UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on January 05, 2015, 07:31:50 PM
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Holiday firm leaves resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared
THE holiday company at the centre of the Madeleine McCann case has quit the Portuguese resort where she vanished.
(http://images.dailyexpress.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/Maddy-McCann-Portugal-resort-550204.jpg)
Mark Warner will no longer operate the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz on the Algarve where it struggled to attract bookings following the three-year-old’s abduction in May 2007.
Profits dwindled as British holidaymakers shunned the complex after worldwide media coverage raised safety fears. The club has now been removed from Mark Warner’s website.
A source said: “People feel the resort will become deserted. It is a huge blow.”
One local added: “This place has never been the same since Madeleine. It’s as if a cloud is hanging over it the whole time. British police keep returning and raking it all up again.”
Madeleine went missing after her parents, Gerry and Kate McCann, left their three children in the apartment while they had dinner with friends nearby, checking them every 15 minutes.
(http://images.dailyexpress.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/McCanns-Gerry-and-Kate-238563.jpg)
Officers from the Metropolitan Police’s Operation Grange, who are investigating the mystery, flew out to the Algarve early last month to question witnesses.
They want to establish if there are any inconsistencies in their statements.
As soon as Madeleine went missing,Mark Warner, which built its reputation as a child- friendly holiday company popular with middle-class parents, insisted the “one-off”.
Managing incident was a director David Hopkins said: “Our security is terribly robust.” But a company spokesman admitted: “It is a matter of pub- lic record that bookings were affected.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/550204/Holiday-resort-leaves-disappeared-maddy
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Checking them every 15 minutes ?
No they didn't, even on their own admission.
and the checks were never independently verified.
P.S. A waiter seeing someone leaving a table, is only a waiter seeing someone leaving a table and no more than that.
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As one door closes, another opens (pardon the pun). This is a great opportunity for someone else to make inroads into Luz now that Mark Warner have left.
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As one door closes, another opens (pardon the pun). This is a great opportunity for someone else to make inroads into Luz now that Mark Warner have left.
and who will want to ?
Thomas Cook were supposed to be taking over, but after the departure of the chief executive, there are rumours of trouble with that company.
Also, the 'taint' of PDL with tourists will linger for some time to come.
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and who will want to ?
Thomas Cook were supposed to be taking over, but after the departure of the chief executive, there are rumours of trouble with that company.
Also, the 'taint' of PDL with tourists will linger for some time to come.
I believe it will, Stephen.
I thought that Thomas Cook had already taken over, but if the owners are in trouble as you say, then it is anyone's guess what will happen next.
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I believe it will, Stephen.
I thought that Thomas Cook had already taken over, but if the owners are in trouble as you say, then it is anyone's guess what will happen next.
It is a shame.
From what I've heard it is a very pleasant place to visit.
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So why has it lost so much business...parents fear for safety of their children....looks like people believe the McCanns
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Probably saw what a tatty looking place it was and decided to stay well away.
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I hope to visit Luz and surrounds later this year so am well looking forward to it.
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So why has it lost so much business...parents fear for safety of their children....looks like people believe the McCanns
What a crass comment, but hardly surprising.
If the McCann's had never left their children.....
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So why has it lost so much business...parents fear for safety of their children....looks like people believe the McCanns
An isolated incident does not make for an epidemic. Given events I would say PdL is most probably the safest place in Portugal for children. You only need to view the webcam to see how many families with young children still visit the resort during the school holidays.
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An isolated incident does not make for an epidemic.
I'm afraid it often does...as they say..it takes 20 yrs to build a reputation and 5 minutes to lose it
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An isolated incident does not make for an epidemic. Given events I would say PdL is most probably the safest place in Portugal for children. You only need to view the webcam to see how many families with young children still visit the resort.
It most probably is one of the safest places now. Not a place any criminal or Weirdo, would want to be near now.
It is apparently a lovely little place and it would be such a shame if it could not be enjoyed again as it was, by both, tourists and the people who live and work in PDL.
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I'm afraid it often does...as they say..it takes 20 yrs to build a reputation and 5 minutes to lose it
Courtesy of the McCann's.
They have a lot to answer for.
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Courtesy of the McCann's.
They have a lot to answer for.
It was not the McCanns that caused the tourists, distrust of PDL, It was the unexplained(as yet) disappearance of their daughter.
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Look to the Exchange Rate. This has seriously affected all holiday destinations throughout Europe.
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Look to the Exchange Rate. This has seriously affected all holiday destinations throughout Europe.
Has it really? Well maybe that is another explanation of why there are less bookings in PDl.
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Has it really? Well maybe that is another explanation of why there are less bookings in PDl.
It's an important point, Anna. I should know. I manage a Holiday Property here in France, and bookings have dropped drastically over the last six years.
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I hope to visit Luz and surrounds later this year so am well looking forward to it.
It is a lovely, quiet little place John. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I was there last about a year and a half ago and I was heartened to see so many families enjoying themselves in what they obviously still believe is a safe holiday destination.
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It is a lovely, quiet little place John. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I was there last about a year and a half ago and I was heartened to see so many families enjoying themselves in what they obviously still believe is a safe holiday destination.
It is a safe holiday destination now. Probably none safer. And I said that seven years ago.
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It is a lovely, quiet little place John. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I was there last about a year and a half ago and I was heartened to see so many families enjoying themselves in what they obviously still believe is a safe holiday destination.
Am pleased to agree with Faith.
It is a very nice little place and pretty well devoid of yobs. I never saw any
Pleasantly quiet and really a family resort. I never felt any danger at all on either occasion that I was there.
In my experience, which is somewhat limited cos we were only there for a few hours this last time, the locals are not as friiendly as they were. Someone has been stirring things IMO.
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Thanks gals. I have been trying to schedule something for a while but the time just wasnt right last year. There are so many things that I want to photograph and video too. I also want to find out what the locals really think about what has been going on these last seven years. I'm fed up reading the sanctimonious crap we are served up by the msm every other week, it's time we knew the truth.
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Well.. They had quite a few attacks on British children in their holiday rooms even with parents present and sleeping in the apartments.. This person was never caught.. I am afraid I don't see it as safe at all..
Amaral had the DNA of this person and this was never previously checked against the DNA found in Madeleine's room.. And you all say it is safe??
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English newspapers Sadie.
It's reduced now but the drip-drip of Portugal bashing has continued since 2007.
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You don't think the periodic attempts to link every paedophile in Europe to Praia da Luz has had an effect?
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Plus the British police decided to dig holes around town just as the tourist season was starting. This obviously has an effect.
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It is a shame.
From what I've heard it is a very pleasant place to visit.
We might be pleasantly surprised and someone will take it over, before the start of the next season.
Fingers crossed, it will be once again, that sleepy little fishing village that attracts families.
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Plus the British police decided to dig holes around town just as the tourist season was starting. This obviously has an effect.
Do you think UK police should not be investigating?
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You don't think the periodic attempts to link every paedophile in Europe to Praia da Luz has had an effect?
There are hundreds of thousands of paedophiles in Europe, please don't be absurd.
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There are hundreds of thousands of paedophiles in Europe, please don't be absurd.
Where did you get the data?
Or is that just a guess?
Have you accounted for variations in age of consent across Europe?
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Do you think UK police should not be investigating?
