Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ShiningInLuz on May 24, 2015, 02:44:20 AM
Title: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 24, 2015, 02:44:20 AM
Let me see if I can summarise the key searches.
The Tapas 9 had a first search around apartment 5A in the minutes after Kate alerted. I don't know what radius was searched, exactly who searched, how it was conducted or precisely how long.
The Mark Warner or Ocean Club 'structured' search kicked in. Apart from knowing it was 'structured', which means folks got a document saying where to search, went and searched, returned, and got another pamphlet, I know little about how this went. I don't know which areas were searched, by whom, when, or exactly how they conducted that search.
The GNR turned up on the night. Again, the details of the search are vague. Officers exploring 'perimeters', though perimeter of what is vague. Dogs deployed, vague. Cars patrolling, vague.
Kate and Gerry searched, in the early hours of 4 May. I haven't got a clue where, except it was quiet.
The good citizens of Luz searched extensively. But I don't know where they searched, whether they were looking for a woke-and-wandered child or a victim, or how methodical the search was. Or how long it lasted. (Note - in the SY search of mid-2014, most citizens of Luz said the mound had already been searched extensively. At least one commentator was sure it had not.)
The GNR extended the search radius over the following week to, I believe, about 15km. I know more about the assets they deployed than about how they searched. I have no idea, for example, whether or not the abandoned wells in this area were inspected.
When the media firestorm kicked in, people came from far and wide to search. There were people in the local drains, people on the golf course, people with visions, and some of these resulted in further searching, but who did what when?
Then Mark Harrison arrived, and gave his assessment of where to look for a dead body assuming one was in the locality. I will not claim to know even the bare bones of that one.
The only search I 'know' that I am confident about is the mid-2014 SY search of Luz. The area that I call the mound was sealed off by the GNR and SY did a search that included using ground penetrating radar and sniffer dogs. Then they did a brief check on two areas to the east of Luz, just outside the town.
If you can add information, comments or thoughts to improve this lot, please do so
The search of McCann and Tapas 9 properties/vehicles are covered elsewhere. Please do not raise them here.
The search of Murat and associates properties/vehicles are covered elsewhere. Please do not raise them in this thread.
8((()*/
48
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 24, 2015, 07:22:25 AM
Where was Gerry immediately after Kate found Madeleine gone at 10pm?
The Tapas 9 had a first search around apartment 5A in the minutes after Kate alerted. I don't know what radius was searched, exactly who searched, how it was conducted or precisely how long.
The Mark Warner or Ocean Club 'structured' search kicked in. Apart from knowing it was 'structured', which means folks got a document saying where to search, went and searched, returned, and got another pamphlet, I know little about how this went. I don't know which areas were searched, by whom, when, or exactly how they conducted that search.
The GNR turned up on the night. Again, the details of the search are vague. Officers exploring 'perimeters', though perimeter of what is vague. Dogs deployed, vague. Cars patrolling, vague.
Kate and Gerry searched, in the early hours of 4 May. I haven't got a clue where, except it was quiet.
The good citizens of Luz searched extensively. But I don't know where they searched, whether they were looking for a woke-and-wandered child or a victim, or how methodical the search was. Or how long it lasted. (Note - in the SY search of mid-2014, most citizens of Luz said the mound had already been searched extensively. At least one commentator was sure it had not.)
The GNR extended the search radius over the following week to, I believe, about 15km. I know more about the assets they deployed than about how they searched. I have no idea, for example, whether or not the abandoned wells in this area were inspected.
When the media firestorm kicked in, people came from far and wide to search. There were people in the local drains, people on the golf course, people with visions, and some of these resulted in further searching, but who did what when?
Then Mark Harrison arrived, and gave his assessment of where to look for a dead body assuming one was in the locality. I will not claim to know even the bare bones of that one.
The only search I 'know' that I am confident about is the mid-2014 SY search of Luz. The area that I call the mound was sealed off by the GNR and SY did a search that included using ground penetrating radar and sniffer dogs. Then they did a brief check on two areas to the east of Luz, just outside the town.
If you can add information, comments or thoughts to improve this lot, please do so
The search of McCann and Tapas 9 properties/vehicles are covered elsewhere. Please do not raise them here.
The search of Murat and associates properties/vehicles are covered elsewhere. Please do not raise them in this thread.
8((()*/
This is a really interesting topic so thank you for raising this new thread. This subject has been touched on in passing in several threads in the past but I don't think any attempt has ever been made to bring it under a single heading.
As you have pointed out in your intro, there appears to have been a cursory search of the holiday apartment and the immediate vicinity following the discovery that Madeleine was missing. Despite claims that Kate was supposed to have yelled, "Gerry...they've taken her..." or similar words to that effect, this search would appear to have been hopeful of finding a live child who had somehow got out on her own and got lost in the darkness.
When the Mark Warner search procedure eventually kicked in some twenty minutes after the alert, this again was targeted at finding a missing child who had wandered away from the safety of her apartment. I have yet to find any indications that even in this golden hour that searchers were looking for an abductor. This seems to have come later following the GNR officers' initial interview with the parents.
A previous discussion...So what actual searching was there?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 10:20:59 AM
That's a good point John. Mark Warner were searching for a child who had wandered off, so no-one convinced them initially that an abduction had occurred. David Payne searched despite his and the McCanns conviction that it wasn't a case of wandering. He searched around before returning to the apartment and staying there;
I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off..... sleepy children you know don't put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts
Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place... I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area....we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we've got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I'll, I'll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people....so more likely I'd have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what's gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don't know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2015, 10:38:16 AM
It is quite normal for people other than Kate and Gerry to first think that Madeleine had just wandered off. Silly not to, so it had to be done.
I might have wondered what the point was of this Thread, but so much more is coming out, now that some of us are actually, seriously looking at it all.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: John on May 24, 2015, 10:46:00 AM
Even if a thousand searchers searched for a thousand days in and around Luz, the terrain is such that hidden remains would in all likelihood remain hidden.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 11:05:12 AM
Matthew Oldfield says;
Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past...I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant...let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment.
He then did more running around, returned to Reception with Gerald at 11pm, then more running around later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 11:20:15 AM
So far I have found no evidence of Gerald McCann being out and about searching with the other men. At some point Dianne Webster left the tapas restaurant and went to G5A. In her first interview she says only Kate was there. In her second interview she says both the McCanns were there.
The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA, not remembering any other people that were there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 24, 2015, 02:36:09 PM
They searched Rocha Negra beach. They should have checked the rocks area from the church properly. That's an obvious hiding place in the dark not the sandy beach. SY should be doing it now with those pesky dogs.
Letter regarding inspection sites 2007.07.01 Canine Inspection Report Date * Time 1 August 2007 20h00 Place Praia da Luz * Lagos Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; one Scotland Yard police officer; Eddy, the English Springer [Spaniel]; two GNR police officers Today, after assessment of the area surrounding the tourist resort named "Ocean Club" in Praia da Luz, in which [assessment] were considered matters of toponomy, soil characteristics and distance from the apartment from where the minor Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was done with the canine unit specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in Praia da Luz, in the area from the start of the rock formation contiguous [immediately next] to the beach and commonly called "talefe" up to the area called "Rocha Negra" [Black Rock] that is characterised by the existence of a volcanic chimney [vent]. 1. Thus, at 20h05, the stretch of sand, rock and rocky cavities [hollows] in the terrain was examined, nothing abnormal having been detected. The inspection happened in an area located to the left, when facing the sea, of the sandy beach of Luz, from the Millenium Restaurant The entire stretch of ground was examined, nothing abnormal was detected and so the work concluded at 21h00.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on May 24, 2015, 02:36:37 PM
In the search for Mikaeel Kular the Police Scotland made a public appeal for volunteers and organised and controlled all aspects of the search.
Volunteers had to register their name and details and were briefed and advised on the best areas to search.
They were also advised on the type of clothing to be worn taking into consideration the prevailing weather conditions and terrain. The volunteers were advised on health and safety and suitable jackets and footwear were available for anyone who needed them.
A systematic search was ensured by Police Scotland advisers who coordinated areas to be searched and who kept a record of which areas had been searched. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/mikaeel-kular-missing-recap-huge-3030802
There is a stark contrast with the searches organised to look for Madeleine McCann where that level of organisation appears to have been lacking.
Peter Neal Patterson
I met Kate and Gerry on Friday after having made contact with them via written messages during the week.
They knew I was participating in the searches that week.
I felt dispirited because there appeared to be no coordination or leadership to the searches.
Many people went searching without adequate local equipment, like for example people were cutting their feet on the rough terrain or on the shrubs in those locales. Many people wore sandal and walked over tough land.
I never saw any police involvement in the operations carried out by civilians.
On Friday the 11th of May 2007 we heard rumours that the Portuguese were going to stop the searches.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PE-PA.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 02:55:23 PM
Mark Harrison reviewed the initial searches carried out in the first 7 days;
GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance. On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann..... The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
The next Zone 2 was extended out to a radius of 7km to the boundary of the N120 road at Bensafrim. As the sectors were larger and in order to support the line searches 2 GNR officers on motorcycles and 6 GNR officers on horse-back were deployed. These sectors were all searched on 2 separate occasions over the 7 day period. The outer zone 3 was extended to 15km at Barragem de Odiaxere a dammed lake. This zone is in a mountainous region subject to flash forest fires. Therefore Fire officers who routinely patrol and have local knowledge of the area were tasked to drive the tracks, visit empty properties to look for the missing girl. Additionally the fire brigade used a boat to visually inspect the surface water of the lake.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 24, 2015, 03:06:09 PM
Mark Harrison reviewed the initial searches carried out in the first 7 days;
GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance. On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann..... The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
The next Zone 2 was extended out to a radius of 7km to the boundary of the N120 road at Bensafrim. As the sectors were larger and in order to support the line searches 2 GNR officers on motorcycles and 6 GNR officers on horse-back were deployed. These sectors were all searched on 2 separate occasions over the 7 day period. The outer zone 3 was extended to 15km at Barragem de Odiaxere a dammed lake. This zone is in a mountainous region subject to flash forest fires. Therefore Fire officers who routinely patrol and have local knowledge of the area were tasked to drive the tracks, visit empty properties to look for the missing girl. Additionally the fire brigade used a boat to visually inspect the surface water of the lake.
That just cannot be correct. There is an abundance of opinion that no one searched/the search was not coordinated/it was haphazard/it was incompetent. I know I read it on here posted by the "experts"
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 03:43:46 PM
That just cannot be correct. There is an abundance of opinion that no one searched/the search was not coordinated/it was haphazard/it was incompetent. I know I read it on here posted by the "experts"
Well Mark Harrison thought they searched; 8)-)))
The sea in general circumstances would be immediately attractive to an offender as an easy way of body disposal and so must be considered. The searches of the coastline was conducted by the Maritime Police and Coastguard. They searched the sea for any body buoyant on the surface and checked the coves and caves.
This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive.
On his recommendations they searched again in August (I think);
The search process was then initiated and continued over the following eight days. Throughout and at all locations I acted as an observer and search adviser. The PJ appointed a Chief Inspector as a search manager who was present throughout. Additionally, separate PJ officers were appointed to record and map each search location and provide a contemporaneous video commentary of all search activity undertaken. This system of management and recording was based on my reports recommendation to ensure record accuracy, transparency and facilitate any future clarification of any search activity undertaken. It was also essential that the official management and recording of the search was conducted by the Portuguese Police themselves rather than by British officers without any powers and not conversant with Portuguese law and judicial processes.
The search process used personnel to physically, intrusively and invasively explore all areas of disturbance, voids and concealment within the areas searched. The search utilised dogs trained to locate human remains and human blood, ground penetrating radar to detect sub surface disturbance and concealment, clearance teams to remove concealing vegetation, endoscopes to search drains and voids and metal probes to search the ground. These teams were supported by experts in Forensic Anthropology for human bone identification and a professor in geophysics. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 24, 2015, 04:19:05 PM
It is quite normal for people other than Kate and Gerry to first think that Madeleine had just wandered off. Silly not to, so it had to be done.
I might have wondered what the point was of this Thread, but so much more is coming out, now that some of us are actually, seriously looking at it all.
Indeed. However, why didn't Kate and Gerry not scream OUR DAUGHTERS BEEN ABDUCTED PLEASE PLEASE HELP US!..hmm well Kate was convinced immediately so she claims. So if you KNOW your daughter has been abducted why run to the tapas bar and announce, why not talk loudly and ask for assistance demand someone call the police there and then! ( Sadie claims they could check on the children because they could see the apartment, it was only 50 mtrs away), AND so Kate leaves two other children alone,AGAIN, while she ran off for help. No one shouted abduction , the abduction theory came later!( to cover the unlocked apartment)... Kate calls the family and mentions; whooshing curtains and jemmied shutters implying an abductor BROKE IN and stole Maddie.
That is why people were looking for a wandered child! AND it occurred to the parents in all this, what would people think about them and what they did, So a story was born...deflection was the name of the game, that is what it became - a game! IMO.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 24, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
That just cannot be correct. There is an abundance of opinion that no one searched/the search was not coordinated/it was haphazard/it was incompetent. I know I read it on here posted by the "experts"
...And well documented on all the national papers, why even the PM of the day heard about it...the fat, drunk, tuna munching lazy cop.
