UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on September 16, 2015, 04:50:21 PM
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The prosecution case against JB at trial included a lack of gunshot residue on SC's hands. This also featured at JB's 2002 CoA hearing insofar as the defence claimed the correct procedures were not followed for evidence gathering and handling.
Perhaps a lack of gunshot residue can be explained by forensics?
"A rifle or shotgun may not deposit GSR on hands, but more likely in the crook of the support arm". (Dalby et al, 2010)
"A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported". (Dalby et al, 2010)
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
The absence of GSR does not indicate innocence.
"There are factors that contribute to particulate loss that must also be taken into consideration. For instance, suppose a firearm is discharged in a static environment (no wind or airflow). Hand samples are then collected immediately after the discharge on clean, dry hands. It would not be unusual to detect hundreds to thousands of GSR particles on these samples. Alternately, suppose a firearm was discharged outside during a windy day with inclement weather. Samples are collected several hours after the discharge, giving the subjects ample time to move, shake off, wipe, or wash their hands. In this instance, it might not be possible to find any GSR particles on the samples. This absence of gunshot residue is not an indication that the subject is innocent of discharging a firearm. All factors concerning particulate loss must be taken into account when determining if results are consistent with the aspects of a specific scenario".
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/09/science-behind-gsr-separating-fact-fiction
DI Cook moved SC's hand. Trial transcript:
Q: It would appear that the hand and arm have been moved who was responsible for that? A: I was sir.
Q: For what purpose? A: To demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=168.0;attach=297
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The prosecution case against JB at trial included a lack of gunshot residue on SC's hands. This also featured at JB's 2002 CoA hearing insofar as the defence claimed the correct procedures were not followed for evidence gathering and handling.
Perhaps a lack of gunshot residue can be explained by forensics?
"A rifle or shotgun may not deposit GSR on hands, but more likely in the crook of the support arm". (Dalby et al, 2010)
"A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported". (Dalby et al, 2010)
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
The absence of GSR does not indicate innocence.
"There are factors that contribute to particulate loss that must also be taken into consideration. For instance, suppose a firearm is discharged in a static environment (no wind or airflow). Hand samples are then collected immediately after the discharge on clean, dry hands. It would not be unusual to detect hundreds to thousands of GSR particles on these samples. Alternately, suppose a firearm was discharged outside during a windy day with inclement weather. Samples are collected several hours after the discharge, giving the subjects ample time to move, shake off, wipe, or wash their hands. In this instance, it might not be possible to find any GSR particles on the samples. This absence of gunshot residue is not an indication that the subject is innocent of discharging a firearm. All factors concerning particulate loss must be taken into account when determining if results are consistent with the aspects of a specific scenario".
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/09/science-behind-gsr-separating-fact-fiction
DI Cook moved SC's hand. Trial transcript:
Q: It would appear that the hand and arm have been moved who was responsible for that? A: I was sir.
Q: For what purpose? A: To demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=168.0;attach=297
A pity no one thought to ask these idiots why they moved the body.
Didn't the jury try loading the magazine in an attempt to see for themselves how tough it was to insert the final bullet? Of course, this may have been an irrelevant exercise because there is no way of knowing the shooter operated with a full magazine. There is also the fact the bullets were coated with beeswax (CA Lee) which would apparently result in grease being deposited on the hands of the user. She had no grease on her hands.
I don't know enough about GSR to be able to say one or the other whether its absence is significant here. I know it's evidence which can be abused and that there are question marks about those pristine hands and feet of hers so it's not a major part of my own thinking on this case.
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A pity no one thought to ask these idiots why they moved the body.
They did as above. Also if SC was responsible she clearly moved around after shooting the victims which based on the above would cause a loss of GSR.
Didn't the jury try loading the magazine in an attempt to see for themselves how tough it was to insert the final bullet? Of course, this may have been an irrelevant exercise because there is no way of knowing the shooter operated with a full magazine. There is also the fact the bullets were coated with beeswax (CA Lee) which would apparently result in grease being deposited on the hands of the user. She had no grease on her hands.
I believe the jury used the actual magazine which may well have been damaged from the beating NB sustained. Dont know about the beeswax will have to look into.
I don't know enough about GSR to be able to say one or the other whether its absence is significant here. I know it's evidence which can be abused and that there are question marks about those pristine hands and feet of hers so it's not a major part of my own thinking on this case.
Did the UK based 'experts' in the 1980's know enough about GSR to be able to say one way or the other? Were SC's hands "pristine"? What would we expect to find on her feet if responsible? Dr V/CAL said words to the effect it was a lottery where she trod. If NB was in a life and death "struggle" what about blood and sugar on his feet?
It seems to me the defence have gone along with the forensics and attempted to challenge the prosecution based on procedural errors in evidence gathering and handling as opposed to a direct attack on the forensics.
I restarted my thread on Mumsnet a few weeks back which I need to respond to so might catch you there anglolawyer if it's going to be just the two of us.
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They did as above. Also if SC was responsible she clearly moved around after shooting the victims which based on the above would cause a loss of GSR.
You mean they moved her hand. I mean they moved her entire body by a few inches, seemingly by pulling on her feet. You can see it in the crime scene pics (assuming not doctored). Astonishingly, at the 2002 appeal, the crown tried to introduce the evidence of Dr Ismail about this without apparently realising that the crime scene photos showed it was the cops, rather than the killer, who moved her.
I believe the jury used the actual magazine which may well have been damaged from the beating NB sustained. Dont know about the beeswax will have to look into.
I got the beeswax thing from CA Lee, I think. Not 100% on that.
Did the UK based 'experts' in the 1980's know enough about GSR to be able to say one way or the other? Were SC's hands "pristine"? What would we expect to find on her feet if responsible? Dr V/CAL said words to the effect it was a lottery where she trod. If NB was in a life and death "struggle" what about blood and sugar on his feet?
I don't know anything about the state of knowledge about GSR in the 80s. I am discussing the struggle with Nevill elsewhere right now. My present theory is he ran across the kitchen, knocking a few chairs over and jarring the table, closely followed by his killer who then butted him unconscious before reloading and plugging him four times through the brain. I don't think there was a battle raging back and forth across the room IOW.
It seems to me the defence have gone along with the forensics and attempted to challenge the prosecution based on procedural errors in evidence gathering and handling as opposed to a direct attack on the forensics.
I agree. Legal Aid was pretty good in the 80s (don't try this type of thing now, folks) so they should have been able to debunk some of it. However, Lee tells us in her book that Bamber wanted to suggest the silencer was a plant but that Rivlin ruled that out. I can very well imagine the defence strategy was to avoid at all costs such suggestions for fear of turning the case into a binary decision between the integrity of the police and Bamber's guilt. Very tricky stuff.
I restarted my thread on Mumsnet a few weeks back which I need to respond to so might catch you there anglolawyer if it's going to be just the two of us.
If they had the 'boggled' emoticon I would employ it here. Naturally, I do not post on mums net.
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I think two forums at once is more than enough, unless you want to know the cheapest bargains at Lidl or the best variety of Pampers to buy for little Johnny.
How about this one, al... %&5%£
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Not sure whether you've seen this other view of the kitchen, al. A smear of blood on the kitchen cupboard, shards of broken lampshade on the floor, and the carpet under which Nevill's watch with broken strap was found...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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They did as above. Also if SC was responsible she clearly moved around after shooting the victims which based on the above would cause a loss of GSR.
I believe the jury used the actual magazine which may well have been damaged from the beating NB sustained. Dont know about the beeswax will have to look into.
Did the UK based 'experts' in the 1980's know enough about GSR to be able to say one way or the other? Were SC's hands "pristine"? What would we expect to find on her feet if responsible? Dr V/CAL said words to the effect it was a lottery where she trod. If NB was in a life and death "struggle" what about blood and sugar on his feet?
It seems to me the defence have gone along with the forensics and attempted to challenge the prosecution based on procedural errors in evidence gathering and handling as opposed to a direct attack on the forensics.
I restarted my thread on Mumsnet a few weeks back which I need to respond to so might catch you there anglolawyer if it's going to be just the two of us.
Mumsnet??? As in "why does my spag bol taste so bland" Mumsnet?
Oh Holl. 8(8-))
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*&*%£
I created a thread on Mumsnet re JB:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1975100-Jeremy-Bamber-Is-this-the-worst-MoJ-in-British-criminal-history.
The members are from all walks of life and discuss a wide range of topics. There are actually a number of existing threads devoted to JB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet
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I think two forums at once is more than enough, unless you want to know the cheapest bargains at Lidl or the best variety of Pampers to buy for little Johnny.
How about this one, al... %&5%£
No, that's not the one, but thanks for trying.
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*&*%£
I created a thread on Mumsnet re JB:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1975100-Jeremy-Bamber-Is-this-the-worst-MoJ-in-British-criminal-history (http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1975100-Jeremy-Bamber-Is-this-the-worst-MoJ-in-British-criminal-history).
The members are from all walks of life and discuss a wide range of topics. There are actually a number of existing threads devoted to JB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet)
You took those words straight out of Eric Allison's mouth! How come none of the mums agree with you?
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You took those words straight out of Eric Allison's mouth! How come none of the mums agree with you?
I guess it beats being accused of writing for The Sun!
Coz they're only capable of discussing "the cheapest bargains at Lidl" and " the best variety of Pampers to buy" Actually I thought there was a mixture of opinion. The media has done a fantastic job of character assassination on JB and unless one has the time and inclination to delve a little further most are happy to go along with the official line.
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You mean they moved her hand. I mean they moved her entire body by a few inches, seemingly by pulling on her feet. You can see it in the crime scene pics (assuming not doctored). Astonishingly, at the 2002 appeal, the crown tried to introduce the evidence of Dr Ismail about this without apparently realising that the crime scene photos showed it was the cops, rather than the killer, who moved her.
Well according to the links above any sort of movement of the hands/body can cause a loss of GSR. I've never really understood the evidence of Dr Ismail but I think I might now!
I got the beeswax thing from CA Lee, I think. Not 100% on that.
Yes I recall reading it in CAL' book. First I've heard of this. I will need to check it out.
I don't know anything about the state of knowledge about GSR in the 80s. I am discussing the struggle with Nevill elsewhere right now. My present theory is he ran across the kitchen, knocking a few chairs over and jarring the table, closely followed by his killer who then butted him unconscious before reloading and plugging him four times through the brain. I don't think there was a battle raging back and forth across the room IOW.
It seems to me home grown knowledge on firearms, ballistics, GSR etc, etc in the 80's would be fairly low compared to say US and S.Africa due to the low ownership and use of firearms in the UK. For example I note the US guys in the following vid say there's no learning curve with a.22 rifle and yet at JB's trial you needed to be a nuclear scientist to operate one. A very careful read of the pathology report indicates to me poor NB was almost dead by the time he reached the kitchen so I'm not sure about running.
http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/?powerpress_pinw=982-podcast
I agree. Legal Aid was pretty good in the 80s (don't try this type of thing now, folks) so they should have been able to debunk some of it. However, Lee tells us in her book that Bamber wanted to suggest the silencer was a plant but that Rivlin ruled that out. I can very well imagine the defence strategy was to avoid at all costs such suggestions for fear of turning the case into a binary decision between the integrity of the police and Bamber's guilt. Very tricky stuff.
