UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ferryman on September 23, 2015, 04:13:48 PM
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I'm still trying to track down where, before PdL, Eddie and Keela worked together on the same case.
The Abigale Witchell case (which Keela was engaged on) wouldn't have involved Eddie because it wasn't a murder enquiry.
But certainly an FOI answer I believe Carana has makes reference to Eddie being deployed, alone with Grime, OR with another dog Frankie AND another handler
By Karen McVeigh
HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing. Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable. Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses. Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963. Keela’s considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde. She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife. PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. “She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye,” he said. “She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it.” The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed. When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.” While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose. Mr Ellis said Keela’s “perfect temperament” and enthusiasm made her a great asset. “We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it’s quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable.” Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: “Keela’s training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often.” Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela’s remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. “The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don’t have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit,” Mr Ellis said. Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela’s abilities. “I’ve been working in this business for 25 years and I’ve never heard anything like it,” he said. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/#sthash.Ob511FIb.dpuf
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Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.”
Keela was the "big gun", not Eddie or Frankie.
However accurate she may be, the purpoe was to find tiny traces of blood that could be sent for DNA analysis in case it could be relevant to a crime.
In the PDL searches, nothing of significance was found.
That should have been the end of it: nothing of significance, next case please.
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Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.”
Keela was the "big gun", not Eddie or Frankie.
However accurate she may be, the purpoe was to find tiny traces of blood that could be sent for DNA analysis in case it could be relevant to a crime.
In the PDL searches, nothing of significance was found.
That should have been the end of it: nothing of significance, next case please.
It is the end of it in the real world....the sceptics don't understand what the alerts mean
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Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.”
Keela was the "big gun", not Eddie or Frankie.
However accurate she may be, the purpoe was to find tiny traces of blood that could be sent for DNA analysis in case it could be relevant to a crime.
In the PDL searches, nothing of significance was found.
That should have been the end of it: nothing of significance, next case please.
Indeed.
Still can't find a reference to where (before PdL) Eddie and Keela were used together.
Keela was much the younger dog, aged 3 in 2007, I think ....
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I'm still trying to track down where, before PdL, Eddie and Keela worked together on the same case.
Why?
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Why?
Why would SYP, for the first time, have deployed Eddie and Keela together in PdL?
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Why would SYP, for the first time, have deployed Eddie and Keela together in PdL?
Thats just an (wrong btw) assumption on your part, the question is why does it matter? Whether true or not
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Am I right in thinking that cadaver dogs now are trained only to cadaver and not to blood
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Am I right in thinking that cadaver dogs now are trained only to cadaver and not to blood
I don't know, are you? a cite/link might be useful, not that you ever do them but it might help
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Here's a photo which (assuming you are observant?) indicates that Eddie and Keela worked together elsewhere.
Not sure if this is before PDL or after - John might know.
http://i.imgur.com/vldy8zT.jpg?1-EVRD-Eddie-UK_Justice_Forum
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Am I right in thinking that cadaver dogs now are trained only to cadaver and not to blood
Only in the US forensic canine program, where a cadaver dog and a dog trained to find only blood are teamed up.
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Here's a photo which (assuming you are observant?) indicates that Eddie and Keela worked together elsewhere.
Not sure if this is before PDL or after - John might know.
http://i.imgur.com/vldy8zT.jpg?1-EVRD-Eddie-UK_Justice_Forum
The name on the jacket is the name of the outdoor clothing apparel company Keela International.http://www.keela.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/2494/s/high-visibility-dog-coat/category/38/
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Thats just an (wrong btw) assumption on your part, the question is why does it matter? Whether true or not
The first deployment for the two dogs as a pair and the last deployment (for either dog) under the auspices of SYP?
Doesn't quite sound right, somehow ....
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Only in the US forensic canine program, where a cadaver dog and a dog trained to find only blood are teamed up.
do any other authorities use a blood and a cadaver/blood dog together...it seems unnecessarily complicated
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Am I right in thinking that cadaver dogs now are trained only to cadaver and not to blood
AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be any universal agreement on dog training in the UK, let alone elsewhere:
In the UK there are approximately 70 VR or cadaver dogs, mostly used by police forces, although organisations such as search and rescue teams also have them. There is not a very widespread awareness of the VR dogs and their work, says Lorna, although they have been used for many years.
“They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too. For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts. They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.
“They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.
https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php
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I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)
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do any other authorities use a blood and a cadaver/blood dog together...it seems unnecessarily complicated
You can kind of see the advantage if the cadaver dog is desensitised to blood, because that should increase surety that a cadaver dog alert is to cadaver-scent. And if you have a second dog trained to find only blood, then the potential advantage of finding blood is not lost.
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I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)
I think "faith" is the right word.. @)(++(* @)(++(*
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I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)
How do you desensitise a VR dog to blood? I can see how one could be trained to only alert to blood, but not how it could be desensitised to it.
What decomposing human remains, which is what a forensic VR dog is supposed to sniff out, would not have an associated smell of blood?
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I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)
I can see the interest in having a general VR dog and a specialist to zoom in. The point is to find a victim's body (in which case the blood dog isn't necessary), or to find forensically verifiable evidence of someone's blood.
I have no problem with that, but in this case none was found.
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I can see the interest in having a general VR dog and a specialist to zoom in. The point is to find a victim's body (in which case the blood dog isn't necessary), or to find forensically verifiable evidence of someone's blood.
I have no problem with that, but in this case none was found.
No, the point in this case was to find remnant cadaver scent as it was clear no body or body parts were in situ
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AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be any universal agreement on dog training in the UK, let alone elsewhere:
In the UK there are approximately 70 VR or cadaver dogs, mostly used by police forces, although organisations such as search and rescue teams also have them. There is not a very widespread awareness of the VR dogs and their work, says Lorna, although they have been used for many years.
“They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too. For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts. They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.
“They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.
https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php
There is no national accreditation and training system; as there is no national system there can be no NOBO to do certification to a common datum. There are merely ACPO Guidelines. ACPO aspired to having a national system about 4 years ago.
One would feel more confident were there a national system and UKAS were the NOBO.
Define the system that should have been used then you can define any shortcomings otherwise we can talk til the cows come home about Eddie and Keela. They may have been trained and may have some accreditation but what did that mean when there were only guidelines which by definition are not mandatory.
This is interesting in some respects:
http://www.malpeetk9security.com/#/k9-academy/4536207080
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No, the point in this case was to find remnant cadaver scent as it was clear no body or body parts were in situ
For which there are about half a dozen anecdotal reports of success, if that. Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Why wheel in Keela if the aim is not to pinpoint potential forensic evidence?
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There is no national accreditation and training system; as there is no national system there can be no NOBO to do certification to a common datum. There are merely ACPO Guidelines. ACPO aspired to having a national system about 4 years ago.
One would feel more confident were there a national system and UKAS were the NOBO.
Define the system that should have been used then you can define any shortcomings otherwise we can talk til the cows come home about Eddie and Keela. They may have been trained and may have some accreditation but what did that mean when there were only guidelines which by definition are not mandatory.
This is interesting in some respects:
http://www.malpeetk9security.com/#/k9-academy/4536207080
Thanks, but the link doesn't work.
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Thanks, but the link doesn't work.
try googling malpeet k9
It has been sort of disables in the past 30 minutes!!
Nonetheless it linked to this which was the interesting bit:
http://www.nasdu.co.uk/about-nasdu/aims-objectives/
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For which there are about half a dozen anecdotal reports of success, if that. Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Why wheel in Keela if the aim is not to pinpoint potential forensic evidence?
You're edging towards sounding like ferryman...just because YOU don't know the past case histories and successes doesn't mean there were none
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You're edging towards sounding like ferryman...just because YOU don't know the past case histories and successes doesn't mean there were none
I can only go from what Grime says on his profile... I see two (Devon and Cornwall) cases in which he correctly identified what may well have been residual cadaver scent (or possibly residual blood or other scent within his parameters).
In the two others, there was human material present (one of unspecified nature and another of blood).
(I've left out New Mexico, as Eddie didn't alert even though there was a body as it had been wrapped in plastic and buried under concrete.)
- N. Ireland (ATTRACTA HARRON): Eddie reacted to the physical presence of "human material".
- Wiltshire (AMANDA EDWARDS): reacted to the physical presence of blood. Then identified a deposition site, where presumably a body was found.
- Devon (CHARLOTTE PINKNEY): the dog alerted to her button, and a confession followed to confirm.
- Cornwall (?): the dog alerted to a carpet, and a confession followed to confirm.
We know from the FOI on deployments between 2003 and 2007 that working on his own with Eddie, he found one body. Another four were with Ellis / Frankie, so it's not clear which dog found them, or if they separately both corroborated the finds without the other handler / dog pair knowing in advance. If Eddie found them independently of Frankie, it is still because there were bodies there.
We also know from the FOI that:
"Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.
All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces."
And from whichever version of Grime's profile:
Northern Ireland, UK
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The
search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any
evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger
foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then
concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of
the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a
Vol. IX p. 2482
location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders
empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that
the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams
were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact
position.
Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her
ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house
resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed
as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was
searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and
shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD
then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had
been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a
grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then
used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its
original state.
Devon, UK
A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect
was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near
to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at
the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass.
The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been
initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.
Cornwall, UK
A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects
house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body. This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.
New Mexico, U.S.A.
A witness reported having seen two men walk off into brush land carrying a
spade and a corpse. The area was searched with the EVRD with no
indications being forthcoming. Other assets were utilised and the body was
found: buried at a depth of 8 feet, under the water table, 3 feet of cement and
5 feet of earth replaced on top the corpse that was wrapped in cling film.
There being no scent available to the dog to receive there was no forthcoming
Edited to correct incorrect detail.
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try googling malpeet k9
It has been sort of disables in the past 30 minutes!!
Nonetheless it linked to this which was the interesting bit:
http://www.nasdu.co.uk/about-nasdu/aims-objectives/
Many thanks, Alice, but that seems to be about security dogs.
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Many thanks, Alice, but that seems to be about security dogs.
And detection dogs.
The point, however, being that the lack of national accreditation seems to extend to all sorts of woofers.
So labouring my earlier point: if there is no national accreditation supervised by a NOBO how can any one make any serious comment derogatory or otherwise if there is no common datum on which to base the comment ?
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And detection dogs.
The point, however, being that the lack of national accreditation seems to extend to all sorts of woofers.
So labouring my earlier point: if there is no national accreditation supervised by a NOBO how can any one make any serious comment derogatory or otherwise if there is no common datum on which to base the comment ?
the lack of accreditation is one of the reasons why they can only be judged on confirmed results...the alerts themselves are meaningless...it's what is found that counts
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the lack of accreditation is one of the reasons why they can only be judged on confirmed results...the alerts themselves are meaningless...it's what is found that counts
What they found led to some analysis being done by FSS who concluded:
Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
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And detection dogs.
The point, however, being that the lack of national accreditation seems to extend to all sorts of woofers.
So labouring my earlier point: if there is no national accreditation supervised by a NOBO how can any one make any serious comment derogatory or otherwise if there is no common datum on which to base the comment ?
He (and dogs) seem to have been accredited via ACPO until his retirement. (Op Havern states July 07, the FOI states August 07).
I have no problem with the idea that Grime may have personally trained his dogs to a level beyond that in order to prepare for a solo career. Why not?
My problem is how Eddie's successes got blown out of all proportion, particularly in relation to detecting "residual cadaver scent". That's not all his fault, even if he - perhaps unwittingly - made Eddie appear to be more of a superwoof than he actually was and PJ leaks did the rest, followed by the superwoof videos.
It's not clear to me at all in the two cases cited above what residual scent he was responding to within the dog's training parameters. Cadaver? Blood? Semen?
Even if Grime can't answer questions on the McCann case, why can't he answer them in general, or to a different case which is done and dusted?
Op Havern
3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
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What they found led to some analysis being done by FSS who concluded:
Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
It was Keela who alerted to the boot, not Eddie.
She was only trained to alert to human blood. In a mixture of DNA from 3-5 people, with a trace of presumed blood so small that it couldn't be identified as such, there is no way of knowing who that belonged to, if indeed there ever was any.
Another point, did the PJ forensic chap who drove the car wear gloves or not when driving the Scenic? On both hands... at all times? If so, were they fresh?
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How do you desensitise a VR dog to blood? I can see how one could be trained to only alert to blood, but not how it could be desensitised to it.
What decomposing human remains, which is what a forensic VR dog is supposed to sniff out, would not have an associated smell of blood?
I don't know, but equally, I don't know how you train a dog not to bark.
You can, and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark on specific occasions and to a particular scent, but to no other scent and at no other time.
How do they do that?
I've no idea, but they do.
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I don't know, but equally, I don't know how you train a dog not to bark.
You can, and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark on specific occasions and to a particular scent, but to no other scent and at no other time.
How do they do that?
I've no idea, but they do.
Yes, I know that dogs can be trained to bark or attack in certain situations and not in others, e.g., the poor old postie isn't necessarily a burglar, unless he/ she pops down the chimney at midnight at times other than Xmas.
That's not really my question: how do you dissociate the smell of blood from bits of human remains that either contain blood or have had blood swishing around them?
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Yes, I know that dogs can be trained to bark or attack in certain situations and not in others, e.g., the poor old postie isn't necessarily a burglar, unless he/ she pops down the chimney at midnight at times other than Xmas.
That's not really my question: how do you dissociate the smell of blood from bits of human remains that either contain blood or have had blood swishing around them?
All dogs detect all scents, innately, to a much higher level of acuity than humans.
What a dog reacts to is determined by training.
Necessarily and by definition, that must entail filtering out, or excluding, the scents you don't want a dog to react to.
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I don't know, but equally, I don't know how you train a dog not to bark.
You can, and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark on specific occasions and to a particular scent, but to no other scent and at no other time.
How do they do that?
I've no idea, but they do.
Like Carana I have no idea how a dog trained to find any one of the components which make up the so called "scent of death" collectively and individually can be desensitised to blood ... mainly because it is not known exactly what their nose is telling them is there.
I don't really see what the point of taking blood out of the equation since I think blood is part and parcel of the smell of decay.
I believe I've seen it said that it is possible Eddie and Keela's visit to Praia da Luz followed by Eddie's visit to Haute de la Garenne were poor representations of what working dogs are capable of doing ... perhaps this is a legacy of that too. Unless someone has a good explanation of the reasoning behind why a dog should be desensitised to blood.
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Like Carana I have no idea how a dog trained to find any one of the components which make up the so called "scent of death" collectively and individually can be desensitised to blood ... mainly because it is not known exactly what their nose is telling them is there.
I don't really see what the point of taking blood out of the equation since I think blood is part and parcel of the smell of decay.
I believe I've seen it said that it is possible Eddie and Keela's visit to Praia da Luz followed by Eddie's visit to Haute de la Garenne were poor representations of what working dogs are capable of doing ... perhaps this is a legacy of that too. Unless someone has a good explanation of the reasoning behind why a dog should be desensitised to blood.
The whole point about the cadaver dog and blood dog combination is that blood is not taken out of the equation, because you have a dog with the capability to find it.
If you read the press coverage of the Bianca Jones case (as I have) you'll see that there was a huge pre-trial debate about whether an uncorroborated cadaver dog-alert should be accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (a much stronger position than in Scotland, where such an alert is merely regarded as indicative, rather than proof).
In the press coverage (of the D'Lane case) Morse is described as one of only 6 dogs (sic) in the country (presumably the States, and by implication, the world) that does what Morse does (or did!)
What would be the point of teaming up two dogs that both the same thing?
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Whatever the latest training tools are, at the time Eddie (and presumably others) were trained on decaying piglets and human blood.
I suppose you could take human blood out of the extra training.
However, unless decaying pig blood smells substantially different to human blood, which seems unlikely, wouldn't they also react to pig and therefore human blood?
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He (and dogs) seem to have been accredited via ACPO until his retirement. (Op Havern states July 07, the FOI states August 07).
I have no problem with the idea that Grime may have personally trained his dogs to a level beyond that in order to prepare for a solo career. Why not?
My problem is how Eddie's successes got blown out of all proportion, particularly in relation to detecting "residual cadaver scent". That's not all his fault, even if he - perhaps unwittingly - made Eddie appear to be more of a superwoof than he actually was and PJ leaks did the rest, followed by the superwoof videos.
It's not clear to me at all in the two cases cited above what residual scent he was responding to within the dog's training parameters. Cadaver? Blood? Semen?
Even if Grime can't answer questions on the McCann case, why can't he answer them in general, or to a different case which is done and dusted?
Op Havern
3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
ACPO gave guidelines only.
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Something else to think about.
My principal objection to the inspection of vehicles at PdL has long been the risk of precisely what occurred: an innocent scent within the dogs' scent-range that might have been replicated in any of the other cars, which could only have risked confusion for the dog.
In Detroit, there was another line-up of cars (much longer than in PdL).
If the dog is desensitised to blood, there is much less likely to be confusion, because you won't get cadaver scent in more than one car.
An inspection of a line-up of cars makes (more!) sense if carried out by a dog that detects only cadaver scent.
Of course, at SYP, Eddie had already been in service some years before Keela happened along. Keela was a sort of ad hoc addition, distinct from a cadaver dog and blood dog combination tailored to work in tandem from the start ....
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ACPO gave guidelines only.
There were mandatory training sesssions though. Unless those were led by each force, simply following ACPO guidelines.
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There were mandatory training sesssions though. Unless those were led by each force, simply following ACPO guidelines.
With the alternative being to forfeit ACPO accreditation ....
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Something else to think about.
My principal objection to the inspection of vehicles at PdL has long been the risk of precisely what occurred: an innocent scent within the dogs' scent-range that might have been replicated in any of the other cars, which could only have risked confusion for the dog.
In Detroit, there was another line-up of cars (much longer than in PdL).
If the dog is desensitised to blood, there is much less likely to be confusion, because you won't get cadaver scent in more than one car.
An inspection of a line-up of cars makes (more!) sense if carried out by a dog that detects only cadaver scent.
Of course, at SYP, Eddie had already been in service some years before Keela happened along. Keela was a sort of ad hoc addition, distinct from a cadaver dog and blood dog combination tailored to work in tandem from the start ....
I see your point, FM, but dried blood is surely still part of a composite odour of decomposing human remains. Someone slices off the tip of a finger... there are still the components of blood in it.
A 200-year-old bone would have been in contact with blood at some point, although I suppose any trace of it would be long gone.
A few substances may not contain blood per se, but any major trauma leading to the evacuation of such substances may well leave a trace in the area of forensic interest.
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With the alternative being to forfeit ACPO accreditation ....
I don't enough about how ACPO accreditation would have worked once he'd retired. Could a private dog handler apply for ACPO accreditation, or did it require being an actively serving police officer?
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There were mandatory training sesssions though. Unless those were led by each force, simply following ACPO guidelines.
This is not related to cadaver dogs, but it does mention the annual test, accredited police dog instructors, etc, which I would assume covers all professional trainers and dog types
………………………………........................................
What qualifications should
the trainers have?
All our trainers are either retired Police Dog Handlers or retired Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors who have had years of experience in training, working and handling police dogs in real situations.
Our trainers have encountered violent criminals in the real world,
not just on the sports field.
Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors have to attend a very in depth training course under stringent supervision and continuously being assessed.
Many fail due to the course being so demanding.
Police Dog Handlers are trained for thirteen weeks to achieve a basic level of competence as a dog handler and are then trained continuously until they reach Home Office Set Standards.
From that point, Police Dog Handlers are subject to an annual test where they and their dogs are tested on every aspect of dog handling and both the dog and handler are assessed.
Further to the annual test, the team of handler and dog are required to complete a two week refresher course on an annual basis and if successful, they are licensed for a further twelve months. Any dog or handler that fails will not be re-licensed.
We are time served police dog handlers and Instructors, not sports trainers.
Why not ask your prospective provider can they produce their credentials?
If they are not qualified to Home Office Standards, we would ask you,
which trainer would you prefer?
http://www.trainedprotectiondogs.co.uk/qualifications
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Something of interest, one dog trained on cadaver & the other on blood & cadaver.
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf
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This is not related to cadaver dogs, but it does mention the annual test, accredited police dog instructors, etc, which I would assume covers all professional trainers and dog types
………………………………........................................
What qualifications should
the trainers have?
All our trainers are either retired Police Dog Handlers or retired Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors who have had years of experience in training, working and handling police dogs in real situations.
Our trainers have encountered violent criminals in the real world,
not just on the sports field.
Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors have to attend a very in depth training course under stringent supervision and continuously being assessed.
Many fail due to the course being so demanding.
Police Dog Handlers are trained for thirteen weeks to achieve a basic level of competence as a dog handler and are then trained continuously until they reach Home Office Set Standards.
