UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on June 01, 2015, 08:20:24 PM
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One of the mysteries in the White House murders case is how Jeremy Bamber managed to keep his sister under control while he carried out the first four murders.
Having looked at this again there is every possibility that he used something like chloroform to subdue her.
Even today, chloroform is difficult to detect and disperses quickly.
Views please?
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A bit too sophisticated for JB, I think... and he never said anything about Chloroform to Julie. As she lived at Head Street and cleaned for him, rifling through his medicine cabinet and cupboards she might have discovered a mysterious bottle and asked him what it was.
The photo of Sheila always struck me as if she'd fainted. She looks unconscious with eyes shut.
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One of the mysteries in the White House murders case is how Jeremy Bamber managed to keep his sister under control while he carried out the first four murders.
Having looked at this again there is every possibility that he used something like chloroform to subdue her.
Even today, chloroform is difficult to detect and disperses quickly.
Views please?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform#Anesthetic
Criminal use
Chloroform has been reputed to be used by criminals to knock out, daze or even murder their victims. Joseph Harris was charged in 1894 with using chloroform to rob people.[21] In 1901, chloroform was also implicated in the murder of the American businessman William Marsh Rice, the namesake of the institution now known as Rice University. Chloroform was also deemed to be a factor in the alleged murder of a woman in 1991 when she was asphyxiated while sleeping.[22] In a 2007 plea bargain a man confessed to using stun guns and chloroform to sexually assault minors.[23]Use of chloroform as an incapacitating agent has become widely recognized, bordering on clichéd, due to the popularity of crime fiction authors having criminals use chloroform-soaked rags to render victims unconscious. However, it is nearly impossible to incapacitate someone using chloroform.[24] It takes at least five minutes of inhaling an item soaked in chloroform to render a person unconscious. Most criminal cases involving chloroform also involve another drug being co-administered, such as alcohol or diazepam, or the victim being found to have been complicit in its administration. After a person has lost consciousness due to chloroform inhalation, a continuous volume must be administered and the chin must be supported in order to keep the tongue from obstructing the airway, a difficult procedure even for an anesthesiologist. In 1865 as a direct result of the criminal reputation chloroform had gained, medical journal The Lancet offered a "permanent scientific reputation" to anyone who could demonstrate "instantaneous insensibility" using chloroform,[25] and as of 2015 no such demonstration has been forthcoming.[24]
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A bit too sophisticated for JB, I think... and he never said anything about Chloroform to Julie. As she lived at Head Street and cleaned for him, rifling through his medicine cabinet and cupboards she might have discovered a mysterious bottle and asked him what it was.
The photo of Sheila always struck me as if she'd fainted. She looks unconscious with eyes shut.
Yes, totally unconcerned. If she was in imminent danger surely she would have fought him off?
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Yes, totally unconcerned. If she was in imminent danger surely she would have fought him off?
Another thing too... had JB used chloroform and Sheila was out cold, I doubt that he would have made such a pig's ear of the first shot which was fired in the wrong direction for a suicide attempt. Whereas, having a rifle pointed at your neck by someone while conscious and sitting upright is enough to make you faint from the shock.
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Yes, totally unconcerned. If she was in imminent danger surely she would have fought him off?
According to RB SC was like a lamb to the slaughter:
Excerpt from RB's diary on 11th August 1985:
"Wake up Sheila, Mummy wants you to say prayers with her, bring your bible, give me your arm, I'll help you". When in their mother's bedroom, "lie down here darling, put the bible on your chest" the bible is placed on her chest, "give me your hand Sheila darling". The gun has been rested on the bible, the hands are taken, the left hand is placed on the end of the barrell under the chin as the right hand is placed on the trigger guard and the thumb pressed onto the triger. bang - Sheila has committed suicide!!"
DB describes SC on the vid as "pleasantly senile" so I guess this is how they viewed SC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=17m15s
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DB describes SC on the vid as "pleasantly senile" so I guess this is how they viewed SC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=17m15s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=17m15s)
Big mistake that. 8(8-))
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... showing you the video timing workaround, I mean %56&
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... showing you the video timing workaround, I mean %56&
Yes Dear quite a powerful tool! Thank you x
I was just thinking about an idea of how YouTube links could be incorporated into books &%+((£
Also web pages &%+((£. It would probably be quite easy to do with ebooks but I'll have to think how it could be done with hard copies. Sex it all up from your usual text and photos. Plus people learn in different ways some more from reading others more from listening.
