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Hi all,
I am opening this topic to gather "charity collectors" data from April and May, 2007. Thanks in advance for your comments.
I have four well established cases. The location of one case is doubtful.
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Hi all,
I am opening this topic to gather "charity collectors" data from April and May, 2007. Thanks in advance for your comments.
I have four well established cases. The location of one case is doubtful.
The only one I can find is this ... don't know if it has any relevance.
**Snip
Today we can reveal that the worrying incident happened early in spring 2007 at a rented villa which overlooks a large expanse of wasteland in Praia da Luz on the Algarve which was searched this summer by Met search specialists and sniffer dogs.
The woman was surprised by a knock at the door from a lone conman who said he was collecting money for a nearby orphanage, which doesn’t exist.
http://yournewswire.com/mum-in-portugal-says-conman-tried-to-snatch-child-weeks-before-maddie/
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The only one I can find is this ... don't know if it has any relevance.
**Snip
Today we can reveal that the worrying incident happened early in spring 2007 at a rented villa which overlooks a large expanse of wasteland in Praia da Luz on the Algarve which was searched this summer by Met search specialists and sniffer dogs.
The woman was surprised by a knock at the door from a lone conman who said he was collecting money for a nearby orphanage, which doesn’t exist.
http://yournewswire.com/mum-in-portugal-says-conman-tried-to-snatch-child-weeks-before-maddie/
Thank you Brietta. I had this incident. "Early Spring" is from March 20 to April 20. Right? Do you have any additional detail about this incident? Date? Place?
From article I am imagining this zone ...
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Thank you Brietta. I had this incident. "Early Spring" is from March 20 to April 20. Right? Do you have any additional detail about this incident? Date? Place?
From article I am imagining this zone ...
The only address I can find is ...
**Snip
On the day that Madeleine disappeared, there were four occasions where bogus charity collectors targeted properties in the area.
There are also two e-fits of Portuguese men – one aged 40 to 45, who knocked on the door of the apartment where the McCanns were to stay on April 25 or 26 between 2.30pm and 3pm, saying that he was a charity collector.
The other, aged 25 to 30, approached a property on the Rua do Ramalhete, near the Ocean Club, at around 4pm on May 3.
https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2013/10/15/police-pleased-after-madeleine-mccann-appeal/
I don't know which one it is but it isn't Gail Cooper's encounter as her address given in the files is Beladea, Monte Lemos, Lote 14, Luz, Algarve.
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Charity collection seems to be a standard out here. I was approached on 3 times by a total of 4 individuals doing door-to-door collections for charity in a period of about 2 years.
The things in common were -
- the orphanage was in Espiche. AFAIK there is no orphanage in or around Espiche.
- there was a guarantee that if I donated, we would not get another request for a year.
- ID was that which you could knock up in 5 minutes, and was flashed around for perhaps 5 seconds.
The centre of Luz with individual villas seems to be the hunting ground. We currently live at the top of one the steepest hills in Luz, and we have not had a charity collector in the 2 years plus we have been here.
There is an orphanage in Lagos. It does really good work. We have never had a door-to-door collector asking for money for the Lagos orphanage.
There is a large set up in W Luz called NECI. It looks after children with learning disabilities. Despite living next to it, we were never asked for a donation to NECI.
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Charity collection seems to be a standard out here. I was approached on 3 times by a total of 4 individuals doing door-to-door collections for charity in a period of about 2 years.
The things in common were -
- the orphanage was in Espiche. AFAIK there is no orphanage in or around Espiche.
- there was a guarantee that if I donated, we would not get another request for a year.
- ID was that which you could knock up in 5 minutes, and was flashed around for perhaps 5 seconds.
The centre of Luz with individual villas seems to be the hunting ground. We currently live at the top of one the steepest hills in Luz, and we have not had a charity collector in the 2 years plus we have been here.
There is an orphanage in Lagos. It does really good work. We have never had a door-to-door collector asking for money for the Lagos orphanage.
There is a large set up in W Luz called NECI. It looks after children with learning disabilities. Despite living next to it, we were never asked for a donation to NECI.
Very interesting Shining. So Charity Collectors seems to be a lot of different people. A classical fraud. Off topic: I was talking with people from NECI, and have taken a couple of pics with the children. They are doing a great job in Luz.
Nevertheless, I think there are two cases of Charity Collectors which may be linked to Madeleine: Gordon and Morgan.
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@Shining may I ask was there a language communication issue when you spoke with these charity collectors?
Did you clearly understand every word of their english or was it sometimes unclear?
BTW there is a completely genuine Espiche connection.
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Fake charity collectors are after money not kids.
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"He then went on to tell me about an English family that had been killed on the EN125 motor way 3 days prior and that three children from that family had been looked after by the orphanage" (GC statement)
The witness did not understand the collector's english, and managed to provide the worst mistranslation in this entire case, getting every detail drastically wrong. In fact the collector was relating a true and inspiring story.
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@Shining may I ask was there a language communication issue when you spoke with these charity collectors?
Did you clearly understand every word of their english or was it sometimes unclear?
BTW there is a completely genuine Espiche connection.
"BTW there is a completely genuine Espiche connection."
Could you provide a source? Thanks.
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"BTW there is a completely genuine Espiche connection."
Could you provide a source? Thanks.
There are many sources Heri. The collectors were refering to Barão de São João (see IM statement) which Brit tourists don't know where it is so the collectors were describing it as on the other side of Espiche. The collectors were telling the truth. There are two important and valid orphanage connections to BdSJ. First the whole inspiration for one charity resulted from a tragic accident near BdSJ 3 years earlier (not 3 days, and GC got every other detail wrong too). Second, that charity organised a 3-day camping and horse riding trip to BdSJ the previous year for children from Lagos state-run children's home (collectors were showing photos of this trip).
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BTW in their obsession with charity collectors PJ and LP and SY overlook a potentially important observation at end of morgan statement. Did they ever bother asking the witness the exact location and the exact time the witness saw it open? It would only take about 10 minutes with streetview
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@Heri
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/lagos-orphans-spoilt-by-silves-entrepreneurs/21033
(Pegasus likes to make you Google. If you follow the trail there are some interesting people connections)
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And the accident that inspired it (which GC got so jumbled up) was near BdSJ (other side of Espiche) see only the last few lines of http://portugalresident.com/couple-killed-in-motor-accident-in-vila-do-bispo
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March 2007 Faro and Lagos fake collectors http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/charity-fraudsters-use-orphans-for-money/22025
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@Shining may I ask was there a language communication issue when you spoke with these charity collectors?
Did you clearly understand every word of their english or was it sometimes unclear?
BTW there is a completely genuine Espiche connection.
Of the 4 men involved, one checked first that I spoke English, then summoned a man he was with. I don't know how good/bad the first person's English was.
The other 3 I would rate as fluent, but with pronunciation typical of someone whose first language is Portuguese. There wasn't any pause to think, grammar was good, and they were happy to wander onto unconnected topics, so it wasn't a 'script'.
The incidents were 5+ years after M so there is no reason to think there is a direct connection. It just appears to be a standard con.
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BTW in their obsession with charity collectors PJ and LP and SY overlook a potentially important observation at end of morgan statement. Did they ever bother asking the witness the exact location and the exact time the witness saw it open? It would only take about 10 minutes with streetview
The Morgan statement dates to Jan 08. The first StreetView of Luz is dated Aug 09, so that approach did not exist at the time.
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In any case i find the following of interest to the investigation ...
- Gordon CC visit at 5A related to Madeleine in space.
- Gordon CC visit at 5A related to Fenn theft attempt in space and time.
- Morgan CC visit at Casa da Aventura related to Madeleine in space and time.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2015/07/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-iris-and.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2015/07/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-iris-and.html)
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Could someone care to explain the relevance of this thread ?
Other than a presumed attempt to tie in a mystery, false, charity worker.
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I am not able to find an accident leaving orphans relating to Gail Cooper CC incident, neither in 2004 nor in 2007.
Also Rosco Foundation never had an orphanage at Barão de São João. They worked with Lagos orphanage.
http://roscofoundation.org/contact.asp (http://roscofoundation.org/contact.asp)
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Could someone care to explain the relevance of this thread ?
Other than a presumed attempt to tie in a mystery, false, charity worker.
Now what's that saying? - oh yes, 'no stone left unturned' - Even if it turns out to be a total red herring.
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Now what's that saying? - oh yes, 'no stone left unturned' - Even if it turns out to be a total red herring.
Or pilchard of course. 8)-)))
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Now what's that saying? - oh yes, 'no stone left unturned' - Even if it turns out to be a total red herring.
It's an absolute nonsense to think a burglar would make himself known to an intended victim just before he burgled them.
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Could someone care to explain the relevance of this thread ?
Other than a presumed attempt to tie in a mystery, false, charity worker.
I believe the relevance of the thread may be something to do with the well publicised Operation Grange request for information which may lead to solving what happened to Madeleine McCann.
**Snip
Police probing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal say there was an "overwhelming response" to an appeal on the BBC's Crimewatch, with almost 1,000 calls and emails.
Officers suggested the 2007 case bore hallmarks of a "pre-planned abduction".
Scotland Yard said it was also looking into possible links to burglaries and bogus charity collections in the area.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24530186
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Financial scamming of tourists is a long way from both burglary and child stealing.
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Financial scamming of tourists is a long way from both burglary and child stealing.
The occurrences were recorded by independent witnesses who were under no obligation to report them to the police; the police are the agency to determine their relevance or not and how these statements may tie in with other statements and intelligence to which they are privy but we are not.
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It's an absolute nonsense to think a burglar would make himself known to an intended victim just before he burgled them.
Quite. However, one might visit say a month or two in advance, to gain some intelligence, then return when the first visit was forgotten.
My interest in this topic is actually getting a better handle on the crime pattern in Luz in the months leading up to Madeleine's disappearance. DCI Redwood seemed remarkably vague about the specifics.
It also appears to be relevant to ask how much local knowledge of Luz these collecters had. If it is the case that these people were local, and into petty crime, then they might either be involved in other local crimes, or have some knowledge of those who were.
It is the paucity of accurate information in the public domain that bothers me. We can leave this aspect to OG and hope they are better informed than we are, or we can put collective heads together to see what we come up with.
I am also interested in what possible information could have been put to the judiciary to get the 4 men of July 2014 made arguidos. There appears to be a potential link to charity collection. That OG info could be correct or incorrect, but it seems to have been strong enough to slap arguido on the quartet. I believe that particular bar is set higher than it was in Amaral's day.
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Financial scamming of tourists is a long way from both burglary and child stealing.
It is so too but carried out by folk of all makes and shapes in the right village spanning the right time so it must be connected. O.G were interested in it so presumably are still investigating chuggers and chammers nearly three years down the track which means it must be awfully complicated and far reaching.
I guess the discredited original investigation looked at it and filed it in the cylindrical filing cabinet.
Idle thought: do criminals change their " criminal occupation specialism" on spec like they change their socks as has been suggested by some?
In that case I'll follow the same line . Today I am a filing clerk tomorrow I will be brain surgeon.
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It is so too but carried out by folk of all makes and shapes in the right village spanning the right time so it must be connected. O.G were interested in it so presumably are still investigating chuggers and chammers nearly three years down the track which means it must be awfully complicated and far reaching.
I guess the discredited original investigation looked at it and filed it in the cylindrical filing cabinet.
Idle thought: do criminals change their " criminal occupation specialism" on spec like they change their socks as has been suggested by some?
In that case I'll follow the same line . Today I am a filing clerk tomorrow I will be brain surgeon.
I suppose a cat burglar who develops arthritis might have to look for alternative employment.
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I believe the relevance of the thread may be something to do with the well publicised Operation Grange request for information which may lead to solving what happened to Madeleine McCann.
**Snip
Police probing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal say there was an "overwhelming response" to an appeal on the BBC's Crimewatch, with almost 1,000 calls and emails.
Officers suggested the 2007 case bore hallmarks of a "pre-planned abduction".
Scotland Yard said it was also looking into possible links to burglaries and bogus charity collections in the area.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24530186
Or, of course, merely another red herring, Or should I say sardine, going absolutely nowhere.
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I suppose a cat burglar who develops arthritis might have to look for alternative employment.
Ah yes, he/she will become the recruiter and trainer, sticking to well know burglar tactics: stay out of sight, don't look like a swathy type hanging out side apartments in broad daylight while casing a joint, steal anything worth money ie watches, wallets, cash and 3 year olds who are sleeping in a bed- best to carry drugs in case it wakes up...
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It's an absolute nonsense to think a burglar would make himself known to an intended victim just before he burgled them.
The person ''making himself known'' at the door, does not automatically have to be the same person who later carries out a burglary.
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The person ''making himself known'' at the door, does not automatically have to be the same person who later carries out a burglary.
because....?
Oh because if they were identified the police would not bother to find out who the 'friends/associates are? ok I get it.. N I C E .
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because....?
Oh because if they were identified the police would not bother to find out who the 'friends/associates are? ok I get it.. N I C E .
I think The Police have already done that with the Cell Phone Data.
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Please read about the criminological concepts of "criminal versatility", "crime escalation", "criminal career" and "self control".
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Please read about the criminological concepts of "criminal versatility", "crime escalation", "criminal career" and "self control".
Please read about clutching at straws, reinventing organised child abductors behaviours,clinging to any person being guilty apart from the parents...
Yes, Elle I know, I was just pointing out the absurdity of child abductors sending friends out to case joints out in the open and showing themsleves to potential witneses. Meh!
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The person ''making himself known'' at the door, does not automatically have to be the same person who later carries out a burglary.
This could degenerate into one of Melissa Henkin's Cooperative Learning lessons. See "The Draw Buy & Build The Monster Game". It can be a bit hit and miss so I doubt burgulaas use it to any great effect.
"The looker is the only group member who can view the Mystery Monster created by the teacher, which will be kept in a secluded area hidden from the rest of the members in the different groups (e.g. hallway).
The walker(s) will go between the looker and the drawer. The walker(s) will verbally communicate with the looker who will describe what the Mystery Monster looks like explaining the shapes and colors of the pieces and how they are put together. The looker and the walker(s) will engage in two-way communication in order for the looker to explain what the Mystery Monster looks like to the walker(s).
The walker(s) will then go to the drawer and explain how the looker described the Mystery Monster. The walker(s) and the drawer will engage in a one-way communication process. The walker(s) will relay the information from the looker to the drawer so the drawer can sketch the Mystery Monster on the piece of paper based on the description. The drawer may not talk to the walker(s). The walker(s) may make suggestions or verbal corrections to the drawer based on how the drawer is sketching the Mystery Monster.
The drawer will then engage in non-verbal communication with the buyer. The buyer will look at the drawer�s sketch of the Mystery Monster and go to a table that is set up with the Toobers and Zots from the building kits. The buyer will choose the pieces he/she perceives as necessary to construct the Mystery Monster. The drawer and the buyer cannot talk to each other.
The buyer will bring the pieces to the builder and explain how the builder should construct the Mystery Monster. The buyer and the builder will engage in two-way communication. The builder and the buyer can talk to each other but only the builder can construct the Mystery Monster".
http://www.users.miamioh.edu/shermalw/edp621_CL-lessons-sm02/henkins_lesson_621sm02.htm
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I've played those games on management courses.
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Please read about clutching at straws, reinventing organised child abductors behaviours,clinging to any person being guilty apart from the parents...
Yes, Elle I know, I was just pointing out the absurdity of child abductors sending friends out to case joints out in the open and showing themsleves to potential witneses. Meh!
This is not absurd at all. People still don't realise the importance of phone data, and certainly not then.
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When someone talks about a criminal, he only mentions the worst crime, for example, homicide.
But the "homicide" passed before a chain of less serious crimes, from scam to burglary to robbery to more violent crimes.
Also, a burglar can kill for trying not to be cathced.
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If I recall correctly, there was someone on here who was confident that phone records would solve the mystery.
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This could degenerate into one of Melissa Henkin's Cooperative Learning lessons. See "The Draw Buy & Build The Monster Game". It can be a bit hit and miss so I doubt burgulaas use it to any great effect.
"The looker is the only group member who can view the Mystery Monster created by the teacher, which will be kept in a secluded area hidden from the rest of the members in the different groups (e.g. hallway).
The walker(s) will go between the looker and the drawer. The walker(s) will verbally communicate with the looker who will describe what the Mystery Monster looks like explaining the shapes and colors of the pieces and how they are put together. The looker and the walker(s) will engage in two-way communication in order for the looker to explain what the Mystery Monster looks like to the walker(s).
The walker(s) will then go to the drawer and explain how the looker described the Mystery Monster. The walker(s) and the drawer will engage in a one-way communication process. The walker(s) will relay the information from the looker to the drawer so the drawer can sketch the Mystery Monster on the piece of paper based on the description. The drawer may not talk to the walker(s). The walker(s) may make suggestions or verbal corrections to the drawer based on how the drawer is sketching the Mystery Monster.
The drawer will then engage in non-verbal communication with the buyer. The buyer will look at the drawer�s sketch of the Mystery Monster and go to a table that is set up with the Toobers and Zots from the building kits. The buyer will choose the pieces he/she perceives as necessary to construct the Mystery Monster. The drawer and the buyer cannot talk to each other.
