Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 10:00:13 PM
Title: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 10:00:13 PM
Why did the Mccanns official website not publicise these in any obvious way. and why did they retain a prime position on their website for Tannerman and others (one of which IE an Australian woman who has since been found and had nothng to do with anythng) SY have more or less discounted
Secondly why is Smithmans efits nowhere to be seen on the Mccanns Portuguese version of their website, do they look bothered in finding witnesses to him?Seems not...and this harks back to what the Times article said, they were in possession of these efits in 2008....and n a soul saw them until 5 years later on telly, but even after that, the Mccanns didn't seem to want them publicised much....a stone unturned?
254
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 08:23:57 AM
Where's the evidence that they did?
The Times acknowledged in its apology that the efits had been with Scotland Yard for some considerable time.
Even if they were in a position to, why should the McCanns have gainsaid Scotland Yard?
Scotland Yard chose the moment of the release of the e-fits, not the McCanns.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 08:03:25 PM
The Times acknowledged in its apology that the efits had been with Scotland Yard for some considerable time.
Even if they were in a position to, why should the McCanns have gainsaid Scotland Yard?
Scotland Yard chose the moment of the release of the e-fits, not the McCanns.
The evidence that they did is the fact that they didn't....mention or publish the efits from the second they got them in 2008, until after Crimewatch, they placed them on their website but not in any prominent position, and without any pertinent differentiation or description about the importance compared to other spurious ones and never on the Portuguese version of said website. This is not a thread rehashing the efits /Times discussion, but a particular question of why the efits are NOT on the PT version of the site.Wouldnt you call that lazy website maintenance at least? So,yes, very much a stone unturned.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 08:18:44 PM
The evidence that they did is the fact that they didn't....mention or publish the efits from the second they got them in 2008, until after Crimewatch, they placed them on their website but not in any prominent position, and without any pertinent differentiation or description about the importance compared to other spurious ones and never on the Portuguese version of said website. This is not a thread rehashing the efits /Times discussion, but a particular question of why the efits are NOT on the PT version of the site.Wouldnt you call that lazy website maintenance at least? So,yes, very much a stone unturned.
Smithman is visible on the MF english language page. Smithman is completely invisible on the MF portuguese language page. The world's first language-sensitive invisibilty suit. Oh well never mind it's not as if there are many portuguese speakers in Portugal are there?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 08:30:18 PM
It's like a magic trick - switch language and he disappears. "now you see him, agora você não vê-lo" Have none of the avid supporters on this forum even bothered to notify the fund website to correct this?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 09:49:30 PM
Obviously not
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 12:33:13 AM
It's just another interesting question like many other queries the "supporters" can't answer, I have a little list which is growing
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 07:32:05 AM
Not a single "supporter" here has bothered to tell MFLNSUL that the third and obsolete "object" (aim) needs removing from their site, nor bothered to tell them that the portuguese page needs fixing to include smithman like the english page. Any volunteers to do this from amongst the many apparently serious MF supporters here?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2015, 09:55:31 AM
Not a single "supporter" here has bothered to tell MFLNSUL that the third and obsolete "object" (aim) needs removing from their site, nor bothered to tell them that the portuguese page needs fixing to include smithman like the english page. Any volunteers to do this from amongst the many apparently serious MF supporters here?
Unlike you, I don't think it's my business to tell others what to put on their websites, or to jump to the tune of those that don't have their best interests at heart in the first place. If those who look after the Madeleine website choose not to update the PT page with the Smithman e-fits then perhaps there is a perfectly good reason for that which is actually none of my (or your) business.
We can all speculate until the cows come home about Smithman and whether or not he is still relevant to the investigation, however I would say - if he was critical to solving this case then why aren't we hearing more about him from the authorities themselves? Why aren't the Met and the PJ circulating his image more frequently? I believe the former have had one crack at the media about it, what about the PJ? The police are the ones charged with solving this case, and if they felt that appealing for information about this man was still important today then what are they doing about it? Where is Smithman's image on their own websites? If it isn't there, then what suspicions does that raise with you guys?... &%+((£
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on September 23, 2015, 10:10:07 AM
Unlike you, I don't think it's my business to tell others what to put on their websites, or to jump to the tune of those that don't have their best interests at heart in the first place. If those who look after the Madeleine website choose not to update the PT page with the Smithman e-fits then perhaps there is a perfectly good reason for that which is actually none of my (or your) business.
We can all speculate until the cows come home about Smithman and whether or not he is still relevant to the investigation, however I would say - if he was critical to solving this case then why aren't we hearing more about him from the authorities themselves? Why aren't the Met and the PJ circulating his image more frequently? I believe the former have had one crack at the media about it, what about the PJ? The police are the ones charged with solving this case, and if they felt that appealing for information about this man was still important today then what are they doing about it? Where is Smithman's image on their own websites? If it isn't there, then what suspicions does that raise with you guys?... &%+((£
Very logical post ....
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 23, 2015, 12:29:54 PM
... what about the PJ? The police are the ones charged with solving this case, and if they felt that appealing for information about this man was still important today then what are they doing about it? Where is Smithman's image on their own websites? If it isn't there, then what suspicions does that raise with you guys?... &%+((£
Do you have a list of PJ sites or can you point me to the right area? I cannot form a conclusion or make a comment until I can see what these sites are and do.
Thanks.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2015, 12:47:19 PM
Do you have a list of PJ sites or can you point me to the right area? I cannot form a conclusion or make a comment until I can see what these sites are and do.
Thanks.
Nope. You're better placed to know how to access these sites, or if they even exist. Better still you can tell us if the PJ have circulated any sort of information about the Smithman e-fits either in PdL or anywhere in Portugal, either in the form of a press conference, media appeal, a poster or flyer or whatever. If they haven't, then what conclusions may we draw, if any?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2015, 01:00:50 PM
No mention of any suspects they are looking for as far as I can see.
Maybe they don't like e fits? On the same site.....
As is the case with any situation in which a child goes missing, notwithstanding formal dismissal of the inquiry into her disappearance, and just as has always been publicly stated, the Polícia Judiciária never stopped paying close attention to any and all information that might possibly shed light on the whereabouts of the minor Madeleine McCann, the circumstances surrounding her disappearance and the identity of the perpetrator(s).
It was with this goal in mind that in March 2011 the National Director of the Polícia Judiciária entrusted a team of investigators from the North Directorate with the mission of reassessing, as a whole, the vast amount of information gathered during the inquiry, aimed at identifying data for which a more in-depth investigation might be useful and possible.
The reassessment which took place over the last two years and a half suggested new evidence to have surfaced, which, requiring the investigation to proceed, meets the requirements set out by section 279(1) of the Portuguese Code of Criminal Procedure for reopening of the inquiry.
Accordingly, a request for reopening was made to the Public Prosecutor for the jurisdiction of Portimao, and approval granted by the latter.
24 October 2013
ETA No updates in Interpol either http://www.interpol.int/News-and-media/News/2012/PR042
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on September 23, 2015, 04:39:42 PM
Nope. You're better placed to know how to access these sites, or if they even exist. Better still you can tell us if the PJ have circulated any sort of information about the Smithman e-fits either in PdL or anywhere in Portugal, either in the form of a press conference, media appeal, a poster or flyer or whatever. If they haven't, then what conclusions may we draw, if any?
That the SY thought a UK citizen was more likely to recognise this man because he isn't Portuguese?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 23, 2015, 05:00:06 PM
Nope. You're better placed to know how to access these sites, or if they even exist. Better still you can tell us if the PJ have circulated any sort of information about the Smithman e-fits either in PdL or anywhere in Portugal, either in the form of a press conference, media appeal, a poster or flyer or whatever. If they haven't, then what conclusions may we draw, if any?
Thanks for your reply.
I now know that such sites may or may not exist, and hence the purpose thereof has not yet been ascertained.
I have no information as to whether the PJ have circulated information about the Smithman e-fits, nor whether they have been requested to do so, nor whether it fits in with Portuguese law.
Until and unless we can find such a site, and evaluate what is put up in broadly similar cases (if such exist) then no conclusions can be drawn, other than that we have not found such a site.
The Smithman e-fits were prominent in Portuguese media around the time of the Crimewatch programme. As far as I can tell, based on the ones I have seen, there was no request to get in touch with SY if Portuguese people recognised the man, nor information on how to do so.
The Sun visited Luz around that time and put up posters of the e-fits, with contact numbers. Since both the English and Portuguese versions made the man a SUSPECT, the chances of getting a response were minimal.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2015, 05:26:24 PM
I was asking why the PJ might not have circulated the images, not the Met.
Which photos? The PJ site still had her original little girl photo online the last I looked.
ETA: Just went to check again... no photo, but an interesting statement:
> Madeleine McCann
À semelhança do que sucede com todos os casos de crianças desaparecidas, não obstante o arquivamento formal do inquérito relativo ao seu desaparecimento, e como sempre foi publicamente afirmado, a Polícia Judiciária continuou a estar atenta a toda e qualquer informação suscetível de permitir conhecer o paradeiro da menor Madeleine McCann, as circunstâncias em que ocorreu o seu desaparecimento e a identidade do(s) seu(s) autor(es).
Com esse objetivo, pelo Diretor Nacional da Polícia Judiciária, em março de 2011, foi atribuída a uma equipa de investigadores da Diretoria do Norte a missão de reanalisar todo o vasto conjunto de informação constante do inquérito, com o objetivo de identificar aquela cujo aprofundamento se revelasse útil e possível.
Esse trabalho de reanálise, que decorreu durante os últimos dois anos e meio, permitiu conhecer novos indícios que, impondo a continuação da investigação, preenchem os requisitos estabelecidos pelo artº 279º nº 1 do Código de Processo Penal para a reabertura do inquérito.
Feita proposta em conformidade ao Exmo. Procurador da República na comarca de Portimão, foi a mesma deferida.
Which photos? The PJ site still had her original little girl photo online the last I looked.
ETA: Just went to check again... no photo, but an interesting statement:
> Madeleine McCann
À semelhança do que sucede com todos os casos de crianças desaparecidas, não obstante o arquivamento formal do inquérito relativo ao seu desaparecimento, e como sempre foi publicamente afirmado, a Polícia Judiciária continuou a estar atenta a toda e qualquer informação suscetível de permitir conhecer o paradeiro da menor Madeleine McCann, as circunstâncias em que ocorreu o seu desaparecimento e a identidade do(s) seu(s) autor(es).
Com esse objetivo, pelo Diretor Nacional da Polícia Judiciária, em março de 2011, foi atribuída a uma equipa de investigadores da Diretoria do Norte a missão de reanalisar todo o vasto conjunto de informação constante do inquérito, com o objetivo de identificar aquela cujo aprofundamento se revelasse útil e possível.
Esse trabalho de reanálise, que decorreu durante os últimos dois anos e meio, permitiu conhecer novos indícios que, impondo a continuação da investigação, preenchem os requisitos estabelecidos pelo artº 279º nº 1 do Código de Processo Penal para a reabertura do inquérito.
Feita proposta em conformidade ao Exmo. Procurador da República na comarca de Portimão, foi a mesma deferida.
I now know that such sites may or may not exist, and hence the purpose thereof has not yet been ascertained.
I have no information as to whether the PJ have circulated information about the Smithman e-fits, nor whether they have been requested to do so, nor whether it fits in with Portuguese law.
Until and unless we can find such a site, and evaluate what is put up in broadly similar cases (if such exist) then no conclusions can be drawn, other than that we have not found such a site.
The Smithman e-fits were prominent in Portuguese media around the time of the Crimewatch programme. As far as I can tell, based on the ones I have seen, there was no request to get in touch with SY if Portuguese people recognised the man, nor information on how to do so.
The Sun visited Luz around that time and put up posters of the e-fits, with contact numbers. Since both the English and Portuguese versions made the man a SUSPECT, the chances of getting a response were minimal.
"The Smithman e-fits were prominent in Portuguese media around the time of the Crimewatch programme." Do you have a link to one of those portuguese media articles please?
"The Sun visited Luz around that time and put up posters of the e-fits" But those posters failed to state the sighting location. They were just vague "have you seen this man". They should have given the sighting location.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Anna on September 23, 2015, 05:53:05 PM
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 08:52:35 PM
If anyone can show me any appeal in the portuguese language which shows the smithman efits and states the sighting location I will buy them a very large virtual Amereto.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 08:56:21 PM
If anyone can show me any appeal in the portuguese language which shows the smithman efits and states the sighting location I will buy them a very large virtual Amereto.
Never read about an appeal per se, but the story (Crimewatch prog) was in many PT papers including the English Portugal resident with efits
But Alfred says it's none of our business anyway
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 09:18:18 PM
Never read about an appeal per se, but the story (Crimewatch prog) was in many PT papers including the English Portugal resident with efits ...(snip)
If so can you post a link? If it is in portuguese language, states the sighting location, and shows the efits, you get a virtual almond bitter liqueor (as served on wed 2nd May until 00H00/00H10)
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 09:30:41 PM
If so can you post a link? If it is in portuguese language, states the sighting location, and shows the efits, you get a virtual almond bitter liqueor (as served on wed 2nd May until 00H00/00H10)
They all showed the efits, though not found one yet for time or location but I haven't looked very far, will give it a try
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 10:08:14 PM
Sorry, had a good stab, found nothing, but what's the significance of the Pt media not publicising all the Crimewatch details...
I think in some people's eyes it excuses the lack of prominence of the e-fits on FM site.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 11:57:19 PM
Imagine there was a portuguese tourist, who does not understand english, walking down that section of Rua Escola and Travessa Das Escadhinas at about 10pm carrying his sleeping daughter.
Imagine he reads all the portuguese language pages on the official MF site, and all the portuguese pages on the SY site. Show me the page where he will read the street names and his own description so that he comes forward. And if he turns on the television, might he see the portuguese language translation of Crimewatch? Unfortunately not, because when the portuguese broadcasters tried, the BBC for legal reasons refused permission. So how exactly is this man supposed to know SY want to contact him? Learn english so he can read the appeals? Become a psychic? Guess?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 12:02:31 AM
Just that they haven't said anything about having them, that's all.
There not difficult to get hold of are they? Perhaps the PJ just don't go in for photofits. Or maybe it's something to do with their secrecy laws. Or maybe they don't think Smithman is relevant to this case. Or maybe they've already id'ed and dismissed Smithman or made him an arguido. Or maybe they're being obstructive and don't really want this case to be solved. Who knows? But apparently we the public have a right to know as it's OUR business, so maybe we should start a campaign of letters and e-mails to the relevant authorities and McCanns to find out?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on September 24, 2015, 08:53:46 AM
There not difficult to get hold of are they? Perhaps the PJ just don't go in for photofits. Or maybe it's something to do with their secrecy laws. Or maybe they don't think Smithman is relevant to this case. Or maybe they've already id'ed and dismissed Smithman or made him an arguido. Or maybe they're being obstructive and don't really want this case to be solved. Who knows? But apparently we the public have a right to know as it's OUR business, so maybe we should start a campaign of letters and e-mails to the relevant authorities and McCanns to find out?
Carry on then Alfred.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2015, 08:59:09 AM
There not difficult to get hold of are they? Perhaps the PJ just don't go in for photofits. Or maybe it's something to do with their secrecy laws. Or maybe they don't think Smithman is relevant to this case. Or maybe they've already id'ed and dismissed Smithman or made him an arguido. Or maybe they're being obstructive and don't really want this case to be solved. Who knows? But apparently we the public have a right to know as it's OUR business, so maybe we should start a campaign of letters and e-mails to the relevant authorities and McCanns to find out?
So who is paying for the investigation Alfred ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 09:07:39 AM
Imagine there was a portuguese tourist, who does not understand english, walking down that section of Rua Escola and Travessa Das Escadhinas at about 10pm carrying his sleeping daughter.
Imagine he reads all the portuguese language pages on the official MF site, and all the portuguese pages on the SY site. Show me the page where he will read the street names and his own description so that he comes forward. And if he turns on the television, might he see the portuguese language translation of Crimewatch? Unfortunately not, because when the portuguese broadcasters tried, the BBC for legal reasons refused permission. So how exactly is this man supposed to know SY want to contact him? Learn english so he can read the appeals? Become a psychic? Guess?
The Polícia Judiciária have primacy in Madeleine McCann's case.
Apparently Tannerman was ruled out of the inquiry by police work in Britain; perhaps judicial secrecy bars us from being told that similar diligence in Portugal has also ruled out Smithman.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 24, 2015, 09:23:49 AM
"The Smithman e-fits were prominent in Portuguese media around the time of the Crimewatch programme." Do you have a link to one of those portuguese media articles please?
"The Sun visited Luz around that time and put up posters of the e-fits" But those posters failed to state the sighting location. They were just vague "have you seen this man". They should have given the sighting location.
The following are from StopTheMyths. I am not a member there, so I dug it out of Google cache. Carana is a member there, so possibly has much more extensive knowledge on this point.
SIC http://sicnoticias.sapo.pt/pais/2013/10/14/policia-tera-detido-homem-suspeito-no-desaparecimento-de-maddie
Euronews Euronews Mundo Portugues
Novo suspeito para o caso de Madeleine McCann (New suspect in the Madeleine McCann Case)
14/10 05:46 CET
O desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann, em Maio de 2007, na Praia da Luz tem uma nova versão na perspectiva da policia britânica que reabriu o caso e referenciou vários suspeitos. Dois retratos-robôs de um homem foram revelados. A Scotland Yard considera prioritário identificar este suspeito cuja descrição foi dada por duas testemunhas diferentes na Praia da Luz.
O inspector Andy Redwood considera que “há uma significativa mudança na versão dos acontecimentos que foram tornados públicos até ao momento.”.
442 pessoas foram interrogadas desde a revisão da investigação 15 das quais cidadãos britânicos que são considerados de interesse.
Dados de telemóveis de centenas de pessoas entre turistas, locais e funcionários do resort foram igualmente passados a pente fino assim como estão a ser verificadas identificações de predadores sexuais que estariam próximos do local na altura em que o desaparecimento ocorreu. Mais informação sobre Rapto
Expresso PT EXPRESSO PT
Scotland Yard today unveils two portraits robot of a man who considers "priority" to identify the scope of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, six years ago in Portugal. The man is described as white, with short brown hair and medium height, between the ages of 20 and 40 years and beardless face, says the British police in a statement. Picture was released in Portugal by Angência Lusa.
A new investigation of the authorities called "Operation Grange ', brings together about 35 people - and shall have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence - and intends to review the entire chronology of the case of the disappearance of British girl .
