UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on March 03, 2015, 05:17:04 PM
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The disappearance of Aisling Symes, a two-year-old girl of Irish and New Zealand descent, occurred on 5 October 2009 in New Zealand. Like Madeleine McCann two years earlier, it was initially thought the girl had been abducted but on 12 October 2009 it was confirmed that a body had been located in a storm water drain on a property adjoining the one from where she went missing. The body was confirmed to be Aisling's. Did Madeleine McCann actually wander off and suffer the same fate as Aisling Symes?
Seems some of those very close to the family felt she could very well have wandered off!
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5702.msg224878#msg224878
(http://i.imgur.com/A6pJEKr.jpg?1) (http://i.imgur.com/DwFBNum.jpg?2)
Aisling Symes was just two years old when she disappeared while Madeleine McCann was almost four.
Aisling's disappearance attracted headlines in New Zealand and Ireland, particularly as child abduction was an unusual occurrence in New Zealand. One New Zealand police inspector even went as far as to claim on Morning Ireland that only five children had disappeared in his country in the previous fifty years. The New Zealand Herald said nine children had disappeared without trace in the country in sixty years, at least two cases of which involved more than one child at a time. Forty members of the New Zealand police were quickly put on the case. This had risen to sixty by the end of the first week and was set to rise again before her body was located.
Sophie Tedmanson of The Times newspaper compared Aisling's case to that of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, a famous missing person's case in the United Kingdom. Paul Chapman did the same in The Daily Telegraph. Her parents have said their "thoughts and prayers" are with the Symes family.
A number of suspects and several cases of mistaken identity resulted from the case. However, on Monday 13 October 2009, police confirmed in a press conference that a body found the previous night in a drainpipe in Henderson was that of two-year-old missing toddler Aisling Symes. Police inspector Gary Davey, head of the Aisling inquiry, says the body was removed from the scene at 1am of 13 October. Mr Davey says the body of Aisling probably lay in a drain within metres of scores of police and searchers for days after she disappeared. The drain, that was two metres below the ground, was thoroughly searched by officers with special search techniques used to check the drain. Mr Davey says cameras were used to reach 9–10 metres into the drain, but the search proved fruitless. A decision was then made to dig up part of the drain, a digger was called in and it took five hours until Aisling's body was finally found inside. When police were first called to the Symes house, a police officer searched the pipe three times, Mr Davey said. The manhole cover was ajar about 10 cm and the first police officer looked down the pipe and there was no sign of a body. "He called out and did not hear anything other than running water," Mr Davey said. The officer then searched towards the stream and 15 minutes later returned to the manhole, climbed about two metres down the larger access pipe after moving the manhole cover back. He shone his torch down the smaller 375mm drain at the bottom and could see nothing. He also called her name but there was no response. "He believed he could see five metres up into the drain and five metres down the drain." The drain was searched for a third time later in the night by search and rescue searchers, Mr Davey said.
(http://file2.stuff.co.nz/1255506303/629/2964629.jpg)
During the search Aisling's father Alan Symes also climbed down the pipe and looked for his daughter, said Mr Davey. Mr Davey says it is too early to tell how Aisling got into the drain, but police believe no foul play was involved. "I believe it is more likely or not that she was there from the start and I believe it is misadventure," he says. He says police are still treating the Henderson property as a crime scene, and that they are keeping an "open mind" about the situation.
Waitakere Police later said the results of a post mortem on Aisling Symes were consistent with drowning. Inspector Gary Davey, Waitakere Area Police Commander, said he was unable to comment on the specific details of the autopsy but there was no evidence of injury.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Aisling_Symes
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The disappearance of Aisling Symes, a two-year-old girl of Irish and New Zealand descent, occurred on 5 October 2009 in New Zealand. Like Madeleine McCann, it was initially thought the girl had been abducted but on 12 October 2009 it was confirmed that a body had been located in a storm water drain on a property adjoining the one from where she went missing. The body was confirmed to be Aisling's.
Aisling's disappearance attracted headlines in New Zealand and Ireland, particularly as child abduction was an unusual occurrence in New Zealand. One New Zealand police inspector even went as far as to claim on Morning Ireland that only five children had disappeared in his country in the previous fifty years. The New Zealand Herald said nine children had disappeared without trace in the country in sixty years, at least two cases of which involved more than one child at a time. Forty members of the New Zealand police were quickly put on the case. This had risen to sixty by the end of the first week and was set to rise again before her body was located.
Sophie Tedmanson of The Times newspaper compared Aisling's case to that of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, a famous missing person's case in the United Kingdom. Paul Chapman did the same in The Daily Telegraph. Her parents have said their "thoughts and prayers" are with the Symes family.
neither SY or the PJ seem to have considered this to be an option
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neither SY or the PJ seem to have considered this to be an option
Well, considering they searched the storm water drains after the disappearance, they must have done.
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Well, considering they searched the storm water drains after the disappearance, they must have done.
archiving report...
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
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archiving report...
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
I'm afraid several senior detectives don't agree with you Dave and I tend to agree with them. Maybe the next time SY come back to Luz they will undertake a proper examination of all the underground drains between Ocean Club Block 5 and the beach.
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I'm afraid several senior detectives don't agree with you Dave and I tend to agree with them. Maybe the next time SY come back to Luz they will undertake a proper examination of all the underground drains between Ocean Club Block 5 and the beach.
That wasn't Davel's opinion, that was from the PT AG's Final report. Which senior detectives believe Madeleine may be in a drain somewhere as a result of an accident?
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That wasn't Davel's opinion, that was from the PT AG's Final report. Which senior detectives believe Madeleine may be in a drain somewhere as a result of an accident?
I'm sure you have seen the TV presentation where several senior retired detectives considered this very scenario a distinct possibility. Add to that Mark Williams-Thomas and a few others and it becomes clear that they are all thinking the same thing.
Scotland Yard to search sewer system in Praia da Luz.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10874549/Madeleine-McCann-latest-detectives-to-search-sewer-system-in-Praia-da-Luz.html
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I'm sure you have seen the TV presentation where several senior retired detectives considered this very scenario a distinct possibility. Add to that Mark Williams-Thomas and a few others and it becomes clear that they are all thinking the same thing.
I agree it sounds a reasonable idea...I wonder why the archiving report seems to have dismissed it and SY haven't mentioned it.....depends on how difficult it would be for a 3 yr old to open the doors
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I agree it sounds a reasonable idea...I wonder why the archiving report seems to have dismissed it and SY haven't mentioned it.....depends on how difficult it would be for a 3 yr old to open the doors
Sorry Dave, I misread your earlier posting. If that is what is contained in the Archive Report I fear they have been sorely mislead.
Thanks for pointing that out Alfred.
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I agree it sounds a reasonable idea...I wonder why the archiving report seems to have dismissed it and SY haven't mentioned it.....depends on how difficult it would be for a 3 yr old to open the doors
....& the window & shutter.
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I'm sure you have seen the TV presentation where several senior retired detectives considered this very scenario a distinct possibility. Add to that Mark Williams-Thomas and a few others and it becomes clear that they are all thinking the same thing.
Scotland Yard to search sewer system in Praia da Luz.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10874549/Madeleine-McCann-latest-detectives-to-search-sewer-system-in-Praia-da-Luz.html
And the Met recently made a number of people arguidos because they believed Madeleine fell down a drain...? &%+((£
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Sorry Dave, I misread your earlier posting. If that is what is contained in the Archive Report I fear they have been sorely mislead.
Thanks for pointing that out Alfred.
Sorely mislead by whom? The PJ, upon whose investigation the archiving report is based?
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No way out!
Fox News 1st July 2007.
Gerry McCann: I'd just like to reiterate that this isn't a four-year-old girl, errm... walking off somewhere during the day or in the evening, you know, she was tucked up in bed, errm... and there's no way she... she could have got out on her own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6Rw4S5o2KPY#t=162
McCann's Irish RTE Late Late Show Interview May 13 2011
Interviewer:
Why did you, Kate, why did you think immediately that she was abducted & hadn’t wandered out of the apartment or gone somewhere, why was that such a gut reaction for you, do you think?
Kate:
Well, there’s absolutely no way a 3 year old could open those shutters & the window.
Interviewer:
Simple as that.
Kate:
Simple as that, y’know & people, y’know obviously, people saying are you sure she didn’t wander off?,
I’m saying, well, the shutter was up & the window was open, I’m not lying about that,
& even if they want to say theoretically, oh, she wandered out the back of the apartment,
then you’re basically saying a 3 year old has opened the long curtains, closed them behind her, opened the patio doors, closed them behind her, *opened the gate at the top of the stairs, closed that behind her......
Gerry:
*With the child lock.
Kate: .... & done the same at the bottom,y’know it’s just not, it’s not possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg#t=1370
David Payne Rogatory:
'as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate,
I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that apartment. There's the gate which is immediately bring, you know brings you on to the err the road and then there was another child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities, she'd either been taken or she'd wandered off, no child is gonna wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I knew, although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that she'd been abducted.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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The most remarkable backtrack ever for me was when Gerry McCann changed his statement as to how he gained access to the apartment on the night Maddie disappeared. Initially he told the PJ investigators that he walked the long way round and entered via the car park and the front door of the appartment. This later changed to he used the steps up from the street to the back patio and entered via the patio doors.
I can understand a minor lapse of memory but this was a substantial failure to remember important details. When you look at this in the context of Maddie's unexplained disappearance from the apartment then several scenarios become very apparent.
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It depends on how you interpret the Aisling Symes case.
I can explain how a near 4 year old got out of apartment 5A.
I cannot explain how a 2 year old gets down past a manhole cover that is 10cm ajar (2.5 inches) and it is natural causes.
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It depends on how you interpret the Aisling Symes case.
I can explain how a near 4 year old got out of apartment 5A.
I cannot explain how a 2 year old gets down past a manhole cover that is 10cm ajar (2.5 inches) and it is natural causes.
Absolutely, but in reality they can be explained if you start digging deep enough. Aisling went down a manhole so the real question should be, who opened it and left it in such a dangerous state that a small child could slide into it? As has been seen in the Symes case, cameras and all sorts of fancy technical equipment are not always successful. There is no substitute for a digger and a shovel.
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The most remarkable backtrack ever for me was when Gerry McCann changed his statement as to how he gained access to the apartment on the night Maddie disappeared. Initially he told the PJ investigators that he walked the long way round and entered via the car park and the front door of the appartment. This later changed to he used the steps up from the street to the back patio and entered via the patio doors.
I can understand a minor lapse of memory but this was a substantial failure to remember important details. When you look at this in the context of Maddie's unexplained disappearance from the apartment then several scenarios become very apparent.
we have two words for that and they are bum steer
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And the Met recently made a number of people arguidos because they believed Madeleine fell down a drain...? &%+((£
Keeps the public happy don't it?
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It depends on how you interpret the Aisling Symes case.
I can explain how a near 4 year old got out of apartment 5A.
I cannot explain how a 2 year old gets down past a manhole cover that is 10cm ajar (2.5 inches) and it is natural causes.
Open the window herself did she?
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Keeps the public happy don't it?
Another two words would be damp squid. As usual it came to nothing but then again that isn't a surprise to those of us who have followed the case.
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Children who fall into drains and come to harm are usually eventually found as happened in Aisling's case.
The majority of children who fall into storm drains or sewers are recovered relatively unharmed ... unless the fall happens at a time when there is a torrent of water which washes the child away.
Even when there is water in the drain children have been known to survive long enough to be rescued ... and those who have been washed away are usually discovered at the drain outlet.
In Praia da Luz the drain outlets appear to be on the beach.
We are told there was a thorough search carried out for Madeleine McCann; if that is so, the drains will have been an obvious place to look either for a child who had had an accidental fall or for a child whose body had been deposited therein.
I do not think that Aisling and Madeleine's cases are compatible ... I do not think Madeleine was or is in a drain in PDL.
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Open the window herself did she?
As you know very well WS, the only discernable prints on the window came from Kate McCann.
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As you know very well WS, the only discernable prints on the window came from Kate McCann.
Indeed, & it was only open on her say so.
Maddie couldn't have got out on her own, unless Kate & Gerry lied.
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Children who fall into drains and come to harm are usually eventually found as happened in Aisling's case.
Unless they are recovered you cannot say where they are which sort of destroys your claim.
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We are told there was a thorough search carried out for Madeleine McCann; if that is so, the drains will have been an obvious place to look either for a child who had had an accidental fall or for a child whose body had been deposited therein.
I do not think that Aisling and Madeleine's cases are compatible ... I do not think Madeleine was or is in a drain in PDL.
Since they were looking for a paedophile abductor whom the McCanns claimed was part of some gang the resources were wrongly directed imo. A cursory check of drains as complicated as exist in Luz just wasn't enough.
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Unless they are recovered you cannot say where they are which sort of destroys your claim.
Thorough searching of a place already searched found Aisling. You saying the same thoroughness was not employed in the search for Madeleine McCann?
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Indeed, & it was only open on her say so.
Maddie couldn't have got out on her own, unless Kate & Gerry lied.
Maybe the front door wasn't as secure as some would like us to believe.
