UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: APRIL on October 15, 2015, 03:40:27 PM
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Allegedly, it was Neville's habit to walk the dog, shower and get ready for bed downstairs, enjoying a G&T and a cigarette in the sitting room before going up to bed. As his slippers were found under the bed in the room where Sheila had been staying, it's possible that she -for whatever reason- was sleeping in her parent's room with Neville camping in her room.
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Allegedly, it was Neville's habit to walk the dog, shower and get ready for bed downstairs, enjoying a G&T and a cigarette in the sitting room before going up to bed. As his slippers were found under the bed in the room where Sheila had been staying, it's possible that she -for whatever reason- was sleeping in her parent's room with Neville camping in her room.
Could be he used that bedroom regularly, many married couples have separate bedrooms for all sorts of reasons. An interesting point though, could be that Sheila was in the master bedroom chatting with her mother while Neville was having a smoke downstairs??
Is there anything which disproves the theory that Neville encountered the assailant while downstairs and was marched at the point of a rifle up the stairs to the master bedroom where the two women were?
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Could be he used that bedroom regularly, many married couples have separate bedrooms for all sorts of reasons. An interesting point though, could be that Sheila was in the master bedroom chatting with her mother while Neville was having a smoke downstairs??
Is there anything which disproves the theory that Neville encountered the assailant while downstairs and was marched at the point of a rifle up the stairs to the master bedroom where the two women were?
The only thing I can think of is that Neville would have been the greatest threat so why not dispatch him first? The later the massacre happened the greater chance of him being in bed...............but WHICH bed? It may have been a part which didn't go to plan.
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Allegedly, it was Neville's habit to walk the dog, shower and get ready for bed downstairs, enjoying a G&T and a cigarette in the sitting room before going up to bed. As his slippers were found under the bed in the room where Sheila had been staying, it's possible that she -for whatever reason- was sleeping in her parent's room with Neville camping in her room.
If those are Nevill's slippers to the left, then they're at the side of the wrong bed if he slept in Sheila's room. Wouldn't they be nearer to the right-hand bed?
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Are those a farmer's day clothes and underwear sitting on the chair in the main bedroom? If so then it puts paid to the theory that he undressed downstairs. Those blue socks on the floor next to Sheila were thought to be Nevill's too.
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If those are Nevill's slippers to the left, then they're at the side of the wrong bed if he slept in Sheila's room. Wouldn't they be nearer to the right-hand bed?
Possibly, Myster, but I don't suffer with that particular form of OCD -and by the way they're not QUITE in alignment, Neville didn't either. It would indeed have been difficult for him to have slept in that bed as it was covered in Sheila's clutter, I imagine because Sheila had previously slept in the other bed.
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Are those a farmer's day clothes and underwear sitting on the chair in the main bedroom? If so then it puts paid to the theory that he undressed downstairs. Those blue socks on the floor next to Sheila were thought to be Nevill's too.
I feel very certain that I read recently -CAL?- that both Sheila and June's clothes/underwear were found in the master bedroom.
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According to JM's WS JB told MM which rooms the occupants would be sleeping in!
There were four bedrooms: main, twins, SC's and JB's old room. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere NB and June normally slept in separate rooms.
I have seen a poster on another forum suggest June and SC were sleeping together as SC was feeling out of sorts and close proximity to June would be a comfort. This seems most unlikely as they didn't have that sort of relationship. Even if they were close I can't imagine a parent sharing a double bed with an adult child when the parent could sleep in an opposite twin. If June and/or SC decided they needed to be close then surely June would move the toiletries off the spare twin in SC's room and sleep there.
How do we know the slippers were NB's? Perhaps they were AP's from when he and his family visited and stayed over the last weekend of July. Or AP borrowed them from NB when he stayed.
Recent topics over the way have included attempting to assess JB based on his facial expressions in photos and written messages on funeral/flower cards.
I hope we're not going to get all knitting circleish on here ?>)()<
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One issue which has always bothered me is where was Sheila when her parents were being murdered? Why did she not run to the twins room to poroitect them or was she in fact locked in her bedroom?
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I've always read on here that it's assumed the twins were killed first. Surely there would have been a lot of noise which would have woken them if that's not the case.
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Allegedly, it was Neville's habit to walk the dog, shower and get ready for bed downstairs, enjoying a G&T and a cigarette in the sitting room before going up to bed. As his slippers were found under the bed in the room where Sheila had been staying, it's possible that she -for whatever reason- was sleeping in her parent's room with Neville camping in her room.
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1) There is zero objective evidence that establishes the shoes in the crime scene photos are Nevill's slippers. Neither the police who took the photos nor the family who cleaned up the house afterwards assert any shoes belonging to Nevill were in the room. Some people posting on blue simply deciding from looking at the blurry photo that they feel it is Nevill's slipper. I produced slippers looking very similar that are women's. It is simply rank speculation they are Nevilll's.
2) The notion Sheila went to sleep with her mother is absurd. She was a grown woman and was not in the habit of sleeping with her mother. She had her own room where her own clothes were.
3) The evidence proves beyond question the attack started in the master bedroom with 10-11 shots fired at Nevill and June. June suffered no less than 6 shots while Nevill suffered 4. It seems unlikely that June ran past Jeremy to the other side of the bed then ran back towards him and was knocked down or fell then he finally fired his last shot between her eyes. Much more likely is that she collapsed on her own while Nevill and Jeremy were going to the kitchen and when he returned he pull a bullet between her eyes to make sure she was dead.
It is obvious that Sheila was sleeping at the time this occurred and either didn't wake up until much later or Jeremy woke her up after killing everyone else. The notion he shot June and then carefully staged Sheila and Nevill came in shorty after this doesn't work at all.
A) Aside from making no sense for Sheila to go to bed with June, even if the gun had 11 rounds 6 into June and 2 into Sheila leaves only 3 remaining and Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom before running to the kitchen. Some of those shots mind you were fired while he was not fully upright so clearly he was seated in bed or getting out of bed when the shots were fired. I don't believe Jeremy was standing on a chair as he was shooting.
B) If Nevill entered as he was trying to position Sheila then Nevill would have tried to jump him and the shots would be to his right side or front if he managed to shoot before Nevill could get him and there would have been a struggle at that point. Otherwise Nevill would have actually made it to the shotguns uninjured. Nevill was shot in the left side because he was getting out of bed and that is the side of him that was exposed.
Sheila was clearly in her own room. She either woke up and eventually went to investigate found her mother and then Jeremy returned before she could go check on her kids and try to whisk them to safety/hide them or when Jeremy returned she was still in bed and he had to wake her up. If she was still in bed he woke her up he didn't take her in his arms like sleeping beauty and carry her to the bedroom as Adam suggests...
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I've always read on here that it's assumed the twins were killed first. Surely there would have been a lot of noise which would have woken them if that's not the case.
That assumption is not from the prosecution experts it is mainly by Jeremy supporters.
There is no way that Jeremy risked waking up his parents by shooting the boys first. Moreover had he done so then he would have had to fight his parents with far less rounds than he did.
He fired at least 10 and possibly 11 rounds in his first attack. That attack was in the master bedroom. June was shot 6-7 times in this attack and Nevill 4 times. I say 6-7 because for sure 4 shots were fired into June while she was in bed. 2 more definitely as she was in the process of getting out of bed so could have been out of the bed. These 6 shots were all fired to her right side. The final shot was between her eyes. This shot was not fired until after she walked around the bed to Nevill's side and then back towards the door collapsing. The shot was fired between her eyes to make sure she was dead. Logic suggests after Jeremy was gone is when she walked around the bed and back then collapsed and that he fired this shot when he returned from the kitchen but it is not impossible for him to have done it in the initial attack.
The gun was empty and that was why thing progressed to the kitchen. Either Jeremy ran down to get more ammo or Nevill ran to try to get a shotgun to confront Jeremy with and the pursuer caught the one fleeing in the kitchen then the struggle took place. Jeremy needed to put the gun down to reload the magazine so could not reload until Nevill was beaten unconscious. He reloaded then shot Nevill 4 times in the head killing him.
If he loaded only 4 rounds the gun was empty and then he fully reloaded it before going upstairs. If he reloaded more then that meant 6 shots in the gun (1 in the chamber, 5 in the magazine). Rather than going upstairs with only 6 shots in the gun he reloaded the magazine fully so had 11 rounds.
If when he went upstairs Sheila was in the hall looking at her dead other then he ran after her and had to kill her before the boys. Otherwise he killed the boys first (8 shots), fired one in between June's eyes to make sure she was dead, leaving 2 for Sheila. (naturally if he went upstairs with 11 during the initial attack then it means he only went upstairs with 10 after the kitchen episode)
Jeremy feared them finding out the twins were killed after Sheila so he would have good reason to kill her last and it seems he did because even though drawback remains after several shots the blood right in the opening would likely have not been there if 8 shots had been fired subsequently.
So in all likelihood he killed the boys 3rd and 4th and then Sheila last.
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I've always read on here that it's assumed the twins were killed first. Surely there would have been a lot of noise which would have woken them if that's not the case.
I've never thought the children were shot first. Small children often sleep through a lot of noise eg house parties.
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I've never thought the children were shot first. Small children often sleep through a lot of noise eg house parties.
Not just children, there are plenty of adults who have slept through things that one would expect to wake them from earthquakes to thunder, to explosions.
Nothing suggests that Sheila woke up either not just the kids but since none of them were in rooms that had a shared wall with the bedroom and the kitchen was so distant it is not very surprising.
Mind you they can wake up and then go right back to sleep as well. In the news today they announced the arrest of a man for breaking into an apartment and raping a little girl. She was raped in the top bunk of bunk beds. Her brother was in the lower bunk. He woke up as the man climbed to the top bunk but went back to sleep at first. Only after the bed was shaking from the man penetrating her did he wake up fully and at that point run to his parents. If he had gotten up sooner the parents could have entered before the actual rape took place but it took the actual rape to wake him. His sister crying and the man talking to her was not enough it took his bed rattling.
People are most vulnerable in their sleep that is why common law burglary was breaking in at night. Obviously we expanded the definition since then but that was a requirement at common law back in the day.
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It is claimed by some that NB slept in SC's room on the night of the tragedy. One reason given for this is that a pair of slippers, which give the appearance of belonging to a male, were found in SC's room albeit to the left (looking from the foot of the bed towards the beds head) of the spare bed which had SC's toiletries on.
However a slipper was also found NB's side of the bed in the main bedroom between bullet DRH1 and the bible:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=tcn4foej82apqf9d1infavq614&action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199
The idea that SC slept with June is imo barmey. Reasons given for SC/June sleeping together:
- wanted to read bible together
- SC wanted comfort from June or vice-versa
- SC wanted to be closer to the twins to listen out for them waking
The Pargeters stayed at WHF last week-end July so it's surely reasonable that the slippers belonged to AP and he left them behind; or he borrowed a spare pair from NB; or the Bambers provided slippers for guests? If I remeber correctly from CAL's book the Pargeters had two daughters with them so its possible the daughets slept in the twins room with AP and his wife (Irena I think?) sleeping in SC's room. Did JB's room have a bed in it? If so single, double or twins?
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The slipper just visible to the left of the bible in the main bedroom was probably one of a pair, the second being hidden behind or under the chair. It's obvious to me the clothes on that chair were Nevill's (not Sheila's), placed there before he got into bed.
Even if the slipper (only one is visible) in Sheila's room was a man's, she might have borrowed a pair off Nevill if she'd forgotten to bring her own. Who knows... they could have been hers, and preferred them to women's. It looks newish, clean and fleece-lined.
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The slipper just visible to the left of the bible in the main bedroom was probably one of a pair, the second being hidden behind or under the chair. It's obvious to me the clothes on that chair were Nevill's (not Sheila's), placed there before he got into bed.
Even if the slipper (only one is visible) in Sheila's room was a man's, she might have borrowed a pair off Nevill if she'd forgotten to bring her own. Who knows... they could have been hers, and preferred them to women's. It looks newish, clean and fleece-lined.
The picture isn't clear enough to tell if that is a man's slipper whereas the other one is.
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It is claimed by some that NB slept in SC's room on the night of the tragedy. One reason given for this is that a pair of slippers, which give the appearance of belonging to a male, were found in SC's room albeit to the left (looking from the foot of the bed towards the beds head) of the spare bed which had SC's toiletries on.
However a slipper was also found NB's side of the bed in the main bedroom between bullet DRH1 and the bible:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=tcn4foej82apqf9d1infavq614&action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199
The idea that SC slept with June is imo barmey. Reasons given for SC/June sleeping together:
- wanted to read bible together
- SC wanted comfort from June or vice-versa
- SC wanted to be closer to the twins to listen out for them waking
The Pargeters stayed at WHF last week-end July so it's surely reasonable that the slippers belonged to AP and he left them behind; or he borrowed a spare pair from NB; or the Bambers provided slippers for guests? If I remeber correctly from CAL's book the Pargeters had two daughters with them so its possible the daughets slept in the twins room with AP and his wife (Irena I think?) sleeping in SC's room. Did JB's room have a bed in it? If so single, double or twins?
But we don't know that it did belong to AP so that suggestion and the rest of you speculation can also be viewed as 'barmey'.
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But we don't know that it did belong to AP so that suggestion and the rest of you speculation can also be viewed as 'barmey'.
