UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2015, 01:52:29 PM
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Many of you will recall Kerry Daynes' contribution to the tv programme 'Killing Mum and Dad'. Kerry is a forensic psychologist.
http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?5788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU
Dear Kerry
I am sure you will recall your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad' regarding the above. As an aide-memoire I have detailed your input as follows:
"It's likely that he felt incredibly rejected on many different fronts and that this caused him to feel that he desperatly wanted attention. He wanted to be loved but that if he actually attempted to get this he would be rejected again. This causes a terrible conflict for a child and one way of coping with it might be simply to detach. You detach from your emotions so you can't be hurt. What could of happened is that the emotional switches in Jeremy's brain could have been permanently jammed in the off position.
It's possible that these are the early signs that in actual fact that he has got psychopathic traits. So breaking rules, constantly breaking rules in many different ways. Also being sexually promiscious and really needing a high level of stimulation. They are very prone to boredom.
I think that is classic behaviour of a psychopath. I think that in essence Jeremy painted on his emotions. The emotions that he felt he should portray for that day. And then when he felt that nobody was watching him, or nobody that mattered was watching him, he simply took the mask off and put it to one side.
He certainly ticks an awful lot of the boxes for a psychopath. Here is somebody who is grandiose. He's arrogant. He seems to have very little emotion and what he does is very shallow and rather fake. He manipulates other people and he's quite happy to use people to meet his own needs.
I believe that in the past he has coped with overwhelming emotions by simply cutting off from them. And really he has done the same thing in response to his offences. Denial of his offences is the biggest form of cutting off you can have. In his mind he probably believes that he really didn't do it".
I would like to raise a few points and ask a few questions:
- Were you aware that Sheila Caffell (nee Bamber) and Jeremy Bamber were adopted by Nevill and June Bamber shortly after birth?
- It is reported that Sheila spent two weeks with her birth mother before spending the next 2/3 months in a children's home pending adoption.
- Were you aware that June Bamber suffered two breakdowns requiring in-patient psychiatric care before and after adopting Sheila? The first breakdown occurred in 1955 and according to June's friends was bound up with her inability to conceive children. The second breakdown occurred in 1959, at which time Sheila was circa 2 years of age, and according to June's psychiatrist was caused by her decision to adopt. The second breakdown required electroconvulsive treatment.
- Following June's second breakdown a full-time 17 year old nanny was employed to care for Sheila. During June's abscence I believe Nevill cared for Sheila with family support.
- Despite the above Mr and Mrs Bamber were approved to adopt Jeremy Bamber in 1961. Sheila's nanny continued to work full-time looking after Sheila and Jeremy until Jeremy was around 2 years of age at which time she worked as and when required until Jeremy was of school age. Other girls, including a French au pair, were employed on the same causual basis.
- Apparently Mr and Mrs Bamber told Sheila and Jeremy they were adopted when they were each around 7 years of age. Jeremy attended boarding school around the age of 8 and Sheila from the age of 10 . Their respective boarding schools were miles away from each other and White House Farm (the Bamber family home).
- Sheila was reunited with her birth mother and other birth family members some 3 months before the murders.
- Are you aware that a pscyhology exists peculiar to adoption? David Brodzinsky is argubably the world's expert on adoption and has authored and co-authored several books on the subject including 'The Psychology Of Adoption' co-authored with Dr Marshall Schechter, a child psychiatrist. The book includes the largest study of adopted children where the authors have brought together a group of leading researchers from various disciplines to explore the complex, interdisciplinary subject of adoption. Also 'The Lifelong Search For Self' based on Erik Erikson's model of psychosocial stages of development.
http://www.aclu-il.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CV-David-Brodzinsky.pdf
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Psychology-Adoption-David-Brodzinsky/dp/0195082737
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Being-Adopted-Lifelong-Search-Self/dp/0385414021
- I will take it as a given that you are fully conversant with attachment theory. Are you aware of the work of Dr Allan Schore? His research shows a correlation between attachment and suicide. I have linked below relevant presentations:
http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/AllanSchoreCV2012.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ236szRMD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB51V3fAAvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZQhCMy3vU
- Are you aware of the National Scientific Council for the developing child? Their research shows how maternal depression and neglect can adversely affect the developing child. The definition of neglect is inadequate responsiveness to the needs of young children by caregivers. I have linked below relevant material:
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/The-Science-of-Neglect-The-Persistent-Absence-of-Responsive-Care-Disrupts-the-Developing-Brain.pdf
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Maternal-Depression-Can-Undermine-Development.pdf
- I understand Jeremy has been assessed by numerous psychologists during his long incarceration and as far as I am aware no professional has identified any mental illness and/or personality disorder.
Surely my comments above are highly relevant to the Bamber family and yet you have not included any aspect in your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad'? I would also add that as far as I am aware the psychiatrist that treated June and Sheila privately, Dr Hugh Ferguson, did not at any stage of treating either woman make reference to any aspect of the above. Nor did he discuss any aspect of this with Jeremy's defence therefore jurors were denied full knowledge of the psychological backgrounds of the victims and defendent.
Thank you for taking the time to read my email.
I would welcome any comments you might wish to make.
Yours sincerely
16
-
Many of you will recall Kerry Daynes' contribution to the tv programme 'Killing Mum and Dad'. Kerry is a forensic psychologist.
http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?5788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU
Dear Kerry
I am sure you will recall your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad' regarding the above. As an aide-memoire I have detailed your input as follows:
"It's likely that he felt incredibly rejected on many different fronts and that this caused him to feel that he desperatly wanted attention. He wanted to be loved but that if he actually attempted to get this he would be rejected again. This causes a terrible conflict for a child and one way of coping with it might be simply to detach. You detach from your emotions so you can't be hurt. What could of happened is that the emotional switches in Jeremy's brain could have been permanently jammed in the off position.
It's possible that these are the early signs that in actual fact that he has got psychopathic traits. So breaking rules, constantly breaking rules in many different ways. Also being sexually promiscious and really needing a high level of stimulation. They are very prone to boredom.
I think that is classic behaviour of a psychopath. I think that in essence Jeremy painted on his emotions. The emotions that he felt he should portray for that day. And then when he felt that nobody was watching him, or nobody that mattered was watching him, he simply took the mask off and put it to one side.
He certainly ticks an awful lot of the boxes for a psychopath. Here is somebody who is grandiose. He's arrogant. He seems to have very little emotion and what he does is very shallow and rather fake. He manipulates other people and he's quite happy to use people to meet his own needs.
I believe that in the past he has coped with overwhelming emotions by simply cutting off from them. And really he has done the same thing in response to his offences. Denial of his offences is the biggest form of cutting off you can have. In his mind he probably believes that he really didn't do it".
I would like to raise a few points and ask a few questions:
- Were you aware that Sheila Caffell (nee Bamber) and Jeremy Bamber were adopted by Nevill and June Bamber shortly after birth?
- It is reported that Sheila spent two weeks with her birth mother before spending the next 2/3 months in a children's home pending adoption.
- Were you aware that June Bamber suffered two breakdowns requiring in-patient psychiatric care before and after adopting Sheila? The first breakdown occurred in 1955 and according to June's friends was bound up with her inability to conceive children. The second breakdown occurred in 1959, at which time Sheila was circa 2 years of age, and according to June's psychiatrist was caused by her decision to adopt. The second breakdown required electroconvulsive treatment.
- Following June's second breakdown a full-time 17 year old nanny was employed to care for Sheila. During June's abscence I believe Nevill cared for Sheila with family support.
- Despite the above Mr and Mrs Bamber were approved to adopt Jeremy Bamber in 1961. Sheila's nanny continued to work full-time looking after Sheila and Jeremy until Jeremy was around 2 years of age at which time she worked as and when required until Jeremy was of school age. Other girls, including a French au pair, were employed on the same causual basis.
- Apparently Mr and Mrs Bamber told Sheila and Jeremy they were adopted when they were each around 7 years of age. Jeremy attended boarding school around the age of 8 and Sheila from the age of 10 . Their respective boarding schools were miles away from each other and White House Farm (the Bamber family home).
- Sheila was reunited with her birth mother and other birth family members some 3 months before the murders.