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Yes Dear quite a powerful tool! Thank you x
I was just thinking about an idea of how YouTube links could be incorporated into books &%+((£
Also web pages &%+((£ . It would probably be quite easy to do with ebooks but I'll have to think how it could be done with hard copies. Sex it all up from your usual text and photos. Plus people learn in different ways some more from reading others more from listening.
That's the way to do it, as Myster Punch said...
https://youtu.be/qh4U9kan8uM?t=0s (https://youtu.be/qh4U9kan8uM?t=1s)
http://www.riumplus.com/mystbook/ (http://www.riumplus.com/mystbook/)
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That's the way to do it, as Myster Punch said...
https://youtu.be/qh4U9kan8uM?t=0s (https://youtu.be/qh4U9kan8uM?t=1s)
http://www.riumplus.com/mystbook/ (http://www.riumplus.com/mystbook/)
My idea is already at the embryonic stage 8)><(
I don't feel any nostalgia/sentiment towards paper books. If everything could be held and stored digitally it would be a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I don't get this 'I like the way it feels and smells' argument &%+((£. If books persist in paper then perhaps a little device could be developed that scans web links from book pages and allows users to upload the scanned info from the device into a search engine that could refer to diagrams, graphs, music, YouTube clips etc, etc. It could easily be done with ebooks. This would attract more people to read and cover all styles of absorbing info/learning:
http://learning-styles-online.com/overview/
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My idea is already at the embryonic stage 8)><(
I don't feel any nostalgia/sentiment towards paper books. If everything could be held and stored digitally it would be a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I don't get this 'I like the way it feels and smells' argument &%+((£ . If books persist in paper then perhaps a little device could be developed that scans web links from book pages and allows users to upload the scanned info from the device into a search engine that could refer to diagrams, graphs, music, YouTube clips etc, etc. It could easily be done with ebooks. This would attract more people to read and cover all styles of absorbing info/learning:
http://learning-styles-online.com/overview/ (http://learning-styles-online.com/overview/)
You might not Holly but other people do, including myself, although I'm not averse to reading epubs and pdfs on a PC or laptop as well... but real textbooks aren't lost should your hard disk die suddenly. And I prefer the sensuous feel of a worn old “Lady Chatterley” in my hands to a cold plastic kindle with “50 Sheds of Grey”.
There's probably an app already out there (or shortly will be) which uses a special reader or camera phone to scan a text link or barcode URL of any website directly from the pages of a textbook.
I thought this was already possible with e-books though, simply by clicking/touching a hyperlink? I use Calibre, a free program for reading pdfs, epubs, etc. If you click on a website link in any e-book being read, the site is then displayed on screen. For example, if I clicked on the blue Autodesk hyperlink in the attached screenshot of Calibre viewer, it would take me directly there.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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My idea is already at the embryonic stage 8)><(
I don't feel any nostalgia/sentiment towards paper books. If everything could be held and stored digitally it would be a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I don't get this 'I like the way it feels and smells' argument &%+((£. If books persist in paper then perhaps a little device could be developed that scans web links from book pages and allows users to upload the scanned info from the device into a search engine that could refer to diagrams, graphs, music, YouTube clips etc, etc. It could easily be done with ebooks. This would attract more people to read and cover all styles of absorbing info/learning:
http://learning-styles-online.com/overview/
That's a shame, Holl, the fact that books don't do it for you. Perfect bliss for me is sitting under a tree with Monica Dickens, I just don't think it would be the same on a computer. Then again, I'm not on facespace or twitter, I don't even have a mobile anymore, I just do this when the devil's in me!!
But I'm looking forward to your reviews on the latest Bamber books when/if they appear. They will be beautifully written, and they'll save me the dosh I can spend on fags and pony nuts. xxx
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That's a shame, Holl, the fact that books don't do it for you. Perfect bliss for me is sitting under a tree with Monica Dickens, I just don't think it would be the same on a computer. Then again, I'm not on facespace or twitter, I don't even have a mobile anymore, I just do this when the devil's in me!!
But I'm looking forward to your reviews on the latest Bamber books when/if they appear. They will be beautifully written, and they'll save me the dosh I can spend on fags and pony nuts. xxx
Edited to add....your reviews will be beautifully written, not the sad old piles of tosh that will probably plagiarise my realisation that Sheila never moved after the first shot.