From that point, Police Dog Handlers are subject to an annual test where they and their dogs are tested on every aspect of dog handling and both the dog and handler are assessed.
Further to the annual test, the team of handler and dog are required to complete a two week refresher course on an annual basis and if successful, they are licensed for a further twelve months. Any dog or handler that fails will not be re-licensed.
We are time served police dog handlers and Instructors, not sports trainers.
Why not ask your prospective provider can they produce their credentials?
If they are not qualified to Home Office Standards, we would ask you,
which trainer would you prefer?
http://www.trainedprotectiondogs.co.uk/qualifications
Thanks Anna. I had a vague memory of having read that, hence my previous post.
However, that seems to state that retired police officers are instructors.
It's not quite clear whether former police officers can renew accreditation as handlers. Perhaps they can, and the wording just isn't clear.
It doesn't say that a former officer can't renew accreditation as a handler either. But if it was open, why let accreditation expire? Grime might have been too busy to take two weeks off, I suppose. He was in a flurry of professional activity at the time, which could be a reason.
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I see your point, FM, but dried blood is surely still part of a composite odour of decomposing human remains. Someone slices off the tip of a finger... there are still the components of blood in it.
A 200-year-old bone would have been in contact with blood at some point, although I suppose any trace of it would be long gone.
A few substances may not contain blood per se, but any major trauma leading to the evacuation of such substances may well leave a trace in the area of forensic interest.
This is how I understand it, from perusal of different articles. Don't ask me which....Please!
Fresh blood or dried blood from a living person is like a fresh vegetable, not yet rotted, or a dried vegetable that can not rot.
Blood within a cadaver is decomposing along with the body and therefore gives off Putriscine and cadaverine .
"Cadaver Scent"
Human blood in liquid form can be kept in a sealed container until it has decomposed. This can then be used to replicate a dead body in training of cadaver dogs.
..........................................................................
I believe the last part came from an American book. They can get out of date blood from Labs etc, or blood soaked bandages from elsewhere. Yuk!
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Something of interest, one dog trained on cadaver & the other on blood & cadaver.
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf
Interesting:
... however more
recently, a new aspect of cadaver detection work has been used in criminal investigations in
which dogs are deployed to search for blood that has been in an area or on an object for various
lengths of time and is in various stages of decomposition
Article dated 2008.
Grime was slightly ahead of his time.
Or maybe not ....
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This is how I understand it, from perusal of different articles. Don't ask me which....Please!
Fresh blood or dried blood from a living person is like a fresh vegetable, not yet rotted, or a dried vegetable that can not rot.
Blood within a cadaver is decomposing along with the body and therefore gives off Putriscine and cadaverine .
"Cadaver Scent"
Human blood in liquid form can be kept in a sealed container until it has decomposed. This can then be used to replicate a dead body in training of cadaver dogs.
..........................................................................
I believe the last part came from an American book. They can get out of date blood from Labs etc, or blood soaked bandages from elsewhere. Yuk!
I wouldn't count too much on putrescine and cadaverine as there are hundreds of compounds which vary over tme and which depend on what human remain material has been found.
Presumably, they can freeze human blood, or leave it to dry on a swab in an oven, if they really want, so that's not an issue.
My question is how and why would any police force wish to spend a fortune on a dog that is trained to react to decomposing human remains devoid of any blood. That would seem to be more of a Michael Jackson Thriller zombie scenario than reality.
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Interesting:
... however more
recently, a new aspect of cadaver detection work has been used in criminal investigations in
which dogs are deployed to search for blood that has been in an area or on an object for various
lengths of time and is in various stages of decomposition
Article dated 2008.
Grime was slightly ahead of his time.
Or maybe not ....
At the time, Keela appears to have been a novelty for SYP. And Grime took her when he left which, presumably, he was entitled to do.
ETA: I can quite understand that Eddie left with Grime, as Eddie was getting old anyway (aged 7), probably wouldn't have adapted to a different handler for the remainder of his working life, and they were both attached to each other. When younger, Ellis was apparently Eddie's trainer (unless the article is incorrect).
Keela, on the other hand was only 3 and she was a highly specialised dog.
I have no idea what's involved in retiring with a young dog. Perhaps there just wasn't enough demand for her in bureaucracyland to justify the expense. Grime disagreed and left with her as well?
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At the time, Keela appears to have been a novelty for SYP. And Grime took her when he left which, presumably, he was entitled to do.
Keela was trained to be very specific ... blood only.
Useful in detecting a murder weapon discarded in bushes or even identifying a blunt instrument which had been used as a weapon for example, an ornament.
But is such specialism to blood necessary for decomp. dogs? For example, Eddie alerted where she did.
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Keela was trained to be very specific ... blood only.
Useful in detecting a murder weapon discarded in bushes or even identifying a blunt instrument which had been used as a weapon for example, an ornament.
But is such specialism to blood necessary for decomp. dogs? For example, Eddie alerted where she did.
I added a bit to my previous post...
I can understand why a highly specialised dog (e.g. Keela) could be an asset, but only if there is enough demand to justify the expense.
If a general VR dog woofs, you can have a UV torch around and find possible areas of interest. Or spay Luminol, which doesn't just react to blood. In that sense, her ability to zoom in on human blood and only that could saved money on potentially irrelevant tests revealed by other means.
On the other hand, was there sufficient demand for her particular skills to justify keeping her on the payroll at a time of cutbacks?
Perhaps specialist dogs related to explosives or drugs were still on the top of the list to be kept?
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With the alternative being to forfeit ACPO accreditation ....
As there is no national accreditation system and ACPO only issue guidelines what precisely is "ACPO Accreditation"? One presumes anything ACPO is valid only for serving police officers and serving police dogs and will expire on retirement from the force. Once one is in "civvy street" how does one and ones dawg become accredited there being no national system?
Why don't you cut the chase ferryman and just state your opinion instead of playing ping pong in an attempt to justify your prejudiced position?
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Keela was trained to be very specific ... blood only.
Useful in detecting a murder weapon discarded in bushes or even identifying a blunt instrument which had been used as a weapon for example, an ornament.
But is such specialism to blood necessary for decomp. dogs? For example, Eddie alerted where she did.
I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason). Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default. The blood dog will never be deployed
So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?
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I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason). Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default. The blood dog will never be deployed
So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?
Because it finds and 'points' to specks of blood invisible to the naked eye. The human remains dog doesn't do that.
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I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason). Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default. The blood dog will never be deployed
So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?
The same advantage as any super-specialised dog. Pinpointing the physical remains of human blood in her case. In a different type of specialised dog, an alert could indicate e.g., a particular type of substance related to explosives, which could give invaluable intelligence quickly, even if it later turns out to be a false alert.
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Because it finds and 'points' to specks of blood invisible to the naked eye. The human remains dog doesn't do that.
Torches can do that, except that torches can also show up specks that aren't necessarily blood.
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Torches can do that, except that torches can also show up specks that aren't necessarily blood.
If they're invisible to the naked eye, how does shining a light help?
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I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason). Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default. The blood dog will never be deployed
So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?
I think Martin Grime is innovative.
I think Keela was a prototype ... worth a try ... but not really worth training up any others.
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As there is no national accreditation system and ACPO only issue guidelines what precisely is "ACPO Accreditation"? One presumes anything ACPO is valid only for serving police officers and serving police dogs and will expire on retirement from the force. Once one is in "civvy street" how does one and ones dawg become accredited there being no national system?
Why don't you cut the chase ferryman and just state your opinion instead of playing ping pong in an attempt to justify your prejudiced position?
It may be possible for civvie-street former officers to carry on with accreditation. I have no idea either way.
Instructors in the cite mentioned a few posts ago are former officers, now civvie-street themselves.
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I think Martin Grime is innovative.
I think Keela was a prototype ... worth a try ... but not really worth training up any others.
That's more or less my impression.
Grime may have been made redundant and was convinced that he could find a niche for himself in the private sector. I have no problem with that. My only problem is that he was just starting out and may have overegged the pudding, with officers in two cases only too appreciative of the extra egg.... IYSWIM.
I do think that Harrison could have done a bit more to make expectations more realistic on both sides (unless he did but not in written form).
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As there is no national accreditation system and ACPO only issue guidelines what precisely is "ACPO Accreditation"? One presumes anything ACPO is valid only for serving police officers and serving police dogs and will expire on retirement from the force. Once one is in "civvy street" how does one and ones dawg become accredited there being no national system?
Why don't you cut the chase ferryman and just state your opinion instead of playing ping pong in an attempt to justify your prejudiced position?
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO.
(Operation Havern)
There is a sense in which Alice is right, though.
ACPO no longer exists.
But it did then ....
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I think Martin Grime is innovative.
I think Keela was a prototype ... worth a try ... but not really worth training up any others.
Maybe.
Poacher has suggested that Grime's (proven and acknowledged!) trip to the States in the new year 2006 was not a success, and was a large part of the reason why his employment with SYP ended.
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Maybe.
Poacher has suggested that Grime's (proven and acknowledged!) trip to the States was not a success, and was a large part of the reason why his employment with SYP ended.
I have no idea who Poacher is other than an alleged UK dog handler, and his / her style made me have doubts - some posts appeared as some kind of personal / professional gripe, so anything that I couldn't verify went on the back burner.
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Maybe.
Poacher has suggested that Grime's (proven and acknowledged!) trip to the States in the new year 2006 was not a success, and was a large part of the reason why his employment with SYP ended.
Who is Poacher?
-
Who is Poacher?
http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs
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I have no idea who Poacher is other than an alleged UK dog handler, and his / her style made me have doubts - some posts appeared as some kind of personal / professional gripe, so anything that I couldn't verify went on the back burner.
I caught up on him not at the time but later; I thought he spoke a lot of sense at a time when there wasn't a lot of it about because everyone seemed to be mesmerised by the pseudo science.
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Maybe.
Poacher has suggested that Grime's (proven and acknowledged!) trip to the States in the new year 2006 was not a success, and was a large part of the reason why his employment with SYP ended.
Sadly, I agree, however brilliant and adorable she is. Specialist explosive dogs may have more currency.
Still, there may have been more opportunities for her in the US or elsewhere as a tandem and I still find that to be an interesting idea, whatever the GP and the specialist team is.
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I caught up on him not at the time but later; I thought he spoke a lot of sense at a time when there wasn't a lot of it about because everyone seemed to be mesmerised by the pseudo science.
I've come across at least one other cadaver dog handler (US or Canada, I think) who I found to be down to earth (although with no idea what the PT investigation was like), and without the insinuations against a fellow handler.
I've posted the link here before somewhere.
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If they're invisible to the naked eye, how does shining a light help?
Variable light spectrum torches.
They can also show up the invisible spot where your cat sprayed on a wall.
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I've come across at least one other cadaver dog handler (US or Canada, I think) who I found to be down to earth (although with no idea what the PT investigation was like), and without the insinuations against a fellow handler.
I've posted the link here before somewhere.
Yes it was rather obvious that there was no love lost. I've read quite a few American doggy blogs and fora and there is usually a great exchange of ideas and informative discussion going on.
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Variable light spectrum torches.
They can also show up the invisible spot where your cat sprayed on a wall.
One for your library Carana
Blood detection dogs (not just Keela) are more efficient than flashing torches willy nilly and save time and money in any crime scene investigation
http://www.searchdogsuk.co.uk/forensic_search.html
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Who is Poacher?
One of those mysterious 'I know a lot but can't tell' types.
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One of those mysterious 'I know a lot but can't tell' types.
Poacher certainly made better sense of Grime's trip to America than Grime himself did.
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I can only go from what Grime says on his profile... I see two (Devon and Cornwall) cases in which he correctly identified what may well have been residual cadaver scent (or possibly residual blood or other scent within his parameters).
In the two others, there was human material present (one of unspecified nature and another of blood).
(I've left out New Mexico, as Eddie didn't alert even though there was a body as it had been wrapped in plastic and buried under concrete.)
- N. Ireland (ATTRACTA HARRON): Eddie reacted to the physical presence of "human material".
- Wiltshire (AMANDA EDWARDS): reacted to the physical presence of blood. Then identified a deposition site, where presumably a body was found.
- Devon (CHARLOTTE PINKNEY): the dog alerted to her button, and a confession followed to confirm.
- Cornwall (?): the dog alerted to a carpet, and a confession followed to confirm.
We know from the FOI on deployments between 2003 and 2007 that working on his own with Eddie, he found one body. Another four (including two bodies found together) were with Ellis / Frankie, so it's not clear which dog found them, or if they separately both corroborated the finds without the other handler / dog pair knowing in advance. If Eddie found them independently of Frankie, it is still because there were bodies there.
We also know from the FOI that:
"Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.
All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces."
And from whichever version of Grime's profile:
Northern Ireland, UK
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The
search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any
evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger
foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then
concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of
the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a
Vol. IX p. 2482
location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders
empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that
the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams
were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact
position.
Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her
ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house
resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed
as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was
searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and
shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD
then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had
been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a
grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then
used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its
original state.
Devon, UK
A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect
was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near
to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at
the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass.
The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been
initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.
Cornwall, UK
A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects
house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body. This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.
New Mexico, U.S.A.
A witness reported having seen two men walk off into brush land carrying a
spade and a corpse. The area was searched with the EVRD with no
indications being forthcoming. Other assets were utilised and the body was
found: buried at a depth of 8 feet, under the water table, 3 feet of cement and
5 feet of earth replaced on top the corpse that was wrapped in cling film.
There being no scent available to the dog to receive there was no forthcoming
These are examples relating to the most important member of the duo doggy team, not a full biographical profile of the history of both dogs' employment. Keela was much younger than Eddie so Eddie will have worked without her up until she was "approved". And Im not sure to what you are referring with "whichever version" of Grime's profile
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Now you've gone and ruined it for him - he was working up to that line @)(++(*
Thought I'd beat him to the draw this time. 8(0(*
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Thought I'd beat him to the draw this time. 8(0(*
I'm very glad to see that John as an ex policeman and with experience of police dogs...agrees with me
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I'm very glad to see that John as an ex policeman and with experience of police dogs...agrees with me
No, not police dogs I'm afraid.
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No, not police dogs I'm afraid.
neither have I but the facts speak for themselves
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neither have I but the facts speak for themselves
So you agree that the dog alerts were evidence of something, however that something is yet to be determined?
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So you agree that the dog alerts were evidence of something, however that something is yet to be determined?
that isn't what Grime said...so I don't agree
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that isn't what Grime said...so I don't agree
I am asking what you think davel, not what Grime said. To repeat, the dog alerts are evidence of something but that something is as yet undetermined, do you agree?
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I am asking what you think davel, not what Grime said. To repeat, the dog alerts are evidence of something but that something is as yet undetermined, do you agree?
If you read my post you will see I have said I do not agree.....because Grime said they have no evidential reliability .... So how can they be evidence of anything
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If you read my post you will see I have said I do not agree.....because Grime said they have no evidential reliability .... So how can they be evidence of anything
because the variety of reliability anywhere from 0-10 does not cancel out the existence of the evidence / sign / indication to begin with, it just is not reliable if not corroborated , and seeing as the existence of remnant cadaverscent contaminant can't be corroborated in itself with no other evidence, it's a bit difficult, and dogs generally do not indicate for no reason, now do you get it?
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because the variety of reliability anywhere from 0-10 does not cancel out the existence of the evidence / sign / indication to begin with, it just is not reliable if not corroborated , and seeing as the existence of remnant cadaverscent contaminant can't be corroborated in itself with no other evidence, it's a bit difficult, and dogs generally do not indicate for no reason, now do you get it?
I get it but you don't it seems....no evidential reliability is 100% clear...
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as I have said before the idea that remnant scent would remain outside in the flower bed for 3 months is ridiculous
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I get it but you don't it seems....no evidential reliability is 100% clear...
Did my post just whoosh over your head? Oh well, I must learn.....
Matthew 7 : 6 is interesting I suppose for a recap
&%+((£
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Did my post just whoosh over your head? Oh well, I must learn.....
Matthew 7 : 6 is interesting I suppose for a recap
&%+((£
Your post didn't make any sense....please don't quote religion at me I have a wonderful riposte
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Your post didn't make any sense....please don't quote religion at me I have a wonderful riposte
It makes total sense for those that understand sense at least
Not a bible basher in the slightest, I could have quoted Yeats or Shakespeare wth the same message, but Matt came to mind instantly as it was suitably apt
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It makes total sense for those that understand sense at least
Not a bible basher in the slightest, I could have quoted Yeats or Shakespeare wth the same message, but Matt came to mind instantly as it was suitably apt
No evidential reliability ales perfect sense.....plus in his rogatory Grime was asked on two occasions if the alerts confirmed the presence of cadaver odour... He did not answer the questions
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It makes total sense for those that understand sense at least
Not a bible basher in the slightest, I could have quoted Yeats or Shakespeare wth the same message, but Matt came to mind instantly as it was suitably apt
Very good.
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Very good.
I think it's very poor so we will have to agree to disagree
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No evidential reliability ales perfect sense.....plus in his rogatory Grime was asked on two occasions if the alerts confirmed the presence of cadaver odour... He did not answer the questions
You are moving the goalposts, not interested
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Very good.
Ta Slarti
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You are moving the goalposts, not interested
Good... Perhaps in that case it would be better if you did not comment on my posts in derogatory terms
The alerts are not confirmed and as such are basically of no use...
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These are examples relating to the most important member of the duo doggy team, not a full biographical profile of the history of both dogs' employment. Keela was much younger than Eddie so Eddie will have worked without her up until she was "approved". And Im not sure to what you are referring with "whichever version" of Grime's profile
New Mexico, U.S.A.
A witness reported having seen two men walk off into brush land carrying a
spade and a corpse. The area was searched with the EVRD with no
indications being forthcoming. Other assets were utilised and the body was
found: buried at a depth of 8 feet, under the water table, 3 feet of cement and
5 feet of earth replaced on top the corpse that was wrapped in cling film.
There being no scent available to the dog to receive there was no forthcoming
A deployment outside the UK?
No names mentioned?
Why is that?
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I get it but you don't it seems....no evidential reliability is 100% clear...
If Eddie hadn't alerted at all, what would that have meant?
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If Eddie hadn't alerted at all, what would that have meant?
Exactly the same as it did mean with an alert.
Zilch ....
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If Eddie hadn't alerted at all, what would that have meant?
It seems he didn't alert at first.... It is not the alerts that are important it's what is found at the alert sites
Posters just don't seem to understand that
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Good... Perhaps in that case it would be better if you did not comment on my posts in derogatory terms
The alerts are not confirmed and as such are basically of no use...
My first post offended you because I tried to explain to you how the alerts are evidence and saying now do you get it? because its not rocket science but you seem to have some difficulty with the basic issue.... a paltry example in any case when compared to some of the things you come out with!
I have never said the cadaver dog alerts were confirmed so why you felt the need to type that to me is anyone's guess...as for being of no use, well that's a matter of opinion, they are of use, Mark Harrison stated they are uncorroborated indications they might not be of use in a court, but who is talking court? The alerts are in general valid cause for justifiable suspicion of death ...cadaver dogs are used for this very reason and not to go find evidence of someone who forgot to brush their teeth!
Google circumstantial evidence and swot up on that...these are the facts, not my opinions
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My first post offended you because I tried to explain to you how the alerts are evidence and saying now do you get it? because its not rocket science but you seem to have some difficulty with the basic issue.... a paltry example in any case when compared to some of the things you come out with!
I have never said the cadaver dog alerts were confirmed so why you felt the need to type that to me is anyone's guess...as for being of no use, well that's a matter of opinion, they are of use, Mark Harrison stated they are uncorroborated indications they might not be of use in a court, but who is talking court? The alerts are in general valid cause for justifiable suspicion of death ...cadaver dogs are used for this very reason and not to go find evidence of someone who forgot to brush their teeth!
Google circumstantial evidence and swot up on that...these are the facts, not my opinions
the alerts are not evidence according to Grime
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New Mexico, U.S.A.
A witness reported having seen two men walk off into brush land carrying a
spade and a corpse. The area was searched with the EVRD with no
indications being forthcoming. Other assets were utilised and the body was
found: buried at a depth of 8 feet, under the water table, 3 feet of cement and
5 feet of earth replaced on top the corpse that was wrapped in cling film.
There being no scent available to the dog to receive there was no forthcoming
A deployment outside the UK?
No names mentioned?
Why is that?
I've never worked with Mr Grime so have no idea what that case is, what you asking me for? I'm sure a very thorough and painstaking search via Google might yield some result and I don't have to ask you why you are asking in the first place, it's so bleedin obvious and predictable, so the better post you could have made would have been something along of the lines of Mr Grime has lied again in his cv, no?
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Exactly the same as it did mean with an alert.
Zilch ....