Speculative yes but I wouldn't go as far as putting it into the "barmey" category.
The SoC photo shows the slippers to the left of the spare bed with the toiletries on. If the slippers were worn by NB and he slept in SC's bed surely he would take them off before getting into bed and they would be to the left or right of SC's bed? I guess Crispy could have moved them 8)-)))
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5849
CAL's book describes JB's room as having a "narrow bed". So it seems likely the Pargeters and their daughters would have the same sleeping arrangments as the twins and SC. The Pargeters departed from WHF on the Sunday before SC and the twins arrived.
I dont think parents share beds with adult children unless circumstances dictate eg lack of an alternative bed? Perhaps it's different in the North? There's overwhelming evidence the June/SC relationship was strained at the best of times and that's putting it mildly. The idea of the pair cosying up to read the bible and/or offering each other comfort by close proximity and/or so SC could listen out for the twins is IMO barmey. If SC felt she needed to be near the twins, or the twins wanted to be near her, then I'm sure NB could have moved another single into SC's room. Or SC could have slept in JB's old room and been directly opposite the twins room.
What makes you think NB slept in SC's bed and SC slept where NB usually slept?
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The picture isn't clear enough to tell if that is a man's slipper whereas the other one is.
Nonsense. The photo is blurry plus the shoe is half hidden under the bed- we can't see the front of it which for all you know has a bow on it or was pointed thus indicating it was definitely a female's shoe.
It is your unsupported opinion it is Nevill's shoe, indeed if his shoe had been in there police would have been likely to note it.
You take this unsupported claim then craft around it the notion Sheila slept with her mother which is absurd. She was a grown woman not a child. My paternal grandmother and adult aunt slept in the same bed only after my grandfather died and even then only when they visited a place where there was only one spare bed so they had to share it or if so many people visited my grandmother that my aunt gave up her bed to the visitor and thus slept with my grandmother.
When we were 10 or so my grandfather was still alive and we stayed over because our parents went away and we stayed in my aunt's bed with her. She didn't sleep with my grandmother and us with our grandfather.
My maternal grandmother never shared a bed with my mom. My mom would have to sleep on the floor if there was no room anywhere else.
The notion Sheila wanted to sleep with her mom for comfort is just absurd.
If that had happened then Jeremy would have been screwed because Nevill would have come from the other room and disarmed him. He shot Nevill's while Nevill was not facing him. He shot Nevill's left profile as Nevill was getting out of bed.
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I dont think parents share beds with adult children unless circumstances dictate eg lack of an alternative bed? Perhaps it's different in the North?
Of course it's different in poor Northern Numpty Land!.. parents here always share beds with adult children because they're cheaper than Fashys. (http://i.imgur.com/maRRkoI.gif)
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I wonder if Crispy stayed with Sheila that night. Is that a dog bed and a red woollen blanket with a few dog hairs on it in the foreground?...
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Nonsense. The photo is blurry plus the shoe is half hidden under the bed- we can't see the front of it which for all you know has a bow on it or was pointed thus indicating it was definitely a female's shoe.
It is your unsupported opinion it is Nevill's shoe, indeed if his shoe had been in there police would have been likely to note it.
You take this unsupported claim then craft around it the notion Sheila slept with her mother which is absurd. She was a grown woman not a child. My paternal grandmother and adult aunt slept in the same bed only after my grandfather died and even then only when they visited a place where there was only one spare bed so they had to share it or if so many people visited my grandmother that my aunt gave up her bed to the visitor and thus slept with my grandmother.
When we were 10 or so my grandfather was still alive and we stayed over because our parents went away and we stayed in my aunt's bed with her. She didn't sleep with my grandmother and us with our grandfather.
My maternal grandmother never shared a bed with my mom. My mom would have to sleep on the floor if there was no room anywhere else.
The notion Sheila wanted to sleep with her mom for comfort is just absurd.
If that had happened then Jeremy would have been screwed because Nevill would have come from the other room and disarmed him. He shot Nevill's while Nevill was not facing him. He shot Nevill's left profile as Nevill was getting out of bed.
Well, does anyone else think it's a ladies slipper and just might be sporting a bow anywhere? However, I never said Sheila slept with June for comfort, I said she could have perhaps been there because she wanted to be closer to the twins or because June was worried about her state and didn't want her being alone. I believe that Nevill was outside of the main bedroom or just inside the door when he was shot - there is no evidence to suggest he was inside because there is no blood and all of the casings (except those used to kill Sheila) are located near the door - I don't believe that Jeremy would ever have let Nevill pass him in the bedroom had he been vulnerable enough to have been laying down and he would have dealt with him first. Perhaps it was a shock that Nevill wasn't where is was 'supposed' to be - which is how he managed to escape downstairs. Of course this is just my opinion - but it IS another way of looking at things.
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Speculative yes but I wouldn't go as far as putting it into the "barmey" category.
The SoC photo shows the slippers to the left of the spare bed with the toiletries on. If the slippers were worn by NB and he slept in SC's bed surely he would take them off before getting into bed and they would be to the left or right of SC's bed? I guess Crispy could have moved them 8)-)))
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5849
CAL's book describes JB's room as having a "narrow bed". So it seems likely the Pargeters and their daughters would have the same sleeping arrangments as the twins and SC. The Pargeters departed from WHF on the Sunday before SC and the twins arrived.
I dont think parents share beds with adult children unless circumstances dictate eg lack of an alternative bed? Perhaps it's different in the North? There's overwhelming evidence the June/SC relationship was strained at the best of times and that's putting it mildly. The idea of the pair cosying up to read the bible and/or offering each other comfort by close proximity and/or so SC could listen out for the twins is IMO barmey. If SC felt she needed to be near the twins, or the twins wanted to be near her, then I'm sure NB could have moved another single into SC's room. Or SC could have slept in JB's old room and been directly opposite the twins room.
What makes you think NB slept in SC's bed and SC slept where NB usually slept?
Just posted why I think Nevill may have slept elsewhere - however; ye reet aboot the North, it's any awld port n'a storm wen it comes terra bit kip, divant need a bed like. The dog basket u'l dee or even under the cheble! (wipes nose on sleeve and scratches arse!). 8(0(*
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Is there any evidence the visible slipper is one of a pair in-situ?
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Well, does anyone else think it's a ladies slipper and just might be sporting a bow anywhere? However, I never said Sheila slept with June for comfort, I said she could have perhaps been there because she wanted to be closer to the twinsor because June was worried about her state and didn't want her being alone. I believe that Nevill was outside of the main bedroom or just inside the door when he was shot - there is no evidence to suggest he was inside because there is no blood and all of the casings (except those used to kill Sheila) are located near the door - I don't believe that Jeremy would ever have let Nevill pass him in the bedroom had he been vulnerable enough to have been laying down and he would have dealt with him first. Perhaps it was a shock that Nevill wasn't where is was 'supposed' to be - which is how he managed to escape downstairs. Of course this is just my opinion - but it IS another way of looking at things.
When FE called WHF circa March '85 to speak with NB re SC's state he asked if NB could come as soon as possible. NB said he could not come until the following day. NB and June both visited the following day and took SC to St Andrews where she was readmitted for in-patient psychiatric care. So it appears they were not unduly concerned about SC's state?
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Is there any evidence the visible slipper is one of a pair in-situ?
I think you can just make out a thin black edge of another slipper above the visible one, and it isn't part of the linear carpet pattern which can be seen towards the bottom of the pic...
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Well, does anyone else think it's a ladies slipper and just might be sporting a bow anywhere? However, I never said Sheila slept with June for comfort, I said she could have perhaps been there because she wanted to be closer to the twins or because June was worried about her state and didn't want her being alone. I believe that Nevill was outside of the main bedroom or just inside the door when he was shot - there is no evidence to suggest he was inside because there is no blood and all of the casings (except those used to kill Sheila) are located near the door - I don't believe that Jeremy would ever have let Nevill pass him in the bedroom had he been vulnerable enough to have been laying down and he would have dealt with him first. Perhaps it was a shock that Nevill wasn't where is was 'supposed' to be - which is how he managed to escape downstairs. Of course this is just my opinion - but it IS another way of looking at things.
DC Hammersley's trial testimony states the bed was stripped and anything of evidential value removed. However I dont think I've seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding other than June's pillow and pillowcases?
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I think you can just make out a thin black edge of another slipper above the visible one, and it isn't part of the linear carpet pattern which can be seen towards the bottom of the pic...
Thanks. Super observant.
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Speculative yes but I wouldn't go as far as putting it into the "barmey" category.
The SoC photo shows the slippers to the left of the spare bed with the toiletries on. If the slippers were worn by NB and he slept in SC's bed surely he would take them off before getting into bed and they would be to the left or right of SC's bed? I guess Crispy could have moved them 8)-)))
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5849
CAL's book describes JB's room as having a "narrow bed". So it seems likely the Pargeters and their daughters would have the same sleeping arrangments as the twins and SC. The Pargeters departed from WHF on the Sunday before SC and the twins arrived.
I dont think parents share beds with adult children unless circumstances dictate eg lack of an alternative bed? Perhaps it's different in the North? There's overwhelming evidence the June/SC relationship was strained at the best of times and that's putting it mildly. The idea of the pair cosying up to read the bible and/or offering each other comfort by close proximity and/or so SC could listen out for the twins is IMO barmey. If SC felt she needed to be near the twins, or the twins wanted to be near her, then I'm sure NB could have moved another single into SC's room. Or SC could have slept in JB's old room and been directly opposite the twins room.
What makes you think NB slept in SC's bed and SC slept where NB usually slept?
Could it be that he was resentful he ended up in the "narrow bed" at a time when his immature ego was unable to cope with his sense of abandonment by his birth parents AND being resigned to the "narrow bed" by his adoptive parents? NB and June's bed looks like it might be queen sized. SC had the choice of two spacious looking singles. What about the dog baskets?
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Could it be that he was resentful he ended up in the "narrow bed" at a time when his immature ego was unable to cope with his sense of abandonment by his birth parents AND being resigned to the "narrow bed" by his adoptive parents? NB and June's bed looks like it might be queen sized. SC had the choice of two spacious looking singles. What about the dog baskets?
No, his little room probably had racy pics from Playboy, Penthouse, etc. pinned up, so he didn't want to move to different one with bigger bed because it would mean refixing them elsewhere.
What about the dog baskets?
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No, his little room probably had racy pics from Playboy, Penthouse, etc. pinned up, so he didn't want to move to different one with bigger bed because it would mean refixing them elsewhere.
What about the dog baskets?
They might have been proportionately larger than his "narrow bed" sowing the seeds of discord.
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When FE called WHF circa March '85 to speak with NB re SC's state he asked if NB could come as soon as possible. NB said he could not come until the following day. NB and June both visited the following day and took SC to St Andrews where she was readmitted for in-patient psychiatric care. So it appears they were not unduly concerned about SC's state?
That's when they would have had to drive to London - she was in the same house on the night of the murders. Not as much effort required - don't mean that in a nasty way just it was easier to deal with being in their own home.
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Is there any evidence the visible slipper is one of a pair in-situ?
Not that I know of.
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I think you can just make out a thin black edge of another slipper above the visible one, and it isn't part of the linear carpet pattern which can be seen towards the bottom of the pic...
Yes, I see that too. Thank Myster, missed that before :)
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That's when they would have had to drive to London - she was in the same house on the night of the murders. Not as much effort required - don't mean that in a nasty way just it was easier to deal with being in their own home.
I would have thought SC's state was the determining factor not her proximity? WHF to Morshead Mansions is a little over 1.5 hour drive.
It makes no sense to me that the Bambers were happy to leave SC to her own devices knowing she was in some considerable state and yet were so concerned when she was under their roof she needed to sleep with June?
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DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED?
Dr F's wit stats
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193
"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil". These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".
"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex. Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".
"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."
"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197
"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants. I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed. She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions. This was around 1959. She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.
Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214
"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her. This would upset Sheila and annoy her".
"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother. Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD. She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents. She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216
"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend. She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".
"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218
"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".
CC's Letter Intended For NB
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232
"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters. I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".
Excerpt From Claire Powell's book
Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June. She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother. It was a theme she reverted to constantly. 'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja. 'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on. Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them. She said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did.
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DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED?
Dr F's wit stats
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193
"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil". These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".
"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex. Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".
"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."
"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197
"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants. I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed. She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions. This was around 1959. She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.
Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214
"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her. This would upset Sheila and annoy her".
"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother. Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD. She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents. She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216
"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend. She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".
"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218
"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".
CC's Letter Intended For NB
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232
"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters. I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".
Excerpt From Claire Powell's book
Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June. She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother. It was a theme she reverted to constantly. 'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja. 'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on. Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them. She said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did.
I don't think anyone suggested they were hugging all night. If they did share the same room it would have been for practical reasons. You make it sound as though they couldn't stand being in the same room and yet there she was - spending the week with her mother and had even spent the day with her.
I am sure Sheila and her mother had their issues but I am also sure that they would have cared for each other a great deal.
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I don't think anyone suggested they were hugging all night. If they did share the same room it would have been for practical reasons. You make it sound as though they couldn't stand being in the same room and yet there she was - spending the week with her mother and had even spent the day with her.
I am sure Sheila and her mother had their issues but I am also sure that they would have cared for each other a great deal.