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One of the mysteries in the White House murders case is how Jeremy Bamber managed to keep his sister under control while he carried out the first four murders.
Having looked at this again there is every possibility that he used something like chloroform to subdue her.
Even today, chloroform is difficult to detect and disperses quickly.
Views please?
This is what bugs me...this image of Sheila as some sort of super-human wonder woman who would have fought to the death to save her boys. She was dragged from her bed, completely confused, tired and over-medicated, with no realisation of what was going on until she saw June. She was probably literally petrified. She probably passed out. She was more scared than she could cope with. She was 25, and suddenly the world had gone mad.
And the best that Jeremy Bamber could come up with was "no comment."
%56&
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This is what bugs me...this image of Sheila as some sort of super-human wonder woman who would have fought to the death to save her boys. She was dragged from her bed, completely confused, tired and over-medicated, with no realisation of what was going on until she saw June. She was probably literally petrified. She probably passed out. She was more scared than she could cope with. She was 25, and suddenly the world had gone mad.
And the best that Jeremy Bamber could come up with was "no comment."
%56&
"No comment" said Mark Bridger. And Ian Huntley. And Jimmy Savile. And Fred West. And Myra Hindley.
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Edited to add....your reviews will be beautifully written, not the sad old piles of tosh that will probably plagiarise my realisation that Sheila never moved after the first shot.
Having read excerpts from Carol Ann Lee's other books she goes into enormous detail about family background and characterisation based on painstaking research. I'm hoping to hear more about the real SC as I cant reconcile in my own mind how I view SC with what appear to be popular myths about her eg to use DB's description "Pleasantly senile". Along with other general descriptions from various sources: promiscuous, clumsy and uncoordinated, coke head.
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A bit too sophisticated for JB, I think... and he never said anything about Chloroform to Julie. As she lived at Head Street and cleaned for him, rifling through his medicine cabinet and cupboards she might have discovered a mysterious bottle and asked him what it was.
The photo of Sheila always struck me as if she'd fainted. She looks unconscious with eyes shut.
Actually, her eyes were partially open.
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Actually, her eyes were partially open.
... or closed? But still out for the count.
(http://i.imgur.com/UXnzec5.jpg)
Have you seen any other photo, Caroline?
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Put it this way... they're either almost completely closed or only fractionally open, allowing for blurriness of the photo. 8((()*/
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Put it this way... they're either almost completely closed or only fractionally open, allowing for blurriness of the photo. 8((()*/
I think it's probably an optical illusion with SC's long dark eyelashes in that they look fractionally open but are in fact closed. Lovely natural brow line.
Anyway as far as I can see whether eyes are open or closed, or somewhere in between, it doesn't seem to prove anything from a physiological/post mortem perspective?
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I think it's probably an optical illusion with SC's long dark eyelashes in that they look fractionally open but are in fact closed. Lovely natural brow line.
Anyway as far as I can see whether eyes are open or closed, or somewhere in between, it doesn't seem to prove anything from a physiological/post mortem perspective?
Unless there's a study somewhere which compares numerous images of suicide victims' eyes to see if there's any difference. Some die with eyes shut, others with them open, dependent on which part of the brain is disrupted and how quickly death occurs I guess, so not really indicative of anything.
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Unless there's a study somewhere which compares numerous images of suicide victims' eyes to see if there's any difference. Some die with eyes shut, others with them open, dependent on which part of the brain is disrupted and how quickly death occurs I guess, so not really indicative of anything.
It doesn't make any difference at all (unless you believe in optography!)
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What was it David Boutflour said of Sheila's state when found, hardly a hair out of place! Not the sort of thing you find with someone who was having a breakdown, had a fight with her father, shot four people in the head and shot herself twice in the throat. Seriously folks, anyone who says otherwise needs to get a grip IMO!!
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It doesn't make any difference at all (unless you believe in optography!)
If only that worked, Shona... Taff Jones and other doubters would have needed no convincing if the last image on Sheila's retina showed JB pointing the Anschutz at her neck.
You never know, it might happen one day. &%+((£
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optography)
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If only that worked, Shona... Taff Jones and other doubters would have needed no convincing if the last image on Sheila's retina showed JB pointing the Anschutz at her neck.
You never know, it might happen one day. &%+((£
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optography)
I had to look up Optography after puglove's post. The experiments sound horribly reminiscent of those carried out by the Nazis!