The buyer will bring the pieces to the builder and explain how the builder should construct the Mystery Monster. The buyer and the builder will engage in two-way communication. The builder and the buyer can talk to each other but only the builder can construct the Mystery Monster".
http://www.users.miamioh.edu/shermalw/edp621_CL-lessons-sm02/henkins_lesson_621sm02.htm
Ahhh but would the groups being identified as the abductors have the brains to play this well organised game
Group 1. Swathy gypsy types
Groupd 2. Well at heel, wealthy paedophiles
Group 3. Jew stealing nazis- associated with the Masons/knights Templar
Group 4. charity workers by day- child slave capturers by night types
have I missed any out?
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If I recall correctly, there was someone on here who was confident that phone records would solve the mystery.
It still could. Are those three still Arguidos?
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This is not absurd at all. People still don't realise the importance of phone data, and certainly not then.
I was replying to Herberto J....not about phone data.
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I was replying to Herberto J....not about phone data.
I was replying to Jassi.
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I was replying to Jassi.
Confuzzled...
My post...
Please read about clutching at straws, reinventing organised child abductors behaviours,clinging to any person being guilty apart from the parents...
Yes, Elle I know, I was just pointing out the absurdity of child abductors sending friends out to case joints out in the open and showing themsleves to potential witneses. Meh!
Your reply to my post...
This is not absurd at all. People still don't realise the importance of phone data, and certainly not then.
R
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If I recall correctly, there was someone on here who was confident that phone records would solve the mystery.
They clearly never watched the Jason Bourne trilogy and/or remained unaware of burner phones.
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This could degenerate into one of Melissa Henkin's Cooperative Learning lessons. See "The Draw Buy & Build The Monster Game". It can be a bit hit and miss so I doubt burgulaas use it to any great effect.
"The looker is the only group member who can view the Mystery Monster created by the teacher, which will be kept in a secluded area hidden from the rest of the members in the different groups (e.g. hallway).
The walker(s) will go between the looker and the drawer. The walker(s) will verbally communicate with the looker who will describe what the Mystery Monster looks like explaining the shapes and colors of the pieces and how they are put together. The looker and the walker(s) will engage in two-way communication in order for the looker to explain what the Mystery Monster looks like to the walker(s).
The walker(s) will then go to the drawer and explain how the looker described the Mystery Monster. The walker(s) and the drawer will engage in a one-way communication process. The walker(s) will relay the information from the looker to the drawer so the drawer can sketch the Mystery Monster on the piece of paper based on the description. The drawer may not talk to the walker(s). The walker(s) may make suggestions or verbal corrections to the drawer based on how the drawer is sketching the Mystery Monster.
The drawer will then engage in non-verbal communication with the buyer. The buyer will look at the drawer�s sketch of the Mystery Monster and go to a table that is set up with the Toobers and Zots from the building kits. The buyer will choose the pieces he/she perceives as necessary to construct the Mystery Monster. The drawer and the buyer cannot talk to each other.
The buyer will bring the pieces to the builder and explain how the builder should construct the Mystery Monster. The buyer and the builder will engage in two-way communication. The builder and the buyer can talk to each other but only the builder can construct the Mystery Monster".
http://www.users.miamioh.edu/shermalw/edp621_CL-lessons-sm02/henkins_lesson_621sm02.htm
In a nutshell, a little bonkers.
Bit like Sadies idea that the colour of the waste bin on the beach in some photo was a sign, perpetrators must have had to go B and Q to get an assorted collection of different coloured bins, to relay various messages if appropriate to a boatman, soz Sadie, it is....
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I am not able to find an accident leaving orphans relating to Gail Cooper CC incident, neither in 2004 nor in 2007.
Also Rosco Foundation never had an orphanage at Barão de São João. They worked with Lagos orphanage.
http://roscofoundation.org/contact.asp (http://roscofoundation.org/contact.asp)
GC had problems understanding, and totally garbled the true story the collecter told her Heri.
GC: "Espiche"
Fact: Beyond Espiche.
GC: "... family that had been killed"
Fact: tragically one teenager was killed, his motorbike came off the road and hit an olive tree near BdSJ.
GC: "english family"
Fact: one member of a dutch-english family.
GC: "three days prior"
Fact: three years prior
GC: "three children from that family had been looked after by the orphanage"
Fact: the accident victim left three younger siblings who continued to live with their parents. Friends/family to create something positive then started the charity which raises money to help children in childrens homes and orphanages.
It is clear that GC misunderstood the collector's poor english. If you insist on treating GC's limited understanding as exact fact you will never find an accident that matches Heri.
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The Morgan statement dates to Jan 08. The first StreetView of Luz is dated Aug 09, so that approach did not exist at the time.
I mean now (March 2016) Shining - the current active investigation - it would be the most efficient method to simply take a good laptop with mobile internet connection and ask the witness to identify exactly which manhole was open. You can see every manhole on streetview - their covers may have been replaced since, but their locations have not. This is not either of the two trenches (they were checked), this is an open manhole. On topic because it is in a statement primarily about charity collectors.
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I mean now (March 2016) Shining - the current active investigation - it would be the most efficient method to simply take a good laptop with mobile internet connection and ask the witness to identify exactly which manhole was open. You can see every manhole on streetview - their covers may have been replaced since, but their locations have not. This is not either of the two trenches (they were checked), this is an open manhole. On topic because it is in a statement primarily about charity collectors.
I am wondering if the Morgan are still living there. We have the address.
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I am wondering if the Morgan are still living there. We have the address.
They are still listed at a UK address @2015. SY will have spoken to them.
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Possibly they may still have both addresses, CdA in PDL, and south coast UK which Misty mentions.
Certainly if practical SY must have spoken to them in detail re the charity collectors because we know Mr Redwood did a large amount of investigation into charity collectors.
But my question is, did SY pay any attention at all to the thing mentioned at the end of that statement?
And did they get its exact location?
BTW in another case a manhole cover was in the early search observed to be open by only 10cm, and it turned out eventually to be the solution.
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The head of the relevant charity stated that they never do door-to-door collections. So let's look at the possibility these were fake collectors, nothing to do with the real charity.
If they were fake, they had done a bit of research and downloaded some relevant information and photos and done printouts of photos to show people they approached.
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I already posted about fake collectors claiming to be collecting for Refúgio Aboim Asenção.
In Lagos (very close to PDL) the two men were accompanied by a woman. This was March 2007. http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/charity-fraudsters-use-orphans-for-money/22025
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The person ''making himself known'' at the door, does not automatically have to be the same person who later carries out a burglary.
So what does he learn by knocking at the door Benice ?
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I mean now (March 2016) Shining - the current active investigation - it would be the most efficient method to simply take a good laptop with mobile internet connection and ask the witness to identify exactly which manhole was open. You can see every manhole on streetview - their covers may have been replaced since, but their locations have not. This is not either of the two trenches (they were checked), this is an open manhole. On topic because it is in a statement primarily about charity collectors.
Sorry, didn't twig.
We have not a lot of idea about what OG has and has not done. I wonder if HOLMES 2 flags 'open manhole' as an action point? Though technically, 'open manhole' does not fit an abduction remit.
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The head of the relevant charity stated that they never do door-to-door collections. So let's look at the possibility these were fake collectors, nothing to do with the real charity.
If they were fake, they had done a bit of research and downloaded some relevant information and photos and done printouts of photos to show people they approached.
Hmmmm. Not adverse to setting up a GoFundMe appeal, though. &%+((£
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Hmmmm. Not adverse to setting up a GoFundMe appeal, though. &%+((£
The 3 fake charity collectors who were in Lagos one day in March 2007 falsely claiming to be collecting for a children's home in Faro did not have a gfm appeal Misty. And if there were fake charity collectors in PDL in early May 2007 they certainly did not have a gfm appeal.
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The 3 fake charity collectors who were in Lagos one day in March 2007 falsely claiming to be collecting for a children's home in Faro did not have a gfm appeal Misty. And if there were fake charity collectors in PDL in early May 2007 they certainly did not have a gfm appeal.
No, I appreciate all that, Pegasus.
There are, however, certainly some names who have some sort of tenuous link to the charity which set alarm bells ringing. Access to children who no longer are with family for whatever reason. Something & nothing, maybe.
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Sorry, didn't twig.
We have not a lot of idea about what OG has and has not done. I wonder if HOLMES 2 flags 'open manhole' as an action point? Though technically, 'open manhole' does not fit an abduction remit.
It's interesting to try to work out the location from the witness statement. On a road running parallel to supermarket - that could be Martins or Teixeira. And near to apartment and tapas - that would would narrow it down to just Martins. And at a junction - so at a junction on Martins?
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Looking at the hypothesis of fake door-to-door charity collectors who might hypothetically also do burglaries of properties where there was no answer at the door because everyone's out, are there any known cases of that, any country?
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Looking at the hypothesis of fake door-to-door charity collectors who might hypothetically also do burglaries of properties where there was no answer at the door because everyone's out, are there any known cases of that, any country?
http://www.thecomet.net/news/conman_who_targeted_elderly_residents_in_letchworth_and_baldock_jailed_for_disgusting_crimes_1_2943055
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Thanks Misty.
Hypothetically, what if a pair of fake charity collectors knocked on 5A door after 8.30pm? What would have happened next?
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Thanks Misty.
Hypothetically, what if a pair of fake charity collectors knocked on 5A door after 8.30pm? What would happen?
What time after 8.30 are you hypothesising?
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What time after 8.30 are you hypothesising?
For example 9.40 Misty.
Knock knock on wooden door ... what happens next?
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Scrub that last response.
What do we know about bogus charity collectors?
They operate during daylight business hours, to appear legitimate. After dark, people are much less likely to answer the door to a stranger so an attempted break-in is a risky prospect.
The collectors in Luz all operated during daylight hours. I don't remember any of those burgled at OCreportedly being visited by CC - I stand to be corrected.
Had collectors knocked on the door of 5a - is there a possibility Madeleine would have gone to the door & asked who was there, before opening the door? That doesn't explain the open shutter & window.
Had collectors knocked, no answer - I don't know. Why pick a cheap holiday apartment on a Thursday?
9.40? Approx 5 mins before JT walked back & through the car park & then ROB left 5D & walked back to Tapas.
Can't see it somehow.
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A burglary nearby was preceded by a stranger knocking at door, but with different excuse to charity collection.
What would have happened if anyone had knocked on 5A wooden door that evening while the adults were out?
IMO they would have got no response.
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A burglary nearby was preceded by a stranger knocking at door, but with different excuse to charity collection.
What would have happened if anyone had knocked on 5A wooden door that evening while the adults were out?
IMO they would have got no response.
Sorry - it's late - which burglary are you referring to & what was the method of entry?
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Sorry - it's late - which burglary are you referring to & what was the method of entry?
5L "On April 16, a British couple who had just arrived in the resort received a knock on the door from a fair-haired man who claimed to be looking for a German family. Hours later their apartment was burgled."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2460514/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-speak-delight-overwhelming-response-Crimewatch-reconstruction.html
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... 5L is on 2nd floor directly above 5H. Doors were locked, everyone was out for dinner, burglar got in, but there was no damage to doors or windows, therefore it's obvious that entry was through shuttered window without force IMO.
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http://www.thecomet.net/news/conman_who_targeted_elderly_residents_in_letchworth_and_baldock_jailed_for_disgusting_crimes_1_2943055
Is "The Comet" your local rag?
When I was one helluva a lot younger it was named "The Citizen".
Cor blimey what a small world.
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Is "The Comet" your local rag?
When I was one helluva a lot younger it was named "The Citizen".
Cor blimey what a small world.
LOL, no it's not my local rag. Google is such a useful tool.
I see Letchworth is also renowned for the presence of black squirrels, for anyone who is interested.
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LOL, no it's not my local rag. Google is such a useful tool.
I see Letchworth is also renowned for the presence of black squirrels, for anyone who is interested.
Also renowned for some strange religious sects; Baldock is renowned for Knights Templar. More importantly Baldock is renowned for the number of pubs there and of course for Jack who was a sort of 12th century chugger ( just to keep it on topic less or more).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_O'Legs
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... 5L is on 2nd floor directly above 5H. Doors were locked, everyone was out for dinner, burglar got in, but there was no damage to doors or windows, therefore it's obvious that entry was through shuttered window without force IMO.
Or the burglar had got hold of a front door key !
Had he got in thru the window, there would have been signs on the sills and fibres on the frame. Also finger prints all over the place.
It would be possible, given a key to get in via the front door without any finger prints. Just put the key in the lock, twist, then push the key. Door open, voila!
The departure could also be via the same route with a twisted key in the lock pulling the door closed
No need to touch the door either way, but practicing the technique before hand would have been a good idea.
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Or the burglar had got hold of a front door key !
Had he got in thru the window, there would have been signs on the sills and fibres on the frame. Also finger prints all over the place.
It would be possible, given a key to get in via the front door without any finger prints. Just put the key in the lock, twist, then push the key. Door open, voila!
The departure could also be via the same route with a twisted key in the lock pulling the door closed
No need to touch the door either way, but practicing the technique before hand would have been a good idea.
5L on second floor was entry via window IMO Sadie. Same as 5G on first floor, entry via window IMO. Opening method as in Heri video requires no key.
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5L on second floor was entry via window IMO Sadie. Same as 5G on first floor, entry via window IMO. Opening method as in Heri video requires no key.
I have pictures of 5L windows, without and with bars.
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5L on second floor was entry via window IMO Sadie. Same as 5G on first floor, entry via window IMO. Opening method as in Heri video requires no key.
Maybe, but I still prefer the doorway entrance with a key. Dunno about the pertinent window in 5L but the windiow to Madeleines bedroom would have been hellishly difficult to climb thru cos it was quite narrow... and there would have been scuff marks on the sills + fibres on the window frame. Also finger prints everywhere.
Doorway entrance using a key, can be achieved leaving no evidence what-so-ever.
I think someone on the staff of OC was easy at lending out keys, or the burglar was an OC employee.
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If burglars were using keys why didn't they open the windows and shutters to disguise the fact as has been suggested in the MBM case? Has anyone got any credible evidence that these burglaries happened in the apartments described? Apologies if I have overlooked the cites.
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(snip) Has anyone got any credible evidence that these burglaries happened in the apartments described? (snip)
Yes statement by employee who helped with insurance claim after burglary 5L (Proc II p344-5).
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Entry into 5G in Apr 2007 was through window.
Entry into 5L in Apr 2007 was through window.
The source is Metropolitan Police: http://web.archive.org/web/20150302140142/http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal/Madeleine-McCann-Appeal--October-2013/1400020463601/1257246745782
"Two of the burglaries in April were in Block 5 where Madeleine disappeared from. In both these burglaries entry was via a window "
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I have pictures of 5L windows, without and with bars.
Heri can you confirm that 5L has only one window accessible to burglar on external walkway / stairwell area please? If so that identifies exactly the window through which the burglar entered 5L.
And BTW 4A was burgled too did you know that? Interesting because it is a close replica of 5A.
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Heri can you confirm that 5L has only one window accessible to burglar on external walkway / stairwell area please? If so that identifies exactly the window through which the burglar entered 5L.
And BTW 4A was burgled too did you know that? Interesting because it is a close replica of 5A.
Here you have 4 pics of 5L, the first and the third are from the window i believed was used: http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2015/03/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-my.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2015/03/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-my.html)
Please send me the reference for 4A burglary.
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Please send me the reference for 4A burglary.
I will dig out some info for you Heri. BTW if you look on streetview notice that that the window of its north bedroom now has locking internal security bars and possibly an alarm sticker. This window is the exact equivalent of the same window at 5A.
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Heri it was in Feb, no sign of forced entry, loot was 2 mobiles 1 camera and some cash, and it happened at dusk.
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Heri it was in Feb, no sign of forced entry, loot was 2 mobiles 1 camera and some cash, and it happened at dusk.
Thanks Pegasus. Do you have a reference?
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Thanks Misty.
Hypothetically, what if a pair of fake charity collectors knocked on 5A door after 8.30pm? What would have happened next?
Hypothetically, They would have woken the children, unless the children were drugged as has been mentioned.
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Or the burglar had got hold of a front door key !
Had he got in thru the window, there would have been signs on the sills and fibres on the frame. Also finger prints all over the place.
It would be possible, given a key to get in via the front door without any finger prints. Just put the key in the lock, twist, then push the key. Door open, voila!
The departure could also be via the same route with a twisted key in the lock pulling the door closed
No need to touch the door either way, but practicing the technique before hand would have been a good idea.
Why bother with a front door key when you have already claimed it was an elite group who watched this family- with a view to abduct a child,they would know the door was left open for them to just walk in...
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Thanks Pegasus. Do you have a reference?
I can PM if briefly unblocked Heri
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Thanks Pegasus. Do you have a reference?
**Snip
Last updated at 06:59 21 August 2007
Another British holidaymaker, Ian Robertson, from Neyland in Pembrokeshire, South Wales, said he too was burgled at the Ocean Club complex, in February.
The thieves entered the property at dusk and stole two mobile phones, a camera and some money.
Mr Robertson said: "I have a feeling there has been a lot of this type of opportunistic burglary.
"It wouldn't surprise me because it's so wide open, so unprotected - could there have been an order to snatch a child?"
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-476689/Madeleines-parents-meet-Ken-Bigleys-brother-discuss-abduction-agony.html#ixzz44DsGtxRY
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I can PM if briefly unblocked Heri
OK.
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**Snip
Last updated at 06:59 21 August 2007
Another British holidaymaker, Ian Robertson, from Neyland in Pembrokeshire, South Wales, said he too was burgled at the Ocean Club complex, in February.
