Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: lordpookles on January 03, 2015, 02:24:01 PM
Title: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: lordpookles on January 03, 2015, 02:24:01 PM
I've been reading this blog lately and whilst it's clear the owner unequivocally believes the McCanns are responsible, which is at odds with my personal views as I do not have firm opinions one way or the other, it is one of the better blogs I have found on the Internet and he raises some points in this article I find interesting - particulary the phone calls.
Also if anyone knows of any blogs/articles, which they consider interesting, reasonably well written and whatever the particular bias of the author please feel free to post here. I'm finding it hard to hunt down good quality content.
Finally if you feel this has all been discussed ad nauseam please feel free to comment on the blog itself and what you think or know about the author(s).
Introduction: Dr Martin Roberts. Insight is a truly wonderful thing. It nourishes and advances those who are able to appreciate it. For the rest, knowledge is merely borrowed for the purposes of reference, not genuinely shared. Things are either what they are because we appreciate and understand what has been established, or they are simply taken on trust, on an ‘it is said by others’ basis.
For seven years past a watching international community has been witness to a growing clamour of borrowed knowledge regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, hearsay tearing repeatedly through the fabric of reason like a succession of tornados in America’s mid-west, and bringing us more recently to the most ludicrous of situations; one in which a UK police force is given a seemingly limitless budget, so as to review and pursue a case over which it has no legal jurisdiction, and in deliberate disavowal of the evidence collated by the original investigators. In an admitted collaboration with the UK government, they are acting ‘as if the abduction happened in the UK’ without first, or indeed ever, establishing whether ‘abduction’ happened at all.
It is at this point that I refer you wholeheartedly to the post that follows.
Besides being wonderful, insight is also scarce – so scarce in fact that, in all these seven years no one has truly been able to cut the Gordian knot that is the ‘abduction’ of Madeleine McCann, never mind cut it completely in two. Or three for that matter. For that we must defer to Himself. What he presents here is not ‘opinion’, coloured so as to conform to a context of allegiance, nor interpretation influenced by surmise. Here we have evidence, pure and simple - evidence conveniently shunted into a siding by all those who cannot bear to confront the truth, and largely undervalued by others unduly concerned with the incessant regurgitation of garnish so often first coughed up by ‘a source close to something or other’.
Law enforcement agencies, crime writers and Hollywood film producers are all perfectly aware that the crux of any crime resides at the point of commencement, when the perpetrator, however practised they may be, is most likely to have made a mistake. The disappearance of Madeleine McCann involved circumstantial criminals who did exactly that. To appreciate what these data are telling us therefore, it is necessary to discard the shroud that has been thrown over them in the intervening years and look afresh at what has been staring at us all from the outset.
How likely is it that two people can be independently mistaken about an open or shut situation? How likely is it that these same two people should independently, yet simultaneously, decide to ‘prune’ their respective cell ‘phone memories? How likely is it also that two different dogs, on two separate occasions, could show interest in different, yet mutually corroborating, scents, and at the very same loci?
These are the fundamental issues addressed here, and for which various bizarre, unrealistic, even childish explanations have been proffered over time – as knowledge for the undiscerning. If instead we open our eyes to another’s insight, it soon becomes apparent that the origins of, and explanations for, many of the reputedly paradoxical phenomena associated with the case of Madeleine McCann do indeed reside at the very beginning. - Martin Roberts
Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Should I so desire, I could lay before you, anomalies related to this case, by the score. As equally by the score, I could inundate you with unanswered questions. But that is not my intention here today. Rather, I present just three, but extremely important questions for your consideration.
But these three chosen questions are not exclusively for your perusal, they are in fact directed at what I shall call the McCann Establishment, or for ease here on in, the Establishment.
That the Establishment now includes the Prime Minister David Cameron, who as a result of pressure by Rebecca Brooks, pressure being a polite word for coercion, as coercion is for blackmail one must say, is for the intents of this post, quite academic.
As for the involvement of the Home Secretary, Theresa May, that involvement becomes a good deal less academic, given the Home Secretary's overall responsibility for the policing of the Nation. Granted that some of that responsibility is now diminished since the introduction of police and crime commissioners, a system laid bare to justifiable charges of nepotism, I easily add. But that is by the by and concerns us little, for there was no such office at the time of initiating a "review" of the Madeleine McCann case by DCI Andy Redwood and Scotland Yard's finest. Something, I think I can maintain, that is unique in the history of English policing.
But that uniqueness is far from alone, as we shall see.
Is it not unique, that in the case of a missing child, presumed dead by the investigating police force and for good reason, that when the very cornerstone of the McCann's claim for a case of stranger abduction, turns out to be a tissue of lies, but is then seemingly ignored by those charged with this nonsensical review?
The McCanns set the parameters.
Before we had even heard the name Madeleine McCann, the script had been written, distributed, and was being learned by rote, albeit to an embarrassing degree, by seemingly every member of the McCann's extended family. The source of which, and undeniable, Kate and Gerry McCann.
"The shutters had been jemmied and poor wee Madeleine was taken." echoed every family member, with unwavering similarity.
Only the shutters weren't jemmied, and wee Madeleine was not taken.
Cause and Effect
So let us look at such.
"The shutters had been jemmied" cause.
"and poor wee Madeleine was taken" effect.
I hardly need to say it do I? No cause, no effect.
It is that simple and so fundamental to the McCann's claim of abduction. No jemmied shutters, no abduction.
As simple as that may sound, it is in fact, of such profundity that it cannot, and should not, be ignored. The cornerstone for abduction, and all that surrounds it, is a house of cards. A house that took a shift years ago. The only thing propping it up now, is the litigious nature of the McCanns.
Now call me old fashioned if you will, but this bothers me. But it bothers me more, that this fundamental and crucial component of this case, not only remains unaddressed, but seemingly, is totally ignored.
To finish up this part of the post, there being two other fundamental issues I wish to address, let me try and apply some perspective to this staggering and blatantly obvious miscarriage of justice.
If our featured two were suspected of robbing a Post Office, and it's not by accident that I use a PO as an example, because, you may be surprised to know, there is no greater crime in the UK than making an unauthorised withdrawal from said establishment.
So if our two suspects, under questioning, uttered the kind of testament or set in motion testament such as we have witnessed, what might you suppose, the outcome would be?
Parts two and three will be delivered when and whenever, creativity and the will to write are pretty rare commodities for me these days.
But do bare in mind, should you come under attack, from whatever quarter: No jemmied shutters, no abduction. And also remember who set the parameters, within which, enabled the child to be "abducted," the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.
Part Two, The Deleted Phone Logs
Are they such an important issue you may ask? Well they were important enough for the McCanns to lie about them, so they must be.
That we have already ascertained in part one, the setting up with family members the case for abduction, the deleted phone logs, selectively deleted I must add, and at a time, the day before in fact, of Gerry McCann's announcement to the world that his daughter had been abducted. Via of course, the jemmied shutters that weren't
What follows, is the only section of this article where some parts are not provable, but given the circumstances, let us take a look at the situation circumstantially.
The speed, or should I call it indecent haste? (and being all the more suspicious for it) The indecent haste with which the McCann Machine (Government machine) rolled into action was, putting it mildly, quite staggering.
I think at this moment, I shall let the Portuguese coordinator of the case, Goncalo Amaral, take over the narrative. This on the 4th of May
GA: At ten in the morning, twelve hours after the disappearance, the British Consul to Portimão goes to the Department of Criminal Investigation.
We inform him of the actions taken up to then and the next stages being considered. He doesn't seem satisfied.
Someone hears him on the telephone saying that the police judiciaire are doing nothing. Now, that's strange! Why that untruth? What objective does he have in mind? Giving another dimension to the case? Perhaps, I don't know a thing about it, but this is not the time for conjecture; we have to concentrate on our work, of finding the little girl.
Why indeed?
A little later still on the 4th May John Buck, British Ambassador to Portugal, descends on the scene.
GA- The McCanns are put up with David Payne.
We want to search the accommodation of the family friends to try to pick up Madeleine's clothes, especially those she was wearing on May 3rd at 5.35pm when she returned from the day centre with her mother and the twins.
Evidently, this initiative is not widely supported. The British ambassador meets with the team directing the investigation. The political and the diplomatic seem to want to prevent us from freely doing our work.
GA- I'm sure this check is necessary.
JB- The clothes? Are you mad? if I understand you properly, you want to go into the apartment to take clothes to have them analysed?
GA- Yes. What's the problem? It's a perfectly normal procedure in cases like this.
JB- Of course, but with this media hype...I don't think I have ever in my life seen so many journalists....And I didn't come down in the last shower.
I leave you to arrive at your own conclusions regarding that little nest of vipers.
To the phone logs then.
To fully understand the importance of this clip, one has take into account, that having just fled Portugal, the McCanns feel free to tell all the lies they wish and to do so with impunity. Never realising of course, to just what degree the files of the investigation would be made available to the public once the investigation was shelved.
Gerry and Kate McCann's fury after 14 texts slur
Gerry McCann reacted angrily yesterday to claims he received a string of mystery texts the day before his daughter vanished. Police applied to Portugal's supreme court to seize his phone records after learning of the alleged messages. They claim Gerry was sent 10 texts from an unknown number 24 hours before Madeleine disappeared. And detectives say four messages arrived from the same mystery number the day after she went missing, according to court documents. But Gerry and wife Kate have dismissed the claims as "utter rubbish". A source close to them said: "They have had their phone records available for inspection for months. But the police never asked for them. And now they have formally asked, they have been refused. "Any suggestion of Gerry receiving 10 texts the day before Madeleine disappeared are utter rubbish. "He hardly used his phone during the holiday and most of the friends with them didn't even have mobiles. "The only time his phone rang was when work called and he explained he was on holiday. There are no mystery texts. Gerry has nothing to hide. It's yet more nonsense coming from Portugal." more
I haven't bothered with the second sheet that shows the final two calls. More on the deleted phone records from Paulo Reis, a worthy read.
So from whom, and what was the content of the fourteen texts messages that Gerry McCann selectively deleted and subsequently found the need to lie about?
Just one last question and then we shall move on. A question you might ask yourself for that matter.
Would Gerry McCann have the wherewithal to implement and carry out such hair-brained scheme as the one we have witnessed without the gears being set in motion by third parties of no little importance and influence?
Part Three, Cadaver Odour.
Disregarding the thousands of column inches that have been written on the subject. Disregarding the thousands of arguments for the accuracy of the dogs' alerts and to a lesser degree, the arguments against the importance of said findings, and quite shamelessly by some that, not should know better, but do know better, we have but a few things to consider.
Firstly, two irrefutable facts. No one had previously died in the McCann's holiday apartment, likewise nobody had previously met their end in the car hired by the McCanns.
Keeping in mind, that all that has been written about the dogs, for the purpose of this article, and for the sake of my argument, we shall ignore.
What we can't ignore however, are two simple facts, but by virtue of their simplicity, they do in fact become the most damning.
You may wish to remember, that the dogs alerted uniquely to things McCann without exception. On the other hand, you may choose to ignore these facts. It doesn't matter. And why doesn't it matter you may well ask?
It doesn't matter, because Kate McCann acknowledges the existence of both blood residue and cadaver odour, both in the hire car and on her own clothes.
The reasons for such we are asked to believe, range from rotting meat in the car (odour) to the transporting, however unlikely, dirty nappies of the twins. (DNA)
Regarding the cadaver odour on Kate McCann's clothes, what we are asked to believe is even more unlikely than the dirty nappies explanation. So unlikely in fact, it staggers the imagination.
The reason for Kate McCann's clothes smelling of cadaver, we are incredulously asked to believe, is that prior to the ill fated holiday in Praia da Luz, Kate McCann, as a part time locum in a general practice, came in contact with cadavers. Any number of them, depending on which source you read.
But that's not all we are asked to believe, she came into contact with said cadavers wearing her holiday clothes. And if you like that cake, I have some topping for it, she took Madeleine's soft toy, Cuddle Cat, along with her for the ride.
How hard to confirm or deny this, DCI Andy Redwood?
And of course, not only does Kate McCann acknowledge the existence of cadaver odour, but her husband too, Gerry McCann. Why else would he go to such lengths (America) to discredit the accuracy of the dogs?
And it was to such lengths he went, contacting lawyers in the US and quoting the Eugene Zapata case where the judge wouldn't accept as evidence, the alerts of the dogs.
How did that one work out for you Gerry McCann? Not too good when the Zapata eventually admitted to killing his wife and the subsequent revelations that the dogs were right all along.
How damning do the actions of the parents have to be? Madeleine McCann disappeared in the most controversial circumstances imaginable, and the last two people to see here alive, and statistically the most likely people to be involved in that disappearance, the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, are doing their utmost to explain or discredit the stench of death that surrounds them.
I'm sorry, not in my world. Madeleine McCann was not abducted.
