Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Anna on June 15, 2015, 03:16:19 PM
Title: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Anna on June 15, 2015, 03:16:19 PM
It seem that several members are interested in area around 5A, that was not investigated such as the lift shaft, 5F and the area under 5a. This discussion was started in another thread. I would appreciate it being continued here. It is very interesting.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 03:24:27 PM
It seem that several members are interested in area around 5A, that was not investigated such as the lift shaft, 5F and the area under 5a. This discussion was started in another thread. I would appreciate it being continued here. It is very interesting.
Is the existence of that area confirmed, or merely alleged ?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
I am shocked to discover that this wasn't done.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 04:16:32 PM
Maybe John /Admin can move posts over here,.
Bretta and I have raised these issues several times.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 04:25:05 PM
Is the existence of that area confirmed, or merely alleged ?
Where?
I found the architect's plan of CL and the photo showing where the entrance had been tiled over with seemingly no recent sign of works. I'll post them again when I find them.
Re Block 5 - I checked with an architect who did their best to explain to me.
These buildings are on a slope.
There are two solutions: - one is costly and would involve technical bla, bla.... basicly filling in the ground and compounding it to level the area.
. the other is to create a void, which is less expensive, and useful for access in the event of future major works.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 04:28:44 PM
I found the architect's plan of CL and the photo showing where the entrance had been tiled over with seemingly no recent sign of works. I'll post them again when I find them.
Re Block 5 - I checked with an architect who did their best to explain to me.
These buildings are on a slope.
There are two solutions: - one is costly and would involve technical bla, bla.... basicly filling in the ground and compounding it to level the area.
. the other is to create a void, which is less expensive, and useful for access in the event of future major works.
I was referring to 5A, as I highlighted in my post. Still not clear if there is an accessible space or not.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Anna on June 15, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
I was referring to 5A, as I highlighted in my post. Still not clear if there is an accessible space or not.
Correct Jassi, Where would the lift shaft and working be? Also all the plumbing and electrics for the block. I admit that door is not visible in any images showing access to this area, but it could be in a recess (understairs area etc) I really don't know. A lot of wasted space if not used for something.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 04:38:41 PM
I found the architect's plan of CL and the photo showing where the entrance had been tiled over with seemingly no recent sign of works. I'll post them again when I find them.
Re Block 5 - I checked with an architect who did their best to explain to me.
These buildings are on a slope.
There are two solutions: - one is costly and would involve technical bla, bla.... basicly filling in the ground and compounding it to level the area.
. the other is to create a void, which is less expensive, and useful for access in the event of future major works.
If there is excess soil left from excavating the foundations, it is cheaper to use it to fill the voids than to transport it away?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
I was referring to 5A, as I highlighted in my post. Still not clear if there is an accessible space or not.
Sorry, I didn't notice what you'd highlighted. I don't know any more than I've posted.
The second option, i.e., creating a void on stablised earth makes sense to me in an apartment block in the event of major works, plus I don't recall ever seeing a lift without a maintenance shaft below the bottom public doors to it. Some really modern hi-tech ones may well do, but we're talking about apartment blocks from the '80s.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 04:55:15 PM
If there is excess soil left from excavating the foundations, it is cheaper to use it to fill the voids than to transport it away?
I have just checked villas for sale in Praia da Luz and a great many of them feature wine cellars as a selling point. PDL is a very hilly area so there are likely to be many properties with cellars or crawl spaces underneath.
Casa Liliana has a relatively small space under the floor and it was not infilled. As far as Block 5 is concerned I think to fill it in, if this was possible, would represent an inefficient use of space and the loss of easy access to services in the building. I would find it extraordinary if there was no access to that area.
There has never been mention of any checks being carried out on the plans for the building, inspections of the lift shaft or any storage areas.
Layout of Casa Liliana http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-455144/Madeleine-Police-swoop-Russian-experts-flat.html
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 05:31:42 PM
If there are voids under 5A, how can they be accessed? Do any services run through them? Where do the drainpipes from the bath, basin, toilet go? Do they go along above the floor to the outside, or do they go down through the floor?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 06:21:14 PM
If there are voids under 5A, how can they be accessed? Do any services run through them? Where do the drainpipes from the bath, basin, toilet go? Do they go along above the floor to the outside, or do they go down through the floor?
Those are the questions that the architect could answer....
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
And Misty has raised the issue of 5J several times...
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2015, 09:23:52 PM
Correct Jassi, Where would the lift shaft and working be? Also all the plumbing and electrics for the block. I admit that door is not visible in any images showing access to this area, but it could be in a recess (understairs area etc) I really don't know. A lot of wasted space if not used for something.
I am not a lift engineer, but I think that you have to have a void under the lift shaft and also a void above it, for the workings and maintenance as Anna suggested.
I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2015, 01:27:44 AM
There are really serious omissions regarding interviewing people who may have been witnesses.
Mrs Fenn who lived in the apartment immediately above the McCann apartment, was not interviewed for months after the event.
The Moyes who were in the in the apartment immediately above Mrs Fenn were not interviewed at all.
Mr and Mrs Moyes if questioned properly had the potential to be able to give the police valuable information.
They had been out for a meal and they had walked home. They sat on their veranda overlooking the tapas restaurant from appx 9.15 pm until they went to bed. They participated in the search.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: misty on June 16, 2015, 02:06:00 AM
There are really serious omissions regarding interviewing people who may have been witnesses.
Mrs Fenn who lived in the apartment immediately above the McCann apartment, was not interviewed for months after the event.
The Moyes who were in the in the apartment immediately above Mrs Fenn were not interviewed at all.
Mr and Mrs Moyes if questioned properly had the potential to be able to give the police valuable information.
They had been out for a meal and they had walked home. They sat on their veranda overlooking the tapas restaurant from appx 9.15 pm until they went to bed. They participated in the search.
IMO Mrs Fenn was a crucial witness. She had been the victim of an attempted burglary in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance. Who had she told locally about this? Furthermore, as the only permanent resident in Block 5 for periods of the year, she would have been aware of at least some of the comings & goings of people in nearby apartments & also familiar with certain staff routines. I also wonder how long she spent on her balcony, surveying the scene below, after her brief exchange with Gerry?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2015, 11:53:56 AM
IMO Mrs Fenn was a crucial witness. She had been the victim of an attempted burglary in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance. Who had she told locally about this? Furthermore, as the only permanent resident in Block 5 for periods of the year, she would have been aware of at least some of the comings & goings of people in nearby apartments & also familiar with certain staff routines. I also wonder how long she spent on her balcony, surveying the scene below, after her brief exchange with Gerry?
It wouldn't have been realistic for the police to knock on every door in Praia da Luz and certainly a major endeavour like that could not have been attempted in the golden hours immediately after Madeleine was reported missing.
I think it was remiss not to check in the first instance on the occupants of the premises in the immediate vicinity on the off chance they may have witnessed something relevant. I think that should have been a priority to be dealt with as soon as personnel could be deployed to deal with it ... I agree that Mrs Fenn was a crucial witness as she strikes me as being a feisty woman who didn't miss much, her witness statement taken sympathetically in the immediate aftermath could have been very valuable indeed. We'll never know.
I know that premises were checked and the occupants of some properties were spoken to ... it is difficult to know how systematic that may have been as there is nothing in the files available to us to give an indication. Mrs Murat also collected statements independently ... of which again there is no record in the files to which we have access.
Is it possible the footsoldiers' notes (we know there are files we have not seen) from these searches were properly collated in the scoping exercise and form part of the information which should have been investigated at the time but was not, and provided missing pieces of the jigsaw which justified reopening the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: sadie on June 16, 2015, 01:04:50 PM
The sightings in the Porto area SHOULD have been investigated but appear not have been.
There were several sightings.
Also several youngsters were stranger abducted in the Porto region.
According to reports, now whooshed (!), the son of an Elite was taken and not charged, but given warnings. All abductions ceased in the Porto/ Guimares region. [I am not the only person that read about this. Catkins from Myths read about it too]
Four years later, abductions started in the PdL / Algarve region. - Joana Cipriano disappeared, just 7 miles from PdL. Sept 2004 - Carolina Santos was abducted from nearby Silves, but soooo fortunately rescued by her parents before she finally vanished around the corner. She was walking, hand in hand, with a man who said that he would take her to play with some children. Christmas Day 2006 What a lucky girl. What a lucky family. She was rescued.
Madeleine Mccann. Less than 5 months after the failed attempt at Carolina, Madeleine vanished in PdL
All these little girls aged between 3 and 7/8. All very pretty All blonde All with links to Jewish names All within an area of about 18 miles All within a period of less than 3 years of each other.
And following on from the Northern Abduction period after a gap of just about 4 years after them.
The Elite having links with the Algarve area around PdL as well as the Porto region
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 01:08:11 PM
The sightings in the Porto area SHOULD have been investigated but appear not have been.
There were several sightings.
Also several youngsters were stranger abducted in the Porto region.
According to reports, now whooshed (!), the son of an Elite was taken and not charged, but given warnings. All abductions ceased in the Porto/ Guimares region. [I am not the only person that read about this. Catkins from Myths read about it too]
Four years later, abductions started in the PdL / Algarve region. - Joana Cipriano disappeared, just 7 miles from PdL. Sept 2004 - Carolina Santos was abducted from nearby Silves, but soooo fortunately rescued by her parents before she finally vanished around the corner. She was walking, hand in hand, with a man who said that he would take her to play with some children. Christmas Day 2006 What a lucky girl. What a lucky family. She was rescued.
Madeleine Mccann. Less than 5 months after the failed attempt at Carolina, Madeleine vanished in PdL
All these little girls aged between 3 and 7/8. All very pretty All blonde All with links to Jewish names All within an area of about 18 miles All within a period of less than 3 years of each other.
And following on from the Northern Abduction period after a gap of just about 4 years after them.
The Elite having links with the Algarve area around PdL as well as the Porto region
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 16, 2015, 01:09:58 PM
I am not a lift engineer, but I think that you have to have a void under the lift shaft and also a void above it, for the workings and maintenance as Anna suggested.
I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
Some have pits at the bottom some don't there is always a space above the car on the top stop.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2015, 01:15:15 PM
SC: Humm... this garage belonged to a Portuguese man, the man from the laundry.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And when we entered the garage I asked who lived there, he replied that his son lived there and then there were distractions and because I was concentrated on the fifty year old English man, this man is Portuguese, it was only afterwards when I thought later about what we were searching for, it didn't occur to me and I think it is because of this that i mentioned it in my statement two weeks later, because I remember that there had been some distortions.
