UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on April 11, 2015, 11:30:01 AM
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Here we are nearly eight years on and some £10 million worse for wear to the public purse and still by all accounts and despite the best efforts by both the Portuguese and English police, not a trace of Madeleine McCann has been found.
Given the conduct by those involved directly in the investigation and the numerous unanswered questions which surround them, is it now time for a Public Inquiry into the whole sordid affair?
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Here we are nearly eight years on and some £10 million worse for wear to the public purse and still by all accounts and despite the best efforts by both the Portuguese and English police, not a sign of Madeleine McCann has been found.
Given the conduct by those involved directly in the investigation and the numerous unanswered questions which surround them, is it now time for a Public Inquiry into the whole sordid affair?
No! that would be throwing good taxpayers money after bad. IMHO of course.
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Here we are nearly eight years on and some £10 million worse for wear to the public purse and still by all accounts and despite the best efforts by both the Portuguese and English police, not a trace of Madeleine McCann has been found.
Given the conduct by those involved directly in the investigation and the numerous unanswered questions which surround them, is it now time for a Public Inquiry into the whole sordid affair?
you mean spend another 10 million
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No! that would be throwing good taxpayers money after bad. IMHO of course.
There seems to be no appetite for a public inquiry ... as the organisers of a petition in another place have discovered.
I do not agree that investigating the cases of missing children is "bad money" ... but I do agree a public inquiry in this instance would be an unnecessary use of resources, time and effort.
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There seems to be no appetite for a public inquiry ... as the organisers of a petition in another place have discovered.
I do not agree that investigating the cases of missing children is "bad money" ... but I do agree a public inquiry in this instance would be an unnecessary use of resources, time and effort.
I didn't say it was. I think Operation Grange is questionable in principle regardless of the names involved.
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I didn't say it was. I think Operation Grange is questionable in principle regardless of the names involved.
Agreed Alice. As SY have absolutely no judicial power in Portugal unless their investigation tallys with what has been unearthed by the PJ what exactly is the point of spending all that money ?
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Here we are nearly eight years on and some £10 million worse for wear to the public purse and still by all accounts and despite the best efforts by both the Portuguese and English police, not a trace of Madeleine McCann has been found.
Given the conduct by those involved directly in the investigation and the numerous unanswered questions which surround them, is it now time for a Public Inquiry into the whole sordid affair?
Who do you mean by "those involved directly in the investigation"?
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Who do you mean by "those involved directly in the investigation"?
Everyone ie witnesses, police, private investigators, press etc etc...
There are some questionable practices which have gone on in this case apart from the events surrounding Madeleine's dissapearance and which many consider to have been illegal under Portuguese criminal law.
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Everyone ie witnesses, police, private investigators, press etc etc...
How can a public enquiry investigate the actions of the Portuguese police & press?
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How can a public enquiry investigate the actions of the Portuguese police & press?
The Portuguese equivalent can. It's time these matters were properly investigated and those culpable held to account.
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Everyone ie witnesses, police, private investigators, press etc etc...
There are some questionable practices which have gone on in this case apart from the events surrounding Madeleine's dissapearance and which many consider to have been illegal under Portuguese criminal law.
Are you talking about the PJ leaking false information to the press.......the PJ lying to the McCanns during interviews
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The Portuguese equivalent can. It's time these matters were properly investigated and those culpable held to account.
The purpose of the present enquiry (as was the purpose of the first enquiry) is/was to identify those culpable and hold them to account ....
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Are you talking about the PJ leaking false information to the press.......the PJ lying to the McCanns during interviews
I suspect they may get away with lying to the McCanns during interviews, because I suspect that may be regarded as a legitimate tactic (with, I should stress, the proviso that an honest account of events being produced in the final PJ document, which happened with Joao Carlos' genuinely fine final PJ report).
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Here we are nearly eight years on and some £10 million worse for wear to the public purse and still by all accounts and despite the best efforts by both the Portuguese and English police, not a trace of Madeleine McCann has been found.
Given the conduct by those involved directly in the investigation and the numerous unanswered questions which surround them, is it now time for a Public Inquiry into the whole sordid affair?
Deffo and about time too! Far too many skeletons in far too many cupboards imo.
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SY were brought into review the case. Apart from the press, who ever thought they were going to arrest anyone? charge them ?
You can tell by the response of the supporters that Team McCann would hate the very idea of one.
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Are you talking about the PJ leaking false information to the press.......the PJ lying to the McCanns during interviews
What did they lie about davel? Maddies DNA could very well have been in the hire car 8(0(*
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Everyone ie witnesses, police, private investigators, press etc etc...
Thanks.
- Witnesses: I don't really see what witnesses could provide beyond their rogatory interviews.
- Private investigators: possibly, but I'm not sure what they could reveal in terms of substance into what happened to Madeleine that the police aren't already aware of.
- Police: in a delicate diplomatic situation, I can't imagine how the UK police would say any more than they did in the Leveson Inquiry. I don't see how a UK public inquiry could require former PJ officers to testify, nor whether current PJ officers would admit to what they may have uncovered, either in terms of the Madeleine investigation, or in terms of the sources of half-baked myths being promoted at the time.
- Press: see Leveson Inquiry.
I don't even see the grounds for it, let alone what it could elucidate, beyond the investigations currently underway in both countries, which taxpayers are already paying for.
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What did they lie about davel? Maddies DNA could very well have been in the hire car 8(0(*
Yes, it could. Her belongings were presumably also transferred to the family's new abode, and her toys could have been taken in the car for the twins to use during outings.
The results don't even show that it was her DNA as they showed a result of 15 out of 37 alleles in a family car. Well obviously individual components would be present... the individual components (alleles) are not specific to any particular person. We all share some of them, even total strangers.
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Thanks.
- Witnesses: I don't really see what witnesses could provide beyond their rogatory interviews.
- Private investigators: possibly, but I'm not sure what they could reveal in terms of substance into what happened to Madeleine that the police aren't already aware of.
- Police: in a delicate diplomatic situation, I can't imagine how the UK police would say any more than they did in the Leveson Inquiry. I don't see how a UK public inquiry could require former PJ officers to testify, nor whether current PJ officers would admit to what they may have uncovered, either in terms of the Madeleine investigation, or in terms of the sources of half-baked myths being promoted at the time.
- Press: see Leveson Inquiry.
I don't even see the grounds for it, let alone what it could elucidate, beyond the investigations currently underway in both countries, which taxpayers are already paying for.
I would anticipate a Portuguese led inquiry with witnesses from the UK and Spain being called to testify. Those of us who have followed the case extremely closely are very aware that there is a criminal case to answer beyond Maddie's disappearance and that my friend is what worries some the most.
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Yes, it could. Her belongings were presumably also transferred to the family's new abode, and her toys could have been taken in the car for the twins to use during outings.
The results don't even show that it was her DNA as they showed a result of 15 out of 37 alleles in a family car. Well obviously individual components would be present... the individual components (alleles) are not specific to any particular person. We all share some of them, even total strangers.
And is it not worth adding, there, that as 4 contributors to the mix are likely to have been Madeleine's direct relatives (her twin siblings and her parents) a very high number of shared alleles is all the more likely?
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And is it not worth adding, there, that as 4 contributors to the mix are likely to have been Madeleine's direct relatives (her twin siblings and her parents) a very high number of shared alleles is all the more likely?
Then there is the dogs and we all know what Mr Grime said about those alerts.
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And is it not worth adding, there, that as 4 contributors to the mix are likely to have been Madeleine's direct relatives (her twin siblings and her parents) a very high number of shared alleles is all the more likely?
Not just four relatives, FM. Numerous relatives came out to support them and would presumably have been in that car and transported stuff with their own DNA in that car as well. And, as relatives, they would share some of her DNA as well.
It doesn't even to be relatives: I probably share at least six alleles in common with her, and you probably do as well, and they may be different ones.
It's a non-starter.
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Not just four relatives, FM. Numerous relatives came out to support them and would presumably have been in that car and transported stuff with their own DNA in that car as well. And, as relatives, they would share some of her DNA as well.
It doesn't even to be relatives: I probably share at least six alleles in common with her, and you probably do as well, and they may be different ones.
It's a non-starter.
Good point ...
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Then there is the dogs and we all know what Mr Grime said about those alerts.
No evidential reliability could be placed on them ...
Harrison's penultimate sentence of his final report says tells us Harrison considered if Madeleine is dead, he considers it most likely her remains were jettisoned into the sea.
A big if ...
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I would anticipate a Portuguese led inquiry with witnesses from the UK and Spain being called to testify. Those of us who have followed the case extremely closely are very aware that there is a criminal case to answer beyond Maddie's disappearance and that my friend is what worries some the most.
Aw angelo, do tell.
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Aw angelo, do tell.
Metodo 3 and Correia. In as much as who tasked them, who were they answering to and who paid them to undertake criminal activities???
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A PT Public Enquiry into the PJ's handling of the initial investigation, the breaches of judicial secrecy etc would have been a very good idea IMO. Do they go in for that sort of thing in Portugal though?
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A PT Public Enquiry into the PJ's handling of the initial investigation, the breaches of judicial secrecy etc would have been a very good idea IMO. Do they go in for that sort of thing in Portugal though?
Seemingly not. Officers get "promoted" elsewhere, or take "sabbaticals".
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A PT Public Enquiry into the PJ's handling of the initial investigation, the breaches of judicial secrecy etc would have been a very good idea IMO. Do they go in for that sort of thing in Portugal though?
The office of the Public Prosecutor has wide ranging powers in Portugal, an alternative to a full blown Legal Inquiry would be for the Prosecutor to extend the terms and scope of the current investigation to include those additional issues. He would then have the justification to compel witnesses to attend for examination and/or to undertake any reconstitution.
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The office of the Public Prosecutor has wide ranging powers in Portugal, an alternative to a full blown Legal Inquiry would be for the Prosecutor to extend the terms and scope of the current investigation to include those additional issues. He would then have the justification to compel witnesses to attend for examination and/or to undertake any reconstitution.
Which articles of the PT criminal process code are you referring to, John?
