facts outlined below.
Madeleine McCann police chief found guilty of falsifying evidence
(http://i.imgur.com/eG38XPQ.gif?1)
By John Bingham
23 May 2009
The former Portuguese police chief who accused the parents of Madeleine McCann of involvement in her disappearance, has been found guilty of falsifying evidence in another missing child case.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01404/Goncalo-Amaral_1404754c.jpg)
Mr Amaral has now been convicted of falsifying evidence to help cover up for three of his officers who were accused of torture.
He stood trial in relation to the investigation into the disappearance of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano from a village near Praia da Luz in 2004.
Her mother, Leonor, and uncle, Joao Cipriano, were convicted of murdering her, although her body was never found.
They later claimed they were tortured into confessing but police said that Mrs Cipriano tried to commit suicide by throwing herself off a staircase.
Three inspectors – Leonel Marques, Pereira Cristovao and Paulo Marques Bom – were cleared of torture after a seven-month trial at Faro Court in the Algarve.
The jury nevertheless found Mr Amaral guilty of falsifying documents to help cover for them.
A fifth officer, Antonio Nunes Cardoso, was found guilty of falsifying documents and was given a two-and-a-half year suspended jail sentence.
Outside court, Mr Amaral said he was not surprised by the verdict and blamed "political pressure".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5370361/Madeleine-McCann-police-chief-found-guilty-of-falsifying-evidence.html
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Feel free to make your points here and not on the secrecy thread. TY
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I really can't see the relevancy any more, particularly that now the dynamic Ms Wall has taken up the reins today and will be striving for a result.
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Sorry, sorry, I should have known better. But then I do know how easy it is to go Off Topic.
My only real concern about this is that Goncalo Amaral must have known what was going on in his Police Station.
I would be interested to hear opinions on how this apparent Torture went unnoticed by him.
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"The jury nevertheless found Mr Amaral guilty of falsifying documents to help cover for them"
So he must have known and been there. He knew Leonor had "thrown herself down the stairs". I notice he blamed Political Pressure in this case too.
Seems a lot of falsifying documents went on.
A fifth officer, Antonio Nunes Cardoso, was found guilty of falsifying documents and was given a two-and-a-half year suspended jail sentence.
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Sorry, sorry, I should have known better. But then I do know how easy it is to go Off Topic.
My only real concern about this is that Goncalo Amaral must have known what was going on in his Police Station.
I would be interested to hear opinions on how this apparent Torture went unnoticed by him.
My fault for continuing off topic.
We must always be careful to differentiate between proven fact and speculation. According to Leonor, Dr Amaral was present but since she was convicted of perjury in the case...
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"The jury nevertheless found Mr Amaral guilty of falsifying documents to help cover for them"
So he must have known and been there. He knew Leonor had "thrown herself down the stairs". I notice he blamed Political Pressure in this case too.
Seems a lot of falsifying documents went on.
A fifth officer, Antonio Nunes Cardoso, was found guilty of falsifying documents and was given a two-and-a-half year suspended jail sentence.
There is no evidence that he was there, according to some he was everywhere at once, quite the superman.
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"Mr Amaral has now been convicted of falsifying evidence ... "
This is a criminal conviction which carried with it a suspended jail sentence. I think it is a very big issue indeed as it proves he is a liar who is prepared to lie under oath in a court of law.
If he had not already resigned from the PJ before his guilt was determined ... would he have been compelled to?
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Some people for very obvious reasons want to hang various crimes on Amaral's back.
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Some people for very obvious reasons want to hang various crimes on Amaral's back.
Futile waste of time - changes nothing
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My fault for continuing off topic.
We must always be careful to differentiate between proven fact and speculation. According to Leonor, Dr Amaral was present but since she was convicted of perjury in the case...
Cipriano has lied in this case, so her testimony has no value.
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There is no evidence that he was there, according to some he was everywhere at once, quite the superman.
So the three officers were cleared of torture...but amaral falsified the records....why would he falsify records if they were not guilty.