It does say what contempt Team McCann have for decent well minded citizens in PDL, to accuse them of not looking for * A little girl*...and the police were doing 'nothing'
All the while they noticed this; 'nothing being done' as they blogged and jogged and went meeting and greeting their adoring public.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2015, 04:25:13 PM
Indeed. However, why didn't Kate and Gerry not scream OUR DAUGHTERS BEEN ABDUCTED PLEASE PLEASE HELP US!..hmm well Kate was convinced immediately so she claims. So if you KNOW your daughter has been abducted why run to the tapas bar and announce, why not talk loudly and ask for assistance demand someone call the police there and then! ( Sadie claims they could check on the children because they could see the apartment, it was only 50 mtrs away), AND so Kate leaves two other children alone,AGAIN, while she ran off for help. No one shouted abduction , the abduction theory came later!( to cover the unlocked apartment)... Kate calls the family and mentions; whooshing curtains and jemmied shutters implying an abductor BROKE IN and stole Maddie.
That is why people were looking for a wandered child! AND it occurred to the parents in all this, what would people think about them and what they did, So a story was born...deflection was the name of the game, that is what it became - a game! IMO.
Don't tempt me. This is a Thread about Searches. And I will delete anything looking like Off Topic.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2015, 04:27:08 PM
...And well documented on all the national papers, why even the PM of the day heard about it...the fat, drunk, tuna munching lazy cop.
It does say what contempt Team McCann have for decent well minded citizens in PDL, to accuse them of not looking for * A little girl*...and the police were doing 'nothing'
All the while they noticed this; 'nothing being done' as they blogged and jogged and went meeting and greeting their adoring public.
Another Off Topic Post. This will be gone shortly.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 24, 2015, 04:27:43 PM
It's a bank holiday... i am working it...
and I do mention why people were searching for a wandered child... 8()-000(
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
Mark Harrison reviewed the initial searches carried out in the first 7 days;
GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance. On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann..... The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by airm scenting dogs.
The next Zone 2 was extended out to a radius of 7km to the boundary of the N120 road at Bensafrim. As the sectors were larger and in order to support the line searches 2 GNR officers on motorcycles and 6 GNR officers on horse-back were deployed. These sectors were all searched on 2 separate occasions over the 7 day period. The outer zone 3 was extended to 15km at Barragem de Odiaxere a dammed lake. This zone is in a mountainous region subject to flash forest fires. Therefore Fire officers who routinely patrol and have local knowledge of the area were tasked to drive the tracks, visit empty properties to look for the missing girl. Additionally the fire brigade used a boat to visually inspect the surface water of the lake.
Thank you G-unit. There will have been searches of all sorts going on both official and unofficial such was the concern of both residents and tourists. To expect a police officer to accompany each and every search group is just unrealistic.
It was an impossible task though as anyone from the local area will tell you, the sheer enormity of it was something this area never previously experienced.
The search for Mikaeel Kular in Edinburgh on the other hand was carefully targeted to specific urban landscapes and parkland areas around the child's home and did not involve searching thousands of acres of scrub as was the case with Madeleine.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: John on May 24, 2015, 05:56:19 PM
BBC News 8 May 2007
Olegario de Sousa, of the Portuguese police told assembled journalists than an area with a radius of 15km (10 miles) around the Algarve resort had been searched - along with hundreds of nearby apartments.
www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6636869.stm
Out of curiosity, are there any documented comments criticising the 'search for Madeleine'?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 24, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
Olegario de Sousa, of the Portuguese police told assembled journalists than an area with a radius of 15km (10 miles) around the Algarve resort had been searched - along with hundreds of nearby apartments.
www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6636869.stm
Out of curiosity, are there any documented comments criticising the 'search for Madeleine'?
It may be significant that in "the only comprehensive book written on the subject by award winning authors" there is no criticism; quite the reverse in fact.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on May 24, 2015, 06:34:57 PM
Thank you G-unit. There will have been searches of all sorts going on both official and unofficial such was the concern of both residents and tourists. To expect a police officer to accompany each and every search group is just unrealistic.
It was an impossible task though as anyone from the local area will tell you, the sheer enormity of it was something this area never previously experienced.
The search for Mikaeel Kular in Edinburgh on the other hand was carefully targeted to specific urban landscapes and parkland areas around the child's home and did not involve searching thousands of acres of scrub as was the case with Madeleine.
Whatever the terrain it is important to know who is searching and where. There is no point in allowing people to go out in a disorganised manner, perhaps getting injured themselves in the process or searching the same area four times while entirely missing another.
I disagree that the search for Mikaeel did not involve searching a huge area and had it been confined to the area from which he disappeared he would possibly never have been found.
I don't know if there was a scarcity of professional resources to advise and organise the volunteers effectively in PDL or why you suggest that small independent groups are an efficient way to operate in the search for a missing child when clearly any search protocols are better than none.
Peter Neal Patterson's statement makes it clear that volunteers were searching, but speaking as a volunteer searcher himself he despaired that their was no coordination or police involvement with the volunteers.
Surely the waste of a valuable resource of volunteers as well as a totally irresponsible police response.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
And never a good idea in the first place. Beyond that first night.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 07:18:44 PM
Russell O'Brien's early searching;
I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry. We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. We went on to search the gardens and patios. Then we went downhill towards the centre. On the second search we went to the shopping centre and then towards the tennis courts. We searched around the back of the tennis courts.
On my way back I bumped into Dave he said to me this is bad this is really bad they’ve not found her....I searched mainly on my own, although we were all close by to each other. The searches weren’t really planned no plans were drawn up and there wasn’t really any particular structure. There may have been places that we missed, it was hap-hazard and panicked. It wasn’t well organised. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: John on May 24, 2015, 07:34:08 PM
Whatever the terrain it is important to know who is searching and where. There is no point in allowing people to go out in a disorganised manner, perhaps getting injured themselves in the process or searching the same area four times while entirely missing another.
I disagree that the search for Mikaeel did not involve searching a huge area and had it been confined to the area from which he disappeared he would possibly never have been found.
I don't know if there was a scarcity of professional resources to advise and organise the volunteers effectively in PDL or why you suggest that small independent groups are an efficient way to operate in the search for a missing child when clearly any search protocols are better than none.
Peter Neal Patterson's statement makes it clear that volunteers were searching, but speaking as a volunteer searcher himself he despaired that their was no coordination or police involvement with the volunteers.
Surely the waste of a valuable resource of volunteers as well as a totally irresponsible police response.
The searchers never found Mikaeel because they were looking in the wrong place. Mikaeel was found thanks to the trawling of CCTV footage from the Forth Road Br which showed his mothers car being driven through the tolls the day before. Some nifty police work revealed she was on her way to her parents home in Kirkcaldy where the boys remains were later found.
By Madeleine search standards the Mikaeel search was literally a walk in the park. In Portugal the search extended ten miles from Luz.
There were so many people out independently looking for Madeleine that coordination of them all was an impossible task. There will always be critics in any search operation but in Maddie's case I don't believe the police and rescue services can be faulted.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2015, 08:52:01 PM
Kate's friend Nicky Gill was part of these civilian searches too, seems they were organised by the guy 'Dave' whi was very involved from the start;
On Monday morning, Fiona Payne knocked on our door and told us that there would be a search organised by a resident, Dave, we agreed to join the search and went with about 10 other people in a mini bus. We spent the morning searching grounds and areas of difficult access surrounding the resort, but I dont know where the exact location was. There was no police involvement in these searches, but I think that Dave was in contact with the local police. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NICKY_GILL.htm
Kate McCann doesn't seem to have noticed the large numbers of police, firemen etc. searching;
Saturday, the 5th of May of 2007. Kate was still frustrated and anguished and felt that nobody was doing anything to help find Madeleine. She told me that the police had left in the morning and returned around 09H30 and that now only a few agents with sniffer dogs were in the locale. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/M_THOMPSON.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2015, 10:39:14 AM
Operation Grange update 11th June 2014;
Operation Grange officers working alongside experts in their field from around the UK, the Policia Judicial and the Guarda Nacional Republicana today, Wednesday 11 June completed an eight day period of work searching specific areas of land in Praia da Luz....The decision to search the “horse shoe” shaped piece of waste ground to the west of Praia da Luz and other sites was as a specific result of the UK’s investigation work to date.
The total area of land searched and surveyed was of approximately 60,000 sq metres and included all utilities, drainage channels and derelict buildings. 41 ground anomalies were identified initially by both aerial survey and ground analysis which were then investigated fully. These included three outside of the original area.
There is still a substantial amount of work yet to be completed in the coming weeks and months, which again should be viewed as no more than normal operational activity in a case of this size and complexity. This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally. This is the same as would be done in the UK for a murder or high risk missing person enquiry. The scientific support staff involved were there to provide the highest level of assurance that this area was searched to the highest possible standards. http://www.findmadeleine.com/updates/
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Mr Gray on May 25, 2015, 10:53:00 AM
Operation Grange officers working alongside experts in their field from around the UK, the Policia Judicial and the Guarda Nacional Republicana today, Wednesday 11 June completed an eight day period of work searching specific areas of land in Praia da Luz....The decision to search the “horse shoe” shaped piece of waste ground to the west of Praia da Luz and other sites was as a specific result of the UK’s investigation work to date.
The total area of land searched and surveyed was of approximately 60,000 sq metres and included all utilities, drainage channels and derelict buildings. 41 ground anomalies were identified initially by both aerial survey and ground analysis which were then investigated fully. These included three outside of the original area.
There is still a substantial amount of work yet to be completed in the coming weeks and months, which again should be viewed as no more than normal operational activity in a case of this size and complexity. This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally. This is the same as would be done in the UK for a murder or high risk missing person enquiry. The scientific support staff involved were there to provide the highest level of assurance that this area was searched to the highest possible standards. http://www.findmadeleine.com/updates/
so the hypothesis is that she was killed...
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2015, 08:14:16 PM
They searched Rocha Negra beach. They should have checked the rocks area from the church properly. That's an obvious hiding place in the dark not the sandy beach. SY should be doing it now with those pesky dogs.
Letter regarding inspection sites 2007.07.01 Canine Inspection Report Date * Time 1 August 2007 20h00 Place Praia da Luz * Lagos Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; one Scotland Yard police officer; Eddy, the English Springer [Spaniel]; two GNR police officers Today, after assessment of the area surrounding the tourist resort named "Ocean Club" in Praia da Luz, in which [assessment] were considered matters of toponomy, soil characteristics and distance from the apartment from where the minor Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was done with the canine unit specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in Praia da Luz, in the area from the start of the rock formation contiguous [immediately next] to the beach and commonly called "talefe" up to the area called "Rocha Negra" [Black Rock] that is characterised by the existence of a volcanic chimney [vent]. 1. Thus, at 20h05, the stretch of sand, rock and rocky cavities [hollows] in the terrain was examined, nothing abnormal having been detected. The inspection happened in an area located to the left, when facing the sea, of the sandy beach of Luz, from the Millenium Restaurant The entire stretch of ground was examined, nothing abnormal was detected and so the work concluded at 21h00.
There are 3 rocky areas in Luz. First is to the west of the little beach, which clearly is not indicated in this report. Second is to the south of the church, extending to the main beach somewhat east. Then there is some 300m of beach before rocks near the cliff. These are crumbly and have warning signs of rockfalls. The rocks extend to Black Rock and beyond.
I don't know whether it is relevant or not, but most of the holiday makers constantly explore the rocks near Black Rock for the simple reason that they are filled with pools of seawater, containing crabs, shellfish and some weirdy beardy horrible looking red things.
It is a free entertainment that keeps small kids entertained for hours at a stretch so it is very popular.
I must not mention the lady sunbathing topless.
I doubt that anyone did a proper search of any of the 3 sets of rocks that night. Even if one had a torch, this is a leg-breaker.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2015, 08:39:45 PM
Mark Harrison reviewed the initial searches carried out in the first 7 days;
GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance. On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann..... The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
The next Zone 2 was extended out to a radius of 7km to the boundary of the N120 road at Bensafrim. As the sectors were larger and in order to support the line searches 2 GNR officers on motorcycles and 6 GNR officers on horse-back were deployed. These sectors were all searched on 2 separate occasions over the 7 day period. The outer zone 3 was extended to 15km at Barragem de Odiaxere a dammed lake. This zone is in a mountainous region subject to flash forest fires. Therefore Fire officers who routinely patrol and have local knowledge of the area were tasked to drive the tracks, visit empty properties to look for the missing girl. Additionally the fire brigade used a boat to visually inspect the surface water of the lake.
I have been a bit tardy on responses to this thread because my time has been taken up trying to produce an update phone map on my blog, so please accept my apologies.
Question - does or does not the all fit into the very generic - people searched summary? Folks were active? There is no information whatsoever about what area was covered in what unit time. Sectors were drawn - what sectors? Officers were debriefed ... and records collected. What records?
Barragem de Odiáxere, in a region subject to flash forest fires. While tracks were driven and empty properties were investigated? Please note, in a nutshell the break-and-enter laws here are similar to the UK. The GNR has no right to enter an empty property unless it is totally derelict, they have the owner's permission, or they get a warrant.
Whilst what is the use of driving on tracks? A disposal site won't be seen from driving on tracks. I have been having an extremely tough time looking for very large sites that acted as communication links at the time. I haven't a hope in hell of finding a clandestine grave in a forest.
Therefore my summary of this report is - people tried.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on May 26, 2015, 12:35:10 PM
I have been a bit tardy on responses to this thread because my time has been taken up trying to produce an update phone map on my blog, so please accept my apologies.
Question - does or does not the all fit into the very generic - people searched summary? Folks were active? There is no information whatsoever about what area was covered in what unit time. Sectors were drawn - what sectors? Officers were debriefed ... and records collected. What records?