DCF: Fine, now (inaudible) describe the Portuguese man, the laundry man to me, yes'
SC: Yes. I am certain that I read about this at the beginning, which (inaudible)' I think that afterwards, and afterwards coincides with the fact that he was the man from the laundry and of the van parked there, because as i have already explained, we were here in a small street here above which linked to the main road and to everything beside here on top, the rest was all pathways and I remember that on two or three occasions I thought...this is a dead end road, the van was parked there, I never saw anyone and more than once assumed that it would be cleaning staff and only this thought coincided with the presence of the man from the laundry, and if there were any reply to be made in relation to the link between the van parked there and the laundry man.
DCF: Of what age did the laundry man appear to be'
SC: Humm, I do not remember clearly what I said, but obviously at times Europeans appear older than they are, because of
DCF...(inaudible) the sun.
SC: Yes with the sun, that was what I said in the statement (inaudible).
DCF: I am going to try to locate the first pages where it was mentioned, but there is no description.
SC: Forty five to fifty years old, I think.
DCF: I'm just trying to think what age the man would be, it is difficult to say for the man that I saw, but he would have been of an age that implied that he could have a small child living in the garage or it could be expected that the had a grown up child.
SC: Oh, I think he would have been about, you know.... eighteen years, twenty or twenty two years old to live in the back of a garage because it had large cupboards and other things, but to live in a garage would mean that he had to be eighteen or more, because of a question of safety and because it was not the best way to live.
DCF: No. Then as you say the children's toys seemed to you to be out of context'
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes, mainly because I would think of someone aged eighteen or slightly more.
He has worked at the OC since the 5th March 2007 as a laundry worker as well as the driver of the laundry vehicles of the resort, delivering and collecting laundry (towels and sheets) from the apartments that make up the resort.
With relation to the events being investigated he states that on 4th May 2007, upon arriving at work at about 10.00 he saw that next to an apartment block there were various cars and police as well as members of the press, which he found strange.
Later, when he arrived at his place of work he was informed by colleagues that this "apparatus" was due to the disappearance of a little girl who had been staying at the resort.
He was informed that the girl was three years old, of British nationality and he observed that posters with her photograph and details were already up, with indications to follow in the case of information about her disappearance.
When questioned he said that he did not know the girl or her family, only having heard about them after the event.
When questioned about the day of the disappearance (03 May 2007) of the girl whose name he does not remember, he says he carried out his normal routine, arriving at his place of work at about 10.00, with a lunch break from 13.00 to 14.30, returning to work until 18.00. After work he returned home where he stayed with his wife until 21.30 when he went alone by car to Barao de Sao Joao, where his step son works.
After having picked up his step son he returned home where he stayed until the following day when he left for work.
He only knew about the events from the press and from his colleagues.
He knows nothing more apart from that the girl was on holiday with her family and twin siblings as he was informed later.
He does not know of anything suspicious that could be related to the events.
A Portuguese laundry worker who was working at the resort from where Madeleine McCann disappeared has this week spoken about a “weird” stranger lurking in a dark stairwell a day earlier.
Mário Fernando Madeira Marreiros (47) told the Mirror this week that his testimony was ignored by Portuguese investigators.
He says he made the sighting the night before Madeleine’s disappearance as he went to collect dirty laundry.
“I saw the weird guy and we nearly bumped into each other. He was embarrassed. He looked nervous.”
Mário Fernando continues that the man had “a really fat face” and that he wore “two-tone sunglasses”.
“There was no reason for him to be there and no reason to wear the glasses as it was dark under the stairs”, he told the Mirror.
“My theory is that guy must have been involved, either in the kidnapping or studying what to do – their movements.”
The divorcee has urged British detectives to contact him.
In his initial testimony given five days after her disappearance, and which is available at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MARREIROS.htm he told investigators that he did not know “of anything suspicious that could be related to the events.”
With regard to where I was at 18.00, whom I was with and the fact that I was seen by a witness at this time next to stairs and lift of block 5 of the Ocean Club: I am not certain where I was at 18.00. It is possible that I was already in my apartment or returning from the bar. In order to arrive at my apartment I would walk along the side of the pool, crossing the stairs of block 4. If I were with someone, this person would be Raj, but as I have already said I do not remember whether I returned with him or before him. I do not remember having seen a lift in any of the apartment blocks. I was not in block 5, but had to pass by it in order to arrive at my apartment. It is possible that I was on the other side of the street opposite block five.
With relation to one of the Ocean Club employees having passed close by: I do not remember having seen Ocean Club staff collecting dirty laundry at this hour.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm
From the Letter of Request:
VIII - Interview to NEIL BERRY, 42, MeXXXXXXXX ROXX, Surrey, SMX 7XX. He should be subject to a buccal swab and hair sample collection and asked the following questions :
At about 6.00 p.m., in particular, where were you ? Who were you with ?
* Considering the fact that you were seen by a witness, clarify what you were doing at that time next to the stairs leading to the upper floor , which are located next to the lift of Block 5 at the Ocean Club, i.e. not far from the apartment from where Madeleine McCann went missing ?
* On that occasion, did you actually pass by an Ocean Club employee that went there to pick up laundry ?
* If yes, what was the reaction like and why ?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: sadie on June 16, 2015, 02:26:04 PM
Disprove any point that I have made. You cant because they are fact.
But ever, as usual stephen, you decry anything that points to Madeleine having been abducted .... even where their are multiople clues/ pointers.
Amarals crew SHOULD Have looked at all these previous missing children Surely as PJ Officers they would be aware of the Elite in Porto being let off with a warning. Surely as PJ they would know of his links with PdL and the Western Algarve. Surely they should have looked closely at the sightings grouped together, up in the Porto region?
We were never alerted to the Porto region sightings and the missing children, both in Porto and the PdL area. It was almost as tho they were being hidden.
I wonder why?
And I wonder why Processos 809 [written en site in Porto with full Police sources] became corrupted by Portimao PJ in processos 807-808.?
Mkae sure that you only use processos 809, folk. That has the original pure facts in it. The other is full of mis/disinformation ..... and is written by Portimao PJ, down in the Algarve about stuff up in Porto, 300 miles away ... Additionally it was written after processos 809, but given an earlier number... for some strange reason &%+((£
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 04:55:36 PM
Some have pits at the bottom some don't there is always a space above the car on the top stop.
There is a lift engine room above the top floor of apartments you can see it in photos
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on June 20, 2015, 11:47:14 PM
K McCann was not interviewed on 10 May as were others of the group. This was a grave mistake and also testament to the fact that the PJ could not have suspected her at the time as is so often pushed as fact.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 20, 2015, 11:54:01 PM
K McCann was not interviewed on 10 May as were others of the group. This was a grave mistake and also testament to the fact that the PJ could not have suspected her at the time as is so often pushed as fact.
So Amaral was lying when he wrote in his book that he already began to suspect the parents of something on the morning of the 4th May was he?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2015, 12:35:30 AM
K McCann was not interviewed on 10 May as were others of the group. This was a grave mistake and also testament to the fact that the PJ could not have suspected her at the time as is so often pushed as fact.
He makes mention throughout of suspicions from day one ... Kate asking to see a priest seemed to set the cat among the pigeons ... he formulated his theory, and he stubbornly stuck to it. So I would say, taking that into consideration, that there were very many investigative oversights as a direct result.
Quote From the start of the investigation, we realised that certain things did not add up and yet, they continued to benefit from favourable treatment; that's what's not normal!
From Chapter 1
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 12:52:10 AM
Yes Brietta I agreee, it was a mistake to give the parents preferential treatment, British police have said as much, the fact that they DID despite normal police suspicions pays testament to....answers on a postcard
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 12:55:58 AM
So Amaral was lying when he wrote in his book that he already began to suspect the parents of something on the morning of the 4th May was he?
No,he wasn't, OBVIOUSLY, but that bears no relation to much, the place and investigation was cockroach crawling early on with myriads of British "involvement"
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 21, 2015, 01:29:43 AM
Yes Brietta I agreee, it was a mistake to give the parents preferential treatment, British police have said as much, the fact that they DID despite normal police suspicions pays testament to....answers on a postcard
Preferntial treatment compared to whom?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2015, 10:09:50 AM
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and any major investigation in any country will miss things, go off on the wrong track, lack resources when most needed... but a quick shortlist in no particular order:
- Crawl spaces - A more thorough analysis of hone records - Mrs Fenn (a more thorough and earlier interview and cross-checked with her friend; with a sound reconstruction) - The alibis of known / suspected sex offenders - Sexual assaults - A more thorough forensic sweep of 5A - A forensic examination of rubbish containers (a brief search of some and of the local dump was done but quite some time later) - The 5J mystery - Evening crèche records - Existing CCTV in PdL (the Paraiso one was checked). - An early appeal to any male carrying a child that evening in the area / anyone who had seen one
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 11:27:57 AM
He wasn't the victim of a crime, only a suspect. BTW - who funded his libel case against the UK newspapers? Max Clifford gave him a lot of help for free after RM pleaded poverty - and then RM employed a top UK solicitor in Louis Charalambous.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2015, 01:00:18 PM
Consular, perhaps. He is a UK citizen. Maybe he didn't ask for any, of course.
I believe Robert Murat holds dual nationality and was domicile in Portugal.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 05:11:03 PM
I only have the Daily Mail quoting El Mundo, December 2007;
El Mundo claims a Foreign Office document, dated May 17, justified the order because of "the specific nature of the case" and because British diplomats "were already helping Madeleine McCann's parents." The paper reported: "An internal document, sent by the Foreign Office of the United Kingdom, orders British diplomats 'to avoid offering support' to Robert Murat, one of the suspects in the Maddie case, unless charges are presented against him."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501440/Madeleine-British-diplomats-told-avoid-offering-support-Murat.html#ixzz3dtzmmaYN Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 23, 2015, 05:33:11 PM
I only have the Daily Mail quoting El Mundo, December 2007;
El Mundo claims a Foreign Office document, dated May 17, justified the order because of "the specific nature of the case" and because British diplomats "were already helping Madeleine McCann's parents." The paper reported: "An internal document, sent by the Foreign Office of the United Kingdom, orders British diplomats 'to avoid offering support' to Robert Murat, one of the suspects in the Maddie case, unless charges are presented against him."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501440/Madeleine-British-diplomats-told-avoid-offering-support-Murat.html#ixzz3dtzmmaYN Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
As I understand if he holds dual nationality he would not be entitled to any consular assistance
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 23, 2015, 05:42:59 PM
I am not going to read the entire book again to see if I can prove or disprove this. Life is short.
Gerry McCann's interview started at 11:15 AM on 4 May. Kate's started at 14:20.
How did Amaral get a head start?