What practical reasons?
I can only go on the accounts of those who knew SC personally eg her pscyhiatrist, former husband and two best friends.
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I thought I had answered this?
What practical reasons?
I can only go on the accounts of those who knew SC personally eg her pscyhiatrist, former husband and two best friends.
Sorry? Point me to where they were asked about Sheila sharing a room with her mother?
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Sorry? Point me to where they were asked about Sheila sharing a room with her mother?
My post started with:
"DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED"?
And it was in capitals and bold too only to distinguish the question from all the quotes. I dont usually use caps as it can give the impression of SHOUTING and I aint a shouty sort of person.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6697.msg289994#msg289994
What are the practical reasons you believe existed for June and SC to share the bed in the main bedroom?
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My post started with:
"DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED"?
And it was in capitals and bold too only to distinguish the question from all the quotes. I dont usually use caps as it can give the impression of SHOUTING and I aint a shouty sort of person.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6697.msg289994#msg289994
What are the practical reasons you believe existed for June and SC to share the bed in the main bedroom?
I've already answered that several times both here and on the blue forum. However, June relayed to Pam how she was worried about Sheila because she was seemingly very withdrawn.
1. PERHAPS given her condition, June (or indeed Nevill) might have suggested that she not be left alone. Given that the twins were sleeping nearer to the main bedroom.
2.PERHAPS she wanted to stay there for easier access if they woke (perhaps they had woken over the few days of the visit).
3. PERHAPS, given that Nevill was late to bed that night (because Jeremy left him to finish the rape harvest), he suggested the swap.
There are many plausible reasons why such a swap might have occurred. The fact that they didn't always get on is neither here nor there - given that she had 'chosen' to stay with her parents for the week - this proves that they could stand being in the same room without ripping each others hair out!!
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I've already answered that several times both here and on the blue forum. However, June relayed to Pam how she was worried about Sheila because she was seemingly very withdrawn.
1. PERHAPS given her condition, June (or indeed Nevill) might have suggested that she not be left alone. Given that the twins were sleeping nearer to the main bedroom.
2.PERHAPS she wanted to stay there for easier access if they woke (perhaps they had woken over the few days of the visit).
3. PERHAPS, given that Nevill was late to bed that night (because Jeremy left him to finish the rape harvest), he suggested the swap.
There are many plausible reasons why such a swap might have occurred. The fact that they didn't always get on is neither here nor there - given that she had 'chosen' to stay with her parents for the week - this proves that they could stand being in the same room without ripping each others hair out!!
Oh well thanks for going to the trouble to explain again. You could have just linked me to your posts. Have to do other things now but I'll read your post later and if I feel I can add to it I will ?>)()<
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Oh well thanks for going to the trouble to explain again. You could have just linked me to your posts. Have to do other things now but I'll read your post later and if I feel I can add to it I will ?>)()<
No problem, easier to write it out again rather than search for previous posts.
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No problem, easier to write it out again rather than search for previous posts.
I see also on Blue you have explained a little as to why you think NB may have been sleeping elsewhere ie none of his blood was found in the main bedroom and all casings (aside the 2 attributed to SC) were around the door:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7169.msg338491.html#msg338491
"Hi Tom, from your account I guess you don't think he did the shooting (some people think he's guilty but 'framed' with the silencer evidence)? Can I ask why you think EP would frame Jeremy when they had the case sewn up as a murder/suicide? Especially as they had to make themselves look pretty stupid and seriously incompetent in order to do so. Also, at what point did they start framing him? If there was a call from Nevill, they knew t from day one and could have proven to the relatives that Jeremy was innocent. If there was a female body in the kitchen, they knew it from day one and could have proven ........ you get the picture. So, when and why would they have decided to frame Jeremy?
Jeremy being framed drags up more questions than why Nevill wasn't targeted first BUT, I can offer a suggestion (or two). The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened. Nevill may have awoken before Jeremy was able to get into a good enough position to shoot OR he may have been sleeping in another room (there are no casings on Nevill's side of the bed other than those used to kill Sheila, none of Nevill's blood was found in the main bedroom but there was some outside of Sheila's room - on the landing and all of the casings are located near to the main bedroom door). This may explain how Nevill managed to get passed Jeremy and down stairs."
I know DC Hammersely said in his trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the main bed but I dont think I've actually seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding other than June's pillow and pillow cases?
DRH/49 represents a carpet sample taken from the landing about 15" away from SC's bedroom door and approx between the door posts. Whose blood was this? The COA doc states 5 carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom but I can only find two exhibit numbers? And two exhibit numbers for carpet samples taken from the landing DRH/49 and DRH/47 which are not mentioned in COA doc. The carpet samples in the main bedroom showed June's blood only.
Several diagrams exist showing the layout of WHF do you know if any measurements exist? It should be possible to ascertain the length of the rifle with and without the silencer attached. I was just wondering how easy, or difficult, it might be to move around with the rifle/silencer? Especially on the landing?
JM states in her WS's that JB told MM where everyone was sleeping and the only problem MM encountered was having a mental blank and shooting NB 7 times in the kitchen and that a glove may have come off in the process. No mention of NB sleeping in a different room. Mind you I find her testimony totally unreliable anyway.
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I've already answered that several times both here and on the blue forum. However, June relayed to Pam how she was worried about Sheila because she was seemingly very withdrawn.
1. PERHAPS given her condition, June (or indeed Nevill) might have suggested that she not be left alone. Given that the twins were sleeping nearer to the main bedroom.
2.PERHAPS she wanted to stay there for easier access if they woke (perhaps they had woken over the few days of the visit).
3. PERHAPS, given that Nevill was late to bed that night (because Jeremy left him to finish the rape harvest), he suggested the swap.
There are many plausible reasons why such a swap might have occurred. The fact that they didn't always get on is neither here nor there - given that she had 'chosen' to stay with her parents for the week - this proves that they could stand being in the same room without ripping each others hair out!!
1. As I've previously stated the Bambers didn't seem unduly concerned about SC's state when FE phoned asking them/NB to come straight away. They declined until the following day. This was when her condition was such doctors were called to sedate her. So I dont see why they would be so concerned about SC when she was under their roof that they felt it was appropriate for SC to sleep with June.
2. JB's room is more or less opposite the twins room. If SC felt she needed to be closer to the twins, or vice-versa, she could have slept there? There's a box room between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom with two connecting doors. Do you know if the doors were open or closed?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
CAL's book mentions the twins sleeping at SC's best friend's house without either parent present and they were fine. So I'm sure they were fine to have their own bedroom at their grandparents home with their mother sleeping in a nearby bedroom.
3. Perhaps NB was late to bed but I'm not sure that would lend itself to SC sleeping with June and NB sleeping in SC's bed. Was SC's bedding forensically analysed? If NB slept there no doubt a hair or two of his would have been on the pillow.
I guess SC went to WHF to visit others not just June eg NB and JB. Perhaps she liked seeing the extended family too. She telephoned Betty Howie's daughter ?, Sarah I believe, to arrange to meet her. Regardless of SC's relationship with June, which I think was poor and wouldn't lend to her wanting to share a bed with June, it's so not the norm for adult children to share beds with parents unless circumstances dictate eg lack of bed elsewhere.
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I can't see Nevill changing into pyjamas in the main bedroom, leaving his day clothes on the chair nearest to his side of the double bed, traipsing to Sheila's room to sleep, only to then rise early as farmers are wont to do and traipse back again to get dressed in front of two dozing females. There was no sign of any of his clothes in Sheila's room, was there?... only her own on the spare single bed and nearby chair.
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I can't see Nevill changing into pyjamas in the main bedroom, leaving his day clothes on the chair nearest to his side of the double bed, traipsing to Sheila's room to sleep, only to then rise early as farmers are wont to do and traipse back again to get dressed in front of two dozing females. There was no sign of any of his clothes in Sheila's room, was there?... only her own on the spare single bed and nearby chair.
My head is hurting with it all 8)><( And I believe the blue socks were NB's?
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1. As I've previously stated the Bambers didn't seem unduly concerned about SC's state when FE phoned asking them/NB to come straight away. They declined until the following day. This was when her condition was such doctors were called to sedate her. So I dont see why they would be so concerned about SC when she was under their roof that they felt it was appropriate for SC to sleep with June.
2. JB's room is more or less opposite the twins room. If SC felt she needed to be closer to the twins, or vice-versa, she could have slept there? There's a box room between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom with two connecting doors. Do you know if the doors were open or closed?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
CAL's book mentions the twins sleeping at SC's best friend's house without either of their parents present and they were fine. So I'm sure they were fine to have their own bedroom at their grandparents home with their mother sleeping in a nearby bedroom.
3. Perhaps NB was late to bed but I'm not sure that would lend itself to SC sleeping with June and NB sleeping in SC's bed. Was SC's bedding forensically analysed? If NB slept there no doubt a hair or two of his would have been on the pillow.
I guess SC went to WHF to visit others not just June eg NB and JB. Perhaps she liked seeing the extended family too. She telephoned Betty Howie's daughter ?, Sarah I believe, to arrange to meet her. Regardless of SC's relationship with June, which I think was poor and wouldn't lend to her wanting to share a bed with June, it's so not the norm for adult children to share beds with parents unless circumstances dictate eg lack of bed elsewhere.
Addressing your first point. I wonder how many times the Bambers had seen Sheila since she left hospital. Might they have assumed, that having received treatment, she was now well? HAD they seen her when she first left St Andrews, I imagine they'd have seen a very different person from the one who arrived at WHF that August. They may have been shocked by the person she'd become.
Re your second point. I agree with Caroline that the reasons for Sheila being in her mother's bedroom are far more likely to have been practical as opposed to emotional.........................BUT, and here's the rider. I agree with you that their relationship was poor, but Sheila was there, albeit, probably not for herself, but because her parents wanted to see the boys before their holiday, and I wouldn't mind betting that she longed for greater understanding between them -she'd apparently even turned to religion -why might that be- to impress June, perhaps? I don't believe the two women were ever going to understand each other but it wasn't Sheila's responsibility to make that effort unless it matched a similar effort on June's part. Some have been disdainful of my suggestion that June may have been reading the bible to Sheila. I think it's likely that religion was the only platform on which they could meet as equals and I don't find it at all strange that Sheila might submit to it as a bonding exercise.
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Addressing your first point. I wonder how many times the Bambers had seen Sheila since she left hospital.Might they have assumed, that having received treatment, she was now well? HAD they seen her when she first left St Andrews, I imagine they'd have seen a very different person from the one who arrived at WHF that August. They may have been shocked by the person she'd become.
I thought June visited SC with weekly food parcels? No. Firstly June expressed concern about SC with Pam. Secondly I believe Dr F had made it clear SC's mental illness was chronic.
Re your second point. I agree with Caroline that the reasons for Sheila being in her mother's bedroom are far more likely to have been practical as opposed to emotional.........................BUT, and here's the rider. I agree with you that their relationship was poor, but Sheila was there, albeit, probably not for herself, but because her parents wanted to see the boys before their holiday, and I wouldn't mind betting that she longed for greater understanding between them -she'd apparently even turned to religion -why might that be- to impress June, perhaps? I don't believe the two women were ever going to understand each other but it wasn't Sheila's responsibility to make that effort unless it matched a similar effort on June's part. Some have been disdainful of my suggestion that June may have been reading the bible to Sheila. I think it's likely that religion was the only platform on which they could meet as equals and I don't find it at all strange that Sheila might submit to it as a bonding exercise.
There's no firm evidence SC slept in her parents bedroom.
No not necessarily. She had recently met with her maternal birth family. Her birth mother is a member of a church. Her birth grandfather was at one time senior clergy; a prof in theology and wrote several books about such. It's just as likely those things changed her attitude towards religion rather than a desire to mesh with June?
And no I absolutely do not think the pair read the bible in bed together in an attempt to bond.
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I can't see Nevill changing into pyjamas in the main bedroom, leaving his day clothes on the chair nearest to his side of the double bed, traipsing to Sheila's room to sleep, only to then rise early as farmers are wont to do and traipse back again to get dressed in front of two dozing females. There was no sign of any of his clothes in Sheila's room, was there?... only her own on the spare single bed and nearby chair.
It's kind of a moot point anyway - we'll never know for definite.
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This creepy theory was first suggested on the Blue forum in October. A poster suggesting Neville, June and Sheila shared a bed on the massacre night, which was discussed between three posters. I said I didn't agree, and one of the posters said I 'didn't know about family values' !
It was then brought up again in November, although amended to just June and Sheila sharing a bed.
The overwhelming evidence is Neville was shot in the bedroom, and Sheila and the twins didn't wake until it was there turn.
Interestingly, the people who do not agree with this are supporters or former supporters. In other words the same people who didn't accept the evidence or common sense approach showing that Bamber is the killer.
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This creepy theory was first suggested on the Blue forum in October. A poster suggesting Neville, June and Sheila shared a bed on the massacre night, which was discussed between three posters. I said I didn't agree, and one of the posters said I 'didn't know about family values' !
It was then brought up again in November, although amended to just June and Sheila sharing a bed.
The overwhelming evidence is Neville was shot in the bedroom, and Sheila and the twins didn't wake until it was there turn.
Interestingly, the people who do not agree with this are supporters or former supporters. In other words the same people who didn't accept the evidence or common sense approach showing that Bamber is the killer.