No alert means Eddie found no trace of the scent he was trained to find. When he alerted it was because he did find the scent he was trained to find. There's a big difference.
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My first post offended you because I tried to explain to you how the alerts are evidence and saying now do you get it? because its not rocket science but you seem to have some difficulty with the basic issue.... a paltry example in any case when compared to some of the things you come out with!
I have never said the cadaver dog alerts were confirmed so why you felt the need to type that to me is anyone's guess...as for being of no use, well that's a matter of opinion, they are of use, Mark Harrison stated they are uncorroborated indications they might not be of use in a court, but who is talking court? The alerts are in general valid cause for justifiable suspicion of death ...cadaver dogs are used for this very reason and not to go find evidence of someone who forgot to brush their teeth!
Google circumstantial evidence and swot up on that...these are the facts, not my opinions
In response to the part I underline, no they aren't.
Anything unacceptable for use in court is not evidence.
Particularly when delivered by a dog incompetently handled at a crime scene ...
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No alert means Eddie found no trace of the scent he was trained to find. When he alerted it was because he did find the scent he was trained to find. There's a big difference.
Not the way Eddie was handled at PdL ....
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the alerts are not evidence according to Grime
Whatever mate, you are free to run around the mulberry bush all year and beyond on this issue, and behave like a despot, but it won't be with me and I'm sure that will please you to no extent so don't say I never did you any favours lol
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Whatever mate, you are free to run around the mulberry bush all year and beyond on this issue, and behave like a despot, but it won't be with me and I'm sure that will please you to no extent so don't say I never did you any favours lol
you posted the alerts are evidence,,,they are not
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No alert means Eddie found no trace of the scent he was trained to find. When he alerted it was because he did find the scent he was trained to find. There's a big difference.
that is just your opinion...there is no evidence eddie alerted to any scent
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In response to the part I underline, no they aren't.
Anything unacceptable for use in court is not evidence.
Particularly when delivered by a dog incompetently handled at a crime scene ...
It all depends how you are prepared to define the word
But to say anythng that is not acceptable in any court proceeding is not evidence just for that reason is pushing it to say the least...
As is claiming Grime was incompetent
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It all depends how you are prepared to define the word
But to say anythng that is not acceptable in any court proceeding is not evidence just for that reason is pushing it to say the least...
As is claiming Grime was incompetent
Grime has said they have no evidential reliability...what part of that don't you understand
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you posted the alerts are evidence,,,they are not
Correct.
In an English court ...
Mercury/
There is intelligence and there is evidence.
Uncorroborated dog-alerts are intelligence
If you don't believe me, read Mark Harrison's reports.
He confirms that what I say is true.
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What were the dog alerts evidence of?
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Correct.
In an English court ...
Mercury/
There is intelligence and there is evidence.
Uncorroborated dog-alerts are intelligence
If you don't believe me, read Mark Harrison's reports.
He confirms that what I say is true.
Depends how wide the gap is between intelligence and evidence. How can a cadaver dog alert be intelligence if not evidence? Unless it's a false positive. If it is not a false positive it has to be evidence, IE the very fact that a cadaver dog has reacted in a missing person case. If you think this means nothing at all, well, that's your choice. Ta anyway
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I know it is difficult in a “Dog Topic”, but can we please try and keep it within the boundaries of the forum rules. No insults and goading, would be appreciated. Thank You.
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I believe that you are all correct in a sense….
Keela was pretty accurate and Eddie was also on the blood alerts.
Apart from that, the only evidence that I can see…. is that either
a. Eddie was wrong and it was a false alert
or
b. That there was actually a body there at some time.
Neither of the possibilities above have been corroborated with any other evidence, hence no corroborated evidence to date.
Unless a confession is obtained at some stage, stating that a body was left in the master bedroom for some time and contaminated clothing with a scent that lasted 3 months, the situation regarding evidence is unlikely to change. IMO
………………………………...............................
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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Depends how wide the gap is between intelligence and evidence. How can a cadaver dog alert be intelligence if not evidence? Unless it's a false positive. If it is not a false positive it has to be evidence, IE the very fact that a cadaver dog has reacted in a missing person case. If you think this means nothing at all, well, that's your choice. Ta anyway
Quite simply they are not evidence because the person who knows the most about them says so
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I believe that you are all correct in a sense….
Keela was pretty accurate and Eddie was also on the blood alerts.
Apart from that, the only evidence that I can see…. is that either
a. Eddie was wrong and it was a false alert
or
b. That there was actually a body there at some time.
Neither of the possibilities above have been corroborated with any other evidence, hence no corroborated evidence to date.
Unless a confession is obtained at some stage, stating that a body was left in the master bedroom for some time and contaminated clothing with a scent that lasted 3 months, the situation regarding evidence is unlikely to change. IMO
………………………………...............................
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
http://www.m
ccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
You are wrong Anna
The alerts are not evidence
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Depends how wide the gap is between intelligence and evidence. How can a cadaver dog alert be intelligence if not evidence? Unless it's a false positive. If it is not a false positive it has to be evidence, IE the very fact that a cadaver dog has reacted in a missing person case. If you think this means nothing at all, well, that's your choice. Ta anyway
Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Mark Harrison.
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Grime also said the alerts have no intelligence reliability
How much clearer does he need to be
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You are wrong Anna
The alerts are not evidence
Sorry, I obviously did not word my post well, Davel.
unless it can be proved that the alert was true and body had been there or there was a future confession to state that a body had been there, There is no corroborated evidence to back up Eddie's alerts.....as at this time.
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Sorry, I obviously did not word my post well, Davel.
unless it can be proved that the alert was true and body had been there or there was a future confession to state that a body had been there, There is no corroborated evidence to back up Eddie's alerts.....as at this time.
The problem is as has been stated many times, that there really is no corroboration for remnant cadaverscent....the closest you can get to court evidence which some hold so dear, as if it's all that matters, is both dogs alerting to the same place and a 100 per cent DNA match from blood to the missing person...any sharp barrister would get that questioned anyway, although a jury might read between lines
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The problem is as has been stated many times, that there really is no corroboration for remnant cadaverscent....the closest you can get to court evidence which some hold so dear, as if it's all that matters, is both dogs alerting to the same place and a 100 per cent DNA match from blood to the missing person...any sharp barrister would get that questioned anyway, although a jury might read between lines
No evidential or intelligence reliability
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The problem is as has been stated many times, that there really is no corroboration for remnant cadaverscent....the closest you can get to court evidence which some hold so dear, as if it's all that matters, is both dogs alerting to the same place and a 100 per cent DNA match from blood to the missing person...any sharp barrister would get that questioned anyway, although a jury might read between lines
Wrong again.
If both dogs react to the same place, that has to be indicative of blood, since Keela is not trained to react to anything else, while Eddie will react to blood or cadaver scent.
Unless Keela has falsely alerted.
Or both dogs have falsely alerted ....
Edited to add.
Beg your pardon.
I missed the part I underline in my first reading of your post.
That's correct.
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Quite simply they are not evidence because the person who knows the most about them says so
Are you referring to M Grime, Davel?
" no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
It depends on how you interpret that really.
There is no forensic or other evidence to corroborate the alerts at present. Therefore no evidence of the alerts being of cadaver scent at this time.
There is however the possibility that other evidence may come forward, to corroborate the alerts at a later date. which I very much doubt now.
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Are you referring to M Grime, Davel?
" no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
It depends on how you interpret that really.
There is no forensic or other evidence to corroborate the alerts at present. Therefore no evidence of the alerts being of cadaver scent at this time.
There is however the possibility that other evidence may come forward, to corroborate the alerts at a later date. which I very much doubt now.
I think we have to judge the case on the evidence at this time
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no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
That rather blurs the distinction between evidence and intelligence.
But I guess the key word is reliability ...
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The dog alerts are evidence of...?
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I think we have to judge the case on the evidence at this time
Of course we must, but I was referring to M grimes words, which did not give a time limit or say that the alerts were false and would be non evidential....forever.
"no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence"
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The dog alerts are evidence of...?
Zilch
Nil
Nada
Nothing
.....
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The dog alerts are evidence of...?
.....nothing until corroborated...... If ever, that is.
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.....nothing until corroborated...... If ever, that is.
If they are evidence of nothing, then they have no value as evidence, and cannot therefore be considered as evidence, right?
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If they are evidence of nothing, then they have no value as evidence, and cannot therefore be considered as evidence, right?
If someone came forward and confessed to killing the child and placing her in the wardrobe long enough for cadaver scent to develop, then the now uncorroborated evidence would be considered True and corroborated evidence.
At present there is no evidence to back the alerts and cadaver scent can not be forensically tested for, so only a body found there by the dogs at the time or a later confession can confirm this IMO.
Thinking of this some more......there is no evidence that Eddie's alerts were false either. woke and wandered proof or a confession of abduction or such like, would be needed to prove this.
Ferryman made a good point about reliability.....
MG did say that no intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts. So it's a guessing game really.
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Wrong again.
If both dogs react to the same place, that has to be indicative of blood, since Keela is not trained to react to anything else, while Eddie will react to blood or cadaver scent.
Unless Keela has falsely alerted.
Or both dogs have falsely alerted ....
Edited to add.
Beg your pardon.
I missed the part I underline in my first reading of your post.
That's correct.
No, not at all, it's embarrassing that you are even trying that false logic
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Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
The dog alerts are thus evidence as Anna pointed out earlier but the significance of this evidence is as yet undetermined. In relation to Madeleine the alerts might have no significance whatsoever but then again they might have every significance. As Mr Grime pointed out, the alerts at that moment in time had no evidential reliability since they were uncorroborated by forensic results but nevertheless, they are evidence of something.
-
Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
The dog alerts are thus evidence as Anna pointed out earlier but the significance of this evidence is as yet undetermined. In relation to Madeleine the alerts might have no significance whatsoever but then again they might have every significance. As Mr Grime pointed out, the alerts at that moment in time had no evidential reliability since they were uncorroborated by forensic results but nevertheless, they are evidence of something.
so you claim the alerts are evidence but you don't know what they are evidence of...so what does that mean the alerts tell us...nothing....and what does that make the alerts...useless
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so you claim the alerts are evidence but you don't know what they are evidence of...so what does that mean the alerts tell us...nothing....and what does that make the alerts...useless
You really don't like the dogs do you.
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You really don't like the dogs do you.
you are wrong...I like the truth about the dogs...there is a massive amount of untruths being told about the alerts...I like to correct it
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So, once again, they tell us that the cadaver dog sent in by the UK reacted to cadaver odour
this is the sort of thing being posted on this forum..it simply isn't true...I like to correct it. I am perfectly happy with the dog's findings...they found nothing of any use..
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so you claim the alerts are evidence but you don't know what they are evidence of...so what does that mean the alerts tell us...nothing....and what does that make the alerts...useless
The parents 'alerted' to an open window and open shutters. No-one else saw them. There was no evidence to support their 'alert'. Does that mean that the parent's 'alert' is useless and tells us nothing?
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The parents 'alerted' to an open window and open shutters. No-one else saw them. There was no evidence to support their 'alert'. Does that mean that the parent's 'alert' is useless and tells us nothing?
you are getting rather silly..the dogs have not made any statement as afar as I am aware
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The parents 'alerted' to an open window and open shutters. No-one else saw them. There was no evidence to support their 'alert'. Does that mean that the parent's 'alert' is useless and tells us nothing?
NICE ONE. 8)--))
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The parents 'alerted' to an open window and open shutters. No-one else saw them. There was no evidence to support their 'alert'. Does that mean that the parent's 'alert' is useless and tells us nothing?
Amy Tierney was a witness to the windows, G
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
However Off topic
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NICE ONE. 8)--))
not at all...the mccanns statements are accepted as evidence in court....they can be cross examined...dogs cannot speak
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not at all...the mccanns statements are accepted as evidence in court....they can be cross examined...dogs cannot speak
...and never independently verified before 10 pm. 8)-)))
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the alerts tell us absolutely nothing...perhaps one of the experts on here can contradict me and tell me what information the alerts give us
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No, not at all, it's embarrassing that you are even trying that false logic
What false logic.?
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the alerts tell us absolutely nothing...perhaps one of the experts on here can contradict me and tell me what information the alerts give us
John gave the position I believe last night.
Your numerous repeated posts on the issue won't change minds on here.
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John gave the position I believe last night.
Your numerous repeated posts on the issue won't change minds on here.
John gave his opinion ...his opinion was the alerts tell us nothing....perhaps you should read the post
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you are getting rather silly..the dogs have not made any statement as afar as I am aware
If by 'statement' you mean speaking words and signing papers you are correct. People give such statements but does that mean they're true? Not necessarily.
Eddies statement was a communication, even if words, paper and signatures weren't used. Does that mean it was false? Not necessarily.
the communication of an idea, position, mood, or the like through something other than words.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statement
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John gave his opinion ...his opinion was the alerts tell us nothing....perhaps you should read the post
I have.
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Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
The dog alerts are thus evidence as Anna pointed out earlier but the significance of this evidence is as yet undetermined. In relation to Madeleine the alerts might have no significance whatsoever but then again they might have every significance. As Mr Grime pointed out, the alerts at that moment in time had no evidential reliability since they were uncorroborated by forensic results but nevertheless, they are evidence of something.
Uncorroborated dog alerts are intelligence, not evidence.
-
Amy Tierney was a witness to the windows, G
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
However Off topic
Amy's evidence is a problem for me Anna, because she says that a female friend of the Mccanns was in the apartment when she was there. None of the McCann's friends saw the open windows and shutters, so how did Amy see them?
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John gave his opinion ...his opinion was the alerts tell us nothing....perhaps you should read the post
The only difference between the dogs and any other witness is that the other witnesses can be cross examined.
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If by 'statement' you mean speaking words and signing papers you are correct. People give such statements but does that mean they're true? Not necessarily.
Eddies statement was a communication, even if words, paper and signatures weren't used. Does that mean it was false? Not necessarily.
the communication of an idea, position, mood, or the like through something other than words.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statement
we don't know that eddie was alerting to cadaver odour...he cannot tell us
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Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
The dog alerts are thus evidence as Anna pointed out earlier but the significance of this evidence is as yet undetermined. In relation to Madeleine the alerts might have no significance whatsoever but then again they might have every significance. As Mr Grime pointed out, the alerts at that moment in time had no evidential reliability since they were uncorroborated by forensic results but nevertheless, they are evidence of something.
evidence of what?
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Amy's evidence is a problem for me Anna, because she says that a female friend of the Mccanns was in the apartment when she was there. None of the McCann's friends saw the open windows and shutters, so how did Amy see them?
There could be many reasons for this, G. She didn't see Russ or was it Matt? who passed her, whilst she was going to dinner
However this is Off topic and should be continued on an appropriate thread topic.
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The only difference between the dogs and any other witness is that the other witnesses can be cross examined.
the dogs are not witnesses
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evidence of what?
John doesn't know...nobody does...
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the dogs are not witnesses
Yes they are, expert witnesses.
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Yes they are, expert witnesses.
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
Martin Grime.
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Fascinating.
The more the mccann supporters diss the dog alerts, the more credence they give them.
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we don't know that eddie was alerting to cadaver odour...he cannot tell us
When Eddie finds the scent he is trained to find he barks. He barked in the bedroom. That's Eddie's way of saying 'Found it!'. You have chosen not to believe him, that's all.
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Yes they are, expert witnesses.
that is totally ridiculous
a person who sees an event, typically a crime or accident, take place
witness definition...
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When Eddie finds the scent he is trained to find he barks. He barked in the bedroom. That's Eddie's way of saying 'Found it!'. You have chosen not to believe him, that's all.
I have chosen to believe Grime..you have not..Grime does not confirm the alert is to cadaver odour
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Amy's evidence is a problem for me Anna, because she says that a female friend of the Mccanns was in the apartment when she was there. None of the McCann's friends saw the open windows and shutters, so how did Amy see them?
Which way in did she go?
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Fascinating.
The more the mccann supporters diss the dog alerts, the more credence they give them.
do you seriously think that any post I make has any bearing on the credence of the alerts..are SY watching the forums to see our opinions.....bizarre
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When Eddie finds the scent he is trained to find he barks. He barked in the bedroom. That's Eddie's way of saying 'Found it!'. You have chosen not to believe him, that's all.
What was Eddie signalling when he alerted to the toy after it had been put in the cupboard, but not while he could see it, sniff it and play with it?
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do you seriously think that any post I make has any bearing on the credence of the alerts..are SY watching the forums to see our opinions.....bizarre
I didn't say that.
What is bizarre, is the continued attacks on Grime and the indications.
if they have no meaning, why bother posting on it.
You won't change minds.
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I didn't say that.
What is bizarre, is the continued attacks on Grime and the indications.
if they have no meaning, why bother posting on it.
You won't change minds.
What is bizarre is that precisely the same people who denigrate and accuse the McCanns, day in and day out, get hot under the collar when just critique is offered of the dog-handler.
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What is bizarre is that precisely the same people who denigrate and accuse the McCanns, day in and day out, get hot under the collar when just critique is offered of the dog-handler.
In case it has passed you by, the mccanns hold total responsibility for what happened to Madeleine unless proven otherwise.
They were her parents, guardians and had a duty of care, in which they failed miserably.
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In case it has passed you by, the mccanns hold total responsibility for what happened to Madeleine unless proven otherwise.
They were her parents, guardians and had a duty of care, in which they failed miserably.
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
(Portuguese prosecuotrs)
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I have chosen to believe Grime..you have not..Grime does not confirm the alert is to cadaver odour
Grime said of Eddie;
he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour.
So Eddie recognised an odour and responded by barking as he had been trained to do.
Grime then explains further. Although the dog has communicated that the odour is there, that doesn't explain why it's there or how it got there. These questions have to be answered in order to secure a conviction in court. In order to take a case to court evidence is needed to explain the who why what when and where.
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The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
(Portuguese prosecuotrs)
Need I remind you, it has not been determined how and when precisely, Madeleine disappeared.
Her parents were guardians and responsible for her safety.
Nothing you can say can get away from that.
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Need I remind you, it has not been determined how and when precisely, Madeleine disappeared.
Her parents were guardians and responsible for her safety.
Nothing you can say can get away from that.
Andy Redwood made perfectly clear that neither the McCanns nor any of their friends are persons of interest or suspects.
Guesswork that anything has happened since to change that position is precisely that: guesswork ....
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What is bizarre is that precisely the same people who denigrate and accuse the McCanns, day in and day out, get hot under the collar when just critique is offered of the dog-handler.
Must be a new definition of the word critique
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The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
(Portuguese prosecuotrs)
Strange how this keeps getting referred to when so many of the PJ Files are seen as incorrect. How did the Portuguese prosecutors know the time of Madeleine's disappearance? The answer is they didn't.
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Andy Redwood made perfectly clear that neither the McCanns nor any of their friends are persons of interest or suspects.
Guesswork that anything has happened since to change that position is precisely that: guesswork ....
Until proven otherwise, the mccanns are responsible for what happened to their daughter.
NO OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN APPREHENDED OR CHARGED WITH HER DISAPPEARANCE.
P.S. Redwood is irrelevant. He is no longer on the case.
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Slipping Off Topic, guys. Please try to adhere to the topic of the thread. Thank You
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Must be a new definition of the word critique
Nope.
Honest and rigorous application of the word by its traditional and long-established meaning
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Grime said of Eddie;
he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour.
So Eddie recognised an odour and responded by barking as he had been trained to do.
Grime then explains further. Although the dog has communicated that the odour is there, that doesn't explain why it's there or how it got there. These questions have to be answered in order to secure a conviction in court. In order to take a case to court evidence is needed to explain the who why what when and where.
I have no problem with what Grime says..eddie alerts when he recognises an odour...what Grime does not say is that every alert indicates an odour has been found...Grime was asked twice in his rog if the alert confirmed the odour...he did not answer the question
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Grime said of Eddie;
he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour.
So Eddie recognised an odour and responded by barking as he had been trained to do.
Grime then explains further. Although the dog has communicated that the odour is there, that doesn't explain why it's there or how it got there. These questions have to be answered in order to secure a conviction in court. In order to take a case to court evidence is needed to explain the who why what when and where.
Eddie, apparently, recognised an odour in the gym he could find no trace of when the same clothing was in the villa.
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There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
Martin Grime.
It is very difficult to understand why people misinterpret what Martin Grime is saying. He could not be more specific and uses simple and straightforward language in explanation.
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'With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver'
OR
Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
posters on here are assuming that eddie's alerts are to cadaver odour......Grime says that in order to undoubtedly affirm there must be confirmation....posters on here can say what they like...it's what Grime says that counts
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It is very difficult to understand why people misinterpret what Martin Grime is saying. He is could not be more specific and uses simple and straightforward language in explanation.
it's very easy to understand..its called denial
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It is very difficult to understand why people misinterpret what Martin Grime is saying. He is could not be more specific and uses simple and straightforward language in explanation.