The thieves entered the property at dusk and stole two mobile phones, a camera and some money.
Mr Robertson said: "I have a feeling there has been a lot of this type of opportunistic burglary.
"It wouldn't surprise me because it's so wide open, so unprotected - could there have been an order to snatch a child?"
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-476689/Madeleines-parents-meet-Ken-Bigleys-brother-discuss-abduction-agony.html#ixzz44DsGtxRY
Yes, I knew this case, but ignored it was in 4A.
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Since then, the one burglar-accessible window of 5L, of 4A, and of 5A, have had metal security bars added.
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Hypothetically, They would have woken the children... (snip)
OK let's hypothesise someone (fake charity collector, or someone who wants to confirm everyone is out) knocks on 5A wooden door that evening, and let's assume the knock wakes the one mobile child, what happens next?
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OK let's hypothesise someone (fake charity collector, or someone who wants to confirm everyone is out) knocks on 5A wooden door that evening, and let's assume the knock wakes the one mobile child, what happens next?
They move on to the next block as the child would have set off an alarm perhaps? or they say lets go in and abduct a child.
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They move on to the next block as the child would have set off an alarm perhaps? or they say lets go in and abduct a child.
What happens immediately after the child hears the knock?
If it was me I would stay in bed and stay silent.
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What happens immediately after the child hears the knock?
If it was me I would stay in bed and stay silent.
The child would have assumed one of her parents would answer the door. She didn't know they were out of earshot.
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The child would have assumed one of her parents would answer the door. She didn't know they were out of earshot.
Ok, so someone (fake charity collector or someone wanting to confirm no-one is in) knocks on the door, no-one answers, there is silence. What happens next?
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Ok, so someone (fake charity collector or someone wanting to confirm no-one is in) knocks on the door, no-one answers, there is silence. What happens next?
The "someone" either goes away or seeks to gain entry.
(why pick on the apartment which is obviously occupied by young children?)
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The "someone" either goes away or seeks to gain entry.
(why pick on the apartment which is obviously occupied by young children?)
Perhaps they'd worked out somehow that at least two of the children wouldn't wake up no matter how much knocking they did?
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Ofcourse, if they were watching the apartments they would know:
1. parents were coming and going all night
2. a door was left unlocked
3. children were left alone and may wake up...
Interesting take on that G.
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I'll start again, what if someone, for example a bogus "charity collector", or a bogus "looking for the german family" person, who has NOT been staking out 5A or watching the family, knocks at the door that evening.
What happens next?
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I'll start again, what if someone, for example a bogus "charity collector", or a bogus "looking for the german family" person, who has NOT been staking out 5A or watching the family, knocks at the door that evening.
What happens next?
Children are wakened up and start crying... the bogus whoever wanders off looking for their next opportunity.
I know you said you would lie still and be quiet but the twins are babies they can't think like an older child.
Have you assertained what these charity bogus people are looking for? a chance to break in and steal valuables not children?
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Children are wakened up and start crying... the bogus whoever wanders off looking for their next opportunity.
I know you said you would lie still and be quiet but the twins are babies they can't think like an older child.
Have you assertained what these charity bogus people are looking for? a chance to break in and steal valuables not children?
Why would they cry just because someone knocked at the door? It's not a scary sound.
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Why would they cry just because someone knocked at the door? It's not a scary sound.
Not scary, but my youngest son who was a very light sleeper, woke up crying when our door bell rang!
ok scenario #2
nothing happens- they go in> see children sleeping >steal stuff and leave
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Not scary, but my youngest son who was a very light sleeper, woke up crying when our door bell rang!
ok scenario #2
nothing happens- they go in> see children sleeping >steal stuff and leave
In scenario 2, what if these bogus charity collectors, having got no response to their knock, open the shutter, and immediately see children inside?
What happens next?
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Fact: A very similar apartment was burgled earlier that year.
Deduction: 5A shutter was opened with intent to burgle.
Fact: Phones camera cash were missing at the similar apartment but not at 5A.
Deduction: 5A burglary was interrupted at the entry stage.
It's not rocket science.
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Fact: A very similar apartment was burgled earlier that year.
Deduction: 5A shutter was opened with intent to burgle.
Fact: Phones camera cash were missing at the similar apartment but not at 5A.
Deduction: 5A burglary was interrupted at the entry stage.
It's not rocket science.
Do we know how the burglar entered 4A?
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Do we know how the burglar entered 4A?
There was no damage to any doors or windows Brietta. Given that the Met have stated that entry at 5G and at 5L was through window, it is very likely IMO also at this block 4 ground floor apartment entry was through window.
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There was no damage to any doors or windows Brietta. Given that the Met have stated that entry at 5G and at 5L was through window, it is very likely IMO also at this block 4 ground floor apartment entry was through window.
Is it a mere coincidence that 3 of the burgled apartments were maintained by OC staff?
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Is it a mere coincidence that 3 of the burgled apartments were maintained by OC staff?
The only relevant connection is that all the burgled apartments in blocks 5 and 4 were constructed to the same specifications and therefore all had the same design of windows and the same design of window shutters, this combination is a gift to burglars see the easy opening method.
This has since been remedied at 5L by adding external bars to the accessible window, at that block 4 apartment by adding internal sliding lockable metal bars to the accessible window (and probably same at 5G?), and at 5A by adding external bars to the accessible window.
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Were any of the properties that were visited by bogus charity collectors burgled shortly after?
No.
Was the stranger who called at 5L a few hours before it got burgled a bogus charity collector?
No.
Did any bogus charity collectors visit blocks 5 and 4 on 3rd May?
No.
What type of person opens a window from outside?
A petty burglar.
Whatever city you live in, that's a fact.
Why make it any more complicated than that simple everyday fact?
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The only relevant connection is that all the burgled apartments in blocks 5 and 4 were constructed to the same specifications and therefore all had the same design of windows and the same design of window shutters, this combination is a gift to burglars see the easy opening method.
This has since been remedied at 5L by adding external bars to the accessible window, at that block 4 apartment by adding internal sliding lockable metal bars to the accessible window (and probably same at 5G?), and at 5A by adding external bars to the accessible window.
How, exactly, was the window at 5L easily accessible? It appears to be behind the wall of a walkway & over a 2 storey drop - or am I seeing it incorrectly?
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How, exactly, was the window at 5L easily accessible? It appears to be behind the wall of a walkway & over a 2 storey drop - or am I seeing it incorrectly?
IMO the Met stated that 5L burglary was entry through window.
ETA: People desperate for money to buy acohol/drugs are clever Misty.
IMO very easy to climb in that 5L window, from the wall to one side.
Why else would the the owner fit metal bars over it?
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IMO the Met stated that 5L burglary was entry through window. How wide is that gap?
Judging by the pictures on Heri's site, wide enough for someone to fall down. If the shutters were down & the window locked....why pick on that property when access appears far from safe?
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Judging by the pictures on Heri's site, wide enough for someone to fall down. If the shutters were down & the window locked....why pick on that property when access appears far from safe?
Why? To get money Misty, probably for an addiction.
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IMO possibly the first event in this case was maybe someone knocked at the wooden door?
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IMO possibly the first event in this case was maybe someone knocked at the wooden door?
Do you have a date for the burglary at 4G please?
Easter fell on 8th April in 2007. Most UK schools broke up around 30th March for up to 2 weeks. So, after 14th April I would anticipate that OC would have had less holidaymakers from UK in residence.
We know that Block 5 had less than 50% occupancy during the last week in April/beg. May, but I'm not sure about blocks 4 or 6.
Why select an occupied apartment that was quite difficult to access via one window only - not good for a quick getaway if confronted? To know it was occupied meant watching - but the couple in 4G had just arrived so only the cleaning staff/reception/driver would have officially known the apartment was to be occupied. Otherwise - it's a lot of watching & door-knocking for a petty thief who just happened to be in the immediate vicinity during a limited time-frame.
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Is it a mere coincidence that 3 of the burgled apartments were maintained by OC staff?
It depends on what percentage of the total was maintained by O.C staff. Do you know what that is?
If its 90% then one would expect O.C staff to be maintaining the lions share of those burgled.
If it's less than 50% then it could still be random.
At this remove it would be difficult to work up a good case for "malice aforethought".
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According to the Met;
There was a fourfold increase in burglaries in the resort peaking in April 2007. Two of the burglaries in April were in Block 5 where Madeleine disappeared from. In both these burglaries entry was via a window. In the first burglary the British occupants had just arrived on 16 April when a man called at the door asking for the "German family". He is described as white, aged in his 20s, fair/blond hair, short in length. They discovered the burglary after they returned from dinner.
http://web.archive.org/web/20150302140142/http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal/Madeleine-McCann-Appeal--October-2013/1400020463601/1257246745782
According to the bookkeeper;
on 16th April 2007 there was a theft from an apartment in Block 5 L, from where a plasma display screen, credit cards and a mobile phone belonging to the respective guests were taken.
As far as she knows, as she prepared the papers for the insurance company, the theft took place at the end of the day and according to the guests the event happened when they had left for dinner after completing check in and having left their suitcases in the apartment.
She says that she does not remember having been told that doors or windows had been forced, the guests having said that they had just left the door on the latch, however she is not certain.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-GONCALVES.htm
As with everything in this case there are questions arising.
Did the Portuguese police tell the Met there was a four fold increase in burglaries?
Did the Portuguese police tell the Met entry took place via a window? If so there would have been evidence of that.
Were the Portuguese police called? MG doesn't mention if they were, but an incident number would have been needed to claim from a UK travel insurance company.
If the claim was with a Mark Warner scheme I would expect the fact that credit cards were left in the apartment to be questioned, as the advice was to lock valuable items in the safe at reception. Also not locking the door.
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...
As with everything in this case there are questions arising.
Did the Portuguese police tell the Met there was a four fold increase in burglaries?
...
This bit intrigues me. OG reports a 4-fold increase in burglaries. Based on what?
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This bit intrigues me. OG reports a 4-fold increase in burglaries. Based on what?
Unless the reported increase were based on statements by the Portuguese police, an authorised Mark Warner representative or insurance loss adjusters then one could place little reliance on the comment.
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It would take a long post to fully explain this deduction, so without any explanation...
IMO an earlier robbery of a nearby apartment possibly (and my deduction from very sparse info might be wrong) required two people one giving a leg up enabling other to reach a shuttered window to apply the opening method explained before. If correct (and it might not be) the important inference for that location at least would be not a lone burglar but a pair of burglars both reasonably young agile and intelligent.
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From two different nearby apartments is indication that when the wooden door is double-locked. then even from inside is impossible to open without key. Is that correct?
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Examining the tentative deduction of two burglars working as pair both young and agile, looking next at the reported sighting earlier on 3rd of two people on balcony of 5C, does anyone know how many glass doors and how many windows are on that balcony?
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From two different nearby apartments is indication that when the wooden door is double-locked. then even from inside is impossible to open without key. Is that correct?
Not in my experience of Continental Locks.
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Are continental locks universal, or do they differ from country to country?
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Not in my experience of Continental Locks.
Thanks Eleanor. Does anyone here have a front door which locks just by closing it, and can then be optionally double-locked by inserting key and turning it? When double-locked, can it be opened from inside without key please?
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From two different nearby apartments is indication that when the wooden door is double-locked. then even from inside is impossible to open without key. Is that correct?
Snipped from a statement made by a former occupant of 5A
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
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Thanks Brietta what I ask is can the wooden door when doubly-locked be opened without key from inside?
There are IMO indications from 2 nearby apartments that it can't.
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Thanks Eleanor. Does anyone here have a front door which locks just by closing it, and can then be optionally double-locked by inserting key and turning it? When double-locked, can it be opened from inside without key please?
Yes. And garage doors as well.
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Are continental locks universal, or do they differ from country to country?
I don't know. I only know about France.
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IMO the wooden external doors of apartments in blocks 5 and 4, if the resident double-locks the door when going out, can't be opened from inside without a key.
This is an important consideration for burglars because if they get in through a window there is a possibility they may not be able to use the wooden door as an exit. IMO possibly this happened at one apartment (not 5A).
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IMO the wooden external doors of apartments in blocks 5 and 4, if the resident double-locks the door when going out, can't be opened from inside without a key.
This is an important consideration for burglars because if they get in through a window there is a possibility they may not be able to use the wooden door as an exit. IMO possibly this happened at one apartment (not 5A).
They could here. And since the shutters are exactly the same, I have no reason to think that the door locks are different.
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Ah found first-hand proof, courtesy one of the T7 rogs
"if you only do one lock on the main door then it can be opened from the inside but if you double lock it then you need the key to get in or out”.
This is a confirmer for what I deduced about how a burglary in a nearby apartment (not 5A) was done.
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Thanks Eleanor. Does anyone here have a front door which locks just by closing it, and can then be optionally double-locked by inserting key and turning it? When double-locked, can it be opened from inside without key please?
Our locks were like that in Germany. If you just closed it when you went in you could open it from inside and go out without a key. Anyone left outside when the door was closed needed a key to get in. If you double locked it on the inside at night you needed to unlock it in the morning to get out.
The couple in 5L told the bookkeeper they left their door 'on the latch'. This would not allow anyone to get in, but they could get out if they were already in. The T7 children were double-locked in, so couldn't get out.
If someone left the key in the door on the inside I would think it couldn't be opened with a key from the outside. Because the 'turning' bit of the mechanism is filled, the outside key wouldn't get to it.
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Thanks Eleanor. Does anyone here have a front door which locks just by closing it, and can then be optionally double-locked by inserting key and turning it? When double-locked, can it be opened from inside without key please?
In answer to your question my locks need a key to open them from inside when double locked. The front locks on closure but the back does not. Once a key has been used to lock a door it must used to unlock it whichever side of the door one is on.
You need a locksmith or Churchill's guide ................... ?{)(**
https://www.churchill.com/home-insurance/tips/door-lock-types#.Vv1f13ozzm4
I hate to think how many variations on a theme there are throughout Europe.
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Tentative deduction of how a burglary at a different apartment was done
(a) the only easily accessible shuttered window was presumably tried first but heri method did not work due to lock button on inside of window being in lock position. (b) a less accessible shuttered window was accessed by one person giving a leg up to the other person, opening by heri method succeeded because lock button on inside of window was not in locked position, so one person climbs in window. (c) wooden door was found to have been deadlocked and no key left laying around, impossible to open and can't be used for exit. (d) therefore balcony door opened from inside and used as exit.
Includes guessing and might be wrong.
What this means re 5A is that possibly there was a pair of young agile intelligent petty burglars targeting these blocks early 2007.
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Perhaps if the McCanns had said that they had been entering by the 'front' door with a key, but that Kate found the patio door 'wide open', they might have been more readily believed.
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Thanks GUnit and Alice. IMO at 5L burglar entered through window, and exited through wooden door which was not double-locked. At different apartment described above IMO wooden door was double-locked and not available for burglar exit.
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Thanks GUnit and Alice. IMO at 5L burglar entered through window, and exited through wooden door which was not double-locked. At different apartment described above IMO wooden door was double-locked and not available for burglar exit.
I'm not too sure, but wasn't the 5L window over a drop so you couldn't stand in front of it?
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pegasus, i have sent you a PM.
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pegasus, i have sent you a PM.
Thanks Heri, what an unusual gift. Not Blair or Brown I hope (I've had enough of tracing blanked numbers in the phone records).
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In an Argentinian blog, in Spanish.
http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/ (http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/)
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In an Argentinian blog, in Spanish.
http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/ (http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/)
But Heri in the rogs 2 of the T7 searchers converse briefly in the street when their paths cross near Luztur.
IMO if they were speaking loudly it is not suspicious, it is natural in the urgency of the search.
And obviously they walk off quickly because they are urgently searching.
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What were two people (seen by [Name removed]) doing on balcony of 5C? Is there a window on that balcony?
And had gateman (seen by CT) been on 5B balcony? And is there a window on that balcony?
Is it possible there was testing of windows in daytime?
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What were two people (seen by [Name removed]) doing on balcony of 5C? Is there a window on that balcony?
And had gateman (seen by CT) been on 5B balcony? And is there a window on that balcony?
Is it possible there was testing of windows in daytime?
Daytime would be a logical time for a quick open window and enter to check if anything worth stealing had been left lying around while the holidaymakers were out. But why test the gate apparently for noise? and why observe from a distance?
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I am still waiting to hear for a logical reason to lock the apartment during the daytime and unlocked,or so they claimed after the story changed, in the evening.
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I am still waiting to hear for a logical reason to lock the apartment during the daytime and unlocked,or so they claimed after the story changed, in the evening.
It seems to go against all logic. The only reason I can see why they did it was for ease of access for checking. They assumed it was safe as they could see the patio balcony from the tapas area. What mystifies me however is knowing that they used the patio why did Gerry claim he accessed the apartment using the front door to do his check at 9pm?
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I am still waiting to hear for a logical reason to lock the apartment during the daytime and unlocked,or so they claimed after the story changed, in the evening.
If by unlocked you mean the patio door, it makes little to no sense, unless I am missing a trick.
If it made sense to leave the patio door unlocked, why didn't the other two families on the ground floor of block 5 do the same? The time saved seems pretty much the same to me.
As to why lock it during the daytime, when the block has no significant security features, that aspect makes sense.
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It seems to go against all logic. The only reason I can see why they did it was for ease of access for checking. They assumed it was safe as they could see the patio balcony from the tapas area. What mystifies me however is knowing that they used the patio why did Gerry claim he accessed the apartment using the front door to do his check at 9pm?
