Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: xtina on January 24, 2016, 03:58:09 PM
Title: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on January 24, 2016, 03:58:09 PM
Introducing the latest film in the Richplanet series about Madeleine McCann ...
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. This clue suggests that Madeleine may have died and her body lain in the apartment for a period of time. Assuming this is correct, what date and time did Madeleine die? The most logical way to address this question is to go back in time to determine what was the last piece of credible evidence, which proves Madeleine was alive. This film attempts to do this by forensically examining witness statements, photographs, physical evidence, police reports and media reports. In doing so the film exposes the agenda of the mainstream media which has, on the whole, helped to cover up the truth about the Madeleine McCann case.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 20, 2016, 11:16:39 AM
It's been uploaded to YouTube in 4 separate parts >>
PART ONE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZV9Ten-HkY
PART TWO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFk1l_8lxq4
PART THREE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
PART FOUR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 20, 2016, 12:37:59 PM
Introducing the latest film in the Richplanet series about Madeleine McCann ...
WHEN MADELEINE DIED?
The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs.
Snipped.
Oh dear - talk about falling at the first fence. It is not true that wherever the ''highly trained police sniffer dogs' barked a dead body must have been present at some time. Anyone making that claim is calling Martin Grime a liar and is also perpetuating a myth.
The 'highly trained police sniffer dogs' both barked at a key fob from the car. Forensic examination revealed the blood of Gerry McCann - who - in case Mr Hall hasn't noticed - is not a human corpse. The End.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 20, 2016, 12:39:38 PM
Oh dear - talk about falling at the first fence. It is not true that wherever the ''highly trained police sniffer dogs' barked a dead body must have been present at some time. Anyone making that claim is calling Martin Grime a liar and is also perpetuating a myth.
The 'highly trained police sniffer dogs' both barked at a key fob from the car. Forensic examination revealed the blood of Gerry McCann - who - in case Mr Hall hasn't noticed - is not a human corpse. The End.
Watch them all first then give an analysis.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 20, 2016, 12:45:01 PM
Introducing the latest film in the Richplanet series about Madeleine McCann ...
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. This clue suggests that Madeleine may have died and her body lain in the apartment for a period of time. Assuming this is correct, what date and time did Madeleine die? The most logical way to address this question is to go back in time to determine what was the last piece of credible evidence, which proves Madeleine was alive. This film attempts to do this by forensically examining witness statements, photographs, physical evidence, police reports and media reports. In doing so the film exposes the agenda of the mainstream media which has, on the whole, helped to cover up the truth about the Madeleine McCann case.
Quote
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.
(Mark Harrison)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 20, 2016, 12:46:46 PM
I watched the last lot. All of them. But I don't think I can face it again. And anyway, I learned nothing the last time.
So could some kind soul with more stamina than I have give me some idea.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 20, 2016, 12:46:54 PM
and before you ask, I will do so, when I have the time and inclination to do so.
I've read the files ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 12:55:58 PM
Just having a look at what else he is promoting:
9/11: Finding out who did 9/11 is NOT the secret they are trying to protect. The secret is so big that they would rather us believe it was done by a faction inside our government or even another government. Keeping us fighting over WHO did it and not looking at what was ACTUALLY done is the goal. Start knowing the TRUTH for yourself. Watch this in full and then GET THE BOOK! Dr. Judy Wood could not be better qualified to forensically and scientifically examine the evidence of the 9/11 attacks. The towers were turned to dust in mid air and were not destroyed using kinetic objects or weapons such as planes, bombs or nukes. The towers were processed with the weapon and turned to dust from within for a period before they collapsed. Watch steel turn to dust before your eyes.
---
7/7:
We have been covering the false flag attack on London known as 7/7 for a few years now. During that period more and more information has come to light, all of which points to and re-enforces the argument that the bombings were carried out by the authorities, not by Islamic terrorists. A catalogue of "smoking guns" is enough to persuade even the most closed minded person of this fact. The police investigation should have started (and should still start) with the arrest and questioning of "crisis management specialist" Peter Power. Yep - he certainly "managed" this "crisis", so he did. Most MPs are not informed about the facts of 7/7 and it is breathtaking to read some of their responses from the current Richplanet 7/7 campaign. Some are exhibiting pathological denial, including Nick Clegg.
---
The London bombings which took place on 7th July 2005 killing 56 people were not carried out by young Muslims as stated in mainstream media. There is not a shred of evidence that would convict the four blamed for the attacks which is why under British law they are totally innocent. Once you look in detail at the facts of seven/seven it becomes abundantly clear that we have totally worthless news media reporting in the UK. The news media organisations are at least in part complicit in the bombings, as they have actively mis-reported the truth and mis-lead the public away from the true perpetrators of these murders.
---
UFOs: The phenomenon of animal mutilation difficult to explain in conventional terms, and has been linked for decades with UFO’s, because strange lights are sometimes witnessed in proximity to sites where animal carcases are found. But have human beings suffered similar attacks? This film attempts to answer this very controversial question. Rumours about human mutilation have circulated the UFO community for years with some people claiming to have had contact with a military group which is used to acquire the corpses of victims of human mutilation. In the film we reveal the testimony of a black ops soldier, who was employed by a secret NATO “find and secure” military team. Their job is to search for and then protect sites where human mutilation has taken place. This programme is PART ONE. Part two follows in the next Richplanet show.
Hmmm.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 20, 2016, 12:59:16 PM
9/11: Finding out who did 9/11 is NOT the secret they are trying to protect. The secret is so big that they would rather us believe it was done by a faction inside our government or even another government. Keeping us fighting over WHO did it and not looking at what was ACTUALLY done is the goal. Start knowing the TRUTH for yourself. Watch this in full and then GET THE BOOK! Dr. Judy Wood could not be better qualified to forensically and scientifically examine the evidence of the 9/11 attacks. The towers were turned to dust in mid air and were not destroyed using kinetic objects or weapons such as planes, bombs or nukes. The towers were processed with the weapon and turned to dust from within for a period before they collapsed. Watch steel turn to dust before your eyes.
---
7/7:
We have been covering the false flag attack on London known as 7/7 for a few years now. During that period more and more information has come to light, all of which points to and re-enforces the argument that the bombings were carried out by the authorities, not by Islamic terrorists. A catalogue of "smoking guns" is enough to persuade even the most closed minded person of this fact. The police investigation should have started (and should still start) with the arrest and questioning of "crisis management specialist" Peter Power. Yep - he certainly "managed" this "crisis", so he did. Most MPs are not informed about the facts of 7/7 and it is breathtaking to read some of their responses from the current Richplanet 7/7 campaign. Some are exhibiting pathological denial, including Nick Clegg.
---
The London bombings which took place on 7th July 2005 killing 56 people were not carried out by young Muslims as stated in mainstream media. There is not a shred of evidence that would convict the four blamed for the attacks which is why under British law they are totally innocent. Once you look in detail at the facts of seven/seven it becomes abundantly clear that we have totally worthless news media reporting in the UK. The news media organisations are at least in part complicit in the bombings, as they have actively mis-reported the truth and mis-lead the public away from the true perpetrators of these murders.
---
UFOs: The phenomenon of animal mutilation difficult to explain in conventional terms, and has been linked for decades with UFO’s, because strange lights are sometimes witnessed in proximity to sites where animal carcases are found. But have human beings suffered similar attacks? This film attempts to answer this very controversial question. Rumours about human mutilation have circulated the UFO community for years with some people claiming to have had contact with a military group which is used to acquire the corpses of victims of human mutilation. In the film we reveal the testimony of a black ops soldier, who was employed by a secret NATO “find and secure” military team. Their job is to search for and then protect sites where human mutilation has taken place. This programme is PART ONE. Part two follows in the next Richplanet show.
Hmmm.
Classic genetic fallacy.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 01:03:48 PM
Anyone who takes hall seriously needs their head examined ........ simple
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on February 20, 2016, 01:07:33 PM
The first 35 minutes of the first.....everyone is a liar......the Tapas group, the nannies, the waiter, the cook......... and his voice still sends me to sleep.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 01:15:30 PM
For those who have failed to notice the introduction to his video starts...
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs.
anyone with any intelligence would realise this is untrue....and therefore realise his whole reasoning is based on a lie. Can any sceptic find fault with that
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 20, 2016, 01:23:00 PM
The first 35 minutes of the first.....everyone is a liar......the Tapas group, the nannies, the waiter, the cook......... and his voice still sends me to sleep.
The only one telling the truth is Richard Hall.
Strange, that ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 01:25:58 PM
Is it still £20...so the deluded have to pay to be deluded
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 20, 2016, 01:29:50 PM
For those who have failed to notice the introduction to his video starts...
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs.
anyone with any intelligence would realise this is untrue....and therefore realise his whole reasoning is based on a lie. Can any sceptic find fault with that
Intelligent sceptics won't - if there are any (intelligent!) sceptics left.
They used to exist.
Not so sure any more ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 20, 2016, 01:46:57 PM
It seems some haven't seen the link to the videos and you don't have to pay 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 20, 2016, 01:50:56 PM
That already posted on this board is enough, and refuted from the files.
Perhaps best to back to squabbling about when they entered or left the apartment, and via which door ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 20, 2016, 01:53:07 PM
Intelligent sceptics won't - if there are any (intelligent!) sceptics left.
They used to exist.
Not so sure any more ...
There are very intelligent sceptics, but you would not either admit that, or be perceptive enough to realize that intelligent people don't believe the mccanns, not because of Amaral, but because they have studied the evidence, including pertinently the inconsistent accounts of key witnesses.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 20, 2016, 01:53:46 PM
It seems some haven't seen the link to the videos and you don't have to pay 8**8:/:
some of us haven't looked seeing as his whole idea is based on a lie...so it seems his idea that people would pay 20 pounds was deluded...like the man himself and those that promote him
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 01:55:54 PM
There are very intelligent sceptics, but you would not either admit that, or be perceptive enough to realize that intelligent people don't believe the mccanns, not because of Amaral, but because they have studied the evidence, including pertinently the inconsistent accounts of key witnesses.
I have seen absolutely non evidence of very intelligent sceptics...could you provide a cite or any support for this statement...once again you post your opinions as fact
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 20, 2016, 02:13:53 PM
April 12th 2014 a poster named buzz posted this to davel on the Duarte Levy thread. There for all to see among others that are equally as funny.
"Never mind I'm sure if you keep arguing about off topic nonsense the post will soon drop a few pages down......that is your usual tactic isn't it"?
The times certainly are not a changin' Mr Dylan.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 20, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Okay, I forced myself to watch the first 35 minutes. And nearly died of boredom. I can't even be bothered to mention the number of times he has twisted quite innocent facts. And if he believes what he has said, then this is rather worrying for his mental health.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 20, 2016, 02:17:02 PM
Comments containing Insults towards other Posters will be deleted.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 02:25:49 PM
Possibly, However, before taking anyone seriously, I find it a reasonable precaution to at least have an overview of the person's other work to assist in forming an opinion as to how credible the latest magnum opus may be.
Or would you disagree?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 20, 2016, 02:57:12 PM
Okay, I forced myself to watch the first 35 minutes. And nearly died of boredom. I can't even be bothered to mention the number of times he has twisted quite innocent facts. And if he believes what he has said, then this is rather worrying for his mental health.
I've listened to the first tape. It's certainly a brilliant cure for insomnia. I genuinely struggled to stay awake.
Basically - imo his theory appears to be that every person who has said anything which doesn't support his own views is lying.
Every newspaper article is completely true. Except those that don't suit him and those are full of lies.
He also seems to think that not only did the McCann's friends cheerfully and immediately - without a second thought - agree to perjure themselves and become accessories to a heinous crime - but people who didn't know them from Adam also happily agreed to do them the same favour.
The fact that they would have to be either simple-minded or insane to agree to such a dangerous course of action - which could result in their ending up in prison themselves with a conviction for perverting the course of justice- appears to have totally escaped him.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 20, 2016, 02:59:38 PM
Possibly, However, before taking anyone seriously, I find it a reasonable precaution to at least have an overview of the person's other work to assist in forming an opinion as to how credible the latest magnum opus may be.
Or would you disagree?
To a certain extent I would agree, but when you use that view to encourage others to ignore the message completely it does become textbook.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 20, 2016, 03:12:20 PM
Possibly, However, before taking anyone seriously, I find it a reasonable precaution to at least have an overview of the person's other work to assist in forming an opinion as to how credible the latest magnum opus may be.
Or would you disagree?
Try checking out Vincent Bugliosi, Joaquim Joesten and Summers and Swann on that basis. If you have nothing better to do for a couple of weeks ?{)(**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lch0o4wwGyw
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 20, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
I've listened to the first tape. It's certainly a brilliant cure for insomnia. I genuinely struggled to stay awake.
Basically - imo his theory appears to be that every person who has said anything which doesn't support his own views is lying.
Every newspaper article is completely true. Except those that don't suit him and those are full of lies.
He also seems to think that not only did the McCann's friends cheerfully and immediately - without a second thought - agree to perjure themselves and become accessories to a heinous crime - but people who didn't know them from Adam also happily agreed to do them the same favour.
The fact that they would have to be either simple-minded or insane to agree to such a dangerous course of action - which could result in their ending up in prison themselves with a conviction for perverting the course of justice- appears to have totally escaped him.
AIMHO
He's not the only one who thinks they were all lying, Benice.
Does he mention when they all got together to organise this, or why they should do it? More than half of them complete strangers.
Why is he doing this? It might be free now, but it's looking like the latest, "Let's all Donate Scheme" to get The McCanns.
It wouldn't stand a hope in hell's chance in Court, of course. Even I could tear him to shreds.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 20, 2016, 03:30:57 PM
To a certain extent I would agree, but when you use that view to encourage others to ignore the message completely it does become textbook.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to ignore it. Everyone watch it, please do. Some of us even manage a laugh at any Conspiracy Theory. You know, just how barking are these people? Woof.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 20, 2016, 03:35:36 PM
So the point isn't whether or not Richard Hall and his video is credible, the point is...what exactly?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 20, 2016, 03:36:58 PM
Gerry didn't go in every room of the apartment. He wasn't on the toilet a long time. Matt didn't say a window was open or shutters raised. Light was getting in from open slats as said in Gerry's statement.
"The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open."
"He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door."
Gerry didn't go in every room of the apartment. He wasn't on the toilet a long time. Matt didn't say a window was open or shutters raised. Light was getting in from open slats as said in Gerry's statement.
"The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open."
"He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door."
So the point isn't whether or not Richard Hall and his video is credible, the point is...what exactly?
The point is letting everyone make their own mind up. If off the wall theories are given bandwidth their validity can quickly be checked and accepted or discounted as appropriate
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 03:46:27 PM
To a certain extent I would agree, but when you use that view to encourage others to ignore the message completely it does become textbook.
I'm not entirely sure how to take your accusation that Carana is "encouraging others to ignore the message completely". Interesting phraseology.
For one, I found it impossible to view the rubbish his last oeuvre consisted of ... despite a valiant attempt to do so. I may get round to subjecting myself to having a look at this one or I may not.
But be assured no-one will encourage or influence me to ignore anything ... I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself ... as is everyone else posting here.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 03:59:48 PM
The point is letting everyone make their own mind up. If off the wall theories are given bandwidth their validity can quickly be checked and accepted or discounted as appropriate
And how does considering Hall's oeuvre as a whole prevent people making their own mind up?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 04:04:21 PM
The point is letting everyone make their own mind up. If off the wall theories are given bandwidth their validity can quickly be checked and accepted or discounted as appropriate
everyone can make their own mind up...you seem to have a problem with posters pointing out that his premise is based on a lie...that is a fact
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 20, 2016, 04:11:13 PM
I guess this thread means we can bring any old cockamamie youtube video here for others to make their minds up over, no matter how obviously bonkers or rubbish.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 04:14:03 PM
Seriously?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 04:34:25 PM
Blonk posted links to the videos 5 hours ago. The playing time is 4 hours ............... &%+((£
I didn't have to read[watch] it to know it was rubbish...................now who said that to a judge about a certain book?
Which book were you thinking of? What was the title?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 20, 2016, 05:43:53 PM
Have now watched three quarters of tape 2. I really couldn't take any more.
Basically, Amy Tierney is a deceitful liar according to Hall, although he doesn't seem to have been able to come up with a reason why this lady would lie through her teeth - so extensively - for a couple she didn't know. Surely discovering the reason for such duplicitous behaviour by Amy Tierney would be a priority - as without a reason for it - it makes no sense.
He also can't understand why as a mere nanny she was at Reception on 3rd May. She was in fact Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club and was on duty. She was also involved in the Missing Child procedure AFAIK.
The usual nonsense about photos is covered - ad nauseum. Mr Hall thinks the proof that the' last photo' was not taken on 3rd May is because Gerry is pale on that piccie, but tanned in the piccie on the following night when he and Kate spoke to the press. He seems not to have noticed that in subsequent photos (like the one with the other man holding a bag of shopping) taken on the 5th May - Gerry is the same colour as he was in the last photo taken by the pool.
It seems to me (so far) that Mr Hall has not read too many of the files himself but has relied on information from sceptics such as Pat Brown, video maker Heidi ho, Tony Bennet and others. That says it all really IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 05:54:16 PM
Have now watched three quarters of tape 2. I really couldn't take any more.
Basically, Amy Tierney is a deceitful liar according to Hall, although he doesn't seem to have been able to come up with a reason why this lady would lie through her teeth - so extensively - for a couple she didn't know. Surely discovering the reason for such duplicitous behaviour by Amy Tierney would be a priority - as without a reason for it - it makes no sense.
He also can't understand why as a mere nanny she was at Reception on 3rd May. She was in fact Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club and was on duty. She was also involved in the Missing Child procedure AFAIK.
The usual nonsense about photos is covered - ad nauseum. Mr Hall thinks the proof that the' last photo' was not taken on 3rd May is because Gerry is pale on that piccie, but tanned in the piccie on the following night when he and Kate spoke to the press. He seems not to have noticed that in subsequent photos (like the one with the other man holding a bag of shopping) taken on the 5th May - Gerry is the same colour as he was in the last photo taken by the pool.
It seems to me (so far) that Mr Hall has not read too many of the files himself but has relied on information from sceptics such as Pat Brown, video maker Heidi ho, Tony Bennet and others. That says it all really IMO.
Basically hall has jumped on the money making conspiracy bandwagon and there are people gullible enough to believe him
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 20, 2016, 05:56:43 PM
I fully expect Slartibartifast to step in here and reprimand you for pre-judging the videos and not allowing others to make up their own minds - not.
You seem to be getting very upset about this, I merely pointed out that Carana stated a logical fallacy in dismissing an argument based on who was proposing it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 20, 2016, 06:50:48 PM
Just glimpsed a tad of number 4, where he accuses Mrs. Fenn of colluding with the mccanns.
Have a look at the end of video 4 when he summaries.
I am surprised Sadie is not a fan of him.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2016, 06:54:46 PM
You seem to be getting very upset about this, I merely pointed out that Carana stated a logical fallacy in dismissing an argument based on who was proposing it.
Very upset?! Don't be daft (oops, ad hominem, self-reported, prolly worth about 10 points ;-) )
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 20, 2016, 07:32:33 PM
You seem to be getting very upset about this, I merely pointed out that Carana stated a logical fallacy in dismissing an argument based on who was proposing it.
Quite erroneously, on his part, in my case as I have made no comment on the videos except for the 4 hour running time.......................I fell asleep in JFK which was marginally shorter as I recall.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 07:36:33 PM
You seem to be getting very upset about this, I merely pointed out that Carana stated a logical fallacy in dismissing an argument based on who was proposing it.
One person's genetic fallacy is another's back-check as to overall credibility. ;)
If this had been a programme produced by Panorama or similar, it would have had more a priori credibility than one produced by a well-known conspiracy theorist, IMO.
Not that one is necessarily totally accurate nor the other one total rubbish.
I'm happy to wade through a few more minutes of it...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 20, 2016, 07:37:02 PM
Quite erroneously, on his part, in my case as I have made no comment on the videos except for the 4 hour running time.......................I fell asleep in JFK which was marginally shorter as I recall.
So you didn't say that you didn't need to watch the video to know it was rubbish? I must have hallucinated that bit then!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 20, 2016, 07:46:43 PM
So you didn't say that you didn't need to watch the video to know it was rubbish? I must have hallucinated that bit then!
I was parrot phrasing one of the witnesses at the libel trial and taking the p**s as is my wont. Now it Saturday. Time for us upper class to join the lower and go out and get spiffled and chase the crumpet while the middle class intelligentsia look on in disapproval and jealousy. Catch you raters
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2016, 08:04:35 PM
Right.
So...
"The True Story of Madeleine McCann - When Madeleine Died?
it doesn't actually start until nearly 2 mins in.
Someone I presume to be Richard Hall is standing in front of a monument to St Gonçalo de Lagos, with fish decorating the top part of it.
Ok.
Then he gets on to the media as "information prostitutes". For some reason, he doesn't mention the PT tabloids.
OK.
Then he moves on the Polish guy 'holidaying in PdL'.
No he wasn't.
I'm up to 5 mins so far.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 20, 2016, 08:10:06 PM
Interesting. So you believe the McCanns acted completely alone in the cover up of their child's death and received no help from anyone in perpetuating the cover up and "fraudulent" fund? Would love to see someone put together a theory of parental involvement without calling on some element of conspiracy somewhere down the line! I'd say it was impossible, but why not have a go?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 20, 2016, 10:50:40 PM
I was parrot phrasing one of the witnesses at the libel trial and taking the p**s as is my wont. Now it Saturday. Time for us upper class to join the lower and go out and get spiffled and chase the crumpet while the middle class intelligentsia look on in disapproval and jealousy. Catch you raters
Lock up your grandmas, the oldest swinger in town is on the pull... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 20, 2016, 10:51:38 PM
Interesting. So you believe the McCanns acted completely alone in the cover up of their child's death and received no help from anyone in perpetuating the cover up and "fraudulent" fund? Would love to see someone put together a theory of parental involvement without calling on some element of conspiracy somewhere down the line! I'd say it was impossible, but why not have a go?
I bet you would be really happy if I told you what you believe. I would suggest you start thinking a little more and stop trying to put every viewpoint into one or two predefined boxes.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: puglove on February 20, 2016, 10:59:15 PM
Is Hall's theory really any crazier than Sadie's ? Yet not a squeak from the supporters about that.
Are you serious? There's a whole thread on it somewhere!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 20, 2016, 11:22:25 PM
@the rest of the forum - kindly note the textbook example of deflection employed by Faithlilly above. Let's not discuss the topic at hand (Richard Halls film), let's instead turn the topic into a critique of Sadie's theory (for which there is already a perfectly serviceable thread). Now, I wonder why the need to deflect so? Slartibartifast, any ideas?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: faithlilly on February 20, 2016, 11:43:16 PM
@the rest of the forum - kindly note the textbook example of deflection employed by Faithlilly above. Let's not discuss the topic at hand (Richard Halls film), let's instead turn the topic into a critique of Sadie's theory (for which there is already a perfectly serviceable thread). Now, I wonder why the need to deflect so? Slartibartifast, any ideas?
No need for deflection. Hall's theory is crazy. Sadie's theory is also crazy. Hall's theory is, rightfully, being slated. Just pointed that it would be refreshing for supporters to so honest about Sadie's too.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 20, 2016, 11:46:54 PM
@the rest of the forum - kindly note the textbook example of deflection employed by Faithlilly above. Let's not discuss the topic at hand (Richard Halls film), let's instead turn the topic into a critique of Sadie's theory (for which there is already a perfectly serviceable thread). Now, I wonder why the need to deflect so? Slartibartifast, any ideas?
I think he aimed it at entirely the wrong target audience. I think it would be worth its weight in gold for insomniacs. That monotone voice!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2016, 07:33:19 AM
I bet you would be really happy if I told you what you believe. I would suggest you start thinking a little more and stop trying to put every viewpoint into one or two predefined boxes.
would suggest you stop trying to boss me about and actually address the question, rather than attack me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 21, 2016, 10:16:20 AM
No need for deflection. Hall's theory is crazy. Sadie's theory is also crazy. Hall's theory is, rightfully, being slated. Just pointed that it would be refreshing for supporters to so honest about Sadie's too.
which part of Hall's theory is crazy? It would be interesting to know which bits you believe fall into the "crazy" category, and it would be on topic too - very novel!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: faithlilly on February 21, 2016, 11:20:44 AM
which part of Hall's theory is crazy? It would be interesting to know which bits you believe fall into the "crazy" category, and it would be on topic too - very novel!
TBH I haven't watched the new video as if the quality of Hall's 'investigative skills' are responsible for 'Sagres Man' from video 2 then I really don't see the point. Of course being a sensible sort you must also know that Sadie's theory is nonsense even though you are too much of a gentleman to say so.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 21, 2016, 11:46:08 AM
TBH I haven't watched the new video as if the quality of Hall's 'investigative skills' are responsible for 'Sagres Man' from video 2 then I really don't see the point. Of course being a sensible sort you must also know that Sadie's theory is nonsense even though you are too much of a gentleman to say so.
If you want to discuss how nonsensical Sadie's theory is, I suggest you do so on the appropriate thread. In the meantime, rather disappointed that you don't want to discuss the specific craziness inherent in Richard Hall's latest vid. Oh well, I'll have to learn to live with the disappointment somehow... 8(8-))
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 21, 2016, 11:58:20 AM
I don't know why he thinks Fenn's burglar was climbing out a 15 foot high window when there's one by the front door with no drop. A burglar would surely try that easy access window not spiderman up the wall into a 15 foot high window. Richard Hall should use some common sense. To believe that everyone can cover up Madeleine not existing for nearly a week is so ridiculous it doesn't require any further comments. There is PE who has a pic of Madeleine in the background taken on the 3 May. I hope the police release it just to shut these people up about nonsense conspiracy theories.
"Therefore, I can confirm that whatever information I had (including some photos of my sons taken on the day Madeleine disappeared, which showed her in the background) was passed both to the police and to the McCanns at the time." (PE)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2016, 12:07:27 PM
If you want to discuss how nonsensical Sadie's theory is, I suggest you do so on the appropriate thread. In the meantime, rather disappointed that you don't want to discuss the specific craziness inherent in Richard Hall's latest vid. Oh well, I'll have to learn to live with the disappointment somehow... 8(8-))
Well he and Sadie seem to have similar beliefs. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: faithlilly on February 21, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
If you want to discuss how nonsensical Sadie's theory is, I suggest you do so on the appropriate thread. In the meantime, rather disappointed that you don't want to discuss the specific craziness inherent in Richard Hall's latest vid. Oh well, I'll have to learn to live with the disappointment somehow... 8(8-))
You will indeed Alfie ☺️
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 21, 2016, 12:45:42 PM
Disappointingly small emoticon there too - what is it supposed to denote?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 21, 2016, 02:44:20 PM
If TB is RH's source for this then he needs to get his facts straight. They left for the tapas area at 4:45 each day for tea until 5:30. They didn't stay at the main reception until that time. Tapas staff saw Madeleine at the tapas area having tea. There is no cover up death all week and Pamela Fenn being involved..... Gerry collected the twins at 4:45. They joined Madeleine who comes with their nannies to the tapas area for tea. Kate was running as seen by others on the beach. She came back at 5:25/30 where she signed the kids out. The creche records are signed out at the tapas eating area not the main reception. This oversight is incredible!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2016, 02:58:24 PM
So...
Zapping past the Polish guy who he states was holidaying in PdL (which he wasn't), he backtracks over the timeline.
- He doesn't believe Matt ever went to check, mainly because he got the colour of the curtains wrong (forgetting that the room would have been dark aside from the small amount of light coming in via the shutter slats and the lamp in the living-room).
- Dave Payne's a close friend, so he doesn't count.
- He trots out the tabloid story of Madeleine and Gerry dancing at Paraiso and describes the owner, Miguel Matias, as a "serial conman and fraudster", forgetting that the rest of the T7 were there, as proven by CCTV, just not the McCanns. I've no idea where he got that allegation about the Paraiso owner from, but it's a serious accusation if not true.
- A blurb about the senior investigator who coordinated the original investigation (he forget that he only did so for 5 months), Dr "Gonchalo" Amaral, and his assertion that she died on the night of 3 May, etc.
- He then cites TdeA's interim report that the last time anyone outside of the group who could prove they'd seen her was at about 5:35 when her parents went to pick her up at the crèche. (The same report that wrongly states that Gerry is a cardiovascual surgeon and that Eddie alerted to the boot.)
The cite on the video is in quotation marks, but it does not correspond to what TdeA wrote, which was: "After getting the children from the Children's centres and the creche they went to the apartment, little after 17:35h.
But' Kate went running for half an hour at the beach and then went to the apartment and' Gerald went to play tennis."
I can't find any reference in TdeA's report about nannies seeing her at that time.
Oh... and by the way, I have no idea who the person in the photo is on Havern's that he used, but it looks nothing like TdeA.
- He then examines the testimony of the "two crèche nannies", Charlotte & Cat, (he'd only mentioned one earlier). (I have no idea why he mention Charlotte... but anyway.)
Cat does indeed state: "When asked, the informant responds that it was always the parents who brought Madeleine and fetched her from the "Mini Club."
But she also stated (concerning the general arrangements): The child is delivered in the morning by one of the parents who also picks him or her up at lunch time. Some of the children return for the afternoon session which includes accompanying them to "high tea" at around 5H in the afternoon.
Further on:
(...) Either Kate or Gerry would accompany Madeleine every day in the morning and would return at lunch hour to take her back. I met Gerry more often as he would drop Madeleine off with greater frequency than Kate. I also remember that Kate was present for High Tea accompanied by the twins between 5H and 5H30 in the afternoon.
Most of the time in which I saw the family together, the children would be eating.
(...)
On Thursday the 3rd of May 2007, I remember Gerry having accompanied Madeleine to the club between 9h15 and 9h20 in the morning. I do not remember who came to pick her up for lunch but after she returned in the afternoon for a dive/swim. These activities were realized with the other children. On this day I remember that we sailed and I saw friends of the McCanns on the beach, David and Jane. Around 14h45 Madeleine returned to the Minis Club on top of the reception but I do not remember who accompanied her. This afternoon we went swimming. Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar area and according to what I remember she was wearing sporting clothes and I assumed that she was practicing some form of athletics. It was around 15h25/18h00. I think that Gerry was playing tennis.
Rog
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
For some reason he doesn't appear aware of the fact, although it is mentioned in several statements, that children who attend the afternoon activities are taken by the nannies to the Tapas restaurant area for 5 pm where they have high tea, and that the parents sign them out when they've finished their meal.
[A different nanny]She says that in spite the fact that both of the toddlers groups were in the same building and that both the twins were in Toddlers 2, she only had contact with Madeleine's parents twice when they came collect the twins after their meal, which happened every day at about 17.30, this contact also being brief and formal "just saying good afternoon". http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
Maria Manuela Antonia Jose (Tapas Restaurant cook) Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
We took Evie back up because if they stay in the kids club the nannies bring them for tea and then you can pick them up from tea http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
There is then a spiel that he finds it suspicious that Kate had prearranged for Gerry to collect M from the Lobster crèche... The afternoon crèche records show a five-minute difference in the signing out by Kate, but he finds it suspicious that Kate didn't mention in her book about arranging for Gerry to first collect the twins.
Erm... That's because the NANNIES took the children to the Tapas restaurant for tea and they get signed out from there after their high tea.
The weekly activity sheet shows that activities at the actual crèche HQ end at @5pm, whereupon the kids are taken to tea and the parents join them there and sign them out from there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_873.jpg
Not sure I can cope with much more of this for the moment. I've got up to 34:00 so far.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2016, 03:00:06 PM
If TB is RH's source for this then he needs to get his facts straight. They left for the tapas area at 4:45 each day for tea until 5:30. They didn't stay at the main reception until that time. Tapas staff saw Madeleine at the tapas area having tea. There is no cover up death all week and Pamela Fenn being involved..... Gerry collected the twins at 4:45. They joined Madeleine who comes with their nannies to the tapas area for tea. Kate was running as seen by others on the beach. She came back at 5:25/30 where she signed the kids out. The creche records are signed out at the tapas eating area not the main reception. This oversight is incredible!
LOL It's not often we agree.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 21, 2016, 03:07:25 PM
If TB is RH's source for this then he needs to get his facts straight. They left for the tapas area at 4:45 each day for tea until 5:30. They didn't stay at the main reception until that time. Tapas staff saw Madeleine at the tapas area having tea. There is no cover up death all week and Pamela Fenn being involved..... Gerry collected the twins at 4:45. They joined Madeleine who comes with their nannies to the tapas area for tea. Kate was running as seen by others on the beach. She came back at 5:25/30 where she signed the kids out. The creche records are signed out at the tapas eating area not the main reception. This oversight is incredible!
Exactly. Thank you for saying that better than I could.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2016, 03:11:50 PM
- For some reason he finds it highly likely that M disappeared prior to the end of tea because Kate stated that she carried M home, when - according to him - it should have been Gerry carrying her, ergo they only went home with the twins. &%+((£
it also goes on to cite newspaper articles, with descriptions or reported cites from generally unidentified sources.
And this is supposed to be a "forensic" analysis?.... Hmmm. &%+((£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on February 21, 2016, 03:18:50 PM
I think 'forensic analysis' is probably a front-runner for this year's Bullshit awards.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2016, 03:40:34 PM
I think 'forensic analysis' is probably a front-runner for this year's Bullshit awards.
it's fairly obvious who the contributing "researchers" were.
I suspect that anyone who disagrees that it's the most powerful documentary since the X files or The Twilight Zone might end up getting banned from said "research" forum.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 21, 2016, 03:46:55 PM
it's fairly obvious who the contributing "researchers" were.
I suspect that anyone who disagrees that it's the most powerful documentary since the X files or The Twilight Zone might end up getting banned from said "research" forum.
Some of us already have been. You don't get to disagree, unlike on this Forum
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: faithlilly on February 21, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
However, they have a script to follow, and can't deal with it, when 'sceptics' say the Hall's latest is a load of tosh reminiscent of Sadie's.
Sadie's theory isn't being fed to a worldwide audience. Even those who are sure itwastheparentswotdunit must now be questioning the very foundations of their beliefs, given the number of times GA's picture is shown during the videos.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2016, 07:44:12 PM
Sadie's theory isn't being fed to a worldwide audience. Even those who are sure itwastheparentswotdunit must now be questioning the very foundations of their beliefs, given the number of times GA's picture is shown during the videos.
NOPE.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 21, 2016, 07:50:27 PM
Sadie's theory isn't being fed to a worldwide audience. Even those who are sure itwastheparentswotdunit must now be questioning the very foundations of their beliefs, given the number of times GA's picture is shown during the videos.
Do you have any idea of the garbage that is posted on YouTube? If you think it has any impact on the real world... &%+((£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on February 21, 2016, 08:00:56 PM
Sadie's theory isn't being fed to a worldwide audience. Even those who are sure itwastheparentswotdunit must now be questioning the very foundations of their beliefs, given the number of times GA's picture is shown during the videos.
Just as well. I don't think the world is ready for that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on February 21, 2016, 08:51:30 PM
Do you have any idea of the garbage that is posted on YouTube? If you think it has any impact on the real world... &%+((£
The material seems to be particularly effective at influencing those who belong to the prolific sceptic groups.....perhaps there are many thousands who don't live in the real world.....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2016, 08:52:48 PM
The material seems to be particularly effective at influencing those who belong to the prolific sceptic groups.....perhaps there are many thousands who don't live in the real world.....
Wrong.
Just a few in that 'elite' club. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 08:22:00 AM
It's been uploaded to YouTube in 4 separate parts >>
PART ONE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZV9Ten-HkY
PART TWO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFk1l_8lxq4
PART THREE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
PART FOUR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
thanks blonk......i didn't think this page would be unlocked till today
i see there is already opinions on these Cd's.....seems like some out in force ....
why are they so keen to to put people down who are only trying to get to the truth of what happened to maddie
why if they are so keen ..on the excuse innocent till proved guilty...and so passionate with there compassion for that ....do they try and assassinate ...anyone who does not believe in the abduction...when in fact there is no % evidence that the abduction took place
the mccs will be aware of these Cd's for weeks...even have a copy ...i have had mine since last week and they are called liar's and it shows ..they are .....
strange how they have done ..or not able to do anything about them..[maybe not enough money left in the fund]
it will be interesting to see what the out come will be ...i have always said i wish some one in the media ..would have the guts to report all the inconsistencies [lies] in the mccs version ....R D H ..has
the tide is turning for the mccs....there will be more to come ...and there will be light at the end of the tunnel ...there will be justice ...for the real victim in all this ...maddie ....the truth that so many of us strive for ....who don't believe and never have ...the lies that has been fed to us
well done Richard D Hall..... 8((()*/.... 8@??)(
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 22, 2016, 09:28:14 AM
This appeared on Amazon and has the ring of Blacksmith to it...
Having now had time to listen to most of the spoof documentary "Dicky Hall and the Cobblers of Loon" I can offer the following critique:
It is, without doubt, the most ridiculous, preposterous, hilariously inaccurate waste of bandwidth it has ever been my good fortune to listen to. I started initially keeping a log of each howler, but I soon gave up because I had written down 7 items in the first five minutes, and I had visions of the critique being twice as long as the original.
Every myth you have ever heard, it's in there. It is a shambolic, ludicrous selection of official evidence called into question because some piece in a newspaper contradicted it, newspaper reports taken as gospel, statements completely ignored or dismissed because they don't suit his agenda and some rather hilarious clangers, including a description of what constitutes a ''self-serving statement'' which was so inaccurate that I can only think he obtained his legal definition from the Malodorous Tramp. Who in turn obtained it from a Christmas cracker.
Each theory is Bennett's festering nonsense which he has been hawking around the internet like a man with a basket of short-coded halibut. Honestly, I wish I could explain how bad it is, but I would never get away with that kind of language on here. So I will merely say that it sucks. It really really sucks. It sucks so much it's in danger of turning itself inside out. It's also massively offensive with it's foul accusations and insinuations. Much of the hogwash he comes out with has long since been debunked - like Murat returning at a moment's notice, for example
The last few minutes is a real treat, when he appears to be in the process of suffering a catastrophic brain injury, his voice growing louder and louder as his words make less and less sense.
I expected it to be bad. It is so very much worse.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 10:59:31 AM
This appeared on Amazon and has the ring of Blacksmith to it...
Having now had time to listen to most of the spoof documentary "Dicky Hall and the Cobblers of Loon" I can offer the following critique:
It is, without doubt, the most ridiculous, preposterous, hilariously inaccurate waste of bandwidth it has ever been my good fortune to listen to. I started initially keeping a log of each howler, but I soon gave up because I had written down 7 items in the first five minutes, and I had visions of the critique being twice as long as the original.
Every myth you have ever heard, it's in there. It is a shambolic, ludicrous selection of official evidence called into question because some piece in a newspaper contradicted it, newspaper reports taken as gospel, statements completely ignored or dismissed because they don't suit his agenda and some rather hilarious clangers, including a description of what constitutes a ''self-serving statement'' which was so inaccurate that I can only think he obtained his legal definition from the Malodorous Tramp. Who in turn obtained it from a Christmas cracker.
Each theory is Bennett's festering nonsense which he has been hawking around the internet like a man with a basket of short-coded halibut. Honestly, I wish I could explain how bad it is, but I would never get away with that kind of language on here. So I will merely say that it sucks. It really really sucks. It sucks so much it's in danger of turning itself inside out. It's also massively offensive with it's foul accusations and insinuations. Much of the hogwash he comes out with has long since been debunked - like Murat returning at a moment's notice, for example
The last few minutes is a real treat, when he appears to be in the process of suffering a catastrophic brain injury, his voice growing louder and louder as his words make less and less sense.
I expected it to be bad. It is so very much worse.
his voice growing louder and louder as his words make less and less sense.
Hmmmm.just like the mccs.......except R H ...has nothing to hide
well you would say the above wouldn't you .........its what you do ....you don't question anything that would prove the mccs involved ....the abduction has to be 100% right.....even though there is 0% proof ...
i bet no one could make a ten minute film about abduction ....let alone four hours ...and the rest
what do you think about the so called last photo then ..[to mention just one thing]...the last sunny day was the sunday ...so why did they lie about it being on the last day .....
even kmcc in her book said ...it was cold and she wished she had put a cardigan on maddie on the 3rd ....
look at the last photo ....did maddie need a cardigan fgs
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2016, 11:12:48 AM
@ Xtina
I have no problem at all with people attempting to get to the truth. My problem is that people in some quarters simply aren't.
For some reason, either due to ignorance or for some nefarious reason, certain people manage to "misunderstand" or "miss" the most basic of information. They cherry pick details out of context, rehash long-debunked myths despite being self-proclaimed experts on the files and churn out mangled interpretations. These are invariably intended to make those who rely on these "experts" assume that a) the child is necessarily dead and b) the McCanns are necessarily involved.
Here's a classic example:
57:00 ish "... The second mystery is why, when the police asked for a sample of Madeleine's DNA, the McCanns were unable to produce any. They had nothing, apparently, neither on her clothes, nor her bedclothes, nor pillows, soft toys or things like hairbrush or toothbrush that would yield any of her DNA. That is remarkable and could indicate the McCanns sterilised the clothes and belongings of Madeleine before she was reported missing...."
Sounds damning, eh?
Except that:
- Why would the McCanns have "sterilised" her belongings? To prevent the police from discovering that she was a clone or a substitute?
- What do these "experts" suppose was the purpose of establishing her DNA?
They needed a reference sample against which to compare other DNA profiles in the event of either finding her, what she was wearing, or her DNA in unexplained locations.
Since when would forensics seek a reference sample from a) a crime scene and that was b) likely to be contaminated by other people, including her siblings?
- Which police is he talking about? The Portuguese police didn't ASK for her DNA. The forensic team in 5A were searching for hairs, fingerprints, traces of blood and whatever might have been evidence of a knock-out agent. That was it.
Gerry did hand her pillow to an officer from the UK police when he went on a trip back to Rothley.
- Even the DNA from the pillow was only an assumed reference until a different sample was obtained (presumably her heel-prick test as a new-born).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 22, 2016, 11:27:02 AM
What a disappointment. Even the last half an hour wasn't worth watching.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2016, 11:41:47 AM
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 22, 2016, 11:54:53 AM
Have just watched the last tape. Any sceptic who actually believes that load of conspiratorial clap-trap cannot possibly have read the files. Mrs.Fenn colluded with the McCanns! What?
I almost (but not quite) feel sorry for Mr. Hall.. He seems to live in a world positively overflowing with people in high places who lie to him, try to fool him, con him, and are all plotting against him. Wow - talk about paranoid - I bet he keeps a close eye on his own shadow.
IMO (sadly) he is also easy prey for those who want to perpetuate the lies, myths and disinformation that have abounded for the last 9 years re this case. Who better to 'employ' than someone who apparently already sees major conspiracies around every corner.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 11:55:42 AM
I have no problem at all with people attempting to get to the truth. My problem is that people in some quarters simply aren't.
For some reason, either due to ignorance or for some nefarious reason, certain people manage to "misunderstand" or "miss" the most basic of information. They cherry pick details out of context, rehash long-debunked myths despite being self-proclaimed experts on the files and churn out mangled interpretations. These are invariably intended to make those who rely on these "experts" assume that a) the child is necessarily dead and b) the McCanns are necessarily involved.
Here's a classic example:
57:00 ish "... The second mystery is why, when the police asked for a sample of Madeleine's DNA, the McCanns were unable to produce any. They had nothing, apparently, neither on her clothes, nor her bedclothes, nor pillows, soft toys or things like hairbrush or toothbrush that would yield any of her DNA. That is remarkable and could indicate the McCanns sterilised the clothes and belongings of Madeleine before she was reported missing...."
Sounds damning, eh?
Except that:
- Why would the McCanns have "sterilised" her belongings? To prevent the police from discovering that she was a clone or a substitute?
- What do these "experts" suppose was the purpose of establishing her DNA?
They needed a reference sample against which to compare other DNA profiles in the event of either finding her, what she was wearing, or her DNA in unexplained locations.
Since when would forensics seek a reference sample from a) a crime scene and that was b) likely to be contaminated by other people, including her siblings?
- Which police is he talking about? The Portuguese police didn't ASK for her DNA. The forensic team in 5A were searching for hairs, fingerprints, traces of blood and whatever might have been evidence of a knock-out agent. That was it.
Gerry did hand her pillow to an officer from the UK police when he went on a trip back to Rothley.
- Even the DNA from the pillow was only an assumed reference until a different sample was obtained (presumably her heel-prick test as a new-born).
the above i will politely say if you disagree...ask R D H
I don't care what you think about what you have seen ....you cannot disagree with all the inconsistencies the he has covered...
its gone out world wide ....and as yet the Macs have done nothing about it ....because they probably can't ....
he is showing ...what up to now the media can't....he is calling the abduction a farce ...the mccs have lied
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 12:00:40 PM
Have just watched the last tape. Any sceptic who actually believes that load of conspiratorial clap-trap cannot possibly have read the files. Mrs.Fenn colluded with the McCanns! What?
I almost (but not quite) feel sorry for Mr. Hall.. He seems to live in a world positively overflowing with people in high places who lie to him, try to fool him, con him, and are all plotting against him. Wow - talk about paranoid - I bet he keeps a close eye on his own shadow.
IMO (sadly) he is also easy prey for those who want to perpetuate the lies, myths and disinformation that have abounded for the last 9 years re this case. Who better to 'employ' than someone who apparently already sees major conspiracies around every corner.
AIMHO
well the mccs are so concerned about what harm can be done for the search for maddie .....
lets see what they do about this ......nothing ...because he is right ...the evidence is there...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 22, 2016, 12:06:11 PM
What a disappointment. Even the last half an hour wasn't worth watching.
So as bad as the last doc then? Haha. I will probably torture myself with this one too at some point though not much spare time nowadays. At least if it was a reasonable doc we'd have something to debate!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 22, 2016, 12:11:22 PM
So as bad as the last doc then? Haha. I will probably torture myself with this one too at some point though not much spare time nowadays. At least if it was a reasonable doc we'd have something to debate!
Most of us have tried, LordPookles, but it really is pretty abysmal, by all accounts.
I did watch all of the last one, but I positively refuse to do it again.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 12:35:57 PM
So do you believe Mrs Fenn colluded with the McCanns as claimed by R. Hall?
what do you care what i believe..... the Cd's last for 4 hours ....is that the only thing you can bring up...you don't know they didn't...it could be explained in the follow up to this film
what is your opinion then about the last photo ....it wasn't sunny on the day they claimed it was took ....why did it take three weeks to show that photo ....two days after Philomena[g mcc sister] and her husband turned up who just happens to be a photo expert....if the photo was misrepresented ...that is a criminal offence
why did they only take 4 photo's ...of maddie ..
why did they give a picture ...at least a year old to the police ...
who took the tennis picture ....k mcc had to run back to get her camera....so did maddie wait patiently ..holding the balls for her to return...
why have they lied about the photo.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2016, 12:41:28 PM
what do you care what i believe..... the Cd's last for 4 hours ....is that the only thing you can bring up...you don't know they didn't...it could be explained in the follow up to this film
what is your opinion then about the last photo ....it wasn't sunny on the day they claimed it was took ....why did it take three weeks to show that photo ....two days after Philomena[g mcc sister] and her husband turned up who just happens to be a photo expert....if the photo was misrepresented ...that is a criminal offence
why did they only take 4 photo's ...of maddie ..
why did they give a picture ...at least a year old to the police ...
who took the tennis picture ....k mcc had to run back to get her camera....so did maddie wait patiently ..holding the balls for her to return...
why have they lied about the photo.
But I do care what you believe - so do you think Mrs Fenn colluded with the McCanns as Mr. Hall claims? That's a pretty serious claim to make IMO. He is saying Mrs. Fenn was dishonest.
IMO The iconic picture was chosen because it shows Madeleine full face, and with every facial detail clearly visible, including her eye 'defect' and hair colour and with no shadows to have to contend with.
I have no problems with the last photo - and neither apparently have two police forces. But then I'm not a conspiracy theorist desperately trying to prove that Madeleine died before the 3rd May.
AFAIK we haven't been told how many photos were taken during the holiday. You are assuming that only the ones we have seen were taken. But so what if they only took 4? Not everyone is camera- happy.
It's possible that more than one person took photos of Madeleine at the tennis court. It seems obvious that the one used came from Kate's camera. Why would she say it did - if it didn't? If Kate decided to lie about it - then what part of a cunning plan was that supposed to achieve? I fail to see the 'big deal' here.
Mega nitpicking IMO - which in the absence of any evidence that the McCanns disposed of their child - is what some sceptics have been reduced to and which has now reached a ridiculous level IMO.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 22, 2016, 01:47:42 PM
The only reason for why they are trying to prove that Madeleine died before the 3rd of May is because they know it would have been impossible for The McCanns to cover up anything on the 3rd.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 22, 2016, 02:06:23 PM
his voice growing louder and louder as his words make less and less sense.
Hmmmm.just like the mccs.......except R H ...has nothing to hide
well you would say the above wouldn't you .........its what you do ....you don't question anything that would prove the mccs involved ....the abduction has to be 100% right.....even though there is 0% proof ...
i bet no one could make a ten minute film about abduction ....let alone four hours ...and the rest
what do you think about the so called last photo then ..[to mention just one thing]...the last sunny day was the sunday ...so why did they lie about it being on the last day .....
even kmcc in her book said ...it was cold and she wished she had put a cardigan on maddie on the 3rd ....
look at the last photo ....did maddie need a cardigan fgs
Just to clarify that review wasn't written by me, but by one of the "sceptic" brigade. Obviously one with slightly higher standards than the average h*er.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 03:06:30 PM
But I do care what you believe - so do you think Mrs Fenn colluded with the McCanns as Mr. Hall claims? That's a pretty serious claim to make IMO. He is saying Mrs. Fenn was dishonest.
IMO The iconic picture was chosen because it shows Madeleine full face, and with every facial detail clearly visible, including her eye 'defect' and hair colour and with no shadows to have to contend with.
I have no problems with the last photo - and neither apparently have two police forces. But then I'm not a conspiracy theorist desperately trying to prove that Madeleine died before the 3rd May.
AFAIK we haven't been told how many photos were taken during the holiday. You are assuming that only the ones we have seen were taken. But so what if they only took 4? Not everyone is camera- happy.
It's possible that more than one person took photos of Madeleine at the tennis court. It seems obvious that the one used came from Kate's camera. Why would she say it did - if it didn't? If Kate decided to lie about it - then what part of a cunning plan was that supposed to achieve? I fail to see the 'big deal' here.
Mega nitpicking IMO - which in the absence of any evidence that the McCanns disposed of their child - is what some sceptics have been reduced to and which has now reached a ridiculous level IMO.
AIMHO
oh come onnnn....the only photo that that showed maddie with a full face ....you couldn't even see her eye ....just a her little chubby face with shorter hair ....it didn't even look like maddie as she was then
the reason about the tennis photo ....is Rachel Oldfield said she took it ...so one of them is lying
still didn't mention the last photo though ...did you..when the day it was claimed to have been took was not a sunny day
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 22, 2016, 03:11:46 PM
Good heavens. The McCanns didn't have make a mess of this colossal cover up. No wonder RDH found it all so easy. Expect The McCanns to be arrested at any moment.
Have I got time for a quick Tick Tock?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 03:32:08 PM
Good heavens. The McCanns didn't have make a mess of this colossal cover up. No wonder RDH found it all so easy. Expect The McCanns to be arrested at any moment.
Have I got time for a quick Tick Tock?
another one who has the guts to go against the mccs version ....another one i applaud....
why if you so believe in the mccs ....are you all so intent on rubbishing anything ..or anyone.that shows there is two sides to this story ....and a three year old little girl involved ...maddie.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 22, 2016, 03:40:31 PM
another one who has the guts to go against the mccs version ....another one i applaud....
why if you so believe in the mccs ....are you all so intent on rubbishing anything ..or anyone.that shows there is two sides to this story ....and a three year old little girl involved ...maddie.
There aren't two sides to this story. Ask Scotland Yard and The PJ.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2016, 03:56:01 PM
another one who has the guts to go against the mccs version ....another one i applaud....
why if you so believe in the mccs ....are you all so intent on rubbishing anything ..or anyone.that shows there is two sides to this story ....and a three year old little girl involved ...maddie.
Let's try this once more.
Which inconsistencies in even that first episode have you double-checked and have found to be a red flag of nefarious deeds?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 22, 2016, 04:12:25 PM
another one who has the guts to go against the mccs version ....another one i applaud....
why if you so believe in the mccs ....are you all so intent on rubbishing anything ..or anyone.that shows there is two sides to this story ....and a three year old little girl involved ...maddie.
Hall is a conspiracy theorist - and he seems to be convinced that the whole of the MSM, governments, police and authorites are involved in a gigantic conspiracy to deceive "the public" in virtually every area of life no doubt orchestrated by a shadowy cabal of extremely wealthy and influential people.
And in the case of the McCanns that MI5, Clarence Mitchell, the MSM, SY and the PJ, let alone the Portuguese and UK governments, are conspiring to cover up the "fact" that Madeleine died on the Sunday. That the events of the 3rd were an incredibly complicated deception staged to cover up this fact and that this has carried on for 9 years.
There are two problems with this.
If her disappearance was of sufficient importance to demand a cover up of this magnitude, then "the public" would never have heard about it in the first place.
There is a very simple explanation which does not involve a complex, gigantic conspiracy involving thousands of people for 9 years - that someone walked into the appartment using a spare key and took Madeleine. Thats it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 22, 2016, 06:05:33 PM
Hall is a conspiracy theorist - and he seems to be convinced that the whole of the MSM, governments, police and authorites are involved in a gigantic conspiracy to deceive "the public" in virtually every area of life no doubt orchestrated by a shadowy cabal of extremely wealthy and influential people.
And in the case of the McCanns that MI5, Clarence Mitchell, the MSM, SY and the PJ, let alone the Portuguese and UK governments, are conspiring to cover up the "fact" that Madeleine died on the Sunday. That the events of the 3rd were an incredibly complicated deception staged to cover up this fact and that this has carried on for 9 years.
There are two problems with this.
If her disappearance was of sufficient importance to demand a cover up of this magnitude, then "the public" would never have heard about it in the first place.
There is a very simple explanation which does not involve a complex, gigantic conspiracy involving thousands of people for 9 years - that someone walked into the appartment using a spare key and took Madeleine. Thats it.
Oh lord, that's far too simple an explanation. I'm surprised Stephen hasn't come along to say "NO PROOF OF ABDUCTION" yet. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 22, 2016, 06:07:28 PM
oh come onnnn....the only photo that that showed maddie with a full face ....you couldn't even see her eye ....just a her little chubby face with shorter hair ....it didn't even look like maddie as she was then
the reason about the tennis photo ....is Rachel Oldfield said she took it ...so one of them is lying
still didn't mention the last photo though ...did you..when the day it was claimed to have been took was not a sunny day
Anyone who can't see Madeleine's eye (complete with mark) on that iconic photograph urgently needs to go to Specsavers IMO.
IIRC Rachael Oldfield did not say she took the tennis photo of Madeleine. She thought it was Jane Tanner who she saw taking photos of Ella and Madeleine and so assumed Jane had taken that particular photo.
Quote from Jayne Tanners Rog statement re the weather on Thursday when the last photo was taken:-
Quote Reply “No, not at all, no. As I say, at this stage, this is when everybody was sat down and everybody was saying how well it had all worked. This was the night when we were all saying that, so, no, there was nothing. And we’d had a really, I think in some ways it had been the nicest day because the weather had been nicer, we’d all had the chance, you know, we’d taken the kids to the beach, we were all saying, you know, it was probably, it’s ironic, but it had been the best day of the holiday so far because, you know, we’d been able to do something with the kids and blah blah, so”. End quote
You still haven't said whether you agree with R. Hall that Mrs Fenn colluded with the McCanns and fabricated some of her evidence??
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 22, 2016, 06:29:08 PM
Anyone who can't see Madeleine's eye (complete with mark) on that iconic photograph urgently needs to go to Specsavers IMO.
IIRC Rachael Oldfield did not say she took the tennis photo of Madeleine. She thought it was Jane Tanner who she saw taking photos of Ella and Madeleine and so assumed Jane had taken that particular photo.
Quote from Jayne Tanners Rog statement re the weather on Thursday when the last photo was taken:-
Quote Reply “No, not at all, no. As I say, at this stage, this is when everybody was sat down and everybody was saying how well it had all worked. This was the night when we were all saying that, so, no, there was nothing. And we’d had a really, I think in some ways it had been the nicest day because the weather had been nicer, we’d all had the chance, you know, we’d taken the kids to the beach, we were all saying, you know, it was probably, it’s ironic, but it had been the best day of the holiday so far because, you know, we’d been able to do something with the kids and blah blah, so”. End quote
You still haven't said whether you agree with R. Hall that Mrs Fenn colluded with the McCanns and fabricated some of her evidence??
look at what k mc said in her book
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
6;40 mins into it
what photo are you talkin about.......this is the one i mean......so many they could have used .......and they chose this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFk1l_8lxq4
why give an out of date photo '.......' to use in the 'search'!
THAT........, much 'shorter haired, 'girl' was never in PDL!
So it's no surprise that nobody 'found' THAT 'girl'
nobody was 'looking' for 'the,' much 'longer haired', maddie, by the pool, 'photographed'...allegedly... just hours before her 'disappearance'.
Wow. Oh my. Someone must definitely be lying. It's not as if several people could possibly be taking photos of their kids, is it?
I hope the Met have been duly informed.
Wow. Oh my. Someone must definitely be lying.
exactly 8((()*/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 24, 2016, 12:32:02 PM
Does anyone have more info on where Mr Hall got this Luz weather chart?
The video is rather vague on this. It is attributed to an ex-RAF ex-pat living in Luz who kept a daily diary of the weather.
I have been trying to establish more by checking the usual suspects, so far without success.
Please note, the chart was referenced by Mr Hall wrt 'the Last Photo' and when 'the Last Photo' was taken. That is not my interest, though I have now waded through umpteen 'Last Photo' threads in the hope the weather chart might be in it. The nearest I have got is detailed weather charts for Faro, which I consider to be of limited value re the weather in Luz, given the distance between the two.
I have also waded through threads compiling and comparing statements made about the weather, and again, that is not what I am looking for.
I am looking for further information about this chart, the person behind it, and how the chart was built up. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 25, 2016, 12:34:47 AM
You often post about x y z being honest witnesses, is there any you have come cross that you consider dishonest?
IMO the vast majority of statements are completely honest Mercury, and if there's any that are only almost completely honest just by leaving a few things out it's a very small number.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 25, 2016, 06:03:02 PM
I have added a small amount of information about "The Last Photo" on my blog, following a personal foray to check out some details.
From what I have seen so far, Mr Hall does not argue re the particular point I have covered, albeit I have an hour and a half of his 4 hour marathon to go.
However, this seems the most relevant thread for additional information on "The Last Photo".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 25, 2016, 08:34:52 PM
Does anyone have more info on where Mr Hall got this Luz weather chart?
The video is rather vague on this. It is attributed to an ex-RAF ex-pat living in Luz who kept a daily diary of the weather.
I have been trying to establish more by checking the usual suspects, so far without success.
Please note, the chart was referenced by Mr Hall wrt 'the Last Photo' and when 'the Last Photo' was taken. That is not my interest, though I have now waded through umpteen 'Last Photo' threads in the hope the weather chart might be in it. The nearest I have got is detailed weather charts for Faro, which I consider to be of limited value re the weather in Luz, given the distance between the two.
I have also waded through threads compiling and comparing statements made about the weather, and again, that is not what I am looking for.
I am looking for further information about this chart, the person behind it, and how the chart was built up. Does anyone know?
No idea, SIL.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2016, 08:46:40 PM
anyone know why he intended to sell the video...on preorder for 20p...then decided to give it away....what happened to all those who had paid 20p already
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 25, 2016, 09:06:19 PM
anyone know why he intended to sell the video...on preorder for 20p...then decided to give it away....what happened to all those who had paid 20p already
I gave him 2 bob and told him to keep the change!.
lol He wanted to sell it. I don't think his work is accurate- some of it is interesting and some of it worth discussing, I only watched the first 10 mins... oops sorry.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 25, 2016, 09:09:07 PM
anyone know why he intended to sell the video...on preorder for 20p...then decided to give it away....what happened to all those who had paid 20p already
All this is made plain on his website, and also on the McCann-doubter forums.
People buy his videos to have, to watch again, to share with friends etc. etc. - and many comments add as a further reason for buying the Madeleine films: "So we still have copies in circulation in case the McCanns try to ban them".
Also @ ShiningInLuz Hall publishes responses to his films and offers to correct any proven inaccuracies. He has a contact address on his website. Why not ask him your question about the weather charts direct? - he will probably answer you after his current tour ends. I have looked at available weather reports that week on the Algarve myself - and without question they all show that Saturday and Sunday (28th, 29th April 2007) were very sunny and warm, followed during Monday by a cold front which brought cooler, cloudier, windier weather - and some rain - for the rest of the week
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 25, 2016, 09:12:57 PM
All this is made plain on his website, and also on the McCann-doubter forums.
People buy his videos to have, to watch again, to share with friends etc. etc. - and many comments add as a further reason for buying the Madeleine films: "So we still have copies in circulation in case the McCanns try to ban them".
Also @ ShiningInLuz Hall publishes responses to his films and offers to correct any proven inaccuracies. He has a contact address on his website. Why not ask him your question about the weather charts direct? - he will probably answer you after his current tour ends. I have looked at available weather reports that week on the Algarve myself - and without question they all show that Saturday and Sunday (28th, 29th April 2007) were very sunny and warm, followed during Monday by a cold front which brought cooler, cloudier, windier weather - and some rain - for the rest of the week
The introduction....
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs.
who decided the alert was to the past presence of a human corpse.../that is a lie...perhaps he could correct that
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 25, 2016, 09:13:06 PM
I gave him 2 bob and told him to keep the change!.
lol He wanted to sell it. I don't think his work is accurate- some of it is interesting and some of it worth discussing, I only watched the first 10 mins... oops sorry.
Well, you managed 5 minutes more than me. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 25, 2016, 09:14:02 PM
All this is made plain on his website, and also on the McCann-doubter forums.
People buy his videos to have, to watch again, to share with friends etc. etc. - and many comments add as a further reason for buying the Madeleine films: "So we still have copies in circulation in case the McCanns try to ban them".
Also @ ShiningInLuz Hall publishes responses to his films and offers to correct any proven inaccuracies. He has a contact address on his website. Why not ask him your question about the weather charts direct? - he will probably answer you after his current tour ends. I have looked at available weather reports that week on the Algarve myself - and without question they all show that Saturday and Sunday (28th, 29th April 2007) were very sunny and warm, followed during Monday by a cold front which brought cooler, cloudier, windier weather - and some rain - for the rest of the week
Where did you find the weather charts? What was the source?
Quite aside from that, I still can't quite understand why so much of the first episode was based on the notion that parents had to pick up their children from the crèche HQs and then walk them over themselves to the Tapas restaurant when that was clearly not the case. Any ideas as to where this assumption came from?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 25, 2016, 09:15:07 PM
All this is made plain on his website, and also on the McCann-doubter forums.
People buy his videos to have, to watch again, to share with friends etc. etc. - and many comments add as a further reason for buying the Madeleine films: "So we still have copies in circulation in case the McCanns try to ban them".
Also @ ShiningInLuz Hall publishes responses to his films and offers to correct any proven inaccuracies. He has a contact address on his website. Why not ask him your question about the weather charts direct? - he will probably answer you after his current tour ends. I have looked at available weather reports that week on the Algarve myself - and without question they all show that Saturday and Sunday (28th, 29th April 2007) were very sunny and warm, followed during Monday by a cold front which brought cooler, cloudier, windier weather - and some rain - for the rest of the week
I'm more than happy to look at the weather reports for the Algarve that week. I've have tried to do so before. The only one I am aware of at this point in time is work that has been done for the weather station in Faro.
That one is better than nothing, but hardly precise for Luz.
Richard has made a comment on my blog in the past, and he is welcome to do so again. Whether it is his place or my place is not the point.
This thread appeared to me to have been started by someone who had more intelligence about Mr Hall's theory than I did. So my starting point for info was on here, in case someone could point me in the right direction.
I have no idea where Mr Hall posts in general, or how to get in touch with him.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 25, 2016, 10:36:44 PM
Where did you find the weather charts? What was the source?
Quite aside from that, I still can't quite understand why so much of the first episode was based on the notion that parents had to pick up their children from the crèche HQs and then walk them over themselves to the Tapas restaurant when that was clearly not the case. Any ideas as to where this assumption came from?
1. I just used 'Google' and searched 'Weather''Reports''Algarve'. You can do the same. You'll find exactly what I did all along the Algarve: Sat/Sun: WARM, SUNNY >>> Mon/Tues/Weds/Thurs: COOLER, LOTS OF CLOUD, WINDIER, SHOWERS
2. There is a conflict of evidence on this point, and I guess that Richard, the same as anyone else, has to decide which evidence to prefer. This statement is pretty clear:
Extract from the statement of Sarah Elizabeth Williamson:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would COLLECT THE TWINS FROM THE CRECHE.
Also, do a complete analysis of the drop-off and pick-up times of (a) the twins and (b) Madeleine that week. You'll find something very interesting
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 25, 2016, 10:38:02 PM
1. I just used 'Google' and searched 'Weather''Reports''Algarve'. You can do the same. You'll find exactly what I did all along the Algarve: Sat/Sun: WARM, SUNNY >>> Mon/Tues/Weds/Thurs: COOLER, LOTS OF CLOUD, WINDIER, SHOWERS
2. There is a conflict of evidence on this point, and I guess that Richard, the same as anyone else, has to decide which evidence to prefer. This statement is pretty clear:
Extract from the statement of Sarah Elizabeth Williamson:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would COLLECT THE TWINS FROM THE CRECHE.
Also, do a complete analysis of the drop-off and pick-up times of (a) the twins and (b) Madeleine that week. You'll find something very interesting
My apologies, but you will have to be a lot more clearer than that.
I am currently 2.5 hours through Mr Hall's 4 hours analysis of what happened. Meaning only 1.5 hours to go.
Plus, I have a backdated promise to Sadie to try to contribute to her Sadie's Theory thread.
Plus, I have my first Ghoul's Tour coming up. Don't worry about this one. It has nothing to do with ghouls and it is all under control. I think.
Then there is our imminent house purchase and move. So nothing big in the background.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 25, 2016, 11:01:11 PM
IMO the vast majority of statements are completely honest Mercury, and if there's any that are only almost completely honest just by leaving a few things out it's a very small number.
so does that mean you believe it was a stranger abduction or woke and wondered scenario then? Or possibly an aaccident/killing in the apartment by a stranger and body hidden (just going by your past posting about the bath panels not being checked etc) or have you no clear belief/indication? Obviously you don't have to say if you don't want to.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 26, 2016, 12:10:43 AM
IMO the vast majority of statements are completely honest Mercury, and if there's any that are only almost completely honest just by leaving a few things out it's a very small number.
Given the mass of blatant contradictions in the respective statements of Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann about an alleged visit by Payne to the McCanns' apartment at about 6.30pm on 3rd May (I have counted 20 in all), would you place either statement in the 'completely honest' or 'almost completely honest' categories?
If 'yes', which one?
This is a hugely significant set of contradictions as it purports to be the very last time that anyone apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine alive.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 26, 2016, 12:15:26 AM
Given the mass of blatant contradictions in the respective statements of Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann about an alleged visit by Payne to the McCanns' apartment at about 6.30pm on 3rd May (I have counted 20 in all), would you place either statement in the 'completely honest' or 'almost completely honest' categories?
If 'yes', which one?
This is a hugely significant set of contradictions as it purports to be the very last time that anyone apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine alive.
I tend to agree with this as Payne saying he went into the apartment and watched the kids playing and noticed many things bout them and chatting to Kate for 3-5 minutes is miles away from Kate saying he just knocked on the door, didn't come in and was there for 30 seconds..chalk and bleedin cheese
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 26, 2016, 12:23:48 AM
Given the mass of blatant contradictions in the respective statements of Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann about an alleged visit by Payne to the McCanns' apartment at about 6.30pm on 3rd May (I have counted 20 in all), would you place either statement in the 'completely honest' or 'almost completely honest' categories?
If 'yes', which one?
This is a hugely significant set of contradictions as it purports to be the very last time that anyone apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine alive.
That's the final piece of the jigsaw.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 26, 2016, 08:03:40 AM
This looks very much like an extraordinarily flippant response to a very serious set of clear contradictions.
the offer to remove any proven false statements is a Celestial teapot argument...your position is one therefore of a Celestial Teapot Believer and are not in a position to criticise others of flippancy
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 26, 2016, 09:12:26 AM
Given the mass of blatant contradictions in the respective statements of Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann about an alleged visit by Payne to the McCanns' apartment at about 6.30pm on 3rd May (I have counted 20 in all), would you place either statement in the 'completely honest' or 'almost completely honest' categories?
If 'yes', which one?
This is a hugely significant set of contradictions as it purports to be the very last time that anyone apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine alive.
Why would Dr Payne or Kate McCann have any reason to remember down to the last second, - something which at the time was so insignificant and which would have been totally overshadowed anyway by what happened a few hours later?
Dr Payne remembered stepping inside the apartment. KM only remembers seeing him at the open door. So what? it's not as if one is claiming he came in and sat down and Kate is saying that he stood outside and shouted to her through the patio door. Dr Payne thinks he was there for around 3-5 mins and Kate remembers around 30 seconds. Again so what? different people have completely different perceptions of the passage of time. Nothing at all odd in that.
IIRC Amaral stated that Kate said Dr Payne was there for 30 secs while Gerry claimed he was in the apartment for 30 mins. He seemed to think this was a major discrepancy. However, IMO it's arrant nonsense as GM could not possibly know how long Dr Payne was at 5a - because he wasn't there. Gerry was obviously referring to the time Dr Payne was gone from the tennis courts. Again - not necessarily totally accurate but again - so what?
None of the above was remotely important at the time it happened and so no-one felt the need to carefully commit any of it to their memories in precise detail for future reference.
It was only later that they had to try to recall it in detail. The idea that unless everyone came up with identical times and identical descriptions of what happened during a trivial few minutes out of a whole day's activities - then someone is being dishonest - is preposterous IMO.
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement) regarding the fallibility of memory.
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 26, 2016, 01:13:39 PM
Why would Dr Payne or Kate McCann have any reason to remember down to the last second, - something which at the time was so insignificant and which would have been totally overshadowed anyway by what happened a few hours later?
Dr Payne remembered stepping inside the apartment. KM only remembers seeing him at the open door. So what? it's not as if one is claiming he came in and sat down and Kate is saying that he stood outside and shouted to her through the patio door. Dr Payne thinks he was there for around 3-5 mins and Kate remembers around 30 seconds. Again so what? different people have completely different perceptions of the passage of time. Nothing at all odd in that.
IIRC Amaral stated that Kate said Dr Payne was there for 30 secs while Gerry claimed he was in the apartment for 30 mins. He seemed to think this was a major discrepancy. However, IMO it's arrant nonsense as GM could not possibly know how long Dr Payne was at 5a - because he wasn't there. Gerry was obviously referring to the time Dr Payne was gone from the tennis courts. Again - not necessarily totally accurate but again - so what?
None of the above was remotely important at the time it happened and so no-one felt the need to carefully commit any of it to their memories in precise detail for future reference.
It was only later that they had to try to recall it in detail. The idea that unless everyone came up with identical times and identical descriptions of what happened during a trivial few minutes out of a whole day's activities - then someone is being dishonest - is preposterous IMO.
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement) regarding the fallibility of memory.
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
excuses ...excuses...
no its a question for concern ......there wasn't a group of people there..
and it was't down to the last second ..was it
they managed to get the time line together...
as for remembering what happened that fateful day ...you would remember everything ...playing it in your mind like a video
why was it mentioned anyway ....to prove maddie was there?
you don't even know if she was ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 26, 2016, 02:10:35 PM
no its a question for concern ......there wasn't a group of people there..
and it was't down to the last second ..was it
they managed to get the time line together...
as for remembering what happened that fateful day ...you would remember everything ...playing it in your mind like a video
why was it mentioned anyway ....to prove maddie was there?
you don't even know if she was ...
I would have been tremendously suspicious if a group of seven people were in perfect accord and harmony in their account of events with every nano second accounted for and each and every statement slotting seamlessly into everyone else's.
But there you are ... it takes all kinds.
Anyway ... back to the nitty gritty of Richard Hall's latest oeuvre ... is there anyone out there who has had the stamina to have been able to subject themselves to all of it?
If so would they be kind enough to say if within the content any new light was cast on what may have happened to Madeleine McCann? if he produced any new thought that might have been helpful to the current investigation the genesis of which lies in her parents insistence? Or do they have any suggestions or ideas as to why he might have bothered to produce it at all?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 26, 2016, 02:56:41 PM
I would have been tremendously suspicious if a group of seven people were in perfect accord and harmony in their account of events with every nano second accounted for and each and every statement slotting seamlessly into everyone else's.
But there you are ... it takes all kinds.
Anyway ... back to the nitty gritty of Richard Hall's latest oeuvre ... is there anyone out there who has had the stamina to have been able to subject themselves to all of it?
If so would they be kind enough to say if within the content any new light was cast on what may have happened to Madeleine McCann? if he produced any new thought that might have been helpful to the current investigation the genesis of which lies in her parents insistence? Or do they have any suggestions or ideas as to why he might have bothered to produce it at all?
I'm 2.5 hours in and grinding slowly through. I should be able to provide a fair outline by the time I make it to the end, but that will be a fair while off, as my progress is slow.
Any new light? Perhaps, perhaps not.
There is one subset of conspiracy theorists who claim The Last Photo must have been made on a trip by the McCanns to the Ocean Club in 2006. I doubt you gave this much credence. But my trip yesterday to the Ocean Club undermined the 'evidence' behind this assertion.
Just to be clear, Mr Hall does not appear to be of the opinion that there was a 2006 trip. I simply got into the 2006 idea trying to find something else.
I was not aware of the details of the controversy over The Last Photo. Mr Hall is asking questions about which date it was produced, and the rather strange way it seems to have emerged into the public domain.
On my travels, again for something else, I got into the debate about the date and time of The Last Photo. I may be able to add something about the date in future. I believe I can nail the time of day, but I need to double check before sticking this idea on my blog.
These are hardly major breakthroughs. The most puzzling thing I have got out of this so far is how The Last Photo emerged. I haven't had the time thus far to subject this to some sanity testing, so that is for the future.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 26, 2016, 03:05:35 PM
All this is made plain on his website, and also on the McCann-doubter forums.
People buy his videos to have, to watch again, to share with friends etc. etc. - and many comments add as a further reason for buying the Madeleine films: "So we still have copies in circulation in case the McCanns try to ban them".
Also @ ShiningInLuzHall publishes responses to his films and offers to correct any proven inaccuracies. He has a contact address on his website. Why not ask him your question about the weather charts direct? - he will probably answer you after his current tour ends. I have looked at available weather reports that week on the Algarve myself - and without question they all show that Saturday and Sunday (28th, 29th April 2007) were very sunny and warm, followed during Monday by a cold front which brought cooler, cloudier, windier weather - and some rain - for the rest of the week
Hmmm. From having watched the first episode, it would take an enormous amount of time to point out everything that he got either wrong or didn't appear to understand.
Life's too short.
Do you know if he intends to tour the UK giving paying talks about this?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 26, 2016, 03:17:05 PM
Why would Dr Payne or Kate McCann have any reason to remember down to the last second, - something which at the time was so insignificant and which would have been totally overshadowed anyway by what happened a few hours later?
Dr Payne remembered stepping inside the apartment. KM only remembers seeing him at the open door. So what?
I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.
Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.
Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.
'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.
I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 26, 2016, 03:35:05 PM
I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.
Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.
Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.
'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.
I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.
Bang goes Pathfinder's theory (which involves an invitation from Person X to Person Y to come and molest the children resulting in a death).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on February 26, 2016, 03:38:09 PM
I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.
Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.
Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.
'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.
I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.
I don't remember David Payne saying he 'sat down' in his statement.
Anyway the fact that Kate says 30 seconds and David Payne says minutes means nothing at all, everyone expresses time differently, sometimes five minutes can seem like ten or fifteen.
Why would David Payne lie about calling in to see Kate?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 26, 2016, 03:48:41 PM
I'm 2.5 hours in and grinding slowly through. I should be able to provide a fair outline by the time I make it to the end, but that will be a fair while off, as my progress is slow.
Any new light? Perhaps, perhaps not.
There is one subset of conspiracy theorists who claim The Last Photo must have been made on a trip by the McCanns to the Ocean Club in 2006. I doubt you gave this much credence. But my trip yesterday to the Ocean Club undermined the 'evidence' behind this assertion.
Just to be clear, Mr Hall does not appear to be of the opinion that there was a 2006 trip. I simply got into the 2006 idea trying to find something else.
I was not aware of the details of the controversy over The Last Photo. Mr Hall is asking questions about which date it was produced, and the rather strange way it seems to have emerged into the public domain.
On my travels, again for something else, I got into the debate about the date and time of The Last Photo. I may be able to add something about the date in future. I believe I can nail the time of day, but I need to double check before sticking this idea on my blog.
These are hardly major breakthroughs. The most puzzling thing I have got out of this so far is how The Last Photo emerged. I haven't had the time thus far to subject this to some sanity testing, so that is for the future.
Recognising I probably lack the self discipline to sit through four hours of it I took the random route and looked at "reel 2". Old Mother Shipton, she of the cave near Knaresbrough, once said allegedly: "Around the world men's thoughts will fly, quick as the twinkling of an eye". Someone, possibly Mr Hall, once postulated this was OMS predicting email. I think I will now go "no bid" on the remaining three "reels".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2016, 04:32:39 PM
I watched the last one from cover to cover, but after 35 minutes of this one, I ain't doing that again. There is a limit to what I will do for this Forum.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 26, 2016, 07:00:20 PM
I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.
Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.
Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.
'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.
I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.
Please provide a cite for your claim that Dr Payne went in and 'sat down' in the apartment as IMO that would put a completely different complexion on things.
IMO there is no reason at all to particularly remember trivial events which happened hours BEFORE a major catastrophe. There would be no reason to make a point of remembering them in any detail at the time they occurred - because obviously - they couldn't see into the future and so would have no idea they could be important at a later time. Afterwards they would do their best to try to recall those events - but they would not be any more vivid then - than when they actually happened and so they would still probably struggle to precisely remember them in any detail.
I'm not impressed by posters who appear to completely dismiss or deny the proven fallibility of memory - which is responsible for so many discrepancies when it comes to different witnesses recalling the same events.
I see you ignored the reassurance from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement) when it came to memory recall. i.e.
QUOTE
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Maybe you think that Steve Retford a Specialist Interviewing Adviser with the force was being disingenuous when he said the following:
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
Some sceptics will of course continue to delude themselves that discrepancies must mean that lies are being told because that is what they want to believe - but fortunately professional policemen know that is definitely not the case. In fact they would be more likely to be suspicious if there were NO discrepancies as that would suggest collusion.
IMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 26, 2016, 07:03:16 PM
I'm 2.5 hours in and grinding slowly through. I should be able to provide a fair outline by the time I make it to the end, but that will be a fair while off, as my progress is slow.
Any new light? Perhaps, perhaps not.
There is one subset of conspiracy theorists who claim The Last Photo must have been made on a trip by the McCanns to the Ocean Club in 2006. I doubt you gave this much credence. But my trip yesterday to the Ocean Club undermined the 'evidence' behind this assertion.
Just to be clear, Mr Hall does not appear to be of the opinion that there was a 2006 trip. I simply got into the 2006 idea trying to find something else.
I was not aware of the details of the controversy over The Last Photo. Mr Hall is asking questions about which date it was produced, and the rather strange way it seems to have emerged into the public domain.
On my travels, again for something else, I got into the debate about the date and time of The Last Photo. I may be able to add something about the date in future. I believe I can nail the time of day, but I need to double check before sticking this idea on my blog.
These are hardly major breakthroughs. The most puzzling thing I have got out of this so far is how The Last Photo emerged. I haven't had the time thus far to subject this to some sanity testing, so that is for the future.
Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep. Good luck with it.
Words fail me when it comes to the 'last photo' and the other conspiracy theories ... unwieldy and clumsy in the main and in my opinion all requiring the suspension of belief or common sense and even at that are unworkable.
There is so much effort put into demonstrating the culpability of Madeleine's parents ... as I presume this oeuvre is just another example ... that one wonders what exactly is behind it all.
Scientists at Aberdeen Uni have produced a mathematical model looking at comparisons between the transmission of social phenomena and infectious diseases.
I've not read any abstract yet but I think it might prove an interesting summation of the way in which oddities as belief in notions such as the 'last photo conspiracy theory' generate and spread. https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/lifestyle/technology/846369/aberdeen-scientists-work-exactly-things-go-viral-online/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 26, 2016, 07:21:10 PM
Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep. Good luck with it.
Words fail me when it comes to the 'last photo' and the other conspiracy theories ... unwieldy and clumsy in the main and in my opinion all requiring the suspension of belief or common sense and even at that are unworkable.
There is so much effort put into demonstrating the culpability of Madeleine's parents ... as I presume this oeuvre is just another example ... that one wonders what exactly is behind it all.
Scientists at Aberdeen Uni have produced a mathematical model looking at comparisons between the transmission of social phenomena and infectious diseases.
I've not read any abstract yet but I think it might prove an interesting summation of the way in which oddities as belief in notions such as the 'last photo conspiracy theory' generate and spread. https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/lifestyle/technology/846369/aberdeen-scientists-work-exactly-things-go-viral-online/
From your link: He said: “We often witness social phenomena that become accepted by many people overnight, especially now in the age of social media.
“This is especially relevant to social contexts in which individuals initially hesitate to join a collective movement, for example a strike, because they fear becoming part of a minority that could be punished. But it also applies to new ideas or products.
“Mathematical models proposed in the past typically neglected the synergistic effects of acquaintances and were unable to explain explosive contagion, but we show that these effects are ultimately responsible for whether something catches on quickly.
“In very basic terms, our model shows that people’s opposition to accept a new idea acts as a barrier to large contagion, until the transmission of the phenomenon becomes strong enough to overcome that reluctance – at this point, explosive contagion happens.”
I prefer this explanation which is not a lot different:
..there is a raven in the eastern sea which is called Yitai ("dull-head"). This dull-head cannot fly very high and seems very stupid. It hops only a short distance and nestles close with others of its kind. In going forward, it dare not lead in going backward it dare not lag behind. At the time of feeding, it takes what is left over by the other birds. Therefore, the ranks of this bird are never depleted and nobody can do them any harm. A tree with a straight trunk is the first to be chopped down. A well with sweet water is the first to be drawn dry."
- TAIKUNG JEN, in a conversation with Confucius
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 26, 2016, 07:25:07 PM
One might wonder why RDH felt the need to add the question mark.
Does that make it less actionable? However I don't think he will be Rucked anyway ... unless they can find someone able to stay awake long enough to find why they should be offended.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 26, 2016, 07:44:45 PM
For the sake of our friends in the U.S., I will raise to '1 NO TRUMP'
Very good! did you nick that idea from, I believe it was, General Motors in the days when Nixon was President and Spiro Agnew was VP. GM wrote to Tricky Dicky and said "we'll fire a Vice President if you do the same".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 26, 2016, 07:53:48 PM
I would have been tremendously suspicious if a group of seven people were in perfect accord and harmony in their account of events with every nano second accounted for and each and every statement slotting seamlessly into everyone else's.
But there you are ... it takes all kinds.
Anyway ... back to the nitty gritty of Richard Hall's latest oeuvre ... is there anyone out there who has had the stamina to have been able to subject themselves to all of it?
If so would they be kind enough to say if within the content any new light was cast on what may have happened to Madeleine McCann? if he produced any new thought that might have been helpful to the current investigation the genesis of which lies in her parents insistence? Or do they have any suggestions or ideas as to why he might have bothered to produce it at all?
Reply to red font.
Really? You think all saying something different is more believable? OK does take all kinds as you say. However, they found time to play on words. Claiming they were 'checking' on the children regularly- quite obvious this was not the case. They failed to say it was a listening at the door system not an actual physical check. Maddie could have been missing for a couple of hours before the alarm was raised...
DP on that visit another anomaly he can't recall why he was there? WTF.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2016, 08:05:34 PM
Does that make it less actionable? However I don't think he will be Rucked anyway ... unless they can find someone able to stay awake long enough to find why they should be offended.
They won't. Too, too boring. I nearly died after 35 minutes.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2016, 08:07:23 PM
Gosh. Have The McCanns been arrested?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 26, 2016, 08:11:56 PM
Really? You think all saying something different is more believable? OK does take all kinds as you say. However, they found time to play on words. Claiming they were 'checking' on the children regularly- quite obvious this was not the case. They failed to say it was a listening at the door system not an actual physical check. Maddie could have been missing for a couple of hours before the alarm was raised...
.... ...... on that visit another anomaly he can't recall why he was there? WTF.
If you have a gang employed in some nefarious activity ... it is only respectful to law enforcement to get the alibis straight, word perfect and bombproof. Mr hall and others seem to miss that elementary point in its entirety.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 27, 2016, 09:41:56 AM
1. I just used 'Google' and searched 'Weather''Reports''Algarve'. You can do the same. You'll find exactly what I did all along the Algarve: Sat/Sun: WARM, SUNNY >>> Mon/Tues/Weds/Thurs: COOLER, LOTS OF CLOUD, WINDIER, SHOWERS
2. There is a conflict of evidence on this point, and I guess that Richard, the same as anyone else, has to decide which evidence to prefer. This statement is pretty clear:
Extract from the statement of Sarah Elizabeth Williamson:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would COLLECT THE TWINS FROM THE CRECHE.
Also, do a complete analysis of the drop-off and pick-up times of (a) the twins and (b) Madeleine that week. You'll find something very interesting
That statement seems confused:
"When the parents picked up the twins at lunch time, all the children were together in the same place so they picked up Madeleine as well."
Is there any other statement that says that the children of both crèches were in the same location for collection at lunchtime? It was at high tea that all the children were in the same place - the Tapas restaurant.
High tea was a crèche activity in the sense that the children were still under the supervision of the crèche nannies until the parents signed them out.
Unless there is a time warp running through the middle of PdL, how could parents collect their kids at the crèche HQs at around 17:30 pm when they were at the Tapas having their high tea from 17:00 to 17:30?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 27, 2016, 10:26:26 AM
It was high tea. Gerry collected the twins at 4:45 and Madeleine came with her group to the tapas eating area. Kate went running. Amaral was correct - Madeleine was alive at 5:30pm on 3 May.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 27, 2016, 11:06:26 AM
It was high tea. Gerry collected the twins at 4:45 and Madeleine came with her group to the tapas eating area. Kate went running. Amaral was correct - Madeleine was alive at 5:30pm on 3 May.
Why would Gerry (or any other parent collecting their own toddlers) have collected the twins from the crèche when the nannies were there to escort the toddlers to the Tapas, which was the standard end-of-afternoon meeting place?
However muddled some of the early statements are, I can find nothing to indicate that anyone had a doubt as to her potential absence from somewhere she should have been.
If someone (anyone who knew her or would have recognised her) had said "Well, that's odd. She was supposed to have been here with us at x time, but wasn't", then that might have been a red flag to check out. I can find no such doubts in the files.
Some of the initial statements are confusing and a bit muddled at times. The second round of interviews was more thorough with more potential misunderstandings clarified.
But some people insist on cherry-picking those initial statements as if they had been thorough interviews without any language barriers, but with officers trained to investigate child disappearances and with adequate resources. This wasn't the case.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 27, 2016, 01:13:54 PM
@ Brietta Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep. Good luck with it.
i find it hard to believe ...you have not watched the film [human nature and all that]...what i do find odd though is no one has challenged anything R H ..has shown to prove him wrong
it seems it is simpler for you and others to say you haven't seen it ...rather than disagree with what he has shown because you cant
the credibility of the film is there ....i was so disturbed after watching the end of part four ...even i think now there is something more sinister ...it is very powerful...even to the point were i cant as yet go to far into it
why was the last photo.......given three weeks later...[was it to get the date changed]..it was in the camera fgs
why was the pic they gave to police ....eighteen months old ...when they had up to date ones as maddie was.....
why was the mccs never seen as a family of five...after the 29th
was maddie mistook for lilly ...who looked very similar
why did the mccs along with the ...abduction...insist it was by a ring 'pedophile ring[what was the reason for that]
just a couple of things to think about....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 27, 2016, 01:34:58 PM
@ Brietta Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep. Good luck with it.
i find it hard to believe ...you have not watched the film [human nature and all that]...what i do find odd though is no one has challenged anything R H ..has shown to prove him wrong
it seems it is simpler for you and others to say you haven't seen it ...rather than disagree with what he has shown because you cant
the credibility of the film is there ....i was so disturbed after watching the end of part four ...even i think now there is something more sinister ...it is very powerful...even to the point were i cant as yet go to far into it
why was the last photo.......given three weeks later...[was it to get the date changed]..it was in the camera fgs
why was the pic they gave to police ....eighteen months old ...when they had up to date ones as maddie was.....
why was the mccs never seen as a family of five...after the 29th
was maddie mistook for lilly ...who looked very similar
why did the mccs along with the ...abduction...insist it was by a ring 'pedophile ring[what was the reason for that]
just a couple of things to think about....
May I assure you that when I say I have not watched Richard Hall's oeuvres ... I mean exactly that ... I have not watched; the latest because it induced sleep the previous because I found it an impossibility to waste precious time on arrant nonsense, despite a try.
If you are content to have your intelligence insulted, that's fine; but it is not for me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 27, 2016, 01:41:36 PM
I actually went through the first episode of the latest series.
Much of it was based on a "misunderstanding" of how the crèche arrangements worked.
Did Richard Hall do his own research, or was he relying on other so-called "researchers"?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 27, 2016, 01:42:22 PM
@ Brietta Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep. Good luck with it.
i find it hard to believe ...you have not watched the film [human nature and all that]...what i do find odd though is no one has challenged anything R H ..has shown to prove him wrong
it seems it is simpler for you and others to say you haven't seen it ...rather than disagree with what he has shown because you cant
the credibility of the film is there ....i was so disturbed after watching the end of part four ...even i think now there is something more sinister ...it is very powerful...even to the point were i cant as yet go to far into it
why was the last photo.......given three weeks later...[was it to get the date changed]..it was in the camera fgs
why was the pic they gave to police ....eighteen months old ...when they had up to date ones as maddie was.....
why was the mccs never seen as a family of five...after the 29th
was maddie mistook for lilly ...who looked very similar
why did the mccs along with the ...abduction...insist it was by a ring 'pedophile ring[what was the reason for that]
just a couple of things to think about....
