Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: mercury on July 10, 2015, 11:53:42 PM
Title: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 10, 2015, 11:53:42 PM
There should be so many for so many to make such a fuss and disregard/question translations they don't like but quote parts they do and/or attach to their arguments.
&%+((£
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 09:38:45 AM
Probably a good thread to return to ... I think translations where times are wrong and the presence of witnesses missed out is really quite a big deal.
Posters who maintain translation errors did not happen are wrong.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 09:45:01 AM
Interestingly we appear to have two versions of an official document floating around which differ in some of their details ... one stamped the other unstamped ... must read on to find out the explanation for that ...
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 10:05:11 AM
I know there are many, many examples on our own forum spread throughout the threads of mistranslation or the nuances of words and phrases ... it would be great if all were under one banner but they are not however the fact is they exist and examples have been given making this thread a nonsense and an indulgence.
An informed word on the situation if not the last belongs to Benice who posted another example no later than this morning ...
I know there are many, many examples on our own forum spread throughout the threads of mistranslation or the nuances of words and phrases ... it would be great if all were under one banner but they are not however the fact is they exist and examples have been given making this thread a nonsense and an indulgence.
An informed word on the situation if not the last belongs to Benice who posted another example no later than this morning ...
The files as we know them are quite simply littered with errors.
Another example of how translating and retranslating can produce errors is mentioned in Kate's book about her diary which was translated from English to Portuguese and then back to English. Quote
''I was really upset'' had become ''I was fed up''
''I never felt that relaxed'' had become 'I'd never felt so relaxed'' Unquote
In that last example by changing just two little words i.e.
''that'' to ''so''
and
''I'' to ''I'd''
....the opposite meaning of what she had really said was wrongly conveyed to the reader.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 10:24:28 AM
Another example of how translating and retranslating can produce errors is mentioned in Kate's book about her diary which was translated from English to Portuguese and then back to English. Quote
''I was really upset'' had become ''I was fed up''
''I never felt that relaxed'' had become 'I'd never felt so relaxed'' Unquote
In that last example by changing just two little words i.e.
''that'' to ''so''
and
''I'' to ''I'd''
....the opposite meaning of what she had really said was wrongly conveyed to the reader.
This is what Kate told us happened. Do we have any evidence that it did ?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Admin on July 11, 2015, 10:54:28 AM
As with all languages, Portuguese does not translate exactly to English and vice versa. A single word in either language can have several meanings depending on the situation in which it is being used. Over the years I have seen countless examples where Portuguese translators have failed to understand the English language and have inadvertently used incorrect phraseology in an attempt to make the two languages fit. Without doubt a minefield.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 11, 2015, 11:06:37 AM
This is what Kate told us happened. Do we have any evidence that it did ?
The mistranslated versions appeared in the News of the Word - without the knowledge or permission of the McCanns. The correct wording would be available in the original diary - if required - to prove the errors. A full account is in Kate's book (pages 408-410 in the paperback version) Chapter 22.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 11:09:08 AM
As with all languages, Portuguese does not translate exactly to English and vice versa. A single word in either language can have several meanings depending on the situation in which it is being used. Over the years I have seen countless examples where Portuguese translators have failed to understand the English language and have inadvertently used incorrect phraseology in an attempt to make the two languages fit. Without doubt a minefield.
Indeed, and it will happen in any language pairs in which words don't have a single meaning and in which syntax can alter the meaning of a sentence.
Then... add to that the chaos of someone with a working knowledge of both languages brought in at short notice on the first day of interviews. Add strong accents, colloquial English, a police officer just trying to get the general gist of events, no verbatim record of questions and answers, and panicked / exhausted parents just trying to get the ball rolling and you have a recipe for confusion.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 11, 2015, 11:12:27 AM
As with all languages, Portuguese does not translate exactly to English and vice versa. A single word in either language can have several meanings depending on the situation in which it is being used. Over the years I have seen countless examples where Portuguese translators have failed to understand the English language and have inadvertently used incorrect phraseology in an attempt to make the two languages fit. Without doubt a minefield.
Indeed. Unfortunately the difficulties caused by the language barrier and also the differences in cultures are grossly under-estimated by many people in this case. IMO they were both massive obstacles.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 11:13:38 AM
The mistranslated versions appeared in the News of the Word - without the knowledge or permission of the McCanns. The correct wording would be available in the original diary - if required - to prove the errors. A full account is in Kate's book (pages 408-410 in the paperback version) Chapter 22.
So at this point we only have Kate's word for any errors. Is that correct ?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 11, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
Indeed, and it will happen in any language pairs in which words don't have a single meaning and in which syntax can alter the meaning of a sentence.
Then... add to that the chaos of someone with a working knowledge of both languages brought in at short notice on the first day of interviews. Add strong accents, colloquial English, a police officer just trying to get the general gist of events, no verbatim record of questions and answers, and panicked / exhausted parents just trying to get the ball rolling and you have a recipe for confusion.
But of course everyone who gave a statement signed those statements verifying that they were a true representation of their words.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 11, 2015, 11:17:29 AM
The archiving report which some claim asks the mccanns to prove their innocence is mistranslated...the correct translation is demonstrate their innocence which has a totally different meaning. this was conformed by Anne Gueddes
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 11, 2015, 11:19:03 AM
So at this point we only have Kate's word for any errors. Is that correct ?
Why would she lie about the errors? If the NOTW's lawyers required proof - then she could produce the evidence in her diary to show them that the version they published in the NOTW had been mistranslated.
The idea that she decided, for some reason, to lie about errors in the NOTW's version of parts of her diary is just plain silly IMO. Why would she do that?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 11:49:56 AM
But of course everyone who gave a statement signed those statements verifying that they were a true representation of their words.
Well, yes. Signing on the dotted line in an unfathomable language could happen to you or me during an initial statement made to the police if one of us had had to make a statement in Thailand or Timbuktoo.
There is no way of objectively verifying what the entire process was.
What seems hugely unlikely to me is that there would have been time for a typed English version for the witnesses to read through, and even if there had, there would be no way of guaranteeing that the PT version was identical to the hasty English one and the PT one was the only one with any judicial value.
The crucial thing to get done on that day was to get the judicial ball rolling to deploy more means to find the missing child...
I can find absolutely no reason why Gerry would have lied about which door he used to enter on his check. I really think it was just one of those lost-in-confusion issues with three people getting muddled over which door was considered to be the front one and which was the back one.
Simple as that.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 11:54:43 AM
Information only:- Some examples of translation errors can be found here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1865.msg58442#msg58442
Thanks for the link Anna ... well worth the read ... even for this gem from Mrs B ...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1865.msg58460#msg58460 ... what an unintelligible mouthful the Pamalam site translation is (very Googly) in comparison with the professionally translated version which can be easily read in Queen's English.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 12:14:06 PM
Information only:- Some examples of translation errors can be found here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1865.msg58442#msg58442
I am only on page 2 of a 10 page thread and one comment I feel appropriate is to remark on the quality of the debate from only two years ago with differences of opinion being discussed with some level of maturity.
Maybe continuation to the last few pages will degenerate into the ad hominem attacks and mantras which seem to characterise what now passes for debate two years down the line.
What a pity we posters have not improved with age and built on the past virtues of this wonderful forum. Not too late though.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 11, 2015, 12:22:58 PM
Thanks for the link Anna ... well worth the read ... even for this gem from Mrs B ...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1865.msg58460#msg58460 ... what an unintelligible mouthful the Pamalam site translation is (very Googly) in comparison with the professionally translated version which can be easily read in Queen's English.
IMO The proof of a professional translation - is that when you are reading it you have no idea that is has been translated.
IMO a good example of this are the parts of the AG's report quoted by Judge Tugenhat from the professionally translated filed submitted to him by Carter Ruck in the Bennet case.
Quote
"With regard to other possible crimes, whilst we cannot dismiss the possibility of a killing, given the high degree of probability, there is no evidence for this in the case records.
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…
None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless
…. Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
… b) Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is no evidence that they committed any crime defined by Article 277.1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure".
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 11, 2015, 12:28:18 PM
Well, yes. Signing on the dotted line in an unfathomable language could happen to you or me during an initial statement made to the police if one of us had had to make a statement in Thailand or Timbuktoo.
There is no way of objectively verifying what the entire process was.
What seems hugely unlikely to me is that there would have been time for a typed English version for the witnesses to read through, and even if there had, there would be no way of guaranteeing that the PT version was identical to the hasty English one and the PT one was the only one with any judicial value.
The crucial thing to get done on that day was to get the judicial ball rolling to deploy more means to find the missing child...
I can find absolutely no reason why Gerry would have lied about which door he used to enter on his check. I really think it was just one of those lost-in-confusion issues with three people getting muddled over which door was considered to be the front one and which was the back one.
Simple as that.
You can't think of any reason why Gerald McCann would have lied about which door he used because your starting point is your conviction that the McCanns are entirely innocent. Thus any evidence which shows he changed his story must be wrong.
If you look at it from an open-minded point of view, with no assumption of innocence, then you are able to consider why he changed his story. It's then possible to find reasons by considering other evidence. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 12:59:25 PM
You can't think of any reason why Gerald McCann would have lied about which door he used because your starting point is your conviction that the McCanns are entirely innocent. Thus any evidence which shows he changed his story must be wrong.
If you look at it from an open-minded point of view, with no assumption of innocence, then you are able to consider why he changed his story. It's then possible to find reasons by considering other evidence. Simple as that.
I have never denied that he possibly changed his story and that all there may have been absolutely accurate (the exhausted and panicked dad, the PJ officer who was on duty that morning, and the lady brought in to help the communication process).
If this had all been planned beforehand, why wouldn't Gerry and Kate have harmonised their differeing versions (Kate having been interviewed later that day, once the initital confusion had potentially been clarified)?
Why would Gerry have stated - in the SAME interview - that he exited via the sliding door and that Matt had entered via it?
If there had been anything untoward going on, why would Matt have been allowed to check at all? Unless he was "innit", wouldn't that have been risky? Wouldn't it have been easier to simply insist on going to check as well and then pretend to panic?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 11, 2015, 01:07:51 PM
You can't think of any reason why Gerald McCann would have lied about which door he used because your starting point is your conviction that the McCanns are entirely innocent. Thus any evidence which shows he changed his story must be wrong.
If you look at it from an open-minded point of view, with no assumption of innocence, then you are able to consider why he changed his story. It's then possible to find reasons by considering other evidence. Simple as that.
the evidence you are using is flawed meaning your conclusions are flawed...simple as that
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 11, 2015, 01:20:39 PM
You can't think of any reason why Gerald McCann would have lied about which door he used because your starting point is your conviction that the McCanns are entirely innocent. Thus any evidence which shows he changed his story must be wrong.
If you look at it from an open-minded point of view, with no assumption of innocence, then you are able to consider why he changed his story. It's then possible to find reasons by considering other evidence. Simple as that.
But why would he lie about which door he used? What did he have to gain?
And why wasn't he then asked the patently obvious question by the interviewing officer i.e Why did you walk past the door which was a mere couple of yards away - and decide to go the long way round?
I suggest that at that stage (i.e. the very first interview) the interviewer was not familiar enough with the layout to notice what a strange thing it would be for Gerry to do - i.e. to walk past the nearest entrance and go the long way round - and so did not realise that that was what he was supposedly claiming - and so did not ask the question.
If he had asked that question, then I think any misunderstandings about doors would have been cleared up at that point.
The fact that no explanation was given as to why Gerry changed his statement suggests to me that that question was never asked at any stage. If it was then surely his reply would be recorded - as the reason why he made such a strange decision would be very pertinent IMO. I for one would love to know what Gerry's explanation could possibly be - as I can't think of a single credible reason.
AIMHO.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
No idea when the amendment to the page was made ... but I don't know if the final translation here is any better than the first containing the translator's addendum.
Important note: The following text inserted in brackets into Gerry McCanns statement [with no way to tell the time], has now been removed to eliminate any confusion. The bracketed text is the translators note, and not part of the original statement. Text before removal: Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03
Text now reads: Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: ferryman on July 11, 2015, 03:40:10 PM
But why would he lie about which door he used? What did he have to gain?
And why wasn't he then asked the patently obvious question by the interviewing officer i.e Why did you walk past the door which was a mere couple of yards away - and decide to go the long way round?
I suggest that at that stage (i.e. the very first interview) the interviewer was not familiar enough with the layout to notice what a strange thing it would be for Gerry to do - i.e. to walk past the nearest entrance and go the long way round - and so did not realise that that was what he was supposedly claiming - and so did not ask the question.
If he had asked that question, then I think any misunderstandings about doors would have been cleared up at that point.
The fact that no explanation was given as to why Gerry changed his statement suggests to me that that question was never asked at any stage. If it was then surely his reply would be recorded - as the reason why he made such a strange decision would be very pertinent IMO. I for one would love to know what Gerry's explanation could possibly be - as I can't think of a single credible reason.
AIMHO.
Confusion over prepositions cannot -- and should never be -- conflated with "lies".
One person's "front" might be another person's "back".
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 11, 2015, 03:53:54 PM
Does anyone understand why some police forces take the trouble to record interviews if the non verbatim summaries are reliable
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: ferryman on July 11, 2015, 04:09:19 PM
I don't believe, for one moment, that the prosecutors said anything as fascist as that the McCanns lost a chance to "prove" their innocence ....
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 04:13:01 PM
Does anyone understand why some police forces take the trouble to record interviews if the non verbatim summaries are reliable
If CCTV is standard practice throughout and all interviews are recorded... I would give much more credence to someone appparently confessing voluntarily to a crime (as opposed to a situation which may have been staged), assuming that it could be corroborated.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Anna on July 11, 2015, 04:23:49 PM
I am only on page 2 of a 10 page thread and one comment I feel appropriate is to remark on the quality of the debate from only two years ago with differences of opinion being discussed with some level of maturity.
