UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on December 23, 2015, 07:09:21 PM
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The judge said in his summing up that it was “a fact” that the moderator was on the rifle in the kitchen. New evidence from Dr Caruso, a leading burns specialist confirms that Nevill’s burn injuries were made by the end of the rifle’s barrel'.
This is a quote from the OS. There has been a lot debate about where Neville's burn marks came from. Now it seems Bamber himself is agreeing it came from the rifle. It certainly didn't come from the moderator, as that was found with blood, paint and a hair on.
If the OS are correct, who is most likely to create these burn marks on Neville with the rifle ?
After Neville's 'tremendous' fight for life, a calculated Bamber is likely to check on Neville prior to his exit. After staging the scene and putting the moderator away. A strong ox like Neville may still be alive and Bamber couldn't have that. Burning Neville's back with a red hot rifle is as good a way as any other to check for signs of life.
Maybe Neville was still alive after four bullets and the kitchen fight. The three burn marks could explain three extra shots in the kitchen. Neville moving a bit after each burn, before finally being lifeless after the eighth shot. Would Sheila really do this ? Or the three burn marks may have been made in quick succession.
Would Sheila have the time to inflict these burn marks, as she was supposed to have done a hell of a lot of other things in a short space of time.
Would she be composed and calculated enough to do this ?
Would Sheila be clever enough to think of this method ? She was in a crazy rage and would have to think 'how do I make sure my dad is dead.?'
Was she really that bothered whether Neville was dead ? She was just about to kill herself anyway, upstairs.
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I don't see how Dr Caruso (if correct) saying the burn marks were inflicted by the rifle without the moderator, benefits Bamber.
It just means Bamber had already put the silencer away.
It's really causing more harm than good as people will ask who is more likely to cause these burn marks to a dead or almost dead person.
Similar to the Arizona tests, it's spending a lot of money for nothing. Everyone already agreed if the burn marks were caused by a rifle, it would be without a moderator attached.
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To my mind it doesn't make much sense for JB or SC to have inflicted the burns on purpose either to check for life or something sadistic. If either why was NB the only victim singled out?
I think there might be some mileage in Myster's theory re hot casings. If you Google 'hot casings burn skin gunshot' it seems it's a common phenomenon. You can see numerous clips on YouTube too.
I don't have CAL's book to hand right now but Dr Vanezis said something like the reason the burn marks appear dark is that NB might have been near death or dead when they occurred and that apparently changes the appearance of burn marks.
Do the sizes and shapes correspond?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.msg4999#msg4999
You can see on YouTube Clips those affected are able to quickly shake the casings out of clothing. Sadly not so for NB. He was found with his head forward so it seems a casing might have fallen down his pyjama jacket. This might also account for the fact only 3 casings were found in the kitchen. Although I'm not aware of it showing up radiographically. I assume victims are radiographed clothed but removed from body bags?
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Just coming round after yesterday's party and an excess of Westons scrumpy (7.5%), so excuse if speech is a bit slurred...
There was no need to test for signs of death after those four devastating head shots.
You might be flogging my casing burns theory to death. We don't know how accurately a casing matches the size and shape of the marks. If it was the cause, the casing might have dropped to the floor having been trapped between skin and loose-fitting pyjama top (when Nevill's body was moved by the undertaker/mortuary staff) and subsequently carried upstairs on somebody's boot sole, then released (although that idea seems a bit fanciful to me).
Vanezis stated recently that they could have been inflicted through fairly thick material (of the pyjama top?) rather than directly on the flesh... but M&S (St.Michael) pyjama fabric wasn't particularly thick in '85. I had a pair myself. As the marks are near the nape of his neck, the loose top was more likely to have been pulled back to reveal bare skin before the burns, if that's what they are, were inflicted. But the Vanezis theory contradicts Malcolm Fletcher's view that rifle end plus moderator never reached burning temperature even after firing "a load of times". It was only warm to touch when the actual Anschutz was tested in '85/86. (CAL, pg.193)
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The burn marks hurt Jeremy to the extent that even his experts admit it could not have happened "naturally" during the course of events. Someone had to intentionally heat something sufficiently with the intent to use it to burn Nevill. It is far more likely Jeremy would do such for staging purposes after everyone was dead than Sheila would heat it in advance to use before or after they were all dead.