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The office of the Public Prosecutor has wide ranging powers in Portugal, an alternative to a full blown Legal Inquiry would be for the Prosecutor to extend the terms and scope of the current investigation to include those additional issues. He would then have the justification to compel witnesses to attend for examination and/or to undertake any reconstitution.
are you saying he would have the power to compel the tapas group to return...If so why didn't he use the powers in the first place
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What did they lie about davel? Maddies DNA could very well have been in the hire car 8(0(*
there was no 100% match
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Then there is the dogs and we all know what Mr Grime said about those alerts.
I don't think you do..perhaps you could remind us
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A public inquiry in which jurisdiction?
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It not going to happen in the UK while OG is on the go.
It is not going to happen in Portugal while the JP is actively pursuing a route quite independent of OG.
The idea that the Portuguese should fund an enquiry (or similar exercise), hauling in people from the UK, Ireland(?) and Spain, in order to find out if Metodo 3 or similar broke Portuguese laws - it just isn't going to happen. The idea that they should pay for an enquiry into the use of money from the Madeleine fund - it just isn't going to happen.
Until you've got a clear idea of who is enquiring about what, then the answer to the OP is a simple no.
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It certainly is a conundrum but not an unsurmountable one. Justice requires that all issues should be fully investigated regardless of the consequences.
The owners and operatives of the criminal Metodo 3 organisation and Oakley International must be properly investigated.
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more importantly...maddie's disappearance should be properly investigated...though some want to see that stopped
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It certainly is a conundrum but not an unsurmountable one. Justice requires that all issues should be fully investigated regardless of the consequences.
The owners and operatives of the criminal Metodo 3 organisation and Oakley International must be properly investigated.
By whom at who's cost?
Feb 2015 unemployment rates. UK 5.7%. Portugal 14.1%.
Better things to spend money on.
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It certainly is a conundrum but not an unsurmountable one. Justice requires that all issues should be fully investigated regardless of the consequences.
The owners and operatives of the criminal Metodo 3 organisation and Oakley International must be properly investigated.
why?
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more importantly...maddie's disappearance should be properly investigated...though some want to see that stopped
It has been investigated.
No trace of Madeleine or what happened to her has been found.
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It has been investigated.
No trace of Madeleine or what happened to her has been found.
the investigation isn't finished
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the investigation isn't finished
It hasn't found a thing of value.
Just wait until the election is over and we will see how much longer the 'investigation' continues for.
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It hasn't found a thing of value.
Just wait until the election is over and we will see how much longer the 'investigation' continues for.
It won't bother me in the slightest if they end the investigation and say they have found nothing...
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It certainly is a conundrum but not an unsurmountable one. Justice requires that all issues should be fully investigated regardless of the consequences.
The owners and operatives of the criminal Metodo 3 organisation and Oakley International must be properly investigated.
I would expect them to say they did what they were hired to do. They certainly produced a lot of paper relating to whatever they did.
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It certainly is a conundrum but not an unsurmountable one. Justice requires that all issues should be fully investigated regardless of the consequences.
The owners and operatives of the criminal Metodo 3 organisation and Oakley International must be properly investigated.
Halligen has just come out of jail for other issues. It's not clear to me if Exton is indeed the person who blabbed to the media. If so, I hope he has a source of income that doesn't rely on discretion.
I'm not aware of what Metodo 3 have done wrong in this case.
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Halligen has just come out of jail for other issues. It's not clear to me if Exton is indeed the person who blabbed to the media. If so, I hope he has a source of income that doesn't rely on discretion.
I'm not aware of what Metodo 3 have done wrong in this case.
I believe we covered this at length previously.
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I believe we covered this at length previously.
No doubt, as just about everything already has been. The M3 guy should never have been so optimistic about getting her home by Christmas. I'd agree that that wasn't helpful.
I'm more interested in Oakley and Exton's alleged revelations... in a profession in which discretion is supposedly your main quality / skill. &%+((£
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SY were brought into review the case. Apart from the press, who ever thought they were going to arrest anyone? charge them ?
You can tell by the response of the supporters that Team McCann would hate the very idea of one.
They tried to extradite someone from Gozo /Malta didn't they? But the powers-that-be in Malta prevented it
Strange that they could over rule the earlier requests of other countries put out before their much more minor offence of supposedly finding child pornography on the his computer.
IIRC he was wanted in NZ , Oz, and the UK
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They tried to extradite someone from Gozo /Malta didn't they? But the powers-that-be in Malta prevented it
Strange that they could over rule the earlier requests of other countries put out before their much more minor offence of supposedly finding child pornography on the his computer.
IIRC he was wanted in NZ , Oz, and the UK
Yes, but Sadie, they need evidence to arrest and charge people. Unless there is a confession, what else is there? You also need hard evidence to have someone extradited.
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I think the provenance that an inquiry into the handling of Madeleine McCann's case by the PJ was certainly warranted at the time is that when the case was reviewed there were found to be so many avenues for investigation which had not been pursued at the time.
The incompetence of the initial investigation certainly warranted an internal inquiry ... which perhaps happened to an extent if Goncalo Amaral's dismissal from the case is anything to go by.
The disgrace of the press disinformation campaign the content of which remains meat and drink to those who have maintained the hounding of Madeleine's family over nearly eight years, certainly merited being addressed at the time, as it was to a degree when the British press apologised and paid for their foul misrepresentation.
Although not wiping out the witch hunts of the past the more recent developments in Madeleine McCann's case have moved the goalposts for the current witch hunts and have shown them for the marginalised self misinformed vehicles they are.
Sure thing an International inquiry into the handling of Madeleine's case is warranted ... but how stupid would it be to divert from the reopened cases in Portugal and Britain?
We are where we should have been in 2007 ... and nothing could mitigate that fact.
I think lessons have been learned and I think there is a spirit of co-operation between the forces of both countries which was absent when Goncalo Amaral deployed limited resources to spy on his British opposite numbers in 2007.
I doubt if a spokesperson today would feel the need to reiterate what in April 2008, the family spokesman said ...
**snip
Mitchell said the PJ's performance meant the time had come for an "international inquiry" into their handling of the Madeleine case. "What we want is not just an investigation of this latest leak, but a much wider inquiry into their conduct.
"It's the sort of thing that could be done peer to peer - maybe by officers from Europol, someone senior from Scotland Yard, or the FBI. It's not about blame, but learning the necessary lessons."
It is an extraordinary demand, born of exasperation, which is certain to be resisted in Portugal.
Yet an examination by The Mail on Sunday of the PJ's record --not only in its failure to find Madeleine, but in the previous two Algarve cases where children have disappeared or been murdered - suggests it may well be justified.
"You have to remember: until 1974 Portugal was a dictatorship," said a veteran Algarve journalist, who asked not to be named. "That was the climate in which the PJ was created. Their methods were pretty rough."
**snip
In the Portuguese criminal justice system, confessions are still regarded as they were in the days of the Inquisition - as the "queen of proofs".
British police, it has to be said, sometimes used to operate in a similar way.
But it has its drawbacks, as shown by the succession of miscarriages of justice based on false confessions, such as the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six IRA cases.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-560696/Madeleine-The-damning-case-police-Britains-investigative-reporter.html#ixzz3QpTyTc47
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An excellent post Brietta, it is always a help to be reminded of what has been previously stated.
I very much agree with an international inquiry of sorts but I also agreed that the Portuguese are not about to bare their souls or put their heads on the chopping block.
Mores the pity because by refusing such an inquiry they will have denied justice to Madeleine.
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I think the provenance that an inquiry into the handling of Madeleine McCann's case by the PJ was certainly warranted at the time is that when the case was reviewed there were found to be so many avenues for investigation which had not been pursued at the time.
The incompetence of the initial investigation certainly warranted an internal inquiry ... which perhaps happened to an extent if Goncalo Amaral's dismissal from the case is anything to go by.
The disgrace of the press disinformation campaign the content of which remains meat and drink to those who have maintained the hounding of Madeleine's family over nearly eight years, certainly merited being addressed at the time, as it was to a degree when the British press apologised and paid for their foul misrepresentation.
Although not wiping out the witch hunts of the past the more recent developments in Madeleine McCann's case have moved the goalposts for the current witch hunts and have shown them for the marginalised self misinformed vehicles they are.
Sure thing an International inquiry into the handling of Madeleine's case is warranted ... but how stupid would it be to divert from the reopened cases in Portugal and Britain?
We are where we should have been in 2007 ... and nothing could mitigate that fact.
I think lessons have been learned and I think there is a spirit of co-operation between the forces of both countries which was absent when Goncalo Amaral deployed limited resources to spy on his British opposite numbers in 2007.
I doubt if a spokesperson today would feel the need to reiterate what in April 2008, the family spokesman said ...
**snip
Mitchell said the PJ's performance meant the time had come for an "international inquiry" into their handling of the Madeleine case. "What we want is not just an investigation of this latest leak, but a much wider inquiry into their conduct.
"It's the sort of thing that could be done peer to peer - maybe by officers from Europol, someone senior from Scotland Yard, or the FBI. It's not about blame, but learning the necessary lessons."
It is an extraordinary demand, born of exasperation, which is certain to be resisted in Portugal.
Yet an examination by The Mail on Sunday of the PJ's record --not only in its failure to find Madeleine, but in the previous two Algarve cases where children have disappeared or been murdered - suggests it may well be justified.
"You have to remember: until 1974 Portugal was a dictatorship," said a veteran Algarve journalist, who asked not to be named. "That was the climate in which the PJ was created. Their methods were pretty rough."
**snip
In the Portuguese criminal justice system, confessions are still regarded as they were in the days of the Inquisition - as the "queen of proofs".
British police, it has to be said, sometimes used to operate in a similar way.
But it has its drawbacks, as shown by the succession of miscarriages of justice based on false confessions, such as the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six IRA cases.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-560696/Madeleine-The-damning-case-police-Britains-investigative-reporter.html#ixzz3QpTyTc47
Good post Brietta. However when you have a situation where a court decides that a person was tortured inside a police station - and no-one is identified and no-one loses their job at that police station - one wonders how keen the authorities are to investigate their own.