- Are you aware that a pscyhology exists peculiar to adoption? David Brodzinsky is argubably the world's expert on adoption and has authored and co-authored several books on the subject including 'The Psychology Of Adoption' co-authored with Dr Marshall Schechter, a child psychiatrist. The book includes the largest study of adopted children where the authors have brought together a group of leading researchers from various disciplines to explore the complex, interdisciplinary subject of adoption. Also 'The Lifelong Search For Self' based on Erik Erikson's model of psychosocial stages of development.
http://www.aclu-il.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CV-David-Brodzinsky.pdf
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Psychology-Adoption-David-Brodzinsky/dp/0195082737
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Being-Adopted-Lifelong-Search-Self/dp/0385414021
- I will take it as a given that you are fully conversant with attachment theory. Are you aware of the work of Dr Allan Schore? His research shows a correlation between attachment and suicide. I have linked below relevant presentations:
http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/AllanSchoreCV2012.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ236szRMD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB51V3fAAvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZQhCMy3vU
- Are you aware of the National Scientific Council for the developing child? Their research shows how maternal depression and neglect can adversely affect the developing child. The definition of neglect is inadequate responsiveness to the needs of young children by caregivers. I have linked below relevant material:
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/The-Science-of-Neglect-The-Persistent-Absence-of-Responsive-Care-Disrupts-the-Developing-Brain.pdf
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Maternal-Depression-Can-Undermine-Development.pdf
- I understand Jeremy has been assessed by numerous psychologists during his long incarceration and as far as I am aware no professional has identified any mental illness and/or personality disorder.
Surely my comments above are highly relevant to the Bamber family and yet you have not included any aspect in your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad'? I would also add that as far as I am aware the psychiatrist that treated June and Sheila privately, Dr Hugh Ferguson, did not at any stage of treating either woman make reference to any aspect of the above. Nor did he discuss any aspect of this with Jeremy's defence therefore jurors were denied full knowledge of the psychological backgrounds of the victims and defendent.
Thank you for taking the time to read my email.
I would welcome any comments you might wish to make.
Yours sincerely
Did you receive a reply?
Do you not find it odd that Jeremy Bamber claims to be unaffected by his adoption; just as Simon Hall once also claimed?
Pre trial, Bamber's defence learned he was a psychopath.
Pre trial, Simon Halls defence learned he had a dissocial personality. Just like Bamber, Hall duped further prison assessments. Simon Hall's inquest concluded he was not suffering from any mental health issues prior to his suicide.
The fact is Holly, Jeremy Bamber has never disclosed his pre trial assessment to the public nor indeed his supporters.
"Dissocial personality disorder is one of ten personality disorders defined in the ICD-10 classification system. It is called [ censored word]ocial personality disorder in the DSM-IV and DSM-5 classification systems and is still sometimes referred to as such by professionals in the UK. For more information, see separate Personality Disorders and Psychopathy article.
People with dissocial personality disorder exhibit traits of impulsivity, high negative emotionality, low conscientiousness and associated behaviours, including irresponsible and exploitative behaviour, recklessness and deceitfulness. [1, 2]
People with dissocial personality disorder have often grown up with parental conflict and harsh inconsistent parenting. Their childhoods have typically featured parental inadequacies and often transfer of care to outside agencies. Associated with this is a high incidence of truancy, delinquency and substance misuse. [3] This in turn results in increased rates of unemployment, problems with housing and difficulties with relationships. Many people with dissocial personality disorder have a criminal conviction and are imprisoned or die prematurely as a result of reckless behaviour. [1, 2]
Criminal behaviour is central to the definition of dissocial personality disorder but there is much more to the disorder than just criminal behaviour. It is often preceded by other long-standing difficulties (socio-economic, educational, family, relationship). Psychopathy is considered to be a considerably severe form of dissocial personality disorder
https://medical.azureedge.net/pdf/9331.pdf
The victims weren't on tria!
Btw, how do you think your email was perceived by Kerry Daynes?
-
Many of you will recall Kerry Daynes' contribution to the tv programme 'Killing Mum and Dad'. Kerry is a forensic psychologist.
http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?5788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU
Dear Kerry
I am sure you will recall your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad' regarding the above. As an aide-memoire I have detailed your input as follows:
"It's likely that he felt incredibly rejected on many different fronts and that this caused him to feel that he desperatly wanted attention. He wanted to be loved but that if he actually attempted to get this he would be rejected again. This causes a terrible conflict for a child and one way of coping with it might be simply to detach. You detach from your emotions so you can't be hurt. What could of happened is that the emotional switches in Jeremy's brain could have been permanently jammed in the off position.
It's possible that these are the early signs that in actual fact that he has got psychopathic traits. So breaking rules, constantly breaking rules in many different ways. Also being sexually promiscious and really needing a high level of stimulation. They are very prone to boredom.
I think that is classic behaviour of a psychopath. I think that in essence Jeremy painted on his emotions. The emotions that he felt he should portray for that day. And then when he felt that nobody was watching him, or nobody that mattered was watching him, he simply took the mask off and put it to one side.
He certainly ticks an awful lot of the boxes for a psychopath. Here is somebody who is grandiose. He's arrogant. He seems to have very little emotion and what he does is very shallow and rather fake. He manipulates other people and he's quite happy to use people to meet his own needs.
I believe that in the past he has coped with overwhelming emotions by simply cutting off from them. And really he has done the same thing in response to his offences. Denial of his offences is the biggest form of cutting off you can have. In his mind he probably believes that he really didn't do it".
I would like to raise a few points and ask a few questions:
- Were you aware that Sheila Caffell (nee Bamber) and Jeremy Bamber were adopted by Nevill and June Bamber shortly after birth?
- It is reported that Sheila spent two weeks with her birth mother before spending the next 2/3 months in a children's home pending adoption.
- Were you aware that June Bamber suffered two breakdowns requiring in-patient psychiatric care before and after adopting Sheila? The first breakdown occurred in 1955 and according to June's friends was bound up with her inability to conceive children. The second breakdown occurred in 1959, at which time Sheila was circa 2 years of age, and according to June's psychiatrist was caused by her decision to adopt. The second breakdown required electroconvulsive treatment.
- Following June's second breakdown a full-time 17 year old nanny was employed to care for Sheila. During June's abscence I believe Nevill cared for Sheila with family support.
- Despite the above Mr and Mrs Bamber were approved to adopt Jeremy Bamber in 1961. Sheila's nanny continued to work full-time looking after Sheila and Jeremy until Jeremy was around 2 years of age at which time she worked as and when required until Jeremy was of school age. Other girls, including a French au pair, were employed on the same causual basis.
- Apparently Mr and Mrs Bamber told Sheila and Jeremy they were adopted when they were each around 7 years of age. Jeremy attended boarding school around the age of 8 and Sheila from the age of 10 . Their respective boarding schools were miles away from each other and White House Farm (the Bamber family home).
- Sheila was reunited with her birth mother and other birth family members some 3 months before the murders.
- Are you aware that a pscyhology exists peculiar to adoption? David Brodzinsky is argubably the world's expert on adoption and has authored and co-authored several books on the subject including 'The Psychology Of Adoption' co-authored with Dr Marshall Schechter, a child psychiatrist. The book includes the largest study of adopted children where the authors have brought together a group of leading researchers from various disciplines to explore the complex, interdisciplinary subject of adoption. Also 'The Lifelong Search For Self' based on Erik Erikson's model of psychosocial stages of development.
http://www.aclu-il.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CV-David-Brodzinsky.pdf
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Psychology-Adoption-David-Brodzinsky/dp/0195082737
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Being-Adopted-Lifelong-Search-Self/dp/0385414021
- I will take it as a given that you are fully conversant with attachment theory. Are you aware of the work of Dr Allan Schore? His research shows a correlation between attachment and suicide. I have linked below relevant presentations:
http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/AllanSchoreCV2012.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ236szRMD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB51V3fAAvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZQhCMy3vU
- Are you aware of the National Scientific Council for the developing child? Their research shows how maternal depression and neglect can adversely affect the developing child. The definition of neglect is inadequate responsiveness to the needs of young children by caregivers. I have linked below relevant material:
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/The-Science-of-Neglect-The-Persistent-Absence-of-Responsive-Care-Disrupts-the-Developing-Brain.pdf
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Maternal-Depression-Can-Undermine-Development.pdf
- I understand Jeremy has been assessed by numerous psychologists during his long incarceration and as far as I am aware no professional has identified any mental illness and/or personality disorder.