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If Sheila was going to burn Neville's back, would she bother pulling up his pyjama top ? She wouldn't care if Neville's top was damaged.
Bamber is more likely to pull Neville's top up. Having burnt hole marks on Neville's pyjama top highlights it was done on the night. By someone calculated and in control enough to check for signs of life - Bamber.
Bamber was hoping the burn marks on Neville's skin would not become an issue. If it was, no one could know what caused them, or when. Although it now seems he is agreeing it was caused on the night, by the rifle head.
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Just coming round after yesterday's party and an excess of Westons scrumpy (7.5%), so excuse if speech is a bit slurred...
There was no need to test for signs of death after those four devastating head shots.
You might be flogging my casing burns theory to death. We don't know how accurately a casing matches the size and shape of the marks. If it was the cause, the casing might have dropped to the floor having been trapped between skin and loose-fitting pyjama top (when Nevill's body was moved by the undertaker/mortuary staff) and subsequently carried upstairs on somebody's boot sole, then released (although that idea seems a bit fanciful to me).
Vanezis stated recently that they could have been inflicted through fairly thick material (of the pyjama top?) rather than directly on the flesh... but M&S (St.Michael) pyjama fabric wasn't particularly thick in '85. I had a pair myself. As the marks are near the nape of his neck, the loose top was more likely to have been pulled back to reveal bare skin before the burns, if that's what they are, were inflicted. But the Vanezis theory contradicts Malcolm Fletcher's view that rifle end plus moderator never reached burning temperature even after firing "a load of times". It was only warm to touch when the actual Anschutz was tested in '85/86. (CAL, pg.193)
Did you read my hangover prevention post?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6902.msg295673#msg295673
NGB suggested the perp might have inflicted the burns to test for life/death?
CAL's book states Dr Vanezis was keen to have ballistics at PM/SoC as they all needed experience due to the low number of firearms cases. The fact Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Malcolm Fletcher, Snr Scientific Officer (ballistics of sorts), are unable to agree 30 years on re the burns is indeed a worrying feature of the case.
I think your theory should be explored as it sounds the most plausible to me. See these clips. One notable difference is that the individuals are able to quickly shake out the hot casings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ1Vz-ii9n8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGczM7y7BA - I hate tatoos 8)><(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWO-EzoIbSs
http://www.reviewsofthings.com/guns/hot-bullet-casing-can-burn.html
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Did you read my hangover prevention post?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6902.msg295673#msg295673
NGB suggested the perp might have inflicted the burns to test for life/death?
CAL's book states Dr Vanezis was keen to have ballistics at PM/SoC as they all needed experience due to the low number of firearms cases. The fact Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Malcolm Fletcher, Snr Scientific Officer (ballistics of sorts), are unable to agree 30 years on re the burns is indeed a worrying feature of the case.
I think your theory should be explored as it sounds the most plausible to me. See these clips. One notable difference is that the individuals are able to quickly shake out the hot casings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ1Vz-ii9n8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGczM7y7BA - I hate tatoos 8)><(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWO-EzoIbSs
http://www.reviewsofthings.com/guns/hot-bullet-casing-can-burn.html
Casings would not make burns like those. They look like they were made by a poker or taser.
I suggested in the past it is possible that the burns were to see if he was still alive and would move but after 4 shots to the head you would think that such would not be necessary. It should be readily apparent he was dead. Someone would have to take the time to heat a poker or what have you to use. Maybe he was hoping police would think that only a crazy person would take the time to heat something to check if he was dead and thus that it would help implicate Sheila. we never figured out exactly what he was hoping to suggest or accomplish because he never told Julie and he can't very well suggest she was testing whether he was still alive with a poker without giving away he had done it because how would he know?
So the burns will remain one of the mysteries we never solve.
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Casings would not make burns like those. They look like they were made by a poker or taser.
