UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on January 01, 2015, 12:46:19 PM
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I have never read Jeremy claim he could not commit the massacre due to the barking dog/s. The only time I have read him refer to the dog was when he told the police to 'get rid of it/put it down' directly after the massacre, as he didn't want it 'messing up his stereo equipment'.
The only other mention of the dog was the police hearing a barking dog when the phone line was disengaged. Crispy was found cowering underneath a bed upon the raid teams entrance.
Would Crispy really prevent Jeremy from attempting and succeeding in carrying out the massacre as people have claimed ?
It was not a guard dog, may not have woken, or if it did wake may have recognised Jeremy and not made much noise.
It may have been put in another room at night time, behind a shut door. Dogs often are to prevent them charging around unattended. Jeremy letting the dog out after the massacre to make it seem like Neville had not gone to bed.
Or it may have slept with Neville & June, meaning by the time the shooting started it was too late for it to make any warning barks.
An awake Crispy is unlikely to do much once the shooting started. It was a small dog and not a guard dog. It would sense that Jeremy was firing a lethal weapon and it could be next. So would no doubt run and hide.
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who has claimed that?
And yes the dog was barking - so what is your point?
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People have claimed Jeremy could not have been successful in a massacre. Or would not have attempted the massacre because of a small dog inside WHF.
So was asking whether people believe this is correct.
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There were four risks which in my opinion were worth taking regarding the dog -
It would not wake.
It would wake and not bark.
It would wake and bark. But in the few seconds it took Jeremy to get upstairs, the barking would not have woken anyone.
The dog would not get in Bamber's way when the shooting started.
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People have claimed Jeremy could not have been successful in a massacre. Or would not have attempted the massacre because of a small dog inside WHF.
So was asking whether people believe this is correct.
I have never heard this claimed, Adam. The insinuation that someone might be put off their stride by one small dog is, IMO, simply ludicrous.
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I have never heard this claimed, Adam. The insinuation that someone might be put off their stride by one small dog is, IMO, simply ludicrous.
It has often been claimed on the Blue forum. The most recent claim made me create the thread on the Blue forum.
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It has often been claimed on the Blue forum. The most recent claim made me create the thread on the Blue forum.
MADE you, Adam? Was the choice not your own?
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Yes it was my choice to create a thread on the barking dog. Well done.
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The way I understand it was that Crispy normally slept in the master bedroom with June and Nevill as they were ordinarily resident in the farmhouse. The bedroom door was closed, possibly locked. Crispy might very well have detected an intruder and alerted June and Nevill to an intruder by barking, only the killer can answer this question.
When the door was opened and the shooting of Nevill and June started Crispy would have been terrified and hid in the only place available to her, namely, under the bed where she was later found cowering by the first police officers to enter the bedroom.
What we can say with confidence is that the dog which stayed outside would have barked and alerted to a stranger but not to Jeremy.
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The way I understand it was that Crispy normally slept in the master bedroom with June and Nevill as they were ordinarily resident in the farmhouse. The bedroom door was closed, possibly locked. Crispy might very well have detected an intruder and alerted June and Nevill to an intruder by barking, only the killer can answer this question.
When the door was opened and the shooting of Nevill and June started Crispy would have been terrified and hid in the only place available to her, namely, under the bed where she was later found cowering by the first police officers to enter the bedroom.
What we can say with confidence is that the dog which stayed outside would have barked and alerted to a stranger but not to Jeremy.
Thanks.
That sounds believable. Apart from the bedroom door being locked. They may shut it, but why would they lock their bedroom door ? That would make it hard for Bamber to commit the massacre. Having to smash the door in. There were no reports of bedroom door damage.
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People have claimed Jeremy could not have been successful in a massacre. Or would not have attempted the massacre because of a small dog inside WHF.
So was asking whether people believe this is correct.
It could be argued that Crispy (shitazu ?) may have acted as a deterrent in terms of alerting the victims to JB breaking in and moving about covertly. Of course if you buy Caroline's theory that JB never actually left WHF then this is unlikely to be an issue.
I thought I saw a dog basket near the aga in a soc photo? I think I may also have read that it slept near June? If it slept in the kitchen, near the aga, then I guess seeing a wetsuit clad JB might have caused a bit of a woof?