The court accepts that cipriano was tortured whilst in police custody but were unable to identify those responsible. the mere fact that amaral felt he needed to commit a crime shows the PJ were as guilty as sin......the fact that amaral was not convicted of torture does not mean he was not involved.
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There is no evidence that he was there, according to some he was everywhere at once, quite the superman.
Why is this topic in here when there is a sub-forum for Joana?
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I think most who have followed events carefully will be aware that Amaral was not, directly, implicated in torture, unlike his friend Tavares Almeidas, who was given a suspended sentence for the torture of bastindado (but not from the Madeleine investigation).
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There is no evidence that he was there, according to some he was everywhere at once, quite the superman.
Ah so he wrote/made up his notes from hearsay. I wonder where and who he got such accurate info from.
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Why is this topic in here when there is a sub-forum for Joana?
It's in the Thread Title. And was Amaral a suitable person to be Coordinating The McCann Case?
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It's in the Thread Title. And was Amaral a suitable person to be Coordinating The McCann Case?
Obviously his superiors thought so at the time.
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Obviously his superiors thought so at the time.
A bit odd, though, isn't it? A leading investigator under investigation as of 4 May 2007 into the alleged torture of the mother of what would seem to be his only other missing child case, with the mother being charged within a few days of him taking over the case in potentially dodgy circumstances, with no concrete evidence?
Didn't they have anyone else to take over?
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My fault for continuing off topic.
We must always be careful to differentiate between proven fact and speculation. According to Leonor, Dr Amaral was present but since she was convicted of perjury in the case...
We all do it, John. And I don't mind if I get pulled up short. That's the thing, you see.
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We all do it, John. And I don't mind if I get pulled up short. That's the thing, you see.
I'll keep you both on the straight and narrow. 8(0(* The wife keeps me in order 8(8-))
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A bit odd, though, isn't it? A leading investigator under investigation as of 4 May 2007 into the alleged torture of the mother of what would seem to be his only other missing child case, with the mother being charged within a few days of him taking over the case in potentially dodgy circumstances, with no concrete evidence?
Didn't they have anyone else to take over?
He wasn't really. He was charged with signing off his subordinate's version of events when he wasn't in a position of having first hand knowledge.
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I'll keep you both on the straight and narrow. 8(0(* The wife keeps me in order 8(8-))
Get her to join up here. We need her. She'd soon sort Amaral and Guilty of Falsifying Evidence.
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He wasn't really. He was charged with signing off his subordinate's version of events when he wasn't in a position of having first hand knowledge.
So he wasn't actually in The Police Station during that nearly two days? So he never heard any cries of distress?
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So he wasn't actually in The Police Station during that nearly two days? So he never heard any cries of distress?
who heard Joannas cries of despair?
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who heard Joannas cries of despair?
are you trying to justify the savage beating
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who heard Joannas cries of despair?
Nobody actually, not even the neighbour upstairs, who admitted that she even heard the family using the toilet.
Strange Eh! &%+((£
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So he wasn't actually in The Police Station during that nearly two days? So he never heard any cries of distress?
He was apparently in his office waiting for information about... a fridge, at the time.
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He wasn't really. He was charged with signing off his subordinate's version of events when he wasn't in a position of having first hand knowledge.
He was arguido as of 4 May, however, that doesn't seem to mean much aside from stress. He was charged mid-June. I'm not sure what the actual charges against him were at the time.
Whatever they were, in which circumstances would it be considered normal for a leading investigator to take gardening leave (or at least be "promoted" to a different case of a different nature)?
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He was apparently in his office waiting for information about... a fridge, at the time.
Sound Proofed, was it? It doesn't appear to have been Leak Proofed.
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He was arguido as of 4 May, however, that doesn't seem to mean much aside from stress. He was charged mid-June. I'm not sure what the actual charges against him were at the time.
Whatever they were, in which circumstances would it be considered normal for a leading investigator to take gardening leave (or at least be "promoted" to a different case of a different nature)?
the Portuguese hierarchy werent stupid. they knew what was behind the allegations made by Correia who was paying him and their connection to the McCann machine. the whole thing leaves a very bad smell behind.