So when exactly did he say the dogs indications weren't triggered by the presence of a body ?
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So when exactly did he say the dogs indications weren't triggered by the presence of a body ?
Wrong question.
When, exactly, did he say they were?
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So when exactly did he say the dogs indications weren't triggered by the presence of a body ?
if you understood you would not ask that question...because the alerts may have been triggered by a cadaver... the whoLe point is that you cannot seem to grasp...and as John pointed out. is NO ONE KNOWS
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Wrong question.
When, exactly, did he say they were?
Why is it the wrong question ?
The dogs alerted.
Get over it.
Nothing you can say will ever change that.
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Why is it the wrong question ?
The dogs alerted.
Get over it.
Nothing you can say will ever change that.
and what did they alert to...no one knows
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Why is it the wrong question ?
The dogs alerted.
Get over it.
Nothing you can say will ever change that.
Nothing will ever change the fact that no-one will ever know to what Eddie alerted ... although we can strongly suspect that we were watching the first act of a dog which was past its prime the finale of which was enacted in Haute de la Garenne.
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Nothing will ever change the fact that no-one will ever know to what Eddie alerted ... although we can strongly suspect that we were watching the first act of a dog which was past its prime the finale of which was enacted in Haute de la Garenne.
You will find the Haute de la Garenne case isn't over yet.
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You will find the Haute de la Garenne case isn't over yet.
So you keep saying.
That aspect of the enquiry that probed possible murder at the former home was long ago over.
There may be further enquiries about abuse ....
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So you keep saying.
That aspect of the enquiry that probed possible murder at the former home was long ago over.
There may be further enquiries about abuse ....
There will be.
Now who brought up this matter this morning ferryman ?
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There will be.
Now who brought up this matter this morning ferryman ?
There will be what?
Don't understand your second question at all.
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There will be what?
Don't understand your second question at all.
Try reading the recent posts. It would help.
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We are way off-topic.
Did Eddie and Keela work together before pdl?
There is an FOI answer from South Yorkshire Police I no longer have which makes reference to Eddie working alone with Grime OR working with Grime, with another handler, Ellis, AND with another dog, Frankie.
That answer gives the full break-down of Eddie's deployments and makes no reference to Keela.
So I think we can safely assume that Eddie and Keela worked together for the first time in PdL.
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You will find the Haute de la Garenne case isn't over yet.
Good deflection from the fact that Eddie as a cadaver dog was well past his sell by date both in Praia da Luz and at Haute de la Garenne ~ but it doesn't change the fact.
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Nothing will ever change the fact that no-one will ever know to what Eddie alerted ... although we can strongly suspect that we were watching the first act of a dog which was past its prime the finale of which was enacted in Haute de la Garenne.
I can speculate why he alerted to cuddle-cat.
He was having such fun playing with it, then some bounder hid it and he wanted his toy back.
Not the best discipline for a working police dog attending a crime scene ...
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I can speculate why he alerted to cuddle-cat.
He was having such fun playing with it, then some bounder hid it and he wanted his toy back.
Not the best discipline for a working police dog attending a crime scene ...
perfect sense
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We are way off-topic.
Did Eddie and Keela work together before pdl?
There is an FOI answer from South Yorkshire Police I no longer have which makes reference to Eddie working alone with Grime OR working with Grime, with another handler, Ellis, AND with another dog, Frankie.
That answer gives the full break-down of Eddie's deployments and makes no reference to Keela.
So I think we can safely assume that Eddie and Keela worked together for the first time in PdL.
South Yorkshire Police FOI
Eddie the Springer Spaniel sniffer dog.
Reference number: 20090062
Request date: 19/02/2009 (All day)
Response date: 30/03/2009 (All day)
Request details:
SYP response:
Thank you for your request for information in relation to:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer Spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?
Eddie, the specialist dog is no longer with South Yorkshire Police. He and his handler left the Force in August 2007. The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.
Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:
As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
I make that eight bodies found by two cadaver dogs over a time span of five years. That suggests to me that it is not as easy for the dogs to find human remains as we are led to believe ... and that is no disparagement of the dogs ... if the remains aren't there to be found in the first instance, they won't be.
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Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
The dog alerts are thus evidence as Anna pointed out earlier but the significance of this evidence is as yet undetermined. In relation to Madeleine the alerts might have no significance whatsoever but then again they might have every significance. As Mr Grime pointed out, the alerts at that moment in time had no evidential reliability since they were uncorroborated by forensic results but nevertheless, they are evidence of something.
First John you have made a very good case for the fact that Maddie is missing is evidence of abduction.
Apart from that you have totally missed the point. Should new evidence come to light then it will be the new evidence itself that will be important...not the alerts. I'm surprised you can't see that
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I can speculate why he alerted to cuddle-cat.
He was having such fun playing with it, then some bounder hid it and he wanted his toy back.
Not the best discipline for a working police dog attending a crime scene ...
In my opinion it exactly mirrors the dogs training when the scent object is hidden; Eddie found the scent he recognised which wasn't cadaver ... it was his toy; a fact not missed by the PJ.
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South Yorkshire Police FOI
Eddie the Springer Spaniel sniffer dog.
Reference number: 20090062
Request date: 19/02/2009 (All day)
Response date: 30/03/2009 (All day)
Request details:
SYP response:
Thank you for your request for information in relation to:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer Spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?
Eddie, the specialist dog is no longer with South Yorkshire Police. He and his handler left the Force in August 2007. The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.
Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:
As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
I make that eight bodies found by two cadaver dogs over a time span of five years. That suggests to me that it is not as easy for the dogs to find human remains as we are led to believe ... and that is no disparagement of the dogs ... if the remains aren't there to be found in the first instance, they won't be.
Thank you Brietta.
Also puts in the shade Grime's claim of over 200 deployments (for Eddie)
But we are off-topic again.
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It would seem that mccann supporters are keen on FOI's to the SY police.
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It would seem that mccann supporters are keen on FOI's to the SY police.
What is your objection to FOI questions and answers?
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It would seem that mccann supporters are keen on FOI's to the SY police.
another false statement...can't you get anything right
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What is your objection to FOI questions and answers?
On principal nothing.
Unless of course people have an ulterior motive.
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On principal nothing.
Unless of course people have an ulterior motive.
What is wrong with the ulterior motive of wanting to separate fact from fiction?
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Eddie's detective work is again shown in court. Eddie is gone but videos/EVIDENCE of his great work are not.
"because of that, the investigation focused on Hamilton" they also focused on Adrian Prout when Eddie alerted. The police focus on the dog alerts as SY proved last summer by using the same dogs as Eddie that alert to cadaver scent and blood.
On February 20, 2004, police employed the use of the Victim Recovery Unit dogs from England, which were highly trained to detect and alert handlers to the presence of human remains. A video without sound was shown in the court showing a Springer Spaniel dog examining two cars and a small van before being taken to the Lantra that had been driven by Hamilton and subsequently burned out, allegedly maliciously.
The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out. Its search of the vehicle focused on the front passenger and rear seats.
Further forensic examination was carried out in the rear and passenger compartments of the vehicle and blood was detected from material taken from the car for examination. A car mat from the rear of the car was also shown to contain blood, and because of that, the investigation focused on Hamilton, Mr Mooney said, which included a comprehensive search of the property at Concess Road and in particular the sites of fires in the garden.
On 5th April, 2004, police using specially trained sniffer dogs recovered Attracta's body from a shallow grave beside a stream outside Sion Mills.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hamilton-trevor-william.htm
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so have you all given up defending the meaningless alerts
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so have you all given up defending the meaningless alerts
Good, succinct, response ....
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so have you all given up defending the meaningless alerts
Meaningless to you, and your fellows for obvious reasons, but not to others.
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Meaningless to you, and your fellows for obvious reasons, but not to others.
Legally meaningless, irrespective of what you (or I!) might think ....
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Meaningless to you, and your fellows for obvious reasons, but not to others.
most police forces rely on all kinds of trained dogs to help them are their alerts to things meanless too?
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Meaningless to you, and your fellows for obvious reasons, but not to others.
so tell me what they mean....
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most police forces rely on all kinds of trained dogs to help them are their alerts to things meanless too?
Laws vary from country to country. Scotland (a separate country with separate legislature from England) allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence in court; England doesn't.
I have opined before (and am still of the same view) that even a Scottish court would not accept the alerts in the first PdL investigation. But that opinion will never be tested.
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Why do the sceptics attack them so much?
They had in place a well-drilled system of regular checks an abductor managed to evade -- desperately bad luck!
For the same reason you spend an inordinate amount time attacking Martin Grime and Goncalo Amaral ?
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For the same reason you spend an inordinate amount time attacking Martin Grime and Goncalo Amaral ?
I deplore the fact that people, to the present day, speculate how "cadaver scent" got on Kate's clothes; "cadaver scent" got on cuddle-cat; "cadaver scent" got in to the Renault Scenic; "cadaver scent" got in the holiday apartment.
Blame for all that baseless speculation rests with one man ....
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I deplore the fact that people, to the present day, speculate how "cadaver scent" got on Kate's clothes; "cadaver scent" got on cuddle-cat; "cadaver scent" got in to the Renault Scenic; "cadaver scent" got in the holiday apartment.
Blame for all that baseless speculation rests with one man ....
Actually most people blame all this on the mccanns and their 'responsible parenting skills'. *&*%£
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Actually most people!e blame all this on the mccanns and their 'responsible parenting skills'. *&*%£
No they dont
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I deplore the fact that people, to the present day, speculate how "cadaver scent" got on Kate's clothes; "cadaver scent" got on cuddle-cat; "cadaver scent" got in to the Renault Scenic; "cadaver scent" got in the holiday apartment.
Blame for all that baseless speculation rests with one man ....
As your posts on a little forum like this are ineffectual, while do you persevere?
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I deplore the fact that people, to the present day, speculate how "cadaver scent" got on Kate's clothes; "cadaver scent" got on cuddle-cat; "cadaver scent" got in to the Renault Scenic; "cadaver scent" got in the holiday apartment.
Blame for all that baseless speculation rests with one man ....
Or on p**s poor press reporting?
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As your posts on a little forum like this are ineffectual, while do you persevere?
Why do you?
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Or on p**s poor press reporting?
Press reporting won't have helped.
However, we've seen the videos of the inspections, and we've read the puzzlement and scepticism of one PJ inspector ....
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Why do you?
I have an interest but I don't post with the intensity of feelings that you clearly display.
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Press reporting won't have helped.
However, we've seen the videos of the inspections, and we've read the puzzlement and scepticism of one PJ inspector ....
Yes basically because we are anoraks of one flavour or another, on tiny unimportant fora, and look at such things. I doubt most of the public give a toss but if they do it will likely mostly be, by dint of circulation, to believe what the Red Tops say.
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I have an interest but I don't post with the intensity of feelings that you clearly display.
some of us are passionate people...some are not...I see the persecution of the mccanns as vile...yet you think it's ok
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I simply see it as something outside of my control, so lose no sleep over it.
My postings on here won't alter anything, any more than yours will.
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I simply see it as something outside of my control, so lose no sleep over it.
My postings on here won't alter anything, any more than yours will.
I certainly don't lose any sleep over this either
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Or on p**s poor press reporting?
Almeida's interim report?
How many references to cadaver odour are there in that?
*(Edited to insert correct post I was responding to)
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so you claim the alerts are evidence but you don't know what they are evidence of...so what does that mean the alerts tell us...nothing....and what does that make the alerts...useless
They tell us the dogs alerted to substances, some of which could be substances for which they were trained. You might call it useless but I call it evidence with potential.
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They tell us the dogs alerted to substances, some of which could be substances for which they were trained. You might call it useless but I call it evidence with potential.
The provenance of the (eventual!) alert to the Renault is established and innocent.
The alert to the toy was a plea to have the toy back.
The (apparent)! alert to clothing was second time of asking after nothing was alerted to in the villa (with wholesale disregard to principles of cross-contamination)
The alert in apartment 5a came only after constant direction and re-direction.
None of it inspired confidence.
None of it would have been accepted in court (even, I reckon, a Scottish court).
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some of us are passionate people...some are not...I see the persecution of the mccanns as vile...yet you think it's ok
You forget that many people and not just in the UK , will find the behaviour of the mccanns vile.
Has that ever crossed your mind ?
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You forget that many people and not just in the UK , will find the behaviour of the mccanns vile.
Has that ever crossed your mind ?
most people around the world dont understand how they left the children stephen it isnt a normal thing to do in society
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They tell us the dogs alerted to substances, some of which could be substances for which they were trained. You might call it useless but I call it evidence with potential.
No they don't. All alerts were after constant direction and re-direction from the handler.
There was disregard of principles of cross-contamination.
The vehicle alert has an innocent explanation.
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No they don't. All alerts were after constant direction and re-direction from the handler.
There was disregard of principles of cross-contamination.
The vehicle alert has an innocent explanation.
What is your opinion worth in this matter ?
Have you handled dogs before ?
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What is your opinion worth in this matter ?
Have you handled dogs before ?
Opinion?
I have stated facts.
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Opinion?
I have stated facts.
Have you handled dogs in this field of investigative work, YES or NO ?
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Have you handled dogs in this field of investigative work, YES or NO ?
What's that got to do with anything?
Did Eddie or did Eddie not play with cuddle cat?
Did Eddie or did Eddie not react to cuddle-cat only after it was hidden?
Did both dogs or did both dogs not trample all over stuff that was laid out in the gym?
Did Eddie or did Eddie not pick stuff up in his mouth?
Did a PJ inspector or did a PJ Inspector not comment with puzzlement that the dog reacted (eventually) after returning to spots he had passed several times without reacting?
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They tell us the dogs alerted to substances, some of which could be substances for which they were trained. You might call it useless but I call it evidence with potential.
What substances did they alert to then and how might these be potentially useful in this case?
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They tell us the dogs alerted to substances, some of which could be substances for which they were trained. You might call it useless but I call it evidence with potential.
potential for what...please expand...nothing was found at the site eddie alerted to...nothing can confirm that alert. I Maddie's body was found tomorrow that does not mean she died in the apartment.
I say the alerts are useless because they tell us nothing...can anyone tell me what the alerts tell us..
remember Grime says no evidential value....you and others can post all you like but you cannot tell us what information the alerts give us
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What false logic.?
That because both dogs react to the same place must mean the alert was to blood, it's possible and probable if you like, (stretching it because why use Keela at all if Eddie alerts to blood in an area which would only require use of luminol to confirm) but not certain...the reason I added that a strong DNA match was required as corroboration, was not because it would prove just the presence of blood but that a victims DNA was found, which is the nearest corroboration you can have for the cadaver dog alerts to cadaver scent, iyswim....
your two premises are correct IE Eddie alerts to blood, keela alerts to blood, but your conclusion is not,because Eddie also alerts to dead body scent which is different, if it was not different there would be no need in the first place to make a differentiation between the two and use two types of dogs..anyway bored with labouring points....you have your beliefs,(right or wrong) I have my understandings(right or wrong) bit pointless to keep argueing the toss forever more...life's too short lol
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That because both dogs react to the same place must mean the alert was to blood, it's possible and probable if you like, (stretching it because why use Keela at all if Eddie alerts to blood in an area which would only require use of luminol to confirm) but not certain...the reason I added that a strong DNA match was required as corroboration, was not because it would prove just the presence of blood but that a victims DNA was found, which is the nearest corroboration you can have for the cadaver dog alerts to cadaver scent, iyswim....
your two premises are correct IE Eddie alerts to blood, keela alerts to blood, but your conclusion is not,because Eddie also alerts to dead body scent which is different, if it was not different there would be no need in the first place to make a differentiation between the two and use two types of dogs..anyway bored with labouring points....you have your beliefs,(right or wrong) I have my understandings(right or wrong) bit pointless to keep argueing the toss forever more...life's too short lol
without confirmation the alerts are meaningless..full stop ...move on
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I deplore the fact that people, to the present day, speculate how "cadaver scent" got on Kate's clothes; "cadaver scent" got on cuddle-cat; "cadaver scent" got in to the Renault Scenic; "cadaver scent" got in the holiday apartment.
Blame for all that baseless speculation rests with one man ....
Ridiculous assertion....Harrison and Grime and all other cadaver dog handlers say cadaver dogs can react to remnant cadaver scent....so NOT speculation or baseless from Mr Amaral at all, why do you insist on twisting things? your vindictive vendetta is getting a tad boring.
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Good deflection from the fact that Eddie as a cadaver dog was well past his sell by date both in Praia da Luz and at Haute de la Garenne ~ but it doesn't change the fact.
Jersey was NOT Eddies final deployment so why did you call it a finale??? Do try and get facts correct before making assertions, thank you, spreading misinformation helps no one...oh hang on
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Jersey was NOT Eddies final deployment so why did you call it a finale??? Do try and get facts correct before making assertions, thank you, spreading misinformation helps no one...oh hang on
If it wasn't his final deployment it was most certainly the end of his credibility. I know that Martin Grime took Morse and Keela to America, what cases did Eddie work on after Haute de la Garenne?
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If it wasn't his final deployment it was most certainly the end of his credibility. I know that Martin Grime took Morse and Keela to America, what cases did Eddie work on after Haute de la Garenne?
In your unprofessional opinion of course
People have long spouted that Eddie never worked again post PDL...right here on this forum....there's (ignoring Jersey which obviously slipped their minds) at least one USA case in Sept 2007 and a Northern Ireland case in 2010 where he was deployed..the latter being direct testament that the UK authorities chose to use him "despite" not being "accredited"..and despite havng their own sniffer dogs,and don't forget, not all stories contain details on whether dogs were used/which dogs were used
Refs are :Teresa Parker and Bob Rose murders
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In your unprofessional opinion of course
People have long spouted that Eddie never worked again post PDL...right here on this forum....there's (ignoring Jersey which obviously slipped their minds) at least one USA case in Sept 2007 and a Northern Ireland case in 2010 where he was deployed..the latter being direct testament that the UK authorities chose to use him "despite" not being "accredited"..and despite havng their own sniffer dogs,and don't forget, not all stories contain details on whether dogs were used/which dogs were used
Refs are :Teresa Parker and Bob Rose murders
I believe in Mrs Parker's case there was something about the cadaver dog woofing at a derelict building next door and the claim being made that the alert was due to someone having burned to death in it. Not what one would term a resounding success.
The search for Mr Rose benefited from the perpetrator of the crime taking the team including Eddie, Keela and Morse to the dunes where the internment of the remains had been carried out ... even at that I believe it was some time before they found him.
You are most definitely correct that dog handlers tend to work below the radar despite quite often being called to give evidence in court. In fact I can't think of another instance in which the handlers receive any publicity to the extent we know who they are ... in the case of the dogs they seem to be named only in relation to association with Madeleine McCann. Who knew Tito and Muzzy had searched for April until they turned up in Praia da Luz?
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I believe in Mrs Parker's case there was something about the cadaver dog woofing at a derelict building next door and the claim being made that the alert was due to someone having burned to death in it. Not what one would term a resounding success.
The search for Mr Rose benefited from the perpetrator of the crime taking the team including Eddie, Keela and Morse to the dunes where the internment of the remains had been carried out ... even at that I believe it was some time before they found him.
You are most definitely correct that dog handlers tend to work below the radar despite quite often being called to give evidence in court. In fact I can't think of another instance in which the handlers receive any publicity to the extent we know who they are ... in the case of the dogs they seem to be named only in relation to association with Madeleine McCann. Who knew Tito and Muzzy had searched for April until they turned up in Praia da Luz?
Ok, so first you make a (wrong) categoric statement about when Eddie was last deployed, (IE jersey) and suggesting reasons why, IE "past his sell by date" I correct you, And say your categoric statement was untrue, you then ask me why, give an example, which I do, and you most predictably then go on to trash the dog with a few reasons which proves youwere making statements while at the same time feigning ignorance of those cases unless you were speedy Gonzales on google...so embarrassingly laughable
And as for the media in more current years naming dogs, it IS a new development and it had nothing to do with with McCann case per se and mostly because any similarities in most high profile cases with links in any shape or form are normally brought into discussion anyway in various details...so pls don't try and create another myth
Ps...why am I getting jassis avatar lol at the end of my posts before submit with a header of attachments and other options and then the words
shortcuts: hit alt+s to submit/post or alt+p to preview
4am glitches? Or new forum project in mid construction? See it after submitting as a quick reply option at the bottom but squeezed and seemingly non functional?