I have challenged and proved him wrong...in his introduction he says the cadaver dog alerted to the previous presence of a dead body...that is a lie......I didn't bother with anything else...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 27, 2016, 01:49:30 PM
@ Brietta Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep. Good luck with it.
i find it hard to believe ...you have not watched the film [human nature and all that]...what i do find odd though is no one has challenged anything R H ..has shown to prove him wrong
it seems it is simpler for you and others to say you haven't seen it ...rather than disagree with what he has shown because you cant
the credibility of the film is there ....i was so disturbed after watching the end of part four ...even i think now there is something more sinister ...it is very powerful...even to the point were i cant as yet go to far into it
why was the last photo.......given three weeks later...[was it to get the date changed]..it was in the camera fgs
why was the pic they gave to police ....eighteen months old ...when they had up to date ones as maddie was.....
why was the mccs never seen as a family of five...after the 29th
was maddie mistook for lilly ...who looked very similar
why did the mccs along with the ...abduction...insist it was by a ring 'pedophile ring[what was the reason for that]
just a couple of things to think about....
I have indeed watched the whole of the 4 film sequence.
In summary - in order for his take on this case to be credible you would need to believe there is a huge international consipracy to dupe the world population by a small cabal of wealthy, ruthless and influential people, aided and abetted by the "MSM".
The same view is rehearsed in other areas he covers in his various films and writings - 9/11,7/7, aliens etc.
You may be convinced of this viewpoint, in which case good luck. I am not.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on February 27, 2016, 03:09:07 PM
A huge mistake of this film is going down the falsified creche records route. Absolutely wrong. Completely the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 27, 2016, 03:56:31 PM
A huge mistake of this film is going down the falsified creche records route. Absolutely wrong. Completely the wrong direction.
I lost the will to live after that nonsense as well.
There are numerous self-proclaimed 'researchers' high-fiving themselves on their contribution to Hall's latest. Did he actually check anything for himself, or did he simply rely on their 'expert assessments'?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on February 27, 2016, 04:27:51 PM
I lost the will to live after that nonsense as well.
There are numerous self-proclaimed 'researchers' high-fiving themselves on their contribution to Hall's latest. Did he actually check anything for himself, or did he simply rely on their 'expert assessments'?
I've got nothing against deluded theories in general, but what I object to about this one is the thoughtless accusations it makes against and excellent and honest employee.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on February 27, 2016, 04:29:47 PM
I lost the will to live after that nonsense as well.
There are numerous self-proclaimed 'researchers' high-fiving themselves on their contribution to Hall's latest. Did he actually check anything for himself, or did he simply rely on their 'expert assessments'?
I've got nothing against people making incorrect theories in general, but what I object to about this film is the thoughtless accusations it makes against an excellent and honest employee.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 27, 2016, 08:13:28 PM
I have indeed watched the whole of the 4 film sequence.
In summary - in order for his take on this case to be credible you would need to believe there is a huge international consipracy to dupe the world population by a small cabal of wealthy, ruthless and influential people, aided and abetted by the "MSM".
The same view is rehearsed in other areas he covers in his various films and writings - 9/11,7/7, aliens etc.
You may be convinced of this viewpoint, in which case good luck. I am not.
Why is it that the conspiracy theorists fail to grasp that if their delusions were factual ... no-one would ever have heard of Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 09:05:10 AM
Does anyone have more info on where Mr Hall got this Luz weather chart?
The video is rather vague on this. It is attributed to an ex-RAF ex-pat living in Luz who kept a daily diary of the weather.
I have been trying to establish more by checking the usual suspects, so far without success.
Please note, the chart was referenced by Mr Hall wrt 'the Last Photo' and when 'the Last Photo' was taken. That is not my interest, though I have now waded through umpteen 'Last Photo' threads in the hope the weather chart might be in it. The nearest I have got is detailed weather charts for Faro, which I consider to be of limited value re the weather in Luz, given the distance between the two.
I have also waded through threads compiling and comparing statements made about the weather, and again, that is not what I am looking for.
I am looking for further information about this chart, the person behind it, and how the chart was built up. Does anyone know?
Possibly not what you were looking for, but here are some Sagres charts (with thanks for links that someone found), which would be closer than Faro. (Lagos charts don't seem to go back that far.)
Sunshine hours, showing 11.5 hours for 3 May (and only 8 for 2 May, which is when it rained in the morning).
May I assure you that when I say I have not watched Richard Hall's oeuvres ... I mean exactly that ... I have not watched; the latest because it induced sleep the previous because I found it an impossibility to waste precious time on arrant nonsense, despite a try.
If you are content to have your intelligence insulted, that's fine; but it is not for me.
ah but that's it you see.....i am not content with having my intelligence insulted..
how can you give an honest opinion ....when you say you haven't even seen it
well u maybe don't have any interest in what he says not suprising really.... because you cannot prove anything he has said is not true
but looking at the amount of views this thread has ...in just one week [3.457] thousands of people are interested in what R H has to say. .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 10:24:30 AM
Possibly not what you were looking for, but here are some Sagres charts (with thanks for links that someone found), which would be closer than Faro. (Lagos charts don't seem to go back that far.)
Sunshine hours, showing 11.5 hours for 3 May (and only 8 for 2 May, which is when it rained in the morning).
Possibly not what you were looking for, but here are some Sagres charts (with thanks for links that someone found), which would be closer than Faro. (Lagos charts don't seem to go back that far.)
Sunshine hours, showing 11.5 hours for 3 May (and only 8 for 2 May, which is when it rained in the morning).
Credit goes largely to others. I'd been searching for Lagos charts, which I couldn't find. I then discovered weatheronline and had found links including 3 May, but someone passed me someone else's links covering a wider span of dates either side of those and I posted those instead of my own.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2016, 11:14:18 AM
Credit goes largely to others. I'd been searching for Lagos charts, which I couldn't find. I then discovered weatheronline and had found links including 3 May, but someone passed me someone else's links covering a wider span of dates either side of those and I posted those instead of my own.
As it happens, I have seen the Sagres info before, but it is one of those bits of info that I simply could not dig out again.
We now have Sagres, 14 miles from Luz v Faro, 40 miles from Luz.
All good stuff!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 11:25:40 AM
the last sunny day was the Sunday .....why did the mccs ...take three weeks to show that photo ...if it had been the last one took.....
instead giving P J one that was eighteen months old
What would be the point of prioritising the last photo of a missing child if it shows her looking sideways and is therefore only a profile? Her full face would have been more important to show to help distinguish her from other little blonde 3-year-olds.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 28, 2016, 11:34:27 AM
the last sunny day was the Sunday .....why did the mccs ...take three weeks to show that photo ...if it had been the last one took.....
instead giving P J one that was eighteen months old
And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm'. FP
I think there was also some talk about Matt’s, Matt’s brush with the err, with the Atlantic, erm you know, so you know there was, there was good humour, you know, this was the by far the kind of, the brightest sunniest and probably happiest day of the holiday, you know everyone had had a, a very, very good day”. ROB
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on February 28, 2016, 11:35:22 AM
Nothing suitable from their recent Donegal holiday either, then?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 28, 2016, 11:38:52 AM
What would be the point of prioritising the last photo of a missing child if it shows her looking sideways and is therefore only a profile? Her full face would have been more important to show to help distinguish her from other little blonde 3-year-olds.
there were three others...showing full face ...hair length etc etc..strange only 4 photo's on a weeks holiday...
what is the point showing one 18 months old ....that didn't resemble maddie ...as she was ...
mind you i don't know why i am bothering to answer ....she wasn't going to be found anyway was she ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 11:41:29 AM
there were three others...showing full face ...hair length etc etc..strange only 4 photo's on a weeks holiday...
what is the point showing one 18 months old ....that didn't resemble maddie ...as she was ...
mind you i don't know why i am bothering to answer ....she wasn't going to be found anyway was she ....
If your child had been missing, what would you (or your family / friends) have chosen as a photo to help find her? One that was the latest on the camera, whether it helped to distinguish her or not, a face-on one of her but scrunched up in laughter, or one that showed her full face with most salient features visible?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 11:57:41 AM
There might have been, but the key issue was to quickly find a photo that could easily distinguish her from others who may have resembled her.
i don't understand the problem...
Possibly neither McCann was big on photography?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:11:45 PM
For some reason, the links don't work entirely as expected.
Min/ max temps for Sagres:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:14:57 PM
Sagres sunshine:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:19:42 PM
Faro sunshine:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:24:05 PM
The level of sunshine in Sagres on 3 May does not appear to correspond to the level of sunshine in Faro on 3 May 2007.
That may not be surprising if the fronts come in from the West - bad weather on 2 May could have passed over to Faro the next day.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:26:35 PM
For clarification, the first box "4" in the search boxes underneath the graph does not concern the date, but the number of weeks for which information is sought.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 28, 2016, 12:26:59 PM
there were three others...showing full face ...hair length etc etc..strange only 4 photo's on a weeks holiday...
what is the point showing one 18 months old ....that didn't resemble maddie ...as she was ...
mind you i don't know why i am bothering to answer ....she wasn't going to be found anyway was she ....
I think that says more about the parents on that holiday than the children. Kate did sleep in the kids bedroom the night before. I agree it was strange releasing a photo of Madeleine that didn't look like her when you are trying to find her. That is a serious question that needs addressing.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:36:23 PM
The previous weekend does indeed to have been lovely weather, which got worse during the course of the week UNTIL Thursday.
Taking Faro (further east) as evidence of weather the previous day further to the west doesn't appear to be the best estimation of local conditions and therefore the allegation that the "last photo" couldn't have been taken in PdL on the date cited due to weather appears to be yet another "misunderstanding".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:40:50 PM
Researchers made errors in this documentary and RH will be taking the flack. Thursday was sunny in the afternoon when Russ and Matt went sailing. They believe the Boyd family are in on it and god knows who else. Madeleine was at the Tapas area for high tea and the documentary thinks different. They wrongly assumed Madeleine was still at the creche above the reception and therefore couldn't be seen by tapas staff. If they release PE background pic of Madeleine taking on the 3 May 2007 this theory would be finished.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:49:38 PM
Researchers made errors in this documentary and RH will be taking the flack. Thursday was sunny in the afternoon when Russ and Matt went sailing. They believe the Boyd family are in on it and god knows who else. Madeleine was at the Tapas area for high tea and the documentary thinks different. They wrongly assumed Madeleine was still at the creche above the reception and therefore couldn't be seen by tapas staff. If they release PE background pic of Madeleine taking on the 3 May 2007 this theory would be finished.
I see no reason why PE should release holiday photos to the media to satisfy the curiosity of armchair detectives.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 28, 2016, 12:53:28 PM
Researchers made errors in this documentary and RH will be taking the flack. Thursday was sunny in the afternoon when Russ and Matt went sailing. They believe the Boyd family are in on it and god knows who else. Madeleine was at the Tapas area for high tea and the documentary thinks different. They wrongly assumed Madeleine was still at the creche above the reception and therefore couldn't be seen by tapas staff. If they release PE background pic of Madeleine taking on the 3 May 2007 this theory would be finished.
There were errors in Richard Hall's last film, so not surprising really. It's up to him to check if his researchers can't be trusted, which they obviously can't.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:55:20 PM
Researchers made errors in this documentary and RH will be taking the flack. Thursday was sunny in the afternoon when Russ and Matt went sailing. They believe the Boyd family are in on it and god knows who else. Madeleine was at the Tapas area for high tea and the documentary thinks different. They wrongly assumed Madeleine was still at the creche above the reception and therefore couldn't be seen by tapas staff. If they release PE background pic of Madeleine taking on the 3 May 2007 this theory would be finished.
He may well take the flak.
However, if he was relying on so-called researchers without checking for himself, then, erm, perhaps he should have done?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 12:57:04 PM
No doubt. But unless there is some suspicious person in the background whom they'd like to identify, why would the Met release any such photos?
They probably won't release it. I think we know who is behind RH research but he's not allowed to reveal his name from past history with the McCanns. He is a liability to this investigation with his crazy outlandish theories.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 28, 2016, 01:48:41 PM
why would maddie say that was the best day of her life [last day] ....strange thing to say ....especially when her friend Elle ...was taken out the creche to spend it on the beach
there is nothing credible...... about the abduction certainly no proof
R H shows ....there are so so many inconsistencies .....and whats more is no one has challenged him ...that what he shows is not true ...
not like the mccs is it ......
it is remarkable also .....no DNA in that apartment of maddie ....is that because the apartment had been sterilised
it shows you .......there is no proof maddie was there after the Sunday .....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 01:52:55 PM
why would maddie say that was the best day of her life [last day] ....strange thing to say ....especially when her friend Elle ...was taken out the creche to spend it on the beach
there is nothing credible...... about the abduction certainly no proof
R H shows ....there are so so many inconsistencies .....and whats more is no one has challenged him ...that what he shows is not true ...
not like the mccs is it ......
it is remarkable also .....no DNA in that apartment of maddie ....is that because the apartment had been sterilised
it shows you .......there is no proof maddie was there after the Sunday .....
First things first.
Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?
Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 28, 2016, 01:53:35 PM
Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?
Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?
OK, then, first things first.
FIRST: "Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?"
ANSWER: Yes, I have, actually. Elizabeth Williamson (crèche nanny) is clear; the children were collected from their respective creches, not when they were allegedly all together at any 'high tea':
STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
The problem is simply this. There is seriously conflicting evidence about whether there really was any 'high tea' that day (Thursday) on the Tapas bar - or any other day. As I said up the thread, everyone who examines this conflicting evidence has to decide how to resolve this conflict of evidence.
==========
Now second things second: "Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?"
ANSWER: Again, yes I have. The 'problem' is that the weather on the Thursday that week does not match the weather on the Last Photo.
Frankly I find the efforts by some on this thread to try to change what the weather actually WAS on that Thursday lunchtime quite laughable.
The Last Photo is clear:
* Sunny * Warm * Gerry in sunglasses (the ones bought on Tuesday???) * Perspiration on Gerry's forehead * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry in shorts * Madeleine bare-armed * Amelie bare-armed * Madeleine with sun hat * Amelie with sun hat * Gerry's feet dipped in cold water pool.
The midday temperature on Sunday lunchtime was 21oC (70oF).
On Thursday lunchtime it was a mere 17oC (63oF).
If there is any further attempt by anyone on this thread to say it was warm and sunny on the Thursday when it wasn't, then let Dr Kate McCann speak for herself ("madeleine", hardback ed., page 63, QUOTE:
"The weather was a little on the cool side and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her..."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 28, 2016, 03:10:25 PM
FIRST: "Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?"
ANSWER: Yes, I have, actually. Elizabeth Williamson (crèche nanny) is clear; the children were collected from their respective creches, not when they were allegedly all together at any 'high tea':
STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
The problem is simply this. There is seriously conflicting evidence about whether there really was any 'high tea' that day (Thursday) on the Tapas bar - or any other day. As I said up the thread, everyone who examines this conflicting evidence has to decide how to resolve this conflict of evidence.
==========
Now second things second: "Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?"
ANSWER: Again, yes I have. The 'problem' is that the weather on the Thursday that week does not match the weather on the Last Photo.
Frankly I find the efforts by some on this thread to try to change what the weather actually WAS on that Thursday lunchtime quite laughable.
The Last Photo is clear:
* Sunny * Warm * Gerry in sunglasses (the ones bought on Tuesday???) * Perspiration on Gerry's forehead * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry in shorts * Madeleine bare-armed * Amelie bare-armed * Madeleine with sun hat * Amelie with sun hat * Gerry's feet dipped in cold water pool.
The midday temperature on Sunday lunchtime was 21oC (70oF).
On Thursday lunchtime it was a mere 17oC (63oF).
If there is any further attempt by anyone on this thread to say it was warm and sunny on the Thursday when it wasn't, then let Dr Kate McCann speak for herself ("madeleine", hardback ed., page 63, QUOTE:
"The weather was a little on the cool side and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her..."
very well explained blonk....thank you 8((()*/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 03:13:19 PM
fgs there were only 4/5.....the ones in the play area three of the 4/5...was said to be took on the Wednesday ......yet they have the same cloths on as when they arrived .....
the video on the bus ...were g mcc said he wasn't there to enjoy himself...shows what they were wearing
so it is possible the play park ones ....is just after they arrived...not took on the Wednesday as the mccs said
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
FIRST: "Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?"
ANSWER: Yes, I have, actually. Elizabeth Williamson (crèche nanny) is clear; the children were collected from their respective creches, not when they were allegedly all together at any 'high tea':
STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
The problem is simply this. There is seriously conflicting evidence about whether there really was any 'high tea' that day (Thursday) on the Tapas bar - or any other day. As I said up the thread, everyone who examines this conflicting evidence has to decide how to resolve this conflict of evidence.
==========
Now second things second: "Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?"
ANSWER: Again, yes I have. The 'problem' is that the weather on the Thursday that week does not match the weather on the Last Photo.
Frankly I find the efforts by some on this thread to try to change what the weather actually WAS on that Thursday lunchtime quite laughable.
The Last Photo is clear:
* Sunny * Warm * Gerry in sunglasses (the ones bought on Tuesday???) * Perspiration on Gerry's forehead * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry in shorts * Madeleine bare-armed * Amelie bare-armed * Madeleine with sun hat * Amelie with sun hat * Gerry's feet dipped in cold water pool.
The midday temperature on Sunday lunchtime was 21oC (70oF).
On Thursday lunchtime it was a mere 17oC (63oF).
If there is any further attempt by anyone on this thread to say it was warm and sunny on the Thursday when it wasn't, then let Dr Kate McCann speak for herself ("madeleine", hardback ed., page 63, QUOTE:
"The weather was a little on the cool side and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her..."
I was asking Xtina... and you are presumably not her. But anyway.
Second point first: BlonK: "The 'problem' is that the weather on the Thursday that week does not match the weather on the Last Photo."
Which location was used for weather data?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 03:23:26 PM
FIRST: "Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?"
ANSWER: Yes, I have, actually. Elizabeth Williamson (crèche nanny) is clear; the children were collected from their respective creches, not when they were allegedly all together at any 'high tea':
STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
The problem is simply this. There is seriously conflicting evidence about whether there really was any 'high tea' that day (Thursday) on the Tapas bar - or any other day. As I said up the thread, everyone who examines this conflicting evidence has to decide how to resolve this conflict of evidence.
==========
Now second things second: "Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?"
ANSWER: Again, yes I have. The 'problem' is that the weather on the Thursday that week does not match the weather on the Last Photo.
Frankly I find the efforts by some on this thread to try to change what the weather actually WAS on that Thursday lunchtime quite laughable.
The Last Photo is clear:
* Sunny * Warm * Gerry in sunglasses (the ones bought on Tuesday???) * Perspiration on Gerry's forehead * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry in shorts * Madeleine bare-armed * Amelie bare-armed * Madeleine with sun hat * Amelie with sun hat * Gerry's feet dipped in cold water pool.
The midday temperature on Sunday lunchtime was 21oC (70oF).
On Thursday lunchtime it was a mere 17oC (63oF).
If there is any further attempt by anyone on this thread to say it was warm and sunny on the Thursday when it wasn't, then let Dr Kate McCann speak for herself ("madeleine", hardback ed., page 63, QUOTE:
"The weather was a little on the cool side and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her..."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 28, 2016, 03:28:06 PM
Not at all. I asked you a question and Blonk has answered in your place. And you are presumably not the same person.
If you can't answer my questions, than I have no objection to Blonk doing so on your behalf as long as it's clear.
well i answered your question .....and its an open thread ...for anyone to comment ...so what is strange about that ....and Blonk did explain it perfectly
my answer was
fgs there were only 4/5.....the ones in the play area three of the 4/5...was said to be took on the Wednesday ......yet they have the same cloths on as when they arrived .....
the video on the bus ...were g mcc said he wasn't there to enjoy himself...shows what they were wearing
so it is possible the play park ones ....is just after they arrived...not took on the Wednesday as the mccs said
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 03:56:43 PM
well i answered your question .....and its an open thread ...for anyone to comment ...so what is strange about that ....and Blonk did explain it perfectly
my answer was
fgs there were only 4/5.....the ones in the play area three of the 4/5...was said to be took on the Wednesday ......yet they have the same cloths on as when they arrived .....
the video on the bus ...were g mcc said he wasn't there to enjoy himself...shows what they were wearing
so it is possible the play park ones ....is just after they arrived...not took on the Wednesday as the mccs said
That still doesn't answer my question about the weather.
Perhaps either you or Blonk could clarify where the Algarve weather data came from?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 28, 2016, 04:05:16 PM
FIRST: "Have you noticed that there is a problem with where the children were collected from in the afternoon?"
ANSWER: Yes, I have, actually. Elizabeth Williamson (crèche nanny) is clear; the children were collected from their respective creches, not when they were allegedly all together at any 'high tea':
STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON:
She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
The problem is simply this. There is seriously conflicting evidence about whether there really was any 'high tea' that day (Thursday) on the Tapas bar - or any other day. As I said up the thread, everyone who examines this conflicting evidence has to decide how to resolve this conflict of evidence.
==========
Now second things second: "Have you noticed a problem with the weather charts?"
ANSWER: Again, yes I have. The 'problem' is that the weather on the Thursday that week does not match the weather on the Last Photo.
Frankly I find the efforts by some on this thread to try to change what the weather actually WAS on that Thursday lunchtime quite laughable.
The Last Photo is clear:
* Sunny * Warm * Gerry in sunglasses (the ones bought on Tuesday???) * Perspiration on Gerry's forehead * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry in shorts * Madeleine bare-armed * Amelie bare-armed * Madeleine with sun hat * Amelie with sun hat * Gerry's feet dipped in cold water pool.
The midday temperature on Sunday lunchtime was 21oC (70oF).
On Thursday lunchtime it was a mere 17oC (63oF).
If there is any further attempt by anyone on this thread to say it was warm and sunny on the Thursday when it wasn't, then let Dr Kate McCann speak for herself ("madeleine", hardback ed., page 63, QUOTE:
"The weather was a little on the cool side and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her..."
The twins were next to the tapas area when Gerry collected them. That documentary claimed Madeleine was above reception which is totally wrong. Your theories are invalid if you don't even know where the child was when seen by Tapas staff at high tea @)(++(* I've provided statements proving Thursday afternoon was sunny - Russ and Matt sailing. Fiona's statement. The men are in t-shirts and shorts at the Paraiso restaurant cctv images Thursday 3 May.
I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.
Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.
Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.
'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.
I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.
Please provide a cite for your statement that Dr Payne entered 5A and sat down as IMO that puts a whole new perspective on things if it's true.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 28, 2016, 05:10:55 PM
Please provide a cite for your statement that Dr Payne entered 5A and sat down as IMO that puts a whole new perspective on things if it's true.
well you would think more they should not have had him anywhere near ....and wouldn't you think before screaming abduction ...they would want to know more about the last person to check .....but no
the twins were back in the creche the very next day....you wouldn't trust no one ...but then again we are talking about the mccs
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 05:22:40 PM
Please provide a cite for your statement that Dr Payne entered 5A and sat down as IMO that puts a whole new perspective on things if it's true.
He won't be able to do that but talk about making much more than a point about it being one big happy family.
I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there.
485 "Did you open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or'' Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally'' 1485 "Yeah.' 00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err'' 1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.' Reply "Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn't, no I didn't go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it's early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry's, you know just finished over there, we're going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn't many minutes that I was, was there.' 1485 "Yeah.' 00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.' 1485 "Yeah.' Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.' 1485 "Did you actually go into the apartment'' Reply "I did.' 1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door'' Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.' 00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.' Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err'' 1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example'' Reply "I can't, no.' 1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child'' Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.' 1485 "And were they standing up' Sitting down'' Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.' 1485 "Did they actually acknowledge you'' Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.' 1485 "Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine'' 00:42:39 Reply "It was.' 1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.' Reply "Mm.' 1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.' Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.' 1485 "Three to five''
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 28, 2016, 05:39:51 PM
well you would think more they should not have had him anywhere near ....and wouldn't you think before screaming abduction ...they would want to know more about the last person to check .....but no
the twins were back in the creche the very next day....you wouldn't trust no one ...but then again we are talking about the mccs
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html
I have no idea what any of the above has got to do with my request for a cite that Dr Payne not only went into 5a - but he actually sat down according to Blonk.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 28, 2016, 06:35:56 PM
He won't be able to do that but talk about making much more than a point about it being one big happy family.
I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there.
485 "Did you open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or'' Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally'' 1485 "Yeah.' 00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err'' 1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.' Reply "Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn't, no I didn't go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it's early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry's, you know just finished over there, we're going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn't many minutes that I was, was there.' 1485 "Yeah.' 00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.' 1485 "Yeah.' Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.' 1485 "Did you actually go into the apartment'' Reply "I did.' 1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door'' Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.' 00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.' Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err'' 1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example'' Reply "I can't, no.' 1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child'' Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.' 1485 "And were they standing up' Sitting down'' Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.' 1485 "Did they actually acknowledge you'' Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.' 1485 "Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine'' 00:42:39 Reply "It was.' 1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.' Reply "Mm.' 1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.' Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.' 1485 "Three to five''
The door was open? Kate just got out of the shower? Something odd.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on February 28, 2016, 06:40:31 PM
Yes, the kids could have done a runner while she was otherwise occupied.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 06:52:44 PM
How are we doing on the weather front?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on February 28, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
ah but that's it you see.....i am not content with having my intelligence insulted..
how can you give an honest opinion ....when you say you haven't even seen it
well u maybe don't have any interest in what he says not suprising really.... because you cannot prove anything he has said is not true
but looking at the amount of views this thread has ...in just one week [3.457] thousands of people are interested in what R H has to say. .
My honest opinion is that I was unable to watch it ... beyond that I have made absolutely no comment on the content.
Every so often one sees a headline and thinks ... "Oh ... I wish I had said that".
Which was precisely my thought on reading John Niven's take on election candidates ... John Niven: This pair have a lot in common. The hair, the lies and the simple question that rules their every utterance, ‘How will this play with the morons?’ Read more at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/john-niven-pair-lot-common-7455586#4aBfUf56RUR12xFb.99
These guys are selling themselves and they have carried out the market research to do so; very much as individuals such as Richard Hall have spotted a niche and don't mind in the slightest making a quick buck out of the tragic case of a missing child. Apparently the more he rehashes the errors of the past to denigrate the child's family, the better his target audience appreciates it.
What is the point of massaging all that misinformation yet again? The world has moved forward and there is a push to actually find out what may have happened to that poor little girl.
It seems there are those who are not content that should happen ... perhaps therein lies the source of at least one conspiracy theory which is studiously ignored.
All in my very humble opinion of course.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 28, 2016, 07:26:29 PM
that is just plain silly ....maddie existed she was here...
do you honestly think ...if they came back without her ....
no one would care that she had gone ....
was her life so non important that no one would care...
just like that pair ...when they left her to the element's...of the dangers of being left on there own.
You mean you have not been reading some of the weird and wonderful imaginings prevalent on the threads of some fora.
Amazing since photographs feature as part of some, but there you are.
However if Mr Hall's and some others' worldwide and inter-galactic conspiracy theories were to have any currency whatsoever, I reiterate ... no-one would ever have heard of Madeleine McCann. I could enumerate very plausible (in conspiracy-land) reasons why not ... but I think it better if people just give it some rational thought to enable them to come to their own conclusions.
In my opinion ... the penny should drop reasonably quickly.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 28, 2016, 07:50:43 PM
You mean you have not been reading some of the weird and wonderful imaginings prevalent on the threads of some fora.
Amazing since photographs feature as part of some, but there you are.
However if Mr Hall's and some others' worldwide and inter-galactic conspiracy theories were to have any currency whatsoever, I reiterate ... no-one would ever have heard of Madeleine McCann. I could enumerate very plausible (in conspiracy-land) reasons why not ... but I think it better if people just give it some rational thought to enable them to come to their own conclusions.
In my opinion ... the penny should drop reasonably quickly.
Perhaps when researching your contrafibularities and exponential dichotomies of irreventular macroscopic conundrums, your pretextual conclusions would irreverencally produce inclemental evaluistic mediocrity. 8)--))
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 08:08:08 PM
Perhaps when researching your contrafibularities and exponential dichotomies of irreventular macroscopic conundrums, your pretextual conclusions would irreverencally produce inclemental evaluistic mediocrity. 8)--))
oh dear
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 28, 2016, 08:23:03 PM
I have no idea what any of the above has got to do with my request for a cite that Dr Payne not only went into 5a - but he actually sat down according to Blonk.
whether he sat down or not is unimportant, the inconsistency is the time he was there and the fact he said he went inside and chatted and perused for 3-5 mins when she said he didn't and was there for 30 seconds
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 28, 2016, 08:26:23 PM
Perhaps when researching your contrafibularities and exponential dichotomies of irreventular macroscopic conundrums, your pretextual conclusions would irreverencally produce inclemental evaluistic mediocrity. 8)--))
Que?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 28, 2016, 08:28:13 PM
Perhaps when researching your contrafibularities and exponential dichotomies of irreventular macroscopic conundrums, your pretextual conclusions would irreverencally produce inclemental evaluistic mediocrity. 8)--))
When I use a big word ... I generally do so in context.
However, pleased to see that you are at least trying to raise your game. The next trick will be constructing an intelligible sentence using standard English. Still a wee bit of work required there.
Do keep up the good work, though.
(a) ... sentences (b) ... even better ... On Topic Sentences
In the meantime, how is your research into Richard Hall's latest oeuvre progressing.
Well enough I hope to give us all a synopsis. (for those who may struggle with that 'big word' the dictionary says ... a brief summary or general survey).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 28, 2016, 08:33:25 PM
When I use a big word ... I generally do so in context.
However, pleased to see that you are at least trying to raise your game. The next trick will be constructing an intelligible sentence using standard English. Still a wee bit of work required there.
Do keep up the good work, though.
(a) ... sentences (b) ... even better ... On Topic Sentences
In the meantime, how is your research into Richard Hall's latest oeuvre progressing.
Well enough I hope to give us all a synopsis. (for those who may struggle with that 'big word' the dictionary says ... a brief summary or general survey).
When you use 'big words' , it is in a vain attempt to give the impression you actually know what you are talking about.
My response to yours was with humour, a concept you have difficulty with, it seems.
As to Mr. Hall's latest videos, I found approx 5 minutes more than enough.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 28, 2016, 08:34:22 PM
When I use a big word ... I generally do so in context.
However, pleased to see that you are at least trying to raise your game. The next trick will be constructing an intelligible sentence using standard English. Still a wee bit of work required there.
Do keep up the good work, though.
(a) ... sentences (b) ... even better ... On Topic Sentences
In the meantime, how is your research into Richard Hall's latest oeuvre progressing.
Well enough I hope to give us all a synopsis. (for those who may struggle with that 'big word' the dictionary says ... a brief summary or general survey).
There are a multitude of "oeuvres" in this world and available to read hear or watch in the www
Why get fixated? On R Halls' one?
Why aren't you attacking the dozens of "oeuvres" written by British journalists which were full of bullcrap and lies and you can include Clarence Mitchell in that list as he is a proven liar
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 28, 2016, 08:43:41 PM
The door was open? Kate just got out of the shower? Something odd.
Slarti the whole story is odd. He can't recall why he went, he can't recall seeing what Kate was wearing ( just out the shower) kids he recalled were happy and well looked after well apart from the mother going for a shower before putting the very happy tired kids to bed,leaving them alone- all standing! Hm..
story teller: he was inside she said he was out side, he said he can't recall what she was wearing she said she was just out the shower wearing a towel? Hm but err you know err like you do know they were very happy kids now what was the question about why I was there hahahaha AND this my dear friends is the apparently last 'independent' witness who saw Maddie alive. He isn't really the independent witness he just gives a time to seeing her alive, and happy before all the comings and goings. Something seriously wrong with this statement AND the reasons for him going to that apartment IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 28, 2016, 08:47:26 PM
When you use 'big words' , it is in a vain attempt to give the impression you actually know what you are talking about.
My response to yours was with humour, a concept you have difficulty with, it seems.
As to Mr. Hall's latest videos, I found approx 5 minutes more than enough.
*&*%£ 8((()*/
Oh and the word dictionary is a BIG WORD. summer has 6 letters... just saying Some people are so pretentious it jumps right out the page...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 28, 2016, 08:48:20 PM
Yes MTI something is not right not forgetting the "they decided NOT to take the kids to the play area, but then they decided they were going to" other inconsistency in a few statements
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 28, 2016, 08:49:59 PM
When I use a big word ... I generally do so in context.
However, pleased to see that you are at least trying to raise your game. The next trick will be constructing an intelligible sentence using standard English. Still a wee bit of work required there.
Do keep up the good work, though.
(a) ... sentences (b) ... even better ... On Topic Sentences
In the meantime, how is your research into Richard Hall's latest oeuvre progressing.
Well enough I hope to give us all a synopsis. (for those who may struggle with that 'big word' the dictionary says ... a brief summary or general survey).
Isn't that something to do with opening an egg? Are you a big endian or a little endian ? That would fit in with the general scheme of things.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 28, 2016, 09:19:27 PM
Put them in BOLD and big they will be truer if you do lol [/quote
8)><( The big word 'summer' has nothing to do with the word 'summary' OW Whood a thunk it... Do you think making it bold will help it look like it does?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2016, 09:26:30 PM
fgs there were only 4/5.....the ones in the play area three of the 4/5...was said to be took on the Wednesday ......yet they have the same cloths on as when they arrived .....
the video on the bus ...were g mcc said he wasn't there to enjoy himself...shows what they were wearing
so it is possible the play park ones ....is just after they arrived...not took on the Wednesday as the mccs said
The play park photo with the man in sunglasses can be timed. Not dated, but timed. It is almost certainly not the day they arrived, assuming they actually went to the Millennium on the day they arrived.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on February 28, 2016, 09:26:50 PM
Put them in BOLD and big they will be truer if you do lol
8)><( The big word 'summer' has nothing to do with the word 'summary' OW Whood a thunk it... Do you think making it bold will help it look like it does?
Dunno what's going on anymore but NO WORRIES...big letters
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on February 28, 2016, 09:32:05 PM
Slarti the whole story is odd. He can't recall why he went, he can't recall seeing what Kate was wearing ( just out the shower) kids he recalled were happy and well looked after well apart from the mother going for a shower before putting the very happy tired kids to bed,leaving them alone- all standing! Hm..
story teller: he was inside she said he was out side, he said he can't recall what she was wearing she said she was just out the shower wearing a towel? Hm but err you know err like you do know they were very happy kids now what was the question about why I was there hahahaha AND this my dear friends is the apparently last 'independent' witness who saw Maddie alive. He isn't really the independent witness he just gives a time to seeing her alive, and happy before all the comings and goings. Something seriously wrong with this statement AND the reasons for him going to that apartment IMO.
I'm not sure of the balance of the sexes on here but most normal men would notice if a woman answered the door wearing just a towel.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2016, 09:33:38 PM
well it wont have been freezing ....the photo shows them under cover ....not round the pool
That bit of the Paraíso was on the outdoors terrace. There was a large hospitable indoors area if they felt chilly. (The Paraíso is currently being revamped and that bit of outdoor dining will be enclosed when the changes are finished.)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on February 28, 2016, 09:35:26 PM
Is that cos you swallowed a whole brontosaurus at teatime today?
Is that your attempt at humour ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 28, 2016, 09:45:07 PM
This is the straight forward question 485 "Did you open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or''
Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally''
1485 "Yeah.' <<<<<<<<<<< this person sounds real interestd in this LONG, LONG, LONG answer. lol
Totally unconvincing answer to a simple non trick question. No wonder none of them talk to the press FFS.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on February 28, 2016, 09:45:39 PM
No, I'm still suffering from gunshot wounds after sitting through Hall's DVDs.
I think anyone who has the stamina for that deserves 8@??)(.
Did he impart anything at all worth recording for posterity or did it all go downhill from the point where I fell asleep (appx three minutes in as far as I could tell)?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 28, 2016, 10:37:02 PM
This is the straight forward question 485 "Did you open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or''
Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally''
1485 "Yeah.' <<<<<<<<<<< this person sounds real interested in this LONG, LONG, LONG answer. lol
Totally unconvincing answer to a simple non trick question. No wonder none of them talk to the press FFS.
Not only a wholly unconvincing answer to a 'yes' or 'no' question but also flatly contradicting Kate McCann...
...who said in her book ('madeleine', pp. 66-7) that Madeleine was "pale...worn out...exhausted..."
Payne said she looked 'so healthy'.
Who to believe?
Poor Kate even had to carry 2.5-stone Madeleine herself back to Apartment G5A ('madeleine', p. 67: "I was carrying Madeleine").
So exactly where was Gerry? Sauntering along with the twins, whilst his wife, Kate, was carrying a 2.5-stone child?
Something not quite right with that story
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 28, 2016, 10:39:46 PM
Did she answer the door? or did he just walk in through an open door?... was Maddie babysitting her siblings AGAIN whilst her mum went for a shower...
She said she had a shower but .... ...... would remember a towel. 6:30 was normally for the.................
"After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness." KM 6 Sep
"Gerry said he didn't know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers." GM 7 Sep
Oh dear what a pickle!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on February 28, 2016, 11:07:58 PM
I think anyone who has the stamina for that deserves 8@??)(.
Did he impart anything at all worth recording for posterity or did it all go downhill from the point where I fell asleep (appx three minutes in as far as I could tell)?
The only things I found to be of interest were the remarks about the owner of the Parasio restaurant, Miguel Matias and the fact his place is situated right opposite Cafe Fabrica. Some of the statement analysis regarding mistaken identification of Madeleine during the week also is probably correct.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 28, 2016, 11:30:19 PM
The only things I found to be of interest were the remarks about the owner of the Parasio restaurant, Miguel Matias and the fact his place is situated right opposite Cafe Fabrica. Some of the statement analysis regarding mistaken identification of Madeleine during the week also is probably correct.
Thanks, Misty.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 08:00:22 AM
strange how this line of questioning was mentioned..... seems as if for some reason he thought there were problems....why would he mention non of the children been told off...obviously he is referring to something ....he said he knows the family well ....so why the over kill ...of the perfect family...wouldn't he have always seen them like that ....there obviously had been trouble at some point with the mccs ...not the happy family they like you all to think
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 29, 2016, 08:04:11 AM
I asked that a while back Benice but got no reply, David Payne doesn't say he sat down in his statement.
Indeed Lace. IMO Kate thinking that he stood outside the door and Dr Payne thinking that he stood inside the door is not a significant discrepancy. However the difference between KM remembering him standing at the door and Dr Payne recalling that he walked in and then actually went and sat down is a more serious contradiction.
Bonk made this claim in his reply to me soundly rejecting my own post in which I pointed out that discrepancies can be accounted for by the proven fallibility of memory.
I'm sure Bonk did not deliberately lie when he claimed Dr Payne sat down in the apartment.
Therefore I can only assume that his claim must have come from his own memory of what Dr. Payne had said. There is no evidence that Dr Payne claimed to have sat down in 5A whilst talking to Kate - and therefore in making that erroneous claim - Bonk has himself effectively proved the fallibility of memory to which I referred.
AIMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 08:08:19 AM
There are too many contradictions. This was only hours before she disappeared and they both have completely different recollections. A detective would think they're probably hiding something.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 08:32:03 AM
@ benice
Indeed Lace. IMO Kate thinking that he stood outside the door and Dr Payne thinking that he stood inside the door is not a significant discrepancy. However the difference between KM remembering him standing at the door and Dr Payne recalling that he walked in and then actually went and sat down is a more serious contradiction.
does it matter fgs...[kept you awake has it]....he went in didn't he...she said he never ....he cant remember what she wore ...it would only have been a towel or a robe. [i did mean to put this in your post ..but it never worked] so
strange how this line of questioning was mentioned..... seems as if for some reason he thought there were problems....why would he mention non of the children been told off...obviously he is referring to something ....he said he knows the family well ....so why the over kill ...of the perfect family...wouldn't he have always seen them like that ....there obviously had been trouble at some point with the mccs ...not the happy family they like you all to think
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 29, 2016, 08:36:41 AM
There are too many contradictions. This was only hours before she disappeared and they both have completely different recollections. A detective would think they're probably hiding something.
Obviously they didn't think that as they have been ruled out of the investigation. A detective would recognise and take into account that they were being asked to recall a few minutes out of a whole day's activities and which carried no importance at all at the time. They would expect discrepancies.
This is the view of the police on discrepancies in statements from people witnessing the same event.
Quote from DC Ferguson
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 09:02:20 AM
Obviously they didn't think that as they have been ruled out of the investigation. A detective would recognise and take into account that they were being asked to recall a few minutes out of a whole day's activities and which carried no importance at all at the time. They would expect discrepancies.
This is the view of the police on discrepancies in statements from people witnessing the same event.
Quote from DC Ferguson
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
or maybe he was just relieved all was well ...... there wasn't the trouble he was expecting .....after all he knows the family well .....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 09:25:31 AM
Obviously they didn't think that as they have been ruled out of the investigation. A detective would recognise and take into account that they were being asked to recall a few minutes out of a whole day's activities and which carried no importance at all at the time. They would expect discrepancies.
This is the view of the police on discrepancies in statements from people witnessing the same event.
Quote from DC Ferguson
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Nobody is ruled out of anything in an unsolved case. Stop the circus statement explains it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 09:39:11 AM
Nobody is ruled out of anything in an unsolved case. Stop the circus statement explains it.
If you want to believe that a statement saying that neither the McCanns nor their friends are suspects or persons of interest actually means the McCanns and their friends ARE suspects and persons of interest - then that's not my problem
I see you have ignored the part of my post relating to the fallibility of memory being a proven cause for discrepancies.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 29, 2016, 09:46:22 AM
If you want to believe that a statement saying that neither the McCanns nor their friends are suspects or persons of interest actually means the McCanns and their friends ARE suspects and persons of interest - then that's not my problem
I see you have ignored the part of my post relating to the fallibility of memory being a proven cause for discrepancies.
So Benice, people who have been 'ruled out of a crime' could not be ruled back in.
Is that what you are saying ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 09:48:22 AM
If you want to believe that a statement saying that neither the McCanns nor their friends are suspects or persons of interest actually means the McCanns and their friends ARE suspects and persons of interest - then that's not my problem
I see you have ignored the part of my post relating to the fallibility of memory being a proven cause for discrepancies.
The PJ also said it in August 2007 when they were suspects. It means nothing. The police will tell you what they want you to know and nothing more!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 09:57:00 AM
A case of national security and 11 million and counting &%+((£
After a six month delay, Leicestershire has now claimed it is exempt from Freedom of Information laws in this case due to "national security".
I've put in dozens of FoI requests to police forces over the years, some you get and some you don't but "national security" is a new one on me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 29, 2016, 09:59:24 AM
he seemed rather pleased ...everything was fine ....
makes you think why g mcc asked him to go in the first place ...
What a very strange interpretation to put on an act that was designed to help Kate with three small children should she have wanted to take them out again. I seriously wonder how the minds of some people work.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 10:23:31 AM
What a very strange interpretation to put on an act that was designed to help Kate with three small children should she have wanted to take them out again. I seriously wonder how the minds of some people work.
And it's still unsolved so there's more to discover. There are too many contradictions about that visit for it to be the truth!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 10:33:07 AM
What a very strange interpretation to put on an act that was designed to help Kate with three small children should she have wanted to take them out again. I seriously wonder how the minds of some people work.
strange how peoples minds work ...yes....what was he going to help her with
it seems to me ..she had probably been in a mood.....he thought the children were going to be in trouble ...not to help in case she was going back out...
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 10:36:22 AM
She did sleep in the spare bed and didn't go with the rest to the beach. So it's hard to believe she was in a good mood the following day with Gerry.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on February 29, 2016, 10:38:18 AM
strange how peoples minds work ...yes....what was he going to help her with
it seems to me ..she had probably been in a mood.....he thought the children were going to be in trouble ...not to help in case she was going back out...
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
If Gerry had thought Kate would be in a mood then he wouldn't have gone out to play tennis in the first place in my opinion, he had helped to bath the children before he went, so he would know what sort of mood Kate was in.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 10:38:59 AM
If Gerry had thought Kate would be in a mood then he wouldn't have gone out to play tennis in the first place in my opinion, he had helped to bath the children before he went, so he would know what sort of mood Kate was in.
Normal bath time for the kids is 6:30 not Kate's.
Fiona talking to Gerry at tennis.
"Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren't there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 10:41:56 AM
strange how peoples minds work ...yes....what was he going to help her with
it seems to me ..she had probably been in a mood.....he thought the children were going to be in trouble ...not to help in case she was going back out...
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
Gerry asked him to call in. So do you think Gerry was worried that Kate might batter the children?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 29, 2016, 10:46:10 AM
In hindsight of the hideous rumours of Kate losing her temper and bashing Madeleine.
what rumours......................how do you know she didn't
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on February 29, 2016, 12:06:27 PM
Gerry said they played tennis until 16.30 and then stayed around until the twins went to the meal area at 16.45. Madeleine arrived at 17.00 with the teachers and the other children. The meal finished at 17.30.
He doesn't mention Kate's run to the beach which took place during that time. Cat Baker didn't see Gerry at the children's high tea. Kate signed the twins out at 17.25 and Madeleine at 17.30.
There's no independent evidence that Gerry was at high tea. There's no independent evidence that he went back to the apartment between 17.30 and 18.00.
If he didn't, that would explain why he asked David to check up on Kate.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 12:10:13 PM
There are too many contradictions. This was only hours before she disappeared and they both have completely different recollections. A detective would think they're probably hiding something.
Interesting. Not nearly as interesting as the man or men seen, one actually at the garden wall, staring intently at the McCann apartment only hours before Madeleine was abducted.
Did Mr Hall explain where they fitted in the jigsaw of events?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 12:45:42 PM
Interesting. Not nearly as interesting as the man or men seen, one actually at the garden wall, staring intently at the McCann apartment only hours before Madeleine was abducted.
Did Mr Hall explain where they fitted in the jigsaw of events?
watch it and see ....you seem fascinated... or why else keep mentioning him
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 12:46:41 PM
And it's still unsolved so there's more to discover. There are too many contradictions about that visit for it to be the truth!
I cannot believe the faux excitement generated by a friend coming to the apartment ... while strangers outside studying it cause not a ripple of interest.
That is probably the difference between video makers, armchair detectives and the real ones of the PJ and SY.
The latter of whom don't seem to be the slightest bit titillated by Dr Payne's brief visit ... far too busy looking for the real perpetrator/s.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 12:56:52 PM
I could be wrong in thinking it wasn't actionable if he did? One only has to traduces a person by implication for it to be libel.
Surely he wasn't that thick?
Surely he wasn't that thick?
what are you on about here ..i think you are calling the wrong one
stop being so obsessed ..with R H .....now R H being done for libel ...you wish
its what D P said in his statement that was odd
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
why did he expect the children to be in trouble ....when he knows the family ...
you know ...they are the perfect family ....but none of the children had been told off ...or where in trouble ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 01:26:41 PM
what are you on about here ..i think you are calling the wrong one
stop being so obsessed ..with R H .....now R H being done for libel ...you wish
its what D P said in his statement that was odd
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy,
there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
why did he expect the children to be in trouble ....when he knows the family ...
you know ...they are the perfect family ....but none of the children had been told off ...or where in trouble ...
I find your palpable ill will to all thing McCann rather strange as I presume they don't even know you exist, care even less and have never wished you or yours any harm.
However not nearly as strange as your promotion of a series of four videos made by Richard Hall and your apparent reluctance to discuss them.
Couldn't really have been much of substance in them after all.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on February 29, 2016, 01:34:49 PM
I find your palpable ill will to all thing McCann rather strange as I presume they don't even know you exist, care even less and have never wished you or yours any harm.
However not nearly as strange as your promotion of a series of four videos made by Richard Hall and your apparent reluctance to discuss them.
Couldn't really have been much of substance in them after all.
Seems to have managed to generate 24 pages of discussion whatever its substance.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 02:06:51 PM
I find your palpable ill will to all thing McCann rather strange as I presume they don't even know you exist, care even less and have never wished you or yours any harm.
However not nearly as strange as your promotion of a series of four videos made by Richard Hall and your apparent reluctance to discuss them.
Couldn't really have been much of substance in them after all.
what do you want to discuss ...when maddie died....the 29th april ...or the 3rd may
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 02:11:07 PM
Seems to have managed to generate 24 pages of discussion whatever its substance.
We may have 24 pages of discussion ... can you direct me to an in depth synopsis leading to informed discussion of Richard Hall's current oeuvre? I think you may struggle with that, although you will have no problem at all with finding in depth discussion re. a friend making a courtesy call during a tennis match.
I would say there isn't a great deal there about the latest great work. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on February 29, 2016, 02:17:42 PM
We may have 24 pages of discussion ... can you direct me to an in depth synopsis leading to informed discussion of Richard Hall's current oeuvre? I think you may struggle with that, although you will have no problem at all with finding in depth discussion re. a friend making a courtesy call during a tennis match.
I would say there isn't a great deal there about the latest great work. 8**8:/:
I would tend to agree. However its seems to be getting a number of people uptight about it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 02:26:21 PM
We may have 24 pages of discussion ... can you direct me to an in depth synopsis leading to informed discussion of Richard Hall's current oeuvre? I think you may struggle with that, although you will have no problem at all with finding in depth discussion re. a friend making a courtesy call during a tennis match.
I would say there isn't a great deal there about the latest great work. 8**8:/:
how the hell would you know if you haven't watched it .....how can you discuss it either ....if you haven't watched it
stick to what you know best...,.not what you don't know
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 02:54:50 PM
what R H has done ...is show...the abduction never took place .....the amount of serious inconsistency's .....
He as called the mccs liers ...R H has shown the other side ....the side so so many believe ...what ever there reason that maddie was not abducted ...even though not necessarily R H account.
R H ...had the guts to say what he thinks ....he has the opportunity ..and took it ....
unlike the cowards who dare only go along with the mccs
what i said in the O P.... now i wonder how this will go down with the mccs
at this moment in time ...nothing from them ....because obviously ....they have ran out of money ...or the cant do anything about it
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on February 29, 2016, 02:56:44 PM
how the hell would you know if you haven't watched it .....how can you discuss it either ....if you haven't watched it
stick to what you know best...,.not what you don't know
It appears that I am not in a minority of one when it comes to reluctance to watch Richard Hall's apparently tedious video. That is if the lack of informed comment is anything to go by.
For example, your opening post greets it with a measure of enthusiasm ... which makes your lack of posting comment from it leading to informed discussion ... very noticeable indeed.
Is it really that bad you have nothing of interest to say about it ... apart from berating me for not subjecting myself to the soporific effect of that voice?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 03:21:03 PM
what R H has done ...is show...the abduction never took place .....the amount of serious inconsistency's .....
He as called the mccs liers ...R H has shown the other side ....the side so so many believe ...what ever there reason that maddie was not abducted ...even though not necessarily R H account.
R H ...had the guts to say what he thinks ....he has the opportunity ..and took it ....
unlike the cowards who dare only go along with the mccs
what i said in the O P.... now i wonder how this will go down with the mccs
at this moment in time ...nothing from them ....because obviously ....they have ran out of money ...or the cant do anything about it
Is that it? £5%4%
Just a rehash of what has been said and promoted so many times before ... how tedious is that?
When on earth are you people going to realise that the world has moved on and left you far behind?
At the moment the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have filed all that sort of bampot stuff in the rubbish folder where it undoubtedly belongs and are spending their time and energy trying to solve the case.
They really do have concerns for the human rights of Madeleine McCann as opposed to paying lip service to them.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 29, 2016, 03:34:12 PM
Just a rehash of what has been said and promoted so many times before ... how tedious is that?
When on earth are you people going to realise that the world has moved on and left you far behind?
At the moment the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have filed all that sort of bampot stuff in the rubbish folder where it undoubtedly belongs and are spending their time and energy trying to solve the case.
They really do have concerns for the human rights of Madeleine McCann as opposed to paying lip service to them.
Bampot!
I had to google that.
Right, though ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 29, 2016, 03:35:13 PM
Just a rehash of what has been said and promoted so many times before ... how tedious is that?
When on earth are you people going to realise that the world has moved on and left you far behind?
At the moment the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have filed all that sort of bampot stuff in the rubbish folder where it undoubtedly belongs and are spending their time and energy trying to solve the case.
They really do have concerns for the human rights of Madeleine McCann as opposed to paying lip service to them.
The clearly bigger picture Brietta, is that the abduction is at ground zero as regards any evidence that could be proceeded on, along with any other scenario.
As to moving on, it is extremely apparent an increasing number of people think the abduction story is mere hogwash.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 03:53:58 PM
The clearly bigger picture Brietta, is that the abduction is at ground zero as regards any evidence that could be proceeded on, along with any other scenario.
As to moving on, it is extremely apparent an increasing number of people think the abduction story is mere hogwash.
I take it that mirrors Richard Hall's opinion as expressed in his video ... you will have watched all four avidly I presume.
As I understand it the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard presently are not caught up in the same time warp ... I wish them all the best in their endeavours to solve Madeleine's case ... you do too, I take it?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 04:01:53 PM
Just a rehash of what has been said and promoted so many times before ... how tedious is that?
When on earth are you people going to realise that the world has moved on and left you far behind?
At the moment the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have filed all that sort of bampot stuff in the rubbish folder where it undoubtedly belongs and are spending their time and energy trying to solve the case.
They really do have concerns for the human rights of Madeleine McCann as opposed to paying lip service to them.
The abduction......... %£5&%....is that it ...the mccs said so
How do you know what SY are doing ....and don't give they are not suspects ....PJ said the same ....and look what happened there
Can the mccs prove ....maddie was there after the sunday did anyone see her ....or was she mistook for Elle .....
why does k mcc prefer to be called Healy [all her personal stuff in that name]...apparently ..because that is who she is ....yet signed the creche records k mcc apart from the last one
why was maddie in the creche ....when they were all on the beach...
the mccs seemed to avoid group meetings .apart from the first day ...
the nannie kat baker ....was known to them.......the only one who suggests she saw maddie after the sunday
abduction 0%...proof .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 04:06:10 PM
Liars is not an acceptable word on this Forum. So please can we stop using it. Otherwise I shall have to delete it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 29, 2016, 04:16:08 PM
The abduction......... %£5&%....is that it ...the mccs said so
How do you know what SY are doing ....and don't give they are not suspects ....PJ said the same ....and look what happened there
Can the mccs prove ....maddie was there after the sunday did anyone see her ....or was she mistook for Elle .....
why does k mcc prefer to be called Healy [all her personal stuff in that name]...apparently ..because that is who she is ....yet signed the creche records k mcc apart from the last one
why was maddie in the creche ....when they were all on the beach...
the mccs seemed to avoid group meetings .apart from the first day ...
the nannie kat baker ....was known to them.......the only one who suggests she saw maddie after the sunday
I take it that mirrors Richard Hall's opinion as expressed in his video ... you will have watched all four avidly I presume.
As I understand it the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard are presently are not caught up in the same time warp ... I wish them all the best in their endeavours to solve Madeleine's case ... you do too, I take it?
That comment again reinforces the notion that you don't read other peoples comments. Try reading what I have typed about the videos.
As to SY and the Portuguese, can you tell me what they have achieved in their 'investigations' ?
Since sooner or later you will have to dig your head out of the sand on this.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 04:43:56 PM
R H called them the banned word ....so what do i use in its place ....told untruths or what.
If you are quoting comments or published text always use quotation marks thus... " " Always ensure you state who made the comment and if possible include a link to it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 04:52:29 PM
If you are quoting comments or published text always use quotation marks thus... " " Always ensure you state who made the comment and if possible include a link to it.
it would have to be the the CD concerned ....is that ok
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 04:56:18 PM
The abduction......... %£5&%....is that it ...the mccs said so
How do you know what SY are doing ....and don't give they are not suspects ....PJ said the same ....and look what happened there
Can the mccs prove ....maddie was there after the sunday did anyone see her ....or was she mistook for Elle .....
why does k mcc prefer to be called Healy [all her personal stuff in that name]...apparently ..because that is who she is ....yet signed the creche records k mcc apart from the last one
why was maddie in the creche ....when they were all on the beach...
the mccs seemed to avoid group meetings .apart from the first day ...
the nannie kat baker ....was known to them.......the only one who suggests she saw maddie after the sunday
abduction 0%...proof .
How many people would have had to have been complicit in covering up for Madeleine's absence if she had disappeared as of the Sunday?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on February 29, 2016, 04:59:31 PM
it would have to be the the CD concerned ....is that ok
From the video yes. It is always best to post a time stamp too so that viewers can find it easily. I can't comment on content just yet as I am only on Part 2.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 29, 2016, 05:28:37 PM
So Charlotte Pennington was making it all up when she said she read stories to Madeleine on May 3rd?
Or that Emma Wilding was lying when she claimed to have said Hello! to Gerry as he dropped Madeleine off at the creche that morning?
Charlotte Pennington...............is that the one who said ...maddie ...introduced herself as maddy ....when the mccs declared ...maddie insisted on being called madeleine...she hated maddy...so who was right there
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 05:39:19 PM
The abduction......... %£5&%....is that it ...the mccs said so
How do you know what SY are doing ....and don't give they are not suspects ....PJ said the same ....and look what happened there
Can the mccs prove ....maddie was there after the sunday did anyone see her ....or was she mistook for Elle .....
why does k mcc prefer to be called Healy [all her personal stuff in that name]...apparently ..because that is who she is ....yet signed the creche records k mcc apart from the last one
why was maddie in the creche ....when they were all on the beach...
the mccs seemed to avoid group meetings .apart from the first day ...
the nannie kat baker ....was known to them.......the only one who suggests she saw maddie after the sunday
abduction 0%...proof .
Ah ha ... is that what is in the video??
The great ... who saw Madeleine after Sunday conspiracy??? Well they do say that 'truth is stranger than fiction'.
C'mon ... c'mon ... don't keep it to yourself. How does he think ... they ... dunnit?
All very convenient for those actually responsible for stealing a little girl from her bed ... more PR than money could buy ... who says crime doesn't pay? However I hope they have been feeling a bit more insecure of late ... PR will only go so far ... particularly with two law enforcement agencies looking closely at the available evidence.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 29, 2016, 05:43:58 PM
Charlotte Pennington...............is that the one who said ...maddie ...introduced herself as maddy ....when the mccs declared ...maddie insisted on being called madeleine...she hated maddy...so who was right there
Quote
Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo
Date/Time: 2007/05/06 22H00
Occupation: Public Relations
Place of Work: Millenium restaurant, OC.
She confirms that she is an employee of the OC, having signed a seven month contract in April this year. She worked in the resort last year, with the same functions and for the same period of time.
She says that her job is to receive guests at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant and check whether they have to pay for breakfast or whether this is included in their package. She works from 07.00 to 12.00 from Tuesdays to Saturdays. She says that she only attends to guests at breakfast time except on Wednesdays when there is Barbecue Night at the restaurant and when she welcomes guests for dinner, working from 18.00 to 22.00.
When asked, she says that due to her work she knows most of the guests given that most of them visit the Millenium as it is the only restaurant that serves breakfast.
When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.
She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.
She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her. She says that the only contact she had with guests was at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant, she did not have a view of the tables or the Buffet area.
She heard about the disappearance on Friday morning 4th May from a colleague called Alice.
The resort is very calm, the witness only knows of a few minor thefts and is very surprised at the news. She has no information that could help locate Madeleine.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on February 29, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
The great ... who saw Madeleine after Sunday conspiracy??? Well they do say that 'truth is stranger than fiction'.
C'mon ... c'mon ... don't keep it to yourself. How does he think ... they ... dunnit?
All very convenient for those actually responsible for stealing a little girl from her bed ... more PR than money could buy ... who says crime doesn't pay? However I hope they have been feeling a bit more insecure of late ... PR will only go so far ... particularly with two law enforcement agencies looking closely at the available evidence.
.............and 2 law enforcement agencies with nothing to show for all the 'effort' and money spent.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on February 29, 2016, 05:47:15 PM
That comment again reinforces the notion that you don't read other peoples comments. Try reading what I have typed about the videos.
As to SY and the Portuguese, can you tell me what they have achieved in their 'investigations' ?
Since sooner or later you will have to dig your head out of the sand on this.
Oh I read them ... some of yours I know off by heart you repeat yourself so often.
However things may have changed and your curiosity may have got the better of you since way back then. Mine still isn't at that stage of must knowing what was said ...as far as I can tell, it wasn't a lot and most of it flying in the face of common sense and if the title is anything to go by, decency.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 29, 2016, 05:50:23 PM
Oh I read them ... some of yours I know off by heart you repeat yourself so often.
However things may have changed and your curiosity may have got the better of you since way back then. Mine still isn't at that stage of must knowing what was said ...as far as I can tell, it wasn't a lot and most of it flying in the face of common sense and if the title is anything to go by, decency.
Well, as to repetition, you may change your words and use a thesaurus, but the content remains the same.
As to decency, well when it comes to ignoring and excusing the behaviour of a certain two parents, some have yet to learn and express that quality.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 29, 2016, 06:02:17 PM
My question is still the same. How many people would have had to have been complicit?
Answering instead of xtina once again.
Suppose, hypothetically, something very serious happened to a 3-year-old girl, let's call her 'Mary', late on the second day of a holiday. Suppose that in some way it was the fault, or responsibility, of her parents.
Suppose also that her parents came on holiday with three other couples and their infant children.
Suppose once more that no-one else on that holiday knew Mary before the holiday, with the exception of Mary's crèche nanny, who just happened to be Facebook Friends with the daughter of Mary's godfather.
All it would then need, to cover up her disappearance for say three or four days, would be the co-operation of the three other couples - and for the creche nanny to allow the parents to add Mary to the crèche records, and then, finally, to provide some confirmation by way of a statement verifying that Mary had really been there on those later days, when she actually wasn't.
No-one else would be needed.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on February 29, 2016, 09:32:37 PM
Suppose, hypothetically, something very serious happened to a 3-year-old girl, let's call her 'Mary', late on the second day of a holiday. Suppose that in some way it was the fault, or responsibility, of her parents.
Suppose also that her parents came on holiday with three other couples and their infant children.
Suppose once more that no-one else on that holiday knew Mary before the holiday, with the exception of Mary's crèche nanny, who just happened to be Facebook Friends with the daughter of Mary's godfather.
All it would then need, to cover up her disappearance for say three or four days, would be the co-operation of the three other couples - and for the creche nanny to allow the parents to add Mary to the crèche records, and then, finally, to provide some confirmation by way of a statement verifying that Mary had really been there on those later days, when she actually wasn't.
No-one else would be needed.
Did Richard Hall suggest that hypothesis in his video?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on February 29, 2016, 09:47:37 PM
Apart from all the parents etc at the creche who may have seen this Maddie imposter as well or a whole host of other possible witnesses and would have pointed that out when the pics were released a few weeks later. Sorry, but that is blonkers.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on February 29, 2016, 09:52:34 PM
oh sorry, i see you are simply suggesting falsifying the creche records. Too complicated and really unlikely imo. Does R.Hall really make a case for such a thing in this doc, because the last one was terrible after a not bad showing in the first doc.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on February 29, 2016, 10:48:19 PM
Apart from all the parents etc at the creche who may have seen this Maddie imposter as well or a whole host of other possible witnesses and would have pointed that out when the pics were released a few weeks later.
In my hypothesis, there was not a 'Mary impostor'.
I simply postulated an absent Mary with the crèche nanny allowing the parents to enter an absent child on the crèche register.
For that matter, what statements do we actually have from other parents of the 'Lobsters' group that week?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on February 29, 2016, 11:00:04 PM
oh sorry, i see you are simply suggesting falsifying the creche records. Too complicated and really unlikely imo. Does R.Hall really make a case for such a thing in this doc, because the last one was terrible after a not bad showing in the first doc.
The general gist is this:- Mr Hall has ascertained that the "photoshopped" last picture (the one beside the swimming pool) is honestly & truly not photoshopped. Its date-stamp. however, can be altered. Mr Hall has decided that the weather conditions displayed in the last photo are not consistent with the records he has from Faro(?) airport weatherstation so it is necessary to alter the date of the last photo. Mr Hall has decided that the photo must have been taken on Sun. 29th April due to those pictured not displaying any sign of a suntan. Mr Hall has decided that all entries on the creche records for Madeleine after Sunday were falsified by a nanny as Madeleine did not actually attend the creche. Mr Hall has decided that all those who reportedly saw Madeleine during the week either mistook her for Ella/didn't actually see her at all/were unreliable witnesses. (There were a few witnesses who were genuinely mistaken imo) Mr Hall has decided that no independent witness whose statement is in the PJ files actually saw Madeleine after the Sunday so that is probably when she died. Quite why the parents & their friends didn't wait until the following Saturday to report Madeleine missing & not mess up the last full day of their holiday is not touched upon.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on February 29, 2016, 11:23:21 PM
In my hypothesis, there was not a 'Mary impostor'.
I simply postulated an absent Mary with the crèche nanny allowing the parents to enter an absent child on the crèche register.
For that matter, what statements do we actually have from other parents of the 'Lobsters' group that week?
I don't know what statements we have, but we don't have the complete files, so it could be unknown whether the creche parents were interviewed. Anyway, someone would have alerted the police by now if that was not Madeleine at the creche and the audaciousness of such a plan is just not credible. Unless of course you want to be caught. Interesting postulation, but one I think can be safely ruled out. Is this possible in your opinion?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on February 29, 2016, 11:25:08 PM
The general gist is this:- Mr Hall has ascertained that the "photoshopped" last picture (the one beside the swimming pool) is honestly & truly not photoshopped. Its date-stamp. however, can be altered. Mr Hall has decided that the weather conditions displayed in the last photo are not consistent with the records he has from Faro(?) airport weatherstation so it is necessary to alter the date of the last photo. Mr Hall has decided that the photo must have been taken on Sun. 29th April due to those pictured not displaying any sign of a suntan. Mr Hall has decided that all entries on the creche records for Madeleine after Sunday were falsified by a nanny as Madeleine did not actually attend the creche. Mr Hall has decided that all those who reportedly saw Madeleine during the week either mistook her for Ella/didn't actually see her at all/were unreliable witnesses. (There were a few witnesses who were genuinely mistaken imo) Mr Hall has decided that no independent witness whose statement is in the PJ files actually saw Madeleine after the Sunday so that is probably when she died. Quite why the parents & their friends didn't wait until the following Saturday to report Madeleine missing & not mess up the last full day of their holiday is not touched upon.
Haha, not a surprise that he took this angle. One of the more outlandish theories regarding photo manipulation etc that i've heard in other forms before. I just wonder whether he actually believes this stuff he says?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 01, 2016, 12:06:53 AM
The general gist is this:- Mr Hall has ascertained that the "photoshopped" last picture (the one beside the swimming pool) is honestly & truly not photoshopped. Its date-stamp. however, can be altered. Mr Hall has decided that the weather conditions displayed in the last photo are not consistent with the records he has from Faro(?) airport weatherstation so it is necessary to alter the date of the last photo. Mr Hall has decided that the photo must have been taken on Sun. 29th April due to those pictured not displaying any sign of a suntan. Mr Hall has decided that all entries on the creche records for Madeleine after Sunday were falsified by a nanny as Madeleine did not actually attend the creche. Mr Hall has decided that all those who reportedly saw Madeleine during the week either mistook her for Ella/didn't actually see her at all/were unreliable witnesses. (There were a few witnesses who were genuinely mistaken imo) Mr Hall has decided that no independent witness whose statement is in the PJ files actually saw Madeleine after the Sunday so that is probably when she died. Quite why the parents & their friends didn't wait until the following Saturday to report Madeleine missing & not mess up the last full day of their holiday is not touched upon.
His premise is wrong.
Carana has carried out research on the weather and posted this and a few subsequent posts today, which shows that he is wrong. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6981.msg311821#msg311821
He has formulated a theory using flawed data. What is it they say ... 'rubbish in - rubbish out' ... I think that may be one classic example.
Thanks for taking the trouble to wade through it and informing us of these anomalies, Misty.
That gives two points to mull over ... his allegation re Mrs Fenn and his mistake about the weather, at least he has dropped the various photo-shopping extravaganzas put about in relation to this photograph ... so that must be one point in his favour.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 01, 2016, 12:27:24 AM
Carana has carried out research on the weather and posted this and a few subsequent posts today, which shows that he is wrong. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6981.msg311821#msg311821
He has formulated a theory using flawed data. What is it they say ... 'rubbish in - rubbish out' ... I think that may be one classic example.
Thanks for taking the trouble to wade through it and informing us of these anomalies, Misty.
That gives two points to mull over ... his allegation re Mrs Fenn and his mistake about the weather, at least he has dropped the various photo-shopping extravaganzas put about in relation to this photograph ... so that must be one point in his favour.
I should also add that Hall claims the "last photograph" was not on the DVDs prepared in the UK from GM's camera. It wasn't released until 24/5, after GM had been back to the UK & possibly collaborated to alter the meta-data on it with his photography expert brother-in-law Rickman. (see DVD3). Mrs Fenn - I will pm you with something possibly of interest shortly.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 12:36:26 AM
Oh dear the Murat angle is on-going. The Smiths covering for their great friend nevermind everyone else in fantasy luzland @)(++(* Amaral was correct, Madeleine was alive at 5:30 on 3 May 2007. The sailing instructors on Thursday morning would have confirmed it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 01, 2016, 12:42:44 AM
Oh dear the Murat angle is on-going. The Smiths covering for their great friend nevermind everyone else in fantasy luzland @)(++(* Amaral was correct, Madeleine was alive at 5:30 on 3 May 2007. The sailing instructors on Thursday morning would have confirmed it.
The sailing instructors would not have known who Madeleine was. Mr Hall said only 6 children went sailing, not 7, according to the files. Sorry, P/F - does this mess up your own theory? Must admit, Hall has set me thinking but everyone knows I am away with the fairies too.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 12:50:53 AM
The sailing instructors would not have known who Madeleine was. Mr Hall said only 6 children went sailing, not 7, according to the files. Sorry, P/F - does this mess up your own theory? Must admit, Hall has set me thinking but everyone knows I am away with the fairies too.
My theory can't be disproved.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 01, 2016, 01:09:53 AM
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 07:36:04 AM
So far then, we have three couples of the McCann's plus Dianne all agreeing to cover up a death of a child. We have the nannies, parents of the children going to the crèche, the cleaner, staff who served Madeleine her tea, the mother whose child played football with Madeleine, the man who give the police a photo of his children with Madeleine in the background etc. etc. ALL lying to cover up the death of 'Mary'.
Isn't it strange that all these people who covered up the death of a child, all happened to be holidaying at the OC at the same time as the McCann's.
Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 01, 2016, 08:36:46 AM
So far then, we have three couples of the McCann's plus Dianne all agreeing to cover up a death of a child. We have the nannies, parents of the children going to the crèche, the cleaner, staff who served Madeleine her tea, the mother whose child played football with Madeleine, the man who give the police a photo of his children with Madeleine in the background etc. etc. ALL lying to cover up the death of 'Mary'.
Isn't it strange that all these people who covered up the death of a child, all happened to be holidaying at the OC at the same time as the McCann's.
Ridiculous.
And who all coincidentally just happened to be insane/simple-minded enough to happily agree to becoming accessories to a heinous crime - and who were all totally unconcerned about the dire consequences to themselves and their own family's lives that agreeing to pervert the course of justice could result in.
What a stroke of luck that was for the McCanns - to have so many mentally challenged people available to them in the same place and at the same time - just when they needed them.
What utter tosh.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 08:45:24 AM
And who all coincidentally just happened to be insane/simple-minded enough to happily agree to becoming accessories to a heinous crime - and who were all totally unconcerned about the dire consequences to themselves and their own family's lives that agreeing to pervert the course of justice could result in.
What a stroke of luck that was for the McCanns - to have so many mentally challenged people available to them in the same place and at the same time - just when they needed them.
What utter tosh.
It is really unbelievable that people would lap this rubbish up.
Can you imagine the McCann's going to see the Nanny and saying 'oh, our child died, we need to cover her death up, can we pretend we have a child going to the crèche?.
They say that others could have been mistaken about seeing Madeleine as there were other blonde children, well Madeleine was the one with the twin brother and sister, a fact that would stand out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 01, 2016, 08:50:14 AM
Amaral was correct, Madeleine was alive at 5:30 on 3 May 2007. The sailing instructors on Thursday morning would have confirmed it.
This is a very novel approach to analysing the evidence - namely speculating on what the sailing instructors 'would have' said. I had understood that speculation was generally frowned upon in this forum.
Far better, surely, to stick to the actual evidence, which comes primarily from a report by Inspector Pinho, who actually did a reconstruction of the alleged events of the morning of Thursday 3 May, taking the two sailing instructors, Alice Standley and Chris Unworth, with him.
The two instructors were specifically asked if anyone else was with them on the sailing trips and they confirmed that it was just the two of them and the children from the creche. They made no mention of Catriona Baker, the Lobsters crèche nanny, being there, allegedly accompanying the children to the beach.
Moreover, they referred to two boats each taking three children; that makes six children in all going sailing on Thursday morning.
But seven were signed into the crèche that day - including Madeleine.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2016, 08:58:04 AM
And who all coincidentally just happened to be insane/simple-minded enough to happily agree to becoming accessories to a heinous crime - and who were all totally unconcerned about the dire consequences to themselves and their own family's lives that agreeing to pervert the course of justice could result in.
What a stroke of luck that was for the McCanns - to have so many mentally challenged people available to them in the same place and at the same time - just when they needed them.
What utter tosh.
Not only mentally challenged but worthy of Oscars for managing to maintain the facade of a normal happy holiday for several days, while knowing that a child who had been part of their holiday group was dead.
Utter rubbish.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 01, 2016, 09:09:11 AM
Madeleine was the one with the twin brother and sister, a fact that would stand out like a sore thumb.
Yet how is it that a staff member can write such utter rubbish as this:
Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo
Date/Time: 10pm, Sunday 6th May, 2007
When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.
She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.
She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him...
UNQUOTE
The evidence is absolutely clear; the McCanns themselves confirm that from Monday morning onwards they had both breakfast and lunch in their own apartment. Cecilia do Carmo's statement is utter balderdash from start to finish.
And that is the problem with a whole host of statements by independent people claiming to have seen Madeleine that week.
The only one that stands up to detailed scrutiny is the sighting of Madeleine, the twins, Gerry McCann and Kate McCann taking the elements of a picnic lunch up towards the Paynes' holiday apartment.
And that was on the Sunday lunchtime.
What other statements from independent witnesses that week give a clear recollection of seeing Madeleine, excluding for the moment Catriona Baker?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 01, 2016, 09:10:02 AM
May I remind Posters that we are all speculating, some more so than others.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 01, 2016, 09:15:39 AM
Not only mentally challenged but worthy of Oscars for managing to maintain the facade of a normal happy holiday for several days, while knowing that a child who had been part of their holiday group was dead.
Utter rubbish.
Can you just imagine the conversation between Gerry and members of staff.
GM - Our little girl has just died.
Staff: Oh how inconvenient for you I hope it hasn't spoiled your holiday - is there anything we can do to help?
GM : Yes - we would like you to help us to cover up her death by lying to the police for us.
Staff:- But of course - no probs. We aim to please. In the meantime would you like a spade? ----------------
Dear oh dear oh dear..
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 09:16:26 AM
So far then, we have three couples of the McCann's plus Dianne all agreeing to cover up a death of a child. We have the nannies, parents of the children going to the crèche, the cleaner, staff who served Madeleine her tea, the mother whose child played football with Madeleine, the man who give the police a photo of his children with Madeleine in the background etc. etc. ALL lying to cover up the death of 'Mary'.
Isn't it strange that all these people who covered up the death of a child, all happened to be holidaying at the OC at the same time as the McCann's.
Ridiculous.
Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo.....
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CECILIA-DFC.htm
statement proved wrong...so it could have been elle.... maddie was mistaken for.....
Boyde family ......did they ever make a statement to police ...or was it just to a cheap magazine
were they staying at the Ocean Club or did they have a just visitor pass for the pool
who was the man who gave a photo to the police with maddie in the background ....where is the photo
Elisa Dias Romao - Claimed seeing Madeleine at times she was not there.(according to creche records)
Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira Cleaner - Saw them twice leaving Millenium about 9.30 - 10am - They didn't go to Millenium for breakfast
Catriona Baker - Non credible with her statement riddled with discrepancies as well as her trip to visit the McCanns in Rothley does not help with credibility.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no formal statements from them-
Bridget O'Donnell - Jez Wilkins partner - Claimed 'all pretty in pink' for the mini tennis with the Sharks on Thursday...Madeleine's group played on Tuesday, so she was mistaken that Madeleine may have been there.
Miguel Matias - Owner of Paraiso - Was convinced he saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy and on his shoulders but we KNOW Madeleine was not there...he mistakenly thought another child was Madeleine.
can anyone find anything to prove maddie was seen after the sunday.........or do they ...THINK they saw maddie
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 09:17:34 AM
Yet how is it that a staff member can write such utter rubbish as this:
Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo
Date/Time: 10pm, Sunday 6th May, 2007
When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.
She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.
She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him...
UNQUOTE
The evidence is absolutely clear; the McCanns themselves confirm that from Monday morning onwards they had both breakfast and lunch in their own apartment. Cecilia do Carmo's statement is utter balderdash from start to finish.
And that is the problem with a whole host of statements by independent people claiming to have seen Madeleine that week.
The only one that stands up to detailed scrutiny is the sighting of Madeleine, the twins, Gerry McCann and Kate McCann taking the elements of a picnic lunch up towards the Paynes' holiday apartment.
And that was on the Sunday lunchtime.
What other statements from independent witnesses that week give a clear recollection of seeing Madeleine, excluding for the moment Catriona Baker?
That is one person blonk, the Mrs. Boyde said her son played football with Madeleine.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2016, 09:28:07 AM
Can you just imagine the conversation between Gerry and members of staff.
GM - Our little girl has just died.
Staff: Oh how inconvenient for you I hope it hasn't spoiled your holiday - is there anything we can do to help?
GM : Yes - we would like you to help us to cover up her death by lying to the police for us.
Staff:- But of course - no probs. We aim to please. In the meantime would you like a spade? ----------------
Dear oh dear oh dear..
It's nonsense. How would the group of friends be approached to help. Each couple told separately about the tragic event and asked to join in perverting the course of justice, or asked to meet somewhere to be told in one large group and asked to help.
Was a plan formed for the next few days with all details discussed?
Sorry Eleanor if I am speculating? Delete if necessary.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 09:38:13 AM
It's nonsense. How would the group of friends be approached to help. Each couple told separately about the tragic event and asked to join in perverting the course of justice, or asked to meet somewhere to be told in one large group and asked to help.
Was a plan formed for the next few days with all details discussed?
Sorry Eleanor if I am speculating? Delete if necessary.
Speculating is fine by me, within reason. There isn't anything else we can do.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 09:45:22 AM
Does k mcc mention "the nice lady by the pool" in her book
not saying these people covered anything up in my previous post ....only they could have thought they saw maddie but didn't
That's right. Nobody knew what Madeleine looked like, and in my opinion, still don't.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 01, 2016, 09:45:47 AM
So are we supposed to believe that none of the other children at the Kiddies club ever played with or spoke to Madeleine - or that no other families were EVER present at the swimming pool, or the play area, or the tennis courts or having tea at the Tapas, or at the beach, at the same time the McCann family were there - and that every time they were walking around PdL - not another soul was about? What nonsense.
Families which include twins are more noticeable than other families and attract more attention. . I have no doubt there are loads of holidaymakers/locals/children who would have recognised Madeleine as a little girl they saw in PdL from pictures of her on TV and in the press and who could confirm that - if necessary.
The fact is - that wasn't necessary - as the PJ had more than enough evidence from other folk that Madeleine was around until she disappeared on 3rd May.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 09:55:17 AM
statement proved wrong...so it could have been elle.... maddie was mistaken for.....
Boyde family ......did they ever make a statement to police ...or was it just to a cheap magazine
were they staying at the Ocean Club or did they have a just visitor pass for the pool
who was the man who gave a photo to the police with maddie in the background ....where is the photo
Elisa Dias Romao - Claimed seeing Madeleine at times she was not there.(according to creche records)
Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira Cleaner - Saw them twice leaving Millenium about 9.30 - 10am - They didn't go to Millenium for breakfast
Catriona Baker - Non credible with her statement riddled with discrepancies as well as her trip to visit the McCanns in Rothley does not help with credibility.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no formal statements from them-
Bridget O'Donnell - Jez Wilkins partner - Claimed 'all pretty in pink' for the mini tennis with the Sharks on Thursday...Madeleine's group played on Tuesday, so she was mistaken that Madeleine may have been there.
Miguel Matias - Owner of Paraiso - Was convinced he saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy and on his shoulders but we KNOW Madeleine was not there...he mistakenly thought another child was Madeleine.
can anyone find anything to prove maddie was seen after the sunday.........or do they ...THINK they saw maddie
Why would Kate McCann mention everyone she met on holiday in her book?
Why would Mrs. Boyd lie? her son was playing with Madeleine and she spoke to Kate, I think she would remember that somehow after seeing posters of Madeleine everywhere.
Why would all the friends and Dianne Webster lie to the police?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 09:57:45 AM
Maria Manuela Antonia Jose, Tapas cook for children's high tea:
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Ella had gone to the Paraiso for tea, which leaves Madeleine as the only girl of a similar age. The other two from Lobsters were boys.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 10:00:28 AM
Why would Kate McCann mention everyone she met on holiday in her book?
Why would Mrs. Boyd lie? her son was playing with Madeleine and she spoke to Kate, I think she would remember that somehow after seeing posters of Madeleine everywhere.
Why would all the friends and Dianne Webster lie to the police?
I don't think they did lie as such, they just made their testimony so vague, woolly and contradictory that police couldn't make sense of it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 10:10:39 AM
This is a very novel approach to analysing the evidence - namely speculating on what the sailing instructors 'would have' said. I had understood that speculation was generally frowned upon in this forum.
Far better, surely, to stick to the actual evidence, which comes primarily from a report by Inspector Pinho, who actually did a reconstruction of the alleged events of the morning of Thursday 3 May, taking the two sailing instructors, Alice Standley and Chris Unworth, with him.
The two instructors were specifically asked if anyone else was with them on the sailing trips and they confirmed that it was just the two of them and the children from the creche. They made no mention of Catriona Baker, the Lobsters crèche nanny, being there, allegedly accompanying the children to the beach.
Moreover, they referred to two boats each taking three children; that makes six children in all going sailing on Thursday morning.
But seven were signed into the crèche that day - including Madeleine.
The statements weren't released so you too are merely speculating about them not knowing Madeleine. Your theory has zero credibility. This is a simple game of hide and seek. Smithman hid it and SY need to find it.
Madeleine was too scared to sail for the first time in her life and her mother was talking about paedos instead at the pool.
"There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 01, 2016, 10:17:25 AM
This is a very novel approach to analysing the evidence - namely speculating on what the sailing instructors 'would have' said. I had understood that speculation was generally frowned upon in this forum.
Far better, surely, to stick to the actual evidence, which comes primarily from a report by Inspector Pinho, who actually did a reconstruction of the alleged events of the morning of Thursday 3 May, taking the two sailing instructors, Alice Standley and Chris Unworth, with him.
The two instructors were specifically asked if anyone else was with them on the sailing trips and they confirmed that it was just the two of them and the children from the creche. They made no mention of Catriona Baker, the Lobsters crèche nanny, being there, allegedly accompanying the children to the beach.
Moreover, they referred to two boats each taking three children; that makes six children in all going sailing on Thursday morning.
But seven were signed into the crèche that day - including Madeleine.
And yours is a very old discredited approach ..... Say what you want and challenge others to prove you wrong The celestial teapot .... Or crackpot as I prefer
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 10:19:09 AM
Q: Have you considered the possibility that Madeleine died on the previous night or even when Mrs. Fenn heard the crying?
GA: Naturally - the investigation begins with establishing if the person who disappeared, does actually exist and then, who was the last person to see her - the investigation shows clearly that she was last seen around 17.30.
Q: Have you any doubt as to the validity of Madeleine attending the creche on 3/5?
GA: No doubt whatsoever.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2016, 10:19:57 AM
statement proved wrong...so it could have been elle.... maddie was mistaken for.....
Boyde family ......did they ever make a statement to police ...or was it just to a cheap magazine
were they staying at the Ocean Club or did they have a just visitor pass for the pool
who was the man who gave a photo to the police with maddie in the background ....where is the photo
Elisa Dias Romao - Claimed seeing Madeleine at times she was not there.(according to creche records)
Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira Cleaner - Saw them twice leaving Millenium about 9.30 - 10am - They didn't go to Millenium for breakfast
Catriona Baker - Non credible with her statement riddled with discrepancies as well as her trip to visit the McCanns in Rothley does not help with credibility.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no formal statements from them-
Bridget O'Donnell - Jez Wilkins partner - Claimed 'all pretty in pink' for the mini tennis with the Sharks on Thursday...Madeleine's group played on Tuesday, so she was mistaken that Madeleine may have been there.
Miguel Matias - Owner of Paraiso - Was convinced he saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy and on his shoulders but we KNOW Madeleine was not there...he mistakenly thought another child was Madeleine.
can anyone find anything to prove maddie was seen after the sunday.........or do they ...THINK they saw maddie
Forgot to say Philip Edmonds was the man who give police a photograph of his children with Madeleine in the background, as to where is it, it's with the Police, why would they show a photograph belonging to someone who is not belonging to the McCann family to the public? I would want my family photo kept confidential too.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 01, 2016, 10:42:20 AM
Q: Have you considered the possibility that Madeleine died on the previous night or even when Mrs. Fenn heard the crying?
GA: Naturally - the investigation begins with establishing if the person who disappeared, does actually exist and then, who was the last person to see her - the investigation shows clearly that she was last seen around 17.30.
Q: Have you any doubt as to the validity of Madeleine attending the creche on 3/5? GA: No doubt whatsoever.
An assertion made by Goncalo Amaral based on his faith that Catriona Baker was telling him the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
An assertion which looks less and less likely the more you study all of Cat Baker's statements in depth
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2016, 10:43:50 AM
Forgot to say Philip Edmonds was the man who give police a photograph of his children with Madeleine in the background, as to where is it, it's with the Police, why would they show a photograph belonging to someone who is not belonging to the McCann family to the public? I would want my family photo kept confidential too.
If it had been shown to the public - it would have been dismissed as photoshopped by some sceptics - and Mr Edmonds would have been accused of being yet another person who was party to this massive conspiracy.
While it remains undisclosed sceptics can convince themselves that it doesn't exist and Mr Edmonds is lying about it - because he is party to this massive conspiracy.
So damned if he does and damned if he doesn't imo.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 01, 2016, 10:46:14 AM
Forgot to say Philip Edmonds was the man who gave [sp.] police a photograph of his children with Madeleine in the background, as to where is it, it's with the Police...
Let's get some accuracy here.
Your statement above should read:
Philip Edmonds was the man who says he gave police a photograph of his children with Madeleine in the background.
Have the police confirmed receipt of this alleged photograph?
NO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 10:50:26 AM
Philip Edmonds was the man who says he gave police a photograph of his children with Madeleine in the background.
Have the police confirmed receipt of this alleged photograph?
NO
I see this conspiracy is getting even larger. Why would they confirm to me or you? Meanwhile, this would just be another member of this growing conspiracy? Also, this man would lie by saying he had provided this photo knowing the police know he did not?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 10:54:44 AM
An assertion made by Goncalo Amaral based on his faith that Catriona Baker was telling him the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
An assertion which looks less and less likely the more you study all of Cat Baker's statements in depth
What nonsense. They investigate a lot more than you know. Your theory is madness. You can't make a girl disappear all week when she was seen by many nannies.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 01, 2016, 11:01:13 AM
If it had been shown to the public - it would have been dismissed as photoshopped by some sceptics - and Mr Edmonds would have been accused of being yet another person who was party to this massive conspiracy.
While it remains undisclosed sceptics can convince themselves that it doesn't exist and Mr Edmonds is lying about it - because he is party to this massive conspiracy.
So damned if he does and damned if he doesn't imo.
This all beings us back to the question of the paucity of photographs of Madeleine that week.
Leaving aside for a moment the two very controversial photos - the 'Last Photo' and the 'Tennis Balls' photo, which miraculously seems to have been taken on two different days by two different people - what are we left with? - just three, all obviously taken on the late Saturday afternoon just after they arrived in Praia da Luz.
Another matter to put into the mix regarding the photographs is that Gerry and Kate McCann didn't allow the PJ to look at their original photographs.
No, they preferred the route of summoning up their cousin Michael Wright from Skipton and no less a person than the Head of Risk for one of the world's leading - and most controversial and notorious - PR agencies, Alex Woolfall of Bell Pottinger.
To do what?
To view, select, delete, amend, omit and crop all their photographs on their SD card(s), and put what was left of them on to two CDs, handing them into the PJ on Wednesday 9 May. The result was the useless 'grey-scale' images we see in the PJ files.
And why exactly was the Head of Risk for Bell Pottinger out in Praia da Luz on Friday 4 May anyway? Madeleine could have been found alive and well as he was flying out from Gatwick to Faro.
Undoubtedly there is a very deep mystery about the photographs taken on that holiday
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 11:02:11 AM
This all beings us back to the question of the paucity of photographs of Madeleine that week.
Leaving aside for a moment the two very controversial photos - the 'Last Photo' and the 'Tennis Balls' photo, which miraculously seems to have been taken on two different days by two different people - what are we left with? - just three, all obviously taken on the late Saturday afternoon just after they arrived in Praia da Luz.
Another matter to put into the mix regarding the photographs is that Gerry and Kate McCann didn't allow the PJ to look at their original photographs.
No, they preferred the route of summoning up their cousin Michael Wright from Skipton and no less a person than the Head of Risk for one of the world's leading - and most controversial and notorious - PR agencies, Alex Woolfall of Bell Pottinger.
To do what?
To view, select, delete, amend, omit and crop all their photographs on their SD card(s), and put what was left of them on to two CDs, handing them into the PJ on Wednesday 9 May. The result was the useless 'grey-scale' images we see in the PJ files.
And why exactly was the Head of Risk for Bell Pottinger out in Praia da Luz on Friday 4 May anyway? Madeleine could have been found alive and well as he was flying out from Gatwick to Faro.
Undoubtedly there is a very deep mystery about the photographs taken on that holiday
And how many of Kate?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2016, 11:04:04 AM
What nonsense. They investigate a lot more than you know. Your theory is madness. You can't make a girl disappear all week when she was seen by many nannies.
We have a statement from a cleaner who saw all members of the McCann family on the Sunday lunchtime. It is a clear, detailed statement.
Leaving aside the testimony of Catriona Baker, you refer to Madeleine 'being seen by many nannies'.