For Brenda Leyland RIP
All issues mentioned here are searchable and verifiable.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2015, 04:04:14 PM
I've been reading this blog lately and whilst it's clear the owner unequivocally believes the McCanns are responsible, which is at odds with my personal views as I do not have firm opinions one way or the other, it is one of the better blogs I have found on the Internet and he raises some points in this article I find interesting - particulary the phone calls.
Also if anyone knows of any blogs/articles, which they consider interesting, reasonably well written and whatever the particular bias of the author please feel free to post here. I'm finding it hard to hunt down good quality content.
Finally if you feel this has all been discussed ad nauseam please feel free to comment on the blog itself and what you think or know about the author(s).
Introduction: Dr Martin Roberts. Insight is a truly wonderful thing. It nourishes and advances those who are able to appreciate it. For the rest, knowledge is merely borrowed for the purposes of reference, not genuinely shared. Things are either what they are because we appreciate and understand what has been established, or they are simply taken on trust, on an ‘it is said by others’ basis.
For seven years past a watching international community has been witness to a growing clamour of borrowed knowledge regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, hearsay tearing repeatedly through the fabric of reason like a succession of tornados in America’s mid-west, and bringing us more recently to the most ludicrous of situations; one in which a UK police force is given a seemingly limitless budget, so as to review and pursue a case over which it has no legal jurisdiction, and in deliberate disavowal of the evidence collated by the original investigators. In an admitted collaboration with the UK government, they are acting ‘as if the abduction happened in the UK’ without first, or indeed ever, establishing whether ‘abduction’ happened at all.
It is at this point that I refer you wholeheartedly to the post that follows.
Besides being wonderful, insight is also scarce – so scarce in fact that, in all these seven years no one has truly been able to cut the Gordian knot that is the ‘abduction’ of Madeleine McCann, never mind cut it completely in two. Or three for that matter. For that we must defer to Himself. What he presents here is not ‘opinion’, coloured so as to conform to a context of allegiance, nor interpretation influenced by surmise. Here we have evidence, pure and simple - evidence conveniently shunted into a siding by all those who cannot bear to confront the truth, and largely undervalued by others unduly concerned with the incessant regurgitation of garnish so often first coughed up by ‘a source close to something or other’.
Law enforcement agencies, crime writers and Hollywood film producers are all perfectly aware that the crux of any crime resides at the point of commencement, when the perpetrator, however practised they may be, is most likely to have made a mistake. The disappearance of Madeleine McCann involved circumstantial criminals who did exactly that. To appreciate what these data are telling us therefore, it is necessary to discard the shroud that has been thrown over them in the intervening years and look afresh at what has been staring at us all from the outset.
How likely is it that two people can be independently mistaken about an open or shut situation? How likely is it that these same two people should independently, yet simultaneously, decide to ‘prune’ their respective cell ‘phone memories? How likely is it also that two different dogs, on two separate occasions, could show interest in different, yet mutually corroborating, scents, and at the very same loci?
These are the fundamental issues addressed here, and for which various bizarre, unrealistic, even childish explanations have been proffered over time – as knowledge for the undiscerning. If instead we open our eyes to another’s insight, it soon becomes apparent that the origins of, and explanations for, many of the reputedly paradoxical phenomena associated with the case of Madeleine McCann do indeed reside at the very beginning. - Martin Roberts
Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Should I so desire, I could lay before you, anomalies related to this case, by the score. As equally by the score, I could inundate you with unanswered questions. But that is not my intention here today. Rather, I present just three, but extremely important questions for your consideration.
But these three chosen questions are not exclusively for your perusal, they are in fact directed at what I shall call the McCann Establishment, or for ease here on in, the Establishment.
That the Establishment now includes the Prime Minister David Cameron, who as a result of pressure by Rebecca Brooks, pressure being a polite word for coercion, as coercion is for blackmail one must say, is for the intents of this post, quite academic.
As for the involvement of the Home Secretary, Theresa May, that involvement becomes a good deal less academic, given the Home Secretary's overall responsibility for the policing of the Nation. Granted that some of that responsibility is now diminished since the introduction of police and crime commissioners, a system laid bare to justifiable charges of nepotism, I easily add. But that is by the by and concerns us little, for there was no such office at the time of initiating a "review" of the Madeleine McCann case by DCI Andy Redwood and Scotland Yard's finest. Something, I think I can maintain, that is unique in the history of English policing.
But that uniqueness is far from alone, as we shall see.
Is it not unique, that in the case of a missing child, presumed dead by the investigating police force and for good reason, that when the very cornerstone of the McCann's claim for a case of stranger abduction, turns out to be a tissue of lies, but is then seemingly ignored by those charged with this nonsensical review?
The McCanns set the parameters.
Before we had even heard the name Madeleine McCann, the script had been written, distributed, and was being learned by rote, albeit to an embarrassing degree, by seemingly every member of the McCann's extended family. The source of which, and undeniable, Kate and Gerry McCann.
"The shutters had been jemmied and poor wee Madeleine was taken." echoed every family member, with unwavering similarity.
Only the shutters weren't jemmied, and wee Madeleine was not taken.
Cause and Effect
So let us look at such.
"The shutters had been jemmied" cause.
"and poor wee Madeleine was taken" effect.
I hardly need to say it do I? No cause, no effect.
It is that simple and so fundamental to the McCann's claim of abduction. No jemmied shutters, no abduction.
As simple as that may sound, it is in fact, of such profundity that it cannot, and should not, be ignored. The cornerstone for abduction, and all that surrounds it, is a house of cards. A house that took a shift years ago. The only thing propping it up now, is the litigious nature of the McCanns.
Now call me old fashioned if you will, but this bothers me. But it bothers me more, that this fundamental and crucial component of this case, not only remains unaddressed, but seemingly, is totally ignored.
To finish up this part of the post, there being two other fundamental issues I wish to address, let me try and apply some perspective to this staggering and blatantly obvious miscarriage of justice.
If our featured two were suspected of robbing a Post Office, and it's not by accident that I use a PO as an example, because, you may be surprised to know, there is no greater crime in the UK than making an unauthorised withdrawal from said establishment.
So if our two suspects, under questioning, uttered the kind of testament or set in motion testament such as we have witnessed, what might you suppose, the outcome would be?
Parts two and three will be delivered when and whenever, creativity and the will to write are pretty rare commodities for me these days.
But do bare in mind, should you come under attack, from whatever quarter: No jemmied shutters, no abduction. And also remember who set the parameters, within which, enabled the child to be "abducted," the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.
Part Two, The Deleted Phone Logs
Are they such an important issue you may ask? Well they were important enough for the McCanns to lie about them, so they must be.
That we have already ascertained in part one, the setting up with family members the case for abduction, the deleted phone logs, selectively deleted I must add, and at a time, the day before in fact, of Gerry McCann's announcement to the world that his daughter had been abducted. Via of course, the jemmied shutters that weren't
What follows, is the only section of this article where some parts are not provable, but given the circumstances, let us take a look at the situation circumstantially.
The speed, or should I call it indecent haste? (and being all the more suspicious for it) The indecent haste with which the McCann Machine (Government machine) rolled into action was, putting it mildly, quite staggering.
I think at this moment, I shall let the Portuguese coordinator of the case, Goncalo Amaral, take over the narrative. This on the 4th of May
GA: At ten in the morning, twelve hours after the disappearance, the British Consul to Portimão goes to the Department of Criminal Investigation.
We inform him of the actions taken up to then and the next stages being considered. He doesn't seem satisfied.
Someone hears him on the telephone saying that the police judiciaire are doing nothing. Now, that's strange! Why that untruth? What objective does he have in mind? Giving another dimension to the case? Perhaps, I don't know a thing about it, but this is not the time for conjecture; we have to concentrate on our work, of finding the little girl.
Why indeed?
A little later still on the 4th May John Buck, British Ambassador to Portugal, descends on the scene.
GA- The McCanns are put up with David Payne.
We want to search the accommodation of the family friends to try to pick up Madeleine's clothes, especially those she was wearing on May 3rd at 5.35pm when she returned from the day centre with her mother and the twins.
Evidently, this initiative is not widely supported. The British ambassador meets with the team directing the investigation. The political and the diplomatic seem to want to prevent us from freely doing our work.
GA- I'm sure this check is necessary.
JB- The clothes? Are you mad? if I understand you properly, you want to go into the apartment to take clothes to have them analysed?
GA- Yes. What's the problem? It's a perfectly normal procedure in cases like this.
JB- Of course, but with this media hype...I don't think I have ever in my life seen so many journalists....And I didn't come down in the last shower.
I leave you to arrive at your own conclusions regarding that little nest of vipers.
To the phone logs then.
To fully understand the importance of this clip, one has take into account, that having just fled Portugal, the McCanns feel free to tell all the lies they wish and to do so with impunity. Never realising of course, to just what degree the files of the investigation would be made available to the public once the investigation was shelved.
Gerry and Kate McCann's fury after 14 texts slur
Gerry McCann reacted angrily yesterday to claims he received a string of mystery texts the day before his daughter vanished. Police applied to Portugal's supreme court to seize his phone records after learning of the alleged messages. They claim Gerry was sent 10 texts from an unknown number 24 hours before Madeleine disappeared. And detectives say four messages arrived from the same mystery number the day after she went missing, according to court documents. But Gerry and wife Kate have dismissed the claims as "utter rubbish". A source close to them said: "They have had their phone records available for inspection for months. But the police never asked for them. And now they have formally asked, they have been refused. "Any suggestion of Gerry receiving 10 texts the day before Madeleine disappeared are utter rubbish. "He hardly used his phone during the holiday and most of the friends with them didn't even have mobiles. "The only time his phone rang was when work called and he explained he was on holiday. There are no mystery texts. Gerry has nothing to hide. It's yet more nonsense coming from Portugal." more
I haven't bothered with the second sheet that shows the final two calls. More on the deleted phone records from Paulo Reis, a worthy read.
So from whom, and what was the content of the fourteen texts messages that Gerry McCann selectively deleted and subsequently found the need to lie about?
Just one last question and then we shall move on. A question you might ask yourself for that matter.
Would Gerry McCann have the wherewithal to implement and carry out such hair-brained scheme as the one we have witnessed without the gears being set in motion by third parties of no little importance and influence?
Part Three, Cadaver Odour.
Disregarding the thousands of column inches that have been written on the subject. Disregarding the thousands of arguments for the accuracy of the dogs' alerts and to a lesser degree, the arguments against the importance of said findings, and quite shamelessly by some that, not should know better, but do know better, we have but a few things to consider.
Firstly, two irrefutable facts. No one had previously died in the McCann's holiday apartment, likewise nobody had previously met their end in the car hired by the McCanns.
Keeping in mind, that all that has been written about the dogs, for the purpose of this article, and for the sake of my argument, we shall ignore.
What we can't ignore however, are two simple facts, but by virtue of their simplicity, they do in fact become the most damning.
You may wish to remember, that the dogs alerted uniquely to things McCann without exception. On the other hand, you may choose to ignore these facts. It doesn't matter. And why doesn't it matter you may well ask?
It doesn't matter, because Kate McCann acknowledges the existence of both blood residue and cadaver odour, both in the hire car and on her own clothes.
The reasons for such we are asked to believe, range from rotting meat in the car (odour) to the transporting, however unlikely, dirty nappies of the twins. (DNA)
Regarding the cadaver odour on Kate McCann's clothes, what we are asked to believe is even more unlikely than the dirty nappies explanation. So unlikely in fact, it staggers the imagination.
The reason for Kate McCann's clothes smelling of cadaver, we are incredulously asked to believe, is that prior to the ill fated holiday in Praia da Luz, Kate McCann, as a part time locum in a general practice, came in contact with cadavers. Any number of them, depending on which source you read.
But that's not all we are asked to believe, she came into contact with said cadavers wearing her holiday clothes. And if you like that cake, I have some topping for it, she took Madeleine's soft toy, Cuddle Cat, along with her for the ride.
How hard to confirm or deny this, DCI Andy Redwood?
And of course, not only does Kate McCann acknowledge the existence of cadaver odour, but her husband too, Gerry McCann. Why else would he go to such lengths (America) to discredit the accuracy of the dogs?
And it was to such lengths he went, contacting lawyers in the US and quoting the Eugene Zapata case where the judge wouldn't accept as evidence, the alerts of the dogs.
How did that one work out for you Gerry McCann? Not too good when the Zapata eventually admitted to killing his wife and the subsequent revelations that the dogs were right all along.
How damning do the actions of the parents have to be? Madeleine McCann disappeared in the most controversial circumstances imaginable, and the last two people to see here alive, and statistically the most likely people to be involved in that disappearance, the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, are doing their utmost to explain or discredit the stench of death that surrounds them.
I'm sorry, not in my world. Madeleine McCann was not abducted.
For Brenda Leyland RIP
All issues mentioned here are searchable and verifiable.