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Thorough searching of a place already searched found Aisling. You saying the same thoroughness was not employed in the search for Madeleine McCann?
It took three searches to find Aisling and she was a mere three metres from the manhole. What chance do you think any searcher would have in Luz??
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The most remarkable backtrack ever for me was when Gerry McCann changed his statement as to how he gained access to the apartment on the night Maddie disappeared. Initially he told the PJ investigators that he walked the long way round and entered via the car park and the front door of the appartment. This later changed to he used the steps up from the street to the back patio and entered via the patio doors.
I can understand a minor lapse of memory but this was a substantial failure to remember important details. When you look at this in the context of Maddie's unexplained disappearance from the apartment then several scenarios become very apparent.
Someone will probably mention translation errors or sumink, but that anomaly is most definitely there....
'The contradictions in Gerald McCann's statement might lead us to suspect a homicide. This is a lead that should be investigated.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250084/How-letter-UK-police-turned-spotlight-Kate-Gerry-McCann.html
'There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started.' (Gonçalo Amaral)
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Did the McCanns lawyers dispute this at the trial?
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It took three searches to find Aisling and she was a mere three metres from the manhole. What chance do you think any searcher would have in Luz??
from what ive read the drains in the town are mega complicated and a nightmare to inspect properly
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The most remarkable backtrack ever for me was when Gerry McCann changed his statement as to how he gained access to the apartment on the night Maddie disappeared. Initially he told the PJ investigators that he walked the long way round and entered via the car park and the front door of the appartment. This later changed to he used the steps up from the street to the back patio and entered via the patio doors.
I can understand a minor lapse of memory but this was a substantial failure to remember important details. When you look at this in the context of Maddie's unexplained disappearance from the apartment then several scenarios become very apparent.
We've had this conversation before on another thread.
What I find most likely is that the cop asked Gerry to describe the flat (via the interpreter) and scribbled a few notes down, including the fact that one door required a key to enter. That doesn't appear in the report, but if he didn't, he should have done. Enter confusion as to which door is the back one versus the front one, and the cop assumes that it's the one that needed a key, which is what he types up.
Gerry's preoccupation was to get the ball rolling as fast as possible to find her, not to check if every detail had been accurately recorded.
As far as anyone knows, he didn't have a translated version to read through. It's not even clear if the "interpreter" read out the entire Portuguese statement to him, as opposed to reflecting back to him what the cop summarised what he thought he'd understood as he went along.
E.g.,
"So at around 9 pm, you went into the apartment via the (confusion over which side is back / front) door and went to check on your children?"
"Yes."
Cop checks his scribbled notes, mistakenly adds the detail of the key, and job done.
If the statement had been verbatim, it would be clear if there had been confusion about which door was the back or front, or not, and - if so - who got confused and how.
Personally, I don't think any of them were very awake that morning. The statement says that Gerry went to the "club" and entered the "room" via the door with the key. Which "club"? Which "room"? Gerry wouldn't have said that he went to the "club", as opposed to apartment / flat, surely?
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from what ive read the drains in the town are mega complicated and a nightmare to inspect properly
How does one gain access via the drain covers?
It is my understanding a special tool is required to unlock them.
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Someone will probably mention translation errors or sumink, but that anomaly is most definitely there....
'The contradictions in Gerald McCann's statement might lead us to suspect a homicide. This is a lead that should be investigated.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250084/How-letter-UK-police-turned-spotlight-Kate-Gerry-McCann.html
'There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started.' (Gonçalo Amaral)
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Did the McCanns lawyers dispute this at the trial?
Would Rainbow have been aware that Gerry's statement wasn't verbatim and that Gerry wouldn't have been able to read through a written statement in English? Or did some cop just tell him that there was a discrepancy between the two statements?
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How does one gain access via the drain covers?
It is my understanding a special tool is required to unlock them.
if I recall there were works going on near block 5 at the time she disappeared.
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We've had this conversation before on another thread.
What I find most likely is that the cop asked Gerry to describe the flat (via the interpreter) and scribbled a few notes down, including the fact that one door required a key to enter. That doesn't appear in the report, but if he didn't, he should have done. Enter confusion as to which door is the back one versus the front one, and the cop assumes that it's the one that needed a key, which is what he types up.
Gerry's preoccupation was to get the ball rolling as fast as possible to find her, not to check if every detail had been accurately recorded.
As far as anyone knows, he didn't have a translated version to read through. It's not even clear if the "interpreter" read out the entire Portuguese statement to him, as opposed to reflecting back to him what the cop summarised what he thought he'd understood as he went along.
E.g.,
"So at around 9 pm, you went into the apartment via the (confusion over which side is back / front) door and went to check on your children?"
"Yes."
Cop checks his scribbled notes, mistakenly adds the detail of the key, and job done.
If the statement had been verbatim, it would be clear if there had been confusion about which door was the back or front, or not, and - if so - who got confused and how.
Personally, I don't think any of them were very awake that morning. The statement says that Gerry went to the "club" and entered the "room" via the door with the key. Which "club"? Which "room"? Gerry wouldn't have said that he went to the "club", as opposed to apartment / flat, surely?
You don't need to make further excuses Carana, Gerry admitted his mistake in the documentary which was filmed in the apartment. The fact that he couldn't even remember which door he used that night is highly significant imo.
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Numerous complaints had been made about the drainage system.
There are questions - from the mayor who says he was not told about the litany of compaints about the very drain she was found in...
http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/heartbreaking-loss-aisling-symes-3070813?page=7&pagesize=5
Waitakere City Council in the gun
October 14th, 2009 at 9:42 am by David Farrar
Stuff reports:
As the family of Aisling Symes prepare for her funeral, Waitakere City Council could face prosecution over her death. …
Neighbours of the home from which Aisling wandered away said yesterday that they had repeatedly warned the council about problems with the drain and a manhole cover that Aisling probably crawled through, saying it blew off under the increased water pressure when it rained.
Waitakere Mayor Bob Harvey began an inquiry yesterday into those allegations, while a spokesman confirmed that the council had received four complaints about the manhole cover since 2004, the latest on September 11 and September 25.
It is difficult to explain why nothing was done, despite four formal complaints. This is bread and butter stuff for Councils.
Tim Rainey, a lawyer who specialises in construction negligence, said it was “very much a live possibility” that the council could be prosecuted under the Health and Safety in Employment Act.
“If they were aware of a risk which could harm somebody then they would have been obliged to take all practicable steps to ensure that risk was either eliminated or minimised.”
The only problem with a prosecution is that innocent ratepayers will have to pay any fine, not those responsible.
Council staff visited the Longburn Rd property and inspected the drain on September 16 – five days after the first complaint.
They found it was blocked by tree roots, and were discussing with the property owner who would pay to clear the blockage.
“We were in the process of deciding how best to remove those when the tragedy occurred,” council spokesman Wally Thomas said.
“There was a matter of days between us receiving the last complaint and acting on it, and before we could clear the problem this tragedy occurred.”
However the complaints go back to before September the 11th it seems. What is the time gap between the first complaint, not the last complaint?
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/10/waitakere_city_council_in_the_gun.html
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if I recall there were works going on near block 5 at the time she disappeared.
It is my understanding that the roadworks were checked by the PJ ... unless you know different.
I doubt very much if the drains and sewers were left uncovered as part of this ... I am sure Portugal is as concerned about health and safety as the rest of Europe in such matters ... although I believe there is one witness statement to the effect that a drain cover was partly off on the third.
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if I recall there were works going on near block 5 at the time she disappeared.
Yes. Rex Morgan said that he'd seen an open manhole near 5A that night. What's not clear is what kind of manhole it was - if it was just one to lay cables, then a child couldn't have disappeared; if it was a storm drain, then it might be feasible.
I would further like to say that in connection with the disappearance of Madeleine, I saw a manhole with a cover removed.
This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road.
The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in.
I returned the next day and noticed that the cover had been replaced. I am concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/REX-MORGAN.htm
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Would Rainbow have been aware that Gerry's statement wasn't verbatim and that Gerry wouldn't have been able to read through a written statement in English? Or did some cop just tell him that there was a discrepancy between the two statements?
So, Amarals claim about the content of the control risks report wasn't disputed in court then.
That's because it's true.
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You don't need to make further excuses Carana, Gerry admitted his mistake in the documentary which was filmed in the apartment. The fact that he couldn't even remember which door he used that night is highly significant imo.
I have no reason to make excuses. It's just that I've made a report to the police before in a country in which I didn't understand the language and the officer didn't understand mine. I grabbed someone to help translate. In my case, there were numerous inaccurate details, but the two important ones were there and that was all I really needed. My situation was by no means as dramatic, but it was urgent and I had no time (nor real necessity) to ask a grumpy officer to retype it all.
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I have no reason to make excuses. It's just that I've made a report to the police before in a country in which I didn't understand the language and the officer didn't understand mine. I grabbed someone to help translate. In my case, there were numerous inaccurate details, but the two important ones were there and that was all I really needed. My situation was by no means as dramatic, but it was urgent and I had no time (nor real necessity) to ask a grumpy officer to retype it all.
Well, I made a report to the police in a foreign country before, & there were no problems at all.
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I have no reason to make excuses. It's just that I've made a report to the police before in a country in which I didn't understand the language and the officer didn't understand mine. I grabbed someone to help translate. In my case, there were numerous inaccurate details, but the two important ones were there and that was all I really needed. My situation was by no means as dramatic, but it was urgent and I had no time (nor real necessity) to ask a grumpy officer to retype it all.
To clarify, it was not a translation error or a misunderstanding between the witness and the police. Mr McCann admitted to giving the wrong information in his first statement.
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So, Amarals claim about the content of the control risks report wasn't disputed in court then.
That's because it's true.
Was the Control Risks report ever raised in court by Amaral's team?
Recopying your cite:
'There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started.' (Gonçalo Amaral)
That sounds like Amaral's selective understanding again.
If there had been a misunderstanding over which door was meant and Gerry had explained it to Control Risks, saying that it was clearly a mistake as the key was left in the kitchen, so how could have used it to enter, and why would he gone the long way around when the verandah had been left open for checks, and he needed a pee, anyway?
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Well, I made a report to the police in a foreign country before, & there were no problems at all.
Lucky you. ;)
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To clarify, it was not a translation error or a misunderstanding between the witness and the police. Mr McCann admitted to giving the wrong information in his first statement.
Is there a cite somewhere to see what he actually said?
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Is there a cite somewhere to see what he actually said?
Do you mean on the first occasion, the second, in the documentary or in subsequent interviews?
Could we continue this particular theme in the appropriate thread.
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Do you mean on the first occasion, the second, in the documentary or in subsequent interviews?
Could we continue this particular theme in the appropriate thread.
Sure. Back to topic:
What kind of hole was it that Rex Morgan noticed had a missing cover that evening? A cable pit or a storm drain? 5A was on a hill, so presumably some storm drains would have been in the vicinity to avoid rainwater gushing down it? If so, where were they and were they subject to any works at that time or not?
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Sure. Back to topic:
What kind of hole was it that Rex Morgan noticed had a missing cover that evening? A cable pit or a storm drain? 5A was on a hill, so presumably some storm drains would have been in the vicinity to avoid rainwater gushing down it? If so, where were they and were they subject to any works at that time or not?
The proximity to the McCann apartment makes it significant. Is there any information that Rex Morgan's information was carried through? I think it must have been, or surely it is one of the first places the new PJ and SY investigations would have checked out.
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The proximity to the McCann apartment makes it significant. Is there any information that Rex Morgan's information was carried through? I think it must have been, or surely it is one of the first places the new PJ and SY investigations would have checked out.
I'm not sure how, so many years later.
Nor even by mid August (if the dating system is consistent with the US one, which it sometimes is).
External Inquiry Report
Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L
Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva
Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.
Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).
Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).
Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.
With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.
But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation†process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.
We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.
They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.
Signed
Page 3985 Photos Area 1:
Page 3986 Photos Area 2:
Page 3987 Map showing Areas 1 and 2 in relation to the Ocean Club:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm
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I'm not sure how, so many years later.
Nor even by mid August (if the dating system is consistent with the US one, which it sometimes is).
External Inquiry Report
Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L
Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva
Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.
Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).
Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).
Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.
With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.
But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation†process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.
We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.
They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.
Signed
Page 3985 Photos Area 1:
Page 3986 Photos Area 2:
Page 3987 Map showing Areas 1 and 2 in relation to the Ocean Club:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm
Does the date signify that this diligence was carried out as part of the Rebelo investigation?
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I'm not sure how, so many years later.
Nor even by mid August (if the dating system is consistent with the US one, which it sometimes is).
External Inquiry Report
Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L
Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva
Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.
Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).
Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).
Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.
With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.
But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation†process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.
We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.
They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.
Signed
Page 3985 Photos Area 1:
Page 3986 Photos Area 2:
Page 3987 Map showing Areas 1 and 2 in relation to the Ocean Club:[/b]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm
Was the junction identified in Rex Morgan's statement the one at the bottom right within the OC circle?
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Personally, I find it unlikely that she did wander out of her own accord for numerous reasons that I've mentioned on other threads.