Could you please give a link to a nanny statement that week (apart from Cat Baker) which in your view gives us the clearest possible evidence of Madeleine being alive after Sunday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 11:07:29 AM
I'm sure I read somewhere that Kate was more interested in photography than was Gerry, so it is only to be expected that there might be few pictures of her. However, it is passing strange that there appear to be no photo's of her husband displaying his prowess on the tennis court.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 11:09:38 AM
We have a statement from a cleaner who saw all members of the McCann family on the Sunday lunchtime. It is a clear, detailed statement.
Leaving aside the testimony of Catriona Baker, you refer to Madeleine 'being seen by many nannies'.
Could you please give a link to a nanny statement that week (apart from Cat Baker) which in your view gives us the clearest possible evidence of Madeleine being alive after Sunday.
They are easy to find - introducing herself as Maddie. Here's the tennis instructor confirming Madeleine alive on Tuesday.
"Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent."
That's the day the tennis ball photo was taken. It's not fake. Pamela Fenn heard her crying for daddy that night. Fenn was in on nothing! Barmy conspiracy theories must be whooshed.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Kate was more interested in photography than Gerry was, so it is only to be expected that there might be few pictures of her. However, it is passing strange that there appear to be no photo's of her husband displaying his prowess on the tennis court.
Perhaps there are photos that the family have not published. I can't see how one of Gerry playing tennis would be helpful to the investigation.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 01, 2016, 11:13:55 AM
I'm sure I read somewhere that Kate was more interested in photography than was Gerry, so it is only to be expected that there might be few pictures of her. However, it is passing strange that there appear to be no photo's of her husband displaying his prowess on the tennis court.
Why would we want to see those?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 11:14:03 AM
Why would Kate McCann mention everyone she met on holiday in her book?
Why would Mrs. Boyd lie? her son was playing with Madeleine and she spoke to Kate, I think she would remember that somehow after seeing posters of Madeleine everywhere.
Why would all the friends and Dianne Webster lie to the police?
well it was suppose to be such a memorable afternoon
i am not saying she lied ...she could have thought it was maddie .....after all its just a story in a magazine ...not sure if she received payment for it .......not classed as credable ...though is it
how many times have you seen a child who looks like maddie ...even my family members could resemble maddie .,.,.as in supermarkets child groups ...no disrespect to maddie ...but there was nothing striking that you would remember [like jet black/ginger//mass of curls hair dark skinned] ..standing out in a crowd...just a cute pretty little girl ...like most three year olds.
Dr Russell O'Brien.went to the reception to sort out the meals it was said with maddie ....it wasn't ..it was his daughter Elle
it is possible ....all these people thought it was maddie they saw .....after all why at the time should they have defiantly known who maddie was
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 11:15:12 AM
I'm sure I read somewhere that Kate was more interested in photography than was Gerry, so it is only to be expected that there might be few pictures of her. However, it is passing strange that there appear to be no photo's of her husband displaying his prowess on the tennis court.
Why would any such photos be relevant?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 11:20:54 AM
You have no evidence. Claiming photos are fake without any evidence. Tennis instructor confirmed Madeleine was present on Tuesday when this photo was taken and the documentary claims it fake. You really need to do proper research before looking like the biggest clown in the McCann circus.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Kate was more interested in photography than was Gerry, so it is only to be expected that there might be few pictures of her. However, it is passing strange that there appear to be no photo's of her husband displaying his prowess on the tennis court.
the camera also took pride of place on the table in the mccs apartment......strange how it was not used ...
k mcc ran back for it to take the tennis photo..not sure if maddie had to stand there holding ..them balls
the mccs were not credably seen any where after the sunday .....even eating alone when the others were having picnics at Payne's apartment ...yet Payne was there friend
maddie left in the creche when the rest were on the beach ....even Elle was took out ...maddies best friend ...yet that was the best day of maddies life according to k mcc
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 11:25:53 AM
the camera also took pride of place on the table in the mccs apartment......strange how it was not used ...
k mcc ran back for it to take the tennis photo..not sure if maddie had to stand there holding ..them balls
the mccs were not credably seen any where after the sunday .....even eating alone when the others were having picnics at Payne's apartment ...yet Payne was there friend
maddie left in the creche when the rest were on the beach ....even Elle was took out ...maddies best friend ...yet that was the best day of maddies life according to k mcc
There is a contradiction about who took the photo. Rachel said it was Jane and her day was way out.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 11:26:43 AM
the camera also took pride of place on the table in the mccs apartment......strange how it was not used ...
k mcc ran back for it to take the tennis photo..not sure if maddie had to stand there holding ..them balls
the mccs were not credably seen any where after the sunday .....even eating alone when the others were having picnics at Payne's apartment ...yet Payne was there friend
maddie left in the creche when the rest were on the beach ....even Elle was took out ...maddies best friend ...yet that was the best day of maddies life according to k mcc
If that was true, then the rest of her life must have been pretty poor.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 11:27:23 AM
We have a statement from a cleaner who saw all members of the McCann family on the Sunday lunchtime. It is a clear, detailed statement.
Leaving aside the testimony of Catriona Baker, you refer to Madeleine 'being seen by many nannies'.
Could you please give a link to a nanny statement that week (apart from Cat Baker) which in your view gives us the clearest possible evidence of Madeleine being alive after Sunday.
Did you see my (repeated) question about the Tapas cook who saw her at high tea on 3 May? She couldn't have mistaken her for Ella as Ella had gone to the Paraiso, and the only two other children of that age group were boys.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 11:28:01 AM
They are easy to find - introducing herself as Maddie. Here's the tennis instructor confirming Madeleine alive on Tuesday.
"Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent."
Does she say she instructed the children to go to another court to collect up all the tennis balls used by the adults? - No.
How likely is it that adults could have been hitting adult tennis balls at speeds of 100 mph or more on the tennis court right next to where the children were playing mini-tennis?
Is there any personal recollection of how Madeleine did in the mini-tennis session? - No.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 11:40:30 AM
I don't like dictators who can't stand alternative views that don't abide with barmy theories .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2016, 11:48:49 AM
Does she say she instructed the children to go to another court to collect up all the tennis balls used by the adults? - No.
How likely is it that adults could have been hitting adult tennis balls at speeds of 100 mph or more on the tennis court right next to where the children were playing mini-tennis?
Is there any personal recollection of how Madeleine did in the mini-tennis session? - No.
what defence do you have to this by hall....
The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 11:57:10 AM
Are you suggesting that the Tapas cook wasn't telling the truth either? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6981.msg312289#msg312289
Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was mistaken and probably saw Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas
after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week
Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was maddie
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 01, 2016, 12:05:27 PM
Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was mistaken and probably saw Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas
after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week
Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was maddie
Madeleine had high tea at the Tapas eating area every night. They came at 4:45 to 5:30. The parents would meet them so there is nothing strange about Tapas staff seeing her at around that time.
"With regard to the facts being investigated, she says that in brief moments and in a formal manner (just saying "hello" and "goodbye") she had contact with Madeleine, explaining that she did not belong to her group, these contacts took place when the children were eating, as all the children ate together in the Tapas at the same time."
Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was mistaken and probably saw Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas
after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week
Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was maddie
Lilly? How could the cook have mistaken Lilly for Madeleine? Did you mean Ella?
Which other girl could she have mistaken her for? Ella went to the Paraiso with the T7.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on March 01, 2016, 12:11:44 PM
Does she say she instructed the children to go to another court to collect up all the tennis balls used by the adults? - No.
How likely is it that adults could have been hitting adult tennis balls at speeds of 100 mph or more on the tennis court right next to where the children were playing mini-tennis?
Is there any personal recollection of how Madeleine did in the mini-tennis session? - No.
Sort of Sam Peckinpah's 'Salad Days'.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on March 01, 2016, 12:12:44 PM
Maddie was abducted by a UFO that night. Now prove me wrong. God exists. Now prove me wrong. Faries exist. Now prove me wrong. Middle Earth exists somewhere up in the night sky. Now prove me wrong is how this argument goes...
yadayadayada. You need to provide proof Sir Blonk. You haven't - where is your proof? This is lead hat with layer of plutonium time(just in case you want blow up your own head!).
Some theories do not need to be exhaustively researched, because logic and probability can be used to narrow the search. You bring up some interesting points like for instance the photos that the McCanns provided on a DVD, but really this is the job the police to go and get this stuff if they are suspects or believe the info could be useful - it is not the McCanns job. Like for instance in David Payne's rog when he asks for the mobile phones and ensures he will get them. How do you make the jump from cherry picked photos provided to PJ at the start of the investigation when they were not suspects I might add to a week long alibi for Madeliene?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 01, 2016, 12:17:01 PM
It's the same old argument. If people don't deny it then it must be true.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 12:24:53 PM
This all beings us back to the question of the paucity of photographs of Madeleine that week.
Leaving aside for a moment the two very controversial photos - the 'Last Photo' and the 'Tennis Balls' photo, which miraculously seems to have been taken on two different days by two different people - what are we left with? - just three, all obviously taken on the late Saturday afternoon just after they arrived in Praia da Luz.
Another matter to put into the mix regarding the photographs is that Gerry and Kate McCann didn't allow the PJ to look at their original photographs.
No, they preferred the route of summoning up their cousin Michael Wright from Skipton and no less a person than the Head of Risk for one of the world's leading - and most controversial and notorious - PR agencies, Alex Woolfall of Bell Pottinger.
To do what?
To view, select, delete, amend, omit and crop all their photographs on their SD card(s), and put what was left of them on to two CDs, handing them into the PJ on Wednesday 9 May. The result was the useless 'grey-scale' images we see in the PJ files.
And why exactly was the Head of Risk for Bell Pottinger out in Praia da Luz on Friday 4 May anyway? Madeleine could have been found alive and well as he was flying out from Gatwick to Faro.
Undoubtedly there is a very deep mystery about the photographs taken on that holiday
There are so many allegations in this post that it's hard to know where to start.
Could you please substantiate them?
- What's controversial about the "last photo"? Do you have a problem that the Sagres weather charts indicating a pleasant sunny day are more likely to represent the local weather than Faro? ETA: Where exactly did that weather chart come from? Not clear.
- The "tennis" photo: various people would have been taking photos. Kate said she took that one: please provide evidence that she didn't. The tennis instructor appears clear which day it was.
- The "paucity" of photos: how do you know how many photos were taken? If some were not useful (e.g., Madeleine seen from behind playing with the twins, or any that may have been out of focus, there would be no reason to publicise those).
- Which are the 3 other photos in question?
- Re Alex Woolfall of Bell Pottinger coming out to PdL: who is the "they" that you refer to?
I'll leave this point for a separate post: - "To view, select, delete, amend, omit and crop all their photographs on their SD card(s), and put what was left of them on to two CDs, handing them into the PJ on Wednesday 9 May. The result was the useless 'grey-scale' images we see in the PJ files."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 12:50:57 PM
Lilly? How could the cook have mistaken Lilly for Madeleine? Did you mean Ella?
Which other girl could she have mistaken her for? Ella went to the Paraiso with the T7.
see how easy it is to confuse children.......lilly was David Payne's daughter
Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. The cook at the tapas was one of the 'credible' witnesses that 'saw' Madeleine at 16.30 Thursday May 3.
regarding the statement of Maria Manuela Antonia José Tapas Cook who has been considered as a reliable witness seeing Madeleine at 16.30 on May 3rd.
Reading her statement she refers to recognising Madeleine from the photo (of younger maddie)...on the television
the one the mccs first gave to police ...18 month old pic ...making maddie 18 months younger Image.....for some reason unable to copy pic ...but it is on the link
Does she say she instructed the children to go to another court to collect up all the tennis balls used by the adults? - No.
How likely is it that adults could have been hitting adult tennis balls at speeds of 100 mph or more on the tennis court right next to where the children were playing mini-tennis?
Is there any personal recollection of how Madeleine did in the mini-tennis session? - No.
Madeleine and Ella were playing mini tennis in an adjoining court, at the end of the session the children were asked to run around and pick up as many tennis balls as they could.
Your adults hitting balls at speeds of 100 mph is very exaggerated, they were in an adjoining court not right next to them.
Though everything needs to be exaggerated, or everyone mistaken for your purpose doesn't it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 01:54:30 PM
the camera also took pride of place on the table in the mccs apartment......strange how it was not used ...
k mcc ran back for it to take the tennis photo..not sure if maddie had to stand there holding ..them balls
the mccs were not credably seen any where after the sunday .....even eating alone when the others were having picnics at Payne's apartment ...yet Payne was there friend
maddie left in the creche when the rest were on the beach ....even Elle was took out ...maddies best friend ...yet that was the best day of maddies life according to k mcc
madeleine said 'I've had the best day ever, I'm having lots and lots of fun' kids say things like that doesn't mean it was the best day of her life, she had been on a boat which must have been exciting for her.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 01, 2016, 01:58:19 PM
Madeleine and Ella were playing mini tennis in an adjoining court, at the end of the session the children were asked to run around and pick up as many tennis balls as they could.
Your adults hitting balls at speeds of 100 mph is very exaggerated, they were in an adjoining court not right next to them.
Though everything needs to be exaggerated, or everyone mistaken for your purpose doesn't it.
tennis balls at 100 mph.......it tells us who the mystery person was...Andy Murray
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 02:00:24 PM
see how easy it is to confuse children.......lilly was David Payne's daughter
Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. The cook at the tapas was one of the 'credible' witnesses that 'saw' Madeleine at 16.30 Thursday May 3.
regarding the statement of Maria Manuela Antonia José Tapas Cook who has been considered as a reliable witness seeing Madeleine at 16.30 on May 3rd.
Reading her statement she refers to recognising Madeleine from the photo (of younger maddie)...on the television
the one the mccs first gave to police ...18 month old pic ...making maddie 18 months younger Image.....for some reason unable to copy pic ...but it is on the link
seeing her during the day in the creche next to the restaurant (tapas)
maddie...... was not in that creche...but Lilly was!
Quote:
Dave would take Lilly over to the kids club which was back near the, behind the Tapas Bar area”.
I haven't read anywhere that Madeleine was one and a half in the first photo given to the Police, she looks like the one taken the Christmas before in the red dress where she would have been four months or so short of being four.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 02:03:58 PM
One thing at a time.
Is Blonk happy with the weather charts from some unspecified location that is not the nearest to PdL, which would have been Sagres? I did try to find charts for Lagos as well, but without success.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 02:07:56 PM
I haven't read anywhere that Madeleine was one and a half in the first photo given to the Police, she looks like the one taken the Christmas before in the red dress where she would have been four months or so short of being four.
who said maddie was one and a half..........i said the pic was 18 months old ....
so what anyway ....just because ..YOU haven't read something ...does that make it untrue.
i was not on about the red dress one ......they were the posters ....again though ...they did not even look like maddie as she was ..did they ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 02:15:28 PM
I believe the first poster showed her in red and white spotted pyjamas.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 01, 2016, 02:17:20 PM
Did you see my (repeated) question about the Tapas cook who saw her at high tea on 3 May? She couldn't have mistaken her for Ella as Ella had gone to the Paraiso, and the only two other children of that age group were boys.
Research, research, research gives you facts not opinions!
Berry J 4 years Patel T 4 years Totman L 3 years O'Brien E Reap H 3 years O'Donnel/Wilkins O 3 years Carpenter I 3 years Weinburger E 3 years Foster E 3 years Naylor E 3 years Mills L 3 years McCann M http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARRIVALS.htm
we would joke about the fact that there were 10 blonde three-year-old girls in the group. They were bound to boss around the two boys. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 02:17:53 PM
Research, research, research gives you facts not opinions!
Berry J 4 years Patel T 4 years Totman L 3 years O'Brien E Reap H 3 years O'Donnel/Wilkins O 3 years Carpenter I 3 years Weinburger E 3 years Foster E 3 years Naylor E 3 years Mills L 3 years McCann M http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARRIVALS.htm
we would joke about the fact that there were 10 blonde three-year-old girls in the group. They were bound to boss around the two boys. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
How is the arrivals schedule related to which children were present at the Tapas high-tea on 3 May?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 01, 2016, 02:25:17 PM
who said maddie was one and a half..........i said the pic was 18 months old ....
so what anyway ....just because ..YOU haven't read something ...does that make it untrue.
i was not on about the red dress one ......they were the posters ....again though ...they did not even look like maddie as she was ..did they ...
You said making Madeleine 18 months younger, so that would mean she would be just over 18 months in the first photo given to the Police, I was comparing the first photo given to the Police with the one of Madeleine in the red dress which was taken the Christmas before she disappeared.
Yes the first photo of Madeleine given to the Police did look like her.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 02:30:01 PM
I know which photo you are talking about and no way does it make Madeleine look 18 months younger than she was, she looks very much like the one of her in the red dress taken the Christmas before she disappeared and used later in the search for her.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 02:32:17 PM
I don't follow, Xtina. Perhaps Blonk could explain.
you don't follow ....your right there ...stop pulling things apart that you are not sure of ...it makes it a mockery on your part........and why should blonk ...answer for me
you said
I haven't read anywhere that Madeleine was one and a half in the first photo given to the Police, she looks like the one taken the Christmas before in the red dress where she would have been four months or so short of being four.
i have said no where that the pic of maddie was of her ..one an a half
i said
who said maddie was one and a half..........i said the pic was 18 months old ....
so what anyway ....just because ..YOU haven't read something ...does that make it untrue.
i was not on about the red dress one ......they were the posters ....again though ...they did not even look like maddie as she was ..did they ...
i wasn't on about the red dress .....the poster photo ...plastered all over the place ....that did not show maddie as she was ....when she was ..[as you think] abducted
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 02:37:00 PM
I know which photo you are talking about and no way does it make Madeleine look 18 months younger than she was, she looks very much like the one of her in the red dress taken the Christmas before she disappeared and used later in the search for her.
no way does maddie look like this in the play area photo...
why did the mccs give that photo.......was it to create confusion ...because it certainly has
who was the witnesses seeing ............there is no proof it was maddie
What are you saying xtina that the McCann's deliberately give the police a photograph that didn't look much like Madeleine, so that it would be difficult to find her?
Conspiracy?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 03:00:02 PM
The Police would have needed a full on face photo, the playground one she has her face to the side
I doubt it the McCann's would have given a photo of Madeleine aged two, would they have photo's two years old on their camera?
tho photo they gave ....was took eighteen months previous .
maddie looks a lot younger
the play are photo was of maddie as she was ....what the police would have wanted ....you can see her face .....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 01, 2016, 03:04:14 PM
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
At 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 01, 2016, 03:14:37 PM
How is the arrivals schedule related to which children were present at the Tapas high-tea on 3 May?
All those children (girls) were in the 'Mini's' age group. They were split into two, Lobsters and another group. there were only 2 boys and Madeleine left in the Lobsters on 3rd May, but the other group would have had some children to bring to high tea. Berry. Patel and Naylor were in Madeleine's group so they weren't there. We have no sheets for the other group, but there were plenty of little girls of the right age in it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 01, 2016, 03:39:14 PM
tho photo they gave ....was took eighteen months previous .
maddie looks a lot younger
the play are photo was of maddie as she was ....what the police would have wanted ....you can see her face .....
Presumably the spotted pyjama pic is the one that Russell was desperately in search of a USB port in order to download via his card-reader, so it must have been on the camera card. Was that the only pic downloaded and offered to the police, I wonder? It was fortuitous that he had such a reader, as its not the sort of thing that everyone carries around with them.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 01, 2016, 03:49:23 PM
It amazes me how credulous some of sceptics seem to be, even entertaining this nonense for even a nanno second. Respect due at least to Pathfinder who has described this as death before the 3rd idea as madness, which it clearly is.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: faithlilly on March 01, 2016, 03:55:09 PM
It amazes me how credulous some of sceptics seem to be, even entertaining this nonense for even a nanno second. Respect due at least to Pathfinder who has described this as death before the 3rd idea as madness, which it clearly is.
Of course it is but no more potty than a certain theory doing the round last week.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 04:02:12 PM
It's easy to go off on all sorts of tangents.
However, I still haven't found anything to substantiate the weather question (which is supposed to be a major factor in the concept that the last photo issue couldn't have been taken on 3 May).
Any updates on that?
Blonk: Where was the weather chart from? And who supplied it?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 01, 2016, 04:02:40 PM
How soon you forget Alfie. For ridiculous, convoluted theories you have to go pretty far to beat sadie's and as to who bought into it, you appeared to albeit in a rather selective, face saving way.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 04:24:31 PM
I guess they could have printed the picture and then cut the other girl off with a pair of scissors - you know, the old fashioned way we used before digital came along 8(0(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 01, 2016, 04:26:11 PM
I guess they could have printed the picture and then cut the other girl off with a pair of scissors - you know, the old fashioned way we used before digital came along 8(0(*
Gosh. What a good idea. But those two photos look pretty similar to me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 01, 2016, 04:40:08 PM
How soon you forget Alfie. For ridiculous, convoluted theories you have to go pretty far to beat sadie's and as to who bought into it, you appeared to albeit in a rather selective, face saving way.
Last week's theory for discussion was Slarti's Simple Solution, that's why I asked. And it seems you are being selective in failing to point out that I very clearly stated I did NOT buy into the Jew / bloodline thing. You do like to deflect though don't you? There was I making. an observation about the ridiculousness of this theory on the thread about this theory and all you want to do is talk about something else. Well done 8@??)(
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 01, 2016, 04:47:00 PM
Could we stay On Topic, please. 8)--))
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 01, 2016, 05:20:20 PM
I guess they could have printed the picture and then cut the other girl off with a pair of scissors - you know, the old fashioned way we used before digital came along 8(0(*
I'd need to look it up to be certain.
But from memory, the Madeleine in front of the tree has been magnified quite a bit, not something you can do with scissors.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: faithlilly on March 01, 2016, 05:24:02 PM
Last week's theory for discussion was Slarti's Simple Solution, that's why I asked. And it seems you are being selective in failing to point out that I very clearly stated I did NOT buy into the Jew / bloodline thing. You do like to deflect though don't you? There was I making. an observation about the ridiculousness of this theory on the thread about this theory and all you want to do is talk about something else. Well done 8@??)(
As I said you bought into it in a rather selective, face-saving way. Am I wrong ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 05:29:10 PM
Gosh. What a good idea. But those two photos look pretty similar to me.
IMO both photos were chosen because they clearly showed all Madeleine's facial features - especially her eyes - because she is looking at the camera.
In other photos - especially the last one, she is wearing a hat which hides her hair and throws a shadow, she is not looking at the camera so you can't see any detail of her eyes - and so for identification purposes is not the best by any stretch of the imagination.
The photo of her in the red dress shows her eyes - even the little mark on one of them, the shape of her eyebrows, her hair, her nose, the shape of her mouth and even her teeth. I understand that photo was taken only 5 months previously - and so was obviously the best one to use for the purposes of identification.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 01, 2016, 05:34:43 PM
Maybe not, but a photocopier can and the posters were printed on a colour copier.
The photos were printed on a printer. I've got no idea what the capability of the printer was. Maybe it is a copier as well, but then you'd need to print first, before copying. Somewhat convoluted.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 01, 2016, 05:39:37 PM
The photos were printed on a printer. I've got no idea what the capability of the printer was. Maybe it is a copier as well, but then you'd need to print first, before copying. Somewhat convoluted.
As I recall, the photo was printed at postcard size on a thermal-type printer belonging to one of the nannies. The posters were create on a photocopier.
Blonk: Where was the weather chart from? And who supplied it?
I will have a look at your analysis of the weather in Praia da Luz on Thursday 3 May later, but you are in some difficulty about that, aren't you? - seeing that Kate McCann herself said that the weather was cool and she should have put a cardigan on Madeleine. She doesn't look like she needs a cardigan in the 'Last Photo', does she?
And look just how cold it became in the evening, in the words of the Tapas 9 themselves:
Of the evening temperature, the McCanns’ friend Dr Matthew Oldfield says:
“In the evenings it was very cold”
His wife Rachael Oldfield says:
“It was really cold in the evenings”
Dr David Payne says:
“It was really quite cold some nights and you know perhaps too cold to be sat outside”
while his wife Fiona Payne says
“It was still very cold”
Fiona’s mother, Dianne Webster, said
“…when they were brought up into their apartment and they would have had to come out into the cold…”
Dr Russell O’Brien says
“The nights were really quite chilly”,
while his partner Jane Tanner, the McCanns’ friend who said she might have seen the abductor walking away from near the McCanns’ apartment, complained of the cold that evening and made an issue of collecting her partner’s thick jumper or fleece for him during the evening.
And to cap it all, Kate McCann herself said of the weather that day:
''It was, I remember, very cold and windy and I discovered five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable.''
Come on, Carana, end your historical revisionism about the weather! You can't change weather facts now.
And why did you ask me AGAIN about the temperature charts? I told you to ask Richard Hall himself and told you how to contact him, i.e. via the RichPlanet website.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 01, 2016, 06:11:29 PM
why anyone would choose to enter into dialogue with a nutter is beyond me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 06:37:53 PM
I will have a look at your analysis of the weather in Praia da Luz on Thursday 3 May later, but you are in some difficulty about that, aren't you? - seeing that Kate McCann herself said that the weather was cool and she should have put a cardigan on Madeleine. She doesn't look like she needs a cardigan in the 'Last Photo', does she?
And look just how cold it became in the evening, in the words of the Tapas 9 themselves:
Of the evening temperature, the McCanns’ friend Dr Matthew Oldfield says:
“In the evenings it was very cold”
His wife Rachael Oldfield says:
“It was really cold in the evenings”
Dr David Payne says:
“It was really quite cold some nights and you know perhaps too cold to be sat outside”
while his wife Fiona Payne says
“It was still very cold”
Fiona’s mother, Dianne Webster, said
“…when they were brought up into their apartment and they would have had to come out into the cold…”
Dr Russell O’Brien says
“The nights were really quite chilly”,
while his partner Jane Tanner, the McCanns’ friend who said she might have seen the abductor walking away from near the McCanns’ apartment, complained of the cold that evening and made an issue of collecting her partner’s thick jumper or fleece for him during the evening.
And to cap it all, Kate McCann herself said of the weather that day:
''It was, I remember, very cold and windy and I discovered five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable.''
Come on, Carana, end your historical revisionism about the weather! You can't change weather facts now.
And why did you ask me AGAIN about the temperature charts? I told you to ask Richard Hall himself and told you how to contact him, i.e. via the RichPlanet website.
What's the connection between a pleasant ambient temperature in the early afternoon sunshine and a chilly wind at night?
Do you support the weather chart in the Hall "exposé" or whatever it may be called, or don't you?
Yes or no will suffice.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 01, 2016, 06:46:55 PM
I will have a look at your analysis of the weather in Praia da Luz on Thursday 3 May later, but you are in some difficulty about that, aren't you? - seeing that Kate McCann herself said that the weather was cool and she should have put a cardigan on Madeleine. She doesn't look like she needs a cardigan in the 'Last Photo', does she?
And look just how cold it became in the evening, in the words of the Tapas 9 themselves:
Of the evening temperature, the McCanns’ friend Dr Matthew Oldfield says:
“In the evenings it was very cold”
His wife Rachael Oldfield says:
“It was really cold in the evenings”
Dr David Payne says:
“It was really quite cold some nights and you know perhaps too cold to be sat outside”
while his wife Fiona Payne says
“It was still very cold”
Fiona’s mother, Dianne Webster, said
“…when they were brought up into their apartment and they would have had to come out into the cold…”
Dr Russell O’Brien says
“The nights were really quite chilly”,
while his partner Jane Tanner, the McCanns’ friend who said she might have seen the abductor walking away from near the McCanns’ apartment, complained of the cold that evening and made an issue of collecting her partner’s thick jumper or fleece for him during the evening.
And to cap it all, Kate McCann herself said of the weather that day:
''It was, I remember, very cold and windy and I discovered five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable.''
Come on, Carana, end your historical revisionism about the weather! You can't change weather facts now.
And why did you ask me AGAIN about the temperature charts? I told you to ask Richard Hall himself and told you how to contact him, i.e. via the RichPlanet website.
All your quotes re weather are from the evening...even the desert is cold in the evening
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 01, 2016, 10:15:17 PM
What's the connection between a pleasant ambient temperature in the early afternoon sunshine and a chilly wind at night?
Do you support the weather chart in the Hall "exposé" or whatever it may be called, or don't you?
Yes or no will suffice.
yes or no doesn't always suffice does it though...
i find on the chart [sun hours ] you put up ....starts at the 3rd of may ...till the 31st of may ....non of the 28th onwards...when the mccs arrived the sun hours on the 3rd of may ...looks very low to me....
Research, research, research gives you facts not opinions!
Berry J 4 years Patel T 4 years Totman L 3 years O'Brien E Reap H 3 years O'Donnel/Wilkins O 3 years Carpenter I 3 years Weinburger E 3 years Foster E 3 years Naylor E 3 years Mills L 3 years McCann M http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARRIVALS.htm
we would joke about the fact that there were 10 blonde three-year-old girls in the group. They were bound to boss around the two boys. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
On 1 May, there were 5 girls (including M and some of the other girls on your list) and 2 boys in her group.
But on 3 May, there was only M and 2 boys from her group for high tea (Ella had gone to the beach).
6. That in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine); http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIDS-CLUB-STAFF.htm
There were also a couple of toddlers from the Jellyfish group. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CRECHE/Processo-pdf01pages108-118%20%5B112-120%5D/processopdf01page119-CrecheRecordsJ.jpg
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 10:36:16 AM
yes or no doesn't always suffice does it though...
i find on the chart [sun hours ] you put up ....starts at the 3rd of may ...till the 31st of may ....non of the 28th onwards...when the mccs arrived the sun hours on the 3rd of may ...looks very low to me....
All those children (girls) were in the 'Mini's' age group. They were split into two, Lobsters and another group. there were only 2 boys and Madeleine left in the Lobsters on 3rd May, but the other group would have had some children to bring to high tea. Berry. Patel and Naylor were in Madeleine's group so they weren't there. We have no sheets for the other group, but there were plenty of little girls of the right age in it.
I was trying to check on that. It's a possibility that there may have been other little blonde girls from another Mini group, but not much seems to be in the files about it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 11:18:13 AM
I'm still not sure which photos the cook may have seen on TV. The one released by the PJ is likely to have been one of them, but others were circulating quite quickly as well.
02-Processos Vol II Pages 261-263 Witness Statement Maria Manuela Antonia Jose Date: 06 - 05 - 2007 Place of Work: OC With relation to the facts being investigated, she confirms that on the 4 May 2007, at about 18h30, when arriving for work at the complex, she heard from her supervisor, Steve, that a female child who was staying with her parents and siblings at one of the OC apartments had gone missing on the previous day (3rd May 2007).
When she was informed about the disappearance she did not realise which child this was, it was only later, upon watching the television news that night and after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crêche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
This is one of the earliest images of Madeleine released to the public after May 3.
Photo Agency Sources:
Bruno Press http://www.brunopress.nl 4623842.jpg Caption: Undated family handout photo of three-year-old Madeleine McCann who went missing while on holiday in Portugal. Release date: May 4, 2007
I'm still not sure which photos the cook may have seen on TV. The one released by the PJ is likely to have been one of them, but others were circulating quite quickly as well.
02-Processos Vol II Pages 261-263 Witness Statement Maria Manuela Antonia Jose Date: 06 - 05 - 2007 Place of Work: OC With relation to the facts being investigated, she confirms that on the 4 May 2007, at about 18h30, when arriving for work at the complex, she heard from her supervisor, Steve, that a female child who was staying with her parents and siblings at one of the OC apartments had gone missing on the previous day (3rd May 2007).
When she was informed about the disappearance she did not realise which child this was, it was only later, upon watching the television news that night and after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crêche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
This is one of the earliest images of Madeleine released to the public after May 3.
Photo Agency Sources:
Bruno Press http://www.brunopress.nl 4623842.jpg Caption: Undated family handout photo of three-year-old Madeleine McCann who went missing while on holiday in Portugal. Release date: May 4, 2007
there was little..... very very little sunshine though was there a fraction .....
yet on the sunday...it was a hot day sunglasses/sun hats/bare arms feet in pool weather
what is the difference.... wether it was faro ...or sagres
The issue was Hall's allegation, substantiated by some unidentified weather chart that he'd found or had been given via some unidentified source showing very little sunshine that day, the photo couldn't have been taken in PdL on 3 May and was therefore somehow evidence to support the theory of a demise prior to 3 May and an ensuing coverup.
All I was trying to point out was that there were 11.5 hours of sunshine in nearby Sagres on 3 May according to the historical charts on Weatheronline.
Xtina: have a look at the Sagres charts I posted (closer to PdL and to the west, where the dominant winds apparently come from). You are looking at the Faro one, which I only posted for comparison purposes as an example of unpleasant weather somewhat further to the east.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 02, 2016, 11:33:31 AM
The issue was Hall's allegation, substantiated by some unidentified weather chart that he'd found or had been given via some unidentified source showing very little sunshine that day, the photo couldn't have been taken in PdL on 3 May and was therefore somehow evidence to support the theory of a demise prior to 3 May and an ensuing coverup.
All I was trying to point out was that there were 11.5 hours of sunshine in nearby Sagres on 3 May according to the historical charts on Weatheronline.
Xtina: have a look at the Sagres charts I posted (closer to PdL and to the west, where the dominant winds apparently come from). You are looking at the Faro one, which I only posted for comparison purposes as an example of unpleasant weather somewhat further to the east.
where did it say eleven hours of sunshine ....looked like less than two to me..one the link on my last post
faro ....sagress ...are practically exactly the same where weather is concerned
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 02, 2016, 11:46:07 AM
I was trying to check on that. It's a possibility that there may have been other little blonde girls from another Mini group, but not much seems to be in the files about it.
It's always possible that the Mini's had only 4 children altogether attending on the afternoon of May 3rd. The person who had charge of the other Mini group was very vague about that day. Could it be because she had no children to care for and had gone elsewhere?;
She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew's (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. (Kate collected MM, not Gerry and the group were supposed to have gone sailing that morning. Fancy not remembering that 6 children had disappeared from the room!)
She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary. (If MM was seen by the cook at the Tapas she was there at 4,30pm) http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 12:56:20 PM
where did it say eleven hours of sunshine ....looked like less than two to me..one the link on my last post
faro ....sagress ...are practically exactly the same where weather is concerned
This is what I can see of the Sagres sunshine chart:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 01:04:34 PM
In contrast, here is the sunshine chart of FARO
(Same chart, but "Faro" had got clipped out and I don't see how to substitute the second one in place of the first one, in which the name wasn't visible.)
Cancel that... I just worked out how to delete the first one that didn't show the location properly.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 02, 2016, 01:20:48 PM
(Same chart, but "Faro" had got clipped out and I don't see how to substitute the second one in place of the first one, in which the name wasn't visible.)
Cancel that... I just worked out how to delete the first one that didn't show the location properly.
so look at the third of may then .that's the bit in the middle......practically no sunshine.....1 hour if that...
and it shows the difference to the 28 th and 29th april.....how hot them two days was
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 02, 2016, 01:23:54 PM
Does any bright spark have the link to the video of the McCanns on the morning of 4 May, when they were being taken by the police to Portimão to give statements?
ETA John has put all this stuff in the video library, and a copy of the relevant video is linked in.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 01:24:35 PM
so look at the third of may then .......practically no sunshine.....1 hour if that....
Xtina... I've just gone to the trouble of posting sunshine charts of Sagres (much closer to PdL and to the west) and one from Faro, which is somewhat further to the east.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 02, 2016, 04:16:53 PM
so look at the third of may then - that's the bit in the middle...practically no sunshine...1 hour if that...
and it shows the difference to the 28th and 29th April...how hot them two days was
I am also struggling to understand this chart with the yellow bars, but it looks to me as though it is in perfect harmony with Hall's film, viz.,
Saturday 28 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Sunday 29 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Monday 30 April - NO SUN Tuesday 1 May - NO SUN Wednesday 2 May - NO SUN Thursday 3 MAY - ONLY 1 HOUR OF SUN
Looking at that, I would say that Hall has actually understated the contrast between Sunday and Thursday.
Where are your Sagres charts? I can't find them
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 04:37:29 PM
I am also struggling to understand this chart with the yellow bars, but it looks to me as though it is in perfect harmony with Hall's film, viz.,
Saturday 28 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Sunday 29 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Monday 30 April - NO SUN Tuesday 1 May - NO SUN Wednesday 2 May - NO SUN Thursday 3 MAY - ONLY 1 HOUR OF SUN
Looking at that, I would say that Hall has actually understated the contrast between Sunday and Thursday.
I am also struggling to understand this chart with the yellow bars, but it looks to me as though it is in perfect harmony with Hall's film, viz.,
Saturday 28 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Sunday 29 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Monday 30 April - NO SUN Tuesday 1 May - NO SUN Wednesday 2 May - NO SUN Thursday 3 MAY - ONLY 1 HOUR OF SUN
Looking at that, I would say that Hall has actually understated the contrast between Sunday and Thursday.
Where are your Sagres charts? I can't find them
They are on this Thread.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 02, 2016, 05:00:31 PM
Right, so we know Sagres was sunny and Faro not, where does that leave PdL?
No idea. I'm not the one making the allegations that the "last photo" had to be a fake based on some unidentified weather chart from an unidentified source.
Sagres is the Algarve "Land's End": it can get bad weather from Atlantic fronts, which tend to move towards the east. Wednesday was a rainy morning in PdL. The Sagres charts show sunny weather in Sagres on the Thursday, while Faro was miserable.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 02, 2016, 05:06:55 PM
I am also struggling to understand this chart with the yellow bars, but it looks to me as though it is in perfect harmony with Hall's film, viz.,
Saturday 28 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Sunday 29 April - SUNNY ALL DAY Monday 30 April - NO SUN Tuesday 1 May - NO SUN Wednesday 2 May - NO SUN Thursday 3 MAY - ONLY 1 HOUR OF SUN
Looking at that, I would say that Hall has actually understated the contrast between Sunday and Thursday.
Where are your Sagres charts? I can't find them
The first relevant test is to compare the Sagres and Faro charts for the period. This comparison quite clearly shows there were large differences between the two, hardly surprising as they are over 50 miles apart in two halves (Barlavento and Sotovento) of the Algarve known to have different patterns.
As Faro is 40 miles to the E of Luz, while Sagres is 14ml to the W of Luz, a first level conclusion would be to prefer the Sagres version as likely to be more accurate, based purely on proximity.
Then there is a comparison of Sagres with Mr Hall's chart. As the latter is stated to have been constructed in Luz itself, if its provenance is good, it would clearly trump the Sagres figures. I have appended a copy of Mr Hall's chart at the end of this post.
As a check, I looked at the Sky video taken in the morning of 4 May 2007, where the McCanns are being driven to Portimão to give statements.
That matches Mr Hall's chart for the time. The sun was casting strong shadows in the video, thus matching Mr Hall's chart, which also depicts sunshine at the time.
The wind direction and speed for Sagres appears to be a paid service, and who knows, I may be curious enough to cough up the dosh.
My interest happens to be in the sniffer dogs brought in late on 4 May, given that a wind should have affected their findings. But I would not turn down a two birds with one stone result.
Mr Hall's chart shows the wind direction at 12 hourly intervals. Unfortunately, it does not show the wind speed, which affects both The Last Photo and the sniffer dogs. Mr Hall's source should have this data, as it is one of the most basic functions of a weather station.
Mr Hall's chart depicts the wind direction as being from the NW or W in the main, with the occasional SW. It never depicts weather (clouds) coming from the E = Faro. It consistently depicts weather (clouds) coming from the W = Sagres.
Taking both into account, Sagres as a source is clearly superior to Faro, based on wind direction and proximity.
The question then is, is Mr Hall's chart superior to the Sagres weather station? I, for one, would be more certain of this if there was more information re Mr Hall's source and the mechanics of the weather station reported to be in Luz.
Here is Mr Hall's weather chart, captured from the video "When Madeleine Died?"
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 02, 2016, 05:07:26 PM
No idea. I'm not the one making the allegations that the "last photo" had to be a fake based on some unidentified weather chart from an unidentified source.
Sagres is the Algarve "Land's End": it can get bad weather from Atlantic fronts, which tend to move towards the east. Wednesday was a rainy morning in PdL. The Sagres charts show sunny weather in Sagres on the Thursday, while Faro was miserable.
As a long time visitor to the Lizard, I agree with you. Very different from upcountry Cornwall.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 02, 2016, 05:53:14 PM
I have more trouble remembering that mnemonic than I do days in each month.
But yes.
There seem absolutely no doubt that 31 days hath May ....
(I read it in a diary. So it must be true) ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 07:31:43 PM
Until the source of the weather map is provided, I think I'll go with the Sagres one as being the most likely indicator of weather there that day.
Then, there is still the Tapas 3 May high tea issue. For some reason the Tapas cook appears to have been discounted as an independent witness. I'm still waiting to discover why.
I'll try to find the energy to embark on Part 2 of this series shortly...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 07:38:34 PM
leaves us guessing but obviously hall has better sources...or not
My "us" was a sort of "global" us which would include Mr Hall. Two weather data sets taken at locations 120 kilometres apart and we are going to interpolate a third data set for a spot about 1/5 of the way along going W to E. Hurricane ? what hurricane ? (1987 joke)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 02, 2016, 08:16:41 PM
The first relevant test is to compare the Sagres and Faro charts for the period. This comparison quite clearly shows there were large differences between the two, hardly surprising as they are over 50 miles apart in two halves (Barlavento and Sotovento) of the Algarve known to have different patterns.
As Faro is 40 miles to the E of Luz, while Sagres is 14ml to the W of Luz, a first level conclusion would be to prefer the Sagres version as likely to be more accurate, based purely on proximity.
There is a far, far easier method than all of this interpolation, extrapolation or interpretation or whatever we call it between two places some way from Praia da Luz, namely Sagres and Faro. And that's to ask someone who was there on that very day - Thursday 3rd May.
Who better than a Tapas 7 member.
This is Fiona Payne's verbatim and succinct account of the day's weather:
QUOTE: “And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm” UNQUOTE
This is consistent with the mid-day temperature on Thursday (as per Hall's film) of a mere 17C (compare Sunday mid-day when it was 21C), but a later rise in the late afternoon that day to a maximum of 19C.
It looks like the 'hour of sun' that Praia da Luz was blessed with that day probably came about 5pm or 6pm.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 02, 2016, 10:07:23 PM
There is a far, far easier method than all of this interpolation, extrapolation or interpretation or whatever we call it between two places some way from Praia da Luz, namely Sagres and Faro. And that's to ask someone who was there on that very day - Thursday 3rd May.
Who better than a Tapas 7 member.
This is Fiona Payne's verbatim and succinct account of the day's weather:
QUOTE: “And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm” UNQUOTE
This is consistent with the mid-day temperature on Thursday (as per Hall's film) of a mere 17C (compare Sunday mid-day when it was 21C), but a later rise in the late afternoon that day to a maximum of 19C.
It looks like the 'hour of sun' that Praia da Luz was blessed with that day probably came about 5pm or 6pm.
If that is all we need then let's just junk Mr Hall's chart. Sunshine at about 5 or 6pm? Not according to Mr Hall's chart, which has no sunshine that day.
Here is Mr Hall's chart again. Zero sun on 3 May.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 02, 2016, 10:16:11 PM
If that is all we need then let's just junk Mr Hall's chart. Sunshine at about 5 or 6pm? Not according to Mr Hall's chart, which has no sunshine that day.
Here is Mr Hall's chart again. Zero sun on 3 May.
Er, I think you have misinterpreted Hall's chart.
The grey bars show, I believe, the proportion of the sky covered by cloud.
A grey bar to the top: 100% cloud cover.
A grey bar to the middle: 50% cloud cover.
A low grey bar: maybe 10% or 20% cloud cover.
I am not sure as I can't seem to expand it all to read it properly.
Even if you have 80% or 90% cloud cover, you can still get short sunny intervals.
To me the chart looks consistent with Fiona Payne's concise summation of the weather that Thursday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2016, 10:21:55 PM
The grey bars show, I believe, the proportion of the sky covered by cloud.
A grey bar to the top: 100% cloud cover.
A grey bar to the middle: 50% cloud cover.
A low grey bar: maybe 10% or 20% cloud cover.
I am not sure as I can't seem to expand it all to read it properly.
Even if you have 80% or 90% cloud cover, you can still get short sunny intervals.
To me the chart looks consistent with Fiona Payne's concise summation of the weather that Thursday.
It would help to know the source of this chart. What do the vertical pink lines represent?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 02, 2016, 11:06:40 PM
1578 'The third of May, are you able to summarise the days activities'' RO 'Yeah, the day was actually, it was different to the others because, well it was warmer weather wise.
Thursday was a pretty decent day for weather. MO
Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise. ROB
We took all the kids down to the beach because it was actually nicer weather. So, yeah, the Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”. JT
Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm'. FP
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 02, 2016, 11:31:38 PM
Mr Hall says there is no independent corroboration of a sighting of Madeleine on 3rd May 2007. Sr Amaral says there is an independent sighting around 17:30 on 3rd May 2007. So they disagree. Leaving supporters on the horns of a dilemma. Sr Amaral says Madeleine was alive on 3rd May 2007.....that's errrm errr sort of you know well ..... right 8()-000( 8(>((.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 02, 2016, 11:56:06 PM
DC1485'What time before this did you see the individual'
CT'It must have happened, I do not want to guess, I cannot...it was during the time we were on the terrace, between three and three-thirty until six, when we returned to the apartment, five-thirty or six because it was cooling down, thus, it was in the afternoon, and I hate to do this, excuse me but it was on'
DC1485'It does not matter that you are trying to guess, it does not matter that you guess.
CT'If it was in the afternoon, somewhere three, three-thirty and five-thirty, because the sun was going down and it was getting colder.
DC1485'Well.
CT'Well, I am certain that we were on the terrace between 3:00/3:30 until 5:30 on Thursday afternoon.
An independent witness who may well have seen Madeleine returning to 5a at aound 5.30pm with the rest of her family. She also confirmed the sun was shining.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 12:49:28 AM
The grey bars show, I believe, the proportion of the sky covered by cloud.
A grey bar to the top: 100% cloud cover.
A grey bar to the middle: 50% cloud cover.
A low grey bar: maybe 10% or 20% cloud cover.
I am not sure as I can't seem to expand it all to read it properly.
Even if you have 80% or 90% cloud cover, you can still get short sunny intervals.
To me the chart looks consistent with Fiona Payne's concise summation of the weather that Thursday.
If you can get a weather station that tells the proportion of the sky covered by cloud, please tell me where I can buy one.
After Mr Hall's video I have worked out 2 types of sunshine measurers. Both work on the simple principle of - it was very bright - or - it was not very bright.
The old fashioned kind uses a glass sphere to burn a sun track into a special curved strip. The newer one uses sensors deployed around a central rod, to see whether the rod is casting a shadow (so sunny) or all the sensors say not (so cloudy).
Neither technology, nor Fiona Payne's statement, frankly, is very important.
It's still Sagres records v Hall's chart. They don't match up. One is wrong.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 06:42:05 AM
Someone on 3A appeared to have got the full Exif data.
XMP Create Date 2007:05:24 17:41:20+01:00 11 months, 23 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes, 4 seconds ago Creator Tool Adobe Photoshop CS Windows Date/Time Digitized 2007:05:03 13:29:51+01:00 1 year, 13 days, 11 hours, 14 minutes, 33 seconds ago Date/Time Original 2007:05:03 13:29:51+01:00 1 year, 13 days, 11 hours, 14 minutes, 33 seconds ago Derived From Document ID adobe:docid:photoshop:f6b0285f-0a0a-11dc-b952-be0bcc6c30e7 Derived From Instance ID uuid:63e9333c-0a0c-11dc-b952-be0bcc6c30e7 Document ID adobe:docid:photoshop:367c54b5-0a0d-11dc-b952-be0bcc6c30e7 Flash Fired False Flash Function False Flash Mode Auto Flash Red Eye Mode True Flash Return No return detection Focal Plane X Resolution 10816.9014084507 Focal Plane Y Resolution 10816.9014084507 Format image/jpeg History Metadata Date 2007:05:24 17:41:22+01:00 11 months, 23 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes, 2 seconds ago Modify Date 2007:05:24 17:41:22+01:00 11 months, 23 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes, 2 seconds ago
EXIF ' this group of metadata is encoded in 9,316 bytes (9.1k) Aperture Value 4.0 Color Space sRGB Components Configuration YCbCr Compressed Bits Per Pixel 2 Compression JPEG (old-style) Create Date 2007:05:03 13:29:51 1 year, 13 days, 3 hours, 14 minutes, 33 seconds ago Custom Rendered Normal Date/Time Original 2007:05:03 13:29:51 1 year, 13 days, 3 hours, 14 minutes, 33 seconds ago Digital Zoom Ratio 1 Exif Image Size 3,072 × 2,304 Exif Version 0220 Exposure Compensation 0 Exposure Mode Auto Exposure Time 1/1000 F Number 4.0 File Source Digital Camera Flash Auto, Did not fire, Red-eye reduction Flashpix Version 0100 Focal Length 21.7 mm Focal Plane Resolution 10,816.90141 pixels/inch Interoperability Index R98 - DCF basic file (sRGB) Interoperability Version 0100 Make Canon Max Aperture Value 3.5 Metering Mode Multi-segment Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot A620 Modify Date 2007:05:24 17:41:22 11 months, 22 days, 23 hours, 3 minutes, 2 seconds ago Orientation Horizontal (normal) Related Image Height 2,304 Related Image Width 3,072 Resolution 180 pixels/inch Scene Capture Type Standard Sensing Method One-chip color area Shutter Speed Value 1/1002 Software Adobe Photoshop CS Windows Thumbnail Length 8,182 User Comment White Balance Auto X Resolution 72 Y Cb Cr Positioning Centered Y Resolution 72
APP14 APP14 Flags 0 [14] APP14 Flags 1 (none) Color Transform YCbCr DCT Encode Version 100
IPTC By-line Title HO Caption-Abstract CORRECTING SOURCE IN IPCT:%0d%0aPicture released by the McCann family 24 May 2007 and was taken 03 May 2007, the same day Madeleine McCann (R) went missing from the family's holiday apartment in the southern Algarve region. The photo also shows Madeleine's father Gerry and sister Amelie. Madeleine was abducted as she slept with her brother and sister in a hotel apartment at the Ocean Club Resort while her parents dined at a nearby restaurant. AFP PHOTO/HO Category CLJ City Lagos Copyright Notice ImageForum Country-Primary Location Code PRT Country-Primary Location Name Portugal Credit AFP Date Created 2007:05:24 11 months, 23 days, 16 hours, 44 minutes, 24 seconds ago Headline - IPTC Application Record 243 Par1325555 Language Identifier EN Object Name CORRECTION-PORTUGAL-BRITAIN-CRIME Original Transmission Reference POR01 Source FAMILY HANDOUT Special Instructions CORRECTING SOURCE IN IPCT Supplemental Categories Crime Time Created 15:21:29+00:00 Writer-Editor lfb
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This all beings us back to the question of the paucity of photographs of Madeleine that week.
Leaving aside for a moment the two very controversial photos - the 'Last Photo' and the 'Tennis Balls' photo, which miraculously seems to have been taken on two different days by two different people - what are we left with? - just three, all obviously taken on the late Saturday afternoon just after they arrived in Praia da Luz.
(snip)
Whoever posted notes (Albym?) seems to have noted quite a few photos of Madeleine.
The pink tracksuit one is noted as being taken on 2 May, but I'm not sure where that information came from.
The "playground man" pic was taken that day, according to Bruno Press. http://www.brunopress.nl/bin/Brunopress.dll/go?a=disp&t=sr-loadersearch.html&searchtext=madeleine+mccann+2007
(p. 8 - ref 01256702 and 01256698)
If so, there must have been a bit of sunshine poking through at some point on Wed pm.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 03, 2016, 09:03:51 AM
It's still Sagres records v Hall's chart. They don't match up. One is wrong.
the charts R H showed were for PDL.....................the mccs where in PDL
Thursday is not confermed as being sunny all day ...as obviously the sunday was
“And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm”
t it can be overcast and still fairly warm.......but not as the so called last picture showed ...[hot and sunny]
k mcc...in her own words in her book says...the weather was a bit on the cool side i should have brought a cardigan
the photo shown as the last was not cardigan weather
why did it take three weeks for the mccs to show that photo.....was it to hand it in when the date was changed.
his sisters Philomena husband was a experienced camera expert/photshoper.....did he give it to him when he was in England
the photo was handed over 24 hours after ...Philomena arrived ....her husband seems very weird ..
as the clip shows 19 min 10 secs ..into it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 03, 2016, 09:07:59 AM
After reading the evidence from witnesses and the different charts produced on this thread - it would seem to me that on 3rd May the weather began to improve and the sun came out more and more frequently as the day went on.
What the weather was like 40 miles away - is not irrefutable evidence of what it was doing in PdL
Therefore any claim that it was impossible for the sun to be shining at the time the last photo was taken is erroneous IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 03, 2016, 09:09:11 AM
Whoever posted notes (Albym?) seems to have noted quite a few photos of Madeleine.
The pink tracksuit one is noted as being taken on 2 May, but I'm not sure where that information came from.
The "playground man" pic was taken that day, according to Bruno Press. http://www.brunopress.nl/bin/Brunopress.dll/go?a=disp&t=sr-loadersearch.html&searchtext=madeleine+mccann+2007
(p. 8 - ref 01256702 and 01256698)
If so, there must have been a bit of sunshine poking through at some point on Wed pm.
After reading the evidence from witnesses and the different charts produced on this thread - it would seem to me that on 3rd May the weather began to improve and the sun came out more and more frequently as the day went on.
What the weather was like 60 or 70 miles away - is not irrefutable evidence of what it was doing in PdL
Therefore any claim that it was impossible for the sun to be shining at the time the last photo was taken is erroneous IMO.
who said it was 60/70 miles away ....bit of an exaggeration there ..
.for a start...you are practically doubling it
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 03, 2016, 09:23:39 AM
who said it was 60/70 miles away ....bit of an exaggeration there ..
.for a start...you are practically doubling it
You may well be right - if so can you say how far Faro was from PdL and I will edit my post. I did read elsewhere that Faro Airport was where the info originated - do you know whether that is the case or not?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 03, 2016, 09:35:31 AM
You may well be right - if so can you say how far Faro was from PdL and I will edit my post. I did read elsewhere that Faro Airport was where the info originated - do you know whether that is the case or not?
As Faro is 40 miles to the E of Luz
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 03, 2016, 09:42:46 AM
After reading the evidence from witnesses and the different charts produced on this thread - it would seem to me that on 3rd May the weather began to improve and the sun came out more and more frequently as the day went on.
What the weather was like 40 miles away - is not irrefutable evidence of what it was doing in PdL
Therefore any claim that it was impossible for the sun to be shining at the time the last photo was taken is erroneous IMO.
The anecdotal evidence from people who were actually in Praia da Luz on the day in question stating there was an improvement in the weather swings it for me. Then I'm not hung up on conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 03, 2016, 09:59:40 AM
It's still Sagres records v Hall's chart. They don't match up. One is wrong.
the charts R H showed were for PDL.....................the mccs where in PDL
Thursday is not confermed as being sunny all day ...as obviously the sunday was
“And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm”
t it can be overcast and still fairly warm.......but not as the so called last picture showed ...[hot and sunny]
k mcc...in her own words in her book says...the weather was a bit on the cool side i should have brought a cardigan
the photo shown as the last was not cardigan weather
why did it take three weeks for the mccs to show that photo.....was it to hand it in when the date was changed.
his sisters Philomena husband was a experienced camera expert/photshoper.....did he give it to him when he was in England
the photo was handed over 24 hours after ...Philomena arrived ....her husband seems very weird ..
as the clip shows 19 min 10 secs ..into it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
I know nothing about photoshopping but if Gerry had access to such an experienced camera expert/photoshopper - then why didn't he get him to make the photo appear to be taken in dull weather conditions?
Two police forces have no problem with that last photo - only conspiracy theorists IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 03, 2016, 10:08:11 AM
I know nothing about photoshopping but if Gerry had access to such an experienced camera expert/photoshopper - then why didn't he get him to make the photo appear to be taken in dull weather conditions?
Two police forces have no problem with that last photo - only conspiracy theorists IMO.
That is one of the most logical statements I have seen in this whole sorry conspiracy discussion.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 10:22:05 AM
Hall on cloud cover: "... They show that on the Thursday there was about 50% cloud cover from dawn rising to nearly 100% cloud cover by the early afternoon."
???
Is there any vertical correlation between sunshine / cloud cover and the temperature chart in the row above that?
There are vertical grid lines separating the days.
Where does he get the assumption from that 50% cloud cover starts at dawn if it's meant to be a 24-hour chart?
If it does start at dawn for some reason, then how can the higher level of cloud cover towards the right of that chart correspond to early afternoon?
10:40 ish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 10:25:37 AM
I know nothing about photoshopping but if Gerry had access to such an experienced camera expert/photoshopper - then why didn't he get him to make the photo appear to be taken in dull weather conditions?
Two police forces have no problem with that last photo - only conspiracy theorists IMO.
I don't think that you're supposed to ask sensible questions, Benice. It detracts from the intergalactic conspiracy evidence.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 03, 2016, 10:26:56 AM
It's still Sagres records v Hall's chart. They don't match up. One is wrong.
the charts R H showed were for PDL.....................the mccs where in PDL
Thursday is not confermed as being sunny all day ...as obviously the sunday was
...
Thanks to an earlier response by Blonk, I now have 3 major errors in that weather chart, plus an issue with the stated method of production.
I could have a stab at the source of these errors, but to prove it I would need to put major effort into finding the person Mr Hall states is the source, and my life is too short for such a futile exercise.
That weather chart is as real as The Hitler Diaries.
I want to move on to a couple of the other aspects surrounding the holiday photos, so I am done discussing weather charts.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 03, 2016, 10:44:57 AM
I know nothing about photoshopping but if Gerry had access to such an experienced camera expert/photoshopper - then why didn't he get him to make the photo appear to be taken in dull weather conditions?
Two police forces have no problem with that last photo - only conspiracy theorists IMO.
then why didn't he get him to make the photo appear to be taken in dull weather conditions?
oh pleeese....what round a pool ...with sun hats feet in pool bare arms ....
look at the photo would hardly look right in dull weather ...would it
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 03, 2016, 10:49:36 AM
Thanks to an earlier response by Blonk, I now have 3 major errors in that weather chart, plus an issue with the stated method of production.
I could have a stab at the source of these errors, but to prove it I would need to put major effort into finding the person Mr Hall states is the source, and my life is too short for such a futile exercise.
That weather chart is as real as The Hitler Diaries.
I want to move on to a couple of the other aspects surrounding the holiday photos, so I am done discussing weather charts.
your best bet would be to ask ...R H ....who his source was ..
.or any questions you need to ask .
.there is a page on his web site to do this
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 03, 2016, 11:03:45 AM
then why didn't he get him to make the photo appear to be taken in dull weather conditions?
oh pleeese....what round a pool ...with sun hats feet in pool bare arms ....
look at the photo would hardly look right in dull weather ...would it
So if the sun was coming in and out intermittently (which seems likely) - would you expect them to be whipping off the sun hats and dragging them out of the pool every time the sun went in and then putting their hats back on and going back to the pool every time the sun reappeared? Surely not. That would be silly. IMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 12:03:59 PM
The camera first came out towards the end of 2005. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canona620/
Let me see if I've got this correct.
Photo supposedly taken 3 May 2007.
Photo apparently not in those handed to PJ by Gerry and A N Other around 8th May.
Gerry on 10th May states he has no further photos of Madeleine.
The Final Photo was released on 24 May 2007.
A high res version appears to surface with KTPHorg around mid-May 2008.
This is put through EXIFtool to generate the EXIF data that you listed, around mid-May 2008.
KTPH claimed to be an organisation to Keep The Profile High of all missing children, not just Madeleine.
KTPH site no longer exists. (One post on 3As suggests the user using the name theKTPHorg was based in Spain when the image surfaced, though the quality of the English used suggests his/her first language was English.)
Based on the above, my first question would be how KTPH got hold of this. It appears not to be direct from Team McCann, but from the version released on 24 May 2007, complete with meta-data added by AP (?), something Team McCann was unlikely to have.
So, is there any more info on how KTPH got an AP photo? But did not credit AP.
Thanks Carana for the info re the camera's introduction date. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 12:25:48 PM
I thought that Hall's "documentary", or whatever one chooses to call it, was supposed to be fact-based? If so, why wasn't the source mentioned?
Is there any particular reason why a bona fide source would choose to remain anonymous concerning weather conditions in late April - early May?
I can think of more than one reason why a source would wish to remain anonymous, and more than one reason why Mr Hall would not name his source, even if his source was OK with being named.
I am aware of more than 1 person in the area who has snippets of info re the case, but the general attitude is they do not wish to get involved. Hence any contribution would need to be anonymous.
You've seen the mill any significant witness goes through. Named, hauled to Faro, exposed to the media, questioned by the PJ using questions constructed by OG, OG sitting in, the need for an interpreter to be present, whether the witness speaks Portuguese or not, and with the potential for disclosure of details should the case be archived again. Hardly a fun time.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 12:34:46 PM
I can think of more than one reason why a source would wish to remain anonymous, and more than one reason why Mr Hall would not name his source, even if his source was OK with being named.
I am aware of more than 1 person in the area who has snippets of info re the case, but the general attitude is they do not wish to get involved. Hence any contribution would need to be anonymous.
You've seen the mill any significant witness goes through. Named, hauled to Faro, exposed to the media, questioned by the PJ using questions constructed by OG, OG sitting in, the need for an interpreter to be present, whether the witness speaks Portuguese or not, and with the potential for disclosure of details should the case be archived again. Hardly a fun time.
True.
However, I've also seen how numerous people who just happened to be near or in PdL, or who had some contact with the McCanns or the broader T7 group either then or at any point since then, have had their private / professional lives scrutinised in minute detail by so-called armchair detectives.
What could be so personally invasive concerning a weather report?
Making insinuations about FB contacts or publishing their family / friends photos seems to be in a different league.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 01:20:56 PM
However, I've also seen how numerous people who just happened to be near or in PdL, or who had some contact with the McCanns or the broader T7 group either then or at any point since then, have had their private / professional lives scrutinised in minute detail by so-called armchair detectives.
What could be so personally invasive concerning a weather report?
Making insinuations about FB contacts or publishing their family / friends photos seems to be in a different league.
Should such a source surface and demonstrate data in stark contrast to the McCanns, such a person would presumably enter into mighty conflict with the McCanns, and would definitely have the spotlight shone on them by the media.
There are some people here who think their life has suffered enough in the last 9 years, and simply wish to get on with the quiet life they had before.
Hopefully, I can forestall any snide remark on the sentence above by pointing out that those not resident in the area have not carried the burden imposed on this locale through no fault of their own.
Finally, the few opinions I have gathered from people resident at the time happen to be, so far, 100% anti-McCann (as opposed to neutral or pro-McCann). I haven't kept a score of the scurrilous anti-McCann rumours that can be attributed to such locals. I can think of two off the top of my head, where I'm fairly confident I know the person involved.
The weather chart could be a third such instance. I don't particularly care, to be honest.
The weather chart, if genuine, is extremely poorly constructed. The weather chart, if fake, is extremely poorly constructed. I happen to be of the opinion it is a fake.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 01:35:01 PM
Should such a source surface and demonstrate data in stark contrast to the McCanns, such a person would presumably enter into mighty conflict with the McCanns, and would definitely have the spotlight shone on them by the media.
There are some people here who think their life has suffered enough in the last 9 years, and simply wish to get on with the quiet life they had before.
Hopefully, I can forestall any snide remark on the sentence above by pointing out that those not resident in the area have not carried the burden imposed on this locale through no fault of their own.
Finally, the few opinions I have gathered from people resident at the time happen to be, so far, 100% anti-McCann (as opposed to neutral or pro-McCann). I haven't kept a score of the scurrilous anti-McCann rumours that can be attributed to such locals. I can think of two off the top of my head, where I'm fairly confident I know the person involved.
The weather chart could be a third such instance. I don't particularly care, to be honest.
The weather chart, if genuine, is extremely poorly constructed. The weather chart, if fake, is extremely poorly constructed. I happen to be of the opinion it is a fake.
This is supposed to be an authentic weather report from PdL in a so-called fact-based documentary. How does that work?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 01:56:17 PM
This is supposed to be an authentic weather report from PdL in a so-called fact-based documentary. How does that work?
The Crimewatch 2013 special was supposed to be a serious, fact based programme. Again, I have not tracked all of the major and minor errors so here is just one of each.
Minor. On the first day the McCanns arrive in Luz with Madeleine going ahead and the parents bring up the rear, pushing the twins in a double buggy. The McCanns did not have a double buggy at that time. If they had, perhaps they would have used the Millennium more, making 'planned abduction' much less probable.
Major. Smithman came down Primary School Street and was then seen heading towards the sea. No, he wasn't. He was last seen 2m to Aoife's left when she had reached the top of the Street of Little Stairs. That allowed Aoife to look left and see him face on. If the man had headed towards the sea, she would have seen his right profile.
Why did a supposedly serious Crimewatch get such information wrong? To answer that would take me into the realms of speculation, so I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2016, 02:17:50 PM
The Crimewatch 2013 special was supposed to be a serious, fact based programme. Again, I have not tracked all of the major and minor errors so here is just one of each.
Minor. On the first day the McCanns arrive in Luz with Madeleine going ahead and the parents bring up the rear, pushing the twins in a double buggy. The McCanns did not have a double buggy at that time. If they had, perhaps they would have used the Millennium more, making 'planned abduction' much less probable.
Major. Smithman came down Primary School Street and was then seen heading towards the sea. No, he wasn't. He was last seen 2m to Aoife's left when she had reached the top of the Street of Little Stairs. That allowed Aoife to look left and see him face on. If the man had headed towards the sea, she would have seen his right profile.
Why did a supposedly serious Crimewatch get such information wrong? To answer that would take me into the realms of speculation, so I'll leave it at that.
Neither of these social led errors are of any importance whatsoever
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 03, 2016, 02:23:58 PM
strange how if...that photo was took on the Wednesday...
they are wearing the same clothes as the day they arrived...both Maddie and twin
Quite.
Carana wrote:
QUOTE
Whoever posted notes (Albym?) seems to have noted quite a few photos of Madeleine.
The pink tracksuit one is noted as being taken on 2 May, but I'm not sure where that information came from.
The "playground man" pic was taken that day, according to Bruno Press. http://www.brunopress.nl/bin/Brunopress.dll/go?a=disp&t=sr-loadersearch.html&searchtext=madeleine+mccann+2007
(p. 8 - ref 01256702 and 01256698)
If so, there must have been a bit of sunshine poking through at some point on Wed pm.
There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that these three photographs were taken late afternoon, Saturday 28th April:
1) Playground photo - Madeleine playing with Madeleine 2) and 3) Madeleine by the Wendy House.
As xtina says, we have the similarities of clothing worn by three people in shot with what they were wearing in the plane journey earlier that day. Plus the scenes, shadows, weather etc. are all wholly consistent with what the McCanns say about their first day (NOTE: Apart from Madeleine allegedly jumping straight into a cold pool).
That only leaves us with two other highly disputed photos of Madelene that week:
1. The Last Photo 2. The Tennis Balls Photo.
Referring back to Carana's post:
A. Albym's note about the photos being on Wednesday is clearly wrong, probably based on something he read elsewhere
B. The Bruno Press were also clearly wrong
C. So was First Magazine wrong to publish false claims by the Boyds that their boy Louie was 'playing football with Madeleine for over an hour', they were whizzing down the waterslide together [there was no waterslide there and Wednesday was cold and rainy anyway]m and that Mrs Boyd and Kate had a chat together.
Putting 2 and 2 together and making 4, it looks as though very early on someone was pushing false information about these three Saturday photos into the media
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 02:31:08 PM
for those that haven't realised the fixation with the weather is aimed at debunking hall's video
Oh I rather think he had done that himself partway through Reel 1 before making any proper mention of weather. The central column of his edifice appears to be sitting on a pocket of running sand.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 03:57:54 PM
The Crimewatch 2013 special was supposed to be a serious, fact based programme. Again, I have not tracked all of the major and minor errors so here is just one of each.
Minor. On the first day the McCanns arrive in Luz with Madeleine going ahead and the parents bring up the rear, pushing the twins in a double buggy. The McCanns did not have a double buggy at that time. If they had, perhaps they would have used the Millennium more, making 'planned abduction' much less probable.
Major. Smithman came down Primary School Street and was then seen heading towards the sea. No, he wasn't. He was last seen 2m to Aoife's left when she had reached the top of the Street of Little Stairs. That allowed Aoife to look left and see him face on. If the man had headed towards the sea, she would have seen his right profile.
Why did a supposedly serious Crimewatch get such information wrong? To answer that would take me into the realms of speculation, so I'll leave it at that.
Wasn't the Crimewatch programme to jog people's memories?
The latest Richard Hall epic seems to be of a different nature.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 03, 2016, 04:24:08 PM
Isn't it strange, the last photo of Madeleine by the pool has been shown for years, yet no one who holidayed at the same time as the McCann's have ever said 'hey how come their wearing sun glasses and sun hats, the weather was over cast that day' only some conspiracy 'researchers' seem to have come up with the idea that the sun wasn't shining. As to it being cold late in the evening, that happens in Britain, it can be a lovely sunny day then turn cold towards night. All this nonsense of they said it was cold and they said that they had to wear more clothes. they were eating OUTSIDE for gods sake. It's all just to make out Madeleine wasn't alive that week, total lunacy.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 03, 2016, 04:32:11 PM
Probably anyone who was holidaying at the same time is now keeping their head well down and saying nothing.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 04:33:20 PM
Wasn't the Crimewatch programme to jog people's memories?
The latest Richard Hall epic seems to be of a different nature.
I am wary of trying to summarise other people's theories, as it is so easy to make a mistake.
However, I understand the gist of is it he thinks there is no solid evidence that Madeleine was alive after Sun 29 Apr. I am not sure if Mr Hall actually thinks Madeleine is dead. And if he does, I am not sure he has an opinion as to precisely when Madeleine died. He appears simply to be peeling off evidence that supports Madeleine being alive after that, and explaining why there may be doubts about the credibility of such evidence.
I would prefer not to discuss Mr Hall's overall theory again, firstly because I am not here as a proxy for Mr Hall, and secondly because I have no intention of becoming an 'expert' on Mr Hall's 4hr DVD.
There are certain aspects appearing in the DVD that intrigue me, and that I am at a loss to explain at the moment. The emergence of The Last Photo on 24 May deserves deeper consideration than relying on an implicit trust in the McCanns. (I do hope no one is going to make the mistake of saying this makes me a 'sceptic'.)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2016, 04:40:37 PM
And since the question was about why a serious programme might makes errors, also totally irrelevant.
So called errors it should have read The film showed the McCanns goi g to the millennium and a man carrying a child The film makers did not expect a bunch of armchair detectives to dissect every minute detail The errors as you see them are tota tally unimportant A better explanation if you do not agree
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 03, 2016, 04:42:15 PM
Probably anyone who was holidaying at the same time is now keeping their head well down and saying nothing.
No one said anything when the photo came out, surely anyone living around that area would have spotted the fact that Gerry had sunglasses on and the children were wearing sun hats? It would look suspicious if the day the photo was taken was actually cold and cloudy wouldn't it.
If they said something now then no doubt they would be liars or in cahoots with the McCann's.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 04:45:36 PM
Probably anyone who was holidaying at the same time is now keeping their head well down and saying nothing.
I am aware of one fairly recent attempt to obtain some very innocuous information via such a route, but it looks like head down mode exists outside of Luz too.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 04:46:58 PM
Is there any particular reason why Hall couldn't phrase the title in standard English?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 05:00:33 PM
So called errors it should have read The film showed the McCanns goi g to the millennium and a man carrying a child The film makers did not expect a bunch of armchair detectives to dissect every minute detail The errors as you see them are tota tally unimportant A better explanation if you do not agree
Errors.
The film never showed the McCanns going to the Millennium. I cannot think why the fact that the McCanns went to the Millennium twice has any relevance whatsoever to Crimewatch 2013.
The film makers should have realised that multiple forums go over the case in considerable detail. As to whether the film makers cared, I cannot possibly answer.
I have given examples of errors. I have explained why the buggy tale matters.
I can't remember if I explained Smithman but here is the shortest version I can manage. Smithman got widely publicised in Portugal around Amaral's book as the key sighting. Smithman got widely publicised in Portugal around Crimewatch time as THE new suspect wanted by OG. If Smithman actually recognised himself (which I doubt) then the widely publicised tale of him heading to the beach or the sea is a key piece of misinformation to persuade Smithman he could not be the man, assuming he did not head to the beach.
You appear to be saying putting out accurate information in a reconstruction does not matter. I find that incredible. I hold a different opinion.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 03, 2016, 05:48:30 PM
Isn't it strange, the last photo of Madeleine by the pool has been shown for years, yet no one who holidayed at the same time as the McCann's have ever said 'hey how come their wearing sun glasses and sun hats, the weather was over cast that day' only some conspiracy 'researchers' seem to have come up with the idea that the sun wasn't shining. As to it being cold late in the evening, that happens in Britain, it can be a lovely sunny day then turn cold towards night. All this nonsense of they said it was cold and they said that they had to wear more clothes. they were eating OUTSIDE for gods sake. It's all just to make out Madeleine wasn't alive that week, total lunacy.
1) Don't worry about it! The Time Life photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in his back yard is being argued about 52 years on.
2) Errm, err, um, like probably.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 06:05:57 PM
The anecdotal evidence from people who were actually in Praia da Luz on the day in question stating there was an improvement in the weather swings it for me.
I think it would be fair to say that both the anecdotal evidence from people in Praia da Luz on that day (Thursday 3 May) and any reliable weather date we have for that day broadly coincide. I think we can probably agree the following:
1. There had been cooler, cloudier conditions on the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
2. During the course of Thursday, these cooler, cloudier conditions gradually yielded to warmer, sunnier weather in the late afternoon/early evening.
3. That Last Photo is said to have been taken at 2.29pm Portugal/GB time.
4. Around 1pm, the temperature peaked at only 17C (63F), then fell back a little, then rose late afternoon to 19F (66C).
5. Cloud cover probably abated gradually during the day.
6. It is quite possible that there could have been a sunny interval causing the sun to shine at 2.29pm that afternoon.
7. It was unarguably warm and sunny on the Sunday, with a temperature maximum around 2.29pm of 21C (70F).
------------
However, whether the sun was actually shining at 2.29pm is essentially beside the point.
The Last Photo is evidence. It is a genuine, unphotoshopped, photo.
A dispute has arisen as to whether it might have been taken on a different day.
We are entitled, inter alia, to examine the contents of the photograph to see which date best fits what we see. I appreciate that the EXIF metadata say it was taken on 3 May, but then we know it is a relatively simple issue to alter the metadata.
This is what we see in the photograph:
* Gerry in shorts * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry with sunglasses * Gerry with sheen of perspiration on his forehead * Gerry with his feet in a cold pool * Madeleine in light clothing - no trousers * Madeleine with sun-hat * Amelie in light clothing - no trousers * Amelie with sun-hat * No sign of any cooling breeze.
Also:
1. Although it was claimed that Gerry bought sunglasses at the beach on Tuesday, it is surely more likely than not that he brought a pair of sunglasses with him on holiday.
2. The 'Last Photo' scene of Gerry and his two children by the pool on a sunny day was actually embellished in the BBC Crimewatch McCann Special, which showed Gerry, Kate and Madeleine happily kicking their feet in the water.
Now, I am fully aware that on this forum there are some people who are very well informed and briefed.
The very same people are good, persistent debaters who generally give no quarter.
I respect their knowledge and abilities.
However, given the information we have about the Last Photo, and given what we know about the likely weather at 2.29pm on Sunday and Thursday respectively, no matter how hard people may try and get round the situation, it is inevitable that many people, examining the evidence impartially, may well draw the conclusion that it is far more likely than not that the Last Photo was taken on the Sunday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 03, 2016, 06:58:14 PM
The Crimewatch 2013 special was supposed to be a serious, fact based programme. Again, I have not tracked all of the major and minor errors so here is just one of each.
Minor. On the first day the McCanns arrive in Luz with Madeleine going ahead and the parents bring up the rear, pushing the twins in a double buggy. The McCanns did not have a double buggy at that time. If they had, perhaps they would have used the Millennium more, making 'planned abduction' much less probable.
Major. Smithman came down Primary School Street and was then seen heading towards the sea. No, he wasn't. He was last seen 2m to Aoife's left when she had reached the top of the Street of Little Stairs. That allowed Aoife to look left and see him face on. If the man had headed towards the sea, she would have seen his right profile.
Why did a supposedly serious Crimewatch get such information wrong? To answer that would take me into the realms of speculation, so I'll leave it at that.
Could you clarify for us how these two errors in the programme may have prevented someone watching from coming forward with information that may have been relevant to the investigation?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 03, 2016, 07:03:46 PM
I suppose another point is that talk of 'errors' supposes that the files we read (on line) are, themselves, accurate.
We have absolutely no gauge of that.
The original investigative team have the original, source, material.
We may be second-guessing accurate information held be the investigative team ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2016, 07:04:36 PM
I think it would be fair to say that both the anecdotal evidence from people in Praia da Luz on that day (Thursday 3 May) and any reliable weather date we have for that day broadly coincide. I think we can probably agree the following:
1. There had been cooler, cloudier conditions on the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
2. During the course of Thursday, these cooler, cloudier conditions gradually yielded to warmer, sunnier weather in the late afternoon/early evening.
3. That Last Photo is said to have been taken at 2.29pm Portugal/GB time.
4. Around 1pm, the temperature peaked at only 17C (63F), then fell back a little, then rose late afternoon to 19F (66C).
5. Cloud cover probably abated gradually during the day.
6. It is quite possible that there could have been a sunny interval causing the sun to shine at 2.29pm that afternoon.
7. It was unarguably warm and sunny on the Sunday, with a temperature maximum around 2.29pm of 21C (70F).
------------
However, whether the sun was actually shining at 2.29pm is essentially beside the point.
The Last Photo is evidence. It is a genuine, unphotoshopped, photo.
A dispute has arisen as to whether it might have been taken on a different day.
We are entitled, inter alia, to examine the contents of the photograph to see which date best fits what we see. I appreciate that the EXIF metadata say it was taken on 3 May, but then we know it is a relatively simple issue to alter the metadata.
This is what we see in the photograph:
* Gerry in shorts * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry with sunglasses * Gerry with sheen of perspiration on his forehead * Gerry with his feet in a cold pool * Madeleine in light clothing - no trousers * Madeleine with sun-hat * Amelie in light clothing - no trousers * Amelie with sun-hat * No sign of any cooling breeze.
Also:
1. Although it was claimed that Gerry bought sunglasses at the beach on Tuesday, it is surely more likely than not that he brought a pair of sunglasses with him on holiday.
2. The 'Last Photo' scene of Gerry and his two children by the pool on a sunny day was actually embellished in the BBC Crimewatch McCann Special, which showed Gerry, Kate and Madeleine happily kicking their feet in the water.
Now, I am fully aware that on this forum there are some people who are very well informed and briefed.
The very same people are good, persistent debaters who generally give no quarter.
I respect their knowledge and abilities.
However, given the information we have about the Last Photo, and given what we know about the likely weather at 2.29pm on Sunday and Thursday respectively, no matter how hard people may try and get round the situation, it is inevitable that many people, examining the evidence impartially, may well draw the conclusion that it is far more likely than not that the Last Photo was taken on the Sunday.
Why is it more likely Gerry brought sun glasses with him? because you want to dismiss that he bought sun glasses on the Tuesday, from my experiences with my husband, it is very likely that Gerry forgot to take his sunglasses with him.
Gerry with a sheen of perspiration on his forehead, you know this how? It could be sunscreen. Madeleine's shoulder is shining is that perspiration, I would think that is sunscreen
I have no doubts what so ever that it is sunny on the Thursday and that was the last photograph taken of Madeleine. Why on earth would they say it was the last photograph taken of Madeleine on the Thursday she disappeared if it wasn't a sunny day and people would know that it wasn't a sunny day and say so?
,
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2016, 07:17:49 PM
I think it would be fair to say that both the anecdotal evidence from people in Praia da Luz on that day (Thursday 3 May) and any reliable weather date we have for that day broadly coincide. I think we can probably agree the following:
1. There had been cooler, cloudier conditions on the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
2. During the course of Thursday, these cooler, cloudier conditions gradually yielded to warmer, sunnier weather in the late afternoon/early evening.
3. That Last Photo is said to have been taken at 2.29pm Portugal/GB time.
4. Around 1pm, the temperature peaked at only 17C (63F), then fell back a little, then rose late afternoon to 19F (66C).
5. Cloud cover probably abated gradually during the day.
6. It is quite possible that there could have been a sunny interval causing the sun to shine at 2.29pm that afternoon.
7. It was unarguably warm and sunny on the Sunday, with a temperature maximum around 2.29pm of 21C (70F).
------------
However, whether the sun was actually shining at 2.29pm is essentially beside the point.
The Last Photo is evidence. It is a genuine, unphotoshopped, photo.
A dispute has arisen as to whether it might have been taken on a different day.
We are entitled, inter alia, to examine the contents of the photograph to see which date best fits what we see. I appreciate that the EXIF metadata say it was taken on 3 May, but then we know it is a relatively simple issue to alter the metadata.
This is what we see in the photograph:
* Gerry in shorts * Gerry in T-shirt * Gerry with sunglasses * Gerry with sheen of perspiration on his forehead * Gerry with his feet in a cold pool * Madeleine in light clothing - no trousers * Madeleine with sun-hat * Amelie in light clothing - no trousers * Amelie with sun-hat * No sign of any cooling breeze.
Also:
1. Although it was claimed that Gerry bought sunglasses at the beach on Tuesday, it is surely more likely than not that he brought a pair of sunglasses with him on holiday.
2. The 'Last Photo' scene of Gerry and his two children by the pool on a sunny day was actually embellished in the BBC Crimewatch McCann Special, which showed Gerry, Kate and Madeleine happily kicking their feet in the water.
Now, I am fully aware that on this forum there are some people who are very well informed and briefed.
The very same people are good, persistent debaters who generally give no quarter.
I respect their knowledge and abilities.
However, given the information we have about the Last Photo, and given what we know about the likely weather at 2.29pm on Sunday and Thursday respectively, no matter how hard people may try and get round the situation, it is inevitable that many people, examining the evidence impartially, may well draw the conclusion that it is far more likely than not that the Last Photo was taken on the Sunday.
I don't see how you have managed to jump from the points that you've listed (some of which are obvious, e.g. what Gerry and Amelie / Madeleine were wearing in the photo) to your conclusion that "it is far more likely than not that the Last Photo was taken on the Sunday".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 07:31:15 PM
Could you clarify for us how these two errors in the programme may have prevented someone watching from coming forward with information that may have been relevant to the investigation?
The first error does not.
The second error says Smithman has to stick his head in the noose, saying he is the guilty party. Of being there at the time. Then he has to prove that he is innocent. That he has some reason for being there, at that time, with a child.
He has to prove his innocence. Hardly likely to bring Smithman forward.
Crimewatch 2013, within Portugal, was a disaster. Perhaps it went better in other countries.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 03, 2016, 07:41:54 PM
The second error says Smithman has to stick his head in the noose, saying he is the guilty party. Of being there at the time. Then he has to prove that he is innocent. That he has some reason for being there, at that time, with a child.
He has to prove his innocence. Hardly likely to bring Smithman forward.
Crimewatch 2013, within Portugal, was a disaster. Perhaps it went better in other countries.
I'm sorry, you've completely lost me. Why would someone not come forward because of this error, specifically? If the reconstruction had shown him in the position you think it should have shown him why would that make someone more likely to come forward, and why would they not be "sticking head in noose" in that case also?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 03, 2016, 09:12:25 PM
I'm sorry, you've completely lost me. Why would someone not come forward because of this error, specifically? If the reconstruction had shown him in the position you think it should have shown him why would that make someone more likely to come forward, and why would they not be "sticking head in noose" in that case also?
OK, let's try simpler.
Smithman has 'got away with it' for 9 years.
Why come forward now and say, I am your prime suspect.
Not exactly the motivation Smithman needs to step into the limelight.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 03, 2016, 10:11:57 PM
Why come forward now and say, I am your prime suspect.
Not exactly the motivation Smithman needs to step into the limelight.
that really doesn't address my question regarding the error of his physical position in the reconstruction. what you seem to be suggesting now is that the reconstruction was pointless regardless of the errors as it would have put Smithman off from coming forward, or at least that's how it seems but you're not making yourself very clear.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 04, 2016, 12:41:12 AM
Why come forward now and say, I am your prime suspect.
Not exactly the motivation Smithman needs to step into the limelight.
I imagine that police investigations, even into cold cases, can sometimes be solved by information given to them by members of the public. One individual may be in possession of a fact which might be trivial in itself but which, unknown to that individual slots neatly into place in an overall picture.
I accept what you say about the gross violation the release of the McCann files into the public domain had of making people think twice about the lack of confidentiality of witness statements.
I am puzzled about your claim that there are individuals in Luz and the environs who are so resentful of the 'McCann effect' that they are prepared to sit on information which may be of assistance to the present investigation.
Bearing in mind if they have any such information ... logic dictates they had it in 2007 when it really mattered ... or that some suspicion has been raised in their minds by events or an individual in the intervening period.
A child is missing, and has been for nine years and as far as I can see you have detailed that sheer bloody mindedness about the inconvenience and bad publicity generated as a result has led to people who have information to refuse to divulge it.
I doubt if any amount of appeals for information, however perfectly presented, would have any effect at all on these despicable people and their inexcusable refusal to divulge their snippet of information which for all they know might be crucial.
Apparently there have been no repercussions against the innocent dad seen by Jane Tanner. Why therefore should an innocent Smithman have any fear about recognising and identifying himself?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 04, 2016, 01:01:07 AM
I used to think Smithman must be the abductor because otherwise he would have come forward.
However, having learned of the interrogation methods of the PJ - especially Tavares and Amaral, I do wonder whether this man was indeed an innocent father who had picked his child up - say from his mother's for instance and was simply carrying her home. Would he want to come forward - or would he decide he wasn't going to risk it - because he knew the reputation of the PJ - and he knew all about the Cipriano case?
Normally one would expect the family of that child to be ringing the PJ saying - 'No that was my son picking his daughter up from my house - I'd been babysitting' - or even his wife saying ' No that was my husband collecting our daughter from his moms.' However if they were frightened of what might happen to their son/husband - once he got inside a police station - then IMO they were far more likely to say 'No - keep out of it - or they might decide it was you'
The fact that Mrs Murat had a table set up specifically because she knew people were scared to go to the police with info backs up that possibility imo.
The more time that passed the harder it would be to come forward IMO.
I'm not claiming that is what happened but I'm sure it was a possibility which SY would not have dismissed out of hand.
I do wonder if there are other locals - who even if they did have info - decided not to get involved for the same reason.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 04, 2016, 01:43:04 AM
I used to think Smithman must be the abductor because otherwise he would have come forward.
However, having learned of the interrogation methods of the PJ - especially Tavares and Amaral, I do wonder whether this man was indeed an innocent father who had picked his child up - say from his mother's for instance and was simply carrying her home. Would he want to come forward - or would he decide he wasn't going to risk it - because he knew the reputation of the PJ - and he knew all about the Cipriano case?
Normally one would expect the family of that child to be ringing the PJ saying - 'No that was my son picking his daughter up from my house - I'd been babysitting' - or even his wife saying ' No that was my husband collecting our daughter from his moms.' However if they were frightened of what might happen to their son/husband - once he got inside a police station - then IMO they were far more likely to say 'No - keep out of it - or they might decide it was you'
The fact that Mrs Murat had a table set up specifically because she knew people were scared to go to the police with info backs up that possibility imo.
The more time that passed the harder it would be to come forward IMO.
I'm not claiming that is what happened but I'm sure it was a possibility which SY would not have dismissed out of hand.
I do wonder if there are other locals - who even if they did have info - decided not to get involved for the same reason.
There seems to be few statements volunteered by ex-pats in full time residency and other locals without direct association with MW in the files. I thought that was simply because they hadn't seen anything worth relaying to the police.
Perhaps real fear of the police was the reason??? A great pity, because they were better placed to notice unusual behaviour or strangers than the holidaymakers who did volunteer such information.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 04, 2016, 01:47:43 AM
Nothing strange about that IMO...in the UK you can report a crime and get investigated yourself...imagne saying it was you with another child NOT the abducted one....I mean just doing yiur shopping in a supermarket on a weekend with your child who looks a little like MM can have you down in the labs getting your dnas extracted!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 04, 2016, 02:23:53 AM
There seems to be few statements volunteered by ex-pats in full time residency and other locals without direct association with MW in the files. I thought that was simply because they hadn't seen anything worth relaying to the police.
Perhaps real fear of the police was the reason??? A great pity, because they were better placed to notice unusual behaviour or strangers than the holidaymakers who did volunteer such information.
The impression I used to have is that PdL was practically 'closed' by 10 o'clock at night. IIRC it was ShininginLuz who told us that this was not the case and that bars, clubs and restaurants were all in full flow' It just seems strange to me that if that was the case no-one except the Smiths saw anything which might have been worth telling the police about. However, it they were aware of the PJ's reputation - that would be a credible explanation for deciding it was best not to get involved.
p.s Apols to SIL if I've got that wrong.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 04:16:55 AM
that really doesn't address my question regarding the error of his physical position in the reconstruction. what you seem to be suggesting now is that the reconstruction was pointless regardless of the errors as it would have put Smithman off from coming forward, or at least that's how it seems but you're not making yourself very clear.
The recon wasn't pointless regardless of the errors.
The recon rendered the Smithman part pointless, because of the error. Or even worse. Smithman headed to the sea, according to Crimewatch.
So if you vaguely thought you might have passed the Smiths that night, but you know for certain you did not head to the sea, would you enter the lions' den? Or would you just think - nah, can't be me, I never headed to the sea?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 04:50:30 AM
I imagine that police investigations, even into cold cases, can sometimes be solved by information given to them by members of the public. One individual may be in possession of a fact which might be trivial in itself but which, unknown to that individual slots neatly into place in an overall picture.
I accept what you say about the gross violation the release of the McCann files into the public domain had of making people think twice about the lack of confidentiality of witness statements.
I am puzzled about your claim that there are individuals in Luz and the environs who are so resentful of the 'McCann effect' that they are prepared to sit on information which may be of assistance to the present investigation.
Bearing in mind if they have any such information ... logic dictates they had it in 2007 when it really mattered ... or that some suspicion has been raised in their minds by events or an individual in the intervening period.
A child is missing, and has been for nine years and as far as I can see you have detailed that sheer bloody mindedness about the inconvenience and bad publicity generated as a result has led to people who have information to refuse to divulge it.
I doubt if any amount of appeals for information, however perfectly presented, would have any effect at all on these despicable people and their inexcusable refusal to divulge their snippet of information which for all they know might be crucial.