Maybe continuation to the last few pages will degenerate into the ad hominem attacks and mantras which seem to characterise what now passes for debate two years down the line.
What a pity we posters have not improved with age and built on the past virtues of this wonderful forum. Not too late though.
I have also noticed a marked difference in the posts, as they are now, in comparison to how they were when I started using this forum.
I so wish that people would try and tolerate, if not understand the opinions of others. A civilised debate where one can agree to disagree, without insults and attacks, would be so very welcome and help us all understand a bit more regarding the topics being discussed. I keep my fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 04:46:40 PM
There are many types of errors possible.
One is the "transcript" of what Martin Grim is alleged to have said regarding putting Eddie in the car...
Whoever translated that (and this preceded the volunteers once the files had been released) who I presume must have been someone connected to the PJ team at the time... got it... erm, wrong.
The volunteers correctly translated, according to the PJ's translated transcription of what MG said, that Eddie was going to be deployed in the boot.
The fact is - MG said exactly the opposite. There is no evidence that Eddie was ever deployed in the boot. Tavares de Almeida / Amaral then appear to have copied this incorrect translation including the omission of a potentially innocent missing "não" from the translated transcript to the infamous interim report... and, hey presto, Eddie magically appears to have reacted to cadaver odour in the boot.
Such errors can occur, but wouldn't leading investigators have checked whether the footage of which dog was put in the car corresponded to the translated transcript? This was, after all, supposed to be the smoking gun.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 11, 2015, 05:13:21 PM
IIRC a whole new myth was born, (i.e.the McCanns control the Press) because the word 'monitor' used by Clarence Mitchell during an Italian interview was translated into Italian and then back into English - when it became 'control'.
It was then claimed that he had said his job was to control the press, when what he'd actually said - was that his job was to monitor the Press.
This myth is still being claimed today by some folk.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: ferryman on July 11, 2015, 05:31:47 PM
IIRC a whole new myth was born, (i.e.the McCanns control the Press) because the word 'monitor' used by Clarence Mitchell during an Italian interview was translated into Italian and then back into English - when it became 'control'.
It was then claimed that he had said his job was to control the press, when what he'd actually said - was that his job was to monitor the Press.
This myth is still being claimed today by some folk.
Monitor = keep an eye on what the press says.
Not control, censor or in any other way influence what they say ...
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 11, 2015, 05:52:41 PM
Not control, censor or in any other way influence what they say ...
Since when in the last few years since the Express libel trial, have the mccanns in this country been asked searching questions in the newspapers or in TV interviews, apart from the Times and photo fit. ??
Oh, I know the answer,
they haven't. &%+((£
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 11, 2015, 06:35:42 PM
IIRC a whole new myth was born, (i.e.the McCanns control the Press) because the word 'monitor' used by Clarence Mitchell during an Italian interview was translated into Italian and then back into English - when it became 'control'.
It was then claimed that he had said his job was to control the press, when what he'd actually said - was that his job was to monitor the Press.
This myth is still being claimed today by some folk.
Where is the ORIGINAL text in which Clarence stated in English that he CONTROLLED the press?
I won't hold my breath...
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 06:46:42 PM
But only one of them is 'opened with the key'. so that's not the reason.
No, but various sleepy people scribbling notes as to which was the back versus the front with an arrow as to which required a key could easily explain the initial confusion.
If there hadn't been one, the officer would have picked Kate up on it, don't you think? And why on earth would Kate have stated the other door without being questioned about it? Why did the first officer not pick up on Gerry supposedly saying that he'd entered via one door, but left by the patio? And through which others went to check?
The matter was later clariified anyway, however, it was diplobabbly worded.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: jassi on July 11, 2015, 06:54:09 PM
Since when in the last few years since the Express libel trial, have the mccanns in this country been asked searching questions in the newspapers or in TV interviews, apart from the Times and photo fit. ??
Oh, I know the answer,
they haven't. &%+((£
The majority (including British and Portuguese police) long ago understood that the McCanns are innocent.
Also the Portuguese Attorney-General at the time.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 11, 2015, 07:01:44 PM
Is it in the PJ files, or are we merely being diverted ?
I've never seen any such comment in the files.
A particular ex-solicitor keeps insisting that Clarence said that he "controlled" the media based on a dodgy translation in which to "monitor" was legitimately translated as "control*", meaning either to monitor or to control, which then got retranslated back into English as to "control".
That's why I'm asking for the original of what he said.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: jassi on July 11, 2015, 07:13:56 PM
In which case I shall just point out that the title thread refers to PJ files
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 07:17:10 PM
IIRC a whole new myth was born, (i.e.the McCanns control the Press) because the word 'monitor' used by Clarence Mitchell during an Italian interview was translated into Italian and then back into English - when it became 'control'.
It was then claimed that he had said his job was to control the press, when what he'd actually said - was that his job was to monitor the Press.
This myth is still being claimed today by some folk.
Was that in the PJ Files?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 11, 2015, 07:44:47 PM
No, but various sleepy people scribbling notes as to which was the back versus the front with an arrow as to which required a key could easily explain the initial confusion.
If there hadn't been one, the officer would have picked Kate up on it, don't you think? And why on earth would Kate have stated the other door without being questioned about it? Why did the first officer not pick up on Gerry supposedly saying that he'd entered via one door, but left by the patio? And through which others went to check?
The matter was later clariified anyway, however, it was diplobabbly worded.
Obviously you aren't going to accept the discrepancy, so I rest my case. The statements are clear.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 08:18:20 PM
Obviously you aren't going to accept the discrepancy, so I rest my case. The statements are clear.
Not to me. If they had been taken verbatim, I'd have found it much clearer whether there were any lost-in-translation/confusion issues or discrepancies or not.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 11, 2015, 08:42:24 PM
Not to me. If they had been taken verbatim, I'd have found it much clearer whether there were any lost-in-translation/confusion issues or discrepancies or not.
I have looked at the PJ Files, TV interviews, press interviews and other sources and have decided that I doubt the story told by the McCanns. Those who don't doubt the McCanns doubt the efficiency of the PJ, the honesty of translators, the intelligence of those who doubt the McCanns and the reliability of police dogs. What a lot of different elements to discredit simply to support the word of two people they don't even know.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: ferryman on July 11, 2015, 08:56:50 PM
I have looked at the PJ Files, TV interviews, press interviews and other sources and have decided that I doubt the story told by the McCanns. Those who don't doubt the McCanns doubt the efficiency of the PJ, the honesty of translators, the intelligence of those who doubt the McCanns and the reliability of police dogs. What a lot of different elements to discredit simply to support the word of two people they don't even know.
Not true on the first point I underline.
I'm not aware of any reason to suspect dishonesty on the part of translators. But scope for (honest) mistakes in translation was huge.
And the only police dogs deployed in the shelved investigation were the GNR dogs.
I've no reason to suppose that their handlers were other than scrupulously honest.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 11, 2015, 09:40:49 PM
I have looked at the PJ Files, TV interviews, press interviews and other sources and have decided that I doubt the story told by the McCanns. Those who don't doubt the McCanns doubt the efficiency of the PJ, the honesty of translators, the intelligence of those who doubt the McCanns and the reliability of police dogs. What a lot of different elements to discredit simply to support the word of two people they don't even know.
I have looked at the files, tv and press interviews and other sources and have come to the conclusion that the McCanns are not criminally involved in maddie's disappearance. I think the PJ investigation was poor...I don't doubt the honesty of the translators but non verbatim twice translated reports are bound to contain errors. I listen to what mark Harrison and grime have to say about the dogs and believe them. Although Grime's statement ha been translated it is verbatim and agrees with what Harrison has to say. I think on the whole mccannn supporters seem to be more intelligent than the sceptics.
There are millions of people who think the evidence supports the earth being 6000 yrs old...I place those who doubt the McCanns in the same class
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Anna on July 11, 2015, 10:12:15 PM
Please try and return to the topic. Thank you
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 11:28:57 PM
Just one example of a document which was translated from English to Portuguese and then back to English, giving the translator problems.
Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP
iv) A observacao de perfis STR mistos (isto e, de mais de um individuo) pode ser prevenida quando estas condicoes se verificam.
TRANSLATOR'S NOTE: This sentence can have several meanings. The literal translation is: "The observation of mixed STR profiles (that is, from more than one person) may be prevented when those conditions occur."
If, however, the writer is intending to convey a linkage with his previous paragraph, it can be translated as:
"Mixed DNA profiles may be predicted [alternative meaning of 'prevenir': to warn; to forewarn] when those conditions [from the previous paragraph, i.e. the possibility of unknown sources] occur.
We would need to see the actual English report written by Lowe to understand his intended meaning.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10.html
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 11:44:17 PM
Just one example of a document which was translated from English to Portuguese and then back to English, giving the translator problems.
Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP
iv) A observacao de perfis STR mistos (isto e, de mais de um individuo) pode ser prevenida quando estas condicoes se verificam.
TRANSLATOR'S NOTE: This sentence can have several meanings. The literal translation is: "The observation of mixed STR profiles (that is, from more than one person) may be prevented when those conditions occur."
If, however, the writer is intending to convey a linkage with his previous paragraph, it can be translated as:
"Mixed DNA profiles may be predicted [alternative meaning of 'prevenir': to warn; to forewarn] when those conditions [from the previous paragraph, i.e. the possibility of unknown sources] occur.
We would need to see the actual English report written by Lowe to understand his intended meaning.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10.html
Reading the translator's note gives a measure of the difficulties faced in dealing with documents translated from English to Portuguese and back to English.
If such an endeavour could be 100% accurate on every occasion I think it could be considered as nothing short of miraculous.
On this occasion perhaps because of the scientific content the translator has taken pains to explain his / her reasoning ... there must have been occasions when this diligence was not performed by translators, allowing misleading nuances and mistakes to creep in.
**snip [/i]Experimental data is available that permits a scientist to assess some questions relating to the transference and persistance of low-level DNA in objects and if they can be put together in [whether they - the questions/assessments - are relevant to] this case. Hence, consideration must be given to the manner in which the detected DNA was transferred to the object and, consequently, the relevance of the discovery of the corresponding DNA profiles to those individuals concerned.[/i]
TRANSLATOR'S NOTE: The entire paragraph above was fraught with difficulty, mainly because of its relevance and importance when we read several of Lowe's analyses later on in the report. The encountered difficulty raised the question in my mind as to whether the English-to-Portuguese translator, Lieve van Loock, simply converted written words - as I am attempting to do in reverse - or if (s)he actually had access to Lowe in order to question his intended meaning.
If the former then (s)he, like me, was faced with the need to decide on an intended meaning before selecting the words to be written in the translation. In other words, I could be attempting to translate a mis-translation of the original English.
Having said that, however, the above difficulty does not detract from the interpretation of what Lowe said in his individual analyses, as we shall see later.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10.html
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 11:50:07 PM
Benice gives another example of the difficulties encountered by the translators ...
Obviously you aren't going to accept the discrepancy, so I rest my case. The statements are clear.
So can you think of a reason why Gerry would decide to lie about which door he used. What did he have to gain by doing that?
If he had decided to lie about it - then what explanation was he planning to give to the PJ - for his weird decision not to enter 5a by the patio door - a mere few seconds walk away from him - but instead to take the much longer route round - to go in by the front door? He would need to give the PJ a reason for doing such a strange thing - so what could that reason possibly be? I can't think of one.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2015, 10:02:28 AM
So can you think of a reason why Gerry would decide to lie about which door he used. What did he have to gain by doing that?
If he had decided to lie about it - then what explanation was he planning to give to the PJ - for his weird decision not to enter 5a by the patio door - a mere few seconds walk away from him - but instead to take the much longer route round - to go in by the front door? He would need to give the PJ a reason for doing such a strange thing - so what could that reason possibly be? I can't think of one.
I can think of a reason, but as I can't prove it I prefer not to share it. This thread concerns translation errors and my point is that in this case there were none.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 10:28:33 AM
I can think of a reason, but as I can't prove it I prefer not to share it. This thread concerns translation errors and my point is that in this case there were none.
You claim there were no errors...it's just your opinion and as we all know...that is worthless. You are just showing how foolish you are when you claim there were no errors
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2015, 10:33:24 AM
I can think of a reason, but as I can't prove it I prefer not to share it. This thread concerns translation errors and my point is that in this case there were none.
Fair enough G-Unit, but unless someone can give credible reasons, then IMO it's clear that a misunderstanding occurred over which door Gerry was talking about - which was not realised at the time and which continued throughout the interview.
Also IMO - if there was any major significance in why Gerry changed his statement - then the reasons he gave for doing that would surely be part of his 2nd witness statement? No reasons are given.
It would be helpful to know when Gerry first had sight of his statement after it had been re-translated and typed back in English. (quite a time-consuming task IMO).
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 12:42:34 AM
Oh dear! This is my fault.
I did not make it clear in my opening post, which was related to an ongoing discussion about translations the other day. My question should have been, where is the evidence that the translations into Portuguese by the translators and subsequent mistranslations into English, causing the Tapas group to read, ratify and sign were erroneous, as that is something some have argued. IE, yes they did sign a translation written and read or read back to them orally in English but there is no guarantee that the two matched.
Thanks for the replies though. Some minor translation errors from the translators of the PJ files into English, but nothng earth shattering or changing anything that important. The expected typos are just that too, the vast majority are obviously that and can be checked against related files.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 07:32:37 AM
I can think of a reason, but as I can't prove it I prefer not to share it. This thread concerns translation errors and my point is that in this case there were none.