If they had the 'boggled' emoticon I would employ it here. Naturally, I do not post on mums net.
I don't know enough about the machinations of trials to know whether or not it was tricky for GR to go with deliberate contamination of the silencer/a plant. Many of the high profile MoJ's involving police wrongdoing hadn't come to light at the time of JB's trial so maybe.
Why "naturally"? As I explained Mumsnet has members from all walks of life, including both sexes, and covers a wide range of topics
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The latest lubricant for Eley subsonics is paraffin wax. Perhaps this has always been used, and was mistaken for beeswax when examined in '85.
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow (http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow)
I don't believe Nevill was anywhere near dead, (although badly wounded) when he reached the kitchen. I think those 3 or 4 pistol whips with the rifle barrel to his right forearm occured there and the wristw..ch band was broken off by the impact during that incident.
ETA: the bending stress of the above on the wooden stock where it meets the metal firing mechanism housing might have been great enough to break a piece off. Failing that the rifle could have been dropped butt end down, again having the same effect.
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Well according to the links above any sort of movement of the hands/body can cause a loss of GSR. I've never really understood the evidence of Dr Ismail but I think I might now!
Yes I recall reading it in CAL' book. First I've heard of this. I will need to check it out.
It seems to me home grown knowledge on firearms, ballistics, GSR etc, etc in the 80's would be fairly low compared to say US and S.Africa due to the low ownership and use of firearms in the UK. For example I note the US guys in the following vid say there's no learning curve with a.22 rifle and yet at JB's trial you needed to be a nuclear scientist to operate one. A very careful read of the pathology report indicates to me poor NB was almost dead by the time he reached the kitchen so I'm not sure about running.
http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/?powerpress_pinw=982-podcast
I don't know enough about the machinations of trials to know whether or not it was tricky for GR to go with deliberate contamination of the silencer/a plant. Many of the high profile MoJ's involving police wrongdoing hadn't come to light at the time of JB's trial so maybe.
Why "naturally"? As I explained Mumsnet has members from all walks of life, including both sexes, and covers a wide range of topics
It's generally very dangerous to base your defence on an accusation of serious impropriety and most lawyers will try to avoid that if possible. Among other reasons, as soon as you attack the character of a prosecution witness, you bring your own character into play which means the jury gets to hear about your past. There were rules about these things which the police knew well and played to the limit.
As I am a member of too many forums already (and not a Mum neither) I'll skip mums net for for now, although I like the idea of a matronly discussion of this very bloody murder. Please insert emoticon of your choice here.
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The latest lubricant for Eley subsonics is paraffin wax. Perhaps this has always been used, and was mistaken for beeswax when examined in '85.
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow (http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow)
As resourceful as ever, thank you 8**8:/: It appears beeswax is commonly used as a lube for bullets. I'm wondering if SC used hand cream what effect, if any, this would have on the various debris associated with gun fire: bullet lube, GSR. I use the following as it comes in a pink tube 8**8:/: and its great for nails 8**8:/: but take a peep at all the ingredients. You need to click on the ingredients tab:
http://www.vaseline.co.uk/product/intensive-care/targeted-care/healthy-hands-stronge-nails.html
I don't believe Nevill was anywhere near dead, (although badly wounded) when he reached the kitchen. I think those 3 or 4 pistol whips with the rifle barrel to his right forearm occurred there and the wristw..ch band was broken off by the impact during that incident.
The pathologist makes it clear that had the downstairs shots not supervened the upstairs shots would have killed him. He also describes severe pain and heavy blood loss internally and externally from the upstairs shots. It seems to me that the severity of NB's upstairs shots was not spelled out to the jury. Had they have been I don't believe it would have been possible to advance the idea of a "struggle" in the kitchen. Which then kills the aga/scratch/paint on silencer.
I'm sure you're probably right about the other points but they don't preclude JB or SC?
ETA: the bending stress of the above on the wooden stock where it meets the metal firing mechanism housing might have been great enough to break a piece off. Failing that the rifle could have been dropped butt end down, again having the same effect.
I'm sure you're probably right about the other points but they don't preclude JB or SC?
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It's generally very dangerous to base your defence on an accusation of serious impropriety and most lawyers will try to avoid that if possible. Among other reasons, as soon as you attack the character of a prosecution witness, you bring your own character into play which means the jury gets to hear about your past. There were rules about these things which the police knew well and played to the limit.
Yes I can see your point especially given 30 years ago a jury were likely to be far more deferential to all concerned: middle class law abiding landowning rellies, trainee school teacher, police, expert witnesses, judiciary. Still think a.n.other QC could have drubbed the prosecution by attacking the forensics and pathological evidence. When I say forensics I mean the sort of stuff we discuss eg GSR, whether the rifle and ammo used were capable of producing the draw-back effect and pathological in terms of NB being too badly injured to enter into a "struggle".
It seems to me the prosecution pretty much trashed JB's character anyway. How much worse does it get when prosecution witnesses state he made disparaging (to put it mildly) comments re his family. Then break into the family firm fake a robbery and steal several hundred pounds. Was there an element of unknown parentage/"bad blood" amongst all concerned? Would it have made a difference had the jury have known JB's birth family were law abiding citizens?
As I am a member of too many forums already (and not a Mum neither) I'll skip mums net for for now, although I like the idea of a matronly discussion of this very bloody murder. Please insert emoticon of your choice here.
The forums you've mentioned you're a member of concern true crime/miscarriages of justice so maybe Mumsnet will make you into the rounded person you want to be 8)--))
"In November 2009 newspaper articles spoke of the forthcoming UK general election as "the Mumsnet election",[6][7][8] in part because mothers were regarded by politicians as key floating voters and online forums were seen as arenas in which their votes could be courted.[9] The then prime minister[10][11] and the leader of the opposition [12][13] appeared on the website's webchats in quick succession, and this was widely reported. The site faced a barrage of publicity, not all of it favourable.[14][15] Others have been dismissive of the importance of the site to politicians, suggesting Mumsnet users comprise a relatively narrow demographic. Toby Young argued that the site is full of Guardian readers and "peopled exclusively by university-educated, upper-middle-class women who are only "swing voters" in the sense that they swing between voting Labour, Lib Dem and Green".[16]
Mumsnet has become a popular resource for journalists, and discussions on the message boards have been cited in the press. Users of the site have sometimes felt that reproduction of Mumsnet discussions in the press is unwelcome, and the Daily Mail's regular "This Week on Mumsnet" column generated controversy on the site in September 2009".[17]
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As resourceful as ever, thank you 8**8:/: It appears beeswax is commonly used as a lube for bullets. I'm wondering if SC used hand cream what effect, if any, this would have on the various debris associated with gun fire: bullet lube, GSR. I use the following as it comes in a pink tube 8**8:/: and its great for nails 8**8:/: but take a peep at all the ingredients. You need to click on the ingredients tab:
http://www.vaseline.co.uk/product/intensive-care/targeted-care/healthy-hands-stronge-nails.html (http://www.vaseline.co.uk/product/intensive-care/targeted-care/healthy-hands-stronge-nails.html)
I don't think Ron Cook would have noticed any hand-cream of whatever flavour. This is supposed to be rubbed in until absorbed, isn't that so?
You've been conned with that particular hand-cream too. There is no proof that keratin is absorbed through the skin and miraculously becomes new skin/nail tissue. Keratin is chemically assembled within the body from amino-acids, notably from the breakdown of gelatin. You would get more benefit from eating a packet of Hartley's jelly, or making some soup from the liquid of a boiled chicken carcass. You are what you eat!
Notice that two of the main ingredients are water and glycerine. My dad used to work outdoors in all weathers and every day in winter rubbed a smidgeon of glycerine into his hands until they were dry and non-greasy. They became as smooth as a baby's bottom. Save yourself some money and invest in a large bottle of plain old glycerin, and nota bene the dictum of Muggeridge below.
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Yes I can see your point especially given 30 years ago a jury were likely to be far more deferential to all concerned: middle class law abiding landowning rellies, trainee school teacher, police, expert witnesses, judiciary. Still think a.n.other QC could have drubbed the prosecution by attacking the forensics and pathological evidence. When I say forensics I mean the sort of stuff we discuss eg GSR, whether the rifle and ammo used were capable of producing the draw-back effect and pathological in terms of NB being too badly injured to enter into a "struggle".
It seems to me the prosecution pretty much trashed JB's character anyway. How much worse does it get when prosecution witnesses state he made disparaging (to put it mildly) comments re his family. Then break into the family firm fake a robbery and steal several hundred pounds. Was there an element of unknown parentage/"bad blood" amongst all concerned? Would it have made a difference had the jury have known JB's birth family were law abiding citizens?
All true. Bamber's character did go in because he had no choice but to attack Julie's. Nonetheless, it would have been very high risk to accuse Ann Eaton, say, of planting the silencer. In hindsight, since he lost, we can see he had nothing to lose but his advisers didn't have hindsight (and they very nearly got him off).
The forums you've mentioned you're a member of concern true crime/miscarriages of justice so maybe Mumsnet will make you into the rounded person you want to be 8)--))
"In November 2009 newspaper articles spoke of the forthcoming UK general election as "the Mumsnet election",[6][7][8] in part because mothers were regarded by politicians as key floating voters and online forums were seen as arenas in which their votes could be courted.[9] The then prime minister[10][11] and the leader of the opposition [12][13] appeared on the website's webchats in quick succession, and this was widely reported. The site faced a barrage of publicity, not all of it favourable.[14][15] Others have been dismissive of the importance of the site to politicians, suggesting Mumsnet users comprise a relatively narrow demographic. Toby Young argued that the site is full of Guardian readers and "peopled exclusively by university-educated, upper-middle-class women who are only "swing voters" in the sense that they swing between voting Labour, Lib Dem and Green".[16]
Mumsnet has become a popular resource for journalists, and discussions on the message boards have been cited in the press. Users of the site have sometimes felt that reproduction of Mumsnet discussions in the press is unwelcome, and the Daily Mail's regular "This Week on Mumsnet" column generated controversy on the site in September 2009".[17]
Well, maybe I should reconsider. ISF is not an injustice forum but a so-called 'skeptics' forum where I sometimes feel as much of an outsider as I would among the mums.
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Just noticed that Eley still use beeswax/tallow to coat certain types of .22 cartridge, so in '85 their subsonic hollow-points were probably coated with it as well. What the difference between the two lubricants is for, I've no idea.
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex (http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex)
Malcolm Fletcher was right after all when he said...
‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm. Pan Macmillan.
The end result though is that no deposits were found on Sheila's fingers, so she can't have handled any bullets, unless you believe she washed her hands before using the rifle on herself.
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Just noticed that Eley still use beeswax/tallow to coat certain types of .22 cartridge, so in '85 their subsonic hollow-points were probably coated with it as well. What the difference between the two lubricants is for, I've no idea.
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex (http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex)
Malcolm Fletcher was right after all when he said...
‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm. Pan Macmillan.
The end result though is that no deposits were found on Sheila's fingers, so she can't have handled any bullets, unless you believe she washed her hands before using the rifle on herself.
The bullets you have quoted above are not the ones used at WHF. The ones used:
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow
The description states "The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".
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Myster I thought you were aware of the bullets used?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4723.msg171331#msg171331
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5743.msg205664#msg205664
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=590.msg18003#msg18003
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CAL's books is the first time I've heard mention of grease and wax. SC's hands were only tested for lead. Perhaps MF is trying to justify JB's guilt to himself knowing the whole draw-back effect with a .22 rifle and subsonic ammo is a non-starter. Don't blame MF; blame the government/Home Office for lack of training. These guys and girls (Glynis Howard) should have been going on secondment to US to get the expertise needed to analyse a SoC like WHF.
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To Clarify, MF's assertion in CAL's book:
‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’
MF's document detailing the bullets used at WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659
". 22 rimfire [cant decipher word, looks like bulleted] cartridges
Lead bullet hollow point
Eley subsonic LR"
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow
"The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".
Do I believe in conspiracy theories? No. Do I believe in incompetent expert witnesses and unreliable prosecution witnesses? Yes.
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The only possible explanation to the above, other than MF was/is incompetent/lying, is that the manufacturer, Eley, changed their bullet lubricant for the Eley subsonic bullets during the last 30 years or so but this would not explain why the prosecution case didn't feature a lack of beeswax.
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I don't think Ron Cook would have noticed any hand-cream of whatever flavour. This is supposed to be rubbed in until absorbed, isn't that so?
You've been conned with that particular hand-cream too. There is no proof that keratin is absorbed through the skin and miraculously becomes new skin/nail tissue. Keratin is chemically assembled within the body from amino-acids, notably from the breakdown of gelatin. You would get more benefit from eating a packet of Hartley's jelly, or making some soup from the liquid of a boiled chicken carcass. You are what you eat!
Notice that two of the main ingredients are water and glycerine. My dad used to work outdoors in all weathers and every day in winter rubbed a smidgeon of glycerine into his hands until they were dry and non-greasy. They became as smooth as a baby's bottom. Save yourself some money and invest in a large bottle of plain old glycerin, and nota bene the dictum of Muggeridge below.
Yes hand cream is suppose to rub in but I think it leaves a film for a while and maybe a build up accumulates just below the surface which may or may not have had some sort of effect on the tests.
I agree many products are just marketing hype that's why I use the above as its pretty cheap and does the job. Plus the pink tube looks nice in my fave bag:
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Myster I thought you were aware of the bullets used?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4723.msg171331#msg171331 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4723.msg171331#msg171331)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5743.msg205664#msg205664 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5743.msg205664#msg205664)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=590.msg18003#msg18003 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=590.msg18003#msg18003)
Of course I'm aware of the type that was used, always have been. I was just pointing out that today's subsonic hollow-points use paraffin wax as lubricant whereas in '85 they might have been coated with beeswax/tallow instead, like 'Tenex' solid-ended bullets still are. Hence the reason why Fletcher mentioned beeswax which left a black deposit when handled, probably caused by lead dust becoming mixed with it.
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Yes hand cream is suppose to rub in but I think it leaves a film for a while and maybe a build up accumulates just below the surface which may or may not have had some sort of effect on the tests.
I agree many products are just marketing hype that's why I use the above as its pretty cheap and does the job. Plus the pink tube looks nice in my fave bag:
For a moment I thought I'd logged onto Mumsnet by mistake!
Nice bag though, but don't tell me what you keep in there Hols... I'm just having my lunch.
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Of course I'm aware of the type that was used, always have been. I was just pointing out that today's subsonic hollow-points use paraffin wax as lubricant whereas in '85 they might have been coated with beeswax/tallow instead, like 'Tenex' solid-ended bullets still are. Hence the reason why Fletcher mentioned beeswax which left a black deposit when handled, probably caused by lead dust becoming mixed with it.
If you care to take a peep at the following and look at the tech info and diagrams for the ammo produced by Eley it appears the use determines the lubricant?
http://www.eley.co.uk/ammunition?p=1
Page 1 shows all the ammo using beeswax/tallow with the exception of the ammo named Tenex Biathlon which uses biathlon lube.
The reason given for using beeswax/tallow lube is "Easy chambering". The reason given for using biathlon lube is "Easy chambering at low temperatures".
Page 2 shows all the ammo using paraffin wax and the reason given is "To reduce residues". Usage is for competitive semi-auto rifles and hunting/varmint shooters. These uses suggest multiple shots fired in very quick succession with rapid reloads and hence reducing residues would, I guess, be of interest to users. I've looked at all the other features (as I'm pretty sad and geeky 8)><() bullet profile, length, weight, velocity and energy and I cant see a connection with the lube.
There must be a reason the manufacturers use different lubes they are unlikely to just chuck on whatever they have hanging around.
I'm sure Eley will be willing and able to provide a definite answer.
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If you think about it, beeswax is slippier than paraffin wax. Polish furniture with the former and you get a smooth slidy finish, but with the latter just a waxy mess. So beeswax should be more suitable for multi-round magazines such as the Anschutz. Don't know why Eley changed lubricant for hollow-points unless paraffin wax is substantially cheaper to cut manufacturing costs.
Beeswax might retain a lot more lead dust than paraffin wax and this would have a detrimental (poisonous) effect on meat if killed prey such as rabbits were eaten. HP's are used for varmint, whereas Tenex and other beeswax-coated ammo for target shooting where lead contamination doesn't matter.
You're the one who likes firing of e-mails willy-nilly, Holly... so be my guest.
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If you think about it, beeswax is slippier than paraffin wax. Polish furniture with the former and you get a smooth slidy finish, but with the latter just a waxy mess. So beeswax should be more suitable for multi-round magazines such as the Anschutz. Don't know why Eley changed lubricant for hollow-points unless paraffin wax is substantially cheaper to cut manufacturing costs.
Beeswax might retain a lot more lead dust than paraffin wax and this would have a detrimental (poisonous) effect on meat if killed prey such as rabbits were eaten. HP's are used for varmint, whereas Tenex and other beeswax-coated ammo for target shooting where lead contamination doesn't matter.
You're the one who likes firing of e-mails willy-nilly, Holly... so be my guest.
The tech info and diagram for the subsonic hollow-point states: "Firm hydrocarbon lubricant" so perhaps not a "waxy mess":
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow
How do we know Eley have changed lubricant on the subsonic hollow-point? They may have always manufactured them using paraffin wax and MF was/is mistaken for whatever reason(s). As I said if beeswax was in abundance as described in his interview with CAL then why did the investigating officers and prosecution not pick up on this? Moreover why did he not he pick up on it at the time? One of the appeal points at the CoA hearing 2002 relates to the hand swabs and this was in connection with lead no mention of beeswax.
I have sent an email to Eley asking simply if paraffin wax has always been used in the manufacturing of the subsonic hollow-point ammunition and if not are they able to identify what was used with the relevant manufacturing dates.
I also phoned Radcliffe in Colchester and the guy didn't have any idea what I was talking about. Said its the first time he has been asked the question. I said you always get one!
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http://www.nioa.com.au/products/list/view/ELSH
"The Subsonic product has been developed with a non-greasy special lubricant (minimum dry lube) for more dependable operation in semi automatics and improved functioning in all weather conditions".
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I also phoned Radcliffe in Colchester and the guy didn't have any idea what I was talking about. Said its the first time he has been asked the question. I said you always get one!
Neither do I... ever since you first joined! &%+((£
That's what someone said to me after the first course at a dinner party when I asked if it would be OK to lick my plate. 8(8-))
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http://www.nioa.com.au/products/list/view/ELSH (http://www.nioa.com.au/products/list/view/ELSH)
"The Subsonic product has been developed with a non-greasy special lubricant (minimum dry lube) for more dependable operation in semi automatics and improved functioning in all weather conditions".
It's only simple paraffin wax, the same stuff that candles are made out of, and if you've ever tried polishing a table with one instead of beeswax you'll know how inferior it is. Hence the reason why beeswax is preferred for cartridges (such as Eley Tenex, Match and Edge) used in competition target shooting as it's less likely to make them jam up magazines and firing mechanisms. When shooting rabbits and vermin only a single shot is normally fired at one target before the rest scatter, so Eley hollow-points don't need such efficient lubrication. That's my take on it, anyway.
From what I've read I think that beeswax gives off a different odour than paraffin wax when burning, so unlikely to be mistaken by a firearms expert.
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The prosecution case against JB at trial included a lack of gunshot residue on SC's hands. This also featured at JB's 2002 CoA hearing insofar as the defence claimed the correct procedures were not followed for evidence gathering and handling.
Perhaps a lack of gunshot residue can be explained by forensics?
"A rifle or shotgun may not deposit GSR on hands, but more likely in the crook of the support arm". (Dalby et al, 2010)
"A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported". (Dalby et al, 2010)
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
The absence of GSR does not indicate innocence.
"There are factors that contribute to particulate loss that must also be taken into consideration. For instance, suppose a firearm is discharged in a static environment (no wind or airflow). Hand samples are then collected immediately after the discharge on clean, dry hands. It would not be unusual to detect hundreds to thousands of GSR particles on these samples. Alternately, suppose a firearm was discharged outside during a windy day with inclement weather. Samples are collected several hours after the discharge, giving the subjects ample time to move, shake off, wipe, or wash their hands. In this instance, it might not be possible to find any GSR particles on the samples. This absence of gunshot residue is not an indication that the subject is innocent of discharging a firearm. All factors concerning particulate loss must be taken into account when determining if results are consistent with the aspects of a specific scenario".
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/09/science-behind-gsr-separating-fact-fiction
DI Cook moved SC's hand. Trial transcript:
Q: It would appear that the hand and arm have been moved who was responsible for that? A: I was sir.
Q: For what purpose? A: To demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=168.0;attach=297
Ok, Holl. What are you saying? That Ralph was too injured to make a phone call, or that he wasn't worried enough even though his "mad" daughter had a loaded gun? You can't have it both ways. At what stage did Ralph call Bamber? And why did Bamber dick about, trawling through the phone book, when Ralph said "come quick, your sister's gone crazy with the gun." ?
Bamber is where he is, because he should be. He's a bad, selfish loony.
He hasn't got a good bone in his body, and he killed two lovely boys.
I hope he rots in hell.