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, where the child disappeared, the May 3, 2007. Programme on BBC reconstitutes disappearance
Tonight, the two pictures will be shown in the program "Crimewatch" station BBC British public, dedicated to issuing appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police. Reconsituição will be a crime and will be interviewed Kate and Gerry McCann, Maddie's parents, as well as Detective Andy Redwood, which coordinates research.
"While this man may or may not be the key to unlock this research, find him and talk to him is vital for us," said Detective Andy Redwood, the statement said. "The chronology that now established gave new importance to witnesses and sightings of people around Praia da Luz at the time Madeleine disappeared," he explained.
"Our work so far has changed significantly the chronology of events and that he thought he had succeeded, in the public domain. Allowed us to work with the 'Crimewatch' to build the most detailed reconstruction to date," he said. "I hope that when the public come to our research and our call to bring more information to take us further forward," he concluded.
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal. "This is far from being our only line of research and there will be more robot portraits of other people, who also have an interest in identifying. Such people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, or in the days before", he stressed the detective.
CdM
My friends, this was taken from Correio da Manhã newspaper:
Learn how is the primary suspect in the Maddie case
British police released two portraits robot , one 2007 and one current , the suspect is identifying priority for the investigation into the disappearance of Maddie .
Scotland Yard released two pictures of a robot man who considers it a priority to identify in the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago , British police said .
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz , in the Algarve , where the English child disappeared , the May 3, 2007 .
Both portraits will be shown on Monday night at the station program Crimewatch BBC public , dedicated to the issue of public appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police .
In the program, with Redwood , will be interviewed the child's parents , Kate and Gerry McCann , and shown a reconstruction of what has happened that night to try to encourage people with information on this man , to contact the police .
The program will also be made an appeal to people who have been in or near Praia da Luz and that have not been questioned by the police , to pass relevant information about the case .
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal .
British police revealed that about 35 people are working on this investigation , called "Operation Grange " , and shall have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence .
Besides Portugal , the British authorities sent letters to 30 other countries asking for information about people and are analyzing mobile phone data identified as being in the area and time of Madeleine's disappearance .
Meet the new face of the suspect in the Maddie case
Scotland Yard announced this Monday , two portraits robot of a man who considers it a priority to identify the scope of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago .
Police released pictures robot to identify man related with the Maddie case
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz , in the Algarve , where the English child disappeared that day , the May 3, 2007 .
The man was described as being white , with short brown hair and average height , age between 20 and 40 years and beardless face , referred to Scotland Yard Metropolitan Police in a statement .
The team is carrying out a review of the case is to focus attention on what has happened in the timeline that will succeed the " abduction " , thus considering " substantially higher " the testimony of these witnesses .
" While this man may or may not be the key to unlock this investigation, find him and talk to him is vital for us," said Detective Andy Redwood , in his statement.
Both portraits will be shown this Monday evening , the program Crimewatch BBC public station dedicated to the issue of public appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police .
In the issue , and Redwood , will be interviewed the child's parents , Kate and Gerry McCann , and shown a reconstruction of what has happened that night to try to encourage people with information on this man , to contact the police .
The program will also be made an appeal to people who have been in or near Praia da Luz and that have not been questioned by the police , to pass relevant information about the case .
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal .
" This is far from being our only line of research and there will be more robot portraits of other people , who also have an interest in identifying . Such people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance , or in the days before " , he stressed the detective .
British police says it has to work in this investigation , called "Operation Grange " about 35 people and we also have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence .
Besides Portugal , the British authorities sent letters to 30 other countries asking for information about people and are analyzing mobile phone data identified as being in the area and time of Madeleine's disappearance .
Forty- one people were classified by Scotland Yard " of interest " to the investigation , including an unspecified number of 15 Portuguese and British , on which the police think there are " reasons to suspect" , including precedents concerning pedophilia .
O Publico
Meet the new face of the suspect in the Maddie case
Scotland Yard announced this Monday , two portraits robot of a man who considers it a priority to identify the scope of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago .
Police released pictures robot to identify man related with the Maddie case
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz , in the Algarve , where the English child disappeared that day , the May 3, 2007 .
The man was described as being white , with short brown hair and average height , age between 20 and 40 years and beardless face , referred to Scotland Yard Metropolitan Police in a statement .
The team is carrying out a review of the case is to focus attention on what has happened in the timeline that will succeed the " abduction " , thus considering " substantially higher " the testimony of these witnesses .
" While this man may or may not be the key to unlock this investigation, find him and talk to him is vital for us," said Detective Andy Redwood , in his statement.
Both portraits will be shown this Monday evening , the program Crimewatch BBC public station dedicated to the issue of public appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police .
In the issue , and Redwood , will be interviewed the child's parents , Kate and Gerry McCann , and shown a reconstruction of what has happened that night to try to encourage people with information on this man , to contact the police .
The program will also be made an appeal to people who have been in or near Praia da Luz and that have not been questioned by the police , to pass relevant information about the case .
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal .
" This is far from being our only line of research and there will be more robot portraits of other people , who also have an interest in identifying . Such people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance , or in the days before " , he stressed the detective .
British police says it has to work in this investigation , called "Operation Grange " about 35 people and we also have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence .
Besides Portugal , the British authorities sent letters to 30 other countries asking for information about people and are analyzing mobile phone data identified as being in the area and time of Madeleine's disappearance .
Forty- one people were classified by Scotland Yard " of interest " to the investigation , including an unspecified number of 15 Portuguese and British , on which the police think there are " reasons to suspect" , including precedents concerning pedophilia.
Euronews Portugal Euronews Portugal Bulletin 11:30 14th October
This was the sixth item on the 11:30 bulletin today after Italy Refugee Survivors US Crisis Syria India Bridge Disaster Russian Anti Migrant Riots French Elections
RTP RTP Informação News Bulletin 12:00 October 14th
Though it was third item on the schedule there was a very long section on the PT economy as they are undergoing major cuts to the pensions etc and at least six party spokesmen commented. So it was 20 minutes into the bulletin before any international news.
I cannot pick up a great deal from the spoken commentary but it does seem to cover all the material so far released by SY which is very promising. {The poster's comment, not mine.}
Sky Sky not impressed with Portuguese Reporting. http://news.sky.com/story/1154336/madeleine-mccann-appeal-falls-flat-in-portugal
Madeleine McCann: Appeal Falls Flat In Portugal Images of the new suspect are not headline news and the reconstruction is not airing prominently on Portuguese television. 1:33pm UK, Monday 14 October 2013
By Robert Nisbet, Europe Correspondent in Praia da Luz
The new Madeleine McCann appeal may have triggered headlines around the world but in Portugal the response has been muted.
While the e-fit images of the man detectives believe is "vital" to their enquiry can be found on the inside of national and regional newspapers, this is no longer front page news.
Paul Luckman, editor of the largest English language newspaper, The Portugal News, says the continued level of interest outside the country is "astounding".
"I don't think anyone can understand after six years how police based in England can find out what happened here. It doesn't really hang together," he said.
As for his readers: "They are fed up with it. They've lost interest in the whole case." E-fits of suspect police want to question Police say this man is of "vital importance" to their investigation
Many still bridle at suggestions from British journalists that the original Portuguese investigation was bungled.
In the hours after Kate McCann discovered her daughter was missing, police officers and local residents joined a search of the area.
Mr Luckman says at that time it was assumed the girl had woken and gone in search of her parents, who were dining at a nearby tapas restaurant.
He said child psychologists have determined young children on their own invariably walk downhill, so most of the effort was focused on the roads leading from the apartment towards the beach. Paul Luckman Paul Luckman says some cannot see how English police can solve the case
There was criticism that officers failed to consider an abduction and therefore did not seal the apartment to keep any possible evidence from being tainted.
Graham Roberts, who is retired and has lived here for 18 years, said people cannot understand why the details of the investigation and the case are still being "raked over".
"They are saying, 'why is it just this one case?' There are loads of other cases around the world, why has this one got such an ongoing high profile?"
One man who lives near the apartment but didn't want to be named said it was "crazy" that the reconstruction is not airing prominently on Portuguese television. Madeleine McCann missing Scene from a TV reconstruction of Madeleine's disappearance
"Surely the people who might be able to help identify these suspects are not holiday makers but the locals who live here day in, day out?" he said.
The case has certainly left some Portuguese police bitter about the perception of the force, as well as what they regard as outside interference.
One person described the original lead investigator Gonçalo Amaral as a "broken man". He is now being sued for libel by the McCanns over two books he wrote afterwards.
*****************************
As I said at the start, I am not a member, therefore I get the links from Google cache, and most links are incomplete. Carana was commenting on this page at StopTheMyths, so I would suggest that route if you want more.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 09:43:51 AM
The following are from StopTheMyths. I am not a member there, so I dug it out of Google cache. Carana is a member there, so possibly has much more extensive knowledge on this point.
SIC http://sicnoticias.sapo.pt/pais/2013/10/14/policia-tera-detido-homem-suspeito-no-desaparecimento-de-maddie
Euronews Euronews Mundo Portugues
Novo suspeito para o caso de Madeleine McCann (New suspect in the Madeleine McCann Case)
14/10 05:46 CET
O desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann, em Maio de 2007, na Praia da Luz tem uma nova versão na perspectiva da policia britânica que reabriu o caso e referenciou vários suspeitos. Dois retratos-robôs de um homem foram revelados. A Scotland Yard considera prioritário identificar este suspeito cuja descrição foi dada por duas testemunhas diferentes na Praia da Luz.
O inspector Andy Redwood considera que “há uma significativa mudança na versão dos acontecimentos que foram tornados públicos até ao momento.”.
442 pessoas foram interrogadas desde a revisão da investigação 15 das quais cidadãos britânicos que são considerados de interesse.
Dados de telemóveis de centenas de pessoas entre turistas, locais e funcionários do resort foram igualmente passados a pente fino assim como estão a ser verificadas identificações de predadores sexuais que estariam próximos do local na altura em que o desaparecimento ocorreu. Mais informação sobre Rapto
Expresso PT EXPRESSO PT
Scotland Yard today unveils two portraits robot of a man who considers "priority" to identify the scope of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, six years ago in Portugal. The man is described as white, with short brown hair and medium height, between the ages of 20 and 40 years and beardless face, says the British police in a statement. Picture was released in Portugal by Angência Lusa.
A new investigation of the authorities called "Operation Grange ', brings together about 35 people - and shall have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence - and intends to review the entire chronology of the case of the disappearance of British girl .
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, where the child disappeared, the May 3, 2007. Programme on BBC reconstitutes disappearance
Tonight, the two pictures will be shown in the program "Crimewatch" station BBC British public, dedicated to issuing appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police. Reconsituição will be a crime and will be interviewed Kate and Gerry McCann, Maddie's parents, as well as Detective Andy Redwood, which coordinates research.
"While this man may or may not be the key to unlock this research, find him and talk to him is vital for us," said Detective Andy Redwood, the statement said. "The chronology that now established gave new importance to witnesses and sightings of people around Praia da Luz at the time Madeleine disappeared," he explained.
"Our work so far has changed significantly the chronology of events and that he thought he had succeeded, in the public domain. Allowed us to work with the 'Crimewatch' to build the most detailed reconstruction to date," he said. "I hope that when the public come to our research and our call to bring more information to take us further forward," he concluded.
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal. "This is far from being our only line of research and there will be more robot portraits of other people, who also have an interest in identifying. Such people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, or in the days before", he stressed the detective.
CdM
My friends, this was taken from Correio da Manhã newspaper:
Learn how is the primary suspect in the Maddie case
British police released two portraits robot , one 2007 and one current , the suspect is identifying priority for the investigation into the disappearance of Maddie .
Scotland Yard released two pictures of a robot man who considers it a priority to identify in the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago , British police said .
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz , in the Algarve , where the English child disappeared , the May 3, 2007 .
Both portraits will be shown on Monday night at the station program Crimewatch BBC public , dedicated to the issue of public appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police .
In the program, with Redwood , will be interviewed the child's parents , Kate and Gerry McCann , and shown a reconstruction of what has happened that night to try to encourage people with information on this man , to contact the police .
The program will also be made an appeal to people who have been in or near Praia da Luz and that have not been questioned by the police , to pass relevant information about the case .
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal .
British police revealed that about 35 people are working on this investigation , called "Operation Grange " , and shall have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence .
Besides Portugal , the British authorities sent letters to 30 other countries asking for information about people and are analyzing mobile phone data identified as being in the area and time of Madeleine's disappearance .
Meet the new face of the suspect in the Maddie case
Scotland Yard announced this Monday , two portraits robot of a man who considers it a priority to identify the scope of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago .
Police released pictures robot to identify man related with the Maddie case
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz , in the Algarve , where the English child disappeared that day , the May 3, 2007 .
The man was described as being white , with short brown hair and average height , age between 20 and 40 years and beardless face , referred to Scotland Yard Metropolitan Police in a statement .
The team is carrying out a review of the case is to focus attention on what has happened in the timeline that will succeed the " abduction " , thus considering " substantially higher " the testimony of these witnesses .
" While this man may or may not be the key to unlock this investigation, find him and talk to him is vital for us," said Detective Andy Redwood , in his statement.
Both portraits will be shown this Monday evening , the program Crimewatch BBC public station dedicated to the issue of public appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police .
In the issue , and Redwood , will be interviewed the child's parents , Kate and Gerry McCann , and shown a reconstruction of what has happened that night to try to encourage people with information on this man , to contact the police .
The program will also be made an appeal to people who have been in or near Praia da Luz and that have not been questioned by the police , to pass relevant information about the case .
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal .
" This is far from being our only line of research and there will be more robot portraits of other people , who also have an interest in identifying . Such people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance , or in the days before " , he stressed the detective .
British police says it has to work in this investigation , called "Operation Grange " about 35 people and we also have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence .
Besides Portugal , the British authorities sent letters to 30 other countries asking for information about people and are analyzing mobile phone data identified as being in the area and time of Madeleine's disappearance .
Forty- one people were classified by Scotland Yard " of interest " to the investigation , including an unspecified number of 15 Portuguese and British , on which the police think there are " reasons to suspect" , including precedents concerning pedophilia .
O Publico
Meet the new face of the suspect in the Maddie case
Scotland Yard announced this Monday , two portraits robot of a man who considers it a priority to identify the scope of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago .
Police released pictures robot to identify man related with the Maddie case
The portraits were drawn based on testimonials and descriptions of two different witnesses who have seen the man in the area of Praia da Luz , in the Algarve , where the English child disappeared that day , the May 3, 2007 .
The man was described as being white , with short brown hair and average height , age between 20 and 40 years and beardless face , referred to Scotland Yard Metropolitan Police in a statement .
The team is carrying out a review of the case is to focus attention on what has happened in the timeline that will succeed the " abduction " , thus considering " substantially higher " the testimony of these witnesses .
" While this man may or may not be the key to unlock this investigation, find him and talk to him is vital for us," said Detective Andy Redwood , in his statement.
Both portraits will be shown this Monday evening , the program Crimewatch BBC public station dedicated to the issue of public appeals for information concerning crimes under investigation by police .
In the issue , and Redwood , will be interviewed the child's parents , Kate and Gerry McCann , and shown a reconstruction of what has happened that night to try to encourage people with information on this man , to contact the police .
The program will also be made an appeal to people who have been in or near Praia da Luz and that have not been questioned by the police , to pass relevant information about the case .
The appeal will be made public by Scotland Yard in equivalent programs in TV channels from Germany, Holland and Ireland. The detective in charge of the investigation says he intends to do the same in Portugal .
" This is far from being our only line of research and there will be more robot portraits of other people , who also have an interest in identifying . Such people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance , or in the days before " , he stressed the detective .
British police says it has to work in this investigation , called "Operation Grange " about 35 people and we also have six members of the board of Faro Judicial Police deployed to assist in due diligence .
Besides Portugal , the British authorities sent letters to 30 other countries asking for information about people and are analyzing mobile phone data identified as being in the area and time of Madeleine's disappearance .
Forty- one people were classified by Scotland Yard " of interest " to the investigation , including an unspecified number of 15 Portuguese and British , on which the police think there are " reasons to suspect" , including precedents concerning pedophilia.
Euronews Portugal Euronews Portugal Bulletin 11:30 14th October
This was the sixth item on the 11:30 bulletin today after Italy Refugee Survivors US Crisis Syria India Bridge Disaster Russian Anti Migrant Riots French Elections
RTP RTP Informação News Bulletin 12:00 October 14th
Though it was third item on the schedule there was a very long section on the PT economy as they are undergoing major cuts to the pensions etc and at least six party spokesmen commented. So it was 20 minutes into the bulletin before any international news.
I cannot pick up a great deal from the spoken commentary but it does seem to cover all the material so far released by SY which is very promising. {The poster's comment, not mine.}
Sky Sky not impressed with Portuguese Reporting. http://news.sky.com/story/1154336/madeleine-mccann-appeal-falls-flat-in-portugal
Madeleine McCann: Appeal Falls Flat In Portugal Images of the new suspect are not headline news and the reconstruction is not airing prominently on Portuguese television. 1:33pm UK, Monday 14 October 2013
By Robert Nisbet, Europe Correspondent in Praia da Luz
The new Madeleine McCann appeal may have triggered headlines around the world but in Portugal the response has been muted.
While the e-fit images of the man detectives believe is "vital" to their enquiry can be found on the inside of national and regional newspapers, this is no longer front page news.
Paul Luckman, editor of the largest English language newspaper, The Portugal News, says the continued level of interest outside the country is "astounding".
"I don't think anyone can understand after six years how police based in England can find out what happened here. It doesn't really hang together," he said.
As for his readers: "They are fed up with it. They've lost interest in the whole case." E-fits of suspect police want to question Police say this man is of "vital importance" to their investigation
Many still bridle at suggestions from British journalists that the original Portuguese investigation was bungled.
In the hours after Kate McCann discovered her daughter was missing, police officers and local residents joined a search of the area.
Mr Luckman says at that time it was assumed the girl had woken and gone in search of her parents, who were dining at a nearby tapas restaurant.
He said child psychologists have determined young children on their own invariably walk downhill, so most of the effort was focused on the roads leading from the apartment towards the beach. Paul Luckman Paul Luckman says some cannot see how English police can solve the case
There was criticism that officers failed to consider an abduction and therefore did not seal the apartment to keep any possible evidence from being tainted.
Graham Roberts, who is retired and has lived here for 18 years, said people cannot understand why the details of the investigation and the case are still being "raked over".
"They are saying, 'why is it just this one case?' There are loads of other cases around the world, why has this one got such an ongoing high profile?"
One man who lives near the apartment but didn't want to be named said it was "crazy" that the reconstruction is not airing prominently on Portuguese television. Madeleine McCann missing Scene from a TV reconstruction of Madeleine's disappearance
"Surely the people who might be able to help identify these suspects are not holiday makers but the locals who live here day in, day out?" he said.