I wouldn't take everything as gospel if I were you.
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I wouldn't take everything as gospel if I were you.
With a pinch of salt maybe? @)(++(*
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With a pinch of salt maybe? @)(++(*
there is quite a lot on here that should be taken with a pinch of salt.....most of it from the sceptics imo
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With a pinch of salt maybe? @)(++(*
Whatever. But hardly absolute fact on which to scatter a pinch of salt. Where is The Proof?
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there is quite a lot on here that should be taken with a pinch of salt.....most of it from the sceptics imo
Please do try not to wind them up. It doesn't actually help. Especially when you can be totally logical.
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What were two people (seen by [Name removed]) doing on balcony of 5C? Is there a window on that balcony?
And had gateman (seen by CT) been on 5B balcony? And is there a window on that balcony?
Is it possible there was testing of windows in daytime?
There is a window between the patio doors of 5B & 5C. From the position of the rear garden wall, the window would appear to belong to 5C. I am still looking for a clearer picture of the rear of 5B but it doesn't seem to have a window.
Why would 2 potential burglars be interested in an unoccupied apartment? Weren't they blond rather than typical Mediterranean?
RO admitted to leaving patio door unlocked during the daytime if they were all just going to the pool area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
*snipped*
1578 'In terms of entry and exit to your apartment, which entry or exit did you most frequently use''
Reply 'We used the front door, I mean if we were just sort of all popping out and just quickly to the pool, we'd go out the patio doors and just leave them unlocked, erm cos you couldn't lock them from the outside but I mean certainly at night when we went to dinner and if we were gonna be off for a couple of hours, then we went out the front door and you could you know, double lock it so'.
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There is a window between the patio doors of 5B & 5C. From the position of the rear garden wall, the window would appear to belong to 5C. (snip)
Thanks Misty. IMO the 2 men seen by tourist [Name removed] on 5C balcony who gave the impression they were looking out over the pools area were probably really just checking that window (lifting shutter an inch and seeing if window could be slided) to see if it was burglarizable and if so they would have returned after dusk.
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Thanks Misty. IMO the 2 men seen by tourist [Name removed] on 5C balcony who gave the impression they were looking out over the pools area were probably really just checking that window (lifting shutter an inch and seeing if window could be slided) to see if it was burglarizable and if so they would have returned after dusk.
Is there anythng to say this was more probable than two men viewing an apartment for sale for instance? Why does everythng that happened in the vicinity at any day, weeek or month beforehand HAVE to have sinister connotations?
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Thanks Misty. IMO the 2 men seen by tourist [Name removed] on 5C balcony who gave the impression they were looking out over the pools area were probably really just checking that window (lifting shutter an inch and seeing if window could be slided) to see if it was burglarizable and if so they would have returned after dusk.
Really? Do we now have to factor in blond German/Dutch petty thieves operating in competition with the local drug addicts?
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Really? Do we now have to factor in blond German/Dutch petty thieves operating in competition with the local drug addicts?
Every nationality has sad people who steal to feed addiction Misty.
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There is a window between the patio doors of 5B & 5C. From the position of the rear garden wall, the window would appear to belong to 5C. I am still looking for a clearer picture of the rear of 5B but it doesn't seem to have a window.
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Thanks Heri
5B (1-bedroom) on south face has only a lounge glass door.
Witness CT saw a man coming out of 5B gate presumably from balcony on 3rd May.
What was he doing there?
5C (2-bedroom) on south face has a lounge glass door and a bedroom glass door.
Witness [Name removed] saw 2 men on 5C balcony on May 3rd.
What were they doing there?
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Burglaries in Jan to Apr 2007 in blocks 5 and 4:
Ground-floor, successful.
Second-floor, successful.
First-floor, interrupted.
(Also owner of one of those states that two further nearby ground-floor apartments were burgled, also that one nearby apartment was burgled twice.)
Therefore 5A shuttered window was opened from outside with intention to burgle, nothing else, and definitely not to abduct.
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Therefore 5A shuttered window was opened from outside with intention to burgle, nothing else, and definitely not to abduct.
8((()*/
It was an escalation from theft to abduction.
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OK, so have we ruled out that it was burglars that did it?
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OK, so have we ruled out that it was burglars that did it?
No.
See Heri's post.
It was a burglary which became an abduction.
It is possible the burglar did not even have to enter the premises to accomplish it, which would explain why the shutter and window were found open. No time to close them and unable to while carrying the child.
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(snip) It was a burglary ... (snip)
it was an interrupted burglary
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it was an interrupted burglary
... and?
I doubt Madeleine leapt out of the window and chased them off the premises. Nor do I think she was frightened and ran out of the patio door closing it behind her.
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... and?
I doubt Madeleine leapt out of the window and chased them off the premises. Nor do I think she was frightened and ran out of the patio door closing it behind her.
It's just being accurate Brietta - if it was a burglary, it was a burglary interrupted by one or more people.
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It's just being accurate Brietta - if it was a burglary, it was a burglary interrupted by one or more people.
Agreed ... an attempted burglary which was interrupted not necessarily by passers by or checkers, but by the sleepy child approaching the window to see what was going on.
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Agreed ... an attempted burglary which was interrupted not necessarily by passers by or checkers, but by the sleepy child approaching the window to see what was going on.
An attempted burglary interrupted by someone with much more sense than to run toward danger.
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A child runs away from danger, not walks towards it.
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A child runs away from danger, not walks towards it.
What did the wannabe burglars do next?
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A child runs away from danger, not walks towards it.
It doesn't look like any one left that tidy bed in a hurry.
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What did the wannabe burglars do next?
Imagine you're a burglar Misty what would you do the moment you discovered someone was in?
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Imagine you're a burglar Misty what would you do the moment you discovered someone was in?
Scarper pdq.
I'll be interested to hear someone's take on a conversation between 2 burglars concerning "what to do about the child".
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Very difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone who does stuff you would just never dream of doing ....
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Very difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone who does stuff you would just never dream of doing ....
Even more difficult if you've taken a little something most of us would never consider....
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Scarper pdq. (snip)
Precisely Misty, in two words you said the complete solution of the open shutter and window.
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Precisely Misty, in two words you said the complete solution of the open shutter and window.
It's not as simple as the abduction solution. That explains the missing child too. Scarpering burglar solution only explains open shutters, not missing-never-to-be-seen-again child.
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It's not as simple as the abduction solution. That explains the missing child too. Scarpering burglar solution only explains open shutters, not missing-never-to-be-seen-again child.
It is far simpler than any abduction hypothesis - burglaries are common, abductions are extremely rare.
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If a burglar opened the shutters and the window and was confronted with a child the burglar would simply go away.
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If a burglar opened the shutters and the window and was confronted with a child the burglar would simply go away.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/248B13E900000578-2903401-Scene_The_unidentified_youngster_was_allegedly_snatched_by_the_h-m-24_1420813950238.jpg)
The child was three years old when the intruder lifted her through the window leaving no trace but a space where a child should have been.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903401/Girl-three-kidnapped-stranger-bedroom-window-miraculously-saved-father-uncle-chase-abductor-street-tackle-him.html
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/248B13E900000578-2903401-Scene_The_unidentified_youngster_was_allegedly_snatched_by_the_h-m-24_1420813950238.jpg)
The child was three years old when the intruder lifted her through the window leaving no trace but a space where a child should have been.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903401/Girl-three-kidnapped-stranger-bedroom-window-miraculously-saved-father-uncle-chase-abductor-street-tackle-him.html
Was he a burglar?
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/248B13E900000578-2903401-Scene_The_unidentified_youngster_was_allegedly_snatched_by_the_h-m-24_1420813950238.jpg)
The child was three years old when the intruder lifted her through the window leaving no trace but a space where a child should have been.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903401/Girl-three-kidnapped-stranger-bedroom-window-miraculously-saved-father-uncle-chase-abductor-street-tackle-him.html
OMG, he must have known she was in that room, probably been watching the house.
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/248B13E900000578-2903401-Scene_The_unidentified_youngster_was_allegedly_snatched_by_the_h-m-24_1420813950238.jpg)
The child was three years old when the intruder lifted her through the window leaving no trace but a space where a child should have been.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903401/Girl-three-kidnapped-stranger-bedroom-window-miraculously-saved-father-uncle-chase-abductor-street-tackle-him.html
If only Gerry had been in his apartment when his child was allegedly abducted. How different this could have been.
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There's no real basis for assuming a burglar will become a child abductor, of course;
A burglar turned part of his haul over to police after discovering the video tapes he had taken depicted graphic scenes of child abuse.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/burglar-steals-video-tapes-of-child-abuse-hands-them-into-police-9017867.html
Burglar rings police after bumping into dead body while robbing house
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/10131369/Burglar-rings-police-after-bumping-into-dead-body-while-robbing-house.html
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Was he a burglar?
Was he a charity collector or known to have been masquerading as one?
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There's no real basis for assuming a burglar will become a child abductor, of course;
A burglar turned part of his haul over to police after discovering the video tapes he had taken depicted graphic scenes of child abuse.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/burglar-steals-video-tapes-of-child-abuse-hands-them-into-police-9017867.html
Burglar rings police after bumping into dead body while robbing house
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/10131369/Burglar-rings-police-after-bumping-into-dead-body-while-robbing-house.html
But.....but.....but G he wasn't your honest British burglar but foreign and strange.
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/05/colo-parolee-charged-with-kidnapping-burglary-in-attempted-abduction-aurora/
Colo. parolee charged with kidnapping, burglary in attempted abduction of Aurora girl
Published November 05, 2013Associated Press
AURORA, COLO. – Prosecutors have filed charges against a man accused of trying to abduct an 8-year-old girl from her bedroom in Aurora, Colo.
Twenty-six-year-old John Stanley Snorsky was charged Tuesday with several counts including kidnapping, burglary and assault.
The attempted abduction happened early in the morning on Oct. 28. According to police, the girl escaped by pinching Snorsky and running away.
Investigators say his DNA was found on the girl's clothing.
Snorsky had been on parole for a burglary conviction. He was arrested the day after the attempted abduction on an unrelated charge and later linked to the kidnapping case.
It's not clear if he has a lawyer.
End quote
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But.....but.....but G he wasn't your honest British burglar but foreign and strange.
So were the ones in the links; one Spanish and the other from New Zealand. Thanks to the Spanish burglar a paedophile was arrested. You just can't generalise about these foreigners you know!
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/05/colo-parolee-charged-with-kidnapping-burglary-in-attempted-abduction-aurora/
Colo. parolee charged with kidnapping, burglary in attempted abduction of Aurora girl
Published November 05, 2013Associated Press
AURORA, COLO. – Prosecutors have filed charges against a man accused of trying to abduct an 8-year-old girl from her bedroom in Aurora, Colo.
Twenty-six-year-old John Stanley Snorsky was charged Tuesday with several counts including kidnapping, burglary and assault.
The attempted abduction happened early in the morning on Oct. 28. According to police, the girl escaped by pinching Snorsky and running away.
Investigators say his DNA was found on the girl's clothing.
Snorsky had been on parole for a burglary conviction. He was arrested the day after the attempted abduction on an unrelated charge and later linked to the kidnapping case.
It's not clear if he has a lawyer.
End quote
Can we have a similar kidnapping from the UK or indeed Portugal ?
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Can we have a similar kidnapping from the UK or indeed Portugal ?
My post re a convicted burglar who was then charged with child abduction was in response to this claim by G-unit :-
''There's no real basis for assuming a burglar will become a child abductor, of course;''
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My post re a convicted burglar who was then charged with child abduction was in response to this claim by G-unit :-
''There's no real basis for assuming a burglar will become a child abductor, of course;''
In the case you quoted there seems to be no real reason for believing that the object was ever to burgle.
Now a similar UK or Portuguese case ?
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In the case you quoted there seems to be no real reason for believing that the object was ever to burgle.
Now a similar UK or Portuguese case ?
And you would know that for a fact - how?
I have no examples of any other cases - and having made the only point I wanted to make - have no interest in searching.
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In the case you quoted there seems to be no real reason for believing that the object was ever to burgle.
Now a similar UK or Portuguese case ?
We ought to compile a list of all the unlikely events that must converge to make the abduction theory work &%+((£
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But.....but.....but G he wasn't your honest British burglar but foreign and strange.
With sincerest apologies to Bret Harte:
Which I wish to remark,
And my language is plain,
That for ways that are dark
And for tricks that are vain,
The heathen Chinee Johnny Foreigner is peculiar,
Which the same I would rise to explain.
?{)(**
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Forget statistics of past unrelated cases. Consider this case as unique. So, which are the physical, time and space possibilities of this person who opens a window to steal money or phones to abduct a child if he interprets the task as easy?
The motivation? Nobody can understand all the aspects of the human mind. Maybe he was scared to be recognized later, maybe he was also a paedo, maybe she shouted and he put his hand on her face asphyxiating her ...
But why losing time guessing about the thoughts of a person that is almost unknown to us? A human being could be able to think, feel and act in many ways unthinkable to us.
But you can say why thinking it was a burglary that went wrong? Because we have past and maybe RELATED cases: the thefts / attempt to theft in 5L, 5G, Casa Maria ... Plus "charity collectors" (also a type of crime which could be associated to burglary) at Casa da Aventura, Ashton, Cooper ...
So, my questions are: was Madeleine exposed to be snatched? It was physically possible? Forget the motivations of a dark human mind for a moment ...
I can assure you the motivations is the less important aspect of crime investigation ... Many times it is a mislead.
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Forget statistics of past unrelated cases. Consider this case as unique. So, which are the physical, time and space possibilities of this person who opens a window to steal money or phones to abduct a child if he interprets the task as easy?
The motivation? Nobody can understand all the aspects of the human mind. Maybe he was scared to be recognized later, maybe he was also a paedo, maybe ...
But why losing time guessing about the thoughts of a person that is almost unknown to us?
We have past and maybe RELATED cases: the thefts / attempt to theft in 5L, 5G, Casa Maria ... Plus "charity collectors" (also a type of crime which could be associated to burglary) at Casa da Aventura, Ashton, Cooper ...
So, my questions are: was Madeleine exposed to be snatched? It was physically possible? Forget the motivations of a dark human mind for a moment ...
I can assure you the motivations is the less important aspect of crime investigation ... Many times it is a mislead.
Have you conducted a systematic analysis of the other scenarios for Madeleine's disappearance ?
Or as with OG have you simply considered only one ?
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If a burglar opened the shutters and the window and was confronted with a child the burglar would simply go away.
Yes GUnit that is precisely what happened IMO.
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Have you conducted a systematic analysis of the other scenarios for Madeleine's disappearance ?
Or as with OG have you simply considered only one ?
Yes, and I used the same methodology. My first theory was that the McCann did it. No trying to guess motivations. They found her dead (or they killed her) and then hid her body, it was physically possible? If you read the first three volumes of PJ files, and know about eyewitness testimony dynamics, your unique conclusion should be: physically impossible.
That is why I discard the McCann. Not for their "motivations".
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Yes, and I used the same methodology. My first theory was that the McCann did it. No trying to guess motivations. They found her dead (or they killed her) and then hid her body, it was physically possible? If you read the first three volumes of PJ files, and know about eyewitness testimony dynamics, your unique conclusion should be: physically impossible.
That is why I discard the McCann. Not for their "motivations".
I think it is a mistake to even think of starting off with any theory.
The essential way to start is to accurately define the problem, with spatial and especially temporal precision.
Something neither the PJ nor SY did.
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I think it is a mistake to even think of starting off with any theory.
The essential way to start is to accurately define the problem, with spatial and especially temporal precision.
Something neither the PJ nor SY did.
This is philosophical empiricism, pegasus, the belief that the analysis of raw data would end in the right theory. To the contrary, science proceeds in this way: choose a theory, look the data from the point of view of the theory, provisionally accept or discard this theory, get additional data and/or modify the theory, look again the data from the point of view of the theory ... etc. Do this cycle for all competing theories in parallel ...
If you gather data without a theory, you will not understand the output.
Shining has something to say about blindly putting data in a database ...
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This is philosophical empiricism, pegasus, the believe that the raw data would suggest the theory. To the contrary, science proceeds otherwise: choose a theory, look the data from the point of view of the theory, provisional accept or discard this theory, get additional data and/or modify the theory, look again the data from the point of view of the theory ... etc. Do this cycle for all competing theories in parallel ...
If you gather data without a theory, you will not understand the output.
Shining has something to say about blindly putting data in a database ...
sorry Heri, I disagree. Quite often science finds that data suggests a theory. This theory is then investigated by collecting more data
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sorry Heri, I disagree. Quite often science finds that data suggests a theory. This theory is then investigated by collecting more data
If raw data seems to suggest you a theory is because you analyzed the data with a theory in your mind, consciously or unconsciously. See modern philosophers of science like Popper, Bunge, etc. or read scientific papers of any science. It is not possible to analyze naively data with an innocent or empty mind.
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sorry Heri, I disagree. Quite often science finds that data suggests a theory. This theory is then investigated by collecting more data
And of course, if you only select data to fit your theory, you always get the answer you want. ?{)(**
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Popper for example began some of his lectures asking the public to look with attention all the things they can perceive in the room, during 5 minutes. Then he asked "which is your conclusion?". Nobody answered, and Popper said "you see, empiricism is false".