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Ok, Holl. What are you saying? That Ralph was too injured to make a phone call, or that he wasn't worried enough even though his "mad" daughter had a loaded gun? You can't have it both ways. At what stage did Ralph call Bamber? And why did Bamber dick about, trawling through the phone book, when Ralph said "come quick, your sister's gone crazy with the gun." ?
Bamber is where he is, because he should be. He's a bad, selfish loony.
He hasn't got a good bone in his body, and he killed two lovely boys.
I hope he rots in hell.
The above has nothing to do with the thread. If I respond here I will probably get told off for going off topic. I'll find an existing thread or create a new one and catch ya there...
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Had an email response from Eley, which I'll upload later, confirming paraffin wax has always been used on the Eley subsonic.
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It's only simple paraffin wax, the same stuff that candles are made out of, and if you've ever tried polishing a table with one instead of beeswax you'll know how inferior it is. Hence the reason why beeswax is preferred for cartridges (such as Eley Tenex, Match and Edge) used in competition target shooting as it's less likely to make them jam up magazines and firing mechanisms. When shooting rabbits and vermin only a single shot is normally fired at one target before the rest scatter, so Eley hollow-points don't need such efficient lubrication. That's my take on it, anyway.
From what I've read I think that beeswax gives off a different odour than paraffin wax when burning, so unlikely to be mistaken by a firearms expert.
Mr Sheen polishes my wood.
The Eley subsonic with the parrafin wax was designed for all weathers and the lube is badged up as 'firm hydrocarbon lubricant' Varmint shooters will be outside in all weathers exposing rifle, mag and ammo to the elements.
Vermin will not hear the subsonic bullets before they're hit? If shooters were only able to take out one before the rest scatter far and wide, surely there would be no point bothering?
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To Clarify, MF's assertion in CAL's book:
‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’
MF's document detailing the bullets used at WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659
". 22 rimfire [cant decipher word, looks like bulleted] cartridges
Lead bullet hollow point
Eley subsonic LR"
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow
"The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".
Do I believe in conspiracy theories? No. Do I believe in incompetent expert witnesses and unreliable prosecution witnesses? Yes.
Given that Eley has confirmed paraffin wax has always been used in the manufacturing of the Eley subsonic cartridges used in the tragedy at WHF I have concerns about MF's credibility as an expert witness. Was he simply mistaken or what? His input to CAL's book makes no sense at all. Was he going from memory and got muddled or did he actually compile his reports at the time using this info? Worse still were the jury told incorrectly about an abundance of beeswax?!
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Mr Sheen polishes my wood.
The Eley subsonic with the parrafin wax was designed for all weathers and the lube is badged up as 'firm hydrocarbon lubricant' Varmint shooters will be outside in all weathers exposing rifle, mag and ammo to the elements.
Vermin will not hear the subsonic bullets before they're hit? If shooters were only able to take out one before the rest scatter far and wide, surely there would be no point bothering?
Used to say of motorcyclist Barry Sheene - "Mr Sheene shines on all surfaces!"
Suppose it's because paraffin wax is more water-repellent than beeswax, so resists rain, dampness and humidity better.
I was talking about rabbits or other small mammals/birds which are found together in a group - once the first shot hits a single target in the group then the others scatter, through fright, not (just) because of the noise of a rifle's explosive crack. This shooter is aiming at isolated rabbits where that doesn't apply...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWEwvVg1Zdk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWEwvVg1Zdk)
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Given that Eley has confirmed paraffin wax has always been used in the manufacturing of the Eley subsonic cartridges used in the tragedy at WHF I have concerns about MF's credibility as an expert witness. Was he simply mistaken or what? His input to CAL's book makes no sense at all. Was he going from memory and got muddled or did he actually compile his reports at the time using this info? Worse still were the jury told incorrectly about an abundance of beeswax?!
Obviously mistaken, unless it was a rogue batch of ammo. I doubt whether they went into so much detail at trial as to the type and effects of bullet lubricant.
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Obviously mistaken, unless it was a rogue batch of ammo. I doubt whether they went into so much detail at trial as to the type and effects of bullet lubricant.
CAL's book is the first time I've heard beeswax mentioned. If the jury were told the following and it's incorrect then that's quite serious:
"The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible."
It really calls into question MF's credibility as an expert witness and whether his testimony regarding the main plank of the prosecutions case against JB namely the draw-back effect was reliable. As I said I wouldn't blame him per se. He was simply an employee of a poorly managed government run forensic science lab. If you refer back to Wilkes he makes ref to the fact that a government team were sent to FSS Huntingdon post WHF to sort out all the shortcomings.
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Had an email response from Eley, which I'll upload later, confirming paraffin wax has always been used on the Eley subsonic.
Here it is. I've removed my details as it contained a work email address.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Here it is. I've removed my details as it contained a work email address.
So we have the following from CAL/MF:
"The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible."
And this from Eley, the manufactueres:
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow
Overview
The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".
Technical Information
"Firm hydrocarbon lubricant to reduce residues"
Specifications:
Lubricant:
Parrafin Wax
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This shooter shows the latest Eley hollow-points are coated with a thin layer of paraffin wax...
https://youtu.be/fF4nvNWxqPo?t=1m42s (https://youtu.be/fF4nvNWxqPo?t=1m42s)
... but there's a different variety of Eley subsonic hollow-point called - Xtra Plus, which has a "special" lubricant for use in semi-autos. Maybe this was/is beeswax? Although it isn't shown in their latest catalogue, so maybe not produced any more.
http://www.shoot.ie/ammunition-1/eley-22-sub-sonic-hollow-xtra-plus.html (http://www.shoot.ie/ammunition-1/eley-22-sub-sonic-hollow-xtra-plus.html)
Could the Eley tech department be mistaken and there were some batches of beeswax-coated cartridges produced in the mid '80's, say as a trial run?
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This shooter shows the latest Eley hollow-points are coated with a thin layer of paraffin wax...
https://youtu.be/fF4nvNWxqPo?t=1m42s (https://youtu.be/fF4nvNWxqPo?t=1m42s)
... but there's a different variety of Eley subsonic hollow-point called - Xtra Plus, which has a "special" lubricant for use in semi-autos. Maybe this was/is beeswax? Although it isn't shown in their latest catalogue, so maybe not produced any more.
http://www.shoot.ie/ammunition-1/eley-22-sub-sonic-hollow-xtra-plus.html (http://www.shoot.ie/ammunition-1/eley-22-sub-sonic-hollow-xtra-plus.html)
Could the Eley tech department be mistaken and there were some batches of beeswax-coated cartridges produced in the mid '80's, say as a trial run?
MF makes no reference to xtra plus:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659
Perhaps MF was/is mistaken and/or incompetent. Eley products are based on accuracy so it stands to reason this will flow through to other aspects of the business ie marketing? The person who sent the email is associate chartered institute of marketing and sounds quite reliable. They only currently market 13 products so given the limited product range you might expect the staff to be familiar with all aspects of the complete range.
From CoA re hand swabs. No mention of beeswax.
228. The reason why the judge approached the matter in this way becomes apparent when the evidence of Mr Fletcher, the prosecution's firearms expert is considered. Mr Fletcher gave the jury a demonstration of loading the magazine with the bullets. He commented that in his experience loading a full magazine would leave marks on the hands adding "in this case you get a black discolouration". (Transcript PMS/10 page 18B). When he was cross-examined by Mr Lawson, junior counsel for the appellant at trial, he was asked about this part of his evidence and said (Transcript PMS/10 page 47H):
"Well they are my own observations, and I think the observations of the court yesterday when the demonstration was made, that by loading cartridges into the magazine you get residues on your hands from the bullets and cartridges."
"230. We should perhaps point out that quite apart from Mr Fletcher's evidence, the matters were also apparent in the notes that he made of the experimental loading of cartridges. He had noted after the first loading "some lead specks and frags and some discolouration"; after the second "Further specks and frags and darker discolouration"; and after the third "quite a few specks and fragments of lead and grey/black discolouration". (See memorandum of Dr Lloyd dated 14 October 2002). As Dr Lloyd points out it may have been an assumption that the particles were lead, but the fact that the hands became dirty was noted on that occasion as well".
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I cant see anywhere in the CoA doc where the actual bullets used are identified.
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I cant see anywhere in the CoA doc where the actual bullets used are identified.
Better ring Radcliffes to see which type of bullets they sold to the Bambers along with the Anschutz in '84.
On second thoughts, maybe not as they'll probably think it's that barmy woman again.
I've seen a receipt somewhere online, but can't remember if the ammo was specified.
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Better ring Radcliffes to see which type of bullets they sold to the Bambers along with the Anschutz in '84.
On second thoughts, maybe not as they'll probably think it's that barmy woman again.
I've seen a receipt somewhere online, but can't remember if the ammo was specified.
I thought I had seen something somewhere but maybe not &%+((£. The following just details the rifle, sights and silencer.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673
I find the CoA doc frightening: 3 appeal court judges, MF supposedly a ballistics expert acting for the prosecution and Dr Lloyd for the defence and yet they have been unable to:
- identify the bullets used
- identify the materials used
The whole thing is madness.
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I confess I've never taken much notice/interest in the hand swabs as I thought it was all about whether the swabs were handled and labelled correctly which is difficult to prove one way or the other but I can see there's more to it than this!!!!
From CoA:
177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.
FFS "similar"? So not an exact comparison on a like-for-like basis 8()(((@#. What planet are these people on? The tech spec from Eley for the subsonic cartridges makes it clear they are designed to leave a minimum of residue, if any.
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Had Sheila reloaded the rifle several times her fingers would have been contaminated with bullet lubricant in addition to the gun shot residue. Firing off 22 rounds in such a short time should also have left tell-tale marks on her fingers. If I recall correctly, there were no such marks or deposits on any of her fingers.
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Had Sheila reloaded the rifle several times her fingers would have been contaminated with bullet lubricant in addition to the gun shot residue. Firing off 22 rounds in such a short time should also have left tell-tale marks on her fingers. If I recall correctly, there were no such marks or deposits on any of her fingers.
It appears there are two issues: lack of bullet lubricant/lead from handling the bullets and lack of gun shot residue (gsr) from firing the rifle.
Lack of bullet lubricant/lead
The bullets used were made by Eley (subsonic). I have confirmed with Eley by email that the subsonic bullets have always been manufactured using paraffin wax as a bullet lubricant. On Eley's website they describe the lubricant as "Firm hydrocarbon to reduce residues" and "The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".
It appears from the CoA document that when the scientist assessed SC's hand swabs he used a "similar" bullet and not the actual bullets used at WHF namely Eley subsonic. Obviously this may well have skewed the results. There's no point in saying the test results show appreciably higher lead deposits than SC's swabs if the bullets used were different. How similar is similar? Why not use the exact same bullets?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg274447#msg274447
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg274824#msg274824
Lack of gun shot residue
It seems a lack of gsr does not indicate innocence and could be explained by the following:
- The particles start to quickly disappear after 3 hours (SC may have been dead for some 6 hours or longer before the hand swabs were taken).