However, recent prosecutions and arrests do give hope that attitudes have begun to change for the better.
IMO Portugal is in the same place the UK police were in - 40 odd years ago - when IIRC a policeman's word was routinely taken over Joe Bloggs word as gospel - by our courts.
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By whom at who's cost?
Feb 2015 unemployment rates. UK 5.7%. Portugal 14.1%.
Better things to spend money on.
Justice requires that this entire sordid affair be fully investigated. As it stands at the moment Amaral is the fall guy. There are events surrounding the employment of Marcos Correia and Metodo 3 which some individuals would prefer to keep buried.
I don't care if it is a public enquiry or a criminal inquiry but certain people have some serious questions still to answer!
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Justice requires that this entire sordid affair be fully investigated. As it stands at the moment Amaral is the fall guy. There are events surrounding the employment if Marcos Correia and Metodo 3 which some individuals would prefer to keep buried.
I don't care if it is a public enquiry or a criminal inquiry but certain people have some serious questions still to answer!
justice requires that the mccanns are considered innocent....it seems justice only interests you when it suits your agenda
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Justice requires that this entire sordid affair be fully investigated. As it stands at the moment Amaral is the fall guy. There are events surrounding the employment of Marcos Correia and Metodo 3 which some individuals would prefer to keep buried.
I don't care if it is a public enquiry or a criminal inquiry but certain people have some serious questions still to answer!
I would support a public enquiry so long as it was based on presumption of innocence and interviews were carried out under PACE, and evidence was admitted only under usual judges rules.
No problem.
It would almost certainly declare that no final conclusion could be reached.
Which is my persistent insistence.
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justice requires that the mccanns are considered innocent....it seems justice only interests you when it suits your agenda
Hogwash davel. There is an untold story here which I for one desire to see fully investigated.
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I would support a public enquiry so long as it was based on presumption of innocence and interviews were carried out under PACE, and evidence was admitted only under usual judges rules.
No problem.
It would almost certainly declare that no final conclusion could be reached.
Which is my persistent insistence.
Pace?? Let's not introduce British protocols into what would be a Portuguese criminal inquiry.
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Pace?? Let's not introduce British protocols into what would be a Portuguese criminal inquiry.
Or under Portuguese Law.
The outcome would be unlikely to be different.
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I can't see a public inquiry ever happening nor do I see the interest of one taking place in the public arena. In any case, which jurisdiction would oversee such a thing?
More useful and more likely (IMO) would be internal inquiries and hopefully sharing the reports with each other in order to improve best practice.
Portugal may have quietly conducted one: few, if any, members of the former Algarve Maddie squad appear to be still working there. A component of their review may well have involved examining internal issues.
UK police forces are quite capable of conducting their own and probably already have done. There was a conference agenda paper floating around the Internet at some point, but it may have been taken down as I can't find it.
On the agenda of various topics was an item concerning input from the UK to an overseas police convention on lessons learned in international police cooperation, using two cases - one of which was the McCann one.
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A previous poster pointed out the dire economic situation in Portugal and suggested that money would be better spent elsewhere.
That is a fair point but what price do you set on justice?
Does the Anglo Portuguese Society still influence events?
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A previous poster pointed out the dire economic situation in Portugal and suggested that money would be better spent elsewhere.
That is a fair point but what price do you set on justice?
Honest internal reviews aimed at improving best practice are an investment for the future. Nothing says that such reviews haven't already taken place.
If the concept is one in which a certain ex-solicitor submits yet another shopping trolleyful of useless "research", which someone is then expected to read and debate then, yes, that would be a total waste of the resources of both countries.
A public inquiry might be fascinating entertainment for forumites, but the mere fact of being held in public could well hinder a frank assessment out of concerns for diplomacy, thus somewhat defeating the objective.
No one knows what the scoping exercise actually involved, but Gamble has mentioned that various UK LE agencies tripping over themselves in an attempt to assist wasn't necessarily best practice and could have bewildered and overwhelmed the PJ.
An internal PJ review may involve more of a strategic overhaul involving more components than just the handling of the McCann case. PT does seem to be moving forward, despite the recession, and I wish them all the best.
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Honest internal reviews aimed at improving best practice are an investment for the future. Nothing says that such reviews haven't already taken place.
If the concept is one in which a certain ex-solicitor submits yet another shopping trolleyful of useless "research", which someone is then expected to read and debate then, yes, that would be a total waste of the resources of both countries.
A public inquiry might be fascinating entertainment for forumites, but the mere fact of being held in public could well hinder a frank assessment out of concerns for diplomacy, thus somewhat defeating the objective.
No one knows what the scoping exercise actually involved, but Gamble has mentioned that various UK LE agencies tripping over themselves in an attempt to assist wasn't necessarily best practice and could have bewildered and overwhelmed the PJ.
An internal PJ review may involve more of a strategic overhaul involving more components than just the handling of the McCann case. PT does seem to be moving forward, despite the recession, and I wish them all the best.
It would be interesting to know who in the UK has a vested interest in having this entire episode disappear just like Madeleine?
Who is pulling the strings at SY?
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It would be interesting to know who in the UK has a vested interest in having this entire episode disappear just like Madeleine?
Who is pulling the strings at SY?
It would be interesting IF it could be shown to be the case.
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It would be interesting to know who in the UK has a vested interest in having this entire episode disappear just like Madeleine?
Who is pulling the strings at SY?
Which episode are you referring to? And what has it disappeared from?
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It would be interesting to know who in the UK has a vested interest in having this entire episode disappear just like Madeleine?
Who is pulling the strings at SY?
The case is unprecedented certainly. The amount of involvement by UK police, legal people and the media was staggering. Whether it was all accidental or not isn't known, but a lot of people suspect it wasn't. One of the reasons people are suspicious of the parents is the amount of help they were given, which hasn't been seen in any other missing child cases. The review being launched with a restricted remit just added fuel to the fire. Whether an inquiry would answer questions such as John's above, who knows?
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The case is unprecedented certainly. The amount of involvement by UK police, legal people and the media was staggering. Whether it was all accidental or not isn't known, but a lot of people suspect it wasn't. One of the reasons people are suspicious of the parents is the amount of help they were given, which hasn't been seen in any other missing child cases. The review being launched with a restricted remit just added fuel to the fire. Whether an inquiry would answer questions such as John's above, who knows?
I just don't get why this is a cause for suspicion, unless you believe in some great establishment cover up...?
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It would be interesting to know who in the UK has a vested interest in having this entire episode disappear just like Madeleine?
Who is pulling the strings at SY?
It's the PM's investigation, and we know what he thinks. There's really no mystery.
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It's the PM's investigation, and we know what he thinks. There's really no mystery.
The question endures, why this case and not the others like that of Ben Needham?
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It's the PM's investigation, and we know what he thinks. There's really no mystery.
Now let's see. It didn't start with the current PM, did it?
People criticised Blair's support, then Gordon Brown's.
There were screeches of left-wing mutual back-scratching and a call for a right-wing government to end the perceived "coverup".
Cameron comes to power and supports a review.
There may have been PR brownie points in it for all of them, but at the end of the day a vulnerable British subject is missing, whereabouts unknown.
Supporting international cooperation and being seen to do so would appear to transcend mainstream party politics.
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Now let's see. It didn't start with the current PM, did it?
People criticised Blair's support, then Gordon Brown's.
There were screeches of left-wing mutual back-scratching and a call for a right-wing government to end the perceived "coverup".
Cameron comes to power and supports a review.
There may have been PR brownie points in it for all of them, but at the end of the day a vulnerable British subject is missing, whereabouts unknown.
Supporting international cooperation and being seen to do so would appear to transcend mainstream party politics.
Did I say he did it for PR reasons? It would have been difficult to say no to Brooks but I don't doubt his sincerity about what he's said he believes happened to Madeleine.
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The question endures, why this case and not the others like that of Ben Needham?
Kerry doesn't have a huge lobby behind her unfortunately. So many additional years have passed also in that case, which make it much more difficult for that family.
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Now let's see. It didn't start with the current PM, did it?
People criticised Blair's support, then Gordon Brown's.
There were screeches of left-wing mutual back-scratching and a call for a right-wing government to end the perceived "coverup".
Cameron comes to power and supports a review.
There may have been PR brownie points in it for all of them, but at the end of the day a vulnerable British subject is missing, whereabouts unknown.
Supporting international cooperation and being seen to do so would appear to transcend mainstream party politics.
Two very important issues there, Carana, it seems that Madeleine McCann is considered more a football to be kicked around in support of debating points than the fact she is a vulnerable British subject who has gone missing abroad.
Truly remarkable that those who pay lip service to "justice" for her seem to be the most vociferously opposed to any effort to find her.
The cooperation between the PJ and SY can only be of benefit ... in the first instance to Madeleine McCann's case ... but also in any future case which requires working with officers from a foreign jurisdiction with differing cultural imperatives.
I think both forces will have worked at their differences and I think it is something which will continue to be exploited in all sorts of cases with a common interest for both countries.
Although Madeleine McCann is at the heart of the present case ... I think there is also a huge spin off from it which will encourage international crime to beware. It is worth remembering the British children who were assaulted with apparent impunity, perhaps those crimes will be properly addressed also.
Why should anyone who objects to the cost of Operation Grange ... wish to have an expensive public inquiry at this stage in proceedings? Cui bono?
**Snipped ... JAMES MURRAY 00:01, Sun, May 10, 2015
It is my firm belief that Home Secretary Theresa May should resist those demands because it seems the truth is finally beginning to emerge.
Grange officers have at last established a proper, professional working relationship with their Portuguese counterparts which is producing results. Certain people have been identified and interviewed.
Their alibis and their reactions are being scrutinised as never before. Some have been cleared of any involvement but probes into others continue. One of the greatest achievements of the Grange team has been detailed analysis of phone records, showing roughly who was active on networks at key times on the evening of May 3, 2007, in the Algarve resort.
Portuguese officers, guided by Grange detectives, are now in a position to ask people what they were doing in Praia da Luz during that evening and why did they call or text so and so?