Surely my comments above are highly relevant to the Bamber family and yet you have not included any aspect in your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad'? I would also add that as far as I am aware the psychiatrist that treated June and Sheila privately, Dr Hugh Ferguson, did not at any stage of treating either woman make reference to any aspect of the above. Nor did he discuss any aspect of this with Jeremy's defence therefore jurors were denied full knowledge of the psychological backgrounds of the victims and defendent.
Thank you for taking the time to read my email.
I would welcome any comments you might wish to make.
Yours sincerely
Kerry Daynes description of Bamber appears spot on to me Holly.
I'm unsure what you were hoping your email would achieve? What was your goal when you sent it?
In many of these cases, the prosecution do not look deeply into the background of the defendant. In the Simon Hall case, the police were aware Hall had been adopted but no further actioned this point. He was adopted, that was all they needed to know. Details of his adoption were irrelevant to the murder investigation.
Same applied to his psychological assessment pre trial. He was adopted. The forensic psychologist knew nothing other than what Hall told them. Even though many of the details he did tell them were inaccurate. These inaccurate details stayed on his files and went with him to prison, as I imagine they did with Bamber. Future prison assessments were based on these details.
Before Simon Hall died he came to learn much about his adoption, his bio parents, his younger bio siblings etc, and learned about their backgrounds. His bio father died by suicide for example. This information was not on Hall's prison records because Hall chose to not tell the prison.
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Did you receive a reply?
No. I wasn't expecting one.
Do you not find it odd that Jeremy Bamber claims to be unaffected by his adoption; just as Simon Hall once also claimed?
No.
Pre trial, Bamber's defence learned he was a psychopath.
Please provide the evidence.
Pre trial, Simon Halls defence learned he had a dissocial personality. Just like Bamber, Hall duped further prison assessments. Simon Hall's inquest concluded he was not suffering from any mental health issues prior to his suicide.
The fact is Holly, Jeremy Bamber has never disclosed his pre trial assessment to the public nor indeed his supporters.
Ive no idea what a pre trial assessment is. JB's trial was some 17 years before SH's maybe the process was different then? SH had convictions for violent offending prior to his conviction for murder.
I don't believe JB has duped anyone with regard to his physical or mental health. Prof Egan no doubt had access to JB's complete prison file. Do you think he would commit to the following without checking JB's prison records and background:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
"Dissocial personality disorder is one of ten personality disorders defined in the ICD-10 classification system. It is called [ censored word]ocial personality disorder in the DSM-IV and DSM-5 classification systems and is still sometimes referred to as such by professionals in the UK. For more information, see separate Personality Disorders and Psychopathy article.
People with dissocial personality disorder exhibit traits of impulsivity, high negative emotionality, low conscientiousness and associated behaviours, including irresponsible and exploitative behaviour, recklessness and deceitfulness. [1, 2]
People with dissocial personality disorder have often grown up with parental conflict and harsh inconsistent parenting. Their childhoods have typically featured parental inadequacies and often transfer of care to outside agencies. Associated with this is a high incidence of truancy, delinquency and substance misuse. [3] This in turn results in increased rates of unemployment, problems with housing and difficulties with relationships. Many people with dissocial personality disorder have a criminal conviction and are imprisoned or die prematurely as a result of reckless behaviour. [1, 2]
Criminal behaviour is central to the definition of dissocial personality disorder but there is much more to the disorder than just criminal behaviour. It is often preceded by other long-standing difficulties (socio-economic, educational, family, relationship). Psychopathy is considered to be a considerably severe form of dissocial personality disorder
https://medical.azureedge.net/pdf/9331.pdf
The victims weren't on trial!
No the victims weren't on trial but 2 of the 3 adult victims had long histories of mental illness. Furthermore CC drafted a letter intended for NB in which he stated he would not allow June to f**k up the minds of the twins as he suspected she had done with SC.
Btw, how do you think your email was perceived by Kerry Daynes?
I've no idea but it's there for the day of reckoning.
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No. I wasn't expecting one.
No.Please provide the evidence.
Ive no idea what a pre trial assessment is. JB's trial was some 17 years before SH's maybe the process was different then? SH had convictions for violent offending prior to his conviction for murder.
Why then did you go to so much trouble to put your email together, send it to Kerry Daynes, then replicate it in order to post a copy on this forum?
What did you hope to achieve? What motivated you to do this in the first instance?
I do not need to provide evidence with regards Bambers pre trial assessment report confirming he was/is a psychopath.
Common sense would tell anyone the reason he has claimed for the last 3 decades he isn't one, says he was quite clearly labelled as one. Why would he go to such lengths in order to dupe his supporters and the public, if it was never suggested in the first place.
Simon Hall did indeed have previous convictions for violence in his youth and spent time in a young offenders institute.
However, Bamber committed a burglary some 5 months prior to the murders and admitted his guilt to police when arrested and questioned under caution in relation to the offence.
The fact Bamber robbed his own family business and admitted to it whilst under police caution gave him motive.
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Holly you stated:
"No the victims weren't on trial but 2 of the 3 adult victims had long histories of mental illness. Furthermore CC drafted a letter intended for NB in which he stated he would not allow June to f**k up the minds of the twins as he suspected she had done with SC."
What's your point?
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Ive no idea what a pre trial assessment is.
Maybe you should look into it.
Then once you have, we could have an objective and reasoned debate about it.
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Why then did you go to so much trouble to put your email together, send it to Kerry Daynes, then replicate it in order to post a copy on this forum?
It wasn't particularly troublesome. Although admittedly it did extend to more than copying and pasting.
Debate and discussion. Electronic footprint for the day of reckoning.
What did you hope to achieve? What motivated you to do this in the first instance?
As above. Studied psychology in the 80's. The course didn't include PD's but it did include attachment and psychosocial development. Experience and knowledge of adoption. Think all of this has been overlooked in the case. Thinks it's appalling that professionals ie Daynes can spout about an individual publically never having even met the individual.
I do not need to provide evidence with regards Bambers pre trial assessment report confirming he was/is a psychopath.
No you don't to convince yourself but if you want to convince me and anyone who is evidence driven you will.
Common sense would tell anyone the reason he has claimed for the last 3 decades he isn't one, says he was quite clearly labelled as one. Why would he go to such lengths in order to dupe his supporters and the public, if it was never suggested in the first place.
I think it's like the bible ie I can't recall him making an issue out of not being a psychopath? Please point me in the direction of where he has publicly stated this other than the OS and appearing in a tshirt with the slogan 'I'm not a psychopath'?
Simon Hall did indeed have previous convictions for violence in his youth and spent time in a young offenders institute.
However, Bamber committed a burglary some 5 months prior to the murders and admitted his guilt to police when arrested and questioned under caution in relation to the offence.
The fact Bamber robbed his own family business and admitted to it whilst under police caution gave him motive.
There's a big difference between violent offending and burglary/theft.
Don't forget JM acted as look out during the burglary and carried out a fraud/theft independent of JB. Would you label her a psychopath?
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It wasn't particularly troublesome. Although admittedly it did extend to more than copying and pasting.
Debate and discussion. Electronic footprint for the day of reckoning.
You state and I quote:
"Although admittedly it did extend to more than copying and pasting"
What volume of your email was copied and pasted or is this you having a snide dig?
"Electronic footprint for the day of reckoning"
So you openly admit to seeking out plaudits for your efforts over all these years?
What do you think we can conclude from these two observations Holly?
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It wasn't particularly troublesome. Although admittedly it did extend to more than copying and pasting.
Debate and discussion. Electronic footprint for the day of reckoning.
As above. Studied psychology in the 80's. The course didn't include PD's but it did include attachment and psychosocial development. Experience and knowledge of adoption. Think all of this has been overlooked in the case. Thinks it's appalling that professionals ie Daynes can spout about an individual publically never having even met the individual.
No you don't to convince yourself but if you want to convince me and anyone who is evidence driven you will.
I think it's like the bible ie I can't recall him making an issue out of not being a psychopath? Please point me in the direction of where he has publicly stated this other than the OS and appearing in a tshirt with the slogan 'I'm not a psychopath'?