The precise location of perp and victim are key and this will be determined by SoC reconstruction using precise measurements of WHF, length of rifle with and without silencer, SoC photos and pathology reports.
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I see also on Blue you have explained a little as to why you think NB may have been sleeping elsewhere ie none of his blood was found in the main bedroom and all casings (aside the 2 attributed to SC) were around the door:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7169.msg338491.html#msg338491
"Hi Tom, from your account I guess you don't think he did the shooting (some people think he's guilty but 'framed' with the silencer evidence)? Can I ask why you think EP would frame Jeremy when they had the case sewn up as a murder/suicide? Especially as they had to make themselves look pretty stupid and seriously incompetent in order to do so. Also, at what point did they start framing him? If there was a call from Nevill, they knew t from day one and could have proven to the relatives that Jeremy was innocent. If there was a female body in the kitchen, they knew it from day one and could have proven ........ you get the picture. So, when and why would they have decided to frame Jeremy?
Jeremy being framed drags up more questions than why Nevill wasn't targeted first BUT, I can offer a suggestion (or two). The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened. Nevill may have awoken before Jeremy was able to get into a good enough position to shoot OR he may have been sleeping in another room (there are no casings on Nevill's side of the bed other than those used to kill Sheila, none of Nevill's blood was found in the main bedroom but there was some outside of Sheila's room - on the landing and all of the casings are located near to the main bedroom door). This may explain how Nevill managed to get passed Jeremy and down stairs."
I know DC Hammersely said in his trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the main bed but I dont think I've actually seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding other than June's pillow and pillow cases?
DRH/49 represents a carpet sample taken from the landing about 15" away from SC's bedroom door and approx between the door posts. Whose blood was this? The COA doc states 5 carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom but I can only find two exhibit numbers? And two exhibit numbers for carpet samples taken from the landing DRH/49 and DRH/47 which are not mentioned in COA doc. The carpet samples in the main bedroom showed June's blood only.
Several diagrams exist showing the layout of WHF do you know if any measurements exist? It should be possible to ascertain the length of the rifle with and without the silencer attached. I was just wondering how easy, or difficult, it might be to move around with the rifle/silencer? Especially on the landing?
JM states in her WS's that JB told MM where everyone was sleeping and the only problem MM encountered was having a mental blank and shooting NB 7 times in the kitchen and that a glove may have come off in the process. No mention of NB sleeping in a different room. Mind you I find her testimony totally unreliable anyway.
Just thinking about DRH/49 above I wonder if this might be unrelated to murders and linked to SC's period? Apologies to those who find these sorts of conversations distasteful but personally speaking during the early phase of a period, which Dr V confirmed SC's was, can be quite a vulnerable time especially at night/first thing in morning. Ie after lying flat the full force of gravity is no mean feat and often overload for the tampon. There's much evidence of an unruly period by way of the buckets and tampon applicator found in lounge.
Alternatively the period might have started during the night prior to the use of a tampon.
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Just thinking about DRH/49 above I wonder if this might be unrelated to murders and linked to SC's period? Apologies to those who find these sorts of conversations distasteful but personally speaking during the early phase of a period, which Dr V confirmed SC's was, can be quite a vulnerable time especially at night/first thing in morning. Ie after lying flat the full force of gravity is no mean feat and often overload for the tampon. There's much evidence of an unruly period by way of the buckets and tampon applicator found in lounge.
Alternatively the period might have started during the night prior to the use of a tampon.
Pure speculation but I was wondering if SC may have got up in the night to either use a tampon at the start of her period or change one. Perhaps using the downstairs loo so as to not wake anyone upstairs and/or the downstairs flush was better in terms of flushing a used tampon, wrapper etc. Perhaps both loos (think there were only 2?) struggled to dispose of sanitary products. Hence the cardboard applicator was not used but found in the lounge which I believe AE noted had not actually been used. I assume AE determined it hadnt been used as it looked clean.
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I thought June visited SC with weekly food parcels? No. Firstly June expressed concern about SC with Pam. Secondly I believe Dr F had made it clear SC's mental illness was chronic.
There's no firm evidence SC slept in her parents bedroom.
No not necessarily. She had recently met with her maternal birth family. Her birth mother is a member of a church. Her birth grandfather was at one time senior clergy; a prof in theology and wrote several books about such. It's just as likely those things changed her attitude towards religion rather than a desire to mesh with June?
And no I absolutely do not think the pair read the bible in bed together in an attempt to bond.
SC's last tragic visit to WHF was also the first since meeting with her birth family. I say birth family as CAL's book tells of a dinner party with not only her birth mother but also her birth uncle, Peter Jay, and birth grandparrents, Eric and Margaret Jay.
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You might be right about DRH49... for a change. I found it odd that just one isolated spot was on that part of the landing near her bedroom door, unless there were smaller less visible ones nearby which weren't sampled (other than DRH47). It could have been a stray blob that was flung out when the final shot was fired at June as she was lying in the doorway. If it was tested the result might be hidden in the thousands of files sitting in a certain Wakefield cell.
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You might be right about DRH49... for a change. I found it odd that just one isolated spot was on that part of the landing near her bedroom door, unless there were smaller less visible ones nearby which weren't sampled (other than DRH47). It could have been a stray blob that was flung out when the final shot was fired at June as she was lying in the doorway. If it was tested the result might be hidden in the thousands of files sitting in a certain Wakefield cell.
I'm sure I have read some blood was found on the stairs but couldnt be certain if a) I read it and b) how reliable it was if I did read it - I dont think it was in any official doc.
I dont think it would be possible for blood to fling that far from June. Also my understanding is that once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the potential for spatter from other wounds can be affected by, for example, the lowering of blood pressure caused by first (or subseqent) gunshot wound(s).
NB sustained gunshot wounds closer to DRH/49 than June did (I think).
A crime scene reconstruction could potentially answer these questions.
It appears that cartridge case ejection patterns are not that reliable:
http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/7104
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I'm sure I have read some blood was found on the stairs but couldnt be certain if a) I read it and b) how reliable it was if I did read it - I dont think it was in any official doc.
I dont think it would be possible for blood to fling that far from June. Also my understanding is that once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the potential for spatter from other wounds can be affected by, for example, the lowering of blood pressure caused by first (or subseqent) gunshot wound(s).
NB sustained gunshot wounds closer to DRH/49 than June did (I think).
A crime scene reconstruction could potentially answer these questions.
It appears that cartridge case ejection patterns are not that reliable:
http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/7104
I remembered where I had read about the blood on the stairs carpet:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
It seems EP cleaned the carpet and I don't believe any samples were taken from this location.
Chances are it was NB's blood.
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1. As I've previously stated the Bambers didn't seem unduly concerned about SC's state when FE phoned asking them/NB to come straight away. They declined until the following day. This was when her condition was such doctors were called to sedate her. So I dont see why they would be so concerned about SC when she was under their roof that they felt it was appropriate for SC to sleep with June.
2. JB's room is more or less opposite the twins room. If SC felt she needed to be closer to the twins, or vice-versa, she could have slept there? There's a box room between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom with two connecting doors. Do you know if the doors were open or closed?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
CAL's book mentions the twins sleeping at SC's best friend's house without either parent present and they were fine. So I'm sure they were fine to have their own bedroom at their grandparents home with their mother sleeping in a nearby bedroom.
3. Perhaps NB was late to bed but I'm not sure that would lend itself to SC sleeping with June and NB sleeping in SC's bed. Was SC's bedding forensically analysed? If NB slept there no doubt a hair or two of his would have been on the pillow.
I guess SC went to WHF to visit others not just June eg NB and JB. Perhaps she liked seeing the extended family too. She telephoned Betty Howie's daughter ?, Sarah I believe, to arrange to meet her. Regardless of SC's relationship with June, which I think was poor and wouldn't lend to her wanting to share a bed with June, it's so not the norm for adult children to share beds with parents unless circumstances dictate eg lack of bed elsewhere.
Re 2 above and the box room located between the main bedroom and twins room am I right in thinking the two single beds were positioned vertically against the internal walls effectively shutting off the twins room and box room?
Conversations with self: Oh Holly do keep up. How long have you been at this now?
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Re 2 above and the box room located between the main bedroom and twins room am I right in thinking the two single beds were positioned vertically against the internal walls effectively shutting off the twins room and box room?
Conversations with self: Oh Holly do keep up. How long have you been at this now?
There was a step down from the twins' room into the Box room and Daniel's bed was away from the adjoining wall to stop it keeling over at the bottom. The gap between the bed and rounded shelf attached to the cupboard looks wide enough to squeeze past, but it was probably easier and quicker going via the landing from the other bedrooms if anything was amiss. Photos of the Box room should exist, but only those with access to them know if it was empty or full of junk.
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There was a step down from the twins' room into the Box room and Daniel's bed was away from the adjoining wall to stop it keeling over at the bottom. The gap between the bed and rounded shelf attached to the cupboard looks wide enough to squeeze past, but it was probably easier and quicker going via the landing from the other bedrooms if anything was amiss. Photos of the Box room should exist, but only those with access to them know if it was empty or full of junk.
Thank you Myster. I will have a rummage around and see what I can find out about that particular box room.
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I take it that the love-in in Dur-ham which was called off is now on again? ?{)(**
Pointless even trying to be civil. - I don't mind banter but when you can't get passed 3 or four posts without a dig in respect to past BS, it just gets old and very, very boring.
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Thank you Myster. I will have a rummage around and see what I can find out about that particular box room.
I've read through the raid team stats AGAIN from this forums library and the only mention of the box room between the main bedroom and twins room appear to be the following:
"Having searched this room [main room] and a small lobby attached to it we moved across the landing into another bedroom which appeared to be Sheila BAMBER'S room".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
"I also saw a connecting door in the right hand corner of the room"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=156.0;attach=98
Pity they dont make it crystal clear whether or not the doors were open or closed.
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I'm sure I have read some blood was found on the stairs but couldnt be certain if a) I read it and b) how reliable it was if I did read it - I dont think it was in any official doc.
I dont think it would be possible for blood to fling that far from June. Also my understanding is that once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the potential for spatter from other wounds can be affected by, for example, the lowering of blood pressure caused by first (or subseqent) gunshot wound(s).
NB sustained gunshot wounds closer to DRH/49 than June did (I think).
A crime scene reconstruction could potentially answer these questions.
It appears that cartridge case ejection patterns are not that reliable:
http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/7104
Long ago on Blue we had the discussion and I drew a GENERAL area of where the shooter was an how the shooter would have been aiming based on the shell locations. You need to know if it would hit the walls/headboard and ricochet because that matters. But in general based on the ejection patter to the right and forward you get something like this (and the bullet that grazed him may have ricocheted as well so it not particularly useful) the red reflects where the bullet would be headed while the blue represents where the shell would be headed. It's crude because it simply is to illustrate a general concept. I didn't try to make it perfectly to scale.
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Long ago on Blue we had the discussion and I drew a GENERAL area of where the shooter was an how the shooter would have been aiming based on the shell locations. You need to know if it would hit the walls/headboard and ricochet because that matters. But in general based on the ejection patter to the right and forward you get something like this (and the bullet that grazed him may have ricocheted as well so it not particularly useful) the red reflects where the bullet would be headed while the blue represents where the shell would be headed. It's crude because it simply is to illustrate a general concept. I didn't try to make it perfectly to scale.
None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two small spots of bloood were found on the landing, along with further blood on the stairs and a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor away where NB was found. I'm not sure if this blood was analysed but I haven't seen any results.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs. 2 entry wounds to his face and 2 entry wounds to the back of his shoulder and elbow. If NB was in the main bedroom how did the perp manage to fire two gunshot wounds to NB's face but allow NB to escape onto the landing where the perp fired a further 2 shots as NB fled along the landing and down the stairs?
I am certain a SoC reconstruction will show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and as NB appeared at the door, probably coming from the kitchen having called JB, he sustained the 2 gunshot wounds to his face. As he turned and fled along the landing and down the stairs he sustained two further shots to the back of his shoulder and elbow.
Whose bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop? Was NB attempting to finish the call or dial 999, although we know he was incapable of purposeful talk from the facial injuries, or to take possession of the ammo on the worktop to prevent the perp from reloading? Or was in he in pain and shock from the injuries and just stumbling around?
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None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two small spots of bloood were found on the landing, along with further blood on the stairs and a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor away where NB was found. I'm not sure if this blood was analysed but I haven't seen any results.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs. 2 entry wounds to his face and 2 entry wounds to the back of his shoulder and elbow. If NB was in the main bedroom how did the perp manage to fire two gunshot wounds to NB's face but allow NB to escape onto the landing where the perp fired a further 2 shots as NB fled along the landing and down the stairs?
I am certain a SoC reconstruction will show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and as NB appeared at the door, probably coming from the kitchen having called JB, he sustained the 2 gunshot wounds to his face. As he turned and fled along the landing and down the stairs he sustained two further shots to the back of his shoulder and elbow.
Whose bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop? Was NB attempting to finish the call or dial 999, although we know he was incapable of purposeful talk from the facial injuries, or to take possession of the ammo on the worktop to prevent the perp from reloading? Or was in he in pain and shock from the injuries and just stumbling around?
Wasn't sure what you meant in paragraph three at first. Wondered how could Neville be phoning Bamber when Bamber's upstairs shooting June.