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That because both dogs react to the same place must mean the alert was to blood, it's possible and probable if you like, (stretching it because why use Keela at all if Eddie alerts to blood in an area which would only require use of luminol to confirm) but not certain...the reason I added that a strong DNA match was required as corroboration, was not because it would prove just the presence of blood but that a victims DNA was found, which is the nearest corroboration you can have for the cadaver dog alerts to cadaver scent, iyswim....
your two premises are correct IE Eddie alerts to blood, keela alerts to blood, but your conclusion is not,because Eddie also alerts to dead body scent which is different, if it was not different there would be no need in the first place to make a differentiation between the two and use two types of dogs..anyway bored with labouring points....you have your beliefs,(right or wrong) I have my understandings(right or wrong) bit pointless to keep argueing the toss forever more...life's too short lol
No.
In fairness, you've set your position very clearly and I (now) understand what you are getting at. In the Attracta Harron case, Eddie alerted to the car of the man eventually convicted of her murder and human traces were found (blood, I think) which matched the DNA profile of the victim, and that was instrumental in the subsequent conviction of her murderer.
So yes, in the abstract, it is possible that Keela and Eddie could alert in the same spot, and evidence could be uncovered with cracks a crime.
You make a good point well.
In the specific, however, (as I'm sure you realise) finding traces of Madeleine's blood in the apartment would be no big deal. And, of course, both dogs indicating in the same place would indicate blood rather than cadaver odour.
In fairness, Amaral understood that, and said so in his book.
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No.
In fairness, you've set your position very clearly and I (now) understand what you are getting at. In the Attracta Harron case, Eddie alerted to the car of the man eventually convicted of her murder and human traces were found (blood, I think) which matched the DNA profile of the victim, and that was instrumental in the subsequent conviction of her murderer.
So yes, in the abstract, it is possible that Keela and Eddie could alert in the same spot, and evidence could be uncovered with cracks a crime.
You make a good point well.
In the specific, however, (as I'm sure you realise) finding traces of Madeleine's blood in the apartment would be no big deal. And, of course, both dogs indicating in the same place would indicate blood rather than cadaver odour.
In fairness, Amaral understood that, and said so in his book.
And where Eddie alerts and Keela doesn't, in the bedroom for example, would exclude the scent being blood and would be more likely to be cadaver odour.
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And where Eddie alerts and Keela doesn't, in the bedroom for example, would exclude the scent being blood and would be more likely to be cadaver odour.
In the theory you set out yesterday and which has now been removed from the forum for being libellous there would not have been time for cadaver scent to have developed. I know we can't discuss it here but I thought it worth pointing out that you'll have to revise your theory somewhat. ?{)(**
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In the theory you set out yesterday and which has now been removed from the forum for being libellous there would not have been time for cadaver scent to have developed. I know we can't discuss it here but I thought it worth pointing out that you'll have to revise your theory somewhat. ?{)(**
Am I right in thinking that Keela made two false alerts to the curtains which were sent off to the FSS for testing?
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In the theory you set out yesterday and which has now been removed from the forum for being libellous there would not have been time for cadaver scent to have developed. I know we can't discuss it here but I thought it worth pointing out that you'll have to revise your theory somewhat. ?{)(**
So, hypothetically speaking, do we know how quickly cadaver odour develops after death in the body of a child ?
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So, hypothetically speaking, do we know how quickly cadaver odour develops after death in the body of a child ?
There have been some studies done I believe. I'm sure they've been posted on here before - I seem to recall 90 minutes to 2 hours, but I'm sure someone will be along to verify shortly.
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And where Eddie alerts and Keela doesn't, in the bedroom for example, would exclude the scent being blood and would be more likely to be cadaver odour.
Unfortunately (for the cause of establishing the truth of what happened to Madeleine) all Eddie's alerts in the first PdL investigation are discredited for the reasons I have set out repeatedly in numerous posts on this board.
And since everything sent to the FSS was reacted to by Keela, it may or may not be relevant that John Lowe's report contains not one single use of the word blood ....
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http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
snip>>>>>>
PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.<<<<<< snip
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http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/06/smell-death-cadaver-body-decay
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http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
snip>>>>>>
PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.<<<<<< snip
Many thanks. So, as I say - that kind of knocks Faithlilly's (let's not get into it now) theory on the head.
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There have been some studies done I believe. I'm sure they've been posted on here before - I seem to recall 90 minutes to 2 hours, but I'm sure someone will be along to verify shortly.
Where the studies carried out on the cadaver of a child. Does a child decompose at the same rate as an adult ? Pertinent questions I'm sure you'll agree.
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Where the studies carried out on the cadaver of a child. Does a child decompose at the same rate as an adult ? Pertinent questions I'm sure you'll agree.
(Oops replied to wrong message. Ignore)
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Where the studies carried out on the cadaver of a child. Does a child decompose at the same rate as an adult ? Pertinent questions I'm sure you'll agree.
Very pertinent.
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And where Eddie alerts and Keela doesn't, in the bedroom for example, would exclude the scent being blood and would be more likely to be cadaver odour.
Not necessarily Faithlilly, I will repeat what scientists who did a study of cadaver dogs stated and that is cadaver dogs will alert to something that had blood on it and had been removed from the area, Keela would not do this.
Also they said that cadaver dogs could alert to the scent of rotting vegetation.
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Many thanks. So, as I say - that kind of knocks Faithlilly's (let's not get into it now) theory on the head.
The time period just mentioned does fit into the timeline, just about. Theoretically.
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http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
snip>>>>>>
PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.<<<<<< snip
Yes, I believe that to be about right.
I remember reading when a head was found in a park in America [by someone out walking their dog, not a cadaver dog by the way] the forensic scientist on the scene was asked when a dog would pick up the scent of cadaver and he said after about four hours.
This forensic scientist I may add was the one involved in the Casey Anthony trial.
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The time period just mentioned does fit into the timeline, just about. Theoretically.
Not with Faithlilly's theory it doesn't.
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Where the studies carried out on the cadaver of a child. Does a child decompose at the same rate as an adult ? Pertinent questions I'm sure you'll agree.
What a lovely question to consider just prior to dinner, thanks. As adults and children are made up of the same stuff, I'm not sure why they would decompose at a different rate, but by all means bring us any scientific evidence you have to support your contention.
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Not with Faithlilly's theory it doesn't.
Ah, Ok. I didn't read it.
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What a lovely question to consider just prior to dinner, thanks. As adults and children are made up of the same stuff, I'm not sure why they would decompose at a different rate, but by all means bring us any scientific evidence you have to support your contention.
Probably nobody would be talking about, or have any wish to talk about it. But Laurel and Hardy keep starting threads to talk about the dogs and have yet another pop at Mr Grime. Hence people are talking about it.
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I just looked up the article about the head found in America, Nancy Grace interviewed the forensic scientist and asked him when a body would give off Cadaver scent and he didn't say four hours, sorry, he said 12 hours to 24 hours!!!! http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1201/18/ng.01.html
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http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680032-overview
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=do+corpses+decompose+at+different+rates
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Probably nobody would be talking about, or have any wish to talk about it. But Laurel and Hardy keep starting threads to talk about the dogs and have yet another pop at Mr Grime. Hence people are talking about it.
By Laurel and Hardy do you mean two members of this forum? How rude.
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I just looked up the article about the head found in America, Nancy Grace interviewed the forensic scientist and asked him when a body would give off Cadaver scent and he didn't say four hours, sorry, he said 12 hours to 24 hours!!!! http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1201/18/ng.01.html
Yeah, but come on, what does he know for god's sake - he's not a Dogspert!!!
DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, within -- depending on there temperature there at the scene, within 12 hours, 24 hours, you should be -- begin producing cadaverine and putrescine. And these chemicals are very volatile. They can get through plastic. Even if the -- if these body parts are wrapped in plastic, they`ll get through it. And the dogs have just, you know, a thousand times the sensitivity of humans for these chemicals, and they`re trained to hit on it. So I -- if there`s anything out there, I think the dogs will be able to find it.
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http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680032-overview
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=do+corpses+decompose+at+different+rates
looks like you've been busy using google
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looks like you've been busy using google
Questions were being asked.
References have been given. 8)-)))
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Probably nobody would be talking about, or have any wish to talk about it. But Laurel and Hardy keep starting threads to talk about the dogs and have yet another pop at Mr Grime. Hence people are talking about it.
Funny isn't it, when people have a 'pop' at the McCann's that's fine isn't it.
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I believe rigor mortis develops at a different rate in adults and children therefore I suppose the same could in theory happen with cadaver scent.
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Funny isn't it, when people have a 'pop' at the McCann's that's fine isn't it.
Well funnily enough, what are these threads all about ?
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Questions were being asked.
References have been given. 8)-)))
so you now realise how useful google can be
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so you now realise how useful google can be
It wasn't for my benefit dave.
I've noticed a tendency for some people to copy and paste material they don't understand.
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It wasn't for my benefit dave.
I've noticed a tendency for some people to copy and paste material they don't understand.
I've seen people draw conclusions on evidence they don't understand
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I believe rigor mortis develops at a different rate in adults and children therefore I suppose the same could in theory happen with cadaver scent.
I expect Alice will know, and I'm sure he'll find it's highly likely that you're right. 8(0(*
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Yes, I believe that to be about right.
I remember reading when a head was found in a park in America [by someone out walking their dog, not a cadaver dog by the way] the forensic scientist on the scene was asked when a dog would pick up the scent of cadaver and he said after about four hours.
This forensic scientist I may add was the one involved in the Casey Anthony trial.
You have written peer reviewed papers on the topic ?
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I expect Alice will know, and I'm sure he'll find it's highly likely that you're right. 8(0(*
Haven't clue.
All that this haraz shows up is why courts don't do science and do law.
For every expert that says "A" is the case another will say no "It's a bulls foot".
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You have written peer reviewed papers on the topic ?
Faithlilly stated she believes rigor mortis develops at different rates between adults and children. Why didn't you ask her the above question too?
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Faithlilly stated she believes rigor mortis develops at different rates between adults and children. Why didn't you ask her the above question too?
Why don't you research that yourself ?
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Faithlilly stated she believes rigor mortis develops at different rates between adults and children. Why didn't you ask her the above question too?
Faithlilly says "she believes that......"
Lace says of a scientific paper "yes I think that's right" or something similar.
Spot the difference and spot why Faith's comment would not elicit the same response as Lace's.
Now lets not start a dreadfully esoteric conversation over something that is really quite simple.
You will be talking to thyself Alf.
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Faithlilly says "she believes that......"
Lace says of a scientific paper "yes I think that's right" or something similar.
Spot the difference and spot why Faith's comment would not elicit the same response as Lace's.
Now lets not start a dreadfully esoteric conversation over something that is really quite simple.
You will be talking to thyself Alf.
I don't see much difference between starting a sentence with "I think" and one with "I believe" but no doubt there's a huge difference that I'm far too dumb to spot.
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I don't see much difference between starting a sentence with "I think" and one with "I believe" but no doubt there's a huge difference that I'm far too dumb to spot.
And now I know for a fact that in individuals with a low body mass, such as children and old people, develop rigor mortis quicker than the average adult. So no more believing anymore Alfie and no more to worry on your part.
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And now I know for a fact that in individuals with a low body mass, such as children and old people, develop rigor mortis quicker than the average adult. So no more believing anymore Alfie and no more to worry on your part.
you have written peer reviewed papers on the topic?
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you have written peer reviewed papers on the topic?
No but I have read several.
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No but I have read several.
Has that got anything to do with bone density or thinner skin Faith?
oh look at you being watched you notty notty girl!!
Here's looking at you kid ?>)()<
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You have written peer reviewed papers on the topic ?
No Alice, have you?
I was going by what experts have said using their experience. Though stating four hours for that particular expert was wrong he said 12 to 24 hours.
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No Alice, have you?
I was going by what experts have said using their experience. Though stating four hours for that particular expert was wrong he said 12 to 24 hours.
Others say different.
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No but I have read several.
But nothing to support your contention that children's corpses emit cadaver odour quicker than adult corpses?
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I suppose, when the principal theme of a thread is settled, it's fair enough to drift off on to other topics.
To be clear, Keela and Eddie never worked together as a team before the Madeleine investigation ....
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Well funnily enough, what are these threads all about ?
Yes, and Grime plays a significant part in the McCann case, if people are going to shout 'libel' or what ever every time Grime is mentioned, then the same should be done for the McCann's.
Any way no one is saying that Eddie didn't do his job, just that what he alerted to could have been a scent that was once there and taken away or that rotted vegetation for example could have been walked in from the garden or even garden fertiliser.
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Others say different.
Yes, I know that but I wonder what the alert for 'cadaver' is compared for the alert for 'alive' given to the dogs in the trial using the pads?
Anyway, the length of time is too long for Madeleine to have been lying in the apartment dead.
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I suppose, when the principal theme of a thread is settled, it's fair enough to drift off on to other topics.
To be clear, Keela and Eddie never worked together as a team before the Madeleine investigation ....
You are quite right ferryman, all off topic.
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Yes, I know that but I wonder what the alert for 'cadaver' is compared for the alert for 'alive' given to the dogs in the trial using the pads?
Anyway, the length of time is too long for Madeleine to have been lying in the apartment dead.
That is supposition.
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That is supposition.
Well I can't see how Madeleine could have been lying there for 2 and a half to three hours, can you?
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Well I can't see how Madeleine could have been lying there for 2 and a half to three hours, can you?
It doesn't have to be for that period.
I suggest you read up the articles and do more research.
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To be clear, Keela and Eddie never worked together as a team before the Madeleine investigation ....
Here you go FM
There are three cases alone in this article where they did - two in Ireland and one in the USA
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
By Brendan McDaid
PUBLISHED
06/12/2006
*
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
*
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Ms Walsh's disappearance sparked the largest man-hunt ever mounted in the Republic's south east after members of the public joined detectives and garda in their search when the mother-of-one failed to show up for her work on October 2.
Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie, who has also been involved in searches for 15-year-old Arlene Arkinson, to the Republic.
Eddie helped police put evil killer Trevor Hamilton behind bars earlier this year after the victim recovery dog found 63-year-old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie also found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs' trip to the US occurred shortly after Eddie returned to Ulster earlier this year for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
The Tyrone teenager went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13, 1994.
Mr Grime said today: "We are now waiting to here about the Arlene Arkinson case. A review on that is due shortly. We don't give up."
A garda spokeswoman said today that investigations into the death of Ms Walsh were ongoing.
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Here you go FM
There are three cases alone in this article where they did - two in Ireland and one in the USA
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
By Brendan McDaid
PUBLISHED
06/12/2006
*
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
*
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Ms Walsh's disappearance sparked the largest man-hunt ever mounted in the Republic's south east after members of the public joined detectives and garda in their search when the mother-of-one failed to show up for her work on October 2.
Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie, who has also been involved in searches for 15-year-old Arlene Arkinson, to the Republic.
Eddie helped police put evil killer Trevor Hamilton behind bars earlier this year after the victim recovery dog found 63-year-old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie also found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs' trip to the US occurred shortly after Eddie returned to Ulster earlier this year for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
The Tyrone teenager went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13, 1994.
Mr Grime said today: "We are now waiting to here about the Arlene Arkinson case. A review on that is due shortly. We don't give up."
A garda spokeswoman said today that investigations into the death of Ms Walsh were ongoing.
OK thanks.
Meg Walsh's husband was tried for her murder and acquitted.
I can't find a record of whether the crime was solved.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/husband-found-not-guilty-in-meg-walsh-murder-trial-26444742.html
The link I gave earlier seems to have gone walkies with article, all except the header.
So here is the text of a different article with the same story:
A Waterford bus driver was today cleared of murdering his wife by a jury at the Central Criminal Court in Dublin.
The jury of seven men and five women took five hours and twenty minutes to find bus driver, John O'Brien (aged 41) with an address in Ballinakill Downs, Co Waterford not guilty of the murder of 35-year-old Meg Walsh on a date between October 1, 2006 and October 15, 2006. He had pleaded not guilty to the charge.
The jury retired to consider their verdict on Thursday afternoon and returned with a verdict this afternoon.
Mr Justice Barry White thanked the jury for their careful deliberation and excused them from further jury service for life.
In a statement to media after the verdict Mr O'Brien's solicitor Finola Cronin said: "John and his family would like to thank the jury for looking at the facts and reaching their decision." She thanked the defence team and those family and friends who had supported them through the investigation and the trial.
"They would like to ask the media to respect their privacy and to allow them to grieve for Meg and for John's father who passed away during this traumatic time."
Speaking to journalists after the verdict Meg's brother John Walsh described his sister as "a lovely woman, bubbly, happy, a caring woman, a great mother and we miss her terribly."
The mother of one's body was recovered from the River Suir two weeks after her disappearance. She was naked apart from a heavy gold chain.
She had died from blunt force trauma to the head and also had severe bruising to her right shoulder, arm and stomach. Several fingers had been broken and her skull had been cracked "like a boiled egg" in two places.
During the four-week trial the jury heard that Ms Walsh had disappeared after having words with her husband after he caught her kissing another man after a night drinking on Saturday, September 30.
Mr O'Brien told gardaí he woke up at around 1pm and Meg was still asleep upstairs. He said he went for a drive out to his native Tramore, buying a copy of the Sunday World on the way. He parked on the promenade and spent most of the afternoon listening to the radio and reading the paper.
He returned home some time after 5pm. Meg was in the living room watching television. They had further words about the kiss the previous night before Mr O'Brien went upstairs and watched the RTE News, Emmerdale and Coronation Street.
He said he heard Meg moving around the house and taking a shower. At around 8.30pm he heard her leave the house and drive off. That was the last time she was seen.
Her best friend, Lorraine Cuddihy began to get worried when Meg didn't answer a text sent that morning. She sent several more texts during the day but none were returned. During the trial the jury heard evidence that the last time Meg's phone registered any activity was just before 2pm after which the phone had been turned off or rendered unusable. Gardaí never located the phone.
Ms Cuddihy started calling the phone at around 7pm. She was trying to arrange for Meg to meet up with her in the bar of the Woodlands Hotel. She told the jury she tried to ring her friend's phone "100 times" between 7pm and late that night.
At around 10pm she and her partner, David Maloney, with another mutual acquaintance from the bar, walked the short distance to the house in Ballinakill Downs but did not receive an answer. Mr O'Brien told the court he had gone out for a walk at around 9pm.
The three went back to the bar and Ms Cuddihy tried to ring again. She then borrowed a notepad from the barman and wrote a note.
"Hiya. Hope you OK??? Called earlier cos u phone is off. Text me!!!!"
She and Mr Moloney, again accompanied by a friend from the bar went back to the house. It was around midnight. Ms Cuddihy put the note through the door and they headed back to the bar.
The following day Meg did not turn up for work at Meadowcourt Homes.
Her boss, Mr Noel Power called his wife, Karen and the site manager, Mr Patrick Madigan and the three went to Meg's house. Meg's car was still missing. Mr Power rang a friend of his, garda Kevin Donohue and told him that Meg was missing.
That evening after giving a statement to gardaí and finishing his shift at work told gardaí Mr O'Brien told gardai he spent the next few hours "spinning around" looking for Meg's car.
On October 4 Meg's car was found abandoned in the carpark attached to the Uluru pub. There were blood stains on the back of the driver's seat, the inside of the driver's door and on the outside, the door pillar and the driver's side rear bumper. Blood had been wiped off the outside of the car and the inside of the boot.
The boot lining and spare wheel cover from the boot were missing when the car was found. When they were located thrown into the undergrowth edging the car park they were found to have Meg's blood on them.
A week later gardaí found two cut-off pieces from the mat and the wheel cover. Both fragments were found to be heavily stained with Meg's blood.
Her body was recovered from the River Suir on October 15.
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Well I can't see how Madeleine could have been lying there for 2 and a half to three hours, can you?
Even if she'd been lying there dead for 90 minutes I've yet to see any research that says a dog will be able to detect the presence of a 90 minute old corpse three months after it has been moved from the vicinity.
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It doesn't have to be for that period.
I suggest you read up the articles and do more research.
That's the length of time in the article you put a link to involving the pads.
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That's the length of time in the article you put a link to involving the pads.
It wasn't the only time reference lace, and there are a plethora more available online as you will be aware of, showing that cadaver scent can be detected earlier, and let's not forget just how effective dogs are in detecting scents.
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the dog's alerts are not supported by any real scientific evidence...so everything is pure speculation...from what I have raed I cannot see how remnant scent could survive in the flower bed for 3 months
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the dog's alerts are not supported by any real scientific evidence...
If a cadaver dog alerts then the police want to know why. The dog didn't alert at any other property so it's no surprise to the police that the dog only alerted from where the missing girl went missing from. SY have a homicide squad working on this case because of the dog alerts.
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If a cadaver dog alerts then the police want to know why. The dog didn't alert at any other property so it's no surprise to the police that the dog only alerted from where the missing girl went missing from. SY have a homicide squad working on this case because of the dog alerts.
the alerts are meaningless
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Here you go FM
There are three cases alone in this article where they did - two in Ireland and one in the USA
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
By Brendan McDaid
PUBLISHED
06/12/2006
*
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
*
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Ms Walsh's disappearance sparked the largest man-hunt ever mounted in the Republic's south east after members of the public joined detectives and garda in their search when the mother-of-one failed to show up for her work on October 2.
Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie, who has also been involved in searches for 15-year-old Arlene Arkinson, to the Republic.
Eddie helped police put evil killer Trevor Hamilton behind bars earlier this year after the victim recovery dog found 63-year-old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie also found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs' trip to the US occurred shortly after Eddie returned to Ulster earlier this year for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
The Tyrone teenager went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13, 1994.
Mr Grime said today: "We are now waiting to here about the Arlene Arkinson case. A review on that is due shortly. We don't give up."
A garda spokeswoman said today that investigations into the death of Ms Walsh were ongoing.
Interesting that Eddie led them to a creek beside a civil war graveyard.
It is known that cadaver dogs alert to grave sites and are used to locate them.
**Snip
As eluded to above, the identification of soil discontinuity, while valuable, does not equate to “corpse was buried here.” To get us closer to that type of discrimination, a variety of other tools are used, including human remains detection (HRD) dogs.
HRD (“cadaver”) dogs are specially trained canines, using their great sense of smell to sniff out and alert to scents of human decomposition. As with geophysical techniques, HRD dogs can help triage search areas and, when used together, greatly assist investigators on deciding where to dig. But, like geophysical techniques, HRD dogs have their limitations.
http://www.americanscientist.org/blog/pub/how-forensic-scientists-find-a-dead-body
So if Eddie didn't locate his target ... he may very well have been alerting to drainage from the civil war graves ending in the creek.
Not what the humans were looking for but actually well within the dog's trained response.
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the alerts are meaningless
Not if they get corroborating evidence.
The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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If a cadaver dog alerts then the police want to know why. The dog didn't alert at any other property so it's no surprise to the police that the dog only alerted from where the missing girl went missing from. SY have a homicide squad working on this case because of the dog alerts.
I think it might have been a surprise to some policemen that Eddie spent (comparatively) the blink of an eye in all the other apartments, and an inordinate length of time in apartment 5a ...
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the dog's alerts are not supported by any real scientific evidence...so everything is pure speculation...from what I have raed I cannot see how remnant scent could survive in the flower bed for 3 months
Can you cite the evidence for that and any contradictory information.
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Can you cite the evidence for that and any contradictory information.
evidence for what...I've just stated that everything is speculation
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evidence for what...I've just stated that everything is speculation
Read my last post, in connection to one of yours, as regards 'flower beds'.
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Read my last post, in connection to one of yours, as regards 'flower beds'.
I cant see the scent lasting 3 months outside in a flower bed...do you have any evidence to contradict this...no
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I cant see the scent lasting 3 months outside in a flower bed...do you have any evidence to contradict this...no
Your opinion has no value.
Now can you back it up with actual unadulterated facts ?
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I cant see the scent lasting 3 months outside in a flower bed...do you have any evidence to contradict this...no
That's a good point. If there was simply a few scent molecules on the surface of a few leaves, you may reasonably argue those molecules would after almost 3 months have been washed away by rain.
Moving briefly to one of SY's hypotheses (burglary gone wrong) is it possible one of that hypothetical burglary gone wrong gang quickly hid some small secondary bit of evidence in soil in flowerbed and it was still there almost 3 months later? Seems unlikely but just trying to find a plausible way to solve the problem you mentioned.
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Your opinion has no value.
Now can you back it up with actual unadulterated facts ?
Alerts inadmissible in court have no value or relevance
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Alerts inadmissible in court have no value or relevance
Not quite as simple as that.
...and of course your posts merely reflect how important it is to you and the mccanns to denigrate the dogs indications.
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Not quite as simple as that.
...and of course your posts merely reflect how important it is to you and the mccanns to denigrate the dogs indications.
Every bit as simple as that.
And I have never posted a single word against the dogs.
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That's a good point. If there was simply a few scent molecules on the surface of a few leaves, you may reasonably argue those molecules would after almost 3 months have been washed away by rain.
Moving briefly to one of SY's hypotheses (burglary gone wrong) is it possible one of that hypothetical burglary gone wrong gang quickly hid some small secondary bit of evidence in soil in flowerbed and it was still there almost 3 months later? Seems unlikely but just trying to find a plausible way to solve the problem you mentioned.
Or a body lay at the bottom of the foliage for somewhere over 40 minutes causing the area to be contaminated by cadaver scent ?
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Every bit as simple as that.
And I have never posted a single word against the dogs.
NO, it isn't as simple as that.
Your attacks and libelous posts on Grime reflect the truth.
Just because some have been deleted, does not mean they have disappeared.
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NO, it isn't as simple as that.
Your attacks and libelous posts on Grimes reflect the truth.
Just because some have been deleted, does not mean they have disappeared.
Who is Grimes?
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No Alice, have you?
I was going by what experts have said using their experience. Though stating four hours for that particular expert was wrong he said 12 to 24 hours.
No. I merely posted a link to part of a research project a decade before the disappearance of MM.
You very learnedly said "that sounds about right" or something similar as though you were an authority on the topic.
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Who is Grimes?
No need for that.
You know whom I meant.
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Your opinion has no value.
Now can you back it up with actual unadulterated facts ?
GROUNDHOG DAY...no ones opinion on here has any value.....purely from basic chemistry I cannot see any molecules being present after 3 months
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GROUNDHOG DAY...no ones opinion on here has any value.....purely from basic chemistry I cannot see any molecules being present after 3 months
Cite please.
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Here you go FM
There are three cases alone in this article where they did - two in Ireland and one in the USA
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
By Brendan McDaid
PUBLISHED
06/12/2006
*
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.
*
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Ms Walsh's disappearance sparked the largest man-hunt ever mounted in the Republic's south east after members of the public joined detectives and garda in their search when the mother-of-one failed to show up for her work on October 2.
Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie, who has also been involved in searches for 15-year-old Arlene Arkinson, to the Republic.
Eddie helped police put evil killer Trevor Hamilton behind bars earlier this year after the victim recovery dog found 63-year-old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie also found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs' trip to the US occurred shortly after Eddie returned to Ulster earlier this year for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
The Tyrone teenager went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13, 1994.
Mr Grime said today: "We are now waiting to here about the Arlene Arkinson case. A review on that is due shortly. We don't give up."
A garda spokeswoman said today that investigations into the death of Ms Walsh were ongoing.
That kills off this thread then mercury. QED
And from the ashes like a Phoenix rises another bleedin' dog thread.
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Cite please.
surely you can work that out for yourself
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surely you can work that out for yourself
So you have no cite ?
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GROUNDHOG DAY...no ones opinion on here has any value.....purely from basic chemistry I cannot see any molecules being present after 3 months
There were lots of molecules still there after three months. If there weren't there would have been an empty void. When Eddie stood on the flowerbed did he fall into the void caused by the complete absence of molecules and disappear forever? I have checked the video and he does not disappear, which IMO indicates there were possibly still at least a few molecules there for him to stand on.
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So you have no cite ?
what part of my posts don't you understand
there is no science to back the alerts
therefore everything is personal opinion.
personal opinions are not supported by cites otherwise they would be more than opinion...
however anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry would realise that a small residue would disappear due to wind and rain..via vapourisation and rain dilution.....there would therefore be no molecules left
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That kills off this thread then mercury. QED
And from the ashes like a Phoenix rises another bleedin' dog thread.
Does it?
UK police dogs used to search home of Meg Walsh
Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 01:00
First published:
Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 01:00
Four sniffer dogs brought to house for second search after body found
Barry Roche,
Southern Correspondent
Gardaí investigating the murder of Waterford woman Meg Walsh have carried out an examination of her home in the city using specialist sniffer dogs brought in from Britain to see if they could find any evidence of her being killed at her house.
Three sniffer dogs from Wales along with a specialist sniffer dog from Yorkshire searched the detached house at Ballinakill Downs where Ms Walsh lived with her husband, bus driver John O'Brien.
The house had been examined by Garda technical experts in the week following Ms Walsh's disappearance on October 1st but gardaí later handed back the house to Mr O'Brien.
However on Sunday, following the discovery of Ms Walsh's naked and badly beaten body in the River Suir, gardaí under Supt Dave Sheahan took possession of the house again and cordoned it off for further examination by the specialist dog units from Britain.
One of the dogs, Keela, an English springer spaniel belonging to the South Yorkshire Police, has been used by police forces all over the UK and by the FBI in the US to locate blood and other human fluids for evidential purposes.
According to a spokesman for South Yorkshire Police, Keela has been "specifically trained to detect minute human blood deposits" and can pinpoint deposits which are not detected by present forensic techniques.
Gardaí believe the dogs may be able to uncover any traces of blood or other human tissue belonging to Ms Walsh which could throw light on where exactly she was murdered in an attempt to move forward their investigation into her killing.
Supt Sheahan confirmed that gardaí are treating Ms Walsh's home as a crime scene and hope the search by the sniffer dogs will find some previously missed evidence.
He confirmed that the specialist dogs - who are accompanied by their handlers - will be available to gardaí for a number of days and they expect to use them at a number of locations around Waterford.
"We're also very anxious to locate where exactly Ms Walsh's body was dumped in the Suir and in that regard we will be using the sniffer dogs in searches along the river to try and locate where her killer disposed of her body."
Supt Sheahan also confirmed that gardaí are strongly of the belief that Ms Walsh's killer used her silver Mitsubishi Carisma car registration 01 W 2060 to transport and dispose of her body by dumping it in the river.
He said they had received a good response from the public to a reconstruction in which gardaí placed two similar Mitsubishi Carisma cars fitted with the same plates as Ms Walsh's car in two locations in Waterford city.
"The incident room was swamped with calls immediately after we carried out the reconstruction and we are currently working through those calls and assessing the information we received in the hope it will help us progress our inquiry," he said.
According to a senior Garda source, the movements of Ms Walsh's car following the last confirmed sighting at her home at 6am on October 1st and before it was found in the Uluru car park at 1.03am on October 4th are critical.
"A huge amount revolves around the movements of the car - if we can get information on that we believe we will make significant progress in bringing this investigation to a successful conclusion," said the source.
Meanwhile a rosary for Ms Walsh took place at Fermoy Hospital last night. Her body will be removed from the hospital tonight at 7pm to St Nicholas's church in her native Killavullen for requiem Mass at noon on Thursday.
If there were 4 sniffer dogs and 3 were from Wales (SAM dogs by the sound of it) that leaves one over, Keela ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/uk-police-dogs-used-to-search-home-of-meg-walsh-1.1016878
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Or a body lay at the bottom of the foliage for somewhere over 40 minutes causing the area to be contaminated by cadaver scent ?
Lain there how long after the moment of death?
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the alerts are meaningless
But they patently aren't meaningless to you and ferryman: You never stop talking about them!
Huge contradiction there.
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But they patently aren't meaningless to you and ferryman: You never stop talking about them!
Huge contradiction there.
We never stop underlying and emphasising how meaningless they are.
That is because (others) rattle on endlessly about "cadaver scent" here, there and everywhere.
What is meaningful is slaying the canard of cadaver scent (in respect of the first, shelved, enquiry and anything whatever to do with Madeleine's disappearance.)
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Nice find Mercury.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body." (MG)
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We never stop underlying and emphasising how meaningless they are.
That is because (others) rattle on endlessly about "cadaver scent" here, there and everywhere.
What is meaningful is slaying the canard of cadaver scent (in respect of the first, shelved, enquiry and anything whatever to do with Madeleine's disappearance.)
Well you've clearly failed at that. After eight years you should have a list of references as long as your arm to support your theory/theories.
But constructing such a list would be impossible since all anyone can possibly truthfully say is we simply don't know why the dogs alerted precisely where they did and nowhere else.
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Well you've clearly failed at that. After eight years you should have a list of references as long as your arm to support your theory/theories.
But constructing such a list would be impossible since all anyone can possibly truthfully say is we simply don't know why the dogs alerted precisely where they did and nowhere else.
Why then do so many "sceptics" insist on the importance and relevance of the dog alerts in this case?
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Well you've clearly failed at that. After eight years you should have a list of references as long as your arm to support your theory/theories.
But constructing such a list would be impossible since all anyone can possibly truthfully say is we simply don't know why the dogs alerted precisely where they did and nowhere else.
When you preach truth to minds unreceptive to receiving truth, there's nothing else you can do.
And since just about all I assert is in the official files, why would I need (other!) references?
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Why then do so many "sceptics" insist on the importance and relevance of the dog alerts in this case?
I can't speak for the masses out there in social media, or speak for anyone here either. On social media there's much exaggeration, we all know that. But on this forum weeks, even months, have gone by without people talking about dogs or alerts. Then you know who will start talking about them again, after which there's perfectly understandable motivation to defend MG's reputation from attacks.
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I can't speak for the masses out there in social media, or speak for anyone here either. On social media there's much exaggeration, we all know that. But on this forum weeks, even months, have gone by without people talking about dogs or alerts. Then you know who will start talking about them again, after which there's perfectly understandable motivation to defend MG's reputation from attacks.
Is there anything you think we'd be far better off discussing?
It's good to see that you think it's "perfectly understandable" to defend others from attacks which you feel are unwarranted, perhaps this will help you to understand (if you didn't already) why some people choose to defend the McCanns from accusations of immoral and illegal behaviour.
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what part of my posts don't you understand
there is no science to back the alerts
therefore everything is personal opinion.
personal opinions are not supported by cites otherwise they would be more than opinion...
however anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry would realise that a small residue would disappear due to wind and rain..via vapourisation and rain dilution.....there would therefore be no molecules left
Anyone with a basic knowledge of Chemistry would know there are many variables involved.
Such as Soil Chemistry (including pH), Temperature variances, Adsorption, rainfall, etc.
You have made a bland statement and that's all it is.
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When you preach truth to minds unreceptive to receiving truth, there's nothing else you can do.
And since just about all I assert is in the official files, why would I need (other!) references?
If you stuck to them nobody could have any issue. But you don't. You are inventing, or attempting to invent, pseudoscience.
There is no criticism at all of MG's work in the official documents released in 2008 is there. Therefore neither should you be critical.
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delete
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If you stuck to them nobody could have any issue. But you don't. You are inventing, or attempting to invent, pseudoscience.
There is no criticism at all of MG's work in the official documents released in 2008 is there. Therefore neither should you be critical.
There is.
But you have to read the files properly
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We never stop underlying and emphasising how meaningless they are.
That is because (others) rattle on endlessly about "cadaver scent" here, there and everywhere.
What is meaningful is slaying the canard of cadaver scent (in respect of the first, shelved, enquiry and anything whatever to do with Madeleine's disappearance.)
Where has the presence of cadaver scent been disproved ?
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There is.
But you have to read the files properly
Which you, of course, have done.
So why don't you attempt to enlighten us denser mortals ferryman ?
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Is there anything you think we'd be far better off discussing?
It's good to see that you think it's "perfectly understandable" to defend others from attacks which you feel are unwarranted, perhaps this will help you to understand (if you didn't already) why some people choose to defend the McCanns from accusations of immoral and illegal behaviour.
Of course I understand it, Alfred. You're only doing what the powerful did instinctively on Day 1 of the case.
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Where has the presence of cadaver scent been disproved ?
The presence of cadaver scent has to be proved
It hasn't been
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Which you, of course, have done.
So why don't you attempt to enlighten us denser mortals ferryman ?
I have countless times.
But some density is just too dense to penetrate.
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Nice find Mercury.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body." (MG)
Eddie's alerts to clothing do not distinguish between clothing which which was being worn when it made contact, and clothing which was not being worn when it made contact.
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When the fibre samples and branch samples were obtained in the garden, were any soil samples obtained?
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I have countless times.
But some density is just too dense to penetrate.
A but ferryman are these *real* errors or once you've simply made up for your own amusement ?
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A but ferryman are these *real* errors or once you've simply made up for your own amusement ?
Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with translated NPIA instructions on how to conduct canine searches in buildings and vehicles.
That was an implicit criticism of Grime's work.
Harrison dismissed both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.
That was another implicit criticism of Grime's work.
That there was no gap between completion of the, apparent, reconnoitre of the gym and the start of the inspection of clothing tends to suggest that the PJ cribbed from these translated instructions Harrison gave them.
Find a single reference in Harrison's three reports to clothing ....
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Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with translated NPIA instructions on how to conduct canine searches in buildings and vehicles.
That was an implicit criticism of Grime's work.
Harrison dismissed both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.
That was another implicit criticism of Grime's work.
That there was no gap between completion of the, apparent, reconnoitre of the gym and the start of the inspection of clothing tends to suggest that the PJ cribbed from these translated instructions Harrison gave them.
Find a single reference in Harrison's three reports to clothing ....
Yep that's what I thought !
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Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with translated NPIA instructions on how to conduct canine searches in buildings and vehicles.
That was an implicit criticism of Grime's work.
Harrison dismissed both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.
That was another implicit criticism of Grime's work.
That there was no gap between completion of the, apparent, reconnoitre of the gym and the start of the inspection of clothing tends to suggest that the PJ cribbed from these translated instructions Harrison gave them.
Find a single reference in Harrison's three reports to clothing ....
Hmm, that's just your spin on third party text. How about text from judiciary themselves? Is there any of that?
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Hmm, that's just your spin on third party text. How about text from judiciary themselves? Is there any of that?
The case never went to court.
And it isn't my "spin" at all.
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The case never went to court.
And it isn't my "spin" at all.
You're not quoting the judiciary. Find quotes from them. If you can.
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The case never went to court.
And it isn't my "spin" at all.
So can you quote from within the files where any official body criticises Grime's conduct during the searches ?
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So can you quote from within the files where any official body criticises Grime's conduct during the searches ?
Can you read?
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You're not quoting the judiciary. Find quotes from them. If you can.
Saying what?
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The case never went to court.
And it isn't my "spin" at all.
The case never went to court? We don't need it to have done. There was official judicial text published in 2008. The text that concluded 'we have reached no conclusions. Not one'. Can you find any criticism of MG's work in that official judicial documentation?
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The case never went to court? We don't need it to have done. There was official judicial text published in 2008. The text that concluded 'we have reached no conclusions. Not one'. Can you find any criticism of MG's work in that official judicial documentation?
Are you talking about the prosecutors' report?
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Saying what?
Not an hour ago you said you only ever stick to the official files. Since then you've offered your interpretation of the words of another British policeman, but you've offered no words critical of MG's work from the Portuguese judiciary themselves. Can you find any?
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Are you talking about the prosecutors' report?
%£&)**#
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Of course I understand it, Alfred. You're only doing what the powerful did instinctively on Day 1 of the case.
The powerful? Are you saying only the powerful support the McCanns? How bizarre.
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%£&)**#
The prosecutors confined themselves to emphasising that there was no evidence against the McCanns.
Why should they stray into areas outside their speciality?
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The presence of cadaver scent has to be proved
It hasn't been
It was neither proved or disproved by the forensics.
Surely you remember that.
Now if a body is found.......................
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The prosecutors confined themselves to emphasising that there was no evidence against the McCanns.
Why should they stray into areas outside their speciality?
Try once again giving the full quote, not your selected piece.
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It was neither proved or disproved by the forensics.
Surely you remember that.
Now if a body is found.......................
What you have forgotten (or are unable to grasp) is that there no need to disprove anything; only to prove stuff.
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The prosecutors confined themselves to emphasising that there was no evidence against the McCanns.
Why should they stray into areas outside their speciality?
Thanks for answering my question.
So if there's no criticism from the Portuguese judiciary, and you only ever stick to the official documentation, you actually have no evidence of any issue with MG's work. Correct?
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Try once again giving the full quote, not your selected piece.
What I have always quoted is the full quote.
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Give the full extract.
NOT JUST ONE SENTENCE.
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.
Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
Lots of sentences there. You just have to read them.
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Going back to that report that MG and Keela worked with some welsh EVRDs.
Could those welsh teams be from the same force that Mr Redwood deployed to Portugal?
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Getting back on-topic, here, again is confirmation that Eddie was not involved in the Meg Walsh investigation.
And from the article, it would seem Keela was being plugged as having gone to America to assist the FBI from before Madeleine's disappearance.
Four sniffer dogs brought to house for second search after body found
Barry Roche,
Southern Correspondent
Gardaí investigating the murder of Waterford woman Meg Walsh have carried out an examination of her home in the city using specialist sniffer dogs brought in from Britain to see if they could find any evidence of her being killed at her house.
Three sniffer dogs from Wales along with a specialist sniffer dog from Yorkshire searched the detached house at Ballinakill Downs where Ms Walsh lived with her husband, bus driver John O'Brien.
The house had been examined by Garda technical experts in the week following Ms Walsh's disappearance on October 1st but gardaí later handed back the house to Mr O'Brien.