Barragem de Odiáxere, in a region subject to flash forest fires. While tracks were driven and empty properties were investigated? Please note, in a nutshell the break-and-enter laws here are similar to the UK. The GNR has no right to enter an empty property unless it is totally derelict, they have the owner's permission, or they get a warrant.
Whilst what is the use of driving on tracks? A disposal site won't be seen from driving on tracks. I have been having an extremely tough time looking for very large sites that acted as communication links at the time. I haven't a hope in hell of finding a clandestine grave in a forest.
Therefore my summary of this report is - people tried.
One of the main areas from which to gain intelligence in a modern day search is from phone traffic.
I don't know, if Madeleine's had been a planned abduction involving more than one person, people would have been aware of the necessity for 'radio silence'. Eight years down the line they would certainly be aware and either not used the phone at all or in an emergency an untraceable Pay As You Go to be discarded immediately the job was done.
If any reliance can be placed on leaks to newspapers SY's interest was excited by certain phone pings which I think might have indicated short panic calls ~ perhaps as a result of unplanned abduction.
Heri goes into it in more detail ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/madeleine-mccann_7.html
You have raised the issue in your blog that there is a great deal of evidence in the files regarding phone traffic between Mr Murat and his associates and the Drs McCann and theirs ... with no corresponding record of similar in-depth investigation into any of the rest of the phone traffic.
I am not insensitive to the enormity of that task ... and it was done to a degree as some individuals were asked to explain anomalies (people from the Millenium restaurant, I think in one instance?) and Heri working as an individual spotted others. So an opportunity missed.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on May 26, 2015, 11:44:02 PM
One of the main areas from which to gain intelligence in a modern day search is from phone traffic.
I don't know, if Madeleine's had been a planned abduction involving more than one person, people would have been aware of the necessity for 'radio silence'. Eight years down the line they would certainly be aware and either not used the phone at all or in an emergency an untraceable Pay As You Go to be discarded immediately the job was done.
If any reliance can be placed on leaks to newspapers SY's interest was excited by certain phone pings which I think might have indicated short panic calls ~ perhaps as a result of unplanned abduction.
Heri goes into it in more detail ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/madeleine-mccann_7.html
You have raised the issue in your blog that there is a great deal of evidence in the files regarding phone traffic between Mr Murat and his associates and the Drs McCann and theirs ... with no corresponding record of similar in-depth investigation into any of the rest of the phone traffic.
I am not insensitive to the enormity of that task ... and it was done to a degree as some individuals were asked to explain anomalies (people from the Millenium restaurant, I think in one instance?) and Heri working as an individual spotted others. So an opportunity missed.
Heri noticed lots of things that peeps on here are not aware of.
Very good analytical brain has Heri
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2015, 12:53:30 AM
There are 3 rocky areas in Luz. First is to the west of the little beach, which clearly is not indicated in this report. Second is to the south of the church, extending to the main beach somewhat east. Then there is some 300m of beach before rocks near the cliff. These are crumbly and have warning signs of rockfalls. The rocks extend to Black Rock and beyond.
I don't know whether it is relevant or not, but most of the holiday makers constantly explore the rocks near Black Rock for the simple reason that they are filled with pools of seawater, containing crabs, shellfish and some weirdy beardy horrible looking red things.
It is a free entertainment that keeps small kids entertained for hours at a stretch so it is very popular.
I must not mention the lady sunbathing topless.
I doubt that anyone did a proper search of any of the 3 sets of rocks that night. Even if one had a torch, this is a leg-breaker.
Thanks the area from the church is the one that is of interest to me aka My Rocks.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2015, 01:20:03 PM
The rocks south of the church are problematical. I cannot remember a single statement mentioning searching any of the rocky areas, nor do I know if anyone thought to shine a torch up the rainwater outlet in that particular area.
This is a case of 'no rocks unturned'?
If you are making Smithman move a body from the Smith sighting, however, your obstacles are the Chinese restaurant, another bar whose name escapes me, the rear entrance to the Cave Bar, the 24hr ATM, the Luz Tavern, the Ali Super convenience store, the Fortaleza, Chaplin's, the Marujo and two other restaurants south of the church. I am reasonably confident all of these were open on the night at the time of Smithman, all generating pedestrian and vehicular traffic.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on May 27, 2015, 02:31:49 PM
The rocks south of the church are problematical. I cannot remember a single statement mentioning searching any of the rocky areas, nor do I know if anyone thought to shine a torch up the rainwater outlet in that particular area.
This is a case of 'no rocks unturned'?
If you are making Smithman move a body from the Smith sighting, however, your obstacles are the Chinese restaurant, another bar whose name escapes me, the rear entrance to the Cave Bar, the 24hr ATM, the Luz Tavern, the Ali Super convenience store, the Fortaleza, Chaplin's, the Marujo and two other restaurants south of the church. I am reasonably confident all of these were open on the night at the time of Smithman, all generating pedestrian and vehicular traffic.
Endorsed about the various places to go past.
But this being Luz with it's mainly old people + very young families in early May, I wonder how many would have been around at 10pm?
You would know better than me , Shining.
Over to you.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2015, 08:24:37 PM
But this being Luz with it's mainly old people + very young families in early May, I wonder how many would have been around at 10pm?
You would know better than me , Shining.
Over to you.
May 2007 population breakdown. Let me see.
OC guests with a large number of kids. Mark Warner tourists on half board so unlikely to be outside of OC restaurants.
About a third not MW, as per Thomas Cook, minor operators, and owner bookings. Obviously, I cannot say whether these folks were eating in or eating out, with any degree of certainty.
The Smiths were eating out. There is one Portuguese chappie in the files who was eating out in Luz with his family at midnight, when he was called about the disappearance.
It's an interesting point.
Did all of these places stay open with no customers? Or was there custom and no-one thought it was odd so they didn't mention it as significant?
June and Paul Wright. Duke of Holland. One went earlier to help with the searches, while one stayed on until later, before also participating. Perhaps the one who stayed behind thought clearing up was more important than a missing child. I don't know. I haven't asked them.
Repeat to Sadie. It's an interesting point. They were open, but were they busy?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on May 27, 2015, 09:06:18 PM
OC guests with a large number of kids. Mark Warner tourists on half board so unlikely to be outside of OC restaurants.
About a third not MW, as per Thomas Cook, minor operators, and owner bookings. Obviously, I cannot say whether these folks were eating in or eating out, with any degree of certainty.
The Smiths were eating out. There is one Portuguese chappie in the files who was eating out in Luz with his family at midnight, when he was called about the disappearance.
It's an interesting point.
Did all of these places stay open with no customers? Or was there custom and no-one thought it was odd so they didn't mention it as significant?
June and Paul Wright. Duke of Holland. One went earlier to help with the searches, while one stayed on until later, before also participating. Perhaps the one who stayed behind thought clearing up was more important than a missing child. I don't know. I haven't asked them.
Repeat to Sadie. It's an interesting point. They were open, but were they busy?
Dunno Shining.
The Portuguese tend to eat later than Brits. Was it during the school hols? Cos older children might be taken out to eat later as might younger couples on their own. I dont think that Luz is a popular resort for younger adults tho, unless they have young children ... and then they would try to be home earlier I think.
Old fogies like me prefer earlier sittings.
I think it depends on how many Portuguese would have been eating with their later eating habits.
Do the PT locals have a particular favourite eating and watering spot? Or do they go to the tourist restaurants as well?
What do you think?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 28, 2015, 07:05:33 AM
The Portuguese tend to eat later than Brits. Was it during the school hols? Cos older children might be taken out to eat later as might younger couples on their own. I dont think that Luz is a popular resort for younger adults tho, unless they have young children ... and then they would try to be home earlier I think.
Old fogies like me prefer earlier sittings.
I think it depends on how many Portuguese would have been eating with their later eating habits.
Do the PT locals have a particular favourite eating and watering spot? Or do they go to the tourist restaurants as well?
What do you think?
Primeiro de Maio is a holiday. We had one heck of a lot of activity during the first week of May this year, but I don't know if that was a holiday, or even if it was, whether that was a driver in 2007.
There are some local favourites with PT locals, both for eating and drinking. Decent Portuguese on Primeiro de Maio, another on Rua Direito, a third south of the church. Probable watering hole is Rua Calheta at Fernandos.
PT tourists are different, as they have not worked out Luz. They stop folks (including me) and ask questions. Perhaps choice depends on cuisine type. Luz had South African, English, Portuguese, Italian, Chinese and Indian at the time. Perhaps it depends on price or recommendation.
PT local watering holes are more relevant. I would guess (which means I have no evidence) that Tractorman was in Fernandos having a sociable time with his PT mates. This flags up an issue. Why should not a PT local have been a typically PT bar in Luz on the night Madeleine went missing?
Anyone saying Tractorman had no reason to be in Luz that night (whether he was or wasn't) is talking rubbish.
Still one heck of a lot of open bars, open restaurants for any walker to avoid on that evening.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 10:20:26 AM
Primeiro de Maio is a holiday. We had one heck of a lot of activity during the first week of May this year, but I don't know if that was a holiday, or even if it was, whether that was a driver in 2007.
There are some local favourites with PT locals, both for eating and drinking. Decent Portuguese on Primeiro de Maio, another on Rua Direito, a third south of the church. Probable watering hole is Rua Calheta at Fernandos.
PT tourists are different, as they have not worked out Luz. They stop folks (including me) and ask questions. Perhaps choice depends on cuisine type. Luz had South African, English, Portuguese, Italian, Chinese and Indian at the time. Perhaps it depends on price or recommendation.
PT local watering holes are more relevant. I would guess (which means I have no evidence) that Tractorman was in Fernandos having a sociable time with his PT mates. This flags up an issue. Why should not a PT local have been a typically PT bar in Luz on the night Madeleine went missing?
Anyone saying Tractorman had no reason to be in Luz that night (whether he was or wasn't) is talking rubbish.
Still one heck of a lot of open bars, open restaurants for any walker to avoid on that evening.
We know that volunteer searchers gave selflessly of themselves when Madeleine was first found to be missing and in the following days.
I can find no record of the police either managing how the volunteers were used in the search or if a or if a search coordinator was appointed to keep records and to organise the volunteer search parties.
I agree that there is no reason to suspect anyone who may have been visiting one of the hostelries on the 3rd May.
However, based on the information which led a future PJ investigation to Euclides Monteiro it should be a matter of regret for anyone in a position of authority in the initial investigation that the fresh evidence trail which was at hand in 2007 was not followed either to rule this man in or rule him out from the inquiry.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 07, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
Why were they searching? were they looking for a 'missing' child who may have wandered by any chance? OR were they looking for an abductor with a child? would an abductor realy hang about to be found? where would the abductor hide in such a short timespan ( time line given and not verified by independant witneses)? Why were people calling her name? would an abductor let his/her/their/ abductee shout back?
They were looking for a missing child believed to have wandered. The abduction story came when a thought was given as to 'what will people say'...Indeed. they are still saying all these years later!
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: John on June 07, 2015, 11:58:21 AM
The search area appears to have been extremely large for a three-year-old who might have got out on her own and got lost. The thinking must therefore have been something along the lines of she was taken, transported and then abandoned or she was found wandering, taken and abandoned or even she was run over whilst wandering and hidden outside the village.
I cannot see why anyone would take the risk of abducting a youngster from her bed only to discard her outside the village, it has no logic.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 07, 2015, 12:41:08 PM
The search area appears to have been extremely large for a three-year-old who might have got out on her own and got lost. The thinking must therefore have been something along the lines of she was taken, transported and then abandoned or she was found wandering, taken and abandoned or even she was run over whilst wandering and hidden outside the village.
I cannot see why anyone would take the risk of abducting a youngster from her bed only to discard her outside the village, it has no logic.
Yes John I agree, all are very credible theories, however it grew when the 'abduction, instead of 'missing' was mentioned. The PJ thought they were looking for a missing child not an abducted one, that may have been why the 'crime scene' was not cordened off?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 01:05:09 PM
We know that volunteer searchers gave selflessly of themselves when Madeleine was first found to be missing and in the following days.
I can find no record of the police either managing how the volunteers were used in the search or if a or if a search coordinator was appointed to keep records and to organise the volunteer search parties.
I agree that there is no reason to suspect anyone who may have been visiting one of the hostelries on the 3rd May.
However, based on the information which led a future PJ investigation to Euclides Monteiro it should be a matter of regret for anyone in a position of authority in the initial investigation that the fresh evidence trail which was at hand in 2007 was not followed either to rule this man in or rule him out from the inquiry.
On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann. Major Seqeuira has not benefited from any formal training or accreditation in the management of searching for missing persons. The search officers with the exception of the search and rescue team dispatched from Lisbon had not benefited from any formal training in search procedures. The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 01:11:53 PM
On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann. Major Seqeuira has not benefited from any formal training or accreditation in the management of searching for missing persons. The search officers with the exception of the search and rescue team dispatched from Lisbon had not benefited from any formal training in search procedures. The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Were the police still searching on the assumption that Madeleine McCann had wakened and wandered seven days after her disappearance?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
The search area appears to have been extremely large for a three-year-old who might have got out on her own and got lost. The thinking must therefore have been something along the lines of she was taken, transported and then abandoned or she was found wandering, taken and abandoned or even she was run over whilst wandering and hidden outside the village.
I cannot see why anyone would take the risk of abducting a youngster from her bed only to discard her outside the village, it has no logic.
The search radius to include the woke wandered got lost possibility must = estimated walking speed x maximum walk time = several kilometre?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 02:31:16 PM
The search radius to include the woke wandered got lost possibility must = estimated walking speed x maximum walk time = several kilometre?