Layers and layers of wrong leads and useless information have now been peeled away, allowing officers to concentrate on the core facts.
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/576139/EXPRESS-COMMENT-We-must-never-give-up-on-Maddy
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The question endures, why this case and not the others like that of Ben Needham?
Because it happened in the era of 24/7 rolling news reports and the internet?
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Two very important issues there, Carana, it seems that Madeleine McCann is considered more a football to be kicked around in support of debating points than the fact she is a vulnerable British subject who has gone missing abroad.
Truly remarkable that those who pay lip service to "justice" for her seem to be the most vociferously opposed to any effort to find her.
The cooperation between the PJ and SY can only be of benefit ... in the first instance to Madeleine McCann's case ... but also in any future case which requires working with officers from a foreign jurisdiction with differing cultural imperatives.
I think both forces will have worked at their differences and I think it is something which will continue to be exploited in all sorts of cases with a common interest for both countries.
Although Madeleine McCann is at the heart of the present case ... I think there is also a huge spin off from it which will encourage international crime to beware. It is worth remembering the British children who were assaulted with apparent impunity, perhaps those crimes will be properly addressed also.
Why should anyone who objects to the cost of Operation Grange ... wish to have an expensive public inquiry at this stage in proceedings? Cui bono?
**Snipped ... JAMES MURRAY 00:01, Sun, May 10, 2015
It is my firm belief that Home Secretary Theresa May should resist those demands because it seems the truth is finally beginning to emerge.
Grange officers have at last established a proper, professional working relationship with their Portuguese counterparts which is producing results. Certain people have been identified and interviewed.
Their alibis and their reactions are being scrutinised as never before. Some have been cleared of any involvement but probes into others continue. One of the greatest achievements of the Grange team has been detailed analysis of phone records, showing roughly who was active on networks at key times on the evening of May 3, 2007, in the Algarve resort.
Portuguese officers, guided by Grange detectives, are now in a position to ask people what they were doing in Praia da Luz during that evening and why did they call or text so and so?
Layers and layers of wrong leads and useless information have now been peeled away, allowing officers to concentrate on the core facts.
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/576139/EXPRESS-COMMENT-We-must-never-give-up-on-Maddy
We're on the same wavelength.
My only point - regarding Jim Gamble's piece - is that the lessons regarding better practice may well be mutual.
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The question endures, why this case and not the others like that of Ben Needham?
SY probably think somebody(s) getting away with murder and it has to be closed once and for all.
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We're on the same wavelength.
My only point - regarding Jim Gamble's piece - is that the lessons regarding better practice may well be mutual.
I agree ... I think the only way such a working relationship could be maintained would be a mutual respect and I imagine one side has as much to contribute as the other.
I think, as noted in James Murray's article, everything keeps on coming back to issues which were overlooked by the initial investigation and the concentration on the assumption that there was no need to look further than Madeleine's parents and their friends.
Nothing exemplifies that more than the cursory attention given the available information on the telephone calls, with as can be seen from the files, the exception of Robert Murat and his associates and the McCanns and their friends.
Even so, I doubt if a public inquiry either here or in Portugal would cast any more light on that since the PJ and SY have already gone into the matter in fine detail.
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Did I say he did it for PR reasons? It would have been difficult to say no to Brooks but I don't doubt his sincerity about what he's said he believes happened to Madeleine.
What he believes is no real good reason just because he is PM. Now let's look at this from a different angle. who are the major players here?
Murdoch- Brooks. media moguls who win elections...maybe that is the Politicians favoured interest?
Murdoch has made millions from Maddie....hmm you thinking what I am thinking? Murdoch says jump they scream how high? well, anyway.. It is HOME OFFICE MONEY which is weird because this is a police investigation? unless there is a national security risk?..
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What he believes is no real good reason just because he is PM. Now let's look at this from a different angle. who are the major players here?
Murdoch- Brooks. media moguls who win elections...maybe that is the Politicians favoured interest?
Murdoch has made millions from Maddie....hmm you thinking what I am thinking? Murdoch says jump they scream how high? well, anyway.. It is HOME OFFICE MONEY which is weird because this is a police investigation? unless there is a national security risk?..
&%+((£ Who are the main players? &%+((£
I think the most obvious one may very well be a girl called Madeleine McCann ... remember her? She is the child you want everyone to stop looking for despite your desire for truth an justice for her. Funny that.
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&%+((£ Who are the main players? &%+((£
I think the most obvious one may very well be a girl called Madeleine McCann ... remember her? She is the child you want everyone to stop looking for despite your desire for truth an justice for her. Funny that.
Little Maddie in NOT a major player here. I will tell you why, you may not like the answer but hey you are a big girl let's go for it.
She had no say in her upbringing- she challenged her parents regarding their evenings leaving them alone, she must have been frightened- she was crually ignored. That whole story has been played down by you and many others. Maddie tried to protect herself and her siblings by letting her mother know they woke up crying.
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Little Maddie in NOT a major player here. I will tell you why, you may not like the answer but hey you are a big girl let's go for it.
She had no say in her upbringing- she challenged her parents regarding their evenings leaving them alone, she must have been frightened- she was crually ignored. That whole story has been played down by you and many others. Maddie tried to protect herself and her siblings by letting her mother know they woke up crying.
Madeleine McCann is missing ...
The police are looking for her ...
There are those who object vociferously to that ...
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Madeleine McCann is missing ...
The police are looking for her ...
There are those who object vociferously to that ...
Yes indeed they are! and I am not one of them! So kindly refrain from implying I am part of a ha ting group who you follow around looking for negative PR.
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Madeleine McCann is missing ...
The police are looking for her ...
There are those who object vociferously to that ...
She has been looked for , for 8 years, with no result.
One has to ask why people such as yourself keep wanting tax payers money spent on an investigation going nowhere.
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She has been looked for , for 8 years, with no result.
One has to ask why people such as yourself keep wanting tax payers money spent on an investigation going nowhere.
One has to ask why there are people who want a Public Inquiry to disrupt the very difficult work involved in the search for a little girl who went missing eight years ago.
Are you one of them?
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One has to ask why there are people who want a Public Inquiry to disrupt the very difficult work involved in the search for a little girl who went missing eight years ago.
Are you one of them?
Some people dont want Madeleine found, Brietta. It would expose their hitherto whiter than white orgisation.
And cause them to lose millions illicitly "earned"
Am not saying that Stephen is one of them.
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What about a Public Inquiry into the disappearances of Ben Needham and Claudia Lawrence while we're at it? Or don't they deserve one?
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What about a Public Inquiry into the disappearances of Ben Needham and Claudia Lawrence while we're at it? Or don't they deserve one?
Good question. Why not post it on the relevent threads this one is about:Does the Madeleine McCann case warrant a Public Inquiry?
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One has to ask why there are people who want a Public Inquiry to disrupt the very difficult work involved in the search for a little girl who went missing eight years ago.
Are you one of them?
Nothing has been found.
SY's investigation has merely wasted public money, with zero results to show for it.
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Some people dont want Madeleine found, Brietta. It would expose their hitherto whiter than white orgisation.
And cause them to lose millions illicitly "earned"
Am not saying that Stephen is one of them.
I hate to disappoint you sadie, but I only post here on my own volition, and nothing to do with mysterious organizations.
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Back to topic:
Re: Does the Madeleine McCann case warrant a Public Inquiry?
If so why? If not, why not?
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Back to topic:
Re: Does the Madeleine McCann case warrant a Public Inquiry?
If so why? If not, why not?
A Public Enquiry about what? The disastrous Portuguese Investigation? Not really our business. So what else is there to enquire about.
I did get some hint that certain Folks think this would drag The McCanns into Court to answer questions. But that won't wash because The McCanns aren't obliged to answer anything at this stage. And almost certainly never will be.
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Back to topic:
Re: Does the Madeleine McCann case warrant a Public Inquiry?
If so why? If not, why not?
In my view there should be a full public inquiry or whatever passes for one in Portugal because there is a very big question mark over the whole Metodo 3/ Correia/ Cipriano/Amaral affair and the involvement of the Madeleine Fund in paying for it all.
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A Public Enquiry about what? The disastrous Portuguese Investigation? Not really our business. So what else is there to enquire about.
I did get some hint that certain Folks think this would drag The McCanns into Court to answer questions. But that won't wash because The McCanns aren't obliged to answer anything at this stage. And almost certainly never will be.
Well I for one believe they have questions to answer in Portugal and what's more, it doesn't relate to Madeleine.
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Well I for one believe they have questions to answer in Portugal and what's more, it doesn't relate to Madeleine.
Could you elucidate please, Angelo?
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Could you elucidate please, Angelo?
Anyone who has followed this case since the start and who also is aware of the dirty dealings in the Cipriano case will be suspicious that Madeleine Fund money was used for many more things than looking for Madeleine.
An inquiry would get to the bottom of the criminal involvement of Metodo 3 in the attempt to smear Amaral and most importantly, who paid for it and who ordered it.
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Anyone who has followed this case since the start and who also is aware of the dirty dealings in the Cipriano case will be suspicious that Madeleine Fund money was used for many more things than looking for Madeleine.
An inquiry would get to the bottom of the criminal involvement of Metodo 3 in the attempt to smear Amaral and most importantly, who paid for it and who ordered it.
I don't think Amaral needs much help in that direction........
Remind me - when was he made an Arguido?
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I don't think Amaral needs much help in that direction........
Remind me - when was he made an Arguido?
So two wrongs make a right in your book?
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So two wrongs make a right in your book?
Of course not, but I was merely pointing out that Amaral was already up to his neck in things long before he had even heard of the McCanns or Metodo 3.
I am aware that there have been rumours - but do you have any actual facts to support your concerns
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In my view there should be a full public inquiry or whatever passes for one in Portugal because there is a very big question mark over the whole Metodo 3/ Correia/ Cipriano/Amaral affair and the involvement of the Madeleine Fund in paying for it all.
I have met Marcos Corriea .... and whilst I cannot guarentee it, it is my understanding that he worked pro bono.
Maybe someone else on here can confirm that?