It is obvious that there would be mistakes in translation...your refusal to accept shows your unbalanced mindset. You accuse Gerry of lying yet say you are not attacking him. Accusing Gerry of lying in his police interviews is a serious allegation.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 07:50:04 AM
I did not make it clear in my opening post, which was related to an ongoing discussion about translations the other day. My question should have been, where is the evidence that the translations into Portuguese by the translators and subsequent mistranslations into English, causing the Tapas group to read, ratify and sign were erroneous, as that is something some have argued. IE, yes they did sign a translation written and read or read back to them orally in English but there is no guarantee that the two matched.
Thanks for the replies though. Some minor translation errors from the translators of the PJ files into English, but nothng earth shattering or changing anything that important. The expected typos are just that too, the vast majority are obviously that and can be checked against related files.
I have noticed that any errors quoted are minor also. None of them have changed any facts so far. Some people need to try harder if they are to convince us that the files are seriously flawed.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 07:57:59 AM
I have noticed that any errors quoted are minor also. None of them have changed any facts so far. Some people need to try harder if they are to convince us that the files are seriously flawed.
The files are flawed when non verbatim statements are taken with no opportunity to refer to the original. I wouldn't bother trying to convince anyone on here....mindsets are too entrenched. It would be like trying to convince a Jehova's Witness that God does not exist. You think your views are based on evidence....in reality they are based on your interpretation of the evidence.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 08:03:30 AM
It is obvious that there would be mistakes in translation...your refusal to accept shows your unbalanced mindset. You accuse Gerry of lying yet say you are not attacking him. Accusing Gerry of lying in his police interviews is a serious allegation.
Unbalanced? Ha ha ha! Glass houses and stones.
There are no mistakes in the statements given by Gerald McCann about which door he used. I have no need to 'accuse' him of anything, he himself acknowledges that he changed his story;
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 08:09:48 AM
There are no mistakes in the statements given by Gerald McCann about which door he used. I have no need to 'accuse' him of anything, he himself acknowledges that he changed his story;
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
You have no idea what Gerry said...you are relying on a twice translated summary from someone whose first language was not English...
what matters is that SY do NOT consider the McCanns suspects
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 08:12:41 AM
The files are flawed when non verbatim statements are taken with no opportunity to refer to the original. I wouldn't bother trying to convince anyone on here....mindsets are too entrenched. It would be like trying to convince a Jehova's Witness that God does not exist. You think your views are based on evidence....in reality they are based on your interpretation of the evidence. [/quote
You can't convince people if you don't try. Some have, and the results are inconsequential. Your views are based on no evidence at all. 'A child is missing therefore she was abducted', is a pretty flimsy proposition. when challenged for evidence your only reply is 'that's what SY are investigating'. As if anyone knows what they're doing, they haven't said a meaningful word since 2013.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 08:17:58 AM
if there was any significance to Gerry's "changing story" then why wasn't he cross-questioned about it when he was an arguido?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 08:18:45 AM
The files are flawed when non verbatim statements are taken with no opportunity to refer to the original. I wouldn't bother trying to convince anyone on here....mindsets are too entrenched. It would be like trying to convince a Jehova's Witness that God does not exist. You think your views are based on evidence....in reality they are based on your interpretation of the evidence. [/quote
You can't convince people if you don't try. Some have, and the results are inconsequential. Your views are based on no evidence at all. 'A child is missing therefore she was abducted', is a pretty flimsy proposition. when challenged for evidence your only reply is 'that's what SY are investigating'. As if anyone knows what they're doing, they haven't said a meaningful word since 2013.
My opinions are based on exactly the same evidence that you have used to reach your decision. You want to pretend that my beliefs have no basis..you could not be more wrong
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 08:43:34 AM
My opinions are based on exactly the same evidence that you have used to reach your decision. You want to pretend that my beliefs have no basis..you could not be more wrong
Your opinions as you call them, are based on total defense of the mccanns, even when it has been made clear they changed their story.
As to why you do this, well that is blatantly obvious.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 09:16:50 AM
My opinions are based on exactly the same evidence that you have used to reach your decision. You want to pretend that my beliefs have no basis..you could not be more wrong
It would be helpful if you were able to support your 'beliefs' by reference to evidence. Instead you resort to abuse. Please don't comment on my posts unless you can provide links to support what you say. Otherwise it's just the same old mantra based on nothing and i won't be bothering to answer.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 09:21:23 AM
It would be helpful if you were able to support your 'beliefs' by reference to evidence. Instead you resort to abuse. Please don't comment on my posts unless you can provide links to support what you say. Otherwise it's just the same old mantra based on nothing and i won't be bothering to answer.
evidence of what
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
It would be helpful if you were able to support your 'beliefs' by reference to evidence. Instead you resort to abuse. Please don't comment on my posts unless you can provide links to support what you say. Otherwise it's just the same old mantra based on nothing and i won't be bothering to answer.
You have claimed that there were no translation errors in the entire PJ Files. Back up your statement with links please.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 09:37:09 AM
It would be helpful if you were able to support your 'beliefs' by reference to evidence. Instead you resort to abuse. Please don't comment on my posts unless you can provide links to support what you say. Otherwise it's just the same old mantra based on nothing and i won't be bothering to answer.
you haven't answered the post...what evidence do you expect...do you expect me to supply evidence of innocence
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 10:14:38 AM
The statements have changed, whether you would like to admit it or not.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 10:31:18 AM
I have not. People have given examples but they are minor and don't change anything significant is what I said.
Post 1731 - you state there are no translation errors. Now perhaps you can address the question of why, if it was as significant as you seem to think it is, Gerry was not cross-questioned about the key issue when he was made arguido.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 13, 2015, 10:56:45 AM
I have not. People have given examples but they are minor and don't change anything significant is what I said.
I'm really surprised G-Unit that you have virtually decided to ignore the difficulties explained by the interpreters themselves.
In this extract from the interpreter's note he/she actually mentions 'mistranslations' - so even the translaters themselves are aware that they can occur. He/she also confirms that it is the translater who at times needs to decide what the intended meaning of the actual author of the statement was - but who is to say those assumptions are correct? Quote If the former then (s)he, like me, was faced with the need to decide on an intended meaning before selecting the words to be written in the translation. In other words, I could be attempting to translate a mis-translation of the original English. End quote
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 11:35:53 AM
I'm really surprised G-Unit that you have virtually decided to ignore the difficulties explained by the interpreters themselves.
In this extract from the interpreter's note he/she actually mentions 'mistranslations' - so even the translaters themselves are aware that they can occur. He/she also confirms that it is the translater who at times needs to decide what the intended meaning of the actual author of the statement was - but who is to say those assumptions are correct? Quote If the former then (s)he, like me, was faced with the need to decide on an intended meaning before selecting the words to be written in the translation. In other words, I could be attempting to translate a mis-translation of the original English. End quote
It's natural that translators will have difficulties deciding on the exact meaning. In the case of these statements there would be no difficulties with facts in my opinion. ShininginLuz has confirmed that mentioning a key being used to open a door makes it clear which door is being referred to - the one with a key and a lock. There may be difficulties with statements of opinion, but the meaning would be read back to the witness giving them an opportunity to make corrections. Another example is saying whether curtains were open or closed; unlikely for a mistake to be made in that case; aberto = open fechadas= closed
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 13, 2015, 12:24:38 PM
The McCanns are possibly the most unlucky people on the face of the planet if you consider how many elements in this case conspired to make then look guilty.
The McCanns are possibly the most unlucky people on the face of the planet if you consider how many elements in this case conspired to make then look guilty.
The McCanns are possibly the most unlucky people on the face of the planet if you consider how many elements in this case conspired to make then look guilty.
The McCanns are possibly the most unlucky people on the face of the planet if you consider how many elements in this case conspired to make then look guilty.
Reminds me of something said in one of the Carry on films; 'Infamy! Infamy! they've all got it in for me'
No sign of a list of translation errors yet. [/quote
none of us know exactly what Gerry said so we have nothing to compare....what any sensible person knows is that a non verbatim report by a non native English speaker ...translated twice is not going to be 100% correct as you have claimed...
can you provide any evidence that these statements are 100% correct...you cannot
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 01:25:06 PM
So if the police were satisfied with the explanation why is it still brought up ad nauseam by "sceptics"?
we have no way of knowing if Gerry gave a much fuller explanation of his previous statement which the PJ found satisfactory and the translator merely recorded the conclusion
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 13, 2015, 03:24:33 PM
So if the police were satisfied with the explanation why is it still brought up ad nauseam by "sceptics"?
Not sure what the police being satisfied has to do with it. Gerry gave an explanation for the error. How do you think they should have reacted if they had no evidence to counter his explanation ?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 03:45:15 PM
During his arguido statement Gerry was in the station for 6 hours...are we to believe that the online statement is an accurate account of all that was said...rubbish
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 04:09:33 PM
Not sure what the police being satisfied has to do with it. Gerry gave an explanation for the error. How do you think they should have reacted if they had no evidence to counter his explanation ?
If this was a significant discrepancy I would have expected it to have been referenced in the arguido interview and archiving report. The fact is it wasn't significant, despite sceptics best efforts to treat it as such.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 04:55:31 PM
How would one expect the police to treat a significant discrepancy in a witness statement, once the witness had become a suspect? I would expect them to closely question the suspect about that discrepancy, to query why the original statement had been changed and to put pressure on the suspect to come clean, what would you expect the police to do Faithlilly? Not mention it at all? Be satisfied with the explanation given as a witness?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 05:06:04 PM
Not sure what the police being satisfied has to do with it. Gerry gave an explanation for the error. How do you think they should have reacted if they had no evidence to counter his explanation ?
We know how they reacted. They noted it along with other discrepancies in the statements. It was these discrepancies that, added together, led the police to suspect the parents.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 05:07:31 PM
We know how they reacted. They noted it along with other discrepancies in the statements. It was these discrepancies that, added together, led the police to suspect the parents.
and we all know that amaral got it spectacularly wrong...they are not suspects now
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 05:27:19 PM
We know how they reacted. They noted it along with other discrepancies in the statements. It was these discrepancies that, added together, led the police to suspect the parents.
Why did the police not closely question the McCanns about all these supposed discrepancies when they were interviewed as arguidos then? Where is the reference to all these hugely significant discrepancies in the Final Report?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 13, 2015, 06:23:53 PM
We know how they reacted. They noted it along with other discrepancies in the statements. It was these discrepancies that, added together, led the police to suspect the parents.
If you read through the witness statements there are loads of discrepancies by loads of witnesses - especially when it comes to times and distances.
It would appear however that while those discrepancies are regarded as 'normal' (which they are) - any discrepancies in the group's statements are regarded as 'suspicious'.
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 07:10:51 PM
Why did the police not closely question the McCanns about all these supposed discrepancies when they were interviewed as arguidos then? Where is the reference to all these hugely significant discrepancies in the Final Report?
It was because of the discrepancies that the reconsitution was needed;
The aforementioned persons were interviewed carefully and in great detail, on various occasions (see index), with the intention to collect all the relevant elements that could help the investigation to uncover the truth regarding the facts.
The analysis of the grouping of these inquiries emphasized the existence of important details which were not entirely understood and integrated, which needed to be, from our viewpoint, tested and compared together [concatenated] in the actual location.
As such, a concrete understanding of the lack of synergy of some aspects of elevated relevance should be attempted through a processed diligence via the reconstitution of the facts, which, due to a lack of collaboration of several relevant witnesses, was not able to be accomplished, in spite of all the force brought by the authorities. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 13, 2015, 07:12:46 PM
It was because of the discrepancies that the reconsitution was needed;
The aforementioned persons were interviewed carefully and in great detail, on various occasions (see index), with the intention to collect all the relevant elements that could help the investigation to uncover the truth regarding the facts.
The analysis of the grouping of these inquiries emphasized the existence of important details which were not entirely understood and integrated, which needed to be, from our viewpoint, tested and compared together [concatenated] in the actual location.
As such, a concrete understanding of the lack of synergy of some aspects of elevated relevance should be attempted through a processed diligence via the reconstitution of the facts, which, due to a lack of collaboration of several relevant witnesses, was not able to be accomplished, in spite of all the force brought by the authorities. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
it seems a proper police force did not think a recon was necessary
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 07:24:05 PM
It was because of the discrepancies that the reconsitution was needed;
The aforementioned persons were interviewed carefully and in great detail, on various occasions (see index), with the intention to collect all the relevant elements that could help the investigation to uncover the truth regarding the facts.
The analysis of the grouping of these inquiries emphasized the existence of important details which were not entirely understood and integrated, which needed to be, from our viewpoint, tested and compared together [concatenated] in the actual location.
As such, a concrete understanding of the lack of synergy of some aspects of elevated relevance should be attempted through a processed diligence via the reconstitution of the facts, which, due to a lack of collaboration of several relevant witnesses, was not able to be accomplished, in spite of all the force brought by the authorities. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
So, because a reconstitution was not carried out the PJ were unable to cross-question Gerry about the "major" key discrepancy when he was an arguido? Don't be daft.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 07:34:30 PM
So, because a reconstitution was not carried out the PJ were unable to cross-question Gerry about the "major" key discrepancy when he was an arguido? Don't be daft.
This is my last answer to you because I don't insult people and I'm not daft enough to keep speaking to people who insult me. The PJ wouldn't have 'cross examined' Gerald Mccann about the discrepancies in his statement during a reconstitution, obviously. The discrepancies in his and other members of the group needed to be resolved. That was the purpose of the reconstitution - to discover whether their stories 'worked' on the ground.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 08:49:04 PM
This is my last answer to you because I don't insult people and I'm not daft enough to keep speaking to people who insult me. The PJ wouldn't have 'cross examined' Gerald Mccann about the discrepancies in his statement during a reconstitution, obviously. The discrepancies in his and other members of the group needed to be resolved. That was the purpose of the reconstitution - to discover whether their stories 'worked' on the ground.
a reconstitution would not have resolved the issue of why in one statement a key is mentioned and in another the mention of the key is corrected, but it may have been resolved under careful questioning of the suspect in his arguido interview, surely it doesn't take a genius to see this is true?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 13, 2015, 08:57:28 PM
Maybe they've done a computer simulation and know exactly whats what .