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It's in the Thread Title. And was Amaral a suitable person to be Coordinating The McCann Case?
No; neither fit to be a coordinator.
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No; neither fit to be a coordinator.
and was km fit to be a spokeswoman for missing persons, when she and her husband were responsible for leaving their children without protection and vulnerable ???
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deleted.
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. less.
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the Portuguese hierarchy werent stupid. they knew what was behind the allegations made by Correia who was paying him and their connection to the McCann machine. the whole thing leaves a very bad smell behind.
Was that why Dr Amaral lost his libel action in a Portuguese court against Correia? Did he have to pay damages as well as court costs?
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Was that why Dr Amaral lost his libel action in a Portuguese court against Correia? Did he have to pay damages as well as court costs?
As you know, libel is extremely difficult to prove in Portugal.
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As you know, libel is extremely difficult to prove in Portugal.
those words are going to come back to haunt you
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those words are going to come back to haunt you
Not in the slightest.
It is the findings of the judge that you fear.
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Not in the slightest.
It is the findings of the judge that you fear.
the case is nothing to do with me...I'm a spectator....I don't fear the judge...verdict or whatever...whatever happens will not affect me in the slightest
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I think most who have followed events carefully will be aware that Amaral was not, directly, implicated in torture, unlike his friend Tavares Almeidas, who was given a suspended sentence for the torture of bastindado (but not from the Madeleine investigation).
And we are supposed to believe Mrs McCann would be safe in his hands while answering her questions designed to implicate her in a crime she hasn't committed?
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And we are supposed to believe Mrs McCann would be safe in his hands while answering her questions designed to implicate her in a crime she hasn't committed?
Don't worry. about it. It was never going to happen. The British Embassy were only too aware of Justice Portuguese Style. They had seen it all before. Much shame to them in the past. But it wasn't going to happen on this occasion.
Justice was going to be seen to be done. What ever Amaral tried to do.
But Amaral just didn't see proper justice coming., beyond his own convoluted idea. He seriously needed The McCanns to be guilty because it would have bailed him out on The Cipriano Affair.
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Don't worry. about it. It was never going to happen. The British Embassy were only too aware of Justice Portuguese Style. They had seen it all before. Much shame to them in the past. But it wasn't going to happen on this occasion.
Justice was going to be seen to be done. What ever Amaral tried to do.
But Amaral just didn't see proper justice coming., beyond his own convoluted idea. He seriously needed The McCanns to be guilty because it would have bailed him out on The Cipriano Affair.
Why this continued focus on Amaral, a coordinator for the case before he was removed after complaining of interference in the case.
He wasn't the only person in the PJ who thought Madeleine died in the apartment, and still isn't.
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Why this continued focus on Amaral, a coordinator for the case before he was removed after complaining of interference in the case.
He wasn't the only person in the PJ who thought Madeleine died in the apartment, and still isn't.
Sorry, Stephen, I Posted a reply and then lost it. And I cannot be bothered again. But I do think that you are basically a nice man.
Deny me if you wish because I no longer much care what any of you think.
I do a job of sorts, and somehow hope that you will all understand.
I like this Forum which gives you all the right to express your opinions. But it also gives me the right of censure when some of you go too far.
Sit well with me, and don't offend me. And then we will all get on. And you all know by now of how I can be offended.
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Sorry, Stephen, I Posted a reply and then lost it. And I cannot be bothered again. But I do think that you are basically a nice man.
Deny me if you wish because I no longer much care what any of you think.
I do a job of sorts, and somehow hope that you will all understand.
I like this Forum which gives you all the right to express your opinions. But it also gives me the right of censure when some of you go too far.
Sit well with me, and don't offend me. And then we will all get on. And you all know by now of how I can be offended.
'Sit well with me, and don't offend me'
People express their views on here Eleanor, which as we know often don't tally.
However, it is not the express reserve of anyone including you to dictate what others may say, as long as people don't breach forum rules.
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Why this continued focus on Amaral, a coordinator for the case before he was removed after complaining of interference in the case.