Obviously the dog was not considered dangerous in terms of NB or June giving it the command to attack so it would not have acted as a deterrent in that regard.
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The way I understand it was that Crispy normally slept in the master bedroom with June and Nevill as they were ordinarily resident in the farmhouse. The bedroom door was closed, possibly locked. Crispy might very well have detected an intruder and alerted June and Nevill to an intruder by barking, only the killer can answer this question.
When the door was opened and the shooting of Nevill and June started Crispy would have been terrified and hid in the only place available to her, namely, under the bed where she was later found cowering by the first police officers to enter the bedroom.
What we can say with confidence is that the dog which stayed outside would have barked and alerted to a stranger but not to Jeremy.
How do we know the bedroom door was closed, possibly locked?
I have a friend who lives in a secluded cottage. When she receives visitors, including myself, the dog (Labrador) goes berserk barking as soon as we pull up in the car. When her sons visit the dog doesn't bark. I have asked her whether this is due to scent, sound or something else and she seems to think the dog is familiar/unfamiliar with the sound of car engines. Would the outside dog at WHF, Bruce the Labrador, bark if JB approached WHF on June's bike either riding or pushing it as this would be an unfamiliar sound?
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We don't know whether it was locked, but I doubt it. As Adam said, it would have impeded JB's plan. Perhaps it's unusual to secure a bedroom door unless say, a burglar had broken into your property once before while you were asleep, so you became nervous of a repeat performance. I never lock my bedroom door, although that's just in case a succubus should pay a visit during the night. : - )
I've pointed out before that the labrador was many, many yards away on the opposite side of WHF to the entrance gate and window he entered... and no, I don't know the exact distance to the nearest millimetre. There was nothing to stop him getting off the bike at the gate and wheeling it up to the window, across grass if necessary.
Crispy would easily sniff out JB and keel over comatose... after all, he did call himself "Stinker"! 8(8-))
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We don't know whether it was locked, but I doubt it. As Adam said, it would have impeded JB's plan. Perhaps it's unusual to secure a bedroom door unless say, a burglar had broken into your property once before while you were asleep, so you became nervous of a repeat performance. I never lock my bedroom door, although that's just in case a succubus should pay a visit during the night. : - )
I've pointed out before that the labrador was many, many yards away on the opposite side of WHF to the entrance gate and window he entered... and no, I don't know the exact distance to the nearest millimetre. There was nothing to stop him getting off the bike at the gate and wheeling it up to the window, across grass if necessary.
Crispy would easily sniff out JB and keel over comatose... after all, he did call himself "Stinker"! 8(8-))
Often when grandchildren stay over the grandparents will offer to listen out for them should they wake to save the parents being on alert. Although I accept Daniel and Nicholas were 6 yoa and should have been sleeping through the night. I don't think most people lock their bedroom door or even have locks on the doors?
I've never owned a dog so know little about them but from general knowledge I thought they had amazing auditory and scent abilities so much so that wherever Bruce the Labrador was situated around WHF he would hear a bike/visitor long before he/she arrived?
There's a "stinker" and there's a "stinker". I imagine JB bathing in the 80's aftershaves eg Kouras by YSL. Or perhaps Aramis that was another fave in the 80's.
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We don't know whether it was locked, but I doubt it. As Adam said, it would have impeded JB's plan. Perhaps it's unusual to secure a bedroom door unless say, a burglar had broken into your property once before while you were asleep, so you became nervous of a repeat performance. I never lock my bedroom door, although that's just in case a succubus should pay a visit during the night. : - )
I've pointed out before that the labrador was many, many yards away on the opposite side of WHF to the entrance gate and window he entered... and no, I don't know the exact distance to the nearest millimetre. There was nothing to stop him getting off the bike at the gate and wheeling it up to the window, across grass if necessary.
Crispy would easily sniff out JB and keel over comatose... after all, he did call himself "Stinker"! 8(8-))
Have you got a source about the labrador was a long way away.
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Often when grandchildren stay over the grandparents will offer to listen out for them should they wake to save the parents being on alert. Although I accept Daniel and Nicholas were 6 yoa and should have been sleeping through the night. I don't think most people lock their bedroom door or even have locks on the doors?
I've never owned a dog so know little about them but from general knowledge I thought they had amazing auditory and scent abilities so much so that wherever Bruce the Labrador was situated around WHF he would hear a bike/visitor long before he/she arrived?
