Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on January 07, 2015, 10:41:37 AM
Title: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 07, 2015, 10:41:37 AM
On the Reliability of Cadaver dogs
Dogs trained to detect the smell of human cadaverine are now routinely used throughout the world. We examine some of the leading cases.
From the outset it is important to note that a dog cannot give “evidence“ in a criminal trial. In most jurisdictions evidence has to be subject to examination and cross examination by learned counsel, and this is clearly impossible. On many occasions the alert by the dog will result in the discovery of remains and it will be that which becomes the primary evidence. The fact that the dog indicated where to look becomes a side issue, of no particular legal importance.
Here we look at some occasions when the dog alerts, but no significant physical evidence can be found at the time. The best that can be achieved in these circumstances is that the handler of the animal gives evidence of the dog’s reactions, often with video confirmation, and can then be cross examined on his interpretation of the animal’s behaviour.
(I shall refer to the cases by the name of the deceased or missing person, rather than by the Trial reference, because of the ways in which these differ across jurisdictions)
1 The case with a legal significance may not yet have been fully appreciated, is that of Jeanette Zapata. in Dane Country, USA. In 1976 she served her husband Eugene Zapata with divorce papers. She went missing shortly afterwards. 29 years later dogs alerted in the basement of the family home, and in several other places where the family had lived over the intervening time. At trial his lawyer persuaded the judge that the dog’s finding could not be admitted, since the places in which they had alerted indicated that he had carried the body round to everywhere he had lived, and it was suggested that this was preposterous. The jury failed to reach a verdict. Before his retrial however, he confessed, and crucially confirmed that he had in fact transported the body round before disposing of it. The dogs had been absolutely accurate. No body has been found.
2 The recent case of Bianca Jones, a 2 year old girl murdered by her father D’Andre Lane in Detroit USA, with the added details of an alleged abduction, was an occasion when Mr Martin Grime, a British retired police officer, was working for the FBI. His evidence of the alerts by his dog was admitted to show that Bianca was dead whilst in the back of the car, and not taken by armed men as was being alleged. Lane was convicted, though no body has been found.
3 The trial of Adrian Prout, in 2010, for the murder of Kate Prout, his wife, in the UK, was notable again for a verdict of guilty, despite no body having been found. Dogs had indicted the presence of a body in the house, but nothing had been found. Some time after his conviction Prout confessed, and indicted the location of the body, confirming that the dogs had been absolutely accurate in their findings.
4 In the murder of Susan Pilley in Edinburgh, by her colleague David Gilroy, in 2010, the court heard that the dogs had alerted in the office basement garage and in two areas of the boot of Gilroy’s car, even though this had been cleaned recently with fluid or air freshener. The defence failed to convince the jury that the absence of physical evidence entitled his client to acquittal. He was convicted. No body has been found.
5 Cori Baker from Oklahoma was murdered by her sister’s boyfriend Marquis Bulloch, in 2007. He changed his story several times whilst being investigated, and the dogs, partly funded by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, were brought into search a large area after a skull had been found. They alerted in several places. No other physical evidence was discovered. He was convicted
6 The case of Guadeloupe Montano from Kane County, USA, is now complete. It is alleged that she was murdered by her husband Aurelio Montano in 1990. It may be the first time that the dog’s alerts have been used as evidence in that State. They indicate that the body lay in one position and was then moved to another. The trial took place in October 2013. No body has been found. He was convicted
7 The case of Amir Jennings, allegedly killed by her mother Zinah Jennings in 2011, involves a mother who reported her son missing. Dogs searched the house and the car, and human blood was then found. No body has been found. Zinah Jennings was convicted on a charge of unlawful conduct toward a child, and sentenced to 10 years
8 The trial of Albert Fine, the partner of Catherine Hoholski, from Lorain USA, is pending. In this case the body was found within 60 seconds of the dog being deployed, and it was then used to identify other locations relevant to the prosecution case. He faces the death penalty if convicted.
9 The alleged abduction of Isabel Mercedes Celis has been called into question by the findings of two dogs, one a cadaver dog, in the family home. The findings were said to be “significant”, the house is being treated as a crime scene and the matter is still under investigation. No body has been found.
10 The disappearance of 6 year old Etan Patz in New York 33 years ago, has already shown the almost unbelievable feats of which cadaver dogs are capable. In this case pads of absorbent material were left for a time on the concrete floor of the basement and then presented to the dogs for testing. As a result the concrete floor was then ripped up. The handler Englebert said. "We as human beings never lose our scent. If [a body] had been there for a while, that scent would still be there," she said, indicating that even if investigators do not find remains in the basement, it is possible human remains may have once been there before being moved.” The trial of Pedro Hernandez, who has admitted kidnapping and murder, is pending. No body has been found.
11 The parents of Lisa Irwin, from Kansas City, also allege that she must have been abducted in the middle of the night. The mother told Police she did not search, “because she was afraid of what she might find”. Disturbed earth was found behind the house, and the dog alerted in the parent’s bedroom. As a result a full search warrant was granted, and the police say they want to talk to the parents Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, one to one.
12 The cold case of 14 year old Melanie Melanson, from Massachusetts USA, who disappeared 20 years ago, has been given fresh impetus through the findings of a cadaver dog which alerted in an area targeted following a tip off to Police.
13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
14 The infamous case of Caylee Anthony, whose mother Casey Anthony was accused of murdering her in Orlando USA, in 2011, was also notable in that the evidence of the cadaver dog handler was admitted, even though the body was found later at a different location. The dog alerted in the boot of the car, and it was alleged that the mother had then dumped the body. The evidence was highly detailed, with full description of the system of ‘final trained alert’ by the dog showing an exact position, distinguished from a more general interest. In the event Anthony was not found guilty of the murder, but was convicted of several lesser offences. There are moves to have the case reopened at Federal level.
15 In the UK, the case of Kirsi Gifford-Hull, in Winchester in 2005, is of interest since although the body was discovered by a man walking a dog, and the offender Mike Gifford-Hull had made a public appeal at a press conference for his wife to return, cadaver dogs had already alerted some weeks earlier in the house and in his car during the initial search for a “missing person”. After the trial he told officers that when he saw the dogs alerting in the car he had contemplated making a full admission. He was convicted. After the trial Judge Guy Boney QC ”. . .added that the police inquiry was so superior it could be matched with that of any other police force in the world.”
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 07, 2015, 10:55:15 AM
13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
Back in March Dickens was convicted of Lauryn’s murder. This past week at her sentencing hearing she admitted to every detail.
She said that she was frustrated that she couldn’t find a baby sitter and started crying. Then Lauryn started crying. Instead of comforting her which is what most normal mothers do she put her hand over Lauryn’s nose and mouth until she passed out. She removed her hand and Lauryn started crying again and Dickens continued to suffocate her.
When Lauryn was dead Dickens put her body in a trash bag and threw it in a dumpster two apartment complexes away. She didn’t go back to the dumpster but watched as the dumpster was emptied.
http://trenchreynolds.com/tag/shakara-dickens/
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 07, 2015, 10:58:01 AM
13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
Back in March Dickens was convicted of Lauryn’s murder. This past week at her sentencing hearing she admitted to every detail.
She said that she was frustrated that she couldn’t find a baby sitter and started crying. Then Lauryn started crying. Instead of comforting her which is what most normal mothers do she put her hand over Lauryn’s nose and mouth until she passed out. She removed her hand and Lauryn started crying again and Dickens continued to suffocate her.
When Lauryn was dead Dickens put her body in a trash bag and threw it in a dumpster two apartment complexes away. She didn’t go back to the dumpster but watched as the dumpster was emptied.
http://trenchreynolds.com/tag/shakara-dickens/
Ta Da!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2015, 11:00:13 AM
13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
Back in March Dickens was convicted of Lauryn’s murder. This past week at her sentencing hearing she admitted to every detail.
She said that she was frustrated that she couldn’t find a baby sitter and started crying. Then Lauryn started crying. Instead of comforting her which is what most normal mothers do she put her hand over Lauryn’s nose and mouth until she passed out. She removed her hand and Lauryn started crying again and Dickens continued to suffocate her.
When Lauryn was dead Dickens put her body in a trash bag and threw it in a dumpster two apartment complexes away. She didn’t go back to the dumpster but watched as the dumpster was emptied.
http://trenchreynolds.com/tag/shakara-dickens/
Very interesting thread PF. Thank you for starting it.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: John on January 07, 2015, 11:04:04 AM
There is no doubt that Victim Recovery and CSI dogs are an amazing investigative tool available to police in cases of suspected homicide. The ultimate frustration for handlers however must be when their dogs alert and CSI fail to find any corroborating evidence.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on January 07, 2015, 11:14:54 AM
13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
Back in March Dickens was convicted of Lauryn’s murder. This past week at her sentencing hearing she admitted to every detail.
She said that she was frustrated that she couldn’t find a baby sitter and started crying. Then Lauryn started crying. Instead of comforting her which is what most normal mothers do she put her hand over Lauryn’s nose and mouth until she passed out. She removed her hand and Lauryn started crying again and Dickens continued to suffocate her.
When Lauryn was dead Dickens put her body in a trash bag and threw it in a dumpster two apartment complexes away. She didn’t go back to the dumpster but watched as the dumpster was emptied.
http://trenchreynolds.com/tag/shakara-dickens/
How can a mother, do such a thing? Terrible to say the least.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2015, 11:18:06 AM
Indeed Anna. It does however show how convenient a method for disposal of a body a municipal bin is.
Awful to even think about, Faith, but I suppose a 9 month old baby would be easily concealed in one of those big dumpsters. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: John on January 07, 2015, 11:47:35 AM
Two Scottish cases in which cadaver dogs were used without success...
The disappearance of Renee MacRae (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/a-burned-out-car-a-missing-mum-1040736?mobile=false) and her son Andrew (3) in 1976. No sign of them has ever been found and nobody has faced prosecution for her murder despite compelling evidence of involvement. Read more... (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renee_MacRae)
The disappearance of Arlene Fraser (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Arlene_Fraser) in 1998 which saw her estranged husband Nat Fraser twice convicted of murder in 2003 and 2012. Her remains have never been found.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2015, 11:52:40 AM
Two Scottish cases in which cadaver dogs were used without success...
The disappearance of Renee MacRae (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/a-burned-out-car-a-missing-mum-1040736?mobile=false) and her son Andrew (3) in 1976. No sign of them has ever been found and nobody has faced prosecution.
The disappearance of Arlene Fraser (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Arlene_Fraser) in 1998 which saw her estranged husband Nat Fraser convicted twice of murder in trials in 2003 and 2012. Her remains have never been found.
Neither have ever turned up and I believe individuals were convicted of murder in both cases. So hardly 'without success' John.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 07, 2015, 11:58:53 AM
Renee McRae's murderer has never been apprehended.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: John on January 07, 2015, 12:03:58 PM
Neither have ever turned up and I believe individuals were convicted of murder in both cases. So hardly 'without success' John.
Nobody has ever been prosecuted for the murder of Renee MacRae although her lover was charged in 1990 with dishonesty and forgery involving sums totalling £240,000.
Cadaver dogs failed to discover any trace of the victims.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 07, 2015, 12:05:10 PM
Nobody has ever been prosecuted for the murder of Renee MacRae although her lover was charged in 1990 with dishonesty and forgery involving sums totalling £240,000.
Cadaver dogs failed to discover any trace of the victims.
....28 years later, in a place where they may well never have been, nor did they alert.
'Jean McLennan, a Wick-based sheriff, has written Blood in the Glens, which includes the disappearance of Renee MacRae and her son Andrew, who vanished on November 12, 1976. No trace has ever been found of them.'
'In 2004, retired sergeant John Cathcart spoke on TV about his suspicions that Renee and Andrew had been buried in Dalmagarry Quarry, close to the lay-by.
Local farmer Brian McGregor was among those watching and was troubled.
He visited the quarry with Cathcart and adiviner named Piercy Phillip.
Using his rods, Phillip found what he believed could be a burial site.
McGregor offered to provide an excavator unless Northern Constabulary investigated.
Acold case review started and a massive dig began. It was to cost £112,000.
Aprofessor in forensic anthropology was called in to advise and in five weeks, 1800 trees were felled and victim recovery dogs used.'
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 07, 2015, 12:16:08 PM
How many of the cases listed above were wholly reliant on the dog alerts to secure the conviction?
A question for dog apologists: as you all seem to have 100% faith in the dogs, would you be happy if convictions for murder were handed out on the basis of cadaver dog alerts alone? Remember, dogs don't lie, and can never be wrong so surely it stands to reason if a dog barks in your suspect's house or to his or her property then it's obvious they dunnit, right?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 07, 2015, 12:19:43 PM
How many of the cases listed above were wholly reliant on the dog alerts to secure the conviction?
A question for dog apologists: as you all seem to have 100% faith in the dogs, would you be happy if convictions for murder were handed out on the basis of cadaver dog alerts alone? Remember, dogs don't lie, and can never be wrong so surely it stands to reason if a dog barks in your suspect's house or to his or her property then it's obvious they dunnit, right?
When have I said they are never wrong?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 07, 2015, 12:20:23 PM
Dogs trained to detect the smell of human cadaverine are now routinely used throughout the world. We examine some of the leading cases.
From the outset it is important to note that a dog cannot give “evidence“ in a criminal trial. In most jurisdictions evidence has to be subject to examination and cross examination by learned counsel, and this is clearly impossible. On many occasions the alert by the dog will result in the discovery of remains and it will be that which becomes the primary evidence. The fact that the dog indicated where to look becomes a side issue, of no particular legal importance.
Here we look at some occasions when the dog alerts, but no significant physical evidence can be found at the time. The best that can be achieved in these circumstances is that the handler of the animal gives evidence of the dog’s reactions, often with video confirmation, and can then be cross examined on his interpretation of the animal’s behaviour.
(I shall refer to the cases by the name of the deceased or missing person, rather than by the Trial reference, because of the ways in which these differ across jurisdictions)
1 The case with a legal significance may not yet have been fully appreciated, is that of Jeanette Zapata. in Dane Country, USA. In 1976 she served her husband Eugene Zapata with divorce papers. She went missing shortly afterwards. 29 years later dogs alerted in the basement of the family home, and in several other places where the family had lived over the intervening time. At trial his lawyer persuaded the judge that the dog’s finding could not be admitted, since the places in which they had alerted indicated that he had carried the body round to everywhere he had lived, and it was suggested that this was preposterous. The jury failed to reach a verdict. Before his retrial however, he confessed, and crucially confirmed that he had in fact transported the body round before disposing of it. The dogs had been absolutely accurate. No body has been found.
2 The recent case of Bianca Jones, a 2 year old girl murdered by her father D’Andre Lane in Detroit USA, with the added details of an alleged abduction, was an occasion when Mr Martin Grime, a British retired police officer, was working for the FBI. His evidence of the alerts by his dog was admitted to show that Bianca was dead whilst in the back of the car, and not taken by armed men as was being alleged. Lane was convicted, though no body has been found.