Random digging over 7 years later, what did they expect to find ?
........and using dogs. Whatever next ?
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Plus the British police decided to dig holes around town just as the tourist season was starting. This obviously has an effect.
Do you think the locals would have objected if it had been one of their own children who was missing?
IMO the a.n.t.i Brit. graffitti daubed round PdL would be enough to make some people feel PdL was no longer a welcoming place for British families. and so cross it off their list.
A case of 'shooting themselves in the foot' big time when it comes to attracting UK tourists IMO.
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Shame everytime you google Praia Da Luz you just get loads of stuff about the McCanns case.....nothing about what a lovely place it was... 7 years ago.
I remember watching one of those T.V. programmes like Place in the sun or similar and they had PDL on at the time, and I thought what a lovely place to retire too, they showed a nice villa looking across the sea, the town and the restaurants, and I remember thinking to myself yes i could live there...it looked quiet and clean....
Little did they know how these lovely town would be ruined....
Its tainted all the time. Just when you think its all calming down they bring Scotland Yard in to dig it all up again.
How can people in PDL ever get shot of this case....I am sure ABSOLUTELY sure if anyone of them had known or suspected who had done this crime they would have dobbed them in some how.......but NOTHING, no one has come forward pointing fingers, and that is what I find so odd.
You would want it over and done with, so you could then have some peace living in the sun...not the constant reminder of what happened 7 years ago......
I feel so sorry for the people living there.......OF COURSE this case must have had an impact on their economy.
Its time this case was put to bed, nothing is ever going to come of it, its all too late now....Maybe one day when no one is looking something might be revealed...but i am not holding my breath.
I think she is Gone, baby gone.....sadly.
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Thanks gals. I have been trying to schedule something for a while but the time just wasnt right last year. There are so many things that I want to photograph and video too. I also want to find out what the locals really think about what has been going on these last seven years. I'm fed up reading the sanctimonious crap we are served up by the msm every other week, it's time we knew the truth.
The locals are on the whole unwilling to talk about the disappearance, and who can blame them. I did however have a conversation with the manager of Chaplins and let's just say the McCanns had few supporters within the little village even at that time ( June 2009 ).
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Look to the Exchange Rate. This has seriously affected all holiday destinations throughout Europe.
Of course it did, plus the more general economic downturn.
Madeleine's disappearance no doubt did have an effect in the beginning with some tourists cancelling, whether that was really due to fear or the hassle of being surrounded by the media presence. At the same time, the media presence would have compensated for loss of income from any tourist cancellations, plus the consequent "Maddie tourists".
The Algarve as a whole seems to be doing quite well at the moment:
Algarve tourism enjoys best year in recent times
in Algarve · 31-12-2014 13:08:00 · 0 Comments
During the first ten months of 2014 the number of people spending a night in the Algarve exceeded overall figures from the whole of 2013, making 2014 one of the best years in recent times.
This is according to figures from the ten months ending October 2014, recently released by the National Statistics Institute (INE).
“It is confirmation of the best predictions for the destination. In 2014 we have achieved the best numbers in recent years and the Algarve continues to be the driving force of tourism in Portugal”, said Desidério Silva, president of the RTA regional Algarve tourism board, commenting on the news.
(...)
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/algarve-tourism-enjoys-best-year-in-recent-times/33538
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Plus the British police decided to dig holes around town just as the tourist season was starting. This obviously has an effect.
True, but there were also substantial construction works going on in the village in 2007. Some of the locals appear to have feared that the roads were going to be dug up all over again, which didn't actually happen as far as I'm aware.
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Shame everytime you google Praia Da Luz you just get loads of stuff about the McCanns case.....nothing about what a lovely place it was... 7 years ago.
I remember watching one of those T.V. programmes like Place in the sun or similar and they had PDL on at the time, and I thought what a lovely place to retire too, they showed a nice villa looking across the sea, the town and the restaurants, and I remember thinking to myself yes i could live there...it looked quiet and clean....
Little did they know how these lovely town would be ruined....
Its tainted all the time. Just when you think its all calming down they bring Scotland Yard in to dig it all up again.
How can people in PDL ever get shot of this case....I am sure ABSOLUTELY sure if anyone of them had known or suspected who had done this crime they would have dobbed them in some how.......but NOTHING, no one has come forward pointing fingers, and that is what I find so odd.
You would want it over and done with, so you could then have some peace living in the sun...not the constant reminder of what happened 7 years ago......
I feel so sorry for the people living there.......OF COURSE this case must have had an impact on their economy.
Its time this case was put to bed, nothing is ever going to come of it, its all too late now....Maybe one day when no one is looking something might be revealed...but i am not holding my breath.
I think she is Gone, baby gone.....sadly.
As has already been pointed out ... the world wide recession resulting in the continuing effect on the euro zone and the exchange rate have done little to assist the tourist economies of many countries ... not only Portugal ... and perhaps the resort of Praia Da Luz has not remained in splendid isolation from that.
The sentiment you express "It's time this case was put to bed" is one no doubt shared by the perpetrator/s of the crime against Madeleine ... and is indeed part of the problem ... the case was "put to bed" by the Portuguese authorities in 2008, perhaps in the hope it would meekly "go away".
Her parents simply refused to allow that and their campaign to find out what happened to their daughter has been the excuse for campaigns of demonisation and vilification against them ever since under the risible guise of pseudo "justice for Madeleine" sentiment.
Just as you opine "Little did they know how these lovely town would be ruined....Its tainted all the time"
I could add the rejoinder
... little did innocent holidaymakers know the dark underbelly of drugs, drug related crime, burglaries, assaults on children and the British gift of numerous itinerant paedophiles who seemed to be attracted to this apparently sleepy little town which was and is marketed as the perfect holiday venue for families with their children.
The people of PDL can "get shot of this case" when a satisfactory investigation is carried out into what happened to Madeleine McCann and the conclusion whatever that may be is duly ascertained.
I find the extraordinary ease with which Madeleine McCann has been written off by some people reprehensible and as long as there are viable avenues for investigation ... which have been deliberately ignored in the past ... she has the right, as a victim of crime and as a British citizen to have her case investigated until all those avenues have been exhausted.
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Can I remind members that the McCanns could have kept the case open in 2008 but chose not to.
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Do you think the locals would have objected if it had been one of their own children who was missing?
IMO the a.n.t.i Brit. graffitti daubed round PdL would be enough to make some people feel PdL was no longer a welcoming place for British families. and so cross it off their list.
A case of 'shooting themselves in the foot' big time when it comes to attracting UK tourists IMO.
Absolutely.
I do not think the campaigning residents of Praia Da Luz ... of whom many of the most vociferous are ex pats ... have done the village any good at all.
Brushing a problem under the carpet doesn't make it go away and does no good at all ... attempting to resolve it with a good grace always reflects well.
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Can I remind members that the McCanns could have kept the case open in 2008 but chose not to.
When Kate refused to answer the simplest questions in 2007 and went home afterwards that effectively signed the death knell for the case and who would blame the Portuguese. If the parents of a disappeared, possibly abducted child, couldn't be bothered to hang around...
I came across this comment from the Mirror article. David Hopkins, the managing director, said at the time: “Our security is terribly robust.”
What security??? Should have been 'terribly rubbish'!