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What was it David Boutflour said of Sheila's state when found, hardly a hair out of place! Not the sort of thing you find with someone who was having a breakdown, had a fight with her father, shot four people in the head and shot herself twice in the throat. Seriously folks, anyone who says otherwise needs to get a grip IMO!!
If SC's state at SoC was so obvious why did none of the police officers switch onto it straight away along with Dr Craig and Dr Vanezis? In the early days DS Jones was the only dissenter and he added nothing of evidential value according to Dr Vanezis. DS Jones' suspicions were based on JB's behaviour. DS Jones wasn't some high flying police officer just returned from secondment training with elite NY cops but a 45 year old who had only reached the rank of DS with a UK based provincial force.
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If SC's state at SoC was so obvious why did none of the police officers switch onto it straight away along with Dr Craig and Dr Vanezis? In the early days DS Jones was the only dissenter and he added nothing of evidential value according to Dr Vanezis. DS Jones' suspicions were based on JB's behaviour. DS Jones wasn't some high flying police officer just returned from secondment training with elite NY cops but a 45 year old who had only reached the rank of DS with a UK based provincial force.
In fact that's not strictly true. In the immediate aftermath it appears the only dissenters were the relatives. DS Jones told AE on at least one occasion:
"If you accused him and later found out you were wrong. Imagine how you would feel?"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3540
The relatives, rightly or wrongly, seemed to suspect JB from the off. And yet it seems the Boutflours/Eatons spent very little time with the Bambers and according to CC had no idea about the severity of SC's mental illness.
AE's WS's describing the level of contact between the Bambers, Boutflours and Eatons
"I will say that during the early and teenage years of my life I did not visit my Aunt June and Uncle Nevill and their adopted children very often. My parents, my brother and I visited White House Farm at Christmas time to exchange presents and occasionally for Sunday lunch".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2143
"I left school aged 16 years and worked for a course at the Mid Essex Technical Collage and School of Art in Chelmsford. I moved in with some friends only returning home to Wix at weekends. I didn't see Sheila or Jeremy very often during this period of my life and only saw my Aunt June Bamber and Uncle Nevill Bamber at White House Farm on infrequent occasions".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2145
Excerpt from Colin Caffell's book
"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam. Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden. Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it? I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence. They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong. These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".
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One of the mysteries in the White House murders case is how Jeremy Bamber managed to keep his sister under control while he carried out the first four murders.
Having looked at this again there is every possibility that he used something like chloroform to subdue her.
Even today, chloroform is difficult to detect and disperses quickly.
Views please?
She was sleeping, he woke her up at the point when he wanted to kill her. He held her had gun point she had little choice but to comply. Very few people actually attack someone holding agun on them trying to disarm such person and it is harder with a rifle because the person keeps you further away than a handgun does.
In the meantime he also could have threatened to hurt the boys if she didn't comply. Even if they were already dead she didn't know it.
After being shot the first time she raised her right hand to her wound which resulted in blood getting on her outer palm/wrist and running down her arm to her elbow. She wasn't unconscious at the time the shot was fired quite clearly though the shot could have rapidly sent her into shock. Jeremy freaked out because she was still moving and jammed the gun into her chin at that point and fired again killing her.
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... or closed? But still out for the count.
(http://i.imgur.com/UXnzec5.jpg)
Have you seen any other photo, Caroline?
I should have said 'partially open' and yes, I do have a photograph.
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I think it's probably an optical illusion with SC's long dark eyelashes in that they look fractionally open but are in fact closed. Lovely natural brow line.
Anyway as far as I can see whether eyes are open or closed, or somewhere in between, it doesn't seem to prove anything from a physiological/post mortem perspective?
They ARE partially open.
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They ARE partially open.
In your opinion. As discussed on this forum whether they are open or closed or somewhere in between it doesn't prove anything from a physiological/post mortem perspective. On this basis I find your fascination with photos of the deceased somewhat morbid and worrying 8(8-))
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In your opinion. As discussed on this forum whether they are open or closed or somewhere in between it doesn't prove anything from a physiological/post mortem perspective. On this basis I find your fascination with photos of the deceased somewhat morbid and worrying 8(8-))
I didn't say her eyes being 'partially' open means anything, just pointing out that they weren't closed as that was the query at the time.
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I didn't say her eyes being 'partially' open means anything, just pointing out that they weren't closed as that was the query at the time.