You tell me. He writes in his book that he was already suspicious on the morning of the 4th - either he is lying or he was relying on gut-feel and what he'd been told by other police officers.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 05:59:01 PM
As I understand if he holds dual nationality he would not be entitled to any consular assistance
It's not hard to find out;
In this function appeared a British citizen, Robert J.Q.E. Murat (duly identified in the files from previous work), official resident of Casa Liliana, Rua Ramalhete, Praia da Luz, Lagos. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 23, 2015, 06:08:41 PM
In this function appeared a British citizen, Robert J.Q.E. Murat (duly identified in the files from previous work), official resident of Casa Liliana, Rua Ramalhete, Praia da Luz, Lagos. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm
According to newspaper Correio da Manhã, he arrived in Portugal two weeks ago and began surveying the home of Robert Murat, who holds dual British and Portuguese citizenship and lives
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 23, 2015, 06:14:29 PM
It is not unusual for those with dual nationality to hold only one current passport. With a business in Portugal it may have been beneficial to hold dual citizenship
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 06:21:53 PM
According to newspaper Correio da Manhã, he arrived in Portugal two weeks ago and began surveying the home of Robert Murat, who holds dual British and Portuguese citizenship and lives
He was born in the UK but his father was Portuguese, so he could have taken Portuguese nationality I suppose.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 23, 2015, 06:40:01 PM
He was born in the UK but his father was Portuguese, so he could have taken Portuguese nationality I suppose.
There are many internet references to his dual nationality ... however just because it is on the internet doesn't make it so. He would certainly be entitled to dual nationality and I think it is highly probable ... but no idea if he does hold it ... the references might not refer to his legal situation but to the fact he was half Portuguese and half Brit??
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 10:11:10 PM
Is Murat still a suspect for some?
I guess any patsy would do, but the McCann team have failed every single time trying
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 10:50:36 PM
I guess any patsy would do, but the McCann team have failed every single time trying
SY found it necessary to question him again. Amaral seemed to believe RM was an arguido again. But the Nicola Wall of Silence is holding firm, so it's anybody's guess.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2015, 08:20:28 AM
There are many internet references to his dual nationality ... however just because it is on the internet doesn't make it so. He would certainly be entitled to dual nationality and I think it is highly probable ... but no idea if he does hold it ... the references might not refer to his legal situation but to the fact he was half Portuguese and half Brit??
Yes, the PJ Files say he's British and elsewhere he's 'dual nationality' or 'ex-Pat'. I once had a German neighbour married to a UK soldier. She wasn't planning to register her son as a German/UK citizen because they had conscription in Germany, so I guess parents might think of things like that when they have children. Sometimes there are disadvantages to be considered.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2015, 09:50:43 AM
Yes, the PJ Files say he's British and elsewhere he's 'dual nationality' or 'ex-Pat'. I once had a German neighbour married to a UK soldier. She wasn't planning to register her son as a German/UK citizen because they had conscription in Germany, so I guess parents might think of things like that when they have children. Sometimes there are disadvantages to be considered.
I think he would be proud of both nationalities ... but if it was something his parents neglected to formalise when he was an infant ... he might not have bothered to get round to it as an adult.
During a strike at the passport office some years ago, some people were able to apply for an Irish passport if a grandparent was Irish. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
Do you remember why we're having this conversation? Just realised it may be OT.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2015, 10:56:47 AM
I think he would be proud of both nationalities ... but if it was something his parents neglected to formalise when he was an infant ... he might not have bothered to get round to it as an adult.
During a strike at the passport office some years ago, some people were able to apply for an Irish passport if a grandparent was Irish. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
Do you remember why we're having this conversation? Just realised it may be OT.
Because he didn't get much consular support lol.
Back on topic, I wonder why John Geraghty was never interviewed? Did the PJ ever identify him as the guy who returned the hire car? Why did he get involved?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 24, 2015, 11:04:02 AM
I only have the Daily Mail quoting El Mundo, December 2007;
El Mundo claims a Foreign Office document, dated May 17, justified the order because of "the specific nature of the case" and because British diplomats "were already helping Madeleine McCann's parents." The paper reported: "An internal document, sent by the Foreign Office of the United Kingdom, orders British diplomats 'to avoid offering support' to Robert Murat, one of the suspects in the Maddie case, unless charges are presented against him."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501440/Madeleine-British-diplomats-told-avoid-offering-support-Murat.html#ixzz3dtzmmaYN Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Who wrote the original El Mundo article?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: jassi on June 24, 2015, 11:12:04 AM
Back on topic, I wonder why John Geraghty was never interviewed? Did the PJ ever identify him as the guy who returned the hire car? Why did he get involved?
He probably knew someone who knew someone who knew a member of the group or the family. There seems to be a lot of that in this case.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2015, 11:42:58 AM
He probably knew someone who knew someone who knew a member of the group or the family. There seems to be a lot of that in this case.
He has been described as 'shy'. He never spoke to the newspapers, never gave an interview to the police, nothing. Strange for someone who became involved because that suggests someone who 'puts themselves out there'. Perhaps he met them at the church on 6th May and asked them if they would like to have access to the church 'out of hours' as it were. We don't know, all we know he arranged for them to get the keys and stayed in touch, storing the car for it to be re-inspected. Was it ever examined by the McCanns people? We don't know that either. I have wondered if it was his villa where they had the 'birthday BBQ'.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 24, 2015, 02:31:56 PM
He has been described as 'shy'. He never spoke to the newspapers, never gave an interview to the police, nothing. Strange for someone who became involved because that suggests someone who 'puts themselves out there'. Perhaps he met them at the church on 6th May and asked them if they would like to have access to the church 'out of hours' as it were. We don't know, all we know he arranged for them to get the keys and stayed in touch, storing the car for it to be re-inspected. Was it ever examined by the McCanns people? We don't know that either. I have wondered if it was his villa where they had the 'birthday BBQ'.
He is probably Gerry's golf buddy. He's a wealthy man so did he own an apartment in PDL e.g. St James Apartments?
5. With regard to the possible sighting of arguido Gerry McCann next to a pink coloured block of apartments at a site opposite the Luz cemetery, we can inform you that this an establishment called 'St James Portuguesa Lda', lots 1 and 2 being situated in the positions mentioned, from the outside the spaces corresponding to Lot 1 can be seen of a total of apartment designated as follows: 101-104, 111-114, 121-124, 105-109, 115-119, 125-129.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
Amaral was removed before investigating that lead.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 02:50:16 PM
The DCCB report arrives, Amaral is ejected, just coincidental timing?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2015, 04:39:07 PM
The DCCB report arrives, Amaral is ejected, just coincidental timing?
As far as I can glean from that ... a cleaner had been arranged for the villa the McCann family were staying in ... and the gardener planted flowers in the garden.
Exactly what is it I'm missing?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Anna on June 24, 2015, 05:31:53 PM
He has been described as 'shy'. He never spoke to the newspapers, never gave an interview to the police, nothing. Strange for someone who became involved because that suggests someone who 'puts themselves out there'. Perhaps he met them at the church on 6th May and asked them if they would like to have access to the church 'out of hours' as it were. We don't know, all we know he arranged for them to get the keys and stayed in touch, storing the car for it to be re-inspected. Was it ever examined by the McCanns people? We don't know that either. I have wondered if it was his villa where they had the 'birthday BBQ'.
I read somewhere that it was.....might be in one of these somewhere
Is this the email to prince charles, that enraged GA? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484797/Sacked-maid-kidnapped-Madeleine-bosses.html
That looks nothing like him - his picture is in the Boavista golf club book posted above.
More than 150 police officers have been drafted into the area-and yesterday British detectives from the McCann's home county of Leicestershire flew in to join the hunt which also took in the Boavista golf course, again a mile from where she was abducted.
Hunt at Black Rock News of the World (article no longer online)
Ross Hall & Carole Aye Maung in Praia da Luz, Portugal 6 May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id399.html
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2015, 07:45:11 PM
So many coincidences in this case. According to Kate's book Gerry joined Rothley Park Golf Club before she had Madeleine, and he had been to Portugal a couple of times to play golf. At home he played every Monday. Gerry said in his statements that he had been to Portugal once, in 1994.
On 25th March 2007 the Renault Scenic was hired by a Kenneth Walkden and some friends who were on their annual golfing holiday. Mr Walkden and his friends were members of the Rothley Park Golf Club. He says he didn't know the McCanns. I wonder if he knew John Geraghty? http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/chasing-cars-doctors.html http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2015, 08:08:33 PM
5. With regard to the possible sighting of arguido Gerry McCann next to a pink coloured block of apartments at a site opposite the Luz cemetery, we can inform you that this an establishment called 'St James Portuguesa Lda', lots 1 and 2 being situated in the positions mentioned, from the outside the spaces corresponding to Lot 1 can be seen of a total of apartment designated as follows: 101-104, 111-114, 121-124, 105-109, 115-119, 125-129.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
Amaral was removed before investigating that lead.
This is supposed to be Geraghty too. Is it the same man as number 5?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 09:02:42 PM
This is becoming like the CMOMM site. John Gerarghty. the police were not interested in him in the slightest. but we have a dozen pictures of innocent people to trawl through for some reason.
I've not even understood the thinking behind any suspicion of him and what's supposed to have happened or what dumping their car at his after the police went over it and removed large chunks really means
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2015, 09:44:00 PM
This is becoming like the CMOMM site. John Gerarghty. the police were not interested in him in the slightest. but we have a dozen pictures of innocent people to trawl through for some reason.
I've not even understood the thinking behind any suspicion of him and what's supposed to have happened or what dumping their car at his after the police went over it and removed large chunks really means
It was said he stored it in his garage so the McCanns could have it inspected themselves, but no reports that they did that. He returned it to the Hire Company too. There's also a pre-hire inspection sheet with his and Michael Wright's signatures on it. He was a member of the Boavista Golf club which was searched at one point I believe, so it was close.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on June 25, 2015, 12:21:19 AM
It was said he stored it in his garage so the McCanns could have it inspected themselves, but no reports that they did that. He returned it to the Hire Company too. There's also a pre-hire inspection sheet with his and Michael Wright's signatures on it. He was a member of the Boavista Golf club which was searched at one point I believe, so it was close.
inspect it themselves?
@)(++(*
Ok
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 25, 2015, 12:35:28 AM
But the BBC last night quoted a source close to Mr and Mrs McCann who said they were considering carrying out their own tests on the vehicle, which was being kept in a "safe place to avoid any possibility of evidence being planted".
But the BBC last night quoted a source close to Mr and Mrs McCann who said they were considering carrying out their own tests on the vehicle, which was being kept in a "safe place to avoid any possibility of evidence being planted".