Then I realised you were referring to Sheila as the shooter.
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Wasn't sure what you meant in paragraph three at first. Wondered how could Neville be phoning Bamber when Bamber's upstairs shooting June.
Then I realised you were referring to Sheila as the shooter.
Yes quite the diplomat!
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None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two small spots of bloood were found on the landing, along with further blood on the stairs and a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor away where NB was found. I'm not sure if this blood was analysed but I haven't seen any results.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs. 2 entry wounds to his face and 2 entry wounds to the back of his shoulder and elbow. If NB was in the main bedroom how did the perp manage to fire two gunshot wounds to NB's face but allow NB to escape onto the landing where the perp fired a further 2 shots as NB fled along the landing and down the stairs?
I am certain a SoC reconstruction will show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and as NB appeared at the door, probably coming from the kitchen having called JB, he sustained the 2 gunshot wounds to his face. As he turned and fled along the landing and down the stairs he sustained two further shots to the back of his shoulder and elbow.
Whose bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop? Was NB attempting to finish the call or dial 999, although we know he was incapable of purposeful talk from the facial injuries, or to take possession of the ammo on the worktop to prevent the perp from reloading? Or was in he in pain and shock from the injuries and just stumbling around?
There's a diagram on Blue which I think was drawn up by the pathologist to show the position of NB's wounds. It appears in the following vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMUrBhYpduY&feature=youtu.be&t=48s
You need to pause it at 48 seconds to take a detailed look.
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There's a diagram on Blue which I think was drawn up by the pathologist to show the position of NB's wounds. It appears in the following vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMUrBhYpduY&feature=youtu.be&t=48s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMUrBhYpduY&feature=youtu.be&t=48s)
You need to pause it at 48 seconds to take a detailed look.
Not sure what the red dot is for unless it marks where bullet no 7 didn't fully penetrate.
I posted a still from that video ages ago, but here it is again...
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Are they supposed to be numbered in the order the shots were fired ?
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Are they supposed to be numbered in the order the shots were fired ?
No definitely not. It looks like they are numbered in order of severity. The diagram goes hand and hand with this doc:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.msg2230#msg2230
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Are they supposed to be numbered in the order the shots were fired ?
As Holly just said...
No... they just refer to the bullet numbers with damage caused by them noted by the pathologist in his statements. 1 to 4 to the head were the final ones delivered in the kitchen, whereas 5 to 8 were received upstairs.
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Not sure what the red dot is for unless it marks where bullet no 7 didn't fully penetrate.
I posted a still from that video ages ago, but here it is again...
Oh Myster thank you so much 8**8:/: You are so knowledgeable on IT, photography and audio.
I think the red dot might represent the fact that bullet fragments were seen radiologically but not at post mortem? That's the only difference I can see.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726
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Oh Myster thank you so much 8**8:/: You are so knowledgeable on IT, photography and audio.
I think the red dot might represent the fact that bullet fragments were seen radiologically but not at post mortem? That's the only difference I can see.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726
No I've got that wrong as 8 is the wound where bullet fragments could be seen radiologically but not at post mortem. Don't know what the red dot signifies &%+((£
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As Holly just said...
No... they just refer to the bullet numbers with damage caused by them noted by the pathologist in his statements. 1 to 4 to the head were the final ones delivered in the kitchen, whereas 5 to 8 were received upstairs.
Thought not. Why would Bamber shoot a beaten and probably dead Neville in the arm.
The back and arm shots must have been while Neville was moving.
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Thought not. Why would Bamber shoot a beaten and probably dead Neville in the arm.
The back and arm shots must have been while Neville was moving.
1 - 4 inclusive were fired in the kitchen as per pathologist and casings
5 - 8 inclusive were fired upstairs as per casings.
Point is 5 and 6 were fired at NB's front and 7 and 8 at his back. If NB was in the main bedroom when the perp entered from the landing and fired 5 and 6 at NB's front how did NB exit past the perp and how did he sustain 7 and 8 when his back was turned?
I can only think the perp was in the main bedroom when NB appeared at the main bedroom doorway from the landing. The perp fired 5 and 6. NB turned along the landing and down the stairs where he sustained 5 and 6.
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1 - 4 inclusive were fired in the kitchen as per pathologist and casings
5 - 8 inclusive were fired upstairs as per casings.
Point is 5 and 6 were fired at NB's front and 7 and 8 at his back. If NB was in the main bedroom when the perp entered from the landing and fired 5 and 6 at NB's front how did NB exit past the perp and how did he sustain 7 and 8 when his back was turned?
I can only think the perp was in the main bedroom when NB appeared at the main bedroom doorway from the landing. The perp fired 5 and 6. NB turned along the landing and down the stairs where he sustained 5 and 6.
Meant to say 7 and 8. Either everyone knew what I meant or noone reads my posts 8)><(
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Deffo the latter. ?{)(**
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I've looked again at the diagram of NB's injuries and the pathologist report in posts #78 and #80 along with the layout of WHF. The pathologist states wounds 5 and 6 were fired at an angle of 20 degrees downward from the horizontal position. According to the layout of WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
2 steps precede the main bedroom so if the perp was standing just outside the main bedroom door and NB just below the 2 steps this could account for the angle of the shot? Two casings were found just outside the bedroom door.
I've yet to figure out the casings. Only 2 were found just outside the bedroom door. Does the deflector plate definitely push them along a path? I doubt there's much potential for ricochet for H&S ie if the force was substantial and the path unclear it could present a danger?
Only 3 casings were found in the kitchen although it is thought NB sustained wounds 1 -4 incl there. I believe an additional casing was found in the bedroom? Or was it the stairs?
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Myster do you know if the rifle was fitted with a deflector plate by the manufacturers as standard or is it an optional add-on?
http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US7493720
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Can anyone see a deflector plate?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173626#msg173626
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Myster do you know if the rifle was fitted with a deflector plate by the manufacturers as standard or is it an optional add-on?
http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US7493720 (http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US7493720)
Definitely fitted as standard - part no. 28, deflector. Most likely to prevent stray red-hot casings jumping backwards and landing on the the rifleman, or on anyone standing to his immediate right nearby.
I'll come back to your earlier questions later as am tied up at the mo... unless someone answers in the meantime.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Can anyone see a deflector plate?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173626#msg173626 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173626#msg173626)
That's not the original Anschutz, because the wooden stock isn't damaged where his right hand is holding. If you have Murder Casebook 7, there's an identical smaller but clearer picture on page 240, where it's easier to make out the deflector.
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Definitely fitted as standard - part no. 28, deflector. Most likely to prevent stray red-hot casings jumping backwards and landing on the the rifleman, or on anyone standing to his immediate right nearby.
I'll come back to your earlier questions later as am tied up at the mo... unless someone answers in the meantime.
Thanks. But was if fitted as standard when it was purchased in Nov '84?
I don't really understand the following:
http://www.shootingandscuba.co.uk/store/22lr-anschutz-525-semi-auto-rifle
So dependent on which hand the shooter uses will determine whether the casing ejects slightly to the right or directly above?
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Also just noticed there's a single trigger and double trigger but it seems this is to do with accuracy of shot as opposed to making the thing more susceptible to firing twice as the term might imply to someone like myself who knows sweet fa about guns.
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Thanks. But was if fitted as standard when it was purchased in Nov '84?
I don't really understand the following:
http://www.shootingandscuba.co.uk/store/22lr-anschutz-525-semi-auto-rifle (http://www.shootingandscuba.co.uk/store/22lr-anschutz-525-semi-auto-rifle)
So dependent on which hand the shooter uses will determine whether the casing ejects slightly to the right or directly above?
The photo of Det Con Whiddon shows him holding the actual murder weapon with deflector plate, so yes it was fitted in '85.
It's self-explanatory. Whether the shooter is left or right handed, using either shoulder to rest the butt end, the deflector forces the ejected shell forward and away to the right of him or her.
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Also just noticed there's a single trigger and double trigger but it seems this is to do with accuracy of shot as opposed to making the thing more susceptible to firing twice as the term might imply to someone like myself who knows sweet fa about guns.
No, it's only a single-triggered rifle. The assembled single trigger mechanism, part no.50, is shown disassembled in the exploded view below it, parts 52 to 70
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I've looked again at the diagram of NB's injuries and the pathologist report in posts #78 and #80 along with the layout of WHF. The pathologist states wounds 5 and 6 were fired at an angle of 20 degrees downward from the horizontal position. According to the layout of WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)
2 steps precede the main bedroom so if the perp was standing just outside the main bedroom door and NB just below the 2 steps this could account for the angle of the shot? Two casings were found just outside the bedroom door.
I've yet to figure out the casings. Only 2 were found just outside the bedroom door. Does the deflector plate definitely push them along a path? I doubt there's much potential for ricochet for H&S ie if the force was substantial and the path unclear it could present a danger?
Only 3 casings were found in the kitchen although it is thought NB sustained wounds 1 -4 incl there. I believe an additional casing was found in the bedroom? Or was it the stairs?
As you say, it's possible that Nevill could have been shot in the shoulder and elbow as he was forced or tried to escape downstairs, although the same might have happened after being shot in the jaw and mouth when getting out of bed. His first reaction must have been to put his hand(s) up to the mouth in shock and to stem the blood flow. Once up, he might then have tried to avoid further shots by turning away to his right, stumbling to the floor perhaps on his knees when he received shots 7 and 8 to shoulder and elbow from behind. Hence the downward trajectory of the two bullets.
If the perp was standing outside the bedroom door firing shots 7 and 8 at Nevill below on the first couple of steps or lower landing, the shells are more likely to have ended up further down on the main flight and could even have tumbled into the main hall, instead of remaining on the landing area.
Those two shells found outside the bedroom were attributed to June, perhaps the final shots to her head. Why?... maybe there was a way of matching those casings to bullets recovered at autopsy. Or perhaps the firearms expert recreated the scene by imagining where the shells would land if the shots were delivered as she was lying on the floor.
According to the police and also mentioned by CAL, the missing fourth casing could have been carried upstairs because it was "stovepipe" jammed in the ejector mechanism, and was only freed by Bamber when he reached the upper landing. So it might have been one of those found there.
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None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two small spots of bloood were found on the landing, along with further blood on the stairs and a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor away where NB was found. I'm not sure if this blood was analysed but I haven't seen any results.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs. 2 entry wounds to his face and 2 entry wounds to the back of his shoulder and elbow. If NB was in the main bedroom how did the perp manage to fire two gunshot wounds to NB's face but allow NB to escape onto the landing where the perp fired a further 2 shots as NB fled along the landing and down the stairs?
I am certain a SoC reconstruction will show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and as NB appeared at the door, probably coming from the kitchen having called JB, he sustained the 2 gunshot wounds to his face. As he turned and fled along the landing and down the stairs he sustained two further shots to the back of his shoulder and elbow.
Whose bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop? Was NB attempting to finish the call or dial 999, although we know he was incapable of purposeful talk from the facial injuries, or to take possession of the ammo on the worktop to prevent the perp from reloading? Or was in he in pain and shock from the injuries and just stumbling around?
1) Police didn't test all potential blood in the bedroom so you have no way to say Nevill's blood wasn't there. Did they check the bedding to test and make sure there was none of his blood? No! Did they test every drop on the rugs? NO! They cut out 2 pieces of carpet and tested 5 drops on each piece.
2) Nevill was wearing clothes which soak up blood and inhibit dripping. The graze wound wound not result in blood dripping nor would the arm wound. The only wounds that might were his 2 face wounds and it doesn't mean they did just because they could. The only blood know to be Sheila's was the pool of blood that leaked after she was dead and moved flat. No drops were tied to her despite being shot on the floor.
The shell casings and bullet that grazed Nevill wer ein the bedroom because that is where he was shot initially.
Because he was shot their initially along with June the gun was empty and that is the only reason that things proceeded to the kitchen. If Jeremy had more bullets in the gun he would have continued to shoot Nevill hoping to kill him there. He clearly hoped the 4 shots would kill Nevill there he didn't expect them to be insufficient.
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1) Police didn't test all potential blood in the bedroom so you have no way to say Nevill's blood wasn't there. Did they check the bedding to test and make sure there was none of his blood? No! Did they test every drop on the rugs? NO! They cut out 2 pieces of carpet and tested 5 drops on each piece.
2) Nevill was wearing clothes which soak up blood and inhibit dripping. The graze wound wound not result in blood dripping nor would the arm wound. The only wounds that might were his 2 face wounds and it doesn't mean they did just because they could. The only blood know to be Sheila's was the pool of blood that leaked after she was dead and moved flat. No drops were tied to her despite being shot on the floor.
The shell casings and bullet that grazed Nevill wer ein the bedroom because that is where he was shot initially.
Because he was shot their initially along with June the gun was empty and that is the only reason that things proceeded to the kitchen. If Jeremy had more bullets in the gun he would have continued to shoot Nevill hoping to kill him there. He clearly hoped the 4 shots would kill Nevill there he didn't expect them to be insufficient.
1. The CoA doc states five carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom. Although other docs refer to two carpet samples taken from the main bedroom. Perhaps a total of 5 areas were tested across two carpet samples. Anyway the test results based on grouping only showed it was June's blood:
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.