3 The trial of Adrian Prout, in 2010, for the murder of Kate Prout, his wife, in the UK, was notable again for a verdict of guilty, despite no body having been found. Dogs had indicted the presence of a body in the house, but nothing had been found. Some time after his conviction Prout confessed, and indicted the location of the body, confirming that the dogs had been absolutely accurate in their findings.
4 In the murder of Susan Pilley in Edinburgh, by her colleague David Gilroy, in 2010, the court heard that the dogs had alerted in the office basement garage and in two areas of the boot of Gilroy’s car, even though this had been cleaned recently with fluid or air freshener. The defence failed to convince the jury that the absence of physical evidence entitled his client to acquittal. He was convicted. No body has been found.
5 Cori Baker from Oklahoma was murdered by her sister’s boyfriend Marquis Bulloch, in 2007. He changed his story several times whilst being investigated, and the dogs, partly funded by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, were brought into search a large area after a skull had been found. They alerted in several places. No other physical evidence was discovered. He was convicted
6 The case of Guadeloupe Montano from Kane County, USA, is now complete. It is alleged that she was murdered by her husband Aurelio Montano in 1990. It may be the first time that the dog’s alerts have been used as evidence in that State. They indicate that the body lay in one position and was then moved to another. The trial took place in October 2013. No body has been found. He was convicted
7 The case of Amir Jennings, allegedly killed by her mother Zinah Jennings in 2011, involves a mother who reported her son missing. Dogs searched the house and the car, and human blood was then found. No body has been found. Zinah Jennings was convicted on a charge of unlawful conduct toward a child, and sentenced to 10 years
8 The trial of Albert Fine, the partner of Catherine Hoholski, from Lorain USA, is pending. In this case the body was found within 60 seconds of the dog being deployed, and it was then used to identify other locations relevant to the prosecution case. He faces the death penalty if convicted.
9 The alleged abduction of Isabel Mercedes Celis has been called into question by the findings of two dogs, one a cadaver dog, in the family home. The findings were said to be “significant”, the house is being treated as a crime scene and the matter is still under investigation. No body has been found.
10 The disappearance of 6 year old Etan Patz in New York 33 years ago, has already shown the almost unbelievable feats of which cadaver dogs are capable. In this case pads of absorbent material were left for a time on the concrete floor of the basement and then presented to the dogs for testing. As a result the concrete floor was then ripped up. The handler Englebert said. "We as human beings never lose our scent. If [a body] had been there for a while, that scent would still be there," she said, indicating that even if investigators do not find remains in the basement, it is possible human remains may have once been there before being moved.” The trial of Pedro Hernandez, who has admitted kidnapping and murder, is pending. No body has been found.
11 The parents of Lisa Irwin, from Kansas City, also allege that she must have been abducted in the middle of the night. The mother told Police she did not search, “because she was afraid of what she might find”. Disturbed earth was found behind the house, and the dog alerted in the parent’s bedroom. As a result a full search warrant was granted, and the police say they want to talk to the parents Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, one to one.
12 The cold case of 14 year old Melanie Melanson, from Massachusetts USA, who disappeared 20 years ago, has been given fresh impetus through the findings of a cadaver dog which alerted in an area targeted following a tip off to Police.
13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
14 The infamous case of Caylee Anthony, whose mother Casey Anthony was accused of murdering her in Orlando USA, in 2011, was also notable in that the evidence of the cadaver dog handler was admitted, even though the body was found later at a different location. The dog alerted in the boot of the car, and it was alleged that the mother had then dumped the body. The evidence was highly detailed, with full description of the system of ‘final trained alert’ by the dog showing an exact position, distinguished from a more general interest. In the event Anthony was not found guilty of the murder, but was convicted of several lesser offences. There are moves to have the case reopened at Federal level.
15 In the UK, the case of Kirsi Gifford-Hull, in Winchester in 2005, is of interest since although the body was discovered by a man walking a dog, and the offender Mike Gifford-Hull had made a public appeal at a press conference for his wife to return, cadaver dogs had already alerted some weeks earlier in the house and in his car during the initial search for a “missing person”. After the trial he told officers that when he saw the dogs alerting in the car he had contemplated making a full admission. He was convicted. After the trial Judge Guy Boney QC ”. . .added that the police inquiry was so superior it could be matched with that of any other police force in the world.”
Dogs trained to detect the smell of human cadaverine are now routinely used throughout the world.
Although dogs (trained using the aid of pseudo-scents) will react to cadaverine, that's not very helpful, since cadaverine is a bi-product of living humans, present in semen and urine.
What a poorly researched article!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 07, 2015, 12:37:07 PM
I've got another good example of a conviction without a body. The case of Thomas Quick, the Swedish serial killer who never was. Zampo the cadaver dog alerted no less than 45 times in places that Quick claimed to have brought his victims' bodies. The only slight problem was...he never actually committed any of the murders. Ooops.
Two Scottish cases in which cadaver dogs were used without success...
The disappearance of Renee MacRae (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/a-burned-out-car-a-missing-mum-1040736?mobile=false) and her son Andrew (3) in 1976. No sign of them has ever been found and nobody has faced prosecution for her murder despite compelling evidence of involvement. Read more... (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renee_MacRae)
The disappearance of Arlene Fraser (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Arlene_Fraser) in 1998 which saw her estranged husband Nat Fraser twice convicted of murder in 2003 and 2012. Her remains have never been found.
**clip
"[1] Detective Sergeant John Cathcart coordinated the search and after eight months he had a breakthrough. While excavating Dalmagarry quarry he was hit by a stench after removing a layer of topsoil. Convinced it was a sign of corpses, he continued digging, but was told by a superior officer to stop as the bulldozer they were using had to go back to the contractors due to short funds.[5]" http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renee_MacRae
Many years later when the area was again searched nothing was found; there had been much earth movement in the intervening period. Absolutely reprehensible that the DS ... a man who would certainly have recognised the smell of such decomposition ... was overruled due to a "shortage of funds". Apart from SAR dogs being used initially, it was the human nose which was disregarded in this case.
Arlene Fraser: Her husband was convicted on the evidence and witness statements, I have never seen anywhere that a cadaver dog alerted anywhere; either in her home, the farm which had spcialist equipment ... (As Mr Dick told police he had no visitors on April 27, 1998 - the day before Mrs Fraser's disappearance - Fraser was telling officers he had been to see him. Police also searched Mr Dick's farm in December 1998, interested in equipment he had for "steam cooking" and mixing pig food. http://news.stv.tv/north/305445-court-hears-alibi-of-man-nat-fraser-says-may-have-murdered-his-wife/) or any vehicle - particularly the one which could not be accounted for.
Suzanne Pilley: The conviction was obtained on the basis of evidence presented to the court the VRD alert in the work garage being treated as probable cause ... the probable clincher for the jury as far as that was concerned was probably the CCTV coverage of Suzanne entering the building but not exiting. Therefore backing up the indication of the VRD with solid evidential CCTV footage.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
Nobody has ever been prosecuted for the murder of Renee MacRae although her lover was charged in 1990 with dishonesty and forgery involving sums totalling £240,000.
Cadaver dogs failed to discover any trace of the victims.
Apologies John my mistake. I was thinking Muriel McKay.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Carana on January 07, 2015, 01:55:29 PM
I'm not quite sure what the purpose is:
- Is it to show that various people have been convicted in certain jurisdictions due to dog alerts without a body?
- That victims were eventually found where the dogs had alerted?
The examples don't seem to all be of the same nature. Unfortunately, Bennett doesn't provide a bibliography.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 07, 2015, 01:59:31 PM
I've got another good example of a conviction without a body. The case of Thomas Quick, the Swedish serial killer who never was. Zampo the cadaver dog alerted no less than 45 times in places that Quick claimed to have brought his victims' bodies. The only slight problem was...he never actually committed any of the murders. Ooops.
Good old clever Hans ... I think he probably makes a lot more appearances than we give him credit for.
That is one thing, though ... another is just downright blatant dishonesty for whatever reason, which must be taken into account. Sandra Marie Anderson actually 'planted' false forensic evidence ... she could really have gone to town if there had been reliance only on her dog's alert.
**Clip The indictment said Mrs. Anderson, director of the Great Lakes Search and Rescue Team of Michigan K-9 Unit, planted human remains and fiber evidence during searches with her dog, Eagle, at the Huron National Forest search in northern Michigan on April 17 and 18, 2002, as well as human remains during a search in the Proud Lake Recreation Center, also in northern Michigan, on Jan. 4, 2002.
The human remains, according to the indictment, included bones, which she “pretended to discover as genuine potential evidence.”
Authorities said some of the evidence uncovered by Mrs. Anderson led to convictions in several cases, including at least one homicide, although they declined to elaborate.
Good old clever Hans ... I think he probably makes a lot more appearances than we give him credit for.
That is one thing, though ... another is just downright blatant dishonesty for whatever reason, which must be taken into account. Sandra Marie Anderson actually 'planted' false forensic evidence ... she could really have gone to town if there had been reliance only on her dog's alert.
**Clip The indictment said Mrs. Anderson, director of the Great Lakes Search and Rescue Team of Michigan K-9 Unit, planted human remains and fiber evidence during searches with her dog, Eagle, at the Huron National Forest search in northern Michigan on April 17 and 18, 2002, as well as human remains during a search in the Proud Lake Recreation Center, also in northern Michigan, on Jan. 4, 2002.
The human remains, according to the indictment, included bones, which she “pretended to discover as genuine potential evidence.”
Authorities said some of the evidence uncovered by Mrs. Anderson led to convictions in several cases, including at least one homicide, although they declined to elaborate.
You mean the curtain sent to the FSS after Keela alerted to it and checked for blood, but no blood found?
"'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement."
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2015, 10:37:59 AM
"'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement."
How can this be proved to be true...or do we just have to take Grime's word for it...that is not how evidence works
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 08, 2015, 10:41:39 AM
From memory so I could be completely wrong, but didn't Keela originally fail to alert at that curtain on one search?
I've never heard that. This is from Grime's report.
The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.
The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for laboratory analysis.
There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2015, 11:08:27 AM
I've never heard that. This is from Grime's report.
The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.
The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for laboratory analysis.
There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.
"There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response."
I saw the video of the working dog searching for a body in the kitchen waste bin ... happened to notice that the dog which never reacts to road kill or animal carcasses retrieved a bone and was running around with it in his mouth.
Wonder what the explanation for that was?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2015, 11:14:26 AM
"There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response."
I saw the video of the working dog searching for a body in the kitchen waste bin ... happened to notice that the dog which never reacts to road kill or animal carcasses retrieved a bone and was running around with it in his mouth.
Wonder what the explanation for that was?
However as he didn't give the trained response. That is the point.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 08, 2015, 11:17:19 AM
"There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response."
I saw the video of the working dog searching for a body in the kitchen waste bin ... happened to notice that the dog which never reacts to road kill or animal carcasses retrieved a bone and was running around with it in his mouth.
Wonder what the explanation for that was?
Their job is to alert. He was also interested in a tennis ball because he likes to play with it %£&)**#
Apartment H5
We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2015, 11:25:54 AM
Good old clever Hans ... I think he probably makes a lot more appearances than we give him credit for.
That is one thing, though ... another is just downright blatant dishonesty for whatever reason, which must be taken into account. Sandra Marie Anderson actually 'planted' false forensic evidence ... she could really have gone to town if there had been reliance only on her dog's alert.
**Clip The indictment said Mrs. Anderson, director of the Great Lakes Search and Rescue Team of Michigan K-9 Unit, planted human remains and fiber evidence during searches with her dog, Eagle, at the Huron National Forest search in northern Michigan on April 17 and 18, 2002, as well as human remains during a search in the Proud Lake Recreation Center, also in northern Michigan, on Jan. 4, 2002.
The human remains, according to the indictment, included bones, which she “pretended to discover as genuine potential evidence.”
Authorities said some of the evidence uncovered by Mrs. Anderson led to convictions in several cases, including at least one homicide, although they declined to elaborate.
Faithlilly wonders ... "Are you accusing Martin Grime of planting evidence because if not I fail to see how the article above is relevant ?"
I think the article which I have quoted is entirely relevant to a thread entitled "Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body".
The 'clever Hans' reference is in response to Alfred's post ..."I've got another good example of a conviction without a body. The case of Thomas Quick, the Swedish serial killer who never was. Zampo the cadaver dog alerted no less than 45 times in places that Quick claimed to have brought his victims' bodies. The only slight problem was...he never actually committed any of the murders. Ooops. "
The reference to the corrupt dog handler includes the information that at least one homicide conviction was obtained as a result.
If anyone chooses to link Martin Grime with the two examples mentioned above, they really ought to consider that there is a wider world out there which does not revolve around the happenings in Praia Da Luz in 2007.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2015, 11:30:49 AM
Their job is to alert. He was also interested in a tennis ball because he likes to play with it %£&)**#
Apartment H5
We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.
Eddie really did enjoy playing with his toys.
Oh the fun he had tossing cuddlecat around ... and how delighted was he to find him again once he had been hidden in the cupboard. Woof!! ... I want my toy!!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2015, 11:37:32 AM
Faithlilly wonders ... "Are you accusing Martin Grime of planting evidence because if not I fail to see how the article above is relevant ?"
I think the article which I have quoted is entirely relevant to a thread entitled "Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body".
The 'clever Hans' reference is in response to Alfred's post ..."I've got another good example of a conviction without a body. The case of Thomas Quick, the Swedish serial killer who never was. Zampo the cadaver dog alerted no less than 45 times in places that Quick claimed to have brought his victims' bodies. The only slight problem was...he never actually committed any of the murders. Ooops. "
The reference to the corrupt dog handler includes the information that at least one homicide conviction was obtained as a result.
If anyone chooses to link Martin Grime with the two examples mentioned above, they really ought to consider that there is a wider world out there which does not revolve around the happenings in Praia Da Luz in 2007.
Martin Grime cannot be linked to the two examples mentioned above. Glad we got that one cleared up Brietta.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2015, 11:44:48 AM
Martin Grime cannot be linked to the two examples mentioned above. Glad we got that one cleared up Brietta.
Yes ... so simples, actually ... there really wasn't any genuine requirement "to get that one cleared up" ... one wonders why the pretence of being incapable of working it out for yourself. %£&)**#
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2015, 11:47:44 AM
Yes ... so simples, actually ... there really wasn't any genuine requirement "to get that one cleared up" ... one wonders why the pretence of being incapable of working it out for yourself. %£&)**#
My you are a slippery on Brietta @)(++(*
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 08, 2015, 11:58:14 AM
Faithlilly wonders ... "Are you accusing Martin Grime of planting evidence because if not I fail to see how the article above is relevant ?"
I think the article which I have quoted is entirely relevant to a thread entitled "Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body".
The 'clever Hans' reference is in response to Alfred's post ..."I've got another good example of a conviction without a body. The case of Thomas Quick, the Swedish serial killer who never was. Zampo the cadaver dog alerted no less than 45 times in places that Quick claimed to have brought his victims' bodies. The only slight problem was...he never actually committed any of the murders. Ooops. "
The reference to the corrupt dog handler includes the information that at least one homicide conviction was obtained as a result.