For the sake of argument, it may be a remote possibility. Another possibility is that she was dumped in one by whoever took her.
Picking up on this:
We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.
The pics of red tubes (when were these taken?) don't correspond to manhole covers.
Did the works only concern cable pits?
Would any labourer (possibly casual) admit to forgetting to replace a storm drain cover, if ever that is what Rex Morgan noticed?
If what Morgan had seen was indeed a storm drain, where would the rainwater flow have gone? To the sea? If the engineer was only asked in mid-August, did anyone check - in early May - where any such water would have ended up? Were any police divers tasked to check?
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The manholes near block 5 are regularly disinfected against cockroaches (told by the disinfection men).
Please see the pics at Appendix L at bottom of http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html)
Could anyone of you put the pics here, please?
(http://i.imgur.com/AQiZmgi.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/n2jyw2c.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/gx7HhB4.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/0m2H771.jpg?1)
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Does the date signify that this diligence was carried out as part of the Rebelo investigation?
There has been confusion as to the dating system used when in numerical form.
In any event, it was either 11 August, or 8 November, i.e. not early May.
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Keeps the public happy don't it?
Would you care to expand on that statement?
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I don't think Madeleine would have met the same fate as Aisling Symes.
Firstly I agree with what Kate McCann said, that no three year old would bother shutting gates after them, especially one situated at the top of steps.
Secondly, I tend to agree with one of the specialists who said if Madeleine had wandered out she would have been drawn towards the lights and sounds of the Ocean Club.
Lastly and this is just my opinion, I would think a child of almost four would have put shoes on before venturing outside.
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The manholes near block 5 are regularly disinfected against cockroaches (told by the disinfection men).
Please see the pics at Appendix L at bottom of http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html)
Could anyone of you put the pics here, please?
(http://i.imgur.com/AQiZmgi.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/n2jyw2c.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/gx7HhB4.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/0m2H771.jpg?1)
Thank you for that information, Heri.
The photographs you have put up in your blog show quite clearly that it would be impossible for a young child's body to pass through the diameter of the pipes. Therefore if they are regularly opened to be disinfected against cockroaches I think it would be safe to assume that Madeleine didn't disappear into one either by accident or design, or her remains would have been discovered before now.
THE MANHOLES
I saw manholes in all Praia da Luz streets, and even in the small isolated hill to the West. I took photos of many of them, including the inside of two, where you can see that the connecting pipes are too small in diameter for a toddler body. And it is not impossible but not easy to open it without proper tools, as the ones used by the maintenance personnel. Were all these manholes properly searched?
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
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Thanks for supplying that link Heriberto and to Anna for putting the photos up, I have resized them.
There would appear to be lots of these sewer related manholes around but there must also be storm drains which are much larger but they are harder to trace from ground level.
The drains aside, there were reports of open trench roadworks going on in the area at the time of Madeleine's disappearance, I wonder if any pictures were ever captured of them?
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Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread 8(>((
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later *&*%£
Jeez.
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This post was by pegasus, but shows open trenches on 3rd May, I'm sure he won't mind me reposting them
I have added the photos
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4014.msg151592#msg151592
Map of two open trench locations closer to the apartment than the church
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3987.jpg)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3987.jpg
Photos of filled-in trench (area 1)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3985.jpg)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3985.jpg
Photos of filled-in trench (area 2)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3986.jpg)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3986.jpg
These two trenches were open on evening 3rd May.
For water, phone, and electric, they were 1.2m deep x 0.9m wide.
In the photos pieces of brown/red pipe have been placed to mark the linear extent of each trench.
The utility workers on 4th knew of the disappearance and checked the trenches before continuing.
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Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread 8(>((
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later *&*%£
Jeez.
Is there anything you don't know everything about?
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Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread 8(>((
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later *&*%£
Jeez.
Very informative ... so what is your opinion on the likelihood that Madeleine could have fallen into one ... perhaps the one mentioned in Carana's post about Rex Morgan's statement of seeing an uncovered drain in the vicinity of 5A.
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I don't see how a child could have disappeared in the type shown in Heri's photo.
Little Mari Luz was thrown into one, however, presumably of a different type.
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I don't see how a child could have disappeared in the type shown in Heri's photo.
Little Mari Luz was thrown into one, however, presumably of a different type.
They must have some sort of sewer drains. The police in June last year were checking out the sewers with optic fibre cameras. Where were they?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-search-police-look-3646174
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Is there anything you don't know everything about?
Only the stuff I know nothing about 8(>((
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Very informative ... so what is your opinion on the likelihood that Madeleine could have fallen into one ... perhaps the one mentioned in Carana's post about Rex Morgan's statement of seeing an uncovered drain in the vicinity of 5A.
God knows.
If some prat left a cover off the MH with no barricades and hazard tapes then any one could fall in it.
If she fell in she would possibly stay in the MH until found. The drain would need to be a minimum 450 diameter for her to crawl down or be washed down in a storm.
You should be able to work out a plan from that.
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Id she had fallen down a drain nearby...the cover would be off and she would have been found....surely
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Id she had fallen down a drain nearby...the cover would be off and she would have been found....surely
Not if it was one of those, which I think drain straight down to a stream over and under ground, which carries it to the tunnels that come out by the sea......... I hope I got that right.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1868_small.jpg)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm
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Not if it was one of those, which I think drain straight down to a stream over and under ground, which carries it to the tunnels that come out by the sea......... I hope I got that right.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1868_small.jpg)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm
Surely these would have been searched in the first days
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Surely these would have been searched in the first days
Well................................
And if it does empty straight into a stream, it would be empty.
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Open trenches on 3 may, as photos.... after they had been filled. I apologise, if this has already been posted.
CONSTRUCTION WORKER 31 MAY 07
External Inquiry Report
Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L
Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva
Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.
Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).
Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).
Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.
With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.
But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation†process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.
We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were
employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.
They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.
Signed
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm
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Absolutely, but in reality they can be explained if you start digging deep enough. Aisling went down a manhole so the real question should be, who opened it and left it in such a dangerous state that a small child could slide into it? As has been seen in the Symes case, cameras and all sorts of fancy technical equipment are not always successful. There is no substitute for a digger and a shovel.
I'm 4 pages behind, so this may have been covered.
The reason I am dubious of natural causes is that if it was, then either a two-year old pulled most of the cover shut after she went in, or another party must have nearly replaced it later.
I don't know how the police were so insistent on the pipe, unless someone had provided evidence along the lines of - well I found this cover open and it was dangerous so I (part) replaced it.
Kindly come out to Luz and suggest to the populace that the whole drainage laid in 2007 needs to be dug up again. Or, given that the startled robber theory is bandied about, and any manhole would do, the entire town drains need to come up. Popular here with the public? I think not. Popular with the UK taxpayer? I think not.
Personally, I wish that instead of trying to dig up the mound they had investigated every manhole/drain in Luz. At least then some progress would have been made.
A final note on this. I can see nothing to suggest that SY in 2014 deployed the dogs near the manholes. I assume (ouch) this means that they think the dogs are of no use in this respect.
Barring dogs, and preferring not to take up the digger option, I cannot see that is hard to put a ROV with a camera through more or less the whole system.
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Open the window herself did she?
She had 3 options, so already I cannot say what she actually did do, and what she did not.
She was nearly 4, and according to UK figures, unlikely to be less than a metre tall or to weigh less than 12kg. Both of these are lower figures for 'runts'. (Full details at ShiningInLuz.) She therefore had the physical capability to open the shutter and the window and to climb through.
Option 2 - she went out via the front door.
Option 3 - she went out via the patio doors.
The reason for an open window in options 2 and 3 have nothing to do with Aisling Symes case, so if you wish to discuss these further, please point me at an appropriate thread.
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How does one gain access via the drain covers?
It is my understanding a special tool is required to unlock them.
The system next to my house in Luz for both sewage and rainwater drains is the same.
Each end of one diameter on a cover has a recessed lug. Stick a lever in either end (or both) and the cover lifts.
Would not like to do it with my fingers, but something simple like a knife or a screwdriver is all that is required.
I'm around 10-15 mins from 5A, so it might be different there, though I would expect the same.
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The system next to my house in Luz for both sewage and rainwater drains is the same.
Each end of one diameter on a cover has a recessed lug. Stick a lever in either end (or both) and the cover lifts.
Would not like to do it with my fingers, but something simple like a knife or a screwdriver is all that is required.
I'm around 10-15 mins from 5A, so it might be different there, though I would expect the same.
It is helpful that you live in the area and can help us out with such things.
It sounds as if the drain covers are similar to our own that can be lifted with several types of tools. I suppose the long handled, tool used by the drain disinfecting men are for ease of use.
Does your system drain directly into the sea via a canal/tunnel or pipes underground and how wide are the pipes.
Sorry for bombarding you with questions, Shininginluz, but I am curious about the plumbing systems.
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I'm 4 pages behind, so this may have been covered.
The reason I am dubious of natural causes is that if it was, then either a two-year old pulled most of the cover shut after she went in, or another party must have nearly replaced it later.
I don't know how the police were so insistent on the pipe, unless someone had provided evidence along the lines of - well I found this cover open and it was dangerous so I (part) replaced it.
Kindly come out to Luz and suggest to the populace that the whole drainage laid in 2007 needs to be dug up again. Or, given that the startled robber theory is bandied about, and any manhole would do, the entire town drains need to come up. Popular here with the public? I think not. Popular with the UK taxpayer? I think not.
Personally, I wish that instead of trying to dig up the mound they had investigated every manhole/drain in Luz. At least then some progress would have been made.
A final note on this. I can see nothing to suggest that SY in 2014 deployed the dogs near the manholes. I assume (ouch) this means that they think the dogs are of no use in this respect.
Barring dogs, and preferring not to take up the digger option, I cannot see that is hard to put a ROV with a camera through more or less the whole system.
CCTV surveying of sewer systems has been common practice in UK for 20 years plus. I cannot imagine it is that different through out Europe.
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Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread 8(>((
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later *&*%£
Jeez.
Any chance of this in everyday English? What do you mean by "foul"? Sewage?
There must still be some articles online concerning the MariLuz case, RIP, poor tot.
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It is helpful that you live in the area and can help us out with such things.
It sounds as if the drain covers are similar to our own that can be lifted with several types of tools. I suppose the long handled, tool used by the drain disinfecting men are for ease of use.
Does your system drain directly into the sea via a canal/tunnel or pipes underground and how wide are the pipes.
Sorry for bombarding you with questions, Shininginluz, but I am curious about the plumbing systems.
After reading this thread, I have checked out the drains in Luz and found the following.
I found 4 drain types in Luz, all marked CML, which I assume means Camara Municipal de Lagos. (Lagos council).
Heriberto posted drain photos marked CRTA, which is something to do with council of technical administration. I did not see anything marked CRTA when I looked, only CML. This does not mean that Heriberto is wrong - it simply means I did not see it. Since Heriberto says the photos are from Luz, I now have to assume up to 5 types in Luz. (Actually only four types, just with 5 stickers on.)
1 Open up because of a couple of lugs on either side of the cover. Easy.
2 Heriberto type with lugs somewhat nearer the centre. 5A has both type 1 and type 2 around and both are easy to open up without a sophisticated tool.
3 There's a hinge on one side, and some lugs on the other side. Still easy to open. There are some of those near to 5A.
4 Hinge on one side and rather a difficult mechanism on the other side. I'm sure I could get this open, but now we are not talking easy. This type is deployed throughout the areas of Luz that were upgraded in 2007.
Hinges? I believe that Luz was suffering from manhole-cover-for-scrap problem. Perhaps the hinge and lock was a response.
Changing topics. Does the system drain into the sea?
Rain water does, sewage goes nowhere near the sea.
We have a blue flag beach that has truly pristine water.
Let's say 100% is where you get the nasty readings and you STILL get blue flag. The upper max that scrapes through.
Luz hits about 1%. It laughs at supposed blue-flag beaches. We have cleaner than clean.
"No industrial, waste-water or sewage-related discharges should affect the beach area."
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After reading this thread, I have checked out the drains in Luz and found the following.
I found 4 drain types in Luz, all marked CML, which I assume means Camara Municipal de Lagos. (Lagos council).
Heriberto posted drain photos marked CRTA, which is something to do with council of technical administration. I did not see anything marked CRTA when I looked, only CML. This does not mean that Heriberto is wrong - it simply means I did not see it. Since Heriberto says the photos are from Luz, I now have to assume up to 5 types in Luz. (Actually only four types, just with 5 stickers on.)
1 Open up because of a couple of lugs on either side of the cover. Easy.
2 Heriberto type with lugs somewhat nearer the centre. 5A has both type 1 and type 2 around and both are easy to open up without a sophisticated tool.
3 There's a hinge on one side, and some lugs on the other side. Still easy to open. There are some of those near to 5A.
4 Hinge on one side and rather a difficult mechanism on the other side. I'm sure I could get this open, but now we are not talking easy. This type is deployed throughout the areas of Luz that were upgraded in 2007.
Hinges? I believe that Luz was suffering from manhole-cover-for-scrap problem. Perhaps the hinge and lock was a response.
Changing topics. Does the system drain into the sea?