There's a big difference between violent offending and burglary/theft.
Don't forget JM acted as look out during the burglary and carried out a fraud/theft independent of JB. Would you label her a psychopath?
Julie Mugford was and is a victim of Jeremy Bamber.
She turned Queens evidence and the jury in Bambers murder trial believed her over him.
Jeremy Bamber was found to be the "consummate actor!"
You and others can attempt to discredit JM as much as you wish but it only serves to highlight your own confirmation bias.
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September 2013
"A REAL-life Cracker has told how she was forced to take out an injunction
against a crazed stalker.
Serial-killer expert Kerry Daynes was targeted after she appeared on the first
series of When Life Means Life, which airs on the Crime & Investigation
Network.
She said: “I have had problems from supporters of serial killers, torturers
and rapists.
“There has been some unwanted attention and I even had to take an injunction
out on someone who was stalking me.
“It is still ongoing at court but I came to the attention of someone connected
to mass murderer Jeremy Bamber.
“They were constantly pestering me on the internet and I had to take legal
action. https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/tv/1031939/murder-expert-says-she-is-being-stalked/
“It is scary but generally, by and large, people who recognise me tend to just
be interested in what I do.”
-
September 2013
"A REAL-life Cracker has told how she was forced to take out an injunction
against a crazed stalker.
Serial-killer expert Kerry Daynes was targeted after she appeared on the first
series of When Life Means Life, which airs on the Crime & Investigation
Network.
She said: “I have had problems from supporters of serial killers, torturers
and rapists.
“There has been some unwanted attention and I even had to take an injunction
out on someone who was stalking me.
“It is still ongoing at court but I came to the attention of someone connected
to mass murderer Jeremy Bamber.
“They were constantly pestering me on the internet and I had to take legal
action. https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/tv/1031939/murder-expert-says-she-is-being-stalked/
“It is scary but generally, by and large, people who recognise me tend to just
be interested in what I do.”
Jeremy Bambers supporters don't appear to be aware that many of "their" actions end up on Bamber's prison security files.
Wonder who Kerry Daynes alleged stalker is/was and who she had to take out an injunction on?
People who do this sort of thing aren't normal!
-
This is some serious stuff though *&^^&
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-04-19/strangers-website-offer-escalated-to-terrifying-stalking-ordeal-for-tv-forensic-psychologist-kerry-daynes/
-
This is some serious stuff though *&^^&
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-04-19/strangers-website-offer-escalated-to-terrifying-stalking-ordeal-for-tv-forensic-psychologist-kerry-daynes/
https://www.suzylamplugh.org/blog/guest-blog-kerry-daynes-my-stalking-experience
"As a mental health professional I’m acutely aware that this man needs help. You don’t decide to stalk a person you have seen on TV because you are in a healthy and fulfilled place in your own life. Clearly he struggles with his own mental distress and, like most stalkers is consumed with a sense of entitlement that is triggered when he feels rebuffed and/or wronged. Nearly seven years in, he continues to re-register his website domain names - as recently as Christmas last year. And, as it turns out, he has also received a Harassment Warning in relation to his behaviour towards another woman. He needs psychological treatment - just not from me
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It wasn't particularly troublesome. Although admittedly it did extend to more than copying and pasting.
Debate and discussion. Electronic footprint for the day of reckoning.
As above. Studied psychology in the 80's. The course didn't include PD's but it did include attachment and psychosocial development. Experience and knowledge of adoption. Think all of this has been overlooked in the case. Thinks it's appalling that professionals ie Daynes can spout about an individual publically never having even met the individual.
No you don't to convince yourself but if you want to convince me and anyone who is evidence driven you will.
I think it's like the bible ie I can't recall him making an issue out of not being a psychopath? Please point me in the direction of where he has publicly stated this other than the OS and appearing in a tshirt with the slogan 'I'm not a psychopath'?
There's a big difference between violent offending and burglary/theft.
Don't forget JM acted as look out during the burglary and carried out a fraud/theft independent of JB. Would you label her a psychopath?
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/sunday-sport/20101010/286057707905746
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It wasn't particularly troublesome. Although admittedly it did extend to more than copying and pasting.
Debate and discussion. Electronic footprint for the day of reckoning.
As above. Studied psychology in the 80's. The course didn't include PD's but it did include attachment and psychosocial development. Experience and knowledge of adoption. Think all of this has been overlooked in the case. Thinks it's appalling that professionals ie Daynes can spout about an individual publically never having even met the individual.
No you don't to convince yourself but if you want to convince me and anyone who is evidence driven you will.
I think it's like the bible ie I can't recall him making an issue out of not being a psychopath? Please point me in the direction of where he has publicly stated this other than the OS and appearing in a tshirt with the slogan 'I'm not a psychopath'?
There's a big difference between violent offending and burglary/theft.
Don't forget JM acted as look out during the burglary and carried out a fraud/theft independent of JB. Would you label her a psychopath?
There is indeed a big difference Holly, which you and Bamber's other supporters all appear to miss.
Jeremy Bamber admitted to burgling his families caravan park and staging the scene. He claimed he did it to teach his family a lesson.
Burglary is a dishonest crime! A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
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There is indeed a big difference Holly, which you and Bamber's other supporters all appear to miss.
Jeremy Bamber admitted to burgling his families caravan park and staging the scene. He claimed he did it to teach his family a lesson.
Burglary is a dishonest crime! A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Also, offenders generally progress and a history of deviant behaviour is one of the criteria on the psychopathy check list.
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September 2013
"A REAL-life Cracker has told how she was forced to take out an injunction
against a crazed stalker.
Serial-killer expert Kerry Daynes was targeted after she appeared on the first
series of When Life Means Life, which airs on the Crime & Investigation
Network.
She said: “I have had problems from supporters of serial killers, torturers
and rapists.
“There has been some unwanted attention and I even had to take an injunction
out on someone who was stalking me.
“It is still ongoing at court but I came to the attention of someone connected
to mass murderer Jeremy Bamber.
“They were constantly pestering me on the internet and I had to take legal
action. https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/tv/1031939/murder-expert-says-she-is-being-stalked/
“It is scary but generally, by and large, people who recognise me tend to just
be interested in what I do.”
Does anyone know who the person was connected to Jeremy Bamber responsible for constantly pestering Kerry Dayne's? Please PM if you'd prefer
-
Many of you will recall Kerry Daynes' contribution to the tv programme 'Killing Mum and Dad'. Kerry is a forensic psychologist.
http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?5788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU
Dear Kerry
I am sure you will recall your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad' regarding the above. As an aide-memoire I have detailed your input as follows:
"It's likely that he felt incredibly rejected on many different fronts and that this caused him to feel that he desperatly wanted attention. He wanted to be loved but that if he actually attempted to get this he would be rejected again. This causes a terrible conflict for a child and one way of coping with it might be simply to detach. You detach from your emotions so you can't be hurt. What could of happened is that the emotional switches in Jeremy's brain could have been permanently jammed in the off position.
It's possible that these are the early signs that in actual fact that he has got psychopathic traits. So breaking rules, constantly breaking rules in many different ways. Also being sexually promiscious and really needing a high level of stimulation. They are very prone to boredom.
I think that is classic behaviour of a psychopath. I think that in essence Jeremy painted on his emotions. The emotions that he felt he should portray for that day. And then when he felt that nobody was watching him, or nobody that mattered was watching him, he simply took the mask off and put it to one side.
He certainly ticks an awful lot of the boxes for a psychopath. Here is somebody who is grandiose. He's arrogant. He seems to have very little emotion and what he does is very shallow and rather fake. He manipulates other people and he's quite happy to use people to meet his own needs.
I believe that in the past he has coped with overwhelming emotions by simply cutting off from them. And really he has done the same thing in response to his offences. Denial of his offences is the biggest form of cutting off you can have. In his mind he probably believes that he really didn't do it".
I would like to raise a few points and ask a few questions:
- Were you aware that Sheila Caffell (nee Bamber) and Jeremy Bamber were adopted by Nevill and June Bamber shortly after birth?
- It is reported that Sheila spent two weeks with her birth mother before spending the next 2/3 months in a children's home pending adoption.