* A absence of appropriate outside lighting (later improved)
* No CCTV
* No security guards
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-holiday-firm-pulls-4915169
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Perhaps he thought security outside the holiday complex perimeter was not the company's responsibility
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When Kate refused to answer the simplest questions in 2007 and went home afterwards that effectively signed the death knell for the case and who would blame the Portuguese. If the parents of a disappeared, possibly abducted child, couldn't be bothered to hang around...
I came across this comment from the Mirror article. David Hopkins, the managing director, said at the time: “Our security is terribly robust.”
What security??? Should have been 'terribly rubbish'!
* A absence of appropriate outside lighting (later improved)
* No CCTV
* No security guards
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-holiday-firm-pulls-4915169
However, it was very safe to leave children by themselves in an unlocked apartment.
Nice.
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snipped.......
I came across this comment from the Mirror article. David Hopkins, the managing director, said at the time: “Our security is terribly robust.”
What security??? Should have been 'terribly rubbish'!
* A absence of appropriate outside lighting (later improved)
* No CCTV
* No security guards
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-holiday-firm-pulls-4915169
If you add to that the decision of Tour operators to keep schtum about the attacks on UK children - as well as the burglaries - then I think their failure to provide increased security in view of that decision was an absolute disgrace.
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As has already been pointed out ... the world wide recession resulting in the continuing effect on the euro zone and the exchange rate have done little to assist the tourist economies of many countries ... not only Portugal ... and perhaps the resort of Praia Da Luz has not remained in splendid isolation from that.
The sentiment you express "It's time this case was put to bed" is one no doubt shared by the perpetrator/s of the crime against Madeleine ... and is indeed part of the problem ... the case was "put to bed" by the Portuguese authorities in 2008, perhaps in the hope it would meekly "go away".
Her parents simply refused to allow that and their campaign to find out what happened to their daughter has been the excuse for campaigns of demonisation and vilification against them ever since under the risible guise of pseudo "justice for Madeleine" sentiment.
Just as you opine "Little did they know how these lovely town would be ruined....Its tainted all the time"
I could add the rejoinder
... little did innocent holidaymakers know the dark underbelly of drugs, drug related crime, burglaries, assaults on children and the British gift of numerous itinerant paedophiles who seemed to be attracted to this apparently sleepy little town which was and is marketed as the perfect holiday venue for families with their children.
The people of PDL can "get shot of this case" when a satisfactory investigation is carried out into what happened to Madeleine McCann and the conclusion whatever that may be is duly ascertained.
I find the extraordinary ease with which Madeleine McCann has been written off by some people reprehensible and as long as there are viable avenues for investigation ... which have been deliberately ignored in the past ... she has the right, as a victim of crime and as a British citizen to have her case investigated until all those avenues have been exhausted.
Great post Brietta. Says it all.
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Can I remind members that the McCanns could have kept the case open in 2008 but chose not to.
If any of the arguidos could have provided evidence within x days that specific diligences had not been carried out which could have overturned the judicial ruling.
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I could add the rejoinder
... little did innocent holidaymakers know the dark underbelly of drugs, drug related crime, burglaries, assaults on children and the British gift of numerous itinerant paedophiles who seemed to be attracted to this apparently sleepy little town which was and is marketed as the perfect holiday venue for families with their children.
Rhetoric like this is the very opposite of that needed to help. You and the newspapers are actually allied in working against Operation Grange's stated objective.
British police can't do a thing in Portugal on their own as you know. The xenophobia is hardly going to help them is it.
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Rhetoric like this is the very opposite of that needed to help. You and the newspapers are actually allied in working against Operation Grange's stated objective.
Quite right Lyall.
However, it's what has come to be expected from certain mccann supporters, and is no more than deflection in their tactics to involve a paedophile in this case, to blame for Madeleine's disappearance, when no such evidence has been shown to exist.
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Quite right Lyall.
However, it's what has come to be expected from certain mccann supporters, and is no more than deflection in their tactics to involve a paedophile in this case, to blame for Madeleine's disappearance, when no such evidence has been shown to exist.
You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment 8)-)))
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You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment 8)-)))
Indeed. 8((()*/
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As has already been pointed out ... the world wide recession resulting in the continuing effect on the euro zone and the exchange rate have done little to assist the tourist economies of many countries ... not only Portugal ... and perhaps the resort of Praia Da Luz has not remained in splendid isolation from that.
The sentiment you express "It's time this case was put to bed" is one no doubt shared by the perpetrator/s of the crime against Madeleine ... and is indeed part of the problem ... the case was "put to bed" by the Portuguese authorities in 2008, perhaps in the hope it would meekly "go away".
Her parents simply refused to allow that and their campaign to find out what happened to their daughter has been the excuse for campaigns of demonisation and vilification against them ever since under the risible guise of pseudo "justice for Madeleine" sentiment.
Just as you opine "Little did they know how these lovely town would be ruined....Its tainted all the time"
I could add the rejoinder
... little did innocent holidaymakers know the dark underbelly of drugs, drug related crime, burglaries, assaults on children and the British gift of numerous itinerant paedophiles who seemed to be attracted to this apparently sleepy little town which was and is marketed as the perfect holiday venue for families with their children.
The people of PDL can "get shot of this case" when a satisfactory investigation is carried out into what happened to Madeleine McCann and the conclusion whatever that may be is duly ascertained.
I find the extraordinary ease with which Madeleine McCann has been written off by some people reprehensible and as long as there are viable avenues for investigation ... which have been deliberately ignored in the past ... she has the right, as a victim of crime and as a British citizen to have her case investigated until all those avenues have been exhausted.
LOL your aving a larf arnt you?
How many detectives have been used even via the McCanns....sometimes you have to CLOSE a case thats why they call them COLD CASES dont yer know.........
There is simply nothing to find......if there was it would be found by now.....
Give me a break there are loads of cases NEVER SOLVED, look at Susy Lamplugh, and the chef who went missing, there are lots and lots..what makes this one child so special above all others...like Ben Needham for example.
The case needs to be closed now well it was wasnt it.....its done its course, and hopefully one day when no one is actually looking something will turn up, but for now after years of trying NOTHING has.
Some people live in cloud cuckoo land if they think this ongoing case hasnt had an impact on this little town.....
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LOL your aving a larf arnt you?
How many detectives have been used even via the McCanns....sometimes you have to CLOSE a case thats why they call them COLD CASES dont yer know.........
There is simply nothing to find......if there was it would be found by now.....
Give me a break there are loads of cases NEVER SOLVED, look at Susy Lamplugh, and the chef who went missing, there are lots and lots..what makes this one child so special above all others...like Ben Needham for example.
The case needs to be closed now well it was wasnt it.....its done its course, and hopefully one day when no one is actually looking something will turn up, but for now after years of trying NOTHING has.
Some people live in cloud cuckoo land if they think this ongoing case hasnt had an impact on this little town.....
Cloud cuckoo land, or hellbent on defending the mccanns, no matter what. &%+((£
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Rhetoric like this is the very opposite of that needed to help. You and the newspapers are actually allied in working against Operation Grange's stated objective.
British police can't do a thing in Portugal on their own as you know. The xenophobia is hardly going to help them is it.
Excuse me ... what is xenophobic about the truth?
Are you saying these things did not happen?