If anyone chooses to link Martin Grime with the two examples mentioned above, they really ought to consider that there is a wider world out there which does not revolve around the happenings in Praia Da Luz in 2007.
And you would honestly believe a word this screwball says *&*%£
Thomas Quick is shouting Ffin pigs when attacking them. Kate was thinking Ffin tossers.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2015, 01:57:31 PM
Eddie yapped at something in a bin in one of the other apartments, don't know what happened to that piece of video I think there was a bone in the bin or something.
OOPS, sorry forgot to enclose the quote I was answering to.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: sadie on January 09, 2015, 02:01:35 AM
Nothing slippery about Brietta. Your hero Quentin Crisp doesn't fit the bill, I'm afraid. He was charming and witty, but slippery as an eel.
Brietta uses facts and logic
You should try it sometime, Faith
PS I like your new avatar
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: misty on February 23, 2015, 11:50:28 PM
Does anyone know who paid for Eddie & Keela to go to Portugal, & to whom payment was made? I have just read on another site that Grime was officially retired 5 days before he went to PdL.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 12:01:27 AM
There has been a lot of debate on this subject. Whether he was retired from the police force and employed by the police, to use his dogs in Playa da luz, or whether he was still being paid as a police office/dog handler is still unclear, but it makes little difference really, does it?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 12:04:26 AM
There has been a lot of debate on this subject. Whether he was retired from the police force and employed by the police, to use his dogs in Playa da luz, or whether he was still being paid as a police office/dog handler is still unclear, but it makes little difference really, does it?
You would think not wouldnt you. Anna.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: misty on February 24, 2015, 12:08:18 AM
There has been a lot of debate on this subject. Whether he was retired from the police force and employed by the police, to use his dogs in Playa da luz, or whether he was still being paid as a police office/dog handler is still unclear, but it makes little difference really, does it?
I disagree. It makes a lot of difference if someone can benefit financially because of a delay in employing them. Has it ever been established who footed the bill?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 12:15:25 AM
I disagree. It makes a lot of difference if someone can benefit financially because of a delay in employing them. Has it ever been established who footed the bill?
Not sure I get your point misty. Grime was brought in by Mark Harrison. He had no choice in when that happened.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 12:16:25 AM
I disagree. It makes a lot of difference if someone can benefit financially because of a delay in employing them. Has it ever been established who footed the bill?
I don't believe it has, Misty.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: misty on February 24, 2015, 12:37:49 AM
Not sure I get your point misty. Grime was brought in by Mark Harrison. He had no choice in when that happened.
Harrison was a serving police officer. He was also aware that Eddie & Keela were not trained using orthodox UK procedures. My point is - why would someone have authorised the use of a handler & dogs which were no longer on the books of S. Yorks police when there were equally capable dogs within the force?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 12:39:10 AM
Harrison was a serving police officer. He was also aware that Eddie & Keela were not trained using orthodox UK procedures. My point is - why would someone have authorised the use of a handler & dogs which were no longer on the books of S. Yorks police when there were equally capable dogs within the force?
I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force. On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature. The Judicial Police is in possession of the originals of the search reports and the videos showing all searches performed and the reaction of the dogs. In addition to the report, Sam Harkeness of the Progresso Nacional Police Agency sent me by email several written questions sent by the Judicial Police together with a request for a written deposition. This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post425.html#p425
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2015, 12:57:47 AM
There has been a lot of debate on this subject. Whether he was retired from the police force and employed by the police, to use his dogs in Playa da luz, or whether he was still being paid as a police office/dog handler is still unclear, but it makes little difference really, does it?
Martin Grime was not a serving police officer when working in Praia Da Luz and although retaining his expert accreditation it is interesting to note that his dog did not.
That he was retired, explains why he was not in uniform when working, unlike the officers who took part in the most recent dog searches in PDL. He was there in a private capacity although someone must have contracted him for the job, whether that was Leicestershire police or the Portuguese authorities ... who knows ... but someone lifted the bill and as a private contractor he would be paid for his work.
I think concerns could legitimately be raised at the elapse of time between Madeleine's disappearance and the deployment of a VRD.
One wonders about the difference in cost, if any, of using a contractor and his dog and using a police dog team.
**snip Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by ACPO. http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: misty on February 24, 2015, 01:02:50 AM
I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force. On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature. The Judicial Police is in possession of the originals of the search reports and the videos showing all searches performed and the reaction of the dogs. In addition to the report, Sam Harkeness of the Progresso Nacional Police Agency sent me by email several written questions sent by the Judicial Police together with a request for a written deposition. This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post425.html#p425
Thanks for that link, Anna. It doesn't really clarify anything for me, though, as that is a transcript from his rogatory in 2008. I can't see the original report of 17th August 2007 anywhere for confirmation that it was submitted on behalf of S. Yorks Police rather than a freelance basis.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 01:05:40 AM
Martin Grime was not a serving police officer when working in Praia Da Luz and although retaining his expert accreditation it is interesting to note that his dog did not.
That he was retired, explains why he was not in uniform when working, unlike the officers who took part in the most recent dog searches in PDL. He was there in a private capacity although someone must have contracted him for the job, whether that was Leicestershire police or the Portuguese authorities ... who knows ... but someone lifted the bill and as a private contractor he would be paid for his work.
I think concerns could legitimately be raised at the elapse of time between Madeleine's disappearance and the deployment of a VRD.
One wonders about the difference in cost, if any, of using a contractor and his dog and using a police dog team.
**snip Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by ACPO. http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
Thank you, Brietta. So much has been spoken about whether he was retired from the Police force or not. This seems to determine that he was in fact retired. Was he not in the same association as The officer who brought him to PDL? I also thought the delay in bringing the dogs was because the PJ were not convinced that they were a necessity.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 01:13:00 AM
Thanks for that link, Anna. It doesn't really clarify anything for me, though, as that is a transcript from his rogatory in 2008. I can't see the original report of 17th August 2007 anywhere for confirmation that it was submitted on behalf of S. Yorks Police rather than a freelance basis.
Nothing on headed paper. I think Brietta might have found the answer.
I am a 'retired' police officer, formally a senior instructor at the South Yorkshire Police dog training establishment.
I have 35 years experience in the training of dogs both within the police service and in the public sector.
I specialise in the development and training of specialist search dogs to include narcotics, explosives, currency, human remains, blood and semen.
I am the Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program.
I am a U.K.A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers, England and Wales) accredited police dog training instructor. I am a Subject Matter Expert in forensic canine search and on the N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement Agency) Expert Advisers database.
I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation.
I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.
I am regularly deployed to homicide cases within my portfolio and form a 'Specialist Canine Homicide Search Team' including the S.A.M dog teams from Dyfed Powys and USA.
I have trained and handle two operational specialist search dogs: 'Eddie' is a 7-year-old English Springer spaniel dog who is trained as an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD).
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2015, 01:21:18 AM
Thank you, Brietta. So much has been spoken about whether he was retired from the Police force or not. This seems to determine that he was in fact retired. Was he not in the same association as The officer who brought him to PDL? I also thought the delay in bringing the dogs was because the PJ were not convinced that they were a necessity.
I should have added the following to the link, Anna, makes it easier to find.
I too was under the impression that the PJ had refused the help of specialist dogs earlier in the investigation when they would have had more of a chance of finding something ... however I can't find a reliable official source for that.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 01:34:18 AM
I too was under the impression that the PJ had refused the help of specialist dogs earlier in the investigation when they would have had more of a chance of finding something ... however I can't find a reliable official source for that.
Thank you Brietta, Below is a link to Mark Harrison report on page 6 you will see that the police in Britain are restricted to using certain dog teams due to quarantine regulations. This might be why MG was used? I will look for something regarding the possibility that the PJ were hesitant in having the dogs over, but not now....its too late.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 10:41:38 AM
I belueve Dave Edgar was no longer a serving police officer when employed by the McCanns for his investigative skills. Does that make him less trustworthy ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2015, 10:47:52 AM
I belueve Dave Edgar was no longer a serving police officer when employed by the McCanns for his investigative skills. Does that make him less trustworthy ?
for those who understand the dog alerts it matters not...it's what the dogs find that's important...and they found nothing to confirm Maddie's death
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 10:57:06 AM
I belueve Dave Edgar was no longer a serving police officer when employed by the McCanns for his investigative skills. Does that make him less trustworthy ?
I don't think anyone is saying that MG was not trustworthy, Faith. I think they are just curious, as to who was employing him at the time. It has been gone over many times, but at the end of the day, the dogs findings were of no evidential value without substantial evidence to back it up.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 11:25:33 AM
I don't think anyone is saying that MG was not trustworthy, Faith. I think they are just curious, as to who was employing him at the time. It has been gone over many times, but at the end of the day, the dogs findings were of no evidential value without substantial evidence to back it up.
I think you're being naive Anna if you think the rubbishing of Grime's reputation is not what's happening here. As to the dog alerts, if they are unimportant why are supporters still after eight years desperately trying to discredit them ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 11:31:53 AM
I think you're being naive Anna if you think the rubbishing of Grime's reputation is not what's happening here. As to the dog alerts, if they are unimportant we are supporters still after eight years desperately trying to discredit them ?
These arguments will go and on, as well you know, Faith.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 24, 2015, 11:36:10 AM
I think you're being naive Anna if you think the rubbishing of Grime's reputation is not what's happening here. As to the dog alerts, if they are unimportant we are supporters still after eight years desperately trying to discredit them ?
There is nothing to "discredit". Grime deployed the dogs, there were a number of alerts. Material was gathered and and forensically tested. The forensic material offered nothing of evidential value. And there this particular avenue of enquiry rests.
Apart from a small group of people with very limited knowledge of legal process and evidence, who insist that the dog alets actually mean something. Without material evidence they do not.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 11:41:38 AM
There is nothing to "discredit". Grime deployed the dogs, there were a number of alerts. Material was gathered and and forensically tested. The forensic material offered nothing of evidential value. And there this particular avenue of enquiry rests.
Apart from a small group of people with very limited knowledge of legal process and evidence, who insist that the dog alets actually mean something. Without material evidence they do not.
You would think that wouldn't you JP ? So why the necessity to bring up MG's professional status at this point at all ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 11:50:59 AM
There is nothing to "discredit". Grime deployed the dogs, there were a number of alerts. Material was gathered and and forensically tested. The forensic material offered nothing of evidential value. And there this particular avenue of enquiry rests.
Apart from a small group of people with very limited knowledge of legal process and evidence, who insist that the dog alets actually mean something. Without material evidence they do not.
That is the problem. As long as people go on claiming that the dog alerts meant something then others will go on pointing out that they didn't. Any dog can find a cadaver if there is one, but on this occasion there wasn't. And nor was there any other evidence pointing to such.
Which brings us back to The Topic of This Thread. Hopefully.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 11:51:49 AM
Indeed Anna. What is important is that OG know the value of the dog alerts.
Which is Nil.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 11:52:37 AM
These dogs do a wonderful job in seeking out cadavers and the scent of cadavers, but unfortunately they are not infallible, which OC will no doubt have taken into account.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
There is nothing to "discredit". Grime deployed the dogs, there were a number of alerts. Material was gathered and and forensically tested. The forensic material offered nothing of evidential value. And there this particular avenue of enquiry rests.
Apart from a small group of people with very limited knowledge of legal process and evidence, who insist that the dog alets actually mean something. Without material evidence they do not.
Absolutely JP ... and entirely as pointed out by no less a person than Martin Grime himself.
That the function and value of the dog work carried out in PDL has been misunderstood in its entirety to become a shibboleth is another unfortunate aspect of Madeleine's case.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 11:56:20 AM
Sorry, Eleanor. We have all been slipping Off topic. Now hopefully we will all return to the topic of the thread.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 24, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
You would think that wouldn't you JP ? So why the necessity to bring up MG's professional status at this point at all ?
I am sure Grime would operate to highly professional standards whatever his position. However, it seems he did use the videos in pitching for the Jersey job. This opens his professional staus in Portugal as a legitimate area of interest - was he self employed or still with SYP?
Personally, I think he was unwise to use the videos in the way he apparently did, as this exposes him to critisism. He is operating in an area where professional standards and trust are paramount, and like Caesar's wife, he must be beyond suspicion. But maybe that is just me.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 11:57:27 AM
No Conviction of The McCanns. Sorry, I should have been more precise. Although I can't see the dogs contributing to the conviction of the abductor. Can you?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2015, 12:13:43 PM
I think you're being naive Anna if you think the rubbishing of Grime's reputation is not what's happening here. As to the dog alerts, if they are unimportant why are supporters still after eight years desperately trying to discredit them ?
no one is trying to discredit the...they are what they are. I reply to posts re the dogs because I object to misinformation....the alerts are subjective...evidence is objective...it's a simple as that
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 12:18:09 PM
These dogs do a wonderful job in seeking out cadavers and the scent of cadavers, but unfortunately they are not infallible, which OC will no doubt have taken into account.
Sometimes the McCanns do have my sincerest sympathy. To be residents of the only apartment that the cadaver dog alerted to in Luz that week when they had no idea what had happened to her must be beyond parody for them. Much like Adrian Prout must have felt when the cadaver dog alerted to.......oh hold on a minute that might not be such a great example..........hmmmm strike that.........it must be like Eugene Zapata felt when the cadaver dog alerted......nope strike that too......then it definitely must be how Stuart Hazell felt when the dogs alerted to....... Nope I give up. I'm afraid we'll just have to hope that OG have sought advice from the dog experts at the world renowned DeniabilityRUs who, I'm reliably informed, have shown many a perceived expert the error of their ways.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 12:20:24 PM
Sometimes the McCanns do have my sincerest sympathy. To be residents of the only apartment that the cadaver dog alerted to in Luz that week when they had no idea what had happened to her must be beyond parody for them. Much like Adrian Prout must have felt when the cadaver dog alerted to.......oh hold on a minute that might not be such a great example..........hmmmm strike that.........it must be like Eugene Zapata felt when the cadaver dog alerted......nope strike that too......then it definitely must be how Stuart Hazell felt when the dogs alerted to....... Nope I give up. I'm afraid we'll just have to hope that OG have sought advice from the dog experts at the world renowned DeniabilityRUs who, I'm reliably informed, have shown many a perceived expert the error of their ways.
Hopefully Martin Grime cleaned up his grandstanding act after the debacles in Portugal and Jersey.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 24, 2015, 12:32:30 PM
Sometimes the McCanns do have my sincerest sympathy. To be residents of the only apartment that the cadaver dog alerted to in Luz that week when they had no idea what had happened to her must be beyond parody for them. Much like Adrian Prout must have felt when the cadaver dog alerted to.......oh hold on a minute that might not be such a great example..........hmmmm strike that.........it must be like Eugene Zapata felt when the cadaver dog alerted......nope strike that too......then it definitely must be how Stuart Hazell felt when the dogs alerted to....... Nope I give up. I'm afraid we'll just have to hope that OG have sought advice from the dog experts at the world renowned DeniabilityRUs who, I'm reliably informed, have shown many a perceived expert the error of their ways.