Was the theory that the child had been abducted running alongside the wakened and walked theory, with the allocation of resources and appropriate protocols for that being put in place?
No point in searching every inch of the maximum radius a child was capable of walking if the child had been bundled into a vehicle and removed from the scene before she was missed and the alarm raised.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: John on June 07, 2015, 02:40:46 PM
Were the police still searching on the assumption that Madeleine McCann had wakened and wandered seven days after her disappearance?
By the looks of it several possibilities were being actively pursued including abduction.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 03:42:44 PM
If a thorough search of the area hadn't been carried out they would have looked very silly had a body appeared in following days/weeks. The woke and wandered theory had to be explored as the abduction theory was proposed only by the parents with no supporting evidence. The unlocked door allowed the possibility of woke and wandered.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2015, 05:21:17 PM
If a thorough search of the area hadn't been carried out they would have looked very silly had a body appeared in following days/weeks. The woke and wandered theory had to be explored as the abduction theory was proposed only by the parents with no supporting evidence. The unlocked door allowed the possibility of woke and wandered.
But the open window ruled that theory out for the McCanns. If you enter through an unlocked door you don't open a window that can be seen by anybody in that car park. And if there was no evidence of entering via the window then you take a closer look at the people who lived there and their story.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 06:05:37 PM
But the open window ruled that theory out for the McCanns. If you enter through an unlocked door you don't open a window that can be seen by anybody in that car park. And if there was no evidence of entering via the window then you take a closer look at the people who lived there and their story.
Searches that night by the many volunteers in PDL were completely based on the wandered possibility. BTW is there anywhere anyone was told to not search?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
If a thorough search of the area hadn't been carried out they would have looked very silly had a body appeared in following days/weeks. The woke and wandered theory had to be explored as the abduction theory was proposed only by the parents with no supporting evidence. The unlocked door allowed the possibility of woke and wandered.
For seven days?
The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 08:23:12 PM
The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
You have to remember the GNR carried out the searches, helped by others. The PJ were carrying out other diligences.
Seven days is nothing. They spent much longer searching for April Jones;
It ended on 19 April, 28 weeks and four days after it began. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22642989
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 08:55:29 PM
The search area appears to have been extremely large for a three-year-old who might have got out on her own and got lost. The thinking must therefore have been something along the lines of she was taken, transported and then abandoned or she was found wandering, taken and abandoned or even she was run over whilst wandering and hidden outside the village.
I cannot see why anyone would take the risk of abducting a youngster from her bed only to discard her outside the village, it has no logic.
You may be overthinking this.
Try role playing police chief (not Amaral - a lot higher up). After other child disappearances in Portugal, this one is suddenly unique in world history. The media circus turns its spotlight on you. Do you 1) do what you normally do, and search within maybe 2km, or 2) get the GNR to search 15km so that no-one can say you didn't search enough?
It wasn't just the McCanns who went into territory never explored before.
If there was an abductor, I'd guess the media attention did not figure in the reckoning. Lots of winging it and hoping.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 08, 2015, 05:45:08 AM
But the open window ruled that theory out for the McCanns. If you enter through an unlocked door you don't open a window that can be seen by anybody in that car park. And if there was no evidence of entering via the window then you take a closer look at the people who lived there and their story.
If you have a key to the front door, don't know that the patio door is open, then opening the window/shutter is a way to distract people from the fact that you have a key.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 08, 2015, 05:53:31 AM
Is there anywhere anyone decided to search but was told to not?
I am not aware of this happening.
Of course, there were legal constraints, much along UK lines. No breaking and entering just because you felt like it. Permission of the owner to search, or reasonable cause + warrant.
Given the number of dead/absent owners, there would have been many properties not searched within Luz, let alone the larger search zone.
From memory, it was 400+ properties visited in Luz. That's visited, not searched, and there's a lot more than 400 properties in Luz.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2015, 04:06:00 PM
If you have a key to the front door, don't know that the patio door is open, then opening the window/shutter is a way to distract people from the fact that you have a key.
More importantly it's a good way of getting caught and those were tampered with after the fact.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 04:20:38 PM
If you have a key to the front door, don't know that the patio door is open, then opening the window/shutter is a way to distract people from the fact that you have a key.
That seems fairly obvious to me.
For some reason, however, considerable time was spent attempting to verify the source of the ink for the photos and none spent investigating the key issue.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2015, 08:45:24 PM
Does no one else think it is strange that two small girls went missing in such a small area, and then their mothers were both accused? That then that The PJ accused both of the mothers without a scrap of evidence, and then proceeded to use public opinion against both of the mothers.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2015, 08:48:36 PM
Does no one else think it is strange that two small girls went missing in such a small area, and then their mothers were both accused? That then that The PJ accused both of the mothers without a scrap of evidence, and then proceeded to use public opinion against both of the mothers.
There's also the common link of a (touted!) fridge ....
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2015, 08:51:24 PM
Does no one else think it is strange that two small girls went missing in such a small area, and then their mothers were both accused? That then that The PJ accused both of the mothers without a scrap of evidence, and then proceeded to use public opinion against both of the mothers.
I think it's more than strange...it's highly significant...and that amaral was involved in both cases
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2015, 08:55:09 PM
Does no one else think it is strange that two small girls went missing in such a small area, and then their mothers were both accused? That then that The PJ accused both of the mothers without a scrap of evidence, and then proceeded to use public opinion against both of the mothers.
Yeah, you would have thought he had a tick list, to work from. Thank god Kate wasn't as fragile as Leonor was.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2015, 09:13:13 PM
There's also the common link of a (touted!) fridge ....
And then some. Pig Farms. The Mother didn't want the child. Incest, come Swinging. Misogyny, basically.
That Amaral was some perverted whatsit.
Oh, only in my opinion, allegedly.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 09:42:25 PM
sorry posted wrong thread
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 09:34:03 PM
People assume there were very thorough searches inside the apartment, leaving no spot unturned. Not true. For example here in detail is the search conducted inside the apartment by the GNR station commander
"he did not enter the apartment, as it had already been searched, but instead remained outside"
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 10:04:23 PM
People assume there were very thorough searches inside the apartment, leaving no spot unturned. Not true. For example here in detail is the search conducted inside the apartment by the GNR station commander
"he did not enter the apartment, as it had already been searched, but instead remained outside"
I think it is a very small apartment with very few places where a small child could secrete herself or be secreted without being found if looked for.
Where else was there to look short of ripping the place to shreds, upturning beds and sofas etc ~ one can only imagine what would have been made of crime scene photos depicting that, particularly as I have read in another place only this evening criticism and suspicions because the crime scene looked too tidy.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 10:25:19 PM
I think it is a very small apartment with very few places where a small child could secrete herself or be secreted without being found if looked for.
Where else was there to look short of ripping the place to shreds, upturning beds and sofas etc ~ one can only imagine what would have been made of crime scene photos depicting that, particularly as I have read in another place only this evening criticism and suspicions because the crime scene looked too tidy.
Looking everywhere except inside a tiny circle at the exact centre of the search area is a mistake not unheard of in other cases.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 10:41:25 PM
Probably the most extreme case of failing to fully search the exact centre of a search area was in Polenza. 17 years it took them to solve, but that was admittedly a large building. For a case of not fully searching a smaller residence you need look no further than the Met area.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 11:25:01 PM
Probably the most extreme case of failing to fully search the exact centre of a search area was in Polenza. 17 years it took them to solve, but that was admittedly a large building. For a case of not fully searching a smaller residence you need look no further than the Met area.
uh-huh ... and ??
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 22, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
Probably the most extreme case of failing to fully search the exact centre of a search area was in Polenza. 17 years it took them to solve, but that was admittedly a large building. For a case of not fully searching a smaller residence you need look no further than the Met area.
That is a fascinating case, Pegasus. Which areas do you think were overlooked or not checked properly during searches?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 12:46:35 AM
Well some of those cases are small residences where people have said things like "oh no need to search in here we already have", but later it turned out they had missed somewhere.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 12:51:43 AM
Well some of those cases are small residences where people have said things like "oh no need to search in here we already have", but later it turned out they had missed somewhere.
How do you believe the body was removed from the apartment if it was still in situ at 10pm?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Anna on August 23, 2015, 12:52:54 AM
Well some of those cases are small residences where people have said things like "oh no need to search in here we already have", but later it turned out they had missed somewhere.
Are we still talking about the settee, Pegasus? or has it moved to the parents bedroom?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2015, 12:56:17 AM
Well some of those cases are small residences where people have said things like "oh no need to search in here we already have", but later it turned out they had missed somewhere.
A church tower is a place which is seldom frequented ... but in Praia da Luz ... the apartment has a small footprint and had Madeleine been overlooked at the time sometime in the last eight years a trace would have been found just as it was in Italy seventeen years after the event.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 01:07:58 AM
There are probably 6 locations inside the apartment which none of the statements specifically mention searching that evening.
A concealed cadaver is one thing (me -I'd have unscrewed the ventilation grille or put it up in a tree outside) but moving it without being seen & risking tracker dogs finding it after 10pm is quite another. How do you think a cadaver was moved elsewhere without being seen and didn't involve anyone other than the parents?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 01:34:50 AM
A church tower is a place which is seldom frequented ... but in Praia da Luz ... the apartment has a small footprint and had Madeleine been overlooked at the time sometime in the last eight years a trace would have been found just as it was in Italy seventeen years after the event.
Here's an example. A two year old was missing from her home. The parent "checked each room of the property twice over, opening drawers and cupboards and looking under the beds ". Police were called. "'Officers attended and made a search of the home". "Officers were dispatched to join neighbours and local community figures already searching surrounding homes, streets gardens and parks, as the police helicopter was deployed with thermal imaging cameras". Guess what, after two hours, the solution was in this case.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 01:48:36 AM
Here's an example. A two year old was missing from her home. The parent "checked each room of the property twice over, opening drawers and cupboards and looking under the beds ". Police were called. "'Officers attended and made a search of the home". "Officers were dispatched to join neighbours and local community figures already searching surrounding homes, streets gardens and parks, as the police helicopter was deployed with thermal imaging cameras". Guess what, after two hours, the solution was in this case.
The child was found sleeping in a suitcase?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Anna on August 23, 2015, 01:54:38 AM
Here's an example. A two year old was missing from her home. The parent "checked each room of the property twice over, opening drawers and cupboards and looking under the beds ". Police were called. "'Officers attended and made a search of the home". "Officers were dispatched to join neighbours and local community figures already searching surrounding homes, streets gardens and parks, as the police helicopter was deployed with thermal imaging cameras". Guess what, after two hours, the solution was in this case.
But where was the case?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 02:02:33 AM
We have a residence in which every room has been searched two or three times by the parent. And the residence was also searched by police. There is a suitcase in the bedroom. The parent had opened the suitcase and looked inside and found nothing. The solution is, believe it or not, in this case ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195223/Missing-year-old-home-asleep-suitcase.html Congrats Misty, right first time
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 02:24:10 AM
There was a suitcase in the bedroom - however the parent did look inside it in the early search and did not find the child in there...
That "2 year old" looks a little older than 2 & rather too large for that case. IMO. But, then again, it happened in Leicester so................... Where was the 2nd suitcase in 5a? It's conceivable that Madeleine could have hidden in the base of the settee, the base of the divan, in between the mattress &divan, between the two divans in the parents room, between the window wall & divan in her own room. It's equally conceivable she could have left the apartment before her parents went out at 8.30 and no proper check was ever made to ensure she was in her bed. None of that explains the open window, though, or the fact not a single person saw her anywhere other than where she should have been.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 02:46:59 AM
That "2 year old" looks a little older than 2 & rather too large for that case. IMO. But, then again, it happened in Leicester so................... Where was the 2nd suitcase in 5a? It's conceivable that Madeleine could have hidden in the base of the settee, the base of the divan, in between the mattress &divan, between the two divans in the parents room, between the window wall & divan in her own room. It's equally conceivable she could have left the apartment before her parents went out at 8.30 and no proper check was ever made to ensure she was in her bed. None of that explains the open window, though, or the fact not a single person saw her anywhere other than where she should have been.
2 is a journalist mistake IMO. The most amazing bit is "... but she had buried herself under the clothes" In the apartment there are several places which no statement specifically mentions searching and you've said some examples and the UK case suggests others.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 03:08:41 AM
2 is a journalist mistake IMO. The most amazing bit is "... but she had buried herself under the clothes" In the apartment there are several places which no statement specifically mentions searching.
If Madeleine was sleeping somewhere in the apartment, hidden from sight, sooner or later she would have woken up. Then there would have been tears.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2015, 02:23:04 PM
Here's an example. A two year old was missing from her home. The parent "checked each room of the property twice over, opening drawers and cupboards and looking under the beds ". Police were called. "'Officers attended and made a search of the home". "Officers were dispatched to join neighbours and local community figures already searching surrounding homes, streets gardens and parks, as the police helicopter was deployed with thermal imaging cameras". Guess what, after two hours, the solution was in this case.
She was in her bed asleep ... but may have been hiding and keeping one jump ahead of the searchers until she got tired.
Just read on ... to find where the little rascal had been hiding ...
I believe all the McCann baggage had been accounted for by the investigation ... if your supposition was correct, the bag and all its contents would have caused an alert.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2015, 02:30:11 PM
If Madeleine was sleeping somewhere in the apartment, hidden from sight, sooner or later she would have woken up. Then there would have been tears.