It seems to me sentiments like yours have been nourished over the past seven years, specifically to hinder any proper investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
Perhaps the miasma hanging over Praia Da Luz from that attitude is one of the shadows hanging over it and affecting their tourist business.
All tourists everywhere are cash cows ... maybe the Brits who are allegedly in avoidance of the venue ... simply do not appreciate having it spelt out to them so succinctly.
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If you add to that the decision of Tour operators to keep schtum about the attacks on UK children - as well as the burglaries - then I think their failure to provide increased security in view of that decision was an absolute disgrace.
Absolutely, both the owners (Ocean Club) and agents (Mark Warner) were very aware of a problem but choose to ignore it for commercial reasons. Even the nannies were concerned about strangers wandering around the gardens during daylight hours but nothing was done about it.
I fear the 'cloud hanging over Luz' as the article put it will forever taint the resort until Madeleine is found and that knowledge, terrible though it is, is what has enraged the locals.
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Excuse me ... what is xenophobic about the truth?
Are you saying these things did not happen?
It seems to me sentiments like yours have been nourished over the past seven years, specifically to hinder any proper investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
Perhaps the miasma hanging over Praia Da Luz from that attitude is one of the shadows hanging over it and affecting their tourist business.
All tourists everywhere are cash cows ... maybe the Brits who are allegedly in avoidance of the venue ... simply do not appreciate having it spelt out to them so succinctly.
It is Exaggeration with a massively huge capital E.
But you're not alone; Summers and Swan also indulged in it to sell their book.
And newspapers have of course indulged in it to sell papers.
It's very unlikely to be helping relations between the police.
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LOL your aving a larf arnt you?
How many detectives have been used even via the McCanns....sometimes you have to CLOSE a case thats why they call them COLD CASES dont yer know.........
There is simply nothing to find......if there was it would be found by now.....
Give me a break there are loads of cases NEVER SOLVED, look at Susy Lamplugh, and the chef who went missing, there are lots and lots..what makes this one child so special above all others...like Ben Needham for example.
The case needs to be closed now well it was wasnt it.....its done its course, and hopefully one day when no one is actually looking something will turn up, but for now after years of trying NOTHING has.
Some people live in cloud cuckoo land if they think this ongoing case hasnt had an impact on this little town.....
No ... I am not "aving a larf " ... I find nothing even slightly amusing about a missing child.
Of course Madeleine McCann's case has had an impact on the little town of Praia Da Luz ... the sheer nastiness of some of the residents, mainly ex pat, which has been unashamedly portrayed ... as they actively sought out media coverage to display ... has perhaps had an even more lasting impact.
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Absolutely, both the owners (Ocean Club) and agents (Mark Warner) were very aware of a problem but choose to ignore it for commercial reasons. Even the nannies were concerned about strangers wandering around the gardens during daylight hours but nothing was done about it.
I fear the 'cloud hanging over Luz' as the article put it will forever taint the resort until Madeleine is found and that knowledge, terrible though it is, is what has enraged the locals.
Hardly.
The cloud hanging over PDL is due to the events of May 2007.
No direct connection has been made with the burglaries and Madeleine's disappearance.
Any attempt to link them ias pure supposition.
As to Mark Warner's , they offered facilities to the mccanns for childcare.
They didn't take them up.
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It is Exaggeration with a massively huge capital E.
But you're not alone; Summers and Swan also indulged in it to sell their book.
And newspapers have of course indulged in it to sell papers.
It's very unlikely to be helping relations between the police.
You have the exact same mindset as those in PdL and Portugal generally who would like to brush all these inconvenient truths under the carpet and just pretend none of it ever happened. Shame on you all.
It's deeply ironic that many people who think like you also consider themselves champions of historic child abuse victims and who actively campaign to get hundreds of these allegations brought out into the open to be investigated in this country. Nothing like double standards, eh?
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They failed to mention that Portugal was going through a recession.
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They failed to mention that Portugal was going through a recession.
All of Europe's holiday destinations are having a lean time, due to The Exchange Rate.
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It is Exaggeration with a massively huge capital E.
But you're not alone; Summers and Swan also indulged in it to sell their book.
And newspapers have of course indulged in it to sell papers.
It's very unlikely to be helping relations between the police.
Your analysis is flawed ... just as the way of coping with the disappearance of a child in a supposedly 'family friendly' holiday resort was.
This disaster was absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine McCann. She is the victim.
Had those reliant on the tourist industry dealt with the issue in a more positive manner the alleged impact on business might have been less severe.
For example ... in the months after Madeleine's disappearance ... it was a mistake to vandalise and rip down posters featuring her image and requesting information.
It was also a mistake for a vocal few to shout abuse at the McCanns in the streets of Praia Da Luz.
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You have the exact same mindset as those in PdL and Portugal generally who would like to brush all these inconvenient truths under the carpet and just pretend none of it ever happened. Shame on you all.
It's deeply ironic that many people who think like you also consider themselves champions of historic child abuse victims and who actively campaign to get hundreds of these allegations brought out into the open to be investigated in this country. Nothing like double standards, eh?
That's all good rhetoric but you ignored my final sentence: [Exaggeration] is very unlikely to be helping relations between the police.
That surely is your biggest concern?
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Your analysis is flawed ... just as the way of coping with the disappearance of a child in a supposedly 'family friendly' holiday resort was.
This disaster was absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine McCann. She is the victim.
Had those reliant on the tourist industry dealt with the issue in a more positive manner the alleged impact on business might have been less severe.
For example ... in the months after Madeleine's disappearance ... it was a mistake to vandalise and rip down posters featuring her image and requesting information.
It was also a mistake for a vocal few to shout abuse at the McCanns in the streets of Praia Da Luz.
The 'family friendly resort' meant people there could take advantage of the services offered.
The mccanns didn't.
and can you guarantee the security of any place 100 % ?
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That's all good rhetoric but you ignored my final sentence: [Exaggeration] is very unlikely to be helping relations between the police.
That surely is your biggest concern?
It's exaggeration is it? Who's the judge of that? You? So in order not to upset the PT police it would be better to underplay crimes that have taken place on their soil that might have a bearing on this case, is that your view?
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It's exaggeration is it? Who's the judge of that? You? So in order not to upset the PT police it would be better to underplay crimes that have taken place on their soil that might have a bearing on this case, is that your view?
No, no. It's better not to keep insulting their country by exaggerating the issues faced in Portugal, because as we well know those issues are faced in every country.
I would invite you to look at the newspaper headlines that accompanied the press announcements of the Summers and Swan book.
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No, no. It's better not to keep insulting their country by exaggerating the issues faced in Portugal, because as we well know those issues are faced in every country.
Who is insulting Portugal? Who is exaggerating? Who has said that Portugal's issues with crime are worse than those here?
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For example ... in the months after Madeleine's disappearance ... it was a mistake to vandalise and rip down posters featuring her image and requesting information.
Two years later 8(0(*
See, you're exaggerating.
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Two years later 8(0(*
See, you're exaggerating.
Why do you insist on 'lifting' an isolated sentence at a time from my posts? If you feel you must continue doing that, please desist from answering at all.
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Telegraph: September 9th
Madeleine: if only the McCanns had known about the Algarve
Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan
The online article appears to have gone down the memory hole now, and no wonder.