He wasn't the only person in the PJ who thought Madeleine died in the apartment, and still isn't.
Chicken and egg situation.
As lead detective in Madeleine's case ... it was assumed he knew what he was talking about. Turns out that he didn't.
Until very recently there were those who really believed that he had 'an Ace up his sleeve' which would be delivered at a time of his choosing with devastating effect.
For a number of reasons, not least of which would be the offence of withholding evidence, I think people who gave that posturing any credence at all must be exceedingly gullible and will believe anything at all.
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Why this continued focus on Amaral, a coordinator for the case before he was removed after complaining of interference in the case.
He wasn't the only person in the PJ who thought Madeleine died in the apartment, and still isn't.
very few think maddie died in the apartment....a lot more think she MAY have died in the apartment and therefore disagree with amaral
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Chicken and egg situation.
As lead detective in Madeleine's case ... it was assumed he knew what he was talking about. Turns out that he didn't.
Until very recently there were those who really believed that he had 'an Ace up his sleeve' which would be delivered at a time of his choosing with devastating effect.
For a number of reasons, not least of which would be the offence of withholding evidence, I think people who gave that posturing any credence at all must be exceedingly gullible and will believe anything at all.
Where has the possibility of accidental death in the apartment been disproved exactly ?
Even Redwood admitted a few months ago, Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
So where does that leave the indications of the dogs ?
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very few think maddie died in the apartment....a lot more think she MAY have died in the apartment and therefore disagree with amaral
What ???
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very few think maddie died in the apartment....a lot more think she MAY have died in the apartment and therefore disagree with amaral
Well of course. Only one or two know what happened - the rest of us are just surmising.
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Why this continued focus on Amaral, a coordinator for the case before he was removed after complaining of interference in the case.
He wasn't the only person in the PJ who thought Madeleine died in the apartment, and still isn't.
But for his actions, his name would have been long since forgotten. In what may have been the last straw, he complained to a journalist about the UK police continuing to send information on potentially useful leads that they'd received, when - in his view - they should have concentrated on helping him nail the McCanns.
In that one outburst, he managed to create an embarrassing diplomatic gaffe, broke judicial secrecy and exposed his bias, thereby denying the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' about people who hadn't even been arrested and by the same token, his lack of interest in any other possibility.
It's not clear to me whether that outburst was the sole reason, either: 99.9% of leaks stopped when he left. There were only one or two leaks after he left, but nothing proves that journalists didn't already have them for a rainy day.
To be fair, he may not have personally been the direct or even indirect "source" for all or any of them, but they happened on his watch.
And then, of course, he chose to defend his honour by writing a book, acting as himself in a "documentary", gave numerous interviews defending his theory and generally kept himself in the media spotlight.
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Where has the possibility of accidental death in the apartment been disproved exactly ?
Even Redwood admitted a few months ago, Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
So where does that leave the indications of the dogs ?
There is no proof either way. If it turned out that there was a connection between her disappearance and the assaults on other children and that the offending escalated, then it can't be excluded that she didn't leave the apartment alive.
And without corroborating evidence and the methodical exclusion of all irrelevant explanations for the dogs' alerts, they are essentially meaningless.
ETA Messed up post.
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There is no proof either way. If it turned out that there was a connection between her disappearance and the assaults on other children and that the offending escalated, then it can't be excluded that she didn't leave the apartment alive.
And without corroborating evidence and the methodical exclusion of all irrelevant explanations for the dogs' alerts, they are essentially meaningless.
that she died there, and no wasn't taken Until a link can be excluded between the assaults on other children and Madeleine's disappearance, there is a possibility that smellyman or someone else
Surely the police's function is to find evidence that such a link exists, not to try and exclude one that may not exist in the first place..
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Where has the possibility of accidental death in the apartment been disproved exactly ?
Even Redwood admitted a few months ago, Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
So where does that leave the indications of the dogs ?