They will know where the opportunities lie. Shame nothing fits so you ask yourself why? Who has lied? Tannerman was the one but the window was closed at the time of that sighting. Smithman connects to the open window but not the door? The moving door smart ass will be caught. Two witnesses find the door in the same position allegedly after it has moved twice.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2015, 01:53:14 PM
I think Davel has hit on a definitive cite regarding the problems which have arisen due to mistranslation of some witness statements. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg256351#msg256351
It stands to reason that given the circumstances of the event that although people were doing their best the hurried translations were never going to be perfect. What a shame so many misconceptions have been allowed to arise at the time and to stand unnecessarily for over eight years.
Hopefully the PJ will manage to get a definitive solution to the problem.
Quote ... Interesting snippet from a telegraph article for those who want to pretend there are NO inaccuracies in the translations...looks like the Portuguese police think otherwise
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation.
"In the early days of the investigation there were dozens of statements being given at what was a very confusing time," a police source said.
"Obviously the police acted in good faith in their selection of translators but given all that has been said about the various contradictions in the versions of events, detectives are now re-examining the possibility that there may have been some problems," he said. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 02:08:20 PM
some posters should now admit they were wrong to rely so heavily on the twice translated non verbatim statements
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2015, 02:17:22 PM
some posters should now admit they were wrong to rely so heavily on the twice translated non verbatim statements
As that article was written in November 2007 there was ample time for the translations to be checked and corrected before they were released. It's encouraging news.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: slartibartfast on July 19, 2015, 04:52:38 PM
I think Davel has hit on a definitive cite regarding the problems which have arisen due to mistranslation of some witness statements. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg256351#msg256351
It stands to reason that given the circumstances of the event that although people were doing their best the hurried translations were never going to be perfect. What a shame so many misconceptions have been allowed to arise at the time and to stand unnecessarily for over eight years.
Hopefully the PJ will manage to get a definitive solution to the problem.
Quote ... Interesting snippet from a telegraph article for those who want to pretend there are NO inaccuracies in the translations...looks like the Portuguese police think otherwise
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation.
"In the early days of the investigation there were dozens of statements being given at what was a very confusing time," a police source said.
"Obviously the police acted in good faith in their selection of translators but given all that has been said about the various contradictions in the versions of events, detectives are now re-examining the possibility that there may have been some problems," he said. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html
It may work both ways.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 05:10:53 PM
As that article was written in November 2007 there was ample time for the translations to be checked and corrected before they were released. It's encouraging news.
the statements released are the originals signed by Drs McCann in May 2007......You have based your conclusions on statements that the PJ have themselves questioned the accuracy of...
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 05:12:10 PM
with the McCanns being declared not suspects it is obvious the way it has worked
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2015, 06:48:22 PM
A further anomaly regarding amendments or notations to the files is that (for me at least) there is no indication who the author of these addenda is or when they were added.
CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5) Pages 36 to 38 Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon (former holiday maker in Apartment 5A) 2008.04.24
NOTE: There is no word "tenhos". It should either be "tenho" [I have] or "temos" [we have]. Not being certain, I omitted the personal pronoun in my translation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2015, 06:54:08 PM
There is a vast difference in a bleed which lasts for forty five minutes and one which lasts between four or five minutes ... but at some stage in the proceedings a confusion has arisen.
**snip While we were in Portugal there were no incidents worthy of record, beyond this man that I have described, however there was one occasion when I cut myself shaving in the bathroom of the apartment. I would say that the cut bled for about 4 5 minutes and that it took some time until the cut stopped bleeding, during which period I walked around the apartment with paper tissues trying to stop the blood. Aside from this, to the best of my knowledge no one else cut themselves nor did anyone die in the apartment.
[THOUGHT: Could Mr Gordon have been misheard, or might there have been a typing error in one or other transcription? If misheard: Did he say 'FORTY-five minutes' or 'FOUR TO five minutes'? If a typing error: should the '45 minutes' perhaps be '4 to 5 minutes' or '4-5 minutes'?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2015, 07:07:13 PM
A further anomaly regarding amendments or notations to the files is that (for me at least) there is no indication who the author of these addenda is or when they were added.
CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5) Pages 36 to 38 Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon (former holiday maker in Apartment 5A) 2008.04.24
NOTE: There is no word "tenhos". It should either be "tenho" [I have] or "temos" [we have]. Not being certain, I omitted the personal pronoun in my translation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
TRANSLATION BY ALBYM/INES
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2015, 07:08:12 PM
The translator in this instance has properly made a note of changes or clarification to the text and one can see the reasoning behind it.
It remains a value judgement if it is neither clarified by the interviewee or can be listened to in audio or video; it remains fraught with the opportunity for error when as in this case the source is in English which would have been recorded - is translated to Portuguese - and is subsequently translated back to English.
**snip We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise.
[NOTE: The next line is: "Descreverias como tendo um cinto no interior como mecanismo para abrir e fechar." Direct translation: You [singular] would describe [something???] as having a belt inside as a mechanism to open and close. I think that the single word "Descreverias" should be two words "Descreveria as" meaning "I would describe them", giving the translation as:]
I would describe them [the blinds] as having a belt inside as a mechanism to open and close [them].
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
Actually I did notice the name of the translator at the top of the page ... it was the addenda in blue which caught my attention ... they are exceedingly rare throughout the files.
Which leads one to speculate who might have supplemented the translations with them. In this case it is helpful we know the changes proposed in the translation ... one wonders how often questionable references have been adjusted to suit with no such reference point being applied.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 19, 2015, 07:17:26 PM
with the McCanns being declared not suspects it is obvious the way it has worked
Very clever.
and SY haven't even said they investigated and/or interviewed them or their associates.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2015, 07:29:53 PM
Quite clearly the person who added the notes to this particular statement has highlighted that where an ambiguity has occurred it must be checked out properly.
Bearing in mind the noted importance in the requirement for clarification of the statement of a person whose only locus in Madeleine McCann's case is prior occupancy of the apartment from which she disappeared ... the question is raised about the value of other statements which did not benefit from such rigour.
This is why the Drs McCann had their copy of the DVDs professionally translated ... and is something worth bearing in mind when considering the cite provided by Davel which stated that the PJ themselves thought it worthwhile to go back to the drawing board by checking out original statements and their translation.
**snip The children would sleep in the bedroom facing the car park - the window had a Persian blind, Sal and I would sleep in the bedroom with the door to the patio. Whoever entered from the patio, our bedroom would be on the [to their] left. [NOTE: He is saying that the master bedroom had French windows that gave access to/from the veranda; he is not saying that the sliding patio door in the lounge was in his bedroom.]
Generally we took breakfast at the Millennium restaurant, lunch in apartment and dinner at Millennium, dining only on two occasions in the Tapas Bar - on the second day and the sixth day. [NOTE: Given the day-of-week naming in Portugal this last phrase is potentially ambiguous and the original Portuguese (or English) needs to be checked.]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 12:41:47 AM
There is a vast difference in a bleed which lasts for forty five minutes and one which lasts between four or five minutes ... but at some stage in the proceedings a confusion has arisen.
**snip While we were in Portugal there were no incidents worthy of record, beyond this man that I have described, however there was one occasion when I cut myself shaving in the bathroom of the apartment. I would say that the cut bled for about 4 5 minutes and that it took some time until the cut stopped bleeding, during which period I walked around the apartment with paper tissues trying to stop the blood. Aside from this, to the best of my knowledge no one else cut themselves nor did anyone die in the apartment.
[THOUGHT: Could Mr Gordon have been misheard, or might there have been a typing error in one or other transcription? If misheard: Did he say 'FORTY-five minutes' or 'FOUR TO five minutes'? If a typing error: should the '45 minutes' perhaps be '4 to 5 minutes' or '4-5 minutes'?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Bleeding for 45 minutes? Was he using a machete @)(++(* Of course it was 4-5 minutes.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 12:45:49 AM
Quite clearly the person who added the notes to this particular statement has highlighted that where an ambiguity has occurred it must be checked out properly.
Bearing in mind the noted importance in the requirement for clarification of the statement of a person whose only locus in Madeleine McCann's case is prior occupancy of the apartment from which she disappeared ... the question is raised about the value of other statements which did not benefit from such rigour.
This is why the Drs McCann had their copy of the DVDs professionally translated ... and is something worth bearing in mind when considering the cite provided by Davel which stated that the PJ themselves thought it worthwhile to go back to the drawing board by checking out original statements and their translation.
**snip The children would sleep in the bedroom facing the car park - the window had a Persian blind, Sal and I would sleep in the bedroom with the door to the patio. Whoever entered from the patio, our bedroom would be on the [to their] left. [NOTE: He is saying that the master bedroom had French windows that gave access to/from the veranda; he is not saying that the sliding patio door in the lounge was in his bedroom.]
Generally we took breakfast at the Millennium restaurant, lunch in apartment and dinner at Millennium, dining only on two occasions in the Tapas Bar - on the second day and the sixth day. [NOTE: Given the day-of-week naming in Portugal this last phrase is potentially ambiguous and the original Portuguese (or English) needs to be checked.]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
What is the point of this? If the kids were in the bedroom facing the car park then the parents had to be in the other one facing the patio.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 12:51:36 AM
Bleeding for 45 minutes? Was he using a machete @)(++(* Of course it was 4-5 minutes.
No shaving cut bleeds for 45 minutes, the question is why some might think it may have done! The reason sometimes given is unsubstantiated in every way.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 12:55:16 AM
Bleeding for 45 minutes? Was he using a machete @)(++(* Of course it was 4-5 minutes.
Given the ambiguity recorded by the person who wrote the NOTES in blue on the statement ... the best arbitrator of the actual time span of the bleed would have been Mr Gordon himself ... because the translated statement wasn't clear.
That the question arose at all is indicative that translations were being made which left some things open to doubt or misunderstanding ... thanks to the person who highlighted the occurrence we know in this case that such anomalies did arise because s/he questioned rather than just going ahead and "rectifying" it without comment.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 12:57:26 AM
What is the point of this? If the kids were in the bedroom facing the car park then the parents had to be in the other one facing the patio.
It is not my point ... rather it is the point made by the person struggling to make sense of what was obviously a rather poor translation.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 01:02:01 AM
It is about time people thanked the translators of the mccannpjfiles otherwise they would have NOTHING much to talk about, or cherry pick, or skew, and perhaps use their nous most of the tme instead of criticising, but of course, they can have a stab if they want to translate 40000 pages themselves for no thanks and criticism of course
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 01:07:37 AM
It is about time people thanked the translators of the mccannpjfiles otherwise they would have NOTHING much to talk about, or cherry pick, or skew, and perhaps use their nous most of the tme instead of criticising, but of course, they can have a stab if they want to translate 40000 pages themselves for no thanks and criticism of course
You asked politely for a list of all the translation errors in the PJ files ... perhaps you should be careful what you wish for since the result of giving you only a fraction of what you requested doesn't seem to be suiting you at all.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 01:14:45 AM
You asked politely for a list of all the translation errors in the PJ files ... perhaps you should be careful what you wish for since the result of giving you only a fraction of what you requested doesn't seem to be suiting you at all.
You could perhaps start to contemplate about the possibility of you ceasing pontificating to others and making assumptions as well. Nothing I have seen has been an earth shattering revelation in any way. EG your last example of Paul Gordon bleeding for 4-5 minutes or 45 doesn't really matter in any way shape or form does it? For the purposes of finding a missing child. It has zilch with suiting or not suiting me,
But to your credit you do give examples even if they mean nothing.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 01:21:06 AM
What about files from the ENGLISH police...why are they never criticised as being mistaken, or as some say here deliberately tampered with! over calling a witness mistaken or lying?
Direct memos from UK Leicester police with no requirement or evidence of translation have stated thngs which are vastly different to what a witness has said elsewhere. (ALSO in an English non translated version)!
My main point being, just in case anyne missed it, that the Portuguese and others are victims of a scurrilous campaign and systematically demonised on every level they possibly can be in every place where even if one sneezes whlst having a suspicious thought about the abduction narrative, are legit targets of abysmal attacks FACT
This includes a whole bunch of innocent people totally uninvolved in the sorry saga including the type who just happen to be strolling on a beach with their family but the grandpa "looking suspicious" (before he gets his face name and address splashed all over the SUN) - THAT is what I call disgusting Ms Brietta
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: carlymichelle on July 20, 2015, 01:25:21 AM
What about files from the ENGLISH police...why are they never criticised as being mistaken, or as some say here deliberately tampered with! over calling a witness mistaken or lying?
Direct memos from UK Leicester police with no requirement or evidence of translation have stated thngs which are vastly different to what a witness has said elsewhere. (ALSO in an English non translated version)!
do you think if this had happened in the uk the police would have been the same as the pj?? i think the uk police would have charged the mcanns imo they would have here
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 01:36:28 AM
do you think if this had happened in the uk the police would have been the same as the pj?? i think the uk police would have charged the mcanns imo they would have here
Hard to say. In one breath I would say the British police would have been more thorough and taken no nonsense at all. they would certainly be calling more of the shots than the family and the media. On the other it is a fact that that certain people get away with things that others don't. All depends if the police believed it was a case of neglect plus abduction or neglect plus woke and wondered or neglect plus foul play. No idea.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 08:02:56 AM
You could perhaps start to contemplate about the possibility of you ceasing pontificating to others and making assumptions as well. Nothing I have seen has been an earth shattering revelation in any way. EG your last example of Paul Gordon bleeding for 4-5 minutes or 45 doesn't really matter in any way shape or form does it? For the purposes of finding a missing child. It has zilch with suiting or not suiting me,
But to your credit you do give examples even if they mean nothing.