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Pulling down and/or vandalising Madeleine posters was undoubtedly the work of a very tiny minority within the pueblo and was very wrong imo. The heckling was a consequence of msm reporting including Sky who were reporting speculations as fact.
Had OC and/or MW provided a single night watchman I doubt we would be here today discussing a missing child.
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Telegraph: September 9th
Madeleine: if only the McCanns had known about the Algarve
Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan
The online article appears to have gone down the memory hole now, and no wonder.
and we know how good the S and S book was. *&*%£
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Pulling down and/or vandalising Madeleine posters was undoubtedly the work of a very tiny minority within the pueblo and was very wrong imo. The heckling was a consequence of msm reporting including Sky who were reporting speculations as fact.
Had OC and/or MW provided a single night watchman I doubt we would be here today discussing a missing child.
Yet the mccanns were offered services.
They declined.
Why was that do you think John ?
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Yet the mccanns were offered services.
They declined.
Why was that do you think John ?
Cost possibly if a baby sitter was required? On the other hand, hasn't it been said that getting three sleeping children from the crèche above OC main reception the several hundred metres back to the apartment would have been a bit of an ordeal every night and especially so if the parents were tired and slightly intoxicated?
Remembering that they didn't go back to the Millennium Restaurant because it was felt that it too was just a tad too far to have to go with three young ones in tow each morning. If I'm honest I wouldn't blame them since when you go on holiday with young children you expect the facilities to be on hand and not hundreds of metres away.
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Cost possibly if a baby sitter was required? On the other hand, hasn't it been said that getting three sleeping children from the crèche above OC main reception the several hundred metres back to the apartment would have been a bit of an ordeal every night and especially so if the parents were tired and slightly intoxicated?
Remembering that they didn't go back to the Millennium Restaurant because it was felt that it too was just a tad too far to have to go with three young ones in tow each morning. If I'm honest I wouldn't blame them since when you go on holiday with young children you expect the facilities to be on hand and not hundreds of metres away.
Plenty of the other guests managed though, including most of their friends.
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Plenty of the other guests managed though, including most of their friends.
None of The McCann friends used The Night Creche, or had three children. Did any other Ocean Club Guests with three children use The Night Creche?
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None of The McCann friends used The Night Creche, or had three children. Did any other Ocean Club Guests with three children use The Night Creche?
True - I was thinking more of the Millennium restaurant and breakfast
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True - I was thinking more of the Millennium restaurant and breakfast
Sorry. I jumped to a conclusion.
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Cost possibly if a baby sitter was required? On the other hand, hasn't it been said that getting three sleeping children from the crèche above OC main reception the several hundred metres back to the apartment would have been a bit of an ordeal every night and especially so if the parents were tired and slightly intoxicated?
Remembering that they didn't go back to the Millennium Restaurant because it was felt that it too was just a tad too far to have to go with three young ones in tow each morning. If I'm honest I wouldn't blame them since when you go on holiday with young children you expect the facilities to be on hand and not hundreds of metres away.
The spread out nature of the accommodation in Praia Da Luz did give it particular problems.
If a risk assessment had been carried out for apartment 5a, I am sure the deficiencies of the accommodation would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
(a) the isolated front door
(b) the high, overhanging trees at the front giving plenty of cover
(c) poor lighting, exacerbated at one time by a broken security light.
(d) easy public access to the property from the main road front, side and the lane at the back
(e) patio doors which did not lock from the outside
(f) insecurity of front door keys
I wonder how aware the holiday party were that not all the accommodation around them was part of a holiday complex but private residences? A non sequitur perhaps, but not realising the open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard.
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The spread out nature of the accommodation in Praia Da Luz did give it particular problems.
If a risk assessment had been carried out for apartment 5a, I am sure the deficiencies of the accommodation would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
(a) the isolated front door
(b) the high, overhanging trees at the front giving plenty of cover
(c) poor lighting, exacerbated at one time by a broken security light.
(d) easy public access to the property from the main road front, side and the lane at the back
(e) patio doors which did not lock from the outside
(f) insecurity of front door keys
I wonder how aware the holiday party were that not all the accommodation around them was part of a holiday complex but private residences? A non sequitur perhaps, but not realising the open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard.
Very well put together, Brietta.
Not forgetting, the shutters that did not lock down to make the window area secure.
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Very well put together, Brietta.
Not forgetting, the shutters that did not lock down to make the window area secure.
I disagree.
The key factor that's missing is the parents selfishishness in not wanting the children present. I also posted this last night but it seems a moderator has removed it. What forum rules does this break?
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I disagree.
The key factor that's missing is the parents selfishishness in not wanting the children present. I also posted this last night but it seems a moderator has removed it. What forum rules does this break?
Sorry but I cannot answer that. Was it perhaps, Off topic?
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Rhetoric like this is the very opposite of that needed to help. You and the newspapers are actually allied in working against Operation Grange's stated objective.
British police can't do a thing in Portugal on their own as you know. The xenophobia is hardly going to help them is it.
Maybe that's the point Lyall.
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Sorry but I cannot answer that. Was it perhaps, Off topic?
Is it off topic?
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I disagree.
The key factor that's missing is the parents selfishishness in not wanting the children present. I also posted this last night but it seems a moderator has removed it. What forum rules does this break?
I would say such a remark is off-topic because it is a subjective judgment on parenting choices and the reasons for those choices without a shred of verifiable evidence to back it up.
No one knows what the reasons were for choosing to use crèche facilities or clubs during the holiday.
The suggestion of "selfishness" as the motive is just subjective guesswork.
Nothing more.
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Is it off topic?
IMO, Yes.
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So is it to be accepted without debate that "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard"?
IMO the parents selfishness in not wanting the children present could be an equally valid reason for leaving them in the apartment but it seems when put as a counter argument to "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard" cries of off topic arise, posts are removed and it remains a given that their guard was lowered when the facts may actually be that they just didn't want the kids there.
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So is it to be accepted without debate that "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard"?
IMO the parents selfishness in not wanting the children present could be an equally valid reason for leaving them in the apartment but it seems when put as a counter argument to "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard" cries of off topic arise, posts are removed and it remains a given that their guard was lowered when the facts may actually be that they just didn't want the kids there.
What do you mean "the parents didn't want their kids there"? Maybe they wanted their kids to get a good night's sleep and not have to stay up well past their bedtimes listening to adults drone on for hours? What bloody selfish b........s!
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So is it to be accepted without debate that "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard"?
IMO the parents selfishness in not wanting the children present could be an equally valid reason for leaving them in the apartment but it seems when put as a counter argument to "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard" cries of off topic arise, posts are removed and it remains a given that their guard was lowered when the facts may actually be that they just didn't want the kids there.
You must remember that the others in the group did much the same, although The Paynes had an alarm.
One thing that has never been brought up is how many other parents on holiday that week left their children under similar circumstances at night.
We know that some made use of the evening services, but did anyone else leave their children unattended of a similar age in an unlocked apartment?
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What do you mean "the parents didn't want their kids there"? Maybe they wanted their kids to get a good night's sleep and not have to stay up well past their bedtimes listening to adults drone on for hours? What bloody selfish b......s!
In that case it's perfectly reasonable for the parents to dine earlier, then later in the evening stay in the apartment actually looking after the children but that's not what they chose is it? They chose to exclude the children from their activity.