Total rubbish...neither Kate nor Gerry ever said the shutters were gemmied...and the rest is no better
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: lordpookles on January 03, 2015, 04:14:24 PM
Yes davel I know there are no accounts of them actually saying that. I guess the author is suggesting that the family members all repeated that they were jemmied thus indicating that this information came from the McCanns. It is reasonable to me to put this down to a case of chinese whispers perhaps...
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 03, 2015, 04:17:06 PM
Yes davel I know there are no accounts of them actually saying that. I guess the author is suggesting that the family members all repeated that they were jemmied thus indicating that this information came from the McCanns. It is reasonable to me to put this down to a case of chinese whispers perhaps...
It shows the article is totally unbalanced and written from a biased perspective in order to misinform
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2015, 04:30:59 PM
I'm not interested ...there is no confirmation that either Kate or Gerry used the word gemmied...that's a fact...not a story
The word jemmied has it's equivalents dave.
Do you remember this from a 'Trish' ?
"The kids were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut.
"Kate went back at 10pm to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open and Maddie was missing.
Kate came out screaming."
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2015, 04:47:20 PM
"The kids were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut.
"Kate went back at 10pm to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open and Maddie was missing.
Kate came out screaming."
we have had a whole thread on this but you have no doubt forgot..as LP points out....Chinese whisper...and that's not a chocolate bar with soy sauce
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Admin on January 03, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
From everything I have read over the last seven years about the wrongly described 'jemmied shutters', it is patently obvious that the McCanns didnt understand how they operated and in particular, could be easily lifted up from the outside at any time.
This doesn't surprise me in the least since most British holidaymakers in Europe are similarly disadvantaged.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 03, 2015, 04:55:20 PM
We only have Kate & Gerry's word that the window & shutter were open.
So, closed they were then.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2015, 04:56:59 PM
we have had a whole thread on this but you have no doubt forgot..as LP points out....Chinese whisper...and that's not a chocolate bar with soy sauce
I'm afraid dave, you will have to do a lot better than that.
A LOT BETTER.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 03, 2015, 05:24:02 PM
I didn't get beyond "no jemmied shutters = no abduction". There is such an absence of logic in that sentence alone, the rest hardly seems worth bothering with.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 03, 2015, 06:39:37 PM
I've only skim read it, I'm afraid.
There are already threads on here on the points raised.
- The shutters have been done to death as have potential entrances / exits / keys / locks..
- Amaral and Madeleine's clothes: I'm afraid that's yet another thing that I'm sceptical about in his account as the dog handlers had no problem getting something with Madeleine's smell on it. They were apparently offered clothing and the blanket, and they took the blanket. I can see no logical reason why the PJ should have felt "inhibited" about asking for the clothes that a missing child had been wearing that day...
- There is also a thread on here (possibly more than one) about Gerry's so-called deleted SMS messages. I and a few others remember Albym on 3A phoning the number and it was the Vodafone voicemail reminder number (at the time, as the number later changed). At least two of us posted the number here.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2015, 06:45:43 PM
'the jemmied shutters' was part of the fable made up to provide 'evidence' of an abduction.
Even from the paper who brought us the 'sardine munchers' headline
“There was no evidence of a break-in,” said Mr Mitchell (The McCanns’ spokesperson – Irish Independent, 25 October 2007).
“Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed.”
(b) Brian Healy Grandfather:
“Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone,”
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 03, 2015, 07:27:25 PM
One of the family members referred to their "chalet", and IIRC, another to their "hotel", so there was presumably some confusion in communication.
I don't see why an initial assumption that the shutters had been forced up from the outside in the general panic of the situation is somehow "proof" that no abduction occurred. Neither am I convinced by the credit-card demonstration of the door lock that is somehow meant to prove that no outsider got in.
If you're actually faking an abduction and the story is that they were jemmied, then why not just... erm, find an implement to leave marks of "jemmying"? Or take a knife or something and mess up the area around the door lock?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Admin on January 03, 2015, 07:32:19 PM
Confusion was the order of the day in those minutes and hours immediately following the child's dsappearance. No doubt the communications made to those at home were for the most part hysterical and incoherent so little wonder the true nature of events were lost on them receiving the calls.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: jassi on January 03, 2015, 07:38:06 PM
Confusion was the order of the day in those minutes and hours immediately following the child's dsappearance. No doubt the communications made to those at home were for the most part hysterical and incoherent so little wonder the true nature of events were lost on them receiving the calls.
I'm sure family and friends believed everything they were told at the beginning . Why should they think otherwise?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Admin on January 03, 2015, 07:40:23 PM
One of the family members referred to their "chalet", and IIRC, another to their "hotel", so there was presumably some confusion in communication.
I don't see why an initial assumption that the shutters had been forced up from the outside in the general panic of the situation is somehow "proof" that no abduction occurred. Neither am I convinced by the credit-card demonstration of the door lock that is somehow meant to prove that no outsider got in.
If you're actually faking an abduction and the story is that they were jemmied, then why not just... erm, find an implement to leave marks of "jemmying"? Or take a knife or something and mess up the area around the door lock?
Very good points made, Carana. These points, can only confirm that it was not a staged abduction.
Although they believed that the shutters were forced(not knowing, how easily they can be opened from outside) and that she had been abducted, they could not entirely rule out the other possibilities.............. Then how would they explain the damaged shutters and door, if she was found?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lace on January 03, 2015, 07:47:54 PM
It is just so tiresome to read stuff like this.
Still going on about the shutters for goodness sake.
The McCann's were phoning home absolutely devastated in a state of utter panic.
Gerry's sister said Gerry was crying his eyes out, she couldn't make out what he was saying for a while. The McCann's thought the shutters had been forced up, as anyone would who found shutters up when they had left them closed, their obvious thoughts would have been that someone had forced the shutters from outside and taken Madeleine.
What the sister was told was obviously repeated but instead of saying forced or broken she used the word 'jemmied' as for the door being wide open, the door to the bedroom was open wider than the McCann's had left it, so this has been confused too.
I keep saying this, why on earth would the McCann's say the shutters were broken when they weren't??? If they wanted to stage a break in then for goodness sake BREAK the shutters!!
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 03, 2015, 07:57:42 PM
Still going on about the shutters for goodness sake.
The McCann's were phoning home absolutely devastated in a state of utter panic.
Gerry's sister said Gerry was crying his eyes out, she couldn't make out what he was saying for a while. The McCann's thought the shutters had been forced up, as anyone would who found shutters up when they had left them closed, their obvious thoughts would have been that someone had forced the shutters from outside and taken Madeleine.
What the sister was told was obviously repeated but instead of saying forced or broken she used the word 'jemmied' as for the door being wide open, the door to the bedroom was open wider than the McCann's had left it, so this has been confused too.
I keep saying this, why on earth would the McCann's say the shutters were broken when they weren't??? If they wanted to stage a break in then for goodness sake BREAK the shutters!!
The "sceptics" will still be going on about the shutters until their dying breaths, surely you realise this by now.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Admin on January 03, 2015, 08:11:25 PM
A point worth considering is this. An intruder could not have accessed the apartment had the front door been locked.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 03, 2015, 08:24:03 PM
A point worth considering is this. An intruder could not have accessed the apartment had the front door been locked.
I always find this a bit confusing. There appears to be no handle on the outside of the door, so surely the door would be effectively locked, as it would be with a Yale-type lock and could only be opened from outside with a key.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 03, 2015, 08:33:52 PM
I always find this a bit confusing. There appears to be no handle on the outside of the door, so surely the door would be effectively locked, as it would be with a Yale-type lock and could only be opened from outside with a key.
My lock is very similar to the one on 5A, but the key is different. We have not handle on the outside. To unlock the door from the inside a small lever on the left is pulled out to the left, thus unlocking the door. If this lever in then turned upwards it will keep the door open, but the door can still be locked from the outside or doublelocked if the lever is down. Sorry if that is a bit confusing, Jassi, but difficult to explain really.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: jassi on January 03, 2015, 08:46:48 PM
My lock is very similar to the one on 5A, but the key is different. We have not handle on the outside. To unlock the door from the inside a small lever on the left is pulled out to the left, thus unlocking the door. If this lever in then turned upwards it will keep the door open, but the door can still be locked from the outside or doublelocked if the lever is down. Sorry if that is a bit confusing, Jassi, but difficult to explain really.
I think I understand. Can you open the door from the outside without a key ?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 03, 2015, 08:52:54 PM
I think I understand. Can you open the door from the outside without a key ?
No, We can not, Jassi, only from the inside. As you say it will lock on closing, if the latch is not lifted, otherwise it will stay open. However it can be double locked after pulling the door closed from the outside.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 03, 2015, 08:54:09 PM
If you're actually faking an abduction and the story is that they were jemmied, then why not just... erm, find an implement to leave marks of "jemmying"? Or take a knife or something and mess up the area around the door lock?
Because that's how people get caught, messing up when fabricating evidence.
All devotees of true crime stories know this %£&)**#
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 03, 2015, 08:58:46 PM
I always find this a bit confusing. There appears to be no handle on the outside of the door, so surely the door would be effectively locked, as it would be with a Yale-type lock and could only be opened from outside with a key.
Yes... we have a thread on the lock issue (a recent one - with photos).
What was totally ignored was the possibility of a spare key, or even a smaller implement than a full-sized credit card or a pokey thingy for the actual lock that wouldn't leave any trace of damage without, perhaps, a sophisticated forensic analysis, which seemingly wasn't done at the time.
There is also the possibility that someone entered via the patio doors and simply wasn't noticed (perhaps crouching?). And the theory that someone could have enticed her to the window and taken her out that way, although I find that very unlikely.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 03, 2015, 09:05:16 PM
Yes... we have a thread on the lock issue (a recent one - with photos).
What was totally ignored was the possibility of a spare key, or even a smaller implement than a full-sized credit card or a pokey thingy for the actual lock that wouldn't leave any trace of damage without, perhaps, a sophisticated forensic analysis, which seemingly wasn't done at the time.
There is also the possibility that someone entered via the patio doors and simply wasn't noticed (perhaps crouching?). And the theory that someone could have enticed her to the window and taken her out that way, although I find that very unlikely.
This is the thread, re: doorlocks 5A http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg207790#msg207790
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 03, 2015, 09:30:35 PM
Because that's how people get caught, messing up when fabricating evidence.
All devotees of true crime stories know this %£&)**#
Quite.
So they were so sophisticated as to indulge in double-think? If so, then perhaps they would have also known in advance that for the original PT investigation no evidence of a break-in = no abduction?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 03, 2015, 09:32:40 PM
So they were so sophisticated as to indulge in double-think? If so, then perhaps they would have also known in advance that for the original PT investigation no evidence of a break-in = no abduction?
Doesn't matter what anybody thinks if it can't be proven does it.
But I'm not saying that's what happened (because even if that's what I think I can't prove it); you asked why wouldn't someone fabricate evidence if they were claiming something had happened that hadn't. I was just answering that question.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 03, 2015, 10:18:28 PM
Gerry kicked in to his sort of you know, action mode, which er he was ringing people, who do we need to ring, the British Embassy, I think he was trying to get hold of the British Embassy and just get somebody erm who was English speaking, who might be able to help, erm say early, I know he phoned his sister, he was phoning relatives, just telling anybody you know, you've got to help us, what can you do, can you think of anything, erm he was flitting in and out, I was aware, so I stayed in the apartment but I know Gerry was in and out, speaking to the Police when they arrived, erm you know they were, Gerry, his way of coping is to do, to, to feel like he's doing something in a positive way and that's definitely how he got through the night. I don't know how he did the things he did, even made the calls he made'.
A little later still on the 4th May John Buck, British Ambassador to Portugal, descends on the scene.
GA- The McCanns are put up with David Payne.
We want to search the accommodation of the family friends to try to pick up Madeleine's clothes, especially those she was wearing on May 3rd at 5.35pm when she returned from the day centre with her mother and the twins.
Evidently, this initiative is not widely supported. The British ambassador meets with the team directing the investigation. The political and the diplomatic seem to want to prevent us from freely doing our work.
GA- I'm sure this check is necessary.
JB- The clothes? Are you mad? if I understand you properly, you want to go into the apartment to take clothes to have them analysed?
GA- Yes. What's the problem? It's a perfectly normal procedure in cases like this.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2015, 10:23:18 PM
Very good points made, Carana. These points, can only confirm that it was not a staged abduction.
Although they believed that the shutters were forced(not knowing, how easily they can be opened from outside) and that she had been abducted, they could not entirely rule out the other possibilities.............. Then how would they explain the damaged shutters and door, if she was found?
Not true Anna. As I have pointed out before Gerry had already tried the shutters and found they could be opened 'easily' from the outside before he spoke to any family members.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 03, 2015, 10:29:15 PM
Gerry even broke the shutters in their bedroom days before 8)-)))
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 03, 2015, 10:31:44 PM
Not true Anna. As I have pointed out before Gerry had already tried the shutters and found they could be opened 'easily' from the outside before he spoke to any family members.