DC Hammersley's trial testimony confirms the bed was stripped and nothing of evidential value remained:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223
Although I dont think I've seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding (excl June's pillow and pillowcase) or test results even if negative.
Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49. Again I havent seen any results even if negative.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
2. The pathologist makes clear that blood loss from the two facial shots would be sustantial as "the regions injured have a rich blood supply":
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726
I'm sure there's an expert somewhere that will be able to say how long it will take for blood from the injuries sustained to fall to the ground with the victim standing.
If NB was shot his side of the bed then why were were none of the cartridges found there? Cartridges were found close to SC and June? I'm not an expert on cartridge ejection patterns. All I can say is that SC and June are surrounded by the empty cartridges that fired the bullets they were shot with and in the locations they were shot in.
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1. The CoA doc states five carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom. Although other docs refer to two carpet samples taken from the main bedroom. Perhaps a total of 5 areas were tested across two carpet samples. Anyway the test results based on grouping only showed it was June's blood:
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.
DC Hammersley's trial testimony confirms the bed was stripped and nothing of evidential value remained:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223
Although I dont think I've seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding (excl June's pillow and pillowcase) or test results even if negative.
Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49. Again I havent seen any results even if negative.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
2. The pathologist makes clear that blood loss from the two facial shots would be sustantial as "the regions injured have a rich blood supply":
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726
I'm sure there's an expert somewhere that will be able to say how long it will take for blood from the injuries sustained to fall to the ground with the victim standing.
If NB was shot his side of the bed then why were were none of the cartridges found there? Cartridges were found close to SC and June? I'm not an expert on cartridge ejection patterns. All I can say is that SC and June are surrounded by the empty cartridges that fired the bullets they were shot with and in the locations they were shot in.
All you did was ignore the facts. FACT they cut out 2 carpet samples and tested 5 drops from each. They did NOT test ANY of the other blood for type testing. Thus you have NO WAY TO KNOW whether any drops of blood on the bedding or floor belonged to Nevill. You only know that the 10 drops they tested were not Nevill's. Ther eis a HUGE difference between:
Testing all the blood and determining none of it was Nevill's and testing only a small number of the blood stains and determining none of those tested were Nevilll's. The former would permit saying none of Nevill's blood was in the room the latter only permits saying none of the blood tested was Nevill's.
You completely ignored that he could have been shot in the room without dripping his blood anywhere. This is a biggy because you keep making an erroneous assertion. Your argument is built around the false notion that if he was shot there his blood would have to have been left there which is false. After a short while his mouth probably filled with blood and if he opened his mouth blood would leak out. This is when blood could fall to the floor.
So you take the false premise his blood would have to be in the bedroom if he was shot there and then the false premise that none of his blood was in the bedroom and this you say refutes the casings and bullet that grazed him were fire din the bedroom where they were found. NONSENSE.
I have already pointed out to you and even provided a drawing showing the direction the casings would go if the killer was at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill as he was sitting on the bed getting up. The casings would eject onto June's side of the bed because they eject to the right and her side of the bed was to the right. There was one such casing on the bed. There may have been others that were knocked off the bed when June got up. They also could have bounced off the headboard or bed onto the floor because it is easy for casings to ricochet.
Sheila was shot while seated on the floor. The casings ricocheted off something to land where they did. It was a confined area where they could bounce off the side of the bed instead of being able to fly over the bed because the ejection port was lower than the bed. There were walls in close proximity as well for them to bounce off of. This makes their position not particularly useful in assessing exactly where she was when shot. We just know she was in that confined area seated when shot then moved flat subsequently.
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All you did was ignore the facts. FACT they cut out 2 carpet samples and tested 5 drops from each. They did NOT test ANY of the other blood for type testing. Thus you have NO WAY TO KNOW whether any drops of blood on the bedding or floor belonged to Nevill. You only know that the 10 drops they tested were not Nevill's. Ther eis a HUGE difference between:
Testing all the blood and determining none of it was Nevill's and testing only a small number of the blood stains and determining none of those tested were Nevilll's. The former would permit saying none of Nevill's blood was in the room the latter only permits saying none of the blood tested was Nevill's.
You completely ignored that he could have been shot in the room without dripping his blood anywhere. This is a biggy because you keep making an erroneous assertion. Your argument is built around the false notion that if he was shot there his blood would have to have been left there which is false. After a short while his mouth probably filled with blood and if he opened his mouth blood would leak out. This is when blood could fall to the floor.
So you take the false premise his blood would have to be in the bedroom if he was shot there and then the false premise that none of his blood was in the bedroom and this you say refutes the casings and bullet that grazed him were fire din the bedroom where they were found. NONSENSE.
I have already pointed out to you and even provided a drawing showing the direction the casings would go if the killer was at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill as he was sitting on the bed getting up. The casings would eject onto June's side of the bed because they eject to the right and her side of the bed was to the right. There was one such casing on the bed. There may have been others that were knocked off the bed when June got up. They also could have bounced off the headboard or bed onto the floor because it is easy for casings to ricochet.
Sheila was shot while seated on the floor. The casings ricocheted off something to land where they did. It was a confined area where they could bounce off the side of the bed instead of being able to fly over the bed because the ejection port was lower than the bed. There were walls in close proximity as well for them to bounce off of. This makes their position not particularly useful in assessing exactly where she was when shot. We just know she was in that confined area seated when shot then moved flat subsequently.
There's no evidence that NB was shot in the bedroom in terms of blood, casings and trajectory of shots. The facial shots were fired at an angle of 20 degrees from the horizontal. The shoulder shot was also downwards. No knowledge of the trajectory of the elbow shot. NB was 6' 4". JB was around 6"and SC around 5' 7". The trajectory of shots can be explained if NB was positioned lower than the shooter ie on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the main bedroom.
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There's no evidence that NB was shot in the bedroom in terms of blood, casings and trajectory of shots. The facial shots were fired at an angle of 20 degrees from the horizontal. The shoulder shot was also downwards. No knowledge of the trajectory of the elbow shot. NB was 6' 4". JB was around 6"and SC around 5' 7". The trajectory of shots can be explained if NB was positioned lower than the shooter ie on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the main bedroom.
This is a perfect example of how you ignore evidence. 13 casings were in the bedroom. June suffered 7 shots and Sheila 2 so that means 4 more casings than wounds they suffered. These 4 relate to 4 wounds Nevill suffered. This is evidence proving he was shot in the bedroom. So is the fact that the bullet that grazed Nevill was found int he bedroom. Saying tha tthis evidence doesn't support him being shot there is a lie. There didn't have to be any blood evidence from Nevill in the bedroom in orde rfor him to be shot there so a lack of blood would not disprove he was shot there. but they didn't test all the blood so you don't know if any of his blood was there or not.
If he was shot going down the stairs then the shots would have been to his back. All 4 were to his left side which woudl be facing the wall as he walked down. He was shot in his left profile. The killer was looking at his left side as the killer fired. Was the killer shooting through the wall?
Shooting at him on the stairs would result int he casings being down at the bottom of the stairs. Were there any? No. There was a single casing in the hall it was against the wall and could not get in that position by any other means than being carried there. It was carried from the kitchen.
You make up your own things instead of following the evidence. Making up things gives you false hope, I prefer to be accurate and a realist.
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This is a perfect example of how you ignore evidence. 13 casings were in the bedroom. June suffered 7 shots and Sheila 2 so that means 4 more casings than wounds they suffered. These 4 relate to 4 wounds Nevill suffered. This is evidence proving he was shot in the bedroom. So is the fact that the bullet that grazed Nevill was found int he bedroom. Saying tha tthis evidence doesn't support him being shot there is a lie. There didn't have to be any blood evidence from Nevill in the bedroom in orde rfor him to be shot there so a lack of blood would not disprove he was shot there. but they didn't test all the blood so you don't know if any of his blood was there or not.
If he was shot going down the stairs then the shots would have been to his back. All 4 were to his left side which woudl be facing the wall as he walked down. He was shot in his left profile. The killer was looking at his left side as the killer fired. Was the killer shooting through the wall?
Shooting at him on the stairs would result int he casings being down at the bottom of the stairs. Were there any? No. There was a single casing in the hall it was against the wall and could not get in that position by any other means than being carried there. It was carried from the kitchen.
You make up your own things instead of following the evidence. Making up things gives you false hope, I prefer to be accurate and a realist.
How come your casings are allowed to ricochet but mine aren't? And, and the police are allowed to innocently transfer your casings under their boots but again this isn't allowed with mine?
Emoticon required: girl with pigtails and hands on hips with cross expression on face.
The two facial wounds NB sustained were to the front of his face not to the side.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5885
If the perp was in the main bedroom and NB was was just below the two steps preceding the main bedroom entrance the ejection port could still eject the cartridges within the bedroom. Perp and victim are separated by the distance between the ejection port and end of barrel and end of barrel and victim. If NB then turned and fled down the stairs with the perp moving down the stairs immediately preceding the main entrance and perp and victim facing down the main staircase this could account for the shots to NB's elbow and shoulder and the casing on the metal bar in the main bedroom and the other casing on the landing ie the casings eject to the right.
I'll draw a little diagram and scan it but not now.
It appears cartridge (casing) ejection patterns are not that reliable but as Myster has pointed out the rifle had a deflection plate so this might narrow it down compared with rifles without a deflection plate. As far as I can see three factors need to stack up: blood, casings (but less reliable) and trajectory of shots. The trajectory of shots is only slightly downwards. It doesn't pan out with NB sitting on bed or crouching on floor. NB was taller than JB and SC.
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What casing and what metal bar?
If you mean DRH13 then that ain't no metal bar, but a plan view of the open bedroom door.
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Actually it's a very poor drawing and hopelessly out of scale... but then police aren't architeks.
So on this ocasion I'll forgive you, but don't do it again, mind.
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See what happens when it's past my bedtime... spelling goes to pot.
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What casing and what metal bar?
If you mean DRH13 then that ain't no metal bar, but a plan view of the open bedroom door.
There was a metal transition plate between the bedroom rug and hall rug. The casing was right inside the bedroom door.
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There was a metal transition plate between the bedroom rug and hall rug. The casing was right inside the bedroom door.
Aah, OK. It sounded as though Holly meant a solid steel bar, such as a jemmy, that she thought Nevill might have been beaten with.
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Aah, OK. It sounded as though Holly meant a solid steel bar, such as a jemmy, that she thought Nevill might have been beaten with.
LMAO
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How come your casings are allowed to ricochet but mine aren't? And, and the police are allowed to innocently transfer your casings under their boots but again this isn't allowed with mine?
Emoticon required: girl with pigtails and hands on hips with cross expression on face.
The two facial wounds NB sustained were to the front of his face not to the side.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5885
If the perp was in the main bedroom and NB was was just below the two steps preceding the main bedroom entrance the ejection port could still eject the cartridges within the bedroom. Perp and victim are separated by the distance between the ejection port and end of barrel and end of barrel and victim. If NB then turned and fled down the stairs with the perp moving down the stairs immediately preceding the main entrance and perp and victim facing down the main staircase this could account for the shots to NB's elbow and shoulder and the casing on the metal bar in the main bedroom and the other casing on the landing ie the casings eject to the right.
I'll draw a little diagram and scan it but not now.
It appears cartridge (casing) ejection patterns are not that reliable but as Myster has pointed out the rifle had a deflection plate so this might narrow it down compared with rifles without a deflection plate. As far as I can see three factors need to stack up: blood, casings (but less reliable) and trajectory of shots. The trajectory of shots is only slightly downwards. It doesn't pan out with NB sitting on bed or crouching on floor. NB was taller than JB and SC.
So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.
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So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.
Have you got your tin hat on, ready? 8)-)))
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I've never thought the children were shot first. Small children often sleep through a lot of noise eg house parties.
It takes a real monster to shoot two young children in the head as they sleep. If ever there was a reason to bring back capital punishment, that is it.
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So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.
Some of the casings in the master bedroom relate to Nev's injuries so given the direction the rifle was pointed (evidenced by the position of said casings) then he had to have been in the bedroom. I just love forensics because it reveals so much.
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So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.
The bullet that grazed Nevill was int he bedroom as well. It could not be fired at him while he was in the hall and yet turn around and go back in the bedroom. Moreover the casings were not along the side of the room with the chair which is where they would eject if the gun were aimed out the door. The casings were in position where they would be if the killer were shooting at Nevill as he was sitting in bed or sitting on the bed. Your way of thinking is as stupid and baseless as those you attack on blue daily. It 's not evidence based a tall you simply disregard the evidence and logic. No way was Sheila in bed with her mother she was killed after her parents. There is no reason in the world for her to sleep with her mother and your opinion that the shoes in her room were Nevill's is not in the least bit credible either. Neither police nor the family who cleaned up that room suggest Nevill's slippers were found there. You simply decided they were despite women shoes that look like that exist and then crafting a wild conspiracy around it. It's not one of your finer moments.
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What casing and what metal bar?
If you mean DRH13 then that ain't no metal bar, but a plan view of the open bedroom door.
Sorry I should have said "metal stip" also known as carpet gripper or do the bits dividing rooms have a different name...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=203
DRH13 was on the "metal strip" dividing landing and main bedroom.
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So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4142.msg171018.html#msg171018
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It takes a real monster to shoot two young children in the head as they sleep. If ever there was a reason to bring back capital punishment, that is it.