She would have heard her mummy and daddy crying ... she would definitely have emerged then.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 06:36:13 PM
Another case. A 5 year old boy was at home in the living room. The father went into the kitchen and when he returned to the living room the boy had vanished. The mother returned home and ran along the street screaming. Police were called. "We had 12 police officers out looking for him, police dogs, and the helicopter." "They searched the attic, they searched everywhere." “We even had bus drivers using their radios, and the taxi drivers were all looking.” So what do you think - was this an abduction, a wandering, or what? And who solved the case - was it the police dogs, or the helicopter with its heat seeking camera, or the 12 police officers, or a bus driver, or a taxi driver?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 06:58:15 PM
Another case. A 5 year old boy was at home in the living room. The father went into the kitchen and when he returned to the living room the boy had vanished. The mother returned home and ran along the street screaming. Police were called. "We had 12 police officers out looking for him, police dogs, and the helicopter." "They searched the attic, they searched everywhere." “We even had bus drivers using their radios, and the taxi drivers were all looking.” So what do you think - was this an abduction, a wandering, or what? And who solved the case - was it the police dogs, or the helicopter with its heat seeking camera, or the 12 police officers, or a bus driver, or a taxi driver?
Seriously, Pegasus - how much confidence do stories like this give you in sniffer dogs (or the police?) Under a giant bean bag within the home???
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 07:13:44 PM
Seriously, Pegasus - how much confidence do stories like this give you in sniffer dogs (or the police?) Under a giant bean bag within the home???
Correct. Asleep under a giant bean bag. And BTW this case was not solved by the police, it was solved by a six year old. Another example of incomplete search of the inside of a residence by parents and police. And believe it or not, a parent had actually looked under the bean bag. The reason the police dogs did not find the missing child is simple - they were deployed to search the entire area but excluding the exact centre of the search area, which was the inside of the residence.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2015, 07:23:31 PM
Correct. Asleep under a giant bean bag. And BTW this case was not solved by the police, it was solved by a six year old. Another example of incomplete search of the inside of a residence by parents and police. And believe it or not, a parent had actually looked under the bean bag. The reason the police dogs did not find the missing child is simple - they were deployed to search the entire area but excluding the exact centre of the search area, which was the inside of the residence.
I think the difference is that Madeleine was not in the apartment to be found when she awakened. She had been removed between her father's last check on the children and her mother raising the alarm on finding her gone.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 07:27:27 PM
Correct. Asleep under a giant bean bag. And BTW this case was not solved by the police, it was solved by a six year old. Another example of incomplete search of the inside of a residence by parents and police. And believe it or not, a parent had actually looked under the bean bag. The reason the police dogs did not find the missing child is simple - they were deployed to search the entire area but excluding the exact centre of the search area, which was the inside of the residence.
It was reported the police searched the attic. After the Tia Sharpe fiasco the previous year, do you really think that the sniffer dogs weren't deployed inside the residence? I understand where you are going with the human error aspect - which is why we have all questioned how thoroughly the entire close proximity to 5a was searched. In some ways, it's a pity Eddie's search remit was so limited.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 09:33:11 PM
It was reported the police searched the attic. After the Tia Sharpe fiasco the previous year, do you really think that the sniffer dogs weren't deployed inside the residence? I understand where you are going with the human error aspect - which is why we have all questioned how thoroughly the entire close proximity to 5a was searched. In some ways, it's a pity Eddie's search remit was so limited.
In the beanbag case I am sure the police search dogs were not deployed inside the house. If they had been, they would certainly have found the missing boy immediately. A six-year old detectivess solved the case after only about about 75 to 90 minutes. No cadaver dog was used.
In the Tia Sharpe case, the police search dogs used in the early days were deployed everywhere except inside the house. IMO it was many days later when a cadaver dog was first used, and taken into the house.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 10:57:45 PM
In the beanbag case I am sure the police search dogs were not deployed inside the house. If they had been, they would certainly have found the missing boy immediately. A six-year old detectivess solved the case after only about about 75 to 90 minutes. No cadaver dog was used.
In the Tia Sharpe case, the police search dogs used in the early days were deployed everywhere except inside the house. IMO it was many days later when a cadaver dog was first used, and taken into the house.
In the Tia Sharpe case, the police searched the grandmother's house 4 times with sniffer dogs. Unfortunately, they were looking for a living child and sniffer dogs are repelled by the scent of cadaver(although some sort of specialist dog did alert to the loft during the 4th search). It was only on the 5th occasion, when a specialist cadaver dog was brought in, that Tia's remains were located.
*snipped* Eighty police failed to find Tia’s body even though it lay only a few feet from her bedroom in her grandmother’s house.
They spent a week scouring hundreds of hours of CCTV and at least a dozen officers, with dogs, searched the house no fewer than four times.
But astonishing blunders meant the 12-year-old’s body remained undiscovered at the small property in Croydon, South London.
In the beanbag case, I see no reason why the dogs would not have gone into the house. The fact that an attic, most probably inaccessible to a 5 year old. was searched indicates that the police had actually "learned lessons" from the Tia case.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
I've never posted any such theory Misty. It would have been impossible for anyone to do that without being seen IMO.
I know you haven't posted that precise theory. Your questioning of how thoroughly the apartment was searched at 10pm & afterwards was merely suggestive of Madeleine still being inside during that period. It would not have been impossible for a child or her body to have been smuggled out after 10pm - just highly improbable without involving another member of the Taps group.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 11:30:46 PM
In the Tia Sharpe case, the police searched the grandmother's house 4 times with sniffer dogs. Unfortunately, they were looking for a living child and sniffer dogs are repelled by the scent of cadaver(although some sort of specialist dog did alert to the loft during the 4th search). It was only on the 5th occasion, when a specialist cadaver dog was brought in, that Tia's remains were located.
*snipped* Eighty police failed to find Tia’s body even though it lay only a few feet from her bedroom in her grandmother’s house.
They spent a week scouring hundreds of hours of CCTV and at least a dozen officers, with dogs, searched the house no fewer than four times.
But astonishing blunders meant the 12-year-old’s body remained undiscovered at the small property in Croydon, South London.
In the beanbag case, I see no reason why the dogs would not have gone into the house. The fact that an attic, most probably inaccessible to a 5 year old. was searched indicates that the police had actually "learned lessons" from the Tia case.
I have a link somewhere which says that in the beanbag case, police dogs searched all around the house (around = not inside) and that the search inside was by two police officers. Re officers who worked on the TS case learning from it, are you including our current SIO?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 11:43:03 PM
I have a link somewhere which says that in the beanbag case, police dogs searched all around the house (around = not inside) and that the search inside was by two police officers. Re officers who worked on the TS case learning from it, are you including our current SIO?
I would hope that our current SIO would have already been trained to leave no beanbag unturned. The recent high profile cases would have been imprinted in the memories of those closest to them. However, whether or not the learning of lessons involved re-writing existing manuals on procedures when children go missing & all officers being re-trained, I have no idea. If the beanbag case did not entail the two officers spending at least an hour satisfying themselves that the boy was not in the home or its grounds, then common sense as well as competence was sadly lacking. All the more reason to utilise the sniffer dogs - unless they also failed on that occasion.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 11:50:36 PM
I know you haven't posted that precise theory. Your questioning of how thoroughly the apartment was searched at 10pm & afterwards was merely suggestive of Madeleine still being inside during that period. It would not have been impossible for a child or her body to have been smuggled out after 10pm - just highly improbable without involving another member of the Taps group.
After the alarm was raised at about 10pm, I don't see how anyone, with or without a helper, could have done that without being seen. Because there were lots of people all around the immediate area of the apartment, searching.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 12:03:28 AM
I would hope that our current SIO would have already been trained to leave no beanbag unturned. The recent high profile cases would have been imprinted in the memories of those closest to them. However, whether or not the learning of lessons involved re-writing existing manuals on procedures when children go missing & all officers being re-trained, I have no idea. If the beanbag case did not entail the two officers spending at least an hour satisfying themselves that the boy was not in the home or its grounds, then common sense as well as competence was sadly lacking. All the more reason to utilise the sniffer dogs - unless they also failed on that occasion.
Re who worked on TS case http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2013/04/04/may-2013-vogue-true-crime Re beanbag case the dogs (these were ordinary search dogs not EVRD) were used outside but were not taken inside the residence, if they had been they would have solved the case immediately.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 12:10:54 AM
After the alarm was raised at about 10pm, I don't see how anyone, with or without a helper, could have done that without being seen. Because there were lots of people all around the immediate area of the apartment, searching.
Who was with Kate when Fiona went out to search briefly in the early aftermath? Where was Rachel? Next door? Where was Jane? Three doors along? At what stage was the front door unlocked/opened?
I don't believe at all that any of the group were involved in anything untoward - but I think there may have been small windows of opportunity for a child to be moved from 5a to one of the friends' apartments without being seen as most of the public activity was taking place at the rear in the early stages.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 12:17:00 AM
The usual procedure in almost all missing child cases seems to be that the ordinary search dogs deployed in the first hours are not taken everywhere around but not inside the residence. But here is an RCMP case where, most unusually, an ordinary search dog was allowed to search inside the residence http://globalnews.ca/news/994835/prince-george-rcmp-service-dog-finds-missing-child-asleep-in-his-own-home/
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 12:33:44 AM
Who was with Kate when Fiona went out to search briefly in the early aftermath? Where was Rachel? Next door? Where was Jane? Three doors along? At what stage was the front door unlocked/opened?
I don't believe at all that any of the group were involved in anything untoward - but I think there may have been small windows of opportunity for a child to be moved from 5a to one of the friends' apartments without being seen as most of the public activity was taking place at the rear in the early stages.
I understand your points, but very soon after the alarm there were other unconnected people searching all around the area near the apartment. And before long probably a hundred or more, and this continued for days. It would be very difficult for anyone to walk past many people without being seen.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 12:44:38 AM
I understand your points, but very soon after the alarm there were other unconnected people searching all around the area near the apartment. And before long probably a hundred or more, and this continued for days. It would be very difficult for anyone to walk past many people without being seen.
Hypothetically - how long would it have taken to get from the front door of 5A to the front door of 5B carrying something which was obscured by the wall from sight of anyone in the car park?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 12:50:57 AM
The usual procedure in almost all missing child cases seems to be that the ordinary search dogs deployed in the first hours are not taken everywhere around but not inside the residence. But here is an RCMP case where, most unusually, an ordinary search dog was allowed to search inside the residence http://globalnews.ca/news/994835/prince-george-rcmp-service-dog-finds-missing-child-asleep-in-his-own-home/
Thank you for that, and the Vogue article. The Canadian case is an excellent example of why a trained sniffer dog should be deployed immediately on all cases such as this. Such a lot of distress (and waste of resources) was avoided. It will be interesting to read how the dogs were deployed in the tragic case of Amber Peat when the inquest takes place.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 12:55:12 AM
Hypothetically - how long would it have taken to get from the front door of 5A to the front door of 5B carrying something which was obscured by the wall from sight of anyone in the car park?
About 12 seconds IMO but that apartment is completely ruled out IMO, also that wall is not very high
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 12:57:29 AM
I understand your points, but very soon after the alarm there were other unconnected people searching all around the area near the apartment. And before long probably a hundred or more, and this continued for days. It would be very difficult for anyone to walk past many people without being seen.
I'm not sure where you are going with the suggestion Madeleine could have been overlooked by the early searchers in the immediate location where she went missing.
What do you think might have happened to her? If something was concealing her during the searches, what might that have been and happened when she wakened?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 01:02:04 AM
Thank you for that, and the Vogue article. The Canadian case is an excellent example of why a trained sniffer dog should be deployed immediately on all cases such as this. Such a lot of distress (and waste of resources) was avoided. It will be interesting to read how the dogs were deployed in the tragic case of Amber Peat when the inquest takes place.
Yes, deploying an ordinary sniffer dog inside a s a p would have solved many cases. But usually that is the one place it is not deployed. The chest-of-drawers case is a rare exception. What would have happened if Astro had not been allowed to search inside that residence?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 01:12:18 AM
Yes, deploying an ordinary sniffer dog inside a s a p would have solved many cases. But usually that is the one place it is not deployed. The chest-of-drawers case is a rare exception. What would have happened if Astro had not been allowed to search inside that residence?
There is a possibility the child would have suffocated before being located. That would depend on various factors.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 11:32:02 AM
About 12 seconds IMO but that apartment is completely ruled out IMO, also that wall is not very high
From memory, the wall is chest height along that short stretch ..... but the car park was empty almost all the time. Apart from the 30 minute visits +a couple of extras because Janes little one was poorly no-one was around.
A child could be carried along there hidden imo., but I dont think she was . I think she was likely passed over the wall between the flats and the car park.
But none of us actually know.
Do we?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 12:14:53 PM
From memory, the wall is chest height along that short stretch ..... but the car park was empty almost all the time. Apart from the 30 minute visits +a couple of extras because Janes little one was poorly no-one was around.
A child could be carried along there hidden imo., but I dont think she was . I think she was likely passed over the wall between the flats and the car park. But none of us actually know.
Do we?
http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/040507_MR_FORENSIC_AT_MCCANN_APARTMENT%20(3)_2.jpg Chest-height or waist-height? After the alarm, anyone walking along there would be seen IMO.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 04:17:00 PM
http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/040507_MR_FORENSIC_AT_MCCANN_APARTMENT%20(3)_2.jpg Chest-height or waist-height? After the alarm, anyone walking along there would be seen IMO.
Only someone with no reason to be there would be noticed. No-one reported seeing Gerry or Diane testing the window shutter - and that happened after the alarm was raised.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
I'm not sure where you are going with the suggestion Madeleine could have been overlooked by the early searchers in the immediate location where she went missing.
What do you think might have happened to her? If something was concealing her during the searches, what might that have been and happened when she wakened?