Adrian Prout is a particularly good example, Faith. The dog alerts were in the wrong place.
By the way, just a quick point - your avatar is spelt wrong - it should read Je suis un Charlie 8)-)))
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2015, 12:32:46 PM
Oh, I don't know, Stephen. Maybe, maybe not. But the dogs won't have anything to do with any conviction.
No doubt that if the paedo burglary bin man gets nabbed, his house searched, Maddies short/long sleeve pyjamas are found in his wardrobe, a cadaver dog alerts there, & he confesses to her murder, you'll still believe he's innocent.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 01:11:08 PM
I do wonder how many people will still post on here if there is no resolution to this case.
I expect that I will still be here, Stephen. Short of gardening and decorating, I don't have a lot else to do. This has been a good part of my life for quite some time.
ESPECIALLY CADAVER DOG CONVICTIONS WITHOUT A BODY.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 01:13:28 PM
No doubt that if the paedo burglary bin man gets nabbed, his house searched, Maddies short/long sleeve pyjamas are found in his wardrobe, a cadaver dog alerts there, & he confesses to her murder, you'll still believe he's innocent.
Under those circumstances, why would I believe that The Abductor is innocent? Even without a body.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 01:15:25 PM
Because you believe in innocent until proven guilty.
I would only know these details after a Trial. And I don't think we are going to get any more incidents of slippery Police Station stairs. So a Cadaver Dog alert wouldn't be necessary.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: DCI on February 24, 2015, 01:38:04 PM
I would only know these details after a Trial. And I don't think we are going to get any more incidents of slippery Police Station stairs. So a Cadaver Dog alert wouldn't be necessary.
Some old colleague of Martin Grime didn't rate him much. An old poster from 3A's in 2008.
I would only know these details after a Trial. And I don't think we are going to get any more incidents of slippery Police Station stairs. So a Cadaver Dog alert wouldn't be necessary.
Even then, only what you'd get to read in a biased press, or in some incomplete & dodgy translations published by shifty low grade bloggers.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2015, 01:44:16 PM
I'm finding it difficult to find a reference to where Prout claimed he killed his wife. Do you have a cite ?
Thursday, detectives spoke to Prout and he finally admitted he had killed his wife and agreed to point out the spot where she was buried. Prout arrived at the farm in a people carrier just after 11.30am on Friday and was led out of the vehicle, handcuffed to a police officer.
Thursday, detectives spoke to Prout and he finally admitted he had killed his wife and agreed to point out the spot where she was buried. Prout arrived at the farm in a people carrier just after 11.30am on Friday and was led out of the vehicle, handcuffed to a police officer.
Thank you DCI but I was looking for verification that the murder took place in the summer house and that the body was never placed behind the sofa where, I believe, the cadaver dog alerted.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 24, 2015, 03:50:50 PM
British and European Polygraph Association chairman Don Cargill, recalled: “I said, ‘You’re a murderer.’ He just said ‘Ummmh.’ So I said, ‘Are you saying my test is wrong?’
“He actually replied, ‘No, your test is not wrong.’”
Don, also said: “He smiled in what was one of the most surreal and chilling experiences of my life.
“There was no emotion at all, he was really calm and cool, chillingly so.
“He’d been so used to being in control. He didn’t fool the jury but he’s fooled a lot of other people, his family and friends and his fiancee.
“I can understand why people fell for his lies – but of course, you can’t fool a polygraph.”
British and European Polygraph Association chairman Don Cargill, recalled: “I said, ‘You’re a murderer.’ He just said ‘Ummmh.’ So I said, ‘Are you saying my test is wrong?’
“He actually replied, ‘No, your test is not wrong.’”
Don, also said: “He smiled in what was one of the most surreal and chilling experiences of my life.
“There was no emotion at all, he was really calm and cool, chillingly so.
“He’d been so used to being in control. He didn’t fool the jury but he’s fooled a lot of other people, his family and friends and his fiancee.
“I can understand why people fell for his lies – but of course, you can’t fool a polygraph.”
Sometimes the McCanns do have my sincerest sympathy. To be residents of the only apartment that the cadaver dog alerted to in Luz that week when they had no idea what had happened to her must be beyond parody for them. Much like Adrian Prout must have felt when the cadaver dog alerted to.......oh hold on a minute that might not be such a great example..........hmmmm strike that.........it must be like Eugene Zapata felt when the cadaver dog alerted......nope strike that too......then it definitely must be how Stuart Hazell felt when the dogs alerted to....... Nope I give up. I'm afraid we'll just have to hope that OG have sought advice from the dog experts at the world renowned DeniabilityRUs who, I'm reliably informed, have shown many a perceived expert the error of their ways.
aS redwood has stated maddie may still be alive then he certainly understands the alerts for what they are
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
British and European Polygraph Association chairman Don Cargill, recalled: “I said, ‘You’re a murderer.’ He just said ‘Ummmh.’ So I said, ‘Are you saying my test is wrong?’
“He actually replied, ‘No, your test is not wrong.’”
Don, also said: “He smiled in what was one of the most surreal and chilling experiences of my life.
“There was no emotion at all, he was really calm and cool, chillingly so.
“He’d been so used to being in control. He didn’t fool the jury but he’s fooled a lot of other people, his family and friends and his fiancee.
“I can understand why people fell for his lies – but of course, you can’t fool a polygraph.”
We seem to have already had a full discussion on the fact that Kate Prout's body had never lain where the VRD indicated it had ... this one took place in 2013 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1112.105 ... and I clearly remember a similar discussion in 2014.
Does anyone know why the VRD did not indicate in the shooting lodge or in the vehicle used to transport Mrs Prout's remains?
EVIDENCE of a dead body inside murdered Kate Prout's home was discovered by a sniffer dog, it has emerged.
The "cadaver dog" homed in on an area in the living room of the Redmarley home she shared with her husband Adrian Prout, who was convicted of her killing last year.
An hour-long documentary on the murder case told how the dog, which was specially trained to seek out dead bodies and where deaths occurred, concentrated on a specific spot in the living room at Redhill Farm.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
The thing is we have no idea where the dog was taken on those first searches and we also have no idea what Prout did with his wife's body prior to burial.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2015, 04:45:03 PM
At the risk of appearing to be insensitive, which it certainly is, it would be worth bearing in mind that Mrs Prout had not wrapped herself in plastic sheeting prior to being murdered.
At some stage in the proceedings her remains were in direct contact with the place where she was killed.
At no time were her remains in the house. Therefore the VRD could not have alerted at the spot where her body had lain. The alert was just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 04:53:57 PM
At the risk of appearing to be insensitive, which it certainly is, it would be worth bearing in mind that Mrs Prout had not wrapped herself in plastic sheeting prior to being murdered.
At some stage in the proceedings her remains were in direct contact with the place where she was killed.
At no time were her remains in the house. Therefore the VRD could not have alerted at the spot where her body had lain. The alert was just plain wrong.
At the risk of repeating myself we have no idea what happened to the body after Mrs Prout was killed. In fact we only have the word of a convicted murderer for any of the information we do have.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 04:59:10 PM
At the risk of appearing to be insensitive, which it certainly is, it would be worth bearing in mind that Mrs Prout had not wrapped herself in plastic sheeting prior to being murdered.
At some stage in the proceedings her remains were in direct contact with the place where she was killed.
At no time were her remains in the house. Therefore the VRD could not have alerted at the spot where her body had lain. The alert was just plain wrong.
.....And how long did she lay there, stiff, it could have been just minutes, we'll never know.
...And the alert could be cross contamination, then again it might not, we'll never know.
Either way, sadly, the evil b........ murdered her.
That much we do know.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2015, 05:07:47 PM
.....And how long did she lay there, stiff, it could have been just minutes, we'll never know.
...And the alert could be cross contamination, then again it might not, we'll never know.
Either way, sadly, the evil b........ murdered her.
That much we do know.
Indeed we do know that Kate Prout was murdered by her husband.
Apparently Eddie neglected to indicate exactly where and although we are told he is exceptionally talented where vehicles are concerned ... the silly cookie ignored the Land Rover ... choosing instead a carpet in the farmhouse.
Not good ... however he can add it to the coconut shell error.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 05:16:38 PM
Indeed we do know that Kate Prout was murdered by her husband.
Apparently Eddie neglected to indicate exactly where and although we are told he is exceptionally talented where vehicles are concerned ... the silly cookie ignored the Land Rover ... choosing instead a carpet in the farmhouse.
Not good ... however he can add it to the coconut shell error.
For how long was she decomposing in the lodge & the Land Rover?
Any idea?
According to the rags, he only drove to the pub with her in the boot, apparently, before returning home & making good use of his digger.
She could have been dead for less than hour before he stuck her in the ground, in which case she'd probably still smell of perfume.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
Indeed we do know that Kate Prout was murdered by her husband.
Apparently Eddie neglected to indicate exactly where and although we are told he is exceptionally talented where vehicles are concerned ... the silly cookie ignored the Land Rover ... choosing instead a carpet in the farmhouse.
Not good ... however he can add it to the coconut shell error.
Was the body in the Land Rover ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 06:21:22 PM
For how long was she decomposing in the lodge & the Land Rover?
Any idea?
According to the rags, he only drove to the pub with her in the boot, apparently, before returning home & making good use of his digger.
She could have been dead for less than hour before he stuck her in the ground, in which case she'd probably still smell of perfume.
You think it's feasible he killed her, had a whiskey, wrapped up her body, loaded it into his Land Rover, drove to the pub (where according to one report he spent the evening, but let's play it your way and say he only stayed for one), drove back to his farm where he drove around his 276 acres looking for a suitable spot to bury her, got out, dug a hole, and then took her out of the Land Rover all within the space of less than an hour do you? He must be the same sort of super human speed as Gerry then, yar?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 06:35:15 PM
You think it's feasible he killed her, had a whiskey, wrapped up her body, loaded it into his Land Rover, drove to the pub (where according to one report he spent the evening, but let's play it your way and say he only stayed for one), drove back to his farm where he drove around his 276 acres looking for a suitable spot to bury her, got out, dug a hole, and then took her out of the Land Rover all within the space of less than an hour do you? He must be the same sort of super human speed as Gerry then, yar?
It's not impossible.
Wouldn't take him long to dig, he had heavy plant.
Maybe he did stay at the boozer for a while, I'm guessing it aint especially warm in the Gloucestershire countryside during November nights, that'd slow the rot a jot, one might think.
Either way, he's doing bird & that's all that matters.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 06:49:18 PM
Wouldn't take him long to dig, he had heavy plant.
Maybe he did stay at the boozer for a while, I'm guessing it aint especially warm in the Gloucestershire countryside during November nights, that'd slow the rot a jot, one might think.
Either way, he's doing bird & that's all that matters.
He had heavy plant conveniently located at the precise spot he wanted to bury the body did he?
Yeah, I'm sure you can think of any number of excuses why the dog didn't alert to a car where a body had lain for several hours, that's all that matters, eh? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 06:52:11 PM
BTW, Spammy, when exactly did Prout put his wife's corpse in his living room, in your view? Was that before or after taking her to the pub?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 07:01:24 PM
He had heavy plant conveniently located at the precise spot he wanted to dig the body did he?
Yeah, I'm sure you can think of any number of excuses why the dog didn't alert to a car where a body had lain for several hours, that's all that matters, eh? 8(0(*
conveniently located at the precise spot
He lived on a farm, he had plant there, that had wheels, go figure!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 07:03:14 PM
He lived on a farm, he had plant there, that had wheels, go figure!
Yes I know that Spammy, but I'm just factoring in the time it would take to drive or walk back to the digger, drive the digger to the burial spot, fetch the body and so on. It's all looking v-e-r-y tight in under an hour, I'm sure you can see that.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 07:13:11 PM
Yes I know that Spammy, but I'm just factoring in the time it would take to drive or walk back to the digger, drive the digger to the burial spot, fetch the body and so on. It's all looking v-e-r-y tight in under an hour, I'm sure you can see that.
Maybe it was more? Could have been even less!!!
Without knowing the precise details, one can but speculate, wildly, for a lark.
Shame the police files ain't up on the web, we could spend the next 7 to 8 years analysing the timeline.
One disturbing thing that crossed my mind is, if Kate had just settled for £600,000 + maintenance (ie, she wasn't so greedy), she might still be alive today.
Sad but true.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 07:29:29 PM
That's impossible to prove really isn't it, considering the dog alerts don't prove anything, as we're often reminded.
Where DID the dog alert? In the living room. According to you the corpse would not have started to emit any sort of odour until after Prout had buried it (conveniently allowing the dog to have failed to alert in the car), so what can we deduce from this? If the dog alerted, it wasn't to a corpse! Nor would there have been any cross-contamination cos Speedy ol' Prout did the whole murder to burial in under an hour!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 07:39:42 PM
Where DID the dog alert? In the living room. According to you the corpse would not have started to emit any sort of odour until after Prout had buried it (conveniently allowing the dog to have failed to alert in the car), so what can we deduce from this? There never was a corpse in the living room, right?
When did I say that?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 07:56:17 PM
Without knowing the precise details, one can but speculate, wildly, for a lark.
Shame the police files ain't up on the web, we could spend the next 7 to 8 years analysing the timeline.
One disturbing thing that crossed my mind is, if Kate had just settled for £600,000 + maintenance (ie, she wasn't so greedy), she might still be alive today.
Sad but true.
BTW, it doesn't surprise me one iota that it crossed your mind to blame the victim for her own murder. It's what you do.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 08:23:34 PM
Where DID the dog alert? In the living room. According to you the corpse would not have started to emit any sort of odour until after Prout had buried it (conveniently allowing the dog to have failed to alert in the car), so what can we deduce from this? If the dog alerted, it wasn't to a corpse! Nor would there have been any cross-contamination cos Speedy ol' Prout did the whole murder to burial in under an hour!
Sorry but have we established how far the burial site was from the farmhouse and would it have been possible to move the body there without the use of the land rover ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2015, 08:38:16 PM
Sorry but have we established how far the burial site was from the farmhouse and would it have been possible to move the body there without the use of the land rover ?
The body was plaved in the Range Rover and driven to the pub, then back to the farm as Prout searched for a suitable burial spot. Have you not read anything about this case before?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2015, 08:55:43 PM
Until Eddie strolled along and scented a corpse where one had never been.
It makes you think, don't it.
Her untouched bank accounts, all her belongings being left at home & Adrian not bothering to inform the police for about 4 days was a bit of a clue really though wasn't it.
Besides, The fact that the McCanns are neither persons of interest or suspects proves that cadaver dogs don't alert to cadaver scent in the first place.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 24, 2015, 08:58:06 PM
You think it's feasible he killed her, had a whiskey, wrapped up her body, loaded it into his Land Rover, drove to the pub (where according to one report he spent the evening, but let's play it your way and say he only stayed for one), drove back to his farm where he drove around his 276 acres looking for a suitable spot to bury her, got out, dug a hole, and then took her out of the Land Rover all within the space of less than an hour do you? He must be the same sort of super human speed as Gerry then, yar?