- Were you aware that June Bamber suffered two breakdowns requiring in-patient psychiatric care before and after adopting Sheila? The first breakdown occurred in 1955 and according to June's friends was bound up with her inability to conceive children. The second breakdown occurred in 1959, at which time Sheila was circa 2 years of age, and according to June's psychiatrist was caused by her decision to adopt. The second breakdown required electroconvulsive treatment.
- Following June's second breakdown a full-time 17 year old nanny was employed to care for Sheila. During June's abscence I believe Nevill cared for Sheila with family support.
- Despite the above Mr and Mrs Bamber were approved to adopt Jeremy Bamber in 1961. Sheila's nanny continued to work full-time looking after Sheila and Jeremy until Jeremy was around 2 years of age at which time she worked as and when required until Jeremy was of school age. Other girls, including a French au pair, were employed on the same causual basis.
- Apparently Mr and Mrs Bamber told Sheila and Jeremy they were adopted when they were each around 7 years of age. Jeremy attended boarding school around the age of 8 and Sheila from the age of 10 . Their respective boarding schools were miles away from each other and White House Farm (the Bamber family home).
- Sheila was reunited with her birth mother and other birth family members some 3 months before the murders.
- Are you aware that a pscyhology exists peculiar to adoption? David Brodzinsky is argubably the world's expert on adoption and has authored and co-authored several books on the subject including 'The Psychology Of Adoption' co-authored with Dr Marshall Schechter, a child psychiatrist. The book includes the largest study of adopted children where the authors have brought together a group of leading researchers from various disciplines to explore the complex, interdisciplinary subject of adoption. Also 'The Lifelong Search For Self' based on Erik Erikson's model of psychosocial stages of development.
http://www.aclu-il.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CV-David-Brodzinsky.pdf
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Psychology-Adoption-David-Brodzinsky/dp/0195082737
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Being-Adopted-Lifelong-Search-Self/dp/0385414021
- I will take it as a given that you are fully conversant with attachment theory. Are you aware of the work of Dr Allan Schore? His research shows a correlation between attachment and suicide. I have linked below relevant presentations:
http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/AllanSchoreCV2012.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ236szRMD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB51V3fAAvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZQhCMy3vU
- Are you aware of the National Scientific Council for the developing child? Their research shows how maternal depression and neglect can adversely affect the developing child. The definition of neglect is inadequate responsiveness to the needs of young children by caregivers. I have linked below relevant material:
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/The-Science-of-Neglect-The-Persistent-Absence-of-Responsive-Care-Disrupts-the-Developing-Brain.pdf
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Maternal-Depression-Can-Undermine-Development.pdf
- I understand Jeremy has been assessed by numerous psychologists during his long incarceration and as far as I am aware no professional has identified any mental illness and/or personality disorder.
Surely my comments above are highly relevant to the Bamber family and yet you have not included any aspect in your contribution to 'Killing Mum and Dad'? I would also add that as far as I am aware the psychiatrist that treated June and Sheila privately, Dr Hugh Ferguson, did not at any stage of treating either woman make reference to any aspect of the above. Nor did he discuss any aspect of this with Jeremy's defence therefore jurors were denied full knowledge of the psychological backgrounds of the victims and defendent.
Thank you for taking the time to read my email.
I would welcome any comments you might wish to make.
Yours sincerely
16
Holly,
Why did you write to Kerry Daynes, saying you’d welcome her comments if you didn’t expect her to reply? I can’t imagine why you’d even expect her to read your biased and uneducated thoughts on her professional diagnosis of Jeremy Bamber. You’re not a psychologist, so why would she be interested in what you think?
Kerry Daynes is a leading Consultant Forensic Psychologist — you aren’t. Yet you hoped she’d reply to you...
Here’s her bio:
“Kerry Daynes is a Consultant Forensic Psychologist. She is often consulted in major police investigations and is a trusted government advisor concerning the safe management of high-risk individuals. Kerry's work has been widely reported on in the press. She also provides commentary for international television networks, including The History Channel, Discovery, CBS Reality, The Crime & Investigation Network and BBC International. Kerry is a mental health advocate and is a patron of the National Centre for Domestic Violence and Talking2Minds.”
All the points you were hoping she’d respond to are irrelevant and she’d have known the background — so you were telling her things she already knew. Didn’t you realise that?
Kerry would have known both Sheila and Jeremy were adopted shortly after birth. They weren’t adopted at a much later stage of their lives, when it could have been far more traumatic and more difficult for them to settle in.
All babies who are put up for adoption first go to a children’s home or foster parents’ for a few months, while parents’ wishing to adopt are selected and vetted to decide who’d be most suitable to adopt the child. That’s standard. And the process takes months. I’m not sure why you’ve mentioned it? It has no bearing on anything, and Kerry would have been well aware of that.
Your claim that June suffered a breakdown before adopting Sheila is the first Ive heard of it. Can you supply evidence of that? I’ve heard/seen absolutely nothing to support this claim of yours.
It’s well-known that June had a breakdown when Sheila was around two-years-old. But breakdowns can happen to anyone, and unless you’ve been privy to June’s psychiatric reports you’re in no position (especially as you aren’t qualified) to make judgement on how June’s breakdown came about, nor why.
The fact a nanny was employed to help care for Sheila was both a normal, caring decision, not to mention necessary. They were a wealthy family, and most wealthy families do have nannies. Biological parents’ often employ nannies/au pairs, so why do you consider that worthy of note? Au pairs are always young and usually from the continent, but they’re still vetted by the agencies, and often become an unofficial member of the family. The only reason au pairs often had a time limit of maybe six months or a year, was due to visa restrictions. So your inference that the Bambers’ had “several” points to something being untoward is wrong.
When the Bambers’ adopted Jeremy they would have gone through the same vetting process as before. Despite June’s one incidence of a breakdown, in which she was treated and discharged once fit again, the authorities clearly viewed them as suitable parents, particularly as Sheila was thriving, stable and well-cared for. I’m sure the fact they wanted a sibling for Sheila also proved they were happy with having one daughter, and wanted to add to their family which is natural.
When the Bambers’ sent the children to boarding school, distance was hardly an issue. Some children attend boarding school in different countries, not just different counties. I can’t see why you’re highlighting that? It’s perfectly normal, especially in wealthy families who believe boarding school will give their children the best education and set them up for life. Boarders usually come home each weekend, and of course, throughout all school holidays, and people such as, say, Kate Middleton’s parent’ never deemed it wrong sending their three children to board. Thousands of families do, if they can afford it and it suits everyone. They’ll often spend far better quality time when they come, too.
I don’t see what relevance it is that Sheila met her biological mother three months prior to Jeremy murdering her? That was simply down to the time it took for Sheila to track her down. It’s worth noting Sheila had found her biological uncle before she did her mother and became very close to him. He actually lived not that far from the Bambers’, and he welcomed her with open arms: they met up frequently and spoke on the phone regularly too. But what has this to do with Jeremy killing Sheila?
As for you asking Kerry if she’s conversant with Allan Schore, I suspect she may have laughed at that question. You’re writing to a Consultant Forensic Psychologist, Holly! Both his links and all the other links you sent to Kerry, which she’d know more about than you, were a complete waste of time. For example, you trying to suggest Sheila may have been suicidal because Schore believed he found some correlation between attachment and suicide, is again irrelevant. Because Sheila never committed suicide (Jeremy shot her dead) and if this attachment theory is correct, it also proves it doesn’t affect all children, because if anyone would have felt suicidal it would have been Jeremy — had he truly been innocent of killing his family. So the FACT neither Sheila or Jeremy ever attempted suicide proves Schore’s ideas can’t be relied upon because not all adopted children — or children who’ve had attachment problems — have committed suicide.
You’ve also given wrong information, and Kerry would have known that. Jeremy Bamber was diagnosed a psychopath when on remand. He has a severe Personality Disorder and the psychiatrist said Jeremy was “evil to the core”, a “pathological liar”, and he believed 100% that Jeremy murdered his family.
And I’d say the reason Dr Hugh Ferguson didn’t mention these details you’ve brought up, is that they’re completely irrelevant, of no consequence, and much of what you’re trying to infer stems from the desperate imagination of someone trying to help set a guilty murderer free by bringing up insignificant, groundless waffle.
No wonder Kerry didn’t reply to you...