The case has certainly left some Portuguese police bitter about the perception of the force, as well as what they regard as outside interference.
One person described the original lead investigator Gonçalo Amaral as a "broken man". He is now being sued for libel by the McCanns over two books he wrote afterwards.
*****************************
As I said at the start, I am not a member, therefore I get the links from Google cache, and most links are incomplete. Carana was commenting on this page at StopTheMyths, so I would suggest that route if you want more.
Well researched, Shining.
The psychology is interesting.
Apparently what was worldwide news caused not too much of a ripple in Portugal ... the sympathies of some lying with the "broken man" ... and not the missing little girl; surely a strange apportioning of embarrassment and blame.
One can only hope that as the case has progressed the focus will have moved from past prejudices ... however, one must admire the power of propaganda on the national psyche, Viva Salazar! Viva Portugal!
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 11:50:25 AM
Indeed Brietta and we Brits are so much cleverer than our Potuguese counterparts. We would never be fooled the the propaganda eminating from our press, would we ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 12:20:00 PM
Thankyou ShiningInLuz for your research. I still don't see anything in portuguese which specifically appeals for a man who was walking down Rua Escola Primeira and possibly Travessa Das Escadhinas. I give an example in a current case in York of a missing Ms Lawrence. Police released an appeal in the national language for people to identify a man and the important thing is as well as publishing the cctv they also gave the location (street names) of the sighting.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 24, 2015, 01:09:01 PM
The Polícia Judiciária have primacy in Madeleine McCann's case.
Apparently Tannerman was ruled out of the inquiry by police work in Britain; perhaps judicial secrecy bars us from being told that similar diligence in Portugal has also ruled out Smithman.
Was that before or after he was deffed out by the PJ before the case was archived?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 01:36:02 PM
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2015, 05:07:49 PM
And yet they were both wrong as JT was utterly vindicated by the Met. She described accurately what she saw and when she saw it, the only problem was it wasn't the abductor she saw, but according to the Met it was a man carrying his own sleeping child. She wasn't to know that at the time, but in all other respects she was correct.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 05:13:35 PM
And yet they were both wrong as JT was utterly vindicated by the Met. She described accurately what she saw and when she saw it, the only problem was it wasn't the abductor she saw, but according to the Met it was a man carrying his own sleeping child. She wasn't to know that at the time, but in all other respects she was correct.
I absolutely agree Alfred. Do you think the same thing could happen with the Smith sighting - completely honest witnesses seeing an innocent father and daughter?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2015, 05:25:06 PM
I absolutely agree Alfred. Do you think the same thing could happen with the Smith sighting - completely honest witnesses seeing an innocent father and daughter?
Yes, I think it's possible.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 05:45:04 PM
Thankyou ShiningInLuz for your research. I still don't see anything in portuguese which specifically appeals for a man who was walking down Rua Escola Primeira and possibly Travessa Das Escadhinas. I give an example in a current case in York of a missing Ms Lawrence. Police released an appeal in the national language for people to identify a man and the important thing is as well as publishing the cctv they also gave the location (street names) of the sighting.
My recent post on my blog re this was to much the same end.
The effort to put Smithman into context, and to put this in the Portuguese language, registers roughly a zero on the Richter scale.
I have just posted the Crimewatch background, method and aim on my blog, in Portuguese, so perhaps we are up to a 1 on the zero to 10 scale.
Mind you, for many reasons, I think the scale is still registering a zero.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 07:16:07 PM
And yet they were both wrong as JT was utterly vindicated by the Met. She described accurately what she saw and when she saw it, the only problem was it wasn't the abductor she saw, but according to the Met it was a man carrying his own sleeping child. She wasn't to know that at the time, but in all other respects she was correct.
Tell me Alfie how were SY going to ditch Tannerman and concentrate on their main suspect without having to take legal action against Tanner ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Carana on September 24, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Then you tell me how else SY would be able to ditch Tannerman without calling Tanner a liar......she dreamt it perhaps ?
The Met thinks that Crècheman could have been Tannerman, hence the appeal to witnesses to concentrate on the Smithman timeframe.
That doesn't mean that someone could not have rung up to say that they'd definitely seen someone who didn't appear to be Crècheman, in which case the likelihood could be in more question than it was, yet Smithman still hasn't been identified (unless he has been since that appeal).
It's alo possible that neither sightings are relevant...
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 08:13:20 PM
The Met thinks that Crècheman could have been Tannerman, hence the appeal to witnesses to concentrate on the Smithman timeframe.
That doesn't mean that someone could not have rung up to say that they'd definitely seen someone who didn't appear to be Crècheman, in which case the likelihood could be in more question than it was, yet Smithman still hasn't been identified (unless he has been since that appeal).
It's alo possible that neither sightings are relevant...
Or it could be possible SY were stupid enough to believed that two separate men, almost identical in height, build and clothes were floating around town on the 3rd carrying almost identical children sporting no shoes or cover on a cold evening........no I doubt it as well.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 08:16:54 PM
(snip) ... It's alo possible that neither sightings are relevant...
Precisely Carana - Sherlock Holmes would have immediately recognised that all sightings of open-unconcealed-carrying are irrelevant, for they contradict the most basic characteristic of the criminal mind - to hide or disguise from direct view what he is doing.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Carana on September 24, 2015, 08:37:52 PM
Or it could be possible SY were stupid enough to believed that two separate men, almost identical in height, build and clothes were floating around town on the 3rd carrying almost identical children sporting no shoes or cover on a cold evening........no I doubt it as well.
At least one PT rentagob respected professional found the idea that an abductor would have risked simply walking off with an abducted child to be ridiculous. For some reason, no one questioned why it might equally appear equally ridiculous that various people would offer a false alibi for a dad carrying his dead child through the streets also with a risk of being seen.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 08:46:20 PM
At least one PT rentagob respected professional found the idea that an abductor would have risked simply walking off with an abducted child to be ridiculous. For some reason, no one questioned why it might equally appear equally ridiculous that various people would offer a false alibi for a dad carrying his dead child through the streets also with a risk of being seen.
Not sure of the relevance to my post though Carana. Do you think it's credible that SY, at one point, believed there were two almost identical men carrying an uncovered child around PDL on the 3rd ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Carana on September 24, 2015, 09:09:44 PM
Not sure of the relevance to my post though Carana. Do you think it's credible that SY, at one point, believed there were two almost identical men carrying an uncovered child around PDL on the 3rd ?
I have no idea what the Met may have thought. I would hope that once they interviewed the person they believe could have been Tannerman, they'd have also checked if he could also have been Smithman - not impossible if Tannerman aka likely Crècheman had some reason to stop off somewhere en route.
As the appeal was to concentrate on the later timeframe and Smithman, the two are presumably not the same unless Crècheman had said that he was also there and the Met have a reason to doubt it and are asking for corroboration.
In any case, just because there were two sightings of someone carrying a chid, it doesn't mean that either sighting is correct. Whoever took her out (assuming she didn't walk out by herself) could also be someone who no one happened to see, possibly going in a different direction.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 09:25:30 PM
So you don't feel it is rather a coincidence that both children was seen with no shoes, socks or slippers ( just a Madeleine would have been seen ) and wearing pyjamas almost identical to the pyjamas Madeleine was wearing ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 10:09:05 PM
What on EARTH are you on about?! Why would they have to take legal action against Tanner?
Well she was either lying or she actually saw someone but for SY to actually believe in Crechman they would have to have been stupid enough to believe to almost identical men were seen wearing identical clothes to Madeleine on the 3rd. And there's one thing SY is not and that's stupid.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 10:31:56 PM
Well she was either lying or she actually saw someone...
She actually saw someone. See the cutting edge documentary - her description of which side of the road the chat was, the TV football, the sighting, all 100% plausible, I have never seen a more honest witness.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 10:37:57 PM
... but for SY to actually believe in Crechman they would have to have been stupid enough to believe to almost identical men were seen wearing identical clothes to Madeleine on the 3rd. And there's one thing SY is not and that's stupid.
The child seen by JT had long pyjama legs with bands at the leg ends that look like turn-ups (completely different to the missing child's pyjamas with short legs and no bands/turn-ups).
The child seen by the irish group had long sleeves (completely different to the missing child's very short sleeves).
In neither sighting did the child clothes match the missing girl's clothes.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 11:27:26 PM
She actually saw someone. See the cutting edge documentary - her description of which side of the road the chat was, the TV football, the sighting, all 100% plausible, I have never seen a more honest witness.
With respect IYO Pegasus.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2015, 11:40:58 PM
She actually saw someone. See the cutting edge documentary - her description of which side of the road the chat was, the TV football, the sighting, all 100% plausible, I have never seen a more honest witness.
8((()*/
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 11:42:53 PM
The child seen by JT had long pyjama legs with bands at the leg ends that look like turn-ups (completely different to the missing child's pyjamas with short legs and no bands/turn-ups).
The child seen by the irish group had long sleeves (completely different to the missing child's very short sleeves).
In neither sighting did the child clothes match the missing girl's clothes.
I think the words used are 'possibly turn-ups'. Madeleine's pyjamas had a small frill at the end of the legs which Malay have been what Tanner was describing.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 11:48:39 PM
I think the words used are 'possibly turn-ups'. Madeleine's pyjamas had a small frill at the end of the legs which Malay have been what Tanner was describing.
Am I right in thinking the sketch artist was American ... I seem to recall that Jane was not entirely happy with some aspects of the sketch ... can't remember if it was said in her rog. or reported in a newspaper.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on September 24, 2015, 11:57:46 PM
Am I right in thinking the sketch artist was American ... I seem to recall that Jane was not entirely happy with some aspects of the sketch ... can't remember if it was said in her rog. or reported in a newspaper.
Melissa Little?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 12:03:33 AM
I think you are correct, Misty. For some obscure reason I had it in my head it was an FBI artist who produced the drawing. I've just Googled and I see Melissa contributed more than one.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 12:07:11 AM
Am I right in thinking the sketch artist was American ... I seem to recall that Jane was not entirely happy with some aspects of the sketch ... can't remember if it was said in her rog. or reported in a newspaper.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POWERPOINT.htm
All your answers here, Gerry McCann to the police, JT was not happy wth the face with a nose even though she later said she never saw a face, so Meliss blanked the nose
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 12:27:49 AM
All your answers here, Gerry McCann to the police, JT was not happy wth the face with a nose even though she later said she never saw a face, so Meliss blanked the nose
I knew Jane did not see the man's features which is why she could provide no details to enable a sketch. There was also some confusion regarding the torso in the sketch with some thinking it showed a pink blanket; but again that was vague because Jane's description was vague. It was the 'frill' or the 'cuff' on the pyjama bottoms which was the issue.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 12:49:03 AM
I knew Jane did not see the man's features which is why she could provide no details to enable a sketch. There was also some confusion regarding the torso in the sketch with some thinking it showed a pink blanket; but again that was vague because Jane's description was vague. It was the 'frill' or the 'cuff' on the pyjama bottoms which was the issue.
She actually described turn-ups (see statements) and that matches the bands on SY crecheman daughter clothing which look like turn-ups. A completely honest witness IMO.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 01:45:32 AM
I knew Jane did not see the man's features which is why she could provide no details to enable a sketch. There was also some confusion regarding the torso in the sketch with some thinking it showed a pink blanket; but again that was vague because Jane's description was vague. It was the 'frill' or the 'cuff' on the pyjama bottoms which was the issue.
Did yu also h know Gerry said Jane thought teethey man was an 80 percent match to her nose less man
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Lace on September 25, 2015, 08:15:40 AM
The child seen by JT had long pyjama legs with bands at the leg ends that look like turn-ups (completely different to the missing child's pyjamas with short legs and no bands/turn-ups).
The child seen by the irish group had long sleeves (completely different to the missing child's very short sleeves).
In neither sighting did the child clothes match the missing girl's clothes.
If Smith man had his arm around the child, I can't see how the witness saw long sleeves, probably saw the top of the pyjama sleeve and presumed they were long.
Jane said she thought the pyjama's had turn ups, but they were frilly bits on the end of the legs, which to her looked like turn ups.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2015, 09:59:29 AM
If Smith man had his arm around the child, I can't see how the witness saw long sleeves, probably saw the top of the pyjama sleeve and presumed they were long.
Jane said she thought the pyjama's had turn ups, but they were frilly bits on the end of the legs, which to her looked like turn ups.
"Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck."
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 03:38:18 PM
"Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck."
Correct. What is your opinion of the long sleeves Pathfinder?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 27, 2015, 09:37:53 PM
Wiki
"Electronic Facial Identification Technique (E-FIT, e-fit, efit) is a computer-based method of producing facial composites of wanted criminals, based on eyewitness descriptions.
Uses[edit]
Customers for this system exist in over 30 countries around the whole world. These include New Scotland Yard, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), New York Police Department, the Royal Stockholm Police, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Jamaica Constabulary Force.
E-FIT is used both for minor and serious crimes. In the United Kingdom, it is an ever-present feature on the BBC's Crimewatch television programme. The system is available in Spanish, German, English (both US and UK), French, Italian, Portuguese and Swedish.
The system first appeared in the late 1980s, programmed by John Platten and has since been progressively refined by Platten and latterly by Dr Matthew Maylin. E-FIT has developed a reputation as a highly reliable and flexible system for feature-based composite construction.
The widespread use of the original E-FIT approach is gradually being superseded by a new version of the program called EFIT-V. EFIT-V is a full-colour, hybrid system that offers increased flexibility and speed, allowing the face to be constructed using both evolutionary and systematic construction techniques.
Research[edit]
The E-FIT and Pro-fit systems used in the UK have been subjected to a number of formal academic examinations. In these studies, composites were correctly named,[clarification needed] either immediately or a few hours after construction, approximately 20% of the time.[1][2][3] In one study in which witnesses were required to wait two days before constructing a composite, which matches real use more closely, naming rates fell to only a few percent.[4]
See also[edit] Photofit Facial composite"
Roughly speaking, don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2016, 12:10:07 PM
If they were legitimately trying to find their daughter why not follow the Smithman lead more closely? Their own PI's believed he was a strong lead. In fact they thought he was such a strong lead that they had efits produced but the McCanns, perversely, threw limited funds at the sighting by an individual who their own PIs thought lacked credibility. Does that sound like a couple desperate to find their daughter.
Further, once the efits were produced the couple, who had staged a televised press conference to publicise the efit of an individual seen several weeks before the McCanns even arrived in PDL, uttered not a word about a sighting on the very night of Madeleine's disappreance and only moments from the apartment, a sighting they themselves had produced an efit from.
Further when, arguably, the best police force in the world agreed with the McCanns own PIs that the most important single piece of information provided to the investigation was the Smith sighting what did they McCanns do? All but ignored it.
Now does that sound like a couple desperate to find their daughter?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfie on June 29, 2016, 09:34:35 AM
I would imagine (but don't know) that the reason the McCanns were sceptical about the Smiths evidence is that one of them told the police he was 60-80% certain it was Gerry! I don't know about you, but if a witness was certain they saw me committing a heinous act and I knew it couldn't have been me then I might regard their evidence as somewhat inaccurate or unreliable.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on June 29, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
I would imagine (but don't know) that the reason the McCanns were sceptical about the Smiths evidence is that one of them told the police he was 60-80% certain it was Gerry! I don't know about you, but if a witness was certain they saw me committing a heinous act and I knew it couldn't have been me then I might regard their evidence as somewhat inaccurate or unreliable.
I believe the efits were produced after it became known that Martin Smith and his wife had claimed that the man they saw could have been Gerry so why have them produced, at great cost I would assume, if you believed the Smith's recollection was unreliable?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alfie on June 29, 2016, 11:22:27 AM
I believe the efits were produced after it became known that Martin Smith and his wife had claimed that the man they saw could have been Gerry so why have them produced, at great cost I would assume, if you believed the Smith's recollection was unreliable?
Conversely, why would you have e-fits produced at great expense of YOURSELF?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2016, 10:44:42 AM
And is this the last line of inquiry for SY? "Officers predict a long hard slog in their effort to solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann's disappearance."
Scotland Yard boss Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said investigators are following one remaining line of inquiry.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 10, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
And is this the last line of inquiry for SY? "Officers predict a long hard slog in their effort to solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann's disappearance."
Scotland Yard boss Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said investigators are following one remaining line of inquiry.
That pic looks like a few people...
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on July 11, 2016, 12:54:48 AM
Cant wait for SYs news if they ever do announce anything
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 11, 2016, 02:59:35 PM
Which photos? The PJ site still had her original little girl photo online the last I looked.
ETA: Just went to check again... no photo, but an interesting statement:
> Madeleine McCann
À semelhança do que sucede com todos os casos de crianças desaparecidas, não obstante o arquivamento formal do inquérito relativo ao seu desaparecimento, e como sempre foi publicamente afirmado, a Polícia Judiciária continuou a estar atenta a toda e qualquer informação suscetível de permitir conhecer o paradeiro da menor Madeleine McCann, as circunstâncias em que ocorreu o seu desaparecimento e a identidade do(s) seu(s) autor(es).
Com esse objetivo, pelo Diretor Nacional da Polícia Judiciária, em março de 2011, foi atribuída a uma equipa de investigadores da Diretoria do Norte a missão de reanalisar todo o vasto conjunto de informação constante do inquérito, com o objetivo de identificar aquela cujo aprofundamento se revelasse útil e possível.
Esse trabalho de reanálise, que decorreu durante os últimos dois anos e meio, permitiu conhecer novos indícios que, impondo a continuação da investigação, preenchem os requisitos estabelecidos pelo artº 279º nº 1 do Código de Processo Penal para a reabertura do inquérito.
Feita proposta em conformidade ao Exmo. Procurador da República na comarca de Portimão, foi a mesma deferida.
As is the case with all cases of missing children, despite the formal filing of the investigation of his disappearance, and as has always been publicly stated, the Judicial Police continued to be attentive to any sensitive information possible to know the whereabouts the minor Madeleine McCann, the circumstances in which his disappearance and identity (s) of their author (s) (s).
To this end, the National Judicial Police Officer in March 2011, was assigned to a team of researchers from the Northern Board's mission to re-examine the whole wide range of constant survey information in order to identify those whose penetration is reveal useful and possible.
This reanalysis work, which took place during the last two and a half years, helped identify new evidence that imposing further research, meet the requirements set by artº 279 paragraph 1 of the Criminal Procedure Code for the reopening of the investigation.
Proposal made pursuant to the Hon. Attorney in the district of Portimão, was granted the same.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2016, 06:38:49 AM
If anyone can show me any appeal in the portuguese language which shows the smithman efits and states the sighting location I will buy them a very large virtual Amereto.