Apparently there have been no repercussions against the innocent dad seen by Jane Tanner. Why therefore should an innocent Smithman have any fear about recognising and identifying himself?
I did not follow the case until it became clear that OG was about to dig up central Luz, say May 2014. So I am hazy about what went on before then.
AFAIK certain factions of the public turned against the McCanns early on, partly on the basis of child neglect, partly on the basis of dodgy stories emanating from Team McCann, partly from behavioural analysis. I don't want to debate any of these points. I'm saying simply that there are those now who condemn the McCanns on this type of basis, and there were then.
Innocent dad 1) does not appear to have come forward, rather he appears to have been dredged up by OG, 2) he had a ready made alibi, namely his child was in the crèche that night, 3) he was dealt with by OG, who washed his details to preserve his family's anonymity and 4) he was English speaking dealing with English speakers under English law. All cute and cuddly, if possibly it involved a long bureaucratic process.
Smithman is going to get a much rougher deal, unless he is English and he steps forward. Since at Dec 2015, SY said Smithman was still a person of interest, I am going to discount the idea that he has come forward.
Smithman has no pre-fabricated alibi. He cannot claim his child was in the OC crèche. He has to manufacture his own. By that, I mean he is required to prove his innocence. This appears to be an idea that most McCann supporters rail against, but the simple fact is Smithman will have to provide proof that he is not involved. Perhaps Smithman can, because he has a strong alibi, and perhaps he can't because he cannot provide strong verification of his innocence.
Whichever it is, Smithman would undergo trial by ordeal. He is clearly guilty of the heinous crime of carrying a child through the streets of Luz on 3 May 2007, therefore he is required to prove the child was not Madeleine.
If anyone thinks an innocent Smithman, who miraculously recognises himself despite the misinformation, despite being labelled as the SUSPECT, is now going to volunteer himself under these circumstances - I can only say I beg to differ, it is not going to happen this way.
Crimewatch 2013 was a bit of a disaster in Portugal, IMO. I am not going to blame OG, because I have no clear idea of the details of the deal they have with the Portuguese judicial authorities. If that Crimewatch had been aired in Portugal, things might have been somewhat better.
Despite reinforcing the notion that the witnesses had Smithman heading to the sea.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 05:24:33 AM
The impression I used to have is that PdL was practically 'closed' by 10 o'clock at night. IIRC it was ShininginLuz who told us that this was not the case and that bars, clubs and restaurants were all in full flow' It just seems strange to me that if that was the case no-one except the Smiths saw anything which might have been worth telling the police about. However, it they were aware of the PJ's reputation - that would be a credible explanation for deciding it was best not to get involved.
p.s Apols to SIL if I've got that wrong.
The attached graphic is a bit out of date now but it is still over 95% accurate.
It is a map of Luz commercial establishments and it applies specifically to the period 8:30pm to 10:30pm on Thu 3 May 2007.
The bits with a letter in are in the PJ files and are 100% known to be open that night e.g. the Mirage, the Dolphin, the Duke, Kelly's.
The bits in green are commercial establishments know to be closed at the time e.g. Baptista supermarket shut at 8:00pm, so it should not have been generating any traffic half an hour later.
The bits in white are 'dunnos'. For example, I know the Italian restaurant called Amicis (Friends), just N of the OG dig of Luz, opened in 2007 and its hours/days open mean it would have been open on a Thursday at the relevant time. What I don't know is whether Amicis had opened by 3 May 2007, or whether it opened later in the season, so it gets a 'dunno'.
The bits in yellow are ones that existed, and that should have been open, according to best info on them. 'Should have' does not equal definitely were, hence they get a yellow. Examples are the 2 Chinese restaurants operating at the time (City Sol and Royal Gardens).
Like I said, I am now aware of minor tweaks required on this graphic, but the tweaks are definitely minor.
Was Luz heaving or was Luz quiet that night?
For various reasons, I believe most bars in Luz would be quiet that night. Kelly's definitely was. I can think of three that probably were not, but I cannot prove this.
The situation with restaurants is harder to predict. Since I cannot provide evidence on this, I shall not speculate.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 04, 2016, 07:32:42 AM
I did not follow the case until it became clear that OG was about to dig up central Luz, say May 2014. So I am hazy about what went on before then.
AFAIK certain factions of the public turned against the McCanns early on, partly on the basis of child neglect, partly on the basis of dodgy stories emanating from Team McCann, partly from behavioural analysis. I don't want to debate any of these points. I'm saying simply that there are those now who condemn the McCanns on this type of basis, and there were then.
Innocent dad 1) does not appear to have come forward, rather he appears to have been dredged up by OG, 2) he had a ready made alibi, namely his child was in the crèche that night, 3) he was dealt with by OG, who washed his details to preserve his family's anonymity and 4) he was English speaking dealing with English speakers under English law. All cute and cuddly, if possibly it involved a long bureaucratic process.
Smithman is going to get a much rougher deal, unless he is English and he steps forward. Since at Dec 2015, SY said Smithman was still a person of interest, I am going to discount the idea that he has come forward.
Smithman has no pre-fabricated alibi. He cannot claim his child was in the OC crèche. He has to manufacture his own. By that, I mean he is required to prove his innocence. This appears to be an idea that most McCann supporters rail against, but the simple fact is Smithman will have to provide proof that he is not involved. Perhaps Smithman can, because he has a strong alibi, and perhaps he can't because he cannot provide strong verification of his innocence.
Whichever it is, Smithman would undergo trial by ordeal. He is clearly guilty of the heinous crime of carrying a child through the streets of Luz on 3 May 2007, therefore he is required to prove the child was not Madeleine.
If anyone thinks an innocent Smithman, who miraculously recognises himself despite the misinformation, despite being labelled as the SUSPECT, is now going to volunteer himself under these circumstances - I can only say I beg to differ, it is not going to happen this way.
Crimewatch 2013 was a bit of a disaster in Portugal, IMO. I am not going to blame OG, because I have no clear idea of the details of the deal they have with the Portuguese judicial authorities. If that Crimewatch had been aired in Portugal, things might have been somewhat better.
Despite reinforcing the notion that the witnesses had Smithman heading to the sea.
your posts are showing your strong anti mccann bias in this case....when you talk of why the portuguese suspect the mccanns you fail to mention the lies told by amaral and the pj....that is a major...major omission and proves your bias...even if you are not aware of it...but I think you are
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 07:49:56 AM
your posts are showing your strong anti mccann bias in this case....when you talk of why the portuguese suspect the mccanns you fail to mention the lies told by amaral and the pj....that is a major...major omission and proves your bias...even if you are not aware of it...but I think you are
Total and utter rubbish.
I would be more than happy to discuss the case with the McCanns, in a friendly and civil environment. And I have explained recently where I would be happy to stand alongside Team McCann.
This was drivel, Davel.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 04, 2016, 07:54:41 AM
your posts are showing your strong anti mccann bias in this case....when you talk of why the portuguese suspect the mccanns you fail to mention the lies told by amaral and the pj....that is a major...major omission and proves your bias...even if you are not aware of it...but I think you are
I'm not at all surprised that some Portuguese suspect the McCanns - as imo the same smear campaign was conducted against them as against Leonor Cipriano - which in her case resulted in a baying mob turning up at the court.
I wonder how many people still believe the McCanns and their friends were 'swingers'? A disgusting smear which is still being claimed by some as a fact - 9 years later.
Mud sticks.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 07:54:55 AM
No one said anything when the photo came out, surely anyone living around that area would have spotted the fact that Gerry had sunglasses on and the children were wearing sun hats? It would look suspicious if the day the photo was taken was actually cold and cloudy wouldn't it.
If they said something now then no doubt they would be liars or in cahoots with the McCann's.
no one said it was cold ....
don't forget it was three weeks before the photo was released
No one said anything when the photo came out, surely anyone living around that area would have spotted the fact that Gerry had sunglasses on and the children were wearing sun hats? It would look suspicious if the day the photo was taken was actually cold and cloudy wouldn't it.
not if the photo had been taken on the Sunday ....
its obvious it was a hot day..when the photo was took
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 08:04:44 AM
I used to think Smithman must be the abductor because otherwise he would have come forward.
However, having learned of the interrogation methods of the PJ - especially Tavares and Amaral, I do wonder whether this man was indeed an innocent father who had picked his child up - say from his mother's for instance and was simply carrying her home. Would he want to come forward - or would he decide he wasn't going to risk it - because he knew the reputation of the PJ - and he knew all about the Cipriano case?
Normally one would expect the family of that child to be ringing the PJ saying - 'No that was my son picking his daughter up from my house - I'd been babysitting' - or even his wife saying ' No that was my husband collecting our daughter from his moms.' However if they were frightened of what might happen to their son/husband - once he got inside a police station - then IMO they were far more likely to say 'No - keep out of it - or they might decide it was you'
The fact that Mrs Murat had a table set up specifically because she knew people were scared to go to the police with info backs up that possibility imo.
The more time that passed the harder it would be to come forward IMO.
I'm not claiming that is what happened but I'm sure it was a possibility which SY would not have dismissed out of hand.
I do wonder if there are other locals - who even if they did have info - decided not to get involved for the same reason.
The fact that Mrs Murat had a table set up specifically because she knew people were scared to go to the police with info backs up that possibility imo.
i think common sense wise ....you would know Mrs Murat was there to translate for the Brits...to say they feared PJ is a bit OTT
as for the locals ....they never saw anything of the mccs ...how could they ....they never went anywhere ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 04, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
I would be more than happy to discuss the case with the McCanns, in a friendly and civil environment. And I have explained recently where I would be happy to stand alongside Team McCann.
This was drivel, Davel.
anyone who talks of why the portuguese suspect the mccanns and fails to mention the lies told by amaral and the pj...even when reminded...cannot be taken seriously.......you do your credibility no favours with your post
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 08:51:25 AM
anyone who talks of why the portuguese suspect the mccanns and fails to mention the lies told by amaral and the pj...even when reminded...cannot be taken seriously.......you do your credibility no favours with your post
Yet more total rubbish.
Who do you think I am? Person 1. Trying hard to present the arguments in favour and those against. Or Person 2. Trying hard to tell you the reality.
The reality is that opinion turned against the McCanns. Do I have to quote Kate's book, chapter 13, The Tide Turns.
I have given you a small insight into Luz as it is today, as I find it. If you think reality is otherwise, then over to you.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 04, 2016, 09:11:51 AM
The fact that Mrs Murat had a table set up specifically because she knew people were scared to go to the police with info backs up that possibility imo.
i think common sense wise ....you would know Mrs Murat was there to translate for the Brits...to say they feared PJ is a bit OTT
as for the locals ....they never saw anything of the mccs ...how could they ....they never went anywhere ...
I don't understand what you mean - are you saying Mrs Murat set up her table simply to translate for the Brits and it was not for people who may have info but who did not want to go to the police?
Can you elucidate please.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 09:13:44 AM
don't forget it was three weeks before the photo was released
No one said anything when the photo came out, surely anyone living around that area would have spotted the fact that Gerry had sunglasses on and the children were wearing sun hats? It would look suspicious if the day the photo was taken was actually cold and cloudy wouldn't it.
not if the photo had been taken on the Sunday ....
its obvious it was a hot day..when the photo was took
The photo was shown to be the last photo of Madeleine, surely people would look at that photo more intensely than if it was taken on the Sunday, Amaral for instance, then if the weather wasn't sunny at the time the photo was taken, then it would be suspicious wouldn't it?
I really cannot imagine the McCann's bringing out the last photo of Madeleine for all to see and saying it was the last photo of her taken on the 3rd of May the day she disappeared if it was not sunny and the photo was taken on the Sunday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 04, 2016, 09:21:11 AM
Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise. When we came back Jane was at the beach with the children, I recall that at some point around 17:00-17:30 Kate was out running she was dressed in her full running kit which was a vest and shorts- one item was grey and the other pale blue but I cannot say which way round. When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group.
It was a warm day, good afternoon I recall that I went up to the social tennis around 18:00hours with Matt I think David went to the apartment and then up to Gerry’s.
The photo was shown to be the last photo of Madeleine, surely people would look at that photo more intensely than if it was taken on the Sunday, Amaral for instance, then if the weather wasn't sunny at the time the photo was taken, then it would be suspicious wouldn't it?
I really cannot imagine the McCann's bringing out the last photo of Madeleine for all to see and saying it was the last photo of her taken on the 3rd of May the day she disappeared if it was not sunny and the photo was taken on the Sunday.
well causing confusement has always been the mccs aim ....
it was three weeks later it was shown out ..
.so there has to be a reason for that ....when they had it all the time...
and a very good likeness to maddie ....unlike the pic they gave that was of maddie very younger ...probably also to confuse...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 09:57:56 AM
well causing confusement has always been the mccs aim ....
it was three weeks later it was shown out ..
.so there has to be a reason for that ....when they had it all the time...
and a very good likeness to maddie ....unlike the pic they gave that was of maddie very younger ...probably also to confuse...
It wouldn't matter how much later it was shown, the fact is it was called the last photo of Madeleine taken on the 3rd of May which would cause interest and much more scrutiny.
The photo shows a side view of Madeleine and she is not straight faced, the police require a full face and nothing to obscure the details of the face.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 10:12:01 AM
It wouldn't matter how much later it was shown, the fact is it was called the last photo of Madeleine taken on the 3rd of May which would cause interest and much more scrutiny.
The photo shows a side view of Madeleine and she is not straight faced, the police require a full face and nothing to obscure the details of the face.
well i think you would find they would have asked for a recent photo ...
if we are speculating what they asked for ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 10:14:46 AM
why was maddie taken back to the creche.........
when all her other friends went to the beach...how sad must that have been for her
why after the sunday ...did the mccs eat alone...in there apartment
the picnic lunch at the Payne's apartment ...why was maddie/twins not took there
where was they seen anywhere ..as a family of 5..after sunday
there is very little info ..in police files...or k mccs book of what the mccs did with the children them six days ...only what they did....it makes you wonder why they tool maddie/twins at all
why did they bother taking a camera ...to take five photo,s
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 04, 2016, 10:24:31 AM
The whole arrangements seem a little odd. Only the McCann children attended all the creche sessions - the rest of the group appear to have spent some time with their offspring during the day.
You would think that even if the McCann adults wanted to be off doing their own thing on the afternoon of the 3rd, the others would have been happy for the McCann children to tag along with the rest of the group.
Why did the McCanns eat alone at lunch-time? - well only they came answer that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 04, 2016, 10:30:49 AM
Who do you think I am? Person 1. Trying hard to present the arguments in favour and those against. Or Person 2. Trying hard to tell you the reality.
The reality is that opinion turned against the McCanns. Do I have to quote Kate's book, chapter 13, The Tide Turns.
I have given you a small insight into Luz as it is today, as I find it. If you think reality is otherwise, then over to you.
I am well aware the tide turned Because of the lies told by amaral and the PJ Rather than refer to my post as rubbish why not answer the point raised Is it because you cannot The fact that you want to ignore the point destroys your credibility.... So carry on if you wish
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 04, 2016, 10:35:28 AM
It wouldn't matter how much later it was shown, the fact is it was called the last photo of Madeleine taken on the 3rd of May which would cause interest and much more scrutiny.
The photo shows a side view of Madeleine and she is not straight faced, the police require a full face and nothing to obscure the details of the face.
Are you confusing the police with the passport office?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 10:52:12 AM
when all her other friends went to the beach...how sad must that have been for her
why after the sunday ...did the mccs eat alone...in there apartment
the picnic lunch at the Payne's apartment ...why was maddie/twins not took there
where was they seen anywhere ..as a family of 5..after sunday
there is very little info ..in police files...or k mccs book of what the mccs did with the children them six days ...only what they did....it makes you wonder why they tool maddie/twins at all
why did they bother taking a camera ...to take five photo,s
The McCann's had booked tennis lessons. Fiona said that they were asked but they had other things on, another thing I noticed was that Fiona said Kate told her Sean didn't like the sand.
They found it easier to eat in their own apartment, they had twins as well as Madeleine and they had their own routine.
The children enjoyed themselves in the crèche, they had already had a holiday Easter time, it wasn't as if they hadn't seen the sea and sand before.
I see nothing wrong with the McCann's having some 'me' time, they worked hard and deserved it. The other alternative would have been to have left them at home, and that would have been hard work for a mother to deal with unless they split them up. There is nothing to say that the children didn't enjoy their holiday, they played with other children they went on outings etc. Madeleine looked very happy.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 11:28:21 AM
The McCann's had booked tennis lessons. Fiona said that they were asked but they had other things on, another thing I noticed was that Fiona said Kate told her Sean didn't like the sand.
They found it easier to eat in their own apartment, they had twins as well as Madeleine and they had their own routine.
The children enjoyed themselves in the crèche, they had already had a holiday Easter time, it wasn't as if they hadn't seen the sea and sand before.
I see nothing wrong with the McCann's having some 'me' time, they worked hard and deserved it. The other alternative would have been to have left them at home, and that would have been hard work for a mother to deal with unless they split them up. There is nothing to say that the children didn't enjoy their holiday, they played with other children they went on outings etc. Madeleine looked very happy.
The McCann's had booked tennis lessons. Fiona said that they were asked but they had other things on, another thing I noticed was that Fiona said Kate told her Sean didn't like the sand.
They found it easier to eat in their own apartment, they had twins as well as Madeleine and they had their own routine.
The children enjoyed themselves in the crèche, they had already had a holiday Easter time, it wasn't as if they hadn't seen the sea and sand before.
you know all this first hand do you ...
where does maddie look happy
fiona had other things on ....yes spending time with children while on holiday..thats what you do
they went as a group ...yet did things seperatly
the mcc children enjoyed themselves.they spent the day in the creche ...and the nights alone
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 12:33:31 PM
The McCann's had booked tennis lessons. Fiona said that they were asked but they had other things on, another thing I noticed was that Fiona said Kate told her Sean didn't like the sand.
They found it easier to eat in their own apartment, they had twins as well as Madeleine and they had their own routine.
The children enjoyed themselves in the crèche, they had already had a holiday Easter time, it wasn't as if they hadn't seen the sea and sand before.
you know all this first hand do you ...
where does maddie look happy
fiona had other things on ....yes spending time with children while on holiday..thats what you do
they went as a group ...yet did things seperatly
the mcc children enjoyed themselves.they spent the day in the creche ...and the nights alone
I know it from reading the statements.
Madeleine looked happy in all the photo's taken of her.
I said Kate and Gerry had other things on not Fiona, the McCann's did spend time with their children, they had a holiday at Easter before they went to Portugal, the holiday in Portugal was for the McCann's to have a break as well as the children.
They did things separately as the McCann's had their own routine, plus they had booked tennis lessons.
The McCann's enjoyed themselves playing with other children at the crèche and going on outings with the crèche and seeing their parents in between, playing in the children's playground etc. They spent the night asleep in their beds as all children do.
If you are trying to say that because the McCann's had a holiday that was for them as well as the children and this makes them out to be some nasty uncaring parents then you are mistaken. Madeleine was having fun at the crèche, after their trip to the beach with Kate and Gerry she asked to go back, she was practising for a dance that would have been performed on the Friday, but sadly didn't happen.
Madeleine was seen all that week, but nannies, friends, the cleaner, Mrs. Boyd and Mr. Edmonds are all either lying or mistaken, rubbish.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 12:47:45 PM
@ lac e
Madeleine looked happy in all the photo's taken of her.
ALL the photo's....they took four......over a period of six days.... 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2016, 12:49:04 PM
Are you confusing the police with the passport office?
Erm, then, erm, there’s a period of time where, where we didn’t search and, erm, we were trying to do things, you know, nearby, erm, one of the, one of the things we tried to do after the Police, the local GNR Police had arrived, was we tried to get, we tried to get the photograph, erm, Kate certainly had some on her camera, they were looking for one, you know, face on that was big enough rather than a, you know, a profile or something, so that took a little while, we then didn’t have any means of printing it and a lot of the MARK WARNER staff were around including John the Manager, I think it was Kat the Nanny, erm, but certainly one of the Nannies made, you know, certainly had found, found either a, well either a printer themselves that would print only from cameras or at least, erm, a connection to the printer that we could use for the card, I can’t remember what the equipment was in the end, but all of this took quite a, quite a while to get hold of.
Russ, rog.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 01:09:59 PM
Madeleine looked happy in all the photo's taken of her.
I said Kate and Gerry had other things on not Fiona, the McCann's did spend time with their children, they had a holiday at Easter before they went to Portugal, the holiday in Portugal was for the McCann's to have a break as well as the children.
They did things separately as the McCann's had their own routine, plus they had booked tennis lessons.
The McCann's enjoyed themselves playing with other children at the crèche and going on outings with the crèche and seeing their parents in between, playing in the children's playground etc. They spent the night asleep in their beds as all children do.
If you are trying to say that because the McCann's had a holiday that was for them as well as the children and this makes them out to be some nasty uncaring parents then you are mistaken. Madeleine was having fun at the crèche, after their trip to the beach with Kate and Gerry she asked to go back, she was practising for a dance that would have been performed on the Friday, but sadly didn't happen.
Madeleine was seen all that week, but nannies, friends, the cleaner, Mrs. Boyd and Mr. Edmonds are all either lying or mistaken, rubbish.
Mrs Boyd? The woman who saw Madeleine going down the non-existent waterslide?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 01:28:34 PM
I am well aware the tide turned Because of the lies told by amaral and the PJ Rather than refer to my post as rubbish why not answer the point raised Is it because you cannot The fact that you want to ignore the point destroys your credibility.... So carry on if you wish
What point?
You asserted that the errors in Crimewatch were not significant.
I have demonstrated otherwise.
Don't concern yourself with my credibility. Your opinion of my credibility is simply your opinion. And based on your previous posts on the topic of opinion, not worth worrying about.
Is it possible we could stop this childish exchange and get back on-topic?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 01:30:40 PM
Mrs Boyd? The woman who saw Madeleine going down the non-existent waterslide?
That was obviously a misprint, it should probably have said slide. Madeleine wasn't dressed to go in the pool, Mrs. Boyd give the description of what Madeleine was wearing, a top and skirt, hardly clothes she would wear to go down a water slide.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 04, 2016, 01:46:17 PM
The recon wasn't pointless regardless of the errors.
The recon rendered the Smithman part pointless, because of the error. Or even worse. Smithman headed to the sea, according to Crimewatch.
So if you vaguely thought you might have passed the Smiths that night, but you know for certain you did not head to the sea, would you enter the lions' den? Or would you just think - nah, can't be me, I never headed to the sea?
The salient points would be: 1) was I carrying a child through the streets that night, 2)did I pass the spot where the Smiths say they saw me, 3) do I remember passing a big group of tourists. If the answer was yes to two or more of those and I was not an abductor then I can think of no reason why I should fear coming forward to be eliminated, and minor errors in the reconstruction would not deter me from doing so. However, I'm wondering if Smithman might have been a tourist from a country where maybe there was not so much coverage of the case after the initial few days, maybe Russia perhaps? He may still to this day have no inkling that he is a "wanted" man. Do you get many Russians holidaying in PdL?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 04, 2016, 02:12:36 PM
You asserted that the errors in Crimewatch were not significant.
I have demonstrated otherwise.
Don't concern yourself with my credibility. Your opinion of my credibility is simply your opinion. And based on your previous posts on the topic of opinion, not worth worrying about.
Is it possible we could stop this childish exchange and get back on-topic?
I replied to your post on why the Portuguese turned against the McCanns You failed to mention the lies told by amaral and the PJ That is a major .... Major omission which puts doubts against your credibility Would you not accept the lies told played a big part in the turn against the McCanns
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 04, 2016, 02:18:33 PM
Erm, then, erm, there’s a period of time where, where we didn’t search and, erm, we were trying to do things, you know, nearby, erm, one of the, one of the things we tried to do after the Police, the local GNR Police had arrived, was we tried to get, we tried to get the photograph, erm, Kate certainly had some on her camera, they were looking for one, you know, face on that was big enough rather than a, you know, a profile or something, so that took a little while, we then didn’t have any means of printing it and a lot of the MARK WARNER staff were around including John the Manager, I think it was Kat the Nanny, erm, but certainly one of the Nannies made, you know, certainly had found, found either a, well either a printer themselves that would print only from cameras or at least, erm, a connection to the printer that we could use for the card, I can’t remember what the equipment was in the end, but all of this took quite a, quite a while to get hold of.
Russ, rog.
There is a slight difference in the above statement and the one made by Lace. ie full on face with no obstruction was NOT a mandatory requirement as suggested in Lace's post. I am sure if the only pic to be had was a oblique view the cops would have run with it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 04, 2016, 02:20:01 PM
The salient points would be: 1) was I carrying a child through the streets that night, 2)did I pass the spot where the Smiths say they saw me, 3) do I remember passing a big group of tourists. If the answer was yes to two or more of those and I was not an abductor then I can think of no reason why I should fear coming forward to be eliminated, and minor errors in the reconstruction would not deter me from doing so. However, I'm wondering if Smithman might have been a tourist from a country where maybe there was not so much coverage of the case after the initial few days, maybe Russia perhaps? He may still to this day have no inkling that he is a "wanted" man. Do you get many Russians holidaying in PdL?
Total agreement..... So neither error was important
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 04, 2016, 02:33:58 PM
That was obviously a misprint, it should probably have said slide. Madeleine wasn't dressed to go in the pool, Mrs. Boyd give the description of what Madeleine was wearing, a top and skirt, hardly clothes she would wear to go down a water slide.
No Boyds in the arrivals lists for that week either.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
There is a slight difference in the above statement and the one made by Lace. ie full on face with no obstruction was NOT a mandatory requirement as suggested in Lace's post. I am sure if the only pic to be had was a oblique view the cops would have run with it.
If a profile pic had been the only one available, then there wouldn't have been much choice.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 02:57:11 PM
There is a slight difference in the above statement and the one made by Lace. ie full on face with no obstruction was NOT a mandatory requirement as suggested in Lace's post. I am sure if the only pic to be had was a oblique view the cops would have run with it.
So would you say the last photo where Madeleine is pulling a face or the one with the tennis balls would have been ok?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 03:20:16 PM
The salient points would be: 1) was I carrying a child through the streets that night, 2)did I pass the spot where the Smiths say they saw me, 3) do I remember passing a big group of tourists. If the answer was yes to two or more of those and I was not an abductor then I can think of no reason why I should fear coming forward to be eliminated, and minor errors in the reconstruction would not deter me from doing so. However, I'm wondering if Smithman might have been a tourist from a country where maybe there was not so much coverage of the case after the initial few days, maybe Russia perhaps? He may still to this day have no inkling that he is a "wanted" man. Do you get many Russians holidaying in PdL?
At last, a fairly intelligent post on how to crack this particular nut. Do it the 'wrong' way round. Stop worrying about what the Smiths saw, which has produced nothing, and start role playing Smithman. 8((()*/
I have never yet met a Russian holidaying in Luz, though I have met more than one Russian person working here (and presumably living here).
So, let me be Smithman in this version, (and let me be Portuguese,) and let me be innocent. The last bit is obvious. I am not coming forward if I am guilty, after all.
What do I get for coming forward? A very, very large pile of poo. Given that I am innocent, do I wish to endure such torment? Why? Do you think for a moment that whatever-his-name is, the guy with a partner and a young child, but labelled the pig-farmer-rapist, enjoyed being hauled to Faro in Dec 14, and exposed to the media, at the behest of OG?
Roughly speaking, there is the right to forget here i.e. go straight and after a certain length of time previous crimes are supposed to be forgotten. The pig farmer committed a crime which has absolutely NOTHING in common with the Madeleine case, other than it occurred in Luz.
So if that is what he got first time round (PJ/media), and that is what he got second time round (OG/media), are you actually telling me you would hand yourself on a plate to gutter media?
Honestly?
You would decide it was your civic duty to be grilled by the Portuguese police, grilled by OG, then grilled by the media?
Would you really put your family through that?
I'm not Smithman, but let me answer my own question. As it happens, I have no criminal record. However, I would not subject myself to such an ordeal, given that this trial by fire does not solve the case. I certainly would not expose my family to the poking and prying of the media.
To suggest Smithman has nothing to fear by coming forward is naïve. The Smiths supposedly had nothing to fear; they came forward; and it would appear that at least Mr Smith considered they suffered greatly. If they had known in advance what they would go through, would the Smiths have come forward anyway? Only they can answer that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2016, 03:28:08 PM
At last, a fairly intelligent post on how to crack this particular nut. Do it the 'wrong' way round. Stop worrying about what the Smiths saw, which has produced nothing, and start role playing Smithman. 8((()*/
I have never yet met a Russian holidaying in Luz, though I have met more than one Russian person working here (and presumably living here).
So, let me be Smithman in this version, (and let me be Portuguese,) and let me be innocent. The last bit is obvious. I am not coming forward if I am guilty, after all.
What do I get for coming forward? A very, very large pile of poo. Given that I am innocent, do I wish to endure such torment? Why? Do you think for a moment that whatever-his-name is, the guy with a partner and a young child, but labelled the pig-farmer-rapist, enjoyed being hauled to Faro in Dec 14, and exposed to the media, at the behest of OG?
Roughly speaking, there is the right to forget here i.e. go straight and after a certain length of time previous crimes are supposed to be forgotten. The pig farmer committed a crime which has absolutely NOTHING in common with the Madeleine case, other than it occurred in Luz.
So if that is what he got first time round (PJ/media), and that is what he got second time round (OG/media), are you actually telling me you would hand yourself on a plate to gutter media?
Honestly?
You would decide it was your civic duty to be grilled by the Portuguese police, grilled by OG, then grilled by the media?
Would you really put your family through that?
I'm not Smithman, but let me answer my own question. As it happens, I have no criminal record. However, I would not subject myself to such an ordeal, given that this trial by fire does not solve the case. I certainly would not expose my family to the poking and prying of the media.
To suggest Smithman has nothing to fear by coming forward is naïve. The Smiths supposedly had nothing to fear; they came forward; and it would appear that at least Mr Smith considered they suffered greatly. If they had known in advance what they would go through, would the Smiths have come forward anyway? Only they can answer that.
Where do you situate PJ leaks in all this?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 03:32:43 PM
At last, a fairly intelligent post on how to crack this particular nut. Do it the 'wrong' way round. Stop worrying about what the Smiths saw, which has produced nothing, and start role playing Smithman. 8((()*/
I have never yet met a Russian holidaying in Luz, though I have met more than one Russian person working here (and presumably living here).
So, let me be Smithman in this version, (and let me be Portuguese,) and let me be innocent. The last bit is obvious. I am not coming forward if I am guilty, after all.
What do I get for coming forward? A very, very large pile of poo. Given that I am innocent, do I wish to endure such torment? Why? Do you think for a moment that whatever-his-name is, the guy with a partner and a young child, but labelled the pig-farmer-rapist, enjoyed being hauled to Faro in Dec 14, and exposed to the media, at the behest of OG?
Roughly speaking, there is the right to forget here i.e. go straight and after a certain length of time previous crimes are supposed to be forgotten. The pig farmer committed a crime which has absolutely NOTHING in common with the Madeleine case, other than it occurred in Luz.
So if that is what he got first time round (PJ/media), and that is what he got second time round (OG/media), are you actually telling me you would hand yourself on a plate to gutter media?
Honestly?
You would decide it was your civic duty to be grilled by the Portuguese police, grilled by OG, then grilled by the media?
Would you really put your family through that?
I'm not Smithman, but let me answer my own question. As it happens, I have no criminal record. However, I would not subject myself to such an ordeal, given that this trial by fire does not solve the case. I certainly would not expose my family to the poking and prying of the media.
To suggest Smithman has nothing to fear by coming forward is naïve. The Smiths supposedly had nothing to fear; they came forward; and it would appear that at least Mr Smith considered they suffered greatly. If they had known in advance what they would go through, would the Smiths have come forward anyway? Only they can answer that.
I have already posted taht a portuguese smithman might be unlikely to come forward.....from previous articles the portuguese level of trust in the pj is low
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 04, 2016, 03:55:20 PM
At last, a fairly intelligent post on how to crack this particular nut. Do it the 'wrong' way round. Stop worrying about what the Smiths saw, which has produced nothing, and start role playing Smithman. 8((()*/
I have never yet met a Russian holidaying in Luz, though I have met more than one Russian person working here (and presumably living here).
So, let me be Smithman in this version, (and let me be Portuguese,) and let me be innocent. The last bit is obvious. I am not coming forward if I am guilty, after all.
What do I get for coming forward? A very, very large pile of poo. Given that I am innocent, do I wish to endure such torment? Why? Do you think for a moment that whatever-his-name is, the guy with a partner and a young child, but labelled the pig-farmer-rapist, enjoyed being hauled to Faro in Dec 14, and exposed to the media, at the behest of OG?
Roughly speaking, there is the right to forget here i.e. go straight and after a certain length of time previous crimes are supposed to be forgotten. The pig farmer committed a crime which has absolutely NOTHING in common with the Madeleine case, other than it occurred in Luz.
So if that is what he got first time round (PJ/media), and that is what he got second time round (OG/media), are you actually telling me you would hand yourself on a plate to gutter media?
Honestly?
You would decide it was your civic duty to be grilled by the Portuguese police, grilled by OG, then grilled by the media?
Would you really put your family through that?
I'm not Smithman, but let me answer my own question. As it happens, I have no criminal record. However, I would not subject myself to such an ordeal, given that this trial by fire does not solve the case. I certainly would not expose my family to the poking and prying of the media.
To suggest Smithman has nothing to fear by coming forward is naïve. The Smiths supposedly had nothing to fear; they came forward; and it would appear that at least Mr Smith considered they suffered greatly. If they had known in advance what they would go through, would the Smiths have come forward anyway? Only they can answer that.
Woo hoo @ "fairly intelligent" - nothing like being damned with faint praise and patronised at the same time I feel quite honoured, many thanks.
As for the rest, it's a sad indictment on the law enforcement and justice system in Portugal if an innocent man cannot feel himself safe from harm if he chooses to come forward to be eliminated from a criminal enquiry, but given that you say he has every good reason to be pooping his pants well then that explains why we've not heard a peep out of Smithman once. Given that this man exists and that clearly the police would have liked to eliminate (or otherwise) him from their enquiries how would you suggest the best way for them to have gone about this, without the publicity such as Crimewatch which you seem to deplore?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 04:27:03 PM
There is a slight difference in the above statement and the one made by Lace. ie full on face with no obstruction was NOT a mandatory requirement as suggested in Lace's post. I am sure if the only pic to be had was a oblique view the cops would have run with it.
There seems to have been a discussion of the police requirements of a photo running for a while on this thread, which I am finding somewhat baffling.
AFAIK the police never requested photos, nor specified the requirements thereof. It was not pull (request by police), it was push (T9 getting publicity out).
Have I got this wrong?
If I've got it right, any debate should be about T9 criteria, rather than police criteria.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 05:09:17 PM
Woo hoo @ "fairly intelligent" - nothing like being damned with faint praise and patronised at the same time I feel quite honoured, many thanks.
As for the rest, it's a sad indictment on the law enforcement and justice system in Portugal if an innocent man cannot feel himself safe from harm if he chooses to come forward to be eliminated from a criminal enquiry, but given that you say he has every good reason to be pooping his pants well then that explains why we've not heard a peep out of Smithman once. Given that this man exists and that clearly the police would have liked to eliminate (or otherwise) him from their enquiries how would you suggest the best way for them to have gone about this, without the publicity such as Crimewatch which you seem to deplore?
It wasn't faint praise. In my time on the forum I have seen umpteen opinions on why the Smiths evidence should nail Smithman, and why it shouldn't.
I can't remember it being turned the other way round. My apologies in advance to anyone who has already done so.
I think what I would like to do (after dinner) is find an appropriate Smithman thread and take this line of thought over to there.
We wouldn't like to be told off by the mods for breaking the forum rules, would we? 8((()*/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 04, 2016, 05:10:08 PM
Agreed. That's the whole point. However, a little face scrunched up in laughter and / or in profile would look like any other.
You are becoming hung up in detail where the value of that detail is minimal, for the purposes of achieving the objective. You have a point if someone is holding the photo against the child's face for comparison but they will not be. You will be relying on someone having a passing view at anything up to 15 metres or so away.
Edit Agree with xtina. That pic is more useful as it gives better GISS.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 04, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
I have already posted that a portuguese smithman might be unlikely to come forward.....from previous articles the portuguese level of trust in the pj is low
If smithman is a portuguese speaker wouldn't he see the 2 efits on the official portuguese language webpages of the Find Madeleine website and come forward? Or wouldn't he see the 2 efits on the portuguese language broadcast of Crimewatch which BBC and SY and MF arranged in Portugal?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 04, 2016, 06:09:51 PM
You are becoming hung up in detail where the value of that detail is minimal, for the purposes of achieving the objective. You have a point if someone is holding the photo against the child's face for comparison but they will not be. You will be relying on someone having a passing view at anything up to 15 metres or so away.
Edit Agree with xtina. That pic is more useful as it gives better GISS.
However, it was Russell running around trying to get whatever he could find printed as soon as possible. He may have just chosen the first full head one that he found.
The card came from Kate's camera... but did he take the camera with him, or did he simply grab a card? Reason for asking is that there may have been more than one.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 04, 2016, 06:44:54 PM
There's mention somewhere of 4 photos being available for printing, possibly in Russell's rog statement.
Edit.
Some info here http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POSTERS.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 06:52:54 PM
I didn't follow the case at the time, therefore I am not in a position to make any sort of definitive statement on leaks from that era.
One potential source of leaks in the Dec 14 round of 11 interviews would be the authorities who approved the interviews. Equally, it could be those requesting the interviews. Or those arranging the interviews.
Probably many a suspect. Just no smoking gun.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2016, 07:08:13 PM
There's mention somewhere of 4 photos being available for printing, possibly in Russell's rog statement.
(From a statement that was typed up from monitoring notes due to the screwup with the recording.) We tried to find a picture of Madeleine Kate checked her camera but these were mainly of her at home or not such a clear picture. We found a picture of Madeleine but we couldn’t print it off. Cat or one of the nannies said that they had a printer and took the camera away to get some photos copied. A copy of the photo was given directly to the Police, someone from the Mark Warner staff made a poster- but I do not know who that was. (page eight)
This seems to be from going over the notes of the non-recorded interview:
4064 “No.” Reply “So maybe just delete that.” O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement. Reply “Again I’m not quite sure, I don’t think I’ve ever, I don’t think I was ever aware that it was Jane’s photograph, it was only, it was only ever err Kate’s camera, if someone got Kate’s camera she was in no fit state to start searching through, so Kate’s camera was given to us and we searched through for most useful photograph that was on it, err…”
4064 “So if I just say a picture had been taken…” Reply “Yeah, I think, a picture, a picture had been taken, we’ll use that… It says conducted an email there but…”
4064 “Where' Where we looking at'” Reply “Err it was, the second last line, Dave was also to make use of the media and think that he may have conducted an email, constructed.” O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.[/i]
(From one of the recorded ones:) So, anyway, I saw her at some point either after the initial searches or after this longer one. Erm, then, erm, there’s a period of time where, where we didn’t search and, erm, we were trying to do things, you know, nearby, erm, one of the, one of the things we tried to do after the Police, the local GNR Police had arrived, was we tried to get, we tried to get the photograph, erm, Kate certainly had some on her camera, they were looking for one, you know, face on that was big enough rather than a, you know, a profile or something, so that took a little while, we then didn’t have any means of printing it and a lot of the MARK WARNER staff were around including John the Manager, I think it was Kat the Nanny, erm, but certainly one of the Nannies made, you know, certainly had found, found either a, well either a printer themselves that would print only from cameras or at least, erm, a connection to the printer that we could use for the card, I can’t remember what the equipment was in the end, but all of this took quite a, quite a while to get hold of.
(Further:)
1578 “Did you have any photo of Madeleine in your possession”' Reply “Erm we got a photo of Madeleine later on but this is two hours later, erm”.
1578 “So who gave it to you”' Reply “Okay well certain, I’m not quite sure what the, the initial, the question made it sound like whoever had one in our possession anyway, I didn’t, erm we got a, we erm, after a portion of my searches, we got hold of erm Kate’s camera, err looked through the digital cam to try and find a picture of Madeleine reasonably recently, reasonably face on and, and with her being the main, the main character on the photograph, erm clearly that that was going through, there were quite a few pictures that were not ideal, so we, we went through those, err and then printed that off, erm all of this taking a reasonable amount of time to try and get hold of equipment and have offices opened and etc., etc”.
1578 “Okay. What kind of photo was it”' Reply “The, it was a, it was a photo of err, it was the one that was being circulated in the, in the days immediately afterwards, I’ve seen so many photographs of her, of Madeleine since, I think it was a photograph that had been taken of her and a relatively number of weeks before and I think with a slightly different, slightly longer hair, erm but it was, it was a fa, it was a fa, it was a relatively full on sort of face on photograph, err and it was printed on a standard size erm four by six err inch, as you know, using the equipment that the people had and we ran off a number of copies of this, erm and several I think were given to the, the GNR”.
1578 “I was going to ask you the next question”. Reply “Sorry”.
1578 “Was, who did you give the photo to”' Reply “Yeah well I think the ones that I had, I took, you know cos obviously they were printing out, you know they were slow you know, we really wanted to get them to the Police fairly quickly, so I took the first couple of copies and took those round to, I think the GNR staff, I presume they were the origin, you know original uniformed Officers, it wasn’t the PJ, it was well before the PJ arrived, erm there were other copies printed off which I don’t know where they got to but I know that Mark WARNER, somebody in Mark WARNER made a poster, or at least an A4 err saying that there’d been, you know, there’d been a, err an abduction and that Madeleine was missing and that was circulated around the next morning, so somebody had, had, had that photograph and used it for that poster but I took, I don’t know two or three copies maybe and gave them to the Police. I actually think ultimately there may have been more copies printed off and somebody else gave even more copies to them as well, err and I think some of the other copies were shown, were just shown to people around who were going on the searches but erm personally”.
1578 “The copies that you had, you only gave to the Police”' Reply “I gave it to the Police, just to the Police”.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 04, 2016, 07:21:55 PM
There's mention somewhere of 4 photos being available for printing, possibly in Russell's rog statement.
Edit.
Some info here http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POSTERS.htm
I'm not sure what "dua a dua" means. It was translated as "two by two". Just a guess is that it means that Russell had given the GNR 2 copies of 2 different photos, but I'm not certain about that.
That doesn't mean that those were the only photos.
People were running around like headless chickens that night and Russell and whoever (Amy?) printed out the first ones they found that showed her face clearly and that could be printed (one of the extracts that I posted earlier mentions a photo that they had trouble printing for some reason).
The PJ spent ages trying to work out how they were printed. If they'd asked, it might have saved quite a bit of time.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 04, 2016, 08:28:40 PM
List of all holidaymakers from various dates up to two weeks before and two or more after) with either M Warner or T Cook or there as owners of the properties (like the Moyes, who are there on page 633)
The Boyds dont appear anywhere, so its anyones guess how they got into the Ocean Club, perhaps as guests of a private owner? They apparently had been spotted in the "playground picture" said to be taken on 2 May (see pamalams site and search for Boyd)
Eta here you go:
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Keesh.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 04, 2016, 08:32:10 PM
If smithman is a portuguese speaker wouldn't he see the 2 efits on the official portuguese language webpages of the Find Madeleine website and come forward? Or wouldn't he see the 2 efits on the portuguese language broadcast of Crimewatch which BBC and SY and MF arranged in Portugal?
AFAIK, the efits of Smithman have never appeared on the Portuguese language pages of Find Madeleine, and still do not.
There has never been a broadcast of the Crimewatch 2013 in Portugal, whether in English or in Portuguese. It never happened.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 04, 2016, 08:52:45 PM
List of all holidaymakers from various dates up to two weeks before and two or more after) with either M Warner or T Cook or there as owners of the properties (like the Moyes, who are there on page 633)
The Boyds dont appear anywhere, so its anyones guess how they got into the Ocean Club, perhaps as guests of a private owner? They apparently had been spotted in the "playground picture" said to be taken on 2 May (see pamalams site and search for Boyd)
Eta here you go:
Thank you for that. I now see the Moyes name on the guest list. Perhaps the booking was in the name of the older lady pictured holding the baby.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 04, 2016, 09:49:30 PM
Thank you for that. I now see the Moyes name on the guest list. Perhaps the booking was in the name of the older lady pictured holding the baby.
There were rumours of people being in apartments but not being known about. Not all the apartments were under the Ocean Club either. Whether it was possible to still use the facilities I don't know.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 04, 2016, 09:55:36 PM
There are some nice clouds in it ; top left between the trees ?{)(**
@)(++(* 8((()*/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 07, 2016, 10:02:24 AM
what the Boyd's have done is obviously sensationalised a story for a magazine .....seriously whizzing up and down the water slide ...is that suppose to mean they were playing in the water .....in k mcc book [page 60] she mentions nothing of what Boyd's say ...only that it rained and they were only at park for an hour
Boyd's say kmcc was relaxed on a sun lounger ...maddie was wearing a sun hat...a little pink top playing in the sun with other children
what she has described ...playing football for an hour ...playing round the pool playing an the water slide...seems like most of the afternoon
yet when all this was happening after an hour ....maddie was at the creche...so what is wrong ...Boyd's/creche records
or it could have been the sunday the Boyd's were talking about ...there is no proof it was the Wednesday ..they day before maddie disappeared
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2016, 03:25:26 PM
Whoever posted notes (Albym?) seems to have noted quite a few photos of Madeleine.
The pink tracksuit one is noted as being taken on 2 May, but I'm not sure where that information came from.
The "playground man" pic was taken that day, according to Bruno Press. http://www.brunopress.nl/bin/Brunopress.dll/go?a=disp&t=sr-loadersearch.html&searchtext=madeleine+mccann+2007
(p. 8 - ref 01256702 and 01256698)
If so, there must have been a bit of sunshine poking through at some point on Wed pm.
There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that these three photographs were taken late afternoon, Saturday 28th April:
1) Playground photo - Madeleine playing with Madeleine 2) and 3) Madeleine by the Wendy House.
As xtina says, we have the similarities of clothing worn by three people in shot with what they were wearing in the plane journey earlier that day. Plus the scenes, shadows, weather etc. are all wholly consistent with what the McCanns say about their first day (NOTE: Apart from Madeleine allegedly jumping straight into a cold pool).
That only leaves us with two other highly disputed photos of Madelene that week:
1. The Last Photo 2. The Tennis Balls Photo.
Referring back to Carana's post:
A. Albym's note about the photos being on Wednesday is clearly wrong, probably based on something he read elsewhere
B. The Bruno Press were also clearly wrong
C. So was First Magazine wrong to publish false claims by the Boyds that their boy Louie was 'playing football with Madeleine for over an hour', they were whizzing down the waterslide together [there was no waterslide there and Wednesday was cold and rainy anyway]m and that Mrs Boyd and Kate had a chat together.
Putting 2 and 2 together and making 4, it looks as though very early on someone was pushing false information about these three Saturday photos into the media
Sorry, this doesn't make any sense to me.
Quote Blonk:
There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that these three photographs were taken late afternoon, Saturday 28th April:
1) Playground photo - Madeleine playing with Madeleine
Unquote Blonk.
Which 3 photos?
And what on earth is "Madeleine playing with Madeleine" supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 07, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that these three photographs were taken late afternoon, Saturday 28th April:
1) Playground photo - Madeleine playing with Madeleine
Unquote Blonk.
Which 3 photos?
And what on earth is "Madeleine playing with Madeleine" supposed to mean?
Should be "Gerry McCann playing with Madeleine". The three photos are:
The playground photo - sun shining
The two by the Wendy House - probably taken some time after the playground as some clouds were bubbling up over the town late afternoon (see background of playground photo).
'Last Photo' and 'Tennis Balls Phot both debatable.
None more of Madeleine that week ever shown
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 07, 2016, 03:52:56 PM
Should be "Gerry McCann playing with Madeleine". The three photos are:
The playground photo - sun shining
The two by the Wendy House - probably taken some time after the playground as some clouds were bubbling up over the town late afternoon (see background of playground photo).
'Last Photo' and 'Tennis Balls Phot both debatable.
None more of Madeleine that week ever shown
One point at a time.
Blonk quote: The playground photo - sun shining
Unquote
When was this photo supposed to have been taken, according to Hall and his researchers?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 07, 2016, 04:12:39 PM
The magazine article was published 19/5/2007. The Boyds describe Madeleine's pink top & sun hat, as seen in the last photo. The last photo was not released until 24/5/2007. I'm not quite sure how the Boyds could have conspired to fabricate their story.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2016, 04:29:55 PM
When was that playground photo taken?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 07, 2016, 04:36:10 PM
The magazine article was published 19/5/2007. The Boyds describe Madeleine's pink top & sun hat, as seen in the last photo. The last photo was not released until 24/5/2007. I'm not quite sure how the Boyds could have conspired to fabricate their story.
If you've got this right, I do believe I might need a copy of your database. Very impressive! 8((()*/
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2016, 04:40:00 PM
Whoever posted notes (Albym?) seems to have noted quite a few photos of Madeleine.
The pink tracksuit one is noted as being taken on 2 May, but I'm not sure where that information came from.
The "playground man" pic was taken that day, according to Bruno Press. http://www.brunopress.nl/bin/Brunopress.dll/go?a=disp&t=sr-loadersearch.html&searchtext=madeleine+mccann+2007
(p. 8 - ref 01256702 and 01256698)
If so, there must have been a bit of sunshine poking through at some point on Wed pm.
There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that these three photographs were taken late afternoon, Saturday 28th April:
1) Playground photo - Madeleine playing with Madeleine 2) and 3) Madeleine by the Wendy House.
As xtina says, we have the similarities of clothing worn by three people in shot with what they were wearing in the plane journey earlier that day. Plus the scenes, shadows, weather etc. are all wholly consistent with what the McCanns say about their first day (NOTE: Apart from Madeleine allegedly jumping straight into a cold pool).
That only leaves us with two other highly disputed photos of Madelene that week:
1. The Last Photo 2. The Tennis Balls Photo.
Referring back to Carana's post:
A. Albym's note about the photos being on Wednesday is clearly wrong, probably based on something he read elsewhere
B. The Bruno Press were also clearly wrong
C. So was First Magazine wrong to publish false claims by the Boyds that their boy Louie was 'playing football with Madeleine for over an hour', they were whizzing down the waterslide together [there was no waterslide there and Wednesday was cold and rainy anyway]m and that Mrs Boyd and Kate had a chat together.
Putting 2 and 2 together and making 4, it looks as though very early on someone was pushing false information about these three Saturday photos into the media
What exactly is this "overwhelming" evidence?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 07, 2016, 04:48:15 PM
If you've got this right, I do believe I might need a copy of your database. Very impressive! 8((()*/
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/1may7/first-19-05-07.htm Original Source: FIRST MAGAZINE -19-25 MAY 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id280.html The 'Last Photograph' of Madeleine, released 24 May 2007
It has been widely accepted, or at least reported, that the 'last photograph' of Madeleine - beside the kiddie's pool in the Ocean Club - was taken by Kate McCann, using her own digital camera.
It has also been reported that the picture was taken at 2.29pm on 03 May 2007. Kate's camera clock is said to have been one hour out, so the display reads 1.29pm. However, there are no versions of the picture, so far released, that are able to confirm this.
Although Portugal and the UK share the same time, it is reported that the camera clock was one hour out as Kate had not adjusted it after the change to British summer time on 25 March 2007.
Madeleine: Last Known Photo Released, 24 May 2007
Madeleine: Last Known Photo Released Sky News video
May 24, 2007
The family of Madeleine McCann have released their last photo of the girl before she vanished. It's now three weeks since she disappeared from the family's apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz. Kay Burley has the details.
(00:01:52)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2016, 05:01:16 PM
According to Hall and associates, the "playground photos" were taken... when? On the Saturday or the Sunday?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 07, 2016, 05:08:15 PM
The magazine article was published 19/5/2007. The Boyds describe Madeleine's pink top & sun hat, as seen in the last photo. The last photo was not released until 24/5/2007. I'm not quite sure how the Boyds could have conspired to fabricate their story.
I make the date on the magazine 25th May and Madeleine was wearing a blue skirt. It wasn't the day of the last photo, it was the day before. I wonder where the twins were? They were always in kids clubs or out of them at the same times. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/1may7/first-19-05-07.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 07, 2016, 06:16:14 PM
I make the date on the magazine 25th May and Madeleine was wearing a blue skirt. It wasn't the day of the last photo, it was the day before. I wonder where the twins were? They were always in kids clubs or out of them at the same times. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/1may7/first-19-05-07.htm
The article refers to two weeks since Madeleine's disappearance. Periodicals are normally printed for the forthcoming week, not in arrears - have a look next time you are in a newsagent. Blonk suggested that the article was totally fabricated. If it was - why would the Boyds have made reference to a sun hat (and possibly pink top) they couldn't have known Madeleine possessed? What have the twins got to do with it? They were too young to play boisterous footie. They were probably with Gerry &/or all the other Tapas children.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 07, 2016, 08:04:11 PM
The article refers to two weeks since Madeleine's disappearance. Periodicals are normally printed for the forthcoming week, not in arrears - have a look next time you are in a newsagent. Blonk suggested that the article was totally fabricated. If it was - why would the Boyds have made reference to a sun hat (and possibly pink top) they couldn't have known Madeleine possessed? What have the twins got to do with it? They were too young to play boisterous footie. They were probably with Gerry &/or all the other Tapas children.
The article said Gerry was playing tennis. He played from 2.30 to 3.30 on Wednesday because it rained in the morning. Madeleine was at Minis. He may have played from 6.15 to 7.15 in 'beat the pro' but the others in the group would have been with Kate then and it's unlikely that Madeleine played football for an hour with the Boyd's child if her other friends were there.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 07, 2016, 08:12:39 PM
The article said Gerry was playing tennis. He played from 2.30 to 3.30 on Wednesday because it rained in the morning. Madeleine was at Minis. He may have played from 6.15 to 7.15 in 'beat the pro' but the others in the group would have been with Kate then and it's unlikely that Madeleine played football for an hour with the Boyd's child if her other friends were there.
The group normally went to the play area after the children had had high tea - so, say, 5.30 onwards (late afternoon). I don't know what you find so odd about Madeleine playing football with Louie (whose sibling was just a baby). It's what children on holiday do - commonly known as making friends.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 07, 2016, 08:54:57 PM
The group normally went to the play area after the children had had high tea - so, say, 5.30 onwards (late afternoon). I don't know what you find so odd about Madeleine playing football with Louie (whose sibling was just a baby). It's what children on holiday do - commonly known as making friends.
There's nothing odd about children playing. It becomes odd when the times/activities don't fit the facts. Gerry wasn't playing tennis at that time. I like to check things, not take them at face value.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 07, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
They don't go back to the creche until 2:30 - 2 hour lunch break. It's not unusual for a footy mad girl to be playing football with boys. Even in the McCann released doc they were playing footy with the kids in their garden.
There's nothing odd about children playing. It becomes odd when the times/activities don't fit the facts. Gerry wasn't playing tennis at that time. I like to check things, not take them at face value.
Sorry, I'm lost. What are you referring to? A photo? If so, which one?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 07, 2016, 09:04:09 PM
There's nothing odd about children playing. It becomes odd when the times/activities don't fit the facts. Gerry wasn't playing tennis at that time. I like to check things, not take them at face value.
Gerry may not have been playing in an organised tennis session but he could well have been playing socially if a court was free. If there's one thing about an avid tennis player - they don't let an empty court go to waste.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 07, 2016, 09:18:21 PM
Well you can believe what you like. There's no mention of the twins and Madeleine was never alone with her parents without them except possibly on the Monday afternoon.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2016, 09:35:21 PM
Well you can believe what you like. There's no mention of the twins and Madeleine was never alone with her parents without them except possibly on the Monday afternoon.
I'm not sure who you are answering.
If the playground photo did not involve Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and someone else's brown-haired little child, who were they all?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 07, 2016, 09:37:16 PM
Blonk suggested that the article was totally fabricated. If it was - why would the Boyds have made reference to a sun hat (and possibly pink top) they couldn't have known Madeleine possessed?
The evidence that it is a fabrication is very clear and I won't repeat it. It's not even corroborated by Kate McCann in her book, for starters.
Now you make an excellent point about how they would 'know' about the 'pink top/dress' and the 'sun hats' etc. Looks like their account must be true on the face of it.
But has it occurred to you (or anyone else) that whether the 'Last Photo' was taken on the Sunday or the Thursday, the McCanns had it in their possession, it was on their SD card?
So they could have shown it to anyone they liked well before it was finally published on 24 May. We know that Alex Woolfall, the Head of Risk for one of the world's largest (and most opportunist) PR companies, Bell Pottinger, was trawling through Gerry and Kate's photographs as soon as he got to Praia da Luz on Friday 4 May. (Well, he had to do something for the £500,000 that, according to Lord Bell himself, the McCanns paid Bell Pottinger)
Woolfall was deleting photos and cropping others before the PJ got to see only an edited version of them on a CD handed in by the pair on 9 May at Portimao Police Station.
So, Gerry and Kate had the Last Photo in their camera. Alex Woolfall had it the next day.
They could have shared it with anyone. Clarence Mitchell for starters.
Anyone could have given it to the Boyds so as to help them fabricate a story about Louie and Madeleine playing football on the Wednesday afternoon.
It looks like those who concocted this fabrication, i.e. that Madeleine was playing football and whizzing down a non-existent water slide etc. on the cloudy and rainy Wednesday, grossly over-egged it, and chose the wrong day of the week for their tale.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 07, 2016, 09:47:45 PM
The evidence that it is a fabrication is very clear and I won't repeat it. It's not even corroborated by Kate McCann in her book, for starters.
Now you make an excellent point about how they would 'know' about the 'pink top/dress' and the 'sun hats' etc. Looks like their account must be true on the face of it.
But has it occurred to you (or anyone else) that whether the 'Last Photo' was taken on the Sunday or the Thursday, the McCanns had it in their possession, it was on their SD card?
So they could have shown it to anyone they liked well before it was finally published on 24 May. We know that Alex Woolfall, the Head of Risk for one of the world's largest (and most opportunist) PR companies, Bell Pottinger, was trawling through Gerry and Kate's photographs as soon as he got to Praia da Luz on Friday 4 May. (Well, he had to do something for the £500,000 that, according to Lord Bell himself, the McCanns paid Bell Pottinger)
Woolfall was deleting photos and cropping others before the PJ got to see only an edited version of them on a CD handed in by the pair on 9 May at Portimao Police Station.
So, Gerry and Kate had the Last Photo in their camera. Alex Woolfall had it the next day.
They could have shared it with anyone. Clarence Mitchell for starters.
Anyone could have given it to the Boyds so as to help them fabricate a story about Louie and Madeleine playing football on the Wednesday afternoon.
It looks like those who concocted this fabrication, i.e. that Madeleine was playing football and whizzing down a non-existent water slide etc. on the cloudy and rainy Wednesday, grossly over-egged it, and chose the wrong day of the week for their tale.
As the Boyds name was not even on the list of OC guests, how much effort do you think went into tracing them in less than 2 weeks with a view to planting a bogus story in the media?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 07, 2016, 10:18:45 PM
As the Boyds name was not even on the list of OC guests, how much effort do you think went into tracing them in less than 2 weeks with a view to planting a bogus story in the media?
It is called clutching at straws. You would have heard about it if the sailing instructors didn't see Maddy on the 3rd.
I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point. And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club”. JT
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 08, 2016, 07:18:01 AM
If the playground photo did not involve Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and someone else's brown-haired little child, who were they all?
Well I'm not talking about the playground photo, what has that got to do with anything? (the other child is a Payne btw) I'm saying the Boyds never mentioned the twins who would have been present if Madeleine was present. It's rare for the mother of two year old twins to be able to relax on a sun lounger in my experience.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 08, 2016, 08:44:16 AM
The evidence that it is a fabrication is very clear and I won't repeat it. It's not even corroborated by Kate McCann in her book, for starters.
Now you make an excellent point about how they would 'know' about the 'pink top/dress' and the 'sun hats' etc. Looks like their account must be true on the face of it.
But has it occurred to you (or anyone else) that whether the 'Last Photo' was taken on the Sunday or the Thursday, the McCanns had it in their possession, it was on their SD card?
So they could have shown it to anyone they liked well before it was finally published on 24 May. We know that Alex Woolfall, the Head of Risk for one of the world's largest (and most opportunist) PR companies, Bell Pottinger, was trawling through Gerry and Kate's photographs as soon as he got to Praia da Luz on Friday 4 May. (Well, he had to do something for the £500,000 that, according to Lord Bell himself, the McCanns paid Bell Pottinger)
Woolfall was deleting photos and cropping others before the PJ got to see only an edited version of them on a CD handed in by the pair on 9 May at Portimao Police Station.
So, Gerry and Kate had the Last Photo in their camera. Alex Woolfall had it the next day.
They could have shared it with anyone. Clarence Mitchell for starters.
Anyone could have given it to the Boyds so as to help them fabricate a story about Louie and Madeleine playing football on the Wednesday afternoon.
It looks like those who concocted this fabrication, i.e. that Madeleine was playing football and whizzing down a non-existent water slide etc. on the cloudy and rainy Wednesday, grossly over-egged it, and chose the wrong day of the week for their tale.
It didn't rain all day on the Wednesday, there was a tennis lesson booked for the morning which was rescheduled for the afternoon, so it wasn't raining in the afternoon.
Mrs. Boyd described Madeleine as wearing a top and a skirt, now does that give you the impression that Madeleine was going down a water slide? It was more likely it was meant to read just slide as they were by the play area.
Gerry and Kate McCann took the children to the play area after lunch on the Wednesday.
The way you say that this family were asked to fake part of their holiday so that it fits in with your 'no one saw Madeleine after the Sunday' I find quite disgusting.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 08, 2016, 08:45:16 AM
Well I'm not talking about the playground photo, what has that got to do with anything? (the other child is a Payne btw) I'm saying the Boyds never mentioned the twins who would have been present if Madeleine was present. It's rare for the mother of two year old twins to be able to relax on a sun lounger in my experience.
Could be the twins were playing with Gerry.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 08, 2016, 09:54:52 AM
It didn't rain all day on the Wednesday, there was a tennis lesson booked for the morning which was rescheduled for the afternoon, so it wasn't raining in the afternoon.
Mrs. Boyd described Madeleine as wearing a top and a skirt, now does that give you the impression that Madeleine was going down a water slide? It was more likely it was meant to read just slide as they were by the play area.
Gerry and Kate McCann took the children to the play area after lunch on the Wednesday.
The way you say that this family were asked to fake part of their holiday so that it fits in with your 'no one saw Madeleine after the Sunday' I find quite disgusting, you are calling this woman a liar.
QUOTE
It didn't rain in the afternoon...
Mrs. Boyd described Madeleine as wearing a top and a skirt...
Gerry and Kate McCann took the children to the play area on the Wednesday....
The way you say that this family were asked to fake part of their holiday I find quite disgusting....
UNQUOTE
REPLY:
1. Why isn't the 'Mrs Boyd, Madeleine and Louie' story mentioned in Kate's book?
2. Why does Kate's book conflict with Mrs Boyd's account of that Wednesday afternoon?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 08, 2016, 10:09:31 AM
Mrs. Boyd described Madeleine as wearing a top and a skirt...
Gerry and Kate McCann took the children to the play area on the Wednesday....
The way you say that this family were asked to fake part of their holiday I find quite disgusting....
UNQUOTE
REPLY:
1. Why isn't the 'Mrs Boyd, Madeleine and Louie' story mentioned in Kate's book?
2. Why does Kate's book conflict with Mrs Boyd's account of that Wednesday afternoon?
If Mrs Boyd is someone employed to fabricate a story to convince people that Madeleine was alive and well on May 3rd (when she wasn't) - then surely Kate would most definitely have included that lady and her 'proof' in her book. Why miss such a golden opportunity?
The fact that she didn't should tell you something.
AIMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 08, 2016, 10:15:36 AM
Mrs. Boyd described Madeleine as wearing a top and a skirt...
Gerry and Kate McCann took the children to the play area on the Wednesday....
The way you say that this family were asked to fake part of their holiday I find quite disgusting....
UNQUOTE
REPLY:
1. Why isn't the 'Mrs Boyd, Madeleine and Louie' story mentioned in Kate's book?
2. Why does Kate's book conflict with Mrs Boyd's account of that Wednesday afternoon?
Why should it be mentioned in Kate's book? Does she mention any of the children Madeleine played with in the crèche?
Kate says that she and Gerry took the children to the play area for an hour after lunch on the Wednesday.
Brilliant reasons to label Mrs. Boyd as being mistaken. it was raining [it wasn't] Madeleine was going down a water slide [obviously a mix up as Madeleine wasn't dressed for the water, most probably just going down the slide] Kate didn't mention her in her book [no doubt Kate didn't mention many people she met in her book] I think you should do more research.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 08, 2016, 10:31:00 AM
Can we please leave out the use of the word Liar.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 08, 2016, 10:40:22 AM
Sorry, amended.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 08, 2016, 10:45:23 AM
Why should it be mentioned in Kate's book? Does she mention any of the children Madeleine played with in the crèche?
Kate says that she and Gerry took the children to the play area for an hour after lunch on the Wednesday.
Brilliant reasons to label Mrs. Boyd as being mistaken. it was raining [it wasn't] Madeleine was going down a water slide [obviously a mix up as Madeleine wasn't dressed for the water, most probably just going down the slide] Kate didn't mention her in her book [no doubt Kate didn't mention many people she met in her book] I think you should do more research.
It's amazing how many people think that the only things the McCanns did and the only words the McCanns spoke - are those recorded in the statements or in Kate's book.
I'm surprised they haven't decided that the only person who ever used the bathroom that week was Gerry- as no-one else has ever claimed to.
It's obvious that K&G would have chatted/exchanged pleasantries with other parents and that their children would have played with other children during the holiday. It's also obvious that there is no reason at all why they should mention every single time that happened.
IMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 08, 2016, 11:21:08 AM
It didn't rain all day on the Wednesday, there was a tennis lesson booked for the morning which was rescheduled for the afternoon, so it wasn't raining in the afternoon.
Mrs. Boyd described Madeleine as wearing a top and a skirt, now does that give you the impression that Madeleine was going down a water slide? It was more likely it was meant to read just slide as they were by the play area.
Gerry and Kate McCann took the children to the play area after lunch on the Wednesday.
The way you say that this family were asked to fake part of their holiday so that it fits in with your 'no one saw Madeleine after the Sunday' I find quite disgusting, you are calling this woman a liar.
no one is calling the woman a [she is mistaken] ....its a magazine story ....not a statement wrote in detail checked out...it could have been the sunday ...
3 three year olds don't play football for an hour...there are so many inaccuracy's its not proof of anything ...just a story
he was playing the day before maddie disappeared [2nd...then when he saw posters ...asked is that the girl i was playing with yesterday [how the hell would he recognise her from photo on poster... not her name though] how could he have seen the poster on the Thursday ..[3rd may]
26 55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
this story proves absolutely nothing...apart from being a fabrication by the magazine
no wonder she was of interest to the mccs though ...did they ever find her ...or did nothing come of it ...if they had remembered the exact day they were talking about ...that could have been the sunday.
BLOG 22 AUGUST 2007 DAY 111 I had another early morning drive to the airport- I could almost do it with my eyes shut. After dropping the kids off we had some photos taken with the results of a survey of UK and European parliament MP’s. The survey results, commissioned by the find Madeleine campaign, will be published tomorrow and demonstrate strong support for changes in European legislation following Madeleine’s abduction.
Kate is keen to get in touch with a very nice mum, who she spoke with at the toddler pool in the Ocean Club on Sunday 3rd June. She is sure you will remember the conversation and Kate would be grateful if you could get in touch at with her at campaign@findmadeleine.com
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 08, 2016, 12:00:10 PM
no one is calling the woman a [she is mistaken] ....its a magazine story ....not a statement wrote in detail checked out...it could have been the sunday ...
3 three year olds don't play football for an hour...there are so many inaccuracy's its not proof of anything ...just a story
he was playing the day before maddie disappeared [2nd...then when he saw posters ...asked is that the girl i was playing with yesterday [how the hell would he recognise her from photo on poster... not her name though] how could he have seen the poster on the Thursday ..[3rd may]
26 55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
this story proves absolutely nothing...apart from being a fabrication by the magazine
no wonder she was of interest to the mccs though ...did they ever find her ...or did nothing come of it ...if they had remembered the exact day they were talking about ...that could have been the sunday.
BLOG 22 AUGUST 2007 DAY 111 I had another early morning drive to the airport- I could almost do it with my eyes shut. After dropping the kids off we had some photos taken with the results of a survey of UK and European parliament MP’s. The survey results, commissioned by the find Madeleine campaign, will be published tomorrow and demonstrate strong support for changes in European legislation following Madeleine’s abduction.
Kate is keen to get in touch with a very nice mum, who she spoke with at the toddler pool in the Ocean Club on Sunday 3rd June. She is sure you will remember the conversation and Kate would be grateful if you could get in touch at with her at campaign@findmadeleine.com
Not necessarily the same 'very nice mum' whose son played with Madeleine later on in the week ... I'm sure there would have been lots of passing conversations with many other mums ... as one does when the children are occupied with something else.
Oh the problems of the world which have been resolved at the school gates!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 08, 2016, 02:05:56 PM
It's amazing how many people think that the only things the McCanns did and the only words the McCanns spoke - are those recorded in the statements or in Kate's book.
I'm surprised they haven't decided that the only person who ever used the bathroom that week was Gerry- as no-one else has ever claimed to.
It's obvious that K&G would have chatted/exchanged pleasantries with other parents and that their children would have played with other children during the holiday. It's also obvious that there is no reason at all why they should mention every single time that happened.
IMO
I do not think you have (a) read the Boyds' statement in full and (b) read what Kate McCann says about Wednesday in her book and (c) examined the creche records of that day and (d) examined the weather records for that day, nor do I think (e) that you have carefully compared and contrasted them all.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 08, 2016, 04:28:10 PM
Perhaps they were playing doubles on the tennis court against him and one of his tennis mates? (coz that's where he was apparently) 8)-)))
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 08, 2016, 05:16:16 PM
The crèche records for the 2nd of May, I am reading it correctly did the twins get taken to the crèche at 14.00 and Madeleine at 14.45?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 08, 2016, 05:30:36 PM
why did one of the mccs pick the twins from the creche ....
and then walk five or so minutes to pick maddie up and then double back on themselves with the twins ...
why didn't they pick maddie up first instead of walking the twins who would have been exhausted from play....unnecessarily
why did g mcc use the main door and k mcc use the rear....it could have been so they were not all seen together ...as 4...not 5
there routine changed after sunday ..children in creche then eating in....... apartment. 38 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
41 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?
41 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2016, 05:57:10 PM
why did one of the mccs pick the twins from the creche ....
and then walk five or so minutes to pick maddie up and then double back on themselves with the twins ...
why didn't they pick maddie up first instead of walking the twins who would have been exhausted from play....unnecessarily
why did g mcc use the main door and k mcc use the rear....it could have been so they were not all seen together ...as 4...not 5
there routine changed after sunday ..children in creche then eating in....... apartment. 38 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
41 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?
41 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrMUcwy4dO4
Not sure what you're talking about Xtina.
If you' mean at the end of afternoons, the routine was that the nannies took the kids to the Tapas for their high tea and parents joined them there.
With 3 young children, it was a shorter walk for them if Gerry nipped around to the front to then open the patio than if they all had to walk the extra distance.
Calligraphy? Do you mean handwriting?
Yes, there are a few instances when a nanny signed the form. Perhaps they simply forgot, or whoever had the sheet was busy and they left. If other parents had noticed that M had been signed out but wasn't there, it would have surfaced before now.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2016, 06:35:52 PM
I lost the will to live when I noticed that the supposedly all-important weather conditions in PdL most likely came from Faro airport...
Numerous people had stated that the weather in PdL that day was pleasant (in contrast to a few of the earlier days).
It doesn't even make sense...
The T7 were out in T-shirts and shorts at the Paraiso. And what would be the point of having tennis lessons / matches in force 4 winds?
I was thinking more in terms of the Perry Mason - Hamilton Burger moment. Maybe more appropriately Hercule Poirot-Inspector Japp moment. i.e. "I am right and the bumbling fuzz are wrong".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 08, 2016, 09:12:00 PM
Numerous people had stated that the weather in PdL that day was pleasant (in contrast to a few of the earlier days).
Let's have the benefit of four witnesses who were actually in Praia da Luz that day (Thursday), which give a rather different account of the weather that day from your summary above:
Matthew Oldfield
"Erm, it wasn't, erm, not specifically, it was a better day on the Thursday than it was on the Wednesday, because we had rain, and I think it was sort of warmer and bit more clear, I don't remember the, it may have been a bit cloudy, but I don't remember specifically".
Rachael Oldfield
“…probably that the weather had been a bit better that day and (inaudible) remember when the rest of us were there, we talked about Matt falling off the boat and Russell rescuing him and you know..."
Fiona Payne
“And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening
Jane Tanner
4078 “What was the weather like when you were there?”
[SNIPPED]
"I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans..."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 08, 2016, 09:26:57 PM
Mrs Boyd said he was playing tennis on the nearby court, then he finished and came over to Kate. Tennis was rained off in the morning and Kate went for a run with Matthew at lunchtime. Gerry's group played 2.30-3.30 and Kate's 3.30-4.30. Madeleine was at Minis from 2.45 onwards.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 09, 2016, 08:30:56 AM
If you' mean at the end of afternoons, the routine was that the nannies took the kids to the Tapas for their high tea and parents joined them there.
With 3 young children, it was a shorter walk for them if Gerry nipped around to the front to then open the patio than if they all had to walk the extra distance.
Calligraphy? Do you mean handwriting?
Yes, there are a few instances when a nanny signed the form. Perhaps they simply forgot, or whoever had the sheet was busy and they left. If other parents had noticed that M had been signed out but wasn't there, it would have surfaced before now.
With 3 young children, it was a shorter walk for them if Gerry nipped around to the front to then open the patio than if they all had to walk the extra distance.
so it was ok to trail them to the creche though and back taking around 15 mins ...but saved there little legs at the apartment ...i don't think so 8**8:/:
well if you look at the clip you would have known exactly what i meant ...anyway
twins were picked up creche near apartment ....then walked five or so minutes to pick up maddie ...then walked 5 or so minutes back to the apartment ...
why was maddie not picked up first..why did the twins [tired 2 year old] have to trek all the way there and back ...
when it would have been so much simpler to have picked maddie up first...maddie according to creche records was always picked up 5/10 minutes after twins...ok when dropping off ..but odd for collecting
Yes, there are a few instances when a nanny signed the form. Perhaps they simply forgot, or whoever had the sheet was busy and they left. If other parents had noticed that M had been signed out but wasn't there, it would have surfaced before now.
the Nanny cat should never have signed the forms ....this in itself makes it a mockery ....that maddie was defiantly there from the sunday onwards ....also to sign someone else's name ...is forgery isn't it ...
as for any of the other parents noticing ...that is just plain silly who is going to stand watching... who ....signs children in or out ....that is the nanny cat... job who it shows cannot be trusted.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 09, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
I lost the will to live when I noticed that the supposedly all-important weather conditions in PdL most likely came from Faro airport...
Numerous people had stated that the weather in PdL that day was pleasant (in contrast to a few of the earlier days).
It doesn't even make sense...
The T7 were out in T-shirts and shorts at the Paraiso. And what would be the point of having tennis lessons / matches in force 4 winds?
the weather came from Pdl ....or... Lagos ...not most likely came from faro ......only you keep mentioning Faro...kmcc says herself the weather was a little cool she should have brought a cardigan ....as for the rest of your post..
To: The Institute of Meteorology Lisbon
From: PJ Inspector Joao Carlos
Subject: Request for Information
Being necessary to the investigation NUIPC 201.070 GALGS I ask you to inform this police force about the requests noted below with regard to the following location: Praia da Luz, Lagos, Portugal on 3rd and 4th May 2007.
1. Time of sunset. 2. Direction and intensity of wind. 3. Cloudiness. 4. Rainfall 5. Daytime and nocturnal temperature. 6. Environmental humidity. 7. State of the sea. With compliments Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida
The meteorological information refers to the days 3 and 4 May/07 - meteorological conditions. - Analysis of synoptic situation.
- Results of numeric models.
- Result of observations.
- Certified copy of "State of the Weather and Sea in the Area of Praia da Luz" containing a description of wind, gusts, cloudiness, rainfall, temperature, humidity and the state of the sea.
If you mean 'at the end of afternoons, the routine was that the nannies took the kids to the Tapas for their high tea and parents joined them there.
You are misleading members of this forum.
You know perfectly well that I posted up the thread a clear statement of Emma Wilding that the children were collected 'from the creches' and not from some sort of 'super high tea' for all the creche children. It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it.
It might be better for you to say: "I prefer the evidence of those who say there was a high tea for all the crèche children at the Tapas restaurant every day to those who insist that there wasn't".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 09, 2016, 09:46:51 AM
Mrs Boyd said he was playing tennis on the nearby court, then he finished and came over to Kate. Tennis was rained off in the morning and Kate went for a run with Matthew at lunchtime. Gerry's group played 2.30-3.30 and Kate's 3.30-4.30. Madeleine was at Minis from 2.45 onwards.
Well it looks to me as if the twins were in the crèche and Madeleine was playing football with Mrs. Boyd's son until she too was taken to the crèche, Gerry coming over when finishing his tennis session.
Looks as though it wasn't raining either.
Correction to the above, apparently the twins were taken to the crèche at 14.40 so the twins were there when Madeleine played football with Mrs. Boyd's son, makes no difference, there was still time for Madeleine to have been playing with Mrs. Boyd's son before she went to the crèche and that it was not raining.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 10:44:27 AM
You know perfectly well that I posted up the thread a clear statement of Emma Wilding that the children were collected 'from the creches' and not from some sort of 'super high tea' for all the creche children. It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it.
It might be better for you to say: "I prefer the evidence of those who say there was a high tea for all the crèche children at the Tapas restaurant every day to those who insist that there wasn't".
Blonk:
Quote: "It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it." Unquote
How many people would have to be involved in this conspiracy to invent that the crèche children had high tea at the Tapas restaurant that week?
And no, I don't know of any evidence that disputes it. Do share.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 11:01:11 AM
It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it. (snip)
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Are you saying that the high tea cook is lying or mistaken about catering to the crèche children that week?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 09, 2016, 11:17:39 AM
You know perfectly well that I posted up the thread a clear statement of Emma Wilding that the children were collected 'from the creches' and not from some sort of 'super high tea' for all the creche children. It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it.
It might be better for you to say: "I prefer the evidence of those who say there was a high tea for all the crèche children at the Tapas restaurant every day to those who insist that there wasn't".
You are misleading members of this forum.
*&*%£
Sorry but that is so funny.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 09, 2016, 11:36:21 AM
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Are you saying that the high tea cook is lying or mistaken about catering to the crèche children that week?
the cook will not have remembered maddie specifically ....why should she.... she assumed she would have been there
she recognised her from the tv ..she did not know who the child was...or her name .the picture of a younger maddie ...so it could have been anyone of the children
Russel O'Brien ...knew maddie ...knew who maddie was... yet from his statement
cannot remember if maddie was there or not ...
that does suggest he wasn't used to seeing her there ...
or he would have noticed maddie..... as not being there
When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 09, 2016, 11:47:37 AM
the cook will not have remembered maddie specifically ....why should she.... she assumed she would have been there
she recognised her from the tv ..she did not know who the child was...or her name .the picture of a younger maddie ...so it could have been anyone of the children
Russel O'Brien ...knew maddie ...knew who maddie was... yet from his statement
cannot remember if maddie was there or not ...
that does suggest he wasn't used to seeing her there ...
or he would have noticed maddie..... as not being there
When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
Blonk stated:
Quote: "It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it." Unquote
Xtina, can you confirm that there was no high tea for any of the crèche children that week?
How many people would have had to have been lying (or very mistaken) to support the idea that the Tapas high tea routine didn't happen that week?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 12:16:45 PM
Quote: "It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it." Unquote
Xtina, can you confirm that there was no high tea for any of the crèche children that week?
How many people would have had to have been lying (or very mistaken) to support the idea that the Tapas high tea routine didn't happen that week?
EXCUSE ME .................causing confusement again....
this was your post
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Are you saying that the high tea cook is lying or mistaken about catering to the crèche children that week?
this was my reply to ...the above post
the cook will not have remembered maddie specifically ....why should she.... she assumed she would have been there
she recognised her from the tv ..she did not know who the child was...or her name .the picture of a younger maddie ...so it could have been anyone of the children
Russel O'Brien ...knew maddie ...knew who maddie was... yet from his statement
cannot remember if maddie was there or not ...
that does suggest he wasn't used to seeing her there ...
or he would have noticed maddie..... as not being there
When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 12:30:00 PM
EXCUSE ME .................causing confusement again....
this was your post
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Are you saying that the high tea cook is lying or mistaken about catering to the crèche children that week?
this was my reply to ...the above post
the cook will not have remembered maddie specifically ....why should she.... she assumed she would have been there
she recognised her from the tv ..she did not know who the child was...or her name .the picture of a younger maddie ...so it could have been anyone of the children
Russel O'Brien ...knew maddie ...knew who maddie was... yet from his statement
cannot remember if maddie was there or not ...
that does suggest he wasn't used to seeing her there ...
or he would have noticed maddie..... as not being there
When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
Are you confirming that there was no high tea served in the Tapas restaurant area that WEEK? That is what Blonk appears to be disputing.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 09, 2016, 12:30:38 PM
EXCUSE ME .................causing confusement again....
this was your post
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Are you saying that the high tea cook is lying or mistaken about catering to the crèche children that week?
this was my reply to ...the above post
the cook will not have remembered maddie specifically ....why should she.... she assumed she would have been there
she recognised her from the tv ..she did not know who the child was...or her name .the picture of a younger maddie ...so it could have been anyone of the children
Russel O'Brien ...knew maddie ...knew who maddie was... yet from his statement
cannot remember if maddie was there or not ...
that does suggest he wasn't used to seeing her there ...
or he would have noticed maddie..... as not being there
When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
Nice bit of ambiguity there on Rus's part. Is he saying he doesn't know if she was at the creche, or at the tea ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 12:33:45 PM
How would he as the the T7 took their children to the Paraiso for their high tea that day?
He (Rus) says - "When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
That would mean that she (Ella) was not with them at the beach - unless they only went to the beach for their tea and not for the afternoon.
Confusion, or what?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 01:02:57 PM
He (Rus) says - "When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
That would mean that she (Ella) was not with them at the beach - unless they only went to the beach for their tea and not for the afternoon.
Confusion, or what?
I don't understand your point.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 09, 2016, 01:13:26 PM
Never mind then.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 01:21:10 PM
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Are you saying that the high tea cook is lying or mistaken about catering to the crèche children that week?
WHICH crèche children?
The ones who were in the crèche at the Tapas restaurant?
Or the ones from the Mini-Club and all the other crèches as well?
You see how this is not as straightforward as it might seem
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 01:38:58 PM
Well it looks to me as if the twins were in the crèche and Madeleine was playing football with Mrs. Boyd's son until she too was taken to the crèche, Gerry coming over when finishing his tennis session.
Looks as though it wasn't raining either.
Correction to the above, apparently the twins were taken to the crèche at 14.40 so the twins were there when Madeleine played football with Mrs. Boyd's son, makes no difference, there was still time for Madeleine to have been playing with Mrs. Boyd's son before she went to the crèche and that it was not raining.
No-one has said when the courts dried but Dianne Webster mentions 'waiting' for them to dry. As play was resumed at 2.30pm perhaps that was when they were deemed dry enough. Matthew mentions going for a run with Kate at 'lunchtime' but couldn't be more specific as to time. Rachael wasn't well that day so did the run take place before the children were collected from creche? Kate says it did, then she and Gerry collected the children. Kate signed the twins out at 12.25 and Cat nanny signed Madeleine's sheet at 12.30. Kate says they were at the play area for an hour before taking the children back to their clubs.
There was an hour at the play area but two questions are still on the table. Was it dry enough for Gerry to play tennis with someone and why didn't the Boyds mention the twins?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 02:23:59 PM
No-one has said when the courts dried but Dianne Webster mentions 'waiting' for them to dry. As play was resumed at 2.30pm perhaps that was when they were deemed dry enough. Matthew mentions going for a run with Kate at 'lunchtime' but couldn't be more specific as to time. Rachael wasn't well that day so did the run take place before the children were collected from creche? Kate says it did, then she and Gerry collected the children. Kate signed the twins out at 12.25 and Cat nanny signed Madeleine's sheet at 12.30. Kate says they were at the play area for an hour before taking the children back to their clubs.
There was an hour at the play area but two questions are still on the table. Was it dry enough for Gerry to play tennis with someone and why didn't the Boyds mention the twins?
What about if Kate and Gerry took the children to the play area at half past one, Madeleine played football with Mrs Boyd's son, Gerry took the twins to the slide etc. Then at half past two, Kate takes the children to the crèche. Kate comes back Gerry finishes tennis, Mrs. Boyd see's Gerry put his arm around Kate.
I would think the rain would have stopped otherwise I can't see them being in the play area for an hour in the rain.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2016, 05:28:09 PM
GASP? Doesn't that stand for Goncalo Amaral Seeks Pounds/Pennies?
Is Blonk seriously intimating that Team Amaral never even checked whether there was ever high tea that week? GAD...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 09, 2016, 06:03:46 PM
I think this may relate more to The Last Photo than Mr Hall's video, but what the heck.
The Last Photo was being discussed in terms of the bougainvillea behind Gerry/Amelie/Madeleine, so I went out to check, at the end of Feb 2016, on that bougainvillea. And it was starting to bloom.
On my guest tour today, we wandered down the small alleyway to the south of blocks 4 and 5. From that position, one can see the tree where Madeleine was photographed in front of more bougainvillea. Today, that bougainvillea is also starting to bloom.
Roughly speaking, the only thing you can tell from the bougainvillea in the photos is that the photos were taken a little later than late Feb or early March. Beyond that, the bougainvillea seems to offer very little that can be used to date the photos.
To be clear, I cannot remember Mr Hall's video referring to the state of the bougainvillea.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 09, 2016, 06:21:31 PM
The ones who were in the crèche at the Tapas restaurant?
Or the ones from the Mini-Club and all the other crèches as well?
You see how this is not as straightforward as it might seem
All the children ate together at the tapas with their parents.
16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30. GM 10 May
"I think that was around, it was quite early, half four I think, five o'clock, erm, that was another sort of meeting point of the day really, where the creche would organise the tea and that was sort of outside the Tapas area, erm, and generally all of us would meet for that, all the kids had tea together." FP
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 10, 2016, 08:07:12 AM
What about if Kate and Gerry took the children to the play area at half past one, Madeleine played football with Mrs Boyd's son, Gerry took the twins to the slide etc. Then at half past two, Kate takes the children to the crèche. Kate comes back Gerry finishes tennis, Mrs. Boyd see's Gerry put his arm around Kate.
I would think the rain would have stopped otherwise I can't see them being in the play area for an hour in the rain.
I would think the rain would have stopped otherwise I can't see them being in the play area for an hour in the rain.
no they were sat round the pool in the blazing sun,,,,having the so called last picture taken
maddie/Amelia,,so the twins mccs all together
as already been said...no mention of twins,,,someone else said twins ..stand out
Mrs. Boyd see's Gerry put his arm around Kate.
oh pleeeeeeeeeez.......its not proof .....its not a statement......its a magazine story ....10 a penny
it doesn't make sense either why they did it ...unless it was for money
I think the problem you may have with what the Boyd's story has to tell us is that it flies in the face of the unlearned and badly researched conclusions detailed in Hall's apparently very boring You Tube effort at film making. Which for some reason which makes no sense at all to me ... you have chosen to associate yourself with.
If perchance they did sell their story ... at least they did no harm.
Which is not something which can be said of others who have built careers and reputations on the complete and absolute shambles of the investigation into the case of a missing child.
GET PAID FOR YOUR STORY – NO MATTER HOW BIG OR SMALL
**Snip Amaral was booted off the investigation after just five months in charge. But his book, The Truth About The Lie, became a bestseller in Portugal even though the country’s top lawman insists there’s no evidence to back up his accusations.
A legal source close to the McCanns believes Amaral could have made as much as £1million in total.
“Amaral made an astonishing amount of money from his campaign to discredit the McCanns,” said the source.
“I don’t know how he sleeps at night, knowing he’s cashing in on the tragic story of a three-year-old girl’s disappearance.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/goncalo-amaral-made-a-fortune-spouting-681722
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 10, 2016, 08:35:07 AM
What about if Kate and Gerry took the children to the play area at half past one, Madeleine played football with Mrs Boyd's son, Gerry took the twins to the slide etc. Then at half past two, Kate takes the children to the crèche. Kate comes back Gerry finishes tennis, Mrs. Boyd see's Gerry put his arm around Kate.
I would think the rain would have stopped otherwise I can't see them being in the play area for an hour in the rain.
Nope. Kate took the twins at 2.40 and Madeleine at 2.45, so she left the play area with three children. Gerry played tennis from 2.30 to 3.30
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 10, 2016, 09:46:47 AM
You know perfectly well that I posted up the thread a clear statement of Emma Wilding that the children were collected 'from the creches' and not from some sort of 'super high tea' for all the creche children. It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it.
It might be better for you to say: "I prefer the evidence of those who say there was a high tea for all the crèche children at the Tapas restaurant every day to those who insist that there wasn't".
You said: "You know perfectly well that I posted up the thread a clear statement of Emma Wilding that the children were collected 'from the creches'"
Who did not say that "the children were collected 'from the creches'".
What she actually said was: She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
She worked at the Toddlers 2 group (from further up in that statement): The witness clarifies that during the period between 29th April and 4th May she carried out her functions with a group of children staying at the resort aged between 2 and 3 years old called the Toddlers 2 group.
The witness says that Toddlers 2 is subdivided into three sub groups and each of these is under the responsibility of a child care worker, she is responsible for one of the sub groups.
Cat on crèche locations The age requirements of the various clubs are 3-11 months (baby Club), 12-23 months (Toddler Club), 24 months to 3 years (Toddler 2 Club), 3 to 5 years of age (Mini Club), 6 years to 9 years of age (Juniors Club), 10 years to 15 years of age (Kids Club) and from 14 to 17 years of age (Indies Club). The Baby Club and the Mini Club are situated directly on top of the 24-hour reception. The Toddler Club is located close to the tapas Bar and the others close to the "Millenium" Restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
What Emma Wilding said was:
With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants' teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents' care. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
Another nanny: That she only knows that Madeleine McCanns parents would come to pick her up, as with her siblings, between 17H15 and 17H30, at the location where all the children of the creche got together to have dinner, in the Tapas restaurant, related to the resort in question; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUSAN-OWEN.htm
Russell's rog: ... At the end of the morning session we generally had to pick them up from Ocean Club, at the end of the afternoon session the Nannies would bring them up on a little kind of plastic chain, all the kids would sort of hold onto a thing”.