However on Sunday, following the discovery of Ms Walsh's naked and badly beaten body in the River Suir, gardaí under Supt Dave Sheahan took possession of the house again and cordoned it off for further examination by the specialist dog units from Britain.
One of the dogs, Keela, an English springer spaniel belonging to the South Yorkshire Police, has been used by police forces all over the UK and by the FBI in the US to locate blood and other human fluids for evidential purposes.
According to a spokesman for South Yorkshire Police, Keela has been "specifically trained to detect minute human blood deposits" and can pinpoint deposits which are not detected by present forensic techniques.
Gardaí believe the dogs may be able to uncover any traces of blood or other human tissue belonging to Ms Walsh which could throw light on where exactly she was murdered in an attempt to move forward their investigation into her killing.
Supt Sheahan confirmed that gardaí are treating Ms Walsh's home as a crime scene and hope the search by the sniffer dogs will find some previously missed evidence.
He confirmed that the specialist dogs - who are accompanied by their handlers - will be available to gardaí for a number of days and they expect to use them at a number of locations around Waterford.
"We're also very anxious to locate where exactly Ms Walsh's body was dumped in the Suir and in that regard we will be using the sniffer dogs in searches along the river to try and locate where her killer disposed of her body."
Supt Sheahan also confirmed that gardaí are strongly of the belief that Ms Walsh's killer used her silver Mitsubishi Carisma car registration 01 W 2060 to transport and dispose of her body by dumping it in the river.
He said they had received a good response from the public to a reconstruction in which gardaí placed two similar Mitsubishi Carisma cars fitted with the same plates as Ms Walsh's car in two locations in Waterford city.
"The incident room was swamped with calls immediately after we carried out the reconstruction and we are currently working through those calls and assessing the information we received in the hope it will help us progress our inquiry," he said.
According to a senior Garda source, the movements of Ms Walsh's car following the last confirmed sighting at her home at 6am on October 1st and before it was found in the Uluru car park at 1.03am on October 4th are critical.
"A huge amount revolves around the movements of the car - if we can get information on that we believe we will make significant progress in bringing this investigation to a successful conclusion," said the source.
Meanwhile a rosary for Ms Walsh took place at Fermoy Hospital last night. Her body will be removed from the hospital tonight at 7pm to St Nicholas's church in her native Killavullen for requiem Mass at noon on Thursday.
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This pretty much confirms Eddie played no role in the investigation.
Although it was a murder investigation, the dogs were brought in after Meg Walsh's remains had been found, rendering a cadaver dog redundant ....
October 18, 2006 | Copyright
Permalink
Byline: By NIALL O'CONNOR
SPLATTERED blood stains have been found in the home of murdered mum Meg Walsh, it was revealed yesterday.
The house in Ballinakill Downs on the Dunmore East Road, Waterford, has now become the focus of the Garda investigation.
And yesterday detectives drafted in a specialist dog unit from Wales trained to find evidence.
The body of the 35-year-old Meg was recovered from the River Suir two days ago after a two-week search.
A postmortem established the mother of one had received severe injuries to her upper body and her head. Forensic teams are testing traces of carpet from the house following unconfirmed reports that Meg's naked body was wrapped in red burgundy carpet which may have come from the house which she shared with her husband John O'Brien. …
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Cite?
Bit of a mystery why dogs were called in for this case at all.
Blood was found in Meg Walsh's vehicle which vanished when she did ... her body had been found.
Her husband was found not guilty of her murder.
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The enquiry became a murder enquiry after Meg Walsh's remains were discovered, rendering a role for Eddie redundant.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/meg-walsh-family-appeals-to-her-killers-better-nature-at-inquest-77674.html
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The dogs were, indeed, drafted in after the discovery of Meg Walsh's body (recovered from a river).
So Eddie would have played no part:
Southern Correspondent
Gardaí investigating the murder of Waterford woman Meg Walsh have carried out an examination of her home in the city using specialist sniffer dogs brought in from Britain to see if they could find any evidence of her being killed at her house.
Three sniffer dogs from Wales along with a specialist sniffer dog from Yorkshire searched the detached house at Ballinakill Downs where Ms Walsh lived with her husband, bus driver John O'Brien.
The house had been examined by Garda technical experts in the week following Ms Walsh's disappearance on October 1st but gardaí later handed back the house to Mr O'Brien.
However on Sunday, following the discovery of Ms Walsh's naked and badly beaten body in the River Suir, gardaí under Supt Dave Sheahan took possession of the house again and cordoned it off for further examination by the specialist dog units from Britain.
One of the dogs, Keela, an English springer spaniel belonging to the South Yorkshire Police, has been used by police forces all over the UK and by the FBI in the US to locate blood and other human fluids for evidential purposes.
According to a spokesman for South Yorkshire Police, Keela has been "specifically trained to detect minute human blood deposits" and can pinpoint deposits which are not detected by present forensic techniques.
Gardaí believe the dogs may be able to uncover any traces of blood or other human tissue belonging to Ms Walsh which could throw light on where exactly she was murdered in an attempt to move forward their investigation into her killing.
Supt Sheahan confirmed that gardaí are treating Ms Walsh's home as a crime scene and hope the search by the sniffer dogs will find some previously missed evidence.
He confirmed that the specialist dogs - who are accompanied by their handlers - will be available to gardaí for a number of days and they expect to use them at a number of locations around Waterford.
"We're also very anxious to locate where exactly Ms Walsh's body was dumped in the Suir and in that regard we will be using the sniffer dogs in searches along the river to try and locate where her killer disposed of her body."
Supt Sheahan also confirmed that gardaí are strongly of the belief that Ms Walsh's killer used her silver Mitsubishi Carisma car registration 01 W 2060 to transport and dispose of her body by dumping it in the river.
He said they had received a good response from the public to a reconstruction in which gardaí placed two similar Mitsubishi Carisma cars fitted with the same plates as Ms Walsh's car in two locations in Waterford city.
"The incident room was swamped with calls immediately after we carried out the reconstruction and we are currently working through those calls and assessing the information we received in the hope it will help us progress our inquiry," he said.
According to a senior Garda source, the movements of Ms Walsh's car following the last confirmed sighting at her home at 6am on October 1st and before it was found in the Uluru car park at 1.03am on October 4th are critical.
"A huge amount revolves around the movements of the car - if we can get information on that we believe we will make significant progress in bringing this investigation to a successful conclusion," said the source.
Meanwhile a rosary for Ms Walsh took place at Fermoy Hospital last night. Her body will be removed from the hospital tonight at 7pm to St Nicholas's church in her native Killavullen for requiem Mass at noon on Thursday.
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So what is that referred to in technical terms if deployed after the main event and find nothing of interest?
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So what is that referred to in technical terms if deployed after the main event and find nothing of interest?
Intriguing question. Not sure what Keela might potentially have found in the home of help to the investigation ....
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In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
FBI takes closer look at missing girl's case
Experts scrutinize videotaped interviews for discrepancies
By Katie Howard and Sheila Burke
The Tennessean
5/2/06
FBI specialists skilled in evaluating body language were looking Monday for "discrepancies" in videotapes of everyone interviewed since last week's disappearance of 2-year-old Analyce Guerra.
The agency's Behavioral Science Unit is reviewing hundreds of taped interviews conducted by the Smyrna police, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and the FBI, as well as media interviews that friends and family have given since the girl was reported missing on April 24. The girl's family has appeared on local and national news shows to talk about the case.
"There are some discrepancies in some of the interviews," Smyrna police Sgt. Ken Hampton said. "We have to go back and reinterview some people."
Hunt for girl turns to Stewarts Creek
By Mealand Ragland-Hudgins
The Daily News Journal
7/21/06
SMYRNA — Police looking into the disappearance of 2-year-old Analyce Guerra hope to dam part of Stewarts Creek to look for her, the lead investigator confirmed.
Part of the creek runs near Meadow Wood Apartments, where the toddler was last seen April 23. Smyrna detective Jeff Peach said it makes sense to look there again.
"We've got a body of water nearby that a child can walk to. We're working with the city engineers and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who actually has jurisdiction over the water … to get the approval to do so," Peach said Wednesday.
Peach is not sure when the search may take place. Parts of the creek in investigators' 2.5-mile search grid, as well as areas suggested by several search experts — some as far away as England — would be checked, he said. Police dragged the creek's bottom two days after Analyce was reported missing.
Bill Peoples, spokesman for the Corps, said he wasn't aware of the police plans but wasn't sure if damming the creek was possible.
"Creeks are much shallower than lakes. Law enforcement have sonar they can use" to search under water. "If they got a hit on something that looked like a body, they could just have divers go in and search," he said.
Police ID remains as Smyrna toddler; trauma 'obvious'
Mealnd Ragland-Hudgins
The Daily News Journal
March 6, 2008
SMYRNA — A two-year search for a missing toddler is now a homicide investigation.
Through DNA testing, the state medical examiner’s office confirmed today that the skeletal remains found in January at Stones River National Battlefield belong to Analyce Guerra, who was 2 when she was reported missing from her family’s apartment.
Signs of foul play were “obvious,” said Detective Jeff Peach, who has worked the case from the beginning. “There is trauma, but that’s all we’re going to say at this time because it is an ongoing investigation.”
Peach broke the news to the family at the police department this evening, and described family members as being “distraught” and “crying.” Eva Guerra, Analyce’s mother, could not be reached for comment Thursday night.
Walkers discovered a human skull Jan. 4 near a Civil War memorial at the battlefield off Old Nashville Highway in Murfreesboro, about five miles south of Smyrna.
Peach said nearly a full skeleton was recovered.
Analyce’s remains had been at the battlefield since the time of her death, likely the day of or shortly after she vanished from her family’s home at Meadow Wood Apartments April 23, 2006, he said.
“I can’t think of a motive why anyone would want to hurt a child this age. I think everyone, including myself, hoped for the best,” Peach said.
Thousands of hours had been spent on the case, the detective said.
New Lead In Cold Case Of Analyce Guerra
CREATED Jan 7, 2014
by Nick Beres
SMYRNA, Tenn. - A very cold case is warming up. Smyrna detectives are now pursuing a hot new lead in the mysterious murder of two-year-old Analyce Guerra.
The high-profile case made headlines back in 2006 when she first disappeared from her family's Smyrna apartment. Her family, friends and police searched for two years never giving up hope she might be found alive.
In January, 2008, Analyce's remains were found on a Civil War battlefield in Rutherford County. Detectives determined she was murdered.
"This one has special meaning to me," said Police Chief Kevin Arnold.
He works all cold cases equally hard, but said this one involving a child really hurt.
"This is a baby. This is a two-year-old child that someone took, damaged and then dumped as though she was a sack of garbage," said Arnold.
Analyce's family has since moved out of the area, but police have never given up on the case.
"There's a development in this case that we feel we might be able to track down," said Arnold.
He has already sent part of the case file to the district attorney for review. But more information is needed before an indictment can be sought against the unidentified suspect.
"I don't want to tip my hand too much," said Arnold, who declined to go into specifics.
But, he said he has now assigned two new detectives to the cold case.
"Just a fresh set of eyes," said Arnold.
He hopes they can pick up where the others left off, build on the new lead, and finally bring whoever killed Analyce to justice.
The detectives plan to re-interview the 64 people who were originally interviewed when the child first disappeared. Their hope is the new lead in the case will give them a new line of questioning.
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In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
FBI takes closer look at missing girl's case
Experts scrutinize videotaped interviews for discrepancies
By Katie Howard and Sheila Burke
The Tennessean
5/2/06
The date underlined would be either (UK) May 2nd or (US) 5th February
So a report of events in June this year would be written before the event occurred.
Why is that?
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PF good find!
FM, I posted a story I found ths morning to answer the thread question. It seems not only are you implying that it is false (and the article you posted regarding the Welsh dogs was correct instead, (and how you would know I have no idea, but know why you would like it to be) but have also ignored some answers to some of your (and others) questions, and also statements! contained in this article.
Look at the boldened parts, hope this helps. NB also it contains "direct quotes"
As for the discrepancy between June/July 2006 in two different articles, on the USA story,hardly a deal breaker (not every syllable journals type are sent in a Moses type of stone) and the article posted by PF refers to search experts from England, unless you think it was not Grime that the Belfast Telegraph article referred to.....
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
By Brendan McDaid
PUBLISHED
06/12/2006
*
The sniffer dog that helped detectives nail Attracta Harron's killer has assisted gardai probing the horrific killing of Cork woman Meg Walsh, it has emerged.-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Ms Walsh's disappearance sparked the largest man-hunt ever mounted in the Republic's south east after members of the public joined detectives and garda in their search when the mother-of-one failed to show up for her work on October 2.
Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie, who has also been involved in searches for 15-year-old Arlene Arkinson, to the Republic.
Eddie helped police put evil killer Trevor Hamilton behind bars earlier this year after the victim recovery dog found 63-year-old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie also found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs' trip to the US occurred shortly after Eddie returned to Ulster earlier this year for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
The Tyrone teenager went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13, 1994.
Mr Grime said today: "We are now waiting to here about the Arlene Arkinson case. A review on that is due shortly. We don't give up."
A garda spokeswoman said today that investigations into the death of Ms Walsh were ongoing
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In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
FBI takes closer look at missing girl's case
Experts scrutinize videotaped interviews for discrepancies
By Katie Howard and Sheila Burke
The Tennessean
5/2/06
The date underlined would be either (UK) May 2nd or (US) 5th February
So a report of events in June this year would be written before the event occurred.
Why is that?
2 May 2006.
Analyce Guerra disappeared from her home during the early morning hours of April 23, 2006.
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Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie,
Why would you bring in a cadaver dog after finding a body?
Finding bodies is what cadaver dogs do.
Thereafter, you bring in the so-called crime scene investigation dog.
(A dog like Keela) ....
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2 May 2006.
Analyce Guerra disappeared from her home during the early morning hours of April 23, 2006.
What?
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Attracta sniffer dog joins hunt for new killer
30 October 2006
Belfast Telegraph
Brendan McDaid
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs searched in June 2006.
Hunt for girl turns to Stewarts Creek - 21 July 2006
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Topic, Please.
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Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie,
Why would you bring in a cadaver dog after finding a body?
Finding bodies is what cadaver dogs do.
Thereafter, you bring in the so-called crime scene investigation dog.
(A dog like Keela) ....
So three dogs from Wales (like keela) plus keela were brought in but not Eddie? In the Meg Walsh case in 2006?
Answer to your question is in my post on previous page #388 plus answered twice by Lyall, both posts seem to have vanished.
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So three dogs from Wales (like keela) plus keela were brought in but not Eddie? In the Meg Walsh case in 2006?
Answer to your question is in my post on previous page #388 plus answered twice by Lyall, both posts seem to have vanished.
The only dogs from Wales I know are SAM dogs.
They track scents of living people, not dead ....
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The only dogs from Wales I know are SAM dogs.
They track scents of living people, not dead ....
And the reason they would bring in dogs to look for a living person after they had been found dead, is?
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And the reason they would bring in dogs to look for a living person after they had been found dead, is?
A question for someone else to answer ...
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A question for someone else to answer ...
Oh
So what is it going to take to put this thread to bed? Will nothing except a FOI request not do it?
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And the reason they would bring in dogs to look for a living person after they had been found dead, is?
I've no idea.
But the only sniffer dogs from Wales I am aware of are these:
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/175067-sniffer-dogs-brought-in-to-missing-michaela-search/
They search for the scents of living humans.
Unless you are aware of any others (from Wales) ....
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Following the discovery of Ms Walsh's body, police in South Yorkshire were asked to bring Keela and Eddie,
Why would you bring in a cadaver dog after finding a body?
Finding bodies is what cadaver dogs do.
Thereafter, you bring in the so-called crime scene investigation dog.
(A dog like Keela) ....
Eddie was brought in after the body was found to find any further evidence of death in other places such as her home to find out where she was murdered. Suspects clothes tested etc.
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
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Eddie brought in 6 weeks after a body was found on 15 October?
Don't believe a word ...
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The only dogs from Wales I know are SAM dogs.
They track scents of living people, not dead ....
Two EVRDS which are based in Wales, are owned by a Welsh police force, and understand Welsh commands: Tito + Muzzy. They have been to PDL.
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So three dogs from Wales (like keela) plus keela were brought in but not Eddie? In the Meg Walsh case in 2006?
Answer to your question is in my post on previous page #388 plus answered twice by Lyall, both posts seem to have vanished.
IMO 3 EVRDs from Wales, plus Keela. (edited)
IMO the four dogs are Keela, Eddie, and two person-specific dogs from wales
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Eddie brought in 6 weeks after a body was found on 15 October?
Don't believe a word ...
To search for locations the body had been placed in before the finall location, to build case against perp
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Eddie was brought in after the body was found to find any further evidence of death in other places such as her home to find out where she was murdered. Suspects clothes tested etc.
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie from South Yorkshire Police and his female companion Keela have formed part of a specialist dog team hunting for clues after the 35-year-old's badly decomposed body was found floating in Waterford Quays on October 15.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
Stuff and bloody nonsense.
You don't use cadaver dogs like that.
No one does
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Stuff and bloody nonsense.
You don't use cadaver dogs like that.
No one does
Have you read the article ?
Is your judgement based on your professional experience in this field of forensic dog use ? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Stuff and bloody nonsense.
You don't use cadaver dogs like that.
No one does
They've got the body but they have to find the killer so the dogs are used to find further clues/evidence. Suspects clothes will be examined by the dogs and other places, vehicles etc. They have to connect the death/murder to the perp(s) so the dogs are used.
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They've got the body but they have to find the killer so the dogs are used to find further clues/evidence. Suspects clothes will be examined by the dogs and other places, vehicles etc. They have to connect the death/murder to the perp(s) so the dogs are used.
They had the body, they had the blood, they had a suspect but presumably they didn't get a woof.
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They've got the body but they have to find the killer so the dogs are used to find further clues/evidence. Suspects clothes will be examined by the dogs and other places, vehicles etc. They have to connect the death/murder to the perp(s) so the dogs are used.
If you have the body, you have the DNA comparisons, so the next task is to link DNA to a suspect/the victim.
A cadaver dog won't help you with that ...
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If you have the body, you have the DNA comparisons, so the next task is to link DNA to a suspect/the victim.
A cadaver dog won't help you with that ...
If you have the body and DNA comparisons why the need for the Irish police to request to bring in three dogs from Wales and Keela according to one report or Eddie and Keela according to another report then
?
And you still haven't given your reasons why the Belfast telegraph is wrong stating that Eddie and Keela did go to Waterford to investigate the murder of Meg Walsh further
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"The four dogs ... include two from South Yorkshire Police and one of those is the only one in the world trained to detect human blood ... the other is a victim recovery dog and helps us find human remains. The other two dogs are specially trained to follow a specific scent, an individual scent,"
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-dog-team-used-to-help-gardai-sniff-out-clues-26360760.html
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Thanks for that another great find Pegasus....I believe we have enough evidence now, to state that the answer to the OP is a probably/definitely yes...unless FM can provide credible or concrete evidence that this is not true, and that does not include their own thnking, just facts should do it
Not that it really bothers me as I'm not trying to make a case of convince anyone of anything whist going against all normal indications unlike the OP and the veiled assertion in the title that no, they never really did work together before 2007 and somehow this non fact making their work in PDL defunct or because of some other strange reason, oh well
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Thanks for that another great find Pegasus....I believe we have enough evidence now, to state that the answer to the OP is a probably/definitely yes...unless FM can provide credible or concrete evidence that this is not true, and that does not include their own thnking, just facts should do it
Not that it really bothers me as I'm not trying to make a case of convince anyone of anything whist going against all normal indications unlike the OP and the veiled assertion in the title that no, they never really did work together before 2007 and somehow this non fact making their work in PDL defunct or because of some other strange reason, oh well
Here is that illusive 'missing' part of the FOI I promised; actually, the whole question:
I would like to request the following under the FOI Act:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
2. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
3. What does the South Yorkshire constabulary charge for Eddie the sniffer dog’s services?
4. Please could you provide a breakdown of the fees and expenses charged for each case Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog has been deployed in outside the South Yorkshire area in the last three years?
5. To whom is money made payable for the services of Eddie the sniffer dog?
6. Who owns Eddie the sniffer dog?
7. What training did Eddie receive to assist him in his duties?
Exemptions Applied:
None
SYP Response:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?
Eddie, the specialist dog is no longer with South Yorkshire Police. He and his handler left the Force in August 2007. The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.
Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:
As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
2. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.
All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces.
Two deployments for Ellis/Frankie were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remaining three were to external forces.
3. What does the South Yorkshire constabulary charge for Eddie the sniffer dog’s services?
The daily charges for the deployment of Eddie were £700 per day Monday to Friday and £900 per day for weekly leave days and bank holidays. These charges have not changed over the last five years and are still applicable to date.