Rain water does, sewage goes nowhere near the sea.
We have a blue flag beach that has truly pristine water.
Let's say 100% is where you get the nasty readings and you STILL get blue flag. The upper max that scrapes through.
Luz hits about 1%. It laughs at supposed blue-flag beaches. We have cleaner than clean.
"No industrial, waste-water or sewage-related discharges should affect the beach area."
Thank you so very much, for that information, it's very kind of you, to check it out.
they have added hinges, which is a very good idea.
So it is only rain water that would go from these drains and run down that stream like canal and into the sea. I put a photo of a grated hole and near the Paraiso that runs down this gulley to the sea. It would have a large outlet pipe I should think? or go straight into the gulley/stream?
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1868.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1867ya.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1866j_small.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1865_small.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1864_small.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1863.jpg)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm
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After reading this thread, I have checked out the drains in Luz and found the following.
I found 4 drain types in Luz, all marked CML, which I assume means Camara Municipal de Lagos. (Lagos council).
Heriberto posted drain photos marked CRTA, which is something to do with council of technical administration. I did not see anything marked CRTA when I looked, only CML. This does not mean that Heriberto is wrong - it simply means I did not see it. Since Heriberto says the photos are from Luz, I now have to assume up to 5 types in Luz. (Actually only four types, just with 5 stickers on.)
1 Open up because of a couple of lugs on either side of the cover. Easy.
2 Heriberto type with lugs somewhat nearer the centre. 5A has both type 1 and type 2 around and both are easy to open up without a sophisticated tool.
3 There's a hinge on one side, and some lugs on the other side. Still easy to open. There are some of those near to 5A.
4 Hinge on one side and rather a difficult mechanism on the other side. I'm sure I could get this open, but now we are not talking easy. This type is deployed throughout the areas of Luz that were upgraded in 2007.
Hinges? I believe that Luz was suffering from manhole-cover-for-scrap problem. Perhaps the hinge and lock was a response.
Changing topics. Does the system drain into the sea?
Rain water does, sewage goes nowhere near the sea.
We have a blue flag beach that has truly pristine water.
Let's say 100% is where you get the nasty readings and you STILL get blue flag. The upper max that scrapes through.
Luz hits about 1%. It laughs at supposed blue-flag beaches. We have cleaner than clean.
"No industrial, waste-water or sewage-related discharges should affect the beach area."
IIRC the pic shows the zone where I met the disinfection men (CRTA type). It was between Rua do Ramalhete and Rua Direita, near the road to Lagos ...
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My third and fourth manholes pics are of CML type indeed.
I put here the fifth pic.
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Any chance of this in everyday English? What do you mean by "foul"? Sewage?
There must still be some articles online concerning the MariLuz case, RIP, poor tot.
It is in everyday English but maybe not the everyday English you speak. Which bits do you want simplified?
Precis:
There are four sorts of drainage systems; foul, storm, combined and flooded. Foul is for domestic sewage and maybe some industrial waste; storm is for rainfall run off. Some places have combined systems which are self explanatory (sh*t and storm run off flow down the same pipe, but they are not built in the UK these days).
Storm drains may be pipes or open channels. Flooded systems are too complicated to explain here and are pretty much restricted to petrochemical complexes anyway. Manhole covers come in different classes some can be lifted by a man some can't.
I thought the accepted wisdom was the child could not let herself out? so if an "abductor" dropped her down a manhole the cover would need to be off already or the abductor had a set of manhole keys about his person or was towing a dribollic lifter behind him if the cover was a Class A. Mind you I expect the story would be this guy had fabricated his own pocket sonic CDA to the lift the cover to get round the obvious problem. Franky I don't think the idea of vanishing down a manhole has many legs, in the McCann case. I may be wrong of course.
http://manholecoverlifter.co.uk/
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Another type ... "CML saneamento" ... I did not see the interior.
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More ... all from PdL.
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And more from PdL ...
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And the last I found in my PC ... Note the tool to open the manhole ... All very hard to open without proper tools, I can assure you ...
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Thanks Heri,
In the photo second from the bottom is a grating over a rain/flood drain, I assume.
I am sure the grating is easily lifted. Does that go straight into a canal beneath the road or wide pipes, do you know?
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I am sure the grating is easily lifted.
I am not so sure. It seems you need proper tools.
Does that go straight into a canal beneath the road or wide pipes, do you know?
I do not know.
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There is a wastewater treatment plant in Ponta da Gaivota. In the general direction the Tanner-Smith abductor was facing. It is difficult to see in Google maps, but I took pics in one of my trips to PdL. Was this plant properly searched?
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There is a wastewater treatment plant in Ponta da Gaivota. In the general direction the Tanner-Smith abductor was facing. It is difficult to see in Google maps, but I took pics in one of my trips to PdL. Was this plant properly searched?
Scotland Yard searched a water plant last year, I don't know if it was the one in the photograph
**snip
Euclides Monteiro was working at a water and sewage plant in Lagos, four miles from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz where Madeleine was staying with her parents, Gerry and Kate.
Ex-colleagues of Monteiro, who was born in Cape Verde, have suggested that his duties included visiting other treatment plants in the area.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651846/Search-Madeleine-McCann-new-site-hard-water-treatment-plant-linked-suspect.html#ixzz3TbAIKJd3
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Scotland Yard searched a water plant last year, I don't know if it was the one in the photograph
**snip
Euclides Monteiro was working at a water and sewage plant in Lagos, four miles from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz where Madeleine was staying with her parents, Gerry and Kate.
Ex-colleagues of Monteiro, who was born in Cape Verde, have suggested that his duties included visiting other treatment plants in the area.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651846/Search-Madeleine-McCann-new-site-hard-water-treatment-plant-linked-suspect.html#ixzz3TbAIKJd3
It is not the same station.
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This is a serious suggestion so no need for a dose of random eraser.
Why don't our two foreign correspondents go to the Municipal Offices hand over a few escudos euros and buy copies of the "as built" drawings for the underground services in PdL?
That way we will have the full SP with no guessing.
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IIRC the pic shows the zone where I met the disinfection men (CRTA type). It was between Rua do Ramalhete and Rua Direita, near the road to Lagos ...
To repeat, I am not challenging what you posted as I can find that CRTA is common in Portugal. I will pop off tomorrow to the area you have ringed.
What a jolly thing to do on a Saturday in Luz - search for a CRTA manhole cover! 8(*(
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Thank you so very much, for that information, it's very kind of you, to check it out.
they have added hinges, which is a very good idea.
So it is only rain water that would go from these drains and run down that stream like canal and into the sea. I put a photo of a grated hole and near the Paraiso that runs down this gulley to the sea. It would have a large outlet pipe I should think? or go straight into the gulley/stream?
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1868.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1867ya.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1866j_small.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1865_small.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1864_small.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SR/cimg1863.jpg)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm
I get the general area where this is. There is a complex of around a dozen rental homes owned by a Dutch lady on the seafront just a few metres east of the Paraíso. Very pretty location, very lucrative, and it is up for sale at €1.6M, though as the lady is now quite old, I am sure she is open to offers.
There is a stream, than when it rains, comes down the valley and that looks like what most of your pics are about. Either the stream itself or the concrete channel used as a conduit for the stream.
Is this a likely place re Madeleine McCann? I would suggest this is a definite no. The complex is 'far' away from 5A (nothing is far away from anywhere in Luz, but trekking a body from 5A to here does not fly).
The stream empties onto the beach. It does not go into sewers or sea, it empties onto the beach. Then it makes a puddle in the sand. Sometimes the puddle is large enough to drain into the sea, but mainly it drains into the sand.
Not recommended for body concealment of any kind.
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This is a serious suggestion so no need for a dose of random eraser.
Why don't our two foreign correspondents go to the Municipal Offices hand over a few escudos euros and buy copies of the "as built" drawings for the underground services in PdL?
That way we will have the full SP with no guessing.
Happy to do so if it worked that way in Portugal and if it told us anything.
Problem 1. Like everyone else who is not in the police, I am not allowed to investigate a crime. Discussion is fine, investigation is illegal.
Problem 2. A map of the services in Luz will show us the services in Luz. A map of the services in Luz in 2007, should one exist, would show us the services in Luz in 2007. Jolly useful. It would tell us how many hundreds on manhole covers need to be lifted, and how many thousands of metres of pipes need to be examined.
We need manhole-cover lifters in abundance. We need pipe-examiners by the dozens. Surely this is a job for SY as its budget knows no limits?
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Happy to do so if it worked that way in Portugal and if it told us anything.
Problem 1. Like everyone else who is not in the police, I am not allowed to investigate a crime. Discussion is fine, investigation is illegal.
Problem 2. A map of the services in Luz will show us the services in Luz. A map of the services in Luz in 2007, should one exist, would show us the services in Luz in 2007. Jolly useful. It would tell us how many hundreds on manhole covers need to be lifted, and how many thousands of metres of pipes need to be examined.
We need manhole-cover lifters in abundance. We need pipe-examiners by the dozens. Surely this is a job for SY as its budget knows no limits?
Just checked the webcam and it looks as if you have a glorious day for it ... have fun!
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Happy to do so if it worked that way in Portugal and if it told us anything.
Problem 1. Like everyone else who is not in the police, I am not allowed to investigate a crime. Discussion is fine, investigation is illegal.
Problem 2. A map of the services in Luz will show us the services in Luz. A map of the services in Luz in 2007, should one exist, would show us the services in Luz in 2007. Jolly useful. It would tell us how many hundreds on manhole covers need to be lifted, and how many thousands of metres of pipes need to be examined.
We need manhole-cover lifters in abundance. We need pipe-examiners by the dozens. Surely this is a job for SY as its budget knows no limits?
Well over here the public have access to such records. Most drawings will record changes made and when they were made. You are not investigating a crime just wanting access to municipal records.
The drawings will show all manholes with coordinates, the invert level of the drain the cover level and the pipe diameter at the manholes. From that you can work out which ones are worth looking at. Simples.
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Well over here the public have access to such records. Most drawings will record changes made and when they were made. You are not investigating a crime just wanting access to municipal records.
The drawings will show all manholes with coordinates, the invert level of the drain the cover level and the pipe diameter at the manholes. From that you can work out which ones are worth looking at. Simples.
I'm not sure that the ease of access we enjoy is necessarily what happens in other countries; for example I was surprised that SY were unable to access the names of property owners as part of their investigation.
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I'm not sure that the ease of assess we enjoy is necessarily what happens in other countries; for example I was surprised that SY were unable to access the names of property owners as part of their investigation.
You may well be right, however what I have been getting around to saying politely which didn't work, is simply this (impolitely).
If you don't know what you are looking at you are bleedin' clueless with respect to implications. A cover in a road may lead to a sewer it may not, it may lead to a telecoms duct or merely be a rodding eye for a pipeline. If, in the absence of a drawing that tells you the full SP on what it is, you haven't lifted the cover and had a bleedin' good look you are merely guessing like a lot of stuff on here.
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I'm not sure that the ease of assess we enjoy is necessarily what happens in other countries; for example I was surprised that SY were unable to access the names of property owners as part of their investigation.
SY are not 'investigating'. They are a foreign police service they have no rights to'investigate' the lives or whereabouts of private citizens.
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SY are not 'investigating'. They are a foreign police service they have no rights to'investigate' the lives or whereabouts of private citizens.
If SY's presence in PdL is not part of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance - then what is it part of?
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I get the general area where this is. There is a complex of around a dozen rental homes owned by a Dutch lady on the seafront just a few metres east of the Paraíso. Very pretty location, very lucrative, and it is up for sale at €1.6M, though as the lady is now quite old, I am sure she is open to offers.
There is a stream, than when it rains, comes down the valley and that looks like what most of your pics are about. Either the stream itself or the concrete channel used as a conduit for the stream.
Is this a likely place re Madeleine McCann? I would suggest this is a definite no. The complex is 'far' away from 5A (nothing is far away from anywhere in Luz, but trekking a body from 5A to here does not fly).
The stream empties onto the beach. It does not go into sewers or sea, it empties onto the beach. Then it makes a puddle in the sand. Sometimes the puddle is large enough to drain into the sea, but mainly it drains into the sand.
Not recommended for body concealment of any kind.
Thank you, Shining
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You may well be right, however what I have been getting around to saying politely which didn't work, is simply this (impolitely).
If you don't know what you are looking at you are bleedin' clueless with respect to implications. A cover in a road may lead to a sewer it may not, it may lead to a telecoms duct or merely be a rodding eye for a pipeline. If, in the absence of a drawing that tells you the full SP on what it is, you haven't lifted the cover and had a bleedin' good look you are merely guessing like a lot of stuff on here.
Agreed.
I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT). Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two. Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large.
The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage. For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall. For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.
The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet. Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.
I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter. That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.
The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this. I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side. If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.
Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things. 1) Getting charged with investigating a crime. 2) Getting run over by traffic. Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.
Over to Scotland Yard!
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Agreed.
I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT). Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two. Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large.
The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage. For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall. For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.
The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet. Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.
I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter. That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.
The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this. I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side. If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.
Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things. 1) Getting charged with investigating a crime. 2) Getting run over by traffic. Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.