I expect that it is a typo, with a missing hyphen: por cerca de uns 45 minutos, instead of 4-5. If it is, it could have been in the original typed up by LP or whichever UK force interviewed him and PG missed it when reading it through, or it could be a typo in the PT translation.
There are bound to be mistakes or misunderstandings creeping in.
The issue I have is that if PG had been one of the T9, there would have been screams of lying from certain quarters.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 08:12:31 AM
Unless there is a time zone warp running through PdL, how can one make sense of an hour's difference between various statements relating to the same episodes?
Half of the people are accurate and the other half are all lying?
Or could one witness or the officer typing one up have got the wrong time, and the time got copied from one statement to another for some reason? There were a lot of interviews to conduct very quickly, so shortcuts wouldn't be outside of the realms of possibiity.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 08:47:12 AM
I expect that it is a typo, with a missing hyphen: por cerca de uns 45 minutos, instead of 4-5. If it is, it could have been in the original typed up by LP or whichever UK force interviewed him and PG missed it when reading it through, or it could be a typo in the PT translation.
There are bound to be mistakes or misunderstandings creeping in.
The issue I have is that if PG had been one of the T9, there would have been screams of lying from certain quarters.
As it is such an insignificant matter why would anyone care? He doesn't seem to have crouched behind the couch bleeding according to the forensics, in fact he says the couch was against the wall. Not remotely relevant.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 09:11:27 AM
As it is such an insignificant matter why would anyone care? He doesn't seem to have crouched behind the couch bleeding according to the forensics, in fact he says the couch was against the wall. Not remotely relevant.
I agree, but that's not my point. Gerry's initial statement about entering via the front door with a key apparently couldn't possibly be a similar type of misunderstanding - according to some - even though there are half-a-dozen or so reasons to indicate that there is a strong likelihood that it was just that.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2015, 09:17:47 AM
As it is such an insignificant matter why would anyone care? He doesn't seem to have crouched behind the couch bleeding according to the forensics, in fact he says the couch was against the wall. Not remotely relevant.
Slightly off topic but I wonder what he did with the bloodied tissues which I presume he used. If he threw them in the bin, then even if the bin had been emptied and washed Eddie and Keela had the ability to detect the residual scent. If he wasn't asked that question then he should have been IMO.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 10:20:28 AM
I agree, but that's not my point. Gerry's initial statement about entering via the front door with a key apparently couldn't possibly be a similar type of misunderstanding - according to some - even though there are half-a-dozen or so reasons to indicate that there is a strong likelihood that it was just that.
I disagree. Mainly because he corrected it on 10th May, acknowledging that he said it on 4th May.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2015, 10:41:36 AM
This is true. And if it was thought to be of any significance (as opposed to him just correcting a misunderstanding about which door was which) then why are his reasons for changing his statement not recorded in the summary.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 10:53:44 AM
I think Davel has hit on a definitive cite regarding the problems which have arisen due to mistranslation of some witness statements. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg256351#msg256351
It stands to reason that given the circumstances of the event that although people were doing their best the hurried translations were never going to be perfect. What a shame so many misconceptions have been allowed to arise at the time and to stand unnecessarily for over eight years.
Hopefully the PJ will manage to get a definitive solution to the problem.
Quote ... Interesting snippet from a telegraph article for those who want to pretend there are NO inaccuracies in the translations...looks like the Portuguese police think otherwise
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation.
"In the early days of the investigation there were dozens of statements being given at what was a very confusing time," a police source said.
"Obviously the police acted in good faith in their selection of translators but given all that has been said about the various contradictions in the versions of events, detectives are now re-examining the possibility that there may have been some problems," he said. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html
If there was concerns with regard to the accuracy of the translations surely it would have been recorded in the files as the cost of the many man hours needed to check them would have to have been justified.
I'm afraid at this stage in thr game information from an unnamed source just does not cut it and naive is the poster who thinks it does.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 11:04:02 AM
If there was concerns with regard to the accuracy of the translations surely it would have been recorded in the files as the cost of the many man hours needed to check them would have to have been justified.
I'm afraid at this stage in thr game information from an unnamed source just does not cut it and naive is the poster who thinks it does.
how could they possibly be checked...did the pj keep a verbatim account in English....no...the statements are impossible to check and verify...you would be naïve to think otherwise. the unnamed source merely confirms the logical conclusion that the statements cannot be taken as accurate
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
how could they possibly be checked...did the pj keep a verbatim account in English....no...the statements are impossible to check and verify...you would be naïve to think otherwise. the unnamed source merely confirms the logical conclusion that the statements cannot be taken as accurate
If the official case files which were released on the DVD caused the PJ to have concerns about inaccuracies ... what chance the same files released on the internet after being translated and transcribed in a rush by volunteers with various skill levels in transcription.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 11:21:48 AM
If the official case files which were released on the DVD caused the PJ to have concerns about inaccuracies ... what chance the same files released on the internet after being translated and transcribed in a rush by volunteers with various skill levels in transcription.
But there is no proof, bar an unnamed source, that the official files were causing concern.
Isn't it strange that supposed 'leaks' from the PJ are derided when they are seen to be painting the McCanns as anything less than innocent but accepted as gospel when the opposite is true ?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 12:07:56 PM
do you think if this had happened in the uk the police would have been the same as the pj?? i think the uk police would have charged the mcanns imo they would have here
Charged them with what
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 12:14:11 PM
I disagree. Mainly because he corrected it on 10th May, acknowledging that he said it on 4th May.
When would he have had an opportunity to correct it prior to 10 May?
There had been time to get a translation organised by then. If he had read through it on 10 May and found an error "That's not what I said"... what would the PJ officer record? Is it really likely that a misunderstanding would be recorded as anything other than that the issue had been clarified?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 12:42:31 PM
Here's an alternative.
Hypothesis:
There wasn't a misunderstanding or confusion as to what Gerry had actually said that morning concerning which door he'd used to check on the children.
- What would be the point of lying (when the police officer hadn't picked up on why the patio door was left open when Matt checked in the same statement... And Kate had stated that they'd entered via the patio as the next witness to be interviewed, but anyway).
- What logical motive could there have been?
- How would falsely asserting that he'd entered via the front door at a potentially crucial time lend credence to a faked abduction scenario?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 01:13:38 PM
There wasn't a misunderstanding or confusion as to what Gerry had actually said that morning concerning which door he'd used to check on the children.
- What would be the point of lying (when the police officer hadn't picked up on why the patio door was left open when Matt checked in the same statement... And Kate had stated that they'd entered via the patio as the next witness to be interviewed, but anyway).
- What logical motive could there have been?
- How would falsely asserting that he'd entered via the front door at a potentially crucial time lend credence to a faked abduction scenario?
i posted that Gerald Mccann changed his account of which door he and his wife used to check their children on 3rd May. I gave no opinion of why he would make that mistake, it's just one of the inconsistencies which exist in this case. Why do people ask me to then explain the inconsistency? I could speculate, but that's all it would be, just as other's opinions are just speculation.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 01:16:06 PM
There wasn't a misunderstanding or confusion as to what Gerry had actually said that morning concerning which door he'd used to check on the children.
- What would be the point of lying (when the police officer hadn't picked up on why the patio door was left open when Matt checked in the same statement... And Kate had stated that they'd entered via the patio as the next witness to be interviewed, but anyway).
- What logical motive could there have been?
- How would falsely asserting that he'd entered via the front door at a potentially crucial time lend credence to a faked abduction scenario?
It wouldn't but as supporters never tire of telling us the parents were frantic, so probably not in a great state of mind to consider all the angles. However once he had realised that if the man Tannner saw had abducted Madeleine using the window ( as the McCanns wanted the world to believe ) and he had used the front door he couldn't have missed the open window when he made his 9.15 check.
Of course this probably only became apparent when he sat down and thought about it calmly. Much like Kate changing her statement to the curtains being closed then whooshing open as opposed to fully open as she stated in her first statement after no doubt realising that if Tanner had seen the abductor then the children's bedroom curtains would have to have been open at Oldfield's check.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 01:22:55 PM
It wouldn't but as supporters never tire of telling us the parents were frantic, so probably not in a great state of mind to consider all the angles. However once he had realised that if the man Tannner saw had abducted Madeleine using the window ( as the McCanns wanted the world to believe ) and he had used the front door he couldn't have missed the open window when he made his 9.15 check.
Of course this probably only became apparent when he sat down and thought about it calmly. Much like Kate changing her statement to the curtains being closed then whooshing open as opposed to fully open as she stated in her first statement after no doubt realising that if Tanner had seen the abductor then the children's bedroom curtains would have to have been open at Oldfield's check.
Speculative, but it makes sense. I'd forgotten about the open/closed curtains. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 01:35:35 PM
i posted that Gerald Mccann changed his account of which door he and his wife used to check their children on 3rd May. I gave no opinion of why he would make that mistake, it's just one of the inconsistencies which exist in this case. Why do people ask me to then explain the inconsistency? I could speculate, but that's all it would be, just as other's opinions are just speculation.
We do not know he did change his account as we do not have a verbatim record of what he said
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 02:08:41 PM
It wouldn't but as supporters never tire of telling us the parents were frantic, so probably not in a great state of mind to consider all the angles. However once he had realised that if the man Tannner saw had abducted Madeleine using the window ( as the McCanns wanted the world to believe ) and he had used the front door he couldn't have missed the open window when he made his 9.15 check.
Of course this probably only became apparent when he sat down and thought about it calmly. Much like Kate changing her statement to the curtains being closed then whooshing open as opposed to fully open as she stated in her first statement after no doubt realising that if Tanner had seen the abductor then the children's bedroom curtains would have to have been open at Oldfield's check.
He happily missed seeing JT on the street, why would he have any problem with missing an open window too? He could just say he never noticed it, it's no biggie.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 02:46:16 PM
We do not know he did change his account as we do not have a verbatim record of what he said
He signed it. It is clear he used a key and then changed it. Matt's check is the most revealing. An unlocked door, no open window, door half-open again &%+((£.
"MATHEW returned saying only "it is all calm", he having entered by the rear door,given that he did not have the key and it was usual for them to enter in that way."
He happily missed seeing JT on the street, why would he have any problem with missing an open window too? He could just say he never noticed it, it's no biggie.
Don't be silly Alfie. Of course it's a biggie.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2015, 03:09:58 PM
The father of a missing child, according to his first statement, walked within inches of the open window through which he believed his daughter was abducted and didn't notice it was open. That is a big mistake no matter what way you slice it.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 04:26:21 PM
The father of a missing child, according to his first statement, walked within inches of the open window through which he believed his daughter was abducted and didn't notice it was open. That is a big mistake no matter what way you slice it.
And yet he denies seeing his very important alibi when she walks past him - didn't end up putting him behind bars did it?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
The father of a missing child, according to his first statement, walked within inches of the open window through which he believed his daughter was abducted and didn't notice it was open. That is a big mistake no matter what way you slice it.
Then that would indicate the first statement was misunderstood by the translator
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 04:29:09 PM
The father of a missing child, according to his first statement, walked within inches of the open window through which he believed his daughter was abducted and didn't notice it was open. That is a big mistake no matter what way you slice it.
It's not a "big mistake" - if he'd walked past an open window without noticing it was open it would simply have said "this man is not very observant", something we already know from his failure to see Jane Tanner walking by. Either way, it's no biggie.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 04:44:36 PM
It's not a "big mistake" - if he'd walked past an open window without noticing it was open it would simply have said "this man is not very observant", something we already know from his failure to see Jane Tanner walking by. Either way, it's no biggie.
You said the same about the airbrushing from Summer's narrative of the last non-family to see Madeleine alive.
Tell me Alfie what would you consider a biggie ?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 04:48:49 PM
The supposed inconsistencies in the statements has been used to indicate some kind of guilt towards the McCanns. We know that the statements taken by the pj are unreliable and certainly do not implicate them......it's over for the doubters but of course having invested 8 years of their lives attacking the McCanns it's very difficult for them to admit they are wrong
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 04:56:35 PM
The supposed inconsistencies in the statements has been used to indicate some kind of guilt towards the McCanns. We know that the statements taken by the pj are unreliable and certainly do not implicate them......it's over for the doubters but of course having invested 8 years of their lives attacking the McCanns it's very difficult for them to admit they are wrong
You can keep typing that until the end of time.
The few who believe the mccanns story will still do so.
However, the more time elapses, the more will see that with nothing to show for the investigation, the abduction story lacks any substance whatsoever.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 20, 2015, 04:58:23 PM
There wasn't a misunderstanding or confusion as to what Gerry had actually said that morning concerning which door he'd used to check on the children.
- What would be the point of lying (when the police officer hadn't picked up on why the patio door was left open when Matt checked in the same statement... And Kate had stated that they'd entered via the patio as the next witness to be interviewed, but anyway).
- What logical motive could there have been?
- How would falsely asserting that he'd entered via the front door at a potentially crucial time lend credence to a faked abduction scenario?
Asserting he used a key does not lend credence to abduction, it messes it up.
Asserting Kate used the key to get in was a further mess. To use a key she would have to have passed the open shutter. Why he said anything about Kate using a key when he did not go with her is very odd.
The impact was that the first statements of the Tapas 9 appeared to have major problems, which did not advance the abduction theory.