1578 “Yes”. Reply “And they would walk them through that garden I described on Tuesday and they’d come across the road and go to high tea about five o’clock. . http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2016, 09:57:38 AM
Nope. Kate took the twins at 2.40 and Madeleine at 2.45, so she left the play area with three children. Gerry played tennis from 2.30 to 3.30
What do you mean 'nope' that fits in with what I said. Madeleine played football until half past two, then Kate took the twins and Madeleine back to the crèche whilst Gerry played tennis.
Mrs. Boyd doesn't say that Madeleine and the twins were there when Gerry finished playing tennis, just that she saw Gerry put his arm around Kate.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 10, 2016, 10:07:42 AM
Let's have the benefit of four witnesses who were actually in Praia da Luz that day (Thursday), which give a rather different account of the weather that day from your summary above:
[I've snipped out your extracts from the Oldfields to address your extracts from Fiona and Jane.]
Fiona Payne
“And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening
Jane Tanner
4078 “What was the weather like when you were there?”
[SNIPPED]
"I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans..."
Concerning Fiona, you appear to have missed out the preceding sentence: Reply 'That day was a really nice day, which is why I wanted to do the run. And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm'.
What you quote from JT concerned what she wore at dinnertime which no one disputes was nippy.
What she said about Thursday daytime was:
4078 “What was the weather like at that time when you remember seeing Madeleine on the beach then?” Reply “Erm, I think that day was a bit nicer actually. I think, I’m trying to, I’ve got pictures of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually, and I’ve got pictures of Evie and I’m trying to remember what she was wearing. It was a tee-shirt, so I don’t think it was, it wasn’t as, I think it was actually getting a bit nicer, it wasn’t as cold. No, yeah, because the Thursday was actually probably one of the first nice days, which is why I think we had gone later in the day, we took all the kids down to the beach because it was actually nicer weather. So, yeah, the Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 10, 2016, 10:27:39 AM
He (Rus) says - "When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group. We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.
That would mean that she (Ella) was not with them at the beach - unless they only went to the beach for their tea and not for the afternoon.
Confusion, or what?
She was signed out at 16:30.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 10, 2016, 10:40:59 AM
What do you mean 'nope' that fits in with what I said. Madeleine played football until half past two, then Kate took the twins and Madeleine back to the crèche whilst Gerry played tennis.
Mrs. Boyd doesn't say that Madeleine and the twins were there when Gerry finished playing tennis, just that she saw Gerry put his arm around Kate.
She gave the impression that Kate stayed on that sun lounger. Not that it's important, just someone leaping onto a bandwagon imo.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2016, 10:41:10 AM
She gave the impression that Kate stayed on that sun lounger. Not that it's important, just someone leaping onto a bandwagon imo.
Well I doubt if she stayed on the sun lounger, she obviously got up to take Madeleine and twins back to the crèche it is her signature on the crèche sheet.
I have no reason at all to doubt that this woman is telling the truth.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 10, 2016, 12:33:57 PM
Who did not say that "the children were collected 'from the creches'".
What she actually said was: She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. Then between 12.00 and 12.30 the parents would pick up the twins until 15.00. Between 17.00 and 17.30 the parents would collect the twins from the creche.
She worked at the Toddlers 2 group (from further up in that statement): The witness clarifies that during the period between 29th April and 4th May she carried out her functions with a group of children staying at the resort aged between 2 and 3 years old called the Toddlers 2 group.
The witness says that Toddlers 2 is subdivided into three sub groups and each of these is under the responsibility of a child care worker, she is responsible for one of the sub groups.
Cat on crèche locations The age requirements of the various clubs are 3-11 months (baby Club), 12-23 months (Toddler Club), 24 months to 3 years (Toddler 2 Club), 3 to 5 years of age (Mini Club), 6 years to 9 years of age (Juniors Club), 10 years to 15 years of age (Kids Club) and from 14 to 17 years of age (Indies Club). The Baby Club and the Mini Club are situated directly on top of the 24-hour reception. The Toddler Club is located close to the tapas Bar and the others close to the "Millenium" Restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
What Emma Wilding said was:
With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants' teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents' care. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
Another nanny: That she only knows that Madeleine McCanns parents would come to pick her up, as with her siblings, between 17H15 and 17H30, at the location where all the children of the creche got together to have dinner, in the Tapas restaurant, related to the resort in question; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUSAN-OWEN.htm
Russell's rog: ... At the end of the morning session we generally had to pick them up from Ocean Club, at the end of the afternoon session the Nannies would bring them up on a little kind of plastic chain, all the kids would sort of hold onto a thing”.
1578 “Yes”. Reply “And they would walk them through that garden I described on Tuesday and they’d come across the road and go to high tea about five o’clock. . http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Good post Carena - clearly showing that the claim that you are 'misleading members of this forum' (or ever would IMO) is patently untrue.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 10, 2016, 04:15:28 PM
You know perfectly well that I posted up the thread a clear statement of Emma Wilding that the children were collected 'from the creches' and not from some sort of 'super high tea' for all the creche children. It is disputed whether there was such a 'high tea' arrangement that week, and there is as you know evidence that contradicts it.
It might be better for you to say: "I prefer the evidence of those who say there was a high tea for all the crèche children at the Tapas restaurant every day to those who insist that there wasn't".
It is YOU Blonk, that is clearly misleading the readers of this Forum, as can be seen from Caranas VERY well researched answer to you
Carana is perfection personified in her approach to getting evetything absolutely correct. It must have taken her hours to collect and present her answer to you on this [above]
I know that it is not easy, but I think you owe Carana an apology, Blonk
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 10, 2016, 07:59:37 PM
It is YOU Blonk, that is clearly misleading the readers of this Forum, as can be seen from Caranas VERY well researched answer to you
Carana is perfection personified in her approach to getting evetything absolutely correct. It must have taken her hours to collect and present her answer to you on this [above]
I know that it is not easy, but I think you owe Carana an apology, Blonk
Thank you Sadie, that's very sweet, but no one is "perfection personified". LOL
The point only concerns the high tea for the crèche children and who took them there. There are numerous others to wade through.
@ Benice, thanks as well.
I find this one even more curious... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6981.msg313897#msg313897
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 11, 2016, 08:13:28 AM
I am disputing the fact that some say the Boyd's are mistaken.
Whether she did it for the money or not, it proves that Madeleine was there in the play area playing football with the Boyd's son.
Now please give me one good reason why I shouldn't believe this woman?
It was NOT raining as it was said by someone.
Nothing wrong with the crèche register, Madeleine was not in the crèche until 14.45.
Madeleine was not dressed for sliding down a water slide so obviously a mistake, should have meant whizzing down a slide.
Gerry played tennis, Madeleine and twins taken back to crèche, Mrs. Boyd sees Gerry after he played tennis.
you can dispute it as much as you like ....I mean who are you
the police was not interested in what the Boyd's had to say ....was they....
the Boyd's it seems are people of no interest ...
yet had information about the very last day... no statements ...nothing ...just a story in a mag...
it seems it just scraped through.... before all the top lawyers were on board ..or you would never have seen it
as for the creche records .....nanny cat ..signed maddie in/out of creche
hand writing expert In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 11, 2016, 08:51:04 AM
Good post Carena - clearly showing that the claim that you are 'misleading members of this forum' (or ever would IMO) is patently untrue.
The statements can not be took as gospel ....they are full if contradictions inconsistency's ...
there is one thing ....that is clear no one seems to have seen maddie much apart from her being shut away in the creche ...when all their children having fun with parents
even Diane Webster who's statement is like ....doesn't remember anything ....says
"So it might have been Sunday to Thursday. Err what else did I do, I went to the beach err on two or three occasions with err Fiona and Dave, well Fiona and the girls and sometimes Jane and Russell or, I remember Jane, I think some of the times the boys were off doing their windsurfing and sailing and whatever, err I know Kate and Gerry were very into the tennis err so I wouldn’t say that, that I saw a lot of all of them during the day, it was usually in the evening that we’d meet up.”
"Who else was there around that time?”
Reply
"Who else? Well it was, it was all of us err apart from Kate and Gerry and their children,
the mccs it seems did nothing with their children ....after the Sunday ....just had an obsession with tennis
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 11, 2016, 09:11:09 AM
you can dispute it as much as you like ....I mean who are you
the police was not interested in what the Boyd's had to say ....was they....
the Boyd's it seems are people of no interest ...
yet had information about the very last day... no statements ...nothing ...just a story in a mag...
it seems it just scraped through.... before all the top lawyers were on board ..or you would never have seen it
as for the creche records .....nanny cat ..signed maddie in/out of creche
hand writing expert In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?
You are saying that Mrs. Boyd is mistaken, in order to give the 'not seen since Sunday' nonsense authenticity, I mean who are you?
I am not concerned whether the police were interested in what she had to say or not, they probably didn't even interview her as there were many who came into contact with the McCann's who were not interviewed. As the PJ did not give the slightest inkling that they thought Madeleine had died before the 3rd of May this would be understandable.
I have seen the crèche records and the signature made by Kate McCann looks authentic to me. Please give a link to this calligraphy expert, why is this person from the PJ? There has been nothing noted that the PJ suspect Madeleine died before the 3rd of May either.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 11, 2016, 09:16:41 AM
The statements can not be took as gospel ....they are full if contradictions inconsistency's ...
there is one thing ....that is clear no one seems to have seen maddie much apart from her being shut away in the creche ...when all their children having fun with parents
even Diane Webster who's statement is like ....doesn't remember anything ....says
"So it might have been Sunday to Thursday. Err what else did I do, I went to the beach err on two or three occasions with err Fiona and Dave, well Fiona and the girls and sometimes Jane and Russell or, I remember Jane, I think some of the times the boys were off doing their windsurfing and sailing and whatever, err I know Kate and Gerry were very into the tennis err so I wouldn’t say that, that I saw a lot of all of them during the day, it was usually in the evening that we’d meet up.”
"Who else was there around that time?”
Reply
"Who else? Well it was, it was all of us err apart from Kate and Gerry and their children,
the mccs it seems did nothing with their children ....after the Sunday ....just had an obsession with tennis
Can I just answer the last part, the McCann's went to the resort to have a break as well as the children, Madeleine was asked [Kate's book] if she wanted to go to the crèche as if she didn't she didn't have to, as it turned out she loved it.
The children had been on holiday Easter time just before their trip to Portugal, they had been to the beach at that time.
There is nothing wrong with parents taking their children on holiday and having a break themselves. I don't find this selfish at all, the children had had one holiday and at that age they don't expect a great deal, the beach and playing with other children is wonderful for them.
The McCann's took the children to the beach, the weather wasn't exactly great. They watched Madeleine playing mini tennis, they played at the play area with them. Apart from this the crèche took them on outings and Madeleine had a trip on a boat.
It sounds as if the holiday was fine to me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2016, 09:43:15 AM
Can I just answer the last part, the McCann's went to the resort to have a break as well as the children, Madeleine was asked [Kate's book] if she wanted to go to the crèche as if she didn't she didn't have to, as it turned out she loved it.
The children had been on holiday Easter time just before their trip to Portugal, they had been to the beach at that time.
There is nothing wrong with parents taking their children on holiday and having a break themselves. I don't find this selfish at all, the children had had one holiday and at that age they don't expect a great deal, the beach and playing with other children is wonderful for them.
The McCann's took the children to the beach, the weather wasn't exactly great. They watched Madeleine playing mini tennis, they played at the play area with them. Apart from this the crèche took them on outings and Madeleine had a trip on a boat.
It sounds as if the holiday was fine to me.
The implication appears to be that parents who take advantage of holidays provided by firms with many years of experience in catering for families providing activities suitable for all ages from great grans to toddlers ... are unfeeling, uncaring louts who don't care a jot about their children.
All to get the boot into the McCanns. Sad really.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2016, 09:52:51 AM
I would recommend posters read the 8 th post on the following page which is one which especially McCann supporters should consider a reasoned response to.
Obviously, it is up to a poster to go on the link, as it isn't compulsory.
You are saying that Mrs. Boyd is mistaken, in order to give the 'not seen since Sunday' nonsense authenticity, I mean who are you?
I am not concerned whether the police were interested in what she had to say or not, they probably didn't even interview her as there were many who came into contact with the McCann's who were not interviewed. As the PJ did not give the slightest inkling that they thought Madeleine had died before the 3rd of May this would be understandable.
I have seen the crèche records and the signature made by Kate McCann looks authentic to me. Please give a link to this calligraphy expert, why is this person from the PJ? There has been nothing noted that the PJ suspect Madeleine died before the 3rd of May either.
no....i tell you who i am .........the one not gullible enough to believe in the abduction
could we have a thread of why the abduction could be believed what the proof was .........no because there is none ....apart from kg mcc saying it happened ....
well you believe the abduction story ....so obviously you will believe the magazine story as well .. %&5%£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 11, 2016, 09:57:47 AM
The statements can not be took as gospel ....they are full if contradictions inconsistency's ...
there is one thing ....that is clear no one seems to have seen maddie much apart from her being shut away in the creche ...when all their children having fun with parents
even Diane Webster who's statement is like ....doesn't remember anything ....says
"So it might have been Sunday to Thursday. Err what else did I do, I went to the beach err on two or three occasions with err Fiona and Dave, well Fiona and the girls and sometimes Jane and Russell or, I remember Jane, I think some of the times the boys were off doing their windsurfing and sailing and whatever, err I know Kate and Gerry were very into the tennis err so I wouldn’t say that, that I saw a lot of all of them during the day, it was usually in the evening that we’d meet up.”
"Who else was there around that time?”
Reply
"Who else? Well it was, it was all of us err apart from Kate and Gerry and their children,
the mccs it seems did nothing with their children ....after the Sunday ....just had an obsession with tennis
You are talking almost as if the McCanns and their friends were the only holidaymakers at the OC that week.
The idea that no other person/child saw or remembered Madeleine is absurd.
IMO there will be lots of other people who went home knowing that she was the little girl they saw having high tea, or at the play area or playing with their own children, or at the pool or at the tennis courts or at the Kiddies club or at the beach - or even just walking along the roads back and forth from 5A with her family.
What they wouldn't do when they got home - would be to contact the police at that time to say 'We thought we'd let you know that we saw Madeleine on such and such a day - because our crystal ball tells us that in the future there are going to be allegations by barmy conspiracy theorists that she disappeared on Sunday 29th April and was never seen again''. !!
The police didn't need to contact any of those holidaymakers who had left and (and whose details will be on file) - because they were satisfied with the statements from the independent witnesses they already had re Madeleine's whereabouts that week. However they are still there if any such confirmation is required. Not that it ever will be IMO.
AIMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 11, 2016, 10:02:54 AM
Can I just answer the last part, the McCann's went to the resort to have a break as well as the children, Madeleine was asked [Kate's book] if she wanted to go to the crèche as if she didn't she didn't have to, as it turned out she loved it.
The children had been on holiday Easter time just before their trip to Portugal, they had been to the beach at that time.
There is nothing wrong with parents taking their children on holiday and having a break themselves. I don't find this selfish at all, the children had had one holiday and at that age they don't expect a great deal, the beach and playing with other children is wonderful for them.
The McCann's took the children to the beach, the weather wasn't exactly great. They watched Madeleine playing mini tennis, they played at the play area with them. Apart from this the crèche took them on outings and Madeleine had a trip on a boat.
It sounds as if the holiday was fine to me.
why didn't the mccs take advantage of the free baby sitters then .....they did everything else
as for they didn't want to leave children with strangers ....the nanny's spent more time with them than the mccs....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 11, 2016, 10:10:52 AM
why didn't the mccs take advantage of the free baby sitters then .....they did everything else
as for they didn't want to leave children with strangers ....the nanny's spent more time with them than the mccs....
Actually they didn't. They could have had a 'free' breakfast every day - but chose not to.
IIRC there was no guarantee who would be babysitting as there was a rota system in place.
No way would I allow a virtual stranger to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children - no matter what their job was or how nice they seemed to be.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2016, 10:12:33 AM
I would recommend posters read the 8 th post on the following page which is one which especially McCann supporters should consider a reasoned response to.
Obviously, it is up to a poster to go on the link, as it isn't compulsory.
Hmmm ... I was actually a bit more interested in a post just a little bit further down where a little "in" joke about this forum has been published. Just a little obsessive and disrespectful don't you think?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2016, 10:14:05 AM
Hmmm ... I was actually a bit more interested in a post just a little bit further down where a little "in" joke about this forum has been published. Just a little obsessive and disrespectful don't you think?
Try responding with logic to post 8 on that page.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2016, 10:17:29 AM
Actually they didn't. They could have had a 'free' breakfast every day - but chose not to.
IIRC there was no guarantee who would be babysitting as there was a rota system in place.
No way would I allow a virtual stranger to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children - no matter what their job was or how nice they seemed to be.
You would definitely trust these two to look after your year old, wouldn't you ... both respectable members of society in responsible jobs. But you would have been wrong.
You would definitely trust these two to look after your year old, wouldn't you ... both respectable members of society in responsible jobs. But you would have been wrong.
You would definitely trust these two to look after your year old, wouldn't you ... both respectable members of society in responsible jobs. But you would have been wrong.
Yeah, my initial impression is they look trustworthy and respectful. Isn't this the same problem here too, so many on both sides of this debate commenting on the McCanns behaviour. For example, they appear so cold or on the other side - they are responsible, caring doctors and couldn't possibly do such things. No-one really knows, do they?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2016, 10:31:28 AM
I responded to what caught my eye on that page ... if I wish to start responding to stuck records there as well I will sign in to do so.
However it seems there is a very underhand individual familiar with our forum posting there and making nauseous comment, which s/he seems to find highly amusing.
I find it very revealing as well as exceedingly tiresome.
Why should I or anyone wish to discuss an idiot post and poster on amazon? If it suits you to do so, fine by me ... but I'm quite happy confining comment to what passes for debate here.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2016, 10:34:37 AM
I responded to what caught my eye on that page ... if I wish to start responding to stuck records there as well I will sign in to do so.
However it seems there is a very underhand individual familiar with our forum posting there and making nauseous comment, which s/he seems to find highly amusing.
I find it very revealing as well as exceedingly tiresome.
Why should I or anyone wish to discuss an idiot post and poster on amazon? If it suits you to do so, fine by me ... but I'm quite happy confining comment to what passes for debate here.
Stuck record, NO.
The stuck record is with you and your fellows which stick to the 'abduction' like flies to a pile of brown stuff.
As to tiresome, you feeble excuses are par for the course.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2016, 10:44:51 AM
Can I just answer the last part, the McCann's went to the resort to have a break as well as the children, Madeleine was asked [Kate's book] if she wanted to go to the crèche as if she didn't she didn't have to, as it turned out she loved it.
The children had been on holiday Easter time just before their trip to Portugal, they had been to the beach at that time.
There is nothing wrong with parents taking their children on holiday and having a break themselves. I don't find this selfish at all, the children had had one holiday and at that age they don't expect a great deal, the beach and playing with other children is wonderful for them.
The McCann's took the children to the beach, the weather wasn't exactly great. They watched Madeleine playing mini tennis, they played at the play area with them. Apart from this the crèche took them on outings and Madeleine had a trip on a boat.
It sounds as if the holiday was fine to me.
The McCanns had their 'support network' with them in Ireland. Lots of aunties and friends to help with the children. Read the statements of family and friends and see just how many of them looked after the McCann children, in addition to them going to nursery. Remember how Kate took her friends away from the searching for her daughter?
When lunchtime came, Gerry and I were in the middle of another meeting when we discovered there was no one around to collect Sean and Amelie. We had to interrupt proceedings and go to the Toddler Club ourselves, phoning round our friends and family en route to try to get somebody who wasn’t too far away to come back and give them their lunch. Kate's Book.
On the first day they booked the children into the childcare; each day, each available session. The next morning they booked tennis lessons for each day of the coming week, two in the mornings and one in the afternoons. It doesn't sound like they were expecting to spend time with their daughter if she decided not to attend the kid's club. If she had a morning off she could watch two hours of tennis. If she had the afternoon off she could look after herself and watch both parents having a lesson.
The Classic and Private lessons are extras at present, having to be paid for. The kid's clubs at present are free if you use them for just mornings or just afternoons. Using them for both incurs a hefty (imo) charge of £180 per child. Did the McCanns pay for these extras? I don't see why they would be excused. http://www.markwarner.co.uk/sun-holidays/greece/lakitira/tennis
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 11, 2016, 10:47:53 AM
Deleting Insults and Off Topic Posts from now on.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 11, 2016, 10:54:32 AM
The McCanns had their 'support network' with them in Ireland. Lots of aunties and friends to help with the children. Read the statements of family and friends and see just how many of them looked after the McCann children, in addition to them going to nursery. Remember how Kate took her friends away from the searching for her daughter?
When lunchtime came, Gerry and I were in the middle of another meeting when we discovered there was no one around to collect Sean and Amelie. We had to interrupt proceedings and go to the Toddler Club ourselves, phoning round our friends and family en route to try to get somebody who wasn’t too far away to come back and give them their lunch. Kate's Book.
On the first day they booked the children into the childcare; each day, each available session. The next morning they booked tennis lessons for each day of the coming week, two in the mornings and one in the afternoons. It doesn't sound like they were expecting to spend time with their daughter if she decided not to attend the kid's club. If she had a morning off she could watch two hours of tennis. If she had the afternoon off she could look after herself and watch both parents having a lesson.
The Classic and Private lessons are extras at present, having to be paid for. The kid's clubs at present are free if you use them for just mornings or just afternoons. Using them for both incurs a hefty (imo) charge of £180 per child. Did the McCanns pay for these extras? I don't see why they would be excused. http://www.markwarner.co.uk/sun-holidays/greece/lakitira/tennis
Really don't know what you are trying to say here G-unit.
So they had family around them on the Ireland holiday, so what? The children had a nice holiday, the family probably enjoyed having the children, they got to see them and play with them. Haven't you visited family and let them play with your children? Doesn't mean the parents weren't there too does it?
What meeting were the McCann's in? Police? well of course they would want someone to see to the twins if they were discussing Madeleine and how to find her.
Yes they booked tennis lessons, they were enjoying their holiday too, I should imagine that if Madeleine didn't want to go to the crèche then one of them would have cancelled their tennis. There is no statement from the nannies saying that Madeleine was unhappy going to the crèche, quite the opposite.
No idea if the McCann's paid for the extras I should imagine so.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2016, 10:59:47 AM
Yeah, my initial impression is they look trustworthy and respectful. Isn't this the same problem here too, so many on both sides of this debate commenting on the McCanns behaviour. For example, they appear so cold or on the other side - they are responsible, caring doctors and couldn't possibly do such things. No-one really knows, do they?
The fact of the McCanns being doctors cuts absolutely no ice as far as I am concerned. How they look physically or how the self appointed experts interpret their body language is of even less concern.
We have recently been appalled by the revelations that children are not safe from abuse either in their homes or public places from those employed to look after them. A more extreme case than Michael and Lara Chase (described by detectives as 'every parent's worst nightmare') being the beheading of a Russian child by her nanny.
In all the cases brought to light and prosecuted there was evidence enough to secure convictions; when is the penny going to drop that despite the most intrusive and intensive scrutiny in history there is not one shred of evidence against either of the Drs McCann or their friends.
For going on nine years now people like Richard Hall have rehashed one nonsense after another. Being charitable -speculation - but in reality one untruth piled on another. The 'fact' that the children were on their own is it ... but quite an industry has been established all based on the fabrications put about by a failing investigation ... "100% DNA" - cadaver dogs 'alerting' only to McCann in a town where no-one had ever died or had a bleed.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 11, 2016, 11:01:45 AM
no....i tell you who i am .........the one not gullible enough to believe in the abduction
could we have a thread of why the abduction could be believed what the proof was .........no because there is none ....apart from kg mcc saying it happened ....
well you believe the abduction story ....so obviously you will believe the magazine story as well .. %&5%£
You are going off topic xtina.
I have no reason to disbelieve what Mrs. Boyd said.
Yes I believe the abduction story. You believe Madeleine wasn't seen after the Sunday !!!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2016, 11:11:47 AM
The implication appears to be that parents who take advantage of holidays provided by firms with many years of experience in catering for families providing activities suitable for all ages from great grans to toddlers ... are unfeeling, uncaring louts who don't care a jot about their children.
All to get the boot into the McCanns. Sad really.
Buyer beware. Not everyone raves about Mark Warner;
The childcare, especially for our nearly 3 year old, was way below good standards (in our opinion). The evening club in particular is appalling. Babies and toddlers are now in the same room which does not work. Many of the nannies seem bored, annoyed with the kids and frankly disinterested. I went to pick up my daughter one night and found that she had been strapped into a double buggy next to a screaming 14 month year old because she was "making too much noise." Instead of taking time to settle the very young kids, they are just expected to lie in beds and sleep in a strange room with babies crying. I am appalled that this is allowed to happen. Many many other parents were also saying the childcare was not up tp scratch, and if the club was in the UK I would have reported them to Ofsted without a doubt.
The site management was exceptionally poor. Eleven year old children were able to sign themselves out of childrens clubs and wander the site on their own. https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187141-d615666-r137393190-San_Lucianu_Beach_Resort_Mark_Warner-Bastia_Haute_Corse_Corsica.html#
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on March 11, 2016, 11:23:02 AM
The fact of the McCanns being doctors cuts absolutely no ice as far as I am concerned. How they look physically or how the self appointed experts interpret their body language is of even less concern.
We have recently been appalled by the revelations that children are not safe from abuse either in their homes or public places from those employed to look after them. A more extreme case than Michael and Lara Chase (described by detectives as 'every parent's worst nightmare') being the beheading of a Russian child by her nanny.
In all the cases brought to light and prosecuted there was evidence enough to secure convictions; when is the penny going to drop that despite the most intrusive and intensive scrutiny in history there is not one shred of evidence against either of the Drs McCann or their friends.
For going on nine years now people like Richard Hall have rehashed one nonsense after another. Being charitable -speculation - but in reality one untruth piled on another. The 'fact' that the children were on their own is it ... but quite an industry has been established all based on the fabrications put about by a failing investigation ... "100% DNA" - cadaver dogs 'alerting' only to McCann in a town where no-one had ever died or had a bleed.
Good points I think. The Richard Hall documentaries have just got progressively worse - say that in some ignorance as only got 15 mins in with this one, but 100% safe to assume. What does interest me about his documentaries is his scattergun like approach. Maybe somewhere in there is a nugget of gold, but the mass conspiracy here is obv crazy talk...
The only evidence and I think by wiki definition it can be called that are the dog alerts, which can't be presented in court unless corroborated by forensics I believe. So, based on that I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt. There are many cases like this where it has turned out popular prejudices are completely wrong...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2016, 11:43:20 AM
The fact of the McCanns being doctors cuts absolutely no ice as far as I am concerned. How they look physically or how the self appointed experts interpret their body language is of even less concern.
We have recently been appalled by the revelations that children are not safe from abuse either in their homes or public places from those employed to look after them. A more extreme case than Michael and Lara Chase (described by detectives as 'every parent's worst nightmare') being the beheading of a Russian child by her nanny.
In all the cases brought to light and prosecuted there was evidence enough to secure convictions; when is the penny going to drop that despite the most intrusive and intensive scrutiny in history there is not one shred of evidence against either of the Drs McCann or their friends.
For going on nine years now people like Richard Hall have rehashed one nonsense after another. Being charitable -speculation - but in reality one untruth piled on another. The 'fact' that the children were on their own is it ... but quite an industry has been established all based on the fabrications put about by a failing investigation ... "100% DNA" - cadaver dogs 'alerting' only to McCann in a town where no-one had ever died or had a bleed.
There's not one shred of evidence against anyone else either. It would seem that someone, by luck or judgement, has committed a perfect crime. There's not even evidence showing what the crime was.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 11, 2016, 12:03:15 PM
yes perfect crime to this very day
no DNA ....if maddie had been in that apartment ....on the third of may there would have been
who knows how long they had to prepare
to me what RH shows ...is there is no concrete evidence maddie was seen
even the last photo ...maddie was wearing her sunday best ....
as described in k mcc book expensive clothing....just to get stained with paint felt tips etc etc
why did they wait three weeks to show that photo
why did g mcc deny having it ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 11, 2016, 12:23:12 PM
There's not one shred of evidence against anyone else either. It would seem that someone, by luck or judgement, has committed a perfect crime. There's not even evidence showing what the crime was.
Add into the mix that others were in and out of the flat, leading up to the disappearance and then more people into the aprt when the alarm was raised and finally the police failure to seal the scene. The scene was already contaminated not by just the people who were present that night, but police mistakes....that photo of the forensics lady not wearing gloves and allowing the place to be rented out shortly after. The perfect crime here imo would simply be to lure Madeleine to the window and then drive off...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 11, 2016, 12:27:04 PM
Really don't know what you are trying to say here G-unit.
So they had family around them on the Ireland holiday, so what? The children had a nice holiday, the family probably enjoyed having the children, they got to see them and play with them. Haven't you visited family and let them play with your children? Doesn't mean the parents weren't there too does it?
What meeting were the McCann's in? Police? well of course they would want someone to see to the twins if they were discussing Madeleine and how to find her.
Yes they booked tennis lessons, they were enjoying their holiday too, I should imagine that if Madeleine didn't want to go to the crèche then one of them would have cancelled their tennis. There is no statement from the nannies saying that Madeleine was unhappy going to the crèche, quite the opposite.
No idea if the McCann's paid for the extras I should imagine so.
The McCanns were in a meeting with British Embassy press officer Andy Bowes, and Alex Woolfall, the PR crisis-management specialist from Bell Pottinger (UK). I assume they were preparing Kate for her televised appeal for Madeleine's return which was made at 2pm 7th May. There was a script to write.
The McCanns had two breaks at Center Parcs the previous year. I wonder if they used the mandatory two baby-sitters there?
We run a professional babysitting service every day and evening. The minimum duration is two and a half hours. There is a minimum age of 3 months and if you have 3 children under 5 years or more than 4 children, you will require more than one babysitter. Please note this service can only be booked via our Contact Centre on 03448 267751 or whilst you are on the village. http://help.centerparcs.co.uk/app/answers/detail/a_id/391/kw/childcare%20costs/session/L3RpbWUvMTQ1NzY5Njg4Ni9zaWQvUlRDdU5iTG0%3D
There's no record of when the McCanns played tennis on Monday 30th, but the children didn't go to their clubs until 15,15 (MM) and 15,25 (twins). Madeleine was signed out again at 15.25, putting Kate in two places at once. She doesn't mention this anomaly at all.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 11, 2016, 01:36:18 PM
Buyer beware. Not everyone raves about Mark Warner;
The childcare, especially for our nearly 3 year old, was way below good standards (in our opinion). The evening club in particular is appalling. Babies and toddlers are now in the same room which does not work. Many of the nannies seem bored, annoyed with the kids and frankly disinterested. I went to pick up my daughter one night and found that she had been strapped into a double buggy next to a screaming 14 month year old because she was "making too much noise." Instead of taking time to settle the very young kids, they are just expected to lie in beds and sleep in a strange room with babies crying. I am appalled that this is allowed to happen. Many many other parents were also saying the childcare was not up tp scratch, and if the club was in the UK I would have reported them to Ofsted without a doubt.
The site management was exceptionally poor. Eleven year old children were able to sign themselves out of childrens clubs and wander the site on their own. https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187141-d615666-r137393190-San_Lucianu_Beach_Resort_Mark_Warner-Bastia_Haute_Corse_Corsica.html#
What is the relevance of this review of a resort in France in 2012 to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Portuguese resort in 2007?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2016, 03:07:31 PM
What is the relevance of this review of a resort in France in 2012 to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Portuguese resort in 2007?
I'm just pointing out that not everyone has been impressed by the quality of the childcare Mark Warner provide. Kate didn't want strangers baby sitting her children but she had no qualms about the Kid's Clubs.
Looking at the record keeping I'm not impressed either. The signing in and out procedures were very lax and they're important in case of fire and other emergency evacuation situations and for insurance purposes. On a couple of occasions the Minis had seven children to one nanny, which seems a lot if an emergency occurs. The baby club was nearby and had one nanny to two babies, so their hands would be full. There was a supervisor and another Mini nanny, but if she had seven children also that was three people moving fourteen children out of the building. The sheets would have been important to check they had brought all the children out. On 2nd May Lily Payne was signed out at lunchtime but not signed in. How many times were children present but not recorded? We don't know, but once is too often.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 11, 2016, 03:33:18 PM
I don't suppose we could possibly get back On Topic, could we?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 11, 2016, 04:15:56 PM
I'm just pointing out that not everyone has been impressed by the quality of the childcare Mark Warner provide. Kate didn't want strangers baby sitting her children but she had no qualms about the Kid's Clubs.
Looking at the record keeping I'm not impressed either. The signing in and out procedures were very lax and they're important in case of fire and other emergency evacuation situations and for insurance purposes. On a couple of occasions the Minis had seven children to one nanny, which seems a lot if an emergency occurs. The baby club was nearby and had one nanny to two babies, so their hands would be full. There was a supervisor and another Mini nanny, but if she had seven children also that was three people moving fourteen children out of the building. The sheets would have been important to check they had brought all the children out. On 2nd May Lily Payne was signed out at lunchtime but not signed in. How many times were children present but not recorded? We don't know, but once is too often.
It may have escaped your notice but until you have used a specific service you're probably not in the best position to pass judgement on it. Would the McCanns have been aware of any of these supposed lapses? Are you now going to use these supposed lapses as more fodder for McCann bashing?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2016, 05:34:15 PM
It may have escaped your notice but until you have used a specific service you're probably not in the best position to pass judgement on it. Would the McCanns have been aware of any of these supposed lapses? Are you now going to use these supposed lapses as more fodder for McCann bashing?
I don't need to use something to decide if it's good or bad. Mark Warner's children's clubs look like an accident waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 11, 2016, 06:04:07 PM
I don't need to use something to decide if it's good or bad. Mark Warner's children's clubs look like an accident waiting to happen.
@)(++(* @)(++(* Of course you don't. Far better to take the word of an online reviewer writing about another resort altogether and decide they must all be rubbish, yes that's logical and fair. But the point I was making was that the McCanns would not have necessarily had fore knowledge of these alleged failings (not being blessed with your supreme insight and acuity).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2016, 06:07:20 PM
@)(++(* @)(++(* Of course you don't. Far better to take the word of an online reviewer writing about another resort altogether and decide they must all be rubbish, yes that's logical and fair. But the point I was making was that the McCanns would not have necessarily had fore knowledge of these alleged failings (not being blessed with your supreme insight and acuity).
Basically the mccanns had no common sense or logic in childcare.
That is the bottom line.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 11, 2016, 06:17:15 PM
Basically the mccanns had no common sense or logic in childcare.
That is the bottom line.
So, putting them into a Mark Warner holiday club demonstrates no sense or logic? Tell that to the millions of parents who have done the same thing then. Your posts demonstrate very little sense or logic IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2016, 06:19:11 PM
So, putting them into a Mark Warner holiday club demonstrates no sense or logic? Tell that to the millions of parents who have done the same thing then. Your posts demonstrate very little sense or logic IMO.
How many parents have left their children for several hours in unlocked accommodation by themselves ?
The illogical is yours.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 11, 2016, 06:49:21 PM
Deleting Insults here as well, in a minute.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Angelo222 on March 11, 2016, 07:13:15 PM
It is YOU Blonk, that is clearly misleading the readers of this Forum, as can be seen from Caranas VERY well researched answer to you
Carana is perfection personified in her approach to getting evetything absolutely correct. It must have taken her hours to collect and present her answer to you on this [above]
I know that it is not easy, but I think you owe Carana an apology, Blonk
i think that's a little odd to spend hours preparing for one post ...
rather obsessive if true...and how you can get perfection and everything absolutely correct when the statements are full of inconsistencies ...i don't know how you work that out
so your post in its self ...as declaring the post mentioned as true 100% correct ...is misleading
i don't think its your place to ask for apologies either
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 12, 2016, 08:45:20 AM
this to me is a prime example of how people can... think... they saw maddie ....
.not that they did ...
they just assumed she was there.
R O statement
Madeleine will have been there. Erm, but if I’m honest, I can’t, you know, hand on heart, say, when I picked Ella up and took her down to the beach before the Nannies took her up to, erm, for high tea, that I saw Madeleine there. But I got in early enough to get Ella out before the end of, well, you know, arrived just before they actually left to go up, so by rights she should have been there”. 1578 “Okay”. Reply “And I think, I, I can’t remember what I said in my original statement on that one, to be fair. Erm, but, erm, my gut feeling is that she was there when I picked Ella up. But, as I say, you know, hand on heart, that’s not, that’s not a”. 1578 “Yeah, you do say you can’t say if you saw Madeleine”. Reply “No, I think now it’s, I can’t honestly say that Madeleine was there when I picked Ella up at five
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2016, 09:04:05 AM
this to me is a prime example of how people can... think... they saw maddie ....
.not that they did ...
they just assumed she was there.
R O statement
Madeleine will have been there. Erm, but if I’m honest, I can’t, you know, hand on heart, say, when I picked Ella up and took her down to the beach before the Nannies took her up to, erm, for high tea, that I saw Madeleine there. But I got in early enough to get Ella out before the end of, well, you know, arrived just before they actually left to go up, so by rights she should have been there”. 1578 “Okay”. Reply “And I think, I, I can’t remember what I said in my original statement on that one, to be fair. Erm, but, erm, my gut feeling is that she was there when I picked Ella up. But, as I say, you know, hand on heart, that’s not, that’s not a”. 1578 “Yeah, you do say you can’t say if you saw Madeleine”. Reply “No, I think now it’s, I can’t honestly say that Madeleine was there when I picked Ella up at five
Are you saying that Richard Hall asserts that the Amaral investigation failed in the elementary diligence of ascertaining the presence and existence of the missing child? and you are trying to 'prove' it?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 12, 2016, 09:07:07 AM
Actually they didn't. They could have had a 'free' breakfast every day - but chose not to.
IIRC there was no guarantee who would be babysitting as there was a rota system in place.
No way would I allow a virtual stranger to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children - no matter what their job was or how nice they seemed to be.
they didn't take advantage of the breakfast probably because ...it could have shown maddie was not there
as for they would not have known who would have been babysitting ....that would also go for the creche [all the nannies would have same checks/qualifications etc]
no way would you allow them alone in your apartment .....but it would be OK in a creche ...same thing...you are still leaving them
we are not on about what you would do anyway ....we are on about the mccs ..who would rather leave them with the the dangers of what could happen and did ...
than have the same trained people ...who had them during the day.
again it could have shown ...maddie was not there
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 12, 2016, 09:24:30 AM
Are you saying that Richard Hall asserts that the Amaral investigation failed in the elementary diligence of ascertaining the presence and existence of the missing child? and you are trying to 'prove' it?
the missing child by the way has a name ....maddie
as for proving it ...proving what exactly ...
the creche records being a mockery ...
people recognising maddie from a photo eighteen months ...aged two and a half
statements changed ...
the last photo being handed in three weeks later ...
no one seeing much of mccs during the day ....
why they picked twins up first from creche ...and then walk all the way to pick maddie up ..then back again
the mccs using seprate entrance's to apartmen
etc......................etc................etc
well it no good asking you to prove the abduction ...is it ..because the proof of that is zero.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2016, 09:34:55 AM
they didn't take advantage of the breakfast probably because ...it could have shown maddie was not there
...
the journey from 5a to the millennium is neither easy nor pleasant for parents with 3 kids that age.
Amelie and sean would need to be carried there and back. the road is 2-way but it happens to be an integral part of the luz 1-way traffic system, so it can be busy. that means someone holding on to madeleine while carrying 1 of the twins.
baptista was convenient, so it was logical.
it would have been different if they had a double buggy or 2 single buggies for the twins.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 12, 2016, 09:53:31 AM
the journey from 5a to the millennium is neither easy nor pleasant for parents with 3 kids that age.
Amelie and sean would need to be carried there and back. the road is 2-way but it happens to be an integral part of the luz 1-way traffic system, so it can be busy. that means someone holding on to madeleine while carrying 1 of the twins.
baptista was convenient, so it was logical.
it would have been different if they had a double buggy or 2 single buggies for the twins.
yes agreed ...although they could have hired a buggy ......if they had wanted to go
it was in reply to Bernice ......on reply post 831
who said they didn't take advantage of the free breakfast ...i mentioned the alternative
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 12, 2016, 10:12:22 AM
they didn't take advantage of the breakfast probably because ...it could have shown maddie was not there
as for they would not have known who would have been babysitting ....that would also go for the creche [all the nannies would have same checks/qualifications etc]
no way would you allow them alone in your apartment .....but it would be OK in a creche ...same thing...you are still leaving them
we are not on about what you would do anyway ....we are on about the mccs ..who would rather leave them with the the dangers of what could happen and did ...
than have the same trained people ...who had them during the day.
again it could have shown ...maddie was not there
If you really can't see the difference between leaving your children alone in an apartment for hours with someone you hardly know - and leaving your children in a creche with other children, nannies and parents around - then that's not my problem.
Why do you think Amaral and his team missed the 'fact' that Madeleine apparently disappeared on the 29th and not the 3rd May as they believed? If it's so obvious to armchair detectives - then why wasn't it to the PJ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2016, 10:17:35 AM
the missing child by the way has a name ....maddie
as for proving it ...proving what exactly ...
the creche records being a mockery ...
people recognising maddie from a photo eighteen months ...aged two and a half
statements changed ...
the last photo being handed in three weeks later ...
no one seeing much of mccs during the day ....
why they picked twins up first from creche ...and then walk all the way to pick maddie up ..then back again
the mccs using seprate entrance's to apartmen
etc......................etc................etc
well it no good asking you to prove the abduction ...is it ..because the proof of that is zero.
If Madeleine had been allowed to return home in the company of her family there would not have been a single 'suspicious' instance in the list you have given us.
Only febrile imagination makes normal everyday, insignificant occurrences so ... and even that takes a measure of ingenuity.
The people who are the main protagonists in the crime of kidnapping Madeleine McCann ... are the invisible ones ... they are those who are never mentioned or acknowledged. No-one needs to manufacture a ludicrous conspiracy theory around 'last' photographs or 'clones' or why a family chose to breakfast together as part of their routine.
The person or people who abducted Madeleine are the guilty ones here. I have no idea why there are those who have taken nearly nine years now out of their lives to deliberately play that fact down.
Fortunately, the Portuguese and the British police take a different view. They have no interest in the McCann family. Neither do they have any interest in their holiday companions. They are searching for those guilty of this crime.
I think at the end of it all the conspiracy theorists such as Richard Hall will have to find something new to obsess about.
Don't know if it has escaped your notice but quite a few appear to have done so already ... and you appear to be rather banging a single drum in his support. Of course that could well be because few have had the stamina to sit through four hours of his speculations.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 12, 2016, 10:20:15 AM
this to me is a prime example of how people can... think... they saw maddie ....
.not that they did ...
they just assumed she was there.
R O statement
Madeleine will have been there. Erm, but if I’m honest, I can’t, you know, hand on heart, say, when I picked Ella up and took her down to the beach before the Nannies took her up to, erm, for high tea, that I saw Madeleine there. But I got in early enough to get Ella out before the end of, well, you know, arrived just before they actually left to go up, so by rights she should have been there”. 1578 “Okay”. Reply “And I think, I, I can’t remember what I said in my original statement on that one, to be fair. Erm, but, erm, my gut feeling is that she was there when I picked Ella up. But, as I say, you know, hand on heart, that’s not, that’s not a”. 1578 “Yeah, you do say you can’t say if you saw Madeleine”. Reply “No, I think now it’s, I can’t honestly say that Madeleine was there when I picked Ella up at five
But if he'd agreed to lie for the McCanns and help them to cover up Madeleine's disappearance - then why didn't he just say ''Yes I definitely saw her''? Job done.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 12, 2016, 10:34:28 AM
But if he'd agreed to lie for the McCanns and help them to cover up Madeleine's disappearance - then why didn't he just say ''Yes I definitely saw her''? Job done.
'Job done' benice ?
Interesting choice of phrase to describe witness statements, when the witess statements are to say the least, INCONSISTENT.
....and of course we do not know who has told the truth and who has lied. &%+((£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2016, 01:21:48 PM
this to me is a prime example of how people can... think... they saw maddie ....
.not that they did ...
they just assumed she was there.
R O statement
Madeleine will have been there. Erm, but if I’m honest, I can’t, you know, hand on heart, say, when I picked Ella up and took her down to the beach before the Nannies took her up to, erm, for high tea, that I saw Madeleine there. But I got in early enough to get Ella out before the end of, well, you know, arrived just before they actually left to go up, so by rights she should have been there”. 1578 “Okay”. Reply “And I think, I, I can’t remember what I said in my original statement on that one, to be fair. Erm, but, erm, my gut feeling is that she was there when I picked Ella up. But, as I say, you know, hand on heart, that’s not, that’s not a”. 1578 “Yeah, you do say you can’t say if you saw Madeleine”. Reply “No, I think now it’s, I can’t honestly say that Madeleine was there when I picked Ella up at five
That sounds to me like someone who is being deliberately vague. He is also vague about time. The sheet was signed at 4.30pm by Cat nanny, not 5.00pm.
Another person who was extremely vague is Emma Wilding. She was in charge of the 'Sharks', the other Mini group so she worked closely with Cat Baker.
She is not sure whether during the morning (3rd) Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; ...she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not,.....She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.......She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
I don't know how many were in Emma's care on the morning of 3rd May but I find it strange that she didn't notice Cat organising six children to go sailing and didn't notice so many children disappearing for an hour or more.
In the afternoon Cat had only Madeleine and two boys to take to high tea. I assume both nanny's went up together, but again she didn't notice this one girl with Cat.
The Lobsters didn't go to the beach on 2nd May according to the activities sheet. They were supposed to go sailing but instead they had 'grass time'.
Lyndsay Johnston mentions the sailing;
Madeleine McCann participated in a boat trip, organised by the company's crêche. Several children participated in this outing to the sea, accompanied by the employees mentioned above and an expert in water activities, whose name she is not aware of.
The employees mentioned are;
Amy T. who, in her turn, coordinates a group of leaders composed of Catriona B. and Emma W. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
So according to LJ Emma and Amy should have been there when the sailing took place.
According to Cat's 'beach outing' statement she and Alice S took the children to the beach. She stayed on the beach with the children and Chris U took three at a time out in a red amphibious boat to Alice S who sailed with them in a yellow catamaran. She also says they went to the beach on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, but the activities sheet says no beach on Wednesday. In her rog statement she gives the impression that she went on the boats with Madeleine, which suggests that three children were left on the beach alone.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 12, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
Wednesday morning was raining so sailing was put back to Thursday morning which was dry.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 12, 2016, 01:30:46 PM
That sounds to me like someone who is being deliberately vague. He is also vague about time. The sheet was signed at 4.30pm by Cat nanny, not 5.00pm.
Another person who was extremely vague is Emma Wilding. She was in charge of the 'Sharks', the other Mini group so she worked closely with Cat Baker.
She is not sure whether during the morning (3rd) Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; ...she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not,.....She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.......She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
I don't know how many were in Emma's care on the morning of 3rd May but I find it strange that she didn't notice Cat organising six children to go sailing and didn't notice so many children disappearing for an hour or more.
In the afternoon Cat had only Madeleine and two boys to take to high tea. I assume both nanny's went up together, but again she didn't notice this one girl with Cat.
The Lobsters didn't go to the beach on 2nd May according to the activities sheet. They were supposed to go sailing but instead they had 'grass time'.
Lyndsay Johnston mentions the sailing;
Madeleine McCann participated in a boat trip, organised by the company's crêche. Several children participated in this outing to the sea, accompanied by the employees mentioned above and an expert in water activities, whose name she is not aware of.
The employees mentioned are;
Amy T. who, in her turn, coordinates a group of leaders composed of Catriona B. and Emma W. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
So according to LJ Emma and Amy should have been there when the sailing took place.
According to Cat's 'beach outing' statement she and Alice S took the children to the beach. She stayed on the beach with the children and Chris U took three at a time out in a red amphibious boat to Alice S who sailed with them in a yellow catamaran. She also says they went to the beach on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, but the activities sheet says no beach on Wednesday. In her rog statement she gives the impression that she went on the boats with Madeleine, which suggests that three children were left on the beach alone.
That sounds to me like you are accusing someone of deliberately trying to obstruct justice.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 01:57:39 PM
Why do you think Amaral and his team missed the 'fact' that Madeleine apparently disappeared on the 29th and not the 3rd May as they believed? If it's so obvious to armchair detectives - then why wasn't it to the PJ?
ANSWER: Amaral had less than 5 months to figure things out, was booted out soon after he made the McCanns arguidos, and was then replaced by a government puppet. The 'armchair detectives', who include former senior police officers, have by contrast had eight years and ten months to sift, search for, find and analyse a whole lot more evidence and try and work out what really happened to Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 02:39:16 PM
ANSWER: Amaral had less than 5 months to figure things out, was booted out soon after he made the McCanns arguidos, and was then replaced by a government puppet. The 'armchair detectives', who include former senior police officers, have by contrast had eight years and ten months to sift, search for, find and analyse a whole lot more evidence and try and work out what really happened to Madeleine McCann.
And senior police officers on both the UK and the PT side who are actually involved in reviewing evidence and are actively involved in the investigation based on the full files have determined that the McCanns are not persons of interest / suspects until further notice.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 12, 2016, 02:48:06 PM
ANSWER: Amaral had less than 5 months to figure things out, was booted out soon after he made the McCanns arguidos, and was then replaced by a government puppet. The 'armchair detectives', who include former senior police officers, have by contrast had eight years and ten months to sift, search for, find and analyse a whole lot more evidence and try and work out what really happened to Madeleine McCann.
This Comment is very close to Libel of another PJ Officer. Please don't do that again.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 12, 2016, 02:54:05 PM
Granted these were not "little kids" but are examples of who would do what and how when they shouldn't. Lyme Bay early 1990s Glenridding Beck incident of early 2000s ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 02:58:32 PM
Granted these were not "little kids" but are examples of who would do what and how when they shouldn't. Lyme Bay early 1990s Glenridding Beck incident of early 2000s ?
I'd have to Google what you are referring to, so no comment on that for the moment.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2016, 03:31:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that the childcare workers were so vague and inaccurate about what they did that week. They were not on holiday, they were paid workers with responsibility for other people's young children.
They used the indoor pool for water based activities Carana.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 03:40:36 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that the childcare workers were so vague and inaccurate about what they did that week. They were not on holiday, they were paid workers with responsibility for other people's young children.
They used the indoor pool for water based activities Carana.
Where was the indoor pool?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 12, 2016, 04:36:45 PM
ANSWER: Amaral had less than 5 months to figure things out, was booted out soon after he made the McCanns arguidos, and was then replaced by a government puppet. The 'armchair detectives', who include former senior police officers, have by contrast had eight years and ten months to sift, search for, find and analyse a whole lot more evidence and try and work out what really happened to Madeleine McCann.
Armchair detectives only have access to SOME of the evidence/information available to SY and have to rely on statements translated by amateurs. They have no ability to interview or reinterview anyone connected to the case, have no means of accessing information which only the police can access - and the vast majority have no experience whatsoever in detective work. .
Any reasonably intelligent person can easily see how that must put armchair detectives at a major disadvantage to professional detectives who do have ALL the available information to hand, who have professionally translated files, the ability to make background checks etc and to actually interview people in person if necessary. And who also have years of experience in detective work under their belts.
Anyone who thinks that armchair detectives are equally or even better placed to solve this case than the professional police officers of two countries is seriously deluding themselves IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 12, 2016, 04:50:35 PM
Armchair detectives only have access to SOME of the evidence/information available to SY and have to rely on statements translated by amateurs. They have no ability to interview or reinterview anyone connected to the case, have no means of accessing information which only the police can access - and the vast majority have no experience whatsoever in detective work. .
Any reasonably intelligent person can easily see how that must put armchair detectives at a major disadvantage to professional detectives who do have ALL the available information to hand, who have professionally translated files, the ability to make background checks etc and to actually interview people in person if necessary. And who also have years of experience in detective work under their belts.
Anyone who thinks that armchair detectives are equally or even better placed to solve this case than the professional police officers of two countries is seriously deluding themselves IMO.
All other considerations being equal that about sums it up. We can however turn it into a good game of conjecture.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2016, 04:53:42 PM
It is about 30m north of the OC 24hr reception, in the same block. It is recognisable by the fact that it has glass all round the south aspect. It should turn up on StreetView.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 05:08:50 PM
It is about 30m north of the OC 24hr reception, in the same block. It is recognisable by the fact that it has glass all round the south aspect. It should turn up on StreetView.
Ok. Thanks. 8((()*/ If ever there is any confirmation of where that took place (indoors or outdoors).
What about the mini-sail moved from Wednesday to the Thursday morning?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2016, 07:39:37 PM
Ok. Thanks. 8((()*/ If ever there is any confirmation of where that took place (indoors or outdoors).
What about the mini-sail moved from Wednesday to the Thursday morning?
They would do various activities, such as going to the indoor pool at the resort, they would go to the tennis court, situated outside near to the Tapas restaurant (3), they would got to the beach (outside), they would paint and play (inside the resort). Jane Michelle Tanner Date 2007.05.04
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on March 12, 2016, 08:12:53 PM
(snip) .Anyone who thinks that armchair detectives are equally or even better placed to solve this case than the professional police officers of two countries is seriously deluding themselves IMO.
If an armchair detective abandons the silly preconditioned assumptions that police tend to make, and instead studies past cases, it's quite possible that an amateur could see the solution when police can't.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 08:26:49 PM
What's the significance of the activities highlighted in yellow?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 08:30:34 PM
If an armchair detective abandons the silly preconditioned assumptions that police tend to make, and instead studies past cases, it's quite possible that an amateur could see the solution when police can't.
Past cases from when, where and involving whom?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on March 12, 2016, 09:09:55 PM
What cases to consider? Solved missing child cases of various types (found alive , or dead). Also occultation of adult cases. Cases involving covert transportation (just that last category alone rules out the JT and Smith sightings).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2016, 10:27:11 PM
Olympics grass time? Doesn't sound like a beach to me if grass is involved. The activities seem to consist of grass time, beach play and pool time. Everything else is room-based, I assume, except the trip to buy ice cream and the mini sail. The mini tennis is described as grass time.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 11:52:28 PM
I thought they might represent outdoor activities, but there was the "garden adventure" that wasn't highlighted, yet the "Olympic grass time" was and presumably that wasn't at the beach, was it?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 13, 2016, 12:07:38 AM
I'm wondering if that was at the tapas area on WED afternoon?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on March 13, 2016, 12:24:23 AM
"they went to the beach on Tuesday afternoon between 15h30 and 16h30, on Wednesday at the same time, and on Thursday between 10h00 and 11h00"
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2016, 10:56:31 AM
"they went to the beach on Tuesday afternoon between 15h30 and 16h30, on Wednesday at the same time, and on Thursday between 10h00 and 11h00"
Whoever said that is disagreeing with the record handed to the PJ. Perhaps the PJ highlighted those three activities when they were looking at anomalies in the creche records.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 13, 2016, 12:34:31 PM
"they went to the beach on Tuesday afternoon between 15h30 and 16h30, on Wednesday at the same time, and on Thursday between 10h00 and 11h00"
Another of these events consisted of a trip to the beach with "hula hoops", shovels and buckets, etc, and the other trip to the beach was in order to eat ice cream. Together, the trips to the beach took place in the afternoon but I cannot state precisely which days.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Ice cream trip was Tuesday Beach play was also Tuesday
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2016, 02:09:23 PM
Another of these events consisted of a trip to the beach with "hula hoops", shovels and buckets, etc, and the other trip to the beach was in order to eat ice cream. Together, the trips to the beach took place in the afternoon but I cannot state precisely which days.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Ice cream trip was Tuesday Beach play was also Tuesday
Her statement on 10th May, when her memory should have been fresher;
We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock (see attached table [of creche activities]). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA-B.htm
According to the McCanns they went to the beach on Tuesday, had ice creams then put the children back in the creches for the last one and a half hours. If true, Madeleine missed the ice cream trip with the Minis. Not only that, she arrived back at the creche just in time to turn round and return to the beach. The signing in sheets, of course, say she returned at 2.30pm. It was the day before when she returned at 3.15pm.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 15, 2016, 11:39:36 AM
this is what R D H ....is all about ....he does not believe the abduction ....and is in a position to show the many discrepancies ...and to show ..there is no proof that maddie was there all week ....this giving the mccs ...more time ...than the few hours ...what at first many people believed ..removing maddie ..cleaning the flat etc ...etc
Like everyone else, I believed that Madeleine was seen during the holidays as there were so many people that claimed to have seen her.
I attempted to try to find out which ones were credible, hopefully leading to the last day that she was seen with a fair amount of certainty...
As I started to collate them and then scrutinise each one I realised that apart from Fatima da Silva who saw Madeleine and the family outside the apartment as they were probably heading up to lunch at the Paynes (I checked her statement for he work times to see if she actually was finished work at hat time as she said...and it was correct.) there was NOT ONE statement that had a similar degree of credibility.
I thought that the possibility of something happening to Madeleine prior to Thursday would be impossible but after reading all the statements, every one (except Fatima) allows for doubt. Some were very obviously mistaken.
This is the list of everyone that 'saw' Madeleine during the holiday according to their statements.
Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada (5A Cleaner's daughter) - Credible
Cecilia Dias Firmino - Receptionist at Millenium - described a shy Madeleine and saw them on days they were not at restaurant. - Therefore, not proof that she saw Madeleine...She may have seen one of the other tapas children
Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman - Admits to not being able to recognise if it was Madeleine.
Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook - Described seeing Madeleine every lunchtime in the tapas next to the creche Madeleine attended, but Madeleine did not go to that creche so she was mistaken with which child she saw.
Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist) - Claims to have seen Madeleine with ROB but his daughter was not in the creche that morning and looks very similar to Madeleine so likely mistaken.
Georgina Jackson - Tennis instructor - Was non specific about seeing Madeleine...only that she was part of the group for that morning.
Bridget O'Donnell - Jez Wilkins partner - Claimed 'all pretty in pink' for the mini tennis with the Sharks on Thursday...Madeleine's group played on Tuesday, so she was mistaken that Madeleine may have been there.
Miguel Matias - Owner of Paraiso - Was convinced he saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy and on his shoulders but we KNOW Madeleine was not there...he mistakenly thought another child was Madeleine.
The Boyds Their son supposedly played with Madeleine on the waterslide on May 3rd - They made no statement, just a magazine article that has many discrepancies about its credibility which I can explain further if necessary.
Catriona Baker - Non credible with her statement riddled with discrepancies as well as her trip to visit the McCanns in Rothley does not help with credibility.
Charlotte Pennington - Already accepted as being questionable with many contradictions and discrepancies.
Elisa Dias Romao - Claimed seeing Madeleine at times she was not there.(according to creche records)
Emma Wilding -Did not know Madeleine well and makes incorrect statement about seeing Gerry
Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira Cleaner - Saw them twice leaving Millenium about 9.30 - 10am - The didn't go to Millenium for breakfast
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no formal statements from them-
Non Specific comments that do not (imo) confirm Madeleine's presence:-
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins Stephen Carpenter Daniel Stuk
Are there any of the above witnesses that REALLY DID SEE MADELEINE? I encourage anyone to show me one witness that, according to their statement, PROBABLY saw Madeleine during the week.
Some are obviously mistaken but the remainder (and there are very few considering she was there for more than 5 days) are questionable at best.
For those of us that believe something happened earlier, the statements confirm there is a possibility that she may not have been seen.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 15, 2016, 12:23:21 PM
I have no idea who did or did not see Madeleine, but almost all of the witnesses would have had no idea who she was or what she looked like prior to the morning following her disappearance.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 15, 2016, 12:40:42 PM
I have no idea who did or did not see Madeleine, but almost all of the witnesses would have had no idea who she was or what she looked like prior to the morning following her disappearance.
that is what i think jassi.....especially with the out of date photo they showed of her a lot younger ...she could have been anyone of the other children there ....
especially the ones who would have known maddie...........are not sure if they saw her or not
plus the strange behaviour of the mccs from the sunday ...more or less segregating them selves ...from the rest of the group ...they went on holiday with in the first place.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:09:50 PM
that is what i think jassi.....especially with the out of date photo they showed of her a lot younger ...she could have been anyone of the other children there ....
especially the ones who would have known maddie...........are not sure if they saw her or not
plus the strange behaviour of the mccs from the sunday ...more or less segregating them selves ...from the rest of the group ...they went on holiday with in the first place.
Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker Childcare Worker Time/Date: 18H36 2007/05/06 British Citizen Translated by Robert Murat
The informant is heard as a witness. Being of British nationality, she has no command of the Portuguese language in spoken or written form, because of which and because he is present, the person named: ROBERT MURAT residing at Casa Liliana, Ramalhete Road in Praia da Luz, 8600 Lagos, contactable via telephone no: 913...., offered to translate the interview.
In answer to our questions, she responds that she has been in Portugal since March 21st of this year and that this is her first visit to the country. Next, she says that she came to Portugal to work as a play leader, having obtained a contract of employment with the "Mark Warner" company. She states that her contract started on March 21st and ends on November 7th 2007, the date on which she will return to her own country. She points out that the company in question, in its turn, has a contract with the "OCEAN CLUB" tourist village to provide a child care service for parents who are clients of the village. She adds that in the tourist village, this type of child care takes place in four different places according to the ages of the children.
For children aged four months to one year it is the "Baby Club" which is close to the OCEAN CLUB's main reception. For children aged one to two years, it is the "Toddler" which is next to the "Tapas" restaurant. For children aged three to five years, it is the "Mini Club" which is also close to the Ocean Club's main reception. And finally, for children aged six to nine years and from ten to thirteen years, it is the "Junior Club" which is close to the "Millenium" restaurant.
Concerning the operating hours, there are four separate services.
* Mornings: 9am-12.30pm * Afternoons: 2.30-5.30pm * Dining Out Service 7.30pm-11.30pm
(children are watched in a room above the main Ocean Club 24hour reception; there is no extra charge for this service but parents must take and fetch their own children)
* "Baby sitting Service": 7.30pm-1am
(children are watched in their own apartments; there is an extra charge for this service)
The informant mentions that the work of the play leaders is the same in all areas specified above and that all colleagues have similar training. Rotations are scheduled, which means that they change places from week to week, changing the age group they have to work with.
She states that as part of her job she has to work out a weekly plan of activities to develop with the children who are entrusted to them, notably outside, like swimming tennis, the beach...
To our question, she specifies that she is responsible for a group of children, similar in age to the missing minor and that each supervisor has around seven children who stay with the same supervisor for the week.
When asked she states that she knows the McCann family since last Sunday, 29th April, 2007, when they enrolled their daughter in the “Minis” service. She replies that since that date and until Thursday, the 03rd of May, 2007, she was with Madeleine every day, but is unable to specify if she was present on the Sunday morning.
Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities. Concerning the little girl, she states that she was an active and sociable child. Only on the first day was she more reticent with the group.
The informant reports that during the time that Madeleine was entrusted to her care, at no time did it seem to her that the little girl was sad or unhappy, and she never made any comment about being cross, sad or discontent about anything. She also reports that she was an obedient child who never wandered from the group and who never spoke to strangers.
When asked, the informant responds that it was always the parents who brought Madeleine and fetched her from the "Mini Club."
When questioned, she responds that in the course of her work, on the company's premises and outside (as described above) she has never noticed anyone in particular or suspicious watching the children with whom she was working. She did not notice anyone taking photos of the children and notably of Madeleine. She states that she never heard her colleagues refer to such things either.
The informant states that in the context of the disappearance of the minor, Madeleine, she saw nothing and was not aware of any reason which might explain the disappearance. Finally, the informant advises that in the few years that she has been working in this profession, for the same company, in various countries, she has never heard anyone talk of an event of this kind.
The informant states that since she has been in Portugal, in addition to the British people and her colleagues, she has got to know people outside the tourist company, some of Portuguese nationality but mostly British people whom she associates with when going out at night to enjoy herself. During her evenings out no one has asked her about her work, or about the children, or the McCann family in particular.
Nothing more was said ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:14:20 PM
Witness statement Charlotte Elizabeth Anne Pennington Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30 Childcare Worker Irish Citizen Translator Robert Murat
• Has been in Portugal since April 28th, the day upon which she began working for the Ocean Club tourist Complex in Luz, Lagos, and where she is employed as a child educator. Her work contract was completed in the U.K. with MarkWarner; • The witness clarifies that between the 19th of April and the 04th of May 2007 she worked with a group of children staying in the aforementioned complex between the ages of 4 months and one year of age (the Baby Club); • The witness further clarifies that the BabyClub group was divided in three sub-groups, with each group composed of two babies, so that each group had a different infant educator allocated to it; • With relation to the facts of the investigation, the witness states that in the course of her work, she came across Madeleine McCann many times, explaining that, even though she [Madeleine] did not belong to her [Pennington's] group, this was normal, as the physical space where the children groups are located is contiguous; • The witness clarifies that Madeleine was registered with the 'MiniClub', a group with children between 3 and 4 years of age. The principal space where the children from MiniClub and BabyClub are situated is in the same building as the Ocean Club complex reception and this is why the witness had personal contact with the identified child. However, she clarifies that it was normal during "siesta"-- understood to be between the hours of 09H00 and 10H30 and 14H30 and 15H00, at the exact time that children are brought into the crèche by their parents—when the children under her guard are asleep, that she would participate with the children and the activities in the MiniClub; • Witness states that on two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her. • Witness states that as she was an intelligent child, timid at first contact, and who later felt more comfortable, was a child who conversed normally for her age, and was of a calm demeanour. She adds that it was usual for Madeleine to be called "Maddy", as this is how she [Madeleine] presented herself to the witness; • On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy"; • The witness also clarified that the crèche in the complex also offers complementary services allowing parents to leave their children with baby sitters during dinner-time, between the hours of 19H15 and 23H00; • She advised the aforementioned individual that no one had told them of the disappearance, who she believed by the name given, was Madeleine, also for the reason that Amy contacted via telephone her supervisor, Lyndsay, who informed her that Madeleine had indeed disappeared; • After this situation, they began the "search procedure for a missing child" which consists of an organised search involving different areas of the complex in question; • The witness states that she participated in the searches, together with her colleague—Amy, searching various areas of the Ocean Club establishment. She also states that she searched the patio area of the residence where Madeleine stayed with her parents and siblings, and during which, she encountered many individuals inside the apartment but was not able to tell if they were complex employees or friends of the couple. She did not enter the residence in question; • She participated in the searches until 01H30 on the 4th of May, 2007, when she returned to her residence; • During the search, she noticed, together with her colleagues from the Ocean Club, that other people participated in the searches (tourists, and proprietors from the complex in question); • She was not aware of the time but believes it was around midnight when she noticed that the local authorities (police) were present and assessing the situation; • States that the searches carried out by the Ocean Club elements terminated at around 04H00 the next morning, 04 of May, 2007, with negative results; • States that she did not maintain contact with the minor in question, Madeleine McCann, but only to the extent that she was a child educator, as she was located together where the missing child was being watched in the crèche. She is unaware of Madeleine's habits and that of her parents, not having perceived any odd situation related to the child or any other during her work period in Portugal; • The witness also states that Madeleine was normally left by her parents around 09H15 in the crèche, as her parents left the twins beforehand in the Toddler Club; • Is not aware of any situation that seemed odd/strange related, directly, or indirectly to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Nothing more to declare.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:16:50 PM
OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS AMY ELLEN TIERNEY STATEMENT
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This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal. It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
CRECHE WORKER 06 MAY 2007
229 to 231-Witness statement of Amy Ellen Tierney 2007.05.06 232-Copy of Amy Ellen Tierney's passport
TRANSLATIONS BY INES
02-Processos Volume II 229 to 231
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_229
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_230
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_231
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_232
Witness Statement
Amy Tierney
Date: 2007-05-06
Place: P da L
Occupation: Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club
Place of Work: Ocean Club
She comes to the process as a witness.
As she does not understand Portuguese and is of English nationality she is assisted by the interpreter Robert Murat who accompanies her during the questioning.
When asked, the witness confirms that she has been in Portugal since the 18th March 2007 having come to Portugal to work in this tourist resort.
She confirms that she works as head of the Baby Club and Mini Club, the former being for children aged up to eleven months and the latter for children aged between three and five.
She confirms that Madeleine is known by her as frequenting the Mini Club, as she was aged almost four.
When questioned about Madeleine's behaviour, the witness says that she is a shy girl but very intelligent for her age, she tended to play with older children, the witness describes her attitude and behaviour as perfectly normal.
The witness confirms that she also knows Madeleine's parents as they would go to fetch her from the club, but she adds that it was normally Madeleine's father who did this.
When questioned, the witness states that she has not noted anything abnormal in the relation between the child and the parents.
The hours of the club are from 09.00 to 12.30 and from 14.30 to 17.30, the club is closed on Sundays on that day it only offers the dinner service.
When questioned, she says that if the guests wish so they can request services from the "Staff" who would look after the children from 19.30 to 23.30, however Madeleine's parents never did this although the service is free.
She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.
In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun.
The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 – 35 minutes to arrive.
She says that at no moment did she notice anyone behaving strangely as concerns the children or anything that appeared at all suspicious to her.
She adds that the staff looking after the children were eleven employees, who worked in shifts regarding the hours from 19.30 to 23.30.
The witness remembers that upon entering the bedroom at the time of the disappearance, she saw that the bed that the two babies were sleeping (reparou que a cama que os dois bebes encontravam-se a dormir) and she saw that the bedclothes of the bed near the window were rumpled as if someone had been sitting there, that the bedclothes of Madeleine's bed had been pushed back and that on top of the bed was a small child's blanket and a cuddly toy.
She states that the distance between the apartment and the restaurant where Madeleine's parents were was 30 seconds by foot away but that there was no visual contact with the back window of the bedroom where Madeleine was. From the restaurant just the front window of the apartment could be seen.
The witness does not remember any element that could be useful to the investigation.
No more is said.
Reads, ratifies and signs.
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Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 15, 2016, 05:18:30 PM
that is what i think jassi.....especially with the out of date photo they showed of her a lot younger ...she could have been anyone of the other children there ....
especially the ones who would have known maddie...........are not sure if they saw her or not
plus the strange behaviour of the mccs from the sunday ...more or less segregating them selves ...from the rest of the group ...they went on holiday with in the first place.
She was one of Cat Baker's charges for the week. Unless you subscribe to some bizarre clone / substitute or nanny-coverup theory, how would she NOT know that Madeleine was in her care up until she disappeared?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 15, 2016, 05:20:35 PM
@ Lace
Are you trying to outdo Brietta for the cut and paste challenge cup ? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:25:57 PM
Yes!!
OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS LINDSAY JANE JOHNSTON INTERVIEW
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This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal. It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
KIDS CLUB SUPERVISOR
220 to 223 Witness statement of Lyndsay Jane Johnson 2007.05.06 224 Copy of Lyndsay Lane Johnson's passport
TRANSLATION BY ANNA/ALBYM
02-Processos Volume II Pages 220 to 224
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_220
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_221
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_222
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_223
02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_224
Lindsay Jayne J.'s interview. We return to our case file. Lindsay J.'s interview took place on May 6th 2007. This interview is interesting for several reasons. Lindsay J is manager of the KIDS CLUB.
In the matter at hand, it is stated that:
The informant is heard as a witness. In virtue of the fact that the informant is of British nationality and that she has no command of the Portuguese language, the present statement is taken in the presence of Filipa Maria C.S., translator.
The informant has been in Portugal since March 15th, the date on which she started to work for the "Ocean Club" tourist company in Praia da Luz where she supervises the leaders (male and female) of the KIDS CLUB, her contract of employment having been previously signed in London (England)
In the context of her duties which she carries out for the company mentioned, she has had contact on several occasions with a child called Madeleine McCann, observing from a distance. The informant states that the child belonged to the "MiniClub," group in which the children are aged 3 to 5 years.
Questioned in more depth, the informant advises us that the group of children belonging to the "MiniClub" category is supervised by her colleague Amy T. who, in her turn, coordinates a group of leaders composed of Catriona B. and Emma W. Both were on duty in the week of April 29th to May 4th 2007.
The informant informs that the "MiniClub" is subdivided into two classes of children and that Madeleine was entrusted to Catriona B.
The "MiniClub" is open from 9am. A break is scheduled for lunch between 12.30 and 2.30pm when the afternoon session starts until 5.30pm.
Then, from 7.30pm, the Kids Club provides a complementary "dinner" service until 11.30pm. For an additional fee, parents can obtain a "babysitting" service without a fixed time, to be arranged between the parents and the baby-sitter.
The children stay at the centre and get involved with various activities which can be done on the company's premises, appropriate for this purpose, or they can also go outside, notably to the beach but always accompanied by a Kids Club employee.
The informant tells us that on a date which she cannot be precise about but which was some time last week, Madeleine McCann participated in a boat trip, organised by the company's crêche. Several children participated in this outing to the sea, accompanied by the employees mentioned above and an expert in water activities, whose name she is not aware of.
To our question, the informant states that Madeleine McCann was accompanied by her parents, Kate and Gerald McCann who are renting apartment G5A at the Ocean Club.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure. This procedure consists of dividing the site into several areas, which are allocated to various of the company's employees to start searching for the missing child. To that effect, the informant explains that, around 10.25pm, the date indicated, the said procedure was begun, dividing the whole site into three distinct areas, namely the north zone, the central zone (including the area of the company) and all the roads surrounding the company and which go as far as the beach. Five of the company's employees were mobilised to coordinate the searches, helped by various people ( other employees, tourists and residents)
Later, not knowing precisely what time, the local police came to the company and, taking into account the procedure which we had set in place, they proceeded with the appropriate actions for this type of situation.
Questioned by us, the informant indicated that the searches by members of the OCEAN CLUB ended at around 4am on the morning of May 4th, without result.
To our question, the informant stated that at the time she was informed of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, she was alone in her residence and that she immediately went out and initiated the procedure described above. To our questions, the informant replies that given that she had no direct contact with the minor in question, Madeleine McCann, being only the supervisor of the company's crêche leaders, as a consequence she does not know the routines of the minor or her parents and that no suspicious situation or any special concern about the child had been reported to her during the time she worked in Portugal.
The informant did not notice any other suspicious or unusual situations which might be related directly or indirectly to Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
After reading in the company of the interpreter, who explains to her, having nothing else to add, she goes on and signs.
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Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:28:49 PM
Ok I'll just give names.
Rhiannon
Sarah Elizabeth Williamson
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:38:40 PM
Stacy Potz crèche nanny, with Sean and Amelie everyday from 29th April - 3rd of May. Also knew Madeleine as she would frequently come talk to her brother and sister when picked up by her parents.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 05:43:10 PM
Susan Bernadette Owen, saw Madeleine and the twins arriving at crèche.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 15, 2016, 06:00:36 PM
Not counting the friends, the cleaner, Mrs. Boyd and anyone else I've missed.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2016, 07:37:55 PM
How reliable are the nanny's statements?
Amy Tierney; The witness confirms that she also knows Madeleine's parents as they would go to fetch her from the club, but she adds that it was normally Madeleine's father who did this. the club is closed on Sundays on that day it only offers the dinner service. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
Both the above are wrong.
Cat Baker; that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities. the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA-B.htm
Both wrong, or at least not confirmed.
Emma Wilding; She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew's (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
She didn't notice 7 kids and Cat had gone missing and Kate picked MM up at lunchtime, not Gerry.
Jackie Williams;
Says she saw MM at high tea, but gives no description. Saw parents only twice at high tea. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
Kirsty Maryan;
she only, on one occasion, had contact with Madeleine McCann, for about 30 minutes 'who was treated as Maddie' in that she had to substitute for her colleague, who, at that time, was responsible for the group whose name is Emma, as she had to go to the Tapas to take care of the refreshments of Madeleine's group. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIRSTY-MARYAN.htm
Unlikely, MM wasn't in Emma's group.
Shinead Vine, who cared for the twins;
she saw Madeleine McCann once Shinead Maria Vine 2007.05.07
Sarah Williamson;
the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SARA-ELIZABETH-WILLIAMSON.htm
Strange, yet Shinead only saw her once, although she was in the same room and actually in charge of the twins.
Stacey Potz saw her even if Shinead didn't; She also knew Madeleine as she would frequently come talk to her brother and sister when picked up by her parents; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STACY-POTZ.htm
Was Shinead paying no attention at all?
Susan Owen saw her; she came into contact on some occasions with a child known as Madeleine McCann, clarifying that the contact was formal and of short duration, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUSAN-OWEN.htm
Three nannys in Toddlers 2 and the one who had the twins saw MM less than anyone else did.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 16, 2016, 07:39:28 AM
Are you saying that these nannies did not tell the truth to the police? Why would they do that? These nannies were there when the children went to the crèche, they would know if it was Madeleine or not, Madeleine had twin siblings, something that would stick in any persons mind.
It is ridiculous to suggest that all these nannies are not telling the truth. The idea that Madeleine was not at the crèche all week is utterly stupid.
These nannies have given statements to the police, if they hadn't seen Madeleine then they would have said so as some have.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 16, 2016, 08:06:03 AM
It's not credible. Kate dropped the twins off with Madeleine (14:45) then dropped Madeleine off (14:50) on the 3 May so of course Madeleine would be seen with the twins at times by tapas staff.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 16, 2016, 09:01:56 AM
It's not credible. Kate dropped the twins off with Madeleine (14:45) then dropped Madeleine off (14:50) on the 3 May so of course Madeleine would be seen with the twins at times by tapas staff.
Do you mean the creche staff? Only one of the Tapas staff refers to seeing her. None of them mention the influx of children for High Tea. As 48 Mark Warner children were eligible for this tea it's strange that none of the Tapas staff mention this daily influx of children at 4.45-5pm.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 16, 2016, 09:07:33 AM
Are you saying that these nannies did not tell the truth to the police? Why would they do that? These nannies were there when the children went to the crèche, they would know if it was Madeleine or not, Madeleine had twin siblings, something that would stick in any persons mind.
It is ridiculous to suggest that all these nannies are not telling the truth. The idea that Madeleine was not at the crèche all week is utterly stupid.
These nannies have given statements to the police, if they hadn't seen Madeleine then they would have said so as some have.
I don't think the nannys lied, I just think they're unreliable witnesses. Some thought they saw MM, but probably didn't (Kirsty M). Some should have been familiar with her but weren't (Shinead V).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 16, 2016, 09:19:17 AM
Are you saying that these nannies did not tell the truth to the police? Why would they do that? These nannies were there when the children went to the crèche, they would know if it was Madeleine or not, Madeleine had twin siblings, something that would stick in any persons mind.
It is ridiculous to suggest that all these nannies are not telling the truth. The idea that Madeleine was not at the crèche all week is utterly stupid.
These nannies have given statements to the police, if they hadn't seen Madeleine then they would have said so as some have.
Madeleine had twin siblings, something that would stick in any persons mind.
well it didn't the Boyd's..did it
It is ridiculous to suggest that all these nannies are not telling the truth. The idea that Madeleine was not at the creche all week is utterly stupid.
yes but it isn't stupid ...is it....only to you...
as for them not telling the truth ....why was there so many inconsistencies ...making there statements not credable ....what they thought they saw ....and what they did see ...are two different things ...not necessarily lies.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 16, 2016, 09:24:47 AM
I don't think the nannys lied, I just think they're unreliable witnesses. Some thought they saw MM, but probably didn't (Kirsty M). Some should have been familiar with her but weren't (Shinead V).
Have you ever thought that maybe Shinead was busy with other children when Madeleine came with her parent/s to pick the twins up? That maybe they were outside of the room when talking?
The nanny who says that Madeleine came to talk to her brother and sister, would hardly state that she saw Madeleine if she hadn't, it would be obvious it was Madeleine talking to her siblings.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 16, 2016, 09:28:27 AM
Madeleine had twin siblings, something that would stick in any persons mind.
well it didn't the Boyd's..did it
It is ridiculous to suggest that all these nannies are not telling the truth. The idea that Madeleine was not at the creche all week is utterly stupid.
yes but it isn't stupid ...is it....only to you...
as for them not telling the truth ....why was there so many inconsistencies ...making there statements not credable ....what they thought they saw ....and what they did see ...are two different things ...not necessarily lies.
Mrs. Boyd was speaking about seeing Madeleine not the twins, the twins could have been with Gerry then taken to the crèche.
Why would the nannies be mistaken? They were there working at the crèche, why would they give false statements to the police?
Cat was with Madeleine every day, do you not think she would know Madeleine from any other child?
Look how many nannies say they saw Madeleine, they can't all be mistaken.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 16, 2016, 09:40:55 AM
Do you mean the creche staff? Only one of the Tapas staff refers to seeing her. None of them mention the influx of children for High Tea. As 48 Mark Warner children were eligible for this tea it's strange that none of the Tapas staff mention this daily influx of children at 4.45-5pm.
Dianne Webster says she saw the children at high tea, she specifically says she didn't see Madeleine on the Thursday as she was at the beach, but she says she saw the children the rest of the week. No where in her statement does she say Madeleine was missing from high tea up to the Thursday.
Then of course I doubt if the word of Dianne Webster will be believed either.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 16, 2016, 09:48:46 AM
Mrs. Boyd was speaking about seeing Madeleine not the twins, the twins could have been with Gerry then taken to the crèche.
Why would the nannies be mistaken? They were there working at the crèche, why would they give false statements to the police?
Cat was with Madeleine every day, do you not think she would know Madeleine from any other child?
Look how many nannies say they saw Madeleine, they can't all be mistaken.
how many times did some change statements .....so which are the ones you are talking about no matter how you look at it ...they are not definite proof ....that maddie was there ... 8**8:/:
Like everyone else, I believed that Madeleine was seen during the holidays as there were so many people that claimed to have seen her.
I attempted to try to find out which ones were credible, hopefully leading to the last day that she was seen with a fair amount of certainty...
As I started to collate them and then scrutinise each one I realised that apart from Fatima da Silva who saw Madeleine and the family outside the apartment as they were probably heading up to lunch at the Paynes (I checked her statement for he work times to see if she actually was finished work at hat time as she said...and it was correct.) there was NOT ONE statement that had a similar degree of credibility.
I thought that the possibility of something happening to Madeleine prior to Thursday would be impossible but after reading all the statements, every one (except Fatima) allows for doubt. Some were very obviously mistaken.
This is the list of everyone that 'saw' Madeleine during the holiday according to their statements.
Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada (5A Cleaner's daughter) - Credible
Cecilia Dias Firmino - Receptionist at Millenium - described a shy Madeleine and saw them on days they were not at restaurant. - Therefore, not proof that she saw Madeleine...She may have seen one of the other tapas children
Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman - Admits to not being able to recognise if it was Madeleine.
Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook - Described seeing Madeleine every lunchtime in the tapas next to the creche Madeleine attended, but Madeleine did not go to that creche so she was mistaken with which child she saw.
Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist) - Claims to have seen Madeleine with ROB but his daughter was not in the creche that morning and looks very similar to Madeleine so likely mistaken.
Georgina Jackson - Tennis instructor - Was non specific about seeing Madeleine...only that she was part of the group for that morning.
Bridget O'Donnell - Jez Wilkins partner - Claimed 'all pretty in pink' for the mini tennis with the Sharks on Thursday...Madeleine's group played on Tuesday, so she was mistaken that Madeleine may have been there.
Miguel Matias - Owner of Paraiso - Was convinced he saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy and on his shoulders but we KNOW Madeleine was not there...he mistakenly thought another child was Madeleine.
The Boyds Their son supposedly played with Madeleine on the waterslide on May 3rd - They made no statement, just a magazine article that has many discrepancies about its credibility which I can explain further if necessary.
Catriona Baker - Non credible with her statement riddled with discrepancies as well as her trip to visit the McCanns in Rothley does not help with credibility.
Charlotte Pennington - Already accepted as being questionable with many contradictions and discrepancies. Elisa Dias Romao - Claimed seeing Madeleine at times she was not there.(according to creche records)
Emma Wilding -Did not know Madeleine well and makes incorrect statement about seeing Gerry
Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira Cleaner - Saw them twice leaving Millenium about 9.30 - 10am - The didn't go to Millenium for breakfast
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no formal statements from them-
Non Specific comments that do not confirm Madeleine's presence:-
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins Stephen Carpenter Daniel Stuk
, according to their statement, PROBABLY saw Madeleine during the week.
Some are obviously mistaken but the remainder (and there are very few considering she was there for more than 5 days) are questionable at best.
For those of us that believe something happened earlier, the statements confirm there is a possibility that she may not have been seen.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 16, 2016, 11:16:53 AM
Are you saying that these nannies did not tell the truth to the police? Why would they do that? These nannies were there when the children went to the crèche, they would know if it was Madeleine or not, Madeleine had twin siblings, something that would stick in any persons mind.
It is ridiculous to suggest that all these nannies are not telling the truth. The idea that Madeleine was not at the crèche all week is utterly stupid.
These nannies have given statements to the police, if they hadn't seen Madeleine then they would have said so as some have.
I totally agree Lace. There was absolutely no reason for the nannies to lie about anything - unless we are to believe they agreed to be part of a conspiracy to cover up the death of a child - a concept which is straight out of fantasyland IMO as there is not a single credible reason why several normal, sane people would agree to do something which is obviously sooooooo stupid - not to mention dangerous. The whole idea is bonkers imo.
IMO all witnesses genuinely and truthfully gave their accounts of that week to the best of their ability. However - due to the fallibility of memory - that doesn't mean their recollections would always be 100% accurate - so obviously there will be discrepancies.
IMO some sceptics clearly do not comprehend that fact and believe that discrepancies automatically mean that people must be deliberately lying - and hence barmy conspiracies (like this one) are born.
Fortunately for the justice system - professional, experienced policemen know better.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 16, 2016, 11:34:39 AM
Dianne Webster says she saw the children at high tea, she specifically says she didn't see Madeleine on the Thursday as she was at the beach, but she says she saw the children the rest of the week. No where in her statement does she say Madeleine was missing from high tea up to the Thursday.
Then of course I doubt if the word of Dianne Webster will be believed either.
I remember reading her statement and as far as i remember ,,,,she could hardly remember anything
purely non commital............i think ...i don't remember ...etc etc
okay....you can be forgiven for ..forgetting what happend after maddie went .[shock etc]...but not the days before ...
and 4078 ”A long day.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah err and then Sunday I mean everyday is so much the same I just find it very difficult to recollect.”
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 16, 2016, 11:38:22 AM
I remember reading her statement and as far as i remember ,,,,she could hardly remember anything
purely non commital............i think ...i don't remember ...etc etc
okay....you can be forgiven for ..forgetting what happend after maddie went .[shock etc]...but not the days before ...
and 4078 ”A long day.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah err and then Sunday I mean everyday is so much the same I just find it very difficult to recollect.”
I get much the same after a few Gin & Tonics. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 16, 2016, 11:53:10 AM
Richard Hall has rehashed a myth which has grown very tired in the telling and retelling ... and it appears to be the only 'information' which he has imparted in four hours of video, glad he managed to miss out on "clones". Or did he? Not having the stamina to sit through four hours of drivel, I suppose I will never know and I will care even less.
OK ... back to basics.
Did he give any indication of how the supposed foul deed came about? Was it accidental? Was it deliberate?
Did he give any indication of where the the corpse was stored in the period between death and being seen carried through the streets of Luz? I don't think Mary Smith's question would have been, "Is she sleeping?" The bloating and bodily secretions leaking from the nose and mouth would have been a dead giveaway ... pun intended.
The practicalities of concealing a dead child's body for a period of days seems to have been so challenging that Richard Hall has glossed them over and gone right to the ludicrous suggestion that she wasn't seen on her holiday.
Cleaners cleaned the apartment and surrounding areas ... Gardeners and maintenance were working ... Holidaymakers were on the beach and all over the place ... Locals walking their dogs or otherwise going about their business ...
Why did none spot the body of a dead child? I suggest because there wasn't one. I suggest that the people on record as having either seen or had contact with Madeleine McCann during the week of her holiday were neither mistaken nor part of a world wide conspiracy cover-up.
They saw an innocent little girl enjoying her holiday in the bosom of her family like all the other children there; she was the one who didn't come home ... not because of anything which some self seeking nonentity suggest happened to her on the Sunday ... but because of what happened to her on the Thursday of that week when she was stolen from her bed.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 16, 2016, 12:00:27 PM
I totally agree Lace. There was absolutely no reason for the nannies to lie about anything - unless we are to believe they agreed to be part of a conspiracy to cover up the death of a child - a concept which is straight out of fantasyland IMO as there is not a single credible reason why several normal, sane people would agree to do something which is obviously sooooooo stupid - not to mention dangerous. The whole idea is bonkers imo.
IMO all witnesses genuinely and truthfully gave their accounts of that week to the best of their ability. However - due to the fallibility of memory - that doesn't mean their recollections would always be 100% accurate - so obviously there will be discrepancies.
IMO some sceptics clearly do not comprehend that fact and believe that discrepancies automatically mean that people must be deliberately lying - and hence barmy conspiracies (like this one) are born.
Fortunately for the justice system - professional, experienced policemen know better.
Madeleine's presence may not have been specifically noticed by those who didn't have to know she was there as those taking her to and from activities had to know ... but I suggest had she not been present it would have caused comment and excuses would have been required to explain her absence.
The suggestion she was not seen from Sunday onwards is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 16, 2016, 03:04:30 PM
Richard Hall has rehashed a myth which has grown very tired in the telling and retelling ... and it appears to be the only 'information' which he has imparted in four hours of video, glad he managed to miss out on "clones". Or did he? Not having the stamina to sit through four hours of drivel, I suppose I will never know and I will care even less.
OK ... back to basics.
Did he give any indication of how the supposed foul deed came about? Was it accidental? Was it deliberate?
Did he give any indication of where the the corpse was stored in the period between death and being seen carried through the streets of Luz? I don't think Mary Smith's question would have been, "Is she sleeping?" The bloating and bodily secretions leaking from the nose and mouth would have been a dead giveaway ... pun intended.
The practicalities of concealing a dead child's body for a period of days seems to have been so challenging that Richard Hall has glossed them over and gone right to the ludicrous suggestion that she wasn't seen on her holiday.
Cleaners cleaned the apartment and surrounding areas ... Gardeners and maintenance were working ... Holidaymakers were on the beach and all over the place ... Locals walking their dogs or otherwise going about their business ...
Why did none spot the body of a dead child? I suggest because there wasn't one. I suggest that the people on record as having either seen or had contact with Madeleine McCann during the week of her holiday were neither mistaken nor part of a world wide conspiracy cover-up.