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Watched a documentary last night about Ian Stewart who murdered Helen Bailey; his partner and a children's author. Stewart threw her body in a cess pit under the garage. They also found her beloved dachshund dog in the cess pit with her, evidence showed that he drugged Helen - they possible strangled or smothered her, threw her body in the pit then threw the dogs toy in after her and had the dog jump in to fetch it. Kerry Daynes commented on how killing the much loved pet further demonstrated his callousness - which reminded me of someone else. A VERY SAD case and an evil b**t**d.
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Watched a documentary last night about Ian Stewart who murdered Helen Bailey; his partner and a children's author. Stewart threw her body in a cess pit under the garage. They also found her beloved dachshund dog in the cess pit with her, evidence showed that he drugged Helen - they possible strangled or smothered her, threw her body in the pit then threw the dogs toy in after her and had the dog jump in to fetch it. Kerry Daynes commented on how killing the much loved pet further demonstrated his callousness - which reminded me of someone else. A VERY SAD case and an evil b**t**d.
Another one for the "Inheritance Murder Hall of Infamy"...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11253.msg584339#msg584339 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11253.msg584339#msg584339)
Helen Bailey's final book is amusing in places, even though it's a recollection the death of her first husband, John Sinfield, and her life thereafter.
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There is indeed a big difference Holly, which you and Bamber's other supporters all appear to miss.
Jeremy Bamber admitted to burgling his families caravan park and staging the scene. He claimed he did it to teach his family a lesson.
Burglary is a dishonest crime! A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Burglary is dishonest and the burglar deceitful? Only if you lie about it, surely, otherwise all crimes are dishonest aren't they? It doesn't automatically follow that a criminal is also a liar. Your logic is flawed.
Speeding is a crime.
-
Holly,
Why did you write to Kerry Daynes, saying you’d welcome her comments if you didn’t expect her to reply? I can’t imagine why you’d even expect her to read your biased and uneducated thoughts on her professional diagnosis of Jeremy Bamber. You’re not a psychologist, so why would she be interested in what you think?
Kerry Daynes is a leading Consultant Forensic Psychologist — you aren’t. Yet you hoped she’d reply to you...
Here’s her bio:
“Kerry Daynes is a Consultant Forensic Psychologist. She is often consulted in major police investigations and is a trusted government advisor concerning the safe management of high-risk individuals. Kerry's work has been widely reported on in the press. She also provides commentary for international television networks, including The History Channel, Discovery, CBS Reality, The Crime & Investigation Network and BBC International. Kerry is a mental health advocate and is a patron of the National Centre for Domestic Violence and Talking2Minds.”
All the points you were hoping she’d respond to are irrelevant and she’d have known the background — so you were telling her things she already knew. Didn’t you realise that?
Kerry would have known both Sheila and Jeremy were adopted shortly after birth. They weren’t adopted at a much later stage of their lives, when it could have been far more traumatic and more difficult for them to settle in.
All babies who are put up for adoption first go to a children’s home or foster parents’ for a few months, while parents’ wishing to adopt are selected and vetted to decide who’d be most suitable to adopt the child. That’s standard. And the process takes months. I’m not sure why you’ve mentioned it? It has no bearing on anything, and Kerry would have been well aware of that.
In the C of E mother and baby homes it was standard procedure for biological mothers to care for their child for six weeks, after which the adopters came to the home and collected the baby to take home with them.
Your claim that June suffered a breakdown before adopting Sheila is the first Ive heard of it. Can you supply evidence of that? I’ve heard/seen absolutely nothing to support this claim of yours.
It’s well-known that June had a breakdown when Sheila was around two-years-old. But breakdowns can happen to anyone, and unless you’ve been privy to June’s psychiatric reports you’re in no position (especially as you aren’t qualified) to make judgement on how June’s breakdown came about, nor why.
June's first mental breakdown was in 1955. [CAL page 20]
The fact a nanny was employed to help care for Sheila was both a normal, caring decision, not to mention necessary. They were a wealthy family, and most wealthy families do have nannies. Biological parents’ often employ nannies/au pairs, so why do you consider that worthy of note? Au pairs are always young and usually from the continent, but they’re still vetted by the agencies, and often become an unofficial member of the family. The only reason au pairs often had a time limit of maybe six months or a year, was due to visa restrictions. So your inference that the Bambers’ had “several” points to something being untoward is wrong.
When the Bambers’ adopted Jeremy they would have gone through the same vetting process as before. Despite June’s one incidence of a breakdown, in which she was treated and discharged once fit again, the authorities clearly viewed them as suitable parents, particularly as Sheila was thriving, stable and well-cared for. I’m sure the fact they wanted a sibling for Sheila also proved they were happy with having one daughter, and wanted to add to their family which is natural.
When the Bambers’ sent the children to boarding school, distance was hardly an issue. Some children attend boarding school in different countries, not just different counties. I can’t see why you’re highlighting that? It’s perfectly normal, especially in wealthy families who believe boarding school will give their children the best education and set them up for life. Boarders usually come home each weekend, and of course, throughout all school holidays, and people such as, say, Kate Middleton’s parent’ never deemed it wrong sending their three children to board. Thousands of families do, if they can afford it and it suits everyone. They’ll often spend far better quality time when they come, too.
I don’t see what relevance it is that Sheila met her biological mother three months prior to Jeremy murdering her? That was simply down to the time it took for Sheila to track her down. It’s worth noting Sheila had found her biological uncle before she did her mother and became very close to him. He actually lived not that far from the Bambers’, and he welcomed her with open arms: they met up frequently and spoke on the phone regularly too. But what has this to do with Jeremy killing Sheila?
As for you asking Kerry if she’s conversant with Allan Schore, I suspect she may have laughed at that question. You’re writing to a Consultant Forensic Psychologist, Holly! Both his links and all the other links you sent to Kerry, which she’d know more about than you, were a complete waste of time. For example, you trying to suggest Sheila may have been suicidal because Schore believed he found some correlation between attachment and suicide, is again irrelevant. Because Sheila never committed suicide (Jeremy shot her dead) and if this attachment theory is correct, it also proves it doesn’t affect all children, because if anyone would have felt suicidal it would have been Jeremy — had he truly been innocent of killing his family. So the FACT neither Sheila or Jeremy ever attempted suicide proves Schore’s ideas can’t be relied upon because not all adopted children — or children who’ve had attachment problems — have committed suicide.
You’ve also given wrong information, and Kerry would have known that. Jeremy Bamber was diagnosed a psychopath when on remand. He has a severe Personality Disorder and the psychiatrist said Jeremy was “evil to the core”, a “pathological liar”, and he believed 100% that Jeremy murdered his family.
And I’d say the reason Dr Hugh Ferguson didn’t mention these details you’ve brought up, is that they’re completely irrelevant, of no consequence, and much of what you’re trying to infer stems from the desperate imagination of someone trying to help set a guilty murderer free by bringing up insignificant, groundless waffle.
No wonder Kerry didn’t reply to you...
Just a couple of factual points above.
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Burglary is dishonest and the burglar deceitful? Only if you lie about it, surely, otherwise all crimes are dishonest aren't they? It doesn't automatically follow that a criminal is also a liar. Your logic is flawed.
Speeding is a crime.
He did lie about it, admitting it only after Julie told police who was responsible.
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He did lie about it, admitting it only after Julie told police who was responsible.
Yes, I know he did. I was taking exception to this particular assertion: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
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Yes, I know he did. I was taking exception to this particular assertion: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Well, they pretty much are unless they leave calling card with their name and address.
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Well, they pretty much are unless they leave calling card with their name and address.
A burglar is a liar?
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A burglar is a liar?
They are deceitful, they bark into someone's house, steal stuff in the hope of getting away with it. Unless they are admitting to it to all unsoundly then they are being deceitful. But that is true of any crime. They may not actually lying to the victim simply by the nature of the crime but in not admitting it, it's deceitful - especially in Bamber's case because he stood there while the family discusses it and said nothing.
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They are deceitful, they bark into someone's house, steal stuff in the hope of getting away with it. Unless they are admitting to it to all unsoundly then they are being deceitful. But that is true of any crime. They may not actually lying to the victim simply by the nature of the crime but in not admitting it, it's deceitful - especially in Bamber's case because he stood there while the family discusses it and said nothing.
What? No. I'm not even talking about Bamber.