Couldn't make it up, what a stupid stupid farce, shame on them
The ludicrous nature of this is beyond a joke.
How many times have the mccanns, suspects in their daughters disappearance demanded access to the police files , or here the case ?
The sheer arrogance of it defies belief.
They clearly believe they are untouchable.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 09:03:26 AM
I have been passed this from another poster on Amazon.
To put that into some kind of context, many clinical tests are nowhere near that reliable. If the mods want to move it to another thread, that is fine.
You might find this useful when discussing the dogs and the ''Incredibly unreliable'' claim, which was demonstrably false http://www.caninesearchsolutions.org/wisconsin_v._zapata.pdf
In particular, this paragraph
''* The negative response to the question of the canines' detection reliability was based upon the dogs' actual searches in the field. The judge concluded that any/each time a cadaver dog searched and cleared an area without providing an indication and no person or other tool returned to the search location to verify that there WASN'T something there, the dog's conclusion that the area did not contain the odor of human remains had not been confirmed and was therefore was not reliable. ''
This was the basic problem with quoting the Zapata case. The measure the judge used to determine reliability was neither scientifically nor statistically valid.
If the dog came back after a search having not registed a hit, there are only two possibilities
1) The dog is correct, there is no evidence of cadaver, ie a ''true negative'' or 2) The dog is incorrect, it has missed the evidence, and this was therefore a ''false negative''
However, in the Zapata case the judge decided that unless someone had actually checked the area again, each 'negative' was a 'false negative'
Now clearly, this is absolutely not a valid conclusion, but using this strange formula has the effect of reducing the apparent reliability of the dogs considerably. In effect it is saying ''the dog is only right if it finds something'', and takes no account of the searches when the dog doesn't find anything because there is nothing to find. It also raises the issue that the subsequent searches are equally only as good as the dog searching - unless he thought he could send out a handler with particuarly keen senses.
It also has little validity with respect to Zapata because it concerns purely 'false' negatives, and not false positives.Likewise, in the McCann case the issue concerns positive indications, which studies have shown as being of the order of 90% accurate.
In the Zapata case the dogs alerted to locations the accused subsequently confirmed he had moved the body to.
The data from the Oesterhelweg et al study is far more reliable as the study was in controlled conditions and compared to a non-cadaver. In summary, that showed the following:
Sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100), accuracy (92-100).
To put that into some kind of context, many clinical tests are nowhere near that reliable.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Benice on June 25, 2015, 09:14:04 AM
Pure speculation on my part but - the McCanns had been told there was evidence in the car of Madeleine's dead body having been there. They knew this could not be true and so to have another inspection would seem appropriate at that time. However IMO once it emerged that there was no evidence and the PJ had lied to them - that was no longer necessary.
If the McCanns were Amarals prime suspects - why didn't he have them followed from the moment they acquired a car? He would have either caught them in the act - or known that no body had ever been carried in it. End of.
He saw fit to have the UK police put under surveillance - but not the suspects? !!
You really can't get more farcical than that IMO.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 09:14:46 AM
How many times have the mccanns, suspects in their daughters disappearance demanded access to the police files , or here the case ?
The sheer arrogance of it defies belief.
They clearly believe they are untouchable.
Police chief says 'we were too hasty' in naming McCanns as suspects
Portugal's most senior police officer has suggested that detectives may have been too hasty in making the McCanns official suspects in the investigation into the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/03/ukcrime.world
The only people who appear to be untouchable in the original police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance are those who witnesses reported to have seen in the vicinity of the apartment.
Those persons (or person) have not been traced and since this forum has confirmed that suspicions against the parents were formed on the 4th of May ... how assiduously were they looked for?
If they were not traced to be either ruled in or ruled out of the inquiry it leaves a gaping hole in the conduct of the case.
I realise your prejudice does not allow you to contemplate the reality of the professional omissions in the original case ... but that is one of them.
Considering that all the witnesses were unconnected and independent ... the failure to keep their statements in mind is one of the things I think indicates that just like you, the investigation was less interested in finding the real perpetrator than in the prosecution of Kate McCann.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 09:20:10 AM
Police chief says 'we were too hasty' in naming McCanns as suspects
Portugal's most senior police officer has suggested that detectives may have been too hasty in making the McCanns official suspects in the investigation into the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/03/ukcrime.world
The only people who appear to be untouchable in the original police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance are those who witnesses reported to have seen in the vicinity of the apartment.
Those persons (or person) have not been traced and since this forum has confirmed that suspicions against the parents were formed on the 4th of May ... how assiduously were they looked for?
If they were not traced to be either ruled in or ruled out of the inquiry it leaves a gaping hole in the conduct of the case.
I realise your prejudice does not allow you to contemplate the reality of the professional omissions in the original case ... but that is one of them.
Considering that all the witnesses were unconnected and independent ... the failure to keep their statements in mind is one of the things I think indicates that just like you, the investigation was less interested in finding the real perpetrator than in the prosecution of Kate McCann.
The prejudice and bias are yours.
You are on here to defend the mccanns.
There is no way potential suspects in a case would be allowed to view all case files as the mccanns repeatedly requested.
However, even more importantly, THE CRIME IS STILL UNKNOWN.
Try to comprehend that means beyond your blind devotion to the mccanns.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 09:25:58 AM
Pure speculation on my part but - the McCanns had been told there was evidence in the car of Madeleine's dead body having been there. They knew this could not be true and so to have another inspection would seem appropriate at that time. However IMO once it emerged that there was no evidence and the PJ had lied to them - that was no longer necessary.
If the McCanns were Amarals prime suspects - why didn't he have them followed from the moment they acquired a car? He would have either caught them in the act - or known that no body had ever been carried in it. End of.
He saw fit to have the UK police put under surveillance - but not the suspects? !!
You really can't get more farcical than that IMO.
In the knowledge that Madeleine's remains had never been in the vehicle they knew that the 'evidence' presented to them that she had been there was false.
It was prudent for them to keep and perhaps even purchase the vehicle ... I find nothing extraordinary in that.
What I do find remarkable is that if the vehicle was as pivotal to the prosecution case as the investigators apparently believed ... why had it been released back into the McCann custody?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 09:33:32 AM
In the knowledge that Madeleine's remains had never been in the vehicle they knew that the 'evidence' presented to them that she had been there was false.
It was prudent for them to keep and perhaps even purchase the vehicle ... I find nothing extraordinary in that.
What I do find remarkable is that if the vehicle was as pivotal to the prosecution case as the investigators apparently believed ... why had it been released back into the McCann custody?
It is not know where Madeleine or her remains have been.
Merely unconfirmed forensics.
and it should never have been given back to the mccanns.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Eleanor on June 25, 2015, 09:34:05 AM
We are getting dangerously close to insults again. And I don't want to have to delete what are often interesting posts. So please stop now. Insults add nothing to the debate.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 09:35:06 AM
There is no way potential suspects in a case would be allowed to view all case files as the mccanns repeatedly requested.
However, even more importantly, THE CRIME IS STILL UNKNOWN.
Try to comprehend that means beyond your blind devotion to the mccanns.
Please concentrate on making the effort to stop repeating yourself and respond to the content of my post which refers to the men or man seen by witnesses in the vicinity of the McCann apartment and who were not traced and eliminated from the inquiry?
For example ... who were the two blond men observed on the balcony overlooking the McCann apartment?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 09:39:35 AM
Please concentrate on making the effort to stop repeating yourself and respond to the content of my post which refers to the men or man seen by witnesses in the vicinity of the McCann apartment and who were not traced and eliminated from the inquiry?
For example ... who were the two blond men observed on the balcony overlooking the McCann apartment?
I'm afraid to say that merely because people were seen in the vicinity of the apartment, does not make them suspects.
and by the way who saw these blond men ?
and how many apartments overlooked each other ?
Do you really think that people looking at another building constitutes direct evidence of abduction ?
If you do, the expression clutching at straws doesn't even come close.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 25, 2015, 09:44:46 AM
In the knowledge that Madeleine's remains had never been in the vehicle they knew that the 'evidence' presented to them that she had been there was false.
It was prudent for them to keep and perhaps even purchase the vehicle ... I find nothing extraordinary in that.
What I do find remarkable is that if the vehicle was as pivotal to the prosecution case as the investigators apparently believed ... why had it been released back into the McCann custody?
Try looking at it from the bit in italics. There are then two main possibilities.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Benice on June 25, 2015, 10:07:03 AM
I'm afraid to say that merely because people were seen in the vicinity of the apartment, does not make them suspects.
and by the way who saw these blond men ?
and how many apartments overlooked each other ?
Do you really think that people looking at another building constitutes direct evidence of abduction ?
If you do, the expression clutching at straws doesn't even come close.
Quote British witnesses: 'We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment' By FIONA BARTON, DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 15:55 31 December 2007
Two British sisters gave a dramatic account of a pair of strangers watching the Ocean Club pool and tapas bar hours before Madeleine McCann vanished.
In an exclusive interview, Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire told how they saw two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz. unquote
Quote British witnesses: 'We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment' By FIONA BARTON, DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 15:55 31 December 2007
Two British sisters gave a dramatic account of a pair of strangers watching the Ocean Club pool and tapas bar hours before Madeleine McCann vanished.
In an exclusive interview, Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire told how they saw two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz. unquote
I wonder if they reported their sighting to the police as well as the press? if not, why not? The PJ couldn't investigate something no-one told them about.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 10:26:51 AM
Quote British witnesses: 'We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment' By FIONA BARTON, DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 15:55 31 December 2007
Two British sisters gave a dramatic account of a pair of strangers watching the Ocean Club pool and tapas bar hours before Madeleine McCann vanished.
In an exclusive interview, Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire told how they saw two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz. unquote
I'm afraid to say that merely because people were seen in the vicinity of the apartment, does not make them suspects.
and by the way who saw these blond men ?
and how many apartments overlooked each other ?
Do you really think that people looking at another building constitutes direct evidence of abduction ?
If you do, the expression clutching at straws doesn't even come close.
I would have thought that witnesses who had noticed something they took the bother to inform the police about might be considered with a bit more respect than they have been. Quite often in child abduction cases, the only evidence is eye witness testimony.
Don't tell me an expert such as yourself is unaware of the sisters Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire?
**snip Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
They intended to remain anonymous but when their names were leaked to a Portuguese newspaper and they found themselves wrongly accused of waiting eight months before coming forward, they decided to reveal the truth.
The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony.
I wonder if they reported their sighting to the police as well as the press? if not, why not? The PJ couldn't investigate something no-one told them about.
Jane Jensen not only participated in the search ... she reported the men seen by herself and her sister that morning.