Over to Scotland Yard!
*&(+(+
I wonder if SC checked these pipes that were near 5A and open on 3rd may. I expect they did , as I recall they were using fibre optic cameras on pipes in that area.
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*&(+(+
I wonder if SC checked these pipes that were near 5A and open on 3rd may. I expect they did , as I recall they were using fibre optic cameras on pipes in that area.
The investigation was directed elsewhere to start with.
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Agreed.
I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT). Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two. Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large.
The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage. For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall. For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.
The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet. Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.
I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter. That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.
The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this. I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side. If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.
Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things. 1) Getting charged with investigating a crime. 2) Getting run over by traffic. Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.
Over to Scotland Yard!
Thanks Shining.
A different thought: am I right in thinking that there were quite a few abandoned wells in the area?
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Agreed.
I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT). Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two. Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large.
The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage. For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall. For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.
The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet. Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.
I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter. That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.
The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this. I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side. If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.
Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things. 1) Getting charged with investigating a crime. 2) Getting run over by traffic. Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.
Over to Scotland Yard!
In smaller communities the strorm drains will be bigger than the foul.
We do SI units over here in UK Shining! ie millimetres and metres.
8((()*/
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The investigation was directed elsewhere to start with.
Are you saying that the initial investigation botched the search of these areas?
The Polícia Judiciária were in charge of these diligences ... the crime scene was allowed to be contaminated ... it was some time before border patrols were alerted ... the refuse bins had been collected and deposited in land fill ... CCTV from nearby hotels had not been collected ...
... so that may indeed be the case.
From sources such as Goncalo Amaral's book ... we know that Madeleine McCann's parents and their friends were suspected from the word go ... so indeed the Polícia Judiciária might very well have directed the focus of the investigation away from inspecting the drainage system and concentrating entirely on them.
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Are you saying that the initial investigation botched the search of these areas?
The Polícia Judiciária were in charge of these diligences ... the crime scene was allowed to be contaminated ... it was some time before border patrols were alerted ... the refuse bins had been collected and deposited in land fill ... CCTV from nearby hotels had not been collected ...
... so that may indeed be the case.
From sources such as Goncalo Amaral's book ... we know that Madeleine McCann's parents and their friends were suspected from the word go ... so indeed the Polícia Judiciária might very well have directed the focus of the investigation away from inspecting the drainage system and concentrating entirely on them.
No I am suggesting that the "witnesses" pointed the police in a particular direction.
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No I am suggesting that the "witnesses" pointed the police in a particular direction.
You mean that the police did not follow the evidence??
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No I am suggesting that the "witnesses" pointed the police in a particular direction.
Wouldn't a competent police force pursue several lines of enquiry simultaneously and seek to validate or invalidate potential evidence as the investigation advanced?
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Wouldn't a competent police force pursue several lines of enquiry simultaneously and seek to valide or invalidate potential evidence as the investigation advanced?
You might think so, but apparently SY are only investigating an abduction theory - unless I have misunderstood.
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You might think so, but apparently SY are only investigating an abduction theory - unless I have misunderstood.
Wouldn't the Met and the PJ have eliminated the "ground under their feet" as a preliminary step prior to officially opening / reopening the investigation? Or do you think that there is an international police conspiracy? If so, for what purpose?
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Wouldn't the Met and the PJ have eliminated the "ground under their feet" as a preliminary step prior to officially opening / reopening the investigation? Or do you think that there is an international police conspiracy? If so, for what purpose?
Again, you would think so, but abduction seems to be the only game in town.
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Again, you would think so, but abduction seems to be the only game in town.
That is precisely what the scoping exercise carried out before the case was reopened in Britain and Portugal did; it led to the reopening of Madeleine's case by the PJ and SY; indeed as far as they are concerned and as you affirm ...
abduction is the only game in town.
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The investigation was directed elsewhere to start with.
IIRC, the SY team, were checking the sewer pipes on wasteland, but surely those areas that were being worked on near 5A and open 3rd may, would have been checked, by them.
They weren't checked by the PJ, who took the workers word for it, that nothing was there, IIRC.
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Thanks Shining.
A different thought: am I right in thinking that there were quite a few abandoned wells in the area?
Yes.
Luz is quite, quite artificial. Until the time of the Ocean Club development it was a very small village relying to an extent on non-modern sources of water i.e. wells rather than piped water. Well = o poço, and there is a rua do poço and a travessa do poço. In Madeleine's day there was a restaurant called O Poço, now The Galley.
However, the main wells were for the farms around Luz. No well = no water = no farm. Find an abandoned farm and you have probably found an abandoned well.
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*&(+(+
I wonder if SC checked these pipes that were near 5A and open on 3rd may. I expect they did , as I recall they were using fibre optic cameras on pipes in that area.
SC? I presume you mean SY. If you mean SY, they definitely did not check the areas that were dug on 3rd May. The two areas being worked on then were Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista and Rua Direita.
SY checked the mound, to the west of Rua Primeiro de Maio, and did look down some manholes there. The two other areas checked were a little way outside of Luz to the east, but I think those were surface checks only.
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In smaller communities the strorm drains will be bigger than the foul.
We do SI units over here in UK Shining! ie millimetres and metres.
8((()*/
Thanks. I have 3 houses in the UK and I'm a Brit. A lot of Brits don't understand metric sizes, so I was simply trying to make it clear that the 2007 works should have had a pipe large enough for Madeleine to fit into. Whether that happened or not is a different matter.
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Thanks. I have 3 houses in the UK and I'm a Brit. A lot of Brits don't understand metric sizes, so I was simply trying to make it clear that the 2007 works should have had a pipe large enough for Madeleine to fit into. Whether that happened or not is a different matter.
Knowing that a 700/750 pipe can be laid in a 900/950 wide trench could leave your name in the frame! 8(>((
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I am returning from Praia da Luz now. Today a misty day ...
I were not searching the manholes, but have got new info that I have to analyze to see if it can be relevant.
But following the old clues (Burglary + OC employee), I was in block 5, and in Luztur building.
Luztur building is a labyrinth, full of small apartments. Who were living there in 2007? I remember the PJ investigating from the 4th. floor to the top, IIRC. But from the 1st. to the 3rd. floor is a world ...
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SC? I presume you mean SY. If you mean SY, they definitely did not check the areas that were dug on 3rd May. The two areas being worked on then were Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista and Rua Direita.
SY checked the mound, to the west of Rua Primeiro de Maio, and did look down some manholes there. The two other areas checked were a little way outside of Luz to the east, but I think those were surface checks only.
Yes I did mean SY, sorry about that. It seems the sewage was checked in some areas, but not flood drains? It's not only a possibility of a child falling into one of those drains, but also of the child being hidden there by a person who may have removed her from 5 A.
SY would not be checking unused, sewage pipes in wasteland, unless this was also a possibility, they had considered.
I do appreciate metric measurements in "The old money" 8(0(*.
I only use metric, when I have too, but it still makes it harder to visualise, until it is converted to feet and inches.
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Wouldn't a competent police force pursue several lines of enquiry simultaneously and seek to validate or invalidate potential evidence as the investigation advanced?
Short answer Yes!...there was too much going on. If it was in the UK the parents would have been held and questioned immediately. Crime scene would have been cordened off. The investigaiton would be instant. All theories would be considered and illiminated quicker I believe.
I also believe the parents strange behaviour baffled the PJ.
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I am returning from Praia da Luz now. Today a misty day ...
I were not searching the manholes, but have got new info that I have to analyze to see if it can be relevant.
But following the old clues (Burglary + OC employee), I was in block 5, and in Luztur building.
Luztur building is a labyrinth, full of small apartments. Who were living there in 2007? I remember the PJ investigating from the 4th. floor to the top, IIRC. But from the 1st. to the 3rd. floor is a world ...
The gate looks far more secure and stronger than it did in the 2007 photographs.
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Knowing that a 700/750 pipe can be laid in a 900/950 wide trench could leave your name in the frame! 8(>((
Lucky I was in the UK in May 2007 and never set foot in Luz until Feb 2012!
By the way, don't think of UK type standards re trench-digging and trench filling. About the second week of Jan 2015, without any advance warning whatsoever, workmen started digging up Rua de Cemitério, starting at the eastern end. Water was cut off without notice and people whose car drives went onto the road were cut off, with no way in/out. The trench is roughly of Madeleine-type width and depth. They went 3/4 of the way along the road before they started back-filling. The eastern end still has open holes and access is still denied. I don't know if they have actually reached the western end yet.
The folks who lived through the 2007 upgrades say it was similarly chaotic, and disposal via the drains is seen as quite likely. (Whether that is what happened or not.)
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Lucky I was in the UK in May 2007 and never set foot in Luz until Feb 2012!
By the way, don't think of UK type standards re trench-digging and trench filling. About the second week of Jan 2015, without any advance warning whatsoever, workmen started digging up Rua de Cemitério, starting at the eastern end. Water was cut off without notice and people whose car drives went onto the road were cut off, with no way in/out. The trench is roughly of Madeleine-type width and depth. They went 3/4 of the way along the road before they started back-filling. The eastern end still has open holes and access is still denied. I don't know if they have actually reached the western end yet.
The folks who lived through the 2007 upgrades say it was similarly chaotic, and disposal via the drains is seen as quite likely. (Whether that is what happened or not.)
One doesn't have to be in Portugal to risk ending up in a hole in the process of public works being carried out ... your description mirrors exactly what happens in my neck of the woods.
From what I have read the choices for deliberate disposal are drains, road works, abandoned farm wells, under a new build (patio, dwelling, swimming pool) or the sea.
Despite it being obvious to the inhabitants of PDL in 2007 that the works disruption might have provided the answer to what happened to Madeleine, even if a search had been carried out I think it would have required a fingertip search of the most obvious areas.
Aisling Symes was discovered some 35 metres from the drain entrance where she fell in.
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One doesn't have to be in Portugal to risk ending up in a hole in the process of public works being carried out ... your description mirrors exactly what happens in my neck of the woods.
From what I have read the choices for deliberate disposal are drains, road works, abandoned farm wells, under a new build (patio, dwelling, swimming pool) or the sea.
Despite it being obvious to the inhabitants of PDL in 2007 that the works disruption might have provided the answer to what happened to Madeleine, even if a search had been carried out I think it would have required a fingertip search of the most obvious areas.
Aisling Symes was discovered some 35 metres from the drain entrance where she fell in.
In Peter Cheyney, Raymond Chandler, Eric Ambler and Jon Cleary novels perchance?
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Lucky I was in the UK in May 2007 and never set foot in Luz until Feb 2012!
By the way, don't think of UK type standards re trench-digging and trench filling. About the second week of Jan 2015, without any advance warning whatsoever, workmen started digging up Rua de Cemitério, starting at the eastern end. Water was cut off without notice and people whose car drives went onto the road were cut off, with no way in/out. The trench is roughly of Madeleine-type width and depth. They went 3/4 of the way along the road before they started back-filling. The eastern end still has open holes and access is still denied. I don't know if they have actually reached the western end yet.
The folks who lived through the 2007 upgrades say it was similarly chaotic, and disposal via the drains is seen as quite likely. (Whether that is what happened or not.)
If disposal or accident was via flood drain, would her remains, not have eventually been washed out and end up wherever these drains empty into?
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If disposal or accident was via flood drain, would her remains, not have eventually been washed out and end up wherever these drains empty into?
If it were a new storm drain under construction I would expect it to show up on test before the sewer is put into service. I don't know about Luz but on the face of it the logical thing for storm runoff is to have a sea outfall. The discharge point could be kms off shore.
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If it were a new storm drain under construction I would expect it to show up on test before the sewer is put into service. I don't know about Luz but on the face of it the logical thing for storm runoff is to have a sea outfall. The discharge point could be kms off shore.
Thank you Alice. So little chance of discovery then, if so far off shore?
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I suppose it would depend upon the prevailing currents and whatever predators might frequent that area.
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Thank you Alice. So little chance of discovery then, if so far off shore?
IF it is a long sea outfall virtually none as they are designed such that "stuff" is dispersed in the ocean currents and not washed back inshore in the immediate time scale by tides. I don't find the storm drain idea appealing on the grounds the drains will be virtually dry from May til September and a big flush through will not occur til November December. Then there remains the little matter of removing a manhole cover on a drain that must be 450 diameter or greater. I am not saying it is impossible just that it doesn't have a lot going for it as a plan in my opinion.
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I suppose it would depend upon the prevailing currents and whatever predators might frequent that area.
Yes Jassi, It is an awful thought, but definitely a consideration.
There is an outlet in PDL well away from the beach, it seems.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4961339630_58f798c5c5_z.jpg)
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IF it is a long sea outfall virtually none as they are designed such that "stuff" is dispersed in the ocean currents and not washed back inshore in the immediate time scale by tides. I don't find the storm drain idea appealing on the grounds the drains will be virtually dry from May til September and a big flush through will not occur til November December. Then there remains the little matter of removing a manhole cover on a drain that must be 450 diameter or greater. I am not saying it is impossible just that it doesn't have a lot going for it as a plan in my opinion.
Thanks Alice,
I see your point but, I am just trying to check all possibilities.