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I have met Marcos Corriea .... and whilst I cannot guarentee it, it is my understanding that he worked pro bono.
Maybe someone else on here can confirm that?
You're having a laugh surely Sadie? Pro bono @)(++(*
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I have met Marcos Corriea .... and whilst I cannot guarentee it, it is my understanding that he worked pro bono.
Maybe someone else on here can confirm that?
Coming after your little Moroccan girl is Maddie claims that must be taken with a tiny pinch of salt. 8)--))
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Of course not, but I was merely pointing out that Amaral was already up to his neck in things long before he had even heard of the McCanns or Metodo 3.
I am aware that there have been rumours - but do you have any actual facts to support your concerns
A proper inquiry would get to the bottom of this once and for all with Fund directors being compelled to give evidence.
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A proper inquiry would get to the bottom of this once and for all with Fund directors being compelled to give evidence.
An inquiry aside, there is enough evidence available which should have allowed the Portuguese Police to carry out a parallel investigation into Metodo 3 and Marcos Correia and their funding. I suspect however that Amarals prosecution for altering official police records has tainted their ability to do this with the transparency it deserves.
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An inquiry aside, there is enough evidence available which should have allowed the Portuguese Police to carry out a parallel investigation into Metodo 3 and Marcos Correia and their funding. I suspect however that Amarals prosecution for altering official police records has tainted their ability to do this with the transparency it deserves.
Perhaps the new PJ has done, but what for?
I find it plausible that M3 paid Correia's expenses to be interviewed when he erupted onto the scene (which, from memory, was when he was threatening to sue the postal services for not having delivered a recorded delivery letter to the McCanns... or something) and possibly to interview João Cipriano (as he was a lawyer) in case he had any useful infomation connecting Joana's disappearance to Madeleine's...
And that's about the limit of what sounds plausible to me...
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A proper inquiry would get to the bottom of this once and for all with Fund directors being compelled to give evidence.
What do you mean by "a proper inquiry"? Led by whom and what for?
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Perhaps the new PJ has done, but what for?
I find it plausible that M3 paid Correia's expenses to be interviewed when he erupted onto the scene (which, from memory, was when he was threatening to sue the postal services for not having delivered a recorded delivery letter to the McCanns... or something) and possibly to interview João Cipriano (as he was a lawyer) in case he had any useful infomation connecting Joana's disappearance to Madeleine's...
And that's about the limit of what sounds plausible to me...
There is a money trail associated with the McCanns right down to Correia and lawyer John Grade was good enough to fill in those extra blanks you conveniently forget to mention.
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What do you mean by "a proper inquiry"? Led by whom and what for?
My notion of a proper inquiry would be one which has sufficient far reaching powers to look into the finances of all those involved in this conspiracy because on so many levels this was a conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice.
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There is a money trail associated with the McCanns right down to Correia and lawyer John Grade was good enough to fill in those extra blanks you conveniently forget to mention.
João Grade? Cite, please?
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My notion of a proper inquiry would be one which has sufficient far reaching powers to look into the finances of all those involved in this conspiracy because on so many levels this was a conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice.
What libellous nonsense are you spouting now?
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João Grade? Cite, please?
Its all there in the Cipriano board, I suggest you search it.
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What libellous nonsense are you spouting now?
Truth is not libel. A full blown police enquiry into all the activities of these Spanish criminals masquerading as private investigators is long overdue as is the Oakley International one. Why has the Oakley dossier never been made public? Who has got so much to hide?
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Truth is not libel. A full blown police enquiry into all the activities of these Spanish criminals masquerading as private investigators is long overdue.
the fact that it is not happening shows how unimportant it is. Portugal has enough fraud trials at the moment with Socrates, christaveo and god knows who else
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Its all there in the Cipriano board, I suggest you search it.
A clue, perhaps, to a source that doesn't come from a tabloid / blog of dubious repute?
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A clue, perhaps, to a source that doesn't come from a tabloid / blog of dubious repute?
That's the point isn't it, let's have the police investigate them all and get to the truth of it. If the Correio da Manha is printing lies then they can be dealt with too.
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Truth is not libel. A full blown police enquiry into all the activities of these Spanish criminals masquerading as private investigators is long overdue as is the Oakley International one. Why has the Oakley dossier never been made public? Who has got so much to hide?
Your previous post seemed to be implicating the directors of the Madeleine Fund - are you saying they are involved in some conspiracy?
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In case anyone missed it.
Extract from SIC magazine
15 February 2009
Leonor Cipriano was defended during the entire PJ torture investigation by the lawyer João Grade dos Santos but, "on the eve of the start of trial, the client waived the services of the lawyer,"
Acting on behalf of the McCanns, Método 3, tried to recruit Leonor Cipriano's lawyer, João Grade dos Santos, explaining that his help would be very helpful to their investigations, given the similarities between the two cases. Método 3 stated that "spending money was no problem" and pulled to the fore the theme "Gonçalo Amaral". Only months later, having already refused to work for the Spanish agency, Grade realized that Método 3 had their own "agenda". This "agenda" was, according to SIC, to get a lawyer to put Gonçalo Amaral "out of operation", since, in both cases, the detective seemed to want the same: the culpability of the parents.
Faced with the refusal of João Grade dos Santos, Método 3 approached another lawyer - the young Marcos Aragão Correia, who came to participate in searches of Madeleine as a medium and subsequently became involved in investigations related to the Joana case, eventually being engaged to defend Leonor Cipriano in the trial against the five inspectors from Faro.
Read it for yourself here.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3500.msg133640#msg133640
Detective agency who sought Maddie recruited attorney to "burn" Gonçalo Amaral in the case Joana Cipriano.
www.translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&nv=1&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djo%25C3%25A3o%2Bgrade%2Bdos%2Bsantos%26client%3Dms-opera-mobile%26channel%3Dnew&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pt-BR&u=http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/agencia-de-detectives-que-procurou-maddie-recrutou-advogado-para-queimar-goncalo-amaral-no-caso-joana-cipriano-1365298&usg=ALkJrhhJNIHRHgclmFddOk-JmvQpgK448w
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My notion of a proper inquiry would be one which has sufficient far reaching powers to look into the finances of all those involved in this conspiracy because on so many levels this was a conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice.
- What conspiracy?
- To defeat justice about what?
Surely not the "truth" as asserted by a former coordinator in the first months of the investigation who appears to have "misunderstood" or "forgotten" details about just about every major point in the investigation... and that during his tenure, let alone following the final analysis after the files were released?
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In case anyone missed it.
Extract from SIC magazine
15 February 2009
Leonor Cipriano was defended during the entire PJ torture investigation by the lawyer João Grade dos Santos but, "on the eve of the start of trial, the client waived the services of the lawyer,"
Acting on behalf of the McCanns, Método 3, tried to recruit Leonor Cipriano's lawyer, João Grade dos Santos, explaining that his help would be very helpful to their investigations, given the similarities between the two cases. Método 3 stated that "spending money was no problem" and pulled the fore the theme "Gonçalo Amaral". Only months later, having already refused to work for the Spanish agency, Grade realized that Método 3 had their own "agenda". This "agenda" was, according to SIC, to get a lawyer to put Gonçalo Amaral "out of operation", since, in both cases, the detective seemed to want the same: the culpability of the parents.
Faced with the refusal of João Grade dos Santos, Método 3 approached another lawyer - the young Marcos Aragão Correia, who came to participate in searches of Madeleine as a medium and subsequently became involved in investigations related to the Joana case, eventually being engaged to defend Leonor Cipriano in the trial against the five inspectors from Faro.
Read it for yourself here.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3500.msg133640#msg133640
Out of interest why are you, as a moderator, deliberately avoiding the swear filter on this forum in order to write an "offensive" word? Why have you chosen to have a dig at the mother of a missing child with every single post you make?
ETA - when I chose Tucking Fosser as my sig line it was removed because it was "offensive" - such double standards are hard to understand...
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In case anyone missed it.
Extract from SIC magazine
15 February 2009
Leonor Cipriano was defended during the entire PJ torture investigation by the lawyer João Grade dos Santos but, "on the eve of the start of trial, the client waived the services of the lawyer,"
Acting on behalf of the McCanns, Método 3, tried to recruit Leonor Cipriano's lawyer, João Grade dos Santos, explaining that his help would be very helpful to their investigations, given the similarities between the two cases. Método 3 stated that "spending money was no problem" and pulled the fore the theme "Gonçalo Amaral". Only months later, having already refused to work for the Spanish agency, Grade realized that Método 3 had their own "agenda". This "agenda" was, according to SIC, to get a lawyer to put Gonçalo Amaral "out of operation", since, in both cases, the detective seemed to want the same: the culpability of the parents.
Faced with the refusal of João Grade dos Santos, Método 3 approached another lawyer - the young Marcos Aragão Correia, who came to participate in searches of Madeleine as a medium and subsequently became involved in investigations related to the Joana case, eventually being engaged to defend Leonor Cipriano in the trial against the five inspectors from Faro.
Read it for yourself here.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3500.msg133640#msg133640
I can't find any plausible reason why Correia is anything but a loose cannon.
The implication would be that he had been instructed to defend Leonor and not João... how much sense does that make?
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That's the point isn't it, let's have the police investigate them all and get to the truth of it. If the Correio da Manha is printing lies then they can be dealt with too.
How do you know that the police haven't done? Because it hasn't been leaked to tabloids?
As a well-known former coordinator has said, somewhat ironically, "justice works in secret".
You don't have a problem with that, do you, Angelo?
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I can't find any plausible reason why Correia is anything but a loose cannon.
The implication would be that he had been instructed to defend Leonor and not João... how much sense does that make?
His job was to destroy Amaral, the Ciprianos were just convenient stooges.
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His job was to destroy Amaral, the Ciprianos were just convenient stooges.
That's a loaded assumption, Angelo.
Now explain to me why not only didn't he defend João Cipriano but - by his own admission - tricked him into a confession?
The idea that the McCanns somehow orchestrated this makes no sense to me as it would be the equivalent of saying that Kate was somehow involved, but not that much, and that Gerry was the real bad guy.