As to why he did it, I can give good 'reason', but that would be speculation, which I understand is not welcomed here.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 05:22:37 PM
Asserting he used a key does not lend credence to abduction, it messes it up.
Asserting Kate used the key to get in was a further mess. To use a key she would have to have passed the open shutter. Why he said anything about Kate using a key when he did not go with her is very odd.
The impact was that the first statements of the Tapas 9 appeared to have major problems, which did not advance the abduction theory.
As to why he did it, I can give good 'reason', but that would be speculation, which I understand is not welcomed here.
he didn't do it.....
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 05:24:50 PM
It's not a "big mistake" - if he'd walked past an open window without noticing it was open it would simply have said "this man is not very observant", something we already know from his failure to see Jane Tanner walking by. Either way, it's no biggie.
Do you think he wasn't going to check on the children but to do something else? How would they know if a window was open if they kept the bedroom door ajar and didn't open it to visually check on them? Their story is full of holes.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 05:31:15 PM
You said the same about the airbrushing from Summer's narrative of the last non-family to see Madeleine alive.
Tell me Alfie what would you consider a biggie ?
Tell you what Faithy, if it was such a biggie then perhaps you can point me to the police questions Gerry was asked about it during his arguido interview. Surely something of this magnitude would have required careful interrogation of the suspect, yes?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 05:45:03 PM
Asserting he used a key does not lend credence to abduction, it messes it up.
Asserting Kate used the key to get in was a further mess. To use a key she would have to have passed the open shutter. Why he said anything about Kate using a key when he did not go with her is very odd.
The impact was that the first statements of the Tapas 9 appeared to have major problems, which did not advance the abduction theory.
As to why he did it, I can give good 'reason', but that would be speculation, which I understand is not welcomed here.
If it was a misunderstanding about which door was used (e.g., confusing "back" and "front"), the officer could easily have assumed that if he'd said (or the "interpreter" had interpreted) that Kate had used the same door, then it must have been the door requiring a key.
Wouldn't a police officer normally attempt to get the gist of the layout of the apartment? If he did, it's not in the statement. If he did, then it may well be part of an informal discussion prior to typing up notes. If he didn't ask... why didn't it occur to him?
There is no evidence of any discussion concerning the layout of that apartment in that statement, and yet it was the first statement to be taken. The officer was probably not clued up, neither would the interpreter have been, and Gerry had only had 2 hours sleep, if that.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 05:56:36 PM
If it was a misunderstanding about which door was used (e.g., confusing "back" and "front"), the officer could easily have assumed that if he'd said (or the "interpreter" had interpreted) that Kate had used the same door, then it must have been the door requiring a key.
Wouldn't a police officer normally attempt to get the gist of the layout of the apartment? If he did, it's not in the statement. If he did, then it may well be part of an informal discussion prior to typing up notes. If he didn't ask... why didn't it occur to him?
There is no evidence of any discussion concerning the layout of that apartment in that statement, and yet it was the first statement to be taken. The officer was probably not clued up, neither would the interpreter have been, and Gerry had only had 2 hours sleep, if that.
Impossible. This is from Gerry's first statement
At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 05:57:48 PM
If it was a misunderstanding about which door was used (e.g., confusing "back" and "front"), the officer could easily have assumed that if he'd said (or the "interpreter" had interpreted) that Kate had used the same door, then it must have been the door requiring a key.
Wouldn't a police officer normally attempt to get the gist of the layout of the apartment? If he did, it's not in the statement. If he did, then it may well be part of an informal discussion prior to typing up notes. If he didn't ask... why didn't it occur to him?
There is no evidence of any discussion concerning the layout of that apartment in that statement, and yet it was the first statement to be taken. The officer was probably not clued up, neither would the interpreter have been, and Gerry had only had 2 hours sleep, if that.
Gerry has quite a strong accent. I would think the interpreter would have found it very difficult to understand him
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 06:02:59 PM
Asserting he used a key does not lend credence to abduction, it messes it up.
Asserting Kate used the key to get in was a further mess. To use a key she would have to have passed the open shutter. Why he said anything about Kate using a key when he did not go with her is very odd.
The impact was that the first statements of the Tapas 9 appeared to have major problems, which did not advance the abduction theory.
As to why he did it, I can give good 'reason', but that would be speculation, which I understand is not welcomed here.
Ahh. If your idea is that Gerry hadn't realised that if Kate would have necessarily seen the open shutter upon walking the long way via the front and the story suddenly had to change between his statement and hers via communication over lunchtime... I'd thought of that, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
I doubt that if there had been a staging of the window that it would not have been taken into account. All Kate had to say was that as she passed by the window on the way to entering the flat from the front that she noticed that he blinds were up. It wouldn't have changed anything. If Gerry had decided to stage raising the blinds, there's still not reason to enter via the front. Even less to state - in the SAME statement - that he'd exited via the patio door which was how Matt went when he checked.
I really don't think that anyone was terribly awake when that statement was taken.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 06:07:24 PM
Gerry has quite a strong accent. I would think the interpreter would have found it very difficult to understand him
Between accents, colloquial expressions and distress, I can well imagine all sorts of comprehension problems. Understanding a language when spoken is quite different to understanding a simple written text.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 06:10:25 PM
At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked.
Exactly. So why on earth didn't the officer ask Gerry WHY he took the long way via the front to only then leave it open via the patio? The question wasn't even asked, but it was in the same interview.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 06:11:33 PM
Try looking up "whoosh" in a pocket language dictionary. ;)
Or "turn-ups", which could sound like turnips. The British might be a bit odd, but why have winter vegetables hanging on the bottom of children's pyjamas?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 06:19:58 PM
Tell you what Faithy, if it was such a biggie then perhaps you can point me to the police questions Gerry was asked about it during his arguido interview. Surely something of this magnitude would have required careful interrogation of the suspect, yes?
Why ? Gerry had already given his explanation on May 10th. What do you think would be gleaned from further questioning ?
It was reported that the McCanns wouldn't be questioned under the letters rogatory because nothing new would be gleaned from further questioning. I'm sure the PJ's reasoning was similar when he came to the 'door' query.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 06:22:21 PM
Try looking up "whoosh" in a pocket language dictionary. ;)
Or "turn-ups", which could sound like turnips. The British might be a bit odd, but why have winter vegetables hanging on the bottom of children's pyjamas?
There are also regional variations.
Better than 'sardine munchers' though. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 06:29:15 PM
Why ? Gerry had already given his explanation on May 10th. What do you think would be gleaned from further questioning ?
Well let's see. Isn't that what the police are supposed to do? Challenge and cross-question inconsistencies such as this humungous one that the "Only Asking Questions" brigade have seen fit to question continually for the last x number of years? Why was Kate McCann asked 48 daft questions, many of which she'd already been asked before? Surely if this issue really was a biggie the police would want to understand why the change of story.
But back in the real world we can see that actually it was no biggie at all and that's why the police accepted it was a mistake and that was the end of it (until the files were released and the "Only Asking Questions" brigade got their gnashers into it!)
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 06:34:43 PM
I thought that we were discussing potential misunderstandings in a police station or in translations.
For the record, I found that rant against the Portuguese and their ambassador to London in whichever tabloid by whatever his name is to be totally disgraceful.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 06:39:16 PM
I thought that we were discussing potential misunderstandings in a police station or in translations.
For the record, I found that rant against the Portuguese and their ambassador to London in whichever tabloid by whatever his name is to be totally disgraceful.
I'm glad you did.
I also remember not long ago when the East Midlands BBC reporter stated that Amaral had used the f-word against the mccanns, which he hadn't of course, and many McCain supporters were clamouring for his blood, merely because they had lept to a conclusion.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 06:40:49 PM
Exactly. So why on earth didn't the officer ask Gerry WHY he took the long way via the front to only then leave it open via the patio? The question wasn't even asked, but it was in the same interview.
Gerry said he entered the apartment using the key so the apartment was locked at 9pm. He unlocked the patio door when he left that side after his check and met Jes. That's why it was unlocked when Matt next entered at 9:30.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 06:51:15 PM
I'm sure the "Only Asking Questions" Brigade could think of a few questions to put to Gerry regarding this inconsistency of vast magnitude, even if the police didn't have the imagination or intelligence to ask them. Go on Faithlilly, I'm sure you can think of a few, you've had years of practice...
You do take this all rather personally don't you Alfie. You would think a businessman like yourself would have more to occupy your mind.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 06:53:28 PM
You do take this all rather personally don't you Alfie. You would think a businessman like yourself would have more to occupy your mind.
@)(++(* When all else fails go for the ad homs. But seriously Faithlilly, I'm sure you could think of at least ONE question you could have asked Gerry about this humungous change in story, really put him on the spot if you'd been a PJ detective....?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2015, 07:00:05 PM
@)(++(* When all else fails go for the ad homs. But seriously Faithlilly, I'm sure you could think of at least ONE question you could have asked Gerry about this humungous change in story, really put him on the spot if you'd been a PJ detective....?
I often wonder if supporter's claims of an incompetent investigation actually helped the McCanns rather than damaged them.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 07:02:34 PM
I also remember not long ago when the East Midlands BBC reporter stated that Amaral had used the f-word against the mccanns, which he hadn't of course, and many McCain supporters were clamouring for his blood, merely because they had kept to a conclusion.
Lucky he wasn't making a statement in Portuguese at a sleepy UK police station, then. ;)
Personally, I made no assumptions about that. I was waiting to find an un-bleeped version to listen for myself, which I never did find. However, I can understand that it was bleeped out due to what it would have sounded like to an average English-speaker: if you hear a strong F, followed by a strong K, pronounced by someone who may have reason to be in a bad mood and you don't have time to double-check with a native speaker, yet have to roll... the safest thing is to bleep it out.
And then, of course, the fact of having decided to take no chances and to bleep it out became a story in itself.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 07:34:51 PM
@)(++(* When all else fails go for the ad homs. But seriously Faithlilly, I'm sure you could think of at least ONE question you could have asked Gerry about this humungous change in story, really put him on the spot if you'd been a PJ detective....?
That's a bit rich,to say the least, coming from you Alf. PS What is the opposite of the "Asking Questions Brigade"? just curious what epithet you have given yourself.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 08:12:12 PM
I often wonder if supporter's claims of an incompetent investigation actually helped the McCanns rather than damaged them.
Every time a supporter finds a new reason to criticise the investigation it reminds people that the McCanns began to discredit the Portuguese authorities right from the start.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 08:21:28 PM
Every time a supporter finds a new reason to criticise the investigation it reminds people that the McCanns began to discredit the Portuguese authorities right from the start.
A little hypocritical too (at best) when it is made out it is some sort of crime to ask questions or criticise certain things.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 08:25:54 PM
Every time a supporter finds a new reason to criticise the investigation it reminds people that the McCanns began to discredit the Portuguese authorities right from the start.
I don't know why you and Faithlilly have come to the conclusion that I am criticising the police for failing to tackle Gerry on this supposedly major inconsistency regarding which door he used. I made it perfectly clear I didn't think it was an important issue, and neither obviously did the PJ, which must be hard for thr "Only Asking Questions" Brigade to get their heads around!
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 08:48:28 PM
Every time a supporter finds a new reason to criticise the investigation it reminds people that the McCanns began to discredit the Portuguese authorities right from the start.
The description of the investigation as botched was not started by the McCanns or justice seekers like myself. The extent of your bias is seriously affecting your judgement
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Anna on July 20, 2015, 09:07:41 PM
Please get back on Topic . Thank You
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2015, 09:10:31 PM
The father of a missing child, according to his first statement, walked within inches of the open window through which he believed his daughter was abducted and didn't notice it was open. That is a big mistake no matter what way you slice it.
Don't bandy words with me, Sweetie. You prove what you say to be true.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 09:14:58 PM
As Alfred has pointed out...the supposed inconsistencies in the statements which are such a source of interest to the doubters were of no interest to the PJ...more proof that the statements were not accurate
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2015, 09:32:35 PM
Don't even think about insulting anyone, any of you. Because I am not having it. Okay.
Report me if you don't like it.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Anna on July 20, 2015, 09:36:59 PM
We seem to be slipping off topic again. Can we please slip back on and leave out any personal remarks. Thank you
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 20, 2015, 10:24:13 PM
Ahh. If your idea is that Gerry hadn't realised that if Kate would have necessarily seen the open shutter upon walking the long way via the front and the story suddenly had to change between his statement and hers via communication over lunchtime... I'd thought of that, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
I doubt that if there had been a staging of the window that it would not have been taken into account. All Kate had to say was that as she passed by the window on the way to entering the flat from the front that she noticed that he blinds were up. It wouldn't have changed anything. If Gerry had decided to stage raising the blinds, there's still not reason to enter via the front. Even less to state - in the SAME statement - that he'd exited via the patio door which was how Matt went when he checked.
I really don't think that anyone was terribly awake when that statement was taken.
I don't think Gerry considered the 'open shutter' idea at all. I think the fact that he said he used a key, Matthew did not, then Kate did is the crucial bit, because it makes little sense.
I think Matthew was simultaneously giving evidence, therefore 'key stories' had not been discussed. Kate gave her first statement in the afternoon, which does not have the key, so I do not suspect 'key rigging'.
Gerry was awake when his second statement was taken (around 10 May) and his first action was to verify that his original statement was correct. Then to change it.
Just for the record, this does not make Gerry guilty of any crime, with perhaps the minor exception that a witness is required by Portuguese law to answer all questions truthfully.
It was not a good way to get the hunt for Madeleine progressed. If, statistically, the first persons suspected in a child disappearance are the parents, then Gerry was acting in a manner to deflect attention away from an abductor, and onto Kate and himself. A potential bum deal for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 10:24:44 PM
Try looking up "whoosh" in a pocket language dictionary. ;)
Or "turn-ups", which could sound like turnips. The British might be a bit odd, but why have winter vegetables hanging on the bottom of children's pyjamas?