There's a "stinker" and there's a "stinker". I imagine JB bathing in the 80's aftershaves eg Kouras by YSL. Or perhaps Aramis that was another fave in the 80's.
WHF master bedroom had door locks visible on a couple of available photos although even these might have been blocked up with layers of paint and never used.
Depends on how old the Labrador was. Some older dogs tend to doze more and miss the sound of intruders, others don't... you can't generalise. Odd that the only barking dog mentioned that morning was the Shih Tzu inside the farm not the Lab outside.
More likely to be smarting Old Spice or smellier still, Lifebuoy carbolic.
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Have you got a source about the labrador was a long way away.
I don't offhand, adam. I read somewhere that the Labrador was kept inside one of the outbuildings or barns on the kitchen side of WHF, so well away from the gate on Pages Lane. Makes sense really for feeding and guard duty to be near the kitchen and most frequently used trade entrance.
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I don't offhand, adam. I read somewhere that the Labrador was kept inside one of the outbuildings or barns on the kitchen side of WHF, so well away from the gate on Pages Lane. Makes sense really for feeding and guard duty to be near the kitchen and most frequently used trade entrance.
As far as I know, Bruce was Ralph's relatively young black Lab. He was penned at night, but.....and I know that a lot of people disagree, I doubt if this was because he was a guard dog. My old man and I have both owned Labs, they're gun dogs and bred to please, but they aren't very vocal. Bruce might have been penned because he was a young, entire dog and not clean in the house (male dogs, even pugs, either eat it, wee on it or shag it) and he might also have loathed poor old Crispy and wasn't trusted not to try and kill her like an annoying rat.
Crispy slept on June's side of the bed.
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As far as I know, Bruce was Ralph's relatively young black Lab. He was penned at night, but.....and I know that a lot of people disagree, I doubt if this was because he was a guard dog. My old man and I have both owned Labs, they're gun dogs and bred to please, but they aren't very vocal. Bruce might have been penned because he was a young, entire dog and not clean in the house (male dogs, even pugs, either eat it, wee on it or shag it) and he might also have loathed poor old Crispy and wasn't trusted not to try and kill her like an annoying rat.
Crispy slept on June's side of the bed.
Arrghhh!! I've just broken my new year's resolution and looked on blue, and read something about an MBE. A truly awful person who I spent 6 bloody years of my life with has been awarded a CBE. A totally talentless tart who I tried, for MONTHS to teach Angi on the guitar.
The only clue I can give is that her real name is Feroza. And she used me in her book.
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Arrghhh!! I've just broken my new year's resolution and looked on blue, and read something about an MBE. A truly awful person who I spent 6 bloody years of my life with has been awarded a CBE. A totally talentless tart who I tried, for MONTHS to teach Angi on the guitar.
The only clue I can give is that her real name is Feroza. And she used me in her book.
Goodness gracious me!
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Goodness gracious me!
God..you make me laugh!!
Yes!! Her!!
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Arrghhh!! I've just broken my new year's resolution and looked on blue, and read something about an MBE. A truly awful person who I spent 6 bloody years of my life with has been awarded a CBE. A totally talentless tart who I tried, for MONTHS to teach Angi on the guitar.
The only clue I can give is that her real name is Feroza. And she used me in her book.
Don't worry, you'll be in the honours list one day... for services to puggery. 8((()*/
https://www.facebook.com/Pugl0ve (https://www.facebook.com/Pugl0ve)
... and if you play like slowhand Clapton, then you're my girl. 8(0(*
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Back on topic. Nevill was a magistrate and as such open to the risk of personal attack by some disgruntled nutter. The farmhouse was relatively isolated so I have no doubt that the simple act of routinely locking the bedroom would have afforded him and June additional security. My own father was also a farmer and a magistrate (JP) and he always locked his bedroom door.
There was no need to break the door down, Nevill would have opened it for Jeremy but not for a stranger/intruder.
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Back on topic. Nevill was a magistrate and as such open to the risk of personal attack by some disgruntled nutter. The farmhouse was relatively isolated so I have no doubt that the simple act of routinely locking the bedroom would have afforded him and June additional security. My own father was also a farmer and a magistrate (JP) and he always locked his bedroom door.