Good evening Alf. I would imagine he was pretty familiar with the farm so driving around searching would not come into into the equation, he would know. A competent digger operator would open up a trench shove in the body and backfill in about ten minutes; fifteen minutes top whack. How big do you think 276 acres is? (how big's a cubit anyway?). It would have a perimeter of about 4km so how long to drive round that? At 15kph that's about say 15 minutes. Even assuming he went the long way round the farm that still leaves 30/35 minutes to drive to the pub and have a quick one and so on. He wouldn't need to be greased lightning exactly. Just saying like 8(>(( Before you ask I am not saying anything other than he would be familiar with the farm; 15 minutes; 4km;15 minutes; residual time 30 minutes minimum.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 08:59:40 PM
Sorry but have we established how far the burial site was from the farmhouse and would it have been possible to move the body there without the use of the land rover ?
It was in woodland that he buried her and the police drove him there from his front in a 4X4. I cant see a photo of woodland around or near the house, but may wrong. Take your pick of the pictures, Faith
Good evening Alf. I would imagine he was pretty familiar with the farm so driving around searching would not come into into the equation, he would know. A competent digger operator would open up a trench shove in the body and backfill in about ten minutes; fifteen minutes top whack. How big do you think 276 acres is? (how big's a cubit anyway?). It would have a perimeter of about 4km so how long to drive round that? At 15kph that's about say 15 minutes. Even assuming he went the long way round the farm that still leaves 30/35 minutes to drive to the pub and have a quick one and so on. He wouldn't need to be greased lightning exactly. Just saying like 8(>(( Before you ask I am not saying anything other than he would be familiar with the farm; 15 minutes; 4km;15 minutes; residual time 30 minutes minimum.
Thank you for your input. Interesting that you always challenge my point of view, and rarely if ever agree with it. But I'm glad you agree with Spam that it was do-able. Now you can turn your towering intellect to explaining what the dog alerted to in the living room.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2015, 09:03:13 PM
Her untouched bank accounts, all her belongings being left at home & Adrian not bothering to inform the police for about 4 days was a bit of a clue really though wasn't it.
Besides, The fact that the McCanns are neither persons of interest or suspects proves that cadaver dogs don't alert to cadaver scent in the first place.
They didn't have anything at all on The McCanns.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2015, 09:09:20 PM
Her untouched bank accounts, all her belongings being left at home & Adrian not bothering to inform the police for about 4 days was a bit of a clue really though wasn't it.
Besides, The fact that the McCanns are neither persons of interest or suspects proves that cadaver dogs don't alert to cadaver scent in the first place.
I'll let it go this time but your mention of the mccanns is off topic
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2015, 09:20:06 PM
... the McCanns were unfamiliar with Praia Da Luz having been there for a matter of days, so how on earth were they able to locate a hiding place for a little girls body which remained undiscovered by locals, by civilian searchers, by police dog teams, by forestry workers, by firemen and by feral dogs and other scavengers?
They did not have access to digging implements either mechanical or manual.
Mind you ... the PJ did have a barking dog to put up against them ... pity it was so prone to getting 'the scent of death' wrong.
In the Prout case the dog alerted to a spot where there had been no body and totally ignored the murder scene. I wonder how far behind that put the case against Adrian Prout? The police would have torn what they thought was the crime scene apart in the meantime there could have been forensic traces in the shooting lodge ... but who was looking there.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 09:21:17 PM
Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest in Gloucester that Prout was 'tearful and remorseful' as he confessed to killing his wife.
He said: 'To make everything appear normal, he then went to a local pub for the evening. 'He drove around the farm looking for somewhere to bury the body and he settled on an area called Cophill Wood, where he buried it under a pheasant pen.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2139103/Millionaire-farmer-strangled-wife-driving-pub-glass-whisky-inquest-hears.html#ixzz3ShReDGgw Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
----------------------------
Amazing what you can do in an hour innit?!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 09:30:47 PM
It was in woodland that he buried her and the police drove him there from his front in a 4X4. I cant see a photo of woodland around or near the house, but may wrong. Take your pick of the pictures, Faith
... the McCanns were unfamiliar with Praia Da Luz having been there for a matter of days, so how on earth were they able to locate a hiding place for a little girls body which remained undiscovered by locals, by civilian searchers, by police dog teams, by forestry workers, by firemen and by feral dogs and other scavengers?
They did not have access to digging implements either mechanical or manual.
Mind you ... the PJ did have a barking dog to put up against them ... pity it was so prone to getting 'the scent of death' wrong.
In the Prout case the dog alerted to a spot where there had been no body and totally ignored the murder scene. I wonder how far behind that put the case against Adrian Prout? The police would have torn what they thought was the crime scene apart in the meantime there could have been forensic traces in the shooting lodge ... but who was looking there.
Large bins proliferate PDL and there would certainly be on the route Smithman seemed to be taking. If the body was found during the searches any injuries found on or drugs found in the body could be blamed on the abductor. If the body was not found then it may have been the plan to move it to a safer, more appropriate place of interment later. Unfortunately Smithman wasn't aware of the early morning bin collections.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry but have we established how far the burial site was from the farmhouse and would it have been possible to move the body there without the use of the land rover ?
I believe he killed her in the hunting lodge... as his confession and then when sure she was dead, wrapped her up and went to the pub. I can't see what he would gain from lying. I don't know where the hunting lodge was, but it should be in a photo somewhere. Sorry I can't help further.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2015, 09:50:50 PM
Many past and ongoing studies have been conducted to ascertain various aspects of the skills of working dogs; from those trained to sniff out bed bugs to those trained to sniff out cancers.
The influence of handlers on their dogs is also of interest to scientists.
Although the testing carried out and recorded in the abstract printed below concerns drug and explosive search dogs the same outcomes would be expected of sniffer dogs of all disciplines as the relationship of dog and human is what makes the team work effectively.
I found the test results of interest.
Handler beliefs affect scent detection dog outcomes. Lit L1, Schweitzer JB, Oberbauer AM. Author information Abstract
Our aim was to evaluate how human beliefs affect working dog outcomes in an applied environment.
We asked whether beliefs of scent detection dog handlers affect team performance and evaluated relative importance of human versus dog influences on handlers' beliefs.
Eighteen drug and/or explosive detection dog/handler teams each completed two sets of four brief search scenarios (conditions).
Handlers were falsely told that two conditions contained a paper marking scent location (human influence).
Two conditions contained decoy scents (food/toy) to encourage dog interest in a false location (dog influence).
Conditions were (1) control; (2) paper marker; (3) decoy scent; and (4) paper marker at decoy scent.
No conditions contained drug or explosive scent; any alerting response was incorrect.
A repeated measures analysis of variance was used with search condition as the independent variable and number of alerts as the dependent variable.
Additional nonparametric tests compared human and dog influence.
There were 225 incorrect responses, with no differences in mean responses across conditions.
Response patterns differed by condition.
There were more correct (no alert responses) searches in conditions without markers.
Within marked conditions, handlers reported that dogs alerted more at marked locations than other locations.
Handlers' beliefs that scent was present potentiated handler identification of detection dog alerts.
Human more than dog influences affected alert locations.
This confirms that handler beliefs affect outcomes of scent detection dog deployments.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21225441
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 10:01:40 PM
I believe he killed her in the hunting lodge... as his confession and then when sure she was dead, wrapped her up and went to the pub. I can't see what he would gain from lying. I don't know where the hunting lodge was, but it should be in a photo somewhere. Sorry I can't help further.
No problem Anna but I just can't seem to find any mention of the hunting lodge but I'm sure someone will provide me with a cite soon enough.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: DCI on February 24, 2015, 10:02:56 PM
I believe he killed her in the hunting lodge... as his confession and then when sure she was dead, wrapped her up and went to the pub. I can't see what he would gain from lying. I don't know where the hunting lodge was, but it should be in a photo somewhere. Sorry I can't help further.
Does this help, lodge to the left on pic, I think!
Of course not but the article you link to below only says this :
Snip... 'It is thought he has admitted he strangled Kate in a shooting lodge at the farm on Bonfire Night 2007 after she demanded an £800,000 clean-break divorce he could not afford without selling the estate.'
I'm afraid I was looking for evidence that he had confessed to strangling her in the hunting lodge but so far all I've found is supposition such as the claim above.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 24, 2015, 10:40:11 PM
Of course not but the article you link to below only says this :
Snip... 'It is thought he has admitted he strangled Kate in a shooting lodge at the farm on Bonfire Night 2007 after she demanded an £800,000 clean-break divorce he could not afford without selling the estate.'
I'm afraid I was looking for evidence that he had confessed to strangling her in the hunting lodge but so far all I've found is supposition such as the claim above.
Well hopefully Anna has now allayed your concerns.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2015, 10:54:59 PM
Thank you for your input. Interesting that you always challenge my point of view, and rarely if ever agree with it. But I'm glad you agree with Spam that it was do-able. Now you can turn your towering intellect to explaining what the dog alerted to in the living room.
We don't know the full facts. I think a domestic argument would start inside the house rather than her chasing after him to the lodge where he then killed her. The dog would have alerted at that spot in the lodge if she died there. We need to know if Eddie only searched the house or where else he searched.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 11:35:29 PM
We don't know the full facts. I think a domestic argument would start inside the house rather than her chasing after him to the lodge where he then killed her. The dog would have alerted at that spot in the lodge if she died there. We need to know if Eddie only searched the house or where else he searched.
We know that he killed her in the lodge. Would there be any reason why he would confess to killing her but then lie about where the killng took place? He then put her in his car. Can you think of any reason why he would have moved her to the house first?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2015, 11:42:58 PM
The Prout property was subject to an extensive search, including the use of a cadaver dog. It alerted only in the living room, not to the lodge where she was murdered, not to the Land Rover in which her body must have lain for at least an hour after death (if the reports are true and Prout spent the evening at the pub). Nor did it alert to the spot where she lay buried. This was not the dog handler's finest hour.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 25, 2015, 12:06:03 AM
The Prout property was subject to an extensive search, including the use of a cadaver dog. It alerted only in the living room, not to the lodge where she was murdered, not to the Land Rover in which her body must have lain for at least an hour after death (if the reports are true and Prout spent the evening at the pub). Nor did it alert to the spot where she lay buried. This was not the dog handler's finest hour.
If the body was moved fro the lodge to the livingroom very quickly, perhaps there wasn't anything with which to wrap the body in at the lodge or it was too public a place with farm staff killing about, then there wouldn't be enough time for cadaver scent to develop. As to the Land Rover, do we know if Eddie was ever taken to examine it and do we know if the burial site was within the distance within which Eddie can smell cadaver scent ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 25, 2015, 12:18:52 AM
Thank you for your input. Interesting that you always challenge my point of view, and rarely if ever agree with it. But I'm glad you agree with Spam that it was do-able. Now you can turn your towering intellect to explaining what the dog alerted to in the living room.
My towering intellect as you so sarcastically put it does not "do" dogs and sniffing. That is just too nebulous for my practical mind. I was just chucking numbers about. Do you disagree with the numbers? If so on what basis and what are your numbers?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 08:32:41 AM
If the body was moved fro the lodge to the livingroom very quickly, perhaps there wasn't anything with which to wrap the body in at the lodge or it was too public a place with farm staff killing about, then there wouldn't be enough time for cadaver scent to develop. As to the Land Rover, do we know if Eddie was ever taken to examine it and do we know if the burial site was within the distance within which Eddie can smell cadaver scent ?
According to the rags, Adrian throttled her in the hunting lodge, had a whiskey, then set about getting rid.
Is it reasonable to assume that, had a cadaver dog been present in the lodge at the time of her murder, it would begin alerting the moment he loosened his grip?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 09:35:17 AM
My towering intellect as you so sarcastically put it does not "do" dogs and sniffing. That is just too nebulous for my practical mind. I was just chucking numbers about. Do you disagree with the numbers? If so on what basis and what are your numbers?
I disagree that a man can murder his wife, have a whiskey, wrap her up, put her in his car, drive to the pub, have at least one more drink intent on appearing normal to the locals, drive back to his farm, decide on a suitable spot to bury her, fetch the digger, dig a hole deep enough that it takes 4 days of police searches (including dogs) to finally locate the body, and to do this all in under an hour, yes. Call me ker-azy, I simply don't have your brilliant grasp of the numbers!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 09:41:04 AM
If the body was moved fro the lodge to the livingroom very quickly, perhaps there wasn't anything with which to wrap the body in at the lodge or it was too public a place with farm staff killing about, then there wouldn't be enough time for cadaver scent to develop. As to the Land Rover, do we know if Eddie was ever taken to examine it and do we know if the burial site was within the distance within which Eddie can smell cadaver scent ?
If there were staff "killing" (sic) about then moving an uncovered dead body from hunting lodge to house would be really risky wouldn't it? Oh, but then I forget - you're a fan of the theory that a father could parade the corpse of his dead child through the streets of a holiday town, so I suppose in your world anything's possible as long as it preserves the integrity of the super dogs.
As to the Land Rover, if the dog was not sent in to check it then you'd have to wonder what sort of extensive searches of the entire farm with dogs these actually were. Not very thorough, if you're excusing the dog on the basis it never went near the murderer's car or the spot on his farm where he disposed of the body!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 10:06:09 AM
If there were staff "killing" (sic) about then moving an uncovered dead body from hunting lodge to house would be really risky wouldn't it? Oh, but then I forget - you're a fan of the theory that a father could parade the corpse of his dead child through the streets of a holiday town, so I suppose in your world anything's possible as long as it preserves the integrity of the super dogs.
As to the Land Rover, if the dog was not sent in to check it then you'd have to wonder what sort of extensive searches of the entire farm with dogs these actually were.Not very thorough, if you're excusing the dog on the basis it never went near the murderer's car or the spot on his farm where he disposed of the body!
Do we have the exact details of the dog search locations?
No, we don't.
And do we have the precise wording of Mr Prouts confession?
No, we don't got that neither, so, it's all speculation innit.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 10:12:58 AM
However nothing I have read so far has made it impossible that the dog's alert in the living room was indeed correct.
Apart from the fact that in none of the reports of the killing was it mentioned that Prout moved the body to the living room first before putting it in the car.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 25, 2015, 10:39:26 AM
Apart from the fact that in none of the reports of the killing was it mentioned that Prout moved the body to the living room first before putting it in the car.
Reports not verbatim copies of his confession.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 25, 2015, 11:14:37 AM
Apart from the fact that in none of the reports of the killing was it mentioned that Prout moved the body to the living room first before putting it in the car.
Eddie alerted to cadaver scent in the living room and he wasn't wrong because a person had been killed on that farm and his alert turned the investigation towards Adrian Prout as being the killer. Was Eddie wrong?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 25, 2015, 11:18:02 AM
I disagree that a man can murder his wife, have a whiskey, wrap her up, put her in his car, drive to the pub, have at least one more drink intent on appearing normal to the locals, drive back to his farm, decide on a suitable spot to bury her, fetch the digger, dig a hole deep enough that it takes 4 days of police searches (including dogs) to finally locate the body, and to do this all in under an hour, yes. Call me ker-azy, I simply don't have your brilliant grasp of the numbers!