I believe Pegasus has already mooted the possibility that Madeleine's body was hidden behind a bath panel, correct me if I'm wrong...
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 07:55:01 PM
I believe Pegasus has already mooted the possibility that Madeleine's body was hidden behind a bath panel, correct me if I'm wrong...
No, I was only pointing out there is a volume of space enclosed there at non-tap end because the bath is shorter than the room. Anyway since then I looked closer and there is IMO no removeable panel so it is completely inaccessible volume, which would IMO make your suggestion impossible. It would also IMO be ruled out by the fact that Eddie was filmed standing on top of this enclosed volume and he said nothing.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 08:08:19 PM
http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/040507_MR_FORENSIC_AT_MCCANN_APARTMENT%20(3)_2.jpg Chest-height or waist-height? After the alarm, anyone walking along there would be seen IMO.
With your photograph, The photographer is standing fairly close in an elevated position so looking slightly down. The policeman is set right back so he would appear higher relative to the wall. Tis difficult to describe, but it gives a false impression..
Policemen are usually tall. Burglars are often weasely little blokes. This photo was taken from fairly close to the wall. Remember that the place was on a hill and the car park was elevated relative to the pathway and the closer one got to the wall the more one looked down on it.
The photo I show below is also taken from a slightly raised position but the PJ are close to the wall, which decreases somewhat the falseness. I think that on the path side, the wall would have been approx chest height for many burglars, especially if the viewer had been well back from the wall so the ground level differences made a lesser visual difference.
Everybody that walked across that parking lot or on the street was well back so the ground level differences had a lesser effect to what could be seen of any man walking along that path. Getting closer as they approached would improve the situation in one way, but then they were looking in absolutely the wrong direction
Anyway, I personally do not think it likely that Madeleine went along that path, either carried or under her own steam. I think that she was passed over that wall with here head changing from the lifters right arm to the carriers left arm in the exchange.
See where the sill is relative to big man [ cop] PeterMacs waist and chest, then take in the difference of sill height to wall height.
I am inclined to think that even on him the wall would have been about chest height.
Do you agree ?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 08:21:40 PM
My point Sadie is this: if anyone of any dimensions had removed a child from that apartment after the very first searches began, by any method, along that path or by any other route, he or she would certainly have been seen.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 09:14:49 PM
My point Sadie is this: if anyone of any dimensions had removed a child from that apartment after the very first searches began, by any method, along that path or by any other route, he or she would certainly have been seen.
I agree after the searches, with people frequently coming and going .... and even examining the shutters .... and probably going in and out of 5A via the front door quite often. At that stage 5A would be the focus of everyones attention.
But I do think thta it was just about possible for a smallish man to have carried Madeleine , more or less hidden from view by that wall at times when no-one was around much. Same as I can understand why nobody noticed that the shutters were slightly lifted.
I dont think it happened tho. I think that she was passed over that wall by the lifter to Tannerman.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 09:59:50 PM
I agree after the searches, with people frequently coming and going .... and even examining the shutters .... and probably going in and out of 5A via the front door quite often. At that stage 5A would be the focus of everyones attention.
But I do think thta it was just about possible for a smallish man to have carried Madeleine , more or less hidden from view by that wall at times when no-one was around much. Same as I can understand why nobody noticed that the shutters were slightly lifted.
I dont think it happened tho. I think that she was passed over that wall by the lifter to Tannerman.
Sadie - do you think your watcher on the balcony of Block 4 gave the abductor the all-clear when Jez was walking up the road? There was no real gap in time between Gerry exiting the rear gate & Jez stopping. Jane missed crossing paths with Tannerman by seconds - if Jez had not stopped to chat to Gerry he would have been at least at the top of the road when Tannerman crossed the junction.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 10:25:38 PM
The shutters were fully raised Sadie. Back on topic, IMO various places in the apartment were far from fully searched. For example IMO the clasp bag was either in a drawer, or in the wardrobe, exactly as honestly stated. But the GNR/PJ that night probably didn't notice it because they never searched all the drawers and wardrobe shelves IMO.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 11:02:54 PM
Sadie - do you think your watcher on the balcony of Block 4 gave the abductor the all-clear when Jez was walking up the road? There was no real gap in time between Gerry exiting the rear gate & Jez stopping. Jane missed crossing paths with Tannerman by seconds - if Jez had not stopped to chat to Gerry he would have been at least at the top of the road when Tannerman crossed the junction.
misty - It is important to realise that the balcony on Block 4 is set back about a metre. This means that a watcher there, whilst having wonderful sight in almost every direction, cannot see anyone coming up the road on the same side as block 4. Cos Block 4 building is in the way. No view there at all. He didn't know Jez was there - out of sight.
I also think it is important to realise that the street lamp immediately opposite the steps up to 5A is also very close to Block 4 balcony. The watcher would want to keep out of the light , in the shadow.
I think he saw Gerry leave 5A opposite, immediately signalled the lifter and Tannerman [flash of his torch?] to go ahead and then without hesitation, he left the balcony and headed for the getaway vehicle. This involved going down internal stairs and thru corridors out into the back garden of block 4. And doing it quietly.
Thru the back garden and out of the back gate to the get away vehicle. I think this was parked near the gate on the liittle car park opposite the Tapas Reception.
The wall in front of those parked cars is high. I dont think he even realsed that Jez and Gerry were chatting, just around the corner, JUST out of sight.
Earlier, to see the spot on the corner of the alleyway and astride the gutter, he would have had to leave the shadow on the balcony. So I dont think he bothered to watch Gerry after he left and he was totally unaware of Jez.
It had been practiced imo and it was planned to perfection.
The shock came when Jane T appeared and he tried to drive up for pick up, first seeing Gerry and Jez in the way, then seeing Jane witnessing Tannerman with Madeleine.
I think he hot footed it off in the get-away vehicle, driving south and leaving Tannerman in the lurch.
These are just my thoughts but they could be the way that things happened. Everything is feasible
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 11:44:31 PM
A cunning plan Sadie, except there is no communal way to get through block 6 like that. Your lookout/driver would need to have rented an apartment there to do that. BTW, in this theory of yours, what was the motive of your perps?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 12:06:49 AM
misty - It is important to realise that the balcony on Block 4 is set back about a metre. This means that a watcher there, whilst having wonderful sight in almost every direction, cannot see anyone coming up the road on the same side as block 4. Cos Block 4 building is in the way. No view there at all. He didn't know Jez was there - out of sight.
I also think it is important to realise that the street lamp immediately opposite the steps up to 5A is also very close to Block 4 balcony. The watcher would want to keep out of the light , in the shadow.
I think he saw Gerry leave 5A opposite, immediately signalled the lifter and Tannerman [flash of his torch?] to go ahead and then without hesitation, he left the balcony and headed for the getaway vehicle. This involved going down internal stairs and thru corridors out into the back garden of block 4. And doing it quietly.
Thru the back garden and out of the back gate to the get away vehicle. I think this was parked near the gate on the liittle car park opposite the Tapas Reception.
The wall in front of those parked cars is high. I dont think he even realsed that Jez and Gerry were chatting, just around the corner, JUST out of sight.
Earlier, to see the spot on the corner of the alleyway and astride the gutter, he would have had to leave the shadow on the balcony. So I dont think he bothered to watch Gerry after he left and he was totally unaware of Jez.
It had been practiced imo and it was planned to perfection.
The shock came when Jane T appeared and he tried to drive up for pick up, first seeing Gerry and Jez in the way, then seeing Jane witnessing Tannerman with Madeleine.
I think he hot footed it off in the get-away vehicle, driving south and leaving Tannerman in the lurch.
These are just my thoughts but they could be the way that things happened. Everything is feasible
Sorry - Pegasus has just pointed out correctly it was a Block 6 balcony. I thought the balcony was the public one at the end of the rear of the block (where the press took a photo from) and there was a excellent view of the Tapas Bar exit and the road. My laptop went kaput a few weeks ago & I lost all my saved images. I can't find the photo online atm. Where was Jez coming from, exactly?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 12:07:58 AM
A cunning plan Sadie, except there is no communal way to get through block 6 like that. Your lookout/driver would need to have rented an apartment there to do that. BTW, in this theory of yours, what was the motive of your perps?
Jeez, block 6 not block 4 ! Both Misty and I got it wrong. *&*%£ My excuse is a senior moment. What's yours misty ? 8(0(*
Now I thought that there was a way thru. Yonks ago, someone somewhere said so, but I dont actually know if that is true.
How many flats are there on each floor?
Guess they could have rented a flat, or even opened a flat illicitly, if they have access to keys, as they seem to have.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
Reason: Abduction of a little girl, in this case to order.
The same as the string of abductions since 1991 , roughly one every two years., but not to order generally previously.
I would like to point out that this is not my main theory. None of this has gone to SY, but it did seem quite feasible... and still is with stolen or borrowed keys and illicit entry to a flat in the building.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 12:18:22 AM
There are 5 on the ground floor
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 12:35:05 AM
Sorry - Pegasus has just pointed out correctly it was a Block 6 balcony. I thought the balcony was the public one at the end of the rear of the block (where the press took a photo from) and there was a excellent view of the Tapas Bar exit and the road. My laptop went kaput a few weeks ago & I lost all my saved images. I can't find the photo online atm. Where was Jez coming from, exactly?
Yep it is a sort of public one, but the public would have to be awfully cheeky to use it. But there is open access from the garden at the Northern end of the building. I wouldn't dream of going up there if I didn't live there as it is not intended for public use, I think. It is situated immediately across the road from the patio area of, and steps up to 5A.
By leaning out , even standing in the NW corner of the balcony , the Tapas restaurant and bar can be seen, but then any watcher would be exposed to the full light from the street lamp. I dont think they would do that .
This is part of the view from there. However, a watcher keeping in the shadows would not be able to view so far to the left. He would have to lean out or move north into the light of the street lamp to see all this.
Sorry the image is so small. I couldn't find the normal sized image .... seem to have been wiped
ETA. Have gone into Mccannfiles as Shining suggested, but the image there is small too ! Why the change? http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrearaptd.jpg.w180h135.jpg (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrearaptd.jpg.w180h135.jpg)
[Four things have vanished / been wiped in the past 4 days as mentioned by different posters on here] £5%4%
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 12:40:38 AM
Sorry - Pegasus has just pointed out correctly it was a Block 6 balcony. I thought the balcony was the public one at the end of the rear of the block (where the press took a photo from) and there was a excellent view of the Tapas Bar exit and the road. My laptop went kaput a few weeks ago & I lost all my saved images. I can't find the photo online atm. Where was Jez coming from, exactly?
Jez was coming from the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception, but I think [needs checking] that he had walked north on the eastern pavement to get there.. He was totally out of sight to the watcher.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 25, 2015, 09:59:23 AM
Do you know exactly where the laundry store/garage near Fuji Palms, as referred to by Stephen Carpenter in his rogatory, is located?
Sorry, no.
The cleaners talk about having their lunch in the laundry area. This suggests it was on the Ocean Club, but no-one says where.
Parking a laundry van outside Fuji Palms makes perfect sense. It is the easiest way to get laundry in/out to/from the Palms complex. Personally, I'd reckon this person was Mario Marreiros, but I cannot be sure, plus Mario had every right to be there.
As to the garage.... Hmmmn. AFAIK, Mario lived outside Luz, so I don't think he is Garageman.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 05:35:06 PM
The cleaners talk about having their lunch in the laundry area. This suggests it was on the Ocean Club, but no-one says where.
Parking a laundry van outside Fuji Palms makes perfect sense. It is the easiest way to get laundry in/out to/from the Palms complex. Personally, I'd reckon this person was Mario Marreiros, but I cannot be sure, plus Mario had every right to be there.
As to the garage.... Hmmmn. AFAIK, Mario lived outside Luz, so I don't think he is Garageman.
The OC laundry was in same set of buildings as Tapas IMO. The town also had normal laundries open to general public.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2015, 07:07:39 PM
The OC laundry was in same set of buildings as Tapas IMO. The town also had normal laundries open to general public.
You may be right, but to me that doesn't make sense.
Why take mountains of washing such a long way from the nearest parking place.
It is also a beautiful part of the complex. Why mar it with laundry being wheeled to and fro .... and the sounds and smells of a laundry? As far as I aware there is only one way into the Tapas area and that is thru the tapas receptioon with steps on either side, thius difficulties for wheeled laundry carriers.
I always wondered, and it is only wondered, if the laundry was just south of Robert Murats mums villa in the buildings there? There is quite a wide walkway/road alongside the Murats, and it finishes at a dead end IIRC.
Surely the laundry would be close to a vehicle parking place?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 07:48:54 PM
You may be right, but to me that doesn't make sense.
Why take mountains of washing such a long way from the nearest parking place.
It is also a beautiful part of the complex. Why mar it with laundry being wheeled to and fro .... and the sounds and smells of a laundry? As far as I aware there is only one way into the Tapas area and that is thru the tapas receptioon with steps on either side, thius difficulties for wheeled laundry carriers.
I always wondered, and it is only wondered, if the laundry was just south of Robert Murats mums villa in the buildings there? There is quite a wide walkway/road alongside the Murats, and it finishes at a dead end IIRC.
Surely the laundry would be close to a vehicle parking place?
The OC laundry is next to vehicle parking. Look at a map. Have a virtual stroll. There is a gate onto that side road. This is also how Tapas restaurant gets food deliveries.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 08:05:24 PM
OC laundry van just outside OC laundry (Unless those are piles of paperwork like people imagine they see on the sideboard?) That gate gives access for Tapas food deliveries and OC laundry.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 27, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Left click on the small image and you get the big image in sitebuilder. Right click on the large image and use 'Save as' from the menu.