Yes I agree IF JB was responsible he is indeed a monster. I don't believe in capital punishment as I think whole life tariffs are a greater punishment for the most serious of crimes. Shipman and West committed suicide. Brady and Huntley attempted suicide. Did they struggle to come to terms with their crimes or was the prospect of facing life behind bars too unbearable? Maybe a combination of the two.
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Sorry I should have said "metal stip" also known as carpet gripper or do the bits dividing rooms have a different name...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=203 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=203)
DRH13 was on the "metal strip" dividing landing and main bedroom.
Yes, I know now what you meant after scipio pointed it out.
Usually called metal carpet plate, not carpet gripper. The latter, wooden strips with embedded sharp metal teeth are fitted underneath the carpet around the room perimeter, to grip it when stretched.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p44175?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=shF5jhR3U_dc&pcrid=66162905543&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=CIe3r8Gg2ckCFQ_gGwodMf8EAA (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p44175?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=shF5jhR3U_dc&pcrid=66162905543&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=CIe3r8Gg2ckCFQ_gGwodMf8EAA)
How's this drawing progressing?
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Yes, I know now what you meant after scipio pointed it out.
Usually called metal carpet plate, not carpet gripper. The latter, wooden strips with embedded sharp metal teeth are fitted underneath the carpet around the room perimeter, to grip it when stretched.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p44175?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=shF5jhR3U_dc&pcrid=66162905543&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=CIe3r8Gg2ckCFQ_gGwodMf8EAA (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p44175?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=shF5jhR3U_dc&pcrid=66162905543&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=CIe3r8Gg2ckCFQ_gGwodMf8EAA)
How's this drawing progressing?
That was my one can of Carlsberg Special Brew talking!
I will attempt to cobble something together. Can you confirm for me please if there are about 3 stairs at an angle on staircase S1? Also there's a photo somewhere showing the actual staircase from the hall. I would like to see that to check how the banisters are set out. I've had a look for it but unable to locate.
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Sorry I should have said "metal stip" also known as carpet gripper or do the bits dividing rooms have a different name...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=203
DRH13 was on the "metal strip" dividing landing and main bedroom.
Hardware stores call it a transition plate usually.
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That was my one can of Carlsberg Special Brew talking!
I will attempt to cobble something together. Can you confirm for me please if there are about 3 stairs at an angle on staircase S1? Also there's a photo somewhere showing the actual staircase from the hall. I would like to see that to check how the banisters are set out. I've had a look for it but unable to locate.
I haven't found the photo I was looking for but found this one and it appears the scale on the layout is out quite a bit out based on the photo and the curve of the handrail:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=1971
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
What I'm trying to say is that the layout gives the impression there's quite a bit of space between the turn of the stairs and the two stairs leading to the main bedroom. Whereas the photo seems to reduce this to virtually nothing.
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That was my one can of Carlsberg Special Brew talking!
I will attempt to cobble something together. Can you confirm for me please if there are about 3 stairs at an angle on staircase S1? Also there's a photo somewhere showing the actual staircase from the hall. I would like to see that to check how the banisters are set out. I've had a look for it but unable to locate.
The area of the house with the master bedroom is higher than the part that has the hallway that had the room the boys were in, the bathroom, office etc. So from the bottom floor you go up the stairs and reach a landing. If you turn to your left and walk as far as you can on that landing then you are faced on you right with a single step. If you go that way you end up in the hallway with the boy's room etc attached. If you go left you walk up a few more stairs then are in the hallway with the master bedroom. So if you walk down the few stairs you are on the landing. If you walk straight you go into the hall. If you turn right you can walk all the way to the end of the landing and then turn right again to go down the stairs to the bottom floor of the house.
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That was my one can of Carlsberg Special Brew talking!
I will attempt to cobble something together. Can you confirm for me please if there are about 3 stairs at an angle on staircase S1? Also there's a photo somewhere showing the actual staircase from the hall. I would like to see that to check how the banisters are set out. I've had a look for it but unable to locate.
Yes, there are two or three winders (as they are known) on the main stair, similar to those at the bottom of the office staircase.
This blurry hall photo is the only one I've seen...
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Have you got your tin hat on, ready? 8)-)))
Nah, will a wooden spoon do? ?{)(** - Just joking I come in peace 8((()*/
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Nah, will a wooden spoon do? ?{)(** - Just joking I come in peace 8((()*/
Seems blue is fast becoming the Anti-Jeremy Bamber Forum these days, now that you, APRIL, maggie, etc. have seen the light and are letting rip.
Can't understand why it took so long. &%+((£
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Another photo which might be of use to you, Holly...
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Another photo which might be of use to you, Holly...
Thanks Myster.
I hope to have time today or tomorrow to cobble something together. I am probably the world's worst at drawing so I think it's best if I use a ruler and just stick to lines!
I dont think I've seen the photo above before. If I have I havent paid much attention to it. Now looking more closely it appears the bed contains 2 teddies whereas the other photo showing all the blood June's side appears to have 1 teddy only? Bizarrely they look as though they are tucked in? Also what is that above the smaller teddy? It looks like a cloth fan made of bright colours?
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Thanks Myster.
I hope to have time today or tomorrow to cobble something together. I am probably the world's worst at drawing so I think it's best if I use a ruler and just stick to lines!
I dont think I've seen the photo above before. If I have I havent paid much attention to it. Now looking more closely it appears the bed contains 2 teddies whereas the other photo showing all the blood June's side appears to have 1 teddy only? Bizarrely they look as though they are tucked in? Also what is that above the smaller teddy? It looks like a cloth fan made of bright colours?
Don't go thinking I'm pushing you into drawing anything. If you were CAD savvy, Sketchup Make might have been easier to use than pencil and paper, but you need a powerful PC and three button mouse with scroll wheel rather than a humble laptop and touchpad. And it takes time to learn the program.
There are two Teddies, one smaller than the other... in both photos. The smaller one is wearing a striped nightcap.
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Don't go thinking I'm pushing you into drawing anything. If you were CAD savvy, Sketchup Make might have been easier to use than pencil and paper, but you need a powerful PC and three button mouse with scroll wheel rather than a humble laptop and touchpad. And it takes time to learn the program.
There are two Teddies, one smaller than the other... in both photos. The smaller one is wearing a striped nightcap.
Not at all can't wait to see how my drawing/theory stands up to scrutiny ?>)()< I'm not remotely savvy with any of those things. I'm better sticking to paper, pen and ruler! Then scanning and uploading. It might take me a day or two until I get to something that anyone will even recongnise!
I thought I was observant but obviously not as I've spent ages agonising over that photo and not noticed the smaller teddy.
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There's another photo of the Landing here. What's that blue cloth item hanging over the banister rail?
They look like hose or leggings?
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There's another photo of the Landing here. What's that blue cloth item hanging over the banister rail?
They look like hose or leggings?
No I think it might be a halter neck top.
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No I think it might be a halter neck top.
Maybe you're right, but the visible part doesn't look big enough to fit the upper body without being overly stretched, and on the other side of the banister rail they appear to be long as if they're the stocking part of a pair of tights. They go halfway down the spindles.
Just noticed June's left hand in the doorway.
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Maybe you're right, but the visible part doesn't look big enough to fit the upper body without being overly stretched, and on the other side of the banister rail they appear to be long as if they're the stocking part of a pair of tights. They go halfway down the spindles.
Just noticed June's left hand in the doorway.
It doesn't look right for leggings or hose especially around the crotch area!
If it's a halter neck the body will fit like a boob tube with the straps wide at the top and a long tie at the back. A combination of the following maybe.
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Maybe you're right, but the visible part doesn't look big enough to fit the upper body without being overly stretched, and on the other side of the banister rail they appear to be long as if they're the stocking part of a pair of tights. They go halfway down the spindles.
Just noticed June's left hand in the doorway.
Is that definitely June's hand?
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Is that definitely June's hand?
I'm positive. Maybe others think the same?
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It doesn't look right for leggings or hose especially around the crotch area!
If it's a halter neck the body will fit like a boob tube with the straps wide at the top and a long tie at the back. A combination of the following maybe.
I'll bow to your superior knowledge on this occasion... before I dig myself any deeper!
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I'm positive. Maybe others think the same?
Yes, it's June's hand.
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I'll bow to your superior knowledge on this occasion... before I dig myself any deeper!
I don't think I've seen that photo before but I've heard about leggings on the banisters. In fact I think it might state that in CAL's book too.
AE seems to refer to it as a belt?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3102
It def looks like a halter neck top to me. What do you think puglove? Why would it be there and not with the rest of SC's clothes in her room? Maybe she washed it in part or full and left it there to dry. Or maybe it belonged to Regina Pargeter (or one of her daughters but think it looks too big for a young girl) who stayed a few days earlier but surely June or Jean Boutell would put it away and not just leave it hanging about.
There seem to be a number of objects in unusual places:
- tampon applicator (or part of) in lounge
- teddies in NB and June's bed
- halter neck top (?) hanging over banisters not altogether unusual and certainly a good place for drying something. That's the only reason I can think for leaving it there and not putting it with other clothes.
- feather thing on kitchen table, again perhaps not altogether unusual
- phone under magazines?
Then again perhaps if any of us were caught unaware we might have various objects in ususual places.
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How did it maintains its position and not fall down? All the weight is on one side? Unlesss as AE said the ends/ties had some triangle weighted end?
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I don't think I've seen that photo before but I've heard about leggings on the banisters. In fact I think it might state that in CAL's book too.
AE seems to refer to it as a belt?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3102 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3102)
It def looks like a halter neck top to me. What do you think puglove? Why would it be there and not with the rest of SC's clothes in her room? Maybe she washed it in part or full and left it there to dry. Or maybe it belonged to Regina Pargeter (or one of her daughters but think it looks too big for a young girl) who stayed a few days earlier but surely June or Jean Boutell would put it away and not just leave it hanging about.
There seem to be a number of objects in unusual places:
- tampon applicator (or part of) in lounge
- teddies in NB and June's bed
- halter neck top (?) hanging over banisters not altogether unusual and certainly a good place for drying something. That's the only reason I can think for leaving it there and not putting it with other clothes.
- feather thing on kitchen table, again perhaps not altogether unusual
- phone under magazines?
Then again perhaps if any of us were caught unaware we might have various objects in ususual places.
I thought you'd get around to plugging mooncups again sooner or later.
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From CAL's book:
Ann observed nothing amiss in the other upstairs rooms, but saw a thin belt with loose triangular type objects on both ends draped over the banister near Sheila’s room, which struck her as a little odd.
In a 23 July 2013 letter to the author Jeremy states: ‘The house was cleaned and tidied by Jean Bouttell and Ann many times in August/ September and they did not leave those socks there on the floor for five weeks so the police could seize them when they searched the house for a second time.’ Presumably the socks were put away and the police collected them. In the same letter, he writes of a pair of dark/ light blue tights seen draped over the banister on the upper landing, suggesting the tights had been used by police to wipe their hands, after which they had been rinsed out. But the tights were not wet; they are two-tone, with clearly defined stitching between the two colours.
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm.
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So I was right about them after all.
I seem to remember a photo taken from the master bedroom looking towards Sheila's door where you could see a belt on the banister rail.
I think the feathery item on the kitchen table was a fishing float?
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I thought you'd get around to plugging mooncups again sooner or later.
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From CAL's book:
Ann observed nothing amiss in the other upstairs rooms, but saw a thin belt with loose triangular type objects on both ends draped over the banister near Sheila’s room, which struck her as a little odd.
In a 23 July 2013 letter to the author Jeremy states: ‘The house was cleaned and tidied by Jean Bouttell and Ann many times in August/ September and they did not leave those socks there on the floor for five weeks so the police could seize them when they searched the house for a second time.’ Presumably the socks were put away and the police collected them. In the same letter, he writes of a pair of dark/ light blue tights seen draped over the banister on the upper landing, suggesting the tights had been used by police to wipe their hands, after which they had been rinsed out. But the tights were not wet; they are two-tone, with clearly defined stitching between the two colours.
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm.
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So I was right about them after all.
I seem to remember a photo taken from the master bedroom looking towards Sheila's door where you could see a belt on the banister rail.
I think the feathery item on the kitchen table was a fishing float?
I've just put the mooncup with the egg cups so it doesn't attraction attention! Dont think anyone will attempt to use it as such due to its stem.
The tights ? look out of proportion from crotch to waist. I'm not at all convinced that is what it is. Unless they are something like this. No idea what they look like from the front. Do they extend to cover the breasts? No idea. I'm still inclined to see it as a halter neck top. Why would June or SC put them there when they had their respective bedrooms? And it appears to me the weight is all on one side so how come they didn't slide off?
Have a little Google 'images of tights' and see what you think. To my eye the distance from crotch to waist are out of synch. I'll see ya on the forum next week then 8(0(*
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The more I look at it the less it looks like a pair of tights:
- It doesn't look two tone but two different colours made of different fabrics.
- Crinkled where the colours change indicating a different fabric. Tights are normally one fabric and seamless other than a seam down the back of stockings/tights.
- If tights the waist area (width) looks larger than the crotch/thighs area (width) and would usually be the other way around to prevent them falling down and getting the Norah Batty look. Unless they extend over the breasts but it doesn't look long enough for that.