Common sense would tell anybody that children being left unattended is potentially more harmful to them than the child having a late night so please don't attempt to dress their actions up as selfless.
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You must remember that the others in the group did much the same, although The Paynes had an alarm.
One thing that has never been brought up is how many other parents on holiday that week left their children under similar circumstances at night.
We know that some made use of the evening services, but did anyone else leave their children unattended of a similar age in an unlocked apartment?
In that case it's collective selfishness from this particular group of people. What we do know is that other children were present with their parents and they did not go missing.
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You must remember that the others in the group did much the same, although The Paynes had an alarm.
One thing that has never been brought up is how many other parents on holiday that week left their children under similar circumstances at night.
We know that some made use of the evening services, but did anyone else leave their children unattended of a similar age in an unlocked apartment?
I think that uniquely of all the accommodation the position and layout of apartment 5a lent itself to being entered by an unlocked patio door which was in close proximity to the tapas restaurant.
I think another issue would be if they had been made aware of the incidence of burglaries in that apartment block and the assaults on British children ... would any of them have left their children alone for a second, baby listening device or not?
Not so much the question of security in the resort, but maybe a greater awareness of the difficulties associated with the layout and difficulty of access to resort facilities highlighted by Madeleine's case may have led to holidaymakers looking for a more family friendly resort.
It is my opinion this one gives particular problems for families with three or four young children.
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In that case it's collective selfishness from this particular group of people. What we do know is that other children were present with their parents and they did not go missing.
Isn't one enough?
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I think that uniquely of all the accommodation the position and layout of apartment 5a lent itself to being entered by an unlocked patio door which was in close proximity to the tapas restaurant.
I think another issue would be if they had been made aware of the incidence of burglaries in that apartment block and the assaults on British children ... would any of them have left their children alone for a second, baby listening device or not?
Not so much the question of security in the resort, but maybe a greater awareness of the difficulties associated with the layout and difficulty of access to resort facilities highlighted by Madeleine's case may have led to holidaymakers looking for a more family friendly resort.
It is my opinion this one gives particular problems for families with three or four young children.
The apartment may have had a certain uniqueness but no one insisted that they should leave the patio door unlocked. Did they leave it unlocked in the daytime when they were out?
Is there any suggestion that previous tenants did the same thing and left the apartment unlocked while they were out at night?
I can imagine that Warner must have been absolutely amazed to learn that the place was unlocked.
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In that case it's perfectly reasonable for the parents to dine earlier, then later in the evening stay in the apartment actually looking after the children but that's not what they chose is it? They chose to exclude the children from their activity.
Common sense would tell anybody that children being left unattended is potentially more harmful to them than the child having a late night so please don't attempt to dress their actions up as selfless.
So, in your opinion a child tucked up asleep in bed in what seems to be a safe, tranquil environment whilst its parents are 50 metres away is at greater risk than one awake late in the evening, by the side of the pool and in a public place but with its parents close by (albeit in a group of other adults all socialising)? I don't know you might be right, it would be interesting to see the stats on that. I think the McCanns and their friends chose an option that they thought would suit everyone best. It wasn't (IMO) about selfishly disregarding the kids wants and needs, though of course you will choose to see it otherwise.
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The spread out nature of the accommodation in Praia Da Luz did give it particular problems.
If a risk assessment had been carried out for apartment 5a, I am sure the deficiencies of the accommodation would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
(a) the isolated front door
(b) the high, overhanging trees at the front giving plenty of cover
(c) poor lighting, exacerbated at one time by a broken security light.
(d) easy public access to the property from the main road front, side and the lane at the back
(e) patio doors which did not lock from the outside
(f) insecurity of front door keys
I wonder how aware the holiday party were that not all the accommodation around them was part of a holiday complex but private residences? A non sequitur perhaps, but not realising the open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard.
In view of the thread title do you mean that in your opinion these were contributory factors in Mark Warner Ltd's decision to cease management of The Ocean Club? If not what was the purpose of bringing them up?
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The apartment may have had a certain uniqueness but no one insisted that they should leave the patio door unlocked. Did they leave it unlocked in the daytime when they were out?
Is there any suggestion that previous tenants did the same thing and left the apartment unlocked while they were out at night?
I can imagine that Warner must have been absolutely amazed to learn that the place was unlocked.
Probably that would be a fair assumption to be made by an observer or a burglar ... that the patio door was locked ... making the probable entry point the front door ... using a key which could have come into his/her possession in a number of ways.
Anyway ... I think you are missing the point here ... it doesn't matter what previous tenants may or may not have done ... it matters terribly what an intruder to the apartment did.
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No, I think you are missing the point - of all the tenants to occupy 5A, only the McCanns lost a child through leaving their apartment unlocked.
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No, I think you are missing the point - of all the tenants to occupy 5A, only the McCanns lost a child through leaving their apartment unlocked.
Don't you mean - of all the tenants to occupy 5A only the McCanns lost a child?
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Don't you mean - of all the tenants to occupy 5A only the McCanns lost a child?
OK, if you want to quibble ?{)(** But still left unlocked. Did previous tenants take the same risks ?
( A rhetorical question that I don't suppose anyone can answer)
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In hindsight, 5A was the most vulnerable appartment. Anyone could have got in if they wanted to, locked or unlocked.
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In hindsight, 5A was the most vulnerable appartment. Anyone could have got in if they wanted to, locked or unlocked.
Had that apartment been previously burgled ?
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In view of the thread title do you mean that in your opinion these were contributory factors in Mark Warner Ltd's decision to cease management of The Ocean Club? If not what was the purpose of bringing them up?
Sigh ... if you are answering the post you will possibly have noticed that it was in response to another post and posts.
It is called taking part in a discussion, which is probably quite appropriate for a "discussion forum".
Let me give you some assistance here ... perhaps you could have joined the discussion by phrasing your query in a less antagonistic fashion.
Then maybe you are feeling a bit bruised at having OT posts removed and consider this to be one; have no fear on that score, my wings get clipped too when threads are tidied up ... so the one which is causing you concern may stand or it may whoosh depending on the level of its irrelevance.
Let's try to address your concern about being OT now.
Perhaps MW did give some thought to the management of the complex ... and although we are aware of the vulnerability of apartment 5a ... there may have been others which are equally as vulnerable and difficult to police.
Maybe holiday accommodation spread out over a large area which consisted of properties in the midst of many in owner occupation was considered impractical or just too expensive to secure and manage.
I'm not really privy to the commercial reasons behind MW decision to quit ... maybe you can come up with something?
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So, in your opinion a child tucked up asleep in bed in what seems to be a safe, tranquil environment whilst its parents are 50 metres away is at greater risk than one awake late in the evening, by the side of the pool and in a public place but with its parents close by (albeit in a group of other adults all socialising)? I don't know you might be right, it would be interesting to see the stats on that. I think the McCanns and their friends chose an option that they thought would suit everyone best. It wasn't (IMO) about selfishly disregarding the kids wants and needs, though of course you will choose to see it otherwise.
Correct I do choose to see it otherwise.
It's clearly better for adults to be around young children to supervise them, pool or no pool, rather than leave them unsupervised in an unlocked apartment. That should be blatantly obvious. Seems you think it's perfectly ok though and actually in the child's best interest!