Then, I stand corrected Faith. I assumed that he thought they originally locked down in place and the lock had been forced. My mistake!
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: lordpookles on January 04, 2015, 02:23:19 AM
My general feeling about the apartment is there are a lot of possible scenarios given one unlocked patio door, shutters that could be raised half way from the outside and more imo remote possibilities involving a front door key that someone could gain entry and take Madeleine. I think it's a possibility someone calling her to the window and pulling her through. This could be even more likely if it was someone she knew.
From the staging perspective you would be very wise not to overdo it imo. It's true in true crime they always come a cropper when the scene is overly staged. Look at the Meredith Kercher case - the brick through the window on the wall that was too high to climb up to when there was easier access at the back and the shards of glass on top of the mess of clothes/general stuff inside where a robbery had been staged.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: sadie on January 04, 2015, 03:46:12 AM
Not true Anna. As I have pointed out before Gerry had already tried the shutters and found they could be opened 'easily' from the outside before he spoke to any family members.
Can we just confirm that both Kate and Gerry spoke to the family back home.
You say, Faith, that Gerry was aware that the shutters opened before his call to the family ?
Was kate aware? Did she go outside and check the shutters? Please don't forget, she spoke to the family too.
And just how much got changed by "CHINESE WHISPERS" ?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 08:15:09 AM
Not true Anna. As I have pointed out before Gerry had already tried the shutters and found they could be opened 'easily' from the outside before he spoke to any family members.
All the more reason for Gerry to think the shutters had been forced. The shutters were meant to be controlled from inside not outside.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 04, 2015, 08:46:19 AM
The jemmying comes from the mccanns and then to their family and associates.
Could you explain why they decided (as part of their cunning plan) to lie to relatives and friends and tell them the shutters had been 'broken', 'smashed' and 'jemmied' - when they knew that as soon as the police looked at them, they would immediately see that wasn't true? What exactly was it they hoped to gain by deciding to do that - in your opinion?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 08:49:52 AM
Could you explain why they decided (as part of their cunning plan) to lie to relatives and friends and tell them the shutters had been 'broken', 'smashed' and 'jemmied' - when they knew that as soon as the police looked at them, they would immediately see that wasn't true? What exactly was it they hoped to gain by deciding to do that - in your opinion?
PANIC.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 04, 2015, 09:08:27 AM
AFAIK according to you they deliberately lied to their friends and relatives back home about the shutters as part of a pre-conceived plan. And according to you that is exactly what they did - so what was there to panic about?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 09:24:01 AM
AFAIK according to you they deliberately lied to their friends and relatives back home about the shutters as part of a pre-conceived plan. And according to you that is exactly what they did - so what was there to panic about?
Who said preconceived ?
It was in all likelihood a panic response to shift the blame for Madeleine's disappearance onto a mysterious 'abductor', and you are more than well aware of that.
The jemmying was made up.
It was a lie. and not the only one.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 09:50:30 AM
It was in all likelihood a panic response to shift the blame for Madeleine's disappearance onto a mysterious 'abductor', and you are more than well aware of that.
The jemmying was made up.
It was a lie. and not the only one.
As MR has pointed out...the perceived lie re the shutters has been the cornerstone of the accusations against the \McCanns for seven years....it will be impossible for Stephen, faith and their ilk to realise they have been wrong for this long whatever proof is produced...but wrong they are!
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
Can we just confirm that both Kate and Gerry spoke to the family back home.
You say, Faith, that Gerry was aware that the shutters opened before his call to the family ?
Was kate aware? Did she go outside and check the shutters? Please don't forget, she spoke to the family too.
And just how much got changed by "CHINESE WHISPERS" ?
Kate claims she was in the apartment when Gerry opened the shutters and both Kate's dad and Gerry's sister claimed it was Gerry they spoke to not Kate. Further all individuals quoted in those first reports claim to have spoken to either Kate or Gerry directly. Are you saying they are lying ?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 10:02:13 AM
Kate claims she was in the apartment when Gerry opened the shutters and both Kate's dad and Gerry's sister claimed it was Gerry they spoke to not Kate. Further all individuals quoted in those first reports claim to have spoken to either Kate or Gerry directly. Are you saying they are lying ?
no one is lying....just as the family member who refers to the apartment as a "chalet" is not lying...it's chinese whispers...nothing more
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 10:07:31 AM
It was in all likelihood a panic response to shift the blame for Madeleine's disappearance onto a mysterious 'abductor', and you are more than well aware of that.
The jemmying was made up.
It was a lie. and not the only one.
That makes no sense. Are you now saying they did NOT decide beforehand to falsely claim that the shutters and window were found to be open - as their proof that a stranger had entered 5A.? So when did they decide to make this claim?
You still haven't said why they would deliberately lie to their relatives, knowing they would be exposed as liars - not only to the PJ but to their relatives too - as soon as the police inspected the shutters/window.
Only a pair of very dim idiots would not realise that IMO.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 10:12:14 AM
That makes no sense. Are you now saying they did NOT decide beforehand to falsely claim that the shutters and window were found to be open - as their proof that a stranger had entered 5A.? So when did they decide to make this claim?
You still haven't said why they would deliberately lie to their relatives, knowing they would be exposed as liars - not only to the PJ but to their relatives too - as soon as the police inspected the shutters/window.
Only a pair of very dim idiots would not realise that IMO.
People don't always behave rationally in certain circumstances, and that is plainly evident with the mccanns.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 10:12:56 AM
no one is lying....just as the family member who refers to the apartment as a "chalet" is not lying...it's chinese whispers...nothing more
They are direct quotes from individuals claiming they have been given information directly from the protagonists. Now I could post those quotes but I'm sure you will have seen them before. So are you saying the family and friends lied when they claimed to have received information directly from either Kate or Gerry ?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 10:30:06 AM
They are direct quotes from individuals claiming they have been given information directly from the protagonists. Now I could post those quotes but I'm sure you will have seen them before. So are you saying the family and friends lied when they claimed to have received information directly from either Kate or Gerry ?
no ...absolutely no lies..I'm sure you have seen the use of the word "chalet" by a family member. Are you claiming Gerry would have used that word or do you accept the family member was paraphrasing...it blows your argument apart
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 10:35:59 AM
quote from the guardian..
"It is not right to say that they just left them," said Mr Healy. "They could see the chalet from where they were sitting in the restaurant, they were a hundred yards away. They went back every half hour to check on the children. When they returned at the end of their meal she was gone. My daughter can hardly speak. She is distraught, she is crying and in shock."
This is PROOF that the family used their own words to describe what happened and not necessarily the words used by the McCcannns themselves
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 04, 2015, 10:38:08 AM
People don't always behave rationally in certain circumstances, and that is plainly evident with the mccanns.
So are you saying the McCanns were so irrational - they both decided that to deliberately expose themselves to their relatives and the PJ as big fat liars - was a brilliant idea? That not 'irrational' Stephen - that's 'insane'.
Common sense please.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 10:40:38 AM
no ...absolutely no lies..I'm sure you have seen the use of the word "chalet" by a family member. Are you claiming Gerry would have used that word or do you accept the family member was paraphrasing...it blows your argument apart
Multiple family and friends claim they spoke to either Kate or Gerry directly and state that the couple claimed that the shutter had been forced, jemmied, broken etc. The couple, by the time they contacted their family, already knew because Gerry had raised the shutters himself 'quite easily' that no forcing, jemmying, braking etc needed to take place for a perpetrator to enter the apartment so it certainly couldn't have been a misconception on their part.
The family and friends each claimed that they spoke to Kate or Gerry directly so what they had learned had not been secondhand information.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 10:43:20 AM
Multiple family and friends claim they spoke to either Kate or Gerry directly and state that the couple claimed that the shutter had been forced, jemmied, broken etc. The couple, by the time they contacted their family, already knew because Gerry had raised the shutters himself 'quite easily' that no forcing, jemmying, braking etc needed to take place for a perpetrator to enter the apartment so it certainly couldn't have been a misconception on their part.
The family and friends each claimed that they spoke to Kate or Gerry directly so what they had learned had not been secondhand information.
and Gerry told them they had been staying in a "chalet"...do you want to pretend that is another lie by Gerry and put it with all the other pretendy lies....your argument has collapsed
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 10:44:21 AM
So are you saying the McCanns were so irrational - they both decided that to deliberately expose themselves to their relatives and the PJ as big fat liars - was a brilliant idea? That not 'irrational' Stephen - that's 'insane'.
Common sense please.
I think they McCanns where flying by the seats of their pants and had no time to consider the long term effects of their actions.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 10:52:37 AM
and Gerry told them they had been staying in a "chalet"...do you want to pretend that is another lie by Gerry and put it with all the other pretendy lies....your argument has collapsed
The 'chalet' comment is simply how the one family/friend understood the accommodation to be. They were adding their own interpretation of the complex accommodation. This is totally different from at least four family/friends claiming the had been told directly from either Kate or Gerry that the windows had been jemmied/broken/forced open. The words may be different but our understanding of them is unaltered, the shutters had to be forced to be opened.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 10:55:53 AM
The 'chalet' comment is simply how the one family/friend understood the accommodation to be. They were adding their own interpretation of the complex accommodation. This is totally different from at least four family/friends claiming the had been told directly from either Kate or Gerry that the windows had been jemmied/broken/forced open. The words may be different but our understanding of them is unaltered, the shutters had to be forced to be opened.
Of course they had to be forced...so now you accept that Gerry did not use the words smashed or jemmied...
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 10:58:36 AM
I'm afraid it's not about what you are happy to accept but what is proved in evidence.
as you may have noticed it has not been proved yet you and others are stating it as fact
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 04, 2015, 11:11:16 AM
In the beginning, I had assumed that "jemmied" implied the use of a crowbar or a similar implement. However, various people explained to me that it can be used to simply mean "forced open".
Then there is the semantic argument about what "forced open" may mean.
I had associated it with a connotation of evidence of damage due to brute force. Gerry had said that he hadn't realised that it could be lifted quite easily, which does appear to be true, kindly demonstrated by someone in a YouTube video clip.
Alternatively, it could simply mean opened / lifted in a manner for which it was not designed: the strap is on the inside - there isn't a design mechanism for lifting it from the outside.
Gerry may well have used the term "jemmied", or it could be that that was how whatever he did say was interpreted.
Personally, I find it important to bear in mind the context of a panicked - possibly barely coherent - phone call, with equally panicked family members forming varying mental impressions of a break-in together with the urgency of getting help from the media to help find her as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 11:13:36 AM
as you may have noticed it has not been proved yet you and others are stating it as fact
I have absolutely proved it by stint of family/friends direct statements.
It is interesting that you deny any wrongdoing by the McCanns even in the face of overwhelming evidence yet believe I am a certain individual by stint of the most tenuous hearsay. How exactly does that work then davel ?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 11:15:49 AM
I have absolutely proved it by stint of family/friends direct statements.
It is interesting that you deny any wrongdoing by the McCanns even in the face of overwhelming evidence yet believe I am a certain individual by stint of the most tenuous hearsay. How exactly does that work then davel ?
because there is no overwhelming evidence... as proved by the archiving report.....only in your and some others misinformed minds...such as the jemmied shuttersd
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2015, 11:20:12 AM
Multiple family and friends claim they spoke to either Kate or Gerry directly and state that the couple claimed that the shutter had been forced, jemmied, broken etc. The couple, by the time they contacted their family, already knew because Gerry had raised the shutters himself 'quite easily' that no forcing, jemmying, braking etc needed to take place for a perpetrator to enter the apartment so it certainly couldn't have been a misconception on their part.
The family and friends each claimed that they spoke to Kate or Gerry directly so what they had learned had not been secondhand information.
Gerry raised the shutters 'quite easily' could this have been because they had been forced up beforehand? They were not meant to have been opened from the outside at all. Gerry says in his statement he was surprised that they opened as he didn't think they could be opened from the outside. Therefore Gerry would have thought they had been forced and therefore broken in the sense that they could be raised.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
So, according to you they panicked and said the shutters were jemmied Stephen?
When did this panicking occur? When Kate found Madeleine gone? In which case according to you, you believe Amaral's theory of Madeleine having an accident, so, Kate having found Madeleine, hid her body sorted out the apartment, then opened the shutters. All the friends came back to 5a saw the shutters open and Gerry testing them from outside finding that they COULD be opened from the outside.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 11:41:34 AM
So, according to you they panicked and said the shutters were jemmied Stephen?
When did this panicking occur? When Kate found Madeleine gone? In which case according to you, you believe Amaral's theory of Madeleine having an accident, so, Kate having found Madeleine, hid her body sorted out the apartment, then opened the shutters. All the friends came back to 5a saw the shutters open and Gerry testing them from outside finding that they COULD be opened from the outside.