So in other words just an idea based on nothing more than your opinion of what you think the timescales should be ? Added to your presumption that the guy does not know his own land short back and sideways. That is scarcely an objective assessment on your part. Do a sense check then Alf it doesn't take long. I am not saying because it could happen it did happen you understand that is a different proposition altogether.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:25:56 AM
If Prout had confessed he moved the body to the living room then by now we would no doubt have heard about it, if only from those who champion the dog's abilities, or who make a living from them.
The police searches of Redhill Farm took 60 officers 5 weeks - dogs were employed during these searches. They were obviously quite thorough - the idea that they failed to search the hunting lodge or Prout's vehicle is highly unlikely IMO.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 11:33:09 AM
If Prout had confessed he moved the body to the living room then by now we would no doubt have heard about it, if only from those who champion the dog's abilities, or who make a living from them.
The police searches of Redhill Farm took 60 officers 5 weeks - dogs were employed during these searches. They were obviously quite thorough - the idea that they failed to search the hunting lodge or Prout's vehicle is highly unlikely IMO.
Why?
What reason would the fuzz have for mentioning it, when the case is solved & has been for several years?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:35:12 AM
So in other words just an idea based on nothing more than your opinion of what you think the timescales should be ? Added to your presumption that the guy does not know his own land short back and sideways. That is scarcely an objective assessment on your part. Do a sense check then Alf it doesn't take long. I am not saying because it could happen it did happen you understand that is a different proposition altogether.
I think it's a sensible assessment on my part Alice. Sometimes common sense is required when considering what is and is not possible. Do you possess any? If you think it is possible that Prout did everything I have highlighted that we know he did that night within an hour then that is based on nothing more than YOUR opinion of what is feasible to achieve within an hour, is it not? So - what makes you more likely to be right than me (apart from your far superior intellect of course)?
I don't understand your point that I have presumed the man didn't know his own farm - did I say that?! No. Of course he knew his farm, but had he already pre-determined where on his farm would be a good spot to hide a body, in your view? Or is there a possibility that (as the reports have already stated) he drove around his land deciding on a suitable spot AFTER killing his wife?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:36:13 AM
Why did the Fuzz reveal many of the other details of his confession then? Such as the fact that he had a whiskey before covering up his wife's body?
Why didn't they release the whole thing?
Why do some reports say she was wrapped in a curtain then shoved in the Land Rover, when her corpse was discovered in both a curtain & plastic sheeting?
They never mentioned when exactly, or indeed where he applied the plastic sheet?
Why not?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 11:43:58 AM
I don't think he planned this, so he would have needed a good long think about what to do. But I seriously can't see him moving the body into the house and then out again to the car. There wouldn't have been time for death scent in the house anyway. But there would in the car. Was Eddie taken to the car? Or did the police think his alert in the lounge was good enough?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: lordpookles on February 25, 2015, 11:51:15 AM
Dead body and cadaver dog alerts. Is there any need to say anymore unless you wish to discredit the dogs in some way? We don't know the details folks. He could have easily decided to take the body in the house for a short period and give himself time to think away from prying eyes. Also, reports I have read have quoted just 10 minutes for the time needed for a dead body to be in situ.
Can a person go down the pub, act normal etc after doing something so grim? Def possible imo for a cool customer and someone with little empathy. People can lie very well and in general people are pretty bad at knowing if other people are lying.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 11:51:44 AM
I don't think he planned this, so he would have needed a good long think about what to do. But I seriously can't see him moving the body into the house and then out again to the car. There wouldn't have been time for death scent in the house anyway. But there would in the car. Was Eddie taken to the car? Or did the police think his alert in the lounge was good enough?
He had more than one 4x4 & tractor, apparently.
And we simply don't know where exactly & for what length of time, the cadaver dog(s) searched.
Or indeed, the rate at which she decomposed following her murder, or furthermore, how long it actually takes for a corpse to start emitting an amount of scent sufficient for a dog to detect, or sumink.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:53:44 AM
Why do some reports say she was wrapped in a curtain then shoved in the Land Rover, when her corpse was discovered in both a curtain & plastic sheeting?
They never mentioned when exactly, or indeed where he applied the plastic sheet?
Why not?
If he had confessed to moving her to the lounge then in my opinion this important detail would have been released to the press as it would have vindicated the dog alert, something I'm sure the police would have been keen to do, seeing as how the dog alert played a big part in convincing the police of his guilt in the first place.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:55:44 AM
And we simply don't know where exactly & for what length of time, the cadaver dog(s) searched.
Or indeed, the rate at which she decomposed following her murder, or furthermore, how long it actually takes for a corpse to start emitting an amount of scent sufficient for a dog to detect, or sumink.
What you are basically saying is we don't know shit about anything so shut up. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:56:48 AM
Dead body and cadaver dog alerts. Is there any need to say anymore unless you wish to discredit the dogs in some way? We don't know the details folks. He could have easily decided to take the body in the house for a short period and give himself time to think away from prying eyes. Also, reports I have read have quoted just 10 minutes for the time needed for a dead body to be in situ.
Can a person go down the pub, act normal etc after doing something so grim? Def possible imo for a cool customer and someone with little empathy. People can lie very well and in general people are pretty bad at knowing if other people are lying.
10 minutes? But we have been assured by eminent "sceptics" in the field that the minimum time is 90 minutes. Or 60 minutes. Or something.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 12:01:16 PM
If he had confessed to moving her to the lounge then in my opinion this important detail would have been released to the press as it would have vindicated the dog alert, something I'm sure the police would have been keen to do, seeing as how the dog alert played a big part in convincing the police of his guilt in the first place.
Had the press been particularly critical or sceptical of the dog alert?
The dog alert wasn't the sole reason for him being the prime suspect.
The cops didn't believe she'd done a Reggie Perrin, & were unconvinced by his failiure to report her missing.
And we simply don't know where exactly & for what length of time, the cadaver dog(s) searched.
Or indeed, the rate at which she decomposed following her murder, or furthermore, how long it actually takes for a corpse to start emitting an amount of scent sufficient for a dog to detect, or sumink.
What month was is? I haven't seen that, probably because I wasn't looking for it until now.
According to the research over seven years, it takes about an hour for decomposition to start for a dog to detect it. This makes sense to me, although I really don't want to go into details. I just can't go with The Lounge Theory, for more reasons than one.
You are right again. We don't know exactly where the dogs searched. But the thing is that he was convicted without a body.
I really don't have a problem with Cadaver Dogs as such. But I ain't keen on convictions on that alone. Which I don't think this was.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
Dead body and cadaver dog alerts. Is there any need to say anymore unless you wish to discredit the dogs in some way? We don't know the details folks. He could have easily decided to take the body in the house for a short period and give himself time to think away from prying eyes. Also, reports I have read have quoted just 10 minutes for the time needed for a dead body to be in situ.
Can a person go down the pub, act normal etc after doing something so grim? Def possible imo for a cool customer and someone with little empathy. People can lie very well and in general people are pretty bad at knowing if other people are lying.
It's ten minutes IF the body has been dead for more than an hour before being placed in situ.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 25, 2015, 12:41:28 PM
If he had confessed to moving her to the lounge then in my opinion this important detail would have been released to the press as it would have vindicated the dog alert, something I'm sure the police would have been keen to do, seeing as how the dog alert played a big part in convincing the police of his guilt in the first place.
Why do you think that once the police's thesis had been proved correct by the confession of Prout that they'd be the slightest bit interested in highlighting which parts they'd actually got right ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 12:49:13 PM
Why do you think that once the police's thesis had been proved correct by the confession of Prout that they'd be the slightest bit interested in highlighting which parts they'd actually got right ?
Probably not. They wouldn't want to diss the dogs. This discussion would have been much more interesting before he confessed.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: DCI on February 25, 2015, 12:50:16 PM
What month was is? I haven't seen that, probably because I wasn't looking for it until now.
According to the research over seven years, it takes about an hour for decomposition to start for a dog to detect it. This makes sense to me, although I really don't want to go into details. I just can't go with The Lounge Theory, for more reasons than one.
You are right again. We don't know exactly where the dogs searched. But the thing is that he was convicted without a body.
I really don't have a problem with Cadaver Dogs as such. But I ain't keen on convictions on that alone. Which I don't think this was.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: John on February 25, 2015, 12:51:34 PM
Apologies if this has already been covered earlier. I just want to add that Kate was strangled in the hunting lodge which is located quite a bit away from the farm bungalow where the dogs alerted. She was wrapped in a curtain from the same hunting lodge before being put in the back of Adrian's Land Rover while he went to the pub.
Now the question is this, at what stage thereafter was her remains taken to the bungalow?
eta What's interesting about this case is that Kate would never have been found had Adrian not confessed.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 12:53:40 PM
Why do you think that once the police's thesis had been proved correct by the confession of Prout that they'd be the slightest bit interested in highlighting which parts they'd actually got right ?
I think those who take an interest in the promotion of the dogs' abilities would be interested in highlighting that detail, don't you?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 12:55:38 PM
Apologies if this has already been covered earlier. I just want to add that Kate was strangled in the hunting lodge which is located quite a bit away from the farm bungalow where the dogs alerted. She was wrapped in a curtain from the same hunting lodge before being put in the back of Adrian's Land Rover while he went to the pub.
Now the question is this, at what stage thereafter was her remains taken to the bungalow?
Thanks John. According to all the reports her remains were not taken back to the house. Prout drove straight from the pub with her body in the back to find a burial spot on his land where he disposed of the body.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 12:57:26 PM
Apologies if this has already been covered earlier. I just want to add that Kate was strangled in the hunting lodge which is located quite a bit away from the farm bungalow where the dogs alerted. She was wrapped in a curtain from the same hunting lodge before being put in the back of Adrian's Land Rover while he went to the pub.
Now the question is this, at what stage thereafter was her remains taken to the bungalow?
eta What's interesting about this case is that Kate would never have been found had Adrian not confessed.
Her remains almost certainly weren't taken to the bungalow. Why would he do that?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: John on February 25, 2015, 12:59:45 PM
Thanks John. According to all the reports her remains were not taken back to the house. Prout drove straight from the pub with her body in the back to find a burial spot on his land where he disposed of the body.
Personally I don't think he would have risked taking a cadaver back to the bungalow.
Quite possibly the contaminant from his own clothing including footwear and trousers left cadaver scent in the bungalow. Strangely though, the dogs never recorded an alert in the Land Rover, maybe he jet-washed or steam cleaned it, something he couldn't have done so easily in the house without attracting attention.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: DCI on February 25, 2015, 01:06:38 PM
Personally I don't think he would have risked taking a cadaver back to the bungalow.
Quite possibly the contaminant from his own clothing including footwear and trousers left cadaver scent in the bungalow. Strangely though, the dogs never recorded an alert in the Land Rover, maybe he jet-washed or steam cleaned it.
I can't see that John. Didn't Grime say scent could be picked up even after cleaning.
Don't forget Kate McCann supposedly cleaned and bleached everywhere, according to some. How many times was their apartment cleaned in the 3 months before the dogs went in? So called alerts were still found.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
I can't see that John. Didn't Grime say scent could be picked up even after cleaning.
Don't forget Kate McCann supposedly cleaned and bleached everywhere, according to some. How many times was their apartment cleaned in the 3 months before the dogs went in? So called alerts were still found.
Could, not that it definitely would.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 01:19:26 PM
Personally I don't think he would have risked taking a cadaver back to the bungalow.
Quite possibly the contaminant from his own clothing including footwear and trousers left cadaver scent in the bungalow. Strangely though, the dogs never recorded an alert in the Land Rover, maybe he jet-washed or steam cleaned it, something he couldn't have done so easily in the house without attracting attention.
Last week, an unnamed police source reportedly went further. "If he [Prout] killed her, he had five days to cover his tracks," he was quoted as saying. "You can do a lot in five days."
I can't see that John. Didn't Grime say scent could be picked up even after cleaning.
Don't forget Kate McCann supposedly cleaned and bleached everywhere, according to some. How many times was their apartment cleaned in the 3 months before the dogs went in? So called alerts were still found.
Might have been instructive if an instrument for sensory analysis had been used in the Prout lounge and in the McCann bedroom to check the VOCs which apparently set Eddie off. Bringing in another VRD trained to locate human remains might have determined
(a) was Eddie's reaction confirmed by a second dog doing a 'blind' check
(b) what was the composition of the smell
Apparently Adrian Prout kept spaniels (gun dogs?) ... maybe Eddie fell in love with a lady spaniel's favourite rug.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
Might have been instructive if an instrument for sensory analysis had been used in the Prout lounge and in the McCann bedroom to check the VOCs which apparently set Eddie off. Bringing in another VRD trained to locate human remains might have determined
(a) was Eddie's reaction confirmed by a second dog doing a 'blind' check
(b) what was the composition of the smell
Apparently Adrian Prout kept spaniels (gun dogs?) ... maybe Eddie fell in love with a lady spaniel's favourite rug.
Perhaps Adrian developed a taste for Sea Bass, or came into contact with dead pigs.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: DCI on February 25, 2015, 01:34:46 PM
Grime Said.
She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 01:36:35 PM
She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles
She?
Great work Sherlock.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: DCI on February 25, 2015, 01:43:03 PM
'Dead body scent' cannot be removed by cleaning. The compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to separate odour and identify specific compounds' and mixes to cellular level. A similar system would be a device similar to an electron microscope.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: misty on February 25, 2015, 01:59:16 PM
It puzzles me why a cadaver dog would be used before a specialist blood dog. Didn't Grime only deploy Keela if Eddie had indicated? Why look for evidence of death before blood - can anyone explain?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 25, 2015, 01:59:30 PM
I disagree that a man can murder his wife, have a whiskey, wrap her up, put her in his car, drive to the pub, have at least one more drink intent on appearing normal to the locals, drive back to his farm, decide on a suitable spot to bury her, fetch the digger, dig a hole deep enough that it takes 4 days of police searches (including dogs) to finally locate the body, and to do this all in under an hour, yes. Call me ker-azy, I simply don't have your brilliant grasp of the numbers!
Did he use a digger? Is a shovel a digger? . The grave was dug in a wooded area and the ground would be hard in November. I know the area well.
I think if Eddie sensed a cadaver odour in the lounge, it was probably cross contamination.
They had a lot of cadaver dogs helping with the search for the body. Adrian had shown them the spot, but it still took, I believe 4 days to locate the body.
================ He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
Did he use a digger? Is a shovel a digger? . The grave was dug in a wooded area and the ground would be hard in November. I know the area well.
I think if Eddie sensed a cadaver odour in the lounge, it was probably cross contamination.
They had a lot of cadaver dogs helping with the search for the body. Adrian had shown them the spot, but it still took, I believe 4 days to locate the body.
================ He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
Read more: http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Kate-Prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html#ixzz3SlWV18oK Follow us: @GlosCitizen on Twitter | GlosCitizen on Facebook
The press say that Mr Bean said that Prout said that...
...and no mention of plastic?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 02:06:42 PM
Did he use a digger? Is a shovel a digger? . The grave was dug in a wooded area and the ground would be hard in November. I know the area well.