I try to analyze scientifically, not interested in other methodologies.
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And of course, if you only select data to fit your theory, you always get the answer you want. ?{)(**
Yes, but that is not scientific. You must select all data which fits the theory AND all data which refutes the theory. And forget data irrelevant to the theory.
Always is a selection.
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sorry Heri, I disagree. Quite often science finds that data suggests a theory. This theory is then investigated by collecting more data
So where did the data come from? Who is out there aimlessly collecting data for scientists to examine?
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So where did the data come from? Who is out there aimlessly collecting data for scientists to examine?
Scientists are collecting data all the time. The daily average temperature is a good example....it was recorderd way before anyone even thought of global warming
infant mortality rates are recorded as are many others...if these deviate from accepted norms an investigation is launched
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Popper for example began some of his lectures asking the public to look with attention all the things they can perceive in the room, during 5 minutes. Then he asked "which is your conclusion?". Nobody answered, and Popper said "you see, empiricism is false".
I try to analyze scientifically, not interested in other methodologies.
more likely the public were not scientists and unable to draw any conclusions...
to draw any examples from Popper's single example is an example of empiricism and no scientific conclusions can be drawn from it
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If raw data seems to suggest you a theory is because you analyzed the data with a theory in your mind, consciously or unconsciously. See modern philosophers of science like Popper, Bunge, etc. or read scientific papers of any science. It is not possible to analyze naively data with an innocent or empty mind.
#I completely disagree. Scientists looked at the data on average temperature and saw it was rising. The quest was then to find out why. I am afraid you are wrong on this one
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Scientists are collecting data all the time. The daily average temperature is a good example....it was recorderd way before anyone even thought of global warming
infant mortality rates are recorded as are many others...if these deviate from accepted norms an investigation is launched
Yes, i suggest you to collect any data you imagine (you have infinite candidates here) and then see what theory you can deduce from it ... Simply science does not work in that way. When people began collecting temperature or mortality rates they ALREADY had an idea, a theory of what they wanted to explain ...
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more likely the public were not scientists and unable to draw any conclusions...
to draw any examples from Popper's single example is an example of empiricism and no scientific conclusions can be drawn from it
Popper was NOT doing a demonstration. He was showing to the public that is not possible to draw a conclusion only from raw data, because the amount of raw data is overwhelming. You can say "select only the relevant data". But to select you need a previous idea. A previous theory. It was a pleasure to discuss with all of you 😊.
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Forget statistics of past unrelated cases. Consider this case as unique. So, which are the physical, time and space possibilities of this person who opens a window to steal money or phones to abduct a child if he interprets the task as easy?
The motivation? Nobody can understand all the aspects of the human mind. Maybe he was scared to be recognized later, maybe he was also a paedo, maybe she shouted and he put his hand on her face asphyxiating her ...
But why losing time guessing about the thoughts of a person that is almost unknown to us? A human being could be able to think, feel and act in many ways unthinkable to us.
But you can say why thinking it was a burglary that went wrong? Because we have past and maybe RELATED cases: the thefts / attempt to theft in 5L, 5G, Casa Maria ... Plus "charity collectors" (also a type of crime which could be associated to burglary) at Casa da Aventura, Ashton, Cooper ...
So, my questions are: was Madeleine exposed to be snatched? It was physically possible? Forget the motivations of a dark human mind for a moment ...
I can assure you the motivations is the less important aspect of crime investigation ... Many times it is a mislead.
Even if a perpetrator has a specific modus operandi and signature every case is unique even if the outcome may appear to be similar.
By definition anyone committing the petty thefts which occurred in the Mark Warner complex was not very high up in the hierarchy of criminals.
Possibly young, certainly agile and possibly desperate on occasion particularly if stealing was to feed a drug habit.
He or she might have acted alone or may have acted with accomplices.
If insurance was involved there must have been police involvement and it seems to have been known to the complex management and staff that burglaries were happening.
If burglaries were endemic and if Mark Warner and the police were aware and treated each incidence as a petty crime they may have underestimated the seriousness of the situation.
Maybe it was thought stealing watches, cameras or even plasma screens was harmless and sustainable as items could be replaced without too much upset and without it becoming generally known.
It should have been a logical assumption that it was only a matter of time till the petty crimes escalated into something far more serious.
Whether by accident or by design is debatable ... but I would imagine anyone risking having his or her collar felt for the few euros petty burglary might realise could be tempted to consider how easy it might be to make thousands with just one 'big job'.
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Popper was NOT doing a demonstration. He was showing to the public that is not possible to draw a conclusion only from raw data, because the amount of raw data is overwhelming. You can say "select only the relevant data". But to select you need a previous idea. A previous theory. It was a pleasure to discuss with all of you 😊.
no one has said you can draw a conclusion from raw data but raw data can suggest a theory
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Yes, i suggest you to collect any data you imagine (you have infinite candidates here) and then see what theory you can deduce from it ... Simply science does not work in that way. When people began collecting temperature or mortality rates they ALREADY had an idea, a theory of what they wanted to explain ...
they had no idea...average daily temperatures have been recorded long before climate change was suspedcted
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Scientists are collecting data all the time. The daily average temperature is a good example....it was recorderd way before anyone even thought of global warming
infant mortality rates are recorded as are many others...if these deviate from accepted norms an investigation is launched
The minute you decide to collect something you have to make decisions about how you collect it and what you include or exclude. Get that wrong and your results will be wrong or misleading. So will any theories based on the statistics.
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Yes, and I used the same methodology. My first theory was that the McCann did it. No trying to guess motivations. They found her dead (or they killed her) and then hid her body, it was physically possible? If you read the first three volumes of PJ files, and know about eyewitness testimony dynamics, your unique conclusion should be: physically impossible.
That is why I discard the McCann. Not for their "motivations".
Do you have a link to your reasoning on the physical impossibility of the MxCann's involvement please?
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The minute you decide to collect something you have to make decisions about how you collect it and what you include or exclude. Get that wrong and your results will be wrong or misleading. So will any theories based on the statistics.
thats what science is all about..analysing data properly. Proper scientific research takes all that into consideration
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Do you have a link to your reasoning on the physical impossibility of the MxCann's involvement please?
In my opinion you may find something of interest here ...hope it helps.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
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The minute you decide to collect something you have to make decisions about how you collect it and what you include or exclude. Get that wrong and your results will be wrong or misleading. So will any theories based on the statistics.
this is where I feel the sceptics have made so many mistakes
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Do you have a link to your reasoning on the physical impossibility of the MxCann's involvement please?
Whilst I would be interested in Heri's evidence, you don't need to rule out the McCanns' involvement (in anything nefarious) as impossible; you need to adduce the evidence of their involvement.
If it doesn't exist (it doesn't!) that's enough.
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In my opinion you may find something of interest here ...hope it helps.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Thank you Brietta. Heriberto did a system analysis of all witness statements for the period 20.50 to 22.10 on 3rd May and concluded that stranger abduction was the only answer. He discarded two major discrepancies and adjusted minor discrepancies but doesn't say what he classes as minor and why.
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Thank you Brietta. Heriberto did a system analysis of all witness statements for the period 20.50 to 22.10 on 3rd May and concluded that stranger abduction was the only answer. He discarded two major discrepancies and adjusted minor discrepancies but doesn't say what he classes as minor and why.
Perhaps he will get back to you on that if you give him specific problematic areas ... I read what he had to say about his work on the case and had no particular difficulty with any of it so I am afraid I couldn't begin to assist one so well versed as you in your own analysis of the files.
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thats what science is all about..analysing data properly. Proper scientific research takes all that into consideration
You can believe there's no problem with data collection if you wish. I know better because I googled unreliable statistics;
crime statistics unreliable
animal testing unreliable statistics
why are unemployment statistics unreliable
misuse of statistics example
statistical fallacies examples
how can statistics be misused
misuse of statistics in advertising
misleading statistics examples
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You can believe there's no problem with data collection if you wish. I know better because I googled unreliable statistics;
crime statistics unreliable
animal testing unreliable statistics
why are unemployment statistics unreliable
misuse of statistics example
statistical fallacies examples
how can statistics be misused
misuse of statistics in advertising
misleading statistics examples
you obviously havent understood my posts...there is a massive problem with data collection...lets look at the data that supports eddies's 100% record...no proper data collection...
real science has very precise rules on data collection... i don't need to google anything to tell you exactly why all those statitistics are unreliable
everything I do professionally is evidenced based and i understand how to assess or dismiss evidence
that's why I believe my opinion is worth far more than others on this and other forums
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you obviously havent understood my posts...there is a massive problem with data collection...lets look at the data that supports eddies's 100% record...no proper data collection...
real science has very precise rules on data collection... i don't need to google anything to tell you exactly why all those statitistics are unreliable
everything I do professionally is evidenced based and i understand how to assess or dismiss evidence
that's why I believe my opinion is worth far more than others on this and other forums
Please elaborate on the bolded text.
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Please elaborate on the bolded text.
It speaks for itself if you know anything about science...anything published in a reputable journal is peer reviewed
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It speaks for itself if you know anything about science...anything published in a reputable journal is peer reviewed
Reputable Journals being?
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Reputable Journals being?
do you not know
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you obviously havent understood my posts...there is a massive problem with data collection...lets look at the data that supports eddies's 100% record...no proper data collection...
real science has very precise rules on data collection... i don't need to google anything to tell you exactly why all those statitistics are unreliable
everything I do professionally is evidenced based and i understand how to assess or dismiss evidence
that's why I believe my opinion is worth far more than others on this and other forums
Why the move from data and statistics to evidence?
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do you not know
I don't know which journals you consider reputable. How could I? There are many types of science, some of which you will class as 'real', some you won't. Each one has more than one journal, some of which you will say are 'reputable', some you won't. I'm not a scientist, but I do like to be precise in my thinking.
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I don't know which journals you consider reputable. How could I? There are many types of science, some of which you will class as 'real', some you won't. Each one has more than one journal, some of which you will say are 'reputable', some you won't. I'm not a scientist, but I do like to be precise in my thinking.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or do not understand what a reputable journal is....anyone who understands science and scientific evidence understands what a reputable journal means
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Why the move from data and statistics to evidence?
#
#if you read the thread you will see there is no movement from me..gunit talked about statisics several posts ago
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I'm not sure if you are trolling or do not understand what a reputable journal is....anyone who understands science and scientific evidence understands what a reputable journal means
I don't troll, I wouldn't know how. You are the one who made the sweeping statement about 'real' science and 'reputable' journals. If I comment on any science or it's journal no doubt your answer will be words to the effect of not that science, not that journal. That's why I want precise information. I'll throw in this as a gesture of goodwill;
Peer review is generally considered necessary to academic quality and is used in most major scientific journals, but does by no means prevent publication of all invalid research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review
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Forget statistics of past unrelated cases. Consider this case as unique. So, which are the physical, time and space possibilities of this person who opens a window to steal money or phones to abduct a child if he interprets the task as easy?
The motivation? Nobody can understand all the aspects of the human mind. Maybe he was scared to be recognized later, maybe he was also a paedo, maybe she shouted and he put his hand on her face asphyxiating her ...
But why losing time guessing about the thoughts of a person that is almost unknown to us? A human being could be able to think, feel and act in many ways unthinkable to us.
But you can say why thinking it was a burglary that went wrong? Because we have past and maybe RELATED cases: the thefts / attempt to theft in 5L, 5G, Casa Maria ... Plus "charity collectors" (also a type of crime which could be associated to burglary) at Casa da Aventura, Ashton, Cooper ...
So, my questions are: was Madeleine exposed to be snatched? It was physically possible? Forget the motivations of a dark human mind for a moment ...
I can assure you the motivations is the less important aspect of crime investigation ... Many times it is a mislead.
Your scenario is not possible because it doesn't connect to the evidence. The father checked on Madeleine and said the bedroom door had moved. MO checks next and the same door had moved again - no draughts, no open window, raised shutters or whooshing curtains.
Many would question a scenario of Madeleine waking up at two different times between checks to move the door. Many would question a door that moves by itself when that didn't happen on other nights @)(++(* Unconvincing arguments to try and explain a moving door without an abductor being present. So evidence suggests an abductor moving the door but there is no evidence of an open window or a shutter being raised at these times. MO saw them closed at around 9 only minutes before Gerry said the door had moved.
You should stick to the facts to get to the truth and if it doesn't add up then you question the sources. Unseen shadows passing through unlocked windows leaving no trace is at the bottom of my list of possibilities.
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I don't troll, I wouldn't know how. You are the one who made the sweeping statement about 'real' science and 'reputable' journals. If I comment on any science or it's journal no doubt your answer will be words to the effect of not that science, not that journal. That's why I want precise information. I'll throw in this as a gesture of goodwill;
Peer review is generally considered necessary to academic quality and is used in most major scientific journals, but does by no means prevent publication of all invalid research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review
you assume wrong...if you quoted a journal I would look at the qualifications of the editorial board....it really is that simple...it still does not prevent publication of invalid research...no system is perfect...a good example is the Lancet and the article on the realtionship between mmr and autism...again I don't need wiki to state the obvious
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Yes, and I used the same methodology. My first theory was that the McCann did it. No trying to guess motivations. They found her dead (or they killed her) and then hid her body, it was physically possible? If you read the first three volumes of PJ files, and know about eyewitness testimony dynamics, your unique conclusion should be: physically impossible.
That is why I discard the McCann. Not for their "motivations".
Unfortunately, you do not know what took place.
We do not know which witnesses told the truth or which lied.
Likewise, you do not know the movements of the mccanns after Madeleine's disappearance. There are numerous contradictions as to the hours previous to her disappearance as well.
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Unfortunately, you do not know what took place.
We do not know which witnesses told the truth or which lied.
Likewise, you do not know the movements of the mccanns after Madeleine's disappearance. There are numerous contradictions as to the hours previous to her disappearance as well.
all the mccanns official statements are hearsay...fact
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all the mccanns official statements are hearsay...fact
Signed and evidence.
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you assume wrong...if you quoted a journal I would look at the qualifications of the editorial board....it really is that simple...it still does not prevent publication of invalid research...no system is perfect...a good example is the Lancet and the article on the realtionship between mmr and autism...again I don't need wiki to state the obvious
We're agreed then. 'Real' science and 'reputable' journals are not infallible. I rather suspect that's what Heri and I were saying in the first place.
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Signed and evidence.
signature only means they have seen the statement...nothing more...not that they have understood it...not admissable as evidence against them as not interviewed as arguidos...basically from a legal point of view all those statemeNts are hearsay and BS
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all the mccanns official statements are hearsay...fact
All of them? Even the rogatory statements? Why do the police bother, I wonder?
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We're agreed then. 'Real' science and 'reputable' journals are not infallible. I rather suspect that's what Heri and I were saying in the first place.
Could you direct me to the post where heri said this otherwise remove this post
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All of them? Even the rogatory statements? Why do the police bother, I wonder?
no...the rog statements were accurate and recorded precisely in english...the rest are hearsay by definition
non verbatim statments by the interpreter as to what the McCanns said are by definition hearsay...that is a fact
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no...the rog statements were accurate and recorded precisely in english...the rest are hearsay by definition
It's worth remembering that the rogatories we read on line were brought to us by fraudster Levy.
So I have never taken it for granted that they are absolutely accurate ....
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It's worth remembering that the rogatories we read on line were brought to us by fraudster Levy.
So I have never taken it for granted that they are absolutely accurate ....
of course, he just went ahead and added thngs into a uk police official document that made the t9 look bad...as one does when cimmitting a serious criminal offence, nice try
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of course, he just went ahead and added thngs into a uk police official document that made the t9 look bad...as one does when cimmitting a serious criminal offence, nice try
it seems that is exactly what he has done
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it seems that is exactly what he has done
Cite, evidence, proof? Take your pick
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no...the rog statements were accurate and recorded precisely in english...the rest are hearsay by definition
non verbatim statments by the interpreter as to what the McCanns said are by definition hearsay...that is a fact
So ?
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Cite, evidence, proof? Take your pick
#
when blonk supplies evidence for all his ridiculous claims...then i will
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So ?
then that is a fact,....wasnt it clear the first time
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Cite, evidence, proof? Take your pick
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vile-fantasist-ties-to-sell-dynamite-1656692
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signature only means they have seen the statement...nothing more...not that they have understood it...not admissable as evidence against them as not interviewed as arguidos...basically from a legal point of view all those statemeNts are hearsay and BS
I don't know about Portugal, but it's not the case in the UK;
A witness statement is your written or video recorded account of what happened to you. A police officer will ask you questions and write down what you have said. You will be asked to read it and sign it with your name. When you sign a witness statement you are saying that you agree the statement is a true account of your experience. Your witness statement may be used as evidence in court.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/telling_police.html
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vile-fantasist-ties-to-sell-dynamite-1656692
That is supposed to be a cite evidence or proof that the rogatory interviews were tampered with , youre having a major laugh
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then that is a fact,....wasnt it clear the first time
So what is the significance of the fact ?
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That is supposed to be a cite evidence or proof that the rogatory interviews were tampered with , youre having a major laugh
It points to what Levy (with a loaded agenda against the McCanns) is capable of ....
It defies rational comprehension that such a man should ever have been allowed to lay his hands on them ....
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It points to what Levy (with a loaded agenda against the McCanns) is capable of ....
It defies rational comprehension that such a man should ever have been allowed to lay his hands on them ....
Well once you set foot beyond the soggy bit at Dover there's no telling what will happen, chief.