Not really likely, is it?
A different point is that his view, supposedly based on his supernatural contacts or something, is that both children are dead.
Isn't the idea that Madeleine may still be alive what the McCanns have been fighting for? No one knows what happened to Joana... but as no one has been actively searching for her since Amaral appeared on the scene, that's not really surprising.
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You're having a laugh surely Sadie? Pro bono @)(++(*
I am deadly serious. I remember that he did certain work on the Madeleine case pro bono, but I am no longer sure which work.
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His job was to destroy Amaral, the Ciprianos were just convenient stooges.
Right on the mark. 8((()*/
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His job was to destroy Amaral, the Ciprianos were just convenient stooges.
I think Kate was quite right to use the words F U C K I N G T O S S E R
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Coming after your little Moroccan girl is Maddie claims that must be taken with a tiny pinch of salt. 8)--))
How shallow to dismiss the little Moroccan girl being Madeleine.
She certainly isn't Bushra Benissa.
I wonder if Bushras family are Phoenician?
BTW, Angelo, why do you feel the need to snarl at me? I have never snarled at you.
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How shallow to dismiss the little Moroccan girl being Madeleine.
She certainly isn't Bushra Benissa.
I wonder if Bushras family are Phoenician?
BTW, Angelo, why do you feel the need to snarl at me? I have never snarled at you.
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
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How shallow to dismiss the little Moroccan girl being Madeleine.
She certainly isn't Bushra Benissa.
I wonder if Bushras family are Phoenician?
BTW, Angelo, why do you feel the need to snarl at me? I have never snarled at you.
I do not know who the frightened little girl who was paraded in front of the camera was ... but imo she most certainly was not the little girl who was photographed by the tourist.
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Have you all gone raving mad? What has any of this got to do with a Public Enquiry?
I am quite shocked by the anger, although Christ knows why.
Just get back to talking about A Public Enquiry.
There are times when you all defeat me.
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Regarding the thread title, I think there will have to be a public inquiry if Operation Grange fails to result in the case being solved. If only to account for the huge expenditure.
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Madeleine has been got by the lizards. @)(++(*
Now you could be right on that one.
BTW,
Just who are the Lizards? £4%4%
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I still dont see the point of a public inquiry.
What would one offer that two open police investigations can't?
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I still dont see the point of a public inquiry.
What would one offer that two open police investigations can't?
Funny there is objection to funding for an inquiry into the case of a missing little girl ... but money is no object for a public inquiry into her case.
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Regarding the thread title, I think there will have to be a public inquiry if Operation Grange fails to result in the case being solved. If only to account for the huge expenditure.
How much do public inquiries cost? Hundreds of thousands... millions? Do you think that one is necessary to account for every investigation that hasn't resulted in a resolution? If so, how far back should one go in history? If there is only a limited amount of public funding available... should cold case reviews be abolished? Should independent police inquiries be abolished?
Under which jurisdiction should a public inquiry be held? The UK? Why? PT? Do they have such a provision?
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£4.2 million for the PI into the Stephen Lawrence case https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stephen-lawrence-madeleine-mccann-and-hillsborough-stadium-investigation-costs/stephen-lawrence-madeleine-mccann-and-hillsborough-stadium-investigation-costs
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I still dont see the point of a public inquiry.
What would one offer that two open police investigations can't?
Absolutely nothing at all. The two Police Forces are looking into The Investigation, so who want's to enquire about that? Other than some peculiar people who think it might force The Mccanns into some ill conceived Court that is never going to happen.
In the beginning they wanted The Case reopened, and now that it has been, they still aren't satisfied.
They want The McCanns hanged, drawn and quartered, regardless of total lack of evidence.
In the absence of what they wanted they now want an inquiry into why they didn't get what they wanted.
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There should definitely be an Inquiry into police incompetence and the flouting of judicial secrecy concerning this case, and it should take place in Portugal, paid for by the Portuguese taxpayers.
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How much do public inquiries cost? Hundreds of thousands... millions? Do you think that one is necessary to account for every investigation that hasn't resulted in a resolution? If so, how far back should one go in history? If there is only a limited amount of public funding available... should cold case reviews be abolished? Should independent police inquiries be abolished?
Under which jurisdiction should a public inquiry be held? The UK? Why? PT? Do they have such a provision?
An investigation was undertaken in Portugal and then archived due to lack of evidence. A review by SY by was undertaken. It then turned into an investigation. If the investigation is not successful then an inquiry should be held to confirm that there were sufficient grounds for the review becoming an investigation.
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Now you could be right on that one.
BTW,
Just who are the Lizards? £4%4%
You missed this one Elenor.
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An investigation was undertaken in Portugal and then archived due to lack of evidence. A review by SY by was undertaken. It then turned into an investigation. If the investigation is not successful then an inquiry should be held to confirm that there were sufficient grounds for the review becoming an investigation.
The Portuguese were resonsible for re-opening the case, something they made clear they would only do if new evidence came to light. If there is to be an Inquiry anywhere it should be there, but I'm not sure if they go in for that sort of thing...?
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You missed this one Elenor.
If you weren't all "Quoting" all of the shit then my life would be so much more easy.
If you have got something On Topic to say then don't "Quote" Off Topic Insults in the process.
I no longer have the patience to separate it.
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Does no-one believe PJ and SY may solve it now?
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Does no-one believe PJ and SY may solve it now?
Now there is a question. I certainly don't believe that they can't. But then neither do I know if they can.
Do you?
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The Portuguese were resonsible for re-opening the case, something they made clear they would only do if new evidence came to light. If there is to be an Inquiry anywhere it should be there, but I'm not sure if they go in for that sort of thing...?
If the Brits want an enquiry, then the enquiry should be in Britland, and funded by the Brits.
Here's a clue. No one in Portugal wants an enquiry. No one in Portugal wants to pay for an enquiry.
If you want a party aka enquiry, please fund and conduct it yourselves. After all, if it is done in Portugal and paid for via Portuguese tax, all you are going to say at the end is lazy, corrupt, sardine-munchers. As per the last 8 years.
You can raise a petition on-line for the cause of an enquiry, organised in Britain, under British rules, and paid for by Britain. Feel free to pay for it first then criticise its findings.
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Now there is a question. I certainly don't believe that they can't. But then neither do I know if they can.
Do you?
Yes.
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If the Brits want an enquiry, then the enquiry should be in Britland, and funded by the Brits.
Here's a clue. No one in Portugal wants an enquiry. No one in Portugal wants to pay for an enquiry.
If you want a party aka enquiry, please fund and conduct it yourselves. After all, if it is done in Portugal and paid for via Portuguese tax, all you are going to say at the end is lazy, corrupt, sardine-munchers. As per the last 8 years.
You can raise a petition on-line for the cause of an enquiry, organised in Britain, under British rules, and paid for by Britain. Feel free to pay for it first then criticise its findings.
I don't want an enquiry, and nor does anyone I know. But that is seen as me wanting a cover up, despite it not even being relevant.
Once upon a time some people wanted the case reopened, and now that it has been, they want an inquiry into why it isn't going their way. For why The McCanns still haven't been arrested.
We are never going to get anywhere on this. And so it will grind on.
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Yes.
Oh Dear. Such utter faith in the guilt of two people, against whom there has never been any evidence.
This is really sad, for you.
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The Portuguese were resonsible for re-opening the case, something they made clear they would only do if new evidence came to light. If there is to be an Inquiry anywhere it should be there, but I'm not sure if they go in for that sort of thing...?
If the Portuguese people want an inquiry in Portugal so be it, it's nothing to do with us. I'm referring to a review by a British Police Force of a Portuguese case, which I would think is a first. The British Police Force then decided to turn it into a full blown investigation. Hopefully that means they discovered evidence which led them to believe they could solve the case. If the case remains unsolved at the end of the investigation then I for one would like to know the details.
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If the Brits want an enquiry, then the enquiry should be in Britland, and funded by the Brits.
Here's a clue. No one in Portugal wants an enquiry. No one in Portugal wants to pay for an enquiry.
If you want a party aka enquiry, please fund and conduct it yourselves. After all, if it is done in Portugal and paid for via Portuguese tax, all you are going to say at the end is lazy, corrupt, sardine-munchers. As per the last 8 years.
You can raise a petition on-line for the cause of an enquiry, organised in Britain, under British rules, and paid for by Britain. Feel free to pay for it first then criticise its findings.
No one in the UK wants an Inquiry either, only a handful of embittered old "sceptics", but do you not think the PJ has anything whatsoever to answer for regarding their conduct in this case?
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If the Portuguese people want an inquiry in Portugal so be it, it's nothing to do with us. I'm referring to a review by a British Police Force of a Portuguese case, which I would think is a first. The British Police Force then decided to turn it into a full blown investigation. Hopefully that means they discovered evidence which led them to believe they could solve the case. If the case remains unsolved at the end of the investigation then I for one would like to know the details.
Wouldn't we all, but is it worth millions of taxpayers money to find out? If so, why?
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Wouldn't we all, but is it worth millions of taxpayers money to find out? If so, why?
Yes. So we know if it was the right decision to use SY to review and then investigate a case which, to be honest, had nothing to do with UK police.
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Yes. So we know if it was the right decision to use SY to review and then investigate a case which, to be honest, had nothing to do with UK police.
And what if there is a £4m+ Inquiry that concludes it was the right decision, then what? What a momentous waste of money THAT would have been!
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And what if there is a £4m+ Inquiry that concludes it was the right decision, then what? What a momentous waste of money THAT would have been!
If the case is not solved it would be hard to justify turning a review into an investigation in my opinion. Surely an investigation would only be carried out if all concerned believed it would lead to a solution? If it doesn't then I would like to know why it didn't.
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If the case is not solved it would be hard to justify turning a review into an investigation in my opinion. Surely an investigation would only be carried out if all concerned believed it would lead to a solution? If it doesn't then I would like to know why it didn't.
You seem to be suggesting that no investigations should be carried out into any crime unless there is a guarantee the investigation will result in a successful prosecution. What nonsense.