The drains being dry for so long would mean that by the time it started draining, there would be little left to flush out to sea, or wherever. What a gruesome thought! but unfortunately possible.
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Yes Jassi, It is an awful thought, but definitely a consideration.
There is an outlet in PDL well away from the beach, it seems.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4961339630_58f798c5c5_z.jpg)
I'm fairly sure that square cut channel is the outlet just to the west of the Bull/Fortaleza. That's the bright green dot on the left of my graphic.
As you can see, there is a small beach at that location. As it happens, 19 times out of 20 the storm drain empties onto the beach, not into the sea. It is only at extreme high tides that the little beach vanishes under water. (Most high tides leave a little bit of the little beach exposed.) This is not a strong contender for body disposal.
The green dot in the middle is the outlet to the south of the Fortaleza. It empties onto 20 to 30 metres of rocks, so it is definitely no good for body disposal.
The green dot to the east is around where I've read there is another outlet, but it is on a cliff so I'm guessing at precise position. I am far from certain so please don't quote me, but I believe it empties onto rocks at the bottom of the cliff. Whether is does or not, it would require unusual tide and wind conditions to wash away from the main beach.
Anna posted a photo earlier of a channel/stream on the west end of the promenade. That is connected to rainwater disposal also, but as I pointed out earlier, it normally empties into a large depression in the beach, forming a large pond. Sometimes the sea does connect to the pond, but I can't see remains floating over the depression, into the sea, and then away from the beach.
In summary, I don't see the drains as a 'good' solution (apologies) for Madeleine getting into one herself by accident.
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I'm fairly sure that square cut channel is the outlet just to the west of the Bull/Fortaleza. That's the bright green dot on the left of my graphic.
As you can see, there is a small beach at that location. As it happens, 19 times out of 20 the storm drain empties onto the beach, not into the sea. It is only at extreme high tides that the little beach vanishes under water. (Most high tides leave a little bit of the little beach exposed.) This is not a strong contender for body disposal.
The green dot in the middle is the outlet to the south of the Fortaleza. It empties onto 20 to 30 metres of rocks, so it is definitely no good for body disposal.
The green dot to the east is around where I've read there is another outlet, but it is on a cliff so I'm guessing at precise position. I am far from certain so please don't quote me, but I believe it empties onto rocks at the bottom of the cliff. Whether is does or not, it would require unusual tide and wind conditions to wash away from the main beach.
Anna posted a photo earlier of a channel/stream on the west end of the promenade. That is connected to rainwater disposal also, but as I pointed out earlier, it normally empties into a large depression in the beach, forming a large pond. Sometimes the sea does connect to the pond, but I can't see remains floating over the depression, into the sea, and then away from the beach.
In summary, I don't see the drains as a 'good' solution (apologies) for Madeleine getting into one herself by accident.
Thanks Shining.
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Random question - not sure where it belongs:-
Was the lift shaft checked?
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In my opinion Madeleine going out on her own would be impossible if we consider the window being left open.
And if Madeleine war removed from the 5A by someone else then drains would be one of the option of a potential perpetrator to hide her body in case if she was dead.
But to conclude this we have to TRUE three options:
1. Madeleine was removed by someone else
2. Madeleine was dead
3. The person has chosen to hide her body inside the drainage system.
Mathematical probability of all these IFs and TRUEs would be quite low.
Another thing is that Praia da Luz did not have the drainage system installed all over the village. A big percentage of properties in PDL have old fashioned holes in the ground under the houses which from time to time gets treated with chemicals to get rid of the smell.
I remember I investigated this myself back in 2008 and I found if very interesting. These private waste systems would be impossible to search! So, if there was a body and the body was put into one of these holes under the houses in PDL then it will never be found.
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In my opinion Madeleine going out on her own would be impossible if we consider the window being left open.
And if Madeleine war removed from the 5A by someone else then drains would be one of the option of a potential perpetrator to hide her body in case if she was dead.
But to conclude this we have to TRUE three options:
1. Madeleine was removed by someone else
2. Madeleine was dead
3. The person has chosen to hide her body inside the drainage system.
Mathematical probability of all these IFs and TRUEs would be quite low.
Another thing is that Praia da Luz did not have the drainage system installed all over the village. A big percentage of properties in PDL have old fashioned holes in the ground under the houses which from time to time gets treated with chemicals to get rid of the smell.
I remember I investigated this myself back in 2008 and I found if very interesting. These private waste systems would be impossible to search! So, if there was a body and the body was put into one of these holes under the houses in PDL then it will never be found.
If the perpetrator was local it would have been an obvious choice for concealment and disposal.
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If the perpetrator was local it would have been an obvious choice for concealment and disposal.
But then he-she would need to be home alone or to have 2 properties and one being empty at the time and and same time having the old fashioned sewage system.
Then again I remember from some other tourist areas that these holes get cleaned from time to time. Although I remember seeing this on my grandmother's farm where she was born and it was never cleaned.
EDIT: If you google search 'septic tank' and Praia da Luz you can see that almost all villas advertised in PDL have septic tanks
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Random question - not sure where it belongs:-
Was the lift shaft checked?
I have never seen it mentioned that the lift shaft was searched, Misty.
I have often thought about what the void under the apartment was like, was it solid rock or just space - perhaps even storage.
Like many houses in PDL including Casa Liliana my house is built on a slope with the front entrance at street level and a drop at the back ... I can stand at full height in the space underneath. Like the Murats I have blocked the outer door and access is through a hidden trap in the house.
The height of the balcony at 5A suggests a void and the lift mechanism had to be somewhere.
Children and adults do manage to fall down lift shafts, often the fall is fatal, which is fortunately not the case for this eighteen month old, who went up and down several times as the lift was in use throughout his ordeal ...
A Melbourne toddler fell down a lift shaft and had to cling to the side of the lift for 15 minutes..
https://www.facebook.com/9News/posts/338898496130021
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But then he-she would need to be home alone or to have 2 properties and one being empty at the time and and same time having the old fashioned sewage system.
Then again I remember from some other tourist areas that these holes get cleaned from time to time. Although I remember seeing this on my grandmother's farm where she was born and it was never cleaned.
EDIT: If you google search 'septic tank' and Praia da Luz you can see that almost all villas advertised in PDL have septic tanks
Just as there are abandoned wells around PDL ... I imagine there may well be abandoned and forgotten septic tanks too?
Perhaps not, my father described the hygiene rules for dry toilets in use in the farms where he worked as a boy ... I was incredulous ... but maybe the countryside dwellers in Portugal were like the countryside dwellers in Scotland and made use of these until septic tanks became mandatory?
There are just so many places where someone with the will and the time could have hidden her.
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I have never seen it mentioned that the lift shaft was searched, Misty.
I have often thought about what the void under the apartment was like, was it solid rock or just space - perhaps even storage.
Like many houses in PDL including Casa Liliana my house is built on a slope with the front entrance at street level and a drop at the back ... I can stand at full height in the space underneath. Like the Murats I have blocked the outer door and access is through a hidden trap in the house.
The height of the balcony at 5A suggests a void and the lift mechanism had to be somewhere.
Children and adults do manage to fall down lift shafts, often the fall is fatal, which is fortunately not the case for this eighteen month old, who went up and down several times as the lift was in use throughout his ordeal ...
A Melbourne toddler fell down a lift shaft and had to cling to the side of the lift for 15 minutes..
https://www.facebook.com/9News/posts/338898496130021
Thanks for that, Brietta, & the link to that near-disaster story.
It always struck me as odd that the lifts, void under the building and roof areas were never mentioned in relation to the searches. Places where perhaps Eddie & Keela should have been allowed to have a little nose around.
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In my opinion Madeleine going out on her own would be impossible if we consider the window being left open.
And if Madeleine was removed from the 5A by someone else then drains would be one of the option of a potential perpetrator to hide her body in case if she was dead.
But to conclude this we have to TRUE three options:
1. Madeleine was removed by someone else
2. Madeleine was dead
3. The person has chosen to hide her body inside the drainage system.
Mathematical probability of all these IFs and TRUEs would be quite low.
Another thing is that Praia da Luz did not have the drainage system installed all over the village. A big percentage of properties in PDL have old fashioned holes in the ground under the houses which from time to time gets treated with chemicals to get rid of the smell.
I remember I investigated this myself back in 2008 and I found if very interesting. These private waste systems would be impossible to search! So, if there was a body and the body was put into one of these holes under the houses in PDL then it will never be found.
I'm curious as to why you assume point 1 above.
I'm more curious as to how you conclude that a large percentage of houses in Luz have cess pits? The vast bulk of Luz was (or appears to have been) built within the last 30 years, and that in keeping with what I know of its development. And how does one look at a house and know whether it has a cess pit or modern drains?
I have not yet (3 years on) seen a single cess pit being drained.
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Random question - not sure where it belongs:-
Was the lift shaft checked?
There appears to be a lift engine room on the roof.
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There appears to be a lift engine room on the roof.
Good to see you back, pegasus.
There must have been lift mechanisms somewhere and the roof would be a likely spot ... I never saw any reports that the lift shafts of the buildings had been checked.
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Good to see you back, pegasus.
There must have been lift mechanisms somewhere and the roof would be a likely spot ... I never saw any reports that the lift shafts of the buildings had been checked.
A good person to ask might be one of our members who has been up those stairs. 1st floor = G H I J, 2nd floor = K L M N, 3rd floor = O P Q R penthouses (bedrooms), 4th floor = O P Q R penthouses (main level). A question for them, do the stairs go up another floor beyond that, to the lift room? Re the sad case of the stormdrain in New Zealand, I wonder if police ever asked that UK tourist who of that evening saw a drain with cover missing, to show them on a map exactly where (it was near supermarket IIRC?).
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A good person to ask might be one of our members who has been up those stairs. 1st floor = G H I J, 2nd floor = K L M N, 3rd floor = O P Q R penthouses (bedrooms), 4th floor = O P Q R penthouses (main level). A question for them, do the stairs go up another floor beyond that, to the lift room? Re the sad case of the stormdrain in New Zealand, I wonder if police ever asked that UK tourist who of that evening saw a drain with cover missing, to show them on a map exactly where (it was near supermarket IIRC?).
The lift shaft?
A good idea, but I dont think so.
The scent of a cadavar would have soon alerted Eddie.... and how would she have got there?
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I'm curious as to why you assume point 1 above.
I'm more curious as to how you conclude that a large percentage of houses in Luz have cess pits? The vast bulk of Luz was (or appears to have been) built within the last 30 years, and that in keeping with what I know of its development. And how does one look at a house and know whether it has a cess pit or modern drains?
I have not yet (3 years on) seen a single cess pit being drained.
Some don't need draining. Although EU Law says that the main tank should be drained every four years, but this is recent law, which not a lot of people actually take any notice of.
Mine gets done when I feel like it, which is about every six years.
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Some don't need draining. Although EU Law says that the main tank should be drained every four years, but this is recent law, which not a lot of people actually take any notice of.
Mine gets done when I feel like it, which is about every six years.
Police in Australia have drained a septic tank in their search for William Tyrell. I imagine if a child's body had been put in one it would take draining to enable it to be located.
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Police in Australia have drained a septic tank in their search for William Tyrell. I imagine if a child's body had been put in one it would take draining to enable it to be located.
Yes, it would have to be drained. But that's not difficult. Our local farmer does it. It takes about twenty minutes. And the smell would cover any odour.
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In some streets I see two lines of round covers, here is a pair, I assume one is foul water drain and the other is rain water drain.
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In some streets I see two lines of round covers, here is a pair, I assume one is foul water drain and the other is rain water drain.
Ermm? Cant see what you are talking about Pegasus.
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Ermm? Cant see what you are talking about Pegasus.
click to enlarge. two round covers, one for the foulwater drain, the other for the rainwater drain
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Surely they would have thought about septic tanks wouldn't they? The police I mean.
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Surely they would have thought about septic tanks wouldn't they? The police I mean.
An impossible task Lace. In addition the surrounding countryside is pockmarked with natural wells and crevices in the rock structure which would be impossible to explore properly.
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click to enlarge. two round covers, one for the foulwater drain, the other for the rainwater drain
Thanks Peg
Was looking at the curved kerb for some reason %&5%£ and missed the drain covers completely
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15VOLUMEXVa_Page_4013
"I would further like to say that in connection with the disappearance of Madeleine, I saw a manhole with a cover removed. This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road. The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in. I returned the next day and noticed that the cover had been replaced. I am concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen."
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Re the open manhole. The cover and the frame had been removed and placed at the side of the road.
To remove the frame requires removing part of the road surface. So it was not removed for theft or prank. The obvious explanation is that the road surface was being replaced. The manhole cover with frame would be removed so that the sand/gravel lower layers of the new surface could be laid. IIRC in 2007 in Luz a part of the town centre (see map) just south of the big supermarket was being recobbled, so that is probably where this open manhole was? DW rog mentions this area IIRC?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00645/news-graphics-2007-_645170a.jpg
IMO there are 2 junctions which fit witness statement and resurfacing work, possibly B is more likely than A IMO. This is partly guesswork, and probably nothing to do with the case.