Would this be because ....?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2016, 07:09:17 AM
Thankyou ShiningInLuz for your research. I still don't see anything in portuguese which specifically appeals for a man who was walking down Rua Escola Primeira and possibly Travessa Das Escadhinas. I give an example in a current case in York of a missing Ms Lawrence. Police released an appeal in the national language for people to identify a man and the important thing is as well as publishing the cctv they also gave the location (street names) of the sighting.
Have you got the spelling of those street names correct Rua Escola Primeira was not understood by Google Earth (GE). Travessa da Escola Primária is how it is spelt in the Smith statement. Do you know the GPS coordinates of this crossing Please?
"Travessa Das Escadhinas" is more correctly spelt "Travessa Das Escadinhas" Praia da Luz is locatable on GE
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2016, 03:00:32 PM
I would imagine (but don't know) that the reason the McCanns were sceptical about the Smiths evidence is that one of them told the police he was 60-80% certain it was Gerry! I don't know about you, but if a witness was certain they saw me committing a heinous act and I knew it couldn't have been me then I might regard their evidence as somewhat inaccurate or unreliable.
You are generally sound but (I think!) wide of the mark on this occasion, Alfie.
Look at how much space Kate devoted to the Smith sighting in her book.
They didn't publicise the efit because they had no mandate to (quite apart from disputes they had with the contractor that produced the efit, which might have complicated issues further).
Still, the McCanns made sure the eift was with Scotland Yard who (themselves) chose the moment to release it.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2016, 11:12:23 PM
You are generally sound but (I think!) wide of the mark on this occasion, Alfie.
Look at how much space Kate devoted to the Smith sighting in her book.
They didn't publicise the efit because they had no mandate to (quite apart from disputes they had with the contractor that produced the efit, which might have complicated issues further).
Still, the McCanns made sure the eift was with Scotland Yard who (themselves) chose the moment to release it.
The book is a message to the Smithman and family. Kate has an incredible focus of purpose.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 08, 2016, 11:14:36 PM
You are generally sound but (I think!) wide of the mark on this occasion, Alfie.
Look at how much space Kate devoted to the Smith sighting in her book.
They didn't publicise the efit because they had no mandate to (quite apart from disputes they had with the contractor that produced the efit, which might have complicated issues further).
Still, the McCanns made sure the eift was with Scotland Yard who (themselves) chose the moment to release it.
Only when forced to
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2016, 02:29:39 AM
For an investigation to assume that the solution must involve someone openly carrying a visible person through populated streets is absurd IMO.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 09, 2016, 02:39:29 AM
For an investigation to assume that the solution must involve someone openly carrying a visible person through populated streets is absurd IMO.
So be it, Amen. If that person is shown to be a caring person that is big plus in my book, if MM or his own daughter is taken to a medical center, (even if closed this is not his fault) and then onto where Christian Brothers were staying that is also positive. I don't see signs of evasive behaviour which would be more in line with some one with murderous intent. This is better than Smithman dodging and having sand on his hands. It gives us hope of looking for a living MM.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2016, 03:15:42 AM
The smithman efits are of a man, who was carrying a girl who was wearing a top with long sleeves. The missing girl however was wearing a top with extremely short sleeves.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 09, 2016, 04:47:37 AM
The smithman efits are of a man, who was carrying a girl who was wearing a top with long sleeves. The missing girl however was wearing a top with extremely short sleeves.
To change a top takes a matter of minutes, but to me that too is "caring" to stop the infant getting any colder. Who ever did that is not a cold hearted killer.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 09, 2016, 02:30:11 PM
You are generally sound but (I think!) wide of the mark on this occasion, Alfie.
Look at how much space Kate devoted to the Smith sighting in her book.
They didn't publicise the efit because they had no mandate to (quite apart from disputes they had with the contractor that produced the efit, which might have complicated issues further). Still, the McCanns made sure the eift was with Scotland Yard who (themselves) chose the moment to release it.
One of the detectives claimed he gave the report and efits to the Met;
Exton confirmed last week that the fund had silenced his investigators for years after they handed over their controversial findings. He said: “A letter came from their lawyers binding us to the confidentiality of the report.”
He claimed the legal threat had prevented him from handing over the report to Scotland Yard’s fresh investigation, until detectives had obtained written permission from the fund. A source close to the fund said the report was considered “hypercritical of the people involved” and “would have been completely distracting” if it became public. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic21297.html
Nowhere do the McCanns or their spokespersons specifically say it was them who gave the Met the report and efits.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2016, 03:14:27 PM
One of the detectives claimed he gave the report and efits to the Met;
Exton confirmed last week that the fund had silenced his investigators for years after they handed over their controversial findings. He said: “A letter came from their lawyers binding us to the confidentiality of the report.”
He claimed the legal threat had prevented him from handing over the report to Scotland Yard’s fresh investigation, until detectives had obtained written permission from the fund. A source close to the fund said the report was considered “hypercritical of the people involved” and “would have been completely distracting” if it became public. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic21297.html
Nowhere do the McCanns or their spokespersons specifically say it was them who gave the Met the report and efits.
Snip The Sunday Times has agreed to pay Kate and Gerry McCann £55,000 in libel damages (all of which they will donate to two charities - Missing People and the Joe Humphries Memorial Trust).
Mr and Mrs McCann's complaint related to an article by the Sunday Times' "Insight" team published on the front page of the newspaper in October 2013.
The article alleged that Mr and Mrs McCann and Madeleine's Fund had kept secret from the investigating authorities crucial evidence (primarily consisting of "e-fits" obtained by private investigators) relating to their daughter's abduction.
The Sunday Times' allegations were completely false. As the newspaper now accepts, there is no question of the McCanns having sought to suppress any evidence; indeed all of the material collated by the private investigators had been provided to the relevant Portuguese and Leicestershire police four years earlier.
The private investigators' report (including the e-fits) was also provided to the Metropolitan Police in 2011 shortly after the Met commenced its review into Madeleine's disappearance. http://www.carter-ruck.com/images/uploads/documents/McCann-Press_Release-03102014.PDF
Seems clear enough to me.
Scotland Yard would no doubt have come across the information (including the efits made four years previously) given to Leics and Portuguese police in those files. The full report commissioned by the McCanns and the Fund was handed to Scotland Yard in 2011 when they began collating evidence which enabled Madeleine's case to be reopened in 2013
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 09, 2016, 05:04:33 PM
Snip The Sunday Times has agreed to pay Kate and Gerry McCann £55,000 in libel damages (all of which they will donate to two charities - Missing People and the Joe Humphries Memorial Trust).
Mr and Mrs McCann's complaint related to an article by the Sunday Times' "Insight" team published on the front page of the newspaper in October 2013.
The article alleged that Mr and Mrs McCann and Madeleine's Fund had kept secret from the investigating authorities crucial evidence (primarily consisting of "e-fits" obtained by private investigators) relating to their daughter's abduction.
The Sunday Times' allegations were completely false. As the newspaper now accepts, there is no question of the McCanns having sought to suppress any evidence; indeed all of the material collated by the private investigators had been provided to the relevant Portuguese and Leicestershire police four years earlier.
The private investigators' report (including the e-fits) was also provided to the Metropolitan Police in 2011 shortly after the Met commenced its review into Madeleine's disappearance. http://www.carter-ruck.com/images/uploads/documents/McCann-Press_Release-03102014.PDF
Seems clear enough to me.
Scotland Yard would no doubt have come across the information (including the efits made four years previously) given to Leics and Portuguese police in those files. The full report commissioned by the McCanns and the Fund was handed to Scotland Yard in 2011 when they began collating evidence which enabled Madeleine's case to be reopened in 2013
They went after The Sunday Times but never explained why they hung onto the information for a year before giving it to the police. They didn't refute what Exton said, either, The report was 'handed to SY', but they don't actually say who's hands were involved.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 09, 2016, 05:31:11 PM
They went after The Sunday Times but never explained why they hung onto the information for a year before giving it to the police. They didn't refute what Exton said, either, The report was 'handed to SY', but they don't actually say who's hands were involved.
Those e-fits might never have seen the light of day had the Spanish police with SY in tow not raided the Barcelona offices of Metodo 3 and removed several boxes of files relating to their involvement in the Maddie case.
Metodo later revealed that they were prevented from releasing information about the case including a report which was highly critical of the parents. Oh my, gives a whole new meaning to no stone unturned!!
Snip The Sunday Times has agreed to pay Kate and Gerry McCann £55,000 in libel damages (all of which they will donate to two charities - Missing People and the Joe Humphries Memorial Trust).
Mr and Mrs McCann's complaint related to an article by the Sunday Times' "Insight" team published on the front page of the newspaper in October 2013.
The article alleged that Mr and Mrs McCann and Madeleine's Fund had kept secret from the investigating authorities crucial evidence (primarily consisting of "e-fits" obtained by private investigators) relating to their daughter's abduction.
The Sunday Times' allegations were completely false. As the newspaper now accepts, there is no question of the McCanns having sought to suppress any evidence; indeed all of the material collated by the private investigators had been provided to the relevant Portuguese and Leicestershire police four years earlier.
The private investigators' report (including the e-fits) was also provided to the Metropolitan Police in 2011 shortly after the Met commenced its review into Madeleine's disappearance. http://www.carter-ruck.com/images/uploads/documents/McCann-Press_Release-03102014.PDF
Seems clear enough to me.
Scotland Yard would no doubt have come across the information (including the efits made four years previously) given to Leics and Portuguese police in those files. The full report commissioned by the McCanns and the Fund was handed to Scotland Yard in 2011 when they began collating evidence which enabled Madeleine's case to be reopened in 2013
The Sunday Times over-egged the allegation and in doing so let the McC's off the hook. The e-fits were withheld for years after they were created and what's more nobody has ever explained why?
Martin Smith was so convinced he saw Gerry McCann that night that he phoned his local Guarda office in Drogheda and reported it.
The McCanns sponsor Brian Kennedy was so convinced by the sighting he went to see the Smiths but they refused to cooperate with him.
Later, McCann detectives Oakley International, namely, conman Kevin Halligen, persuaded the Smiths to create e-fits but they are never used and filed away.
Even later still, the McCanns Spanish detectives Metodo 3 get access to the e-fits but are prevented from releasing them.
It was only when Scotland Yard got their hands on them that DCI Redwood had his eureka moment and released them live on BBC Crimewatch.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2016, 05:50:14 PM
They went after The Sunday Times but never explained why they hung onto the information for a year before giving it to the police. They didn't refute what Exton said, either, The report was 'handed to SY', but they don't actually say who's hands were involved.
It cost the Sunday Times a lot of money not to mention lost editorial and journalistic credibility when they maintained the McCanns had withheld information from the police. Let it go ... they had to when the facts of the matter were produced - although it took legal action to do it.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2016, 05:56:49 PM
The Sunday Times over-egged the allegation and in doing so let the McC's off the hook. The e-fits were withheld for years after they were created and what's more nobody has ever explained why?
Leicestershire police and the Portuguese police had sat on them for those four years. No doubt they will have the explanation for why they did that.
It is a McCann bashing exercise which falls flat when it is known the appropriate police authorities had timeous full access.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 09, 2016, 05:59:28 PM
It cost the Sunday Times a lot of money not to mention lost editorial and journalistic credibility when they maintained the McCanns had withheld information from the police. Let it go ... they had to when the facts of the matter were produced - although it took legal action to do it.
Just pointing out the facts, Brietta. 1. The information was withheld for a year, the Times said five years. 2. There was no denial that the McCCanns threatened the investigators with legal action. 3. There was no denial that SY contacted the authors and requested a copy.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 09, 2016, 09:41:43 PM
Just pointing out the facts, Brietta. 1. The information was withheld for a year, the Times said five years. 2. There was no denial that the McCCanns threatened the investigators with legal action. 3. There was no denial that SY contacted the authors and requested a copy.
Bloody hell
What else is there to say?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2016, 10:52:02 PM
And for two years before that they sat in a file never seeing the light of day because they resembled Gerry McCann.
I think you've got it wrong about them sitting on them for two years, Angelo.
If there is the slightest resemblance between the the efits and Gerry McCann it has passed me by. However the stunning likeness between one in particular and another main player in the process jumps out of the page at one. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so they say.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2016, 11:12:03 PM
Just pointing out the facts, Brietta. 1. The information was withheld for a year, the Times said five years. 2. There was no denial that the McCCanns threatened the investigators with legal action. 3. There was no denial that SY contacted the authors and requested a copy.
Hmmm ... let's see. I seem to recall that the private investigation agency is the one and the same which defrauded numerous clients attracting the attention of the FBI. Wonder if they made the "Most Wanted" list?
**Snip Although the six-month Madeleine McCann deal was worth £500,000, it is understood only about £300,000 was paid before suspicions were raised and the contract terminated early.
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for Mr and Mrs McCann, said: "Due diligence was carried out before Oakley were employed on behalf of the Madeleine fund. Money was paid for work satisfactorily carried out in the early months but questions were raised later on and the contract was terminated. The matter is considered closed." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/6630110/Security-consultant-paid-300000-from-Madeleine-McCann-fund-charged-with-fraud.html
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2016, 11:21:09 PM
According to the ST, a spokesperson reportedly gave this reason for the fund deciding to not publish the 2 efits...
"The McCann fund source said ... the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised"
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2016, 11:31:01 PM
According to the ST, reportedly...
"The McCann fund source said the Oakley report was passed on to new private investigators"
Who were the next private investigation team after Oakley?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 09, 2016, 11:47:56 PM
If so, they didn't exactly overpublicise the efits in that May 2009 documentary they did
I think the more relevant issue is why the PJ didn't act upon receipt of the potentially crucial new evidence. Could it have been because they deemed the witness unreliable & the original testimonies would not have stood up in court? If so, what purpose would it have served releasing the efits on UK TV?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2016, 01:07:20 AM
The facts are that the mccanns were given efits in mid 2008 and SAT on them for a year
No stone unturned has been proven by THEIR actions to be a TOTAL JOKE in that they WITHHELD the efits from all police forces for a year
thats criminal imo
Perhaps brietta you can justify this, Im all ears
Eta lets not forget that it is a fact that another stone UNTURNED for five years was not informng the public of a potential lead....the smith sighting does seem to have been a bummer in this case
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 10, 2016, 01:27:04 AM
The facts are that the mccanns were given efits in mid 2008 and SAT on them for a year
No stone unturned has been proven by THEIR actions to be a TOTAL JOKE in that they WITHHELD the efits from all police forces for a year
thats criminal imo
Perhaps brietta you can justify this, Im all ears
Eta lets not forget that it is a fact that another stone UNTURNED for five years was not informng the public of a potential lead....the smith sighting does seem to have been a bummer in this case
If the Smiths did the efits in mid 2008, weren't they guilty of withholding evidence from the active PJ investigators?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2016, 01:30:51 AM
I think the more relevant issue is why the PJ didn't act upon receipt of the potentially crucial new evidence. Could it have been because they deemed the witness unreliable & the original testimonies would not have stood up in court? If so, what purpose would it have served releasing the efits on UK TV?
Why didnt LP act on it
And the purpose of releasing it in tv would be the same as doing any tv appeal, like moustache man like beckham woman like spottyman you know, no stone etc, but no smithman EVER, even if he was the only one around at the time, strange that, seems to me more stones got left unturned than turned, pfffttt
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2016, 01:32:54 AM
It is known the report and efits were as nov 2008 See post 1410 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2794.1410
I wonder why people here cant agree on the facts and have to rehash them ovef over and over with their own little spin
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Carana on August 10, 2016, 07:49:51 AM
Wiki's assessment of the ST article:
Exton submitted his report to Madeleine's Fund in November 2008, but the Fund told Exton that the report and its efits had to remain confidential. The relationship between the company and the Fund soured, in part because of a dispute over fees, and in part because the report was critical of the McCanns and their friends; it suggested that Madeleine may have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself through its unlocked patio doors.[50] The Fund passed the e-fits to the police – the Polícia Judiciária and Leicestershire police had them by October 2009, and Scotland Yard received them when they became involved in August 2011[176] – but did not otherwise release them. Kate McCann did not include them with the other images of suspects in her book, Madeleine (2011), although she suggested that both the Tanner and Smith sightings were crucial. Scotland Yard released the e-fits in 2013 for a BBC Crimewatch reconstruction.[50]
Oakley may well have been sacked in September, with some subsequent wrangling to get them to hand over the report / efits to the Fund (which apparently happened in November if the ST is correct). Not everything in that article appears to be accurate, so I have a doubt - perhaps unfounded - as to whether both the report and the efits were handed over at the same time. The outfit seems to have been such a mess that I find it feasible that the Fund had to chase up different people, whom Halligen may well not have paid.
Again if ST is correct, LP / PJ had them by Oct 2009, but didn't act on them. The case had been shelved but the PJ still had primacy over the investigation, with LP acting to provide assistance when requested to do so by the PJ. Did Paiva bother to submit it to the prosecutor to try to get the case reopened to investigate it, or did it go in his vertical filing tray along with everything else that came in, allegedly?
Without a UK open investigation, I'd have thought it difficult for LP to attempt to check any background (or cross-check details) of who Smithman might be. He might have been another crècheman for all anyone knew (or knows).
As to why Kate devoted 4 pages to Smithman without using the efits... I somewhat doubt that it was because one of them vaguely resembled Gerry. There could have been copyright issues; she could have been advised not to by the police pending a review / reopening of the case.
From other investigations that I've observed, the police make public appeals once they've got their ducks lined up: making sure that the individual is definitely of interest (and not someone already eliminated); know more or less how they're going to handle the information; and time the appeal to get as wide an audience as possible.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 10, 2016, 08:03:20 AM
The report, delivered to the McCanns in November 2008, recommended that the revised timeline should be the basis for future investigations and that the Smith E-Fits should be released without delay. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Times_27_10_2013.htm
That date was also not denied.
I wonder who the 'independent consultant' was who was employed by the Fund to liaise with Oakley and oversee the work they did?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 10, 2016, 08:22:30 AM
Exton submitted his report to Madeleine's Fund in November 2008, but the Fund told Exton that the report and its efits had to remain confidential. The relationship between the company and the Fund soured, in part because of a dispute over fees, and in part because the report was critical of the McCanns and their friends; it suggested that Madeleine may have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself through its unlocked patio doors.[50] The Fund passed the e-fits to the police – the Polícia Judiciária and Leicestershire police had them by October 2009, and Scotland Yard received them when they became involved in August 2011[176] – but did not otherwise release them. Kate McCann did not include them with the other images of suspects in her book, Madeleine (2011), although she suggested that both the Tanner and Smith sightings were crucial. Scotland Yard released the e-fits in 2013 for a BBC Crimewatch reconstruction.[50]
Oakley may well have been sacked in September, with some subsequent wrangling to get them to hand over the report / efits to the Fund (which apparently happened in November if the ST is correct). Not everything in that article appears to be accurate, so I have a doubt - perhaps unfounded - as to whether both the report and the efits were handed over at the same time. The outfit seems to have been such a mess that I find it feasible that the Fund had to chase up different people, whom Halligen may well not have paid.