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If the Brits want an enquiry, then the enquiry should be in Britland, and funded by the Brits.
Here's a clue. No one in Portugal wants an enquiry. No one in Portugal wants to pay for an enquiry.
If you want a party aka enquiry, please fund and conduct it yourselves. After all, if it is done in Portugal and paid for via Portuguese tax, all you are going to say at the end is lazy, corrupt, sardine-munchers. As per the last 8 years.
You can raise a petition on-line for the cause of an enquiry, organised in Britain, under British rules, and paid for by Britain. Feel free to pay for it first then criticise its findings.
I believe there has been such a petition on the go for a considerable amount of time. It attracted some of the same signatories who donated to the fundme account ... only difference being multi contributors did not claim due credit.
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You seem to be suggesting that no investigations should be carried out into any crime unless there is a guarantee the investigation will result in a successful prosecution. What nonsense.
No, only if the UK decide to investigate crimes which are outside our jurisdiction and which have already been officially investigated where they happened.
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You seem to be suggesting that no investigations should be carried out into any crime unless there is a guarantee the investigation will result in a successful prosecution. What nonsense.
An interesting point, as many cases that are investigated never proceed to trial because the likelyhood of successful prosecution is low.
Is the cost of investigation justified in such cases and should crimes always be fully investigated, even in the full knowledge that justice will not be achieved?
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If the case is not solved it would be hard to justify turning a review into an investigation in my opinion. Surely an investigation would only be carried out if all concerned believed it would lead to a solution? If it doesn't then I would like to know why it didn't.
Hmm.
There was a scoping exercise, eventually followed by a review with an investigative element, then the Met decided that they had enough elements to open a full investigation (as well as appeal for further information). Having all the bits and pieces on a database would presumably have thrown up all kinds of red flags - ranging from the potentially suspicious to loose ends to tie up once and for all and eliminate the irrelevant. Aside from Madeleine, there were also other British children, some of whom had been sexually abused and also deserve an attempt at justice, whether there is a link or not.
IMO, as more and more of the plod work gets done, the Met may well cut down on the staff involved and an associated drop in the allocated budget. If that happens, the Met will probably make an anncouncement in the media to that effect, stating that they believe that they've investigated as thoroughly as possible (x "actionables", etc., have been pursued), and operations will wind down until there is a major breakthrough.
I don't see what would require a public inquiry... even the Jersey fiasco wasn't a public inquiry, but an independent police one.
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No, only if the UK decide to investigate crimes which are outside our jurisdiction and which have already been officially investigated where they happened.
What about the cases of British kids being sexually abused? Those don't appear to have been investigated at the time...
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An interesting point, as many cases that are investigated never proceed to trial because the likelyhood of successful prosecution is low.
Is the cost of investigation justified in such cases and should crimes always be fully investigated, even in the full knowledge that justice will not be achieved?
How can anyone know in advance whether justice may - or may - not be achieved?
There are cases in which it turns out that the perp died years ago... Without a thorough investigation, the perp wouldn't have been identified (and therefore may still have been at large), and the victims wouldn't have any closure at all.
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What about the cases of British kids being sexually abused? Those don't appear to have been investigated at the time...
I don't know anything about them. I have seen something which suggests no-one in Portugal knew they took place, but I don't know if that's true. If the children's parents reported the incidents I don't know why they weren't investigated. Perhaps the parents involved should take it up with the Portuguese authorities if they reported crimes which were never investigated? I am speaking only about one case which was investigated and which the UK then decided to re-investigate.
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How can anyone know in advance whether justice may - or may - not be achieved?
There are cases in which it turns out that the perp died years ago... Without a thorough investigation, the perp wouldn't have been identified (and therefore may still have been at large), and the victims wouldn't have any closure at all.
I quite agreed, and yet, in the UK at least, many crimes are not properly investigated at all simply because there is no likelihood of a prosecution.
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I don't know anything about them. I have seen something which suggests no-one in Portugal knew they took place, but I don't know if that's true. If the children's parents reported the incidents I don't know why they weren't investigated. Perhaps the parents involved should take it up with the Portuguese authorities if they reported crimes which were never investigated? I am speaking only about one case which was investigated and which the UK then decided to re-investigate.
I think you'll find that the 2-3 posters who have denied that they ever happened have also denied that any burglaries ever took place either...
The only indication that the PJ were ever involved at all (I had thought that the reports may have remained on GNR files) is that there's a DNA result from one of the crime scenes floating about somewhere between the lab and the PJ forensic police office.
The tourists had gone home, the PJ didn't have much information to go on... and the cases may well have ended up in the vertical filing cabinet. IIRC, Kate described harrowing letters from parents pleading, but it's not clear whether there was ever much of an investigation.
The current PJ investigation into the Madeleine case may well also have picked up on these cases. Don't forget that at the time PT didn't have a DNA database.
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No, only if the UK decide to investigate crimes which are outside our jurisdiction and which have already been officially investigated where they happened.
The decision as to whether or not to re-open the investigation lay with the Portuguese, do you have a problem with the Portuguese decision-making process also?
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I quite agreed, and yet, in the UK at least, many crimes are not properly investigated at all simply because there is no likelihood of a prosecution.
If that's the case, do you agree with it?
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The decision as to whether or not to re-open the investigation lay with the Portuguese, do you have a problem with the Portuguese decision-making process also?
The Portuguese investigation is their business. The British investigation is our business.
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The Portuguese investigation is their business. The British investigation is our business.
At the moment they seem to be working together.
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The Portuguese investigation is their business. The British investigation is our business.
There would be no British investigation without Portuguese co-operation.
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There would be no British investigation without Portuguese co-operation.
If they solve the case fair enough. If they don't I would like to know what happened. If the Portuguese want to know they can have their own inquiry.
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If they solve the case fair enough. If they don't I would like to know what happened. If the Portuguese want to know they can have their own inquiry.
You would like to know why they didn't solve the case? Will you be requiring a public inquiry into the Ben Needham case if Ben is never found? Or Claudia Lawrence's case if no one is brought to justice? Where do you plan to draw the line in your insistence on knowing why some police investigations never gain resolution?
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If they solve the case fair enough. If they don't I would like to know what happened. If the Portuguese want to know they can have their own inquiry.
No doubt we will have a fresh set of PJ files to peruse at our leisure 8**8:/: if the case is archived yet again ... I am particularly interested in what the arguidos had to say.
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You would like to know why they didn't solve the case? Will you be requiring a public inquiry into the Ben Needham case if Ben is never found? Or Claudia Lawrence's case if no one is brought to justice? Where do you plan to draw the line in your insistence on knowing why some police investigations never gain resolution?
Tut tut, Alfred. This is Madeleine McCann we are talking about, and that is reason enough to have a public inquiry and when that is concluded why not a public inquiry into the public inquiry.
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No doubt we will have a fresh set of PJ files to peruse at our leisure 8**8:/: if the case is archived yet again ... I am particularly interested in what the arguidos had to say.
Are there any arguidos established by the PT side?
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No doubt we will have a fresh set of PJ files to peruse at our leisure 8**8:/: if the case is archived yet again ... I am particularly interested in what the arguidos had to say.
I think I might just be losing the will to live @)(++(*
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You would like to know why they didn't solve the case? Will you be requiring a public inquiry into the Ben Needham case if Ben is never found? Or Claudia Lawrence's case if no one is brought to justice? Where do you plan to draw the line in your insistence on knowing why some police investigations never gain resolution?
I would like to know their reasons for deciding to investigate the McCann case if it doesn't get solved. I have no opinion those other cases as they don't have anything to do with the thread.
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I would like to know their reasons for deciding to investigate the McCann case if it doesn't get solved. I have no opinion those other cases as they don't have anything to do with the thread.
They'd discovered a number of potential leads that either hadn't been fully investigated or hadn't been at all?
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Are there any arguidos established by the PT side?
No idea how it works, Carana.
If anyone had been likely to incriminate themselves while making a rogatory statement in Britain, would they have been given the right to have a lawyer present?
I think the arguido status of people under which the latest interviews were conducted was mainly as a precaution by the Portuguese ...
(a) to make sure everything was demonstrably above board
(b) to ensure interviewees legal right
I find it odd that giving the right to silence displaced having to answer every question asked, and looked more like angling for evidence for prosecution rather than seeking out what information might have been available to find Madeleine.
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I think I might just be losing the will to live @)(++(*
I hate having my hopes raised ... only to have them dashed 8(8-))
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They'd discovered a number of potential leads that either hadn't been fully investigated or hadn't been at all?
I know that Police Scotland review cold case evidence on a regular basis. Two of which have been recently solved and persons convicted. Fresh eyes can spot something missed in the original investigation, witnesses may have come forward and advances in forensic investigation also can play their part.
Seldom are there as many loose ends to tie up as in Madeleine McCann's case ... and it must be remembered that information was collated from Portuguese police sources, British police sources, the McCann PIs and all supplemented by information coming in from public appeal.
Is it any wonder there was enough there to warrant a fresh investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.
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I would like to know their reasons for deciding to investigate the McCann case if it doesn't get solved. I have no opinion those other cases as they don't have anything to do with the thread.
.........Those "reasons" might also reveal why the comments about the McCanns and friends not being considered suspects and the possibility that Madeleine might not have been alive when she left the apartment, were made.
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.........Those "reasons" might also reveal why the comments about the McCanns and friends not being considered suspects and the possibility that Madeleine might not have been alive when she left the apartment, were made.
Indeed they might.
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I don't want an enquiry, and nor does anyone I know. But that is seen as me wanting a cover up, despite it not even being relevant.
Once upon a time some people wanted the case reopened, and now that it has been, they want an inquiry into why it isn't going their way. For why The McCanns still haven't been arrested.
We are never going to get anywhere on this. And so it will grind on.
Nor I!
Today is turning into a strange day, me finding agreement with J-P and Eleanor on differing matters.
Then I'll walk outside right into the path of a lightning bolt (bootlegged from Jake Bugg)
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Madeleine's parents have ceaselessly campaigned for their daughter's case to be reopened and given a proper professional investigation. To do this they have used every lever at their disposal. Without that effort, there would be no investigation taking place today.