In your opinion. Thankfully I don't view life through your lens Caroline.
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What is my opinion? That Sheila's eye's aren't partially open? Errrr, the picture shows that they are. Perhaps Specsavers might be your next stop cuz whatever lens you are viewing from needs some help! 8((()*/ @)(++(* 8(>((
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What is my opinion? That Sheila's eye's aren't partially open? Errrr, the picture shows that they are. Perhaps Specsavers might be your next stop cuz whatever lens you are viewing from needs some help! 8((()*/ @)(++(* 8(>((
Your opinion that SC's eyes are open. I know you struggle with others not sharing your pearls of wisdom but you need to try and understand your views are just that and not necessarily shared by others no matter how obvious they might seem to you.
Some posters see SC's blood trails as wet; others see them as dry. Both can't be right. Another example of different perceptions on the photo.
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Your opinion that SC's eyes are open. I know you struggle with others not sharing your pearls of wisdom but you need to try and understand your views are just that and not necessarily shared by others no matter how obvious they might seem to you.
Some posters see SC's blood trails as wet; others see them as dry. Both can't be right. Another example of different perceptions on the photo.
Bollocks! @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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If SC's state at SoC was so obvious why did none of the police officers switch onto it straight away along with Dr Craig and Dr Vanezis? In the early days DS Jones was the only dissenter and he added nothing of evidential value according to Dr Vanezis. DS Jones' suspicions were based on JB's behaviour. DS Jones wasn't some high flying police officer just returned from secondment training with elite NY cops but a 45 year old who had only reached the rank of DS with a UK based provincial force.
The pathologist never saw Sheila until she arrived in the morgue by which time her appearance had changed considerably having been enclosed in a body bag before being put in a coffin for transportation. He was shocked when he later saw the original crime scene photos taken by PC Bird.
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The pathologist never saw Sheila until she arrived in the morgue by which time her appearance had changed considerably having been enclosed in a body bag before being put in a coffin for transportation. He was shocked when he later saw the original crime scene photos taken by PC Bird.
The body bags used were for 'suspicious deaths'. Pathologists are highly trained and experienced professionals. In the case of Dr Vanezis he went on to preside over some of the most high profile cases across the globe and not a whiff of incompetence or wrongdoing. I don't accept he was incapable of distinguishing between blood distribution and location from SoC and transference from the body bag.
Numerous individuals observed the victims in situ: raid team, SoC officers, police photographer, various detectives and medical doctor. Are we to believe that these highly trained individuals with hundred of years combined experience were all so inept they overlooked what was staring them in the face? That they were so sold on JB's phone call they were unable to see the wood for the trees?
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The body bags used were for 'suspicious deaths'. Pathologists are highly trained and experienced professionals. In the case of Dr Vanezis he went on to preside over some of the most high profile cases across the globe and not a whiff of incompetence or wrongdoing. I don't accept he was incapable of distinguishing between blood distribution and location from SoC and transference from the body bag.
Numerous individuals observed the victims in situ: raid team, SoC officers, police photographer, various detectives and medical doctor. Are we to believe that these highly trained individuals with hundred of years combined experience were all so inept they overlooked what was staring them in the face? That they were so sold on JB's phone call they were unable to see the wood for the trees?
Apparently so!
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She was sleeping, he woke her up at the point when he wanted to kill her. He held her had gun point she had little choice but to comply. Very few people actually attack someone holding agun on them trying to disarm such person and it is harder with a rifle because the person keeps you further away than a handgun does.
In the meantime he also could have threatened to hurt the boys if she didn't comply. Even if they were already dead she didn't know it.
After being shot the first time she raised her right hand to her wound which resulted in blood getting on her outer palm/wrist and running down her arm to her elbow. She wasn't unconscious at the time the shot was fired quite clearly though the shot could have rapidly sent her into shock. Jeremy freaked out because she was still moving and jammed the gun into her chin at that point and fired again killing her.
This explanation makes the most sense to me. I always thought Bamber must have gone to the boys bedroom first, then moved onto Nevile & June's room but finding Neville aleady awake and semi prepared for him, having been awoken by the muffled gunfire next door perhaps. One of the things that did go right for Jeremy was not waking Sheila up, although it wasn't make or break to his plan provided he was swift with the others.
The choroform would have been a great idea, except I can't see Jeremy with his big mouth keeping it quiet, as someone above mentioned. He would have needed to ask around for something like that.