I think if Eddie sensed a cadaver odour in the lounge, it was probably cross contamination.
They had a lot of cadaver dogs helping with the search for the body. Adrian had shown them the spot, but it still took, I believe 4 days to locate the body.
================ He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
Perhaps Adrian developed a taste for Sea Bass, or came into contact with dead pigs.
Well actually, Spam, You have something there. They did keep pigs and the pig pens were inspected for any signs of her body............Before he confessed, that is.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 02:12:56 PM
I don't think he could have used a digger because it was a Pheasant Pen. It will have had a fence around it.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 02:19:49 PM
I was reliably informed by Spammy that Prout used a mechanical digger. Perhaps I need to cross-check my "sauces" 8(0(*
That's the first mention of a shovel that I've seen.
He owned a pipe laying business, & had experience of digging big old holes.
When I read that...
He is thought to have strangled her to death and then used his expertise as a professional pipe layer to bury her body underground somewhere on their 276-acre estate in Gloucestershire.
That's the first mention of a shovel that I've seen.
He owned a pipe laying business, & had experience of digging big old holes.
When I read that...
He is thought to have strangled her to death and then used his expertise as a professional pipe layer to bury her body underground somewhere on their 276-acre estate in Gloucestershire.
and added it to the fact that he owned mechanical hardware & it took 'em four days to exhume her ,I assumed wrongly, he dug nice & deep.
Praps not then.
Re: the bit in bold - written before he confessed presumably. He obviously did bury her deep as it took the recovery team (and dogs) such a long time to locate her remains even though he pointed out to them where he dug the hole.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 02:47:40 PM
That's the first mention of a shovel that I've seen.
He owned a pipe laying business, & had experience of digging big old holes.
When I read that...
He is thought to have strangled her to death and then used his expertise as a professional pipe layer to bury her body underground somewhere on their 276-acre estate in Gloucestershire.
and added it to the fact that he owned mechanical hardware & it took 'em four days to exhume her ,I assumed wrongly, he dug nice & deep.
Praps not then.
It certainly gives that impression. In fact one might wonder why he didn't. Excepting that it was the middle of the night, and he was going to be busy the next day.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 02:51:35 PM
Adrian Prout, 49, then wrapped his wife Kate's body in a curtain and placed it in the back of his Land Rover and drove to a pub.
.......
Mrs Prout's remains were found wrapped in a curtain and plastic sheeting, the inquest at Gloucestershire Coroner's Court heard.
When did he put the plastic on, that's what I don't get?!
....and in the Worcester News, she was in a carpet!
Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest that Prout confessed to wrapping the body in a carpet and plastic sheeting and putting it in his Range Rover.
It certainly gives that impression. In fact one might wonder why he didn't. Excepting that it was the middle of the night, and he was going to be busy the next day.
The noise? and it was in the wooded area, so could be difficult to get a digger in, without cutting down a lot of brush etc. Just a thought. And as you said The pheasant pen was fenced and it would need to be ...lots of foxes
Also It would have taken him much longer to dig a grave by hand, so the body was laying about for some time. He couldn't have killed her, had a drink, checked to make sure she was dead, decide what to do next, find something to wrap her in, wrap her in curtain, check the coast was clear, lifted her into the boot, gone to the pub, had at least one drink while deciding what to do. drive back and pick up a shovel, find a spot, dig a grave lift her into it and fill it in....in less than an hour, surely?. He fractured her neck in several places, so she may have had blood coming from her mouth.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: jassi on February 25, 2015, 02:56:27 PM
A divergence, but I see that police are currently using specialist dogs to search a back alleyway outside where Claudia Lawrence lived before her disappearance, so the police must have confidence in the ability of these dogs. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11434335/Claudia-Lawrence-Police-say-lovers-have-been-lying.html
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 25, 2015, 02:56:39 PM
When did he put the plastic on, that's what I don't get?!
....and in the Worcester News, she was in a carpet!
Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest that Prout confessed to wrapping the body in a carpet and plastic sheeting and putting it in his Range Rover.
A divergence, but I see that police are currently using specialist dogs to search a back alleyway outside where Claudia Lawrence lived before her disappearance, so the police must have confidence in the ability of these dogs. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11434335/Claudia-Lawrence-Police-say-lovers-have-been-lying.html
Who said they didn't?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 03:12:07 PM
A divergence, but I see that police are currently using specialist dogs to search a back alleyway outside where Claudia Lawrence lived before her disappearance, so the police must have confidence in the ability of these dogs. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11434335/Claudia-Lawrence-Police-say-lovers-have-been-lying.html
One can only speculate as to why the dogs weren't deployed within days of her disappearance, in the light of rave reviews.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 03:19:54 PM
I can't see that John. Didn't Grime say scent could be picked up even after cleaning.
Don't forget Kate McCann supposedly cleaned and bleached everywhere, according to some. How many times was their apartment cleaned in the 3 months before the dogs went in? So called alerts were still found.
Yes but depends on the type of cleaning and if the surface being cleaned is porous.
Adrian had tried to strangle Kate on a previous occasion so he was predisposed to domestic violence. They had been arguing foir a while over a potential divorce settlement but on the night of the murder out was Kate who pursued him out to the shooting lodge where the final confrontation took place.
Adrian used one of the mechanical excavators to bury Kate. The depth of the grave, the fact she was buried in plastic sheeting and the pheasant waste all helped to mask the burial site from the dogs.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 03:35:17 PM
Yes but depends on the type of cleaning and if the surface being cleaned is porous.
Adrian had tried to strangle Kate on a previous occasion so he was predisposed to domestic violence. They had been arguing foir a while over a potential divorce settlement but on the night of the murder out was Kate who pursued him out to the shooting lodge where the final confrontation took place.
Adrian used one of the mechanical excavators to bury Kate. The depth of the grave, the fact she was buried in plastic sheeting and waste products produced by the pheasants all helped to mask the burial site from the dogs.
He used a shovel, John, allegedly.
But then, apparently, some plastic sheeting appeared from nowhere, so anything is possible!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 03:45:04 PM
Prout claimed that his wife had stormed out after a row. In fact he had grabbed her by the throat and strangled her.
He had wrapped her body in a curtain and plastic sheeting and put it in his Range Rover.
But really, you're being somewhat obtuse as usual. Of course he wrapped her in a curtain and plastic sheeting. Just because it doesn't specify in most media reports that"he wrapped her in curtains and plastic sheeting" doesn't mean that he didn't. Obviously he did, and only an idiot would try and make something out of it.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 03:55:19 PM
It's shoddy court reporting by our MSM, or incorrect detail given by the fuzz at the inquest, sumink like that.
Or, maybe the phantom body wrapper.
Being a sceptic, I'm going with the phantom.
Only a complete pedant / idiot would consider the omission of "and plastic sheeting" to the media reports to be indicative of "shoddy" reporting. We are not told what brand of whiskey he consumed after the wicked deed either, nor the name of the pub he visited, nor how many feet down the body was buried - how fkin' shoddy is that?! *&*%£
Most people reading the news don't require every single detail of an event to be reported, most people, clearly not all.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 25, 2015, 04:04:24 PM
Only a complete pedant / idiot would consider the omission of "and plastic sheeting" to the media reports to be indicative of "shoddy" reporting. We are not told what brand of whiskey he consumed after the wicked deed either, nor the name of the pub he visited, nor how many feet down the body was buried - how fkin' shoddy is that?! *&*%£
Most people reading the news don't require every single detail of an event to be reported, most people, clearly not all.
What WS has shown is that the reporting was patchy at best so we have no real way of knowing what exactly happened and in what order.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 04:11:11 PM
What WS has shown is that the reporting was patchy at best so we have no real way of knowing what exactly happened and in what order.
No, we don't. But how would it help if we did?
He couldn't leave the body in The Lodge or The Bungalow Lounge as he had an event the next day. So are we trying to find out if the body was left anywhere for long enough to produce cadaver scent?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 04:14:38 PM
I think it's a sensible assessment on my part Alice. Sometimes common sense is required when considering what is and is not possible. Do you possess any? If you think it is possible that Prout did everything I have highlighted that we know he did that night within an hour then that is based on nothing more than YOUR opinion of what is feasible to achieve within an hour, is it not? So - what makes you more likely to be right than me (apart from your far superior intellect of course)?
I don't understand your point that I have presumed the man didn't know his own farm - did I say that?! No. Of course he knew his farm, but had he already pre-determined where on his farm would be a good spot to hide a body, in your view? Or is there a possibility that (as the reports have already stated) he drove around his land deciding on a suitable spot AFTER killing his wife?
That coupled with a better than average knowledge of earth moving machinery and its capabilities and the ability to a bit of mental arithmetic as a sense check with regard to distances and timescales. If you can put together an activity list with timescales to prove it can't be done I will listen. Otherwise you are guessing.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 25, 2015, 04:44:16 PM
Yes but depends on the type of cleaning and if the surface being cleaned is porous.
Adrian had tried to strangle Kate on a previous occasion so he was predisposed to domestic violence. They had been arguing foir a while over a potential divorce settlement but on the night of the murder out was Kate who pursued him out to the shooting lodge where the final confrontation took place.
Adrian used one of the mechanical excavators to bury Kate. The depth of the grave, the fact she was buried in plastic sheeting and the pheasant waste all helped to mask the burial site from the dogs.
Given we have been assured that eddie can detect smells through several inches of concrete
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm
I am surprised he is foxed by a bit of plastic.
What a let down. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 04:46:00 PM
That coupled with a better than average knowledge of earth moving machinery and its capabilities and the ability to a bit of mental arithmetic as a sense check with regard to distances and timescales. If you can put together an activity list with timescales to prove it can't be done I will listen. Otherwise you are guessing.
Remind me - what is it we're arguing about again? Prout used a shovel btw. Does this affect your numbers?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 04:47:42 PM
What WS has shown is that the reporting was patchy at best so we have no real way of knowing what exactly happened and in what order.
What rubbish. We have a very good idea of what happened and in what order, only those seeking to make a mystery out of the events are pretending they don't.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 04:58:08 PM
What rubbish. We have a very good idea of what happened and in what order, only those seeking to make a mystery out of the events are pretending they don't.
What happened in what order then?
Did he wrap her in both curtain & plastic before putting her in the boot, or did the application of plastic occur later?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:12:40 PM
Did he wrap her in both curtain & plastic before putting her in the boot, or did the application of plastic occur later?
What does it matter for the purposes of this discussion? He did not take the body into the living room of his bungalow at any point. We are told the body was wrapped in a curtain and put in the boot of the car so if he didn't wrap it in plastic at the same time, it will have happened after he'd removed it from the scene of the crime in the car and before he buried her. Simples.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:15:38 PM
From a local newspaper report about the inquest:
Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest that Prout confessed to wrapping the body in a carpet and plastic sheeting and putting it in his Range Rover. http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9687871.print/
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 05:16:23 PM
Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest that Prout confessed to wrapping the body in a carpet and plastic sheeting and putting it in his Range Rover. http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9687871.print/
Carpet!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 25, 2015, 05:21:00 PM
What strikes me as odd about all the reports of the cadaver dog alerting in the living room at the time is that not once, as far as I can see, does it say that Eddie was the same dog as used in PDL. A little detail but rather odd.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:24:30 PM
What strikes me as odd about all the reports of the cadaver dog alerting in the living room at the time is that not once, as far as I can see, does it say that Eddie was the same dog as used in PDL. A little detail but rather odd.
yes it does, one of the reports said it was the same dog as used in the Madeleine McCann investigation, and referred to it as Eddie.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 25, 2015, 05:30:32 PM
yes it does, one of the reports said it was the same dog as used in the Madeleine McCann investigation, and referred to it as Eddie.
Does it really. I watched a video about the case last night where the investigating officer said, and I'm paraphrasing, that when the dog alerted in the living room they knew they were looking for a dead body.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:33:25 PM
Shoddy journalism innit! Back to curtain here 8(0(*
"She had not struggled at any point but when she stopped moving he realised he had in fact killed her." Det Insp Bean said Prout then went inside his house and had a whisky before returning to the shooting lodge and wrapping her body in a curtain and white plastic sheet. Prout then put Mrs Prout in the back of a Land Rover and drove to the pub.
Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/went-pub-killing/story-16001365-detail/story.html#ixzz3SmMqfRZh Follow us: @WesternDaily on Twitter | WesternDaily on Facebook
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:35:48 PM
Does it really. I watched a video about the case last night where the investigating officer said, and I'm paraphrasing, that when the dog alerted in the living room they knew they were looking for a dead body.
Yes, that was made before Prout's confession that he killed her in the Hunting Lodge.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 25, 2015, 05:37:13 PM
Perfect Murder Adrian Prout
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 25, 2015, 05:40:07 PM
Shoddy journalism innit! Back to curtain here 8(0(*
"She had not struggled at any point but when she stopped moving he realised he had in fact killed her." Det Insp Bean said Prout then went inside his house and had a whisky before returning to the shooting lodge and wrapping her body in a curtain and white plastic sheet. Prout then put Mrs Prout in the back of a Land Rover and drove to the pub.
Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/went-pub-killing/story-16001365-detail/story.html#ixzz3SmMqfRZh Follow us: @WesternDaily on Twitter | WesternDaily on Facebook
Now the plastic sheet, is white!
No one else said that, not that the colour makes any difference to anything,
But you see, it's some rubbish journalism isn't it, they only have to listen in court & then report the detail.
How difficult can that be, we've sent monkeys to space ffs!
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:40:38 PM
Yes, that was made before Prout's confession that he killed her in the Hunting Lodge.
Not relevant. What is relevant however is the faith put in the dogs by police officers. Now tell me Eddie's alerts in PDL will have been disregarded by SY.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 05:50:35 PM
No one else said that, not that the colour makes any difference to anything,
But you see, it's some rubbish journalism isn't it, they only have to listen in court & then report the detail.
How difficult can that be, we've sent monkeys to space ffs!
Why don't you start a thread on The Rubbish Press? I will be delighted to comment on that. Provided it's not just about The McCanns. I can think of loads of examples.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 05:52:55 PM
Not relevant. What is relevant however is the faith put in the dogs by police officers. Now tell me Eddie's alerts in PDL will have been disregarded by SY.
I think it's highly relevant that the dog alerted to a place where no body had ever been but if you wish to gloss over that detail, then fine. I think any sentient OP Grange police officer would look at Eddie's alert and failures to alert in this case and draw their own conclusions.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 05:59:50 PM
As this forum's owner has previously made contact with Martin Grime perhaps we can get him on board for this discussion as the case is now closed?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2015, 06:06:44 PM
Not relevant. What is relevant however is the faith put in the dogs by police officers. Now tell me Eddie's alerts in PDL will have been disregarded by SY.