*&*%£
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It points to what Levy (with a loaded agenda against the McCanns) is capable of ....
It defies rational comprehension that such a man should ever have been allowed to lay his hands on them ....
So no cite evidence or proof that the rogatories were tampered with as claimed by your fellow davel...in any case Id imagine it wuld take a magician to replicate their sentence structures
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I don't know about Portugal, but it's not the case in the UK;
A witness statement is your written or video recorded account of what happened to you. A police officer will ask you questions and write down what you have said. You will be asked to read it and sign it with your name. When you sign a witness statement you are saying that you agree the statement is a true account of your experience. Your witness statement may be used as evidence in court.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/telling_police.html
The statements taken in Portugal are not verbatim and are third party summaries which a reading of any will verify.
**snipped from Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 10th of May 2007
They bathed the children, the deponent having left at 18H00 for a tennis game only for men, which was attended by: DAN, the tennis instructor; JULIAN, with whom he had played tennis several times; and CURTIS, with whom he had also played before.
During the afternoon of that day, the rest of the group, including the children, were at the beach, having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DAVID PAYNE next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused, as he had already been plying for about an hour and had to go back to his wife. Nevertheless, RUSSEL, DAVID and MATHEW stayed to play..
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TOPIC. PLEASE.
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I don't know about Portugal, but it's not the case in the UK;
A witness statement is your written or video recorded account of what happened to you. A police officer will ask you questions and write down what you have said. You will be asked to read it and sign it with your name. When you sign a witness statement you are saying that you agree the statement is a true account of your experience. Your witness statement may be used as evidence in court.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/telling_police.html
a witness statement can be used as evidence but not against you unless you have been cautioned...or in portugal made an arguido...the mccanns could not possibly understand what they were asked to sign...therefore from a legal point of view their signature worrthless
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a witness statement can be used as evidence but not against you unless you have been cautioned...or in portugal made an arguido...the mccanns could not possibly understand what they were asked to sign...therefore from a legal point of view their signature worrthless
You mean they were mentally challenged?
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a witness statement can be used as evidence but not against you unless you have been cautioned...or in portugal made an arguido...the mccanns could not possibly understand what they were asked to sign...therefore from a legal point of view their signature worrthless
In the case of any of the witness statements made by British people being used in a court case, the police officers wouldn't be able to testify as to what was said because of the language barrier. The interpreter is the person who heard what was said.
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Eleanor has asked if we could return to topic which is "Charity collectors" data. We have strayed into witness statements - me too - please let us return to approximately where we should be.
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In the case of any of the witness statements made by British people being used in a court case, the police officers wouldn't be able to testify as to what was said because of the language barrier. The interpreter is the person who heard what was said.
Which is some instances was Murat
An arguido himself
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Eleanor has asked if we could return to topic which is "Charity collectors" data. We have strayed into witness statements - me too - please let us return to approximately where we should be.
Then maybe the thread should be split and the witness statements part be afforded a new thread. People cant waltz about saying official interpreters writings, that the tapas 9 signed, are "hearsay" or that the journo D Levy criminally doctored the rogatory interviews...both been touted as a fact but with no evidence to back up the "claims" which makes them dud, until such time
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If there were any relationship between the activities of the charity collectors and the disappearance of Madeleine McCann do we believe that The Met will not have looked at this in the past 5 years and come to a conclusion? The absence of arrests, that we know of, would suggest that there was no connection found OR a connection has been found and the recently awarded 95 grand is to " go get 'em".
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If a burglar opened the shutters and the window and was confronted with a child the burglar would simply go away.
is this a fact or an assumption?
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is this a fact or an assumption?
It is a fact evidenced by other cases Alf.
For example, this burglar in Nottinghamshire ran away as soon as he saw a child was in the house.
"He checked behind the door where she was hiding and they were face to face. Then he ran away."
http://www.nottinghampost.com/Home-face-face-burglar/story-28038540-detail/story.html
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It is a fact evidenced by other cases Alf.
For example, this burglar in Nottinghamshire ran away as soon as he saw a child was in the house.
"He checked behind the door where she was hiding and they were face to face. Then he ran away."
http://www.nottinghampost.com/Home-face-face-burglar/story-28038540-detail/story.html
No it's an assumption. You cannot claim it is a fact that ALL burglars behave in a similar way based on the behaviour of one burglar. That's ridiculous.
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No it's an assumption. You cannot claim it is a fact that ALL burglars behave in a similar way based on the behaviour of one burglar. That's ridiculous.
How many cases of burglar turned abductor are there? Is it common? People are quite happy to accept that possibility, it seems.
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How many cases of burglar turned abductor are there? Is it common? People are quite happy to accept that possibility, it seems.
Do not ask if it is common. Ask if it is possible.
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Do not ask if it is common. Ask if it is possible.
That implicitly applies to other scenarios.
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Do not ask if it is common. Ask if it is possible.
Something being possible is not the same as it being likely.
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Something being possible is not the same as it being likely.
90% of ALL past crimes were carried out by males 16-30 yo. So next unrelated crime MUST be carry out by male 16-30 yo? It cannot be carry out by woman 50 yo, for example?
Think about possibility, not likelihood.
Exaggerating ... Imagine 100% of past crimes of type X were carried out by males 16-30 yo. Could you be sure next unrelated type X crime will be not carry out by woman 50 yo?
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Do not ask if it is common. Ask if it is possible.
At the time of the archiving of the PJ investigation all possibiles were still open;
Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Despite this, you have decided, based on your 'system analysis' that the parents can be excluded from suspicion. It would be most interesting to know how that works?
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90% of ALL past crimes were carried out by males 16-30 yo. So next unrelated crime MUST be carry out by male 16-30 yo? It cannot be carry out by woman 50 yo, for example?
Think about possibility, not likelihood.
Exaggerating ... Imagine 100% of past crimes of type X were carried out by males 16-30 yo. Could you be sure next unrelated type X crime will be not carry out by woman 50 yo?
No, but on the basis of past experience, you would exclude male suspects first as there would be a greater likely hood of a result.
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Do not ask if it is common. Ask if it is possible.
Tell me Heriberto, what is your take on the Maddie case, do you accept the abduction claim?
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How many cases of burglar turned abductor are there? Is it common? People are quite happy to accept that possibility, it seems.
No, it's not common but it has happened, so what is your point? It's not every day that a father carries the uncovered corpse of his daughter through a holiday village to throw it in a bin but that is precisely the scenario that a significant percentage of McCann sceptics believe happened. Not you maybe, but you at least appear to tolerate this view and don't question its likelihood.
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90% of ALL past crimes were carried out by males 16-30 yo. So next unrelated crime MUST be carry out by male 16-30 yo? It cannot be carry out by woman 50 yo, for example?
Think about possibility, not likelihood.
Exaggerating ... Imagine 100% of past crimes of type X were carried out by males 16-30 yo. Could you be sure next unrelated type X crime will be not carry out by woman 50 yo?
It could be anyone but let's not kid ourselves and follow leads that don't relate to the actual evidence. There were no glove marks, no evidence of any phantom passing through that tiny narrow window facing a lit car park. None of the tapas 7 saw it open and fingerprints were discovered on the alleged open window. You could target far easier apartments than one facing two roads right next to where they were. No evidence of a getaway car, no sounds, no nothing. She disappeared so you follow up on independent prime suspect witness evidence.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O3SzTUi7uDE/Ul7CST8kYYI/AAAAAAAABUk/kUlpeyZ4KJc/s400/The+Mccanns+returning+home.png)
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I want to highlight something else about that case of a burglary in Nottinghamshire.
"The girl ... was alone for just 15 minutes"
Leaving children home alone exposes them to the serious risk of a burglary happening.
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"Tips For Kids To Stay Safe From Burglars When Home Alone.
... Usually, when someone knocks on the door and a child is home alone, they get quiet and hide; but if that person is a burglar, that's the worst thing they can do. Instead, what they should do is make lots of noise. ... Police say the vast majority of burglars want to hit an empty house, so, to make sure no one is home they knock on doors and windows first. ... To keep burglars out, kids should make noise - blast the TV or yell something like ‘Dad, someone's at the door ..."
http://www.newson6.com/story/31383222/tips-for-kids-to-stay-safe-from-burglars-when-home-alone
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No, it's not common but it has happened, so what is your point? It's not every day that a father carries the uncovered corpse of his daughter through a holiday village to throw it in a bin but that is precisely the scenario that a significant percentage of McCann sceptics believe happened. Not you maybe, but you at least appear to tolerate this view and don't question its likelihood.
I can't find examples of either scenario having happened before. What I do know is that Madeleine disappeared. At the time of her disappearance she was either alive or she was dead. If she was alive she either left on her own or she was taken away by someone. If she was dead her body was taken away by someone and it was either covered or uncovered. People can speculate on all the different possibilities but no-one knows what actually happened. Therefore all scenarios remain possible and can't be ruled out, no matter how unlikely they may appear to some.
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No, it's not common but it has happened, so what is your point? It's not every day that a father carries the uncovered corpse of his daughter through a holiday village to throw it in a bin but that is precisely the scenario that a significant percentage of McCann sceptics believe happened. Not you maybe, but you at least appear to tolerate this view and don't question its likelihood.
If a burglar thinks everyone is out, starts entering, then discovers a child is inside home alone,
by far the most likely outcome is:
the burglar will immediately go away empty handed,
the child will run away from the attempted entry point and hide.
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90% of ALL past crimes were carried out by males 16-30 yo. So next unrelated crime MUST be carry out by male 16-30 yo? It cannot be carry out by woman 50 yo, for example?
Think about possibility, not likelihood.
Exaggerating ... Imagine 100% of past crimes of type X were carried out by males 16-30 yo. Could you be sure next unrelated type X crime will be not carry out by woman 50 yo?
That is over-generalisation. Here is something very specific - what does a home-alone child do when a burglar starts entering? Your theory states the child walked towards the burglar. You can probably quote only one case in the world where that has happened.
I can quote many cases where the child runs in the exact opposite direction and hides.
Why did you pick the extremely unlikely hypothesis of a child walking towards danger, when the commonsense normal behaviour is obviously to run away from danger?
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That is over-generalisation. Here is something very specific - what does a home-alone child do when a burglar starts entering? Your theory states the child walked towards the burglar. You can probably quote only one case in the world where that has happened.
I can quote many cases where the child runs in the exact opposite direction and hides.
Why did you pick the extremely unlikely hypothesis of a child walking towards danger, when the commonsense normal behaviour is obviously to run away from danger?
If she thought he was one of her parents at the window, she could think there was no danger at all.
When she saw he was another person, maybe she was at arm's length.
You may be at danger, and think you are not.
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If she thought he was one of her parents at the window ... (snip)
But she wouldn't think that, Heri.
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If she thought he was one of her parents at the window, she could think there was no danger at all.
When she saw he was another person, maybe she was at arm's length.
You may be at danger, and think you are not.
A few 'ifs' and 'coulds' in order to make it work then? With regard to your system analysis of the timeline, what was your allowable margin of error in the reported times? Five minutes? Ten minutes? Fifteen minutes?
The first timeline written by three of the group had everyone present and seated in the restaurant at 8.45pm, for example. This later became 9pm, a fifteen minute difference. That may or may not be significant but with regard to the time of the alarm being raised fifteen minutes could be very significant indeed.
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But she wouldn't think that, Heri.
She may not have been thinking too clearly at all she could still have been befuddled having just awoken from a deep sleep.
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She may not have been thinking too clearly at all she could still have been befuddled having just awoken from a deep sleep.
"befuddled having just awoken from a deep sleep" is the sort of argument I last heard when returning an item to a shop in Ipswich.
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I can't find examples of either scenario having happened before. What I do know is that Madeleine disappeared. At the time of her disappearance she was either alive or she was dead. If she was alive she either left on her own or she was taken away by someone. If she was dead her body was taken away by someone and it was either covered or uncovered. People can speculate on all the different possibilities but no-one knows what actually happened. Therefore all scenarios remain possible and can't be ruled out, no matter how unlikely they may appear to some.
Therefore your original claim that a burglar when faced with a child in the place he is burgling would run away was not a fact, merely an assumption, or your own un-evidenced opinion. Thanks for clarifying.
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If a burglar thinks everyone is out, starts entering, then discovers a child is inside home alone,
by far the most likely outcome is:
the burglar will immediately go away empty handed,
the child will run away from the attempted entry point and hide.
There has been an authoratative study of this then that you can cite?
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Therefore your original claim that a burglar when faced with a child in the place he is burgling would run away was not a fact, merely an assumption, or your own un-evidenced opinion. Thanks for clarifying.
There was a burglar who ran away, I have never heard of a burglar who decided to switch to child abduction mid-burgle as it were.
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There was a burglar who ran away, I have never heard of a burglar who decided to switch to child abduction mid-burgle as it were.
So what?
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So what?
It would fully explain the open shutter, the open window, the open bedroom door, and the fact the child was no longer in that room, that's what Alf
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It would fully explain the open shutter, the open window, the open bedroom door, and the fact the child was no longer in that room, that's what Alf
The fact that G-Unit had never heard of a burglar switching to child abduction would explain the open shutter, open window, open bedroom door an the fact that the child was no longer in the room how exactly?
Incidentally...
http://articles.philly.com/1994-09-14/news/25837083_1_surprising-burglar-tomlinson-car
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The fact that G-Unit had never heard of a burglar switching to child abduction would explain the open shutter, open window, open bedroom door an the fact that the child was no longer in the room how exactly?
Incidentally...
http://articles.philly.com/1994-09-14/news/25837083_1_surprising-burglar-tomlinson-car
Have you forgotten even Mitchell said there was no evidence of a break in.
As to the window and shutters, nae verification of that either.
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(snip) Incidentally...
http://articles.philly.com/1994-09-14/news/25837083_1_surprising-burglar-tomlinson-car
That burglar had no desire to take the child Alf.
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For G-Unit, and everyone else who has never heard of a burglar turn to child abduction mid-burglary.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2825665/Dad-confronts-kidnapper-saves-5-year-old-daughter.html
"The suspect in this case entered the home through an unlocked side door in the middle-class suburb south of Salt Lake City, Police Sergeant Dean Carriger said.
The intruder was in the family's basement rummaging through their belongings when he came upon the girl sleeping in her bedroom, Carriger said.
The suspect took her out of bed and carried her upstairs. The father told police that he awoke to the sound of creaking stairs and the front door being unlocked and opened."
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The fact that G-Unit had never heard of a burglar switching to child abduction would explain the open shutter, open window, open bedroom door an the fact that the child was no longer in the room how exactly? (snip)
A burglar NOT switching to child abduction, but running away instead, would explain the open shutter, open window, open bedroom door, and the fact that the child was no longer in the room Alf.
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Did the parents give the child instructions on what to do if someone knocked at the door?
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For G-Unit, and everyone else who has never heard of a burglar turn to child abduction mid-burglary.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2825665/Dad-confronts-kidnapper-saves-5-year-old-daughter.html
"The suspect in this case entered the home through an unlocked side door in the middle-class suburb south of Salt Lake City, Police Sergeant Dean Carriger said.
The intruder was in the family's basement rummaging through their belongings when he came upon the girl sleeping in her bedroom, Carriger said.
The suspect took her out of bed and carried her upstairs. The father told police that he awoke to the sound of creaking stairs and the front door being unlocked and opened."
He had no previous for burglary or for an interest in children. He seems to have taken up both that night after taking drugs.
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For G-Unit, and everyone else who has never heard of a burglar turn to child abduction mid-burglary.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2825665/Dad-confronts-kidnapper-saves-5-year-old-daughter.html
"The suspect in this case entered the home through an unlocked side door in the middle-class suburb south of Salt Lake City, Police Sergeant Dean Carriger said.
The intruder was in the family's basement rummaging through their belongings when he came upon the girl sleeping in her bedroom, Carriger said.
The suspect took her out of bed and carried her upstairs. The father told police that he awoke to the sound of creaking stairs and the front door being unlocked and opened."
It doesn't mean there was a burglary or abduction in this case.
You're clutching at straws.
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He had no previous for burglary or for an interest in children. He seems to have taken up both that night after taking drugs.
So when you say "you've never heard of a burglar turning to child abduction mid burglary", the example I posted doesn't count, is that your contention?
Oh my.
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So when you say "you've never heard of a burglar turning to child abduction mid burglary", the example I posted doesn't count, is that your contention?
Oh my.
Clutching straws, and all because many people won't swallow abduction.
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It doesn't mean there was a burglary or abduction in this case.
You're clutching at straws.
No, my example means nothing - it simply proves that the statement "burglars do not turn to child abduction mid burglary" is not a fact, it's simply an assumption.
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So when you say "you've never heard of a burglar turning to child abduction mid burglary", the example I posted doesn't count, is that your contention?
Oh my.
Reading the actual details, he was not interested in the child Alf. He wanted to use the car as a free getaway ride. If he had wanted the child he wouldn't have taken the mother, would he? And he wouldn't have released both of them unharmed, would he?
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Reading the actual details, he was not interested in the child Alf. He wanted to use the car as a free getaway ride. If he had wanted the child he wouldn't have taken the mother, would he? And he wouldn't have released both of them unharmed, would he?
Perhaps you should read the details of the correct case, and the one G-Unit was responding to? But if you can't be bothered, here's yet another example.
http://www.news-mail.com.au/news/man-charged-alleged-abduction-childers-sorry/2231485/
It really is quite bone-chilling just how many of these occurrences there have been in recent times, and I've only gone back three pages on google!