They saw an innocent little girl enjoying her holiday in the bosom of her family like all the other children there; she was the one who didn't come home ... not because of anything which some self seeking nonentity suggest happened to her on the Sunday ... but because of what happened to her on the Thursday of that week when she was stolen from her bed.
i suggest you ask ...RDH...he has a page for anything you disagree with
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 16, 2016, 03:06:21 PM
Madeleine's presence may not have been specifically noticed by those who didn't have to know she was there as those taking her to and from activities had to know ... but I suggest had she not been present it would have caused comment and excuses would have been required to explain her absence.
The suggestion she was not seen from Sunday onwards is ludicrous.
not as ludicrous.....as the abduction....[ah one of mccs favorite words]
mccs said maddie was abducted .....to this day ...nothing to..... back that up .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 16, 2016, 04:07:16 PM
not as ludicrous.....as the abduction....[ah one of mccs favorite words]
mccs said maddie was abducted .....to this day ...nothing to..... back that up .
I didn't mention 'abduction'. My post was about Richard Hall's assertion (??? apparently, as I have not watched his videos) that Madeleine "died" on the Sunday and therefore could not have been seen between then and Thursday.
You must concede that it would not be an easy thing to do to conceal that one of the children who had travelled in a party was missing without her absence being noticed.
Who was the child masquerading as Madeleine and being signed in and out of the crèche and who took part in activities?
The files do not contain every iota of the McCann holiday nor do they contain all the intelligence gathered. One of the first diligences performed by the PJ was to find out when and where Madeleine was seen as well as when she was last seen by someone who was not a family member.
It was elementary and it was carried out. Mr Amaral has come up with one or two interesting ideas as to how the body was disposed of ... he has never made the suggestion that anything happened to her before the alarm was raised on Thursday. That is because he had the evidence that was not the case. To think the PJ did not check this out thoroughly is, I think, rather an insult to them.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 16, 2016, 04:17:19 PM
i suggest you ask ...RDH...he has a page for anything you disagree with
Richard Hall is not a member of the forum as far as I am aware.
You started the thread and have promoted Richard Hall's opinion in various posts since then. If he has made an assertion, I presume he has backed up how he reached his conclusions. In my opinion that would include some suggestion as to what was done with the child's body he claims was lying about somewhere in Luz between Sunday and Thursday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 16, 2016, 05:07:53 PM
Date: 2007/05/08
Witness Statement
Jacqueline Mary Williams
Occupation: Pre-school teacher
Place of Work: OC
Statement translated by Robert Murat.
She has been in Portugal since 27th March 2007, the date on which she began work at the OC, where she works as a pre-school teacher, she signed her contract with MW in London.
She clarifies that between the dates of 23rd April to 4th May 2007 she worked with a group of children belonging to OC guests, aged between 12 months and two years, called "Toddlers 1".
When questioned she states that the crêche is open every day, except for Saturdays at the resort, which is the day off for all the nannies, on Saturdays there is just a support service for any eventual need, involving two nannies.
She also clarifies that the "Toddlers 1" group is divided into two subgroups of children, each composed of three children each group dependent on one nanny and that she was responsible for one of these subgroups.
With regard to the facts being investigated, she says that in brief moments and in a formal manner (just saying "hello" and "goodbye") she had contact with Madeleine, explaining that she did not belong to her group, these contacts took place when the children were eating, as all the children ate together in the Tapas at the same time.
She says that Madeleine belonged to the Mini Club group for children aged between three and five, explaining that the Mini Club installations were in the same building as the OC reception and that the Toddlers are next to the Tapas bar.
She mentions that Madeleine has two twin siblings (a boy and a girl) aged two, who belonged to the Toddlers 2 group.
So, a nanny who witnessed Madeleine having high tea.
No doubt this won't be Madeleine she saw, it will be a stand in, who is sitting next to the twins.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 16, 2016, 05:42:49 PM
She has been in Portugal since 27th March 2007, the date on which she began work at the OC, where she works as a pre-school teacher, she signed her contract with MW in London.
She clarifies that between the dates of 23rd April to 4th May 2007 she worked with a group of children belonging to OC guests, aged between 12 months and two years, called "Toddlers 1".
When questioned she states that the crêche is open every day, except for Saturdays at the resort, which is the day off for all the nannies, on Saturdays there is just a support service for any eventual need, involving two nannies.
She also clarifies that the "Toddlers 1" group is divided into two subgroups of children, each composed of three children each group dependent on one nanny and that she was responsible for one of these subgroups.
With regard to the facts being investigated, she says that in brief moments and in a formal manner (just saying "hello" and "goodbye") she had contact with Madeleine, explaining that she did not belong to her group, these contacts took place when the children were eating, as all the children ate together in the Tapas at the same time.
She says that Madeleine belonged to the Mini Club group for children aged between three and five, explaining that the Mini Club installations were in the same building as the OC reception and that the Toddlers are next to the Tapas bar.
She mentions that Madeleine has two twin siblings (a boy and a girl) aged two, who belonged to the Toddlers 2 group.
So, a nanny who witnessed Madeleine having high tea.
No doubt this won't be Madeleine she saw, it will be a stand in, who is sitting next to the twins.
Have you been watching "Albert RN" on an old movie channel ? or perhaps Mr Hall had.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 16, 2016, 08:42:37 PM
She has been in Portugal since 27th March 2007, the date on which she began work at the OC, where she works as a pre-school teacher, she signed her contract with MW in London.
She clarifies that between the dates of 23rd April to 4th May 2007 she worked with a group of children belonging to OC guests, aged between 12 months and two years, called "Toddlers 1".
When questioned she states that the crêche is open every day, except for Saturdays at the resort, which is the day off for all the nannies, on Saturdays there is just a support service for any eventual need, involving two nannies.
She also clarifies that the "Toddlers 1" group is divided into two subgroups of children, each composed of three children each group dependent on one nanny and that she was responsible for one of these subgroups.
With regard to the facts being investigated, she says that in brief moments and in a formal manner (just saying "hello" and "goodbye") she had contact with Madeleine, explaining that she did not belong to her group, these contacts took place when the children were eating, as all the children ate together in the Tapas at the same time.
She says that Madeleine belonged to the Mini Club group for children aged between three and five, explaining that the Mini Club installations were in the same building as the OC reception and that the Toddlers are next to the Tapas bar.
She mentions that Madeleine has two twin siblings (a boy and a girl) aged two, who belonged to the Toddlers 2 group.
So, a nanny who witnessed Madeleine having high tea.
No doubt this won't be Madeleine she saw, it will be a stand in, who is sitting next to the twins.
Why the assumption that Madeleine would be seated next to the twins? I would expect each group to be seated together so the nanny in charge of them had them all in sight until they were signed out by their parents.
There were 15 children between 3 and 5 years, 8 babies, 18 Toddlers and 7 Juniors present that week; total 48. All were entitled to High Tea. Some would arrive with nannys and some with parents. There were many siblings. No nanny worth the title would allow her charges to leave their group until a parent came and signed for them.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 17, 2016, 08:47:09 AM
Why the assumption that Madeleine would be seated next to the twins? I would expect each group to be seated together so the nanny in charge of them had them all in sight until they were signed out by their parents.
There were 15 children between 3 and 5 years, 8 babies, 18 Toddlers and 7 Juniors present that week; total 48. All were entitled to High Tea. Some would arrive with nannys and some with parents. There were many siblings. No nanny worth the title would allow her charges to leave their group until a parent came and signed for them.
The parents were present when the children ate their tea, I would imagine that when the parents arrived the children would be seated with the parents.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 17, 2016, 08:51:57 AM
Madeleine's presence may not have been specifically noticed by those who didn't have to know she was there as those taking her to and from activities had to know ... but I suggest had she not been present it would have caused comment and excuses would have been required to explain her absence.
The suggestion she was not seen from Sunday onwards is ludicrous.
This 'stand in child' she must have been a brilliant little actress. Can you imagine a child of four suddenly being asked to be the child of someone else's parents. Being briefed quickly with 'you must call these people Mummy and Daddy and the twins are your brother and sister ok?' no child of four would be able to step into that role for a week. Also this child would strangely be holidaying at just the right time.
Or maybe the McCann's went to the crèche with no child and just signed Madeleine in? Can you imagine that? 'where's Madeleine' 'what do you mean, she's right there'.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 17, 2016, 09:14:38 AM
This 'stand in child' she must have been a brilliant little actress. Can you imagine a child of four suddenly being asked to be the child of someone else's parents. Being briefed quickly with 'you must call these people Mummy and Daddy and the twins are your brother and sister ok?' no child of four would be able to step into that role for a week. Also this child would strangely be holidaying at just the right time.
Or maybe the McCann's went to the crèche with no child and just signed Madeleine in? Can you imagine that? 'where's Madeleine' 'what do you mean, she's right there'.
The whole idea of a substitute child is too ridiculous for words.
Also:
Imagine as an employee of MW being approached by someone who was a total stranger to you until a couple of days ago - who tells you that their child has died in their apartment and they want you to help them to cover it up from the police.
Would you:
Call the police?
Call the men in white coats?
or say
Oh is that all? Yes of course I will. No problem - what do you want me to do?. Oh btw - what was your name again? -----------------------------------------------------
The idea that they would agree to becoming an accessory to such a serious crime - is as ludicrous as the idea that Gerry would approach a complete stranger with such an admission and request in the first place.
AIMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 17, 2016, 09:21:54 AM
The whole idea of a substitute child is too ridiculous for words.
Also:
Imagine as an employee of MW being approached by someone who was a total stranger to you until a couple of days ago - who tells you that their child has died in their apartment and they want you to help them to cover it up from the police.
Would you:
Call the police?
Call the men in white coats?
or say
Oh is that all? Yes of course I will. No problem - what do you want me to do?. Oh btw - what was your name again? -----------------------------------------------------
The idea that they would agree to becoming an accessory to such a serious crime - is as ludicrous as the idea that Gerry would approach a complete stranger with such an admission and request in the first place.
AIMO
Yet this man is selling his video's and touring giving lectures beggars belief.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2016, 09:31:29 AM
Some people seem to feel that the nannies aren't credible, but fail to take into account the possibility of mistakes in the summary statements:
Amy Tierney: The hours of the club are from 09.00 to 12.30 and from 14.30 to 17.30, the club is closed on Sundays on that day it only offers the dinner service.
Jacqueline Mary Williams: When questioned she states that the crêche is open every day, except for Saturdays at the resort, which is the day off for all the nannies, on Saturdays there is just a support service for any eventual need, involving two nannies.
The crèche records show that they were open on Sundays. Being closed on Saturday makes more sense as that would be the changeover day for families on a one-week holiday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 17, 2016, 09:33:19 AM
The whole idea of a substitute child is too ridiculous for words.
Also:
Imagine as an employee of MW being approached by someone who was a total stranger to you until a couple of days ago - who tells you that their child has died in their apartment and they want you to help them to cover it up from the police.
Would you:
Call the police?
Call the men in white coats?
or say
Oh is that all? Yes of course I will. No problem - what do you want me to do?. Oh btw - what was your name again? -----------------------------------------------------
The idea that they would agree to becoming an accessory to such a serious crime - is as ludicrous as the idea that Gerry would approach a complete stranger with such an admission and request in the first place.
AIMO
It is easy enough to dream up a particular scenario if one is minded to do so and post a film about it on You Tube ~ which in my experience is not an imprimatur. It is however insulting peoples' intelligence if the suggested scenario is absolutely unworkable when all the individuals who had contact with the subject of the alleged plot are factored into the equation.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 17, 2016, 09:38:08 AM
The parents were present when the children ate their tea, I would imagine that when the parents arrived the children would be seated with the parents.
In which case the signing out would have been at the beginning of the meal, not the end.
where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Concerning the operating hours, there are four separate services.
Yet this man is selling his video's and touring giving lectures beggars belief.
We know he is a conspiracy theorist with an opinion on almost everything whether inexplicable or not, if it isn't he will make it so. But in my opinion out of respect for his target audience he should at least do the modicum of research to back up his theories.
I've not looked at where he is coming from on other issues ... and the man has to make a living somehow ... but this one 'revelation' from four hours of video is very simply unworkable.
The sources you have quoted in other posts from various unconnected individuals are proof of that. Madeleine was undoubtedly seen alive and well over the period when this man suggests she lay dead ... somewhere? ... anywhere?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 17, 2016, 09:50:06 AM
Yet this man is selling his video's and touring giving lectures beggars belief.
yes maybe to you
but not to the many thousands who have seen the video's ....and the packed attendance at his lectures[in fact he gets a standing ovation...not everyone believes the mccs ...or the abduction
every thing is there for all to see...so it is legal..it cant be proved what he is showing ...is not true
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 17, 2016, 10:05:28 AM
I didn't mention 'abduction'. My post was about Richard Hall's assertion (??? apparently, as I have not watched his videos) that Madeleine "died" on the Sunday and therefore could not have been seen between then and Thursday.
You must concede that it would not be an easy thing to do to conceal that one of the children who had travelled in a party was missing without her absence being noticed.
Who was the child masquerading as Madeleine and being signed in and out of the crèche and who took part in activities?
The files do not contain every iota of the McCann holiday nor do they contain all the intelligence gathered. One of the first diligences performed by the PJ was to find out when and where Madeleine was seen as well as when she was last seen by someone who was not a family member.
It was elementary and it was carried out. Mr Amaral has come up with one or two interesting ideas as to how the body was disposed of ... he has never made the suggestion that anything happened to her before the alarm was raised on Thursday. That is because he had the evidence that was not the case. To think the PJ did not check this out thoroughly is, I think, rather an insult to them.
insult to the PJ ............
all of a sudden G A is right...you have changed your tune ...or is it just to suit your agenda ....
you don't know what happened to maddie ....it does come across you don't care either ....and go to great lengths to back the abduction up
but you cannot can you ....there is no ...no proff abduction took place.
your wrong as well criticising the work of R H ...when you haven't even seen it ...
so is your sole purpose that of destroying ..anything to show maybe abduction did not take place ....because there is nothing to say ..that it did
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 17, 2016, 10:14:23 AM
In which case the signing out would have been at the beginning of the meal, not the end.
where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Concerning the operating hours, there are four separate services.
insult to the PJ ............well your the one good at that usually
all of a sudden G A is right...you have changed your tune ...or is it just to suit your agenda ....
you don't know what happened to maddie ....it does come across you don't care either ....and go to great lengths to back the abduction up
but you cannot can you ....there is no ...no proff abduction took place.
your wrong as well criticising the work of R H ...when you haven't even seen it ...
so is your sole purpose that of destroying ..anything to show maybe abduction did not take place ....because there is nothing to say ..that it did
One of the very first things the PJ did when Goncalo Amaral was co-ordinator was to ascertain who the victim was and when she was last seen by a non-family member.
Your promotion of Richard Hall's theory that Madeleine McCann had not to all intents and purposes existed since the Sunday of her arrival in Luz flies in the face of that ... and in my opinion suggests that you consider the PJ and the co-ordinator were negligent ... really, really negligent ... or complete and utter idiots.
That is not my opinion of them and never really has been.
What is your explanation of how Richard Hall was able to pick up on facts you obviously think the PJ missed?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 17, 2016, 10:49:43 AM
all of a sudden G A is right...you have changed your tune ...or is it just to suit your agenda ....
you don't know what happened to maddie ....it does come across you don't care either ....and go to great lengths to back the abduction up
but you cannot can you ....there is no ...no proff abduction took place.
your wrong as well criticising the work of R H ...when you haven't even seen it ...
so is your sole purpose that of destroying ..anything to show maybe abduction did not take place ....because there is nothing to say ..that it did
I have made no secret of the fact I have not subjected myself to four hours of Richard Hall's videos.
I have relied on the learned discussion which has taken place between those who have for my information.
That would include you?
To date absolutely nothing has been put forward to substantiate the claim made that Madeleine (Died?) on the Sunday of her arrival in Luz and I consider it to be absolute balderdash.
I have read many well researched posts on this thread which have established that Richard Hall's claim is not only lacking in research but is totally misguided and wrong.
On those facts I have based my opinion and my posts.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 17, 2016, 11:58:08 AM
So you think the nannies were helping feed the twins?
High Tea began at 5pm? The children were cared for by the nannys until 5.30pm, so obviously the nannys supervised the children during the meal. Most days each nanny had no more than two children each to care for.
That she only knows that Madeleine McCanns parents would come to pick her up, as with her siblings, between 17H15 and 17H30, at the location where all the children of the creche got together to have dinner, in the Tapas restaurant, related to the resort in question; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUSAN-OWEN.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 17, 2016, 02:00:22 PM
When there is zero evidence Madeleine is dead, why was a thread like this allowed to see light of day, let alone run to 64 pages?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 17, 2016, 02:04:19 PM
Goncalo Amaral states that Dr. David Payne saw Madeleine, alive and well, at around 5pm May 3rd (2007).
Amaral didn't get much right, but that is one of the (few!) things he did (get right!)
What is wrong with giving credit where it's due?
Do you have a cite for that please? I think Amaral was referring to the nanny. He wasn't too sure about Dr David Payne's evidence that he saw Madeleine at 6.30pm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 17, 2016, 05:06:21 PM
Yet this man is selling his video's and touring giving lectures beggars belief.
Why? If you take off the limited view "McCann spectacles" and don "wider world spectacles" you will note that books are being written yet about the assassinations of Abe Lincoln and Jack Kennedy and also the Moors Murders to name but three not forgetting that books were being written about JonBenet Ramsey eight years after her death. Everyone loves a mystery or conspiracy theory, a gory mystery being even better. Added to which they will sell.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 17, 2016, 05:19:04 PM
but not to the many thousands who have seen the video's ....and the packed attendance at his lectures[in fact he gets a standing ovation...not everyone believes the mccs ...or the abduction
every thing is there for all to see...so it is legal..it cant be proved what he is showing ...is not true
One of his venues was a local snooker club...not sure what the attendance was but I bet they were disappointed he didn't do any trick shots
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 17, 2016, 05:20:53 PM
Why? If you take off the limited view "McCann spectacles" and don "wider world spectacles" you will note that books are being written yet about the assassinations of Abe Lincoln and Jack Kennedy and also the Moors Murders to name but three not forgetting that books were being written about JonBenet Ramsey eight years after her death. Everyone loves a mystery or conspiracy theory, a gory mystery being even better. Added to which they will sell.
the wider world glasses enable him to see that there is one born every minute
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2016, 05:21:20 PM
Why? If you take off the limited view "McCann spectacles" and don "wider world spectacles" you will note that books are being written yet about the assassinations of Abe Lincoln and Jack Kennedy and also the Moors Murders to name but three not forgetting that books were being written about JonBenet Ramsey eight years after her death. Everyone loves a mystery or conspiracy theory, a gory mystery being even better. Added to which they will sell.
True, Alice. However in the cases you've cited the victim was definitely dead.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 17, 2016, 05:34:36 PM
True, Alice. However in the cases you've cited the victim was definitely dead.
I don't really see that makes a lot of difference to the principle of "mysteries and conspiracy theories will sell" which can and will be exploited. Supporters have their own conspiracy theories they scarcely wish to acknowledge but are trotted out regularly in justification of something or other. Reading back through the threads you will find testimony to that proposition. As I said before, Mr Hall blew his own theory away half way through reel one but here we are 64 pages later........... &%+((£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 17, 2016, 06:39:45 PM
but not to the many thousands who have seen the video's ....and the packed attendance at his lectures[in fact he gets a standing ovation...not everyone believes the mccs ...or the abduction
every thing is there for all to see...so it is legal..it cant be proved what he is showing ...is not true
Yes, and thousands believe the 9/11 bombings was a conspiracy too extina.
Look at what you're saying, the McCann's going the whole week without Madeleine, how???
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 17, 2016, 06:43:22 PM
Well, he's obviously making a comfortable living at it. And hopefully not On Benefits.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 17, 2016, 07:10:56 PM
Do you have a cite for that please? I think Amaral was referring to the nanny. He wasn't too sure about Dr David Payne's evidence that he saw Madeleine at 6.30pm
Let's note that at 7pm, the last person to see Maddie - apart from her parents - is David Payne.
(Goncalo Amaral)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 17, 2016, 07:38:37 PM
Let's note that at 7pm, the last person to see Maddie - apart from her parents - is David Payne.
(Goncalo Amaral)
Kate McCann 6th September;
Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.”
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 17, 2016, 07:48:31 PM
Goncalo Amaral states that Dr. David Payne saw Madeleine, alive and well, at around 5pm May 3rd (2007).
Amaral didn't get much right, but that is one of the (few!) things he did (get right!)
What is wrong with giving credit where it's due?
No he did not, that was Mike Marshall of the Leicester Police
I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
Which contradicts in three ways his/others interviews vis a vis time, persons present and reason for being there, plus how long was there,not to mention that none of the Mccanns were in the apartment at 1700 hrs
?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 17, 2016, 08:05:11 PM
Yes he did.
See my quote above.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 17, 2016, 08:17:42 PM
Your Amaral quote mentions 7pm not 5pm, as you earlier said in another post. While your post is correct in spirit it wasnt in the letter.Just saying for accuracy.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 08:04:56 AM
One of the very first things the PJ did when Goncalo Amaral was co-ordinator was to ascertain who the victim was and when she was last seen by a non-family member.
Your promotion of Richard Hall's theory that Madeleine McCann had not to all intents and purposes existed since the Sunday of her arrival in Luz flies in the face of that ... and in my opinion suggests that you consider the PJ and the co-ordinator were negligent ... really, really negligent ... or complete and utter idiots.
That is not my opinion of them and never really has been.
What is your explanation of how Richard Hall was able to pick up on facts you obviously think the PJ missed?
the short answer to this is that amaral should never have been took off this case in mid flow ...who knows what stance he would have took ...or uncovered ...if left to continue ...i believe he would have got to the truth ...if he had been left to it ...before the political issue took over
as for R H ....repeat of OP
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. This clue suggests that Madeleine may have died and her body lain in the apartment for a period of time. Assuming this is correct, what date and time did Madeleine die? The most logical way to address this question is to go back in time to determine what was the last piece of credible evidence, which proves Madeleine was alive. This film attempts to do this by forensically examining witness statements, photographs, physical evidence, police reports and media reports. In doing so the film exposes the agenda of the mainstream media which has, on the whole, helped to cover up the truth about the Madeleine McCann case.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 08:05:48 AM
I have made no secret of the fact I have not subjected myself to four hours of Richard Hall's videos.
I have relied on the learned discussion which has taken place between those who have for my information.
That would include you?
To date absolutely nothing has been put forward to substantiate the claim made that Madeleine (Died?) on the Sunday of her arrival in Luz and I consider it to be absolute balderdash.
I have read many well researched posts on this thread which have established that Richard Hall's claim is not only lacking in research but is totally misguided and wrong.
On those facts I have based my opinion and my posts.
so in other words..on R H ....you rely on hearsay
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2016, 09:22:06 AM
the short answer to this is that amaral should never have been took off this case in mid flow ...who knows what stance he would have took ...or uncovered ...if left to continue ...i believe he would have got to the truth ...if he had been left to it ...before the political issue took over
as for R H ....repeat of OP
WHEN MADELEINE DIED? The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs.
This clue suggests that Madeleine may have died and her body lain in the apartment for a period of time. Assuming this is correct, what date and time did Madeleine die? The most logical way to address this question is to go back in time to determine what was the last piece of credible evidence, which proves Madeleine was alive. This film attempts to do this by forensically examining witness statements, photographs, physical evidence, police reports and media reports. In doing so the film exposes the agenda of the mainstream media which has, on the whole, helped to cover up the truth about the Madeleine McCann case.
Would you agree that according to M. Grime that first sentence is not true?
It seems to me that RH is under the mistaken impression that a human corpse MUST have been present in all the places Eddie and/or Keela barked.
According to M. Grime - that is not the case.
So who do you believe is correct - RH or the dog handler himself.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 09:39:53 AM
When there is zero evidence Madeleine is dead, why was a thread like this allowed to see light of day, let alone run to 64 pages?
there is zero evidence ..for the abduction is there .....
imagine a thread on proof that maddie was abducted ...one post with erm.....erm.......erm,.oh ye ...the mccs said she was ...
the thread has a lot of interest ...judging by the views
something is not right ....
things are not as credable as they seem....
five photo's taken ..sat sun ...no more taken the rest of the week......
last photo shown three weeks later ...after gmcc trip to England ....
last credable sighting as family of five ..sunday....
the doubt about the weather being hot on the 3rd....
the creche records .....a lot to be desired ...on who signed what ...etc etc etc.....
the inconsistencies ...in statements ...
why ...would they be so sure it was maddie they had seen ...when eighteen month old photo was shown ...that greatly resembled ...other children in the group..
and that is just a few of the things shown
R H .....has shown ..nothing with the mccs adds up .....and he is not going to stand back like an idiot ...believing what the mccs say ...when there is so much that could prove otherwise.....thousands and thousands of others think the same ....[what ever there own reason or when it happened] ....that maddie was not abducted ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 09:44:46 AM
stop trying to make out its..... as simple as that ,....because it isn't ... 8**8:/:
its a question of do you believe maddie was abducted ....it may suprise you ....but i don't think she was ...
On the contrary it is RH who is making out that ''it's as simple as that'' with his very clear claim that :-
Quote
The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. End quote.
Martin Grime has never made that claim - and in fact has given reasons why the dog alerts (without evidence to substantiate them ) should NOT be regarded as proof that a human corpse must have been present in 5A - or anywhere else - and therefore RH is grossly misleading his 'viewers' by making that false statement.
RH has obviously decided Martin Grime was wrong and he is right.
You may find that acceptable. However, in view of the already widespread mistaken belief that because Eddie alerted 'someone must have died in 5A' - I find such shoddy research to be reprehensible as it further promotes what is actually a myth.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 10:37:17 AM
Would you agree that according to M. Grime that first sentence is not true?
It seems to me that RH is under the mistaken impression that a human corpse MUST have been present in all the places Eddie and/or Keela barked.
According to M. Grime - that is not the case.
So who do you believe is correct - RH or the dog handler himself.
Grime said Eddie only barks when he finds the scent he is trained to find.
Grime said Eddie's behaviour at G5A demonstrated immediate interest.
Grime said that interest led Eddie to the bedroom where he barked.
Finally;
Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Intelligence is what Eddie provided. Detectives begin with intelligence and work towards getting evidence. No possibility can be ruled out and that includes the possibility that there was a cadaver in the apartment. Further investigation may point towards or away from that scenario, but it will have been kept in mind.
I have seen nothing to date which 'proves' there was no cadaver there.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 10:49:45 AM
On the contrary it is RH who is making out that ''it's as simple as that'' with his very clear claim that :-
Quote
The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. End quote.
Martin Grime has never made that claim - and in fact has given reasons why the dog alerts (without evidence to substantiate them ) should NOT be regarded as proof that a human corpse must have been present in 5A - or anywhere else - and therefore RH is grossly misleading his 'viewers' by making that false statement.
RH has obviously decided Martin Grime was wrong and he is right.
You may find that acceptable. However, in view of the already widespread mistaken belief that because Eddie alerted 'someone must have died in 5A' - I find such shoddy research to be reprehensible as it further promotes what is actually a myth.
AIMHO
RH is grossly misleading his 'viewers' by making that false statement.
well I'm sure if that is the case ....something would have been done about it by now ...but it hasn't has it
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 10:51:08 AM
Grime said Eddie only barks when he finds the scent he is trained to find.
Grime said Eddie's behaviour at G5A demonstrated immediate interest.
Grime said that interest led Eddie to the bedroom where he barked.
Finally;
Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Intelligence is what Eddie provided. Detectives begin with intelligence and work towards getting evidence. No possibility can be ruled out and that includes the possibility that there was a cadaver in the apartment. Further investigation may point towards or away from that scenario, but it will have been kept in mind.
I have seen nothing to date which 'proves' there was no cadaver there.
exactly
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2016, 11:21:10 AM
Grime said Eddie only barks when he finds the scent he is trained to find.
Grime said Eddie's behaviour at G5A demonstrated immediate interest.
Grime said that interest led Eddie to the bedroom where he barked.
Finally;
Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Intelligence is what Eddie provided. Detectives begin with intelligence and work towards getting evidence. No possibility can be ruled out and that includes the possibility that there was a cadaver in the apartment. Further investigation may point towards or away from that scenario, but it will have been kept in mind.
I have seen nothing to date which 'proves' there was no cadaver there.
My post was not about the abilities of the dogs . It was in response to RH's specific statement that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse in 5A, That is a massive claim to make IMO - especially if you are talking to an audience who may not be aware of all the relevant facts/information about dog alerts.
Would you agree that those people (including RH) who believe that because Eddie barked - the only possible explanation for that is that a dead body MUST have been in 5A at some time - are in fact misinformed?
Either MG is right when he warns against making certain assumptions and RH's claim is not true - or RH is right and MG has got it all wrong. He can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 11:38:31 AM
My post was not about the abilities of the dogs . It was in response to RH's specific statement that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse in 5A, That is a massive claim to make IMO - especially if you are talking to an audience who may not be aware of all the relevant facts/information about dog alerts.
Would you agree that those people (including RH) who believe that because Eddie barked - the only possible explanation for that is that a dead body MUST have been in 5A at some time - are in fact misinformed?
Either MG is right when he warns against making certain assumptions and RH's claim is not true - or RH is right and MG has got it all wrong. He can't have it both ways.
That is a massive claim to make IMO
so take it up with R H...he has made it ...and up till now ..no one has questioned it ...from the mcc camp have they...
in this case ....its a matter of who you prefere to believe .....on what you believe ...like if maddie was not abducted like thousands believe ...what did happen to her
its like we all had to believe ...J T saw abductor ....then low and behold ...after six odd years ...it turned out he wasn't ....the abductor ...something at the time that backed the mccs story ...[well the only thing].
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 12:08:37 PM
My post was not about the abilities of the dogs . It was in response to RH's specific statement that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse in 5A, That is a massive claim to make IMO - especially if you are talking to an audience who may not be aware of all the relevant facts/information about dog alerts.
Would you agree that those people (including RH) who believe that because Eddie barked - the only possible explanation for that is that a dead body MUST have been in 5A at some time - are in fact misinformed?
Either MG is right when he warns against making certain assumptions and RH's claim is not true - or RH is right and MG has got it all wrong. He can't have it both ways.
I'm sure Martin Grime believed in his dogs, that's clear from the way he described them. Nevertheless, as a police officer who deals in evidence he had to make it clear that the dog alerts didn't count as evidence in a court of law.
If other people choose to believe in the dogs that's their choice. RH may be misleading people, but he's not the first and he won't be the last to do that in this case.
The McCann's friends and relatives were the first to mislead people by telling the media that the apartment had been broken into. Someone mislead The Lancet by telling them that Madeleine had a coloboma. Clarence Mitchell mislead people when he said it wasn't true that Gerry McCann received lots of text messages the day before his daughter disappeared.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2016, 12:12:34 PM
so take it up with R H...he has made it ...and up till now ..no one has questioned it ...from the mcc camp have they...
in this case ....its a matter of who you prefere to believe .....on what you believe ...like if maddie was not abducted like thousands believe ...what did happen to her
its like we all had to believe ...J T saw abductor ....then low and behold ...after six odd years ...it turned out he wasn't ....the abductor ...something at the time that backed the mccs story ...[well the only thing].
As you are the person promoting RH's video - why don't you take it up with him? Personally I would not be happy to find out that I was promoting a video to the public which includes 'misinformation' about the case.
Can I take it that you believe that because the dogs alerted - a dead body must once have lain in 5A? A simple yes or no will do.
If you have read the relevant files you must know that his blatent statement claiming that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse is not true. If you haven't read those files then maybe you should - as all the wishful thinking in the world won't alter that fact.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 12:24:05 PM
As you are the person promoting RH's video - why don't you take it up with him? Personally I would not be happy to find out that I was promoting a video to the public which includes 'misinformation' about the case.
Can I take it that you believe that because the dogs alerted - a dead body must once have lain in 5A? A simple yes or no will do.
If you have read the relevant files you must know that his blatent statement claiming that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse is not true. If you haven't read those files then maybe you should - as all the wishful thinking in the world won't alter that fact.
what i believe is my choice ....i certainly don't have to narrow it down to a yes or no to you ...
as for promoting R H .....he does a good job of that himself ...this is only a forum ...after all 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 21, 2016, 12:43:03 PM
what i believe is my choice ....i certainly don't have to narrow it down to a yes or no to you ...
as for promoting R H .....he does a good job of that himself ...this is only a forum ...after all 8**8:/:
In fairness RH may not be aware that Eddie alerts to blood as well, and may therefore be a bit confused. Having watched his four videos my impression is that research and attention to detail are not his strong suit.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 21, 2016, 12:48:29 PM
My post was not about the abilities of the dogs . It was in response to RH's specific statement that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse in 5A, That is a massive claim to make IMO - especially if you are talking to an audience who may not be aware of all the relevant facts/information about dog alerts.
Would you agree that those people (including RH) who believe that because Eddie barked - the only possible explanation for that is that a dead body MUST have been in 5A at some time - are in fact misinformed?
Either MG is right when he warns against making certain assumptions and RH's claim is not true - or RH is right and MG has got it all wrong. He can't have it both ways.
After his 'success' in Praia da Luz Eddie also barked in Haute de la Garenne.
Exclusive footage of 'Eddie'- Cadaver Dog at Haut de la Garenne
One of the main factors in determining the evidential value of the alerts from an individual animal is the training record and the field record.
There was nothing found to explain what caused Eddie to bark in Portugal. There was nothing found to explain what caused Eddie to bark in Jersey ... despite, in this case, extensive excavation work carried out.
Therefore Richard Hall is expressing only his belief that Eddie barked at a component of cadaver scent which must have been Madeleine McCann's. It is a belief which is not backed up by any evidence.
Therefore it was wrong of him to include it as fact in his video to point an accusing finger at anyone let alone the parents of the missing child.
I am convinced the Jersey fiasco following on immediately after the visit to Luz illustrates nothing more than Eddie was well past his sell by date in this line of work.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2016, 12:50:11 PM
I'm sure Martin Grime believed in his dogs, that's clear from the way he described them. Nevertheless, as a police officer who deals in evidence he had to make it clear that the dog alerts didn't count as evidence in a court of law.
If other people choose to believe in the dogs that's their choice. RH may be misleading people, but he's not the first and he won't be the last to do that in this case.
The McCann's friends and relatives were the first to mislead people by telling the media that the apartment had been broken into. Someone mislead The Lancet by telling them that Madeleine had a coloboma. Clarence Mitchell mislead people when he said it wasn't true that Gerry McCann received lots of text messages the day before his daughter disappeared.
This thread is about the contents of Richard Hall's video - which is being heralded and promoted by some as a really well researched piece of work by the author. That obviously isn't the case as made apparent from the start by his lack of understanding of the dog alerts.
How many times do we see posts all over the place claiming that 'someone died in 5A'
His claim that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse is false and perpetuates that myth.
Your excuse that other people have made 'misleading' statements is not relevant to this thread IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2016, 12:56:03 PM
After his 'success' in Praia da Luz Eddie also barked in Haute de la Garenne.
Exclusive footage of 'Eddie'- Cadaver Dog at Haut de la Garenne
One of the main factors in determining the evidential value of the alerts from an individual animal is the training record and the field record.
There was nothing found to explain what caused Eddie to bark in Portugal. There was nothing found to explain what caused Eddie to bark in Jersey ... despite, in this case, extensive excavation work carried out.
Therefore Richard Hall is expressing only his belief that Eddie barked at a component of cadaver scent which must have been Madeleine McCann's. It is a belief which is not backed up by any evidence.
Therefore it was wrong of him to include it as fact in his video to point an accusing finger at anyone let alone the parents of the missing child.
I am convinced the Jersey fiasco following on immediately after the visit to Luz illustrates nothing more than Eddie was well past his sell by date in this line of work.
In your opinion as regards the last paragraph.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 01:01:31 PM
This thread is about the contents of Richard Hall's video - which is being heralded and promoted by some as a really well researched piece of work by the author. That obviously isn't the case as made apparent from the start by his lack of understanding of the dog alerts.
How many times do we see posts all over the place claiming that 'someone died in 5A'
His claim that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse is false and perpetuates that myth.
Your excuse that other people have made 'misleading' statements is not relevant to this thread IMO.
His claim that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse is false and perpetuates that myth.
well people can decide for themselves ....can't they ...the links are there for all to see.....on page one of this thread...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 01:13:39 PM
This thread is about the contents of Richard Hall's video - which is being heralded and promoted by some as a really well researched piece of work by the author. That obviously isn't the case as made apparent from the start by his lack of understanding of the dog alerts.
How many times do we see posts all over the place claiming that 'someone died in 5A'
His claim that the dogs detected the past presence of a human corpse is false and perpetuates that myth.
Your excuse that other people have made 'misleading' statements is not relevant to this thread IMO.
It's not an excuse, it's a factual list of misleading statements in answer to your accusation that RH is misleading the British public. Misleading the British public is an enduring feature of this case. Everyone's opinions are based on belief rather than facts. At least RH's belief about the dog alerts hasn't yet been shown to be wrong, unlike the misleading examples I quoted.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2016, 01:38:45 PM
Curious that a thread running to 64 pages was killed stone dead (as a debate) by posts 2 and 4 (on page one).
But still it rumbles on ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 02:00:59 PM
Curious that a thread running to 64 pages was killed stone dead (as a debate) by posts 2 and 4 (on page one).
But still it rumbles on ....
yes cos lets face it .....the crime of what happened to maddie is unknown
soooooo........either some one took maddie .or they didn't ....
i cant believe ....the fact ...a lot on here does not seem interested in what did happen to maddie... if she has not been taken...of which there is no proof she was ....is there.....and no thread she was is rumbling on is there ....because its just the mccs say so ....that is wearing very thin
thank god for R H ...and others ...who i don't have to mention as it is RH thread...who are concerned of what happened to that little girl maddie ...who was not given a chance to live her life ...because of the actions of her parents....and not afraid to speak out......
seems ...very quiet also ...on the mcc front ....C M ...C R .....wonder if the mccs are now left to fend for themselves ....it would have been a different story if they had been in the beginning ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2016, 02:10:19 PM
yes cos lets face it .....the crime of what happened to maddie is unknown
soooooo........either some one took maddie .or they didn't ....
i cant believe ....the fact ...a lot on here does not seem interested in what did happen to maddie... if she has not been taken...of which there is no proof she was ....is there.....and no thread she was is rumbling on is there ....because its just the mccs say so ....that is wearing very thin
thank god for R H ...and others ...who i don't have to mention as it is RH thread...who are concerned of what happened to that little girl maddie ...who was not given a chance to live her life ...because of the actions of her parents....and not afraid to speak out......
seems ...very quiet also ...on the mcc front ....C M ...C R .....wonder if the mccs are now left to fend for themselves ....it would have been a different story if they had been in the beginning ...
So true. Many seem more interested in pushing the view that it had nothing to do with the McCanns than anuthing else.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
It's not an excuse, it's a factual list of misleading statements in answer to your accusation that RH is misleading the British public. Misleading the British public is an enduring feature of this case. Everyone's opinions are based on belief rather than facts. At least RH's belief about the dog alerts hasn't yet been shown to be wrong, unlike the misleading examples I quoted.
Your statements are not factual...hall has told a bare faced untruth...a phrase he likes to use re the mccanns ...when he says the dogs detected cadaver and you are trying to justify the telling of untruths.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 04:06:39 PM
what like when he denied having last photo....then decided to produce it three weeks later .....
the photo probably taken on the Sunday..........there wasn't any more after that was there ....apart from them taking a pic of maddies pyjamas
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2016, 04:12:33 PM
How many of the McCann supporters have watched the current set of material from Mr. Hall ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2016, 04:35:48 PM
How many of the McCann supporters have watched the current set of material from Mr. Hall ?
Why should I want to read it when his first sentence in promoting it is a "bare faced untruth"..I've seen enough of his backround to understand he is not a reliable source...Have you read the Koran
I haven't read any of Ickes's books either
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 21, 2016, 04:36:22 PM
How many of the McCann supporters have watched the current set of material from Mr. Hall ?
I managed to view Part I only so far but I think the title is a bit unfortunate. Mr Hall should not be promoting his opinion as fact simply to created some sensationalism. Only those involved in her disappearance, if such people exist, know if she is alive or dead?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2016, 04:49:01 PM
Can we please cut the word, "Lies?"
Richard Hall could well be mistaken.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2016, 05:04:04 PM
A much better effort than mine ... but I have cheated and watched two of three fifteen minutes edits of what someone who has sat through it thinks are the salient points of the videos ... and imo if that is it, we haven't missed a great deal at all and we've had four extra hours of life (three and a half in my case, and I will watch the other fifteen minutes later) with which to do something more productive.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 21, 2016, 05:28:25 PM
How many of the McCann supporters have watched the current set of material from Mr. Hall ?
Like Mr Wright in court about "that book" . They don't have to watch/read to know it is all wrong! I watched two "reels" imho he cocked it up in the first reel by making a gross assumption, then skating very carefully round the evidence or lack of it to sustain his theory. I doubt the supporters read it otherwise they would have been all over it like a cheap suit and we would not be on page 69 or whatever............ ?{)(** all imho of course.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 21, 2016, 05:30:32 PM
I managed to view Part I only so far but I think the title is a bit unfortunate. Mr Hall should not be promoting his opinion as fact simply to created some sensationalism. Only those involved in her disappearance, if such people exist, know if she is alive or dead?
i don't think he putting his opinion ...as fact ...R H uses the word suggest ...what could have happened ...ot that all we know about ...is not as credable ..as it seems..
It was about the reported disappearance of Madeleine McCann. It was a response to a documentary film by Richard D. Hall titled: “When Madeleine Died?” In that film, Hall - who earlier, in August 2014, nailed his colours to the mast by suggesting that Madeleine’s abduction was a hoax,
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 05:54:29 PM
Your statements are not factual...hall has told a bare faced untruth...a phrase he likes to use re the mccanns ...when he says the dogs detected cadaver and you are trying to justify the telling of untruths.
Not factual? I can provide cites for all of them and I can provide cites to show they were all untrue.
No-one knows whether the dog (Eddie, Keela detected only blood) detected cadaver, so no-one can prove RH is wrong.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 21, 2016, 06:10:09 PM
Not factual? I can provide cites for all of them and I can provide cites to show they were all untrue.
No-one knows whether the dog (Eddie, Keela detected only blood) detected cadaver, so no-one can prove RH is wrong.
this "no one can prove hall wrong " shows the absolute weakeness of his argument...it's a celestial teapot argument. no one can prove Maddie was not abducted by aliens from another solar system...its a very weak and discredited argument
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
hall continually refers to statements by the Mccanns as "bare faced lies"....that's why I used the phrase...it seems its ok to insult the McCanns but not hall...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 07:22:55 PM
He obviously is not a well read man at all ..or a well one either poor little lamb ....
Well if there is ever is a human colony on the Moon, he would be a true loony. 8(*(
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2016, 08:04:44 PM
There is no more proof of the McCanns' innocence than there is proof of Kerry Needham's innocence.
Personally, I have not the slightest doubt of Kerry Needham's innocence and I suspect that those who demand proof of the McCanns' innocence (at least most of them) are just as convinced of Kerry Needham's innocence as me.
There is an imbalance, somewhere ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 21, 2016, 08:08:10 PM
There is no more proof of the McCanns' innocence than there is proof of Kerry Needham's innocence.
Personally, I have not the slightest doubt of Kerry Needham's innocence and I suspect that those who demand proof of the McCanns' innocence (at least most of them) are just as convinced of Kerry Needham's innocence as me.
There is an imbalance, somewhere ....
There is, that at least, mght be more, and it does not originate from us toms dicks and harrys....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2016, 08:15:27 PM
There is no more proof of the McCanns' innocence than there is proof of Kerry Needham's innocence.
Personally, I have not the slightest doubt of Kerry Needham's innocence and I suspect that those who demand proof of the McCanns' innocence (at least most of them) are just as convinced of Kerry Needham's innocence as me.
There is an imbalance, somewhere ....
Wasn't Kerry Needham at work when her child disappeared? The McCanns were in their 'garden'.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2016, 08:50:55 PM
Just as the McCanns haven't (sensible people) ....
Its not your call to state that without even knowing if there was an abduction, just your opinion, it is also a bit cringey imo to state that all sensible people believe the same thing
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 21, 2016, 09:35:31 PM
The prosecutors said what they did as a logical concomitant of there being no evidence of the McCanns guilt; neither of any of their friends ....
Well thank you They were not exonerated or cleared or declared innocent They might be innocent probably are But no official in any land or in any position has ever declared them cleared, innocent, exonerated
Any idea why? It cant be because they believe in or have evidence or have found an abductor because neither is true as far as we know
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 21, 2016, 10:11:44 PM
Well thank you They were not exonerated or cleared or declared innocent They might be innocent probably are But no official in any land or in any position has ever declared them cleared, innocent, exonerated
Any idea why? It cant be because they believe in or have evidence or have found an abductor because neither is true as far as we know
Have I missed something? Can you provide the cute for the mccanns being charged with a crime? And brought before a court? Thanks.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 21, 2016, 10:14:41 PM
Have I missed something? Can you provide the cute for the mccanns being charged with a crime? And brought before a court? Thanks.
They were suspects Thry were let go as suspects because the case was shelved But some say they havebeen cleared and exonerated and declared innocent...ask them ie ferryman
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 21, 2016, 10:22:00 PM
They were suspects Thry were let go as suspects because the case was shelved But some say they havebeen cleared and exonerated and declared innocent...ask them ie ferryman
So you think that all 'suspects' remain so until specifically cleared? By who? How would that actually work? Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 21, 2016, 10:32:04 PM
So you think that all 'suspects' remain so until specifically cleared? By who? How would that actually work? Please enlighten me.
Its normal for police and judiciary system to clear people is it not? To remind you it was ferryman who asserted they have been ckeared/declared innocent...i was asking...who by? No one
Ps people are cleared via albis for one Finding the true crimimal also helps
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 21, 2016, 10:41:12 PM
Its normal for police and judiciary system to clear people is it not? To remind you it was ferryman who asserted they have been ckeared/declared innocent...i was asking...who by? No one
The police do not have the power to declare anyone guilty or innocent (except in a police state). The courts can only determine guilt or innocence in cases brought to them. I realise this may be a difficult concept for you to understand but until proven to be guilty by a court, everyone is in law INNOCENT. It is not somethings g that needs to be determined or declared. It is a simple fact.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th F
Post by: mercury on March 21, 2016, 11:00:41 PM
The police do not have the power to declare anyone guilty or innocent (except in a police state). The courts can only determine guilt or innocence in cases brought to them. I realise this may be a difficult concept for you to understand but until proven to be guilty by a court, everyone is in law INNOCENT. It is not somethings g that needs to be determined or declared. It is a simple fact.
Personal remark about intellgence being ignored, (watch u dont become davel) so.... I agree but tell ferryman the public prosecutor did not declare them innocent as he has stated
Post 1019 on this thread
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 21, 2016, 11:14:23 PM
It does beg the question why people suspect they might have been involved JP
It has nothing to do with amaral in the initial months which blame has been heaped on It was all to do with them. Imo from the get go And maybe their utterly pathetic"advisers"
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 22, 2016, 12:07:34 AM
You best start using IMO then before slagging off Posters on this board and an a Apology would be n order to g unit as you were one who declared maddie was abducted whikst in nother breath sad no one said that lolol
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 22, 2016, 07:29:45 AM
hall continually refers to statements by the Mccanns as "bare faced lies"....that's why I used the phrase...it seems its ok to insult the McCanns but not hall...
what else can you call it when gmcc ....said he did not have any more photo's of maddie ....he was supposed to be helping with enquires ...not hindering them
you insist maddie was abducted .....with nothing to show to prove it and are quite happy to leave it at that ....regardless of what happened to maddie ....and continue daily at preaching maddie was abducted...when at this time ...the crime is unknown.....either way...apart from the Macs liking it there way ...or else....you have seen the damage they do to people ...including maddie
well it was about time someone ....could publicly ....show the alternative .....what ever he got right or wrong ....he has shown not all............ is as it seems ...
well R H .....is right when he says at the end of the film the case is a Cess Pit ....full of corruption .....and we will have to see what he finds when he dives ...in that Cess Pit.... .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 22, 2016, 08:08:52 AM
what else can you call it when gmcc ....said he did not have any more photo's of maddie ....he was supposed to be helping with enquires ...not hindering them
you insist maddie was abducted .....with nothing to show to prove it and are quite happy to leave it at that ....regardless of what happened to maddie ....and continue daily at preaching maddie was abducted...when at this time ...the crime is unknown.....either way...apart from the Macs liking it there way ...or else....you have seen the damage they do to people ...including maddie
well it was about time someone ....could publicly ....show the alternative .....what ever he got right or wrong ....he has shown not all............ is as it seems ...
well R H .....is right when he says at the end of the film the case is a Cess Pit ....full of corruption .....and we will have to see what he finds when he dives ...in that Cess Pit.... .
Gerry said he did not have any more photos of Maddie .....then later one appeared.....did this come from Gerry or one of the other tapas...do you know
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 22, 2016, 08:10:50 AM
My thoughts are that if the McCanns are telling the truth then Maddie was almost certainly abducted...I believe them based on what I have seen and read and it seems SY do too.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 22, 2016, 08:17:20 AM
do you have confirmation of all this...could just be a simple mistake blown out of all proportion....confirmation please
Whatever the circumstances it doesn't explain why it matters in the slightest - unless of course you believe that Madeleine disappeared days before the 3rd and all the nannies agreed to become part of a huge conspiracy to deceive the police. But then you have to come up with reasons WHY they would do that and IMO there is not a single credible reason to explain such insane - not to mention criminal behaviour.
On the other hand if you go through life in a state of paranoia believing there is a conspiracy against you around every corner - then you just invent reasons to suit your own beliefs as you go along IMO.
For example - Amy Tierney's evidence was 'inconvenient' to RH - so he solved that problem by simply dismissing her evidence as fabricated. If he gave a reason WHY she would agree to lie to the police for the McCanns - then I must have missed it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th F
Post by: ferryman on March 22, 2016, 09:49:06 AM
Personal remark about intellgence being ignored, (watch u dont become davel) so.... I agree but tell ferryman the public prosecutor did not declare them innocent as he has stated
Post 1019 on this thread
The prosecutors preferred the term non-involvement (in any crime) to innocence.
Quote
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
Don't know if that's such a vital semantic distinction ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 22, 2016, 10:11:18 AM
As to who removed Madeleine from the apartment, that is unlikely to be determined.
As to the 'last' photo...........................
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 22, 2016, 10:22:33 AM
Whatever the circumstances it doesn't explain why it matters in the slightest - unless of course you believe that Madeleine disappeared days before the 3rd and all the nannies agreed to become part of a huge conspiracy to deceive the police. But then you have to come up with reasons WHY they would do that and IMO there is not a single credible reason to explain such insane - not to mention criminal behaviour.
On the other hand if you go through life in a state of paranoia believing there is a conspiracy against you around every corner - then you just invent reasons to suit your own beliefs as you go along IMO.
For example - Amy Tierney's evidence was 'inconvenient' to RH - so he solved that problem by simply dismissing her evidence as fabricated. If he gave a reason WHY she would agree to lie to the police for the McCanns - then I must have missed it.
There is definitely a problem with Amy's evidence. Unless you can explain how she saw something that no-one else saw;
She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 22, 2016, 11:06:08 AM
There is definitely a problem with Amy's evidence. Unless you can explain how she saw something that no-one else saw;
She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
I just read Amy's statement again, and in my opinion what she said hasn't been interpreted properly. First she says she saw the window open and the shutters raised, then later in her statement when she was wondering if Madeleine could have wandered out, she says that she checked if the window had been open and the shutters raised, which to me says that she didn't actually see them open. What she may have said is that she heard them saying the window and shutters were open, because she later had to check if this was true as probably Gerry had closed the window by the time she arrived.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2016, 05:28:31 PM
I just read Amy's statement again, and in my opinion what she said hasn't been interpreted properly. First she says she saw the window open and the shutters raised, then later in her statement when she was wondering if Madeleine could have wandered out, she says that she checked if the window had been open and the shutters raised, which to me says that she didn't actually see them open. What she may have said is that she heard them saying the window and shutters were open, because she later had to check if this was true as probably Gerry had closed the window by the time she arrived.
Her actual words are;
after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
I read that as saying after (she checked) that the window was open she (next) asked the parents...........
She's describing the order of events.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 22, 2016, 05:33:36 PM
after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
I read that as saying after (she checked) that the window was open she (next) asked the parents...........
She's describing the order of events.
Yes, 'after checking' why would she check if she had seen that they were open?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2016, 06:38:14 PM
There is definitely a problem with Amy's evidence. Unless you can explain how she saw something that no-one else saw;
She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
IMO G - first of all you would have to explain why Amy Tierney would make a decision to deliberately lie to the police for a couple she didn't know - especially in light of the seriousness of what had happened. Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Angelo222 on March 23, 2016, 08:22:25 AM
I find the whole thing very difficult to swallow. Kate finds wafting curtains so turns on the light to find Madeleine gone and she doesn't close the window at least???
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 23, 2016, 08:51:13 AM
IMO G - first of all you would have to explain why Amy Tierney would make a decision to deliberately lie to the police for a couple she didn't know - especially in light of the seriousness of what had happened. Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Let's look at what happened then. If the alarm was raised at 10pm everyone except Dianne W went to the apartment. The first thing Gerry did was close the shutter. At that time Amy was at the creche with her colleagues. If Gerry didn't close the shutter immediately then Dianne and Fiona should have seen it open. They said it was closed and Amy said it was open. Take your pick!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 23, 2016, 09:36:29 AM
I find the whole thing very difficult to swallow. Kate finds wafting curtains so turns on the light to find Madeleine gone and she doesn't close the window at least???
If the cleaner cleaned the window on Wednesday and her fingerprints were found on it the next day then she touched the window. And we know what Amaral thinks as to why being in the location they were found. SB in her statement said that Gerry told her he had closed the window but none of his fingerprints were found.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2016, 09:39:29 AM
I find the whole thing very difficult to swallow. Kate finds wafting curtains so turns on the light to find Madeleine gone and she doesn't close the window at least???
Wafting curtains would be a bit of a mouthful to swallow ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 23, 2016, 09:41:52 AM
Let's look at what happened then. If the alarm was raised at 10pm everyone except Dianne W went to the apartment. The first thing Gerry did was close the shutter. At that time Amy was at the creche with her colleagues. If Gerry didn't close the shutter immediately then Dianne and Fiona should have seen it open. They said it was closed and Amy said it was open. Take your pick!
At least 2 GNR officers said the shutters were partially open after 11.00p.m. - maybe that is what Amy Tierney saw - but because her statement is only a summary and not verbatim - that point wasn't recorded or maybe she wasn't asked to describe the position of the shutters in precise detail. The same goes for the window which she said was partially open - but doesn't say how far it was open. IIRC Kate said the window/shutters were completely open when she found Madeleine missing. But would Amy have known that at the time of her interview? - if not then she is not in any way confirming what K&G said about how they found the shutters/windows - but only what she saw. Why would that be construed as a fabrication? The GNR officers could not remember whether the window was open or not. (from memory).
Can you give a reason why Amy Tierney would lie to the police for a couple of virtual strangers? Until that can be established then poring over her statements in detail is pointless IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 23, 2016, 09:49:42 AM
At least 2 GNR officers said the shutters were partially open after 11.00p.m. - maybe that is what Amy Tierney saw - but because her statement is only a summary and not verbatim - that point wasn't recorded or maybe she wasn't asked to describe the position of the shutters in precise detail. The same goes for the window which she said was partially open - but doesn't say how far it was open. IIRC Kate said the window/shutters were completely open when she found Madeleine missing. But would Amy have known that at the time of her interview? - if not then she is not in any way confirming what K&G said about how they found the shutters/windows - but only what she saw. Why would that be construed as a fabrication? The GNR officers could not remember whether the window was open or not. (from memory).
Can you give a reason why Amy Tierney would lie to the police for a couple of virtual strangers? Until that can be established then poring over her statements in detail is pointless IMO.
"She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open."
The shutter wasn't raised when Dianne first got there and she couldn't raise them. Amy didn't see them raised. The shutter was partially open not the window.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 23, 2016, 09:56:02 AM
The shutter wasn't raised when Dianne first got there and she couldn't raise them. Impossible for Amy to see them raised. The shutter was partially open not the window.
So at least 2 GNR officers were wrong then - when they claimed that the shutters were partially raised?
Can you can come up with a credible reason why Amy Tierney would decide to deliberately lie to the PJ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 23, 2016, 09:58:39 AM
So at least 2 GNR officers were wrong then - when they claimed that the shutters were partially raised?
Can you can come up with a credible reason why Amy Tierney would decide to perjure herself to the PJ?
Did you read what I posted? I clearly stated the shutter was partially open/raised as seen in crime scene photos. Amy said it was raised and the window partially open. Not so!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 23, 2016, 10:19:02 AM
Did you read what I posted? I clearly stated the shutter was partially open as seen in crime scene photos. Amy said it was raised and the window partially open. Not so!
Maybe Amy also saw the shutters were partially raised too - but that wasn't made clear in her summarised statement?
One GNR officer thought the window was closed, one officer couldn't remember whether it was closed or not - and Amy Tierney thought the window was partially (not fully) open. Taking into account the fallibility of memory - I do not regard that as proof that someone must have lied. The crime scene photos were taken much later - so if the window was partially open when she arrived - then it may have been completely closed before the photos were taken.
I ask you again. Can you come up with a credible reason why Amy Tierney would decide to deliberately lie to the PJ over what she remembered?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 23, 2016, 10:27:54 AM
Maybe Amy also saw the shutters were partially raised too - but that wasn't made clear in her summarised statement?
One GNR officer thought the window was closed, one officer couldn't remember whether it was closed or not - and Amy Tierney thought the window was partially (not fully) open. Taking into account the fallibility of memory - I do not regard that as proof that someone must have lied. The crime scene photos were taken much later - so if the window was partially open when she arrived - then it may have been completely closed before the photos were taken.
I ask you again. Can you come up with a credible reason why Amy Tierney would decide to deliberately lie to the PJ over what she remembered?
She probably got confused saying the window was partially open when it was the shutter. Gerry apparently closed the window leaving no evidence. And Kate said she didn't touch it (closed all week!) and left evidence. It's no wonder you wouldn't answer questions.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 23, 2016, 10:41:19 AM
So at least 2 GNR officers were wrong then - when they claimed that the shutters were partially raised?
Can you can come up with a credible reason why Amy Tierney would decide to perjure herself to the PJ?
The GNR Officers, when asked in October 2007, said;
When questioned about the windows in the bedroom, he only remembers that the window in the girl's bedroom was closed with the blind raised up the space of the width of a hand.
When questioned about the bedroom windows, he only remembers that blinds of the window of the girl’s bedroom were not totally closed. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
That fits with the photographs of the window taken on the night in question. Amy just said the blind (shutter) was raised, not partially raised.
Perhaps she did see the blind raised and the window partly open, but the other two women didn't, and they were there before she was according to the statements.
Pointing out discrepancies between statements doesn't equate to accusing people of lying. If anyone did lie, the reason would be known only to themselves. Perjury, by the way, involves lying under oath. Was anyone under oath when giving statements?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 23, 2016, 10:52:38 AM
She probably got confused saying the window was partially open when it was the shutter. Gerry apparently closed the window leaving no evidence. And Kate said she didn't touch it (closed all week!) and left evidence. It's no wonder you wouldn't answer questions.
What do you mean .. ' it's no wonder you wouldn't answer questions''? I have answered all of your posts to me.
However I notice you have studiously ignored my question to you - as to why Amy Tierney would lie to the police, and judging by your post above - you are now attempting to move the goalposts as I see no connection between what Kate said about touching the window - and Amy Tierneys recollection of how she found the shutters/windows when she entered 5A.
IIRC RH's video claims that Amy Tierney lied through her teeth for the McCanns. I'm still waiting for your considered opinion (or anyone else's) as to WHY she would do that.
(must go out now)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 23, 2016, 10:58:40 AM
What do you mean .. ' it's no wonder you wouldn't answer questions''? I have answered all of your posts to me.
However I notice you have studiously ignored my question to you - as to why Amy Tierney would lie to the police, and judging by your post above - you are now attempting to move the goalposts as I see no connection between what Kate said about touching the window - and Amy Tierneys recollection of how she found the shutters/windows when she entered 5A.
IIRC RH's video claims that Amy Tierney lied through her teeth for the McCanns. I'm still waiting for your considered opinion (or anyone else's) as to WHY she would do that.
(must go out now)
Amy probably got confused saying the window was partially open when it was the shutter. I wouldn't answer questions if I was Kate as well 8)--))
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2016, 11:18:28 AM
This thread was scotched (as a 'debate') as early as the 5th post of the first page.
Yet, 75 pages later ....
An absolute disgrace and a stain on this board.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2016, 11:42:11 AM
If the cleaner cleaned the window on Wednesday and her fingerprints were found on it the next day then she touched the window. And we know what Amaral thinks as to why being in the location they were found. SB in her statement said that Gerry told her he had closed the window but none of his fingerprints were found.
Can you honestly believe the cleaner cleaned the windows? They only have a certain time to clean these apartments and I don't think cleaning windows would be included. Maybe the windows would be cleaned when the holiday makers left and new ones were arriving but I can't see the windows being cleaned in between that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 23, 2016, 05:19:52 PM
IMO G - first of all you would have to explain why Amy Tierney would make a decision to deliberately lie to the police for a couple she didn't know - especially in light of the seriousness of what had happened. Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
I agree Benice, it's all total nonsense to think that all the nannies interviewed would lie, why for goodness sake? and that is a question they cannot answer.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 23, 2016, 05:53:03 PM
Can you honestly believe the cleaner cleaned the windows? They only have a certain time to clean these apartments and I don't think cleaning windows would be included. Maybe the windows would be cleaned when the holiday makers left and new ones were arriving but I can't see the windows being cleaned in between that.
She had 6 occupied apartments when Madeleine disappeared. She makes the last day of cleaning 5A the Wednesday, and from memory, Kate says 5A was also cleaned on the Monday.
She had help on the turn-round day of Sat 28 Apr. That would have been required to do a proper clean whether it was old guests out in the morning and new guests in the same day, or whether it was simpler.
Her schedule seems to have required the cleaning of 3 apartments per day. Possibly topped up by preparing some of her other apartments in advance.
It doesn't sound like she was overloaded, though she does say that on the Thu she was too busy to take the rubbish out.
It just seems odd to me to clean windows in the middle of a 1 week stay.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 23, 2016, 06:05:08 PM
I agree Benice, it's all total nonsense to think that all the nannies interviewed would lie, why for goodness sake? and that is a question they cannot answer.
Can you therefore explain this? The Mini's were housed in the next room to the Baby creche. There were 14 MW children within in the Mini age group. On 3rd May Cat Baker took 6 of them to the beach to sail. The other Mini nanny didn't notice they'd gone. Both nannys said they went to the beach on Wednesday afternoon, but according to the activities sheet that didn't happen for MBM's group.
Is it perhaps 'the fallibility of memory' 'mistranslation of the files' or something else?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 23, 2016, 07:28:47 PM
Can you therefore explain this? The Mini's were housed in the next room to the Baby creche. There were 14 MW children within in the Mini age group. On 3rd May Cat Baker took 6 of them to the beach to sail. The other Mini nanny didn't notice they'd gone. Both nannys said they went to the beach on Wednesday afternoon, but according to the activities sheet that didn't happen for MBM's group.
Is it perhaps 'the fallibility of memory' 'mistranslation of the files' or something else?
I don't know where you have got the 'the other Mini nanny didn't notice they'd gone' as when I read the statement she was referring to Madeleine and not the fact that she didn't notice the group had gone. This nanny was concentrating on her own group in her care so why would she be concentrating on who was going sailing?
Could you show me where it says both nannies said they went to the beach on Wednesday afternoon, as when I read Catriona Baker's statement she said they went to the beach on three occasions but apart from sailing trip couldn't remember what days the other two were on.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 23, 2016, 08:22:11 PM
I don't know where you have got the 'the other Mini nanny didn't notice they'd gone' as when I read the statement she was referring to Madeleine and not the fact that she didn't notice the group had gone. This nanny was concentrating on her own group in her care so why would she be concentrating on who was going sailing?
Could you show me where it says both nannies said they went to the beach on Wednesday afternoon, as when I read Catriona Baker's statement she said they went to the beach on three occasions but apart from sailing trip couldn't remember what days the other two were on.
Cat made three statements not just her rog one (by which time she would have forgotten).
We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA-B.htm . She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew's (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.
When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
I don't care how hard you concentrate you'd notice six children being got ready and going, not to mention the gap in the room. We don't know how many children Emma had that day, but if there's 14 being reduced to 8, you'd notice imo.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2016, 09:09:32 PM
Cat Baker made two statements; her rogatory statement and one to the PJ.
The third statement you quote is Emma Wilding ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 23, 2016, 09:50:34 PM
It certainlyy is as you said this thread shouldnt exist
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 23, 2016, 11:01:20 PM
MOD Things look to be getting a little heated. Please tone it down a bit, otherwise one of my (elders or) betters will be taking people to one side to have a little word in their ear.
Please agree to disagree nicely.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 23, 2016, 11:05:42 PM
MOD Things look to be getting a little heated. Please tone it down a bit, otherwise one of my (elders or) betters will be taking people to one side to have a little word in their ear.
Please agree to disagree nicely.
Im cool, I have posted just facts present and historical, was not abusive in any way shape or form
Ferryman thinks you should delete this thread as it is a stain but complains when his libel is moderated...its ok I shall put my slippers on and go eat honey and yoghurt, bye
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 23, 2016, 11:11:07 PM
If the thread had been pulled in response to my objection, you may have a point.
It wasn't and you don't.
Still, the continued denigration of a couple hovering between hope and grief for their (missing) daughter is deplorable ...
Yes it would be if everyone knew she was truly missing and nothing else, even the PP said they cant say what crime happened, thats me for tonight
---- But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann - apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment - or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship.
If Hall's theories are rubbish then let people decide for themselves
I see that this thread has had 15,700-plus views so far.
Perhaps more to the point, there have been 41 separate uploads on YouTube of part or all of Hall's first Madeleine film, with over 840,000 views there so far.
Similarly, his second film, 'The Phantoms', has had 31 separate uploads in part or in toto, with 110,000 views in less than a year.
His latest film was only uploaded to YouTube for the first time on 19 February and already there have been 11 uploads netting over 44,000 views in just over a month.
I make that 83 separate uploads of all or part of his films, viewed over 994,000 times.
Currently they attract a combined total of around 2,400 new views every day, or about 1 new view every 35 seconds.
And that excludes: a) those who have viewed these films on his website - tens of thousands more views b) those who viewed them on blip.tv - tens of thousands more views c) those who have viewed several other YouTube upload of his 'Madeleine talks' on his tours - well over 100,000 more views there, plus d) those who bought his DVDs and have shown them to family and friends.
For those statistical views alone, Hall's films surely deserve discussion?
And to what extent has the content been seriously challenged during the 75 pages this thread has been going?
Only three significant challenges have been made so far AFAIK.
These were as follows:
1) He was allegedly wrong to deny that there was a 'high tea' at the Tapas restaurant every day at around 5pm
2) He was allegedly wrong to draw the inference he did from mass of contradictions about the alleged presence of Madeleine at the alleged high tea on the Thursday, and
2) He was alleged wrong to rely too much on the weather charts because the Last Photo could have been taken during a brief sunny spell.
On none of these issues has he been 'holed below the water line, so to speak, while and on the weather issue, the case made against him looks weak.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 24, 2016, 12:55:55 AM
I see that this thread has had 15,700-plus views so far.
Perhaps more to the point, there have been 41 separate uploads on YouTube of part or all of Hall's first Madeleine film, with over 840,000 views there so far.
Similarly, his second film, 'The Phantoms', has had 31 separate uploads in part or in toto, with 110,000 views in less than a year.
His latest film was only uploaded to YouTube for the first time on 19 February and already there have been 11 uploads netting over 44,000 views in just over a month.
I make that 83 separate uploads of all or part of his films, viewed over 994,000 times.
Currently they attract a combined total of around 2,400 new views every day, or about 1 new view every 35 seconds.
And that excludes: a) those who have viewed these films on his website - tens of thousands more views b) those who viewed them on blip.tv - tens of thousands more views c) those who have viewed several other YouTube upload of his 'Madeleine talks' on his tours - well over 100,000 more views there, plus d) those who bought his DVDs and have shown them to family and friends.
For those statistical views alone, Hall's films surely deserve discussion?
And to what extent has the content been seriously challenged during the 75 pages this thread has been going?
Only three significant challenges have been made so far AFAIK.
These were as follows:
1) He was allegedly wrong to deny that there was a 'high tea' at the Tapas restaurant every day at around 5pm
2) He was allegedly wrong to draw the inference he did from mass of contradictions about the alleged presence of Madeleine at the alleged high tea on the Thursday, and
2) He was alleged wrong to rely too much on the weather charts because the Last Photo could have been taken during a brief sunny spell.
On none of these issues has he been 'holed below the water line, so to speak, while and on the weather issue, the case made against him looks weak.
His assertion that Madeleine 'vanished' sometime on the Sunday has been blown out of the water by the members and exposed for the libellous nonsense it is.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 24, 2016, 01:01:05 AM
I see that this thread has had 15,700-plus views so far.
Perhaps more to the point, there have been 41 separate uploads on YouTube of part or all of Hall's first Madeleine film, with over 840,000 views there so far.
Similarly, his second film, 'The Phantoms', has had 31 separate uploads in part or in toto, with 110,000 views in less than a year.
His latest film was only uploaded to YouTube for the first time on 19 February and already there have been 11 uploads netting over 44,000 views in just over a month.
I make that 83 separate uploads of all or part of his films, viewed over 994,000 times.
Currently they attract a combined total of around 2,400 new views every day, or about 1 new view every 35 seconds.
And that excludes: a) those who have viewed these films on his website - tens of thousands more views b) those who viewed them on blip.tv - tens of thousands more views c) those who have viewed several other YouTube upload of his 'Madeleine talks' on his tours - well over 100,000 more views there, plus d) those who bought his DVDs and have shown them to family and friends.
For those statistical views alone, Hall's films surely deserve discussion?
And to what extent has the content been seriously challenged during the 75 pages this thread has been going?
Only three significant challenges have been made so far AFAIK.
These were as follows:
1) He was allegedly wrong to deny that there was a 'high tea' at the Tapas restaurant every day at around 5pm
2) He was allegedly wrong to draw the inference he did from mass of contradictions about the alleged presence of Madeleine at the alleged high tea on the Thursday, and
2) He was alleged wrong to rely too much on the weather charts because the Last Photo could have been taken during a brief sunny spell.
On none of these issues has he been 'holed below the water line, so to speak, while and on the weather issue, the case made against him looks weak.
He's got lots of views therefore meriting the discussion of his case, IMO.
Would you like to debate point 1, 2 or 3 of the challenges? Or something else? Take your pick - I'm happy to go with your choice. Could be interesting.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 24, 2016, 07:12:08 AM
I see that this thread has had 15,700-plus views so far.
Perhaps more to the point, there have been 41 separate uploads on YouTube of part or all of Hall's first Madeleine film, with over 840,000 views there so far.
Similarly, his second film, 'The Phantoms', has had 31 separate uploads in part or in toto, with 110,000 views in less than a year.
His latest film was only uploaded to YouTube for the first time on 19 February and already there have been 11 uploads netting over 44,000 views in just over a month.
I make that 83 separate uploads of all or part of his films, viewed over 994,000 times.
Currently they attract a combined total of around 2,400 new views every day, or about 1 new view every 35 seconds.
And that excludes: a) those who have viewed these films on his website - tens of thousands more views b) those who viewed them on blip.tv - tens of thousands more views c) those who have viewed several other YouTube upload of his 'Madeleine talks' on his tours - well over 100,000 more views there, plus d) those who bought his DVDs and have shown them to family and friends.
For those statistical views alone, Hall's films surely deserve discussion?
And to what extent has the content been seriously challenged during the 75 pages this thread has been going?
Only three significant challenges have been made so far AFAIK.
These were as follows:
1) He was allegedly wrong to deny that there was a 'high tea' at the Tapas restaurant every day at around 5pm
2) He was allegedly wrong to draw the inference he did from mass of contradictions about the alleged presence of Madeleine at the alleged high tea on the Thursday, and
2) He was alleged wrong to rely too much on the weather charts because the Last Photo could have been taken during a brief sunny spell.
On none of these issues has he been 'holed below the water line, so to speak, while and on the weather issue, the case made against him looks weak.
With regard to the statistics you quote may I ask:-
Does a 'view' lasting only a few minutes' count as 'a view' ? If so then surely the statistics you quote cannot be purported as being representative of the number of people who have actually watched his videos in their entirety. What if a person 'views' the same video in it's entirety by making several repeat visits to it - does every new visit count as another 'view' ?
Could you (or anyone else) enlighten me please?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 24, 2016, 08:10:17 AM
The GNR Officers, when asked in October 2007, said;
When questioned about the windows in the bedroom, he only remembers that the window in the girl's bedroom was closed with the blind raised up the space of the width of a hand.
When questioned about the bedroom windows, he only remembers that blinds of the window of the girl’s bedroom were not totally closed. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
That fits with the photographs of the window taken on the night in question. Amy just said the blind (shutter) was raised, not partially raised.
Perhaps she did see the blind raised and the window partly open, but the other two women didn't, and they were there before she was according to the statements.
Pointing out discrepancies between statements doesn't equate to accusing people of lying. If anyone did lie, the reason would be known only to themselves. Perjury, by the way, involves lying under oath. Was anyone under oath when giving statements?
IMO claiming that ''if anyone did lie the reason would be known only to themselves'' - is a very weak argument G.
If Amy Tierney and the nannies conspired with the MCanns to deliberately lie to the police - then there has to be a very good reason for such a dangerous decision on their part. IIRC RH didn't come up with a reason in his video - and so far no-one here has been able to. That's because the whole idea is bonkers IMO.
p.s. I take your point re 'perjury' and have edited my post accordingly.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 24, 2016, 08:40:27 AM
Cat made three statements not just her rog one (by which time she would have forgotten).
We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA-B.htm . She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew's (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.
When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
I don't care how hard you concentrate you'd notice six children being got ready and going, not to mention the gap in the room. We don't know how many children Emma had that day, but if there's 14 being reduced to 8, you'd notice imo.
Emma Wilding is saying that her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach on Wednesday afternoon, but she doesn't know if Madeleine was in the group. In other words she can't say for definite if Madeleine was in the other group that Catriona Baker was in charge of, more than likely because she was more concerned about her own group.
If Madeleine's group didn't have going to the beach down on their activity sheet, maybe they didn't stick rigidly to the sheet, the weather for instance would change things.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 24, 2016, 08:44:05 AM
His assertion that Madeleine 'vanished' sometime on the Sunday has been blown out of the water by the members and exposed for the libellous nonsense it is.
Yes, after he has sold videos and done lectures, that's great isn't it. Maybe he should have got his facts right before venturing out and peddling his nonsense.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 24, 2016, 09:06:43 AM
And to what extent has the content been seriously challenged during the 75 pages this thread has been going?
Only three significant challenges have been made so far AFAIK.
These were as follows:
1) He was allegedly wrong to deny that there was a 'high tea' at the Tapas restaurant every day at around 5pm
2) He was allegedly wrong to draw the inference he did from mass of contradictions about the alleged presence of Madeleine at the alleged high tea on the Thursday, and
2) He was alleged wrong to rely too much on the weather charts because the Last Photo could have been taken during a brief sunny spell.
On none of these issues has he been 'holed below the water line, so to speak, while and on the weather issue, the case made against him looks weak.
As 'the dogs' are regarded by many sceptics to be a major factor in this case - I'm surprised you have made no mention of the 'significant challenge' to RH's following claim a - which according to Martin Grime and Mark Harrison is not the case - because it is not a fact that when a dog alerts - it proves a human corpse must have been present at some time at that place.
Quote from RH
The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns’ apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. Unquote
IMO Either RH was misinformed by others or he misunderstood the evidence in the files himself. Either way his statement is false and completely misleading - and has been shown up to be just that on this forum.
In fact on that particular subject I would say not just ''holed below the water line''- but sunk without trace.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 10:34:06 AM
This thread was scotched (as a 'debate') as early as the 5th post of the first page.
Yet, 75 pages later ....
An absolute disgrace and a stain on this board.
how dare you mock my thread 8**8:/:
the thing that is a disgrace here is your obvious ...agenda ...
the parents have to be be believed ....at any price
well its not as simple as that and if you feel it is..... tough ..
you should really get over yourself ..you care more for mccs...not what happened to maddie ...that is a disgrace because you do not know maddie was abducted ...or care it seems
nothing is set in stone in this case .....
Rh ...is not an abduction believer....and is putting his case forward ....and the reasons why ...he covers a great deal of things ...to show ...the reasons how the abduction one way or another ...is not the case....
everyone will not agree with his findings ....but you cannot knock him for trying because he is in a position to do some thing and has....he has made several claims over the years .....and no one has challenged him ..or sued him ...to prove him wrong ...
maybe things for some does not add up ..in what R H puts across..but nothing in this case does ....
least of all the abduction.............
as for the mccs ....they sowed the seed in the first place ....they have to live with that choice
maddie had no choice .....and at this time ...there is no proof she was abducted ....so what did happen to her...
you would think ....that would be the thing everyone wanted to know ...the truth...as yet no one knows ..what the truth is ...
up until now .....the majority ...has been censord/covered up of what we were told in UK ....thank god for R H ...and many others ....who have not give up on what happened to Maddie....the real victim in all of this
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 10:40:13 AM
His assertion that Madeleine 'vanished' sometime on the Sunday has been blown out of the water by the members and exposed for the libellous nonsense it is.
no ...nothing has been exposed as false nonsense ...that is a false statement to make ....
and if you think ...he is libellouse ....up to date nothing has been done about it ....so that is misleading also
as you canot prove he is...he has not been challenged on anything ....has he ....apart from those ...who don't want to see the woods for the trees....on this forum
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 24, 2016, 10:45:50 AM
no ...nothing has been exposed as false nonsense ...that is a false statement to make ....
and if you think ...he is libellouse ....up to date nothing has been done about it ....so that is misleading also
as you canot prove he is...he has not been challenged on anything ....has he ....apart from those ...who don't want to see the woods for the trees....on this forum
Have you ever wondered that the reason 'nothing has been done' about RH's videos is because there is a Police Investigation still in progress and the McCann's don't want any distraction from that?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 24, 2016, 10:50:06 AM
Have you ever wondered that the reason 'nothing has been done' about RH's videos is because there is a Police Investigation still in progress and the McCann's don't want any distraction from that?
That's hardly an excuse.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 24, 2016, 10:55:24 AM
Just because nothing is done about something doesn't mean it is true. Haven't we been here before, prior to a certain Court Case?
This is a very dodgy argument.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Erngath on March 24, 2016, 10:58:05 AM
His views, website, videos, talks, debates are all so bizarre and as far as the GBP are concerned he is totally unknown. He is unimportant and the fact that the abduction is being investigated by both police forces will be their main focus, not some unbeknown conspiracy theorist.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 24, 2016, 11:37:48 AM
the thing that is a disgrace here is your obvious ...agenda ...
the parents have to be be believed ....at any price
well its not as simple as that and if you feel it is..... tough ..
you should really get over yourself ..you care more for mccs...not what happened to maddie ...that is a disgrace because you do not know maddie was abducted ...or care it seems
nothing is set in stone in this case .....
Rh ...is not an abduction believer....and is putting his case forward ....and the reasons why ...he covers a great deal of things ...to show ...the reasons how the abduction one way or another ...is not the case....
everyone will not agree with his findings ....but you cannot knock him for trying because he is in a position to do some thing and has....he has made several claims over the years .....and no one has challenged him ..or sued him ...to prove him wrong ...
maybe things for some does not add up ..in what R H puts across..but nothing in this case does ....
least of all the abduction.............
as for the mccs ....they sowed the seed in the first place ....they have to live with that choice
maddie had no choice .....and at this time ...there is no proof she was abducted ....so what did happen to her...
you would think ....that would be the thing everyone wanted to know ...the truth...as yet no one knows ..what the truth is ...
up until now .....the majority ...has been censord/covered up of what we were told in UK ....thank god for R H ...and many others ....who have not give up on what happened to Maddie....the real victim in all of this
You say, "the parents have to be be believed ....at any price"
Which is actually very short of the mark. The evidence given by the many to the police is the all important factor. That there has been a nine year campaign to dispute it flies in the face of common sense.
I find it risible that Richard Hall has subliminally suggested that the Policia Judicairia were so incompetent that they had failed to ascertain that Madeleine had been alive and well in the period between her arrival in Luz and when her mother found her missing from her bed.
It is such an elementary diligence for law enforcement that I find it breathtaking that he disputes it as he has.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 11:46:37 AM
Have you ever wondered that the reason 'nothing has been done' about RH's videos is because there is a Police Investigation still in progress and the McCann's don't want any distraction from that?
oh ...surly you can think up a better excuse than that [it hasn't bothered them other times]...... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 11:48:04 AM
His views, website, videos, talks, debates are all so bizarre and as far as the GBP are concerned he is totally unknown. He is unimportant and the fact that the abduction is being investigated by both police forces will be their main focus, not some unbeknown conspiracy theorist.
does it matter ...R H ....is unknown ...we know what we know ...don't we....
abduction not proved ...one way or another...as yet
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 11:52:31 AM
You say, "the parents have to be be believed ....at any price"
Which is actually very short of the mark. The evidence given by the many to the police is the all important factor. That there has been a nine year campaign to dispute it flies in the face of common sense.
I find it risible that Richard Hall has subliminally suggested that the Policia Judicairia were so incompetent that they had failed to ascertain that Madeleine had been alive and well in the period between her arrival in Luz and when her mother found her missing from her bed.
It is such an elementary diligence for law enforcement that I find it breathtaking that he disputes it as he has.
whatever.....the excuses flow....but ....it was the mccs ...who are the incompetent ones....in the first place
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 24, 2016, 11:56:23 AM
His assertion that Madeleine 'vanished' sometime on the Sunday has been blown out of the water by the members and exposed for the libellous nonsense it is.
Interestingly by "both sides" of the debate as it were.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 12:09:35 PM
In your opinion. But if you think everyone who doesn't sue is guilty you really don't understand the law.
yes but we are talking about the mccs ...here ....arn't we ....you don't have to understand the law with them .....they think they are above it anyway...any one who says anything against them ....they sue ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 24, 2016, 12:18:51 PM
yes but we are talking about the mccs ...here ....arn't we ....you don't have to understand the law with them .....they think they are above it anyway...any one who says anything against them ....they sue ...
Not true. Many, many people have libelled them over the years without a scrap of proof. Are we supposed to believe it's all true?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 12:25:27 PM
Not true. Many, many people have libelled them over the years without a scrap of proof. Are we supposed to believe it's all true?
not at all ....you believe what you like ....its about ...there not being a scrap of proof ....there was an abduction...
surly you must see that .....and because of that ....some of us are concerned if there wasn't an abduction ...what the hell happened to maddie ...why was she robbed of her innocent life...she was three year old fgs ....a child ...
very badly let down by the ones who should have protected her ...and kept her safe ...her right of that .was denied her....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 24, 2016, 12:32:15 PM
not at all ....you believe what you like ....its about ...there not being a scrap of proof ....there was an abduction...
surly you must see that .....and because of that ....some of us are concerned if there wasn't an abduction ...what the hell happened to maddie ...why was she robbed of her innocent life...she was three year old fgs ....a child ...
very badly let down by the ones who should have protected her ...and kept her safe ...her right of that .was denied her....
There is no proof that Madeleine is dead. And until I see some proof I shall go on hoping.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 24, 2016, 12:33:30 PM
not at all ....you believe what you like ....its about ...there not being a scrap of proof ....there was an abduction...
surly you must see that .....and because of that ....some of us are concerned if there wasn't an abduction ...what the hell happened to maddie ...why was she robbed of her innocent life...she was three year old fgs ....a child ...
very badly let down by the ones who should have protected her ...and kept her safe ...her right of that .was denied her....
So instead you say she is dead.
If Sara Payne's son hadn't seen the white van, there wouldn't have been any evidence Sarah Payne had been abducted, apart from the fact that she was missing and there was no body. The same with Ben Needham.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 24, 2016, 12:36:44 PM
Interestingly by "both sides" of the debate as it were.
I'm not surprised by it, though. With the majority of the members familiar with the files it seems to be a conspiracy too far to assume that all the witnesses to Madeleine's presence have some ulterior motive for making a statement to the police verifying that fact; it just doesn't work for them.
Also we "both sides" do sometimes agree on things, it may be just that we shout louder when we disagree.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 01:47:45 PM
I'm not surprised by it, though. With the majority of the members familiar with the files it seems to be a conspiracy too far to assume that all the witnesses to Madeleine's presence have some ulterior motive for making a statement to the police verifying that fact; it just doesn't work for them.
Also we "both sides" do sometimes agree on things, it may be just that we shout louder when we disagree.
no one is saying....they have ulterior motives ....
just they could have assumed things that wasn't there....very easily done ...
statements are not always concrete evidence of something ....are they...doesn't always mean they have to be right ...only there recollection of things .....they think they saw ...or what actually happened...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 24, 2016, 01:50:27 PM
I'm not surprised by it, though. With the majority of the members familiar with the files it seems to be a conspiracy too far to assume that all the witnesses to Madeleine's presence have some ulterior motive for making a statement to the police verifying that fact; it just doesn't work for them.
Also we "both sides" do sometimes agree on things, it may be just that we shout louder when we disagree.
As I have posted to the point of tedium: He blew it about half way through the first video with his comment to the effect that the cops were so dim they believed the last independent sighting was 17:30 on 3rd May 2007 then he went off on one about the high tea and photo conspiracies.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 24, 2016, 01:56:40 PM
If Sara Payne's son hadn't seen the white van, there wouldn't have been any evidence Sarah Payne had been abducted, apart from the fact that she was missing and there was no body. The same with Ben Needham.
It is very seldom that the actual abduction of a child (or an adult) is witnessed as in Sarah Payne's case ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sarah_Payne ... or in the case of Robert Black's intended victim in the Scottish Borders, which led to his apprehension ... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/robert-black-one-wrong-turn-led-to-child-killer-being-caught-redhanded-34358943.html ... or when April Jones was seen getting into a vehicle ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22403116
Quite often the only 'proof' of abduction is that the child is missing.
The most extraordinary thing about Madeleine McCann's case may be that people like Richard Hall appear to be making a very good living from her disappearance without a blush. All while trying to convince his target audience that she is dead. Why would anyone do that?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 24, 2016, 02:18:37 PM
no one is saying....they have ulterior motives ....
just they could have assumed things that wasn't there....very easily done ...
statements are not always concrete evidence of something ....are they...doesn't always mean they have to be right ...only there recollection of things .....they think they saw ...or what actually happened...
He asserts that Madeleine "vanished" on the Sunday or the Monday after her arrival. How is it possible to deny her physical presence as confirmed by witnesses?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2016, 02:40:29 PM
He asserts that Madeleine "vanished" on the Sunday or the Monday after her arrival. How is it possible to deny her physical presence as confirmed by witnesses?
Even those who knew her well got it wrong. Rachael said the last time she saw her was playing mini tennis on Thursday.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 24, 2016, 03:12:25 PM
If Sara Payne's son hadn't seen the white van, there wouldn't have been any evidence Sarah Payne had been abducted, apart from the fact that she was missing and there was no body. The same with Ben Needham.
how ever you look at it ...maddie was robbed of a innocent life .......unless you think it is ok to be with peodos ...as the mccans said she had been abducted by .....as for me ...say she is dead ...as you put it .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 24, 2016, 04:51:56 PM
how ever you look at it ...maddie was robbed of a innocent life .......unless you think it is ok to be with peodos ...as the mccans said she had been abducted by .....as for me ...say she is dead ...as you put it .
That is probably the best way to look at it. The trouble is expressing that view usually starts a flame war about empathy and hope and such.
Food for thought:
So was it a good thing that Pandora trapped hope in her box/jar after the evils escaped ? Or is hope just the worst of the evils as when it runs out all that is left is despair ?
Friedrich Nietzsche: "Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of men."
I know where my vote goes.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 25, 2016, 03:47:43 PM
With regard to the statistics you quote may I ask:-
Does a 'view' lasting only a few minutes count as 'a view' ?
If so then surely the statistics you quote cannot be purported as being representative of the number of people who have actually watched his videos in their entirety. What if a person 'views' the same video in its entirety by making several repeat visits to it - does every new visit count as another 'view' ?
Could you (or anyone else) enlighten me please?
Yes.
Both your assumptions are perfectly correct.
A 'view' could be anything from say half a minute and then decoding not to bother, to watching the whole of one of Hall's 4-hour Madeleine's films at one sitting.
You asked: "What if a person 'views' the same video in its entirety by making several repeat visits to it - does every new visit count as another 'view'?"
ANSWER: Yes, I am almost certain that it does count as another view each time.
But I've nowhere claimed that the stats were of viewings of the whole film.
It's just that they are significant viewing figures, even allowing for the fact that some 'views' may be quite short.
Given that not that many people are interested in the minutiae of the Madeleine McCann case, to have well over a million views (including those viewed elsewhere than YouTube, that is) in 18 months, with another 2,400 or more 'clocking on' every single day to view more of his films, is enough to raise eyebrows in some quarters.
It is certainly what motivated independent journalist Jenny Kleeman to travel up to Nottingham and try to film Hall at one of his meetings last year
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2016, 05:33:32 PM
A 'view' could be anything from say half a minute and then decoding not to bother, to watching the whole of one of Hall's 4-hour Madeleine's films at one sitting.
You asked: "What if a person 'views' the same video in its entirety by making several repeat visits to it - does every new visit count as another 'view'?"
ANSWER: Yes, I am almost certain that it does count as another view each time.
But I've nowhere claimed that the stats were of viewings of the whole film.
It's just that they are significant viewing figures, even allowing for the fact that some 'views' may be quite short.
Given that not that many people are interested in the minutiae of the Madeleine McCann case, to have well over a million views (including those viewed elsewhere than YouTube, that is) in 18 months, with another 2,400 or more 'clocking on' every single day to view more of his films, is enough to raise eyebrows in some quarters.
It is certainly what motivated independent journalist Jenny Kleeman to travel up to Nottingham and try to film Hall at one of his meetings last year
how do you know there are another 2400 clocking on every single day...you have stated it as fact...this is more likely the same people clocking on again imo....when Maddie died part 1 has 11000 views...again that is not 11000 individual people watching it,,,it has 74 likes and about 5 comments in a month,,,that seems to be a more accurate indication of the numbers watching it
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 25, 2016, 06:24:04 PM
How do you know there are another 2400 clocking on every single day...you have stated it as fact...this is more likely the same people clocking on again imo...
Just to make it clear once again, I can only count the number of 'views'.