Bearing in mind the police had a lot on their minds in the aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ... how long would it have taken to knock on the door of Apartment C to ...
(a) check out the occupiers
(b) ascertain if they had seen anything suspicious or helpful
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 10:43:31 AM
I would have thought that witnesses who had noticed something they took the bother to inform the police about might be considered with a bit more respect than they have been. Quite often in child abduction cases, the only evidence is eye witness testimony.
Don't tell me an expert such as yourself is unaware of the sisters Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire?
**snip Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
They intended to remain anonymous but when their names were leaked to a Portuguese newspaper and they found themselves wrongly accused of waiting eight months before coming forward, they decided to reveal the truth.
The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony.
and how many people were staring at other apartments ?
Why do you repeatedly ask questions when you never accept the answers? You asked who saw the 2 blonde men and I gave you the answer. Full stop. As far as know - neither of them have come forward to be eliminated.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 11:01:06 AM
Why do you repeatedly ask questions when you never accept the answers? You asked who saw the 2 blonde men and I gave you the answer. Full stop. As far as know - neither of them have come forward to be eliminated.
Well surely the police as a matter of practice would have checked the surrounding apartments ?
Has there been any report in this case of a blond abductor ?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 11:20:04 AM
and again a simple question, do you really believe that two blond men looking at an apartment is evidence of abduction ?
Also, how many people were looking at other apartments ?
Did these blond men see Madeleine ?
and was any blond seen in the vicinity of the apartment on May the 3 rd 2007 ?
I knew you were well aware of the sisters Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire which is why I found it amusing you could not let discussion flow but had to ask for a cite instead.
It is neither your place nor mine to speculate on the information given to the police by the sisters.
It was for the police to investigate - that is their job after all - and rule in or rule out the relevance of information received.
In this particular instance the simple expediency of knocking the door of an apartment in the building they were 'guarding' would have sufficed to do that.
A glaring example of a simple diligence which seems to have been totally ignored by the investigators.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2015, 11:20:56 AM
Jane Jensen not only participated in the search ... she reported the men seen by herself and her sister that morning.
Bearing in mind the police had a lot on their minds in the aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ... how long would it have taken to knock on the door of Apartment C to ...
(a) check out the occupiers
(b) ascertain if they had seen anything suspicious or helpful
It is alleged they spoke to the Portuguese police in the news article. It is also alleged that they saw Murat near G5A on the evening of 3rd May, which the PJ would have been very interested in in my opinion. It is further alleged that calls to UK police and Crimestoppers were ignored. They were eventually interviewed because they emailed Clarence Mitchell. The UK police then contacted them and apologised for ignoring them and interviewed them for 11 hours! They did have a lot to say didn't they?
The reason they finally 'came forward' (to the press) is because their names were 'leaked to Portuguese newspapers'. By whom? There is no evidence that the PJ ever received their statements, so it wouldn't be them because if they do have the statements they thought them important enough to keep back when they released the files. It surely wouldn't be UK police leaking to Portuguese newspapers. The only other possibility is Metodo 3 or Clarence Mitchell or both. Metodo 3 also spoke to the sisters, after the UK police did, allegedly. The article says they dined at the Tapas on 3rd May, but they're not on the booking list.
Sound like typical Metodo 3 witnesses to me.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 11:30:22 AM
It is alleged they spoke to the Portuguese police in the news article. It is also alleged that they saw Murat near G5A on the evening of 3rd May, which the PJ would have been very interested in in my opinion. It is further alleged that calls to UK police and Crimestoppers were ignored. They were eventually interviewed because they emailed Clarence Mitchell. The UK police then contacted them and apologised for ignoring them and interviewed them for 11 hours! They did have a lot to say didn't they?
The reason they finally 'came forward' (to the press) is because their names were 'leaked to Portuguese newspapers'. By whom? There is no evidence that the PJ ever received their statements, so it wouldn't be them because if they do have the statements they thought them important enough to keep back when they released the files. It surely wouldn't be UK police leaking to Portuguese newspapers. The only other possibility is Metodo 3 or Clarence Mitchell or both. Metodo 3 also spoke to the sisters, after the UK police did, allegedly. The article says they dined at the Tapas on 3rd May, but they're not on the booking list.
Sound like typical Metodo 3 witnesses to me.
Do you think Ms Jensen found the sighting of Murat suspicious at the time or even worth mentioning to the police at the time? Why would it be? Why would she?
The sisters were concerned about the two blonde men who they did find suspicious ... I suggest this is the only information which was relayed to the police on the morning of the 4th.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 11:34:01 AM
It is alleged they spoke to the Portuguese police in the news article. It is also alleged that they saw Murat near G5A on the evening of 3rd May, which the PJ would have been very interested in in my opinion. It is further alleged that calls to UK police and Crimestoppers were ignored. They were eventually interviewed because they emailed Clarence Mitchell. The UK police then contacted them and apologised for ignoring them and interviewed them for 11 hours! They did have a lot to say didn't they?
The reason they finally 'came forward' (to the press) is because their names were 'leaked to Portuguese newspapers'. By whom? There is no evidence that the PJ ever received their statements, so it wouldn't be them because if they do have the statements they thought them important enough to keep back when they released the files. It surely wouldn't be UK police leaking to Portuguese newspapers. The only other possibility is Metodo 3 or Clarence Mitchell or both. Metodo 3 also spoke to the sisters, after the UK police did, allegedly. The article says they dined at the Tapas on 3rd May, but they're not on the booking list.
Sound like typical Metodo 3 witnesses to me.
So were these two being economic with the truth ?
Were they seeking their 15 minutes of fame ?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 11:52:20 AM
What I find truly amazing is the alacrity with which the statements of people unconnected in any way to the McCann family are rubbished and ridiculed.
Particularly when avenues of investigation are indicated which should have been investigated but were disregarded are concerned. It is a common theme that witnesses had to be quite persistent to be taken notice of (no ... Stephen I'm not giving you a cite for something you well know).
Those are the ones we know of. How many potential witnesses were similarly disregarded or who made statements thinking they would be investigated.
That is something we will never know ...
However for witnesses to be ridiculed and accused of claiming their fifteen minutes of fame ... rather brings not honest people reporting what they saw into disrepute but those who seek to denigrate them because what they may have to say doesn't fit in with their take on events.
The sisters saw what they saw ... they reported what they saw the following morning ... I'm not calling them liars.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
What I find truly amazing is the alacrity with which the statements of people unconnected in any way to the McCann family are rubbished and ridiculed.
Particularly when avenues of investigation are indicated which should have been investigated but were disregarded are concerned. It is a common theme that witnesses had to be quite persistent to be taken notice of (no ... Stephen I'm not giving you a cite for something you well know).
Those are the ones we know of. How many potential witnesses were similarly disregarded or who made statements thinking they would be investigated.
That is something we will never know ...
However for witnesses to be ridiculed and accused of claiming their fifteen minutes of fame ... rather brings not honest people reporting what they saw into disrepute but those who seek to denigrate them because what they may have to say doesn't fit in with their take on events.
The sisters saw what they saw ... they reported what they saw the following morning ... I'm not calling them liars.
You are till clutching at straws.
How do you know they saw What they stated ?
After all you're only discussing it to bring abduction in the frame, regardless of the fact there is no evidence one took place.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Lace on June 25, 2015, 12:10:11 PM
After all you're only discussing it to bring abduction in the frame, regardless of the fact there is no evidence one took place.
I am discussing what the sisters saw in the context of the thread. Since you are unable to take the discussion forward with an opinion on what may have happened as a result of that it seems it remains something not investigated at the time.
There is nothing ruling in or ruling out the sighting of these men who the sisters could probably have provided efits for if anyone had bothered.
**snip The pair, tanned and in Bermuda shorts, were standing outside the patio doors of a groundfloor apartment, which had been unoccupied all week, and were looking out over the resort's family swimming pool and restaurant area. Mrs Wiltshire, 58, a mother of two, said: "It was odd because I hadn't seen them before. In May the resort wasn't busy.
If you don't think their statement was worth checking out in the immediate aftermath of the disappearance of a child, do you have any idea at all of the reasoning behind police appeals for witnesses to come forward in similar circumstances?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 12:39:09 PM
I am discussing what the sisters saw in the context of the thread. Since you are unable to take the discussion forward with an opinion on what may have happened as a result of that it seems it remains something not investigated at the time.
There is nothing ruling in or ruling out the sighting of these men who the sisters could probably have provided efits for if anyone had bothered.
**snip The pair, tanned and in Bermuda shorts, were standing outside the patio doors of a groundfloor apartment, which had been unoccupied all week, and were looking out over the resort's family swimming pool and restaurant area. Mrs Wiltshire, 58, a mother of two, said: "It was odd because I hadn't seen them before. In May the resort wasn't busy.
If you don't think their statement was worth checking out in the immediate aftermath of the disappearance of a child, do you have any idea at all of the reasoning behind police appeals for witnesses to come forward in similar circumstances?
Didn't the police check nearby accomodation ?
Do you really consider 'seeing' two blond men evidence of abduction ?
Was there any indication of witnesses seeing a blond man or man that evening ?
Do you actually know whether all people in that area, on that night or previous ones, came forward ?
and finally, how is moaning to me going to help about two women allegedly seeing two blond men ?
and did anyone else see two blond men in the vicinity, during those days ?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 01:35:28 PM
I doubt that we will ever know whether some people made claims due to:
- genuine concern that that may have seen something relevant but were unable to get through to police lines at the time;
- the odd chance that something that they had perhaps seen, or even incorrectly remembered, could have led to a share in the massive award initially on offer;
- 15 mins of fame, or a payment from a media-hungry tabloid.
All are possible.
The question still remains in the case of the sisters: was their sighting checked out or not?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2015, 02:18:53 PM
"Michael and Angus suggested that we arrange for a full forensic screen to be performed on the Renualt Scenic hire car which had been left with a friend in PDL" ...... "A forensic team had been sent over to PDL to carry out the full examination of the Renault Scenic" source book by KM
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2015, 02:22:26 PM
Would a private forensic laboratory offer that service? They would obviously do the analysis but are they equipped to do the collection as well?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Anna on June 25, 2015, 02:23:04 PM
"Michael and Angus suggested that we arrange for a full forensic screen to be performed on the Renualt Scenic hire car which had been left with a friend in PDL" ...... "A forensic team had been sent over to PDL to carry out the full examination of the Renault Scenic" source book by KM
Thanks Pegusas,
It has also emerged that an independent forensic team from the UK has stripped the McCanns' hire car. The forensic scientists - who spent more than nine hours examining the vehicle - have been hired by the McCanns to rubbish Portuguese police "evidence". The Renault has been at the centre of the detectives' claims against the couple since they were both named as arguidos at the beginning of the month.