Then Gerry closed them in a panic before the police arrived, then phoned all his relatives in a panic and told them the shutters had been jemmied. It all makes perfect sense now!
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: sadie on January 04, 2015, 11:41:44 AM
Why dont you guys back off instead of making even more fools of yourselves?
- It has been shown that Kate spoke to her relatives and she didn't check the shutters. She was in such a state that even if Gerry told her, she quite probably would not have absorbed the info ... so may wewll have thought that the shutters had been forced open.
- Alternatively as Carana says the fact that the shutters opened from the outside so easily may have convinced Gerry to think they had been forced in some way. Most Brits would not expect roller shutters to open like that from outside ... and his mind was expecting that, from what he had seen inside
- The phone messages in such a situation would be garbled. They would be passed from family member to family member in the UK ad nausium and inevitably become changed by chinese whispers.
As has been pointed out earlier, in any case it appears that the word "jemmied" covers a wide spectrum of meanings.
- Remember, the family in the UK would also be in panic mode as soon as they heard the news, their minds would be doing cartwheels. Hardly the best situation for rational conversations, try as they might. A perfect chinese whisper mistakes situation.
- Even in the unlikely situation that Gerry or Kate had managed to speak in a normal unpanicked manner, it is doubtful they would include every tiny detail ... some would get missed. Even with a full and perfect description it is difficult to understand and visualise from afar what someone is describing.
I cannot think why you guys are so determined to make such a huge thing out of NOTHING!You guys really are desperate to drop The Mccanns in the dodo.
And, I will say it again: There has to be a reason for all this determination to paint The Mccanns as the perps. Is there an agenda somewhere?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 11:48:36 AM
Why dont you guys back off instead of making even more fools of yourselves?
- It has been shown that Kate spoke to her relatives and she didn't check the shutters. She was in such a state that even if Gerry told her, she quite probably would not have absorbed the info ... so may wewll have thought that the shutters had been forced open.
- Alternatively as Carana says the fact that the shutters opened from the outside so easily may have convinced Gerry to think they had been forced in some way. Most Brits would not expect roller shutters to open like that from outside ... and his mind was expecting that, from what he had seen inside
- The phone messages in such a situation would be garbled. They would be passed from family member to family member in the UK ad nausium and inevitably become changed by chinese whispers.
As has been pointed out earlier, in any case it appears that the word "jemmied" covers a wide spectrum of meanings.
- Remember, the family in the UK would also be in panic mode as soon as they heard the news, their minds would be doing cartwheels. Hardly the best situation for rational conversations, try as they might. A perfect chinese whisper mistakes situation.
- Even in the unlikely situation that Gerry or Kate had managed to speak in a normal unpanicked manner, it is doubtful they would include every tiny detail ... some would get missed. Even with a full and perfect description it is difficult to understand and visualise from afar what someone is describing.
I cannot think why you guys are so determined to make such a huge thing out of NOTHING! You guys really are desperate to drop The Mccanns in the dodo.
And, I will say it again: There has to be a reason for all this determination to paint The Mccanns as the perps. Is there an agenda somewhere?
So many words when what it boils down to is this. At least four friends/family state that either Kate or Gerry told them directly that the shutters had been broken/jemmied/forced. This was not hearsay. This was not secondhand information. So either the friends/family were lying or the couple were. It really is as simple as that.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 11:51:01 AM
So many words when what it boils down to is this. At least four friends/family state that either Kate or Gerry told them directly that the shutters had been broken/jemmied/forced. This was not hearsay. This was not secondhand information. So either the friends/family were lying or the couple were. It really is as simple as that.
no one is lying..Gerry said the shutters had been forced..it is as simple as that
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 04, 2015, 11:55:05 AM
In the beginning, I had assumed that "jemmied" implied the use of a crowbar or a similar implement. However, various people explained to me that it can be used to simply mean "forced open".
Then there is the semantic argument about what "forced open" may mean.
I had associated it with a connotation of evidence of damage due to brute force. Gerry had said that he hadn't realised that it could be lifted quite easily, which does appear to be true, kindly demonstrated by someone in a YouTube video clip.
Alternatively, it could simply mean opened / lifted in a manner for which it was not designed: the strap is on the inside - there isn't a design mechanism for lifting it from the outside.
Gerry may well have used the term "jemmied", or it could be that that was how whatever he did say was interpreted.
Personally, I find it important to bear in mind the context of a panicked - possibly barely coherent - phone call, with equally panicked family members forming varying mental impressions of a break-in together with the urgency of getting help from the media to help find her as quickly as possible.
IIRC. It was a word used, in Scotland, when something was forced open, however, I do not know if it is still used as such.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2015, 11:55:53 AM
I have absolutely proved it by stint of family/friends direct statements.
It is interesting that you deny any wrongdoing by the McCanns even in the face of overwhelming evidence yet believe I am a certain individual by stint of the most tenuous hearsay. How exactly does that work then davel ?
Faith, you have PROVED nothing.
Seems that you, like a few others on here believe the Quentin crisp rubbish that you actually have the affrontery to use as your signature:
“Charisma is the ability to influence without logic.”
Quentin Crisp
If you think that is good enough: If you are unable to follow logic; if you are unable to stop blaming The Mccanns with NO evidence, then I respectfully suggest that you dont say anything. Rather than perpetuate a myth and Injustice against a couple who are legally unable to answer back..
Charisma doesn't count. Smooth talkers are slimey characters and the bane of this forum. Let's have FACTS and LOGIC
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: sadie on January 04, 2015, 12:13:38 PM
So many words when what it boils down to is this. At least four friends/family state that either Kate or Gerry told them directly that the shutters had been broken/jemmied/forced. This was not hearsay. This was not secondhand information. So either the friends/family were lying or the couple were. It really is as simple as that.
- Are you sure that the word directly was used? - Are you sure that Gerry did not think the shutters had been forced cos in his mind, per British shutters, they would NOT open from outside unless broken in some way - Are you sure that it was Gerry that supposedly said these words? .... or could it have been Kate who had not checked the shutters to see if they were broken? - Are you SURE that it wasn't Chinese Whispers?
etc. etc.
So many alternatives to what you are asserting.
If you are NOT SURE of these things then you should stop making these assertions. Effectively, IMO, they are libellouis.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 12:48:43 PM
Perhaps a "sceptic" could explain what is unreasonable about Gerry assuming that the shutters had been forced open, on discovering his daughter missing and saying so to his relatives? Anybody?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 01:39:32 PM
Well...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: slartibartfast on January 04, 2015, 04:56:17 PM
Perhaps a "sceptic" could explain what is unreasonable about Gerry assuming that the shutters had been forced open, on discovering his daughter missing and saying so to his relatives? Anybody?
Why would they be forced when they left the patio doors unlocked?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 04:58:20 PM
Why would they be forced when they left the patio doors unlocked?
Can you please answer my question, rather than ask another question first, could you do that for me, pretty please...?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 05:01:34 PM
Eg: "it is unreasonable for Gerry to assume that on seeing the bedroom shutters open and his daughter missing that they were forced opened because he should have reasoned that the abductor came in through the patio doors and opened the shutters from inside" - is that your reasoning Slarti?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: slartibartfast on January 04, 2015, 05:04:02 PM
Why would they be forced when they left the patio doors unlocked?
There may not have been forced entry (depending on what that is supposed to mean), but I would think that that could be an initial assumption if no one had noticed an unknown individual entering via the patio door but then someone discovered a shutter and window open on the other side of the apartment.
These arguments go around in circles. The fact is that the possibility of a temporarily stolen or duplicated key wasn't investigated at the time.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 05:26:02 PM
Eg: "it is unreasonable for Gerry to assume that on seeing the bedroom shutters open and his daughter missing that they were forced opened because he should have reasoned that the abductor came in through the patio doors and opened the shutters from inside" - is that your reasoning Slarti?
Bull.
You don't even know McCann saw the shutters open.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 05:29:16 PM
Perhaps a "sceptic" could explain what is unreasonable about Gerry assuming that the shutters had been forced open, on discovering his daughter missing and saying so to his relatives? Anybody?
Bump.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 04, 2015, 06:00:29 PM
IIRC. It was a word used, in Scotland, when something was forced open, however, I do not know if it is still used as such.
Jemmy (n) a short crow bar used by burglars. To jemmy (v) to force open often with a jemmy. The origin is as far I know English as in Scotland what the English call a crowbar is referred to as a pinching bar (or at least it was when I worked up there). They also called tap and reamer wrenches "dwangs"; like weird man. None the less for us older nefarious types the word, and indeed the implement, was/is well known 8(>(( It used to be an offence in England to carry one between the hours of 23:00 and 06:00 (approx); being caught with one was called "going prepared" about which the old bill did not have much of a sense of humour and would make life hard for you. So if you were hitherto unfamiliar with the terms jemmy and jemmied it is because you are too young or not bent enough rather than it is not English and is Scottish. End of lesson you may now all go home and have an ice cream on the way.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2015, 06:05:19 PM
When I lived and worked in Glasgow, Jemmied meant to break into by some means or other.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 06:07:51 PM
It won't make the claim that mccann saw the shutters open true.
It's what you've been fed or told to believe.
Quite sad really.
IMO of course.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 06:10:52 PM
I'm sure when Gerry saw the shutters opened he assumed they had been forced up from the outside...quite reasonable...nothing sinister ...his family simply repeated the claim adding a little...
I remember at school ..some time ago about the soldier who passed a message down the line saying...send reinforcements..we're going to advance..
by the time it got to the end of the line it was...send 3 and fourpence...we're going to a dance...
no one was lying
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 04, 2015, 06:11:56 PM
Jemmied ....Example of how it can be used in Scotland meaning forced:-
(I am Scottish, by the way)
"I've been off on the sick for two months now – yep, as of tomorrow it's a full sixth of a calendar since my skull was jemmied open and the lurking horror removed – and people keep asking me how I fill my days."
I'm sure when Gerry saw the shutters opened he assumed they had been forced up from the outside...quite reasonable...nothing sinister ...his family simply repeated the claim adding a little...
I remember at school ..some time ago about the soldier who passed a message down the line saying...send reinforcements..we're going to advance..
by the time it got to the end of the line it was...send 3 and fourpence...we're going to a dance...
no one was lying
In your dreams.
Now that could have come from bill 'sykes'. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2015, 06:15:14 PM
Its obvious now why SY thought burglars were involved ?{)(**
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
My general feeling about the apartment is there are a lot of possible scenarios given one unlocked patio door, shutters that could be raised half way from the outside and more imo remote possibilities involving a front door key that someone could gain entry and take Madeleine. I think it's a possibility someone calling her to the window and pulling her through. This could be even more likely if it was someone she knew.
From the staging perspective you would be very wise not to overdo it imo. It's true in true crime they always come a cropper when the scene is overly staged. Look at the Meredith Kercher case - the brick through the window on the wall that was too high to climb up to when there was easier access at the back and the shards of glass on top of the mess of clothes/general stuff inside where a robbery had been staged.
There are indeed a lot of possible scenarios all of them ending with the fact that Madeleine McCann vanished from her bed on the 3rd May 2007 and someone is responsible for doing that.
Madeleine's parents have been intensively investigated by law enforcement of two countries; they have been cleared of involvement by law enforcement of two countries. What should that tell you?
Does anyone think the PJ and SY have called in the linguistic sleuths to investigate why Scots relations used the term "jemmied" or why Mr Healey called the apartment a villa? It did not matter then ... and it most certainly does not matter now.
Semantics won't solve what happened to Madeleine McCann; good investigative police work will and that was something missing from this case until 2011.
The fact we are hearing nothing about the investigation at the moment is good ... because it means there is a fair chance that the perp is hearing nothing as well, unless an insider is keeping him/her or them informed.
How many ways are there to demonstrate that Madeleine's parents are not persons of interest? Of course anyone who gets excited about the "jemmied" termination at this remove, obviously needs something to cling to ... rather sad really.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 06:54:11 PM
There are indeed a lot of possible scenarios all of them ending with the fact that Madeleine McCann vanished from her bed on the 3rd May 2007 and someone is responsible for doing that.
Madeleine's parents have been intensively investigated by law enforcement of two countries; they have been cleared of involvement by law enforcement of two countries. What should that tell you?
Does anyone think the PJ and SY have called in the linguistic sleuths to investigate why Scots relations used the term "jemmied" or why Mr Healey called the apartment a villa? It did not matter then ... and it most certainly does not matter now.
Semantics won't solve what happened to Madeleine McCann; good investigative police work will and that was something missing from this case until 2011.
The fact we are hearing nothing about the investigation at the moment is good ... because it means there is a fair chance that the perp is hearing nothing as well, unless an insider is keeping him/her or them informed.
How many ways are there to demonstrate that Madeleine's parents are not persons of interest? Of course anyone who gets excited about the "jemmied" termination at this remove, obviously needs something to cling to ... rather sad really.