Every time any one person clicks on a link to a video, Google automatically counts another 'view'.
To take a specific example, this recent upload of 'When Madeleine Died?': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oo2-Sj7to
...had had 13,774 views to 11.40pm on Wednesday (23rd March).
Just now when I checked, it had had 14,319 views.
So another 545 views in less than 2 days.
Of course, no-one can say exactly how many are returning viewers, but I suspect not that many.
And the 545 who viewed the link above on YouTube in the last two days are those who viewed just ONE of at least EIGHTY-THREE separate uploads of all or part of Hall's three films, during the same period.
This one upload of Hall's first Madeleine film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIjPcvmVzUo
...has had well over a quarter of a million views to date...
...a 'view' rate alone of over 440 a day ever since it was first uploaded 19 months ago
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2016, 06:31:10 PM
Just to make it clear once again, I can only count the number of 'views'.
Every time any one person clicks on a link to a video, Google automatically counts another 'view'.
To take a specific example, this recent upload of 'When Madeleine Died?': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oo2-Sj7to
...had had 13,774 views to 11.40pm on Wednesday (23rd March).
Just now when I checked, it had had 14,319 views.
So another 545 views in less than 2 days.
Of course, no-one can say exactly how many are returning viewers, but I suspect not that many.
And the 545 who viewed the link above on YouTube in the last two days are those who viewed just ONE of at least EIGHTY-THREE separate uploads of all or part of Hall's three films, during the same period.
This one upload of Hall's first Madeleine film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIjPcvmVzUo
...has had well over a quarter of a million views to date...
...a 'view' rate alone of over 440 a day ever since it was first uploaded 19 months ago
#so you admit that your claim of"another 2400 clocking on each day"has no basis in fact...but you have claimed it as a fact.../the video with 250,000 views has a mere 1000 likes and very few commnets..
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 25, 2016, 06:39:11 PM
So anyone could just click on these videos several times a day for five minutes and they would all count. Well well, there's a turn up.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 25, 2016, 06:46:40 PM
So anyone could just click on these videos several times a day for five minutes and they would all count. Well well, there's a turn up.
It comes as no surprise to me that one can. I am astonished that anyone would want to, apart a bunch of adolescents having an adolescent laugh. I attribute that reason to both sides of the argument. I feel uncomfortable with any other reason.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 26, 2016, 12:47:05 PM
A 'view' could be anything from say half a minute and then decoding not to bother, to watching the whole of one of Hall's 4-hour Madeleine's films at one sitting.
You asked: "What if a person 'views' the same video in its entirety by making several repeat visits to it - does every new visit count as another 'view'?"
ANSWER: Yes, I am almost certain that it does count as another view each time.
But I've nowhere claimed that the stats were of viewings of the whole film.
It's just that they are significant viewing figures, even allowing for the fact that some 'views' may be quite short.
Given that not that many people are interested in the minutiae of the Madeleine McCann case, to have well over a million views (including those viewed elsewhere than YouTube, that is) in 18 months, with another 2,400 or more 'clocking on' every single day to view more of his films, is enough to raise eyebrows in some quarters.
It is certainly what motivated independent journalist Jenny Kleeman to travel up to Nottingham and try to film Hall at one of his meetings last year
Thankyou for that info.
So in reality - you can have no idea from your statistics of how many people have actually watched the McCann videos in their entirety, just as you can have no idea what percentage of people who (having watched part or all of them) - came away thinking .... 'Gosh I believe every word RH says' .....- as opposed to those thinking ...... 'Gosh that's the biggest load of conspiratorial tosh I have ever heard?.....
Neither can you have any idea of the number of people who have repeatedly clicked on the videos and insodoing increased the total no. of 'hits' by 1 - each time they did that. Therefore, while that total is an accurate record of the overall no. of 'hits' made, it is certainly not an accurate record of the no. of people who have viewed the McCann vids..
With respect Blonk - if your purpose was to plug Richard Hall and his McCann videos by impressing folk with 'significant viewing figures' - then in the absence of any statistics defining and differentiating between the above alternative scenarios - the stats you quote have virtually no value at all imo - because they are devoid of any of the information required in order to make a judgement on the impact - or lack of it - which RH's videos actually makes on the McCann case.
p.s. Is this Richard Hall the same RH who described independent journalist Jenny Kleeman as a puppet?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2016, 01:07:47 PM
So in reality - you can have no idea from your statistics of how many people have actually watched the McCann videos in their entirety, just as you can have no idea what percentage of people who (having watched part or all of them) - came away thinking .... 'Gosh I believe every word RH says' .....- as opposed to those thinking ...... 'Gosh that's the biggest load of conspiratorial tosh I have ever heard?.....
Neither can you have any idea of the number of people who have repeatedly clicked on the videos and insodoing increased the total no. of 'hits' by 1 - each time they did that. Therefore, while that total is an accurate record of the overall no. of 'hits' made, it is certainly not an accurate record of the no. of people who have viewed the McCann vids..
With respect Blonk - if your purpose was to plug Richard Hall and his McCann videos by impressing folk with 'significant viewing figures' - then in the absence of any statistics defining and differentiating between the above alternative scenarios - the stats you quote have virtually no value at all imo - because they are devoid of any the information required in order to make a judgement on the impact - or lack of it - which RH's videos actually make on the McCann case.
p.s. Is this Richard Hall the same RH who described independent journalist Jenny Kleeman as a puppet?
Some of us went back for another look because we could hardly believe the utter tosh the first time.
But credit to Blonk for admitting this.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 26, 2016, 10:57:50 PM
So in reality - you can have no idea from your statistics of how many people have actually watched the McCann videos in their entirety, just as you can have no idea what percentage of people who (having watched part or all of them) - came away thinking .... 'Gosh I believe every word RH says' .....- as opposed to those thinking ...... 'Gosh that's the biggest load of conspiratorial tosh I have ever heard?.....
Neither can you have any idea of the number of people who have repeatedly clicked on the videos and insodoing increased the total no. of 'hits' by 1 - each time they did that. Therefore, while that total is an accurate record of the overall no. of 'hits' made, it is certainly not an accurate record of the no. of people who have viewed the McCann vids..
With respect Blonk - if your purpose was to plug Richard Hall and his McCann videos by impressing folk with 'significant viewing figures' - then in the absence of any statistics defining and differentiating between the above alternative scenarios - the stats you quote have virtually no value at all imo - because they are devoid of any of the information required in order to make a judgement on the impact - or lack of it - which RH's videos actually makes on the McCann case.
p.s. Is this Richard Hall the same RH who described independent journalist Jenny Kleeman as a puppet?
You wrote: So in reality - you can have no idea from your statistics of how many people have actually watched the McCann videos in their entirety, just as you can have no idea what percentage of people who (having watched part or all of them) - came away thinking ... 'Gosh I believe every word RH says' .... as opposed to those thinking ...'Gosh that's the biggest load of conspiratorial tosh I have ever heard?.
REPLY: All of what you say is perfectly true. However, were you to click on every single one of the NINETY-ONE uploads of part or all of his three Madeleine films (I discovered eight more uploads today), and read every single comment (several hundred at least), you would see that the overwhelming reaction from commenters is favourable. "Information-rich", is how one commenter described his films.
You wrote: Neither can you have any idea of the number of people who have repeatedly clicked on the videos and in so doing increased the total no. of 'hits' by 1 - each time they did that. Therefore, while that total is an accurate record of the overall no. of 'hits' made, it is certainly not an accurate record of the no. of people who have viewed the McCann vids.
REPLY: You are right - and I have never said otherwise
You wrote: With respect Blonk - if your purpose was to plug Richard Hall and his McCann videos by impressing folk with 'significant viewing figures' - then in the absence of any statistics defining and differentiating between the above alternative scenarios - the stats you quote have virtually no value at all imo - because they are devoid of any of the information required in order to make a judgement on the impact - or lack of it - which RH's videos actually makes on the McCann case.
REPLY: I entered the thread again because one of the McCann-supporters was saying this thread was 'a disgrace' and should never have been started. I made the simple point that the numbers of views were significant - so much so that they prompted an independent journalist (Kleeman) to pitch an article and a mini-documentary to the editor of the Guardian on why there was increasing opposition on the internet to the McCanns' account of events. She began work on the project but it appears that she may have abandoned it now.
You wrote: p.s. Is this Richard Hall the same RH who described independent journalist Jenny Kleeman as a puppet?
REPLY: Yes. And it's looking like she may not be. I spoke to her twice and sent her some information on the facts of the case. Maybe she thought better of it. She may have made a very wise decision.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 27, 2016, 02:37:17 PM
Just to make it clear once again, I can only count the number of 'views'.
Every time any one person clicks on a link to a video, Google automatically counts another 'view'.
To take a specific example, this recent upload of 'When Madeleine Died?': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oo2-Sj7to
...had had 13,774 views to 11.40pm on Wednesday (23rd March).
Just now when I checked, it had had 14,319 views.
So another 545 views in less than 2 days.
Of course, no-one can say exactly how many are returning viewers, but I suspect not that many.
And the 545 who viewed the link above on YouTube in the last two days are those who viewed just ONE of at least EIGHTY-THREE separate uploads of all or part of Hall's three films, during the same period.
This one upload of Hall's first Madeleine film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIjPcvmVzUo
...has had well over a quarter of a million views to date...
...a 'view' rate alone of over 440 a day ever since it was first uploaded 19 months ago
Dear Blonk
I am finding your input into this forum as seriously Contra the Mccanns (how twee that we are not allowed to use the normal word ant* instead of Contre 8)-))) )
You are using this forum to advertise other sites that seriously demean and cast unproven aspersions against The Mccanns, who let me remind you, are innocent unless proven guilty. Again, THEY ARE INNOCENT.
In fact there is NO evidence of any sort against The Mccanns of any criminality, or even of neglect as seen by the Law. The Police, nor the Law is interested in them as the perpetrators.
And this forum is allowing you to abuse them by promoting such.
I remember on this forum, when HI-de-Ho was prevented from doing the same. It was said then that no one of either side couild use such tactics BUT ... later she was snuck in by the back door several times by other "operatives".... and no-one stopped it
John. Can you please clean the "act" up, as you did under pressure about Hi de Ho (but then let it slip again). Thank you.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 27, 2016, 02:42:04 PM
I am finding your input into this forum as seriously Contra the Mccanns (how twee that we are not allowed to use the normal word ant* instead of Contre 8)-))) )
You are using this forum to advertise other sites that seriously demean and cast unproven aspersions against The Mccanns, who let me remind you, are innocent unless proven guilty. Again, THEY ARE INNOCENT.
In fact there is NO evidence of any sort against The Mccanns of any criminality, or even of neglect as seen by the Law. The Police, nor the Law is interested in them as the perpetrators.
And this forum is allowing you to abuse them by promoting such.
I remember on this forum, when HI-de-Ho was prevented from doing the same. It was said then that no one of either side couild use such tactics BUT ... later she was snuck in by the back door several times by other "operatives".... and no-one stopped it
John. Can you please clean the "act" up, as you did under pressure about Hi de Ho (but then let it slip again). Thank you.
@ blonk
Do you think that Bennett is in league with Richard Hall? Did he help, or mainly, produce the offensive material? Cos if so I hope the Courts are noticing.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 27, 2016, 03:29:43 PM
Sadie,
I am not aware of the history of this, therefore I cannot comment on such previous handling.
May I suggest that if you wish to bring something to John's attention, it would be better to PM him. He has a lot of area to cover and therefore relies on the forum team to do most of the groundwork. As such, I doubt that he reads every post on here.
I have modified your last two posts in a very minor manner, but let 99% stand as is.
You are entitled to your opinion, and to express it. I happen to hold a different point of view to you on this.
This forum is, AFAIK, the only one where Mr Hall's video is being subjected to critical independent analysis. If this voice is silenced, the remainder appears to be propaganda type support for the video. Personally, I am happier to see the issues with Mr Hall's video brought into the light.
I happen to hold a similar opinion about topics such as the Tennis Balls photo and the Last Photo i.e. that it is better to examine them on a balanced forum rather than to not air our members views on these.
Of course, John is free to delete any topic he deems inappropriate. I am simply expressing my opinion as a commentator.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
I am not aware of the history of this, therefore I cannot comment on such previous handling.
May I suggest that if you wish to bring something to John's attention, it would be better to PM him. He has a lot of area to cover and therefore relies on the forum team to do most of the groundwork. As such, I doubt that he reads every post on here.
I have modified your last two posts in a very minor manner, but let 99% stand as is.
You are entitled to your opinion, and to express it. I happen to hold a different point of view to you on this.
This forum is, AFAIK, the only one where Mr Hall's video is being subjected to critical independent analysis. If this voice is silenced, the remainder appears to be propaganda type support for the video. Personally, I am happier to see the issues with Mr Hall's video brought into the light.
I happen to hold a similar opinion about topics such as the Tennis Balls photo and the Last Photo i.e. that it is better to examine them on a balanced forum rather than to not air our members views on these.
Of course, John is free to delete any topic he deems inappropriate. I am simply expressing my opinion as a commentator.
Agreed. We should censor nothing - unless it breaks forum rules.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 27, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
Trouble is that if there is an (entirely arbitrary) forum dictum that something should not be discussed then it isn't; or attempts to discuss it are suppressed.
That's censorship ...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2016, 04:23:00 PM
I haven't noticed that happening, but the editors word is final as far as I'm concerned and those that don't like it can always choose to go elsewhere.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 27, 2016, 04:44:50 PM
I am not aware of the history of this, therefore I cannot comment on such previous handling.
May I suggest that if you wish to bring something to John's attention, it would be better to PM him. He has a lot of area to cover and therefore relies on the forum team to do most of the groundwork. As such, I doubt that he reads every post on here.
I have modified your last two posts in a very minor manner, but let 99% stand as is.
You are entitled to your opinion, and to express it. I happen to hold a different point of view to you on this.
This forum is, AFAIK, the only one where Mr Hall's video is being subjected to critical independent analysis. If this voice is silenced, the remainder appears to be propaganda type support for the video. Personally, I am happier to see the issues with Mr Hall's video brought into the light.
I happen to hold a similar opinion about topics such as the Tennis Balls photo and the Last Photo i.e. that it is better to examine them on a balanced forum rather than to not air our members views on these.
Of course, John is free to delete any topic he deems inappropriate. I am simply expressing my opinion as a commentator.
Thank you Shining for coming back to me. It was the impressive brain and poster gilet, IIRC, and maybe the equally impressive American intellectual, Debunker who got Hi-de-Ho's videos removed from this forum. It is my mind that we were told at the time that such blatent myths, disinformation and conspiracy blurb would not be allowed on forum
As for Richard Hall and his stuff, i have no bones about his stuff being discussed. It should be, but I aint entering the fray.
What i do have is an anger that Blonk appears to be on here mainly to advertise his petition, and nasty sites like these. At one time he was daily advertising the damned petition. This is not an advertising site ... nor ever should be.
What I also hope is that if Bennett is breaking his commitments to the Courts, that he is held responsible for his actions. I have no wish to see him lose his home but if he flaunts his commitments to the Courts, then so be it. It will be his own fault
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would say that I was in Court. Bennett had a huge following with the Court being packed with his followers. I subsequently heard from the mouth of one of his followers that it had been pre arranged that they would pack out the Court so that no supporters of the Mccanns could get a seat. I managed to get in one session out of three. Otherwise, I think only two, maybe three others from our side managed to get seats out of 3 sessions ..... That is not 'Right and Proper' behaviour. And these people go on about Justice !!!
What I really noticed was that in the video of Bennett approaching the Crown Courts he looked so dreadfully forlorn and alone. That was a put on for the TV cameras, just to get the heart strings going ... The woman behind him at a just respectable distance was his friend who helped him with the case. They pretended not to know each other !
Poor Tony Bennett, all alone and those dreadful Mccanns! 8)><( .
What a double deceit.
Bring on the violin music.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 27, 2016, 05:11:49 PM
Hi De Ho was given ample opportunity to answer questions about her videos. She declined, and left. So there was no censorship. Her videos were only removed after that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 27, 2016, 05:45:09 PM
Hi De Ho was given ample opportunity to answer questions about her videos. She declined, and left. So there was no censorship. Her videos were only removed after that.
Thank you Eleanor. My view is that this forum is valuable in allowing and encouraging debate from all sides. In the context of this case, where opinions tend to become very strongly polarised and debate heated, is quite an achievement and John and the moderators should take full credit for this. And this forum is unique in this respect.
I have never believed in censorship - much better to have open debate.
Keep up the good work
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 27, 2016, 05:58:07 PM
Thank you Eleanor. My view is that this forum is valuable in allowing and encouraging debate from all sides. In the context of this case, where opinions tend to become very strongly polarised and debate heated, is quite an achievement and John and the moderators should take full credit for this. And this forum is unique in this respect.
I have never believed in censorship - much better to have open debate.
Keep up the good work
John has done an amazing job. He might not always be here, but believe me, he always knows what is going on.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2016, 06:33:56 PM
John has done an amazing job. He might not always be here, but believe me, he always knows what is going on.
I disagree...the forum is still heavily weighted towards the sceptics which has caused the best pro posters to leave
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 27, 2016, 06:37:31 PM
Was Madeleine at High Tea on 3 May 2007?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZV9Ten-HkY
The relevant slab in Mr Hall's documentary runs from c27.05 to c49.18, so Mr Hall devotes about 22 minutes as to whether Madeleine was alive at the time.
At the start of this, Cat Baker is used to describe High Tea. It is a process that takes place near the Tapas Bar and is attended by children, parents and crèche nannies.
Mr Hall then asserts that this High Tea was not confirmed by independent witnesses. G-Unit has produced a list of people who should have attended High Tea that day, and it is not a short list, albeit most of them did not give statements that have been released to the public.
The complete absence of a High Tea that day would take us straight into 'massive conspiracy theory'.
However, Mr Raj Balu did give a statement, and he says that his child attended the High Tea that day, and that afterwards the Tapas Bar was full, as per usual. Mr Balu socialised with his partner, his child, Mr Neil Berry, Mr Berry's wife, presumably the Berry's child, two women who did not give statements, and presumably other parents and children who were involved in the High Tea.
I may be wrong, but it seems the signing out procedure required the nanny of any particular group of children to be present to see 'her' children signed out. The basic pattern seems to require multiple nannies to attend, not just Cat Baker.
At this point there is a simple choice about that High Tea. Either, it did not take place, requiring a massive conspiracy, or it took place. I simply cannot see this particular massive conspiracy option standing up to basic scrutiny.
By this point, I have only covered Mr Hall's video from c27.05 to c28.03. There is thus a considerable way to travel, but this post is long enough, so I will leave the remainder to another time.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 27, 2016, 06:44:59 PM
A 'view' could be anything from say half a minute and then decoding not to bother, to watching the whole of one of Hall's 4-hour Madeleine's films at one sitting.
You asked: "What if a person 'views' the same video in its entirety by making several repeat visits to it - does every new visit count as another 'view'?"
ANSWER: Yes, I am almost certain that it does count as another view each time.
But I've nowhere claimed that the stats were of viewings of the whole film.
It's just that they are significant viewing figures, even allowing for the fact that some 'views' may be quite short.
Given that not that many people are interested in the minutiae of the Madeleine McCann case, to have well over a million views (including those viewed elsewhere than YouTube, that is) in 18 months, with another 2,400 or more 'clocking on' every single day to view more of his films, is enough to raise eyebrows in some quarters.
It is certainly what motivated independent journalist Jenny Kleeman to travel up to Nottingham and try to film Hall at one of his meetings last year
#so back on topic... your claim that "another 2400 or more are clocking on every day" has absolutely no basis in fact
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 27, 2016, 10:41:16 PM
I do believe that this is unfair. There is absolutely no sign of bias from either of the two new Moderators.
And no one knows better than I of how hurtful it is to be accused when one is genuinely doing one's best to be fair.
The two newest Maderators will behave in a good and honourable manner, because that is the nature of both of them as with you too Eleanor and dear Anna. But there has been considerable bias shown by several moderators in the past and quite recent past at that.
Davel is right. This forum had some outstanding posters who were banned for inadequate reasons. Also some were deliberately set upon by a "gang" and harrassed out.
My congratulations to Brietta and Shining for their new Modship positions ... and my thanks to you Eleanor and Anna for your fairness and unbiased modding. I wasn't on forum for the voting.
Do hope that you will be a lot better soon Anna
sadie x
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 27, 2016, 10:48:38 PM
Hi De Ho was given ample opportunity to answer questions about her videos. She declined, and left. So there was no censorship. Her videos were only removed after that.
I think that you came on here maybe a little before me, Eleanor ... and i caught the end of the Hi-de-ho scandal.
It was my understanding, i think from gilet, that the videos had been censored. Gilet certainly fought very hard to have them removed. I would call it sensored, because much of their content was just myths against the Mccanns.... and untrue.
However, I see that these propaganda videos have been slowly creeping back in.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2016, 10:52:13 PM
The two newest Maderators will behave in a good and honourable manner, because that is the nature of both of them as with you too Eleanor and dear Anna. But there has been considerable bias shown by several moderators in the past and quite recent past at that.
Davel is right. This forum had some outstanding posters who were banned for inadequate reasons. Also some were deliberately set upon by a "gang" and harrassed out.
My congratulations to Brietta and Shining for their new Modship positions ... and my thanks to you Eleanor and Anna for your fairness and unbiased modding. I wasn't on forum for the voting.
Do hope that you will be a lot better soon Anna
sadie x
If people can give examples of biased moderating we can discuss. If they can only make assertions they should keep their opinions to themselves imo. The mods work for no reward for the benefit of all members. If a post is edited or deleted all a member needs to do is rephrase it and repost.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 27, 2016, 11:05:21 PM
If people can give examples of biased moderating we can discuss. If they can only make assertions they should keep their opinions to themselves imo. The mods work for no reward for the benefit of all members. If a post is edited or deleted all a member needs to do is rephrase it and repost.
We don't agree very often G unit -but on this we do.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: sadie on March 27, 2016, 11:06:40 PM
If people can give examples of biased moderating we can discuss. If they can only make assertions they should keep their opinions to themselves imo. The mods work for no reward for the benefit of all members. If a post is edited or deleted all a member needs to do is rephrase it and repost.
The two mods that I refer to have both moderated their stances very recently, but they have shown their bias in a very big way many times in the past and recent past too.
If you are unable to work out who I mean, then i must assume that you have beenn treated differently to me, davel and Alfie + a few others.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 27, 2016, 11:15:31 PM
There is the outside chance that posters are penalised for transgressions not because the mod is of one persuasion and the poster of another.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2016, 09:46:11 AM
If people can give examples of biased moderating we can discuss. If they can only make assertions they should keep their opinions to themselves imo. The mods work for no reward for the benefit of all members. If a post is edited or deleted all a member needs to do is rephrase it and repost.
#a post by angelo....made to john
Dare I suggest you start with the Maddie case.
ps thanks for the warning, I do apologise for winding up davel.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 12:49:25 PM by Angelo222 »
angelo was given penalty points for the incident so please don't pretend it doesn't happen. I don't intend to dwell on the issue but there were many other examples but the posts have been removed. For me it is impossible to debate on a level playing field on this forum
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on March 28, 2016, 10:06:00 AM
The two mods that I refer to have both moderated their stances very recently, but they have shown their bias in a very big way many times in the past and recent past too.
If you are unable to work out who I mean, then i must assume that you have beenn treated differently to me, davel and Alfie + a few others.
As mods we remove libellous posts, abuse, goading, spamming and the fallout from those posts and as a last resort due to repeated infractions award points. This applies to both sides. Stick to the rules and your posts will be fine. Recent events have resulted in less infractions on the board in general which has made moderation easier.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 10:13:15 AM
As mods we remove libellous posts, abuse, goading, spamming and the fallout from those posts and as a last resort due to repeated infractions award points. This applies to both sides. Stick to the rules and your posts will be fine. Recent events have resulted in less infractions on the board in general which has made moderation easier.
This board teems with libellous posts (against Kate and Gerry!) and the general 'policy', there, is to encourage more of the same.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 10:19:03 AM
ps thanks for the warning, I do apologise for winding up davel.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 12:49:25 PM by Angelo222 »
angelo was given penalty points for the incident so please don't pretend it doesn't happen. I don't intend to dwell on the issue but there were many other examples but the posts have been removed. For me it is impossible to debate on a level playing field on this forum
For you a level playing field means no sceptic moderators.
..........and you are dwelling on the issue.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 28, 2016, 10:19:56 AM
MOD NOTE
I am not particularly happy about discussing moderation in open forum.
For those who are not mods, please note every single action taken in mod mode enters a very, very detailed log.
So while I was never watched as an ordinary member, every time I use the Moderator button, I now get watched.
This is the same for all mods here, and across the entire Miscarriage of Justice forums.
I get to see what every moderator is doing. But more importantly, those higher up the mod pyramid get detailed information about which mod did precisely what.
If you have an issue with a specific act taken by a moderator, the simple recourse is to raise a complaint with Admin or John. The log will show what happened.
If you have a general issue with a moderator, you have much the same recourse. Keep track of say three complaints, and pop your complaint to Admin or John.
The history of moderation here is precisely that. It is history that was dealt with, correctly or otherwise, at the time.
To flesh out this picture, the final thing you should know is that I have no real power to undo any significant decision taken by another moderator. So if you feel an action taken has been unjust, please refer it to Admin or John.
If you are concerned by the fact that this topic is on the forum, please feel free to express your opinion. That is why we have this type of forum. If you feel strongly about it, or you feel it breaches forum rules, again I would suggest that a PM to Admin or John is the best route. Bear in mind the length of the topic so far, and the fact that neither Admin or John has seen fit to delete it.
Can we now get back on topic, please?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2016, 10:20:03 AM
I will try to explain the defence of 'honest comment'.
You and I are in a room.
You have an ice cream.
There is no one else in the room.
You put the ice cream down (somewhere in the room) to leave the room to do something else (it doesn't matter what).
While you are gone, I pick up your ice cream and eat it, but you don't catch me red-handed eating your ice cream.
Still, somehow (it doesn't matter how) you are able to prove that in your absence, no one else entered the room.
More than that, you spot, upon re-entering the room, that I have ice cream planted all over my mouth and you take a (timed) photograph of the evidence.
You are able to prove that I did not leave the room during your absence.
You accuse me of stealing your ice cream.
That is an example of the defence of 'honest comment', or 'opinion based on fact' (the recent innovation in UK libel law).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 11:07:00 AM
Ferryman has been allowed to call him lots of names and not been penalised afaik.
Lots of names?
I have undertaken detailed analysis of dog-handling and certainly received sin-bin points for doing so ....
Also had threads swept off the board.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 11:21:01 AM
In respect of Kate and Gerry, it probably passes muster (as non-libellous) to accuse them of 'neglect' for leaving the kids.
It is proven that they left the kids and, so long as you make plain they did check on them (also proven) you are entitled to the opinion (based on fact) that leaving them was 'negligent'.
But the more generalised comment about parenting skills (or alleged lack of them) goes much wider. The children (the twins) are healthy, clean, well-dressed, well balanced, no evidence of parental neglect or lack of love; children of loving and attentive parents.
To suggest otherwise is libel.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2016, 11:43:20 AM
Nothing stays the same, davel. The days when personal attacks on other posters were allowed are gone. Get used to it and abide by the rules of the forum and you won't have a problem. Simple!
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 12:00:06 PM
Discussion of Richard Hall's video (on this very thread) libels Kate and Gerry ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2016, 12:22:56 PM
Nothing stays the same, davel. The days when personal attacks on other posters were allowed are gone. Get used to it and abide by the rules of the forum and you won't have a problem. Simple!
I agree totally. I have never had a justifiable beef against the modding. I was penalised heavily by a supporter mod once for being abusive in retaliation against a supporter. Fair doos. Under the same circumstances I would let rip again, but I rather think that problem has been resolved. It might help some to read The Defamation Act of 2013.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 28, 2016, 12:43:24 PM
Discussion of Richard Hall's video (on this very thread) libels Kate and Gerry ....
Mr Hall's video may or may not amount to libel. I suspect the probabilities are heavily stacked in favour of one of these options.
Discussion of the video is not, IMO, libel per se. It would be if one knew the video was libellous and one re-iterated that libel.
I would have thought that any McCann supporter would be grateful for a ready made, impartial analysis of the accuracy or otherwise of the video. Am I wrong in that assumption?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 12:48:24 PM
Mr Hall's video may or may not amount to libel. I suspect the probabilities are heavily stacked in favour of one of these options.
Discussion of the video is not, IMO, libel per se. It would be if one knew the video was libellous and one re-iterated that libel.
I would have thought that any McCann supporter would be grateful for a ready made, impartial analysis of the accuracy or otherwise of the video. Am I wrong in that assumption?
The title of the thread (and of Hall's video), in its own right, libels Kate and Gerry.
There is no evidence (at least in the public domain) that Madeleine is dead.
Far from all comment (on this thread) will be libel.
But much of it will be.
And the film itself (displayed on this board for all to watch) certainly is.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 12:52:20 PM
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
Like it or not opinion is divided on this case. Rather than censoring different theories it's better to examine them critically and point out any mistakes imo. Every theory proposed in this case should be critically examined, it all serves to educate people as to what can and cannot be stated as fact.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 01:04:37 PM
The title of the thread (and of Hall's video), in its own right, libels Kate and Gerry.
There is no evidence (at least in the public domain) that Madeleine is dead.
Far from all comment (on this thread) will be libel.
But much of it will be.
And the film itself (displayed on this board for all to watch) certainly is.
Further more, it was probably entered onto thuis forum as subject to discuss, not for the discussion itself, but to advertise and promote it to people that would not normally have bothered with it
It is a PROMOTION SCAM folks !
And we by discussing it ... are further promoting what imo and in the opinion of others is Libel ... because people like reading a good argument.
If there is any chance this is libel, and it is thought that there is, it should NOT be screened on this forum . The thread should be wiped in its entirity... immediately.
Of course the forum is pretty safe from libel because it is run from another country ... were you all aware of that?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on March 28, 2016, 01:07:37 PM
Nothing stays the same, davel. The days when personal attacks on other posters were allowed are gone. Get used to it and abide by the rules of the forum and you won't have a problem. Simple!
what I object to most that my post that there was no real evidence in the cipriano case resulted in me being suspended as the mods objected to that statement...that in my view is plain censorship
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 01:33:08 PM
Now if you believe she is alive, and with the unparalleled publicity in this case, where would she be ?
THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED MANY TIMES, THOUGH YET TO RECEIVE AN ANSWER !!!
You seem to be under a false impression that everyone in the world knows about Madeleine McCann & would recognise her. In the same way that almost no-one in the UK would recognise one of the most famous US missing children, Trenton Duckett, if he was living on their street, virtually no-one in the US or Canada would recognise Madeleine. She could be anywhere if she is still alive.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2016, 02:13:39 PM
what I object to most that my post that there was no real evidence in the cipriano case resulted in me being suspended as the mods objected to that statement...that in my view is plain censorship
Perhaps it was the way you said it? Your post above is still there, so there must have been more to it than that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 02:45:57 PM
You seem to be under a false impression that everyone in the world knows about Madeleine McCann & would recognise her. In the same way that almost no-one in the UK would recognise one of the most famous US missing children, Trenton Duckett, if he was living on their street, virtually no-one in the US or Canada would recognise Madeleine. She could be anywhere if she is still alive.
Try answering the question I posed, rather than ignoring it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 28, 2016, 02:51:29 PM
Okay. Anymore posts containing insults or goading will be deleted in full.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2016, 02:51:42 PM
You seem to be under a false impression that everyone in the world knows about Madeleine McCann & would recognise her. In the same way that almost no-one in the UK would recognise one of the most famous US missing children, Trenton Duckett, if he was living on their street, virtually no-one in the US or Canada would recognise Madeleine. She could be anywhere if she is still alive.
I wouldn't have recognised her at the time, let alone now. Her only identifying feature was the alleged coloboma. How many similar-looking children were dismissed because they only had a barely noticeable 'fleck' in their eye, I wonder. It looked so big in the photographs.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 03:08:23 PM
On the question of censorship, read my signature.
I have attempted to begin a thread wishing Victoria Derbyshire well in her battle against cancer.
It was never allowed to see light of day.
I have added a post to an existing thread wishing Victoria Derbyshire well in her battle against cancer.
My post was removed.
What's to say?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2016, 03:11:06 PM
Perhaps it was considered irrelevant to the board.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 03:14:12 PM
Try answering the question I posed, rather than ignoring it.
I have answered your question fully, based on the information available. Who managed to hide the corpse of poor Khandalyce Pearce for 7 years before it was dumped? How do Interpol's most wanted escape detection for years? Walk down any street these days & many folk are looking at their phones, not what's going on around them. Walk down any street & ask any resident which houses have children living in them. If alive, Madeleine could be anywhere. If dead, Madeleine could be anywhere. OG have been working on the premise that Madeleine was alive up until the time of the Tapas meal. That totally negates the assertions of R. Hall & his DVD's should be treated with the disdain they deserve.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 03:27:13 PM
I have answered your question fully, based on the information available. Who managed to hide the corpse of poor Khandalyce Pearce for 7 years before it was dumped? How do Interpol's most wanted escape detection for years? Walk down any street these days & many folk are looking at their phones, not what's going on around them. Walk down any street & ask any resident which houses have children living in them. If alive, Madeleine could be anywhere. If dead, Madeleine could be anywhere. OG have been working on the premise that Madeleine was alive up until the time of the Tapas meal. That totally negates the assertions of R. Hall & his DVD's should be treated with the disdain they deserve.
Perhaps you would care to remind me of the parallels with the mccann case.
IMO, those who 'believe' Madeleine will be found alive know in reality she won't and/or have reasons for plying that line.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2016, 03:37:44 PM
(Intended as a response to Stephen 25000, not Misty)
(Stephen25000)
Quote
Perhaps you would care to remind me of the parallels with the mccann case.
IMO, those who 'believe' Madeleine will be found alive know in reality she won't and/or have reasons for plying that line.
There are, perhaps, reasons for attempting to gently steer relatives of a missing loved-one, hovering between grief and hope over the fate of a (missing) loved-one, towards the worst assumption.
But I don't, somehow, think that that's your reasoning or rationale ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 28, 2016, 03:39:04 PM
Perhaps you would care to remind me of the parallels with the mccann case.
IMO, those who 'believe' Madeleine will be found alive know in reality she won't and/or have reasons for plying that line.
Do those who hope or believe she will be found alive have less validity than those who hope or believe it was the parentswotdunit/Madeleine is dead & continue to ply their lines?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 03:41:40 PM
There are, perhaps, psychological reasons for attempting to gently steer a loved-one, hovering between grief and hope over the (undetermined) fate of a missing loved-one, towards acceptance of the worst assumption (that the missing person is dead).
But I don't, somehow, think that that's your reasoning or rationale ....
...and you have clear cut reasons for shouting abduction and trying to imply that she could be found alive, regardless of the fact there has been no sign of her for almost 9 years.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2016, 03:44:00 PM
...and you have clear cut reasons for shouting abduction and trying to imply that she could be found alive, regardless of the fact there has been no sign of her for almost 9 years.
The Portuguese prosecutors said Madeleine was abducted.
Andy Redwood said there is a chance Madeleine might be alive.
Will that do?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 28, 2016, 03:50:11 PM
I have answered your question fully, based on the information available. Who managed to hide the corpse of poor Khandalyce Pearce for 7 years before it was dumped? How do Interpol's most wanted escape detection for years? Walk down any street these days & many folk are looking at their phones, not what's going on around them. Walk down any street & ask any resident which houses have children living in them. If alive, Madeleine could be anywhere. If dead, Madeleine could be anywhere. OG have been working on the premise that Madeleine was alive up until the time of the Tapas meal. That totally negates the assertions of R. Hall & his DVD's should be treated with the disdain they deserve.
You and I will never agree on much but in this instance .... &%+((£ The King Pin for Hall's argument is that the PJ were incorrect to think there was a17:30 sighting and he [Hall] was right to think there was no such sighting without much in the way of back up for that thought. That's where I said "goodnight Mr Hall". If there was a 17:30 sighting all the rest of Halls argument becomes superfluous narrative. Wet tennis courts, pristine sandals, how big and what colour the balls were, hats, who took the pic............. ; if however one has got down to that level of detail and is arguing about it seriously then ipso fatso one has accepted Hall's King Pin to be a truth.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on March 28, 2016, 03:50:45 PM
You and I will never agree on much but in this instance .... &%+((£ The King Pin for Hall's argument is that the PJ were incorrect to think there was a17:30 sighting and he [Hall] was right to think there was no such sighting without much in the way of back up for that thought. That's where I said "goodnight Mr Hall". If there was a 17:30 sighting all the rest of Halls argument becomes superfluous narrative. Wet tennis courts, pristine sandals, how big and what colour the balls were, hats, who took the pic............. ; if however one has got down to that level of detail and is arguing about it seriously then ipso fatso one has accepted Hall's King Pin to be a truth.
"Superfluous Narrative." I like that description.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2016, 03:54:48 PM
You and I will never agree on much but in this instance .... &%+((£ The King Pin for Hall's argument is that the PJ were incorrect to think there was a17:30 sighting and he [Hall] was right to think there was no such sighting without much in the way of back up for that thought. That's where I said "goodnight Mr Hall". If there was a 17:30 sighting all the rest of Halls argument becomes superfluous narrative. Wet tennis courts, pristine sandals, how big and what colour the balls were, hats, who took the pic............. ; if however one has got down to that level of detail and is arguing about it seriously then ipso fatso one has accepted Hall's King Pin to be a truth.
Good point. Who saw Madeleine at 17.30 then? Cat Baker for one;
Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar area and according to what I remember she was wearing sporting clothes and I assumed that she was practicing some form of athletics. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Her colleague doesn't remember;
she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.
She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
The receptionist doesn't remember;
Regarding the days when the events took place, she remembers that her working day was normal and she did not notice anything strange that could be of interest for the proceedings. On this same day, at around 17h30 she remembers having left the reception area and going to get her salary, but she does not remember having seen Madeleine and her parents enter the Tapas restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ELISA.htm
One of the cooks remembers;
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Two for (only one of whom really knew her) and two don't knows. Any more?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 28, 2016, 10:24:56 PM
Good point. Who saw Madeleine at 17.30 then? Cat Baker for one;
Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar area and according to what I remember she was wearing sporting clothes and I assumed that she was practicing some form of athletics. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Her colleague doesn't remember;
she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.
She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
The receptionist doesn't remember;
Regarding the days when the events took place, she remembers that her working day was normal and she did not notice anything strange that could be of interest for the proceedings. On this same day, at around 17h30 she remembers having left the reception area and going to get her salary, but she does not remember having seen Madeleine and her parents enter the Tapas restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ELISA.htm
One of the cooks remembers;
Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm
Two for (only one of whom really knew her) and two don't knows.
Any more?
Any more?
Well, yes, we have the recollections of Gerry and Kate McCann.
Unfortunately for the claims about the alleged high tea, their statements disagree with each other and furthermore contradict those of Cat Baker.
I say 'those' of Cat Baker because she made two statements. The one you quote was made on 18 April 2008. By that time, she had had 351 days to think about her answers.
It was a funny affair that high tea. So the cook saw Madeleine at 4.30pm? Gerry says he got there at 4.45pm. The crèche sheets, it is claimed, were taken to the Tapas restaurant that day and apparently signed by Kate at 5.25 (twins) and IIRC Gerry at 5.30 (Madeleine). But one of the staff said that they were all enjoying themselves so much that they carried on until 6.00pm.
Given that Madeleine was, according to Kate, 'pale', 'worn out' and 'exhausted' ('madeleine', Kate McCann, pp. 66-7), it's perhaps surprising that Gerry didn't notice this and take Madeleine back earlier. Then we learn ('madeleine', p. 67) that the three children all went back with Mummy and Daddy to the apartment, with Kate 'carrying Madeleine', despite a hearty jog just earlier, and Gerry presumably sauntering along with the twins while his wife was carrying Madeleine, who must have weighed well over 2 stone. Not very gentlemanly.
A bit later, however, Madeleine perked up and said: "Mummy, this was my best day ever".
At 6.30pm Kate and David Payne claimed they had an encounter at the apartment. Their stories about what happened when he arrived at the apartment do not match in any way at all.
Of course, there are some who wave away all talk of contradictions and discrepancies and discount them altogether.
To my mind, based on the available evidence, that high tea with Madeleine on 3 May remains unproven at best.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 29, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
Well, yes, we have the recollections of Gerry and Kate McCann.
Unfortunately for the claims about the alleged high tea, their statements disagree with each other and furthermore contradict those of Cat Baker.
I say 'those' of Cat Baker because she made two statements. The one you quote was made on 18 April 2008. By that time, she had had 351 days to think about her answers.
It was a funny affair that high tea. So the cook saw Madeleine at 4.30pm? Gerry says he got there at 4.45pm. The crèche sheets, it is claimed, were taken to the Tapas restaurant that day and apparently signed by Kate at 5.25 (twins) and IIRC Gerry at 5.30 (Madeleine). But one of the staff said that they were all enjoying themselves so much that they carried on until 6.00pm.
Given that Madeleine was, according to Kate, 'pale', 'worn out' and 'exhausted' ('madeleine', Kate McCann, pp. 66-7), it's perhaps surprising that Gerry didn't notice this and take Madeleine back earlier. Then we learn ('madeleine', p. 67) that the three children all went back with Mummy and Daddy to the apartment, with Kate 'carrying Madeleine', despite a hearty jog just earlier, and Gerry presumably sauntering along with the twins while his wife was carrying Madeleine, who must have weighed well over 2 stone. Not very gentlemanly.
A bit later, however, Madeleine perked up and said: "Mummy, this was my best day ever".
At 6.30pm Kate and David Payne claimed they had an encounter at the apartment. Their stories about what happened when he arrived at the apartment do not match in any way at all.
Of course, there are some who wave away all talk of contradictions and discrepancies and discount them altogether.
To my mind, based on the available evidence, that high tea with Madeleine on 3 May remains unproven at best.
You have conjoined two ideas. First, High Tea on the 3rd. With, second, Madeleine in attendance.
Alice P is correct. If it can be shown that there was High Tea on 3 May AND that Madeleine attended, then Mr Hall's video dies in the first quarter.
Proving that High Tea took place on 3 May 2007, to a standard accepted by a civil or criminal court, is not hard. That High Tea happened. I do not need to resort to anything beyond the PJ Files. G-Unit has assembled the cast for that High Tea, and the credits are lengthy.
The second bit is the conjoined bit. Was Madeleine at that High Tea? I think that bit is tougher, but I think it is worthy of a bit of unbiased clinical analysis.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 29, 2016, 12:40:53 AM
If you don't believe Madeleine was alive on 3 May (I believe she was) then the next logical step is to interrogate the last witness other than the family to have seen her. Madeleine was present at two holidays both organised by this person.
"The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to.................. &%+((£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2016, 12:45:56 AM
Gerry McCann forgot that his wife went for a run on the beach. After their tennis lesson finished at 16.30;
The stayed in that place, talking, until 16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
In this statement is the 'awnings' comment by the way (it should be in the tea, tennis thread really);
At 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Of course Kate signed for all the children on 3rd and CB the nanny didn't see Gerry at all.
The receptionist didn't see Kate returning to the Tapas from her run.
Unless the cook left the restaurant area and walked towards the exit examining the children under the awnings it's unlikely she saw Madeleine either.
I don't know how the food got from the kitchen to the awning area, no-one mentions that. Was it perhaps a 'snack' as a few people have described it? More of a cold buffet than a hot meal? Fiona mentions cooking for the other children at lunchtime; 'giving them a hot meal'. Would she have done that if they had another one later?
The designated child chef didn't arrive at the resort until 5th May, if I'm reading it correctly. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_852.jpg
The children ate under the orange awnings, although I think they were white on 3rd May;
If you don't believe Madeleine was alive on 3 May (I believe she was) then the next logical step is to interrogate the last witness other than the family to have seen her. Madeleine was present at two holidays both organised by this person.
"The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to.................. &%+((£
I'm just trying to discover if she can definitely be placed at high tea.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
If what is above is true, then the McCanns and Madeleine were in G5A at 5pm. It is certainly not impossible.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on March 29, 2016, 01:58:49 AM
Do we have any statements from the swimming instructor or pool lifeguards who would have seen Madeleine during the week?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pegasus on March 29, 2016, 02:23:07 AM
The "not at tapas tea" theory and "not at kidsclub" theory are a huge insult to the mother who clearly describes reading bedtime stories, and to the excellent nannies who stated the child was at kidsclub including at tapas tea, and they are all telling the truth. As I've already said, initial observation about a study about dogs is reasonable, but then the film goes off on a trip in exactly the wrong time direction (and there are only two).
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 29, 2016, 08:54:19 AM
If you don't believe Madeleine was alive on 3 May (I believe she was) then the next logical step is to interrogate the last witness other than the family to have seen her. Madeleine was present at two holidays both organised by this person.
"The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to.................. &%+((£
Yet more libel.
Adroit googling laid bare the whole quote.
But at least, yes, Madeleine was alive on May 3rd.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2016, 09:11:47 AM
The "not at tapas tea" theory and "not at kidsclub" theory are a huge insult to the mother who clearly describes reading bedtime stories, and to the excellent nannies who stated the child was at kidsclub including at tapas tea, and they are all telling the truth. As I've already said, initial observation about a study about dogs is reasonable, but then the film goes off on a trip in exactly the wrong time direction (and there are only two).
Unfortunately I can only find one nanny who says Madeleine was at high tea that day. Perhaps you can find more? The problem with believing everyone is that they sometimes contradict each other. Gerry said he and Kate chatted at the pool after their tennis lesson ended at 4.30pm. Kate says he played another game with another guest and she went for a run. David Payne said he was in G5A at 5pm and Fiona says she went there at 7pm with Kate. You can't believe them all pegasus.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on March 29, 2016, 09:15:16 AM
I'm just trying to discover if she can definitely be placed at high tea.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
If what is above is true, then the McCanns and Madeleine were in G5A at 5pm. It is certainly not impossible.
I think the trick with this is to determine whether the crèche records are wholly reliable or not wholly reliable, and if the latter, which entries if any can be relied on.
Mr Hall appears to claim the records are so unreliable they can be discounted entirely. I am far from convinced of this. In particular, if the records for 3 May are reliable, then Mr Hall's speculation bites the dust.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2016, 01:30:33 PM
I think the trick with this is to determine whether the crèche records are wholly reliable or not wholly reliable, and if the latter, which entries if any can be relied on.
Mr Hall appears to claim the records are so unreliable they can be discounted entirely. I am far from convinced of this. In particular, if the records for 3 May are reliable, then Mr Hall's speculation bites the dust.
There are many unanswered questions about the creche. The problem is the lack of information available to answer the questions.
Why was MBM signed in late and out 15 minutes later on Monday afternoon? Why did the creche activity sheet say the Lobsters played tennis on Monday, but the Tennis sheets said Tuesday? Why did both the nannies working with the Minis say both groups visited the beach together on Wednesday when the activity sheet has no record of that?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 29, 2016, 04:08:15 PM
I'm not pitching for perfection on the crèche records. With a manual system of the type operated I would expect to see anomalies. I would be quite suspicious if the crèche records were 100% accurate, and tied in perfectly with every cross-reference, including the nannies, other parents, the activity records, the T9 statements, workers in the Tapas area, tennis instructors, sailing instructor and more.
Up until around 10pm on 3 May 2007, Madeleine was a person of very little consequence, at least to anyone outside the T9.
I, for one, would not expect to see anyone, bar perhaps 1 or 2 nannies, to be in a position to say definitively that Madeleine was at High Tea that day. It was just another holiday meal with a fairly big bunch of parents, kids and nannies. The T7 could have nailed this, but of course they were at the Paraíso.
Clearly, if Madeleine was dead by High Tea time, we have a conspiracy that involves Kate McCann, Gerry McCann, David Payne, almost certainly Cat Baker (but possibly A N Other on the 'substitute girl' approach) and potentially fiddled crèche records. Personally, even at this span, I would class this as a massive conspiracy, without going any farther back, when the conspiracy gets even bigger.
Hence, I would like to have a look about what we know about the crèche records for the afternoon of 3 May in particular, but keeping an open mind as to their accuracy at other times.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 29, 2016, 04:40:39 PM
I'm not pitching for perfection on the crèche records. With a manual system of the type operated I would expect to see anomalies. I would be quite suspicious if the crèche records were 100% accurate, and tied in perfectly with every cross-reference, including the nannies, other parents, the activity records, the T9 statements, workers in the Tapas area, tennis instructors, sailing instructor and more.
Up until around 10pm on 3 May 2007, Madeleine was a person of very little consequence, at least to anyone outside the T9.
I, for one, would not expect to see anyone, bar perhaps 1 or 2 nannies, to be in a position to say definitively that Madeleine was at High Tea that day. It was just another holiday meal with a fairly big bunch of parents, kids and nannies. The T7 could have nailed this, but of course they were at the Paraíso.
Clearly, if Madeleine was dead by High Tea time, we have a conspiracy that involves Kate McCann, Gerry McCann, David Payne, almost certainly Cat Baker (but possibly A N Other on the 'substitute girl' approach) and potentially fiddled crèche records. Personally, even at this span, I would class this as a massive conspiracy, without going any farther back, when the conspiracy gets even bigger.
Hence, I would like to have a look about what we know about the crèche records for the afternoon of 3 May in particular, but keeping an open mind as to their accuracy at other times.
1. I would be bloody amazed if what seemingly was a bit of a slapdash manual system tied up other than on an approximate basis. Bear in mind though there were only three objectives to the "records" . Signing over the kids from the parents to the O.C /MW and the reverse; and having a record of who was responsible (with) for whom for safety reasons. As long as a group of kids were signed over to a nanny it matters not whether they built sand castles, flew to the moon or mugged old ladies. ( I am just trying to avoid saying "played tennis")
2. True and an oft forgotten fact in the hindsight world we inhabit.
3. If it were a conspiracy I am intrigued by the mechanism by which Cat Baker would have been snared. Those of an overly sensitive nature stop reading now!
Going up to someone you scarcely know and saying: "'ere we've just lost our kid, give us an alibi for next Friday willya cos we are going to cook up this tale that she is alive until the end of the week so just massage the records until then eh...................." It doesn't seem likely to me. Anyone wanna play a shell game?
{SIL has changed one word slightly, whilst leaving the gist of the post intact.}
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2016, 09:34:55 PM
Is it to be expected that parents will be slapdash about their children's well-being when on holiday? Most MW guests are the type to use nurseries at home, and would be familiar with the way they're run. It would be unacceptable for a UK nursery to find a child present who hadn't been signed in, because it drives a huge hole through their insurance requirements. Likewise a parent would be challenged if a child disappeared and wasn't signed out.
Mark Warner appeared to have no systems in place to guard against the possibility of a successful insurance claim against them. Even if the parents become relaxed on holiday the MW staff are working so there's no excuse for the lack of a system showing exactly how many children are present at each session and who signed them in and out. Mark Warner are not subject to Ofsted regulation and inspection like UK nurseries. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml
Because the Mark Warner practices were so lax I have no problem in believing that Madeleine may have left the Minis before high tea on 3rd May. I find it too much to believe that she was absent for much of the week.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 29, 2016, 11:34:41 PM
There was a theory banded around that Madeleine met her fate due to MW neglect and they did a deal with a lot of people, all the olayers and a few bigwigs
Would explain alot of things but maybe out there a bit
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2016, 08:52:03 AM
There was a theory banded around that Madeleine met her fate due to MW neglect and they did a deal with a lot of people, all the olayers and a few bigwigs
Would explain alot of things but maybe out there a bit
I wouldn't be surprised because they seem to me to be an accident waiting to happen. I don't believe the McCanns would go along with it for a minute though. No way would such a reputation conscious couple have agreed to pretend to neglect their children.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on March 30, 2016, 09:05:32 AM
There was a theory banded around that Madeleine met her fate due to MW neglect and they did a deal with a lot of people, all the olayers and a few bigwigs
Would explain alot of things but maybe out there a bit
Mark Warner had no direct responsibility.
I can see no evidence that Mark Warner nannies were other than conscientious and professional.
I'm not aware that the McCanns (nor anyone who supports them) have ever suggested such a thing? ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: carlymichelle on March 30, 2016, 09:30:22 AM
I can see no evidence that Mark Warner nannies were other than conscientious and professional.
I'm not aware that the McCanns (nor anyone who supports them) have ever suggested such a thing? ....
All you have to do, ferryman, to judge the professionalism of one of the nannies and her supervisor is to look at the Lobster Minis sign-in sheets. The afternoon of 30th April was particularly bad. Not being able to demonstrate who's there and who isn't is the height of bad practice. Given the childcare standards of the McCanns I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they think those of Mark Warner are acceptable.
All you have to do, ferryman, to judge the professionalism of one of the nannies and her supervisor is to look at the Lobster Minis sign-in sheets. The afternoon of 30th April was particularly bad. Not being able to demonstrate who's there and who isn't is the height of bad practice. Given the childcare standards of the McCanns and their supporters I'm not at all surprised that they think those of Mark Warner are acceptable.
I resent your implied criticism of my "childcare standards". You know absolutely nothing of my "childcare standards" both professionally and personally, just as I know nothing about your "childcare standards" Could you edit your post please .
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on March 30, 2016, 10:09:53 AM
It is a cheek to assume all McCann's supporters agree with the child care arrangements of the McCann's I for one don't.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2016, 10:20:46 AM
I've edited my post, sorry! I was replying to ferryman and grouped 'the McCanns' and 'their supporters' together because he did.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 30, 2016, 11:56:22 AM
All you have to do, ferryman, to judge the professionalism of one of the nannies and her supervisor is to look at the Lobster Minis sign-in sheets. The afternoon of 30th April was particularly bad. Not being able to demonstrate who's there and who isn't is the height of bad practice. Given the childcare standards of the McCanns I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they think those of Mark Warner are acceptable.
I'm not sure you can rely on the afternoon entries as evidence of poor record keeping. What I am seeing is a particularly poorly scanned document. There appear to be multiple entries that have not been picked up, and even some of the box grid has almost disappeared from sight.
Just thinking out loud at the moment. Most forms tell you to use a dark ink, to get it to scan or copy well. MW crèche would not have needed a copy, so perhaps they were less fussy about this. Maybe, or maybe not.
What can be picked up from this page is interesting.
The idea that a substitute for Madeleine was being used strikes me as ludicrous, but let's chalk it off on the evidence.
M was in the same group as Ella O'Brien, as the record shows.
Therefore to use a substitute - a substitute has to first be arranged, then disappear. This requires a supplier is in on it. If the M child changes during the week, it requires that Cat B is in on it (but not if the child substitutes for M from Sun to Thu). It requires the substitute child is able to respond to Madeleine or Maddie, and keeps her own name secret. On this particular record, it requires that Ella keeps her gob shut about the fact that the substitute is not M.
It is difficult to discern the afternoon time out for M. Further, I haven't looked to see if there is a record for that day for the twins. But on any day the twins and the substitute took high tea together, the twins had to react to this substitute as if she were M.
I haven't checked the records or statements to see if any of the T7 attended a high tea. If so, they are in on it. Either the substitute was at high tea, which they definitely should have noticed, or the substitute wasn't, in which case they should have wondered why the twins were not accompanied by their sister.
Finally, there is the simple issue of looking after the substitute outside of crèche times. Breakfast, lunch, evenings.
To make the substitute theory fly, you need a massive conspiracy plus some cracking child actors.
What is the probability? 0%, IMO.
Unless I am mistaken, that cuts it down to whether the crèche records were being fiddled or not. Even if a substitute was used for a very short period e.g. just Thu afternoon, then Cat B would have to part of the plot. You don't look after a child from Sun to Thu morning, and not notice a sub has been popped in for one session.
So either M was there, as per crèche records, or the records are false. Sloppiness does not enter the equation.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 30, 2016, 12:16:59 PM
All you have to do, ferryman, to judge the professionalism of one of the nannies and her supervisor is to look at the Lobster Minis sign-in sheets. The afternoon of 30th April was particularly bad. Not being able to demonstrate who's there and who isn't is the height of bad practice. Given the childcare standards of the McCanns I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they think those of Mark Warner are acceptable.
I'm not sure you can rely on the afternoon entries as evidence of poor record keeping. What I am seeing is a particularly poorly scanned document. There appear to be multiple entries that have not been picked up, and even some of the box grid has almost disappeared from sight.
Just thinking out loud at the moment. Most forms tell you to use a dark ink, to get it to scan or copy well. MW crèche would not have needed a copy, so perhaps they were less fussy about this. Maybe, or maybe not.
What can be picked up from this page is interesting.
The idea that a substitute for Madeleine was being used strikes me as ludicrous, but let's chalk it off on the evidence.
M was in the same group as Ella O'Brien, as the record shows.
Therefore to use a substitute - a substitute has to first be arranged, then disappear. This requires a supplier is in on it. If the M child changes during the week, it requires that Cat B is in on it (but not if the child substitutes for M from Sun to Thu). It requires the substitute child is able to respond to Madeleine or Maddie, and keeps her own name secret. On this particular record, it requires that Ella keeps her gob shut about the fact that the substitute is not M.
It is difficult to discern the afternoon time out for M. Further, I haven't looked to see if there is a record for that day for the twins. But on any day the twins and the substitute took high tea together, the twins had to react to this substitute as if she were M.
I haven't checked the records or statements to see if any of the T7 attended a high tea. If so, they are in on it. Either the substitute was at high tea, which they definitely should have noticed, or the substitute wasn't, in which case they should have wondered why the twins were not accompanied by their sister.
Finally, there is the simple issue of looking after the substitute outside of crèche times. Breakfast, lunch, evenings.
To make the substitute theory fly, you need a massive conspiracy plus some cracking child actors.
What is the probability? 0%, IMO.
Unless I am mistaken, that cuts it down to whether the crèche records were being fiddled or not. Even if a substitute was used for a very short period e.g. just Thu afternoon, then Cat B would have to part of the plot. You don't look after a child from Sun to Thu morning, and not notice a sub has been popped in for one session.
So either M was there, as per crèche records, or the records are false. Sloppiness does not enter the equation.
In the context of this thread I don't believe that a substitute was used and I do believe that Madeleine attended when the sheets say she did. On the day shown, all the children were signed in late. According to Kate McCann that happened the day after, on the 1st following the beach trip. It looks like she mixed up the days.
In the context of the case as a whole I think it's possible that Madeleine left the creche early on 3rd May but was only actually signed out at 5.30pm when the twins were collected.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on March 30, 2016, 01:15:39 PM
In the context of this thread I don't believe that a substitute was used and I do believe that Madeleine attended when the sheets say she did. On the day shown, all the children were signed in late. According to Kate McCann that happened the day after, on the 1st following the beach trip. It looks like she mixed up the days.
In the context of the case as a whole I think it's possible that Madeleine left the creche early on 3rd May but was only actually signed out at 5.30pm when the twins were collected.
Seems that members of the group did quite a lot of that.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2016, 02:02:06 PM
Seems that members of the group did quite a lot of that.
To be fair I'd have trouble saying what I did each day last week. The PJ files were in Kate's possession by the time she wrote her book, however, so she could have checked which day the children went to creche later than usual.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 30, 2016, 04:01:30 PM
It is nearly impossible to remember who and what .....i have just got back fromBbutlins ..[of all places] with a group of family/friends
I actually thought for two days one of my nephews was there ....only to be told he wasn't....i could have sworn i had seen him ...but obviously i just assumed i had...i expected him to be there
it made me think ....it is virtually impossible because you are so busy sorting your own little ones out and planning your day/night you don't really take much notice ..of the others in your party
we only got back yesterday...but some had left the day before....and it still seemed as if we were all together in the reds club .....even though we wasn't ....now looking back ...i don't know who had gone
no way can anyone who did not know maddie ...would have remembered seeing her ....or even those that did know her ....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on March 30, 2016, 09:59:40 PM
I wouldn't be surprised because they seem to me to be an accident waiting to happen. I don't believe the McCanns would go along with it for a minute though. No way would such a reputation conscious couple have agreed to pretend to neglect their children.
Depends who was doing the pressurising and if life long financial security was part of the deal...but yes, I cant see them agreeing to be all over the front pages for years so scrap that one
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on March 30, 2016, 11:40:36 PM
. Kate says he played another game with another guest and she went for a run.
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).
Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.
There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.
Well, they can't be waved away
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2016, 12:05:48 AM
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).
Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.
There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.
Well, they can't be waved away
I don't know where the Achilles tendon rumour originated but another guest said that happened on Sunday or Monday, the day he saw the family at the beach at lunchtime, which I think was Monday when Madeleine and the twins were signed into their creches after 3pm, not Tuesday as Kate said.
Cat Baker didn't remember seeing Gerry at all at Thursday tea, did she?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2016, 12:08:46 AM
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).
Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.
There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.
Well, they can't be waved away
Original Source: TIMES ON LINE: SUN 16 DEC 2007 David James Smith December 16, 2007
Kate and Gerry McCann: Beyond the smears Timesonline
**snip It seems important to make it clear right away that I do not suspect the McCanns harmed Madeleine, nor do I think they disposed of their daughter’s body if, as the PJ believe, she died in an accident that night in their apartment.
This is not a mere prejudice on my part. I have spent a long time considering and examining every unpleasant scenario. The McCanns are not my friends and I have no axe to grind with Portugal, its police or its media.
To me, the McCanns are genuine people in the grip of despair – the accusations against them are ludicrous and a cruel distraction from the search for their daughter. That’s why I put the quotation marks around the word "death" at the top of the article. Madeleine may be dead, it may even be more likely she is dead, but nobody knows for sure. Nobody, not even the PJ, as we will see, can produce any persuasive evidence that she has come to harm.
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).
Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.
There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.
Well, they can't be waved away
YOU were inconsistent with your recollection of what David Payne did when he visited Kate McCann, YOU said he sat down, he didn't, you didn't correct yourself either.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 31, 2016, 10:27:18 AM
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
...
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...
If DJS is accurate, there's an issue. If DJS is not accurate, there isn't an issue.
Unless my index of Mr Hall's video is in error, he does not mention or rely on this, at least this time round.
Technically, the tendon issue is off topic, but if you want to cover it, do you have a copy of the Times article or a link, please?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on March 31, 2016, 10:36:10 AM
YOU were inconsistent with your recollection of what David Payne did when he visited Kate McCann, YOU said he sat down, he didn't, you didn't correct yourself either.
does it matter wether....he sat down or not ....he went in didn't he ..didn't stand out side
those are the discrepancies you should be looking at....made by the people who were there in there statements...
not a post..............
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 31, 2016, 10:37:10 AM
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).
Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.
There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.
Well, they can't be waved away
It's not a case of 'waving away' inconsistencies/contradictions . It's applying common sense and acknowledging that inconsistencies do not automatically mean that deliberate lies are being told by anyone. On the other hand waving away the known fallibility of memory and then claiming that because several people don't have identical memories of any particular event is evidence that a 'conspiracy' must be underway is totally unrealistic IMO.
Fortunately the professionals -i.e. the police - are well aware that although witnesses honestly believe they are relating their recollections of events, it doesn't mean they can be relied on to be accurate. In fact - far from it.
For example (again!)
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
This applies to all witnesses - at all times, including those associated with the McCann case.
You recently claimed that Dr Payne said that he went into 5A, and actually sat down! If that was true it would be a significant discrepancy IMO compared to Kate's description of him standing at the doorway.
I am assuming that you genuinely remembered Dr. Payne saying that he had sat down in 5A when you made that claim. But it isn't true - and therefore would you agree that you got it wrong purely because of the fallibiity of your own memory?
Why anyone would believe that the witnesses associated with the McCann case - for some inexplicable reason don't have the same fallibility as the rest of us when it comes to memory recall - and interpret every discrepancy as evidence that people are lying because they are part of some devious conspiracy - is incomprehensible to me.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 31, 2016, 10:48:01 AM
It's not a case of 'waving away' inconsistencies/contradictions . It's applying common sense and acknowledging that inconsistencies do not automatically mean that deliberate lies are being told by anyone. On the other hand waving away the known fallibility of memory and then claiming that because several people don't have identical memories of any particular event is evidence that a 'conspiracy' must be underway is totally unrealistic IMO.
Fortunately the professionals -i.e. the police - are well aware that although witnesses honestly believe they are relating their recollections of events, it doesn't mean they can be relied on to be accurate. In fact - far from it.
For example (again!)
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
This applies to all witnesses - at all times, including those associated with the McCann case.
You recently claimed that Dr Payne said that he went into 5A, and actually sat down! If that was true it would be a significant discrepancy IMO compared to Kate's description of him standing at the doorway.
I am assuming that you genuinely remembered Dr. Payne saying that he had sat down in 5A when you made that claim. But it isn't true - and therefore would you agree that you got it wrong purely because of the fallibiity of your own memory?
Why anyone would believe that the witnesses associated with the McCann case - for some inexplicable reason don't have the same fallibility as the rest of us when it comes to memory recall - and interpret every discrepancy as evidence that people are lying because they are part of some devious conspiracy - is incomprehensible to me.
That is working on the assumption that the witnesses are telling the truth.
The fact of the matter remains, that this crime, if any remains unsolved, and shows no sign of a resolution.
I do wonder sometimes how many of us will still be on here in years to come debating the intricisies of the case which has gone resoundingly nowhere.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on March 31, 2016, 11:15:47 AM
does it matter wether....he sat down or not ....he went in didn't he ..didn't stand out side
those are the discrepancies you should be looking at....made by the people who were there in there statements...
not a post..............
IMO you have completely missed the point which was not about whether Dr Payne sat down or not - but was about blonk's genuine but mistaken recollection of what Dr Payne had said.
The idea that the same fallibility of memory, (which the police know is a fact of life) - cannot be applied to people in the McCann case makes no sense whatsoever IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2016, 11:28:51 AM
Witnesses see things differently and each puts his/her own interpretation of events. The same incident when segments are seen from different viewpoints will be described as seen but may not necessarily present the full picture.
If a group of people described an incident down to the last detail without deviation and in exactly the same terms someone taking their statements would strongly suspect collusion and rehearsal.
One only has to watch a vox pop after a major incident to see people talking about what happened which seems to us to be in a confusing and contradictory way. They have viewed it as it happened to them.
THE GUARDIAN The Whole Picture
Black and white visuals of a skinhead running down a street, seemingly away from an approaching car towards a woman.
Visuals move to show the same man running past the woman towards a man who turns around and sees the skinhead approaching him and holds his briefcase up in defence.
Visuals change again to show the skinhead running towards the man who is walking beneath a rack of bricks that is about to fall on him.
The skinhead pulls him aside out of harms way.
MVO says an event seen from one point of view gives one impression, seen from another point of view it gives a different point of view, but it's only when you get the whole picture you can fully understand what's going on.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 02, 2016, 02:33:59 AM
Crèche records 1
In the first part of 'When Madeleine Died?', Mr Hall questions whether Madeleine attended High Tea on Thu 3 May, and raises the possibility that the McCanns are lying about this, and/or the crèche records are in error to a serious extent i.e. false.
This conclusion is based on a flawed premise – namely, that parents signed children out (e.g. from the Mini Club), walked their children to the Tapas area, then High Tea was undertaken.
Kate's book says she went for a run that ended at the Tapas area around 5.30pm with Gerry and the 3 children already at High Tea. The crèche records show the McCann children were signed out around then, with Kate signing both forms.
In Mr Hall's version, Gerry signs the 3 children out before High Tea started therefore it should be his signature on both forms. Mr Hall does not address the issue of timing directly, simply relying on one statement that there was conviviality at the High Tea that day, and at least some of the participants seemed to have stayed after 5.30pm.
Mr Hall makes a further odd assumption, albeit minor. On 3rd May, he suggests that Gerry would have taken the long route to get from the Mini Club to the High Tea. At that point in the holiday, the short route had been discovered.
There are 2 options for the short route. Thanks to G-Unit's prodding in another thread, I have some confidence in which alternative was taken, by the McCanns at drop off/pick up times, and by the nannies to get the children to High Tea, and that happens to have importance elsewhere.
The crèche records are at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm
On 3 May, these show Ella O'Brien being signed out at 4.30pm, and she would then go to the beach with the T7, and miss that day's High Tea.
The bottom entry is for William Totman, and I interpret the squiggle in the time signed out as 5.15. Check for yourself. If I'm right, that means he attended High Tea but was one of the first to finish. Cat Baker could not be both at the crèche and at High Tea at 5.15, so if this entry is valid, William took High Tea.
One child, Alexander Mann, was signed out at 5.30pm, as per Madeleine. This suggests to me that the High Tea ended around 5.30pm, and more or less anything that might have gone on afterwards was simply parents socialising, as per Mr Raj Balu's statement.
Mr Hall thinks the records and Kate's book are in such disagreement that one must consider lying and/or forgery.
My opinion is that the records, statements, and Kate's book are in harmony, and that Mr Hall is applying very faulty logic.
One final option is that the crèche records are erroneous or forged to a lesser or greater extent, but this is already a long post, so I will leave that to another day.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 02, 2016, 09:04:05 AM
In the first part of 'When Madeleine Died?', Mr Hall questions whether Madeleine attended High Tea on Thu 3 May, and raises the possibility that the McCanns are lying about this, and/or the crèche records are in error to a serious extent i.e. false.
This conclusion is based on a flawed premise – namely, that parents signed children out (e.g. from the Mini Club), walked their children to the Tapas area, then High Tea was undertaken.
Kate's book says she went for a run that ended at the Tapas area around 5.30pm with Gerry and the 3 children already at High Tea. The crèche records show the McCann children were signed out around then, with Kate signing both forms.
In Mr Hall's version, Gerry signs the 3 children out before High Tea started therefore it should be his signature on both forms. Mr Hall does not address the issue of timing directly, simply relying on one statement that there was conviviality at the High Tea that day, and at least some of the participants seemed to have stayed after 5.30pm.
Mr Hall makes a further odd assumption, albeit minor. On 3rd May, he suggests that Gerry would have taken the long route to get from the Mini Club to the High Tea. At that point in the holiday, the short route had been discovered.
There are 2 options for the short route. Thanks to G-Unit's prodding in another thread, I have some confidence in which alternative was taken, by the McCanns at drop off/pick up times, and by the nannies to get the children to High Tea, and that happens to have importance elsewhere.
The crèche records are at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm
On 3 May, these show Ella O'Brien being signed out at 4.30pm, and she would then go to the beach with the T7, and miss that day's High Tea.
The bottom entry is for William Totman, and I interpret the squiggle in the time signed out as 5.15. Check for yourself. If I'm right, that means he attended High Tea but was one of the first to finish. Cat Baker could not be both at the crèche and at High Tea at 5.15, so if this entry is valid, William took High Tea.
One child, Alexander Mann, was signed out at 5.30pm, as per Madeleine. This suggests to me that the High Tea ended around 5.30pm, and more or less anything that might have gone on afterwards was simply parents socialising, as per Mr Raj Balu's statement.
Mr Hall thinks the records and Kate's book are in such disagreement that one must consider lying and/or forgery.
My opinion is that the records, statements, and Kate's book are in harmony, and that Mr Hall is applying very faulty logic.
One final option is that the crèche records are erroneous or forged to a lesser or greater extent, but this is already a long post, so I will leave that to another day.
This may help with the bolded bit;
at the end of the afternoon session the Nannies would bring them up on a little kind of plastic chain, all the kids would sort of hold onto a thing”. 1578 “Yes”. Reply “And they would walk them through that garden I described on Tuesday and they’d come across the road and go to high tea about five o’clock. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 02, 2016, 12:51:04 PM
IMO you have completely missed the point which was not about whether Dr Payne sat down or not - but was about blonk's genuine but mistaken recollection of what Dr Payne had said.
The idea that the same fallibility of memory, (which the police know is a fact of life) - cannot be applied to people in the McCann case makes no sense whatsoever IMO.
You can't use that in this situation - inside or outside, 30 seconds or 3 minutes or not remembering one wearing a towel only hours before Madeleine was reported to be missing. That is a total contradiction between two witnesses and must be thoroughly investigated.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on April 02, 2016, 02:11:19 PM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm *snipped* (referring to previous statement)
DCF: On Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, it says here that you got on well, that he communicated easily, he was fun, he talked to you about golf which was his favourite sport, that he wanted to improve his tennis during the week. On Sunday or Monday he twisted his ankle, but managed to keep on playing, and on Sunday morning he only played tennis with Kate, that you saw them both playing sport and they passed by you at the bar on the beach and this was Sunday or Monday at about mid day.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on April 02, 2016, 09:26:01 PM
YOU were inconsistent with your recollection of what David Payne did when he visited Kate McCann, YOU said he sat down, he didn't. You didn't correct yourself either.
@ Lace
I'm glad of an opportunity to re-visit the flaming contradictions between the accounts of, respectively, Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann, about an alleged visit claimed to have been made by the former to the latter at about 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May.
Actually, she styled herself Dr Kate Healy at that moment in time. But the next day, after she had reported Madeleine missing, she began to style herself Dr Kate McCann. And now 'Mrs McCann'.
It's interesting that there is no real attempt by McCann-supporters on here to counteract the many blatant contradictions between the two rival accounts of that alleged visit. IIRC Richard Hall enumerated as many as 20 in his first Madeleine McCann film, some more obviously irreconcilable differences than others.
Instead, you've highlighted my claim in an earlier post that Payne 'sat down' on his visit. You are right, he didn't. I mis-remembered that bit. He gave such a detailed account of what he saw and thought about on that visit that I had thought he must have sat down.
But he didn't. If he was ever there at that time, that is.
Looking again at this alleged visit of Dr Payne to G5A, I've had a look again at three relevant statements:
Dr Payne, Rogatory interview
So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back.
Kate McCann, 1st Statement, Friday May 4th, 2007
After this time, they take the children to the "Kids Club" until around 5/5.30pm, the time when the children eat in a bar under the watchful gaze of the parents. After the 5pm dinner, they give the children a bath, prepare them for the night and let them play for a while in a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children are put to bed until the following morning when the described routines start all over again. While the children are at the "Kids Club," the interviewee played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read or went "jogging."
Kate McCann, Thursday May 3rd 2007
Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went to bed at around 7.30. While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't actually enter the flat, he remained at the veranda door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.
After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children..
++++++++++++++++
In these statements, we notice these features:
1. That when first asked to give an account of the events of the evening of 3 May, Kate does not mention any visiit by Dr Payne.
2. I have not included Dr Payne's first interview. Neither does he mention this mythical visit to the McCanns' apartment.
3. When Kate McCann is interviewed on 6 September, this alleged visit is now mentioned for the first time.
4. I am unsure if any witness raised this visit any time before September.
5. Neither of the McCanns, nor Dr Fiona Payne, nor anyone else mentions this visit and the alleged reason for it. It is not mentioned on the McCann group's official neatly typewritten account of the evening's events, handed n on 10 May, which only begins at 8.30pm.
6. When David Payne, after being given a year to think about what to say in his Rogatory interview, gives his rambling statement, he is unable to give many details about what he saw and did - for example, he doesn't say what the children were doing when he saw them, he doesn't mention the fairly remarkable fact that Kate McCann was dressed only in a towel, and so on. But he is crystal clear on one point. He entered the apartment. Kate McCann is equally clear in her account of the incident: he did NOT enter the apartment. These two accounts cannot be reconciled. And that's only one of up to 20 contradictions.
7. The above SIX points, and the TWENTY contradictions between the two of them when they get round to talking about this alleged visit, are entirely consistent with a hypothesis that this alleged visit was invented, perhaps in an attempt to 'prove' that Madeleine had been seen alive by a third party earlier that evening, or perhaps for another reason.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2016, 09:41:15 PM
I use both my married name and my maiden, depending on the circumstances. There is never anything sinister about it.
As for The Towel. Hardly the act of a gentleman to mention it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 02, 2016, 09:45:05 PM
That depends on your point of view, I suppose. My deduction is that either the woman was fully dressed in something unremarkable or the man didn't see her. It depends when the memory is more reliable; the day after the event or 4 months after the event.
Kate McCann 4th May
She took a bath (after 7.30pm)
Kate McCann 6th Sept
Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 02, 2016, 11:16:55 PM
04-Processo 4 Pages 891 to 903 Gerald McCann 10 May 2007
------ During the afternoon of that day the rest of the group members, including the children, were at the beach, [they] having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, to which [entreaty] he did not accede as he had already been plying for about an hour and had to go back to to his wife. Nevertheless, RUSSELL, DAVID and MATHEW stayed to play. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
What the relevance of the towel may be I haven't a clue and I care even less ... but a statement has been made that there was no reference made about Dr Payne's visit to the McCann residence prior to 6 September.
As can be seen above that statement is wrong and possibly libellous.
The visit is recorded in the files 10 May 2007.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 03, 2016, 12:02:16 AM
04-Processo 4 Pages 891 to 903 Gerald McCann 10 May 2007
------ During the afternoon of that day the rest of the group members, including the children, were at the beach, [they] having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw .... ...... next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, to which [entreaty] he did not accede as he had already been plying for about an hour and had to go back to to his wife. Nevertheless, RUSSELL, DAVID and MATHEW stayed to play. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
What the relevance of the towel may be I haven't a clue and I care even less ... but a statement has been made that there was no reference made about Dr Payne's visit to the McCann residence prior to 6 September.
As can be seen above that statement is wrong and possibly libellous.
The visit is recorded in the files 10 May 2007.
Yeah a half an hour visit. We know DP was wearing shorts from the beach cam. So did he need to change into another pair of shorts for tennis 8(>((
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 03, 2016, 01:15:43 AM
Yeah a half an hour visit. We know .... ...... was wearing shorts from the beach cam. So did he need to change into another pair of shorts for tennis 8(>((
I find your constant reference to apparel and towels puzzling. In what way does it add anything to the debate apart from innuendo?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: mercury on April 03, 2016, 01:20:33 AM
Cos the police asked specifically? So in YOUR mind paynes priority was to hide kates non dress rather than tell the truth ok then,
He said he didn't remember. Is there any reason for why he should?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2016, 07:51:37 AM
'Oh, sorry, have I got you out of the shower?' is what many gentlemen (or ladies for that matter) would say.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on April 03, 2016, 08:44:02 AM
I wouldn't describe someone wearing a bath towel as half naked. Far from it. Dr Payne wasn't a stranger - he and Fiona were best friends of the McCanns and he had probably seen far more of Kate's body on the beach and in the pool in the past. If they'd stayed in one another's homes - he may have even have seen her in a bath towel before. She might have seen him in a bath towel before? Who knows?
He'd been a doctor for years and would be quite used to the human form - not some teenage lad who could get excited by the mere idea of the female body and so it would burn into his memory.
Too petty for words IMO.
As a comedian once informed his audience ... '' I'm going to let you into a secret. Underneath these clothes you see me wearing ........ I am stark naked''
Aren't we all? :-)
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on April 03, 2016, 09:24:58 AM
Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.
If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).
Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).
As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...
...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.
There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.
Well, they can't be waved away
Your claim regarding the extent of Gerry's achilles tendon injury is pure speculation.
Quote
Gerry had knocked up at the start of the 4.30pm tennis-drills session, but had decided not to exacerbate an injury to his Achilles tendon, so had dropped out and waited around by the courts until the children came back from the kids’ clubs at 5pm for tea. That had been one of the most enjoyable times of the holiday, all the children together for tea, then the adults playing with them afterwards. Unquote
No mention of it being so bad that he couldn't carry on playing as you claim - but every indication that because he wanted to be sure it was OK to play in the later tennis matches - he decided to give it a precautionary rest. That is what he did - and that is why he was able to play later on. Nothing odd about that whatsoever IMO.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2016, 09:58:23 AM
I wouldn't describe someone wearing a bath towel as half naked. Far from it. Dr Payne wasn't a stranger - he and Fiona were best friends of the McCanns and he had probably seen far more of Kate's body on the beach and in the pool in the past. If they'd stayed in one another's homes - he may have even have seen her in a bath towel before. She might have seen him in a bath towel before? Who knows?
He'd been a doctor for years and would be quite used to the human form - not some teenage lad who could get excited by the mere idea of the female body and so it would burn into his memory.
Too petty for words IMO.
As a comedian once informed his audience ... '' I'm going to let you into a secret. Underneath these clothes you see me wearing ........ I am stark naked''
Aren't we all? :-)
All speculation.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 03, 2016, 10:40:08 AM
there are some bite sized viewing ...for anyone who don't want to trail through the full films ....and bear in mind what R H is trying to do ....show the alternative to abduction ....and as yet no one has stopped him
the evidence presented is all from the official Portuguese police filese (and of course the many conflicts with what the press have reported is evident from the examples of the media articles shown). Any conclusions drawn, after becoming familiar with the facts (as opposed to what appears in the mainstream media), are down to the viewer. In my experience everyone who improves their knowledge of the case by becoming aware of the facts comes to the conclusion that the parents know what happened to their daughter and there remains in place a cover up.
The point, therefore, is that the content of this documentary draws upon facts and it's for the viewer to draw their own conclusions as to which may or may not be relevant to help bring those that caused harm to Madeleine, and progressed any subsequent cover up, are bought to justice.
Note: the author of the documentary actively requests that any errors in presenting the facts are bought to his attention. Speculation is irrelevant... This documentary is about pulling together and presenting facts that can fully and independently corroborated if one so wishes.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on April 03, 2016, 11:10:21 AM
there are some bite sized viewing ...for anyone who don't want to trail through the full films ....and bear in mind what R H is trying to do ....show the alternative to abduction ....and as yet no one has stopped him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oo2-Sj7to
the evidence presented is all from the official Portuguese police filese (and of course the many conflicts with what the press have reported is evident from the examples of the media articles shown). Any conclusions drawn, after becoming familiar with the facts (as opposed to what appears in the mainstream media), are down to the viewer. In my experience everyone who improves their knowledge of the case by becoming aware of the facts comes to the conclusion that the parents know what happened to their daughter and there remains in place a cover up.
The point, therefore, is that the content of this documentary draws upon facts and it's for the viewer to draw their own conclusions as to which may or may not be relevant to help bring those that caused harm to Madeleine, and progressed any subsequent cover up, are bought to justice.
Note: the author of the documentary actively requests that any errors in presenting the facts are bought to his attention. Speculation is irrelevant... This documentary is about pulling together and presenting facts that can fully and independently corroborated if one so wishes.
If one is going to make a video and also tour giving lecturers, you would expect the FACTS to have been investigated fully and not for there to be any ERRORS presenting such FACTS.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 03, 2016, 11:15:13 AM
I find your constant reference to apparel and towels puzzling. In what way does it add anything to the debate apart from innuendo?
It does when she doesn't know what time she took a shower. It was a different time on 4 May 2007. If I go for a run and get back to the house I would get a shower straight away being sweaty before my partner left again at 6pm. Who was looking after the kids when she was in the shower at 6:30?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2016, 11:19:35 AM
Your claim regarding the extent of Gerry's achilles tendon injury is pure speculation.
Quote
Gerry had knocked up at the start of the 4.30pm tennis-drills session, but had decided not to exacerbate an injury to his Achilles tendon, so had dropped out and waited around by the courts until the children came back from the kids’ clubs at 5pm for tea. That had been one of the most enjoyable times of the holiday, all the children together for tea, then the adults playing with them afterwards. Unquote
No mention of it being so bad that he couldn't carry on playing as you claim - but every indication that because he wanted to be sure it was OK to play in the later tennis matches - he decided to give it a precautionary rest. That is what he did - and that is why he was able to play later on. Nothing odd about that whatsoever IMO.
There's only one mention of Gerry hurting himself in the witness statements and it didn't happen on 3rd. Kate says he played another guest after 4.30pm and she went running. Cat the nanny didn't see him and assumed he was playing tennis. Apart from a journalist's article there are no indications that Gerry's tendon was bothering him on 3rd May.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on April 03, 2016, 11:20:43 AM
I'm glad of an opportunity to re-visit the flaming contradictions between the accounts of, respectively, Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann, about an alleged visit claimed to have been made by the former to the latter at about 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May.
Actually, she styled herself Dr Kate Healy at that moment in time. But the next day, after she had reported Madeleine missing, she began to style herself Dr Kate McCann. And now 'Mrs McCann'.
It's interesting that there is no real attempt by McCann-supporters on here to counteract the many blatant contradictions between the two rival accounts of that alleged visit. IIRC Richard Hall enumerated as many as 20 in his first Madeleine McCann film, some more obviously irreconcilable differences than others.
Instead, you've highlighted my claim in an earlier post that Payne 'sat down' on his visit. You are right, he didn't. I mis-remembered that bit. He gave such a detailed account of what he saw and thought about on that visit that I had thought he must have sat down.
But he didn't. If he was ever there at that time, that is.
Looking again at this alleged visit of Dr Payne to G5A, I've had a look again at three relevant statements:
Dr Payne, Rogatory interview
So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back.
Kate McCann, 1st Statement, Friday May 4th, 2007
After this time, they take the children to the "Kids Club" until around 5/5.30pm, the time when the children eat in a bar under the watchful gaze of the parents. After the 5pm dinner, they give the children a bath, prepare them for the night and let them play for a while in a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children are put to bed until the following morning when the described routines start all over again. While the children are at the "Kids Club," the interviewee played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read or went "jogging."
Kate McCann, Thursday May 3rd 2007
Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went to bed at around 7.30. While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't actually enter the flat, he remained at the veranda door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.
After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children..
++++++++++++++++
In these statements, we notice these features:
1. That when first asked to give an account of the events of the evening of 3 May, Kate does not mention any visiit by Dr Payne.
2. I have not included Dr Payne's first interview. Neither does he mention this mythical visit to the McCanns' apartment.
3. When Kate McCann is interviewed on 6 September, this alleged visit is now mentioned for the first time.
4. I am unsure if any witness raised this visit any time before September.
5. Neither of the McCanns, nor Dr Fiona Payne, nor anyone else mentions this visit and the alleged reason for it. It is not mentioned on the McCann group's official neatly typewritten account of the evening's events, handed n on 10 May, which only begins at 8.30pm.
6. When David Payne, after being given a year to think about what to say in his Rogatory interview, gives his rambling statement, he is unable to give many details about what he saw and did - for example, he doesn't say what the children were doing when he saw them, he doesn't mention the fairly remarkable fact that Kate McCann was dressed only in a towel, and so on. But he is crystal clear on one point. He entered the apartment. Kate McCann is equally clear in her account of the incident: he did NOT enter the apartment. These two accounts cannot be reconciled. And that's only one of up to 20 contradictions.
7. The above SIX points, and the TWENTY contradictions between the two of them when they get round to talking about this alleged visit, are entirely consistent with a hypothesis that this alleged visit was invented, perhaps in an attempt to 'prove' that Madeleine had been seen alive by a third party earlier that evening, or perhaps for another reason.
Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies, it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?
Why should he remember what the children were doing? he remembers they were dressed for bed. He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment, Kate says he didn't enter, so maybe 'entering' as such would be to walk into the room, this is petty.
Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews, it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing, it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.
All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2016, 12:14:00 PM
Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies, it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?
Why should he remember what the children were doing? he remembers they were dressed for bed. He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment, Kate says he didn't enter, so maybe 'entering' as such would be to walk into the room, this is petty.
Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews, it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing, it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.
All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.
The inconsistencies are facts, whatever your opinion of why they arose or whether they are significant. There is no factual basis whatsoever for the abduction theory, but some people will happily speculate for hours about the who, what, why and when of it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on April 03, 2016, 12:26:41 PM
Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies, it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?
Why should he remember what the children were doing? he remembers they were dressed for bed. He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment, Kate says he didn't enter, so maybe 'entering' as such would be to walk into the room, this is petty.
Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews, it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing, it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.
All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.
If the whole episode was fabricated by the McCanns and Dr. Payne, then wouldn't you expect them to at least decide on what they were going to tell the police about whether he entered 5A or not - and the exact time he spent there?
IMO it would have easier for both to say he walked in and sat down - where he observed Kate with the 3 children eating snacks - and he stayed for around 4/5 mins. But it seems they hadn't even got the intelligence to sort those simple points out between them.
But there again - what do you expect from people who - having decided to claim they found the windows/shutters open -( as evidence of the existence of an intruder to the police ) - they then went and closed the shutters/windows BEFORE the police arrived - and didn't even have the brains to get one or more of their friends to say THEY had also seen the open shutters/windows.
Either they were all so thick they practically bordered on feebleminded - or their accounts are their own truthful recollections of what happened - which fortunately (unlike some sceptics) - professional policemen do not expect to be carbon copies of other people's accounts of the same situation.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 03, 2016, 01:10:16 PM
Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies, it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?
Why should he remember what the children were doing? he remembers they were dressed for bed. He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment, Kate says he didn't enter, so maybe 'entering' as such would be to walk into the room, this is petty.
Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews, it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing, it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.
All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.
no i think he remembers a bit more ...than they were just ready for bed....why does he go into so much detail....about ......how happy they all were ...looking like angels ...etc etc...it is as if he was expectig something was wrong ....
i wouldn't say the inconsistencies was nit picking either ....especially as ....
An interesting detail, which is revealed in these documents: all the English people, before and after the questioning, were given not only a copy of their preceding statements, but also a copy of the statements that had been made by the other members of the group.
had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little,
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2016, 01:57:00 PM
If the whole episode was fabricated by the McCanns and Dr. Payne, then wouldn't you expect them to at least decide on what they were going to tell the police about whether he entered 5A or not - and the exact time he spent there?
IMO it would have easier for both to say he walked in and sat down - where he observed Kate with the 3 children eating snacks - and he stayed for around 4/5 mins. But it seems they hadn't even got the intelligence to sort those simple points out between them.
But there again - what do you expect from people who - having decided to claim they found the windows/shutters open -( as evidence of the existence of an intruder to the police ) - they then went and closed the shutters/windows BEFORE the police arrived - and didn't even have the brains to get one or more of their friends to say THEY had also seen the open shutters/windows.
Either they were all so thick they practically bordered on feebleminded - or their accounts are their own truthful recollections of what happened - which fortunately (unlike some sceptics) - professional policemen do not expect to be carbon copies of other people's accounts of the same situation.
The first time this visit is mentioned is by Gerry McCann on 10th May. He also mentions another visit which has been completely denied by all the rest of the group, who all agreed that David Payne never checked his own children let alone anyone else's;
On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that DP also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on April 03, 2016, 03:06:23 PM
I wouldn't describe someone wearing a bath towel as half naked. Far from it. Dr Payne wasn't a stranger - he and Fiona were best friends of the McCanns and he had probably seen far more of Kate's body on the beach and in the pool in the past...
Too petty for words IMO.
Kate McCann has absolutely insisted that she was having a shower at about 6.30pm when Dr David Payne knocked at the door. It is certainly unusual for a mother to take a shower while three infants under 4 have the run of an apartment. Kate wants us to accept the 6.30pm shower as FACT.