I think those who have campaigned for a Public Inquiry into Madeleine McCann's case have revealed exactly where their priorities lie. It is not a pretty sight.
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Madeleine's parents have ceaselessly campaigned for their daughter's case to be reopened and given a proper professional investigation. To do this they have used every lever at their disposal. Without that effort, there would be no investigation taking place today.
I think those who have campaigned for a Public Inquiry into Madeleine McCann's case have revealed exactly where their priorities lie. It is not a pretty sight.
There seem to be differing views on that score. I wouldn't know which to believe.
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I would like to know their reasons for deciding to investigate the McCann case if it doesn't get solved. I have no opinion those other cases as they don't have anything to do with the thread.
That's convenient. I can see no reason at all why you wouldn't adopt the same principle for EVERY unsolved police investigation.
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That's convenient. I can see no reason at all why you wouldn't adopt the same principle for EVERY unsolved police investigation.
I'm staying with the thread Alfred. You may deviate as much as you like, not me.
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I would like to know their reasons for deciding to investigate the McCann case if it doesn't get solved. I have no opinion those other cases as they don't have anything to do with the thread.
They didn't have one other than The PM decreed that it should be so and would not materially affect The Met's budget. It seems to have been well recorded that neither the head of The Met at the time nor the Home Secretary thought it was a matter for the English police but Dave pulled rank and said it should be otherwise.
The only question I would raise over it is why, out of all the missing persons / unsolved murder cases in this country, was this one, outside UK jurisdiction, given its own task force and a blank cheque book?
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I'm staying with the thread Alfred. You may deviate as much as you like, not me.
@)(++(* I'm not deviating. I am asking the question - if the Madeleine McCann case warrants a Public Inquiry for the reasons you have given, then isn't this a principle that should apply to all costly police investigations which fail to result in successful prosecution? If you think this is a deviation perhaps you could explain why?
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They didn't have one other than The PM decreed that it should be so and would not materially affect The Met's budget. It seems to have been well recorded that neither the head of The Met at the time nor the Home Secretary thought it was a matter for the English police but Dave pulled rank and said it should be otherwise.
The only question I would raise over it is why, out of all the missing persons / unsolved murder cases in this country, was this one, outside UK jurisdiction, given its own task force and a blank cheque book?
Exactly. So if they don't come up with the goods I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask why.
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They didn't have one other than The PM decreed that it should be so and would not materially affect The Met's budget. It seems to have been well recorded that neither the head of The Met at the time nor the Home Secretary thought it was a matter for the English police but Dave pulled rank and said it should be otherwise.
The only question I would raise over it is why, out of all the missing persons / unsolved murder cases in this country, was this one, outside UK jurisdiction, given its own task force and a blank cheque book?
Maybe he was trying to impress Rebekah 8(>((
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That's convenient. I can see no reason at all why you wouldn't adopt the same principle for EVERY unsolved police investigation.
If a Public Inquiry was ever thought appropriate ... wouldn't it be at the conclusion of a process rather than during it?
One can only suppose that the intention behind those demanding one is an yet another attempt to derail the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. Imo the only beneficiaries of that are the people or the person responsible for the crime against her.
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If a Public Inquiry was ever thought appropriate ... wouldn't it be at the conclusion of a process rather than during it?
One can only suppose that the intention behind those demanding one is an yet another attempt to derail the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. Imo the only beneficiaries of that are the people or the person responsible for the crime against her.
It's telling that the only people calling for a PI are McCann critics. How do they think a PI is going to damage the McCanns, (as that is clearly the overriding motivating factor - try and cause as much hurt to them as possible, whilst ensuring the case remains unsolved, allowing ongoing speculation forever more).
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It's telling that the only people calling for a PI are McCann critics. How do they think a PI is going to damage the McCanns, (as that is clearly the overriding motivating factor - try and cause as much hurt to them as possible, whilst ensuring the case remains unsolved, allowing ongoing speculation forever more).
Now if the mccanns had fully cooperated with the original investigation.....
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Now if the mccanns had fully cooperated with the original investigation.....
More BS
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I would like a Public Enquiry of the Portimao / Faro PJ's role in all this. @)(++(*
Especially the role of a number of senior officers. %£&)**#
I think the lower ranks did rather well.
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No one in the UK wants an Inquiry either, only a handful of embittered old "sceptics", but do you not think the PJ has anything whatsoever to answer for regarding their conduct in this case?
There is a VAST amount of advances, that Portugal and Britland, could learn from this case.
1 Best practice in Portugal how to handle a missing child/kidnapped child enquiry. No media? Tons of media? How about controlled media? 2015 and the nearest I get in Portugal is 'no media'.
2 Best practice UK. Fly a helicopter over Luz. Get a Sky News helicopter in hot pursuit. Dig up central Luz. Find something along the lines of a wild cannabis plant and someone's sock.
F**k me, if only the left hand knew what the right hand was doing, that would be a major improvement.
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There is a VAST amount of advances, that Portugal and Britland, could learn from this case.
1 Best practice in Portugal how to handle a missing child/kidnapped child enquiry. No media? Tons of media? How about controlled media? 2015 and the nearest I get in Portugal is 'no media'.
2 Best practice UK. Fly a helicopter over Luz. Get a Sky News helicopter in hot pursuit. Dig up central Luz. Find something along the lines of a wild cannabis plant and someone's sock.
F**k me, if only the left hand knew what the right hand was doing, that would be a major improvement.
Sounds a bit like judging boxing bouts in the US. You don't have to land a punch but you must look busy!
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There is a VAST amount of advances, that Portugal and Britland, could learn from this case.
1 Best practice in Portugal how to handle a missing child/kidnapped child enquiry. No media? Tons of media? How about controlled media? 2015 and the nearest I get in Portugal is 'no media'.
2 Best practice UK. Fly a helicopter over Luz. Get a Sky News helicopter in hot pursuit. Dig up central Luz. Find something along the lines of a wild cannabis plant and someone's sock.
F**k me, if only the left hand knew what the right hand was doing, that would be a major improvement.
I see mention of a short helicopter flight over Praia da Luz and the surrounding area, I have also seen that private aviators flew in formation over the terrain in an effort to spot Madeleine.
Is there any record of a military helicopter with heat seeking equipment on board being deployed to carry out night surveillance at a time when the police were still convinced of the 'woke and wandered' theory?
An inquiry would reveal answers to questions like that. I would also be surprised if the Portuguese authorities had not already had their own internal inquiry into the whole affair.
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Public inquiry
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A tribunal of inquiry is an official review of events or actions ordered by a government body in Common Law countries such as the United Kingdom, Ireland or Canada. Such a public inquiry differs from a Royal Commission in that a public inquiry accepts evidence and conducts its hearings in a more public forum and focuses on a more specific occurrence. Interested members of the public and organisations may not only make (written) evidential submissions as is the case with most inquiries, but also listen to oral evidence given by other parties.
Typical events for a public inquiry are those that cause multiple deaths, such as public transport crashes or mass murders. However, in the UK, the Planning Inspectorate, an agency of the Department for Communities and Local Government, routinely holds public inquiries into a range of major and lesser land use developments, including highways and other transport proposals.
Advocacy groups and opposition political parties are likely to ask for public inquiries for all manner of issues. The government of the day typically only accedes to a fraction of these requests. A public inquiry generally takes longer to report and costs more on account of its public nature. Thus when a government refuses a public inquiry on some topic, it is usually on these grounds.
The conclusions of the inquiry are delivered in the form of a written report, given first to the government, and soon after published to the public. The report will generally make recommendations to improve the quality of government or management of public organisations in the future.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_inquiry
Public inquiries investigate issues of serious public concern, scrutinising past decisions and events. It is therefore crucial that information created or used during the course of an inquiry is managed to ensure its survival for future policy makers and researchers.
Without effective information management right from the start a public inquiry will struggle to run efficiently, justify its findings or provide a lasting record.
Public inquiries are conducted on behalf of the Crown, which therefore means that records created or given to the inquiry are public records as defined by the Public Records Act 1958. Those responsible for public records, including the chairman of a public inquiry, have a duty to make arrangements for the selection of those records which ought to be permanently preserved and for their safe-keeping. Under the Inquiry Rules 2006 it is also the responsibility of the chairman to ensure ‘the record of the inquiry is comprehensive and well-ordered’.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/manage-information/planning/public-inquiry-guidance/
Several topics treated here:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/series/publicinquiry
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I see mention of a short helicopter flight over Praia da Luz and the surrounding area, I have also seen that private aviators flew in formation over the terrain in an effort to spot Madeleine.
Is there any record of a military helicopter with heat seeking equipment on board being deployed to carry out night surveillance at a time when the police were still convinced of the 'woke and wandered' theory?
An inquiry would reveal answers to questions like that. I would also be surprised if the Portuguese authorities had not already had their own internal inquiry into the whole affair.
The helicopter farce I am talking about in mid 2014 is the SY farce.
Let me turn to 2007, and the PJ. Were helicopters deployed on the night? As far as I know the answer is no.
Were helicopters ever deployed? I am confident that they were. I am simply at a loss to understand what they hoped to achieve with them.
Were helicopters with heat-seeking equipment deployed? From memory, Kate's book does raise this, I think.
I don't think heat-seeking helicopters ever took to the air in this case. But if they did, what were they up against?
The Tapas restaurant was pumping out oven heat. The Millennium was likewise. In fact, every restaurant and bar in Luz that night (about 30) was kicking out heat signatures.
If you could screen all this out, AND Smithman is the perp, then perhaps you might see a hot and sweaty Smithman standing out above the heat signature of the Smiths. This spot would be pure genius.
To get to this point, we have to manage to exclude all the noise. That would be folks who decided to cook at home, those who decided the barbecue was fun that evening, and those who decided to switch on their car engines and leave heat trails all over the place.
The N125 must have been alive with heat trails. If we had time-stamped heat trail maps from that time, we would be so far forward from where we are now.
For the present, I am sticking with Heriberto that the phone maps may be a way forward.