Again if ST is correct, LP / PJ had them by Oct 2009, but didn't act on them. The case had been shelved but the PJ still had primacy over the investigation, with LP acting to provide assistance when requested to do so by the PJ. Did Paiva bother to submit it to the prosecutor to try to get the case reopened to investigate it, or did it go in his vertical filing tray along with everything else that came in, allegedly?
Without a UK open investigation, I'd have thought it difficult for LP to attempt to check any background (or cross-check details) of who Smithman might be. He might have been another crècheman for all anyone knew (or knows).
As to why Kate devoted 4 pages to Smithman without using the efits... I somewhat doubt that it was because one of them vaguely resembled Gerry. There could have been copyright issues; she could have been advised not to by the police pending a review / reopening of the case.
From other investigations that I've observed, the police make public appeals once they've got their ducks lined up: making sure that the individual is definitely of interest (and not someone already eliminated); know more or less how they're going to handle the information; and time the appeal to get as wide an audience as possible.
The Met had had them since 2011, but took
I think the unpaid sub-contractors chased the McCanns, rather than the other way round;
Several months later, one of the investigators subcontracted by Oakley contacted us to demand payment for his services. We had already settled Oakley’s bill for this work months before, but apparently the company had not paid him. He was not the only one. Over time several more unpaid subcontractors came to light. [Madeleine by Kate McCann]
Could that have been in November 2008 I wonder?
Whatever happened an opportunity was missed. The Oakley report dismissed the Tanner sighting and suggested that the Smith sighting should take precedence, with a corresponding move in the timing of the abduction to just before 10pm. Upon reflection SY agreed, so Oakley seem to have been looking in the right direction.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2016, 08:31:35 AM
I think the unpaid sub-contractors chased the McCanns, rather than the other way round;
Several months later, one of the investigators subcontracted by Oakley contacted us to demand payment for his services. We had already settled Oakley’s bill for this work months before, but apparently the company had not paid him. He was not the only one. Over time several more unpaid subcontractors came to light. [Madeleine by Kate McCann]
Could that have been in November 2008 I wonder?
Whatever happened an opportunity was missed. The Oakley report dismissed the Tanner sighting and suggested that the Smith sighting should take precedence, with a corresponding move in the timing of the abduction to just before 10pm. Upon reflection SY agreed, so Oakley seem to have been looking in the right direction.
Amazingly good detective work ... perhaps flawed by the failure to notice the the criminal at the heart of the organisation.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 10, 2016, 10:22:02 AM
Amazingly good detective work ... perhaps flawed by the failure to notice the the criminal at the heart of the organisation.
Are you suggesting that the sub-contractors were criminals? I thought they were also victims.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 10, 2016, 12:28:18 PM
Well if Oakley and The MPS were both looking in the same direction they were either both right or both wrong. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer pick. One being right and the other being wrong because it is bent would seem not to be among the choices.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2016, 12:57:11 PM
Exton submitted his report to Madeleine's Fund in November 2008, but the Fund told Exton that the report and its efits had to remain confidential. The relationship between the company and the Fund soured, in part because of a dispute over fees, and in part because the report was critical of the McCanns and their friends; it suggested that Madeleine may have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself through its unlocked patio doors.[50] The Fund passed the e-fits to the police – the Polícia Judiciária and Leicestershire police had them by October 2009, and Scotland Yard received them when they became involved in August 2011[176] – but did not otherwise release them. Kate McCann did not include them with the other images of suspects in her book, Madeleine (2011), although she suggested that both the Tanner and Smith sightings were crucial. Scotland Yard released the e-fits in 2013 for a BBC Crimewatch reconstruction.[50]
Oakley may well have been sacked in September, with some subsequent wrangling to get them to hand over the report / efits to the Fund (which apparently happened in November if the ST is correct). Not everything in that article appears to be accurate, so I have a doubt - perhaps unfounded - as to whether both the report and the efits were handed over at the same time. The outfit seems to have been such a mess that I find it feasible that the Fund had to chase up different people, whom Halligen may well not have paid.
Again if ST is correct, LP / PJ had them by Oct 2009, but didn't act on them. The case had been shelved but the PJ still had primacy over the investigation, with LP acting to provide assistance when requested to do so by the PJ. Did Paiva bother to submit it to the prosecutor to try to get the case reopened to investigate it, or did it go in his vertical filing tray along with everything else that came in, allegedly?
Without a UK open investigation, I'd have thought it difficult for LP to attempt to check any background (or cross-check details) of who Smithman might be. He might have been another crècheman for all anyone knew (or knows).
As to why Kate devoted 4 pages to Smithman without using the efits... I somewhat doubt that it was because one of them vaguely resembled Gerry. There could have been copyright issues; she could have been advised not to by the police pending a review / reopening of the case.
From other investigations that I've observed, the police make public appeals once they've got their ducks lined up: making sure that the individual is definitely of interest (and not someone already eliminated); know more or less how they're going to handle the information; and time the appeal to get as wide an audience as possible.
Bingo!
End of mystery.
Nothing 'withheld' for 5 years.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2016, 03:08:01 PM
Well if Oakley and The MPS were both looking in the same direction they were either both right or both wrong. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer pick. One being right and the other being wrong because it is bent would seem not to be among the choices.
Isn't hindsight a really exact science ... %£&)**#
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: John on August 10, 2016, 03:53:04 PM
Regardless of the dogs dinner article by the Sunday Times, the bottom line was that the e-fits were indeed withheld from public scrutiny for over 5 years. They were created by Halligen and Exton of Oakley in 2008 and not publicly released until October 2013.
Regardless of the dogs dinner article by the Sunday Times, the bottom line was that the e-fits were indeed withheld from public scrutiny for over 5 years. They were created by Halligen and Exton of Oakley in 2008 and not publicly released until October 2013.
They were produced right at the end of the shelved enquiry when it was considered (including the efits) that there was not enough material to continue investigating any leads.
You always needed the context and background of a live and on-going enquiry to investigate a sighting of a man carrying a child, in close proximity to apartment 5a, at just about the time Madeleine was abducted.
It really is that simple.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 10, 2016, 04:48:52 PM
They were produced right at the end of the shelved enquiry when it was considered (including the efits) that there was not enough material to continue investigating any leads.
You always needed the context and background of a live and on-going enquiry to investigate a sighting of a man carrying a child, in close proximity to apartment 5a, at just about the time Madeleine was abducted.
It really is that simple.
1. That is your opinion only. 2. This excuse was never offered by the McCanns. 3. It didn't stop them releasing other efits.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: John on August 10, 2016, 05:13:07 PM
The bit which doesn't fit for me is this.
Your young daughter disappears and two men are seen 45 minutes and 200 metres apart carrying a young female child clad similarly to the missing child. E-fits are provided for both men yet the e-fit with no facial detail (eggman) is released while two detailed e-fits relating to the second man are intentionally withheld.
One could be forgiven for thinking that they had no desire to find this man?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2016, 05:15:15 PM
Your young daughter disappears and two men are seen 45 minutes and 200 metres apart carrying a young female child clad similarly to the missing child. E-fits are provided for both men yet the e-fit with no facial detail (eggman) is released while two detailed e-fits relating to the second man are intentionally withheld.
Put those questions to Scotland Yard.
Scotland Yard chose the moment to release the efits, not the McCanns.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: John on August 10, 2016, 05:22:12 PM
Your young daughter disappears and two men are seen 45 minutes and 200 metres apart carrying a young female child clad similarly to the missing child. E-fits are provided for both men yet the e-fit with no facial detail (eggman) is released while two detailed e-fits relating to the second man are intentionally withheld.
One could be forgiven for thinking that they had no desire to find this man?
The egg efit was produced by the PJ from the information given by Jane Tanner very soon after she had seen the man but not his face. 2007.
The very detailed efits were produced by private detectives working for and paid for by Madeleine's fund from a collective? recollection of a sighting a year previously; when the sources had assured the PJ they could not recognise the facial features of the man they had seen. 2008.
In theory, those efits should also have been eggs.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 10, 2016, 07:06:10 PM
Isn't hindsight a really exact science ... %£&)**#
You mean hindsight like in the brigade who follow Nostradamus and Old Mother Shipton ?. Whether my comment is hindsight or not you can't have your bun and your ha'penny. They [MPS and Oakley] were either both right or both wrong. Time don't alter it though there are those I am sure will argue black's white it do.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 10, 2016, 09:04:52 PM
The egg efit was produced by the PJ from the information given by Jane Tanner very soon after she had seen the man but not his face. 2007.
The very detailed efits were produced by private detectives working for and paid for by Madeleine's fund from a collective? recollection of a sighting a year previously; when the sources had assured the PJ they could not recognise the facial features of the man they had seen. 2008.
In theory, those efits should also have been eggs.
Not if the theory states they are different people.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
The egg efit was produced by the PJ from the information given by Jane Tanner very soon after she had seen the man but not his face. 2007.
The very detailed efits were produced by private detectives working for and paid for by Madeleine's fund from a collective? recollection of a sighting a year previously; when the sources had assured the PJ they could not recognise the facial features of the man they had seen. 2008.
In theory, those efits should also have been eggs.
The smiths described his hair facial skin tone height whether he had a beard or glasses or not so HARDLY contenders for another eggman BRIETTA
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2016, 01:50:50 AM
She thinks that ... She does not remember seeing ... She did not notice ...
Nor could one of the witnesses provide a description or recognise from a photograph.
Mr Smith's description is not so much of who was there but who wasn't ... so in my opinion the Smith descriptions of facial features are indeed as much use as the egg drawing.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 02:35:01 AM
She thinks that ... She does not remember seeing ... She did not notice ...
Nor could one of the witnesses provide a description or recognise from a photograph.
Mr Smith's description is not so much of who was there but who wasn't ... so in my opinion the Smith descriptions of facial features are indeed as much use as the egg drawing.
No youre cherry picking, that really isnt allowed
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2016, 02:40:54 AM
C'mon Mercury ... they were unable to describe facial features. Hardly surprising a fortnight down the line. Even Mr Smith's 'revelation' moment did not rely on recognition of features but on the 'way' and 'look'.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 02:42:38 AM
C'mon Mercury ... they were unable to describe facial features. Hardly surprising a fortnight down the line. Even Mr Smith's 'revelation' moment did not rely on recognition of features but on the 'way' and 'look'.
Im just sayng there was more in their statements than an eggman
Is a year not a length of time? It's longer than a week, and 12 times longer than a month.
One of the canards promoted has been the idea that the damages trial was ruling on the truth ot otherwise of Amaral's book - sooo wrong.
In respect of the efits they were published just as soon as the (very proper!) requirements of any police investigation allowed, without the slightest delay or prevarication.
And Amaral was allowed to get away with spouting any (otherwise) libellous crap in his book he wanted, because Kate had the temerity to write a book of her own.
A marvellous thing, Portuguese law.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 14, 2016, 04:55:20 PM
In respect of the efits they were published just as soon as the (very proper!) requirements of any police investigation allowed, without the slightest delay or prevarication.
And Amaral was allowed to get away with spouting any (otherwise) libellous crap in his book he wanted, because Kate had the temerity to write a book of her own.
A marvellous thing, Portuguese law.
Not in Kate's book they weren't.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 05:01:40 PM
Kate would have flouted police procedure (and conceivably been in deep trouble with English law) had she published them in her book, whether she was in a position to or not (which is a whole, different, question).
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 14, 2016, 05:08:45 PM
The e-fits were created I believe in 2008 yet nobody bothered their backsides to publish them until three years later when Redwood had his eureka moment. I don't know of anyone who has ever gone to the bother of creating e-fits in a missing child case only to file them away for years. But then the McCanns have broken the mould more than once in this case in order to fit in with their own selfish priorities. They have constantly sought to discredit Smithman in favour of Tannerman contrary to the thinking at SY.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 05:13:11 PM
The e-fits were created I believe in 2008 yet nobody bothered their backsides to publish them until three years later when Redwood had his eureka moment. I don't know of anyone who has ever gone to the bother of creating e-fits in a missing child case only to file them away for years. But then the McCanns have broken the mould more than once in this case in order to fit in with their own selfish priorities.
When was the initial enquiry shelved?
2008.
You can't publish an efit that implies someone was carrying an abducted child away from an apartment other than when such an alleged event is being investigated by a competent police force.
You just can't do it.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: slartibartfast on August 14, 2016, 05:18:53 PM
You can't publish an efit that implies someone was carrying an abducted child away from an apartment other than when such an alleged event is being investigated by a competent police force.
You just can't do it.
Poppycock. If you get an efit produced it is up to you what you do with it.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 05:21:32 PM
You can't publish an efit that implies someone was carrying an abducted child away from an apartment other than when such an alleged event is being investigated by a competent police force.
You just can't do it.
Well of course you can't post an efit saying this man abducted our child...but you can say does anyone recognise this man we woud like to eliminate him from our enquiries... but then they were selling the tannerman as given ...I wonder if Tannerman felt he was being accused of abducting MM.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2016, 06:29:39 PM
The e-fits were created I believe in 2008 yet nobody bothered their backsides to publish them until three years later when Redwood had his eureka moment. I don't know of anyone who has ever gone to the bother of creating e-fits in a missing child case only to file them away for years. But then the McCanns have broken the mould more than once in this case in order to fit in with their own selfish priorities. They have constantly sought to discredit Smithman in favour of Tannerman contrary to the thinking at SY.
One wonders why DCI Redwood was so convinced that the association of a convicted fraudster in the production of the efits many months after the event in question had produced the real deal. They may have been constructed in collaboration with the Smith family ~ despite one calling to mind that apparently Mr Smith did not help when approached by Brian Kennedy on behalf of the McCann family ~ change of heart perhaps? Or was the DCI playing a long game here using the efits? which had perhaps been confirmed from another source turned up during Scotland Yard research into the case. In my opinion ... he wouldn't have given Halligen house room.
quote He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. Detective Branch Drogheda County Lough Dated 19/02/08 end quote http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P16/16_VOLUME_XVIa_Page_4134.jpg
**snip However, it was only later, when tape recordings of interviews undertaken in Praia da Luz were sent to Dr Parton and Mr Taylor, in Washington, that they started to fear the worst for the investigation. Mr Taylor said: 'The quality of the interviews was terrible, very amateurish. The noise in the background was bad, the interview questions were useless and the subjects were irrelevant. I told them to stop wasting time and money on such low-key figures - homeless people and receptionists who knew nothing.
**snip Dr Parton said: 'He has left a trail of debts across America and the UK. But the horrible truth is that he stole from the McCanns what they really couldn't afford - time.'
One wonders why DCI Redwood was so convinced that the association of a convicted fraudster in the production of the efits many months after the event in question had produced the real deal. They may have been constructed in collaboration with the Smith family ~ despite one calling to mind that apparently Mr Smith did not help when approached by Brian Kennedy on behalf of the McCann family ~ change of heart perhaps? Or was the DCI playing a long game here using the efits? which had perhaps been confirmed from another source turned up during Scotland Yard research into the case. In my opinion ... he wouldn't have given Halligen house room.
quote
He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. Detective Branch Drogheda County Lough Dated 19/02/08 end quote http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P16/16_VOLUME_XVIa_Page_4134.jpg
**snip However, it was only later, when tape recordings of interviews undertaken in Praia da Luz were sent to Dr Parton and Mr Taylor, in Washington, that they started to fear the worst for the investigation. Mr Taylor said: 'The quality of the interviews was terrible, very amateurish. The noise in the background was bad, the interview questions were useless and the subjects were irrelevant. I told them to stop wasting time and money on such low-key figures - homeless people and receptionists who knew nothing.
**snip Dr Parton said: 'He has left a trail of debts across America and the UK. But the horrible truth is that he stole from the McCanns what they really couldn't afford - time.'
Why would DCI Redwood not give house room to halligan, being a mere fraudster? are you not keen for DCI to give house room to the 'abductor' either, the police mix with all sorts- they have to goes with the job.
Kennedy had no right to approach witnesess. and some would suggest halligan wasn't the only one to make a few bob from Public money given to the 'family business' to: search for maddie, pay for trips to portugual, five star hotels, lawyers fees to sue people...to name a few.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2016, 08:30:22 PM
You can't publish an efit that implies someone was carrying an abducted child away from an apartment other than when such an alleged event is being investigated by a competent police force.
You just can't do it.
I think you need to support your assertions with more than 'because ferryman says so'. If the McCanns had published the efits in 2008 would they have been prosecuted? For what? Would they have been sued? By whom? Would that have flushed Smithman out of the woodwork?
The Cooperman sketch resulted in at least 44 sightings worldwide.One person said he worked in a shoe shop in Birmingham, others actually named their suspects with UK names. A good example of wasting police time imo. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GAIL_COOPER.htm
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 08:32:44 PM
I think you need to support your assertions with more than 'because ferryman says so'. If the McCanns had published the efits in 2008 would they have been prosecuted? For what? Would they have been sued? By whom? Would that have flushed Smithman out of the woodwork?
The Cooperman sketch resulted in at least 44 sightings worldwide.One person said he worked in a shoe shop in Birmingham, others actually named their suspects with UK names. A good example of wasting police time imo. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GAIL_COOPER.htm
Find a case in English police criminal enquiries where an efit was released without there being a live, and on-going, police enquiry.
I shan't waste my time looking, because I know there are none.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 08:40:12 PM
You have yet to explain your argument, just stated it as fact.
On the contrary.
I have explained the rationale very clearly.
To publish an efit (of a man carrying a child close to the scene of where a child is known to have been abducted) at the time the child is known to have been abducted is to accuse without basis (if there is not, contemporaneous with publication of the e-fit) a live, and on-going, police enquiry investigating the lead.
You just can't do that.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 14, 2016, 09:11:25 PM
One wonders why DCI Redwood was so convinced that the association of a convicted fraudster in the production of the efits many months after the event in question had produced the real deal. They may have been constructed in collaboration with the Smith family ~ despite one calling to mind that apparently Mr Smith did not help when approached by Brian Kennedy on behalf of the McCann family ~ change of heart perhaps? Or was the DCI playing a long game here using the efits? which had perhaps been confirmed from another source turned up during Scotland Yard research into the case. In my opinion ... he wouldn't have given Halligen house room.
quote He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. Detective Branch Drogheda County Lough Dated 19/02/08 end quote http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P16/16_VOLUME_XVIa_Page_4134.jpg
**snip However, it was only later, when tape recordings of interviews undertaken in Praia da Luz were sent to Dr Parton and Mr Taylor, in Washington, that they started to fear the worst for the investigation. Mr Taylor said: 'The quality of the interviews was terrible, very amateurish. The noise in the background was bad, the interview questions were useless and the subjects were irrelevant. I told them to stop wasting time and money on such low-key figures - homeless people and receptionists who knew nothing.