I'm certain the McCann's themselves would also admit it was the wrong choice which makes your attempts at justification all the more worrying.
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Correct I do choose to see it otherwise.
It's clearly better for adults to be around young children to supervise them, pool or no pool, rather than leave them unsupervised in an unlocked apartment. That should be blatantly obvious. Seems you think it's perfectly ok though and actually in the child's best interest!
I'm certain the McCann's themselves would also admit it was the wrong choice which makes your attempts at justification all the more worrying.
Not sure if they would ever admit it, but if they could go back to the beginning of May 2007, I'm sure they would do things quite differently.
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Correct I do choose to see it otherwise.
It's clearly better for adults to be around young children to supervise them, pool or no pool, rather than leave them unsupervised in an unlocked apartment. That should be blatantly obvious. Seems you think it's perfectly ok though and actually in the child's best interest!
I'm certain the McCann's themselves would also admit it was the wrong choice which makes your attempts at justification all the more worrying.
All I can say is you're very good at seeing what you want to see and not what is actually written. Should've gone to Specsavers, mate.
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Not sure if they would ever admit it, but if they could go back to the beginning of May 2007, I'm sure they would do things quite differently.
They have already said so, what are you on about?!
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"Every hour now, I still ask myself, 'Why did I think that was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I do feel regret. I've gone through all my life and said I never want to have any regrets, but you can't not regret something like that."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
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In an interview with a Swedish magazine, Kate said: “At times we have felt so desperately guilty. As Madeleine’s parents we had failed to keep her safe and will always struggle to bear that guilt.
“If the same thing had happened to another family we would have been amazed they had left their children alone. And we’re guilty! There are so many times we chide ourselves for doing that.”
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All I can say is you're very good at seeing what you want to see and not what is actually written. Should've gone to Specsavers, mate.
" It wasn't (IMO) about selfishly disregarding the kids wants and needs, though of course you will choose to see it otherwise. "
Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood what IMO meant but I doubt it. It was you who gave 2 scenarios (unsupervised in an unlocked apartment or present and supervised by the poolside).
The most selfish option they chose was to leave them unsupervised. A less selfish option may have been the scenario you introduced which is taking them with them. The unselfish option was obviously dining early and staying in to supervise them.
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In an interview with a Swedish magazine, Kate said: “At times we have felt so desperately guilty. As Madeleine’s parents we had failed to keep her safe and will always struggle to bear that guilt.
“If the same thing had happened to another family we would have been amazed they had left their children alone. And we’re guilty! There are so many times we chide ourselves for doing that.”
Quote from Kate's book
.......however unwittingly we'd given this predator an opportunity. We had not been there for Madeleine. And, as I've said before and will say again, our guilt over that is a heavv cross we will bear for the rest of our lives.
Page 202
Unquote
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" It wasn't (IMO) about selfishly disregarding the kids wants and needs, though of course you will choose to see it otherwise. "
Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood what IMO meant but I doubt it. It was you who gave 2 scenarios (unsupervised in an unlocked apartment or present and supervised by the poolside).
The most selfish option they chose was to leave them unsupervised. A less selfish option may have been the scenario you introduced which is taking them with them. The unselfish option was obviously dining early and staying in to supervise them.
You missed out this bit from my post: "I think the McCanns and their friends chose an option that they thought would suit everyone best" - I don't think they were being selfish, foolish maybe, but not selfish. You think they were selfish and foolish, that's perhaps the difference between us (although I'm not sure where you stand on parental involvement in the disappearance, in which case we're poles apart).
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Quote from Kate's book
.......however unwittingly we'd given this predator an opportunity. We had not been there for Madeleine. And, as I've said before and will say again, our guilt over that is a heavv cross we will bear for the rest of our lives.
Page 202
Unquote
Yes Benice, but if only the McCanns would say they did something wrong and show a modicum of guilt then we might not hate them so much.
Oh.
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Sigh ... if you are answering the post you will possibly have noticed that it was in response to another post and posts.
It is called taking part in a discussion, which is probably quite appropriate for a "discussion forum".
Let me give you some assistance here ... perhaps you could have joined the discussion by phrasing your query in a less antagonistic fashion.
Then maybe you are feeling a bit bruised at having OT posts removed and consider this to be one; have no fear on that score, my wings get clipped too when threads are tidied up ... so the one which is causing you concern may stand or it may whoosh depending on the level of its irrelevance.
Let's try to address your concern about being OT now.
Perhaps MW did give some thought to the management of the complex ... and although we are aware of the vulnerability of apartment 5a ... there may have been others which are equally as vulnerable and difficult to police.
Maybe holiday accommodation spread out over a large area which consisted of properties in the midst of many in owner occupation was considered impractical or just too expensive to secure and manage.
I'm not really privy to the commercial reasons behind MW decision to quit ... maybe you can come up with something?
I asked two perfectly reasonable questions neither of which was couched in antagonistic terms.
You have failed to address either adequately.
Nuff said
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I asked two perfectly reasonable questions neither of which was couched in antagonistic terms.
You have failed to address either adequately.
Nuff said
Hi Alice, with respect to the title of this thread, what's your view on the relevance of the parents McCann's alleged selfishness (or otherwise) on Mark Warners decision to pull out of PdL?
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Interesting comment here from a Mumsnetter - not specifically about the OC but with some relevant bits about ground floor apartments and break ins:
Pattypooped Sun 19-Aug-12 01:18:52
We came back from the ALgarve today. We stayed at Lagos but visited Praia da Luz twice.
I was reluctant to go to Luz, not because I was worried but because I have two daughters and was very upset about what happened to Madeleine Mccann at the time. I was persuaded to go for the afternoon and once I'd got over it being 'that' resort, I found it a very likeable and child friendly place, such that we returned a few days later for drinks on the beach.
I probably couldn't cope with staying at the MW resort, I'd find it too sad TBH but the luz area itself is really nice.
The sea was indeed freezing at Luz, however much warmer in other places such as Lagos, which is just up the road (I cannot account for why this would be). The food in Portugal was generally OK but the children's food was awful (I know, I know, they should eat what we eat - but my kids don't go a bundle on the whole octopus thing that's so prevalent in the Algarve!).
We stayed in a ground floor apartment we found through 'Owners Abroad.' I was wary of staying on the ground floor but felt the first floor more risky with a curious 3 year old that cannot be trusted not to climb. The owners assured me it was very safe (it had fences around it and a locked gate), however two men were witnessed trying to break into our apartment at 4am during the first week by pulling up the shutters. They were disturbed by a neighbour. I was completely freaked out and hardly slept any night after that. We ended up wedging everything with broom handles to prevent a break-in.
For the money you spend, I'd rather go independently. We paid £3,200 for four of us - this included flights with Monarch, 14 days car hire from the airport and a lovely two bedroomed apartment with shared pools (lovely apart from the security issue, obviously!). I would go back, and we toyed with Praia da Luz as somewhere to stay next year but we think there's more going on in Lagos.
I'd never stay in a ground floor (or otherwise accessible) apartment again though. We ALWAYS fully locked all windows and doors and had all the shutters fully closed but according to the neighbours this would not deter intruders as they can force the shutters up against the motor and lift the non-moving patio door up to remove it from the frame. The way to prevent this is to place batteries along the top of the frame to narrow the gap in which it can be lifted.