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Yes the Childers case is of a burglar turned abductor
Do you think that is what happened in PDL Alf?
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Thank you Brietta. Heriberto did a system analysis of all witness statements for the period 20.50 to 22.10 on 3rd May and concluded that stranger abduction was the only answer. He discarded two major discrepancies and adjusted minor discrepancies but doesn't say what he classes as minor and why.
I really would be interested in an answer to my questions on this thread to Heriberto concerning his analysis. Apparently it told him that parental involvement was impossible;
April 03, 2016, 03:20:48 PM »
If you read the first three volumes of PJ files, and know about eyewitness testimony dynamics, your unique conclusion should be: physically impossible.
That is why I discard the McCann. Not for their "motivations".
Come on, Heriberto, explain how your 'system analysis' was organised.
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Unsure if Heri's reasoning is similar or different from mine.
But there is no record of Kate and Gerry being simultaneously absent from the restaurant which would have been necessary for them to form any kind of plan.
Hiring a car to transport 'a body' anywhere 3 weeks after Madeleine was abducted is just plain bonkers.
The McCanns' calm and relaxed demeanour on evening May 3rd right up until Kate's dreadful discovery points powerfully to a dreadful but genuine discovery on Kate's check.
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Unsure if Heri's reasoning is similar or different from mine.
But there is no record of Kate and Gerry being simultaneously absent from the restaurant which would have been necessary for them to form any kind of plan.
Hiring a car to transport 'a body' anywhere 3 weeks after Madeleine was abducted is just plain bonkers.
The McCanns' calm and relaxed demeanour on evening May 3rd right up until Kate's dreadful discovery points powerfully to a dreadful but genuine discovery on Kate's check.
No, he analysed the timeline between 8.50 and 10pm.
They were together from 7pm to 8.30pm.
I also largely discount the car theory.
Their demeanor? Just your opinion. According to her friends Kate wasn't relaxed about leaving the door unlocked. (despite having done it since Sunday, according to Russell)
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Unsure if Heri's reasoning is similar or different from mine.
But there is no record of Kate and Gerry being simultaneously absent from the restaurant which would have been necessary for them to form any kind of plan.
Hiring a car to transport 'a body' anywhere 3 weeks after Madeleine was abducted is just plain bonkers.
The McCanns' calm and relaxed demeanour on evening May 3rd right up until Kate's dreadful discovery points powerfully to a dreadful but genuine discovery on Kate's check.
I think you will find the last independent sighting was at 5:30 not 8:30 when they left the apartment. Kate was very talkative that night at the table about an unlocked door, crying and watching football.
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I really would be interested in an answer to my questions on this thread to Heriberto concerning his analysis. Apparently it told him that parental involvement was impossible;
April 03, 2016, 03:20:48 PM »
If you read the first three volumes of PJ files, and know about eyewitness testimony dynamics, your unique conclusion should be: physically impossible.
That is why I discard the McCann. Not for their "motivations".
Come on, Heriberto, explain how your 'system analysis' was organised.
I would be really interested in you answering my own question posed to you earlier. Do you now accept that your statement that burglars do not turn child abductors was not a factually correct statement?
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Yes the Childers case is of a burglar turned abductor
Do you think that is what happened in PDL Alf?
I don't know, all I do know is that it's possible.
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I don't know, all I do know is that it's possible.
So is abduction by aliens, as dave is fond of saying.
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So is abduction by aliens, as dave is fond of saying.
There are no confirmed and proven abductions by aliens however, unlike abduction by a burglar.
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There are no confirmed and proven abductions by aliens however, unlike abduction by a burglar.
and what evidence is there of an abduction in this case ?
By the way, beliefs are irrelevant.
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There are no confirmed and proven abductions by aliens however, unlike abduction by a burglar.
abduction by a burglar morphing is extremely remote...almost non existent....other scenarios are more common therefore more likely....planned abduction, infanticide, fatal accident, wandered off and its various permutations after....
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Fake charity collectors are after money not kids.
It will be avon ladies next
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What would have happened if someone had knocked at the door?
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What would have happened if someone had knocked at the door?
Nothing hopefully if it had been Locked
But one Mccann says it wasnt locked
Its pathetic you leave very young kids alone and dont even lock the bloody doors
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What would have happened if someone had knocked at the door?
Who knows? Don't pretend you do please.
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Who knows? Don't pretend you do please.
It's quite possible that someone might have knocked at the door that evening.
If no-one answered presumably the knocker would assume no-one was home.
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It's quite possible that someone might have knocked at the door that evening.
If no-one answered presumably the knocker would assume no-one was home.
A regular charity collector would not be looking to break into the only door he knocked on.
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A regular charity collector would not be looking to break into the only door he knocked on.
I agree that a genuine charity collector would probably not collect as late as 8.30pm. Also that someone who is knocking to double-check that everyone is out would, if someone opened the door, not use the charity collection excuse, they would be more likely to use the "oh sorry I'm looking for the german family" type excuse. But what would the child do if someone knocked.
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I agree that a genuine charity collector would probably not collect as late as 8.30pm. Also that someone who is knocking to double-check that everyone is out would, if someone opened the door, not use the charity collection excuse, they would be more likely to use the "oh sorry I'm looking for the german family" type excuse. But what would the child do if someone knocked.
I think the open approach by the fraudulent collectors could have had two purposes.
- simply to access some ready cash
- to reconnoitre the approaches to the premises check out security measures and ease of entry and exit also if it looked as if there might be anything worth stealing
invade the premises
[/list]
I don't think these door knockers would be the same people who would later make an illegal entry to the premises. That would be someone acting on the information received from them.
They might have knocked to ascertain if the premises were empty, but that wasn't the MO in Mrs Fenn's home invasion.
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I think the open approach by the fraudulent collectors could have had two purposes.
- simply to access some ready cash
- to reconnoitre the approaches to the premises check out security measures and ease of entry and exit also if it looked as if there might be anything worth stealing
invade the premises
[/list]
I don't think these door knockers would be the same people who would later make an illegal entry to the premises. That would be someone acting on the information received from them.
They might have knocked to ascertain if the premises were empty, but that wasn't the MO in Mrs Fenn's home invasion.
The collectors were describing a genuine charity which helps orphanages, and had done preparation by printing out photos and learning its history and offering receipts. But someone who helps run that charity said they don't do door-to-door collections. So there is a possibility the collectors might have been bogus keeping the donations for themselves.
However IMO the burglar(s) who opened this child's bedroom window and shutter, unintentionally triggering an accident IMO, were just petty burglar(s) nothing to do with any bogus charity collectors.
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The collectors were describing a genuine charity which helps orphanages, and had done preparation by printing out photos and learning its history and offering receipts. But someone who helps run that charity said they don't do door-to-door collections. So there is a possibility the collectors might have been bogus keeping the donations for themselves.
However IMO the burglar(s) who opened this child's bedroom window and shutter, unintentionally triggering an accident IMO, were just petty burglar(s) nothing to do with any bogus charity collectors.
You are of the opinion that they are two entities. It is possible, but until they are traced and eliminated we can't know for sure if they were part of the same team.
At this remove I doubt that will happen.
Whatever; I am absolutely unconvinced that Madeleine met with a fatal accident within the apartment - it is a theory which can only be sustained if an explanation can be found to explain the lack of a body let alone evidence that an accident occurred.
Why would her parents remove her body if as you think no entry was made by an intruder? [/list]
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You are of the opinion that they are two entities. It is possible, but until they are traced and eliminated we can't know for sure if they were part of the same team.
At this remove I doubt that will happen.
Whatever; I am absolutely unconvinced that Madeleine met with a fatal accident within the apartment - it is a theory which can only be sustained if an explanation can be found to explain the lack of a body let alone evidence that an accident occurred.
Why would her parents remove her body if as you think no entry was made by an intruder? [/list]
IMO the person(s) who opened the shutter and window did not disappear the child Brietta. IMO they only triggered the child to leave that room and go at least to another room. I certainly would leave the room PDQ if a burglar opened my bedroom shutter and window. A second "entity" may be unnecessary, for example if that triggered going outside there is then the possibility of disappearance with no other person involved.
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IMO the person(s) who opened the shutter and window did not disappear the child Brietta. IMO they only triggered the child to leave that room and go at least to another room. I certainly would leave the room PDQ if a burglar opened my bedroom shutter and window. A second "entity" may be unnecessary, for example if that triggered going outside there is then the possibility of disappearance with no other person involved.
There is no evidence that Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition and had she done so why would she have vanished without trace?[/list]
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There is no evidence that Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition and had she done so why would she have vanished without trace?[/list]
But also there is no evidence that the child did not leave the apartment of her own volition. For example she could easily have walked out the wooden door or out the lounge glass door. Subjective opinions such as "I don't think a child would close a door behind them" are insufficient to rule this out IMO.
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But also there is no evidence that the child did not leave the apartment of her own volition. For example she could easily have walked out the wooden door or out the lounge glass door. Subjective opinions such as "I don't think a child would close a door behind them" are insufficient to rule this out IMO.
Your opinion that Madeleine would leave the house because of a burglar opening a window is pretty subjective in my book...[/list]
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But also there is no evidence that the child did not leave the apartment of her own volition. For example she could easily have walked out the wooden door or out the lounge glass door. Subjective opinions such as "I don't think a child would close a door behind them" are insufficient to rule this out IMO.
I doubt an adult would have the presence of mind to pull sliding door closed behind them if in a panic, Pegasus. I am certain a child wouldn't.[/list]
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I doubt an adult would have the presence of mind to pull sliding door closed behind them if in a panic, Pegasus. I am certain a child wouldn't.[/list]
If there is any possibility of wandering then it has to be investigated, regardless of subjective conjectures about whether a child or adult might close a door behind them or not. It's lucky the people out searching for almost 48 hours in the following case 6 months ago didn't rule out wandering just because it seemed unlikely http://bit.ly/25LvFag
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Perhaps the sliding door wasn't fully closed and she squeezed through.
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Perhaps the sliding door wasn't fully closed and she squeezed through.
Yes Jassi, the glass door was left slightly open so that checkers could open it from outside because it has no handle outside. A small child would need to open it only a little more to slip out.
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I doubt an adult would have the presence of mind to pull sliding door closed behind them if in a panic, Pegasus. I am certain a child wouldn't.[/list]
Oh, but had the presence of mind to open wndows and shutters even though they used the front door with a borrowed or stolen OC key in order to fool police inspectors...but not in a panic then...yes ok
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Oh, but had the presence of mind to open wndows and shutters even though they used the front door with a borrowed or stolen OC key in order to fool police inspectors...but not in a panic then...yes ok
Pegasus has put forward a scenario in which the child is startled by the opening of the shutter and window and takes off in a panic in one direction while the burglar takes off in another direction having been startled and panicked by discovering the presence of a child.
I disagree that in those circumstances a panicked child would take time to close a door behind herself, particularly a sliding one.[/list]
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We only have one person's statement (Matt ?) that he slid the door to when he left. As he was lax in not viewing all the children, perhaps he was also lax in not shutting the door properly, but didn't like to admit it.
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We only have one person's statement (Matt ?) that he slid the door to when he left. As he was lax in not viewing all the children, perhaps he was also lax in not shutting the door properly, but didn't like to admit it.
The question is not how easily the sliding patio door could be opened from the inside as elsewhere on the forum we have established that it slides open with ease.
In my opinion a child of Madeleine's age and size would probably not have had much of a problem with it. Which rather lets Matt off the hook as there is no question that even if he had been "lax in not shutting the door properly" it would have been irrelevant.
However running away in a panic from danger I think it highly unlikely that anyone let alone a child would have taken time to close the door behind them before vaulting the child gate in an effort to escape.
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The question is not how easily the sliding patio door could be opened from the inside as elsewhere on the forum we have established that it slides open with ease.
In my opinion a child of Madeleine's age and size would probably not have had much of a problem with it. Which rather lets Matt off the hook as there is no question that even if he had been "lax in not shutting the door properly" it would have been irrelevant.
However running away in a panic from danger I think it highly unlikely that anyone let alone a child would have taken time to close the door behind them before vaulting the child gate in an effort to escape.
If searchers in an Ohio case had said "nah don't bother looking it can't be wandering because I have a subjective opinion that a two-year old wouldn't shut a door behind her" then you wouldn't be listening to this 911 call
http://bit.ly/1Vb6om0
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... and anyway a UK police document in the files states the child-gate was possibly observed open at 9.30pm.
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If searchers in an Ohio case had said "nah don't bother looking it can't be wandering because I have a subjective opinion that a two-year old wouldn't shut a door behind her" then you wouldn't be listening to this 911 call
http://bit.ly/1Vb6om0
As I recall one of the criticisms levelled at the Portuguese investigators was the prolonged period over which they continued to search for a child who woke and wandered.
Successful recoveries of the Ohio type do frequently happen. Unfortunately as in Madeleine McCann's case that sometimes is not the happy ending we get.
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In Jan 2008 GM wrote a powerpoint presentation and sent it to police, it stated that BK had spoken to the charity which fitted that described by the collectors, and that the head of the charity had said "No collections are made, as this is illegal in Portugal".
Please can any forum poster living in Portugal confirm that all door-to-door charity collections are illegal?
Is it not possible for a charity to get a permit to do door to door collections?
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Door-to-door charity collections with a license are allowed in Portugal.
http://amovate.com/index.php/2013/06/charity-collectors-around-vale-da-telha/
"The procedure is that any Charity must first obtain a license to collect, from the Cãmara, indicating the days when they will be collecting. The Cãmara then inform the GNR who are made aware of the details."
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If searchers in an Ohio case had said "nah don't bother looking it can't be wandering because I have a subjective opinion that a two-year old wouldn't shut a door behind her" then you wouldn't be listening to this 911 call
http://bit.ly/1Vb6om0
Must be the fridge 8(0(*
"Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment. He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge." (Jose Roque He is an officer with the Lagos GNR and has worked for the Guarda for 21 years.)
Do you think he's an amateur after 21 years? If there was a body inside that tiny apartment it would be discovered. When you have a sighting of her towards the beach then she can't be in the apartment.
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Must be the fridge 8(0(*
"Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment. He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge." (Jose Roque He is an officer with the Lagos GNR and has worked for the Guarda for 21 years.)
Do you think he's an amateur after 21 years? If there was a body inside that tiny apartment it would be discovered. When you have a sighting of her towards the beach then she can't be in the apartment.
There are many cases Pathfinder where far more than one police officer has supposedly completely searched a residence and in fact they missed the child who was actually there. That GNR officer did not do a complete search. Complete means omitting no space. For example did he pull that sofa away from the wall to look behind it? He doesn't mention pulling the sofa away from the wall does he?
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The sofa was pushed up against the wall and the curtain was now trapped. Evidence from dog alerts was found under the tile where the sofa was now covering! It couldn't be up against the wall with a child lying behind it.
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Could a small child be hidden inside that type of sofa?
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You are of the opinion that they are two entities. It is possible, but until they are traced and eliminated we can't know for sure if they were part of the same team.
At this remove I doubt that will happen.
Whatever; I am absolutely unconvinced that Madeleine met with a fatal accident within the apartment - it is a theory which can only be sustained if an explanation can be found to explain the lack of a body let alone evidence that an accident occurred.
Why would her parents remove her body if as you think no entry was made by an intruder? [/list]
What evidence do you need to prove that an accident occurred ? Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment. Couldn't that be an indication that a body had lain there and whether you like it or not there have been cases where a body has been concealed in a bin. Now in the UK where we only have refuse collections every week or so police, doing a thorough search, would more than likely find the body but in PDL, where the bins were emptied early in the morning of the third before they had been searched thoroughly, there is every chance the body went to landfill.
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Door-to-door charity collections with a license are allowed in Portugal.
http://amovate.com/index.php/2013/06/charity-collectors-around-vale-da-telha/
"The procedure is that any Charity must first obtain a license to collect, from the Cãmara, indicating the days when they will be collecting. The Cãmara then inform the GNR who are made aware of the details."
I think to be certain you would need to get a source closer to 2007.
There have been many changes in other regulations in the time that we have been out here.
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What evidence do you need to prove that an accident occurred ?
Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment. Couldn't that be an indication that a body had lain there and whether you like it or not there have been cases where a body has been concealed in a bin. Now in the UK where we only have refuse collections every week or so police, doing a thorough search, would more than likely find the body but in PDL, where the bins were emptied early in the morning of the third before they had been searched thoroughly, there is every chance the body went to landfill.
"Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment." Did he?
Or is there confusion between what is front and what is back?
[/list]
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What evidence do you need to prove that an accident occurred ? Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment. Couldn't that be an indication that a body had lain there and whether you like it or not there have been cases where a body has been concealed in a bin. Now in the UK where we only have refuse collections every week or so police, doing a thorough search, would more than likely find the body but in PDL, where the bins were emptied early in the morning of the third before they had been searched thoroughly, there is every chance the body went to landfill.
How many cases have there been of parents throwing away their child in a bin after they had an accident? What happens to the rubbish when it gets to the landfill?[/list]
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How many cases have there been of parents throwing away their child in a bin after they had an accident? What happens to the rubbish when it gets to the landfill?[/list]
Well, I would have a guess at 'not many'....
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"Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment." Did he?
Or is there confusion between what is front and what is back?