I suggested in the past it is possible that the burns were to see if he was still alive and would move but after 4 shots to the head you would think that such would not be necessary. It should be readily apparent he was dead. Someone would have to take the time to heat a poker or what have you to use. Maybe he was hoping police would think that only a crazy person would take the time to heat something to check if he was dead and thus that it would help implicate Sheila. we never figured out exactly what he was hoping to suggest or accomplish because he never told Julie and he can't very well suggest she was testing whether he was still alive with a poker without giving away he had done it because how would he know?
So the burns will remain one of the mysteries we never solve.
What do you mean in terms of shape. size, colour? As I said in a previous post when CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis he suggested the marks were dark due to the fact NB was dead, or nearly dead, when they occurred.
If JB was the perp and murdered out of greed why would he hang around heating up an instrument to inflict burns? If SC was the perp why would she single NB out for such treatment?
Hot casings make perfect sense to me. We don't hear about such burns in this country as those that have access to firearms are usually well protected by clothing. The females in the clips were all wearing skimpy tops which could be considered akin to NB's pyjama top especially if his head was forward thus exposing his neck.
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What do you mean in terms of shape. size, colour? As I said in a previous post when CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis he suggested the marks were dark due to the fact NB was dead, or nearly dead, when they occurred.
If JB was the perp and murdered out of greed why would he hang around heating up an instrument to inflict burns? If SC was the perp why would she single NB out for such treatment?
Hot casings make perfect sense to me. We don't hear about such burns in this country as those that have access to firearms are usually well protected by clothing. The females in the clips were all wearing skimpy tops which could be considered akin to NB's pyjama top especially if his head was forward thus exposing his neck.
Casings burns don't look like the marks on Nevill. They are shaped like the casing itself and are much more superficial than Nevill's burns. The casings eject to the right which means they would be in front of Nevill's head not to the left of his body let alone to go down his shirt. This is your typical casing burn:
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/burn.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/DEG169/media/burn.jpg.html)
Sometimes the shape of the case is very well defined like this other times less well defined you just see a red mark but it doesn't burn through in the way Nevill's skin is singed this is more of a tattoo so to speak.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZGIgb.jpg)
We know Jeremy was staging the scene. He moved Sheila and stuck the gun on her, he moved the Bible around eventually placing it in the pool of her blood. It certainly looks like his body was staged and that he didn't get in the position he died in naturally. The cushions were used to try to keep the blood flow in check. What he had in mind with the burns will go to the grave with him because no one has been able to figure out for sure what he was trying to accomplish. There is no way to get inside his head to see what his frame of reference was. Obviously whatever he was hoping to convey failed because everyone has been baffled for decades.
For all we know he erroneously thought the gun could burn flesh like that after being fired so burned him with the poker, hid the poker in the closet with the moderator and was hoping police would think she was marching him at gunpoint with the rifle in his back. When criminals have wrong ideas it often screws them but sometime police remain mystified and never figure out what the intention was.
We can guess the Bible was supposed to suggest she killed out of some crazy religious motive but why did he open it, get blood on it then close it and reopen it to the same page creating a mirror image and then stick it in the pool of blood? It would have been better by her waist because that is what someone would do if reading it then putting it down. He just associated reading with face so stuck it near her face it seems. What was with the opening and closing? Was it intentional or an accident? Who the hell knows what he was thinking for sure.
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If the end of the rifle was heated for a couple of minutes in the Aga, surely it would be hot enough to cause the burn marks. Without any significant damage to the rifle end.
Bamber's own expert and the results from the Arizona tests certainly think so.
Who is more likely to -
Kill everyone inside WHF. Then heat the rifle, pull up Neville's top and check for signs of life.
I'm not sure the silencer would be strong enough to take being heated for two minutes prior to inflicting the burn marks. Anyway Bamber would have taken it off while killing Sheila, after realising the rifle with the silencer on was too long for her. Burning Neville's back was probably one of the last things Bamber would do prior to exiting WHF.
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Did you read my hangover prevention post?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6902.msg295673#msg295673 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6902.msg295673#msg295673)
Hangover cures?... taking two paracetamol is the only one you've written about. About as daft as downing daily aspirin to prevent heart attacks, but causing stomach ulcers instead. I tried some hair off the dog once, but it stuck at the back of my throat and made me bark and wretch.