- If the perp moves the particles can disappear (It is claimed EP moved SC. DI Cook moved her hand for sure).
- If the perp is in a draughty environment the particles can disappear (SC was near the open window in the main bedroom).
- If the perp uses a rifle or shotgun the gsr is more likely to fall in the crook of the arm than on the hands
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg272805#msg272805
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Having handled many different types of firearms Holly it is very difficult to explain how someone who supposedly fired a rifle 22 times and reloaded it would not have visible contaminants on their hands. That is the hurdle you have to overcome in order to prove that Sheila did it.
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Having handled many different types of firearms Holly it is very difficult to explain how someone who supposedly fired a rifle 22 times and reloaded it would not have visible contaminants on their hands. That is the hurdle you have to overcome in order to prove that Sheila did it.
The info the jury were given is quite possibly wrong based on the fact the scientist, Brian Elliot, used "similar" bullets in his experiment. He asked two members of staff at FSS to load 18 "similar" bullets into a magazine and then observed "appreciably" higher lead deposits than SC's hand swabs. How can anything be drawn from this? The bullets used at WHF and manufactured by Eley were designed specifically to "reduce residues" and are described as having a "non greasy" lubricant. I'm reading the relevant sections in the CoA document and its quite unbelievable. Lots of 'experts' involved for the prosecution and defence and yet they have been unable to identify the materials used in the bullets at WHF. Surely the most straight-forward, reliable and cost effective way would have been to go to the manufacturers and ask the technical director or equivalent to provide a report. No mention of Eley at all.
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The info the jury were given is quite possibly wrong based on the fact the scientist, Brian Elliot, used "similar" bullets in his experiment. He asked two members of staff at FSS to load 18 "similar" bullets into a magazine and then observed "appreciably" higher lead deposits than SC's hand swabs. How can anything be drawn from this? The bullets used at WHF and manufactured by Eley were designed specifically to "reduce residues" and are described as having a "non greasy" lubricant. I'm reading the relevant sections in the CoA document and its quite unbelievable. Lots of 'experts' involved for the prosecution and defence and yet they have been unable to identify the materials used in the bullets at WHF. Surely the most straight-forward, reliable and cost effective way would have been to go to the manufacturers and ask the technical director or equivalent to provide a report. No mention of Eley at all.
I accept what you say however, unless the rifle was spotlessly clean prior to Sheila picking it up then there could be gsr and lubricants all over it from previous use. That in turn is transferred and reflected as stains and black marks on any new users hands and fingers. It is virtually impossible not to get stains on you hands if you fire a weapon several times which has been previously fired by someone else.
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I accept what you say however, unless the rifle was spotlessly clean prior to Sheila picking it up then there could be gsr and lubricants all over it from previous use. That in turn is transferred and reflected as stains and black marks on any new users hands and fingers. It is virtually impossible not to get stains on you hands if you fire a weapon several times which has been previously fired by someone else.
According to the CoA doc NB cleaned his guns after use:
12. Ralph Nevill Bamber, (who was known as Nevill Bamber and we shall refer to him in that way) was 61 at the time of his death. He was a farmer and a local Magistrate and lived with his wife June at White House Farm. He was a well-built man, 6' 4" tall and in good physical health. Those who knew him spoke of him as a good and fair man. He kept a number of guns including shotguns and the rifle, which was to feature in the killings, at the farm. He shot on his own farm as well as attending shoots locally. A number of witnesses called at the trial spoke of the care with which Nevill Bamber treated the weapons kept at the farmhouse. He would clean the guns following use and would not allow them to be left lying around.
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According to the CoA doc NB cleaned his guns after use:
12. Ralph Nevill Bamber, (who was known as Nevill Bamber and we shall refer to him in that way) was 61 at the time of his death. He was a farmer and a local Magistrate and lived with his wife June at White House Farm. He was a well-built man, 6' 4" tall and in good physical health. Those who knew him spoke of him as a good and fair man. He kept a number of guns including shotguns and the rifle, which was to feature in the killings, at the farm. He shot on his own farm as well as attending shoots locally. A number of witnesses called at the trial spoke of the care with which Nevill Bamber treated the weapons kept at the farmhouse. He would clean the guns following use and would not allow them to be left lying around.
I accept that Holly but the .22 Anschütz was Jeremy's gun surely, is there any evidence he cleaned it after use, he certainly left it lying around according to his own evidence?
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I accept that Holly but the .22 Anschütz was Jeremy's gun surely, is there any evidence he cleaned it after use, he certainly left it lying around according to his own evidence?
As far as I'm aware JB did not legally own any guns. A WS from Robert Radcliffe shows he sold the rifle and silencer to R N Bamber via his gun shop:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673
I have no idea whether JB cleaned guns after use. I don't believe he fired any shots on 6th so I guess no need to clean then.
An interesting quote from CAL P137, source WS of RB: Following an OCP meeting on 18th July 1985 PB and RB returned to WHF with June and NB for coffee. RB asked to see the new den off the scullery:
"Nevill took him through, stopping to pick up a rifle and some ammunition from the settle".
I have never understood this argument that JB set the scene leaving the rifle and ammo out. Perhaps if the guns were kept in a locked cupboard but they weren't so if SC or anyone was of a mind to take a firearm and ammo they could do so. SC would be fully ofay with where the firearms and ammo were kept. Intruders would know there was a very strong possibility of firearms on the premises and a quick search would easily locate. I'm not suggesting a third party was involved just making the point that firearms were accessible to anyone who wanted to use one.
An analogy might be JB took some ham from the fridge placed it on a cutting board, cut a slice using a sharp knife, made a sandwich, returned the ham to the fridge and left the knife on the cutting board. Later someone attempts to stab someone in WHF with the knife and JB is blamed for setting the scene and not putting the knife in the dishwasher as June would normally do. Anyone, legitimate occupants or intruders, would know where to look for a kitchen knife. To the Bamber family having firearms hanging around was no more odd than any of us having sharp knives in drawers or left on kitchen work tops.
I know it is law now that gun owners must keep firearms in a locked cabinet. Does anyone know what the law was back in '85? Is this perhaps one reason NB was reluctant to involve the police if things were not as they should have been? Especially given the psychiatric histories of June and SC. More so SC who had talked with a number of people about suicide.
OMG I have gone off topic...
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FAO Myster:
As far as I am concerned it has been confirmed to my satisfaction that it is was paraffin wax and not beeswax used to lubricate the Eley subsonic bullets. I have since fired off another email to Eley asking them to clarify whether the handling of the bullets results in lead deposits and black discolouration. I think some depositing of lead would be expected as it states on the box that users should wash their hands after handling due to lead.
I have for the first time read the CoA doc re the hand swabs and alarm bells are ringing:
177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.
215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.
So it appears from the above that Mr Elliot carried out tests using "similar" cartridges but at trial told the jury his tests were based on ammunition from the "same" source as that used in the killings.
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As far as I'm aware JB did not legally own any guns. A WS from Robert Radcliffe shows he sold the rifle and silencer to R N Bamber via his gun shop:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673
I have no idea whether JB cleaned guns after use. I don't believe he fired any shots on 6th so I guess no need to clean then.
An interesting quote from CAL P137, source WS of RB: Following an OCP meeting on 18th July 1985 PB and RB returned to WHF with June and NB for coffee. RB asked to see the new den off the scullery:
"Nevill took him through, stopping to pick up a rifle and some ammunition from the settle".
I have never understood this argument that JB set the scene leaving the rifle and ammo out. Perhaps if the guns were kept in a locked cupboard but they weren't so if SC or anyone was of a mind to take a firearm and ammo they could do so. SC would be fully ofay with where the firearms and ammo were kept. Intruders would know there was a very strong possibility of firearms on the premises and a quick search would easily locate. I'm not suggesting a third party was involved just making the point that firearms were accessible to anyone who wanted to use one.
An analogy might be JB took some ham from the fridge placed it on a cutting board, cut a slice using a sharp knife, made a sandwich, returned the ham to the fridge and left the knife on the cutting board. Later someone attempts to stab someone in WHF with the knife and JB is blamed for setting the scene and not putting the knife in the dishwasher as June would normally do. Anyone, legitimate occupants or intruders, would know where to look for a kitchen knife. To the Bamber family having firearms hanging around was no more odd than any of us having sharp knives in drawers or left on kitchen work tops.
I know it is law now that gun owners must keep firearms in a locked cabinet. Does anyone know what the law was back in '85? Is this perhaps one reason NB was reluctant to involve the police if things were not as they should have been? Especially given the psychiatric histories of June and SC. More so SC who had talked with a number of people about suicide.
OMG I have gone off topic...
Seriously, Holl, you've never understood why JB left a loaded gun out? Bearing in mind that Ralph and/or June would have been horrified? And sorted it out?
How else would Sheila, totally uninterested and "ofay" with guns , have been able to use the gun so competently? The gun had to be loaded.
THAT was Bamber's let-out clause. A loaded gun, left out, ignored by Ralph, just waiting for the boys to play with.
And just waiting for Sheila to go "crazy" with it. Except that....Sheila didn't know how to load the magazine.
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With the best will in the world, Holl, the ham anology is total bollox.
Why did he call Julie BEFORE he called the police?
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Seriously, Holl, you've never understood why JB left a loaded gun out? Bearing in mind that Ralph and/or June would have been horrified? And sorted it out?
According to RB's WS (see above) he and PB returned to WHF with June and NB for coffee after an OCP meeting on 18th July. RB asked NB to show him the new den, as they walked towards it NB picked up a rifle and ammo from the settle I assume to return to the den/gun cupboard. There was nothing about being horrified.
How else would Sheila, totally uninterested and "ofay" with guns , have been able to use the gun so competently? The gun had to be loaded.
I don't think its necessary to be "interested" in a piece of equipment to use it. I didn't say SC was "ofay" with guns I said she would be ofay with where it was kept. There was no particular skill involved with the tragedy at WHF. All shots were close range. The furthest was a little over 3'. Closer than the plastic ducks I remember shooting at fairs as a child. Why did the rifle have to be loaded? JB claims he removed the bullet from the breech and the magazine from the rifle. The full magazine was left near the rifle.
THAT was Bamber's let-out clause. A loaded gun, left out, ignored by Ralph, just waiting for the boys to play with.
The rifle wasn't loaded according to JB's WS. How do you know NB ignored the rifle? He may well have returned it to its rightful place and imo probably did assuming JB left it where he says he did. NB seemed to be a creature of habit where he had a routine of letting the dogs out before bed so I'm sure if the rifle and mag were by the settle he would simply have picked them up and returned them to the den/gun cupboard as he did above.
And just waiting for Sheila to go "crazy" with it. Except that....Sheila didn't know how to load the magazine.