4. Please could you provide a breakdown of the fees and expenses charged for each case Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog has been deployed in outside the South Yorkshire area in the last three years?
The breakdown for the fees and expenses charged for the deployment of Eddie the Springer Spaniel Victim Search Dog outside the force area are calculated as follows:
The figures are based on 2006-2007 costing:
Salary cost Police Constable: £41,900, 8 hour productive day £192.20
Deployment based on 16 hour day Mon to Friday more than 7 days notice
Cost for 8 hour working day
Cost for 8 hours overtime
NI on above
Cost dog for the day £10.52
Use of vehicle based on 300 miles
5% Admin fee
The total amounts to £837 but SYP would charge £700
Deployment based on 16 hour day Saturday or Sunday including Bank Holidays or less 7 days notice
Cost for 16 hours at double time
NI on above
Cost dog for the day £10.52
Use of vehicle based on 300 miles
5% Admin fee
The total amounts to £1035.50 but SYP would charge £900
5. To whom is money made payable for the services of Eddie the sniffer dog?
All monies received for the deployment of Eddie during his time with South Yorkshire Police were paid to South Yorkshire Police.
6. Who owns Eddie the sniffer dog?
Ownership of Eddie was transferred from South Yorkshire Police to his handler Martin Grime when he retired from the Force in 2007.
7. What training did Eddie receive to assist him in his duties?
When Eddie was with South Yorkshire Police he received training in line with the ACPO dog committee standards for specialist dog training. The training was and in relation to current dogs is 18 days per annum.
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/dog_training_manual.doc
FOI Category:
That answer states Eddie working, alone with Grime or with another dog Frankie and another handler, Ellis.
I'm pretty sure Grime says, in his profile, that Keela was aged 3 in 2007.
So she would have been born in 2004.
Hence we can be pretty confident that Eddie and Keela never worked together.
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So you sent a FOI request about Eddie and from the replies "about Eddie" you conclude he never worked with Keela?
How does that kind of logic work??
And why are you totally blanking the newspaper reports which state they did work together in cases before 2007
Try and keep it simple because convoluted hasn't helped your arguments much to date
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So you sent a FOI request about Eddie and from the replies "about Eddie" you conclude he never worked with Keela?
How does that kind of logic work??
And why are you totally blanking the newspaper reports which state they did work together in cases before 2007
Try and keep it simple because convoluted hasn't helped your arguments much to date
Does the newspaper report actually name Eddie?
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Does the newspaper report actually name Eddie?
Named both Eddie and keela on same two cases
Read from page 21 here
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So you sent a FOI request about Eddie and from the replies "about Eddie" you conclude he never worked with Keela?
How does that kind of logic work??
And why are you totally blanking the newspaper reports which state they did work together in cases before 2007
Try and keep it simple because convoluted hasn't helped your arguments much to date
Wasn't my question, but that's by-the-bye.
Still the question, indeed, asks alone about Eddie.
Why then, in answering, is there a refrence to Eddie working alone, Eddie working with another dog (Frankie) and another handler, but NO reference to Keela (if, indeed, Keela and Eddie worked together before PdL)?
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Wasn't my question, but that's by-the-bye.
Still the question, indeed, asks alone about Eddie.
Why then, in answering, is there a refrence to Eddie working alone, Eddie working with another dog (Frankie) and another handler, but NO reference to Keela (if, indeed, Keela and Eddie worked together before PdL)?
Who knows, perhaps they thought you were asking about vrds, perhaps because you didn't ask, perhaps because keela was new despite having been used a few times together, people are not robots or computers, perhaps send them another request and seal it
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Here is the reference for the FOI question and answer I submitted:
Freedom of Information request 20090062 can be found on our disclosure log via the following link
http://www.southyorkshire.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/sniffer-dog-deployments-costs
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Here is the reference for the FOI question and answer I submitted:
Freedom of Information request 20090062 can be found on our disclosure log via the following link
http://www.southyorkshire.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/sniffer-dog-deployments-costs
Not sure why you are posting that, it's been quoted and referenced in full enough times by you and others...it says nothng about Keela, other publications do, so the answer to your Op remains a big YES unless you can disprove it, which you can't, so I'd save my energy
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Not sure why you are posting that, it's been quoted and referenced in full enough times by you and others...it says nothng about Keela, other publications do, so the answer to your Op remains a big YES unless you can disprove it, which you can't, so I'd save my energy
Because it gives Eddie's full career history and says nothing about Keela.
If Eddie had worked with Keela there would be reference to Eddie working alone, Eddie working with Frankie and Eddie working with Keela.
There is no reference to Keela.
Hence it is for others to explain where these, apparent, articles making reference to Eddie and Keela working together came from ....
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Because it gives Eddie's full career history and says nothing about Keela.
If Eddie had worked with Keela there would be reference to Eddie working alone, Eddie working with Frankie and Eddie working with Keela.
There is no reference to Keela.
Hence it is for others to explain where these, apparent, articles making reference to Eddie and Keela working together came from ....
Eddie and Frankie did the same job so worked together at the same time. Keela was a human blood only dog. MG brought both dogs over to the FBI body farm and they passed all tests with flying colours. Blood tests for Keela.
The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement speciality of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.
Keela worked on the attempted murder of young mum Abigail Witchells in Surrey in 2005, and has even been to America to demonstrate her skills to the FBI.
When Keela was working on the Abigail Witchalls case she found eight piece of blood-stained clothing in just one day.
A dog diary about Keela on the South Yorkshire Police website when she was six months old says she and Eddie live "with my dad" at home in Bawtry, Doncaster.
It reads: "He is going to train me to search for very small spots of blood at crime scenes, so small that the humans can't see it.
"My very sensitive nose will be able to smell the blood and I will show Dad where it is. He can then show the scientists so that they can take samples."
http://www.thestar.co.uk/features/south-yorks-sniffer-dogs-in-maddie-hunt-1-360107
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24 April 2004
Yorkshire Post
Kate O'Hara
And PCs Martin Grime and John Ellis and their dogs, Eddie and Frankie, have already recorded a success in the first of their grisly investigations. Last week they found the body of pensioner Attracta Harron in Ulster. A 21-year-old student had been charged with her murder, but detectives had failed to find her body until the Yorkshire team joined the search.
The South Yorkshire officers and their dogs have also been called in to help with the hunt for the body of Arlene Arkinson, who disappeared nearly a decade ago, aged 15, on her way home to Co Tyrone, from a disco.
Robert Howard: Child killer and rapist dies in prison custody
4 October 2015
The convicted child killer and rapist Robert Howard has died in prison custody at a hospital in England.
The 71-year-old Irish native was serving a life sentence for raping and killing 14-year-old Hanna Williams from London, whose body was found in 2002.
He was also a suspect in the murder of the County Tyrone teenager Arlene Arkinson who went missing after going to a disco in County Donegal in 1994.
He was charged with murdering the 15-year-old but was acquitted in 2005.
The jury was not told that Howard had a history of sexual violence and by then he was already serving a life term for killing and raping Hanna Williams.
Arlene, a schoolgirl from Castlederg, was last seen alive in a car driven by Howard.
She has been missing, presumed dead, for 21 years. A number of searches have been carried out at various locations, but her body has never been found.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34438413
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Eddie and Frankie did the same job so worked together at the same time. Keela was a human blood only dog. MG brought both dogs over to the FBI body farm and they passed all tests with flying colours. Blood tests for Keela.
The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement speciality of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.
Keela worked on the attempted murder of young mum Abigail Witchells in Surrey in 2005, and has even been to America to demonstrate her skills to the FBI.
When Keela was working on the Abigail Witchalls case she found eight piece of blood-stained clothing in just one day.
A dog diary about Keela on the South Yorkshire Police website when she was six months old says she and Eddie live "with my dad" at home in Bawtry, Doncaster.
It reads: "He is going to train me to search for very small spots of blood at crime scenes, so small that the humans can't see it.
"My very sensitive nose will be able to smell the blood and I will show Dad where it is. He can then show the scientists so that they can take samples."
http://www.thestar.co.uk/features/south-yorks-sniffer-dogs-in-maddie-hunt-1-360107
The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.
The foi answer itemising 37 deployments for Eddie in that period, some working with Frankie and Ellis, some working alone with Grime.
Keela (Grime tells us) was aged 3 in 2007, so would have been born in 2004. She wouldn't have been on-stream as a working dog until (probably) some point in 2005.
The answer above gives the full breakdown of Eddie's (SYP) career, referencing cases working alone with Grime AND cases working with Frankie and Ellis.
None with Keela.
Why is that?
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Why would SYP, for the first time, have deployed Eddie and Keela together in PdL?
Why not?
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Why not?
Have we, at least, reached agreement that Eddie and Keela were not deployed together before PdL?
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Have we, at least, reached agreement that Eddie and Keela were not deployed together before PdL?
I neither know nor care, actually. I just wondered why it matters.
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I've had a quick look and it seems Mark Harrison recommended the use of a team consisting of an EVRD and a CSI dog. Perhaps he was mindful of cost, as he only seems to have recommended using one handler;
The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
Currently only costs for the EVRD and CSI are available.
The daily rate for this dog team is 1000 Euros. Flight travel costs for handler and dogs could be 2750 Euros. Veterinary costs: U.K. and Portugal to comply with Pet Passports scheme 450 Euros. Accommodation, subsistence and vehicle transportation would incur extra charge.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
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I've had a quick look and it seems Mark Harrison recommended the use of a team consisting of an EVRD and a CSI dog. Perhaps he was mindful of cost, as he only seems to have recommended using one handler;
The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
Currently only costs for the EVRD and CSI are available.
The daily rate for this dog team is 1000 Euros. Flight travel costs for handler and dogs could be 2750 Euros. Veterinary costs: U.K. and Portugal to comply with Pet Passports scheme 450 Euros. Accommodation, subsistence and vehicle transportation would incur extra charge.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
According to one of the articles on here, the CSI dog (Keela) was used in the Ian Huntley investigation (about 2 years before she was born).
Clever, that ....
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Have we, at least, reached agreement that Eddie and Keela were not deployed together before PdL?
No you are wrong.
Martin Grime, who handles both Eddie and Keela, said today: "Obviously the body had been found already, so we went into investigative mode and the dogs were brought to Waterford and Dublin.
"Eddie would be tasked to tell us where the body had been before it was found and would indicate any clothing that would have come into contact with the body.
"Keela was there to find any blood traces.
"We cannot comment on whether the dogs found anything as the investigation is still ongoing."
In June this year, both dogs were taken to an unspecified location in the USA to help locate a two-year-old girl who has disappeared from her home.
Eddie led detectives to a creek beside an American Civil War graveyard which was subsequently drained.
Investigations in this case are also ongoing.
The dogs' trip to the US occurred shortly after Eddie returned to Ulster earlier this year for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
The Tyrone teenager went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13, 1994.
Mr Grime said today: "We are now waiting to here about the Arlene Arkinson case. A review on that is due shortly. We don't give up."
A garda spokeswoman said today that investigations into the death of Ms Walsh were ongoing.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html
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According to one of the articles on here, the CSI dog (Keela) was used in the Ian Huntley investigation (about 2 years before she was born).
Clever, that ....
I don't think anyone has said Keela was used in that case and I have scanned this thread, did I miss it? If so, can you point out which article it was?
As for your continuing to insist that E & K never worked together before summer 2007, (whilst not stating why ths matters even if they hadn't) even when presented with more than one piece of evidence that they did, what can I say ?
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I don't think anyone has said Keela was used in that case and I have scanned this thread, did I miss it? If so, can you point out which article it was?
As for your continuing to insist that E & K never worked together before summer 2007, (whilst not stating why ths matters even if they hadn't) even when presented with more than one piece of evidence that they did, what can I say ?
The dogs were brought to Waterford to help gardai with their probe into the murder of Meg Walsh (35) on October 1. The animals recently helped the FBI track down a multiple murderer in Nashville, Tennessee.
The four dogs include the spaniel, Keela, the only known animal in the world capable of detecting and following a human blood-scent.
British police inspector Mark Harrison, of the National Centre for Police Excellence (NCPE), said the hounds had been used in the hunt for the murderer of Holly Wells (10) and Jessica Chapman (10) in Soham, Cambridgeshire, in August 2002.
The dogs ultimately helped bring 29-year-old school caretaker Ian Huntley to justice.
"The dogs that we have here include two from South Yorkshire Police and one of those is the only one in the world trained to detect human blood," said Insp Harrison. "The other is a victim recovery dog and helps us find human remains."
"The other two dogs are specially trained to follow a specific scent, an individual scent," he added.
Mr Harrison said that the dog unit was deployed in Waterford after gardai there had asked for "special assistance" in relation to the case of Margaret Walsh.
The British dog teams were yesterday working on multiple sites around Waterford, including Ms Walsh's Ballinakill home. "These dogs assist us in what we call investigative intelligence - they help us to piece together the jigsaw of the sequence of events that may have happened in this case," said Inspector Harris.
"In addition to that they look for hard and physical evidence. By way of example, the human blood dog can detect blood that is not visible to the human eye."
Insp Harrison added that the team were pleased with their work to date in Waterford. "We have detected quite a few things of interest of intelligence and we will continue to do that," he said. "The picture at the moment is quite incomplete and we will be working with the Garda detectives in hopefully completing the sequence of events."
The skilled team have also helped deliver crucial breakthroughs in previous cases such as the horrific murder of Attracta Harron in Northern Ireland.
It is expected the British dog team will conclude their work on the Meg Walsh case today but they will be available for longer.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-dog-team-used-to-help-gardai-sniff-out-clues-26360760.html
Eddie was 7 in 2007 so he might have been on-stream in 2002.
But Keela was 3 in 2007 and wouldn't even have been a twinkle in her mother's eye in 2002 ....
Either way, I'm not sure sniffer dogs were used in the Soham enquiry, because the girls' bodies were found without the aid of dogs (I think, but I would need to check)
Edited to replace correct link
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http://www.irishtimes.com/news/key-question-is-who-killed-meg-walsh-1.922528
Eddie was 7 in 2007 so he might have been on-stream in 2002.
But Keela was 3 in 2007 and wouldn't even have been a twinkle in her mother's eye in 2002 ....
Either way, I'm not sure sniffer dogs were used in the Soham enquiry, because the girls' bodies were found without the aid of dogs (I think, but I would need to check)
Why are you denying that Eddie and Keela worked together before PDL ?
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http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-dog-team-used-to-help-gardai-sniff-out-clues-26360760.html
Eddie was 7 in 2007 so he might have been on-stream in 2002.
But Keela was 3 in 2007 and wouldn't even have been a twinkle in her mother's eye in 2002 ....
Either way, I'm not sure sniffer dogs were used in the Soham enquiry, because the girls' bodies were found without the aid of dogs (I think, but I would need to check)
Edited to replace correct link
If Mark Harrison said they worked on the Soham murders then they did. Unbelievable.
31 December 2005
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, can sniff out the smallest samples of human blood - even after items have been cleaned or washed many times.
The South Yorkshire Police dog has already helped forces across the country, including working on the high-profile stabbing of Abigail Witchalls in Surrey, and is hired out at £530 per day, plus expenses.
If she worked every day of the year, she would earn almost £200,000 -around £70,000 more than her force's Chief Constable. Now forces worldwide have expressed interest in her specialist training and Keela will be travelling to America in the New Year to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.
A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then £200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.
Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year. Then the eight-week-old puppy became the centre of an experiment to see whether she could be trained to work as part of the team.
Unlike ordinary police dogs, Keela has never taken part in the usual six-week training course but has been trained, bit by bit, by PC Grime every day.
http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2005/12/pooch-is-top-dog-for-police-salaries.html
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Foursnifferdogs brought to housefor second searchafter bodyfound
Barry Roche,
Southern Correspondent
Gardaí investigating the murder of Waterford woman Meg Walsh have carried out an examination of her home in the city using specialist sniffer dogs brought in from Britain to see if they could find any evidence of her being killed at her house.
Three sniffer dogs from Wales along with a specialist sniffer dog from Yorkshire searched the detached house at Ballinakill Downs where Ms Walsh lived with her husband, bus driver John O'Brien.
The house had been examined by Garda technical experts in the week following Ms Walsh's disappearance on October 1st but gardaí later handed back the house to Mr O'Brien.
However on Sunday, following the discovery of Ms Walsh's naked and badly beaten body in the River Suir, gardaí under Supt Dave Sheahan took possession of the house again and cordoned it off for further examination by the specialist dog units from Britain.
One of the dogs, Keela, an English springer spaniel belonging to the South Yorkshire Police, has been used by police forces all over the UK and by the FBI in the US to locate blood and other human fluids for evidential purposes.
According to a spokesman for South Yorkshire Police, Keela has been "specifically trained to detect minute human blood deposits" and can pinpoint deposits which are not detected by present forensic techniques.
Gardaí believe the dogs may be able to uncover any traces of blood or other human tissue belonging to Ms Walsh which could throw light on where exactly she was murdered in an attempt to move forward their investigation into her killing.
Supt Sheahan confirmed that gardaí are treating Ms Walsh's home as a crime scene and hope the search by the sniffer dogs will find some previously missed evidence.
He confirmed that the specialist dogs - who are accompanied by their handlers - will be available to gardaí for a number of days and they expect to use them at a number of locations around Waterford.
"We're also very anxious to locate where exactly Ms Walsh's body was dumped in the Suir and in that regard we will be using the sniffer dogs in searches along the river to try and locate where her killer disposed of her body."
Supt Sheahan also confirmed that gardaí are strongly of the belief that Ms Walsh's killer used her silver Mitsubishi Carisma car registration 01 W 2060 to transport and dispose of her body by dumping it in the river.
He said they had received a good response from the public to a reconstruction in which gardaí placed two similar Mitsubishi Carisma cars fitted with the same plates as Ms Walsh's car in two locations in Waterford city.
"The incident room was swamped with calls immediately after we carried out the reconstruction and we are currently working through those calls and assessing the information we received in the hope it will help us progress our inquiry," he said.
According to a senior Garda source, the movements of Ms Walsh's car following the last confirmed sighting at her home at 6am on October 1st and before it was found in the Uluru car park at 1.03am on October 4th are critical.
"A huge amount revolves around the movements of the car - if we can get information on that we believe we will make significant progress in bringing this investigation to a successful conclusion," said the source.
Meanwhile a rosary for Ms Walsh took place at Fermoy Hospital last night. Her body will be removed from the hospital tonight at 7pm to St Nicholas's church in her native Killavullen for requiem Mass at noon on Thursday.
So, three sniffer-dogs from Wales and one sniffer dog from Yorkshire ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/uk-police-dogs-used-to-search-home-of-meg-walsh-1.1016878
The other point is that Ms Walsh's body was recovered from a river.
However on Sunday, following the discovery of Ms Walsh's naked and badly beaten body in the River Suir, gardaí under Supt Dave Sheahan took possession of the house again and cordoned it off for further examination by the specialist dog units from Britain.
Not found (in a river!) by Eddie, I wouldn't suggest.
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The dogs arrived after the body was found. MG trained his dogs every day. They spend their whole life doing their job and doing it right. That's why they were used by the FBI and 12 million + is going to tell you how good they were.
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http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-dog-team-used-to-help-gardai-sniff-out-clues-26360760.html
Eddie was 7 in 2007 so he might have been on-stream in 2002.
But Keela was 3 in 2007 and wouldn't even have been a twinkle in her mother's eye in 2002 ....
Either way, I'm not sure sniffer dogs were used in the Soham enquiry, because the girls' bodies were found without the aid of dogs (I think, but I would need to check)
Edited to replace correct link
Mark Harrison said "the hounds were used" in the Soham case....it doesn't specify which ones, newspaper articles or rather parts of sentences in them are not akin to the Moses tablets, so you can't really use that
Secondly you have no idea do you? if a bunch of dogs were used in the Meg Walsh case and then followed by another set, IE Eddie and Keela as stated in two other articles.....
And I still don't know what your problem is here
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Mark Harrison said "the hounds were used" in the Soham case....it doesn't specify which ones, newspaper articles or rather parts of sentences in them are not akin to the Moses tablets, so you can't really use that
Secondly you have no idea do you? if a bunch of dogs were used in the Meg Walsh case and then followed by another set, IE Eddie and Keela as stated in two other articles.....
And I still don't know what your problem is here
Fair comment.
And in response to the part I underline, academic interest, really.
I'm not aware Grime said anything one way or the other about whether they had been previously been used together ....
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Fair comment.
And in response to the part I underline, academic interest, really.
I'm not aware Grime said anything one way or the other about whether they had been previously been used together ....
Academic interest? Ok, if you say so.
The Belfast Telegraph article has been posted umpteen times now, your answer is in the first four paragraphs.