Where's Scipio when we need him most...he's usually an authority on most things...Scipio where are thou...what do you know about ladies hosiery? Lots I bet 8(0(*
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Also can I see some stains down the middle and one slightly to the left as I am looking at it?
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Hmmm just asked three other females all of whom know nothing about the photo. 2 said tights - 1 said childrens tights. 1 said an apron! 1 male said a top.
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Hmmm just asked three other females all of whom know nothing about the photo. 2 said tights - 1 said childrens tights. 1 said an apron! 1 male said a top.
Holl, I think that they are either thin leggings or footless tights, like dance tights, and by the length of them, they belonged to Sheila.
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Geez... you don't half rabbit on! You're a mod now remember and should be interjecting with "TOPIC!", like Eleanor does.
Who would have thought that I'd ever believe anything Jeremy Bamber said... but for once I agree that they're tights. They look too flimsy and nylony to be a halter top.
Even when just washed they're not that heavy and the longer leg parts will balance out the waist part on the banister and it's an ideal place to dry anything in Summer - warm air rising from the hall below. I use it myself, although not for tights.
End of story... hopefully.
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Holl, I think that they are either thin leggings or footless tights, like dance tights, and by the length of them, they belonged to Sheila.
Aye Aye, Cap'n!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3nM2Ul4rLU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3nM2Ul4rLU)
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Aye Aye, Cap'n!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3nM2Ul4rLU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3nM2Ul4rLU)
Ho ho!! Get to work, Master Bates and Seaman Staines!
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Scipio if you're still around can I have your opinion please on this garment ie what is it?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
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Scipio if you're still around can I have your opinion please on this garment ie what is it?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
All I can tell is that it is black. Maybe it is some sort of leggings. The photo of June dead doesn't who it completely just what seems to have arms or legs.
(http://s2.postimg.org/mki535u3t/junecorpse.jpg)
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All I can tell is that it is black. Maybe it is some sort of leggings. The photo of June dead doesn't who it completely just what seems to have arms or legs.
(http://s2.postimg.org/mki535u3t/junecorpse.jpg)
Sorry I didn't make myself clear the garment hanging over the banisters - it's blue.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
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Sorry I didn't make myself clear the garment hanging over the banisters - it's blue.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
If forced to venture a guess I would say blue pantyhose.
The underwear portion of pantyhose is usually darker than the leg portion and that seems to be the case here. When not being worn the leg portion will contract and look "fuzzy" and it seems to be the case here.
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1) There is zero objective evidence that establishes the shoes in the crime scene photos are Nevill's slippers. Neither the police who took the photos nor the family who cleaned up the house afterwards assert any shoes belonging to Nevill were in the room. Some people posting on blue simply deciding from looking at the blurry photo that they feel it is Nevill's slipper. I produced slippers looking very similar that are women's. It is simply rank speculation they are Nevilll's.
2) The notion Sheila went to sleep with her mother is absurd. She was a grown woman and was not in the habit of sleeping with her mother. She had her own room where her own clothes were.
3) The evidence proves beyond question the attack started in the master bedroom with 10-11 shots fired at Nevill and June. June suffered no less than 6 shots while Nevill suffered 4. It seems unlikely that June ran past Jeremy to the other side of the bed then ran back towards him and was knocked down or fell then he finally fired his last shot between her eyes. Much more likely is that she collapsed on her own while Nevill and Jeremy were going to the kitchen and when he returned he pull a bullet between her eyes to make sure she was dead.
It is obvious that Sheila was sleeping at the time this occurred and either didn't wake up until much later or Jeremy woke her up after killing everyone else. The notion he shot June and then carefully staged Sheila and Nevill came in shorty after this doesn't work at all.
A) Aside from making no sense for Sheila to go to bed with June, even if the gun had 11 rounds 6 into June and 2 into Sheila leaves only 3 remaining and Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom before running to the kitchen. Some of those shots mind you were fired while he was not fully upright so clearly he was seated in bed or getting out of bed when the shots were fired. I don't believe Jeremy was standing on a chair as he was shooting.
B) If Nevill entered as he was trying to position Sheila then Nevill would have tried to jump him and the shots would be to his right side or front if he managed to shoot before Nevill could get him and there would have been a struggle at that point. Otherwise Nevill would have actually made it to the shotguns uninjured. Nevill was shot in the left side because he was getting out of bed and that is the side of him that was exposed.
Sheila was clearly in her own room. She either woke up and eventually went to investigate found her mother and then Jeremy returned before she could go check on her kids and try to whisk them to safety/hide them or when Jeremy returned she was still in bed and he had to wake her up. If she was still in bed he woke her up he didn't take her in his arms like sleeping beauty and carry her to the bedroom as Adam suggests...
master scipio usmc could he have picked her up like sleeping beauty.she having been sedated by her medication or just in deep sleep .and placed her against the bed cabinet and shot her once then later placed her flat and shot her again.would the trajectories line up.just a thought.
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master scipio usmc could he have picked her up like sleeping beauty.she having been sedated by her medication or just in deep sleep .and placed her against the bed cabinet and shot her once then later placed her flat and shot her again.would the trajectories line up.just a thought.
He would put the gun down and carry her to the master bedroom then go fetch the gun and return hoping she didn't move instead of waking her up and having her walk on her own at gunpoint?
Based on the bleeding pattern she was shot both times while seated, she wasn't lying down. For the first shot (neck) the gun was fired at not contact range nearly level so nearly at a 90 degree angle. That alone should have told Vanezis someone else shot her. Vanezis did a horrible job in this case. The second shot was at contact range under her chin the gun was used to push her head back in order to be able to make sure it was aimed at her brain. She could have managed the second shot lying down so long as the gun didn't have the moderator attached but would have left evidence on her clothing and the blood stains would have been different. Evidence the moderator was used forecloses her shooting herself.
After she was dead is when she was moved flat and that was in order to be able to lay the gun across her body. With her seated such could not be done.
So she was essentially shot like this with the gun not in contact with her body:
(http://s2.postimg.org/953vy2q0p/sheilanonfatal.jpg)
He was simply aiming the gun at her at non-contact range with her scared and he fired. This shot broke her neck and would have sent her into shock and thus made her unable to resist. She wa sout of it so he coudl do anything he wanted at that point.
He probably got scared that she didn't die and wanted to kill her as quickly as possible so as to not ruin things or wanted to put her out of her misery so he didn't wait long before firing another shot. He shot her like this with the gun touching her to fire into her brain:
(http://s14.postimg.org/lageqy9lt/sheilaleaningback.jpg)
After he moved her flat the blood flow changed. The blood ran down the side of her neck pooling on the floor. Also some blood ran down the side of her arm but most had begun to dry already enough so that it didn't.
He opened the Bible and got a little blood on it either by accident or on purpose for staging purposes but then the Bible closed. He reopened it to the same exact page. Because it closed blood transferred to the other side of the page creating a mirror blood stain. This is how we know it was opened then closed then reopened to the same page. With it open he then stupidly stuck the Bible in the pool of blood near her shoulder that formed after she died. This proved the Bible was placed there after her death. He should have stuck it by her waist because that is where she would have put it if she had been reading it before killing herself. He didn't think it through well and figure you read with your head so stuck it there. No one has ever figured out what precisely he was trying to accomplish. He got very lucky because the morons for the prosecution failed to appreciate the significance of this evidence until many years after his trial. The prosecution tried raising this during his 2002 appeal but the Court of Appeals held that the evidence her body was moved after her death and the Bible staged after her death didn't qualify as new evidence. It is evidence they could and should have been aware of but missed. To be new it has to be something they could not know at the time using due diligence. If he were ever to be retried it could be raised at that point but can't be raised to establish he is guilty so should not receive a new trial. To get a new trial he just needs to undermine the evidence used at trial to convict him.
He seems to have played around with Nevill's body as well. It seems unlikely his head got on the pail naturally. Did he do it to make it his head easier target to shoot or did he have something special in mind he was trying to convey that no one figured out? Since Jeremy didn't tell Julie everything we have no way to know. He told her his general plans before but was far less forthcoming about finer details after it was done since he wanted to pretend someone else did it. There is a snowball chance in hell of him coming clean and explaining everything so we will never know everything he was trying to suggest with his staging and what his thought process was.
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He would put the gun down and carry her to the master bedroom then go fetch the gun and return hoping she didn't move instead of waking her up and having her walk on her own at gunpoint?
Based on the bleeding pattern she was shot both times while seated, she wasn't lying down. For the first shot (neck) the gun was fired at not contact range nearly level so nearly at a 90 degree angle. That alone should have told Vanezis someone else shot her. Vanezis did a horrible job in this case. The second shot was at contact range under her chin the gun was used to push her head back in order to be able to make sure it was aimed at her brain. She could have managed the second shot lying down so long as the gun didn't have the moderator attached but would have left evidence on her clothing and the blood stains would have been different. Evidence the moderator was used forecloses her shooting herself.he was dead is when she was moved flat and that was in order to be able to lay the gun across her body. With her seated such could not be done.
So she was essentially shot like this with the gun not in contact with her body:
(http://s2.postimg.org/953vy2q0p/sheilanonfatal.jpg)
He was simply aiming the gun at her at non-contact range with her scared and he fired. This shot broke her neck and would have sent her into shock and thus made her unable to resist. She wa sout of it so he coudl do anything he wanted at that point.
He probably got scared that she didn't die and wanted to kill her as quickly as possible so as to not ruin things or wanted to put her out of her misery so he didn't wait long before firing another shot. He shot her like this with the gun touching her to fire into her brain:
(http://s14.postimg.org/lageqy9lt/sheilaleaningback.jpg)
After he moved her flat the blood flow changed. The blood ran down the side of her neck pooling on the floor. Also some blood ran down the side of her arm but most had begun to dry already enough so that it didn't.
He opened the Bible and got a little blood on it either by accident or on purpose for staging purposes but then the Bible closed. He reopened it to the same exact page. Because it closed blood transferred to the other side of the page creating a mirror blood stain. This is how we know it was opened then closed then reopened to the same page. With it open he then stupidly stuck the Bible in the pool of blood near her shoulder that formed after she died. This proved the Bible was placed there after her death. He should have stuck it by her waist because that is where she would have put it if she had been reading it before killing herself. He didn't think it through well and figure you read with your head so stuck it there. No one has ever figured out what precisely he was trying to accomplish. He got very lucky because the morons for the prosecution failed to appreciate the significance of this evidence until many years after his trial. The prosecution tried raising this during his 2002 appeal but the Court of Appeals held that the evidence her body was moved after her death and the Bible staged after her death didn't qualify as new evidence. It is evidence they could and should have been aware of but missed. To be new it has to be something they could not know at the time using due diligence. If he were ever to be retried it could be raised at that point but can't be raised to establish he is guilty so should not receive a new trial. To get a new trial he just needs to undermine the evidence used at trial to convict him.
He seems to have played around with Nevill's body as well. It seems unlikely his head got on the pail naturally. Did he do it to make it his head easier target to shoot or did he have something special in mind he was trying to convey that no one figured out? Since Jeremy didn't tell Julie everyone we have no way to know.
you have to hand it to the master.another absolutely brilliant observation and explanation with diagrams.thank you master Scipio usmc 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
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All I can tell is that it is black. Maybe it is some sort of leggings. The photo of June dead doesn't who it completely just what seems to have arms or legs.
(http://s2.postimg.org/mki535u3t/junecorpse.jpg)
Out of the 3 images of June that are out there, this is the clearest. And it begs the question, bearing in mind the livor under her legs, how did she get so severely bruised on the top of her legs? Did she stumble around the bedroom? Or, brave as she was, did she try to stop Bamber, possibly plead for the boys, and grapple with him (while he kicked her), and that's how Ralph made it out of the bedroom to try to either go for help or find another gun? Just as Bamber overestimated the power of the gun, he underestimated June's courage and strength. She was small and frail, but she managed to fight, when she knew that she was dying.
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And one more thing, you strange blue forum freaks and angry old bints. There was no "look of horror" on June's face.
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Out of the 3 images of June that are out there, this is the clearest. And it begs the question, bearing in mind the livor under her legs, how did she get so severely bruised on the top of her legs? Did she stumble around the bedroom? Or, brave as she was, did she try to stop Bamber, possibly plead for the boys, and grapple with him (while he kicked her), and that's how Ralph made it out of the bedroom to try to either go for help or find another gun? Just as Bamber overestimated the power of the gun, he underestimated June's courage and strength. She was small and frail, but she managed to fight, when she knew that she was dying.
It could be the crappy quality of the photos. I have pics where my arms look bruised though it was just shadowing from the camera.
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Can we all be mindful please that most of us have no idea of the personalities behind the usernames. No matter how irritating we might find posters either here or elsewhere I am sure in reality &%+((£ none of us would want to be held personally responsible and/or the forum and those running it for having some serious adverse affect on a.n other:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-sky-news-journalist-5371486
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/22/tory-activist-possibly-committed-suicide-party-bullying
Might seem extreme but sadly it does happen.
Banter etc with the Blue forum is fine but please exercise some judgement.
TY.
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There's another photo of the Landing here. What's that blue cloth item hanging over the banister rail?
They look like hose or leggings?
Tights.
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It could be the crappy quality of the photos. I have pics where my arms look bruised though it was just shadowing from the camera.
Don't put those pictures on a current or future Tinder profile. The ladies will press 'X' instead of the heart.