How do we know it was waiting for Sheila to go "crazy" with it? If SC was the perp there was nothing to stop her going to the den/gun cupboard? How do you know SC didn't know how to load the magazine?
I've always said a test should have been set up with say a dozen novices and an experienced handler of firearms. Let the novices observe the experienced handler prepare the rifle for fire without any verbal instructions and see how many times they have to observe before they can accomplish. If the majority have to observe the experienced handler many times before they can accomplish then yes this would call into question whether SC had the ability to prepare the rifle for fire. If most of the novices were able to accomplish after 2 or 3 observations then it could be argued it was an easy straight-forward action to observe and copy and that SC growing up on a farm where firearms were an everyday occurrence would have the necessary wherewithal to prepare the rifle for fire.
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With the best will in the world, Holl, the ham anology is total bollox.
Why is it total bollox?
Why did he call Julie BEFORE he called the police?
I'm inclined to see JB calling JM BEFORE EP to see what she thought he should do. JB said in his initial WS's NB phoned and said "Shelias gone crazy shes got the gun". Nothing about please come over. JB said the phone went dead and he tried to call back and got the engaged tone. What was JB to think? Why is dad calling me? Does he want me to go over? If so what does he want me to do? Does he want me to call the police? Etc, etc In JM's WS of 8th Aug she states she had a good friendly relationship with all the family and was better able to communicate with SC than JB was (probably understandable as she was training to be a school teacher ie should have good inter-personal skills/communication skills etc). JB was aware NB had a low regard for EP and liked to keep family affairs private.
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Why is it total bollox?
I'm inclined to see JB calling JM BEFORE EP to see what she thought he should do. JB said in his initial WS's NB phoned and said "Shelias gone crazy shes got the gun". Nothing about please come over. JB said the phone went dead and he tried to call back and got the engaged tone. What was JB to think? Why is dad calling me? Does he want me to go over? If so what does he want me to do? Does he want me to call the police? Etc, etc In JM's WS of 8th Aug she states she had a good friendly relationship with all the family and was better able to communicate with SC than JB was (probably understandable as she was training to be a school teacher ie should have good inter-personal skills/communication skills etc). JB was aware NB had a low regard for EP and liked to keep family affairs private.
You actually believe this? I suppose you have to in order to sustain your view of his innocence but I think you should stand back and look at it. It was 3 in the morning. Sheila's gone crazy with a gun, the phone goes dead suddenly and he can't get through again. Why on earth would he waste valuable time waking Julie up to ask what she thought he should do? How many reasonable options did he have to weigh? Call the police, go back to bed, head over there himself. That's it. Why would she know better than him which of these to take? Why would he think she knew better?
Once he decided to call the police, he had two more options - faff around looking up numbers of probably-closed or unmanned police stations, or call 999. Maybe he should have called Julie back to ask for help on that one too ...
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You actually believe this? I suppose you have to in order to sustain your view of his innocence but I think you should stand back and look at it. It was 3 in the morning. Sheila's gone crazy with a gun, the phone goes dead suddenly and he can't get through again. Why on earth would he waste valuable time waking Julie up to ask what she thought he should do? How many reasonable options did he have to weigh? Call the police, go back to bed, head over there himself. That's it. Why would she know better than him which of these to take? Why would he think she knew better?
Once he decided to call the police, he had two more options - faff around looking up numbers of probably-closed or unmanned police stations, or call 999. Maybe he should have called Julie back to ask for help on that one too ...
Prove me wrong. ?>)()<
So lets run with your scenario of a guilty JB and a complicit JM. The plan is months in the making with the pair bouncing (instead of bonking as most young couples do) ideas off each other. If as you say the phone call from NB to JB and his actions thereafter are too incredulous surely the pair would come up with a scenario that might have appeared more convincing. Eg JB commits the murders, as alleged by the prosecution, calls Bourtree before leaving WHF and cycles like the clappers back to Goldhanger. Back at GH he changes and drives back to WHF. Loiters around for a few minutes, see below, then trots off down the lane to the call box, or knocks the Foakes up, and calls 999 ambulance saying his father called saying his sister had gone crazy with a gun, he got dressed and raced over, upon arrival the dogs were barking and his father didn't appear which he thought was unusual, looks through all the ground floor windows and sees his father slumped in his chair with his head toppled forward looks like he might be injured or even shot. The pair could decide whether or not to include JM in the phone calls.
No I remain utterly convinced JB is the victim of a terrible MoJ and JM's hand was forced by EP. And there's no doubt in my mind I will eventually be proved right based on modern forensic science.
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You actually believe this? I suppose you have to in order to sustain your view of his innocence but I think you should stand back and look at it. It was 3 in the morning. Sheila's gone crazy with a gun, the phone goes dead suddenly and he can't get through again. Why on earth would he waste valuable time waking Julie up to ask what she thought he should do? How many reasonable options did he have to weigh? Call the police, go back to bed, head over there himself. That's it. Why would she know better than him which of these to take? Why would he think she knew better?
Once he decided to call the police, he had two more options - faff around looking up numbers of probably-closed or unmanned police stations, or call 999. Maybe he should have called Julie back to ask for help on that one too ...
PS when I first saw your reply on this thread I thought perhaps you wanted to comment on the fact it appears the jury were given misleading info at trial regarding SC's hand swabs.
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Prove me wrong. ?>)()<
So lets run with your scenario of a guilty JB and a complicit JM. The plan is months in the making with the pair bouncing (instead of bonking as most young couples do) ideas off each other. If as you say the phone call from NB to JB and his actions thereafter are too incredulous surely the pair would come up with a scenario that might have appeared more convincing. Eg JB commits the murders, as alleged by the prosecution, calls Bourtree before leaving WHF and cycles like the clappers back to Goldhanger. Back at GH he changes and drives back to WHF. Loiters around for a few minutes, see below, then trots off down the lane to the call box, or knocks the Foakes up, and calls 999 ambulance saying his father called saying his sister had gone crazy with a gun, he got dressed and raced over, upon arrival the dogs were barking and his father didn't appear which he thought was unusual, looks through all the ground floor windows and sees his father slumped in his chair with his head toppled forward looks like he might be injured or even shot. The pair could decide whether or not to include JM in the phone calls.
No I remain utterly convinced JB is the victim of a terrible MoJ and JM's hand was forced by EP. And there's no doubt in my mind I will eventually be proved right based on modern forensic science.
In your plan he arrives first at the scene. Its better if the police get there first to rule out any possibility that Bamber might have fiddled with anything. That's the whole basis of his plan - that he was at home in bed when it happened.
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PS when I first saw your reply on this thread I thought perhaps you wanted to comment on the fact it appears the jury were given misleading info at trial regarding SC's hand swabs.
Happy to do so , HG. That point was covered in detail in the 2002 appeal (with which I know you are familiar) and the judges said:
We have not the slightest doubt that the only failing by the police revealed in their dealings with the swabs are some relatively minor form completing mistakes by DS Davidson. On these relatively minor failings the whole edifice of a conspiracy theory was constructed and unsurprisingly when tested it came crashing down.
I would be fascinated to know on what ground you differ from the court. I have to say, though, I don't find this an especially interesting part of the case.
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In your plan he arrives first at the scene. Its better if the police get there first to rule out any possibility that Bamber might have fiddled with anything. That's the whole basis of his plan - that he was at home in bed when it happened.
Hmmm some plan when tomorrow he will be celebrating his 30th anniversary behind bars!
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Happy to do so , HG. That point was covered in detail in the 2002 appeal (with which I know you are familiar) and the judges said:
And this is what judges said about other high profile MOJ's before they were quashed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3394.msg129016#msg129016
Happy to do so , HG. That point was covered in detail in the 2002 appeal (with which I know you are familiar)
I would be fascinated to know on what ground you differ from the court. I have to say, though, I don't find this an especially interesting part of the case.
Please be fascinated and read the thread. Much of the case is boring and tedious but that's the nature of the beast with the devil in the detail.
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Hmmm some plan when tomorrow he will be celebrating his 30th anniversary behind bars!
Can we have a party?
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Hmmm some plan when tomorrow he will be celebrating his 30th anniversary behind bars!
Yes, I know. Shame, really. The other cases of meticulously planned murders I'm familiar with are Scott Peterson anc Jodi Arias. They also featured what might seem in hindsight to have been obvious howlers but Peterson nearly got away with it and but for some bad luck (a gun that jammed) so might Arias. And even with all the world against him, Bamber nearly made it. So his was a clever plan with Julie as its weak point.
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And this is what judges said about other high profile MOJ's before they were quashed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3394.msg129016#msg129016
Please be fascinated and read the thread. Much of the case is boring and tedious but that's the nature of the beast with the devil in the detail.
I have been reading on and off. You want to know the exact make of the bullets and you have some thoughts about GSR. That's it, isn't it? Well, as GSR evidence is not front and centre of my belief in his guilt, I can afford to skim this bit.
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Can we have a party?
@)(++(* Impeccable timing as always... matey! http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/)
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@)(++(* Impeccable timing as always... matey! http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/)
Oh dear, as trite and as badly written as ever - about as impressive as the fairycake bakeathon that nearly happened.
(I wonder how often Ralph called him "Matey" after the caravan park robbery?)
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Can we have a party?
I knew as soon as I hit send I was in for drubbing on that one @)(++(*
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I like the spider web of lies cake:
http://websta.me/n/jeremybamber
*&*%£
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I like the spider web of lies cake:
http://websta.me/n/jeremybamber
*&*%£
"And here is Spotty, a Bake-Off supporter's Jack Russell, just back from the vet's after having her stomach pumped."
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"And here is Spotty, a Bake-Off supporter's Jack Russell, just back from the vet's after having her stomach pumped."
That patterned throw is enough to cause man or beast needing their stomach pumped 8)><(
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Report them to the RSPCA.
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I visited a local gun shop earlier today to check out the Eley bullets. I was unable to purchase them as I don't have a firearms cert but the very nice man in the shop opened a new box for me and allowed me to handle them and load them in a magazine. I offered to pay for them but he said it was fine as they use them all the time for test firing. This is what I discovered:
- The bullet head which is dark grey has a clear wax coating. However this only came off when I rubbed the bullet quite firmly between my thumb and index finger.
- When I rubbed the copper coloured end nothing came off. Probably as it didn't appear to be coated with anything.
- Nothing came off when I loaded the bullets into the magazine from the head or the copper coloured end. The bullets are loaded by pushing on the copper end.
- Certainly no discolouration of any description.
- Loading the bullets in a mag was simply child's play. There was nothing remotely complicated. And I didn't break my nails!
The above completely contradicts with what MF told the jury.
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Were they Eley subsonic hollow-points, and not round-points such as Eley tenex, match or edge?
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow (http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow)
The shell casings are made of brass alloy not copper alone and therefore shouldn't be copper-coloured.
Did you ask him about the coating, ie. was it paraffin wax or beeswax and do they smell different when burning?