Portuguese newspapers reported that DNA found in the car boot indicated Madeleine's blood, hair and bodily fluids. The car had been garaged at the home of John Geraghty, a friend of the McCanns, near Praia da Luz. A source said the team "took as many samples as possible". "It was an extremely thorough job." The car has since been returned to the Budget rental company at Faro Aiport. British scientists who carried out tests on the car for the Portuguese police have said their results have been "twisted". The Forensic Science Service in Birmingham is reported to have written to the detectives complaining that they had "wildly misused" their findings.
I doubt that we will ever know whether some people made claims due to:
- genuine concern that that may have seen something relevant but were unable to get through to police lines at the time;
- the odd chance that something that they had perhaps seen, or even incorrectly remembered, could have led to a share in the massive award initially on offer;
- 15 mins of fame, or a payment from a media-hungry tabloid.
All are possible.
The question still remains in the case of the sisters: was their sighting checked out or not?
They say they were ignored by the PJ. They say they were ignored by LP. They rang Crimestoppers and no-one contacted them. Seems both Police forces we remiss. If they told the paper they dined at the Tapas why weren't they on the booking sheet?
My conclusion is they emailed CM only, he and Metodo 3 responded then leaked to the Portuguese press because they were keen to publicise anything which made the PJ look bad and supported the abduction thesis. It was a bonus that they say they saw RM too. As their evidence doesn't appear in the files what did LP do with it? Throw it away? How could anyone check it out therefore?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 05:32:42 PM
Would a private forensic laboratory offer that service? They would obviously do the analysis but are they equipped to do the collection as well?
Fair point, unless part of the team was composed of trained forensic officers (or at least some who could prove that they complied with standard procedures). On the other hand, AFAIK, not all (any?) of the vehicles taken for inspection by the PJ were on low-loaders... and few forensic inspections involved white jumpsuits.
I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this private forensic sweep was though.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 05:35:18 PM
I doubt that we will ever know whether some people made claims due to:
- genuine concern that that may have seen something relevant but were unable to get through to police lines at the time;
- the odd chance that something that they had perhaps seen, or even incorrectly remembered, could have led to a share in the massive award initially on offer;
- 15 mins of fame, or a payment from a media-hungry tabloid.
All are possible.
The question still remains in the case of the sisters: was their sighting checked out or not?
That we may never know.
However, I find it hard to believe neighbouring properties weren't checked , including the one with the two 'blondes'.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 05:47:40 PM
However, I find it hard to believe neighbouring properties weren't checked , including the one with the two 'blondes'.
Checked for what "no sign of the missing minor"? I haven't found any PJ rog requests for the sisters. Perhaps they were interviewed at some point by the UK and either it wasn't deemed relevant or it's part of the restricted UK side of the files.
There isn't much in the files concerning the occupants / owners of even Block 5 aside from the T9 and eventually Mrs Fenn.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 05:52:09 PM
Checked for what "no sign of the missing minor"? I haven't found any PJ rog requests for the sisters. Perhaps they were interviewed at some point by the UK and either it wasn't deemed relevant or it's part of the restricted UK side of the files.
There isn't much in the files concerning the occupants / owners of even Block 5 aside from the T9 and eventually Mrs Fenn.
I would I have thought be the routine thing to do in a thorough investigation.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 05:53:19 PM
Checked for what "no sign of the missing minor"? I haven't found any PJ rog requests for the sisters. Perhaps they were interviewed at some point by the UK and either it wasn't deemed relevant or it's part of the restricted UK side of the files.
There isn't much in the files concerning the occupants / owners of even Block 5 aside from the T9 and eventually Mrs Fenn.
Mr and Mrs Moyes have made no mention of being questioned by the police ... they were in the apartment above Mrs Fenn ... had been out and about in the village ... had sat out on their balcony ... and had participated in the search.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 05:55:04 PM
It was probably the balcony of 5C? The occupied apartments were A B D G H K.
According to the Daily Mail report, the balcony was on the first floor judging by the one circled. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html
Do you think the balcony of 5c on the ground floor would have provided a good view of 5a?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on June 26, 2015, 03:11:34 AM
The newspaper circled 5D but IMO they probably meant to circle 5C?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
According to the Daily Mail report, the balcony was on the first floor judging by the one circled. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html
Do you think the balcony of 5c on the ground floor would have provided a good view of 5a?
I don't know if there was a direct line of sight to 5A, Misty.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Lace on July 04, 2015, 02:58:16 PM
Was it just luminol they used on the bedclothes? Did they search for skin cells?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 04, 2015, 08:46:58 PM
The sisters story sounds just like another Clarence Mitchell "story"and it's a proven fact he has talked rubbish on so many occasions
I will never forget his" DNA partially matched Madeleines " rubbish in the News of the World when they found a bag of rubbish near the airport!
pathetic 0/10
And to think he was PAID from the Madeleine Fund for this crap
What is it that you know about the 'sisters' which makes you think they were talking rubbish? They seemed to be perfectly normal people to me who came forward because they had info which they thought could be useful to the investigation. What have I missed?
IIRC CM's salary was paid by a benefactor (Edward Kennedy?) at least for the first 12 months and not from the fund. (from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary)
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2015, 12:22:13 PM
If Madeleine had been taken from her bed, then the person who took her would have shed skin cells which hold DNA.
There was no Portuguese DNA database in 2007. The law creating it came into effect on 12 Feb 2008. It sat empty for years. For entries on criminals, it is restricted to convictions re serious crimes. It currently has around 5,000 such entries.
The lady in my current avatar (Jul 2015) is Prof. Helena Machado, who (thankfully) has written many scientific articles on the development of the Portuguese DNA database, and a couple relating specifically to the McCann and Cipriano cases.
My blog has more, but the bottom line is simple. Do not expect an SY approach to DNA existed in Portugal in 2007, as it did not.
This sheds light on why Andy took so many DNA experts to Coimbra/INML last year.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2015, 12:57:07 PM
There was no Portuguese DNA database in 2007. The law creating it came into effect on 12 Feb 2008. It sat empty for years. For entries on criminals, it is restricted to convictions re serious crimes. It currently has around 5,000 such entries.
The lady in my current avatar (Jul 2015) is Prof. Helena Machado, who (thankfully) has written many scientific articles on the development of the Portuguese DNA database, and a couple relating specifically to the McCann and Cipriano cases.
My blog has more, but the bottom line is simple. Do not expect an SY approach to DNA existed in Portugal in 2007, as it did not.
This sheds light on why Andy took so many DNA experts to Coimbra/INML last year.
Ah... I thought that was you in the avatar. LOL Yes, Helena Machado (and Felipe Santos) have written some very interesting research.
I know that there was no DNA database... and even now there aren't that many samples.
Some cold cases, however, have been solved by the careful preservation of samples from crime scenes... even though the technology wasn't available to do much with them at the time. Conversely, some potentially useful forensic material in other cases wasn't correctly preserved (because protocols evolved and certain procedures weren't consideered to be important at the time).
A complicating factor, as you probably know, if that the first Portuguese CSI manual was only introduced in 2009.
20 May 2009 PJ Laboratory receives 24 thousand requests per year
by Joana de Belém
The PJ’s Scientific Police Laboratory (SPL) receives one hundred and fifty requests for tests per day, which sum up to two thousand every month. Last year, the SPL received 24 thousand requests. The waiting time “is high”, admits the director of the Scientific Police National Laboratory, where approximately two hundred people work. An “activity that faces the difficulty of the lack of resources and the response within useful time”, says Carlos Farinha.
Nevertheless, the same senior official, who spoke yesterday during the 4th National Congress for Criminology, in Oporto, noted that the Portuguese lab was rated, in an international study whose results were known last week, the sixth best among a total of 71 bodies.
Carlos Farinha also mentioned that the increase in television series like CSI creates some equivocations. “We’re not as good looking as they are, but the main difference is the time notion”, not only as far as test results are concerned but also concerning the data that investigators have access to. “Nobody accesses that much information at the simple touch of a button. Apart from that, if any policeman could access information in that manner, we’d have a big brother, a society without balance between justice and freedom”, the investigator stressed.
Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.
When questioned about a possible connection between the launch of this manual and the allegedly careless manner how policemen entered, two years ago, into the room of Madeleine McCann – the little English girl that disappeared in the Algarve, in 2007 -, Farrinha asserts that “it’s a reducing perspective”. “I’m not associating this to anything at all”, he concluded.
Presently, the laboratory develops efforts to improve the photofits of missing persons, namely their adjustment to physiognomic changes that take place.
Still during the congress, inspector Jorge Duarte explained the change in the profile of the computer criminal. The first protagonists, in the 90s [the so-called hackers] “weren’t seen as criminals but rather as geniuses, were between 14 and 24 years old, students, generally middle class”. The “social profile has changed, the age has stretched to 34, it includes medium level professionals and re-offenders”, the member of the PJ’s High Technology Criminal Investigation unit explained, adding that, due to the easiness in escaping justice, the number of re-offenders tends to increase over time.
Maria Carneiro, a service chief at the Forensics Medicine Institute, mentioned the few cases of homicidal women. “Women are not as criminal in violent terms as men and the cases where they kill for pleasure are extremely rare”. When that happens, “those are cases of serious psychopathology and generally not imputable”, she concludes.
source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2015, 05:17:30 PM
Ah... I thought that was you in the avatar. LOL Yes, Helena Machado (and Felipe Santos) have written some very interesting research.
I know that there was no DNA database... and even now there aren't that many samples.
Some cold cases, however, have been solved by the careful preservation of samples from crime scenes... even though the technology wasn't available to do much with them at the time. Conversely, some potentially useful forensic material in other cases wasn't correctly preserved (because protocols evolved and certain procedures weren't consideered to be important at the time).
A complicating factor, as you probably know, if that the first Portuguese CSI manual was only introduced in 2009.
20 May 2009 PJ Laboratory receives 24 thousand requests per year
by Joana de Belém
The PJ’s Scientific Police Laboratory (SPL) receives one hundred and fifty requests for tests per day, which sum up to two thousand every month. Last year, the SPL received 24 thousand requests. The waiting time “is high”, admits the director of the Scientific Police National Laboratory, where approximately two hundred people work. An “activity that faces the difficulty of the lack of resources and the response within useful time”, says Carlos Farinha.
Nevertheless, the same senior official, who spoke yesterday during the 4th National Congress for Criminology, in Oporto, noted that the Portuguese lab was rated, in an international study whose results were known last week, the sixth best among a total of 71 bodies.