'rather sad really'
It is indeed.
When people lie about the simplest things.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2015, 06:57:46 PM
You seem to be implying that the McCanns are pathological liars who can't control their lying, to the point where they lie even when they know they will be found out straight away, is that your view?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 07:05:56 PM
Jassi never said pathological.
However, human nature invariably is demonstrated amply when people lie to protect themselves.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2015, 07:12:53 PM
It must be a source of real puzzlement to you Stephen that neither SY nor the PJ think that the McCanns lied about finding the window and shutters open - and hence partly on the strength of that evidence from the McCanns they believe Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger. Why do you think they don't agree with you? What have they missed that you haven't?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 07:23:21 PM
It must be a source of real puzzlement to you Stephen that neither SY nor the PJ think that the McCanns lied about finding the window and shutters open - and hence partly on the strength of that evidence from the McCanns they believe Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger. Why do you think they don't agree with you? What have they missed that you haven't?
They simply haven't got his brainpower is the sad fact of the matter. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2015, 07:24:32 PM
Madeleine's parents have been intensively investigated by law enforcement of two countries; they have been cleared of involvement by law enforcement of two countries. What should that tell you?
They don't want to be the next in court after Mr Amaral?
(Doesn't really tell us much else Brietta)
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 07:50:39 PM
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 04, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
For Stephen - in case he missed it:-
It must be a source of real puzzlement to you Stephen that neither SY nor the PJ think that the McCanns lied about finding the window and shutters open - and hence partly on the strength of that evidence from the McCanns they believe Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger. Why do you think they don't agree with you? What have they missed that you haven't?
.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2015, 08:15:19 PM
It must be a source of real puzzlement to you Stephen that neither SY nor the PJ think that the McCanns lied about finding the window and shutters open - and hence partly on the strength of that evidence from the McCanns they believe Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger. Why do you think they don't agree with you? What have they missed that you haven't?
.
So why did the PJ change their mind ?
As to SY, what have they found exactly ?
I can remind you of course, with a few words if you wish. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 04, 2015, 08:22:47 PM
I'm perhaps being obtuse here, Lyall ... I'm not understanding that.
Because in 2008 the McCanns told the world they'd been definitely cleared, and the papers and TV repeated that assertion (again and again).
So anyone who says now until the case is solved everyone is a suspect is going against what the McCanns and papers and TV said in 2008 (and every day since).
Police had no choice but to say of course they're not suspects.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 08:41:30 PM
Because in 2008 the McCanns told the world they'd been definitely cleared, and the papers and TV repeated that assertion (again and again).
So anyone who says now until the case is solved everyone is a suspect is going against what the McCanns and papers and TV said in 2008 (and every day since).
Police had no choice but to say of course they're not suspects.
The police could have said nothing....the McCcanns were arguidos and that status has been removed ...so in effect they have been cleared. I am not aware that there is a legal status of cleared and therefore an accurate legal definition. Even Barry George it seems has not been legally "cleared" as he has not been paid compensation
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 04, 2015, 08:53:14 PM
The police could have said nothing....the McCcanns were arguidos and that status has been removed ...so in effect they have been cleared. I am not aware that there is a legal status of cleared and therefore an accurate legal definition. Even Barry George it seems has not been legally "cleared" as he has not been paid compensation
Nope he hasn't, poor guy.
But how could Redwood have said nothing when he was asked the direct questions in 2011? He had to say something, but all the Portuguese said in 2008 was we have no evidence against Madeleine's parents, nor against anyone else: that's not exoneration is it.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 04, 2015, 08:57:18 PM
But how could Redwood have said nothing when he was asked the direct questions in 2011? He had to say something, but all the Portuguese said in 2008 was we have no evidence against Madeleine's parents, nor against anyone else: that's not exoneration is it.
Was Redwood asked directly if the McCanns were suspects? Of course if they were and he didn't want it revealed on TV he would have made this clear before the interview even started.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 08:59:40 PM
But how could Redwood have said nothing when he was asked the direct questions in 2011? He had to say something, but all the Portuguese said in 2008 was we have no evidence against Madeleine's parents, nor against anyone else: that's not exoneration is it.
whatever redwood said you could invent a reason to not believe it...Redwood didn't have to say that he believed Maddie was a victim of a stranger abduction...why are they spending 10 million on an investigation if they suspect the mccanns...your theories make no sense
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2015, 09:01:04 PM
Was Redwood asked directly if the McCanns were suspects? Of course if they were and he didn't want it revealed on TV he would have made this clear before the interview even started.
You are quite right Alfred...the questions are agreed beforehand
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 04, 2015, 09:13:03 PM
whatever redwood said you could invent a reason to not believe it...Redwood didn't have to say that he believed Maddie was a victim of a stranger abduction...why are they spending 10 million on an investigation if they suspect the mccanns...your theories make no sense
I didn't say the British police suspected or suspect them; who knows what they think privately.
But the declaration of exoneration in 2008 - reinforced countless thousands of times by newspapers and TV over the years - did mean the police had to be careful with the language they used after the PM told them to get involved.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2015, 09:34:08 PM
I didn't say the British police suspected or suspect them; who knows what they think privately.
But the declaration of exoneration in 2008 - reinforced countless thousands of times by newspapers and TV over the years - did mean the police had to be careful with the language they used after the PM told them to get involved.
... and if the scoping exercise carried out had shown that there was no evidence or not enough evidence to justify further inquiry ... that would have been reported back to the Home Secretary ... and Madeleine's case would not have been reopened.
On the contrary, when the police studied the files they found numerous avenues of investigation which just had not been pursued ... that is why the investigation was started again ... and it is why the PJ and the Met are playing catch up over seven years down the line.
It should be remembered ... the PJ are looking for an abductor ... Scotland Yard are looking for an abductor ... so I think it would be safe to say both law enforcement agencies believe Madeleine McCann was abducted.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 04, 2015, 09:47:01 PM
I can remind you of course, with a few words if you wish. 8(0(*
Your usual deflection tactics are duly noted. I will take it that you can't even give us a hint as to why you are so sure that you are right and that SY and the PJ are completely wrong in their assertion that Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger. No surprise there then.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 04, 2015, 10:14:17 PM
... and if the scoping exercise carried out had shown that there was no evidence or not enough evidence to justify further inquiry ... that would have been reported back to the Home Secretary ... and Madeleine's case would not have been reopened.
On the contrary, when the police studied the files they found numerous avenues of investigation which just had not been pursued ... that is why the investigation was started again ... and it is why the PJ and the Met are playing catch up over seven years down the line.
It should be remembered ... the PJ are looking for an abductor ... Scotland Yard are looking for an abductor ... so I think it would be safe to say both law enforcement agencies believe Madeleine McCann was abducted.
That's good analysis but you omit to say the British government made their position on Madeleine's disappearance very plain, as did the other party leaders. So can you see it's possible the British police have worked as diligently as you say, but only in the direction indicated by the people paying for the investigation?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 01:13:13 AM
That's good analysis but you omit to say the British government made their position on Madeleine's disappearance very plain, as did the other party leaders. So can you see it's possible the British police have worked as diligently as you say, but only in the direction indicated by the people paying for the investigation?
Scotland Yard followed the evidence.
If there had been nothing worth following they would have been unable to take the case back to Portugal ...
You are suggesting they made the same mistake as Dr Amaral did by trying to make the evidence fit his theory ... that approach is confined to amateurs ... real investigators do their best to avoid that particular pitfall.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 01:38:59 AM
If there had been nothing worth following they would have been unable to take the case back to Portugal ...
You are suggesting they made the same mistake as Dr Amaral did by trying to make the evidence fit his theory ... that approach is confined to amateurs ... real investigators do their best to avoid that particular pitfall.
If you do a review of any case you'll always find loose ends, mostly - like in SY's review - witness statements that weren't able to be resolved. So there'll always be something you can say is a line of inquiry if go looking for one, even if it's tenuous. The PM instructed them to go looking, and indicated what he hoped they would find: is it at all likely after two years they'd tell him that the evidence they found pointing in that direction was weak? The British police are involved because the government told them to be. Presumably the police can't choose not to be.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 02:17:37 AM
Do you think it's an autonomous investigation when the PM orders it?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: misty on January 05, 2015, 02:21:17 AM
If you do a review of any case you'll always find loose ends, mostly - like in SY's review - witness statements that weren't able to be resolved. So there'll always be something you can say is a line of inquiry if go looking for one, even if it's tenuous. The PM instructed them to go looking, and indicated what he hoped they would find: is it at all likely after two years they'd tell him that the evidence they found pointing in that direction was weak? The British police are involved because the government told them to be. Presumably the police can't choose not to be.
Are you therefore suggesting that the British Government ordered the Portuguese to re-open their shelved investigation based on loose ends?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 02:42:09 AM
Are you therefore suggesting that the British Government ordered the Portuguese to re-open their shelved investigation based on loose ends?
Persuaded maybe. British police had no legal way to investigate in Portugal, but that's effectively what they did partly try to do anyway with Crimewatch (and the subsequent appeals).
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 02:47:19 AM
Do you think it's an autonomous investigation when the PM orders it?
If you suggest that the Prime Minister "ordered" the police to reopen the investigation it would be appropriate to provide a cite.
As a result of an open letter to the press the PM gave his backing to a review of the evidence amid a clamour suggesting even that action ... support for a review ... smacked of politicising the police service. I doubt very much that he was going to walk into a political storm and directly "order" the police to do anything ... don't forget the previous Home Secretary had recommended a review should take place and had left the paperwork on his desk for the attention of his successor.
** snip In May 2011, four years after her disappearance, Theresa May with the backing of Prime Minister David Cameron ordered Scotland Yard to begin a review of the evidence.
Earlier this summer the Met Police announced the review was being turned into a formal investigation. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/438868/Portuguese-police-reopen-Madeleine-McCann-investigation
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: misty on January 05, 2015, 02:50:36 AM
Persuaded maybe. British police had no legal way to investigate in Portugal, but that's effectively what they did partly try to do anyway with Crimewatch (and the subsequent appeals).
What was revealed in Crimewatch that the Portuguese police were not aware of or had investigated prior to the investigation being shelved? The PJ had categorically stated that they would not re-open their investigation unless there was significant fresh evidence.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 02:58:41 AM
What was revealed in Crimewatch that the Portuguese police were not aware of or had investigated prior to the investigation being shelved? The PJ had categorically stated that they would not re-open their investigation unless there was significant fresh evidence.
Of course I think it was probably persuasion from the British government, though that's just opinion. Why do you think they did? What was the evidence?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 03:07:42 AM
If you suggest that the Prime Minister "ordered" the police to reopen the investigation it would be appropriate to provide a cite.
It's still Operation Grange whether it technically review or investigation. He certainly ordered Operation Grange didn't he, and he certainly indicated what he hoped the outcome would be, or could be. In 2013 Campbell said the review had found lines of inquiry, so of course the PM would want it to continue (he hadn't changed his mind or hope in the meantime, had he). But review or investigation it's the same entity: the PM's creation.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: misty on January 05, 2015, 03:14:58 AM
It's still Operation Grange whether it technically review or investigation. He certainly ordered Operation Grange didn't he, and he certainly indicated what he hoped the outcome would be, or could be. In 2013 Campbell said the review had found lines of inquiry, so of course the PM would want it to continue (he hadn't changed his mind or hope in the meantime, had he). But review or investigation it's the same entity: the PM's creation.
In the same vein, are you objecting to the current PM ordering multi investigations into historical child sex abuse & directing the police regarding expected outcomes?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 03:26:31 AM
In the same vein, are you objecting to the current PM ordering multi investigations into historical child sex abuse & directing the police regarding expected outcomes?
Of course not but it isn't a great comparison as those crimes took place in the UK.
I didn't say I objected to Operation Grange either. But I think people should see it for what it is (not autonomous imo).
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: misty on January 05, 2015, 03:41:04 AM
Of course not but it isn't a great comparison as those crimes took place in the UK.
I didn't say I objected to Operation Grange either. But I think people should see it for what it is (not autonomous imo).
There is a great comparison. Crimes against children were ignored or brushed under the carpet when the scope of the investigations would have proved too uncomfortable for the police or Establishment.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 05, 2015, 08:10:05 AM
Your usual deflection tactics are duly noted. I will take it that you can't even give us a hint as to why you are so sure that you are right and that SY and the PJ are completely wrong in their assertion that Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger. No surprise there then.
More deflection from benice.
Standard mccann supporter tactics.
No surprise then on that.
Why did the PJ change their mind ?
As to SY , a belief in an abduction, does not make it so. You know that don't you ? 8((()*/
and they have found diddly squat evidence of abduction, in case you haven't noticed.