**snip Dr Parton said: 'He has left a trail of debts across America and the UK. But the horrible truth is that he stole from the McCanns what they really couldn't afford - time.'
What is clear is that Brian Kennedy got shown the door while Halligen was cooperated with fully. Not too surprising really as Halligen is from Dublin while Smith is from Drogheda just up the road.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 09:14:33 PM
To publish an efit (of a man carrying a child close to the scene of where a child is known to have been abducted) at the time the child is known to have been abducted is to accuse without basis (if there is not, contemporaneous with publication of the e-fit) a live, and on-going, police enquiry investigating the lead.
You just can't do that.
methinks you are making it up to suit as you go along If you werent youd have cites, do you? No!
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 09:33:45 PM
About the efits (perhaps more subconscious, that one)
About the current status of the Smiths, specifically Martin and his wife, (on the view that the man the Smiths all saw might have been Gerry)
About the true nature of the civil action taken by Kate and Gerry against Amaral.
Doubtless others.
That'll do.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 09:52:26 PM
No it wont do as you havent said what is beng suppressed, how can any of that be considered suppressed when theres been ample and sickeningly repetitive discussion over mnths and years,get a grip, dont spit dummy out because your personaal interpretation of facts has been booed by all on here
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2016, 09:56:32 PM
Truth about the dogs in the Zapata case not alerting to a body? But later proved to be correct. Truth about Eddie not alerting to cadaver odour in the Prout case until he later confessed and was proven to be correct.
MS did name Gerry in his statement. That's on record and has not changed. You don't know what his wife thinks.
True action against Amaral "He deserves to be miserable and feel fear." Rich coming from suspects who refused to answer police questions.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 10:05:52 PM
Truth about the dogs in the Zapata case not alerting to a body? But later proved to be correct. Truth about Eddie not alerting to cadaver odour in the Prout case until he later confessed and was proven to be correct.
MS did name Gerry in his statement. That's on record and has not changed. You don't know what his wife thinks.
True action against Amaral "He deserves to be miserable and feel fear." Rich coming from suspects who refused to answer police questions.
There was nothng whatsoever stoppng the mccanns releasing the efits in 2008, in fact they were told to by the investigators But they decided to hang on to them for over a year before giving them over to police, and then even have a confidentiality agreement that stopped scotland yard getting hold of them The bit i dont get is if the mccanns handed them to LP in 2009 why did SY have to get fund permission to access them in 2013 from another police force
Wtf
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2016, 10:31:14 PM
Truth about the dogs in the Zapata case not alerting to a body? But later proved to be correct. Truth about Eddie not alerting to cadaver odour in the Prout case until he later confessed and was proven to be correct.
MS did name Gerry in his statement. That's on record and has not changed. You don't know what his wife thinks.
True action against Amaral "He deserves to be miserable and feel fear." Rich coming from suspects who refused to answer police questions.
I think the Thomas Quick example is more applicable to PdL.
And another z (this time, the name of a dog) Zampo:
Find a case in English police criminal enquiries where an efit was released without there being a live, and on-going, police enquiry.
I shan't waste my time looking, because I know there are none.
In the UK it's normal for the police to release e fits. It's perfectly obvious that the pollce only do that if there's a live inquiry.
I haven't seen a case where relatives commission and release e fits until the McCann case. What they did [twice] they could have done three times.
You cannot provide cites to support your opinion, so by continuing the argument you're wasting your time and everyone else's. You're swimming against the tide again, ferryman. @)(++(*
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 15, 2016, 12:58:40 PM
In the UK it's normal for the police to release e fits. It's perfectly obvious that the pollce only do that if there's a live inquiry.
I haven't seen a case where relatives commission and release e fits until the McCann case. What they did [twice] they could have done three times.
You cannot provide cites to support your opinion, so by continuing the argument you're wasting your time and everyone else's. You're swimming against the tide again, ferryman. @)(++(*
In support of criminal enquiries.
But not apart from them
Unless you can provide a cite otherwise.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 15, 2016, 02:19:01 PM
I don't have to provide cites, you do. I'll stick with what their 'source' said. On the report;
the report was considered “hypercritical of the people involved” and “would have been completely distracting” if made public.
The McCann fund source said;
the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Times_27_10_2013.htm
There you are; it's quite clear and easily understood. Nothing to do with police investigations, just a decision by the McCanns and their supporters for the reasons given.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 15, 2016, 02:25:17 PM
I don't have to provide cites, you do. I'll stick with what their 'source' said. On the report;
the report was considered “hypercritical of the people involved” and “would have been completely distracting” if made public.
The McCann fund source said;
the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Times_27_10_2013.htm
There you are; it's quite clear and easily understood. Nothing to do with police investigations, just a decision by the McCanns and their supporters for the reasons given.
Efits are used to support live and on-going criminal enquiries.
They aren't used for any purpose.
To have published an efit of (potentially!) Madeleine's abductor -- apart from a live and ongoing criminal enquiry -- would have been crass, bordering on criminal, irresponsibility.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 15, 2016, 09:35:41 PM
Efits are used to support live and on-going criminal enquiries.
They aren't used for any purpose.
To have published an efit of (potentially!) Madeleine's abductor -- apart from a live and ongoing criminal enquiry -- would have been crass, bordering on criminal, irresponsibility.
Dave Edgar and the other one supported by Mitchell did exactly that when there was no police investigation
Those PIs had been given the oakley report so it's surprising they didn't use two of the efits in it.
Source: "The McCann fund source said the Oakley report was passed on to new private investigators" (ST 27 Oct 2013)
You found the saga of the paddling 'priest' intriguing. Seriously, Pegasus, given the history would you have used anything emanating from that proven unreliable source with any degree of confidence? I certainly wouldn't have ... and particularly not efits apparently sourced from people who were on record as being unable to help the Portuguese police in the first instance.
I wonder if the information passed on to new investigators consisted of a 'catch up' on those telephone contacts Oakley ignored (As we know ~ one of the criticisms of Oakley which initially led to the loss of confidence and the parting of the ways between employer and contractor lay in the latter's failure to pick up calls to a hotline set up for information).
**snip But The Mail on Sunday can reveal today that despite setting up a hotline for potential informants and witnesses, none of the hundreds of calls received by a call centre hired by Halligen, 48, was listened to by Oakley investigators - and Halligen also bragged to his colleagues that he had executed a series of peculiar tactics to find Madeleine.
He claimed to have hired an actor to pretend to be a 'drunken priest' who would seek confessions as he toured the bars of Praia da Luz, the resort where Madeleine disappeared in May 2007.
And he told colleagues that a family with a Madeleine lookalike daughter had been paid to set up home in a nearby resort in order to tempt out a potential kidnapper.
Meanwhile, a paper trail obtained by The Mail on Sunday shows that Halligen, a former director of a catering firm, launched an extraordinary spending spree on hotels, cigar bars, restaurants and luxury goods while he was in the pay of the Find Madeleine Fund, and in the period shortly after he was fired last summer.
Documents show that in his first two months as lead investigator in the search for Madeleine, Halligen spent £7,000 on a personal chauffeur. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html#ixzz4HRtLU6O8
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2016, 01:14:09 AM
You found the saga of the paddling 'priest' intriguing. Seriously, Pegasus, given the history would you have used anything emanating from that proven unreliable source with any degree of confidence? I certainly wouldn't have ... and particularly not efits apparently sourced from people who were on record as being unable to help the Portuguese in the first instance.
I wonder if the information passed on to new investigators consisted of a 'catch up' on those telephone contacts Oakley ignored (As we know ~ one of the criticisms of Oakley which initially led to the loss of confidence and the parting of the ways between employer and contractor lay in the latter's failure to pick up calls to a hotline set up for information).
**snip But The Mail on Sunday can reveal today that despite setting up a hotline for potential informants and witnesses, none of the hundreds of calls received by a call centre hired by Halligen, 48, was listened to by Oakley investigators - and Halligen also bragged to his colleagues that he had executed a series of peculiar tactics to find Madeleine.
He claimed to have hired an actor to pretend to be a 'drunken priest' who would seek confessions as he toured the bars of Praia da Luz, the resort where Madeleine disappeared in May 2007.
And he told colleagues that a family with a Madeleine lookalike daughter had been paid to set up home in a nearby resort in order to tempt out a potential kidnapper.
Meanwhile, a paper trail obtained by The Mail on Sunday shows that Halligen, a former director of a catering firm, launched an extraordinary spending spree on hotels, cigar bars, restaurants and luxury goods while he was in the pay of the Find Madeleine Fund, and in the period shortly after he was fired last summer.
Documents show that in his first two months as lead investigator in the search for Madeleine, Halligen spent £7,000 on a personal chauffeur. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html#ixzz4HRtLU6O8
Did you notice this bit Brietta? "the director of operations at .. the US firm that managed the Find Madeleine phone line, revealed ... ' We are not sure whether Halligen provided our report to the family or to the trust or to those working with them or to the teams working after him, because no one came back to us. ' "
Therefore IMO the situation in about Aug 2010 (the date of the Mail investigative article) was that "no one" (not Oakley, nor the next teamt of investigators, nor the fund) had got in touch with the call center company to log all the calls.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 16, 2016, 02:15:06 AM
Those PIs had been given the oakley report so it's surprising they didn't use two of the efits in it.
Source: "The McCann fund source said the Oakley report was passed on to new private investigators" (ST 27 Oct 2013)
Indeed
Another pointer to the fact the mccanns didnt want to publicise the smiths efits My point was towards ferryman though who claims no image is allowed and its criminal irresponsibility to post one if no police force is investigating, those same PIs released scar face...hmmm
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 16, 2016, 02:19:25 AM
That depends on whether you equate "critical of the group" with "waste of paper".
The Oakley report (which was handed to the next set of PIs) must have included the 2 smithman efits.
The report was deemed "hypercritical of the people involved". Does that necessarily mean the McCanns or was it their friends? Maybe it was actually referring to the Portuguese police or the team surrounding the McCanns. For the report to be considered a major distraction there must have been something highly damning in it. As per the previous post - did Oakley ever pass on the efits or the call centre records or were the Fund directors only made aware of their existence when people started chasing unpaid bills?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 16, 2016, 02:26:29 AM
the fund was purported to give em half a million quid, its their responsibility to check on them at every turn They didnt They got nothing They complained but didnt sue sounds dodgy to me
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 16, 2016, 02:32:26 AM
Did you notice this bit Brietta? "the director of operations at .. the US firm that managed the Find Madeleine phone line, revealed ... ' We are not sure whether Halligen provided our report to the family or to the trust or to those working with them or to the teams working after him, because no one came back to us. ' "
Therefore IMO the situation in about Aug 2010 (the date of the Mail investigative article) was that "no one" (not Oakley, nor the next teamt of investigators, nor the fund) had got in touch with the callcenter company to lsten to the calls.
Another agency which had not been paid for the work they had carried out despite Halligen taking £300,000. The man was an utter disaster who seemed able to defraud all with whom he came into contact without the slightest twinge of concience.
The most poignant quote from that article is the one made by Dr Parton ... "He has left a trail of debts across America and the UK. But the horrible truth is that he stole from the McCanns what they really couldn't afford - time." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html#ixzz4HS8bedkn
This man who used and abused the fund money for a missing child ... a very successful con artist of the most devious kind ... provided efits to the family of the missing child.
Why on earth do you suppose that the McCanns and the Fund should suppose that information should have been any more reliable than anything else associated with Halligen. They have been derided for "falling for" incompetent private investigators ~ although in Halligen's case they had him sussed before most perhaps including the FBI. Oakley's work was unsatisfactory which is why they were sacked ... and subsequent events proved that was the correct course of action ... and they must have been highly suspicious of any materials from that source. That suspicion was very quickly confirmed as being justified. Why would any reasonable person construct a campaign around any of the material provided by a dyed in the wool dishonest and dishonourable con artist? They must have been relieved they hadn't fallen for the deceit.
Latterly, DCI Redwood perhaps had more information about these efits than was previously available ... and his use of them no doubt had purpose based on his professional judgement. But I think the McCanns would have been very foolish indeed to rush into promoting them as part of Madeleine's campaign ... given the source how would they have explained them and in what way could they have used them?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 16, 2016, 02:42:02 AM
The report was deemed "hypercritical of the people involved". Does that necessarily mean the McCanns or was it their friends? Maybe it was actually referring to the Portuguese police or the team surrounding the McCanns. For the report to be considered a major distraction there must have been something highly damning in it. As per the previous post - did Oakley ever pass on the efits or the call centre records or were the Fund directors only made aware of their existence when people started chasing unpaid bills?
Excellent points, Misty. The man was an unprofessional fantasist ... the Lord alone knows what he had put into the report.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 16, 2016, 09:24:56 AM
Excellent points, Misty. The man was an unprofessional fantasist ... the Lord alone knows what he had put into the report.
Halligen was indeed unreliable, but it was his sub-contractors who produced the report and e-fits, not him. He was sacked in Sept 2008, and the McCanns were given the report, including the e-fits, in Nov 2008. Clearly not by Halligen then.
One of the sub-contractors had an impressive CV. He had the Queen's Police Medal and an OBE. At the time he was awarded the OBE he was listed as an MOD employee, Grade 7, which is the equivalent of a Colonel in the Army. He was, allegedly, also a victim of Halligen.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 16, 2016, 10:08:44 AM
Exton submitted his report to Madeleine's Fund in November 2008, but the Fund told Exton that the report and its efits had to remain confidential. The relationship between the company and the Fund soured, in part because of a dispute over fees, and in part because the report was critical of the McCanns and their friends; it suggested that Madeleine may have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself through its unlocked patio doors.[50] The Fund passed the e-fits to the police – the Polícia Judiciária and Leicestershire police had them by October 2009, and Scotland Yard received them when they became involved in August 2011[176] – but did not otherwise release them. Kate McCann did not include them with the other images of suspects in her book, Madeleine (2011), although she suggested that both the Tanner and Smith sightings were crucial. Scotland Yard released the e-fits in 2013 for a BBC Crimewatch reconstruction.[50]
As to why Kate devoted 4 pages to Smithman without using the efits... I somewhat doubt that it was because one of them vaguely resembled Gerry. There could have been copyright issues; she could have been advised not to by the police pending a review / reopening of the case.
So Exton and Halligen of Oakley also favoured the woke and wandered and met with an accident scenario to the exclusion of an abduction?
Point being that an abduction would get the McCanns off the neglect hook while woke and wandered wouldn't. If it is ever proven that Maddie got out and met with an accident the olde neglect factor comes back to play.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 16, 2016, 10:27:00 AM
Well? Ferryman? Ignoring a post in reponse to your claims, which youve read is a sign of....???
Only just come across this.
The opening sentence of the article answers your question:
(Key words highlighted):
Quote
THREE witnesses saw a scary weirdo who may have masterminded the abduction of Madeleine McCann, it was revealed last night.
Again, you have efits of men who (conceivably, not necessarily) may have had something to do with Madeleine's abduction, the difference (yet again) between intelligence and evidence and (yet again) full justification in publishing that efit (when it was published).
The Smith sighting was (potentially) actually of Madeleine's abduction.
You need the context of a live and on-going police enquiry to publish such an efit.
simple as that.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 16, 2016, 10:33:42 AM
The opening sentence of the article answers your question:
(Key words highlighted):
Again, you have efits of men who (conceivably, not necessarily) may have had something to do with Madeleine's abduction, the difference (yet again) between intelligence and evidence and (yet again) full justification in publishing that efit (when it was published).
The Smith sighting was (potentially) actually of Madeleine's abduction.
You need the context of a live and on-going police enquiry to publish such an efit.
simple as that.
According to Amaral the former PJ coordinator, the parents could have asked for the enquiry to be reopened at any time under Portuguese law so your argument about a live investigation fails.
The e-fits and the damning report were withheld for very obvious reasons, none of which had anything to do with finding Maddie.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 16, 2016, 10:36:55 AM
According to Amaral the former PJ coordinator, the parents could have asked for the enquiry to be reopened at any time under Portuguese law so your argument about a live investigation fails.
The e-fits and the damning report were withheld for very obvious reasons.
According to Amaral ....
Come on.
According to Amaral, Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead.
The penultimate sentence of Harrison's (final) report makes plain Harrison had no clue (what happened to Madeleine).
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 16, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
According to Amaral, Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead.
The penultimate sentence of Harrison's (final) report makes plain Harrison had no clue (what happened to Madeleine).
Amaral might be many things agreed but he was a high ranking detective who knew the law. If he says the parents could have had the investigation reopened I believe him. We know why they didn't want the Portuguese to reopen though don't we?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 16, 2016, 10:46:02 AM
Amaral might be many things agreed but he was a high ranking detective who knew the law. If he says the parents could have had the investigation reopened I believe him. We know why they didn't want the Portuguese to reopen though don't we?
Fresh evidence was needed to re-open the investigation. Hard on the heels of a shelved enquiry (and shelved for precisely the reason that the competent authorities investigating it were satisfied all viable leads had been exhausted) where, in a space of about 3 weeks, to you suppose Kate and Gerry might have manged to rustle up sufficient evidence to (persuade the authorities) the enquiry might continue from?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 16, 2016, 10:48:59 AM
Fresh evidence was needed to re-open the investigation. Hard on the heels of a shelved enquiry (and shelved for precisely the reason that the competent authorities investigating it were satisfied all viable leads had been exhausted) where, in a space of about 3 weeks, to you suppose Kate and Gerry might have manged to rustle up sufficient evidence to (persuade the authorities) the enquiry might continue from?
Was the identification of a potential suspect (Smithman) in an alleged child abduction case not sufficient need to reopen?
Did the parents even try? Or was it more of a case of self preservation at all cost?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 16, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Was the identification of a potential suspect (Smithman) in an alleged child abduction case not sufficient need to reopen?
Did the parents even try? Or was it more of a case of self preservation at all cost?
We've been through all that. It isn't clear when the Smiths produced the efit, but we can be sure that at the end of January 2008 they hadn't, because in his statement to the Irish Gardia Police at that date, Mr Smith said that he had been approached by Brian Kennedy to produce one, but had refused. It has to be have been at some point after Mr Smith realised he was wrong to suppose the man was Gerry that he agreed.