Do you think regional accents would stump a professional translator to the degree they might write down turnips were hanging on the end of pyjamas? Without (even if they thought this) getting clarification? I do believe the shoddy police translators "theory" has very little value, if any at all. isn't this just an apologist's dream scenario? Besides, no translator wrote "turnips" in any PT translation LOL! Or anything that fantastical.
&%+((£
because let's face it, no one here has proved very much in this regard, all these pages later. No one has proved either that Gerry did NOT say he entered his apartment using his key. it is in the onus of the asserters to prove what they assert. if they cannot then they should stop asserting it IMO.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: slartibartfast on July 20, 2015, 10:41:18 PM
It's not a "big mistake" - if he'd walked past an open window without noticing it was open it would simply have said "this man is not very observant", something we already know from his failure to see Jane Tanner walking by. Either way, it's no biggie.
Walking past your own apartment without noticing is more than not very observant.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 10:56:17 PM
Walking past your own apartment without noticing is more than not very observant.
If I walk past my apartment in the evening and don't notice that the window is open when I enter by the front door then does that mean I likely staged the burglary that happened there earlier? Is that the conclusion the police would draw?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Anna on July 20, 2015, 10:56:48 PM
If I walk past my apartment in the evening and don't notice that the window is open when I enter by the front door then does that mean I likely staged the burglary that happened there earlier? Is that the conclusion the police would draw?
you would be a prize dunce at best if you didn't even LOOK! Out of curiosity after leaving your THREE TODDLERS in it on their own and with NO security vis a vis locks, honestly! If you're a grandfather I'm SURE you would give your back teeth (if you've any left) to ensure those kids were not at risk instead of leaving them in
- an unlocked apartment easily accessible from a traffic road and to which yu had not an iota of sight or sound - whilst TELLING complete strangers this is EXACTLY what you did EVERY NIGHT (and later complaining strNgers met have told other strangers!)
Do you not realise how BAD this all sounds?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 11:07:20 PM
If I walk past my apartment in the evening and don't notice that the window is open when I enter by the front door then does that mean I likely staged the burglary that happened there earlier? Is that the conclusion the police would draw?
Do they have big white shutters covering them? Then they are gone @)(++(*
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 21, 2015, 08:09:10 AM
Do they have big white shutters covering them? Then they are gone @)(++(*
You can laugh all you want, no one was ever charged with a crime for failing to notice that an intruder had opened the shutters and windows to their property as far as I'm aware. And, I'll say it again, if the police had thought that Gerry's correction to his statement was as mightily significant as you guys do then they would have questioned him hard about it, wouldn't they?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 21, 2015, 08:27:30 AM
You can laugh all you want, no one was ever charged with a crime for failing to notice that an intruder had opened the shutters and windows to their property as far as I'm aware. And, I'll say it again, if the police had thought that Gerry's correction to his statement was as mightily significant as you guys do then they would have questioned him hard about it, wouldn't they?
You will get a lot of laughter and ad hominen attacks as the points you are making simply have no real answers from the only asking questions brigade
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 08:39:59 AM
You can laugh all you want, no one was ever charged with a crime for failing to notice that an intruder had opened the shutters and windows to their property as far as I'm aware. And, I'll say it again, if the police had thought that Gerry's correction to his statement was as mightily significant as you guys do then they would have questioned him hard about it, wouldn't they?
A lack of consistency in the statements, and bearing in mind the situation, suggests mr. mccann was altering his story to fit in with the 'abduction'.
So the question does arise as to why the police didn't do anything about it.
and of course, it was the only inconsistency in the accounts of the people involved.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 21, 2015, 08:41:00 AM
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 12:07:11 PM
There are inadvertent errors in the files due to nuances in language or the addition of or the missing out of words which can entirely distort meaning.
That there has also been selective editing of the file materials can be verified by reference to ...
... the editing on this occasion has been recorded with a screen shot, which was fortunate because I believe it was removed almost immediately.
It does however beg the question of how often such unscrupulous manipulation was perpetrated to massage public opinion ... it also makes me for one ponder about the motive of the people prepared to go to these lengths to discredit the parents of a missing child and who was "advising" them how to do it.
** snip Re: New VIDEO - Who Died In McCanns Apartment? Sniffer Dogs Eddie & Keela Alert to Cadaver/Blood. HiDeHo Today I have been advised of some 'factual' discrepancies.
Probably not important to the casual viewer but necessary to change for pro McCann arguments.
I am editing as advised and will upload a new copy shortly.
The original video will still be available with the link.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 01:55:12 PM
There are inadvertent errors in the files due to nuances in language or the addition of or the missing out of words which can entirely distort meaning.
That there has also been selective editing of the file materials can be verified by reference to ...
... the editing on this occasion has been recorded with a screen shot, which was fortunate because I believe it was removed almost immediately.
It does however beg the question of how often such unscrupulous manipulation was perpetrated to massage public opinion ... it also makes me for one ponder about the motive of the people prepared to go to these lengths to discredit the parents of a missing child and who was "advising" them how to do it.
** snip Re: New VIDEO - Who Died In McCanns Apartment? Sniffer Dogs Eddie & Keela Alert to Cadaver/Blood. HiDeHo Today I have been advised of some 'factual' discrepancies.
Probably not important to the casual viewer but necessary to change for pro McCann arguments.
I am editing as advised and will upload a new copy shortly.
The original video will still be available with the link.
Wasn't this three/four years ago and nothing to do with translation of the PJ files? It seems to be referring to a video?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 04:45:09 PM
Sigh ... I think the clue that the adulteration of a video was the object of discussion may be "Re: New VIDEO"
"Adulteration" by Internet posters who have opinions and their own interpretations of the facts rightly or wrongly and go on to write essays, blogs, post, make videos, etc, has nothng to do wth the subject of this thread. Your attempt to conjoin "errors" in the official police files as well as "errors" allegedly made by the Portuguese translators used by the police , and "errors" made by volunteer translators of the PJ files, with this ,and turn it into some conspiracy is noted.
@GU
No, there was no video included in the PJ files. The official dog video was apparently released by a journalist called D Levy.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 07:11:51 PM
"Adulteration" by Internet posters who have opinions and their own interpretations of the facts rightly or wrongly and go on to write essays, blogs, post, make videos, etc, has nothng to do wth the subject of this thread. Your attempt to conjoin "errors" in the official police files as well as "errors" allegedly made by the Portuguese translators used by the police , and "errors" made by volunteer translators of the PJ files, with this ,and turn it into some conspiracy is noted.
@GU
No, there was no video included in the PJ files. The official dog video was apparently released by a journalist called D Levy.
The PT transcript of the car video is in the files and there's an error in it. Grime clearly said that he wasn't going to put Eddie in the car, and the translation missed out "not" - i.e., that he WAS going to put him in. That mistake then ended up in TdeA's report.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 07:15:16 PM
Thank you for the links, but as I thought, no videos were released with the PJ Files, which are the subject of this thread. Anything relating to videos should be on another thread imo.
@carana. Why didn't someone say that then, instead of talking about videos? Sigh.....
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 07:19:30 PM
The PT transcript of the car video is in the files and there's an error in it. Grime clearly said that he wasn't going to put Eddie in the car, and the translation missed out "not" - i.e., that he WAS going to put him in. That mistake then ended up in TdeA's report.
Not exactly a relevant response to my post,never mind though, the deflection is noted
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 07:20:20 PM
Thank you for the links, but as I thought, no videos were released with the PJ Files, which are the subject of this thread. Anything relating to videos should be on another thread imo.
@carana. Why didn't someone say that then, instead of talking about videos? Sigh.....
The dog videos are part of the case files, but weren't released on the DVD. And what has been made available is not the full footage.
If you couldn't compare the video to the transcript, the mistake would have become fact - and actually was stated as fact in the TdeA report.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 07:26:34 PM
"Adulteration" by Internet posters who have opinions and their own interpretations of the facts rightly or wrongly and go on to write essays, blogs, post, make videos, etc, has nothng to do wth the subject of this thread. Your attempt to conjoin "errors" in the official police files as well as "errors" allegedly made by the Portuguese translators used by the police , and "errors" made by volunteer translators of the PJ files, with this ,and turn it into some conspiracy is noted.
@GU
No, there was no video included in the PJ files. The official dog video was apparently released by a journalist called D Levy.
If you don't know or have forgotten Duarte Levy's role in releasing the files to the internet it might be worth refreshing by taking a glance at discussion which has taken place on the forum on another occasion ...
Topic: Are the Tapas Rogatory statements as released by Duarte Levy genuine? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3835.msg142689#msg142689
It is also worth noting that according to the stamp on the videos he has apparently appropriated copyright to them ??
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 07:34:09 PM
If you don't know or have forgotten Duarte Levy's role in releasing the files to the internet it might be worth refreshing by taking a glance at discussion which has taken place on the forum on another occasion ...
Topic: Are the Tapas Rogatory statements as released by Duarte Levy genuine? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3835.msg142689#msg142689
It is also worth noting that according to the stamp on the videos he has apparently appropriated copyright to them ??
So? What is your point? And the rogatory interviews were secured from the Liecester Police by someone NOT called D Levy.! Do you not have any criticism for the UK police officer who leaked them? We "are" going off topic let me remind though. perhaps you would like to revive the linked thread wth any problems you have? That need solving?
PS I forgot to say I seriously hope you are not a member of that particular tin hat brigade that think D Levy doctored the rogatory interviews.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 08:50:38 PM
The PT transcript of the car video is in the files and there's an error in it. Grime clearly said that he wasn't going to put Eddie in the car, and the translation missed out "not" - i.e., that he WAS going to put him in. That mistake then ended up in TdeA's report.
do you have any links please?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 09:00:10 PM
If you don't know or have forgotten Duarte Levy's role in releasing the files to the internet it might be worth refreshing by taking a glance at discussion which has taken place on the forum on another occasion ...
Topic: Are the Tapas Rogatory statements as released by Duarte Levy genuine? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3835.msg142689#msg142689
It is also worth noting that according to the stamp on the videos he has apparently appropriated copyright to them ??
Did Swan and Summers have anything to say about this?
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
The PT transcript of the car video is in the files and there's an error in it. Grime clearly said that he wasn't going to put Eddie in the car, and the translation missed out "not" - i.e., that he WAS going to put him in. That mistake then ended up in TdeA's report.
Oh my goodness how terrible! I wonder how I missed that? I also wonder why I never thought Eddie was put into the car? I always thought it was just Keela who checked the boot, and they both alerted to the key when it was removed from the car. I missed that translation error completely. In fact, I always wondered why Eddie wasn't put into the car.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 08:34:35 AM
Oh my goodness how terrible! I wonder how I missed that? I also wonder why I never thought Eddie was put into the car? I always thought it was just Keela who checked the boot, and they both alerted to the key when it was removed from the car. I missed that translation error completely. In fact, I always wondered why Eddie wasn't put into the car.
That's the origin of numerous lurid headlines on cadaver scent in the boot and one of the most enduring myths: a simple translation error. If Almeida had watched the footage, he should have noticed that Eddie never did bark at the boot and that it was only Keela who was allowed internal access.
I presume that Grime's reasoning was that as Eddie had reacted to the door, that was reason enough to let Keela try to pinpoint any blood. Before Keela went in, the car was given the once-over by the forensic people for them to recuperate anything of interest (fibres, hairs, nail clippings, and presumably a search for body fluids). Putting Keela in after that avoided contamination and adding dog hairs.
IFAIK, no body fluids were detected as there's no mention of it in the report. The only indication that there may have been a molecular trace of blood deposited at some point was Keela's alert.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 08:47:49 AM
Here's another translation error - this time an omission. In his summary translation of the Lowe email, João Carlos forgot to translate that the 15/19 alleles were found in a sample containing 37 from 3-5 donors.
Here's another translation error - this time an omission. In his summary translation of the Lowe email, João Carlos forgot to translate that the 15/19 alleles were found in a sample containing 37 from 3-5 donors.
An omission or a wrongful interpretation is not a "translation error" of the type we are discussing here. I'm sure in the Mccanns 100k "properly translated" files it is exactly the same.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: stephen25000 on July 22, 2015, 05:51:04 PM
An omission or a wrongful interpretation is not a "translation error" of the type we are discussing here. I'm sure in the Mccanns 100k "properly translated" files it is exactly the same.
Isn't it amazing how so Many 'errors' are complained of by the mccanns and their supporters, especially when the original statements are altered to suit the story.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 05:59:34 PM
Isn't it amazing how so Many 'errors' are complained of by the mccanns and their supporters, especially when the original statements are altered to suit the story.
of course, the Portuguese are guilty of all sorts, the Mccanns MUST be kept on a saintly spire at all costs for some inexplicable reason
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Anna on July 22, 2015, 06:06:46 PM
Please get back on the topic of the thread that we appear to be slipping away from. Thank you
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 06:10:03 PM
An omission or a wrongful interpretation is not a "translation error" of the type we are discussing here. I'm sure in the Mccanns 100k "properly translated" files it is exactly the same.
The title of your thread is "Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files".
If you don't think that omissions or misunderstandings due to a language barrier can occur and thus appear to be misleading, then perhaps you could specify more precise boundaries concerning your topic title.
Sorry, I forgot your OP:
There should be so many for so many to make such a fuss and disregard/question translations they don't like but quote parts they do and/or attach to their arguments.
&%+((£
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 07:28:23 PM
Could you clarify what you mean by translation errors? And made by whom?
Are misinterpretations or omissions due to the difficulties of a language barrier beyond the scope of this thread or not?