Carlos Farinha also mentioned that the increase in television series like CSI creates some equivocations. “We’re not as good looking as they are, but the main difference is the time notion”, not only as far as test results are concerned but also concerning the data that investigators have access to. “Nobody accesses that much information at the simple touch of a button. Apart from that, if any policeman could access information in that manner, we’d have a big brother, a society without balance between justice and freedom”, the investigator stressed.
Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.
When questioned about a possible connection between the launch of this manual and the allegedly careless manner how policemen entered, two years ago, into the room of Madeleine McCann – the little English girl that disappeared in the Algarve, in 2007 -, Farrinha asserts that “it’s a reducing perspective”. “I’m not associating this to anything at all”, he concluded.
Presently, the laboratory develops efforts to improve the photofits of missing persons, namely their adjustment to physiognomic changes that take place.
Still during the congress, inspector Jorge Duarte explained the change in the profile of the computer criminal. The first protagonists, in the 90s [the so-called hackers] “weren’t seen as criminals but rather as geniuses, were between 14 and 24 years old, students, generally middle class”. The “social profile has changed, the age has stretched to 34, it includes medium level professionals and re-offenders”, the member of the PJ’s High Technology Criminal Investigation unit explained, adding that, due to the easiness in escaping justice, the number of re-offenders tends to increase over time.
Maria Carneiro, a service chief at the Forensics Medicine Institute, mentioned the few cases of homicidal women. “Women are not as criminal in violent terms as men and the cases where they kill for pleasure are extremely rare”. When that happens, “those are cases of serious psychopathology and generally not imputable”, she concludes.
source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009
Thanks for this. I was (blissfully) ignorant of this until now.
I don't think the DNA database had a single entry at that time (May 2009).
So DNA capability, CSI manuals, good stuff. But how many requests to INML. My source is 23, yours is 24,000 per year. Is one of these right? My source goes ludicrously small. Yours goes ludicrously large.
Can we work out the truth?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2015, 06:35:59 PM
There was no Portuguese DNA database in 2007. The law creating it came into effect on 12 Feb 2008. It sat empty for years. For entries on criminals, it is restricted to convictions re serious crimes. It currently has around 5,000 such entries.
The lady in my current avatar (Jul 2015) is Prof. Helena Machado, who (thankfully) has written many scientific articles on the development of the Portuguese DNA database, and a couple relating specifically to the McCann and Cipriano cases.
My blog has more, but the bottom line is simple. Do not expect an SY approach to DNA existed in Portugal in 2007, as it did not.
This sheds light on why Andy took so many DNA experts to Coimbra/INML last year.
Thank you for that 8((()*/
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 11:47:08 AM
The closest unused land to the apartment should have been by NPIA investigated IMO.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 10:34:12 AM
Thanks for this. I was (blissfully) ignorant of this until now.
I don't think the DNA database had a single entry at that time (May 2009).
So DNA capability, CSI manuals, good stuff. But how many requests to INML. My source is 23, yours is 24,000 per year. Is one of these right? My source goes ludicrously small. Yours goes ludicrously large.
Can we work out the truth?
Sorry, I missed your post. The PJ Scientific Lab doesn't appear to be the same entity as the INML. Or is it? The 24k per day may refer to all types of forensic requests. I'm not even sure if the PJSL is equipped to do DNA tests...
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 21, 2015, 07:16:45 PM
Sorry, I missed your post. The PJ Scientific Lab doesn't appear to be the same entity as the INML. Or is it? The 24k per day may refer to all types of forensic requests. I'm not even sure if the PJSL is equipped to do DNA tests...
I don't know how many labs there are.
The INML did all the lab forensics in the case. The INML is the 'keeper' of the Portuguese DNA database. The INML did all the DNA tests in the PJ Files, excepting of course the FSS ones.
I believe there is a Chinese wall around DNA results which goes as follows. In Portugal, the authorities are not allowed to cross-reference cases, until someone has been convicted of a crime and given a sentence of 3 years or more.
The Madeleine case has no conviction. Therefore, if someone was still carrying out 'petty' crimes where the sentence is less than 3 years, they could take that person's DNA for the petty crime case, match it to DNA in the Madeleine case, but be prevented by law from using the match.
This is my understanding of what Helena Machado has written in English, so if I have misunderstood, it is my misunderstanding.
This also sheds light on why SY might have been pushing for DNA tests within the Madeleine case.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 09:24:57 PM
The INML did all the lab forensics in the case. The INML is the 'keeper' of the Portuguese DNA database. The INML did all the DNA tests in the PJ Files, excepting of course the FSS ones.
I believe there is a Chinese wall around DNA results which goes as follows. In Portugal, the authorities are not allowed to cross-reference cases, until someone has been convicted of a crime and given a sentence of 3 years or more.
The Madeleine case has no conviction. Therefore, if someone was still carrying out 'petty' crimes where the sentence is less than 3 years, they could take that person's DNA for the petty crime case, match it to DNA in the Madeleine case, but be prevented by law from using the match.
This is my understanding of what Helena Machado has written in English, so if I have misunderstood, it is my misunderstanding.
This also sheds light on why SY might have been pushing for DNA tests within the Madeleine case.
That's more or less my understanding as well, except that I doubt that DNA sweps would be done for your average minor crime (e.g., theft, home burglary) as it costs too much. The suspected offence would have to be serious enough for the GNR or the PSP to call in the PJ, wouldn't it?
And there's the inherent issue that the GNR / PSP don't have the same powers as the PJ, so by the time they've assessed the potential seriousness of the case, passed it on to the PJ, and the PJ forensic team turn up, half of the potential forensics could be gone.
If the attendant GNR officers did not they were being terribly remiss ... unfortunately there is no detailed record of exactly where was searched.
Again this also sounds like a stupid question. Did anyone search the top cupboards in the south bedroom during the hour before GNR arrived at apartment? I suppose a possible answer might be: "No because it would obviously have been a waste of valuable time"?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 22, 2015, 12:21:42 AM
Again this also sounds like a stupid question. Did anyone search the top cupboards in the south bedroom during the hour before GNR arrived at apartment? I suppose a possible answer might be: "No because it would obviously have been a waste of valuable time"?
I haven't seen anything other than relatively vague statements about who searched what when.
I have not seen anything that states the top of the cupboards was searched, whether before the GNR arrived or after.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 22, 2015, 12:33:19 AM
If the attendant GNR officers did not they were being terribly remiss ... unfortunately there is no detailed record of exactly where was searched.
Not as bad as Kate McCann refusing to tell em if she did or not! You know, not answering those awfully "silly" questions, one of which was where did you search!
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2015, 12:41:39 AM
I am interested in the psychology of search, in how the searcher's subconscious applies assumptions to decide which places to search and which not.
The mother looked for a child who may have been hiding. The GNR looked for a child who may have wandered off. The searchers were also looking for a child who had wandered. All were working to areas they thought accessible to the child and with a thought to how much ground she may have been able to cover outside.
I suspect you think there is a possibility that Madeleine's remains may have been concealed in the top cupboards. I think not for a variety of reasons which I shan't pursue due to the lateness of the hour.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 01:36:17 AM
Bed linen was tested for bodily fluids, ie blood or semen! The people who say it was all sent off to a laundry need to back up their assertions Why the PJ didnt test THE bed for dna Is any laymans guess
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 22, 2015, 02:48:25 AM
I am interested in the psychology of search, in how the searcher's subconscious applies assumptions to decide which places to search and which not.
Do you actually mean subconscious?
If I role play a GNR officer turning up at a place where a child has gone missing, even if the parents were saying abduction, and there was no major crime on file for the area, plus the language barrier, I doubt I could make a half decent conscious assessment of what was going on.
PJ got called in fairly promptly, which suggests the GNR decided pretty early on, whoops, we need the detectives.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 09:05:14 AM
I still think it would have been worthwhile to have collected hairs from the rest of the apartment (i.e., not just the passageway to the doors and the children's bedroom).
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 22, 2015, 09:31:47 AM
I still think it would have been worthwhile to have collected hairs from the rest of the apartment (i.e., not just the passageway to the doors and the children's bedroom).
TRACES Relating to Apartment no. 5-A in the tourist resort "The Ocean Club" Praia da Luz-Lagos:
- 32 hairs in envelope no. 1 recovered from the floor at the entrance to the children's bedroom.
- 28 hairs in envelope no. 2 recovered from the floor next to the bed from which the child disappeared.
- 4 hair in envelope no. 3 recovered from the top of the bed from which the child disappeared.
- 15 hairs in envelope no. 4 recovered from the floor next to the bed that was next to the window in the children's bedroom.
- 1 piece of cloth in envelope no. 5 recovered from the bedspread of the bed next to the window in the children's bedroom. Fragment of cloth, mauve/violet in colour with square motifs, circular in form about 10cm in diameter. A small fluorescent spot is observed under a Crime-light.
- 31 hairs in envelope No. 6 recovered from the floor of the lounge.
- 58 hairs in envelope No. 7 recovered from the entrance hall at the front door of the apartment.
mtDNA Number of Comparison with profile Samples Recovered from reference samples
B 3 3 entrance hall B1 1 1 entrance hall ------------------------------------------------------- 13 lounge 15 entrance hall C 53 13 entrance to bedroom Kate Healy (Mother) 4 floor; bed next to window 1 bed of the child 7 floor; next to child's bed ------------------------------------------------------- D 1 1 lounge D1 1 1 entrance to bedroom D1 1 1 floor; bed next to window ------------------------------------------------------- F 3 1 lounge 2 entrance hall ------------------------------------------------------- G 1 1 lounge Matthew Oldfield I 1 1 entrance hall David Payne ------------------------------------------------------- 1 floor; bed next to window J 3 1 entrance hall 1 floor; next to child's bed ------------------------------------------------------- K 14 1 Residencia Liliana 13 vehicle(envlps 1,3,4,5 and 6) ------------------------------------------------------- 1 spot on bedspread L 8 1 entrance to bedroom 2 entrance hall 4 floor; bed next to window ------------------------------------------------------- M 48 13 vehicle (envlps 1,2,3 and 4) 35 Residencia Liliana Robert Murat ------------------------------------------------------- 2 lounge 11 entrance hall N 24 6 entrance to bedroom Gerald Mccann 2 floor; bed next to window 3 floor; next to child's bed ------------------------------------------------------- 0 2 1 lounge 1 entrance hall Russell O'Brien ------------------------------------------------------- Q 2 1 entrance hall 1 lounge ------------------------------------------------------- Profiles different from each other and from those above: 28 17 of which were found in the apartment.
* Bl and Dl have a different sequence from B and D.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 09:50:26 AM
There is no indication in those results that they searched for hairs in the parents' bedroom, the rest of the lounge, the kitchen or the bathroom.