If it is, then WHY did she take a second shower at about 7.30pm? It's referred to in later statements, and in his 'fullest and most truthful account yet' of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, David James Smith (Times, 16 Dec 2007) wrote:
QUOTE
“Gerry was in his apartment – Apartment 5a on the ground floor of Block 5 of the Waterside Village Gardens at the Ocean Club – at 7pm. He had a glass of water, then a beer, while the children sat with Kate on the couch having stories with a snack. The children were clearly shattered – the last thing any of them needed was a sedative and, anyway, it was not something the McCanns ever did. They put them to bed after a last story. The twins were asleep virtually the moment they lay down, Madeleine not far behind them. The three children were asleep in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and, beyond it, the street. Madeleine was in the single bed nearest the door. There was an empty bed against the opposite wall, beneath the window. Between the two beds were two travel cots containing the twins: Sean and Amelie.
These days it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars. At about 7.30pm, Kate and Gerry showered and changed and sat down just after 8pm to have a quiet glass of the Montana sauvignon blanc that Gerry had bought at the Baptista supermarket...
Did Kate really have a shower at 6.30pm and then another one at 7.30pm?
Or is that another question that is 'too petty for words', Benice?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on April 03, 2016, 03:27:54 PM
Kate McCann has absolutely insisted that she was having a shower at about 6.30pm when Dr David Payne knocked at the door. It is certainly unusual for a mother to take a shower while three infants under 4 have the run of an apartment. Kate wants us to accept the 6.30pm shower as FACT.
If it is, then WHY did she take a second shower at about 7.30pm? It's referred to in later statements, and in his 'fullest and most truthful account yet' of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, David James Smith (Times, 16 Dec 2007) wrote:
QUOTE
“Gerry was in his apartment – Apartment 5a on the ground floor of Block 5 of the Waterside Village Gardens at the Ocean Club – at 7pm. He had a glass of water, then a beer, while the children sat with Kate on the couch having stories with a snack. The children were clearly shattered – the last thing any of them needed was a sedative and, anyway, it was not something the McCanns ever did. They put them to bed after a last story. The twins were asleep virtually the moment they lay down, Madeleine not far behind them. The three children were asleep in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and, beyond it, the street. Madeleine was in the single bed nearest the door. There was an empty bed against the opposite wall, beneath the window. Between the two beds were two travel cots containing the twins: Sean and Amelie.
These days it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars. At about 7.30pm, Kate and Gerry showered and changed and sat down just after 8pm to have a quiet glass of the Montana sauvignon blanc that Gerry had bought at the Baptista supermarket...
Did Kate really have a shower at 6.30pm and then another one at 7.30pm?
Or is that another question that is 'too petty for words', Benice?
It is definitely too petty for words.
In one of the statements I believe Kate's it is stated that they both had a bath.
In one of Gerry's he says he had a bath and he believed Kate had already done so.
So which is it? They both had showers? They both had baths? or did Gerry just have a bath as Kate had already had a shower?
It's the translation for goodness sake.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2016, 04:49:48 PM
The translation, the excuse for everything. @)(++(*
So what would you suggest? That in one statement they say they both had a shower, in another they both had a bath but in another Gerry had a bath and he believed Kate had one earlier?
Which one I go for the last one but it was a shower.
Do you honestly believe they would say something different every time?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on April 03, 2016, 05:08:41 PM
So what would you suggest? That in one statement they say they both had a shower, in another they both had a bath but in another Gerry had a bath and he believed Kate had one earlier?
Which one I go for the last one but it was a shower.
Do you honestly believe they would say something different every time?
Yes. Remember, confusion is good 8(0(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 03, 2016, 06:07:24 PM
So what would you suggest? That in one statement they say they both had a shower, in another they both had a bath but in another Gerry had a bath and he believed Kate had one earlier?
Which one I go for the last one but it was a shower.
Do you honestly believe they would say something different every time?
Only one person changed their story.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 04, 2016, 01:47:03 PM
Further more, it was probably entered onto thuis forum as subject to discuss, not for the discussion itself, but to advertise and promote it to people that would not normally have bothered with it
It is a PROMOTION SCAM folks !
And we by discussing it ... are further promoting what imo and in the opinion of others is Libel ... because people like reading a good argument.
If there is any chance this is libel, and it is thought that there is, it should NOT be screened on this forum . The thread should be wiped in its entirity... immediately.
Of course the forum is pretty safe from libel because it is run from another country ... were you all aware of that?
The thread should be wiped in its entirity... immediately.
god you almost sound like a dictator...........thankfully some of us wont be dictated too
how militant is this post .....why do you continually dis's ...everything to do with a non abduction ....especially when you don't know for sure there was one...
the only reason this subject was brought up was because it is in the public domain
R H doesn't need promoting ....he does a good job of that for himself .....and not for money ...but to show people like you for what you are...your happy to promote abduction ...but nothing else ....
i think there is only one promotional scam .....an i don't have to tell you what it is ....
as for libel ....how long has he been around ....disputing the abduction .....and showing ...why
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on April 04, 2016, 02:35:34 PM
Enough of the Insults on this Thread as well.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on April 04, 2016, 02:43:47 PM
The thread should be wiped in its entirity... immediately.
god you almost sound like a dictator...........thankfully some of us wont be dictated too
how militant is this post .....why do you continually dis's ...everything to do with a non abduction ....especially when you don't know for sure there was one...
the only reason this subject was brought up was because it is in the public domain
R H doesn't need promoting ....he does a good job of that for himself .....and not for money ...but to show people like you for what you are...your happy to promote abduction ...but nothing else ....
i think there is only one promotional scam .....an i don't have to tell you what it is ....
as for libel ....how long has he been around ....disputing the abduction .....and showing ...why
Dictators are not, always, wrong.
And sometimes people without the powers of a dictator make assertions of plain common sense.
To give Richard Hall's video airspace on this board reflects discredit on it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on April 04, 2016, 02:51:58 PM
And sometimes people without the powers of a dictator make assertions of plain common sense.
To give Richard Hall's video airspace on this board reflects discredit on it.
with all due respect................why do you keep posting on it then 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 04, 2016, 03:24:57 PM
"It's just common sense" or "It's just plain common sense"
Do either actually exist?
"But here's the catch. Common sense is neither common nor sense. There's not a whole of sound judgment going on these days (though whether it is worse than in the past, I can't be sure), so it's not common. If common sense was common, then most people wouldn't make the kinds of decisions they do every day. People wouldn't buy stuff they can't afford. They wouldn't smoke cigarettes or eat junk food. They wouldn't gamble. And if you want to get really specific and timely, politicians wouldn't be tweeting pictures of their private parts to strangers. In other words, people wouldn't do the multitude of things that are clearly not good for them".
"It's just common sense" or "It's just plain common sense"
Do either actually exist?
"But here's the catch. Common sense is neither common nor sense. There's not a whole of sound judgment going on these days (though whether it is worse than in the past, I can't be sure), so it's not common. If common sense was common, then most people wouldn't make the kinds of decisions they do every day. People wouldn't buy stuff they can't afford. They wouldn't smoke cigarettes or eat junk food. They wouldn't gamble. And if you want to get really specific and timely, politicians wouldn't be tweeting pictures of their private parts to strangers. In other words, people wouldn't do the multitude of things that are clearly not good for them".
Selective quotes by someone who must not be named managed to change "the only assumption" into only an "assumption"....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 04, 2016, 05:05:46 PM
I confess that I haven't read the whole of this thread.
The idea that Faro weather, which is to 40 km to the East of PdL when the weather was coming in from the West, should be taken as some sort of verifiable data is beyond me. Particularly when land-based weather data based in Sagres (10-12 km to the West of PdL) gave very different weather data - a sunny day.
There is, of course, no proof that Sagres data (10-12 km away) is accurate in terms of PdL on the Thursday, but - IMO - it does seem to be more likely than Faro data (40km away) based on weather fronts from the West.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 04, 2016, 05:34:02 PM
I confess that I haven't read the whole of this thread.
The idea that Faro weather, which is to 40 km to the East of PdL when the weather was coming in from the West, should be taken as some sort of verifiable data is beyond me. Particularly when land-based weather data based in Sagres (10-12 km to the West of PdL) gave very different weather data - a sunny day.
There is, of course, no proof that Sagres data (10-12 km away) is accurate in terms of PdL on the Thursday, but - IMO - it does seem to be more likely than Faro data (40km away) based on weather fronts from the West.
i think you will find the weather was based on lagos/luz.not faro
Personally I like the way that Richard D Hall has given the facts but didn't fall into the trap of insinuating that he knows more than he does nor has he tried to inflate himself......
He's saying ....here's the facts make your own mind up. And it's that which may help guide others to search for the truth.
focused only on pulling together facts that are in the public domain in the way that he does so very well.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 05, 2016, 10:19:09 AM
Personally I like the way that Richard D Hall has given the facts but didn't fall into the trap of insinuating that he knows more than he does nor has he tried to inflate himself......
He's saying ....here's the facts make your own mind up. And it's that which may help guide others to search for the truth.
focused only on pulling together facts that are in the public domain in the way that he does so very well.
There is no indication of the location on that weather chart (it could have been taken on the moon for all anyone knows). Is there any particular reason why not?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 05, 2016, 10:59:22 AM
There is no indication of the location on that weather chart (it could have been taken on the moon for all anyone knows). Is there any particular reason why not?
if you look 12 04.........into the film ...there is a indication where the weather was took from...and it is not faro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
could be taken on the moon you say .....there is info where it was took Lagos/Luz ....if you don't want to believe it fine ...have you anything ....to disprove it ...or to prove it not true
apart from the moon that is .... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: blonk on April 05, 2016, 11:46:23 AM
Selective quotes by someone who must not be named managed to change "the only assumption" into only an "assumption"....
Come, come, Carana, 'someone who must not be named'? I'm hardly anonymous on here, am I? - unlike almost everybody else on this forum.
But actually I'm glad you've brought up this long-standing misrepresentation of a comment I made many years ago. It was in a discussion about Madeleine while Clarence Mitchell was being interviewed by his old friend Peter Levy on Radio Humberside (promoting Kate McCann's forthcoming 'very truthful' book).
I've never been shy about quoting Clarence's actual words - the entire transcript is available on CMOMM, but I'm still not sure if Admin allows me to post links there as a previous one I put up was deleted. But here's the relevant extract:
QUOTE
CLARENCE MITCHELL: Kate and Gerry know Mad…, know their daughter well enough to know that she didn’t wander out of the apartment as has often been speculated. The only assumption that they can make is that somebody took her out of the apartment. That is the working hypothesis on which the private investigation is also based...
UNQUOTE
In a later discussion about this interview, I pointed out that Clarence Mitchell's comments showed that even in the McCann camp, the idea of Madeleine being abducted was NOT a fact, but 'only' an assumption, 'only' a working hypothesis.
I was correct, wasn't I?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2016, 01:48:58 PM
It would seem that different stories were told to different people.
Alex Woolfall said;
Mr Woolfall says that he heard no suggestion in the early days that the girl had been snatched. "Certainly I did not hear any discussion that this could be a paedophile or an aggravated robbery. All the time I was around it was whether she could have wandered off and had an accident or somebody had actually taken her in, perhaps not with ill-intent.
"During the first 48 hours the word being used was 'missing' rather than 'abducted' or any link with a paedophile or any sort of crime. Towards the end of the second week I detected a shift towards there being a consciousness that she had probably been taken rather than wandered off, just on the assumption that anybody would have found her by now." 06 October 2007 Timesonline. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id65.html
Kate McCann;
"But I knew she wouldn't walk out anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken." 05 August 2007 Sunday Mirror http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
It was Gerry telling me that Madeleine had been taken.......he had spoken to the local police but they were not taking the situation seriously. I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later. It was so frustrating, Madeleine did not do things like that, she was not that kind of girl. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 05, 2016, 04:12:25 PM
It would seem that different stories were told to different people.
Alex Woolfall said;
Mr Woolfall says that he heard no suggestion in the early days that the girl had been snatched. "Certainly I did not hear any discussion that this could be a paedophile or an aggravated robbery. All the time I was around it was whether she could have wandered off and had an accident or somebody had actually taken her in, perhaps not with ill-intent.
"During the first 48 hours the word being used was 'missing' rather than 'abducted' or any link with a paedophile or any sort of crime. Towards the end of the second week I detected a shift towards there being a consciousness that she had probably been taken rather than wandered off, just on the assumption that anybody would have found her by now." 06 October 2007 Timesonline. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id65.html
Kate McCann;
"But I knew she wouldn't walk out anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken." 05 August 2007 Sunday Mirror http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
It was Gerry telling me that Madeleine had been taken.......he had spoken to the local police but they were not taking the situation seriously. I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later. It was so frustrating, Madeleine did not do things like that, she was not that kind of girl. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm
Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
I wonder what KG thinks of that statement.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 05, 2016, 04:54:18 PM
Come, come, Carana, 'someone who must not be named'? I'm hardly anonymous on here, am I? - unlike almost everybody else on this forum.
But actually I'm glad you've brought up this long-standing misrepresentation of a comment I made many years ago. It was in a discussion about Madeleine while Clarence Mitchell was being interviewed by his old friend Peter Levy on Radio Humberside (promoting Kate McCann's forthcoming 'very truthful' book).
I've never been shy about quoting Clarence's actual words - the entire transcript is available on CMOMM, but I'm still not sure if Admin allows me to post links there as a previous one I put up was deleted. But here's the relevant extract:
QUOTE
CLARENCE MITCHELL: Kate and Gerry know Mad…, know their daughter well enough to know that she didn’t wander out of the apartment as has often been speculated. The only assumption that they can make is that somebody took her out of the apartment. That is the working hypothesis on which the private investigation is also based...
UNQUOTE
In a later discussion about this interview, I pointed out that Clarence Mitchell's comments showed that even in the McCann camp, the idea of Madeleine being abducted was NOT a fact, but 'only' an assumption, 'only' a working hypothesis.
I was correct, wasn't I?
There is a difference between "the only assumption that they can make is..." and then changing it to state that what he'd said was that it was "only" an "assumption".
The first is exclusive, the second implies one amongst several others. Why didn't you simply keep his original quote?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2016, 07:11:18 PM
Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
I wonder what KG thinks of that statement.
It was obvious what she thought from the beginning. I was wondering why, having their own English-speaking media spokesman, they didn't use him to publicise the abduction. Why, in fact, they appear to have avoided telling him what they were so sure of from the moment they found Madeleine gone. How peculiar.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 05, 2016, 08:33:30 PM
Madeleine – faked crèche records
What does it take to bypass High Tea at the Tapas area on 3 May 2007, assuming High Tea took place that day, but Madeleine did not attend?
Quite a bit, actually.
The crèche record for the afternoon of 3 May shows just 4 children in Cat Baker's group, which a missing Madeleine would have cut to just 3.
Two children were signed in at 14.30, one being Ella O'Brien. Madeleine was signed in by Kate at 14.50, bringing Cat's group to 3. Then a 4th child was signed in at 15.30, bringing the total to 4.
That 4th child entry is one of the more suspicious ones in the crèche register, leaving open the possibility that it is false That in turn would open up another possibility that Kate's entry was simply tacked on, with Madeleine nowhere to be seen.
Ella O'Brien was the first to be signed out, at 16.30, for her trip to the beach and the Paraíso restaurant. That took Cat's group down to 3 if Madeleine was in the crèche, 2 if Madeleine was not, and just 1 if the final entry was also faked. The difference between these options is quite noticeable.
The checkout timing of the 3 children left after Ella departed suggests they were all at High Tea, together with Cat. What are the alternatives?
Alternative 1. Madeleine was picked up by Kate at 17.30, by Kate, but did not attend High Tea. This is barely interesting. For some reason, Cat is lying and Kate is lying, but the key thing is Madeleine was alive at 5.30pm on 3 May.
Alternative 2. The McCanns were sneaking in and out of the Mini Club, risking entering false records, without putting Madeleine in the crèche. Cat simply never noticed. And when Kate says Madeleine was signed in at the same time as Ella, Russell or Jane did not notice.
Alternative 3. Cat Baker is in on it, either forging entries or accepting false entries that Madeleine attended the crèche when she did not. Mr Hall does not explain why Cat Baker might be in on it, other than she visited Rothley after the incident, and might have a tenuous Facebook connection. Personally, I would need a lot more than this if risking falling foul of Portuguese law by being involved in some sort of cover up for death and disposal of a body.
As Alice P. pointed out, the wheels on Mr Hall´s bus come off if Madeleine was alive, with a bonus if she was at High Tea that day.
IMO, the High Tea occurred, and Madeleine attended. Anyone who wishes to assert otherwise is going to have to do better homework than Mr Hall.
There is no point in winding the clock back before 17.30 on 3 May 2007. No need to consider the Last Photo or the Tennis Balls photo.
As to whether Madeleine's High Tea went the way described by Kate, who knows. The High Tea took place. Madeleine attended.
Mr Hall's video is based on mistake after mistake.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on April 05, 2016, 08:45:05 PM
Mr. Hall doesn't do his own research. He relies on the mistakes of others.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on April 05, 2016, 08:58:07 PM
i put a link up a few pages back ...for bite size clips ..but it was the four hour one ...the one below is the one showing the bite size ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwv_UhqoI60
I'm sure people can make there own minds up on what they believe and what they don't believe ...what we should know at the beginning of this case[a very inportant time] ....because of what was fresh and said as it was ...there was a pattern showing ....discrepancies were being found ...were they should not be
GA picked up on this and so did many others....but unfortunately got rid of one by one
British diplomat warned Foreign Office of concerns over McCanns Last updated at 10:18 03 December 2007
The Foreign Office was alerted to fears over Gerry and Kate McCann by a British diplomat in Portugal just days after their daughter Madeleine went missing. The diplomat was sent to the holiday resort of Praia da Luz in the days following the four-year-old's disappearance and soon became concerned over "inconsistencies" in the testimonies by her parents and their friends. After visiting the McCanns, the unnamed diplomat sent a report to the Foreign Office in London, admitting his worries about "confused declarations" of the McCanns' movements on the night of May 3. Scroll down for more...
nothing ever is ....or ever has been straight forward in this case.....the only thing shown for sure ...is there is no evidence whatsoever ...of an abduction...............even 17 million pounds cant buy that
you either buy the mccs version of events............ or you don't
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 06, 2016, 02:41:01 PM
i put a link up a few pages back ...for bite size clips ..but it was the four hour one ...the one below is the one showing the bite size ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwv_UhqoI60
I'm sure people can make there own minds up on what they believe and what they don't believe ...what we should know at the beginning of this case[a very inportant time] ....because of what was fresh and said as it was ...there was a pattern showing ....discrepancies were being found ...were they should not be
GA picked up on this and so did many others....but unfortunately got rid of one by one
British diplomat warned Foreign Office of concerns over McCanns Last updated at 10:18 03 December 2007
The Foreign Office was alerted to fears over Gerry and Kate McCann by a British diplomat in Portugal just days after their daughter Madeleine went missing. The diplomat was sent to the holiday resort of Praia da Luz in the days following the four-year-old's disappearance and soon became concerned over "inconsistencies" in the testimonies by her parents and their friends. After visiting the McCanns, the unnamed diplomat sent a report to the Foreign Office in London, admitting his worries about "confused declarations" of the McCanns' movements on the night of May 3. Scroll down for more...
nothing ever is ....or ever has been straight forward in this case.....the only thing shown for sure ...is there is no evidence whatsoever ...of an abduction...............even 17 million pounds cant buy that
you either buy the mccs version of events............ or you don't
This anonymous diplomat whose report was apparently leaked to a newspaper.
The newspaper was La Derniere Heure.
The journalists were Duarte Levy and Paolo Reis.
Do those names ring any bells?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 06, 2016, 02:50:57 PM
This anonymous diplomat whose report was apparently leaked to a newspaper.
The newspaper was La Derniere Heure.
The journalists were Duarte Levy and Paolo Reis.
Do those names ring any bells?
as i said............. 8**8:/:
nothing ever is ....or ever has been straight forward in this case.....the only thing shown for sure ...is there is no evidence whatsoever ...of an abduction...............even 17 million pounds cant buy that
you either buy the mccs version of events............ or you don't
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 06, 2016, 02:58:37 PM
nothing ever is ....or ever has been straight forward in this case.....the only thing shown for sure ...is there is no evidence whatsoever ...of an abduction...............even 17 million pounds cant buy that
you either buy the mccs version of events............ or you don't
You are right that there is nothing straightforward. But one name crops up again and again and again.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id71.html
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 06, 2016, 03:04:04 PM
if you look 12 04.........into the film ...there is a indication where the weather was took from...and it is not faro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUPm35D-X3o
could be taken on the moon you say .....there is info where it was took Lagos/Luz ....if you don't want to believe it fine ...have you anything ....to disprove it ...or to prove it not true
apart from the moon that is .... @)(++(*
Sorry, I can't find any independent confirmation of where that weather chart was supposed to have been located.
Here are the reasons why I'm questioning this.
1. Sagres versus Faro:
Sagres is on the (exposed) western tip of the Algarve and Faro is 2/3 to the east towards Spain. PdL is in a little cove around 10-12 km from Sagres, whereas it is around 40 km to the west of Faro.
If you look at satellite images, the Atlantic weather fronts cross broadly from west to east at this time of year at least, sometimes from a slightly more northerly direction, sometimes from a more southerly one.
On the alleged point that Kate had said that the day was cool and wished she'd taken a cardigan for Madeleine - yes, you can sit in a sheltered spot in spring or autumn and feel warm, then walk in a shaded area and feel a cold breeze.
3. Back to that weather chart.
It has NO visible specified location or source. It could literally have come from anywhere. The snapshots are identical to those on Havern's forum, but AFAIK, there is still no source attributed to the chart itself.
OK, I'll set that aside for the moment.
4. Onto the "analysis" in that video:
Cloud cover versus temperature:
"On the Thursday there was about 50% cloud cover from dawn, rising to nearly 100% cloud cover by the early afternoon." @10:15-40 ish.
The vertical lines in that chart separate the days. The high cloud cover in that chart is towards the right-hand side of that 24-hour period, therefore it can't represent early afternoon - it's latish evening. That chart shows the maximum temperature as 19, and right above the high cloud cover. That might seem odd, but it would be consistent with cloud cover sealing in the day's progressive warmth.
Then...
"... The temperature chart shows us that the temperature on Thursday rose from a cool 13 degrees C (55 degrees Fahrenheit) in the morning, to just 17 degrees C (63 degrees Fahrenheit) around mid-day, when the photo was supposed to have been taken."
So... let's stop there for a minute. If the time of the cloud cover is meant to correspond vertically to the time of the temperature, the cloud cover was only 50% when the temperature was around 17°C "around mid-day".
I have already posted a link to a Sagres weather chart for that day showing that there were approximately 11.5 hours of sunshine that day. I'll add it here, when I find it again.
Wind direction:
Then, have a look at the wind direction on that chart. It started off as coming from the West and moves to WSW during the day, and very late evening /overnight drops to WNS, which is consistent with Faro.
Faro 2:00 PM 18.0 °C WSW 25.9 km/h / 7.2 m/s Scattered Clouds
Wind speed: Faro was indeed a Force 4 at 2pm, whereas in Sagres, it was a very mild breeze at 1pm, becoming stronger by 4pm.
Note: Beaufort scale: 4 Moderate breeze 20–28 km/h. Small waves with breaking crests. Fairly frequent whitecaps. Dust and loose paper raised. Small branches begin to move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale
Although there can be variations even a few kms away, the Sagres charts coincide far more closely to the weather in the "last photo" in PdL than to Faro.
Moving on...
5. Photos depicting Algarve weather:
"One well-respected Madeleine McCann researcher, a retired former police superintendant, has collected dated photographs to show exactly how the weather changed on the Monday of that week..."
Fine, but the photos (aside from one which is apparently from "near Lagos" during the sunny previous weekend), don't state where the ones taken later in the week were taken. The one that supposedly illustrates 3 May appears to be inland... somewhere.
6: Local former RAF ex-pat diary:
Then, the narration moves on to an ... "... ex-RAF man, now an ex-pat living in Praia da Luz, kept daily weather records. His diary confirms the cloudier, windy, cooler conditions that prevailed on that Thursday, when the last photo was supposed to have been taken." (up to @13:30 ish).
Hmm.
I can find no indication that this ex-pat was examining a PdL weather chart (as the source chart for Hall's video comes from Havern's, with no original source).
There is, however, an extract from his alleged diary (for which I can find no online source either that doesn't originate from... Havern's, yet again).
So, let's see.
The only trace that I can find is of a former UK police officer quoting the ex-pat RAF chap as saying, supposedly concerning the evening of 3 May (although as the source hasn't been provided, that's not clear either): "I arrived at my apartment about 1145pm. It was a clear dry moonlit night and no sound of human or vehicular activity, and it was good to reflect that better weather had now set in."
Where was he during that day? Where was this apartment? In PdL or somewehere else? Did he seriously arrive back in PdL on 3 May at around 1145pm to "no sound of human or vehicular activity" just as the whole of PdL was out and about searching for a missing child ??
This also appears to have been attributed to this former RAF ex-pat:
However of much greater import - is the wind speed and cloud factor. At 1400 on 3 May, wind speed is recorded as force 4 with a still air temperature of 17 C. Although the pool area is to some extent sheltered, with the westerly direction component the wind would be markedly chilly with a chill factor pulling the temp down to as low as 15C - definitely not suitable for scantily clad pool activity.
That description corresponds more to Faro, as opposed to Sagres.
From a different thread, the alleged former UK policeman answers, in response to a question about weather data from Faro:
"Yes, I know it is Faro airport, but that is only a few km up the road."
No, it's not, it's 40 km to the east.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 01:39:57 PM
Then... some chap on YouTube (Darren) asserts that the "last photo" wasn't photoshopped, but that the EXIF data had been tampered with. Based on what? That the weather didn't correspond to what he was told with respect to the location?
Did this chap ever check out the weather data for himself? Or did he simply accept what he was provided with as "research"?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 01:50:32 PM
Then... The fact that this chap only got back to his apartment (wherever that was) at 11.45 pm to no noise appears to have been edited out. Why?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 07, 2016, 02:05:49 PM
Sorry, I can't find any independent confirmation of where that weather chart was supposed to have been located.
Here are the reasons why I'm questioning this.
1. Sagres versus Faro:
Sagres is on the (exposed) western tip of the Algarve and Faro is 2/3 to the east towards Spain. PdL is in a little cove around 10-12 km from Sagres, whereas it is around 40 km to the west of Faro.
If you look at satellite images, the Atlantic weather fronts cross broadly from west to east at this time of year at least, sometimes from a slightly more northerly direction, sometimes from a more southerly one.
On the alleged point that Kate had said that the day was cool and wished she'd taken a cardigan for Madeleine - yes, you can sit in a sheltered spot in spring or autumn and feel warm, then walk in a shaded area and feel a cold breeze.
3. Back to that weather chart.
It has NO visible specified location or source. It could literally have come from anywhere. The snapshots are identical to those on Havern's forum, but AFAIK, there is still no source attributed to the chart itself.
OK, I'll set that aside for the moment.
4. Onto the "analysis" in that video:
Cloud cover versus temperature:
"On the Thursday there was about 50% cloud cover from dawn, rising to nearly 100% cloud cover by the early afternoon." @10:15-40 ish.
The vertical lines in that chart separate the days. The high cloud cover in that chart is towards the right-hand side of that 24-hour period, therefore it can't represent early afternoon - it's latish evening. That chart shows the maximum temperature as 19, and right above the high cloud cover. That might seem odd, but it would be consistent with cloud cover sealing in the day's progressive warmth.
Then...
"... The temperature chart shows us that the temperature on Thursday rose from a cool 13 degrees C (55 degrees Fahrenheit) in the morning, to just 17 degrees C (63 degrees Fahrenheit) around mid-day, when the photo was supposed to have been taken."
So... let's stop there for a minute. If the time of the cloud cover is meant to correspond vertically to the time of the temperature, the cloud cover was only 50% when the temperature was around 17°C "around mid-day".
I have already posted a link to a Sagres weather chart for that day showing that there were approximately 11.5 hours of sunshine that day. I'll add it here, when I find it again.
Wind direction:
Then, have a look at the wind direction on that chart. It started off as coming from the West and moves to WSW during the day, and very late evening /overnight drops to WNS, which is consistent with Faro.
Faro 2:00 PM 18.0 °C WSW 25.9 km/h / 7.2 m/s Scattered Clouds
Wind speed: Faro was indeed a Force 4 at 2pm, whereas in Sagres, it was a very mild breeze at 1pm, becoming stronger by 4pm.
Note: Beaufort scale: 4 Moderate breeze 20–28 km/h. Small waves with breaking crests. Fairly frequent whitecaps. Dust and loose paper raised. Small branches begin to move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale
Although there can be variations even a few kms away, the Sagres charts coincide far more closely to the weather in the "last photo" in PdL than to Faro.
Moving on...
5. Photos depicting Algarve weather:
"One well-respected Madeleine McCann researcher, a retired former police superintendant, has collected dated photographs to show exactly how the weather changed on the Monday of that week..."
Fine, but the photos (aside from one which is apparently from "near Lagos" during the sunny previous weekend), don't state where the ones taken later in the week were taken. The one that supposedly illustrates 3 May appears to be inland... somewhere.
6: Local former RAF ex-pat diary:
Then, the narration moves on to an ... "... ex-RAF man, now an ex-pat living in Praia da Luz, kept daily weather records. His diary confirms the cloudier, windy, cooler conditions that prevailed on that Thursday, when the last photo was supposed to have been taken." (up to @13:30 ish).
Hmm.
I can find no indication that this ex-pat was examining a PdL weather chart (as the source chart for Hall's video comes from Havern's, with no original source).
There is, however, an extract from his alleged diary (for which I can find no online source either that doesn't originate from... Havern's, yet again).
So, let's see.
The only trace that I can find is of a former UK police officer quoting the ex-pat RAF chap as saying, supposedly concerning the evening of 3 May (although as the source hasn't been provided, that's not clear either): "I arrived at my apartment about 1145pm. It was a clear dry moonlit night and no sound of human or vehicular activity, and it was good to reflect that better weather had now set in."
Where was he during that day? Where was this apartment? In PdL or somewehere else? Did he seriously arrive back in PdL on 3 May at around 1145pm to "no sound of human or vehicular activity" just as the whole of PdL was out and about searching for a missing child ??
This also appears to have been attributed to this former RAF ex-pat:
However of much greater import - is the wind speed and cloud factor. At 1400 on 3 May, wind speed is recorded as force 4 with a still air temperature of 17 C. Although the pool area is to some extent sheltered, with the westerly direction component the wind would be markedly chilly with a chill factor pulling the temp down to as low as 15C - definitely not suitable for scantily clad pool activity.
That description corresponds more to Faro, as opposed to Sagres.
From a different thread, the alleged former UK policeman answers, in response to a question about weather data from Faro:
"Yes, I know it is Faro airport, but that is only a few km up the road."
No, it's not, it's 40 km to the east.
You appear to have built a head of steam here. You might like to try the following when you go back to the Sagres weather chart.
If you get the data not just for the 3rd but for other days as well, I think it can be tested in some instances.
The prevailing wind direction should impact where the Luz weather was coming from, and that in turn impacts The Last Photo.
It's a bit of a long shot, but it might just match the rain that led to tennis being cancelled on Wed morning, with drier conditions in the afternoon.
Excepting statements, the best source I can think of for actual Luz weather is the video of the McCanns being taken to Portimão on the morning of the 4th.
Can I make a further request? Have a crack at finding any source for cloud cover. I have yet to achieve this.
The most obvious would be the Aerôdromo de Lagos, but I can't find any historical data for this.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:14:27 PM
You appear to have built a head of steam here. You might like to try the following when you go back to the Sagres weather chart.
If you get the data not just for the 3rd but for other days as well, I think it can be tested in some instances.
The prevailing wind direction should impact where the Luz weather was coming from, and that in turn impacts The Last Photo.
It's a bit of a long shot, but it might just match the rain that led to tennis being cancelled on Wed morning, with drier conditions in the afternoon.
Excepting statements, the best source I can think of for actual Luz weather is the video of the McCanns being taken to Portimão on the morning of the 4th.
Can I make a further request? Have a crack at finding any source for cloud cover. I have yet to achieve this.
The most obvious would be the Aerôdromo de Lagos, but I can't find any historical data for this.
I did check for the Lagos airstrip, but I couldn't find anything dating back to that time. The most I'd found concerning Lagos was a tourist blog (promoting sunny Algarve), with basic data, but which only dated back to October 2007.
I've noticed that there are quite a few more weather data capture points online than there were back in 2007. Perhaps we tend to forget how much technology has moved on since then...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:21:01 PM
@ SIL I had already posted sunshine for Sagres... = 11 - 11.5 hours. I'm trying to find the post in question.
That weather chart does not seem to correspond to Faro on that day. That Faro got bad weather on Thursday with the wind coming in from a westerly direction, with bad weather moving on from Sagres towards the east seems fairly logical to me.
A caveat, of course, is that local conditions even from nearby Sagres may not correspond. On the other hand, 40 km down the eastern coast appear even less likely to correspond.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:27:23 PM
Windspeed did indeed hit 26km/h... but not at "lunchtime".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:33:35 PM
Sagres sunshine
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:35:33 PM
And...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 07, 2016, 02:38:24 PM
In the UK weather stations are on a 40km grid and even with that weather interpretation even by the experts can be incorrect. Amateurs trying to interpolate weather from two stations about 80km apart is a hiding to nothing. We have all heard and some experienced the "p*****g with rain on one side of the street and sunny on the other".
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:39:03 PM
Now I just have to find where I found that.. It was from a bona fide weather site with historical data.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:47:33 PM
In the UK weather stations are on a 40km grid and even with that weather interpretation even by the experts can be incorrect. Amateurs trying to interpolate weather from two stations about 80km apart is a hiding to nothing. We have all heard and some experienced the "p*****g with rain on one side of the street and sunny on the other".
Now, yes. It's not always easy to find historical daily records going back 9 years.
I've found two for Sagres and even so, they don't correspond to the precise location - two are 10-12 km away (Sagres) and the other is 40km away in the direction of the advancing bad weather in Faro).
The weather may, of course, be better or worse even a few km away... but taking Faro airport as conditions prevailing in the little cove of PdL 40km to the west as "proof" of anything seems somewhat precarious...
NB: I stil don't understand how this RAF ex-pat didn't notice any activity on the evening of 3 May when he got to his apartment, wherever that was. As I can't find any indication of where he actually was that night, he might not have been in PdL at all
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 02:51:41 PM
@ SIL
My source for sunshine hours was weatheronline.co.uk
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 07, 2016, 03:17:40 PM
I can't find the sunshine record from wunderground.
No, I didn't mean that. I meant that someone else should assess the reliability of the source, and verify my interpretation. I have got too many things wrong in the past that needed to be unpicked later. Much better to start with a double check.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
@ SIL
Go to www.weatheronline.co.uk
From there, click on "archive" at the top.
Left-hand column, click on world, then Europe, then south.
Select PT, then scan through to find Sagres.
When Sagres pops up, select date.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 03:35:01 PM
No, I didn't mean that. I meant that someone else should assess the reliability of the source, and verify my interpretation. I have got too many things wrong in the past that needed to be unpicked later. Much better to start with a double check.
I understand that, no probs.
For the moment, I can find no verification as to the source of this unidentified weather chart from Havern's.
The independently-sourced charts that I have managed to find (and for which I have provided links) don't appear to corroborate weather descriptions for PdL that day.
Perhaps it was taken from a reliable source, however, no source was provided, let alone any corroborating one.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 03:40:33 PM
Let's put it another way... if that weather chart was indeed from PdL, why not post the original source?
Simples.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 07, 2016, 03:54:56 PM
For the moment, I can find no verification as to the source of this unidentified weather chart from Havern's.
The independently-sourced charts that I have managed to find (and for which I have provided links) don't appear to corroborate weather descriptions for PdL that day.
Perhaps it was taken from a reliable source, however, no source was provided, let alone any corroborating one.
Try comparing that chart with an equivalent time span from Sagres, and the same from Faro. If it from Sages, it should match the Sagres chart. If it from Faro, it should match Faro. While if it matches neither .......
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 04:01:03 PM
@ SIL
Hope this works. Sagres Temp at 2 pm was a fraction below 18°c (within the top range of 16-18°C), and wind gust had risen to what looks like around 17-18 km/h (towards the top of the range of 13-21 km/h).
If the pool was sheltered in the little cove of PdL, the weather may have felt more pleasant at around 2pm than Sagres... and certainly more so than Faro that day.
In the UK weather stations are on a 40km grid and even with that weather interpretation even by the experts can be incorrect. Amateurs trying to interpolate weather from two stations about 80km apart is a hiding to nothing. We have all heard and some experienced the "p*****g with rain on one side of the street and sunny on the other".
I wasn't thinking about simple interpolation
If the wind was predominantly westerly at any period, then one should get a Sagres - Luz - Lagos movement of cloud at a rate predictable by the wind speed.
If the charts show significant components that are offset from west, then the result becomes highly unpredictable, as the 3 places are getting weather from quite different sources.
If both charts show anything with a westerly component, then I for one would not accept Faro weather as valid. To swallow Faro, it would take charts with a strong element of easterly in it.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 04:08:59 PM
The temp in the alleged "PdL" one is 1° out compared to the max temp in Faro- but which was in the latish evening, not "mid-day". The temp in the Sagres one at around 2 pm was just under 18° (17.5°?).
The times of these max temps don't correspond.
The wind direction and speed corresponds far more to Sagres, IMO, than to Faro... but then there can still be local variations even within a few kms.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 04:26:39 PM
@ SIL
According to the EXIF data on one photo (playground man) in the Bruno Photo library, it was dated as having been taken on Wednesday pm (which would indicate at least a bit of sunshine that afternoon, despite the rainy morning).
Perhaps an elementary question, but what doesn't that so-called PDL one have a location as a label?
It could simply be protecting one's sources.
I have a screen cap of someone tracking the Faro data who meets Mr Hall's description. I would consider it extremely bad form to publish someone's personal details. So if I ever round to publishing the screen cap, all personal data of said person will get removed first.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 05:20:56 PM
I have a screen cap of someone tracking the Faro data who meets Mr Hall's description. I would consider it extremely bad form to publish someone's personal details. So if I ever round to publishing the screen cap, all personal data of said person will get removed first.
Is it an issue if the person in question posted it on an open forum? If it was meant to be private, why post it in public in the first place? Or was this privately obtained information that got repeated?
For the moment I have no idea whether the alleged "PdL" chart originally came from the same source who allegedly commented on PDL weather that night.
If so, the weather still seems far more like Faro than Sagres, and I still wonder how that person arrived at his apartment to no unusual noise in the village at 11.45 pm on 3 May when everyone was apparently out searching for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 05:37:32 PM
Unless there is more than one ex-pat former RAF chap living in tiny PdL, it's fairly obvious who that is.
His identity still doesn't answer my questions, though...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 08, 2016, 11:41:27 AM
@ SIL
I'm still looking at 3 May at the moment.
I'll accept, for the moment, that the Hall /Havern chart may, possibly have come from an unofficial personal weather gadget with software analysis support.
It's also possible that it's a weather chart for the local golf club in nearby Lagos (to the east of PdL, but reasonably close). However, if that were the case, wouldn't wind speed have been a useful factor for golfing aficionados? The chart shown doesn't indicate wind speed.
I have a still of the weekly chart (location undetermined) as shown on Hall's video. By happy coincidence, by stopping the video and making it fullscreen, the vertical lines between the days are around 25.2 mm in width. Assuming that the lines represent a 24-hour period from midnight to midnight - with a ruler - the hours can be calculated with a very short margin error.
So, examining the weather on that chart (with an error margin of 15-30 mins, depending on how you squint to approximate a subdivision of 1 mm):
"Hall" 's chart of undetermined location: Thurs, 3 May
Max temp (19°C): 19-20:00 High-cloud cover: 17-20:00
The 17°C temp was from 10-14:00, then rose slightly as of 14:00 to 17.5° ish, until it rose again at around 16:00 to 18°C), then to 19°C somewhere between 19-20:00 (the bullet point denoting this is wider than 1 mm when blowing this up).
By 22:00, temp back down to 17°C and dropping further through the night.
That chart, as depicted in the video, does not provide wind speed data, just the general direction: overnight, sometime during the day and the following late night/overnight direction.
Back to Hall's narration of this with his cursor:
"On the Thursday there was about 50% cloud cover from dawn, rising to nearly 100% cloud cover by the early afternoon." @10:15-40 ish.
- What is "early afternoon"? That 3mm / 3-vertical-bar max cloud cover was from 17:00-20:00 (give or take 15 mins or so).
- "... The temperature chart shows us that the temperature on Thursday rose from a cool 13 degrees C (55 degrees Fahrenheit) in the morning, to just 17 degrees C (63 degrees Fahrenheit) around mid-day, when the photo was supposed to have been taken."
The 17°C temp plateau was from 10-14:00, then rose slightly as of 14:00 to 17.5° ish, until it rose again at around 16:00 to 18°C, then again to the day's max of 19°C somewhere around 20:00.
My first conclusion is that, wherever that chart was supposed to be located, Hall's narration is not only inaccurate, but even a visual glance shows that the alleged time of the high cloud cover does not correspond vertically to the temperature described.
- There is no visible wind speed on that chart, so comments about no visible hair movement in the "last photo" must presumably come from a different source. Which source would that have been?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 08, 2016, 01:03:55 PM
it wasn't weather..in Faro...or Sagres
what was on the film was ...........Luz/Lagos
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2016, 01:07:48 PM
- There is no visible wind speed on that chart, so comments about no visible hair movement in the "last photo" must presumably come from a different source. Which source would that have been?
If the wind was W or NW at the time, there would be no hair movement. In The Last Photo, the background indicates the size of the wall to the N. The photo of Madeleine by the tree (with Ella removed) indicates the size of the wall to the W.
The children's pool is a well-sheltered sun trap.
It would take wind with an E component (NE, E, SE) to ruffle hair in there. I'm not sure what would happen with wind from the S. The biggest building in Luz, LuzTur, is to the S, but it is some distance off.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2016, 01:12:17 PM
What was said may have been asserted to have been Luz/Lagos, but that does not make it so. That would require a weather station in Luz/Lagos of high quality, and there is no evidence of such.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 08, 2016, 01:18:17 PM
What was said may have been asserted to have been Luz/Lagos, but that does not make it so. That would require a weather station in Luz/Lagos of high quality, and there is no evidence of such.
so it cannot be proved one way or another then ........
its just a shame if Carena spends a lot of time researching something that isn't there
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 01:26:43 PM
so it cannot be proved one way or another then ........
its just a shame if Carena spends a lot of time researching something that isn't there
Surely the content of your post indicates a major flaw in Richard Hall's claims. Is he conjuring up something that isn't there? On balance ... I would say so if his 'research' can neither be sourced or replicated.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 08, 2016, 01:39:11 PM
Surely the content of your post indicates a major flaw in Richard Hall's claims. Is he conjuring up something that isn't there? On balance ... I would say so if his 'research' can neither be sourced or replicated.
stop twisting my words/post ...you shouldn't do that ...especially the position you are in...how can you respond fairly ...when you admit to not seeing the film also
Surely the content of your post indicates a major flaw in Richard Hall's claims
no it certainly does not claim there is a flaw in what R H says..............he hasn't been proved wrong....
Is he conjuring up something that isn't there? On balance ... I would say so if his 'research' can neither be sourced or replicated.
it is Carena ....who is searching for something that isn't there.....
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2016, 02:05:09 PM
so it cannot be proved one way or another then ........
its just a shame if Carena spends a lot of time researching something that isn't there
Thinking out loud, the forum where this chart appears to originate should have nailed this a long time back.
It can be proved quite easily, by Mr Hall stating a precise source for his weather chart. Otherwise it leaves Mr Hall with a significant credibility issue, as his video relies upon The Last Photo not fitting the weather chart as a key component of shifting Madeleine's disappearance further back in time. A pivotal piece of 'evidence' which we are required to take on trust.
It is harder to disprove it. I can locate the ex-pat, ex-RAF man without too much difficulty. It isn't worth the effort of querying him over the matter. Whatever the outcome, it can be glossed over by any Hall supporter, in a variety of ways.
What can be done is a bit more interesting, because it actually puts something into the pot. And that is simply to build the 1 week composite chart for Sagres, ditto for Faro. Those have a value.
And then do a comparison with Mr Hall's chart, which will add only a little, if I am correct that his chart does not match either. It just might give me enough information to narrow down Mr Hall's source.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: John on April 08, 2016, 02:10:44 PM
Thinking out loud, the forum where this chart appears to originate should have nailed this a long time back.
It can be proved quite easily, by Mr Hall stating a precise source for his weather chart. Otherwise it leaves Mr Hall with a significant credibility issue, as his video relies upon The Last Photo not fitting the weather chart as a key component of shifting Madeleine's disappearance further back in time. A pivotal piece of 'evidence' which we are required to take on trust.
It is harder to disprove it. I can locate the ex-pat, ex-RAF man without too much difficulty. It isn't worth the effort of querying him over the matter. Whatever the outcome, it can be glossed over by any Hall supporter, in a variety of ways.
What can be done is a bit more interesting, because it actually puts something into the pot. And that is simply to build the 1 week composite chart for Sagres, ditto for Faro. Those have a value.
And then do a comparison with Mr Hall's chart, which will add only a little, if I am correct that his chart does not match either. It just might give me enough information to narrow down Mr Hall's source.
Shining, can I ask if you received any response from Team McCann to your kind offer of help?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 08, 2016, 02:37:18 PM
Thinking out loud, the forum where this chart appears to originate should have nailed this a long time back.
It can be proved quite easily, by Mr Hall stating a precise source for his weather chart. Otherwise it leaves Mr Hall with a significant credibility issue, as his video relies upon The Last Photo not fitting the weather chart as a key component of shifting Madeleine's disappearance further back in time. A pivotal piece of 'evidence' which we are required to take on trust.
It is harder to disprove it. I can locate the ex-pat, ex-RAF man without too much difficulty. It isn't worth the effort of querying him over the matter. Whatever the outcome, it can be glossed over by any Hall supporter, in a variety of ways.
What can be done is a bit more interesting, because it actually puts something into the pot. And that is simply to build the 1 week composite chart for Sagres, ditto for Faro. Those have a value.
And then do a comparison with Mr Hall's chart, which will add only a little, if I am correct that his chart does not match either. It just might give me enough information to narrow down Mr Hall's source.
well the best thing there then is to not discredit R H ....but to ask him ...he is quite easy to reach ...and take that up with him...i cant see though why he should have to explain himself to you
he has not been challenged so far ............about anything in his films ....
or they wouldn't be there .....and its not as-if the mccs haven't the right people in place to do that
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2016, 02:45:19 PM
Shining, can I ask if you received any response from Team McCann to your kind offer of help?
I delayed over the Easter break, in case the McCanns were on holiday. Then I delayed a bit longer, in case Gerry had a backlog from a break. Then the Leveson thing hit the media.
My contact email went in early this morning. The email address I am using may well have a gatekeeper on it - I would expect that to be the case. I think it will be about a week before I have an idea on whether this is a dead end or not.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2016, 03:15:35 PM
well the best thing there then is to not discredit R H ....but to ask him ...he is quite easy to reach ...and take that up with him...i cant see though why he should have to explain himself to you
he has not been challenged so far ............about anything in his films ....
or they wouldn't be there .....and its not as-if the mccs haven't the right people in place to do that
One of the forum rules is that personal attacks are not permitted, so I have been very careful in not discrediting Mr Hall per se. However, I am able to analyse/criticise ideas or theories raised on this forum, and Mr Hall's work has been allowed to remain as a topic, even despite suggestions the entire topic should be deleted. And analysing/criticising Mr Hall's work is what I am doing.
There is nothing to prevent Mr Hall from passing comment, here or elsewhere, on my analysis.
Mr Hall has, to date, posted a single comment on my blog. The comment pointed out a piece of faulty analysis in one of my articles. As his comment was civil, I approved it, even though I thought he was wrong at the time. After giving it further consideration, I came to the viewpoint Mr Hall was correct on that occasion. I therefore added a comment stating that I realised Mr Hall was correct. So I am hardly closed-minded.
This is not an advertising forum, but Mr Hall's work now has many links to it from this topic, which I understand boosts search engine ratings, thus aiding the promotion of Mr Hall's work.
As to the issue of whether Mr Hall's work has been challenged, it most certainly has in this topic. It does not need McCann aides or supporters for that. Indeed, the reaction of supporters on here has been in the main dismissive rather than analytical/critical, IMO.
You appear to be generally supportive of Mr Hall's video and you state Mr Hall is easy to reach. You are well-placed, therefore, to pass on to Mr Hall any issues that you cannot personally resolve.
I can well remember the days when I was a newbie, and I found it very difficult to sort fact from fiction. I am trying to ensure that readers of this thread who are less familiar with the case do not suffer this issue.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 08, 2016, 05:01:42 PM
stop twisting my words/post ...you shouldn't do that ...especially the position you are in...how can you respond fairly ...when you admit to not seeing the film also
Surely the content of your post indicates a major flaw in Richard Hall's claims
no it certainly does not claim there is a flaw in what R H says..............he hasn't been proved wrong....
Is he conjuring up something that isn't there? On balance ... I would say so if his 'research' can neither be sourced or replicated.
it is Carena ....who is searching for something that isn't there.....
Well, yes, quite right: I was looking for any indication as to where this weather chart was taken - it isn't there, or at least not in that segment.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 12, 2016, 09:32:17 AM
One of the forum rules is that personal attacks are not permitted, so I have been very careful in not discrediting Mr Hall per se. However, I am able to analyse/criticise ideas or theories raised on this forum, and Mr Hall's work has been allowed to remain as a topic, even despite suggestions the entire topic should be deleted. And analysing/criticising Mr Hall's work is what I am doing.
There is nothing to prevent Mr Hall from passing comment, here or elsewhere, on my analysis.
Mr Hall has, to date, posted a single comment on my blog. The comment pointed out a piece of faulty analysis in one of my articles. As his comment was civil, I approved it, even though I thought he was wrong at the time. After giving it further consideration, I came to the viewpoint Mr Hall was correct on that occasion. I therefore added a comment stating that I realised Mr Hall was correct. So I am hardly closed-minded.
This is not an advertising forum, but Mr Hall's work now has many links to it from this topic, which I understand boosts search engine ratings, thus aiding the promotion of Mr Hall's work.
As to the issue of whether Mr Hall's work has been challenged, it most certainly has in this topic. It does not need McCann aides or supporters for that. Indeed, the reaction of supporters on here has been in the main dismissive rather than analytical/critical, IMO.
You appear to be generally supportive of Mr Hall's video and you state Mr Hall is easy to reach. You are well-placed, therefore, to pass on to Mr Hall any issues that you cannot personally resolve.
I can well remember the days when I was a newbie, and I found it very difficult to sort fact from fiction. I am trying to ensure that readers of this thread who are less familiar with the case do not suffer this issue.
hi S I L
firstly i would like to say ....i am not promoting R H .....he does a very good job of that himself ....they are all over the net
i don't see either why i should have to personally resolve ...anything RH says..
what i do appreciate here ....is Rh has a platform ...and he uses that platform ...to show the abduction didn't necessarily take place ....something that UK have been starved of many years ...no one has ever been allowed to go against the mccs ...for fear of being sued .....what the fund mony was used for it seems....
this case is a mystery ...it is not cut and dried as in abduction only scenario... ...of which to date not one bit of proof to back it up
in various videos put out by the Macs .....[there version]...i cannot see RH video's any different to those ....he shows various accounts that can be questioned ....and has done so
there are a multitude of inconsistencies in this case ....also things that do not add up
I can well remember the days when I was a newbie, and I found it very difficult to sort fact from fiction. I am trying to ensure that readers of this thread who are less familiar with the case do not suffer this issue.
absolutely.........
but i think at this moment in time ....it is impossible to sort fact .....from......fiction .....[maddie was abducted because the mccs said she was]
you need to know both sides of the story to do this ....not just one ...to then see which one is the most credable to justify what you believe
i just never have ...believed maddie was abducted .......G A ...should never have been removed from the case
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ferryman on April 12, 2016, 09:47:37 AM
i know just how you feel Eleanor............i feel just the same when i see mccs are not suspects ..SY say so
You feel that Scotland Yard, professional detectives, who have read the original source files, somehow have done so less thoroughly than an army of armchair sleuths pouring over computers in their living-rooms?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2016, 09:50:27 AM
i know just how you feel Eleanor............i feel just the same when i see mccs are not suspects ..SY say so
**snip While the investigation is at a very early stage, Mr Redwood said: "The review has given us new thinking, new theories, new evidence and new witnesses."
The senior detective said he "genuinely" believes that Madeleine may still be alive, and appealed to the public to keep looking for her.
"Over the last two years what the review has told me is that there is no clear definitive proof that Madeleine McCann is dead. So on that basis I still genuinely believe that there is a possibility that she is alive.
"I would ask the public to continue to look for her. If you look on the Metropolitan Police website you will see the image that we presented last year to the public and all the contact details.
"If the public aren't happy to talk to police then they can call Crimestoppers.
"Everything we are doing is focused towards trying to find Madeleine McCann. There are no guarantees of any outcome, but I can assure you of our absolute determination to try and establish what has happened to her."
He stressed that neither her parents nor the McCanns' friends who were having dinner with them that night are among the 38 people identified.
"Neither her parents or any of the members of the group who were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
"They (the McCanns) are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine."
You feel that Scotland Yard, professional detectives, who have read the original source files, somehow have done so less thoroughly than an army of armchair sleuths pouring over computers in their living-rooms?
okay................didn't the PJ ...say they were not suspects
and as i said ..........it annoys me personally in answer to Eleanor .........okay
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on April 12, 2016, 10:05:43 AM
You feel that Scotland Yard, professional detectives, who have read the original source files, somehow have done so less thoroughly than an army of armchair sleuths pouring over computers in their living-rooms?
If, as seems possible according to their remit, Operation Grange is investigating just one possibility in this case, then it's logical for them to announce that the McCanns are not suspects. If they are only investigating an abduction then these professional detectives will have no interest in exploring other possibilities.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 12, 2016, 10:13:46 AM
firstly i would like to say ....i am not promoting R H .....he does a very good job of that himself ....they are all over the net
i don't see either why i should have to personally resolve ...anything RH says..
what i do appreciate here ....is Rh has a platform ...and he uses that platform ...to show the abduction didn't necessarily take place ....something that UK have been starved of many years ...no one has ever been allowed to go against the mccs ...for fear of being sued .....what the fund mony was used for it seems....
this case is a mystery ...it is not cut and dried as in abduction only scenario... ...of which to date not one bit of proof to back it up
in various videos put out by the Macs .....[there version]...i cannot see RH video's any different to those ....he shows various accounts that can be questioned ....and has done so
there are a multitude of inconsistencies in this case ....also things that do not add up
I can well remember the days when I was a newbie, and I found it very difficult to sort fact from fiction. I am trying to ensure that readers of this thread who are less familiar with the case do not suffer this issue.
absolutely.........
but i think at this moment in time ....it is impossible to sort fact .....from......fiction .....[maddie was abducted because the mccs said she was]
you need to know both sides of the story to do this ....not just one ...to then see which one is the most credable to justify what you believe
i just never have ...believed maddie was abducted .......G A ...should never have been removed from the case
I consider that it is possible to sort many instances of fiction from fact, and IMO, Mr Hall has used considerable fiction in his latest video.
I don't see why anyone who is not completely familiar with case needs to 1) watch, in considerable detail, Mr Hall's 4 hour video and 2) bone up on the case to see that the work contains significant errors that Mr Hall should have spotted.
I cannot for the life of me understand why Mr Hall can get the crèche sign out procedure completely wrong. I have a choice between very poor research indeed, or something considerably worse.
I do not know what happened to Madeleine, and I do not work/think to the restrictions of the OG remit.
However, High Tea took place on 3 May 2007, as verified by Mr Raj Balu in his witness statement, as anyone can check, including Mr Hall.
And Madeleine was there, as per Kate's book and the crèche records.
Mr Hall's massive conspiracy theory needs the involvement of Kate McCann, Gerry McCann, David Payne and Cat Baker (or A N Other) just to get over Madeleine at high tea on 3 May. Then it gets bigger and bigger as he works back.
I would say Mr Hall's massive conspiracy theory is about as realistic as Textusa's massive conspiracy theory. Neither of them worries much about the true facts. IMO
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Benice on April 12, 2016, 10:15:50 AM
If, as seems possible according to their remit, Operation Grange is investigating just one possibility in this case, then it's logical for them to announce that the McCanns are not suspects. If they are only investigating an abduction then these professional detectives will have no interest in exploring other possibilities.
Groundhog day?
No matter what the remit was - the exact same evidence would be investigated. Do you think that if SY came across evidence which strongly pointed to the McCanns and they friends, they would simply ignore it because it didn't fit in with their original remit? Surely not.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2016, 10:32:46 AM
If, as seems possible according to their remit, Operation Grange is investigating just one possibility in this case, then it's logical for them to announce that the McCanns are not suspects. If they are only investigating an abduction then these professional detectives will have no interest in exploring other possibilities.
The assumption you appear to be making is that Operation Grange undertook a review of all the evidence available to them ... collated the evidence from that ... then discarded it to go for abduction because the McCann's said it was so.
They could have saved themselves the bother by cutting out the middle man by instead of starting to plough through the evidence in 2011 ... they had just plumped for it then instead of waiting two years.
Richard Hall may have built a name for himself by exploiting abysmal research to propound his conclusions ... I believe Scotland Yard might use more sophisticated methods than that ... and when they say that they are looking for an abductor it is as a result of analysis of the evidence.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on April 12, 2016, 10:41:09 AM
The assumption you appear to be making is that Operation Grange undertook a review of all the evidence available to them ... collated the evidence from that ... then discarded it to go for abduction because the McCann's said it was so.
They could have saved themselves the bother by cutting out the middle man by instead of starting to plough through the evidence in 2011 ... they had just plumped for it then instead of waiting two years.
Richard Hall may have built a name for himself by exploiting abysmal research to propound his conclusions ... I believe Scotland Yard might use more sophisticated methods than that ... and when they say that they are looking for an abductor it is as a result of analysis of the evidence.
...and we know where SY's endeavours have led..............
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2016, 11:46:55 AM
Have they found how Madeleine disappeared from the apartment ?
Have they found Madeleine ?
There are clear answers on both.
Did I miss the press release giving out all the details of exactly what the police are doing in the active investigation into the case of a missing child?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on April 12, 2016, 12:36:47 PM
Did I miss the press release giving out all the details of exactly what the police are doing in the active investigation into the case of a missing child?
I wonder how much of the £95,000 now remains ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 13, 2016, 10:00:45 AM
Did I miss the press release giving out all the details of exactly what the police are doing in the active investigation into the case of a missing child?
i think we only see that ...
when maddie is spotted somewhere .....etc etc
usually when other stuff being reported.....like what's happening with G A
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on April 21, 2016, 08:21:11 AM
latest update from Richard Hall......
even Clarence Mitchel describes ....the case as a Soap Opera...........
... link removed - SIL
we all no what a arguido is .....apparently C M .....doesn't.............. @)(++(*
They were given this 'arguido status', as it's called in Portugal, it technically doesn't mean 'suspect', it doesn't mean 'suspect' in the sense of a serious crime, you can be given a parking ticket and you'd be an 'arguido', it means you're a person of interest to a police enquiry..."
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 09:44:55 AM
They were given this 'arguido status', as it's called in Portugal, it technically doesn't mean 'suspect', it doesn't mean 'suspect' in the sense of a serious crime, you can be given a parking ticket and you'd be an 'arguido', it means you're a person of interest to a police enquiry..."
Indeed, it really isn't too complicated a system once one gets used to the terminology. However it is a pity that those such as Richard Hall have totally misunderstood or misinterpreted or even totally ignored the ramifications of being constituted arguido/a under the system.
That's fine as far as he is concerned but his deliberate promulgating of misinformation to others is more problematical.
Please note the emboldened text below. None of the three arguidos in Madeleine's case were arrested and charged ... which under Portuguese law mean they have an entirely clean slate.
The same cannot be said of the fourth arguido (the assault on Leonor Cipriano, for which she was penalised by having her sentence extended) we associate with Madeleine's case. He was indicted and was found guilty.
So if you consider Clarence Mitchell to be misinformed re arguido status in Portugal ... it could well be because he has watched too many Richard Hall videos.
**snip Once a case file is completed, the police pass it to the public ministry, the equivalent of the crown prosecution service, which decides whether an "acusacao" or indictment is brought.
Portuguese authorities express caution against expecting that arrests or charges will automatically follow.
It is not uncommon for people caught up in criminal investigations in Portugal to declare themselves arguidos in order to receive more legal protection, particularly if they feel the line of questioning implies they are a suspect.
The ex-pat Briton, Robert Murat, was declared an arguido in the Madeleine case in May but has not been charged or formally arrested. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/07/ukcrime.madeleinemccann2
9/11: Finding out who did 9/11 is NOT the secret they are trying to protect. The secret is so big that they would rather us believe it was done by a faction inside our government or even another government. Keeping us fighting over WHO did it and not looking at what was ACTUALLY done is the goal. Start knowing the TRUTH for yourself. Watch this in full and then GET THE BOOK! Dr. Judy Wood could not be better qualified to forensically and scientifically examine the evidence of the 9/11 attacks. The towers were turned to dust in mid air and were not destroyed using kinetic objects or weapons such as planes, bombs or nukes. The towers were processed with the weapon and turned to dust from within for a period before they collapsed. Watch steel turn to dust before your eyes.
---
7/7:
We have been covering the false flag attack on London known as 7/7 for a few years now. During that period more and more information has come to light, all of which points to and re-enforces the argument that the bombings were carried out by the authorities, not by Islamic terrorists. A catalogue of "smoking guns" is enough to persuade even the most closed minded person of this fact. The police investigation should have started (and should still start) with the arrest and questioning of "crisis management specialist" Peter Power. Yep - he certainly "managed" this "crisis", so he did. Most MPs are not informed about the facts of 7/7 and it is breathtaking to read some of their responses from the current Richplanet 7/7 campaign. Some are exhibiting pathological denial, including Nick Clegg.
---
The London bombings which took place on 7th July 2005 killing 56 people were not carried out by young Muslims as stated in mainstream media. There is not a shred of evidence that would convict the four blamed for the attacks which is why under British law they are totally innocent. Once you look in detail at the facts of seven/seven it becomes abundantly clear that we have totally worthless news media reporting in the UK. The news media organisations are at least in part complicit in the bombings, as they have actively mis-reported the truth and mis-lead the public away from the true perpetrators of these murders.
---
UFOs: The phenomenon of animal mutilation difficult to explain in conventional terms, and has been linked for decades with UFO’s, because strange lights are sometimes witnessed in proximity to sites where animal carcases are found. But have human beings suffered similar attacks? This film attempts to answer this very controversial question. Rumours about human mutilation have circulated the UFO community for years with some people claiming to have had contact with a military group which is used to acquire the corpses of victims of human mutilation. In the film we reveal the testimony of a black ops soldier, who was employed by a secret NATO “find and secure” military team. Their job is to search for and then protect sites where human mutilation has taken place. This programme is PART ONE. Part two follows in the next Richplanet show.
Hmmm.
Erm yeah, he seems quite sane eh :D
Having said that, at the risk of being called a crazy, I do believe in aliens/UFOs @)(++(*
I can't get away with stuff like this, just the amount of people involved in the whole thing is insane. If Madeleine died earlier in the week, this means creche records and everything are faked..witnesses lied about seeing her and have never said anything since, etc etc. Its just not very plausible.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 24, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
I have identified that the source of the weather chart in Mr Hall's video is weatherspark.com.
It is for Faro airport. weatherspark.com does not pick up Sagres weather station, and there is nothing it does pick up that is closer to Luz than Faro. The next nearest is Beja airport, which is about 70 miles N of Faro.
weatherspark.com does appear to have some indication of cloudiness v sunniness. It looks to be highly aggregated, and I can't extract anything that is anywhere hourly, certainly without signing up for a weather service that I don't want.
The provenance of Mr Hall's chart is that it appears to be based on a very similar chart developed by Peter Mac on another forum. This confirms the idea raised earlier in this thread of Peter Mac's involvement and his acknowledgement that it based on Faro.
At weatherspark.com, you get more frequent information about wind direction and speed, and the bottom line is that the wind was never from Faro to Luz, though it often went the other way, giving an extremely crude indication of what had happened upwind at Luz.
On Wed 2 May 2007, the wind was basically from Sagres to Luz to Faro. Sagres got 3mm of rain, Luz got enough to rain off the morning tennis, while Faro got roughly 0.1mm.
Basically, anyone trying to use the Faro weather to 'predict' the Luz weather is on very shaky ground.
So you can compare for yourself, here is a copy of a screencap, made by Carana, of Mr Hall's weather chart. It covers 8 days. I have put in an equivalent from weatherspark.com. Mine only covers 3 days, and I have squeezed the width to match the same 3 days on Mr Hall's graphic.
There are differences in averaged or max/min figures, because I picked the data up this week and Peter Mac picked it up goodness only knows how far back. But the ones that should not change - actual temperature, wind speed, wind direction - have not changed.
Another one bites the dust.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 06:33:35 PM
Well done, SIL.
I knew where the secondary source was, but not primary one.
I agree that the descriptions of the conditions simply don't appear to correspond to Luz on that day.
A bit of "wishful-thinking" editing between the source of the graph, Faro conditions and various people's opinions may account for this assumption, which was then the basic assumption for extrapolating further.
None of these conspiracy theories really helps discover the truth of what happened to Madeleine, and so I can't understand what their purpose actually is...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on May 12, 2016, 05:27:38 PM
I knew where the secondary source was, but not primary one.
I agree that the descriptions of the conditions simply don't appear to correspond to Luz on that day.
A bit of "wishful-thinking" editing between the source of the graph, Faro conditions and various people's opinions may account for this assumption, which was then the basic assumption for extrapolating further.
None of these conspiracy theories really helps discover the truth of what happened to Madeleine, and so I can't understand what their purpose actually is...
I can. But I'm not supposed to say so.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: lordpookles on May 12, 2016, 06:43:43 PM
Having said that, at the risk of being called a crazy, I do believe in aliens/UFOs @)(++(*
I can't get away with stuff like this, just the amount of people involved in the whole thing is insane. If Madeleine died earlier in the week, this means creche records and everything are faked..witnesses lied about seeing her and have never said anything since, etc etc. Its just not very plausible.
Me too. The latest thinking from best scientists though seems to be that we may be alone in the universe as the random act of complex life occurring is so exceedingly rare that we may be all there is. So, to relate this back to Madeleine McCann - seems like an alien abduction is even more unlikely then it could have been if complex alien life were more likely to be commonplace in the universe...
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 13, 2016, 11:16:42 PM
Me too. The latest thinking from best scientists though seems to be that we may be alone in the universe as the random act of complex life occurring is so exceedingly rare that we may be all there is. So, to relate this back to Madeleine McCann - seems like an alien abduction is even more unlikely then it could have been if complex alien life were more likely to be commonplace in the universe...
Aliens are always spotted in backwater counties when drunk men who have never seen an aeroplane get scared when they see lights flickering in the sky, a bit like old macca on isle of lewis spouting 'can't get this Tv thing to work' as he pointed the remote control at the microwave...< True story. (changed the name).
I think we should all see RH as an entertainer of sorts, on the same level as Hubbard with his 'new religion'.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on November 26, 2016, 08:20:53 AM
Richard's three 'Embedded Confessions' videos have together had 17,000 views already, and they've not been up for 24 hours yet.
PART ONE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slziMpXY[Name removed]o&t=34s
PART TWO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyB29g6nbDo&t=27s
PART THREE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWWjkL-joS4&t=42s 8)><(
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Eleanor on November 26, 2016, 05:11:38 PM
Richard's three 'Embedded Confessions' videos have together had 17,000 views already, and they've not been up for 24 hours yet.
PART ONE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slziMpXY[Name removed]o&t=34s
PART TWO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyB29g6nbDo&t=27s
PART THREE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWWjkL-joS4&t=42s 8)><(
And you think that this is acceptable? Well, goodness me. If you think that by promoting this utterly boring rubbish without a grain of truth, is actually going to do anything for your lost cause then you are deluding yourself.
But that is fine by me. Keep up the good work. All you serve to do is to prove what a crock of Shite this is.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on November 27, 2016, 11:25:01 AM
And you think that this is acceptable? Well, goodness me. If you think that by promoting this utterly boring rubbish without a grain of truth, is actually going to do anything for your lost cause then you are deluding yourself.
But that is fine by me. Keep up the good work. All you serve to do is to prove what a crock of Shite this is.
thanks for reply .and advice babe
well at least you watched them .......
what it did show as i'm.sure you will have noticed ....how the mccs only care for themselves ....and not what happened to maddie
All the McCanns media interviews over the years are self evident as has been identified by many an astute observer - they never ever show any genuine concern for their precious daughter, only themselves
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on November 27, 2016, 06:55:27 PM
what it did show as i'm.sure you will have noticed ....how the mccs only care for themselves ....and not what happened to maddie
All the McCanns media interviews over the years are self evident as has been identified by many an astute observer - they never ever show any genuine concern for their precious daughter, only themselves
Well that's rubbish, they had a petition to have the case looked at again which led to it being opened. They have made pleas to the abductor, given interviews to keep Madeleine in the public eye.
What about witnesses who said the McCann's were distraught Kate was screaming and crying and hitting out at things saying 'we let her down.'
You only have to look at the photo's and video's to see that Madeleine was a much loved cherished child.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2016, 07:02:50 PM
Well that's rubbish, they had a petition to have the case looked at again which led to it being opened. They have made pleas to the abductor, given interviews to keep Madeleine in the public eye.
What about witnesses who said the McCann's were distraught Kate was screaming and crying and hitting out at things saying 'we let her down.'
You only have to look at the photo's and video's to see that Madeleine was a much loved cherished child.
Of course they let her down. A statement of the bloody obvious.
'You only have to look at the photo's and video's to see that Madeleine was a much loved cherished child.'
Remember the Philpotts children, they appeared to be children who were loved. Photos don't tell the whole story, DO THEY.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Lace on November 27, 2016, 08:08:23 PM
Of course they let her down. A statement of the bloody obvious.
'You only have to look at the photo's and video's to see that Madeleine was a much loved cherished child.'
Remember the Philpotts children, they appeared to be children who were loved. Photos don't tell the whole story, DO THEY.
Why are you shouting Stephen?
Phillpot was a very selfish man, money came before his children. You can't say that about Gerry there has been no one who has said the didn't love and care for his children.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2016, 08:18:34 PM
Phillpot was a very selfish man, money came before his children. You can't say that about Gerry there has been no one who has said the didn't love and care for his children.
I'm not shouting.
I merely pointed out your comment is irrelevant.
Now what did Gerry Mccann say on that bus on the start of the holiday ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2016, 09:47:38 PM
Has anyone at all who knew Madeleine claimed that Madeleine was an unhappy child? Is there any evidence whatsoever to contradict the view that she was a normal, happy child?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2016, 10:00:04 PM
Has anyone at all who knew Madeleine claimed that Madeleine was an unhappy child? Is there any evidence whatsoever to contradict the view that she was a normal, happy child?
No there isn't, however pictures of smiling child is not proof of totally happy child.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfie on November 27, 2016, 10:04:22 PM
Whatever the original question was. Something about whether Madeleine was happy. Something like that. Not just happy but "totally happy". If you want to know ask the child.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on November 28, 2016, 09:59:44 AM
Do you ever get premonitions? I do. Sometimes they happen quickly and others years. So I'd say before Madeleine turns 16 she will meet up with her mum again.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on November 28, 2016, 10:56:42 AM
Do you ever get premonitions? I do. Sometimes they happen quickly and others years. So I'd say before Madeleine turns 16 she will meet up with her mum again.
Is this the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff ? @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on November 28, 2016, 11:36:12 AM
Well that's rubbish, they had a petition to have the case looked at again which led to it being opened. They have made pleas to the abductor, given interviews to keep Madeleine in the public eye.
What about witnesses who said the McCann's were distraught Kate was screaming and crying and hitting out at things saying 'we let her down.'
You only have to look at the photo's and video's to see that Madeleine was a much loved cherished child.
oh lace ....sweetie ....and you don't think what you wrote was rubbish
Do you ever get premonitions? I do. Sometimes they happen quickly and others years. So I'd say before Madeleine turns 16 she will meet up with her mum again.
Well who is to know that one day Madeleine may realise who she is and get in touch who knows.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on November 28, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
Well who is to know that one day Madeleine may realise who she is and get in touch who knows.
That is indeed a possibility but a forlorn hope all the same. TV dramas like The Missing give false hope to the parents of missing children, if only every missing child could be Alice.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on November 28, 2016, 01:29:25 PM
Detective Carder Gravitt Warner Robbins Police Department, Warner Robbins, GA “I wanted to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Peter Hyatt for his recent visit to the Warner Robins Police Department and sharing his expertise on Statement Analysis. Before taking Mr. Hyatt’s class, I attended other seminars on the subject. Mr Hyatt’s teaching style, by far, made learning and understanding of the principles easy to comprehend! I can personally attest that his analysis skills are very accurate. The information he gleans from statements I provide him is extremely helpful in deciding which way I should lean while investigating a case. I would highly recommend and encourage other Law Enforcement Agencies to contact Mr. Hyatt and schedule a training seminar. The training you receive, will not only help you professionally, but will be a skill that will stay with you in every area of your life.” Lt. David Nabors Criminal Investigation Division, Rowlett, TX “I had the pleasure of working with Peter Hyatt on several criminal and administrative investigations since 2010. Peter’s in-depth analysis of statements has provided our department with insight into a writer’s intention and mindset when they wrote their statements or letters. Peter’s analyses has given us valuable information and provided us with additional investigative avenues in obtaining a more truthful account of an incident in some instances. Using Peters insight and analysis into a subject’s writing we’ve been able to construction questions beneficial in getting to the truth in a more expeditious and direct manner. Statement Analysis has also been especially helpful in internal affairs investigations within our department. I would like to recommend Peter as an examiner and instructor in Statement Analysis. He provides a valuable investigative tool that would be beneficial to your organization. Michael Berro Harold Levinson Associates, Farmingdale, NY “Peter Hyatt came to HLA twice to train on interviewing techniques and how to detect deception. Both sessions were extremely informative. We have changed the way we interview…these techniques helped us recover $600,000 from a driver who was involved in an inside job. I would highly recommend Peter…and look forward to future sessions with him.” Thomas J. Budd Mucci, Esq. “Peter’s analysis was invaluable to formulating a litigation strategy. Peter’s conclusions about the personalities and motivations derived from the written word proved to be always right on the mark. In future litigation, I plan on saving many hours by seeking Peter’s analysis immediately.” Hapeville recommendation Share this:
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2016, 04:01:17 PM
Detective Carder Gravitt Warner Robbins Police Department, Warner Robbins, GA “I wanted to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Peter Hyatt for his recent visit to the Warner Robins Police Department and sharing his expertise on Statement Analysis. Before taking Mr. Hyatt’s class, I attended other seminars on the subject. Mr Hyatt’s teaching style, by far, made learning and understanding of the principles easy to comprehend! I can personally attest that his analysis skills are very accurate. The information he gleans from statements I provide him is extremely helpful in deciding which way I should lean while investigating a case. I would highly recommend and encourage other Law Enforcement Agencies to contact Mr. Hyatt and schedule a training seminar. The training you receive, will not only help you professionally, but will be a skill that will stay with you in every area of your life.” Lt. David Nabors Criminal Investigation Division, Rowlett, TX “I had the pleasure of working with Peter Hyatt on several criminal and administrative investigations since 2010. Peter’s in-depth analysis of statements has provided our department with insight into a writer’s intention and mindset when they wrote their statements or letters. Peter’s analyses has given us valuable information and provided us with additional investigative avenues in obtaining a more truthful account of an incident in some instances. Using Peters insight and analysis into a subject’s writing we’ve been able to construction questions beneficial in getting to the truth in a more expeditious and direct manner. Statement Analysis has also been especially helpful in internal affairs investigations within our department. I would like to recommend Peter as an examiner and instructor in Statement Analysis. He provides a valuable investigative tool that would be beneficial to your organization. Michael Berro Harold Levinson Associates, Farmingdale, NY “Peter Hyatt came to HLA twice to train on interviewing techniques and how to detect deception. Both sessions were extremely informative. We have changed the way we interview…these techniques helped us recover $600,000 from a driver who was involved in an inside job. I would highly recommend Peter…and look forward to future sessions with him.” Thomas J. Budd Mucci, Esq. “Peter’s analysis was invaluable to formulating a litigation strategy. Peter’s conclusions about the personalities and motivations derived from the written word proved to be always right on the mark. In future litigation, I plan on saving many hours by seeking Peter’s analysis immediately.” Hapeville recommendation Share this:
Please tell us where in Hall's DVD Hyatt has analysed a written statement because I can't see it. Where did Hyatt obtain his baseline from to enable him to analyse the McCanns' narrative?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on November 28, 2016, 06:40:16 PM
Please tell us where in Hall's DVD Hyatt has analysed a written statement because I can't see it. Where did Hyatt obtain his baseline from to enable him to analyse the McCanns' narrative?
scuse me....what are you on about
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2016, 07:12:22 PM
I suggest you google " forensic statement analysis" to give you some knowledge of its principles. Then you may be able to understand how Hyatt & Hall have wasted 2 hours of your time. A baseline is a pre-requisite to understanding how a person normally writes or speaks in a non stressful situation.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2016, 11:42:04 PM
I suggest you google " forensic statement analysis" to give you some knowledge of its principles. Then you may be able to understand how Hyatt & Hall have wasted 2 hours of your time. A baseline is a pre-requisite to understanding how a person normally writes or speaks in a non stressful situation.
Good point but I suppose he thought there was enough examples of the McCanns on video to make this analysis. But you are right; how does he know the Kate and Gerry don't go around talking like that normally.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: misty on November 29, 2016, 12:02:02 AM
Good point but I suppose he thought there was enough examples of the McCanns on video to make this analysis. But you are right; how does he know the Kate and Gerry don't go around talking like that normally.
It is widely considered that all McCann media interviews are merely performances, scripted by their advisors. How can a statement analyst offer a reasonable opinion in such circumstances?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: xtina on November 29, 2016, 09:55:35 AM
It is widely considered that all McCann media interviews are merely performances, scripted by their advisors. How can a statement analyst offer a reasonable opinion in such circumstances?
it's what they say ....
how they say it .
saying things they don't need to say
how can it all be scripted ......it's them ...as they are.....
you don't need analyst to show ...they care more for themselves....
or to see the amount............ of inconsistencies there are.............
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2016, 10:12:07 AM
how can it all be scripted ......it's them ...as they are.....
you don't need analyst to show ...they care more for themselves....
or to see the amount............ of inconsistencies there are.............
Do you feel the same way when you read Jeremy Wilkins' rogatory statement. Full of facts - NOT. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on November 29, 2016, 10:18:17 AM
Do you feel the same way when you read Jeremy Wilkins' rogatory statement. Full of facts - NOT. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Is that your professional opinion ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2016, 10:24:31 AM
Absolutely - every fact has the opposite as a possibility as well, ie he may or may not have been going in that direction.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2016, 10:31:15 AM
Here is an example of the accuracy of the statement
Quote
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
That is a time range of 15 minutes to 45 minutes after he left his apartment. What sort of calculation was he doing to have such a tight time frame?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on November 29, 2016, 10:39:58 AM
Do you feel the same way when you read Jeremy Wilkins' rogatory statement. Full of facts - NOT. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
wasn't it g mcc who said confusion is good ..mayby they all thought the same......
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2016, 02:24:32 PM
Here is an example of the accuracy of the statement That is a time range of 15 minutes to 45 minutes after he left his apartment. What sort of calculation was he doing to have such a tight time frame?
Here is an attempt. Walking only 15 minutes. Walking and stalking 30 minutes. Walking, stalking and talking 45 minutes.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2016, 02:27:22 PM
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 10:22:20 AM
I have been slowly going through Mr Hall's videos on You Tube and looked at his website. His other videos aside which have no bearing on Madeleine's case, he does put together what information he has and presents it concisely. I can understand why many people favour these videos over others as a top down four hour overview of the case.
Having said that I do feel that Mr Hall is being pulled off in a certain direction which leaves him open to close scrutiny that doesn't add up. For example, his theory is that Madeleine died, a high level cover up ensued which led to Madeleine's body being hidden and then stored in the new hire car some two weeks later. I hope I have summerised his theory correctly. Here is where I have a disagreement with Mr Hall's conclusion. If a high level cover up was being carried out, is it likely that the parents would be left to conceal, hold and dispose of the body knowing that at any time, they being the weakest links in the cover up could be discovered and expose those involved?
High level cover up means just that, not just the crime on the ground, physical evidence etc, but all the subsequent investigations and evidence. Even control of the media narrative. Now many would say, Mr Hall as well I would suspect, that most of these things did happen and therefore are indicative of the high level cover up. Except for the glaring theory he has about Madeleine's body still being in the back of a hire car. It's just not the way cover ups are done.
Any way, I continue to watch his videos with great interest
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 09, 2017, 10:29:09 AM
I have been slowly going through Mr Hall's videos on You Tube and looked at his website. His other videos aside which have no bearing on Madeleine's case, he does put together what information he has and presents it concisely. I can understand why many people favour these videos over others as a top down four hour overview of the case.
Having said that I do feel that Mr Hall is being pulled off in a certain direction which leaves him open to close scrutiny that doesn't add up. For example, his theory is that Madeleine died, a high level cover up ensued which led to Madeleine's body being hidden and then stored in the new hire car some two weeks later. I hope I have summerised his theory correctly. Here is where I have a disagreement with Mr Hall's conclusion. If a high level cover up was being carried out, is it likely that the parents would be left to conceal, hold and dispose of the body knowing that at any time, they being the weakest links in the cover up could be discovered and expose those involved?
High level cover up means just that, not just the crime on the ground, physical evidence etc, but all the subsequent investigations and evidence. Even control of the media narrative. Now many would say, Mr Hall as well I would suspect, that most of these things did happen and therefore are indicative of the high level cover up. Except for the glaring theory he has about Madeleine's body still being in the back of a hire car. It's just not the way cover ups are done.
Any way, I continue to watch his videos with great interest
You only need to watch the same one twice to get your 8 hours sleep.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 10:39:20 AM
You only need to watch the same one twice to get your 8 hours sleep.
They are long but I am prepared to believe that he is doing what he believes to be a complete overview. I think he mentions this several times in presentations he has done.
The problem is I still feel, despite his research that he is not thinking through his theory to a realistic conclusion. I think if I was to meet Mr Hall, my first question would be what is his understanding of the mechanics of a high level cover up and what cover ups he has studied to draw comparisons.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 09, 2017, 10:43:01 AM
They are long but I am prepared to believe that he is doing what he believes to be a complete overview. I think he mentions this several times in presentations he has done.
The problem is I still feel, despite his research that he is not thinking through his theory to a realistic conclusion. I think if I was to meet Mr Hall, my first question would be what is his understanding of the mechanics of a high level cover up and what cover ups he has studied to draw comparisons.
Good luck at getting in contact with him.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 10:56:36 AM
Is he a hard man to pin down? I do remember he made some reference to being interviewed by a freelance journalist that he turned down due to his conditions not being met.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 09, 2017, 12:13:38 PM
I have been slowly going through Mr Hall's videos on You Tube and looked at his website. His other videos aside which have no bearing on Madeleine's case, he does put together what information he has and presents it concisely. I can understand why many people favour these videos over others as a top down four hour overview of the case.
Having said that I do feel that Mr Hall is being pulled off in a certain direction which leaves him open to close scrutiny that doesn't add up. For example, his theory is that Madeleine died, a high level cover up ensued which led to Madeleine's body being hidden and then stored in the new hire car some two weeks later. I hope I have summerised his theory correctly. Here is where I have a disagreement with Mr Hall's conclusion. If a high level cover up was being carried out, is it likely that the parents would be left to conceal, hold and dispose of the body knowing that at any time, they being the weakest links in the cover up could be discovered and expose those involved?
High level cover up means just that, not just the crime on the ground, physical evidence etc, but all the subsequent investigations and evidence. Even control of the media narrative. Now many would say, Mr Hall as well I would suspect, that most of these things did happen and therefore are indicative of the high level cover up. Except for the glaring theory he has about Madeleine's body still being in the back of a hire car. It's just not the way cover ups are done.
Any way, I continue to watch his videos with great interest
Well done, you! I did try ... but found it impossible. I forget now what the first inaccuracy in his narrative was that made my lip curl ... but by the time he had chalked up two or three in a very short space of time, I decided I'd had enough.
I think you have hit precisely on the nub of the myth making bang on.
If these people so beloved of conspiracy theorists really do exist and have the capabilities they are believed to possess ... why on earth have we even heard of Madeleine McCann?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 12:25:43 PM
If these people so beloved of conspiracy theorists really do exist and have the capabilities they are believed to possess ... why on earth have we even heard of Madeleine McCann?
Exactly, most of the cover ups that we now know of are carried out with ruthless efficiency, and those are the ones that have been made public for whatever reason.
A small group of people in the past have had all sorts of theories including she never existed can you believe, that and she was cloned from WW2 technology. The mind boggles it really does
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: G-Unit on March 09, 2017, 01:38:34 PM
Exactly, most of the cover ups that we now know of are carried out with ruthless efficiency, and those are the ones that have been made public for whatever reason.
A small group of people in the past have had all sorts of theories including she never existed can you believe, that and she was cloned from WW2 technology. The mind boggles it really does
In two cases which spring to mind; Jimmy Savile and Hillsborough, the police have been remiss. If the police don't investigate and no-one makes them that seems to be all that's needed. Savile's behaviour was 'an open secret' since the 1960's.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Brietta on March 09, 2017, 02:06:39 PM
Exactly, most of the cover ups that we now know of are carried out with ruthless efficiency, and those are the ones that have been made public for whatever reason.
A small group of people in the past have had all sorts of theories including she never existed can you believe, that and she was cloned from WW2 technology. The mind boggles it really does
When it boils down to it I'm a conspiracy theorist of the first degree concerning everything and anything on initial exposure to the 'evidence' presented. I do go further than that though and read further into it. Disappointingly in almost one hundred percent of cases, few real conspiracy theories stand up to close scrutiny.
There isn't really much excuse for people like Richard Hall to perpetuate myth and misconception. Particularly if it causes harm. I think part of their research must include what goes down well with their target audience and they play to that.
These Madeleine 'experts' seem to promise great expectations ... but in my experience deliver none.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 09, 2017, 02:10:19 PM
When it boils down to it I'm a conspiracy theorist of the first degree concerning everything and anything on initial exposure to the 'evidence' presented. I do go further than that though and read further into it. Disappointingly in almost one hundred percent of cases, few real conspiracy theories stand up to close scrutiny.
There isn't really much excuse for people like Richard Hall to perpetuate myth and misconception. Particularly if it causes harm. I think part of their research must include what goes down well with their target audience and they play to that.
These Madeleine 'experts' seem to promise great expectations ... but in my experience deliver none.
So just like abduction Brietta.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 03:10:31 PM
There isn't really much excuse for people like Richard Hall to perpetuate myth and misconception. Particularly if it causes harm. I think part of their research must include what goes down well with their target audience and they play to that.
Have to agree here as if you take a look at some of the other topics Mr Hall takes an interest in, they are deep core conspiracy.
And lets be honest, Madeleine's case has had it's fair share of deep core conspiracies
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 09, 2017, 03:58:19 PM
Have to agree here as if you take a look at some of the other topics Mr Hall takes an interest in, they are deep core conspiracy.
And lets be honest, Madeleine's case has had it's fair share of deep core conspiracies
You mean like those McCann supporters who Believe Madeleine was the sign of/or the second coming, and that some of them came form the bloodline of Jesus ? @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 04:46:51 PM
You mean like those McCann supporters who Believe Madeleine was the sign of/or the second coming, and that some of them came form the bloodline of Jesus ? @)(++(* @)(++(*
Sorry to have to correct you on this one but I am fairly confident that the initial conspiracy that Madeleine was blood line came from those who believed her parents were covering a crime up. It was a very convoluted theory that began on the Mirror forum and then took off on a private forum. To be brief, the conspiracy was hatched in an attempt to make Mr and Mrs McCann look less religious because they had offered Madeleine for a sacrifice to appease some deity, and as such could not be Catholics. I'm not too sure but I think it was the Masons who were involved with it as well but I could be wrong. Either way, that theory definitely started with people who did not believe the McCanns.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 09, 2017, 04:49:23 PM
You mean like those McCann supporters who Believe Madeleine was the sign of/or the second coming, and that some of them came form the bloodline of Jesus ? @)(++(* @)(++(*
If you took that example a bit further the [ censored word] would become the Antichrist.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 09, 2017, 05:00:43 PM
Sorry to have to correct you on this one but I am fairly confident that the initial conspiracy that Madeleine was blood line came from those who believed her parents were covering a crime up. It was a very convoluted theory that began on the Mirror forum and then took off on a private forum. To be brief, the conspiracy was hatched in an attempt to make Mr and Mrs McCann look less religious because they had offered Madeleine for a sacrifice to appease some deity, and as such could not be Catholics. I'm not too sure but I think it was the Masons who were involved with it as well but I could be wrong. Either way, that theory definitely started with people who did not believe the McCanns.
I suggest you look at Nigel Nessling's blogs for that, and his followers. *&*%£
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: The Singularity on March 09, 2017, 05:04:20 PM
I suggest you look at Nigel Nessling's blogs for that, and his followers. *&*%£
I don't need to, I am familiar with Vee8's comments and thoughts. However as I said, the initial conspiracy regardless of Vee8's later contribution was started by people who questioned Madeleine's parents honesty.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 09, 2017, 05:05:45 PM
I don't need to, I am familiar with Vee8's comments and thoughts. However as I said, the initial conspiracy regardless of Vee8's later contribution was started by people who questioned Madeleine's parents honesty.
Do you have a link ?
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 09, 2017, 05:10:04 PM
To the Mirror forum? I'm afraid that forum was taken down many, many years ago. So far I have not managed to find any archive sites containing it's data.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 09, 2017, 06:24:31 PM
I follow the Lord, if that is who you are talking about.
Nope.
Nessling and his merry band.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Alfie on March 09, 2017, 06:55:53 PM
Does Nessling have a "Merry Band" who all believe that Madeleine is the Second Coming? I was under the impression that he ploughed a lonely furrow as far as that theory was concerned.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: stephen25000 on March 09, 2017, 07:01:19 PM
Does Nessling have a "Merry Band" who all believe that Madeleine is the Second Coming? I was under the impression that he ploughed a lonely furrow as far as that theory was concerned.
Well, he had his followers.
I believe Sadie supports him as well.
Title: Re: Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 09, 2017, 07:08:26 PM