That's right..Redwood says maddie MAY have died in the apartment, amaral says she DID....can you spot the difference...
thedog's indications...meaningless as they were not confirmed
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Well of course. Only one or two know what happened - the rest of us are just surmising.
and some are making a decision based on the evidence
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very few think maddie died in the apartment....a lot more think she MAY have died in the apartment and therefore disagree with amaral
The CSI dogs disagree with you. Eddie doesn't alert to cadaver scent from a living person. He only alerts when he finds evidence of death! They follow their leads e.g. Prout case. The yard were digging for a dead body last summer. Amaral's theory is based on the investigation - they believe Maddy died in the apartment on the evening of 3 May 2007. Amaral was after Smithman seen carrying Maddy away from the crime scene and was removed from the case before he could properly investigate it.
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That's right..Redwood says maddie MAY have died in the apartment, amaral says she DID....can you spot the difference...
thedog's indications...meaningless as they were not confirmed
Key point: Madeleine died in the apartment is (chillingly) allied to sexual molester abuses children in bed ...
It has nothing to do with any dog alerts (dismissed as irrelevant by the shelved enquiry) and has nothing to do with any questions about the McCanns or any of their friends ...
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very few think maddie died in the apartment....a lot more think she MAY have died in the apartment and therefore disagree with amaral
On the balance of probability, there was a body in the apartment. Unless you think it was Joana it was only likely to be one person.
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Key point: Madeleine died in the apartment is (chillingly) allied to sexual molester abuses children in bed ...
It has nothing to do with any dog alerts (dismissed as irrelevant by the shelved enquiry) and has nothing to do with any questions about the McCanns or any of their friends ...
What are you on about? The investigation changed because of the dog alerts just like Eddie's alert in the Prout case.
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Surely the police's function is to find evidence that such a link exists, not to try and exclude one that may not exist in the first place..
Sorry, my post got garbled.
Yes, it'a two-way process, whether it concerns the dogs or not.
Eddie's alerts remain a possibility in the apartment, but then as he couldn't talk and numerous other irrelevant explanations exist, then the alerts might be more significant if all other possibilities had been methodically excluded.
The same with other indications, e.g., witnesses thinking they'd seen someone in the area; an unusual mast indicating a phone ping, or supposed discrepancies between statements.
If other witnesses are sure that x wasn't the person who others had seen, then there's a question mark. If a phone ping can be explained by a stronger signal from one mast in the capture zone when the other mast signal was weak, that's another question mark. If statements weren't verbatim (which they weren't), and bearing in mind the chaos prevalent at the time, that raises other question marks.
It's a jigsaw puzzle without the full, completed, image conveniently illustrated on the box. There are always going to be pieces that you leave to one side because you don't know where they may fit, nor whether they are part of the same puzzle or not.
Presenting leafy tree pieces as a logical place to fit in a blue sky because there's an unfilled space is a possibility if the full image is a painting by a modern artist, but that would seem less likely if the full image is a painting depicting natural scenery.
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The CSI dogs disagree with you. Eddie doesn't alert to cadaver scent from a living person. He only alerts when he finds evidence of death! They follow their leads e.g. Prout case. The yard were digging for a dead body last summer. Amaral's theory is based on the investigation - they believe Maddy died in the apartment on the evening of 3 May 2007. Amaral was after Smithman seen carrying Maddy away from the crime scene and was removed from the case before he could properly investigate it.
According to Grime, Eddie would also alert - at least - to blood from a living person.
The area being investigated this summer wasn't 5A, was it?
Amaral said that he was in the process of getting "members" of the Smith family back over to Porgtugal. However, he's not clear as to whether that included all the members of that family who'd previously made statements, or just Martin and his wife who had sudden doubts that the person may have been Gerry.
The other lead he said he would have continued to pursue was a fridge as he was convinced that the only explanation for the lack of a DNA match was that her body had been kept in the cold prior to being transported in the Scenic.
The previous triumph, led by Amaral & co., was in stating that a few specks of unidentified human blood had been found in the Cipriano fridge / freezer and somehow this was supposed to mean that Leonor and her brother had attempted to stuff her body in it. The idea that people do nick their fingers around a house at some point in time doesn't appear to have been considered as a logical possibility for some reason.