And seeing as the Portuguese police (certainly back then) didn't use e-fits, and their secrecy laws would not allow them to be publicly displayed, that would be a bit of a dead-duck (so far as the Portuguese were concerned).
It was the English police who used the Smith efit as the centrepiece of the fresh enquiry (much longer than 20 days after the shelving of the first enquiry).
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Benice on August 16, 2016, 11:04:47 AM
Amaral might be many things agreed but he was a high ranking detective who knew the law. If he says the parents could have had the investigation reopened I believe him. We know why they didn't want the Portuguese to reopen though don't we?
The McCanns must have had zero trust in the competence of the PJ after the way they had handled the case. No normal person would feel any different IMO. It's not rocket science.
What confidence would you have in a police force which claimed that a dream had changed the whole direction of a case?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2016, 11:33:12 AM
Smithman is unidentified. They all could have been looking for him in 2008. Amaral was off the case by then and the McCanns wrote a letter to Rebelo.
4th December 2007 Dear Mr Rebelo,
It would be good for Madeleine if we could all work together to help find her and the person(s) who took her. I would be very grateful if you could give some thought and consideration to my letter and look forward to your reply. I can only ask. Yours sincerely, Kate McCann
The McCanns must have had zero trust in the competence of the PJ after the way they had handled the case. No normal person would feel any different IMO. It's not rocket science.
What confidence would you have in a police force which claimed that a dream had changed the whole direction of a case?
Maybe had the parents cooperated with the local police instead of trying to undermine them?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 16, 2016, 11:40:00 AM
Smithman is unidentified. They all could have been looking for him in 2008. Amaral was off the case by then and the McCanns wrote a letter to Rebelo.
4th December 2007 Dear Mr Rebelo,
It would be good for Madeleine if we could all work together to help find her and the person(s) who took her. I would be very grateful if you could give some thought and consideration to my letter and look forward to your reply. I can only ask. Yours sincerely, Kate McCann
What steps did the Amaral investigation take to publicise and investigate the Smith sighting between the date it was first reported and the date of Mr Smith's misidentification of the carrier? The three Smith reenactment was conducted in secret.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2016, 11:53:03 AM
What steps did the Amaral investigation take to publicise and investigate the Smith sighting between the date it was first reported and the date of Mr Smith's misidentification of the carrier? The three Smith reenactment was conducted in secret.
Amaral was in the process of bringing these crucial witnesses back but was removed - he was investigating this lead further but was stopped. Rebelo was now in-charge and after Kate's letter to him of all working together that didn't happen did it when it came to releasing Smithman efits in 2008 and finding that man? SY had to get written permission from the fund to see the hidden file and release the efits in 2013 - over 6 years after the disappearance.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 16, 2016, 12:10:07 PM
Amaral was in the process of bringing these crucial witnesses back but was removed - he was investigating this lead further but was stopped. Rebelo was now in-charge and after Kate's letter to him of all working together that didn't happen did it when it came to releasing Smithman efits in 2008 and finding that man? SY had to get written permission from the fund to see the hidden file and release the efits in 2013 - over 6 years after the disappearance.
So we are agreed that Mr Amaral totally ignored the "crucial" Smith sighting until Mr Smith's mistaken identification was reported to the police (see the account of Mr McCluskey's mistaken identity in the files).
The Amaral investigation ignored the Smiths between May and September of 2007. Why was that? Had they looked at it and discarded it or was it sheer incompetence?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 16, 2016, 01:06:40 PM
So we are agreed that Mr Amaral totally ignored the "crucial" Smith sighting until Mr Smith's mistaken identification was reported to the police (see the account of Mr McCluskey's mistaken identity in the files).
The Amaral investigation ignored the Smiths between May and September of 2007. Why was that? Had they looked at it and discarded it or was it sheer incompetence?
That hadn't occurred to me before.
But it's right.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
So we are agreed that Mr Amaral totally ignored the "crucial" Smith sighting until Mr Smith's mistaken identification was reported to the police (see the account of Mr McCluskey's mistaken identity in the files).
The Amaral investigation ignored the Smiths between May and September of 2007. Why was that? Had they looked at it and discarded it or was it sheer incompetence?
They were investigating Tannerman who the group thought had taken Madeleine. Robert Murat became the first arguido because of that sighting. Photoman was investigated and he matched that sighting. When that line led nowhere and the investigation changed, Martin Smith contacted the authorities again in Sept 2007 with new information - he saw an action replay of 3 May. Amaral had to investigate this lead further and any other strange sightings of the new arguido e.g. a man seen outside a block of pink apartments. Amaral was removed before completing his investigation into this lead. SY are back to where he was in 2007.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 16, 2016, 01:27:38 PM
That was a great observation by Brietta, and I can see the reasoning. Up till now GA had been thinking Kate and gerry had done the abduction themselves but at this stage he has found he was going in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 16, 2016, 01:46:46 PM
The opening sentence of the article answers your question:
(Key words highlighted):
Again, you have efits of men who (conceivably, not necessarily) may have had something to do with Madeleine's abduction, the difference (yet again) between intelligence and evidence and (yet again) full justification in publishing that efit (when it was published).
The Smith sighting was (potentially) actually of Madeleine's abduction.
You need the context of a live and on-going police enquiry to publish such an efit.
simple as that.
Ah yes, the work of 'rising star' Dave Edgar. That's how his career in the Ulster Constabulary was described by The Mirror. He spent 22 years in the Royal Ulster Constabulary with one promotion; to Sergeant. He didn't rise very fast, did he? He did better in eight years with Cheshire Police; two promotions, retiring as a Detective Inspector; a 'middle management position. An OK CV but not outstanding.
Mr Edgar, who now runs the Alpha Investigations Group with business partner Arthur Cowley, was asked by Gerry and Kate McCann to find their daughter after failures other investigators. The Mirror, 14th May 2009
Not true, but mot corrected until the fuss over the lack of investigation surrounding the 'Beckham' e-fit;
Mr Cowley, 57, is sole director of Alpha Investigation Group, based in Flintshire, North Wales.
Asked last night why Mr Cowley and his colleague had not spoken to the port authorities, Mr Edgar said: 'My instructions were that they couldn't get through security at the marina at the time. I've got to take that at face value. We are a small team. We are dealing with finite resources and will have to manage with that.'
He said Mr Cowley's company had no connection with the Madeleine investigation. 'I am employed by the McCann family and I pick my staff,' he added. Mail on Sunday August 2009
Cowley's company (Alphaig Limited) was registered in 2009 by Andrew Dickman whose address was Latium Group, Brian Kennedy's company. There's a clear connection with the Madeleine investigation right there. Andrew Dickman was the Managing Director of Patrick Properties, owned by Latiium. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id362.html
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2016, 02:40:55 PM
I've read their statements. Police get lots of reports/statements to go through so it's not unusual at all like the sightings people claim are Madeleine but are not. The McClusky lead was investigated and it was not the McCanns. A large group of witnesses saw a man carrying a lookalike child near to the crime scene at the relevant time. That man has not come forward. The Smiths sighting is still on-going so IMO is the one remaining line of inquiry.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 16, 2016, 05:10:41 PM
I've read their statements. Police get lots of reports/statements to go through so it's not unusual at all like the sightings people claim are Madeleine but are not. The McClusky lead was investigated and it was not the McCanns. A large group of witnesses saw a man carrying a lookalike child near to the crime scene at the relevant time. That man has not come forward. The Smiths sighting is still on-going so IMO is the one remaining line of inquiry.
The point is PF that the Polícia Judiciária managed to trace and eliminate Mr and Mrs McClusky's sighting from the inquiry.
They didn't pass that information back to the witnesses. With the result that when the witness saw Dr Gerald McCann exiting the plane carrying his son it brought back the sighting of the man he had seen staggering up a grassy slope carrying a child over his left shoulder who was neither moving or making any distress noises.
If the PJ had been unable to trace and eliminate the man described by Mr McCluskey ... he would have been an unknown entity. Just as the man described by Mr Smith is unknown.
Over the past ten years you and many others would have been using information supplied in good faith ... by two different witnesses ... but the wrong information.
The PJ dismissed the McCluskey mistaken identity ... because they had already investigated and eliminated it.
The PJ dismissed the same wrong claim from Smith ... because they had investigated it and eliminated it having established that it is not possible for the same person to be in two places at one and the same time. https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pj_report_english_translation.pdf
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2016, 05:52:32 PM
The point is PF that the Polícia Judiciária managed to trace and eliminate Mr and Mrs McClusky's sighting from the inquiry.
They didn't pass that information back to the witnesses. With the result that when the witness saw Dr Gerald McCann exiting the plane carrying his son it brought back the sighting of the man he had seen staggering up a grassy slope carrying a child over his left shoulder who was neither moving or making any distress noises.
If the PJ had been unable to trace and eliminate the man described by Mr McCluskey ... he would have been an unknown entity. Just as the man described by Mr Smith is unknown.
Over the past ten years you and many others would have been using information supplied in good faith ... by two different witnesses ... but the wrong information.
The PJ dismissed the McCluskey mistaken identity ... because they had already investigated and eliminated it.
The PJ dismissed the same wrong claim from Smith ... because they had investigated it and eliminated it having established that it is not possible for the same person to be in two places at one and the same time. https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pj_report_english_translation.pdf
Oh yes the timeline is crucial nevermind two places at once fiasco. Only one thought they were still at the table as late as 10:13. I'm sure you can work out who that is.
"That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her."
That timeline connects to important witness statements i.e. alarm raised before 10 not after.
"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45. (time confirmed by ROB - PF)
He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.
Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment."
The opening sentence of the article answers your question:
(Key words highlighted):
Again, you have efits of men who (conceivably, not necessarily) may have had something to do with Madeleine's abduction, the difference (yet again) between intelligence and evidence and (yet again) full justification in publishing that efit (when it was published).
The Smith sighting was (potentially) actually of Madeleine's abduction.
You need the context of a live and on-going police enquiry to publish such an efit.
simple as that.
So are you saying any and all efits of potential suspects can be released by whoever wants to release them at any time, whether there is an ongoing open police investigation or not, but any that show a face of someone seen carrying a child are not? Do you have a cite for this ongoing assertion of yours?
Also why didnt the republished Madeleine title with updates include the smithman efits?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2016, 06:47:59 AM
So are you saying any and all efits of potential suspects can be released by whoever wants to release them at any time, whether there is an ongoing open police investigation or not, but any that show a face of someone seen carrying a child are not? Do you have a cite for this ongoing assertion of yours?
Also why didnt the republished Madeleine title with updates include the smithman efits?
Time and geography are the two crucial factors.
An efit of a man carrying a child in close proximity to apartment 5a at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted need a live and on-going police investigation to publish them.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 17, 2016, 08:14:25 AM
So are you saying any and all efits of potential suspects can be released by whoever wants to release them at any time, whether there is an ongoing open police investigation or not, but any that show a face of someone seen carrying a child are not? Do you have a cite for this ongoing assertion of yours?
Also why didnt the republished Madeleine title with updates include the smithman efits?
There are many questions of that genre that come out of Kate's book. It makes me wonder who she wrote it for.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 17, 2016, 09:19:32 AM
An efit of a man carrying a child in close proximity to apartment 5a at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted need a live and on-going police investigation to publish them.
I wouldn't describe Smithman as being seen in close proximity to G6A. I am under the impression that no-one 'knows' the time of the alleged abduction. Are you referring to the 2007-2012 alleged time or the 2013-present alleged time?
Who released the Tannerman e-fits for publication? The PJ? LP? The McCanns? Someone else? When were they released?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2016, 10:31:32 AM
I wouldn't describe Smithman as being seen in close proximity to G6A. I am under the impression that no-one 'knows' the time of the alleged abduction. Are you referring to the 2007-2012 alleged time or the 2013-present alleged time?
Who released the Tannerman e-fits for publication? The PJ? LP? The McCanns? Someone else? When were they released?
Tannerman?
We are talking about the Smith efits.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2016, 11:08:44 AM
You seem to have missed some points. Please define 'close proximity' and 'the known time of the abduction'.
My other point is also relevant as per your points below.
You have posted;
"An efit of a man carrying a child in close proximity to apartment 5a at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted need a live and on-going police investigation to publish them."
"The Smith sighting was (potentially) actually of Madeleine's abduction.
You need the context of a live and on-going police enquiry to publish such an efit"
"To have published an efit of (potentially!) Madeleine's abductor -- apart from a live and ongoing criminal enquiry -- would have been crass, bordering on criminal, irresponsibility"
If, as I understand it, you are saying that it was the job of a live and on-going police investigation to publish the Smithman e-fits, then the same standard should apply to the Tanner e-fits.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2016, 02:17:38 PM
You seem to have missed some points. Please define 'close proximity' and 'the known time of the abduction'.
My other point is also relevant as per your points below.
You have posted;
"An efit of a man carrying a child in close proximity to apartment 5a at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted need a live and on-going police investigation to publish them."
"The Smith sighting was (potentially) actually of Madeleine's abduction.
You need the context of a live and on-going police enquiry to publish such an efit"
"To have published an efit of (potentially!) Madeleine's abductor -- apart from a live and ongoing criminal enquiry -- would have been crass, bordering on criminal, irresponsibility"
If, as I understand it, you are saying that it was the job of a live and on-going police investigation to publish the Smithman e-fits, then the same standard should apply to the Tanner e-fits.
At the time of the Smith sighting when (it was established by the shelved enquiry and recorded in the final PJ report written by Joao Carlos that Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant) the Smith family saw a man carrying a child who, conceivably, might have been Madeleine's abductor, carrying Madeleine.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 17, 2016, 07:31:41 PM
At the time of the Smith sighting when (it was established by the shelved enquiry and recorded in the final PJ report written by Joao Carlos that Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant) the Smith family saw a man carrying a child who, conceivably, might have been Madeleine's abductor, carrying Madeleine.
If you can't support your assertions just say so.
Two men were seen carrying a child. Team McCann released an e-fit for one of them but not the other. End of.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 17, 2016, 07:41:50 PM
Wasn't the one released an artist's impression, not an efit? As far as I know, there is no efit for Tannerman.
The point is the publicising or not of images, not how they were produced.
The difference between the two seems to be a matter of preference;
In the U.S. the FBI maintains that hand-drawing is its preferred method for constructing a facial composite. Many other police agencies, however, use software, since suitable artistic talent is often not available. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_composite
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 17, 2016, 09:08:04 PM
Why is an artist's impression different from an efit?
An efit is a computer generated composite of a face. The image of Tannerman does not fit that criteria, it is an artists's impression of the clothing & profile of the suspect.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 17, 2016, 09:16:16 PM
The point is the publicising or not of images, not how they were produced.
The difference between the two seems to be a matter of preference;
In the U.S. the FBI maintains that hand-drawing is its preferred method for constructing a facial composite. Many other police agencies, however, use software, since suitable artistic talent is often not available. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_composite
What effect would it have had on the PJ investigation if the McCanns' PI's had released the efits within weeks of the shelving? All other efits/artist impressions were already in the PJ files.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 17, 2016, 10:37:21 PM
An efit of a man carrying a child in close proximity to apartment 5a at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted need a live and on-going police investigation to publish them.
You still didnt answer my query
Where is it written that efits of suspicious people who the police want identified/interest to the case can be published when the case is not live but efits of the actual perpetrator cannot
Thats to add to where is your cite that no efits can be published at all in a dormant case
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 17, 2016, 10:55:42 PM
What effect would it have had on the PJ investigation if the McCanns' PI's had released the efits within weeks of the shelving? All other efits/artist impressions were already in the PJ files.
The Smith e-fits should have been publicised immediately in the Algarve in an attempt to exclude Smithman from the investigation.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 17, 2016, 10:58:13 PM
The Smith e-fits should have been publicised immediately in the Algarve in an attempt to exclude Smithman from the investigation.
The efits were done by a pi agency employed by the mccanns who said they sent them to the p j by october 2009, that is, one whole year after sitting on them (like they were LE runnng the investigation)
The pj had nothing to do with them, id imagne they might have some mistrust of the mccanns and their various "teams" would any other police force do this when just had them sent in the post? What a crooked case
Eta add the fact that the mccanns never made any mention of them in 5 years anywhere at all proves that a) they thought they were not important b) they didnt want them published for some reason
And c) why DID they sit in them for a whole year mthat could or should be construed as withholding evidence from both the Lp and the PJ
im sure it wasnt the lack of mney to buy some stamps
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2016, 12:21:17 AM
The efits were done by a pi agency employed by the mccanns who said they sent them to the p j by october 2009, that is, one whole year after sitting on them (like they were LE runnng the investigation)
The pj had nothing to do with them, id imagne they might have some mistrust of the mccanns and their various "teams" would any other police force do this when just had them sent in the post? What a crooked case
Eta add the fact that the mccanns never made any mention of them in 5 years anywhere at all proves that a) they thought they were not important b) they didnt want them published for some reason
The Polícia Judiciária didn't bother to commission an efit of the man seen by Jane Tanner ... unless the egg counts. The PJ did not bother to commission an efit of the man seen by the Smiths ... hardly surprising since all three Smiths whose interviews are in the files said they would not be able to identify the man.
The victims of the crime did bother and shared the information with the British police and the Portuguese police.
In the first instance, why were the victims of crime put in the situation of having to effectively do the job of the Portuguese police? Why are 'questions being asked' of them but the abandonment of Madeleine McCann by the law enforcement agency which failed in its duty to her is accepted without qualm?
It wasn't her parents who should have been left to commission efits or decide what should have been done with them ... that should have been the job of the Polícia Judiciária ... and it is a diligence which should have been carried out as soon as witnesses presented themselves.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 18, 2016, 12:44:11 AM
The Polícia Judiciária didn't bother to commission an efit of the man seen by Jane Tanner ... unless the egg counts. The PJ did not bother to commission an efit of the man seen by the Smiths ... hardly surprising since all three Smiths whose interviews are in the files said they would not be able to identify the man.
The victims of the crime did bother and shared the information with the British police and the Portuguese police.
In the first instance, why were the victims of crime put in the situation of having to effectively do the job of the Portuguese police? Why are 'questions being asked' of them but the abandonment of Madeleine McCann by the law enforcement agency which failed in its duty to her is accepted without qualm?
It wasn't her parents who should have been left to commission efits or decide what should have been done with them ... that should have been the job of the Polícia Judiciária ... and it is a diligence which should have been carried out as soon as witnesses presented themselves.