As to TIMELINES, well within the timeline Madeleine may have died in the apartment. Presuming of course the mccanns told the truth of what happened before
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 05, 2015, 10:28:40 AM
No, it is not a specifically Scottish expression, but can mean something very different to the use of a Jemmy, in Scotland
Like what? The English interpretation of "jemmied" is forced open. The English interpretation of "jemmy" is a burglars tool. Tell me how the Scottish version is so different?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 05, 2015, 11:15:58 AM
Like what? The English interpretation of "jemmied" is forced open. The English interpretation of "jemmy" is a burglars tool. Tell me how the Scottish version is so different?
Personally, I wouldn't have used the term "jemmied" for what PeterMac did... but the fact remains that they could be easily raised from the outside by someone who didn't have access to the designed mechanism, nor permission to do so.
If - during PeterMac's experiment - it had jammed, what term do you think that potential occupants of that flat should have used to describe the state of affairs upon returning home in a panic situation?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: sadie on January 05, 2015, 11:16:49 AM
Like what? The English interpretation of "jemmied" is forced open. The English interpretation of "jemmy" is a burglars tool. Tell me how the Scottish version is so different?
Gawd strewth .... you still on about "jemmied"?
Walk out and smell the roses, Alice
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
As to SY , a belief in an abduction, does not make it so. You know that don't you ? 8((()*/
and they have found diddly squat evidence of abduction, in case you haven't noticed.
As to TIMELINES, well within the timeline Madeleine may have died in the apartment. Presuming of course the mccanns told the truth of what happened before
I will ignore your childish tit for tat remarks which IMO belong in the playground.
So the bottom line is - you are not going to tell us what it is you think SY and PJ have missed which you haven't. Fair enough - although I'm surprised you would not want to share such vital missed information. I hope you've sent it to SY.
SY have said that Madeleine may have died in the apartment - but you appear to have missed the fact that that statement was made in relation to the intruder who had sexually assaulted many UK children in their own apartments - and who has never been apprehended.
You also appear to have missed the fact that the McCanns know that their daughter may be dead, but along with Kerry Needham and others - they will continue to believe that their child may still be alive - until they are shown the evidence that they are not.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: sadie on January 05, 2015, 11:22:22 AM
Personally, I wouldn't have used the term "jemmied" for what PeterMac did... but the fact remains that they could be easily raised from the outside by someone who didn't have access to the designed mechanism, nor permission to do so.
If - during PeterMac's experiment - it had jammed, what term do you think that potential occupants of that flat should have used to describe the state of affairs upon returning home in a panic situation?
Quite right
And to someone from Britian who only had knowledge of shutters that Could NOT be opened from outside, it would seem that they had been jemmied, for them to 'now' open freely from ouitside.
In other words, it would seem that the mechanism had broken = jemmied.
Cant you guys get your mind around such a simple set of affairs ... or are you too afraid that another of your myths has hit the ground with a bang?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: sadie on January 05, 2015, 11:24:00 AM
I will ignore your childish tit for tat remarks which IMO belong in the playground.
So the bottom line is - you are not going to tell us what it is you think SY and PJ have missed which you haven't. Fair enough - although I'm surprised you would not want to share such vital missed information. I hope you've sent it to SY.
SY have said that Madeleine may have died in the apartment - but you appear to have missed the fact that that statement was made in relation to the intruder who had sexually assaulted many UK children in their own apartments - and who has never been apprehended.
You also appear to have missed the fact that the McCanns know that their daughter may be dead, but along with Kerry Needham and others - they will continue to believe that their child may still be alive - until they are shown the evidence that they are not.
Bumped
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 05, 2015, 11:32:53 AM
I will ignore your childish tit for tat remarks which IMO belong in the playground.
So the bottom line is - you are not going to tell us what it is you think SY and PJ have missed which you haven't. Fair enough - although I'm surprised you would not want to share such vital missed information. I hope you've sent it to SY.
SY have said that Madeleine may have died in the apartment - but you appear to have missed the fact that that statement was made in relation to the intruder who had sexually assaulted many UK children in their own apartments - and who has never been apprehended.
You also appear to have missed the fact that the McCanns know that their daughter may be dead, but along with Kerry Needham and others - they will continue to believe that their child may still be alive - until they are shown the evidence that they are not.
You are extrapolating from what the British police actually said themselves about incidents in other apartments, Benice. So did the newspapers, but the police themselves never did.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 04:03:37 PM
You are extrapolating from what the British police actually said themselves about incidents in other apartments, Benice. So did the newspapers, but the police themselves never did.
Make no mistake about it Scotland Yard and I think the current PJ investigators also are very interested indeed in the home invasions in the Algarve involving British children ... the fact being constantly rubbished until the beginning of 2014.
Just another instance of entirely the wrong tack being taken by people who go out of their way to refute anything which does not relate to implicating Madeleine's parents in her disappearance.
In my opinion, whether this man has anything to do with Madeleine McCann's disappearance is academic.
He is a sexual predator who preys on children ... and although detaining him should have been a priority it appears little effort was made to apprehend him. That paints a very poor picture of the value placed on British holidaymakers' children by the authorities.
I do not think there should be the slightest doubt that neither the PJ or SY have any suspicion of Madeleine's parents: both law enforcement agencies are looking for an outside perpetrator, it could not be made plainer.
** snip Nor were such words used when Redwood said last week: “The Metropolitan Police Service continues to offer a reward of up to £20,000 for information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of the person(s) responsible for the abduction of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007.” http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/27-features/legal/1863-madeleine-case-in-a-right-old-muddle
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 05, 2015, 04:11:33 PM
Make no mistake about it Scotland Yard and I think the current PJ investigators also are very interested indeed in the home invasions in the Algarve involving British children ... the fact being constantly rubbished until the beginning of 2014.
Just another instance of entirely the wrong tack being taken by people who go out of their way to refute anything which does not relate to implicating Madeleine's parents in her disappearance.
In my opinion, whether this man has anything to do with Madeleine McCann's disappearance is academic.
He is a sexual predator who preys on children ... and although detaining him should have been a priority it appears little effort was made to apprehend him. That paints a very poor picture of the value placed on British holidaymakers' children by the authorities.
I do not think there should be the slightest doubt that neither the PJ or SY have any suspicion of Madeleine's parents: both law enforcement agencies are looking for an outside perpetrator, it could not be made plainer.
** snip Nor were such words used when Redwood said last week: “The Metropolitan Police Service continues to offer a reward of up to £20,000 for information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of the person(s) responsible for the abduction of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007.” http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/27-features/legal/1863-madeleine-case-in-a-right-old-muddle
Wasn't there more than one intruder with the same risky MO.
There was the pot bellied guy & the one with laundry wrapped round his feet, & not forgetting the black guy, but he just sat on their beds for a chin wag, like you do.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 05:45:44 PM
Make no mistake about it Scotland Yard and I think the current PJ investigators also are very interested indeed in the home invasions in the Algarve involving British children ... the fact being constantly rubbished until the beginning of 2014.
Of course they are/were but it wasn't the police who said they were all linked, that was the media and online discussers.
(The incidents, or some of them, were mentioned in the NOTW years ago but I never saw many people discussing what the NOTW had said... until the day the Met made their appeal for information. Then all of a sudden people are saying it's one person who is now another suspect etc.).
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 05:48:57 PM
Why is Operation Grange taking an interest in these cases then?
They had other people, British holidaymakers presumably, approaching them after Crimewatch to say something had happened to them. So the British police made the appeal to see if anyone else knew anything. Simple as that. They couldn't ignore what people had told them.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Anna on January 05, 2015, 06:01:05 PM
Of course they are/were but it wasn't the police who said they were all linked, that was the media and online discussers.
(The incidents, or some of them, were mentioned in the NOTW years ago but I never saw many people discussing what the NOTW had said... until the day the Met made their appeal for information. Then all of a sudden people are saying it's one person who is now another suspect etc.).
A Portuguese police inquiry into the case closed in 2008 but Scotland Yard opened a new review of the evidence in 2011 after an intervention from David Cameron. Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood, leading the inquiry, today said police needed to establish the identity of the sex attacker. He added: "These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and establish if the offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance. "If anyone has been a victim of a similar crime, please come forward even if you reported it to police in Portugal or anywhere else. "Please do not assume we've been made aware of it. While some of these offences have been in the public domain before, following our appeal in October, three more were reported to us as a direct result of that appeal." He added that one of those reports was the first in the possible linked series of crimes.
Of course they are/were but it wasn't the police who said they were all linked, that was the media and online discussers.
(The incidents, or some of them, were mentioned in the NOTW years ago but I never saw many people discussing what the NOTW had said... until the day the Met made their appeal for information. Then all of a sudden people are saying it's one person who is now another suspect etc.).
I have never read the News of the World so missed it entirely.
I read about the attacks a year ago as a result of the book "MADELEINE" ... unfortunately as with absolutely everything which does not fit a particular viewpoint the statement attracted particularly virulent denials and attacks.
It is particularly disturbing that these attacks pre and post dated Madeleine's disappearance ... if you are thinking more than one individual may be responsible ... what is the implication there? ... ONE pervert on the loose is more than enough for any area reliant on the tourist industry.
How many of these creatures do you suppose were off the leash and tolerated?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2015, 06:14:00 PM
They had other people, British holidaymakers presumably, approaching them after Crimewatch to say something had happened to them. So the British police made the appeal to see if anyone else knew anything. Simple as that. They couldn't ignore what people had told them.
Parents of sexually assaulted children had already contacted the UK police as a result of Madeleine's disappearance - long before Crimewatch.
Some of their 'experiences' are described in Kate's book.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 06:14:15 PM
A Portuguese police inquiry into the case closed in 2008 but Scotland Yard opened a new review of the evidence in 2011 after an intervention from David Cameron. Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood, leading the inquiry, today said police needed to establish the identity of the sex attacker. He added: "These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and establish if the offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance. "If anyone has been a victim of a similar crime, please come forward even if you reported it to police in Portugal or anywhere else. "Please do not assume we've been made aware of it. While some of these offences have been in the public domain before, following our appeal in October, three more were reported to us as a direct result of that appeal." He added that one of those reports was the first in the possible linked series of crimes.
He does say more there than the official Met appeal(s) (can't remember if there was one or two). You're right, but I was meaning the Met appeals, not what he said in front of a a camera. I'll check the appeals.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 06:16:31 PM
I have never read the News of the World so missed it entirely.
I read about the attacks a year ago as a result of the book "MADELEINE" ... unfortunately as with absolutely everything which does not fit a particular viewpoint the statement attracted particularly virulent denials and attacks.
It is particularly disturbing that these attacks pre and post dated Madeleine's disappearance ... if you are thinking more than one individual may be responsible ... what is the implication there? ... ONE pervert on the loose is more than enough for any area reliant on the tourist industry.
How many of these creatures do you suppose were off the leash and tolerated?
Tolerated? &%+((£ How many offenders aren't caught in the UK? Many, but you wouldn't say that's because they've been "tolerated" would you.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 06:17:09 PM
They had other people, British holidaymakers presumably, approaching them after Crimewatch to say something had happened to them. So the British police made the appeal to see if anyone else knew anything. Simple as that. They couldn't ignore what people had told them.
It was interesting that DCI Redwood announced that even if the offence had been reported to the police at the time not to assume Operation Grange were aware of it and to contact them again.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 06:19:45 PM
A Portuguese police inquiry into the case closed in 2008 but Scotland Yard opened a new review of the evidence in 2011 after an intervention from David Cameron. Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood, leading the inquiry, today said police needed to establish the identity of the sex attacker. He added: "These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and establish if the offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance. "If anyone has been a victim of a similar crime, please come forward even if you reported it to police in Portugal or anywhere else. "Please do not assume we've been made aware of it. While some of these offences have been in the public domain before, following our appeal in October, three more were reported to us as a direct result of that appeal." He added that one of those reports was the first in the possible linked series of crimes.
Parents of sexually assaulted children had already contacted the UK police as a result of Madeleine's disappearance - long before Crimewatch.
Some of their 'experiences' are described in Kate's book.
I know, but there's nothing to link them to PdL, May 3 2007 is there. That's the point. The Met appeal goes back to incident three years earlier. But why stop at incidents three years earlier in Portugal? Why not include incident years earlier in other parts of Europe (three years is a lot of time, and people move countries). Then you can generate hundreds or thousands of potential suspects. Can you see how absurd it is?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 06:28:42 PM
Tolerated? &%+((£ How many offenders aren't caught in the UK? Many, but you wouldn't say that's because they've been "tolerated" would you.
Do you have evidence that they were not "tolerated"?
I would say that the investigators on the ground who must have been aware of the existence of these predators ... and if not, why not ... make no mention of investigating if they had a locus in whatever happened to Madeleine McCann.
Far far easier to have a theory in which only Madeleine's parents figure ... totally ignoring and therefore tolerating a predator on the loose.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2015, 06:29:01 PM
Of course they are/were but it wasn't the police who said they were all linked, that was the media and online discussers.