It's small because of the sheer number of images on the page. Putting most of the images as thumbnails cuts the traffic, cuts the cost, and loads the page quicker.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2015, 11:09:35 AM
Left click on the small image and you get the big image in sitebuilder. Right click on the large image and use 'Save as' from the menu.
It's small because of the sheer number of images on the page. Putting most of the images as thumbnails cuts the traffic, cuts the cost, and loads the page quicker.
Thanks Shining, I have tried that .... BUT it doesn't work for me 8(8-))
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2015, 11:31:10 AM
The OC laundry is next to vehicle parking. Look at a map. Have a virtual stroll. There is a gate onto that side road. This is also how Tapas restaurant gets food deliveries.
You are quite right Pegasus. There does appear to be a door into a space underneath the restaurant and area around. It is rather narow tho.
Further along, there appears to be a garage door under an area just east of the restaurant. Could this be the mystery garage mentioned earlier. The one that someone was staying in .... complete, they said, with some toys?
Thinking about it, the double doors like for a garage, seem much better for the laundry, but the van is parked a good distance away. You dont think that the laundry van is one coming around to service the villas by any chance ?
Or do you KNOW that the laundry is there?
Have to dash now, loads to do
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 11:56:08 AM
You are quite right Pegasus. There does appear to be a door into a space underneath the restaurant and area around. It is rather narow tho.
Further along, there appears to be a garage door under an area just east of the restaurant. Could this be the mystery garage mentioned earlier. The one that someone was staying in .... complete, they said, with some toys?
Thinking about it, the double doors like for a garage, seem much better for the laundry, but the van is parked a good distance away. You dont think that the laundry van is one coming around to service the villas by any chance ?
Or do you KNOW that the laundry is there? Have to dash now, loads to do
There is a statement somewhere saying the OC laundry is same location as Tapas. The small white gate is IMO delivery and staff access to OC laundry and Tapas restaurant. Re the small building further east with double door to street. On the flat roof of this building is seating under a sideless roof where kidsclub children ate tea, see statements. The 4 small windows on right are the M and F toilets - this advanced deduction was made by looking at other side of building and reading the toilet sign. The larger window to the left I don't know but a guess is that might be a room containing pool pump/filtration machinery and supplies? And the double door would be to access that.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 27, 2015, 12:36:06 PM
Excellent. Thank you Shining. It didn't work for me! And i am sure that I did the right things, they were simple enough to follow.
Could it be something to do with my computer, it is on the blink a good deal.
Or could it be to do with my links to this forum?
The Mossad MFI CUA and other organisations are all over the place, you never know when they're watching you or after you...I've had strange goings in with my computer too ever since I posted in this case, it's freaky sometimes..I used all the Microsoft updates religiously and had an antivirus programme as well....even if it was nothing to do with them I am sure there are people with know how who can tamper
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 02:49:15 AM
No. The long garage described in SC statement is in the apartment building due north of block 5.
You mean block 2? Where do you think it is, because I can't see a garage. The only road access to Block 2 is to the north of the building, into a car park.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 03:02:50 AM
You mean block 2? Where do you think it is, because I can't see a garage. The only road access to Block 2 is to the north of the building, into a car park.
Yes Misty it was previously block 2 on that outofdate resort map and it has about 8 garage doors on south side
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 03:21:26 AM
Yes Misty it was previously block 2 on that outofdate resort map and it has about 8 garage doors on south side
You are referring to the raised block almost immediately opposite Block 5, yes? - the one to the left of the walkway from Rua Agostinho da Silva? I can't see where a vehicle can get from the north side to the south side of the block.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2015, 08:09:05 AM
The Mossad MFI CUA and other organisations are all over the place, you never know when they're watching you or after you...I've had strange goings in with my computer too ever since I posted in this case, it's freaky sometimes..I used all the Microsoft updates religiously and had an antivirus programme as well....even if it was nothing to do with them I am sure there are people with know how who can tamper
It's probably the elite....
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 08:13:12 AM
The Mossad MFI CUA and other organisations are all over the place, you never know when they're watching you or after you...I've had strange goings in with my computer too ever since I posted in this case, it's freaky sometimes..I used all the Microsoft updates religiously and had an antivirus programme as well....even if it was nothing to do with them I am sure there are people with know how who can tamper
Ooo-er ... poor mercury !!
You'll have to get the Police onto the MFI, CUA and the Mossad
Maybe they will get you it sussed.
*&*%£
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 12:13:16 PM
You are referring to the raised block almost immediately opposite Block 5, yes? - the one to the left of the walkway from Rua Agostinho da Silva? I can't see where a vehicle can get from the north side to the south side of the block.
Yes. Stand on Rua Ramalhete at the north end of the walkway, what do you see between the walkway and this building?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 01:01:05 PM
UK 2013. A 3 yr old boy was put to bed at about 8.40 pm but when checked at about 9pm was discovered to be missing. The parent frantically ransacked the whole house, including wardrobe, cupboards, drawers, recesses, and under bed. Police were called and searched the house. Police sniffer dogs were used to search the surrounding area. A search helicopter was deployed. A moorland rescue team was called in to help search. A large number of volunteers from the community helped in the search. The parent said the child was capable of getting out the front door, and possibly heard a clicking noise from it. It was dark and raining. The was a stream at the end of the garden. A sibling was on a sleepover a few houses away just round the corner.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 01:29:58 PM
Yes. Stand on Rua Ramalhete at the north end of the walkway, what do you see between the walkway and this building?
I see an additional area of paving which possibly leads to the south facing side of the block. The presence of the low bush at the end of the paving before you would have to turn sharp right makes me think that this is not a route for vehicles. I'm only seeing what appears to be small gardens from a satellite view. Have you been there & seen any garages? However - disregard that block and look at the block to the east, follow Agostina up around the corner nearly to the junction with Ramalhete. On the left is a large low gate, and there is what seems to be a garage door underneath the apartments at a 90° angle to the building. I think this is the garage being referred to.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 02:01:05 PM
I see an additional area of paving which possibly leads to the south facing side of the block. The presence of the low bush at the end of the paving before you would have to turn sharp right makes me think that this is not a route for vehicles. I'm only seeing what appears to be small gardens from a satellite view. Have you been there & seen any garages? However - disregard that block and look at the block to the east, follow Agostina up around the corner nearly to the junction with Ramalhete. On the left is a large low gate, and there is what seems to be a garage door underneath the apartments at a 90° angle to the building. I think this is the garage being referred to.
That is the vehicle access - there are definitely 8 garages on south side - they are integrated into the apartment building, under the balconies, and that is why you don't see them from above. IMO this is the building SC describes, not the one to east
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 02:03:01 PM
I see an additional area of paving which possibly leads to the south facing side of the block. The presence of the low bush at the end of the paving before you would have to turn sharp right makes me think that this is not a route for vehicles. I'm only seeing what appears to be small gardens from a satellite view. Have you been there & seen any garages? However - disregard that block and look at the block to the east, follow Agostina up around the corner nearly to the junction with Ramalhete. On the left is a large low gate, and there is what seems to be a garage door underneath the apartments at a 90° angle to the building. I think this is the garage being referred to.
Good find, Misty.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 03:13:37 PM
UK 2013. A 3 yr old boy was put to bed at about 8.40 pm but when checked at about 9pm was discovered to be missing. The parent frantically ransacked the whole house, including wardrobe, cupboards, drawers, recesses, and under bed. Police were called and searched the house. Police sniffer dogs were used to search the surrounding area. A search helicopter was deployed. A moorland rescue team was called in to help search. A large number of volunteers from the community helped in the search. The parent said the child was capable of getting out the front door, and possibly heard a clicking noise from it. It was dark and raining. The was a stream at the end of the garden. A sibling was on a sleepover a few houses away just round the corner.
Well, it wasn't this case http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/story/2014-02-21/police-search-for-missing-3-year-old-boy/
as he was found in the kitchen cupboard asleep under a pile of carrier bags
Can't find a 2013 UK one citing the same circumstances you have quoted. Lots of other, sometimes tragic, cases abroad, though of 3 & 4 year olds wandering.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 03:26:02 PM
That is the vehicle access - there are definitely 8 garages on south side - they are integrated into the apartment building, under the balconies, and that is why you don't see them from above. IMO this is the building SC describes, not the one to east
No, sorry, still not seeing it. The access path is level, not sloping down to get to garages at a lower level than the ground floor apartments. The aerial view shows greenery/garden in 4 places so how would there be access to 8 garages? Not enough room to manoeuvre in & out in my opinion. However, if you can tell me you have been there & seen them I will accept that.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 03:31:12 PM
Well, it wasn't this case http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/story/2014-02-21/police-search-for-missing-3-year-old-boy/
as he was found in the kitchen cupboard asleep under a pile of carrier bags
Can't find a 2013 UK one citing the same circumstances you have quoted. Lots of other, sometimes tragic, cases abroad, though of 3 & 4 year olds wandering.
No the 3yr-old I described was definitely not found in the kitchen cupboard asleep. Your guess of the distance the child travelled is incorrect. It's not surprising the helicopter and a moorland rescue team didn't find the child.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
No, sorry, still not seeing it. The access path is level, not sloping down to get to garages at a lower level than the ground floor apartments. The aerial view shows greenery/garden in 4 places so how would there be access to 8 garages? Not enough room to manoeuvre in & out in my opinion. However, if you can tell me you have been there & seen them I will accept that.
Never been there but recessed in between your gardens are balcony areas and under those are garages.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 03:47:57 PM
No the 3yr-old I described was definitely not found in the kitchen cupboard asleep. Your guess of the distance the child travelled is incorrect. It's not surprising the helicopter and a moorland rescue team didn't find the child.
I assume from what you have quoted that the boy was found alive at the sleepover party.
Unlike this poor child http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2682911/Relative-missing-five-year-old-Canadian-boy-grandparents-taken-questioning-disappearance.html
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 04:06:43 PM
I assume from what you have quoted that the boy was found alive at the sleepover party.
Unlike this poor child http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2682911/Relative-missing-five-year-old-Canadian-boy-grandparents-taken-questioning-disappearance.html
No not at the sleepover. And not in the stream at the bottom of the garden. He was found somewhere it would have been impossible for the search helicopter to fly. And it would have been interesting trying to send the whole of the Dartmoor Rescue Team there. "let's split up - you three search at the head end and we'll cover the foot end, look out for spiders" Yes asleep under the bed. And I was not lying when I told you that under the bed was searched at the beginning - it was. Two hours later a copper finally had a burst of common sense and decided to search inside again. Properly this time. Even then at first all they saw was a torch and a pile of clothes. http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Mum-sparked-massive-search-missing-son-hiding-bed/story-20025339-detail/story.html
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 04:37:43 PM
No not at the sleepover. And not in the stream at the bottom of the garden. He was found somewhere it would have been impossible for the search helicopter to fly. And it would have been interesting trying to send the whole of the Dartmoor Rescue Team there. "let's split up - you three search at the head end and we'll cover the foot end, look out for spiders" Yes asleep under the bed. And I was not lying when I told you that under the bed was searched at the beginning - it was. Two hours later a copper finally had a burst of common sense and decided to search inside again. Properly this time. Even then at first all they saw was a torch and a pile of clothes. http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Mum-sparked-massive-search-missing-son-hiding-bed/story-20025339-detail/story.html
Dozy mother. Didn't she pull all the stuff out from under the bed?!! But Madeleine didn't re-surface from anywhere, did she?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 05:03:41 PM
Dozy mother. Didn't she pull all the stuff out from under the bed?!! But Madeleine didn't re-surface from anywhere, did she?
It that Abbotskerswell case it wasn't just the mother whose search was incomplete "When police arrived they conducted a quick search of the house but could find no trace."
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 05:08:31 PM
Never been there but recessed in between your gardens are balcony areas and under those are garages.
If there are garages there. why would one be so significantly different to others? Do the dimensions SC mentioned apply to one of 8 under the balconies?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm SC: And once the garage door was opened, it was not just a garage for a car, it was a type of "capsule" of about six by nine metres in size which became longer where there was a bed in the corner, and it was when we were searching this, the English man with grey hair whose identity I did not know, but who had explained this to me.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 05:11:19 PM
It that Abbotskerswell case it wasn't just the mother whose search was incomplete "When police arrived they conducted a quick search of the house but could find no trace."
Common sense tells me that an officer should have stayed with the mother & performed a thorough search while the exterior search swung into operation. Sadly, common sense seems to be sadly lacking today as it's not available on an app.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 05:27:15 PM
Another 2007 case, in Saltash Cornwall UK. A 5 year old boy disappears from his bedroom. "seven helpers and four police officers had turned the house upside down looking" "His bedroom was searched by 11 different people" Then followed a two hour search outdoors including a police helicopter and large number of police and volunteers on the ground. Did the helicopter find the boy? No. Did an human find him? No. A four legged expert did. The child had travelled about 0.0003 miles away from the spot he was last seen. ETA http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484042/Major-helicopter-search-missing-boy-5-ends-asleep-UNDER-bed.html
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2015, 05:35:34 PM
As to searching the flat...
Quote
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 05:41:44 PM
Common sense tells me that an officer should have stayed with the mother & performed a thorough search while the exterior search swung into operation. Sadly, common sense seems to be sadly lacking today as it's not available on an app.