As you have posted many times said witnesses could not reproduce a face either for tannerman or smithman but now youre complaining the pj didnt produce efits for faceless men, make your mind up
Your post didnt address the question why the mccanns SAT on their efits for a whole YEAR, in effect they themselves making the decision if they were of importance or not and NOT giving them to any police force for a whole year, thats utterly pathetic whichever way you look at it
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 18, 2016, 12:57:02 AM
As you have posted many times said witnesses could not reproduce a face either for tannerman or smithman but now youre complaining the pj didnt produce efits for faceless men, make your mind up
Your post didnt address the question why the mccanns SAT on their efits for a whole YEAR, in effect they themselves making the decision if they were of importance or not and NOT giving them to any police force for a whole year, thats utterly pathetic whichever way you look at it
There are no features on the information given to the artist by Jane Tanner. Quite simply, that is because she did not see his face.
I'm not entirely sure how interested DCI Redwood was in pushing the images supplied by the Irish as opposed to publicising and promoting his change in the timeline which allowed the man seen by the Smiths to have walked directly from the McCann apartment. There have been no further Crimewatch updates utilising the images provided by the fraudster Halligen. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/washingtondc/press-releases/2013/former-ceo-of-london-based-company-pleads-guilty-to-federal-charge-in-2.1-million-fraud-scheme So who can tell exactly where we are with that one.
I don't know why the Fund, the British police and the Portuguese police ' sat on' the information for five years. I am sure they all had good reason for so doing, perhaps one day someone will tell us.
You still are not getting the point about how outrageous it is that the victims of a crime have had to do the police job for them.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: mercury on August 18, 2016, 01:14:00 AM
There are no features on the information given to the artist by Jane Tanner. Quite simply, that is because she did not see his face.
I'm not entirely sure how interested DCI Redwood was in pushing the images supplied by the Irish as opposed to publicising and promoting his change in the timeline which allowed the man seen by the Smiths to have walked directly from the McCann apartment. There have been no further Crimewatch updates utilising the images provided by the fraudster Halligen. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/washingtondc/press-releases/2013/former-ceo-of-london-based-company-pleads-guilty-to-federal-charge-in-2.1-million-fraud-scheme So who can tell exactly where we are with that one.
I don't know why the Fund, the British police and the Portuguese police ' sat on' the information for five years. I am sure they all had good reason for so doing, perhaps one day someone will tell us.
You still are not getting the point about how outrageous it is that the victims of a crime have had to do the police job for them.
Tanner told the police artist she was not happy with the face so the artist removed it, why would she put it in in the first place if not directed??
Redwood changed the timelne obviously because of the smith sighting which was deemed by him as inportant if not more than the tannerman sighting (the one the mccanns hushed up more or less, as they forever and a day promoted tanners sightng over the smith one which was just as probable if not more as madeleine being taken away, after all all tanner saw was a pair of feet, no hair colour no sex , no top, no age though someone massaged her sighting a few days later)
The mccanns did the police job for them? Well, what was the result? zero again Maybe if they cooperated in the first place and throughout thngs might be dfferent today, as it hapoens they took control as much as they could from day one, sorry, hour one by going aganst police advice and bringing in the worlds media and from then on its history
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 18, 2016, 02:14:39 AM
Tanner told the police artist she was not happy with the face so the artist removed it, why would she put it in in the first place if not directed??
Redwood changed the timelne obviously because of the smith sighting which was deemed by him as inportant if not more than the tannerman sighting (the one the mccanns hushed up more or less, as they forever and a day promoted tanners sightng over the smith one which was just as probable if not more as madeleine being taken away, after all all tanner saw was a pair of feet, no hair colour no sex , no top, no age though someone massaged her sighting a few days later)
The mccanns did the police job for them? Well, what was the result? zero again Maybe if they cooperated in the first place and throughout thngs might be dfferent today, as it hapoens they took control as much as they could from day one, sorry, hour one by going aganst police advice and bringing in the worlds media and from then on its history
Was that the McCanns or the Paynes that brought in the media?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: G-Unit on August 18, 2016, 07:40:22 AM
The Smith e-fits should have been publicised immediately in the Algarve in an attempt to exclude Smithman from the investigation.
Most parents would have been in the Algarve themselves putting up posters of all those they had commissioned pictures of. I could never see the point of releasing them to UK newspapers and ignoring the place where the events occurred.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2016, 04:54:05 PM
You still are not getting the point about how outrageous it is that the victims of a crime have had to do the police job for them.
Could it perhaps have something to do with the fact that surprisingly and oddly, the parents were less than helpful to the inquiry this having been borne out by Kate McCanns less than enthusiastic comments about the Portuguese police in her book?
Is it normal for the parents of a 'disappeared under suspicious circumstances' child to thwart the police investigation and refuse to answer ALL their questions?
A one word response will suffice.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 26, 2016, 06:17:38 PM
Could it perhaps have something to do with the fact that surprisingly and oddly, the parents were less than helpful to the inquiry this having been borne out by Kate McCanns less than enthusiastic comments about the Portuguese police in her book?
Is it normal for the parents of a 'disappeared under suspicious circumstances' child to thwart the police investigation and refuse to answer ALL their questions?
A one word response will suffice.
At that stage of the investigation the police were intent on pinning the disappearance of the child on the child's mother. Much the same tactic had already 'solved' the case of another missing child.
Quote Several similarities between the cases—both girls vanished without trace within 7 miles (11 km) and less than three years of each other, in both cases officers failed to secure the crime scene, both mothers mounted campaigns to find their daughters and both women were accused of involvement—prompted Joana's family to appeal in 2008 for police to investigate whether there was a link between the disappearances.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joana_Cipriano
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Kate McCann took precisely the correct lawful course of action in implementing her right to silence ... and I rather suspect you know that she did particularly as she had just been subjected to a round of eleven hours of police interrogation.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 07:37:09 AM
Imagine there was a portuguese tourist, who does not understand english, walking down that section of Rua Escola and Travessa Das Escadhinas at about 10pm carrying his sleeping daughter.
Imagine he reads all the portuguese language pages on the official MF site, and all the portuguese pages on the SY site. Show me the page where he will read the street names and his own description so that he comes forward. And if he turns on the television, might he see the portuguese language translation of Crimewatch? Unfortunately not, because when the portuguese broadcasters tried, the BBC for legal reasons refused permission. So how exactly is this man supposed to know SY want to contact him? Learn english so he can read the appeals? Become a psychic? Guess?
Have you ever considered SY knows who Smithman is and is waiting for him to come forward.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 07:51:21 AM
And yet they were both wrong as JT was utterly vindicated by the Met. She described accurately what she saw and when she saw it, the only problem was it wasn't the abductor she saw, but according to the Met it was a man carrying his own sleeping child. She wasn't to know that at the time, but in all other respects she was correct.
And I think SY is wrong as well. IMO it was a woman carrying a deceased child.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 07:57:48 AM
Or it could be possible SY were stupid enough to believed that two separate men, almost identical in height, build and clothes were floating around town on the 3rd carrying almost identical children sporting no shoes or cover on a cold evening........no I doubt it as well.
It wouldn't be so difficult if they were husband and wife, the wife could wear his clothes to make it appear she is a man and that the "two men" are dressed similarly.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 08:05:01 AM
She actually saw someone. See the cutting edge documentary - her description of which side of the road the chat was, the TV football, the sighting, all 100% plausible, I have never seen a more honest witness.
Never a truer word spoken.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 27, 2016, 08:31:40 AM
Could it perhaps have something to do with the fact that surprisingly and oddly, the parents were less than helpful to the inquiry this having been borne out by Kate McCanns less than enthusiastic comments about the Portuguese police in her book?
Is it normal for the parents of a 'disappeared under suspicious circumstances' child to thwart the police investigation and refuse to answer ALL their questions?
A one word response will suffice.
It is quite normal for anyone, intuitive enough to perceive that they are being set up, to withdraw cooperation.
Downright silly to do otherwise.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: John on August 27, 2016, 01:14:44 PM
Is it true that you were thinking of putting up Madeleine for adoption?
Wasn't that one of the questions?
Didn't they state (without showing the McCanns the report) that Madeleine's DNA had been found in the Renault Scenic?
Was that incompetent?
Or corrupt?
And yes (to the post above)
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 01:59:19 PM
Forcing or trying for a confession through lies would constitute a setup IMO. Luckily Kate had sufficient conviction in her own innocence to resist confessing.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2016, 02:28:52 PM
And yet they were both wrong as JT was utterly vindicated by the Met. She described accurately what she saw and when she saw it, the only problem was it wasn't the abductor she saw, but according to the Met it was a man carrying his own sleeping child. She wasn't to know that at the time, but in all other respects she was correct.
Agreed Alfie. To me it was obvious long before Mr Redwood's "revelation", that JT's account is 100% veracious and describes an innocent father and child.
The pyjamas worn by the 2-yr old as shown by Redwood in photo would certainly extend below the knees even in the horizontal carrying position with knees bent. This verifies the accuracy of JT's account. The elasticated bands which resemble turn-ups are another confirmer.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: John on August 27, 2016, 03:22:23 PM
They ask awkward and pointed questions. Anyone with nothing to hide has nothing to fear
I don't think you appreciate the enormity of a severe attack of "setup" would do to some people. People have been known to confess to crimes they didn't do inorder to make it go away. So there is something to fear - a wrongful conviction.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: slartibartfast on August 27, 2016, 08:16:41 PM
I don't think you appreciate the enormity of a severe attack of"setup" would do to some people. People have been known to confess to crimes they didn't do inorder to make it go away. So there is something to fear - a wrongful conviction.
Usually vulnerable people, I.e. Low IQ etc.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: jassi on August 27, 2016, 08:17:19 PM
I don't think you appreciate the enormity of a severe attack of"setup" would do to some people. People have been known to confess to crimes they didn't do inorder to make it go away. So there is something to fear - a wrongful conviction.
Not when you can rely on expert lawyers and friends in high places.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 08:27:10 PM
adjective 1. based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair. "a just and democratic society" synonyms: fair, fair-minded, equitable, even-handed, impartial, unbiased, objective, neutral, disinterested, unprejudiced, open-minded, non-partisan, non-discriminatory
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Carana on August 27, 2016, 08:29:58 PM
Real policemen do not try to set (the innocent!) up
Who wasn't the true Scotsman? Who wasn't the true policeman?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 11:43:31 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Quote
The following is a simplified rendition of the fallacy: Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge." Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2016, 09:02:18 AM
That's what police do ferryman, they ask questions and suggest answers. @)(++(*
I've watched some amazing police interviews that have been released on YT. In those, no harsh interview techniques, no threats of mistreatment... Just a very gentle form of questioning that led to the person in question being bound up in a metaphorical binding tape of their own making.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: jassi on August 28, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
I've watched some amazing police interviews that have been released on YT. In those, no harsh interview techniques, no threats of mistreatment... Just a very gentle form of questioning that led to the person in question being bound up in a metaphorical binding tape of their own making.
Except for those who refuse to answer questions - they avoid getting tied up.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2016, 06:27:42 PM
Except for those who refuse to answer questions - they avoid getting tied up.
Indeed.
Wonder why they didn't show her the police sketches taken from the Smith descriptions to the inquiry to see if she might have noticed any matching faces hanging around in the run up to Madeleine's disappearance?
Whoops ... they didn't do any. Apparently of the three witness statements we have seen none were able to adequately describe the man's features.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 28, 2016, 06:41:53 PM
I've watched some amazing police interviews that have been released on YT. In those, no harsh interview techniques, no threats of mistreatment... Just a very gentle form of questioning that led to the person in question being bound up in a metaphorical binding tape of their own making.
I understand exactly what you are getting at, but this would have been mighty difficult in a situation where the PJ were speaking in Portuguese and the interviewee was speaking in English.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2016, 06:50:43 PM
I understand exactly what you are getting at, but this would have been mighty difficult in a situation where the PJ were speaking in Portuguese and the interviewee was speaking in English.
Ricardo Paiva, who conducted Kate McCann's arguida interrogation is a fluent English speaker ~ hence his appointment as liaison officer to the victim's family.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 28, 2016, 07:21:25 PM
Ricardo Paiva, who conducted Kate McCann's arguida interrogation is a fluent English speaker ~ hence his appointment as liaison officer to the victim's family.
The legality was that the interview be conducted in Portuguese. Whether Paiva needed an interpreter was not relevant.
Which other PJ officer sat in and how was his/her English? How good was Kate's lawyer's English? Why was there a translator if everything could be done in English? Do English police officers fluent in Portuguese conduct serious interviews with a native-Portuguese speaker in Portuguese if the incident in question occurred in England?
The technique described by Carana has a high success rate at places like airports, in weeding out illegal immigrants, as opposed to body language or behavioural analysis, which was found to have as much chance of accuracy as tossing a coin.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2016, 07:26:54 PM
I understand exactly what you are getting at, but this would have been mighty difficult in a situation where the PJ were speaking in Portuguese and the interviewee was speaking in English.
In the Cipriano interviews, language was no barrier; techniques of intimidation (far worse, even, than those employed against the McCanns) disturbingly prevalent.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2016, 08:31:26 PM
Ricardo Paiva, who conducted Kate McCann's arguida interrogation is a fluent English speaker ~ hence his appointment as liaison officer to the victim's family.
... who was, coincidentally, the target of an internet honeytrap and email hack combination - I wonder what country that was organised from?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 28, 2016, 09:00:28 PM
Was that proven to be Paiva or someone cloning him?
Nope ... according to Joana (just google ... joana morais and paiva ... for the link) it was him in the flesh so to speak. Disciplinary action was taken against him by his bosses.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2016, 09:46:31 PM
In the Cipriano interviews, language was no barrier; techniques of intimidation (far worse, even, than those employed against the McCanns) disturbingly prevalent.
Did the Ciprianos see and comment on the Smithman efits ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2016, 10:29:50 PM
Nope ... according to Joana (just google ... joana morais and paiva ... for the link) it was him in the flesh so to speak. Disciplinary action was taken against him by his bosses.
Disciplinary action ? For something that occurred outside of office hours and that had no connection to his job. Really ? Do you have a cite for that ? ( something that didn't appear in a British tabloid would be preferable ).
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2016, 03:22:59 PM
Disciplinary action ? For something that occurred outside of office hours and that had no connection to his job. Really ? Do you have a cite for that ? ( something that didn't appear in a British tabloid would be preferable ).
According to Joana's blog ... thought of very highly in some quarters although given little credence in others ...
Quote The PJ's directorate already opened an inquest to the inspector: “An English newspaper is in possession of photos and cell phone messages from a PJ inspector and a North America woman”. In that material, the inspector in question identifies himself in that capacity [as an element of the PJ of Portimão] and says that he worked on the Madeleine McCann case. These two facts led to the opening of a disciplinary proceeding as soon as they were communicated to the PJ, confirmed a source from the PJ National Directorate." Joana Morais
I have already provided the cite (GOOGLE: joana morais and paiva) ... you have my assurance it will take you right to the blog which is not a British tabloid or even a Portuguese one.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2016, 05:04:38 PM
According to Joana's blog ... thought of very highly in some quarters although given little credence in others ...
Quote The PJ's directorate already opened an inquest to the inspector: “An English newspaper is in possession of photos and cell phone messages from a PJ inspector and a North America woman”. In that material, the inspector in question identifies himself in that capacity [as an element of the PJ of Portimão] and says that he worked on the Madeleine McCann case. These two facts led to the opening of a disciplinary proceeding as soon as they were communicated to the PJ, confirmed a source from the PJ National Directorate." Joana Morais
I have already provided the cite (GOOGLE: joana morais and paiva) ... you have my assurance it will take you right to the blog which is not a British tabloid or even a Portuguese one.
Whoever targeted him and organised the faked honeypot sting did not give the details first to a portuguese tabloid (as one might expect if it was organised by a portuguese criminal with a grudge against him). Instead, the details seem to have found their way first, for no apparent reason, to a tabloid a thousand miles distant from Portugal
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2016, 05:49:20 PM
According to Joana's blog ... thought of very highly in some quarters although given little credence in others ...
Quote The PJ's directorate already opened an inquest to the inspector: “An English newspaper is in possession of photos and cell phone messages from a PJ inspector and a North America woman”. In that material, the inspector in question identifies himself in that capacity [as an element of the PJ of Portimão] and says that he worked on the Madeleine McCann case. These two facts led to the opening of a disciplinary proceeding as soon as they were communicated to the PJ, confirmed a source from the PJ National Directorate." Joana Morais
I have already provided the cite (GOOGLE: joana morais and paiva) ... you have my assurance it will take you right to the blog which is not a British tabloid or even a Portuguese one.
So do you think Miss Morais is a credible source ?
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: misty on August 29, 2016, 05:50:20 PM
Whoever targeted him and organised the faked honeypot sting did not give the details first to a portuguese tabloid (as one might expect if it was organised by a portuguese criminal with a grudge against him). Instead, the details seem to have found their way first, for no apparent reason, to a tabloid a thousand miles distant from Portugal
IMO it was probably an underhand attempt by the press to glean first-hand insight of both the McCanns & the PJ investigation during the time RP spent in his liaison role. I can't see how it would have been of any benefit to the McCanns to instigate such an operation, assuming it all occurred after the files were released.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2016, 06:26:20 PM
So do you think Miss Morais is a credible source ?
The first published press report about this faked honeypot sting was in Correio Da Manha 10 March 2012 IMO. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iA_IEzjL2Go/T1uu0LnBpLI/AAAAAAAAIhE/aaTQgOrMfUM/s1600/CdM%2B10032012a.jpg
However as you can clearly see that article states (translated) "An English newspaper is in possession of photos". If that is true then a UK newspaper must have known about this hacking/honeypot op first, before CdM did.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 30, 2016, 03:23:50 AM
The first published press report about this faked honeypot sting was in Correio Da Manha 10 March 2012 IMO. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iA_IEzjL2Go/T1uu0LnBpLI/AAAAAAAAIhE/aaTQgOrMfUM/s1600/CdM%2B10032012a.jpg
However as you can clearly see that article states (translated) "An English newspaper is in possession of photos". If that is true then a UK newspaper must have known about this hacking/honeypot op first, before CdM did.
I like this bit where they blame the McCanns
Quote
The fake profile on Facebook may have been created by someone connected to the McCanns' cause.
Blame them for everything! http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/mccann-affair-pj-inspector-caught-in.html
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 10, 2021, 05:05:12 PM
I don't think you appreciate the enormity of a severe attack of "setup" would do to some people. People have been known to confess to crimes they didn't do inorder to make it go away. So there is something to fear - a wrongful conviction.
I do agree with that. Look what happened to Brendan Dassey, for example.
I would make no inference whatsoever for Kate refusing to answer questions. It's evidence that will solve this case not the fact someone decided lawfully not to answer questions.
Title: Re: SY Crimewatch Smithman Efits
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 10:55:27 PM