If, by chance, they had found hairs with roots belonging to someone who had no valid reason to be in one of those locations, that might have been significant evidence.
I understand the logic of the initial sweep (and the urgency), but it might have been a good idea to do a more comprehensive one as well.
If an unidentifed person or persons had been in the parents' bedroom, bathroom or even a wardrobe (plus Madeleine's own), it might have expanded the potential scenarios of where she disappeared from, which wasn't necessarily directly from her bed.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 22, 2015, 09:55:27 AM
Why would they be in the kitchen or bathroom? The child was asleep in bed according to her father.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 11:05:51 AM
Why would they be in the kitchen or bathroom? The child was asleep in bed according to her father.
That doesn't mean that she didn't subsequently wake up to go for a pee and there was an encounter near there, or that she woke up and hid from someone, does it?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 12:00:54 PM
If I role play a GNR officer turning up at a place where a child has gone missing, even if the parents were saying abduction, and there was no major crime on file for the area, plus the language barrier, I doubt I could make a half decent conscious assessment of what was going on.
PJ got called in fairly promptly, which suggests the GNR decided pretty early on, whoops, we need the detectives.
People in a personal panic / highly stressed situation may react differently to those who have a greater personal distance.
There was no missing child protocol at the time for first respondents. The GNR were used to dealing with burglaries, fires, car crashes, public disorder incidents in rural areas... but not missing children.
Neither, contrary to mythdom, did they understand English.
Personally, I find that they had probably reacted as well as could be expected in the circumstances. On the other hand, the process must have seemed incredibly slow to those with a personal connection and who would have been highly stressed.
Perception of reality would seem to be relative to perspective.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 22, 2015, 12:29:58 PM
That doesn't mean that she didn't subsequently wake up to go for a pee and there was an encounter near there, or that she woke up and hid from someone, does it?
Like the twins did 8)-)))
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 02:35:12 PM
Didn't wake up. What a remarkable set of circumstances for this abductor to raise noisy shutters open a window to whooshing gale force cold winds coming into that room and Madeleine never made a sound. She was very loud according to her family and Pamela Fenn on TUE.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2015, 04:25:35 PM
Didn't wake up. What a remarkable set of circumstances for this abductor to raise noisy shutters open a window to whooshing gale force cold winds coming into that room and Madeleine never made a sound. She was very loud according to her family and Pamela Fenn on TUE.
What? ... When? and Who? are three words which immediately spring to mind whenever Mrs Fenn's name is mentioned in relation to Madeleine McCann's case.
what exactly was it she heard?
when exactly did she hear it?
who was it she heard?
Probably a good example of a witness who should have been interviewed shortly after Madeleine's disappearance but who was not ... months after the event isn't really good enough.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 04:41:33 PM
What? ... When? and Who? are three words which immediately spring to mind whenever Mrs Fenn's name is mentioned in relation to Madeleine McCann's case.
what exactly was it she heard?
when exactly did she hear it?
who was it she heard?
Probably a good example of a witness who should have been interviewed shortly after Madeleine's disappearance but who was not ... months after the event isn't really good enough.
The what and when are very clear in her statement. The who cannot be answered any more than was explained in her statement.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 08:26:24 PM
What? ... When? and Who? are three words which immediately spring to mind whenever Mrs Fenn's name is mentioned in relation to Madeleine McCann's case.
what exactly was it she heard?
when exactly did she hear it?
who was it she heard?
Probably a good example of a witness who should have been interviewed shortly after Madeleine's disappearance but who was not ... months after the event isn't really good enough.
Agreed. And there are aready umpteen discussions on this topic on here.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 08:47:06 PM
A true investigator does not know what he or she is looking for. The idea is to search every space IMO.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 12:57:28 AM
IMO there were half a dozen places in there where the great detective's assistant Mr Fong could have hidden, and (going by the statements) none of the searchers, nor the GNR later, looked in any of them.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 01:20:58 AM
Another place we never heard of anyone searching is the lift engine room. See in this video (at 25 seconds) http://youtu.be/Oww-pkOnSAA?t=25s Do you see where it is?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 01:37:21 AM
deleted as already replied to.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 07:44:04 AM
IMO there were half a dozen places in there where the great detective's assistant Mr Fong could have hidden, and (going by the statements) none of the searchers, nor the GNR later, looked in any of them.
What was hidden? An alive screaming Madeleine or did Eddie detect the lion the witch wardrobe and she was in Narnia. Kids toys look like they were hidden from crime scene photos unless they didn't play with any. A bucket and spade outside it.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 02:40:51 PM
What was hidden? An alive screaming Madeleine or did Eddie detect the lion the witch wardrobe and she was in Narnia. Kids toys look like they were hidden from crime scene photos unless they didn't play with any. A bucket and spade outside it.
A true investigator searches every physical space in the residence. Without applying assumptions or pre-decided theories. It would only have taken a few minutes do a real full search. But assumptions took hold and the search inside was incomplete, both before GNR arrived and after. (And BTW a trivial detail - there were two buckets outside the front door).
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 03:03:50 PM
A true investigator searches every physical space in the residence. Without applying assumptions or pre-decided theories. It would only have taken a few minutes do a real full search. But assumptions took hold and the search inside was incomplete, both before GNR arrived and after. (And BTW a trivial detail - there were two buckets outside the front door).
They did search the apartment. You can't hide her under the bath in the bathroom.
They did search the apartment. You can't hide her under the bath in the bathroom. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2311.jpg
Since you have brought up the bath .... Is the panel removeable? If not then how can plumbing maintainance be done?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Anna on July 23, 2015, 03:26:33 PM
Yes, One can be hidden under a bath, but it would take time.
Dunlop, who lived a few hundred yards from Julie, had been in a brief relationship with her. Drunk and belligerent, he arrived at her three-bedroom terraced home near Stockton-on-Tees in the early hours of the morning demanding sex. When she refused, he murdered her and then stuffed her body behind a panel under the bath.
why would a burglar kill and stuff a three year old inside a bath!!? honestly
This has nothing to do with any assumption of anyone doing anything. It is just an extreme illustration of the difference between 1. Pseudo-search by subconscious assumption (not physically searching all spaces). 2. Real search (physically and pedantically searching all spaces).
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 04:07:27 PM
This has nothing to do with any assumption of anyone doing anything. It is just an extreme illustration of the difference between 1. Pseudo-search by subconscious assumption (not physically searching all spaces). 2. Real search (physically and pedantically searching all spaces).
so IYO the PJ did a "pseudo search" on 3/4 May of apartment 5a because they had unconscious "assumptions"?
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 04:11:03 PM
This has nothing to do with any assumption of anyone doing anything. It is just an extreme illustration of the difference between 1. Pseudo-search by subconscious assumption (not physically searching all spaces). 2. Real search (physically and pedantically searching all spaces).
Had my child gone missing in similar circumstances I would have ripped the place to shreds looking for her ... I have no doubt that was done by those directly involved ... and by those who searched dispassionately and with cooler heads. I have no reason to believe that every inch of the apartment including the adjoining dark garden area was not searched, even the most improbable places. Quite simply Madeleine was not there to be found.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 04:40:15 PM
Yes, One can be hidden under a bath, but it would take time.
Dunlop, who lived a few hundred yards from Julie, had been in a brief relationship with her. Drunk and belligerent, he arrived at her three-bedroom terraced home near Stockton-on-Tees in the early hours of the morning demanding sex. When she refused, he murdered her and then stuffed her body behind a panel under the bath.
Thanks for the article. Behind panels only if you have space at top or bottom of bath and that hasn't. You could check behind the panels if there was room underneath it. Eddie would have found anything there.
Had my child gone missing in similar circumstances I would have ripped the place to shreds looking for her ... I have no doubt that was done by those directly involved ... and by those who searched dispassionately and with cooler heads. I have no reason to believe that every inch of the apartment including the adjoining dark garden area was not searched, even the most improbable places. Quite simply Madeleine was not there to be found.
I don't believe she was there either, Brietta, but what is being discussed(if I fully understood) is whether the searches were thorough enough, to rule out all possible hiding places.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:32:44 PM
I don't believe she was there either, Brietta, but what is being discussed(if I fully understood) is whether the searches were thorough enough, to rule out all possible hiding places.
why would an abductor/killer "hide" a child in the apartment they were abducted/killed in or am I being dim
&%+((£
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: Anna on July 23, 2015, 05:40:38 PM
It does sound rather ridiculous, Mercury, but I believe a discussion was in progress, about the searches carried out.
Doesnt it just.
Re the searches, I do believe they were just normal searches, as any police might do thorough, but not thorough enough vis a vis ripping the whole infrastructure apart....far as I know, police dont dig up back gardens unless they suspect theres dead bodies hidden there, why would the PJ on 4 May think anything like this, or be castigated for not doing so
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 05:57:49 PM
Re the searches, I do believe they were just normal searches, as any police might do thorough, but not thorough enough vis a vis ripping the whole infrastructure apart....far as I know, police dont dig up back gardens unless they suspect theres dead bodies hidden there, why would the PJ on 4 May think anything like this, of be castigated for not doing so
Talking about the search 60 minutes before the GNR arrived. Looking at the statements there are many places not searched. For the understandable reason that assumptions condition search.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 06:02:13 PM
Talking about the search 60 minutes before the GNR arrived. Looking at the statements there are many places not searched. For the understandable reason that assumptions condition search.
ah well if you are gong to say the mccanns and friends' search was incompetent, good luck!
but no one would be expecting them either to be ripping out bath panels
*confused*
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 09:51:14 PM
We know the medicines were in the adult bedroom (either in a wardrobe or in the chest of drawers). But because police didn't do a fingertip search in that room that night, we have no idea which.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 10:26:45 PM
I'm trying to stimulate discussion. The really big assumption that everyone seemed to make that night was that the child was not in the apartment.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
I'm trying to stimulate discussion. The really big assumption that everyone seemed to make that night was that the child was not in the apartment.
Well she wasnt, they looked.And if she was Im sure by now someone will have noticed the stench of a corpse under or over a bathtub! And Why would any burglar come abductor/killer HIDE her
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 10:46:02 PM
Well she wasnt, they looked.And if she was Im sure by now someone will have noticed the stench of a corpse under or over a bathtub! And Why would any burglar come abductor/killer HIDE her
I am not proposing anything like that. It is simply without any assumption or theory to search all possible spaces and many a case has shown the importance of that. For example in the "abductor entered apartment and took child away" theory it is still important to look everywhere even top cupboards just in case perp in a hurry has concealed some inanimate item there.
Title: Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 12:25:46 AM
Ok I see where youre coming from now Well, what can I say , nothing much