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Probably irrelevant, but why not ask witness: which manhole? One UK visit, streetview, easy.
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Probably irrelevant, but why not ask witness: which manhole? One UK visit, streetview, easy.
I would suggest this was one of the diligences carried out by Operation Grange and\or the Polícia Judiciária prior to the case being reopened independently of each other ... so it is a base which has probably been covered.
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I would suggest this was one of the diligences carried out by Operation Grange and\or the Polícia Judiciária prior to the case being reopened independently of each other ... so it is a base which has probably been covered.
Yes it is possible that they may have asked the witness already, I don't know. IMO it is possible that police were so concentrated on the charity collection in this statement, that they may have completely overlooked the mention of an open manhole?
BTW is there a statistical tendency in some wandering cases to walk downhill?
Going downhill begins by going south along Rua Martins. Just before the supermarket there is a choice, either continue south along Rua Martins, or fork right onto a path towards supermarket car park, and both choices appear IMO to be equally downhill.
The first choice (stay on R Martins), when continued by always choosing the most downhill option, passes through junction B.
The second choice (fork right to supermarket car park), when continued by always choosing the most downhill option, leads along a path around the west side of the supermarket building, and then passes through junction A.
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Yes it is possible that they may have asked the witness for already, I don't know. IMO it is possible that police were so concentrated on the charity collection in this statement, that they may have completely overlooked the mention of an open manhole?
BTW is there a statistical tendency in some wandering cases to walk downhill?
Going downhill begins by going south along Rua Martins. Just before the supermarket there is a choice, either continue south along Rua Martins, or fork right onto a path towards supermarket car park, and both choices appear IMO to be equally downhill.
The first choice (stay on R Martins), when continued by always choosing the most downhill option, passes through junction B.
The second choice (fork right to supermarket car park), when continued by always choosing the most downhill option, leads along a path around the west side of the supermarket building, and then passes through junction A.
A downhill trajectory is, I think an opinion of experts who have discussed the case; in at least one instance on video it was said that had Madeleine wandered she would have headed towards the lights at the entrance to the tapas restaurant.
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Yes it is possible that they may have asked the witness for already, I don't know. IMO it is possible that police were so concentrated on the charity collection in this statement, that they may have completely overlooked the mention of an open manhole?
BTW is there a statistical tendency in some wandering cases to walk downhill?
Going downhill begins by going south along Rua Martins. Just before the supermarket there is a choice, either continue south along Rua Martins, or fork right onto a path towards supermarket car park, and both choices appear IMO to be equally downhill.
The first choice (stay on R Martins), when continued by always choosing the most downhill option, passes through junction B.
The second choice (fork right to supermarket car park), when continued by always choosing the most downhill option, leads along a path around the west side of the supermarket building, and then passes through junction A.
I don't know about statistics, but it seems unlikely that anyone would travel uphill, unless they had some specific destination in mind.
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Witness description (a junction on a road which runs parallel with the supermarket) fits about a dozen junctions or more. Two of those junctions were in the areas being resurfaced with cobbles in 2007 and so they are more likely to have had a complete cover including frame removed. Both those junctions A and B are on downhill routes from n end of R Martins.
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I'm not saying that the extreme no crime situation actually happened but when I looked at possibilities it could still be included. You can't logically exclude it.
Luz is riddled with subterranean passages and drainage ducts, any child falling into an open drain might never be found. Alternatively, we know that work was going on in the roads around OC on the day before Maddie disappeared and that there were excavations left open overnight. Could she have fallen into such an excavation and the excavated earth fell in on top of her? All very plausible and all have occurred before.
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Luz is riddled with subterranean passages and drainage ducts, any child falling into an open drain might never be found. Alternatively, we know that work was going on in the roads around OC on the day before Maddie disappeared and that there were excavations left open overnight. Could she have fallen into such an excavation and the excavated earth fell in on top of her? All very plausible and all have occurred before.
Have they? Do you have a cite for a child falling into a hole and earth falling on top covering them up?
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Have they? Do you have a cite for a child falling into a hole and earth falling on top covering them up?
I think you will find several instances quite easily if you Google it.
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Luz is riddled with subterranean passages and drainage ducts, any child falling into an open drain might never be found. Alternatively, we know that work was going on in the roads around OC on the day before Maddie disappeared and that there were excavations left open overnight. Could she have fallen into such an excavation and the excavated earth fell in on top of her? All very plausible and all have occurred before.
stranger abduction is very plausible and has happened many times
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I have checked the first three pages of Google with the phrase "child falls in hole and earth covers them up", nothing has come up that would be remotely relevant to a child falling into a man-made hole such as roadworks and then being covered by the earth. Perhaps you can help?
I can find a few none of which were accidental coverings. For example ...
Missing Four Year Od Girl found Buried Alive in the Desert
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19851230&id=OaNPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MgYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6973,7740460&hl=en
Police: Girl attacked, buried alive in India
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/asia/india-girl-buried-alive/
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I'm willing to place a small wager with Angelo and John that more children are abducted by strangers every year, than accidentally fall into holes with earth falling on top of them.
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Luz is riddled with subterranean passages and drainage ducts, any child falling into an open drain might never be found. Alternatively, we know that work was going on in the roads around OC on the day before Maddie disappeared and that there were excavations left open overnight. Could she have fallen into such an excavation and the excavated earth fell in on top of her? All very plausible and all have occurred before.
That happened in NZ too where a toddler walked on a drain cover and it flipped and she fell in but the cover remained "in place". but in time they found her.
If it was a construction site and she was completely covered is possible too but somewhat less likely. that she would be covered entirely.
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Have they? Do you have a cite for a child falling into a hole and earth falling on top covering them up?
This is more an Asian thing where the soil is so loose and kids fall into holes. In PDL the soil is virtually non existent so it seems unlikely.
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I have checked the first three pages of Google with the phrase "child falls in hole and earth covers them up", nothing has come up that would be remotely relevant to a child falling into a man-made hole such as roadworks and then being covered by the earth. Perhaps you can help?
You obviously haven't tried too hard?
Body of 4-year-old boy recovered at excavation site
(http://www.heraldlive.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/IMG-20151128-WA0006.jpg)
http://www.heraldlive.co.za/body-4-year-old-boy-recovered-excavation-site/
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...or alternatively
Child dies in fall at construction site
https://www.theexpertinstitute.com/case-studies/child-dies-fall-construction-site/
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...even adults fall into excavations
Missing woman’s family ‘overjoyed’ at excavation
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/missing-womans-family-overjoyed-at-excavation-135523.html
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Children even fall down manholes
Six-year-old Utah boy rescued by police dog after falling 10-feet down open manhole
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2864879/Police-dog-finds-Utah-boy-falls-manhole.html
Boy, 9, plunged through a manhole when he stepped on a faulty cover and it 'flipped like a coin' smacking him in the chest
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979564/Boy-9-plunged-manhole-stepped-faulty-cover-flipped-like-coin-smacking-chest.html
Woman and child fall into open manhole
http://www.stabroeknews.com/2014/news/stories/02/04/woman-child-fall-open-manhole/
6-year-old rescued by police K9 after falling into manhole shares his story
http://fox13now.com/2014/12/06/6-year-old-rescued-by-police-k9-after-falling-into-manhole-shares-his-story/
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Sometimes the unthinkable happens
Child's body found in sewage pipe following flash floods
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-12/childs-body-found-in-sewage-pipe-following-flash-floods/
Jessica Morales became famous in 1987, when, at 18 months old, she fell down a well in her aunt's backyard.
http://www.biography.com/people/baby-jessica-17175736
Boy, 7, dies trapped in building site drainage pipe
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/105321/boy-7-dies-trapped-in-building-site-drainage-pipe/
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Children even fall down manholes
Six-year-old Utah boy rescued by police dog after falling 10-feet down open manhole
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2864879/Police-dog-finds-Utah-boy-falls-manhole.html
Boy, 9, plunged through a manhole when he stepped on a faulty cover and it 'flipped like a coin' smacking him in the chest
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979564/Boy-9-plunged-manhole-stepped-faulty-cover-flipped-like-coin-smacking-chest.html
Woman and child fall into open manhole
http://www.stabroeknews.com/2014/news/stories/02/04/woman-child-fall-open-manhole/
6-year-old rescued by police K9 after falling into manhole shares his story
http://fox13now.com/2014/12/06/6-year-old-rescued-by-police-k9-after-falling-into-manhole-shares-his-story/
Oh dear. Angelo said that it is not uncommon for children to fall into excavations and for the earth to then fall on top of them, burying them. I asked for some cites. Are these examples?
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Was this boy covered with earth?
No. Not in that case.
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Luz is riddled with subterranean passages and drainage ducts, any child falling into an open drain might never be found. Alternatively, we know that work was going on in the roads around OC on the day before Maddie disappeared and that there were excavations left open overnight. Could she have fallen into such an excavation and the excavated earth fell in on top of her? All very plausible and all have occurred before.
All very plausible for Madeleine to fall into a roadworks hole and then somehow be accidentally covered in the mound of earth left at the side? Apparently this has occurred before so let's see some examples.
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All very plausible for Madeleine to fall into a roadworks hole and then somehow be accidentally covered in the mound of earth left at the side? Apparently this has occurred before so let's see some examples.
This could account for the short term loss but over the years something would have surfaced.
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This could account for the short term loss but over the years something would have surfaced.
Could it? You think a child would fall into road works and somehow manage to cover herself in earth in the process? And the next day, the workmen, knowing full well a child has gone missing from the local vicinity wouldn't look at the hole and think - "hmm, that's odd, we didn't put all that earth in there last night" and just carry on business as usual? You probably do actually, god knows why I'm asking you!
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Could it? You think a child would fall into road works and somehow manage to cover herself in earth in the process? And the next day, the workmen, knowing full well a child has gone missing from the local vicinity wouldn't look at the hole and think - "hmm, that's odd, we didn't put all that earth in there last night" and just carry on business as usual? You probably do actually, god knows why I'm asking you!
Trenches were thoroughly investigated, but the open manhole reported by a witness was not.
"... I saw a manhole with the cover removed ... near the tapas restaurant and the Mccanns' apartment ... anyone could have fallen in ..." Processos page 4104
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Could it? You think a child would fall into road works and somehow manage to cover herself in earth in the process? And the next day, the workmen, knowing full well a child has gone missing from the local vicinity wouldn't look at the hole and think - "hmm, that's odd, we didn't put all that earth in there last night" and just carry on business as usual? You probably do actually, god knows why I'm asking you!
I was considering drains more so than trenches. You seem to be talking more of a deliberate burial.
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I was considering drains more so than trenches. (snip)
There is no sign that PJ or SY ever followed up on this ... (Processos p4014)
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There is no sign that PJ or SY ever followed up on this ... (Processos p4014)
Do you believe that RM was the only witness to the uncovered manhole?
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Do you believe that RM was the only witness to the uncovered manhole?
Has someone got the full link to this observation?
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Has someone got the full link to this observation?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PROCESSO_15a.htm
Scroll down to page 4014.
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Do you believe that RM was the only witness to the uncovered manhole?
There must certainly be at least one more witness - the unknown person who moved the cover and frame from the side of the road and replaced them onto the dangerous open hole.
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There must certainly be at least one more witness - the unknown person who moved the cover and frame from the side of the road and replaced them onto the dangerous open hole.
The difficulty is we don't know exactly when RM saw this uncovered manhole. It does not appear from his statement that he was involved in the searching overnight.
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The difficulty is we don't know exactly when RM saw this uncovered manhole. It does not appear from his statement that he was involved in the searching overnight.
It's clear that he saw the manhole open (cover removed) on the 3rd and then saw it closed (cover replaced) on the 4th. He describes the open manhole in a night-time context (easy to not see it in the dark despite the street-lights) therefore IMO he probably saw it open in the dark on evening of the 3rd.
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What road is being described Pegasus? "
This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road.
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What road is being described Pegasus? "
Don't know but IMO the road which fits the description best is ...
R Dr Francisco Gentil Martins
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Don't know but IMO the road which fits the description best is ...
R Dr Francisco Gentil Martins
I thought that was the road the other one was parallel to. It could have been Rua Primeiro de Maio, Luz, Portugal. Remember we discussing an accident along this road once before. Any road would have multiple drain covers along it. Does anyone know the witness (Rex Morgan) to confirm the location?
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I was considering drains more so than trenches. You seem to be talking more of a deliberate burial.
no, I'm questioning the likelihood of a child burying itself in a manmade hole. Apparently it happens all the time, though I've yet to read of one documented case.
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There is no sign that PJ or SY ever followed up on this ... (Processos p4014)
What did the police do on receipt of this information?
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no, I'm questioning the likelihood of a child burying itself in a manmade hole. Apparently it happens all the time, though I've yet to read of one documented case.
Tunnels built in sandhills used to concern my mum, There were cases like that.
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The difficulty is we don't know exactly when RM saw this uncovered manhole. It does not appear from his statement that he was involved in the searching overnight.
At older ages participation in nighttime search while certainly not impossible is low probability Misty. So I would rule out it being seen during the search. Therefore IMO the open manhole was seen before the search. It would be interesting to know what time.