Eddie's alerts will have been disregarded as no evidence was found. SY will have the utmost faith in the dogs to find evidence if any evidence is present. No evidence was found...hence SY say Maddie may still be alive..or sadly she may be dead....what part of that don't you understand
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 25, 2015, 06:10:17 PM
Eddie's alerts will have been disregarded as no evidence was found. SY will have the utmost faith in the dogs to find evidence if any evidence is present. No evidence was found...hence SY say Maddie may still be alive..or sadly she may be dead....what part of that don't you understand
Redwood also said Madeleine may have died in the apartment. What do you think may have lead him to that conclusion ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2015, 06:15:16 PM
Almopst every sceptic believes it is a fact that eddie alerted to a cadaver and has never been wrong...that's naïve and simply not true...my belief is spot on..
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: John on February 25, 2015, 06:26:31 PM
Almopst every sceptic believes it is a fact that eddie alerted to a cadaver and has never been wrong...that's naïve and simply not true...my belief is spot on..
Are you really saying that if Madeleine did die in the apartment Eddie alerting there was mere coincidence ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2015, 06:37:46 PM
Watched that this morning. I believe that is the report that mentions the dog was the same as that used in madeleine McCann case.
investigations at her Redhill Farm home finished a fortnight ago it is understood specialist sniffer dogs used in the search for missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann in Portugal have been used in the investigation and found evidence of Mrs Prout's death.
investigations at her Redhill Farm home finished a fortnight ago it is understood specialist sniffer dogs used in the search for missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann in Portugal have been used in the investigation and found evidence of Mrs Prout's death.
You just beat me too it, DCI. Or is it different...
Biggest search in force history The Citizen 6 February 2010
It was a missing person search which soon turned to a murder inquiry.
Everything Kate possessed was left behind at Redhill Farm. Her keys, car, passport, money, bank cards, handbag, shoes and clothes remained as they were when she was last seen on November 5, 2007.
A total 2,200 councils, police forces, the NHS, and government departments have no record of her existence since that day. She has not touched her £700-a-month teacher's pension.
She kept in regular touch with her family, placed flowers on her parents' graves, and made a note of family and friends' birthdays so that she would not forget to send a card.
But police could not find any evidence of her existence continuing after November 5. Newly released pictures from the police of their home show a farmhouse full of home comforts and a feminine touch; from satin bed covers to a Welsh dresser full of china and pictures of animals on the wall. Kate loved her pet dogs.
On November 14 Gloucestershire Constabulary launched one of its biggest searches for a missing person in its history, calling in specially-trained search officers from other forces to help to comb the 276-acre Redhill Farm and surrounding area.
Bound by the M50 motorway, the A417 and the River Leadon, the search area covered a radius centred on the farm of 1.5km to 2km.
Up to 50 search officers, including some from Gwent and West Mercia forces, went over subdivided sectors of the search area at least twice with broomsticks and specially-designed probes.
A sniffer dog called Eddie, which took part in the hunt for missing Madeleine McCann, could not find any trace of her either. (***Blogger note: Eddie found cadaver scent in Prout home. In November 2011, Adrian Prout confessed to murdering Kate.)
The area was photographed from the air to try and identify recently-disturbed ground, a pile of woodchips and a grain store were searched.
The grain was removed to another site by tractors and trailers and put back once officers were satisfied her body was not in the grain store.
Avon and Somerset police divers searched two ponds at the farm, while Thames Valley police frogmen trawled a reservoir used as a water source for a garden centre, north east of the farm.
Vehicles at the farm, including Kate's Mitsubishi and Mr Prout's Jaguar were forensically examined, as was the farm house.
A forensic biologist was called in to carry out a more detailed examination but no blood was found, DS Christopher Ellis told the trial on January 21. He said there was also no sign of forced entry.
Operation Texas, as it was known, saw a huge desk-based hunt for her too - thousands of organisations were contacted as to Kate Prout's whereabouts and of the 2,000 who replied, none had records of her.
Those included Interpol, the UK Border Agency, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, DVLA, local councils, Land Registry, TV licensing, the NHS, dentists, private healthcare providers, utilities, mobile phone operators, Ebay, social networking sites, charities for the homeless and loyalty card organisations.
She was also marked down as a "watched passenger" by the UK Border Agency.
But all this soon pointed the finger of suspicion at her husband.  http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/biggest-search-in-force-history.html
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2015, 06:46:48 PM
I didn't know there was an Eddie and Keela BlogSpot until now. I will have a read later. Right now I am enjoying the discussion on Adrian Prout, which is on Topic.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 25, 2015, 07:28:07 PM
I didn't know there was an Eddie and Keela BlogSpot until now. I will have a read later. Right now I am enjoying the discussion on Adrian Prout, which is on Topic.
No neither did I Anna but now, thanks to DCI, all the JF readers will know about it.
As will the assorted member's links highlight how Eddie, the dog used in the MM disappearance, alerted to a dead body in the Prout case long before there was tangible evidence of that body.
To paraphrase good old Johnny Rotten ' ever felt you've been had ' @)(++(*
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2015, 07:59:18 PM
No neither did I Anna but now, thanks to DCI, all the JF readers will know about it.
As will the assorted member's links highlight how Eddie, the dog used in the MM disappearance, alerted to a dead body in the Prout case long before there was tangible evidence of that body.
To paraphrase good old Johnny Rotten ' ever felt you've been had ' @)(++(*
If there are enough alerts...eventually one of them will be right...and yes...you have been had
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 25, 2015, 08:20:31 PM
Shoddy journalism innit! Back to curtain here 8(0(*
"She had not struggled at any point but when she stopped moving he realised he had in fact killed her." Det Insp Bean said Prout then went inside his house and had a whisky before returning to the shooting lodge and wrapping her body in a curtain and white plastic sheet. Prout then put Mrs Prout in the back of a Land Rover and drove to the pub.
Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/went-pub-killing/story-16001365-detail/story.html#ixzz3SmMqfRZh Follow us: @WesternDaily on Twitter | WesternDaily on Facebook
"She had not struggled at any point but when she stopped moving he realised he had in fact killed her." Det Insp Bean said Prout then went inside his house...........
Probably sat down on the sofa having a whisky in his death contaminated clothes. Eddie alerted at the sofa.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Anna on February 25, 2015, 08:24:17 PM
Would she have been dead long enough to have given off cadaver scent?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 25, 2015, 08:38:23 PM
Would she have been dead long enough to have given off cadaver scent?
Cadaverine develops quickly after death.
One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.
Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.
Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
Thanks Pat, However it was November in Gloucestershire and outdoors that she died. However even if he didn't go indoors then, he would have had to go home eventually, but probably had a shower in the bootroom, before going into the lounge....We don't really know, such details.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 25, 2015, 08:54:05 PM
He was alone on that farm. Eddie alerted to cadaver. That's his job.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 25, 2015, 11:27:21 PM
One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.
Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
You still don't understand what dogs alert to and why do you? The corpse in the trial above had been dead for three hours. Are you suggesting Prout spent three hours with his wife's corpse before sitting on the sofa and having a glass of whiskey?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 26, 2015, 01:08:13 AM
Prout's clothes were contaminated from handling a dead body. Eddie knows that scent.
The process in which the human body decomposes starts just minutes after death. When the heart stops beating, we experience algor mortis, or the “death chill,” when the temperature of the body falls about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit an hour until it reaches room temperature. Almost immediately, the blood becomes more acidic as carbon dioxide builds up. This causes cells to split open, emptying enzymes into the tissues, which start to digest themselves from within.
In the early stages after death, cellular metabolism slows as the internal systems begin to break down. Lack of oxygen in the tissues triggers an explosive growth of bacteria, which feed on the body’s proteins, carbohydrates and fats, producing gases that cause the body to smell and to swell. In 1885, the German physician Ludwig Brieger identified two nitrogenous compounds – putrescine and cadaverine – as the chemical basis of the smell of putrefaction; there are, in fact, a host of volatile compounds involved, including substances related to butyric acid.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: colombosstogey on February 26, 2015, 06:15:28 AM
lol, the dogs again......
I live not far from the Prouts. The dog alerted but they couldnt find the body. That is why he ended up in prison because they knew he had killed her. He had hidden her in a pipe and buried her, he had the means to do this.
They knew she was dead and she had lain behind the settee.
Why cant believe just accept these dogs are highly trained. Once again they can scent death, but they cant tell you who died.
God its like Groundhog day.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2015, 07:34:29 AM
I live not far from the Prouts. The dog alerted but they couldnt find the body. That is why he ended up in prison because they knew he had killed her. He had hidden her in a pipe and buried her, he had the means to do this.
They knew she was dead and she had lain behind the settee.
Why cant believe just accept these dogs are highly trained. Once again they can scent death, but they cant tell you who died.
God its like Groundhog day.
It is like groundhog day...why can't people accept that the dog's don't prove Maddie died in the apartment...why don't they understand what Grime said...why don't they understand that it is a fact that Maddie may still be alive
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: slartibartfast on February 26, 2015, 07:46:49 AM
It is like groundhog day...why can't people accept that the dog's don't prove Maddie died in the apartment...why don't they understand what Grime said...why don't they understand that it is a fact that Maddie may still be alive
We do accept your propaganda mission to attempt to discredit any information that is remotely incriminating to the McCanns.
We also understand that the dog was trained to alert to dead bodies. The dog alerted and the fact that no physical evidence was found does not negate the alert. No one was known to gave died in the apartment and only one person known to gave gone missing.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2015, 07:51:59 AM
We do accept your propaganda mission to attempt to discredit any information that is remotely incriminating to the McCanns.
We also understand that the dog was trained to alert to dead bodies. The dog alerted and the fact that no physical evidence was found does not negate the alert. No one was known to gave died in the apartment and only one person known to gave gone missing.
The dog is trained to alert to cadaverine...so what do the alerts prove...simple question but one you will avoid
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: stephen25000 on February 26, 2015, 08:11:43 AM
It is like groundhog day...why can't people accept that the dog's don't prove Maddie died in the apartment...why don't they understand what Grime said...why don't they understand that it is a fact that Maddie may still be alive
From that standpoint she maybe in the lawless village 10 miles from PDL, according to the wisdom of Edgar.
So dave, let's have your insight as to where Madeleine is, playing happy families.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2015, 08:14:07 AM
The dog is trained to alert to cadaverine...so what do the alerts prove...simple question but one you will avoid
It is a simple question and one which the supporters have tried to obliterate for years. The dog alerted to cadaverine, the blood dog didn't alert, that implies a body or contamination. For some reason it was decided to go with "no evidential reliability" rather than identify any contamination.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 26, 2015, 08:19:37 AM
Prout's clothes were contaminated from handling a dead body. Eddie knows that scent.
The process in which the human body decomposes starts just minutes after death. When the heart stops beating, we experience algor mortis, or the “death chill,” when the temperature of the body falls about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit an hour until it reaches room temperature. Almost immediately, the blood becomes more acidic as carbon dioxide builds up. This causes cells to split open, emptying enzymes into the tissues, which start to digest themselves from within.
In the early stages after death, cellular metabolism slows as the internal systems begin to break down. Lack of oxygen in the tissues triggers an explosive growth of bacteria, which feed on the body’s proteins, carbohydrates and fats, producing gases that cause the body to smell and to swell. In 1885, the German physician Ludwig Brieger identified two nitrogenous compounds – putrescine and cadaverine – as the chemical basis of the smell of putrefaction; there are, in fact, a host of volatile compounds involved, including substances related to butyric acid.
Think about it. If Prout was himself contaminated with death odour (which I accept he was) then he would have transferred that odour to many places around his bungalow. So why did the dog ONLY alert to a spot between the sofa and the patio doors?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2015, 08:21:31 AM
It is a simple question and one which the supporters have tried to obliterate for years. The dog alerted to cadaverine, the blood dog didn't alert, that implies a body or contamination. For some reason it was decided to go with "no evidential reliability" rather than identify any contamination.
so you say the alert implies cadaverine..that is NOT what Grime says....
Grime says that the dog MAY have alerted to cadaverine...so the alert actually proves nothing
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: stephen25000 on February 26, 2015, 08:25:41 AM
so you say the alert implies cadaverine..that is NOT what Grime says....
Grime says that the dog MAY have alerted to cadaverine...so the alert actually proves nothing
Who was it said..
Quote
The dog is trained to alert to cadaverine
Why you place such emphasis on a legally caveatted statement in an online discussion group is fairly transparent. It's all you have. I assume you don't take aspirin after reading the caveats around that.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2015, 08:29:53 AM
Why you place such emphasis on a legally caveatted statement in an online discussion group is fairly transparent. It's all you have. I assume you don't take aspirin after reading the caveats around that.
I rely on the legally made statement and you make things up as you go along...enough said
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: slartibartfast on February 26, 2015, 08:33:56 AM
oh yes it does...it says the alerts are not necessarily to the body of Maddie...and that is a fact you cannot deny..a fact supported by Grime who stated that the source of the alerts cannot be verified....another fact
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2015, 08:48:06 AM
On Topic, Please.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: stephen25000 on February 26, 2015, 08:51:42 AM
oh yes it does...it says the alerts are not necessarily to the body of Maddie...and that is a fact you cannot deny..a fact supported by Grime who stated that the source of the alerts cannot be verified....another fact
Until a body is found.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: slartibartfast on February 26, 2015, 09:00:37 AM
oh yes it does...it says the alerts are not necessarily to the body of Maddie...and that is a fact you cannot deny..a fact supported by Grime who stated that the source of the alerts cannot be verified....another fact
Who's denying it? The police have no legally acceptable proof of her fate. The alerts are an indication that has not been eliminated.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 26, 2015, 09:02:24 AM
Think about it. If Prout was himself contaminated with death odour (which I accept he was) then he would have transferred that odour to many places around his bungalow. So why did the dog ONLY alert to a spot between the sofa and the patio doors?
We don't know the full facts but you usually sit on a sofa and don't go to bed wearing the same clothes. First wrapped in curtains then it's a carpet and believing the word of a person who lied for years.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Mr Gray on February 26, 2015, 09:15:08 AM
Think about it. If Prout was himself contaminated with death odour (which I accept he was) then he would have transferred that odour to many places around his bungalow. So why did the dog ONLY alert to a spot between the sofa and the patio doors?
I believe cadaver scent pools and where the dog alerts is not necessarily where the source of the scent is was placed.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2015, 01:10:45 PM
I believe cadaver scent pools and where the dog alerts is not necessarily where the source of the scent is was placed.
It might pool but it certainly has to have a point of contact with something for it to exist in the first place. And this is where it would be strongest, surely.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 26, 2015, 01:13:41 PM
I believe cadaver scent pools and where the dog alerts is not necessarily where the source of the scent is was placed.
So - if a man whose clothes and hands are contaminated with cadaver odour walks all around his house contaminating everything he touches with this odour you'd expect it to pool in one spot, like behind the sofa, and leave no residual odour anywhere else is that what you're saying ?
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: faithlilly on February 26, 2015, 10:28:03 PM
So - if a man whose clothes and hands are contaminated with cadaver odour walks all around his house contaminating everything he touches with this odour you'd expect it to pool in one spot, like behind the sofa, and leave no residual odour anywhere else is that what you're saying ?
That's not what I am saying that is what Martin Grime said.
Title: Re: Cadaver Dog Alert Convictions without a body
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 26, 2015, 10:33:09 PM