There was no need to break the door down, Nevill would have opened it for Jeremy but not for a stranger/intruder.
You think Jeremy got in through the bathroom window at 2am, and then knocked on the bedroom door ?
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You think Jeremy got in through the bathroom window at 2am, and then knocked on the bedroom door ?
Only Jeremy knows the answer to that one and he isn't for telling.
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Back on topic. Nevill was a magistrate and as such open to the risk of personal attack by some disgruntled nutter. The farmhouse was relatively isolated so I have no doubt that the simple act of routinely locking the bedroom would have afforded him and June additional security. My own father was also a farmer and a magistrate (JP) and he always locked his bedroom door.
There was no need to break the door down, Nevill would have opened it for Jeremy but not for a stranger/intruder.
I think NB would think it a little strange if his adult son, who no longer lived in the family home, was knocking on NB's locked bedroom door in the early hours. Assuming NB opened it and JB fired shots at close range (ballistics state the facial shots were within a few inches) it doesn't explain how NB's blood was not detected on the bedroom carpet as per the five samples that were tested. I don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom. I think he came up the stairs from the kitchen and SC, already in the bedroom, swung round from shooting June and fired at NB in the doorway/landing.
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I think NB would think it a little strange if his adult son, who no longer lived in the family home, was knocking on NB's locked bedroom door in the early hours. Assuming NB opened it and JB fired shots at close range (ballistics state the facial shots were within a few inches) it doesn't explain how NB's blood was not detected on the bedroom carpet as per the five samples that were tested. I don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom. I think he came up the stairs from the kitchen and SC, already in the bedroom, swung round from shooting June and fired at NB in the doorway/landing.
Not possible Holly, the distribution of the spent cartridges gives the plot away. Nevill was shot as he approached the bedroom door after getting out of bed by a gunman standing at that same door.
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Not possible Holly, the distribution of the spent cartridges gives the plot away. Nevill was shot as he approached the bedroom door after getting out of bed by a gunman standing at that same door.
Ballistics marked out the area shots could have been fired from as per the diagram below and it extended well beyond the doorway.
My scenario is entirely plausible and explains the fact that when FSS analysed five carpet samples taken from the bedroom none of NB's blood was detected. Imo NB was not in the bedroom when the shooting started. He came up from the kitchen and was standing in the doorway when SC swung round from shooting June and inflicted the two facial gunshot wounds fired within a few inches of NB's face. As NB fled SC fired a further 2 shots. One hit NB's shoulder which totally impaired his left arm ruling out any life and death struggle in the kitchen. The other shot resulted in a grazing to the shoulder.
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Ballistics marked out the area shots could have been fired from as per the diagram below and it extended well beyond the doorway.
My scenario is entirely plausible and explains the fact that when FSS analysed five carpet samples taken from the bedroom none of NB's blood was detected. Imo NB was not in the bedroom when the shooting started. He came up from the kitchen and was standing in the doorway when SC swung round from shooting June and inflicted the two facial gunshot wounds fired within a few inches of NB's face. As NB fled SC fired a further 2 shots. One hit NB's shoulder which totally impaired his left arm ruling out any life and death struggle in the kitchen. The other shot resulted in a grazing to the shoulder.
You obviously don't yet understand how the rifle ejected the spent cartridges as explained already by Mystery. To achieve cartridge distribution as depicted in your plan the gunman had to be standing just inside the bedroom facing Nevill who had just got out of bed. It can be clearly observed that the seven spent cartridges associated with the shooting of June all ended up on the rhs of the bed.
For your scenario to work all the spent cartridges would have had to have ended up near the chair shown at the bottom of the depiction.
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You obviously don't yet understand how the rifle ejected the spent cartridges as explained already by Mystery. To achieve cartridge distribution as depicted in your plan the gunman had to be standing just inside the bedroom facing Nevill who had just got out of bed. It can be clearly observed that the seven spent cartridges associated with the shooting of June all ended up on the rhs of the bed.
For your scenario to work all the spent cartridges would have had to have ended up near the chair shown at the bottom of the depiction.
Yes Myster (no Mystery) kindly explained that spent cartridges eject from the RHS of the rifle. Prior to this I stated that I am no ballistics expert. I don't believe you or Myster are either?