Most of the wax coating is on the lead bullet and within the shallow bands/grooves running round its circumference, rather than on the brass casing. It's there to reduce the amount of lead deposited in the breech and bore of the rifle as the bullet is fired.
Was it a genuine Anschutz ten round magazine you loaded or a different one, because others might have lesser spring strengths? The last bullets are supposed to be harder to load in an Anschutz magazine as the spring becomes more fully compressed.
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In your role as Miss Marple Mk.II, did you have a look at a Parker-Hale moderator, preferably an '84 model and ask the seller if any blood would be present going back several baffles as a result of drawback and/or backspatter if used in close contact with say, a dying rabbit or fox?
And also ask if a Parker-Hale (or any other make of .22 moderator) gets hot after firing just 25 rounds, not consecutively but with several seconds or even minutes between groups of shots? I think you'll need to change your avatar message.
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Were they Eley subsonic hollow-points, and not round-points such as Eley tenex, match or edge?
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow (http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow)
The shell casings are made of brass alloy not copper alone and therefore shouldn't be copper-coloured.
Did you ask him about the coating, ie. was it paraffin wax or beeswax and do they smell different when burning?
Most of the wax coating is on the lead bullet and within the shallow bands/grooves running round its circumference, rather than on the brass casing. It's there to reduce the amount of lead deposited in the breech and bore of the rifle as the bullet is fired.
Was it a genuine Anschutz ten round magazine you loaded or a different one, because others might have lesser spring strengths? The last bullets are supposed to be harder to load in an Anschutz magazine as the spring becomes more fully compressed.
Myster how many times have you displayed the green box with bunny for me? Yes the bullets I inspected were Eley subsonic.
I had it in my mind they would be loose in a cardboard box but the box is plastic and each bullet is slotted in a hole face down ie the head down and the brass head hangs over the top of each slot. The box is much smaller than I imagined and contained 50.
As I was typing copper I was thinking reddish and I need yellowish. Yes you're right the end is brass.
I explained to the man my interest and how it came about ie beeswax v paraffin wax. Wow he sounded just like you... he said maybe Eley changed the lubricant. I told him I had confirmed with Eley they have always used paraffin wax and he seemed quite impressed by this 8(>((
I didn't ask about any smells.
Yes the mag was for the rifle used at WHF.
Why not check it for yourself.
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In your role as Miss Marple Mk.II, did you have a look at a Parker-Hale moderator, preferably an '84 model and ask the seller if any blood would be present going back several baffles as a result of drawback and/or backspatter if used in close contact with say, a dying rabbit or fox?
And also ask if a Parker-Hale (or any other make of .22 moderator) gets hot after firing just 25 rounds, not consecutively but with several seconds or even minutes between groups of shots? I think you'll need to change your avatar message.
No I didnt check out anything else. He was very accommodating so I could call back. Perhaps sub-consciously I wanted to engineer a reason to call back 8(0(*
According to Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis the silencer heats up after firing. As far as I'm aware all silencers heat up when a bullet is fired through them? Question is by how much and is it enough to destroy blood for serological analysis? I guess to a large extent the heat generated is dependent on the bullet? The following vid shows 390F but the firearm and bullet are clearly far more powerful than the rifle/ammo used at WHF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tJ7heDIqXU
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Don't forget there was a reason EP stored the victims blood samples in the SoC fridge.
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According to Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis the silencer heats up after firing. As far as I'm aware all silencers heat up when a bullet is fired through them? Question is by how much and is it enough to destroy blood for serological analysis? I guess to a large extent the heat generated is dependent on the bullet? The following vid shows 390F but the firearm and bullet are clearly far more powerful than the rifle/ammo used at WHF:
Someone in the US on al's IA forum said when they fired their .22 rifle around a hundred times the moderator never got warm! And one of the experts here, maybe Fletcher, said the moderator only became slightly (touch) warm after firing just twenty or so bullets.
Why not check it for yourself.
The nearest gun shop is 20 miles away and as I haven't got a firearms' license and look a bit shifty (think Freddy Krueger) they'd probably think I was casing the joint for a future break-in. This one is noted for having had several in recent years.
If you go back, instead of the Miss Marple look, disguise yourself as Bonnie Parker... he might be even more impressed and ask you for a date.
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Someone in the US on al's IA forum said when they fired their .22 rifle around a hundred times the moderator never got warm! And one of the experts here, maybe Fletcher, said the moderator only became slightly (touch) warm after firing just twenty or so bullets.
The nearest gun shop is 20 miles away and as I haven't got a firearms' license and look a bit shifty (think Freddy Krueger) they'd probably think I was casing the joint for a future break-in. This one is noted for having had several in recent years.
If you go back, instead of the Miss Marple look, disguise yourself as Bonnie Parker... he might be even more impressed and ask you for a date.
But according to CAL and her recent interview with Dr Vanezis he is now of the opinion that the burn marks on NB's back were caused by the silencer?
If you recall Phillip Boyce took the temp when he carried out the pig skin test which showed after 25 shots it didn't heat up sufficiently to cause the burn marks.
And yes MF said it only became warm to the touch.
But blood doesn't respond well to any sort of heat, even prolonged ambient temp, and the tests used to analyse the blood, sereological analysis, require good quality blood to yield results.
It should be straightforward to establish at what temp point blood is rendered useless for serological analysis.
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According to CoA doc the silencer heated up to 24.5C after 25 rounds:
472. Mr Hayward, in contrast, has we are satisfied taken some steps to satisfy himself that he is right. He started from the proposition clearly supported by evidence that within the sound moderator there would be a very turbulent motion when the rifle was discharged. This by its very nature would produce forces that would tend to mix the blood from the two sources. In addition, the unscrewing of the sound moderator to remove it involved a twisting motion through a number of complete turns, which again would facilitate mixing. Starting from this proposition, it seemed to Mr Hayward that the only likelihood of an unmixed flake of blood would be if the blood from one source dried and blood from the other source then fell upon it. That possibility was recognised and experiments were carried out to see what happened when blood was in the moderator and other shots were discharged. First the temperature of the sound moderator was established after 25 shots had been fired through it. The temperature was found to be 24.5 degrees centigrade, which is substantially less than body temperature, and hence not likely to result in any speedy drying of the blood on the moderator. The further test that was carried out was to introduce blood onto the baffles and cause the rifle to be fired to see whether the blood did in fact dry. It did not and hence the conclusion was drawn that the blood would not have dried more quickly in the moderator than on some other non-porous surface. Having regard to the time span involved, it was therefore unlikely that blood from one person would have dried before the other person was shot. It seems to us that this investigative approach is precisely the sort of experimentation that one would expect from a scientist before a theory was advanced as being capable of being relied upon.
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CAL/MF
"Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible'."
Based on my enquiries with Eley and the gun shop the above is totally wrong.
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CAL/MF
"Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible'."
Based on my enquiries with Eley and the gun shop the above is totally wrong.
What did they say? Please quote verbatim.
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What did they say? Please quote verbatim.
Email from Eley in thread confirming paraffin wax used not beeswax.
The gun shop didn't say anything. They allowed me to handle the bullets and load them into the same mag used at WHF - please see my 'discovery' post from this morning.
8(*(
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It's thirty years ago, so not surprising that people forget. Malcolm Fletcher might have been thinking of other cases or analyses he's been involved with (although I doubt it), where Eley bullets coated with beeswax were used... or Eley themselves could be mistaken - none the staff employed in the technical section in the mid 1980's might work for them now. They might not even have records going so far back and just told you paraffin wax has always been used to satisfy your curiosity.
David Boutflour mentioned that the moderator felt sticky three days after the shooting. Maybe this was caused by JB having burnt beeswax residue on his hands, unscrewing and not thoroughly wiping it before putting it in the gun cupboard. Paraffin wax doesn't have that stickiness, imo.
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It's thirty years ago, so not surprising that people forget. Malcolm Fletcher might have been thinking of other cases or analyses he's been involved with (although I doubt it), where Eley bullets coated with beeswax were used... or Eley themselves could be mistaken - none the staff employed in the technical section in the mid 1980's might work for them now. They might not even have records going so far back and just told you paraffin wax has always been used to satisfy your curiosity.
David Boutflour mentioned that the moderator felt sticky three days after the shooting. Maybe this was caused by JB having burnt beeswax residue on his hands, unscrewing and not thoroughly wiping it before putting it in the gun cupboard. Paraffin wax doesn't have that stickiness, imo.
What makes you think Eley have it wrong and not FSS? The evidence overwhelmingly points to FSS being in the wrong.
I'm sure it will be straightforward enough for JB's defence to obtain a written report from Eley confirming paraffin wax has always been used. Eley appear professional both in terms of the website and my email communication from a marketing exec ywho has a degree and is a member of the chartered institute of marketing.
The scientists at FSS have already confirmed the bullets they used in tests were "similar" to those used in the tragedy at WHF. Yet at trial the jury were told they were the "same".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg275636#msg275636
I don't believe in any huge conspiracy. I think the staff at FSS were basically incompetent and lacked the skills, knowledge and experience to manage a SoC like WHF. I'm just looking for MF's quote in CAL's book where he actually states FSS didn't see many firearms cases.
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It was actually Dr Vanezis who stated:
"He [Dr V] requested the presence of a ballistics expert at the mortuary: 'You never know what you're going to find and we didn't see a large number of firearm cases at the time, so a ballistics expert was essential'."
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Just been thinking again about which bullet type was used... how do we know for certain that they were Eley subsonic hollow-points, because all I've ever seen are the words - cartridges, bullet or bullets? No mention in the judgements, w/s's, interviews or books, including the latest, unless Holly knows any different?
Came across this video from 2010, of a chap examining some Eley high-velocity (smokeless) with hollow points for rabbits, vermin, etc. which aren't made anymore, so maybe these and/or other earlier types of hunting bullet, possibly with a beeswax coating were produced in the mid 80's which the Bambers bought and were the ones Malcolm Fletcher tested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq9c-26A-XA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq9c-26A-XA)
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Just been thinking again about which bullet type was used... how do we know for certain that they were Eley subsonic hollow-points, because all I've ever seen are the words - cartridges, bullet or bullets? No mention in the judgements, w/s's, interviews or books, including the latest, unless Holly knows any different?
Came across this video from 2010, of a chap examining some Eley high-velocity (smokeless) with hollow points for rabbits, vermin, etc. which aren't made anymore, so maybe these and/or other earlier types of hunting bullet, possibly with a beeswax coating were produced in the mid 80's which the Bambers bought and were the ones Malcolm Fletcher tested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq9c-26A-XA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq9c-26A-XA)
You don't read my posts 8)><( 8)><( 8)><(
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg273395#msg273395
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You don't read my posts 8)><( 8)><( 8)><(
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg273395#msg273395 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg273395#msg273395)
My bad!... as they say in Yankee land. Which makes it even odder that MF should now think they were coated with beeswax. He's probably forgotten after so long.