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At older ages participation in nighttime search while certainly not impossible is low probability Misty. So I would rule out it being seen during the search. Therefore IMO the open manhole was seen before the search. It would be interesting to know what time.
Maybe we could use Facebook to find RM and ask him.
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It's clear that he saw the manhole open (cover removed) on the 3rd and then saw it closed (cover replaced) on the 4th. He describes the open manhole in a night-time context (easy to not see it in the dark despite the street-lights) therefore IMO he probably saw it open in the dark on evening of the 3rd.
How deep was this open manhole ?
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How deep was this open manhole ?
Stormwater and sewerage pipes could be 3-4 meters deep, It would be dependent on the terrain.
In NZ a child was thought to be abducted but later found she had fallen into the stormwater drain after walking across a manhole cover. The water flowing had carried the body 20 meters along the drain so was out of sight from searchers looking straight down the manhole.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/5150928/Details-of-toddlers-death-too-much-for-parents
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Maybe we could use Facebook to find RM and ask him.
Facebook wouldn't be a good method Robbity - that's more for the young and middle aged.
But here is an important principle - and I believe Misty agrees with me on this.
The principle is to fully respect witnesses' privacy, to not publish their contact details, and to not contact them.
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Facebook wouldn't be a good method Robbity - that's more for the young and middle aged.
But here is an important principle - and I believe Misty agrees with me on this.
The principle is to fully respect witnesses' privacy, to not publish their contact details, and to not contact them.
At this late stage in the investigation I would have no hesitation to do whatever I felt like doing. It up to the other person whether they respond to a friend request. It has to be consensual in every way. Maybe RM feels no one has listened to him. Who would have put the manhole cover back on?
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Stormwater and sewerage pipes could be 3-4 meters deep, It would be dependent on the terrain.
In NZ a child was thought to be abducted but later found she had fallen into the stormwater drain after walking across a manhole cover. The water flowing had carried the body 20 meters along the drain so was out of sight from searchers looking straight down the manhole.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/5150928/Details-of-toddlers-death-too-much-for-parents
They could have even more cover than 4000mm but the ones under discussion are in PdL not the Land of The Long White Cloud.
So do we know the depth and diameter of the drain that had the manhole with the cover removed ?
At this stage I don't think we need to get too hung up on the content of WPCF Manual of Practice #9 .. 8(>((
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At this late stage in the investigation I would have no hesitation to do whatever I felt like doing. It up to the other person whether they respond to a friend request. It has to be consensual in every way. Maybe RM feels no one has listened to him. Who would have put the manhole cover back on?
I wouldn't reveal the address and phonenumber of this or any other witness Robbity even if I had them.
There are 2 possible periods the witness saw manhole not covered
1. If witness saw open manhole before the 4pm home period, presumably the cover and frame would have been fixed back in place by a workman by 5pm, and would be of no interest.
2. If witness saw open manhole hours after the 4pm home period, for example after 6pm, that is after the workday when a workman might fix it back in place, so it might hypothetically remain open all night - which would obviously be of interest..
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R Dr Francisco Gentil Martins along its entire length has two drains running under the road surface, one is the rainwater drain, the other is the foulwater drain. So there are two lines of round metal inspection covers on the road surface..
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I wouldn't reveal the address and phonenumber of this or any other witness Robbity even if I had them.
There are 2 possible periods the witness saw manhole not covered
1. If witness saw open manhole before the 4pm home period, presumably the cover and frame would have been fixed back in place by a workman by 5pm, and would be of no interest.
2. If witness saw open manhole hours after the 4pm home period, for example after 6pm, that is after the workday when a workman might fix it back in place, so it might hypothetically remain open all night - which would obviously be of interest..
If I had the address I'd just contact them privately, I would not publish this without their permission.
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If I had the address I'd just contact them privately, I would not publish this without their permission.
There is absolutely no need to contact them. SY have worked their way through all the statements on file & have undoubtedly spoken to RM about this manhole cover. It is important to note that no-one else mentioned this hazard existing during the searches or being present when holidaymakers & staff were walking in the vicinity earlier in the evening.
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There is absolutely no need to contact them. SY have worked their way through all the statements on file & have undoubtedly spoken to RM about this manhole cover. ... (snip)
Precisely Misty. Hopefully OG have already determined the exact inspection cover (easy by short visit with connected laptop and streetview), got PJ to check whether it is rainwater or foulwater and who replaced the cover and frame and at what time. If it was replaced before evening then it's irrelevant.
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The manholes near block 5 are regularly disinfected against cockroaches, a child falling into these ones at least would not be lost given that the outlet pipe is a mere 6" diameter.
(http://i.imgur.com/AQiZmgi.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/n2jyw2c.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/gx7HhB4.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/0m2H771.jpg?1)
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Precisely Misty. Hopefully OG have already determined the exact inspection cover (easy by short visit with connected laptop and streetview), got PJ to check whether it is rainwater or foulwater and who replaced the cover and frame and at what time. If it was replaced before evening then it's irrelevant.
In the Symes case the cover was in nearly in position but it was still capable of rotating on the balance points. When the girl walked over it, it flipped and fell back down again, looking closed but actually a lethal trap.
Cadaver dogs could be called back in.
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The manholes near block 5 are regularly disinfected against cockroaches, a child falling into these ones at least would not be lost given that the outlet pipe is a mere 6" diameter (snip)
Agreed John but there are two different types of drains running side by side down Rua Martins.
In this photo a short distance downhill from 5A you can see there are pairs of inspection covers extending down the road - there is a foulwater drain, and a rainwater drain.
If you remove an inspection cover of the foulwater drain it may look like your photos John, small diameter.
But if you remove an inspection cover of the rainwater drain, IMO you will find a larger diameter pipe.
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Agreed John but there are two different types of drains running side by side down Rua Martins.
In this photo a short distance downhill from 5A you can see there are pairs of inspection covers extending down the road - there is a foulwater drain, and a rainwater drain.
If you remove an inspection cover of the foulwater drain it may look like your photos John, small diameter.
But if you remove an inspection cover of the rainwater drain, IMO you will find a larger diameter pipe.
The drains which tend to have large diameter pipes and deep manholes are associated with the storm water run off. I don't think there are any on that particular street.
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In the Symes case the cover was in nearly in position but it was still capable of rotating on the balance points. When the girl walked over it, it flipped and fell back down again, looking closed but actually a lethal trap.
(snip)
Yes that's probably how it happened.
A searcher found it nearly in position, but upside-down, so it must have rotated 180 when stepped on.
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The drains which tend to have large diameter pipes and deep manholes are associated with the storm water run off. I don't think there are any on that particular street.
There are 2 drains on R Martins, proven by the pairs of inspection covers, One must be foulwater, the other must be stormwater/rainwater. And further proof is the storm/rainwater inlets along both sides of road.
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The drain theory is only plausible if one believes all the cadaver dog alerts ONLY surrounding the mccanns are false
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In the Symes case the cover was in nearly in position but it was still capable of rotating on the balance points. When the girl walked over it, it flipped and fell back down again ..., (snip)
Same thing happened in another case posted earlier by John, a slightly out of position round cover flipped when stepped on. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979564/Boy-9-plunged-manhole-stepped-faulty-cover-flipped-like-coin-smacking-chest.html
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... and a video of a slightly out-of-position cover flipping when stepped on
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2731123/Three-year-old-boy-narrowly-escapes-falling-drain-manhole-cover-gives-way-beneath-feet.html
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There are 2 drains on R Martins, proven by the pairs of inspection covers, One must be foulwater, the other must be stormwater/rainwater. And further proof is the storm/rainwater inlets along both sides of road.
Yes I agree but I am talking about the really big emergency storm drains some of which which you can walk in.
(http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/madeleine-mccann-in-pictures/4689977.jpg)
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Yes I agree but I am talking about the really big emergency storm drains some of which which you can walk in.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/madeleine-mccann-in-pictures/4689977.jpg
John your photo is of the ordinary rainwater drain outlet south of the church.
Water from the R Martins rainwater drain flows to the outlet in your photo IMO.
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John your photo is of the ordinary rainwater drain outlet south of the church.
Water from the R Martins rainwater drain flows to the outlet in your photo IMO.
Yes that's correct but I don't know which route the pipe takes from the top of the town down to the beach.
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Yes that's correct but I don't know which route the pipe takes from the top of the town down to the beach.
There are hundreds of rain/stormwater pipes under the streets of the town, they converge to several rainwater outlets on the shore, for example one is south of church (your photo with searchers inside) and another is at end of Rua das Fontainhas which is identical large diameter.
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There are hundreds of rain/stormwater pipes under the streets of the town, they converge to several rainwater outlets on the shore, for example one is south of church (your photo with searchers inside) and another is at end of Rua das Fontainhas which is identical large diameter.
Indeed, a searchers nightmare.
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Same thing happened in another case posted earlier by John, a slightly out of position round cover flipped when stepped on. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979564/Boy-9-plunged-manhole-stepped-faulty-cover-flipped-like-coin-smacking-chest.html
The cover the lad stepped on was a Class A for use in grassed and pedestrian areas, like it says on it Class A150. It could also have been fabricated from plastic as the design superload would be three fifths of five eighths of FA.
A manhole cover in a road taking only slow moving heavy traffic would be, in the UK, called class C250,
If you want to argue the ins and outs of the traffic loading gimme the Portuguese design codes.
Back to the plot; Class C weights kick off at 55kg for a 450mm diameter job.
I leave you all to calculate and debate.
Useful references European Standard BS EN124 and of course WPCF Manual of Practice #9.
It's much more accurate than guessing but not as much fun I guess 8(0(*
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The cover the lad stepped on was a Class A for use in grassed and pedestrian areas, like it says on it Class A150. It could also have been fabricated from plastic as the design superload would be three fifths of five eighths of FA.
A manhole cover in a road taking only slow moving heavy traffic would be, in the UK, called class C250,
If you want to argue the ins and outs of the traffic loading gimme the Portuguese design codes.
Back to the plot; Class C weights kick off at 55kg for a 450mm diameter job.
I leave you all to calculate and debate.
Useful references European Standard BS EN124 and of course WPCF Manual of Practice #9.
It's much more accurate than guessing but not as much fun I guess 8(0(*
If you remove an A150 cover from one manhole and remove a C250 cover from another manhole and place the covers at the side of the road, which of the two holes has the greatest weight bearing strength now Alice?
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If you remove an A150 cover from one manhole and remove a C250 cover from another manhole and place the covers at the side of the road, which of the two holes has the greatest weight bearing strength now Alice?
@)(++(*
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If you remove an A150 cover from one manhole and remove a C250 cover from another manhole and place the covers at the side of the road, which of the two holes has the greatest weight bearing strength now Alice?
Air has a pretty low load bearing capacity 8(0(* however if the cover is set to one side leaving the hole totally exposed how does the cover then flip up about metre in the air when trodden on ? which was rather the issue in the article you linked. Are you saying the mass of the cover is irrelevant in this instance?
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Air has a pretty low load bearing capacity 8(0(* however if the cover is set to one side leaving the hole totally exposed how does the cover then flip up about metre in the air when trodden on ? which was rather the issue in the article you linked. Are you saying the mass of the cover is irrelevant in this instance?
In the many cases of a cover slightly out of position which flips when a person stands on it, yes the mass of the cover will affect how fast it flips, how hard it hits the person as they fall,and whether the cover ends up right way up, or (in the AS case) upside-down, so your technical data is very relevant to the flipping covers Alice.
But I was wandering back to the pdl case where a witness stated seeing a cover, not slightly out of position, but completely removed (frame also) and placed at the side of the road.
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In the many cases of a cover slightly out of position which flips when a person stands on it, yes the mass of the cover will affect how fast it flips, how hard it hits the person as they fall,and whether the cover ends up right way up, or (in the AS case) upside-down, so your technical data is very relevant to the flipping covers Alice.
But I was wandering back to the pdl case where a witness stated seeing a cover, not slightly out of position, but completely removed (frame also) and placed at the side of the road.
Yeah I forgot that bit! It is easy to do with Robbity about.
Cover off, fall down hole stay in hole unless the outlet sewer is 400 diameter or above then one could crawl along it or be washed through.
We have done all this before...............I thought SiL was going to obtain copies of the drawings last time out?
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Yeah I forgot that bit! It is easy to do with Robbity about.
Cover off, fall down hole stay in hole unless the outlet sewer is 400 diameter or above then one could crawl along it or be washed through.
We have done all this before...............I thought SiL was going to obtain copies of the drawings last time out?
What did I have to do with this?
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Yeah I forgot that bit! It is easy to do with Robbity about.
Cover off, fall down hole stay in hole unless the outlet sewer is 400 diameter or above then one could crawl along it or be washed through.
We have done all this before...............I thought SiL was going to obtain copies of the drawings last time out?
Can I ask what drawings I was supposedly going to get?
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Can I ask what drawings I was supposedly going to get?
Presumably the complete detailed plans of both the storm drain network and the foul drain network for the whole of PDL in 2007 Shining. But I certainly don't recall you ever saying you would post them.