It is not my plan. I believe it was a plan drawn up by the ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher? As far as I can see he has marked out a shaded area where shots could be fired from. Whether this could be narrowed down further for each individual shot based on bullet wounds, spent cartridges and any other data I have no idea. It appears to me he is saying any of the gunshots could have been fired within the shaded area? The plan attributes cartridges 13 and 14 to June and yet these cartridges appear to be situated outside the bedroom/landing/stairs. As far as I am aware NB was the only victim shot on the landing/stairs.
Your scenario seems to be based on the bedroom door being locked with JB knocking on the door and NB leaving his bed (opposite side of main door) to answer it. JB then fired the facial shots at NB, said to have been fired at a distance of no more than a few inches, as he opened the door then the spent cartridges would eject to the right and land on the landing or the side of the open door. There are no cartriges at the side of the open door. And the cartridges on the landing seem to be attributed to other wounds eg June or NB's shoulder/arm shots.
I will need to look at the layout again of WHF as I'm trying to imagine JB standing outside the main bedroom with rifle and silencer and wondering if there was space for him to stand directly opposite or whether he would have needed to stand slightly to one side?
According to my farmer friends when a shot is fired with a semi-auto rifle cartridges can land within a few feet and don't necessarily simply fall straight to the ground.
My scenario of SC firing shots at June in bed while standing about a third way up from the bottom of the bed June's side and then swinging round to shoot NB as he came up the stairs from the kitchen to shoot him as he stood in the doorway appears entirely plausible based on the diagram and cartridge location.
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There's no evidence that the bedroom door was locked. If they were worried about Sheila's condition then maybe her parents left their door unlocked/ajar just in case she (or the twins) wanted them during the night.
Who said NB was shot on the landing or stairs?
The Anschutz ejects used cartridge casings to the right and forward at what looks something like 45 degrees to the rifle's length, as shown in this Youtube video... http://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=18s (http://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=18s)
Casings 13 and 14 refer to the second episode when two bullets were fired at June while she was lying on the floor, with the rifle pointing downwards by someone standing on the landing, just outside and facing the door... or even within the door opening. It's also possible that the assailant was standing in the region of DRH 3/4. Now imagine where the two ejected casings might end up after watching the video. They would first be directed downwards towards the floor, the carpet reducing their impact and tendency to travel very far. Which is why 13 stopped near the door jamb and 14 probably bounced down the short flight of stairs and came to rest where it was found on the lower landing.
(http://i.imgur.com/vN9biTj.png)
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There's no evidence that the bedroom door was locked. If they were worried about Sheila's condition then maybe her parents left their door unlocked/ajar just in case she (or the twins) wanted them during the night.
Who said NB was shot on the landing or stairs?
The Anschutz ejects used cartridge casings to the right and forward at what looks something like 45 degrees to the rifle's length, as shown in this Youtube video... http://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=18s (http://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=18s)
Casings 13 and 14 refer to the second episode when two bullets were fired at June while she was lying on the floor, with the rifle pointing downwards by someone standing on the landing, just outside and facing the door... or even within the door opening. It's also possible that the assailant was standing in the region of DRH 3/4. Now imagine where the two ejected casings might end up after watching the video. They would first be directed downwards towards the floor, the carpet reducing their impact and tendency to travel very far. Which is why 13 stopped near the door jamb and 14 probably bounced down the short flight of stairs and came to rest where it was found on the lower landing.
(http://i.imgur.com/vN9biTj.png)
John said he thought NB may have locked the door as John's father did who also happened to be a farmer and magistrate. Personally I think it is more likely the main bedroom door was ajar to listen out for the twins. Children are more likely to wake sleeping in unfamiliar surroundings and if SC was out of sorts June and NB might have assumed responsibility for the twins.
I thought I read NB was shot as he fled the bedroom and the trajectory was downwards? Perhaps I put my own interpretation on it and assumed the shooter was standing above NB on the stairs?
Anyway thank you Myster. I will take a look when I have more time. I thought we were going to give it a break until possible further developments? Eg books, CCRC submission etc?
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Doubt if any submissions are in the pipeline, hence the downbeat Christmas message. JB has had more opportunities with the CCRC than most, so his will be at the bottom of the pile. Maybe the new book if published in August will contain something you don't want to hear.
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The position of the spent cartridges reveal precisely who was shoot and where, no mystery at all.