A "common sense" phone app that is a good idea Or a "how to really thoroughly search a residence" app? Problem is there was no such app in 2007
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 05:45:41 PM
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done
Very good Slartibartfast. What happens in many cases and there are dozens of them is that several Somebodies (amateur and police) do look but they are not thorough, and so the centre of the search area is excluded.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 05:57:34 PM
Very good Slartibartfast. What happens in many cases and there are dozens of them is that several Somebodies (amateur and police) do look but they are not thorough, and so the centre of the search area is excluded.
There was somewhere which was never searched at all in the first 10 days but it is not allowed to be mentioned on this thread. The significance of that cannot be overstated enough.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2015, 05:59:22 PM
Very good Slartibartfast. What happens in many cases and there are dozens of them is that several Somebodies (amateur and police) do look but they are not thorough, and so the centre of the search area is excluded.
No because it would be impossible for all of the searchers inside to miss something like that.
Madeleine may indeed have been closer to the centre, at least in the immediate period after she was discovered to be missing. However if the apartment block she vanished from wasn't searched and doors knocked, what chance was there that surrounding residences would be visited.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 28, 2015, 06:35:52 PM
No because it would be impossible for all of the searchers inside to miss something like that.
One the one hand you seem to be saying Madeleine was overlooked in the apartment when it was searched, and on the other you are saying it would have been impossible for searchers to miss her - so, what exactly ARE you saying?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 11:19:36 PM
One the one hand you seem to be saying Madeleine was overlooked in the apartment when it was searched, and on the other you are saying it would have been impossible for searchers to miss her - so, what exactly ARE you saying?
I'm just interested in the psychology of interior search Alfred. I wasn't proposing any theory - the only theory I have only gets as far as the bedroom door.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 11:27:12 PM
One the one hand you seem to be saying Madeleine was overlooked in the apartment when it was searched, and on the other you are saying it would have been impossible for searchers to miss her - so, what exactly ARE you saying?
I'm just interested in the psychology of search Alfred. I wasn't proposing any theory - the only theory I have only gets as far as the bedroom door.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 28, 2015, 11:55:51 PM
OK then Pegasus, sorry if I misunderstood.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 12:32:48 AM
IMO much is gained in ideas by reading other cases. For example I've posted several cases where a search helicopter was (as in PDL) deployed but did not locate the target. This may not seem very interesting, but it is, because these helicopters have heat vision, and a recently missing target always emits heat.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 01:56:20 AM
IMO much is gained in ideas by reading other cases. For example I've posted several cases where a search helicopter was (as in PDL) deployed but did not locate the target. This may not seem very interesting, but it is, because these helicopters have heat vision, and a recently missing target always emits heat.
Ah ... but was that heat seeking equipment deployed when looking for Madeleine?
I seem to remember one of the retired detectives in one of the videos (Channel 4??) regretting that it had not been.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2015, 08:38:34 AM
IMO much is gained in ideas by reading other cases. For example I've posted several cases where a search helicopter was (as in PDL) deployed but did not locate the target. This may not seem very interesting, but it is, because these helicopters have heat vision, and a recently missing target always emits heat.
Not much use in detecting a dead body though.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 11:54:25 AM
Very useful - in two ways If in the open, for the first period the temperature is directly detectable by specialist imaging from the air. If buried, the fact the surface has been recently disturbed is detectable by specialist imaging from the air.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2015, 12:01:46 PM
Very useful - in two ways If in the open, for the first period the temperature is directly detectable by specialist imaging from the air. If buried, the fact the surface has been recently disturbed is detectable by specialist imaging from the air.
How long was it before any helicopters were deployed?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 12:11:22 PM
Very useful - in two ways If in the open, for the first period the temperature is directly detectable by specialist imaging from the air. If buried, the fact the surface has been recently disturbed is detectable by specialist imaging from the air.
I believe Madeleine to be still alive and physically well, altho her mental state might have been altered to lose her memory.
Should she have died and have been emitting heat [have i got that right, do bodies emit heat?] then being so petite, would it have amounted to much? Enough to be picked up by specialist imaging from the air?
Anyone know?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 12:41:37 PM
In that hypothetical scenario, for an initial period "... the temperature ... is elevated above the ambient temperature and may be detected by FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) ... mounted on a helicopter .... most effective for surface recoveries and expedient graves"
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 12:50:30 PM
In that hypothetical scenario, for an initial period "... the temperature ... is elevated above the ambient temperature and may be detected by FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) ... mounted on a helicopter .... most effective for surface recoveries and expedient graves"
Thanks Pegasus.
But with such a small child?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 02:32:32 PM
I wonder how many hours before an exposed corpse reaches ambient temperature ?
I don't know. FLIR imaging depends on the difference in temperature between the target and the surrounding ground. This is why it works best at night when the ground cools more than the target (with internal heat generation) cools.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Carana on August 29, 2015, 05:09:46 PM
IMO much is gained in ideas by reading other cases. For example I've posted several cases where a search helicopter was (as in PDL) deployed but did not locate the target. This may not seem very interesting, but it is, because these helicopters have heat vision, and a recently missing target always emits heat.
Except that the helicopter missed the (living) child who hid under her mother's skirt in the car in the Alps massacre.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 06:55:07 PM
Except that the helicopter missed the (living) child who hid under her mother's skirt in the car in the Alps massacre.
Thanks. Another example of searching everywhere except at the exact centre of the search area. The heat emitted by the child would have been missed because it was at the same spot as the heat source they already knew about.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 03:50:09 PM
Not sure if this is the right place for this but:-
Can anyone direct me to a report on the kitchen waste bin & its contents from the CSI?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 05:12:04 PM
Thanks, but not that one, I meant the waste that was in 5a on the night of the 3rd as that belonged to the McCanns.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 05:45:59 PM
Sorry, I assumed you meant re the CSI dog. I have never come across any mention of the 5a bins. Maybe someone has....
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 01:01:43 AM
@Pegasus I have looked at Block 2 on Streetview and this is the best image I can get of the area under a first floor balcony. I'm still not seeing 2 adjoining garages. The other garage door photo I posted from Edifico Cristaluz probably isn't the right one as that block wasn't owned by OC. It's the laundry store I'm really after - it must surely be down past Casa Liliana, somewhere behind the main OC reception. I can't see them storing spare keys & laundry equipment up in a garage in Block 2.
ETA Image.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 09:10:40 AM
@Pegasus I have looked at Block 2 on Streetview and this is the best image I can get of the area under a first floor balcony. I'm still not seeing 2 adjoining garages. The other garage door photo I posted from Edifico Cristaluz probably isn't the right one as that block wasn't owned by OC. It's the laundry store I'm really after - it must surely be down past Casa Liliana, somewhere behind the main OC reception. I can't see them storing spare keys & laundry equipment up in a garage in Block 2.
Under each of those 4 balconies sticking out the south side are 2 garage doors. OC laundry is in same building as Tapas - walk down the adjoining side street and you will see a vanful of freshly laundered laundry.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 12:26:18 PM
Under each of those 4 balconies sticking out the south side are 2 garage doors. OC laundry is in same building as Tapas - walk down the adjoining side street and you will see a vanful of freshly laundered laundry.
When was your image captured? There is no phone mast on my GE of a pylon in the background. Your image also doesn't show a curved low wall extending from under the balcony.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 01:56:03 PM
When was your image captured? There is no phone mast on my GE of a pylon in the background. Your image also doesn't show a curved low wall extending from under the balcony.
The curved garden walls that stick out are there in the photo I posted Misty.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 05:16:03 PM
The curved garden walls that stick out are there in the photo I posted Misty.
I meant the shaped dividing wall between each g/f apartment. Maybe we are viewing different apartment blocks? Anyway - probably irrelevant in the bigger picture, so I'll leave it there..
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 06:04:16 PM
Misty you can see two of those curved low walls in photo I posted - they each have a gate And yes it is the block north of 5 It is 3 floors high at north, 4 floors high at south including the garages which are the basement. A good design on a sloped site.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 06:13:52 PM
Misty you can see two of those curved low walls in photo I posted - they each have a gate And yes it is the block north of 5 It is 3 floors high at north, 4 floors high at south, because the garages are the basement. A good design on a sloped site.
You are referring to the curved walls around the garden. I was referring to the curved/shaped wall extending from the underside of the balcony to the ground, in the very centre of the image I posted. I can see a patio door opening into one of the gardens & a garden gate. Which garage would open out to 6m x 9m? My image comes from GE 2009. Where does yours originate from, please?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 07:33:40 PM
View showing one of the shaped walls you requested Misty. On your GE image the street wall etc blocks view of the lower floor (garages). Guessing construction, something like 9 long by 3 at door end widening to 6 would be possible. No relevance, just confirming a statement. BTW it's interesting to compare with block 5 which is on a similar sloping site but the equivalent basement storey was not constructed.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 09:19:04 PM
View showing one of the shaped walls you requested Misty. On your GE image the street wall etc blocks view of the lower floor (garages). Guessing construction, something like 9 long by 3 at door end widening to 6 would be possible. No relevance, just confirming a statement. BTW it's interesting to compare with block 5 which is on a similar sloping site but the equivalent basement storey was not constructed.
Still not the wall I meant, but no worries. I can now just see the top of 2 garages at the r/h end of the block after fiddling around & zooming in on GE. There are some still image variations from 2009 to yours, though. You clearly have access to photos not on the internet which gives you an advantage! Block 5 - maybe that was impossible because of the east-west incline or perhaps it would not have been aesthetically pleasing due to the proximity of the main pool.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 09:39:03 PM
Still not the wall I meant, but no worries. I can now just see the top of 2 garages at the r/h end of the block after fiddling around & zooming in on GE. There are some still image variations from 2009 to yours, though. You clearly have access to photos not on the internet which gives you an advantage! Block 5 - maybe that was impossible because of the east-west incline or perhaps it would not have been aesthetically pleasing due to the proximity of the main pool.
I have no secret source I just get images from the internet Misty. Yes block 5 has additional east-west incline, and no space for garage access on south side, but I sometimes wonder how they did plumbing for groundfloor bathrooms.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 10:49:13 PM
I have no secret source I just get images from the internet Misty. Yes block 5 has additional east-west incline, and no space for garage access on south side, but I sometimes wonder how they did plumbing for groundfloor bathrooms.
What would be the difficulties with the plumbing?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 11:17:50 PM
The groundfloor bathrooms are central so where are the pipes between there and the outside?
I imagine they are underground, linked to the water meter along with the pipes to the kitchen. The sewage pipe must be underground as I can't see any pipes running along the base of the wall in the bathroom or any housing on the inside wall which would meet a waste pipe from the upper floors. Presumably there is an access point to the underfloor somewhere for emergencies. What is your opinion of how the building may be plumbed?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 02:22:16 AM
I imagine they are underground, linked to the water meter along with the pipes to the kitchen. The sewage pipe must be underground as I can't see any pipes running along the base of the wall in the bathroom or any housing on the inside wall which would meet a waste pipe from the upper floors. Presumably there is an access point to the underfloor somewhere for emergencies. What is your opinion of how the building may be plumbed?
IMO this sewer must go under another room to reach a manhole outside. And G and K above must come down somewhere
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: misty on September 01, 2015, 03:18:11 AM
IMO this sewer must go under another room to reach a manhole outside. And G and K above must come down somewhere
There is some housing in the r/h corner of the lounge rear wall, but that seems an odd place for a waste pipe. The only other housing I can see is to the exterior right of the front door.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 03:24:19 AM
Anyone care to remind us all what waste pipes plumbing garage walls etc have to do with what discussion? Just so we can keep up
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 09:06:35 AM
No, but I would have thought if they were known about they would have been searched?
If (and that's a very big if) - Eddie's nasal-passage clearing is accepted as an alert, is it not possible that he was not indicating to the flowerbed & verandah surface themselves but rather something underneath & encased by the verandah?
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on September 03, 2015, 01:31:29 AM
There is some housing in the r/h corner of the lounge rear wall, but that seems an odd place for a waste pipe. The only other housing I can see is to the exterior right of the front door.
In dog video of 4G bathroom in one corner is walled off vertical column which presumably contains waste pipe coming down from 4K through 4G and 4A?. Block 5 is twin to 4 so there must be a similar walled off bathroom waste pipe from 5K through 5G then through 5A but where is it in 5A bathroom? Almost certainly irrelevant but interesting anyway.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: Anna on September 03, 2015, 02:35:09 AM
In dog video of 4G bathroom in one corner is walled off vertical column which presumably contains waste pipe coming down from 4K through 4G and 4A?. Block 5 is twin to 4 so there must be a similar walled off bathroom waste pipe from 5K through 5G then through 5A but where is it in 5A bathroom? Almost certainly irrelevant but interesting anyway.
Doesn't the toilet back on to the bedroom wardrobe area? I cant quite work it out ...... The kitchen water and waste pipes appear to come down and are in between the kitchen and lounge above the paved area in Dotour Martin gentils. The toilet/bathroom is on the other side, so I imagine there must be pipes either going under or down the side of the balcony and behind to a drain(probably concealed under the garden plants) or it all goes somehow to the street drain. &%+((£ Nah I lost it.
Title: Re: Search areas: who searched where, when and how
Post by: pegasus on September 04, 2015, 02:45:27 AM
Doesn't the toilet back on to the bedroom wardrobe area? I cant quite work it out ...... The kitchen water and waste pipes appear to come down and are in between the kitchen and lounge above the paved area in Dotour Martin gentils. The toilet/bathroom is on the other side, so I imagine there must be pipes either going under or down the side of the balcony and behind to a drain(probably concealed under the garden plants) or it all goes somehow to the street drain. &%+((£ Nah I lost it.
That white pipe you see outside between lounge and dining area is a downpipe for rainwater from 5K east balcony