And yes, I do speed-read every post for any hint that naughty nun has had a glorious epiphany and miraculous conversion, but unfortunately no sign just yet... though it will happen someday, of that I'm sure.
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I doubt that Bamber planned to burn Neville's back. But after knocking him out downstairs, he had to check he was still alive. As he had the rifle in his hand....
As it happened Neville needed several more downstairs shots. And several burns.
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If Sheila was going to burn Neville's back, would she bother pulling up his pyjama top ? She wouldn't care if Neville's top was damaged.
Bamber is more likely to pull Neville's top up. Having burnt hole marks on Neville's pyjama top highlights it was done on the night. By someone calculated and in control enough to check for signs of life - Bamber.
Bamber was hoping the burn marks on Neville's skin would not become an issue. If it was, no one could know what caused them, or when. Although it now seems he is agreeing it was caused on the night, by the rifle head.
Why would Bamber make three burn marks on his fathers neck - why would he be more likely to do it than Sheila?
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Well it was Neville's back. And someone did.
Anyway, my answer is all in the thread post, and other posts.
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Well it was Neville's back.
Anyway, my answer is all in the thread post, and other posts.
its your opinion - nothing else . don't you think he would be rushing home to wash his clothes? rather than hanging around to burn his fathers back?
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its your opinion - nothing else . don't you think he would be rushing home to wash his clothes? rather than hanging around to burn his fathers back?
Yes, my opinion.
Well he did go back to his cottage, when he was ready. And checked that Neville was dead.
Bamber's checks would have likely been after the 6th, 7th and 8th shots. As Neville had three burn marks.
Or Bamber may have shot him eight times and then burned him three times to check for signs of life.
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burned him to check for signs of life ? Why did he not go back and burn the other victims then to check them?
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burned him to check for signs of life ? Why did he not go back and burn the other victims then to check them?
Well Neville had got downstairs and put up a massive fight for life. After receiving four upstairs shots. So it was sensible to check on him.
Sheila couldn't be checked as was the one who was supposed to have killed everyone.
Bamber must have been satisfied that June and the twins were dead. After his 15 shots into them.
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So he went over and heated up a poker or the end of the gun just to check if he was still alive ?Interesting theory Adam . Interesting.
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How do think the burn marks got onto Neville's back ?
The Official Site says it was from the rifle without the silencer attached.
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There may still be mileage in the red-hot casing theory, because not all burns result in a long rectangular shape. Pity there aren't more google images other than these few of rounder ones...
http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn1.jpg.html (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn1.jpg.html)
http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn2.jpg.html (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn2.jpg.html)
http://s874.photobucket.com/user/dbarrym/media/Misc%20for%20forums/IMG_3238sm.jpg.html (http://s874.photobucket.com/user/dbarrym/media/Misc%20for%20forums/IMG_3238sm.jpg.html)
It need not have landed under the pyjama top directly either, but more likely could have rebounded off the red-painted AGA surround, or wall. Furthermore, the longer it remained trapped between pyjama and skin, which would be fitting with Nevill's beaten unresisting condition, the more prolonged and severe the burn(s).
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There may still be mileage in the red-hot casing theory, because not all burns result in a long rectangular shape. Pity there aren't more google images other than these few of rounder ones...
http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn1.jpg.html (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn1.jpg.html)
http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn2.jpg.html (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn2.jpg.html)
http://s874.photobucket.com/user/dbarrym/media/Misc%20for%20forums/IMG_3238sm.jpg.html (http://s874.photobucket.com/user/dbarrym/media/Misc%20for%20forums/IMG_3238sm.jpg.html)
It need not have landed under the pyjama top directly either, but more likely could have rebounded off the red-painted AGA surround, or wall. Furthermore, the longer it remained trapped between pyjama and skin, which would be fitting with Nevill's beaten unresisting condition, the more prolonged and severe the burn(s).
The round burns are usually caused when a rounded portion touches but most of the time it hits a side of the case. I doubt that 3 of 4 would get under his pajamas especially since 2 shots were fired at a different angle than the other 2.
It really doesn't matter what caused them though the burns are not of any use to the case.