(The incidents, or some of them, were mentioned in the NOTW years ago but I never saw many people discussing what the NOTW had said... until the day the Met made their appeal for information. Then all of a sudden people are saying it's one person who is now another suspect etc.).
I wonder if any of these vile sexual assaults against the children of UK families whilst on holiday were reported in the Portuguese Press - at the time they happened.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 06:40:29 PM
Do you have evidence that they were not "tolerated"?
I would say that the investigators on the ground who must have been aware of the existence of these predators ... and if not, why not ... make no mention of investigating if they had a locus in whatever happened to Madeleine McCann.
Far far easier to have a theory in which only Madeleine's parents figure ... totally ignoring and therefore tolerating a predator on the loose.
Yes, but you do know that only a fraction of police activity is recorded in black and white don't you. They will have discussed, thought about and considered every possible scenario in the hours, days and weeks after the disappearance. If there's one thing that unites policemen in every country it's their desperation, panic and furious activity when a child goes missing, most of which won't ever be recorded. Your relentlessly denigrating narrative about the Portuguese police is the weakest area of your support for Madeleine's parents.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2015, 06:51:06 PM
I know, but there's nothing to link them to PdL, May 3 2007 is there. That's the point. The Met appeal goes back to incident three years earlier. But why stop at incidents three years earlier in Portugal? Why not include incident years earlier in other parts of Europe (three years is a lot of time, and people move countries). Then you can generate hundreds or thousands of potential suspects. Can you see how absurd it is?
Are you actually being serious? Do you really think that so many incidents - all attacks on UK children in their bedrooms, which occurred over the three years prior to Madeleine's abduction - and all within an hour's drive of PdL cannot possibly be related - and that it is absurd to even consider them - even though the perpetrator is still on the loose?
I despair.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 06:53:23 PM
They had other people, British holidaymakers presumably, approaching them after Crimewatch to say something had happened to them. So the British police made the appeal to see if anyone else knew anything. Simple as that. They couldn't ignore what people had told them.
If they didn't think there was a possible link to the Madeleine McCann case they surely would not have discussed these case in the media whilst updating on progress on Op Grange. Do you think if lots of people had contacted them to say they'd been mugged on the Algarve whilst walking back from various nightclubs that the Met would have reported on those too?!
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 06:57:05 PM
Are you actually being serious? Do you really think that so many incidents - all attacks on UK children in their bedrooms, which occurred over the three years prior to Madeleine's abduction - and all within an hour's drive of PdL cannot possibly be related - and that it is absurd to even consider them - even though the perpetrator is still on the loose?
I despair.
Make that two of us.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 06:59:21 PM
Are you actually being serious? Do you really think that so many incidents - all attacks on UK children in their bedrooms, which occurred over the three years prior to Madeleine's abduction - and all within an hour's drive of PdL cannot possibly be related - and that it is absurd to even consider them - even though the perpetrator is still on the loose?
I despair.
Do the Portuguese police involved now think there's a possible link?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 07:04:16 PM
Do the Portuguese police involved now think there's a possible link?
Ask yourself this: has the perpetrator(s) been caught? If not what possible reasons could the Portuguese police have for dismissing any link between these various cases and the Madeleine McCann disappearance, given that we already know they are no longer treating the McCanns as suspects?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: stephen25000 on January 05, 2015, 07:07:28 PM
Are you actually being serious? Do you really think that so many incidents - all attacks on UK children in their bedrooms, which occurred over the three years prior to Madeleine's abduction - and all within an hour's drive of PdL cannot possibly be related - and that it is absurd to even consider them - even though the perpetrator is still on the loose?
I despair.
You want it to be related so it helps the abduction scenario, which you help perpetuate.
However, in reality, no connection has been found whatsoever.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 07:10:33 PM
Ask yourself this: has the perpetrator(s) been caught? If not what possible reasons could the Portuguese police have for dismissing any link between these various cases and the Madeleine McCann disappearance, given that we already know they are no longer treating the McCanns as suspects?
They presumably have seen the actual witness statements from these incidents, and therefore know vastly more about them and alleged perpetrators than we do.
But I only asked are they, and you said why wouldn't they. Do we know if they are?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 07:13:23 PM
They presumably have seen the actual witness statements from these incidents, and therefore know vastly more about them and alleged perpetrators than we do.
I'm sorry but as they have not arrested or charged a perpetrator in either these cases nor the disappearance of Madeleine McCann I don't follow your logic at all.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 07:15:28 PM
I'm sorry but as they have not arrested or charged a perpetrator in either these cases nor the disappearance of Madeleine McCann I don't follow your logic at all.
They may think they're actually isolated incidents.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 05, 2015, 07:21:12 PM
Ask yourself this: has the perpetrator(s) been caught? If not what possible reasons could the Portuguese police have for dismissing any link between these various cases and the Madeleine McCann disappearance, given that we already know they are no longer treating the McCanns as suspects?
They're spending 10 million and a result and closure to this case is expected. To cover all possibilities means no exceptions or limitations or how can you cover all possibilities @)(++(* Everyone's a possible suspect. Time to face the truth.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Montclair on January 05, 2015, 07:29:58 PM
Parents of sexually assaulted children had already contacted the UK police as a result of Madeleine's disappearance - long before Crimewatch.
Some of their 'experiences' are described in Kate's book.
What I would like to know is why these people never reported these cases to the police at the time of these alleged incidents. They seem to only have remembered them or considered them important just after Madeleine's disappearance and others after the Crimewatch appeal. You would have thought they would have gone to the police at the time. So, excuse me, I take these stories with a mountain of salt.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 07:46:09 PM
What I would like to know is why these people never reported these cases to the police at the time of these alleged incidents. They seem to only have remembered them or considered them important just after Madeleine's disappearance and others after the Crimewatch appeal. You would have thought they would have gone to the police at the time. So, excuse me, I take these stories with a mountain of salt.
Several of them WERE reported at the time else how did the British Consul know about them back in 2007?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Carana on January 05, 2015, 07:49:11 PM
They presumably have seen the actual witness statements from these incidents, and therefore know vastly more about them and alleged perpetrators than we do.
But I only asked are they, and you said why wouldn't they. Do we know if they are?
There's no way of knowing how far the PJ attempted to investigate these incidents at the time. It does appear that they found some DNA at one of the crime scenes (unless that was a media misinterpretation of whatever was actually said). If so, then at least one case got that far, but it's still not clear whether it is potentially relevant or not.
Without a specific suspect, the investigations would have been dropped after eight months anyway. Meanwhile, there are families who still have no closure and, until the Madeleine investigation was reopened, didn't have a hope in hell of getting their own cases reviewed.
There's no way of knowing either whether there is any connection to Madeleiene's case or not, whether the same perp assaulted all of the others, or even whether children of other nationalities were also assaulted.
Hopefully, that's what the police are trying to discover.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 08:05:44 PM
There's no way of knowing how far the PJ attempted to investigate these incidents at the time. It does appear that they found some DNA at one of the crime scenes (unless that was a media misinterpretation of whatever was actually said). If so, then at least one case got that far, but it's still not clear whether it is potentially relevant or not.
Without a specific suspect, the investigations would have been dropped after eight months anyway. Meanwhile, there are families who still have no closure and, until the Madeleine investigation was reopened, didn't have a hope in hell of getting their own cases reviewed.
There's no way of knowing either whether there is any connection to Madeleiene's case or not, whether the same perp assaulted all of the others, or even whether children of other nationalities were also assaulted.
Hopefully, that's what the police are trying to discover.
That all makes sense. I hope davel is also reading it 8)--))
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Mr Gray on January 05, 2015, 08:17:25 PM
They've seen the actual statements about these incidents (presumably), not just the Met's interpretation of those incidents.
I'm sorry but you're still not making much sense. How could these statements categorically rule out the possibility of the crimes being linked or relevant to the Madeleine McCann case?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 05, 2015, 08:23:36 PM
That all makes sense. I hope davel is also reading it 8)--))
How come it makes sense when Carana writes it but moments ago you were arguing that the PJ had likely ruled out these cases being linked cos they'd read the statements?!
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 08:30:57 PM
Yes, but you do know that only a fraction of police activity is recorded in black and white don't you. They will have discussed, thought about and considered every possible scenario in the hours, days and weeks after the disappearance. If there's one thing that unites policemen in every country it's their desperation, panic and furious activity when a child goes missing, most of which won't ever be recorded. Your relentlessly denigrating narrative about the Portuguese police is the weakest area of your support for Madeleine's parents.
There is no evidence that ... "They will have discussed, thought about and considered every possible scenario in the hours, days and weeks after the disappearance. If there's one thing that unites policemen in every country it's their desperation, panic and furious activity when a child goes missing, most of which won't ever be recorded."
There is plenty of evidence to the contrary ... Dr Amaral explains in his book why he thought Madeleine McCann's parents were complicit in her disappearance ... and Ricardo Paiva has stated publicly that no other avenues other than that theory were investigated.
The ordinary foot soldiers who did a splendid job ... can only go as far as their leadership directs them ... and it is beyond time for the ineptitude of that leadership to be recognised for what it was and is.
My "relentlessly denigrating narrative" regarding the Amaral investigation is exactly what it is with nothing added and only those failures we do not yet know about omitted.
There is nothing in my "relentlessly denigrating narrative" which cannot be backed up. It is all a matter of record and only the degree to which it harmed the search for Madeleine McCann is open to argument, not the fact that the investigation was fatally flwed from the word go.
** snip from an interview with Stephen Moore; Former FBI Special Agent, Retired.
MOORE: A crime scene in an investigation.
The crime scene is perishable.
The investigation is consumer.
It consumes time, it consumes evidence.
The farther you get from the actual crime, the less chance you have.
If anybody can do it, New Scotland Yard can do it.
I believe it has been so badly botched by the Portuguese. They can't even start with anything that they have. They have to rebuild it from the foundation.
CUOMO: What was so wrong?
MOORE: They did a classic mistake. They decided on a conclusion very early on plus you add to that the basic forensic mistakes.
You add just basic police mistakes.
It's like the Amanda Knox case in Italy.
They screwed it up from the beginning. Now, really, it has to be restarted. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1310/14/nday.04.html
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 08:36:21 PM
I'm sorry but you're still not making much sense. How could these statements categorically rule out the possibility of the crimes being linked or relevant to the Madeleine McCann case?
You're not getting my earlier point either. Every crime in Europe has as much chance of being linked to Madeleine's disappearance. You're too obsessed with Portugal, and think crime or crimes three years earlier may be linked just because they happened in Portugal.
I'm not saying the Portuguese police may have completely ruled out a link, but if they think the incidents aren't linked then it obviously reduces the possibility considerably.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 08:38:32 PM
How come it makes sense when Carana writes it but moments ago you were arguing that the PJ had likely ruled out these cases being linked cos they'd read the statements?!
I didn't say likely, I said possibly.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2015, 08:40:54 PM
What I would like to know is why these people never reported these cases to the police at the time of these alleged incidents. They seem to only have remembered them or considered them important just after Madeleine's disappearance and others after the Crimewatch appeal. You would have thought they would have gone to the police at the time. So, excuse me, I take these stories with a mountain of salt.
Don't be silly. Of course they were reported to The PJ. How else did The PJ get DNA from Semen?
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Lyall on January 05, 2015, 08:44:50 PM
You're not getting my earlier point either. Every crime in Europe has as much chance of being linked to Madeleine's disappearance. You're too obsessed with Portugal, and think crime or crimes three years earlier may be linked just because they happened in Portugal.
I'm not saying the Portuguese police may have completely ruled out a link, but if they think the incidents aren't linked then it obviously reduces the possibility considerably.
I don't follow your reasoning on that.
Madeleine McCann vanished in a Portuguese jurisdiction ... these assaults on children happened in the Algarve at a time which was relevant.
Therefore, it would have been competent and prudent to have looked at them again in 2007 to check for relevance and rule them in or out of the inquiry.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2015, 08:47:17 PM
Okay. The same applies. I will be deleting from now on.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2015, 08:49:15 PM
Madeleine McCann vanished in a Portuguese jurisdiction ... these assaults on children happened in the Algarve at a time which was relevant.
Therefore, it would have been competent and prudent to have looked at them again in 2007 to check for relevance and rule them in or out of the inquiry.
And how would they have done that if they didn't have the perpetrator(s)?
I'll repeat: they know vastly more about those incidents/crimes than we do. We haven't seen statements or any details other than the Met's interpretation (and NOTW article). They're professionals.
Title: Re: Only in America Blog: Madeleine McCann Was Not Abducted
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2015, 09:00:43 PM
And how would they have done that if they didn't have the perpetrator(s)?
I'll repeat: they know vastly more about those incidents/crimes than we do. We haven't seen statements or any details other than the Met's interpretation (and NOTW article). They're professionals.