Not admitting it? That would only occur if they got caught. They might also be a liar, and a Scorpio and C of E, but not always.
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What? No. I'm not even talking about Bamber.
Not admitting it? That would only occur if they got caught. They might also be a liar, and a Scorpio and C of E, but not always.
OK - burglars - honest as the day is long! @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Yes, I know he did. I was taking exception to this particular assertion: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Wasn’t this debated across the two forums (red & blue) when Simon Halls ‘zenith burglary’ was found out, circa 2012/13?
This forum arguing Hall was a liar
The other forum suggesting the omission wasn’t relevant to the murder?
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Wasn’t this debated across the two forums (red & blue) when Simon Halls ‘zenith burglary’ was found out?
This forum arguing Hall was a liar
The other forum suggesting the omission wasn’t relevant to the murder?
I don't know.
The point being, as emotive it obviously is for you, a burglar is not automatically also a liar. Obviously dishonesty is a useful trait, but not a prerequisite.
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I don't know.
The point being, as emotive it obviously is for you, a burglar is not automatically also a liar. Obviously dishonesty is a useful trait, but not a prerequisite.
Well according to the consensus of this forum back in 2012/13 it was?
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Bamber is a liar, a pathological one at that.
He only admitted to his dishonest act because he’d been arrested by police after he’d murdered 5 family members.
As per one of my previous post,
”The fact Bamber robbed his own family business and admitted to it whilst under police caution gave him motive”for the 5 murders
In carrying out the burglary his culpability could be seen as, and not limited to
* Breach of a high degree of trust or responsibility
* Sophisticated nature of offence/significant planning
* Deliberately targeting victim on basis of vulnerability
The Harm caused in carrying out the dishonest act could have showed, and again not limited to
* High level of inconvenience caused to the victim or others
* Emotional distress
* Fear/loss of confidence caused by the crime
* Impact of theft on a business
There were aggravating factors to consider also, like for example,
* Offender motivated by intention to cause harm or out of revenge
* Attempts to conceal/dispose of evidence
There’s a user guide here by the sentencing council on the offence of theft
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/theft-general/
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Well according to the consensus of this forum back in 2012/13 it was?
Not in my opinion it's not.
-
Bamber is a liar, a pathological one at that.
He only admitted to his dishonest act because he’d been arrested by police after he’d murdered 5 family members.
As per one of my previous post, “The fact Bamber robbed his own family business and admitted to it whilst under police caution gave him motive” for the 5 murders
In carrying out the burglary his culpability could be seen as, and not limited to
* Breach of a high degree of trust or responsibility
* Sophisticated nature of offence/significant planning
* Deliberately targeting victim on basis of vulnerability
The Harm caused in carrying out the dishonest act could have showed, and again not limited to
* High level of inconvenience caused to the victim or others
* Emotional distress
* Fear/loss of confidence caused by the crime
* Impact of theft on a business
There were aggravating factors to consider also, like for example,
* Offender motivated by intention to cause harm or out of revenge
* Attempts to conceal/dispose of evidence
There’s a user guide here by the sentencing council on the offence of theft
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/theft-general/
Yes, we know.
Are we still arguing the whole burglar point?
-
Not in my opinion it's not.
‘There is no universally accepted definition of lying to others’
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/
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Yes, we know.
Are we still arguing the whole burglar point?
Looks that way
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Looks that way
OK, so what are you saying?
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OK, so what are you saying?
What are you saying?
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What are you saying?
Well, I'm saying that the logic employed earlier - burglar - dishonest - liar is not an absolute.
You said: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Sure, being a liar is a useful trait when fencing ill-gotten gains, but not all burglars are liars.
In this case, Jeremy Bamber, convicted mass murderer, probable psychopath, is an admitted burglar and an admitted liar, granted. But it's not a prerequisite.
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Well, I'm saying that the logic employed earlier - burglar - dishonest - liar is not an absolute.
You said: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Sure, being a liar is a useful trait when fencing ill-gotten gains, but not all burglars are liars.
In this case, Jeremy Bamber, convicted mass murderer, probable psychopath, is an admitted burglar and an admitted liar, granted. But it's not a prerequisite.
Think we should just agree that Bamber is both and move on?
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Think we should just agree that Bamber is both and move on?
Let's do that.
-
Let's do that.
8((()*/
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Burglary is dishonest and the burglar deceitful? Only if you lie about it, surely, otherwise all crimes are dishonest aren't they? It doesn't automatically follow that a criminal is also a liar. Your logic is flawed.
Speeding is a crime.
Okay 8((()*/
We’re debating Bamber, not someone who’s been done for speeding.
My words (or speech) weren’t ‘dishonest’ to me therefore my logic at the time wasn’t flawed.
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Just a couple of factual points above.
I have a very close family member who was adopted, through the same C of E agency.
She was placed with a foster family for a few months before being adopted by her parents.
Perhaps back in 1957 it was different, but I am speaking from experience.
Do you have a source where June had a breakdown in 1955?
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I don't know.
The point being, as emotive it obviously is for you, a burglar is not automatically also a liar. Obviously dishonesty is a useful trait, but not a prerequisite.
I disagree that burglars don’t lie.
Why would someone capable of stealing people’s personal and sentimental property be too righteous to lie?
I doubt if the police asked a burglar if he’d broken into a house he’d feel compelled to admit it, rather than lie and deny it.
As an aside, burglars usually graduate to break ins: they start off with petty thieving and work up. That’s why I’ve always believed Jeremy was a thief for many years, albeit stealing the odd £20 out of June’s purse, possibly shoplifting low cost items when there was opportunity...
He’s rotten through and through
Devoid of morals, decency, respect, and above all, normal emotions.
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I disagree that burglars don’t lie.
Why would someone capable of stealing people’s personal and sentimental property be too righteous to lie?
I doubt if the police asked a burglar if he’d broken into a house he’d feel compelled to admit it, rather than lie and deny it.
As an aside, burglars usually graduate to break ins: they start off with petty thieving and work up. That’s why I’ve always believed Jeremy was a thief for many years, albeit stealing the odd £20 out of June’s purse, possibly shoplifting low cost items when there was opportunity...
He’s rotten through and through
Devoid of morals, decency, respect, and above all, normal emotions.
I was discussing the concept that a burglar is dishonest, ergo is a liar, as per Nicholas' assertion.
Not all burglars will be liars, in my opinion.
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I was discussing the concept that a burglar is dishonest, ergo is a liar, as per Nicholas' assertion.
Not all burglars will be liars, in my opinion.
The act of burglary is certainly dishonest. Would an honest person commit a dishonest act?
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The act of burglary is certainly dishonest. Would an honest person commit a dishonest act?
Yeh, I mean, OK. I was referring to them all being 'liars'. But let's move on.
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He did lie about it, admitting it only after Julie told police who was responsible.
Although to be fair, the Boutflours did suspect he was involved in the theft at the caravan park and also the arson which occurred there but June wouldn't believe them. Her Jeremy could do no wrong in her eyes.
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Although to be fair, the Boutflours did suspect he was involved in the theft at the caravan park and also the arson which occurred there but June wouldn't believe them. Her Jeremy could do no wrong in her eyes.
So she claimed publicly. To do otherwise might have called into question her own parenting skills. However, in the small hours of the morning, Nevill sound asleep, when there was only her and God, who was ever present in her life, to lie to, would there have been any point in her denying what she must have suspected to be true?
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So she claimed publicly. To do otherwise might have called into question her own parenting skills. However, in the small hours of the morning, Nevill sound asleep, when there was only her and God, who was ever present in her life, to lie to, would there have been any point in her denying what she must have suspected to be true?
It must have been a dreadful realisation for them both.
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It must have been a dreadful realisation for them both.
Going with her belief in an all seeing, all knowing God, there was never any point in her lying to Him. Going with confession being good for the soul, it must have been a huge relief for her to finally acknowledge the truth and off load the burden.
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Well, I'm saying that the logic employed earlier - burglar - dishonest - liar is not an absolute.
You said: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!
Sure, being a liar is a useful trait when fencing ill-gotten gains, but not all burglars are liars.
In this case, Jeremy Bamber, convicted mass murderer, probable psychopath, is an admitted burglar and an admitted liar, granted. But it's not a prerequisite.