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There may still be mileage in the red-hot casing theory, because not all burns result in a long rectangular shape. Pity there aren't more google images other than these few of rounder ones...
http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn1.jpg.html (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn1.jpg.html)
http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn2.jpg.html (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mugenef8/media/FIREARMS/Shooting/burn2.jpg.html)
http://s874.photobucket.com/user/dbarrym/media/Misc%20for%20forums/IMG_3238sm.jpg.html (http://s874.photobucket.com/user/dbarrym/media/Misc%20for%20forums/IMG_3238sm.jpg.html)
It need not have landed under the pyjama top directly either, but more likely could have rebounded off the red-painted AGA surround, or wall. Furthermore, the longer it remained trapped between pyjama and skin, which would be fitting with Nevill's beaten unresisting condition, the more prolonged and severe the burn(s).
When CAL interviewed Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis they were unable to agree on the burns and neither of them mentioned/dismissed hot casings.
P193:
"Don't forget that we're seeing those marks after death, which dries the skin and makes it darker".
Still think hot casings are the most plausible explanation. Where did you get the idea from Myster?
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When I was checking out hot casings I stumbled across this?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080602103331.htm
Do the casings still exist? I think David said fingerprints on the bullets/casings were undetectable due to their small size. Maybe more prints could be exposed on the rifle and magazine too using this method?
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When CAL interviewed Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis they were unable to agree on the burns and neither of them mentioned/dismissed hot casings.
P193:
"Don't forget that we're seeing those marks after death, which dries the skin and makes it darker".
Still think hot casings are the most plausible explanation. Where did you get the idea from Myster?
From seeing red-hot casings ejected in that YouTube video and wondering about their effect if they landed on someone standing close by. Then I saw a photo of Reeva Steenkamp's back which showed two similar marks, although I believe these were caused by hot bullet rather than a casing, which rebounded off a back wall but didn't penetrate her body. Didn't realise burns were so common until you linked to examples in an earlier thread.
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The 3 burn marks are so very different in size and shape, it beggars belief that they could all come from the end of the same round object... maybe the largest, yes... but for the other two, mmmm? &%+((£
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From seeing red-hot casings ejected in that YouTube video and wondering about their effect if they landed on someone standing close by. Then I saw a photo of Reeva Steenkamp's back which showed two similar marks, although I believe these were caused by hot bullet rather than a casing, which rebounded off a back wall but didn't penetrate her body. Didn't realise burns were so common until you linked to examples in an earlier thread.
I have seen the burns close up the best description is a tattoo.
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The 3 burn marks are so very different in size and shape, it beggars belief that they could all come from the end of the same round object... maybe the largest, yes... but for the other two, mmmm? &%+((£
I guess the only way to determine for sure would be to put it to specialists in burns/pathology/ballistics.
I bear in mind Dr V's comments re the marks appearing darker [accentuated] due to the surrounding pathology eg deceased, or nearly, when inflicted and photos taken at PM.
It makes no sense to me for JB or SC to have inflicted them deliberately. Any reason one could think of could easily apply to the other victims so why single out NB?
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I guess the only way to determine for sure would be to put it to specialists in burns/pathology/ballistics.
I bear in mind Dr V's comments re the marks appearing darker [accentuated] due to the surrounding pathology eg deceased, or nearly, when inflicted and photos taken at PM.
It makes no sense to me for JB or SC to have inflicted them deliberately. Any reason one could think of could easily apply to the other victims so why single out NB?
Maybe he wanted them to think she tortured him. For all we know he set up the cushions and burned him to make it appear that she was sitting next to his body doing it.
It is hard to get inside the head of someone who is setting a frame. They are setting the frame from their perspective of how they think things will be viewed. How they think things will be viewed is not necessarily how they will be viewed though. Some things are obvious like placing the gun on top of Sheila we know why he did that. Other things are far less clear.
If Jeremy admitted to Sheila he killed the personally and told her all the details we would not have so many questions. But he didn't and he isn't likely to ever admit what he did and go over the details so we are never going to know. It is far better to admit we will never know and just accept it than agonize. Either way you end up in the same place but less content from the agony.