Carana I'm surprised you have to ask
I've said repeatedly in ths thread why it was started
Accusations that the police translators got things wrong for starters Then accusations that interpreters of the PJ files deliberately mistranslated what was in them
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Mr Gray on July 22, 2015, 10:30:46 PM
I've said repeatedly in ths thread why it was started
Accusations that the police translators got things wrong for starters Then accusations that interpreters of the PJ files deliberately mistranslated what was in them
no one has said the mistranslations were deliberate
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 10:43:39 PM
no one has said the mistranslations were deliberate
you and others in here have questioned the validity of the files for many reasons, from the unlikely to the impossible,from blaming interpreters and police for all sorts to some here saying statements have been fiddled with, (ask ferryman on that count) so don't pretend now, and no one has shown anything anywhere to date that has any importance to anything ergo any argument about mistranslation is zilch IMO
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2015, 11:06:02 PM
you and others in here have questioned the validity of the files for many reasons, from the unlikely to the impossible,from blaming interpreters and police for all sorts to some here saying statements have been fiddled with, (ask ferryman on that count) so don't pretend now, and no one has shown anything anywhere to date that has any importance to anything ergo any argument about mistranslation is zilch IMO
I agree. Nothing of importance has been demonstrated.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2015, 11:29:09 PM
Carol Tranmer collaborated in making an efit of the person she saw from her aunt's balcony. This was sent to Portugal and returned to Britain along with the statement she made to the Portuguese police for information when making a rogatory statement.
Somewhere along the line it would seem that the efit sent with her statement was not the efit which had been sent to Portugal for inclusion with her statement.
Now whether that could be considered to be of no importance or not is all a matter of opinion. But it does illustrate that mistakes are made and each mistake has the potential to disrupt a chain of evidence.
**snip DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'
CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair.
DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.
CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.
DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.
Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'
CT'The hair is right. More or less.
DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.
CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.
DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...
CT'The top, his head is...
DC1485'The same.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'
CT'Well, he had a long face.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes, this, this you know.
DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.
CT'No, certainly it is not.
DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.
CT'Is this what they sent'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This I made'
DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'
CT'No, a young person, humm...
DCc1485'Male'
CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.
DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'From Reading.
DC1485'Yes, from Reading.
CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.
Carol Tranmer collaborated in making an efit of the person she saw from her aunt's balcony. This was sent to Portugal and returned to Britain along with the statement she made to the Portuguese police for information when making a rogatory statement.
Somewhere along the line it would seem that the efit sent with her statement was not the efit which had been sent to Portugal for inclusion with her statement.
Now whether that could be considered to be of no importance or not is all a matter of opinion. But it does illustrate that mistakes are made and each mistake has the potential to disrupt a chain of evidence.
**snip DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'
CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair.
DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.
CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.
DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.
Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'
CT'The hair is right. More or less.
DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.
CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.
DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...
CT'The top, his head is...
DC1485'The same.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'
CT'Well, he had a long face.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes, this, this you know.
DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.
CT'No, certainly it is not.
DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.
CT'Is this what they sent'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This I made'
DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'
CT'No, a young person, humm...
DCc1485'Male'
CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.
DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'From Reading.
DC1485'Yes, from Reading.
CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.
I am sure police forces throughout the world sleep better at night in the knowledge that whatever may happen they can depend on the expert long stops, afforded by fora such as this, to save the day.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2015, 11:39:40 PM
Carol Tranmer collaborated in making an efit of the person she saw from her aunt's balcony. This was sent to Portugal and returned to Britain along with the statement she made to the Portuguese police for information when making a rogatory statement.
Somewhere along the line it would seem that the efit sent with her statement was not the efit which had been sent to Portugal for inclusion with her statement.
Now whether that could be considered to be of no importance or not is all a matter of opinion. But it does illustrate that mistakes are made and each mistake has the potential to disrupt a chain of evidence.
**snip DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'
CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair.
DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.
CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.
DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.
Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'
CT'The hair is right. More or less.
DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.
CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.
DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...
CT'The top, his head is...
DC1485'The same.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'
CT'Well, he had a long face.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes, this, this you know.
DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.
CT'No, certainly it is not.
DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.
CT'Is this what they sent'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This I made'
DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'
CT'No, a young person, humm...
DCc1485'Male'
CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.
DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'From Reading.
DC1485'Yes, from Reading.
CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.
I am sure police forces throughout the world sleep better at night in the knowledge that whatever may happen they can depend on the expert long stops, afforded by fora such as this, to save the day.
I rather think it is the perpetrator of the crime against Madeleine McCann who has been enabled to rest easy when all the flack has been directed at her parents and not him ... aided and abetted by misunderstandings such as many of those noted on this thread. No armchair detective is going to come close to solving this crime so as far as some are concerned inaccuracies in the files will serve in their pastime of metaphorically beating up Madeleine's parents. Fortunately, the professionally translated files will enable SY to do their job ... and the PJ will have no bother either.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2015, 12:04:33 AM
Carol Tranmer collaborated in making an efit of the person she saw from her aunt's balcony. This was sent to Portugal and returned to Britain along with the statement she made to the Portuguese police for information when making a rogatory statement.
Somewhere along the line it would seem that the efit sent with her statement was not the efit which had been sent to Portugal for inclusion with her statement.
Now whether that could be considered to be of no importance or not is all a matter of opinion. But it does illustrate that mistakes are made and each mistake has the potential to disrupt a chain of evidence.
**snip DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'
CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair.
DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.
CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.
DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.
Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'
CT'The hair is right. More or less.
DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.
CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.
DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...
CT'The top, his head is...
DC1485'The same.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'
CT'Well, he had a long face.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes, this, this you know.
DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.
CT'No, certainly it is not.
DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.
CT'Is this what they sent'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This I made'
DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'
CT'No, a young person, humm...
DCc1485'Male'
CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.
DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'From Reading.
DC1485'Yes, from Reading.
CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.
There is no replacement for research, I find, before making posts. It seems that DC1485 was briefed wrongly. The PJ deliberately sent Tasmin Silence's e-fit to be shown to Carol Tranmer to see if she recognised him;
Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER, PAMELA FENN'S niece, who lives in the apartment above the one used by the McCANN family, to be identified by the Requested Authority. She should be asked the following questions :
Do you recognise him in the photo-fit made by the witness TASMIN SILENCE, which is enclosed to the Letter of Request ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2015, 12:15:40 AM
I rather think it is the perpetrator of the crime against Madeleine McCann who has been enabled to rest easy when all the flack has been directed at her parents and not him ... aided and abetted by misunderstandings such as many of those noted on this thread. No armchair detective is going to come close to solving this crime so as far as some are concerned inaccuracies in the files will serve in their pastime of metaphorically beating up Madeleine's parents. Fortunately, the professionally translated files will enable SY to do their job ... and the PJ will have no bother either.
He/she/they are not alone. Why is this one of many unsolved crimes, including a few murders, so special ? The PJ have primacy which I guess sticks in the throats of some judging by comments on here. Now being irreverent of nature I find that a real gasser.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 12:43:19 AM
There is no replacement for research, I find, before making posts. It seems that DC1485 was briefed wrongly. The PJ deliberately sent Tasmin Silence's e-fit to be shown to Carol Tranmer to see if she recognised him;
Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER, PAMELA FENN'S niece, who lives in the apartment above the one used by the McCANN family, to be identified by the Requested Authority. She should be asked the following questions :
Do you recognise him in the photo-fit made by the witness TASMIN SILENCE, which is enclosed to the Letter of Request ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
Well spotted may I say that the PJ were asking for a comparison to be made.
However it reinforces my assertion that things get lost in translation. In this case the misunderstanding and confusion was on the British side where it was obviously thought the efit was the one produces by Ms Tranmer ... who obviously knew it was not.
Therefore the wrong question was asked ... although I think the one you suggest is more than a little leading given the forensic questioning style of the officer involved.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2015, 12:54:43 AM
Well spotted may I say that the PJ were asking for a comparison to be made.
However it reinforces my assertion that things get lost in translation. In this case the misunderstanding and confusion was on the British side where it was obviously thought the efit was the one produces by Ms Tranmer ... who obviously knew it was not.
Therefore the wrong question was asked ... although I think the one you suggest is more than a little leading given the forensic questioning style of the officer involved.
it's easy, it's in those pesky files lol. This witnesses story isn't very helpful anyway, I've just been reading it. She's not exactly sure when she saw this 'sneaky man'; Sunday 29th or Thursday 3rd. She's not exactly sure what time; morning or afternoon. It actually sounds like it was Matthew Oldfield legitimately leaving his apartment (next to the Mccann's) by the back gate.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 01:08:33 AM
it's easy, it's in those pesky files lol. This witnesses story isn't very helpful anyway, I've just been reading it. She's not exactly sure when she saw this 'sneaky man'; Sunday 29th or Thursday 3rd. She's not exactly sure what time; morning or afternoon. It actually sounds like it was Matthew Oldfield legitimately leaving his apartment (next to the Mccann's) by the back gate.
I have read this statement on quite a few occasions and it always leaves me bemused. Despite the misunderstanding regarding Tamsin's efit the questioner's gently probing style has always impressed and getting Ms Tranmer to work out for herself she was in error with the date was pretty good.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 01:53:17 AM
I have read this statement on quite a few occasions and it always leaves me bemused. Despite the misunderstanding regarding Tamsin's efit the questioner's gently probing style has always impressed and getting Ms Tranmer to work out for herself she was in error with the date was pretty good.
Or else most probably, a pile of bollcks as is almost everythg in ths case!!
Can you stick to the topic herein? Thanks
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2015, 08:08:39 AM
I have read this statement on quite a few occasions and it always leaves me bemused. Despite the misunderstanding regarding Tamsin's efit the questioner's gently probing style has always impressed and getting Ms Tranmer to work out for herself she was in error with the date was pretty good.
Allegedly one who was good with the ladies, maybe that's how he developed his 'gently probing' style? ?{)(**
Did we ever get to know the outcome of the proposed enquiry into this allegation?
Quote
"The Force demands the highest standard of professionalism from all staff and will thoroughly investigate any allegations of inappropriate behaviour.
"The Force's Professional Standards Department will now investigate the alleged incident and therefore it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time."
Unquote
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 11:04:51 AM
Did we ever get to know the outcome of the proposed enquiry into this allegation?
Quote
"The Force demands the highest standard of professionalism from all staff and will thoroughly investigate any allegations of inappropriate behaviour.
"The Force's Professional Standards Department will now investigate the alleged incident and therefore it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time."
Unquote
LOL ... I have checked out the allegation on the fora which have dedicated threads to this alleged incident ... what I find astounding is that the alleged conduct of an officer whose only connection to Madeleine McCann's parents is that he took rog statements from some witnesses was used to quite openly excoriate them. WOW!!
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 01:15:55 PM
Did we ever get to know the outcome of the proposed enquiry into this allegation?
Quote
"The Force demands the highest standard of professionalism from all staff and will thoroughly investigate any allegations of inappropriate behaviour.
"The Force's Professional Standards Department will now investigate the alleged incident and therefore it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time."
Unquote
He was cleared by Leicester Police of any misconduct but the case got referred to the IPCC, result unknown. He is retired now.
LOL ... I have checked out the allegation on the fora which have dedicated threads to this alleged incident ... what I find astounding is that the alleged conduct of an officer whose only connection to Madeleine McCann's parents is that he took rog statements from some witnesses was used to quite openly excoriate them. WOW!!
This discussion began by you criticising the PJ for sending the wrong e-fit to Leicester police to show to Mrs Tranmer.
It turned out they didn't make any mistake. I then questioned the witnesses vagueness and the police officer for not knowing or not making clear what he was showing to the witness.
You responded (as is your wont when the UK police are discussed) by using your 'admiring' tone in relation to this detective. You said;
'the questioner's gently probing style has always impressed and getting Ms Tranmer to work out for herself she was in error with the date was pretty good.'
I provided a link suggesting that he was quite possibly not that professional. How on earth can you interpret that as being anything at all to do with the McCanns? it was all about the detective, nothing else.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 02:08:43 PM
This discussion began by you criticising the PJ for sending the wrong e-fit to Leicester police to show to Mrs Tranmer.
It turned out they didn't make any mistake. I then questioned the witnesses vagueness and the police officer for not knowing or not making clear what he was showing to the witness.
You responded (as is your wont when the UK police are discussed) by using your 'admiring' tone in relation to this detective. You said;
'the questioner's gently probing style has always impressed and getting Ms Tranmer to work out for herself she was in error with the date was pretty good.'
I provided a link suggesting that he was quite possibly not that professional. How on earth can you interpret that as being anything at all to do with the McCanns? it was all about the detective, nothing else.
Because I could not access the cite you provided ... I searched ... and found the police officer's alleged misdemeanour to be the subject of discussion on sceptic forums, where I was able to read the Telegraph article in its entirety in conjunction with many other predictable comments.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 02:18:36 PM
Nothng wrong with GU's lnk at all, I easily read it all, and I don't have a Telegraph subscription. You may have got what is called a pop up box asking you to subscribe. There is a little X on the top right of it, whch you just need to "click" and it goes away, leaving you free to read
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2015, 02:28:52 PM
Because I could not access the cite you provided ... I searched ... and found the police officer's alleged misdemeanour to be the subject of discussion on sceptic forums, where I was able to read the Telegraph article in its entirety in conjunction with many other predictable comments.
Your post criticising the PJ for a 'mistake' was 1. off topic and 2. wrong. What is said in other places is irrelevant also. Do you have any translation errors to share with us, I wonder? I guess not.
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 12:27:19 AM
So, any "mistranslations" that scuppered the case? No, didn't think so
Title: Re: Please list all the translation errors in the PJ files
Post by: faithlilly on July 24, 2015, 11:31:33 AM