What do you mean when you say JB is an admitted liar?
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I have a very close family member who was adopted, through the same C of E agency.
She was placed with a foster family for a few months before being adopted by her parents.
Perhaps back in 1957 it was different, but I am speaking from experience.
Do you have a source where June had a breakdown in 1955?
CAL from June's friends.
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Although to be fair, the Boutflours did suspect he was involved in the theft at the caravan park and also the arson which occurred there but June wouldn't believe them. Her Jeremy could do no wrong in her eyes.
Arson?!
What was that?!
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Going with her belief in an all seeing, all knowing God, there was never any point in her lying to Him. Going with confession being good for the soul, it must have been a huge relief for her to finally acknowledge the truth and off load the burden.
June and Nevill must have felt tormented that they’d seeked children to love and raise, and whilst they must have been heartbroken that Sheila became unwell, what must have REALLY crucified them that Jeremy grew into a thieving, devious, nasty, disgraceful, disrespectful, cruel lying p*g. Of course they’d have taken that personally....he gave them hell.
June may have been domineering, aloof, distant — but she wasn’t evil, cruel or wicked.
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I was discussing the concept that a burglar is dishonest, ergo is a liar, as per Nicholas' assertion.
Not all burglars will be liars, in my opinion.
That’s your opinion, General, which you’re entitled to.
But I disagree.
Burglars are always lowlifes, and they’d lie about absolutely anything to save their skin.
But we’ve moved on from that...so we’ll agree to disagree.
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CAL from June's friends.
Link please
Page/chapter
Thank you in advance
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Link please
Page/chapter
Thank you in advance
I'm sorry I gave my copy to a friend.
Caroline and G-Unit have the book.
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June and Nevill must have felt tormented that they’d seemed children to love and raise, and whilst they must have been heartbroken that Sheila became unwell, what must have REALLY crucified them that Jeremy grew into a thieving, devious, nasty, disgraceful, disrespectful, cruel lying p*g. Of course they’d have taken that personally....he gave them hell.
June may have been domineering, aloof, distant — but she wasn’t evil, cruel or wicked.
You're waaay off, there, Spy. She may not have known how to be a mother, but June has a reputation for being unfailingly kind, gentle and shy, reserved, rather than aloof. But you're correct in that she wasn't evil, cruel, or wicked.
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I'm sorry I gave my copy to a friend.
Caroline and G-Unit have the book.
Caroline, G-Unit,
Any chance of telling me which chapter/page what Holly claims above is on please? :)
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You're waaay off, there, Spy. She may not have known how to be a mother, but June has a reputation for being unfailingly kind, gentle and shy, reserved, rather than aloof. But you're correct in that she wasn't evil, cruel, or wicked.
Actually, April...what I meant when I said “aloof” I was meaning “distant”
I possibly phrased it wrongly...
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Caroline, G-Unit,
Any chance of telling me which chapter/page what Holly claims above is on please? :)
CAL, from epub...
"But six years of marriage without pregnancy had a profound effect on June. Those closest to the couple were under the impression that the difficulty originally lay with Nevill; John Wilkin recalled the strain was such that June suffered a nervous breakdown in 1955. Following treatment at a private psychiatric hospital in London, she and Nevill lived with the Wilkins in Goldhanger for three months before returning to White House Farm."
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CAL, from epub...
"But six years of marriage without pregnancy had a profound effect on June. Those closest to the couple were under the impression that the difficulty originally lay with Nevill; John Wilkin recalled the strain was such that June suffered a nervous breakdown in 1955. Following treatment at a private psychiatric hospital in London, she and Nevill lived with the Wilkins in Goldhanger for three months before returning to White House Farm."
Ah, thank you, Myster!
I do have the book, actually, but a friend’s reading it at the mo...
Well that’s cleared that up...apologies to G-Unit and Holly. I don’t recall reading that, which is odd...I’d remember something like that normally
Whatever, June clearly had MH problems but not knowing what she was actually suffering from then, it’s hard to comment. In 1955 the world was a very different place, so someone who was, say, suffering anxiety or depression — and they had money — would go for hospital treatment via a Harley Street doctor rather than seeing their GP and exploring different treatments.
Sounds like she was depressed due to not conceiving, which is natural, I guess. But she definitely suffered bouts of depression throughout her life, it seems, maybe when things got too much for her...
A sure sign someone’s depressed is when they neglect their home, and though they had a housekeeper they can only do so much...going by the photos it looked like June was too depressed to care about it.
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Ah, thank you, Myster!
I do have the book, actually, but a friend’s reading it at the mo...
Well that’s cleared that up...apologies to G-Unit and Holly. I don’t recall reading that, which is odd...I’d remember something like that normally
Whatever, June clearly had MH problems but not knowing what she was actually suffering from then, it’s hard to comment. In 1955 the world was a very different place, so someone who was, say, suffering anxiety or depression — and they had money — would go for hospital treatment via a Harley Street doctor rather than seeing their GP and exploring different treatments.
Sounds like she was depressed due to not conceiving, which is natural, I guess. But she definitely suffered bouts of depression throughout her life, it seems, maybe when things got too much for her...
A sure sign someone’s depressed is when they neglect their home, and though they had a housekeeper they can only do so much...going by the photos it looked like June was too depressed to care about it.
I believe Dr Ferguson attested that June had a breakdown bought on by her decision to adopt Sheila. I've always found this to be a strange explanation and not one which, for me, rings true. I concede that it may just be his phraseology. I can understand depression caused by her inability to conceive. I can understand depression caused by inability to bond with her adopted baby and I believe this to have been the more likely cause.
I'm curious as to why you believe "she definitely suffered bouts of depression throughout her life". She'd have been unable to accomplish her highly skilled war work had such been the case. It's possible that she suffered bouts of deep sadness which had causation, but that's very different from clinical depression, which requires no trigger, and it's FAR too sweeping a statement to claim the June neglected her home when the only picture we have is the kitchen which looks exactly like every other old farmhouse kitchen I've been in. We're given no idea what the rest of the house looks like so I believe it to be entirely inappropriate to claim that June was too depressed to care about it. Given how busy a person she was, it's MORE likely that, like I, she preferred to be involved with, and put her energy into, anything other than domesticity.
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I believe Dr Ferguson attested that June had a breakdown bought on by her decision to adopt Sheila. I've always found this to be a strange explanation and not one which, for me, rings true. I concede that it may just be his phraseology. I can understand depression caused by her inability to conceive. I can understand depression caused by inability to bond with her adopted baby and I believe this to have been the more likely cause.
I'm curious as to why you believe "she definitely suffered bouts of depression throughout her life". She'd have been unable to accomplish her highly skilled war work had such been the case. It's possible that she suffered bouts of deep sadness which had causation, but that's very different from clinical depression, which requires no trigger, and it's FAR too sweeping a statement to claim the June neglected her home when the only picture we have is the kitchen which looks exactly like every other old farmhouse kitchen I've been in. We're given no idea what the rest of the house looks like so I believe it to be entirely inappropriate to claim that June was too depressed to care about it. Given how busy a person she was, it's MORE likely that, like I, she preferred to be involved with, and put her energy into, anything other than domesticity.
I think you may be right — Dr Ferguson saying June was depressed due to adopting Sheila does seem odd when she wanted a family so much. Maybe they took that sentence out of the notes, and there was more to it than that. I agree with you, I suspect she was at first excited and on a high knowing they were about to take Sheila, but maybe she didn’t anticipate it takes time to bond. Even biological mothers can suffer PN depression and take time to bond, but in June’s case it was possibly that she (wrongly) felt bad for not feeling motherly straight away — which she wouldn’t have. And babies are hard work. The disrupted sleeping, changing nappies, teething, crying...maybe she wondered what she’d done? It’s very sad for everyone.
I should have rephrased “June had hours of depression throughout her life” I was wrong. What I meant was, and should have said, was that June did have three breakdowns, and I don’t know if they were due to depression, but I’d guess they were along those lines as she wasn’t diagnosed with a MH illness as such. Maybe she had anxiety/depression...she had something that made her breakdown.
Again, you’re right about the house: I’ve only seen a few photos so have no idea what the rest was like. I based my opinion on some things I saw in the photos and somehow thought she just wasn’t the domesticated type, and there’s nothing wrong in that.
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Thanks.