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My bad!... as they say in Yankee land. Which makes it even odder that MF should now think they were coated with beeswax. He's probably forgotten after so long.
Not necessarily.According to the CoA doc and FSS scientist Brian Elliot the bullets used in the lab to carry out various tests were "similar" to those used on the eve of the tragedy at WHF and not the "same".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg275636#msg275636
Surely the most obvious explanation is that the lab used similar bullets lubricated with beeswax and not the Eley manufactured bullets lubricated with paraffin wax?
The jury were allowed to handle the bullets and load the mag for themselves. Question is which bullets? We know the rifle, mag and silencer were handed over to EP/FSS and presented at trial but were the Eley subsonic bullets handed over? Do we have an exhibit number for the bullets?
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You'll ferret it out from somewhere. 8((()*/
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My bad!... as they say in Yankee land. Which makes it even odder that MF should now think they were coated with beeswax. He's probably forgotten after so long.
Also MF makes ref to Eley subsonic in CAL's book page 322. Although she misspells Eley. Perhaps she was thinking of Ely Cathedral which I can appreciate is a beautiful building despite being an atheist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7zSf54WsmE
Or with Vivaldi's Four Seasons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ne4uvx5cb8
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I might need to start another thread for this but MF also made various assertions at trial and in CAL's book re how difficult the magazine was to load and also some malfunction on the rifle. It appears the rifle and magazine presented to the jury were those used at WHF (certainly the silencer was) and we know poor NB sustained a dreadful beating with the rifle so much so it appears to have caused the stock to break. Did this in turn cause some damage to the mag/rifle? How did they function prior to this event?
The CoA doc describes the rifle as "..in good working order..".
Examination of the rifle 69. The rifle was a German made Anschutz model 525 .22 self-loading rifle in good working order. Cartridges are loaded into a magazine, which has a capacity of 10. It is, as the jury found when they conducted the exercise themselves, progressively harder to load as the number of cartridges increases. Loading the tenth is exceptionally hard. Assuming a full capacity at the commencement of the shooting at the farm, the discharge of the rifle twenty-five times would require it to be re-loaded a minimum of two more times.
And yet CAL's book P 361/interview with MF:
"Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher was sworn in next, discussing the tests he had conducted, including those with the faulty magazine release mechanism on the rifle, during the course of which he had broken a thumbnail" Awww 8)><(
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Why is Malcolm Fletcher starting to remind me of the guy in the Vicks sinex ad?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3xfYGHXzI0
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Here we go CAL page 318:
"At the laboratory in Huntingdon Malcolm Fletcher examined the Anschutz noting its measurements and any damage before checking the mechanism. 'In terms of blood, viewing it externally, there was very little visible,' he recalls. The Anschutz test fired normally, but he observed: 'The magazine is progressively harder to load as the number of cartridges in the magazine increases; loading the tenth cartridge is exceptionally difficult.' Today he reflects: 'You had to really press the last few hard and slide them into the magazine'."
"Fletcher also discovered a fault with the reloading mechanism: 'The slide that you pulled back to release a cartridge from the magazine into the chamber sometimes didn't go back far enough to let the cartridge case be drawn out, fire one and throw it out of the weapon as normal. The cartridge case would be partially out and the slide would fly forward again, trapping the case in the chamber. This happened when I was doing my tests and again later, when the jury asked for a demonstration of the gun being fired: part way through the sequence of firing a full magazine, the cartridge case jammed in the chamber and the ejection port'." The fault provided one explanation for the cartridge case found on the stairs, although cartridge cases 'bounce and roll, and it's possible that they get picked up on clothing or kicked by someone walking past. The ejection pattern on this gun was to the right and [it was] a matter of two or three feet where the case would normally fall. But that was certainly one possibility'."
But, but the CoA doc states:
Examination of the rifle 69. The rifle was a German made Anschutz model 525 .22 self-loading rifle in good working order. Cartridges are loaded into a magazine, which has a capacity of 10. It is, as the jury found when they conducted the exercise themselves, progressively harder to load as the number of cartridges increases. Loading the tenth is exceptionally hard. Assuming a full capacity at the commencement of the shooting at the farm, the discharge of the rifle twenty-five times would require it to be re-loaded a minimum of two more times.
&%+((£
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Here's MF's statement re the rifle malfunction:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=271.0;attach=871
Why then does the CoA doc state the rifle was in good working order?
Examination of the rifle 69. The rifle was a German made Anschutz model 525 .22 self-loading rifle in good working order. Cartridges are loaded into a magazine, which has a capacity of 10. It is, as the jury found when they conducted the exercise themselves, progressively harder to load as the number of cartridges increases. Loading the tenth is exceptionally hard. Assuming a full capacity at the commencement of the shooting at the farm, the discharge of the rifle twenty-five times would require it to be re-loaded a minimum of two more times.
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Sadly I think this thread is going to be a long drawn out solo mass debating session 8)><(
I've taken CAL's interview with MF as follows:
"Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Eley Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would be very visible'."
"Forensic scientist Brian Elliot recorded 'very low levels of lead' from Sheila's hand swabs. Comparison tests with two members of laboratory staff who loaded a total of eighteen cartridges into the magazine from the rifle, showed significantly higher levels of lead. Elliot concluded: 'I would expect hands of a person loading cartridges into the rifle to bear appreciable deposits of lead. No such deposits have been found on the hand swabs from Sheila Caffell".
"But Fletcher remains confident that wax discharged from the fired bullets would have resulted in 'some of the material ending up on the shooter. I tested the surface of Sheila's nightdress and I got no indication, either visual or chemical, of lead or wax material. I would have expected to find it especially with the number of shots that were fired. I tested it thoroughly and there was no evidence of the spots of waxy material that showed up on the test fires'."
"On 29 April, defence firearms expert Freddie Mead asked to examine the rifle, silencer, bullets, cartridge cases, clothing, x-rays and photographs at the laboratory in Huntingdon. Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'What they did was they got Freddie Mead to load cartridges into the magazine without touching the bullet, which is all fine and good - yes, you can do it, but its contrived. You've got to put the base of the cartridge case in and then press it and slide it down without touching the bullet itself, which isn't easy. Once you get up to the ninth and tenth cartridge its damn near impossible."
"Fletchers colleague Glynis Howard gave evidence next, followed by Brian Elliot, who told the court about very low levels of lead detected from Sheila's hand swabs. Rivlin counter-acted his testimony by referring to ritualistic washing again and drawing Elliot's attention to traces of other elements, iron and copper, in the test results. The scientist responded that these were no higher than might be ordinarily obtained from the atmosphere".
"The jury also requested an opportunity to see for themselves how much oil and other residues might be left on the hands of someone loading bullets into the Anschutz magazine. They were permitted to conduct an experiment in a nearby room".
End of quotes from book
1. Which bullets were being used to carry out all these tests including those used at trial?
2. When I loaded the Eley Subsonic bullets into the Anschutz magazine it was easier that replacing a battery in the tv remote. There was no difference between the first and last bullet ie it didn't get progressively more difficult.
3. The bullets are loaded by inserting the lead head and pressing on the brass end so there was no need to even touch the lead head.
4. MF's description of beeswax flying around makes it sound like the shooter gets showered in it. Firstly according to Eley the subsonic bullets have never been manufactured in beeswax. Secondly they are manufactured with paraffin wax which is used as a lubricant by coating the head and are minuscule amounts of clear wax. How on earth could these amounts, in such small quantities, be ejected from the ejection port and then be visible on the shooter? The bullet head is lubricated in paraffin wax and fired out of the barrel. The brass part which isn't lubricated is fired out of the ejection port. &%+((£
5. Did MF carry out tests on the rifle and magazine used at WHF which were both possibly damaged from the beating poor NB sustained and compare with a brand new Anschutz rifle and magazine?
6. Was the point about MF breaking a nail some sort of inference that had SC have operated the rifle and magazine she would have damaged her nails?
7. The jury were allowed to test the rifle and magazine for themselves. Yet if the rifle and mag were those used at WHF and they were damaged this wasn't really an accurate reflection of how they would normally operate.
Wilkes book makes ref to serious shortcomings at FSS Huntingdon so much so a team were sent in to sort things out. This was nothing to do with WHF case. Were the scientists incompetent due to lack of experience with a SoC such as WHF, especially with regards to firearms? Or did EP say look we know he's guilty and we want the 'evidence' presented this way? Or was it combination of both with a bit of flawed group thinking thrown in for good measure?
Had all these police officers, scientists, expert witnesses and members of the judiciary been a less homogenous group would this have made a difference? 99% white, middle aged, males.
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You'll ferret it out from somewhere. 8((()*/
Been ferreting in the loft. Found my old pc from my Blue days. Exhibit 51 and 93 represent unspent cartridges and a box.
I find the standard of paperwork so lacking. DS Davidson confirmed for the COLP inquiry that when items are submitted to FSS the police record them on form HOLAB 3 and yet it seems here we have Essex police using a standard witness statement form to submit and no signature from anyone at FSS confirming receipt with a date.
It seems the unspent cartridges were submitted on 20th Sept. I'll have to do some more ferreting to try and clarify when the various tests were carried out.
I've got some other docs to upload which confirm once again Eley Subsonic.
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Oh the images are somewhat blurred @)(++(* I'll try to fix.
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Oh the images are somewhat blurred @)(++(* I'll try to fix.
Give me a shout if you need any help.
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Give me a shout if you need any help.
Thank you Myster.
I like to try and sort these things out myself or I will never develop into the person I aspire to be 8)-)))
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Been ferreting in the loft. Found my old pc from my Blue days. Exhibit 51 and 93 represent unspent cartridges and a box.
I find the standard of paperwork so lacking. DS Davidson confirmed for the COLP inquiry that when items are submitted to FSS the police record them on form HOLAB 3 and yet it seems here we have Essex police using a standard witness statement form to submit and no signature from anyone at FSS confirming receipt with a date.
It seems the unspent cartridges were submitted on 20th Sept. I'll have to do some more ferreting to try and clarify when the various tests were carried out.
I've got some other docs to upload which confirm once again Eley Subsonic.
Apologies for the uploads please try the following:
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I've made a real pigs ear of the downloads above now all deleted. They were not the one I intended.
Attachment MF1 shows the date the first exhibits were submitted: 30th Aug
Attachment MF2 shows exhibit DRH/23 = cartridge and box submitted
Attachment MF3 shows exhibit DRH/22 = cartridges (note plural) submitted on 20th Sept
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Apologies for the uploads please try the following:
They were OK!... I managed to download and read them before you deleted. I can't remember seeing those in the documents section here.
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They were OK!... I managed to download and read them before you deleted. I can't remember seeing those in the documents section here.
Yes but they were not relevant to the posts/thread. I will arrange for them to go in the library.
Here's the statement confirming Eley subsonic. Also MF's states he test fired some from the box.