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Hi Alice, with respect to the title of this thread, what's your view on the relevance of the parents McCann's alleged selfishness (or otherwise) on Mark Warners decision to pull out of PdL?
In my opinion the decision will have been taken solely on financial grounds.I can think of plenty of possibilities none of which will involve mentioning the name McCann. So selfishness of McCann's or any other clients and how exposed a few apartments may or may not be will hardly have figured in the decision. According to companies house it is a private company; nonetheless someone somewhere will be expecting a reasonable return on investment for the whole range of the company's activities. If one sector is not performing for what ever reason it may make sense to cut back on that sector to provide more investment into the areas which are providing the best returns. It is hardly complicated. One would hope that posters on here operate in a similar manner with their own investments.
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You missed out this bit from my post: "I think the McCanns and their friends chose an option that they thought would suit everyone best" - I don't think they were being selfish, foolish maybe, but not selfish. You think they were selfish and foolish, that's perhaps the difference between us (although I'm not sure where you stand on parental involvement in the disappearance, in which case we're poles apart).
Does "everyone" translate as " the adults" social plans? Which ever way you spin it the children should have been supervised be it inside or outside but with an adults presence.
Staying in (unselfish). Taking them with them (selfish to a degree) because it would have affected their sleep - BECAUSE THEY FOOLISHLY HAD NO BUGGY. Leaving them unattended in an unlocked apartment (clearly the most selfish of all).
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Does "everyone" translate as " the adults" social plans? Which ever way you spin it the children should have been supervised be it inside or outside but with an adults presence.
Staying in (unselfish). Taking them with them (selfish to a degree) because it would have affected their sleep - BECAUSE THEY FOOLISHLY HAD NO BUGGY. Leaving them unattended in an unlocked apartment (clearly the most selfish of all).
As a matter of interest ...
(a) how easy is it to transport a double buggy by air?
(b) did the holiday company supply buggies for hire?
The McCann twins were toddlers who apparently had no difficulty walking ... so why was it foolish that they had not brought a buggy with them for what was in essence a very short break?
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Happy new years to one and all... Yes even you!
Surprised to find out about the closure of the holiday Resort, I do believe the McCann affair did lead to bad publicity- hence would have affected profits. If profits were receding before then this mess would not have helped any I am sure.
It could have helped if every mention of the 'abduction' covered by the MSM included that it may NEVER have happened IF the parents had not left the children alone..but well... never mind.
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Not bad news after all
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Posted by portugalpress on January 08, 2015 - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/exclusive-%E2%80%9Cmark-warner-pulls-out-of-praia-da-luz%E2%80%9D-the-real-story#sthash.hwpfpD6v.dpuf
Portugal Resident
Exclusive: “Mark Warner pulls out of Praia da Luz” - the real story
(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/728x410x050507_SX_OVERHEAD_OCEAN_CLUB,P20,P289,P29.jpg,qitok=zCBq5LXs.pagespeed.ic.6XRyI6eycn.jpg)
News that holiday company Mark Warner has pulled out of Praia da Luz’s Ocean Club resort has been doing the rounds of mainstream media - particularly in UK - and been angled to suggest that the holiday resort has somehow been further stigmatised by the legacy of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. This couldn’t be further from the truth.
In fact, we are told, what has happened promises to bring a whole new wave of business both to the Ocean Club and the village of Luz.
Portugal Resident got wind of the story before Christmas when internet forums began speculating that “the curse of the McCanns has finally done it to Praia da Luz”.
They were reacting to the announcement online by The Vacation Company website which said: “We regret to inform you that Mark Warner no longer have a contract with the Ocean Club and therefore this property has been removed from their Summer 2015 programme with immediate effect.”
But as Ocean Club manager Donna Hill told us, they were reacting without knowing the facts.
Mark Warner’s owners, Mark Chitty and Andrew Searle, had simply decided to offer the Ocean Club exclusively to travel company Thomas Cook.
Chitty and Searle’s holiday company has pulled out of Portugal - not because of any fall-off in business over the disappearance of Madeleine McCann but because Thomas Cook has offered them “a very good deal”, said Ms Hill.
“We’re all excited about it,” she added. “This is actually a golden opportunity for the Ocean Club as now everyone staying here will come from the same operator and we will be able to offer the same services for all our guests.
“This didn’t happen before as we had some people staying on the resort that came through Mark Warner and others that didn’t.
“It made organising activities extremely difficult, whereas now we’ll be able to put things on for everyone equally.
“We are all looking forward to it - and we’re hoping for an excellent 2015 season!”
In fact, despite the Madeleine “legacy” which still sees periodic moments of media chaos as police return to the Algarve to initiate new inquiries, business in Luz has been steadily growing with locals last year reporting a very good summer all round.
“It’s what everyone wants,” explained one shopkeeper. “We all just want to get on with our lives and our businesses and forget the bad press attached to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.”
http://portugalresident.com/exclusive-%E2%80%9Cmark-warner-pulls-out-of-praia-da-luz%E2%80%9D-the-real-story
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Not such bad news for the OC after all ?{)(**
http://portugalresident.com/exclusive-%E2%80%9Cmark-warner-pulls-out-of-praia-da-luz%E2%80%9D-the-real-story
Puts an entirely more positive angle, Anna, thank you for bringing it to our attention.
I can only echo the hope for the future of the resort.
**Snip
“We’re all excited about it,” she added. “This is actually a golden opportunity for the Ocean Club as now everyone staying here will come from the same operator and we will be able to offer the same services for all our guests.
“This didn’t happen before as we had some people staying on the resort that came through Mark Warner and others that didn’t.
“It made organising activities extremely difficult, whereas now we’ll be able to put things on for everyone equally.
“We are all looking forward to it - and we’re hoping for an excellent 2015 season!”
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/exclusive-%E2%80%9Cmark-warner-pulls-out-of-praia-da-luz%E2%80%9D-the-real-story#sthash.cfrxTugR.dpuf
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"But as Ocean Club manager Donna Hill told us, they (internet forums) were reacting without knowing the facts.".
Well, doesn't that just sum it up perfectly!
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"But as Ocean Club manager Donna Hill told us, they (internet forums) were reacting without knowing the facts.".
Well, doesn't that just sum it up perfectly!
... and ever eager to get the boot into Madeleine's family whatever the excuse.
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... and ever eager to get the boot into Madeleine's family whatever the excuse.
*Irony Klaxon*
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... and ever eager to get the boot into Madeleine's family whatever the excuse.
yup, so predictable. Seems like Madeleine has actually been good for business in Pdl, with all those grief tourists, amateur sleuths and rubberneckers - ugh.
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Chitty and Searle’s holiday company has pulled out of Portugal - not because of any fall-off in business over the disappearance of Madeleine McCann but because Thomas Cook has offered them “a very good deal”, said Ms Hill.
Now who said the reason would be financial? ?>)()<
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Chitty and Searle’s holiday company has pulled out of Portugal - not because of any fall-off in business over the disappearance of Madeleine McCann but because Thomas Cook has offered them “a very good deal”, said Ms Hill.
Now who said the reason would be financial? ?>)()<
Wow aren't you clever? Of course the reason would be financial, one way or another.
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Wow aren't you clever? Of course the reason would be financial, one way or another.
I was being ironic Alfie.
I will have to borrow the "klaxton" ?>)()<