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On the balance of probability, there was a body in the apartment. Unless you think it was Joana it was only likely to be one person.
ridiculous statement.....total rubbish.......Grime certainly never said that. Just shows how little you understand
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That's right..Redwood says maddie MAY have died in the apartment, amaral says she DID....can you spot the difference...
thedog's indications...meaningless as they were not confirmed
You will find that most people believe Madeleine died in the apartment.
P.S. Don't get angry.
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We appear to be straying from the topic and although some posts are very interesting, I would be grateful if we could get back on track. Thank you
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ridiculous statement.....total rubbish.......Grime certainly never said that. Just shows how little you understand
Shows how little you want to understand.
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Where has the possibility of accidental death in the apartment been disproved exactly ?
Even Redwood admitted a few months ago, Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
So where does that leave the indications of the dogs ?
The bottle is always half empty as far as you are concerned ... never half full.
There is no proof Madeleine died in the apartment accidentally or otherwise.
The 'indications' of the dogs are exactly where they were left in 2007 ... in a file ... which Ricardo Paiva would actually have been justified in marking " Not Relevant" because according to their handler that is exactly what they were.
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The bottle is always half empty as far as you are concerned ... never half full.
There is no proof Madeleine died in the apartment accidentally or otherwise.
The 'indications' of the dogs are exactly where they were left in 2007 ... in a file ... which Ricardo Paiva would actually have been justified in marking " Not Relevant" because according to their handler that is exactly what they were.
Stephen: The bottle is half empty.
Brietta: The bottle is half full.
Alice: That bleedin' bottle's twice as big as it needs be
Happy Christmas.
Just sticking an S on the end of "Needs" I wouldn't want anyone o think I am being unfair
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The bottle is always half empty as far as you are concerned ... never half full.
There is no proof Madeleine died in the apartment accidentally or otherwise.
The 'indications' of the dogs are exactly where they were left in 2007 ... in a file ... which Ricardo Paiva would actually have been justified in marking " Not Relevant" because according to their handler that is exactly what they were.
Is that 0.499999999........... ? *&*%£
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Stephen: The bottle is half empty.
Brietta: The bottle is half full.
Alice: That bleedin' bottle's twice as big as it needs be
Happy Christmas.
Good Post.
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The bottle is always half empty as far as you are concerned ... never half full.
There is no proof Madeleine died in the apartment accidentally or otherwise.
The 'indications' of the dogs are exactly where they were left in 2007 ... in a file ... which Ricardo Paiva would actually have been justified in marking " Not Relevant" because according to their handler that is exactly what they were.
You better empty your glass as it's overflowing with BS. CSI dogs not relevant? Tell that to Adrian Prout or D'Andre Lane. New forensics up next.
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According to Grime, Eddie would also alert - at least - to blood from a living person.
The area being investigated this summer wasn't 5A, was it?
Amaral said that he was in the process of getting "members" of the Smith family back over to Porgtugal. However, he's not clear as to whether that included all the members of that family who'd previously made statements, or just Martin and his wife who had sudden doubts that the person may have been Gerry.
The other lead he said he would have continued to pursue was a fridge as he was convinced that the only explanation for the lack of a DNA match was that her body had been kept in the cold prior to being transported in the Scenic.
The previous triumph, led by Amaral & co., was in stating that a few specks of unidentified human blood had been found in the Cipriano fridge / freezer and somehow this was supposed to mean that Leonor and her brother had attempted to stuff her body in it. The idea that people do nick their fingers around a house at some point in time doesn't appear to have been considered as a logical possibility for some reason.
In fairness, Amaral couldn't quite make up his mind whether Madeleine was moved somewhere dead in the Renault or whether (a remark attributed by Amaral to Mark Harrison) her concealed remains were somewhere in close proximity to apartment 5a.
Or were rustled inside the coffin of someone else just before cremation ...
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On the balance of probability, there was a body in the apartment. Unless you think it was Joana it was only likely to be one person.
What do you mean by "balance of probability"? Based on what?