[/list]
There is only one piece of greenery in the vicinity of 5a and that is under the railings just in front of the patio doors. Some unsecured patio doors, a plastic chair and an inquisitive child. A recipe for disaster I'm sure you'll agree.
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There is only one piece of greenery in the vicinity of 5a and that is under the railings just in front of the patio doors. Some unsecured patio doors, a plastic chair and an inquisitive child. A recipe for disaster I'm sure you'll agree.
I know that ... the apartment fronts onto a carpark.
The back is the area which witnesses reported to have apparently been under surveillance during the McCann family occupancy by some individuals.
The small garden area at the back is where an occupant of 5A was approached by a charity collector whether bogus or otherwise on either Wednesday 25 or Thursday 26 April.
Which makes the next holidaymakers to occupy the apartment the McCann family
**snip
I was seated in the paved garden that faced the area of the pool, when I heard a male voice say "Hello". The voice came from the gate that leads to the road at the corner of the apartment and connects to the main reception area.
I stood up and I went to the man who asked me if I would be interested to contribute a donation to an orphanage in the interior mountains. I spoke with him and noticed that he had a badge with identification and that he had what seemed to me to be a book of receipts.
I thought that either he was genuine or a professional "cheat". It was then that I entered the apartment and asked Sal where was the money, and returned with a 10 euro note that I gave to him. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
You posted ... "Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment." ... and there has been some confusion and much criticism of alleged inconsistencies in statements including what exactly is the front of the apartment and what is the back. So it is important to get the terminology as 'pucca' as we can.[/list]
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I know that ... the apartment fronts onto a carpark.
The back is the area which witnesses reported to have apparently been under surveillance during the McCann family occupancy by some individuals.
The small garden area at the back is where an occupant of 5A was approached by a charity collector whether bogus or otherwise on either Wednesday 25 or Thursday 26 April.
Which makes the next holidaymakers to occupy the apartment the McCann family
**snip
I was seated in the paved garden that faced the area of the pool, when I heard a male voice say "Hello". The voice came from the gate that leads to the road at the corner of the apartment and connects to the main reception area.
I stood up and I went to the man who asked me if I would be interested to contribute a donation to an orphanage in the interior mountains. I spoke with him and noticed that he had a badge with identification and that he had what seemed to me to be a book of receipts.
I thought that either he was genuine or a professional "cheat". It was then that I entered the apartment and asked Sal where was the money, and returned with a 10 euro note that I gave to him. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
You posted ... "Eddie alerted in the small garden in front of the apartment." ... and there has been some confusion and much criticism of alleged inconsistencies in statements including what exactly is the front of the apartment and what is the back. So it is important to get the terminology as 'pucca' as we can.[/list]
Indeed.
Now do you agree that Eddie's alert in the patch of greenery just below the patio doors could be indicative of an accident having happened ?
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Indeed.
Now do you agree that Eddie's alert in the patch of greenery just below the patio doors could be indicative of an accident having happened ?
Having watched the video of Eddie's half hearted alert in the garden I have no idea what was going on. Just as I have no idea why his handler removed something from the locale and put it into his pocket ... I cannot remember if it was put into an evidence bag, maybe's aye maybe's no ... and I have no idea what happened to it subsequently whether it was introduced into evidence or not.[/list]
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Having watched the video of Eddie's half hearted alert in the garden I have no idea what was going on. Just as I have no idea why his handler removed something from the locale and put it into his pocket ... I cannot remember if it was put into an evidence bag, maybe's aye maybe's no ... and I have no idea what happened to it subsequently whether it was introduced into evidence or not.[/list]
But you agree that the alert COULD constitute evidence of an accident ?
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Indeed.
Now do you agree that Eddie's alert in the patch of greenery just below the patio doors could be indicative of an accident having happened ?
What you haven't accepted is that you referred to the back as the front which is part and parcel of the oft alleged 'inconsistency' scenario.
The garden where the charity collector approached the previous occupant of 5A before the McCann family, being firmly situated at the back outside the sliding patio doors; and also very likely the same garden where one of the MW nannies was startled by a man stepping towards her in the darkness.[/list]
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But you agree that the alert COULD constitute evidence of an accident ?
I think this discussion is better placed on the appropriate thread if you wish to continue it ... it is off topic on this one ... and for that I am as much to blame as you. [/list]
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I think to be certain you would need to get a source closer to 2007.
There have been many changes in other regulations in the time that we have been out here.
It's clear from this report http://amovate.com/index.php/2013/06/charity-collectors-around-vale-da-telha/ that in 2013 door to door charity collections were legal if a permit for specified collection days was obtained from the Câmara Municipal (town hall). IMO it is likely that the position was the same in 2007. One of the collectors in PDL 2007 told a donator that they were allowed to collect only in one period per year. Possibly the Câmara Municipal does not issue unlimited permits, but limits them to one collection period of few days each year for each charity?
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It's clear from this report http://amovate.com/index.php/2013/06/charity-collectors-around-vale-da-telha/ that in 2013 door to door charity collections were legal if a permit for specified collection days was obtained from the Câmara Municipal (town hall). IMO it is likely that the position was the same in 2007. One of the collectors in PDL 2007 told a donator that they were allowed to collect only in one period per year. Possibly the Câmara Municipal does not issue unlimited permits, but limits them to one collection period of few days each year for each charity?
It might or might not have been the same in 2007.
I vaguely remember one guy saying that if I donated I would not be approached for another 12 months. He did not say how often I would be approached if I did not donate.
The trouble with my 3 incidents is that they referred to an orphanage in Espiche. AFAIK there is no orphanage in Espiche.
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@Shining. At any of the 3 times you were approached, did the collector mention a road accident? Or a craft fair?
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@Shining. At any of the 3 times you were approached, did the collector mention a road accident? Or a craft fair?
No to both.
I'm not sure what the craft fair connection is, but Luz often has craft stalls along the promenade in Summer, and the local mags usually have a craft fair in the vicinity (Luz/Burgau/Lagos).
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No to both.
I'm not sure what the craft fair connection is, but Luz often has craft stalls along the promenade in Summer, and the local mags usually have a craft fair in the vicinity (Luz/Burgau/Lagos).
Thanks. Craft fairs are sometimes held at Espiche (near the vets) and raise money for a selected charity, which for example in 2010 was the charity we are talking about, which supports Lagos children's home.
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Thanks. Craft fairs are sometimes held at Espiche (near the vets) and raise money for a selected charity, which for example in 2010 was the charity we are talking about, which supports Lagos children's home.
It's a real shame the GFM page set up on Mar 23rd to raise funds for supporting an event this year have so far attracted zero donations from the locals. Obviously not as worthwhile a cause as certain others.......
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It's a real shame the GFM page set up on Mar 23rd to raise funds for supporting an event this year have so far attracted zero donations from the locals. Obviously not as worthwhile a cause as certain others.......
The portuguese public have raised far more money to support Lagos state orphanage than for Mr Amaral's defence costs. The UK public on the other hand have IMO donated far more money (millions of pounds) to the limited company (which amongst other things funded suing Mr Amaral) than they have to supporting any UK state orphanage.
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Thanks. Craft fairs are sometimes held at Espiche (near the vets) and raise money for a selected charity, which for example in 2010 was the charity we are talking about, which supports Lagos children's home.
Thank you for this insight. Tis news to me.
8((()*/
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The portuguese public have raised far more money to support Lagos state orphanage than for Mr Amaral's defence costs. The UK public on the other hand have IMO donated far more money (millions of pounds) to the limited company (which amongst other things funded suing Mr Amaral) than they have to supporting any UK state orphanage.
I don't think there are any state orphanages in Britain, Pegasus. There are care homes which cater for children whose parents may be unable to look after them short term or longer. The emphasis now appears to be on fostering or adoption rather than institutions.
There would appear to be no necessity for charitable donations to orphanages in Britain ... and of course there are huge televised drives each year to raise money for children in need from which all children meeting the criteria benefit.
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Noticed this link to the algarve daily news on .....2 and thought it might be of interest to the discussion.
BEWARE - Bogus door-to-door Madrugada collections
Created: 08 April 2016
BEWARE - Bogus door-to-door Madrugada collectionsMadrugada have received reports about a 'scruffy looking' man collecting door-to-door on behalf of Madrugada.
He is in posession of a BOGUS letter from Madrugada, authorising his collection. Madrugada has NOT authorised a door-to-door collection.
Last sighting; Palm Bay Apartments, Rua Direita, Luz.
(http://www.algarvedailynews.com/images/8485.jpg)
http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/8485-beware-bogus-door-to-door-madrugada-collections
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Noticed this link to the algarve daily news on .....2 and thought it might be of interest to the discussion.
BEWARE - Bogus door-to-door Madrugada collections
Created: 08 April 2016
BEWARE - Bogus door-to-door Madrugada collectionsMadrugada have received reports about a 'scruffy looking' man collecting door-to-door on behalf of Madrugada.
He is in posession of a BOGUS letter from Madrugada, authorising his collection. Madrugada has NOT authorised a door-to-door collection.
Last sighting; Palm Bay Apartments, Rua Direita, Luz.
(http://www.algarvedailynews.com/images/8485.jpg)
http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/8485-beware-bogus-door-to-door-madrugada-collections
Times must be really hard for Sir Cliff..........................
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Noticed this link to the algarve daily news on .....2 and thought it might be of interest to the discussion.
BEWARE - Bogus door-to-door Madrugada collections
Created: 08 April 2016
BEWARE - Bogus door-to-door Madrugada collectionsMadrugada have received reports about a 'scruffy looking' man collecting door-to-door on behalf of Madrugada.
He is in posession of a BOGUS letter from Madrugada, authorising his collection. Madrugada has NOT authorised a door-to-door collection.
Last sighting; Palm Bay Apartments, Rua Direita, Luz.
(http://www.algarvedailynews.com/images/8485.jpg)
http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/8485-beware-bogus-door-to-door-madrugada-collections
Thank you Brietta for the link. This proves that there are bogus charity collectors collecting in the Luz area. Collectors with nothing more criminal in mind than is dishonestly conning unsuspecting tourist of their euros.
Kind of puts all the hu ha around Gail Cooper and her 'sighting' in perspective doesn't it ?
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Thank you Brietta for the link. This proves that there are bogus charity collectors collecting in the Luz area. Collectors with nothing more criminal in mind than is dishonestly conning unsuspecting tourist of their euros.
Kind of puts all the hu ha around Gail Cooper and her 'sighting' in perspective doesn't it ?
The perspective I have of a witness making a statement in good faith is that they have fulfilled their civic duty.
My perspective of fraudsters and any other criminals ... is not one of condoning their criminal activities ... nor is it one of trying to second guess what they may be capable of or what their intent may be.
Wonder why the algarve news was concerned enough to report and print the rather eye catching warning graphic for emphasis?
(http://www.algarvedailynews.com/images/8485_1.jpg)
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The perspective I have of a witness making a statement in good faith is that they have fulfilled their civic duty.
My perspective of fraudsters and any other criminals ... is not one of condoning their criminal activities ... nor is it one of trying to second guess what they may be capable of or what their intent may be.
Wonder why the algarve news was concerned enough to report and print the rather eye catching warning graphic for emphasis?
(http://www.algarvedailynews.com/images/8485_1.jpg)
I absolutely agree with you that Gail Cooper gave her first statement in good faith. Unfortunately due to the media's interest her claims over time seemed to get rather more colourful in the telling.
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Thank you Brietta for the link. This proves that there are bogus charity collectors collecting in the Luz area. Collectors with nothing more criminal in mind than is dishonestly conning unsuspecting tourist of their euros.
Kind of puts all the hu ha around Gail Cooper and her 'sighting' in perspective doesn't it ?
This is a bit that intrigues me. If I was a bogus charity collector, would I carry out this scam in Luz, knowing OG is looking for bogus charity collectors in Luz?
Wait a moment. Oh silly me! Crimewatch 2013 didn't get aired on Portuguese TV, did it?
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This is a bit that intrigues me. If I was a bogus charity collector, would I carry out this scam in Luz, knowing OG is looking for bogus charity collectors in Luz?
Wait a moment. Oh silly me! Crimewatch 2013 didn't get aired on Portuguese TV, did it?
I'm not too sure how much or how little effect Crimewatch 2013 had in Portugal. I'm not sure what effect, if any, it would have had in changing attitudes of people who had become convinced of the McCann "guilt" of whatever.
There seems to have been little warning given of home invasions in the Portuguese press with children being assaulted. That the children were the children of tourists may or may not have had a place in that - I don't know.
There was certainly a denial of the burglaries which were prevalent in Luz and the Algarve - how much that may have had to do with 'image' in an area reliant on tourism could have been a reason for that.
The inherent danger associated with an uninvited stranger soliciting money at the door illegally seems to have been recognised by the English speaking part of the Algarve at least.
Knowledge of Madeleine McCann's case is certainly a factor in that as I believe at least one English language reporter has a keen interest in reporting on the case.
On the other hand perhaps the 'bogus collector' feels very invisible and safe to go about business in Luz as so many have questioned the existence of such persons and questioned the veracity or character of those who have encountered them in the flesh.
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I'm not too sure how much or how little effect Crimewatch 2013 had in Portugal. (snip)
Very little effect Brietta, because when TVI and SIC wanted to broadcast the Crimewatch special, the BBC reportedly refused.
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Very little effect Brietta, because when TVI and SIC wanted to broadcast the Crimewatch special, the BBC reportedly refused.
A great shame as Kate is now reported as believing the Madeleine never left Portugal.
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Very little effect Brietta, because when TVI and SIC wanted to broadcast the Crimewatch special, the BBC reportedly refused.
surprised the mccanns didnt complain
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"The Deputy Director of News at Sic Television was meanwhile reported to have exchanged e-mails with the BBC in the days running up to the Crimewatch programme in order to secure the rights to the full programme, but to no avail. 'The BBC said they are not selling the rights', Martim Cabral told The Portugal News, 'therefore we cannot show it.'
Another Portuguese news channel, TVI, told The Portugal News that it had contacted the British national broadcaster prior to the airing of the show, as it sought to 'acquire the programme for Portugal, which was denied.'
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/crimewatch-aired-in-uk-ireland-netherlands-germany-but-why-not-portugal/29659
And yet ...
"BBC Worldwide celebrates 50th country sale of Strictly Come Dancing ... In 2013, new versions of the show launched in Thailand, Portugal and Macedonia."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/worldwide/50th-country-strictly
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Possibly hampering a missing chlld investigation versus watchng the foxtrot....as billy connolly says....who does that except "them"
@)(++(*
great bbc priorities
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"The Deputy Director of News at Sic Television was meanwhile reported to have exchanged e-mails with the BBC in the days running up to the Crimewatch programme in order to secure the rights to the full programme, but to no avail. 'The BBC said they are not selling the rights', Martim Cabral told The Portugal News, 'therefore we cannot show it.'
Another Portuguese news channel, TVI, told The Portugal News that it had contacted the British national broadcaster prior to the airing of the show, as it sought to 'acquire the programme for Portugal, which was denied.'
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/crimewatch-aired-in-uk-ireland-netherlands-germany-but-why-not-portugal/29659
And yet ...
"BBC Worldwide celebrates 50th country sale of Strictly Come Dancing ... In 2013, new versions of the show launched in Thailand, Portugal and Macedonia."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/worldwide/50th-country-strictly
One wonders why there was no problem reaching agreement with broadcasters in other countries to screen the Crimewatch programme appealing for information on Madeleine McCann ... but a stumbling block arose to prevent that happening in Portugal.
At a very sensitive time as far as the Portuguese side of the investigation was concerned and cooperation between the law enforcement agencies of Britain and Portugal being established ... one gets the impression official comment on the situation was very guarded indeed.
However, one wonders why criticism of the programme not being broadcast in Portugal is reserved for the BBC and for some taking the opportunity to upbraid the McCanns for a situation they were powerless to avoid ... when Portugal was the only country where, whatever discussion occurred between law enforcement and whatever commercial discussion took place between broadcasters, there was failure to reach agreement.
Crimewatch aired in UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany, but why not Portugal?
BY BRENDAN DE BEER, IN NEWS · 17-10-2013 14:13:00 · 22 COMMENTS
More than a few eyebrows were raised this week when it became apparent that unlike BBC, RTE, ZDF or AVRO, no Portuguese television station was to air a repeat of the Crimewatch programme which was first shown to millions of viewers on Monday evening.
Conflicting reports were emerging this week as to why Portuguese television had not followed the example of the UK, Ireland, Germany and Netherlands by showing the appeal for information in the search for missing British toddler Madeleine McCann.
One BBC reporter reporting from Praia da Luz on Monday evening told viewers the fact that the programme was not being shown in Portugal was “controversial”, while BBC Radio 4 quoted experts saying they regretted that new leads could be hampered by the fact that there are no plans to show the fresh appeal for information in Portugal.
“We need to get [the Portuguese police] to show the appeal, set aside their political differences, set aside their pride and get to the position where [the forces] are both focused, working together”, criminologist, ex-police officer and child protection expert Mark Williams-Thomas was quoted as telling BBC Radio 4’s Today programme this week.
His comments were then widely re-printed in a number of publications, including the Guardian.
When questioned as to the reasons for Crimewatch not being shown in Portugal, the Metropolitan Police Service responded that there is no such show in Portugal, while the UK, Ireland, Germany and the Netherlands have regular television programmes appealing for viewers’ assistance in solving crime.
Portuguese police would therefore be unable to force any of the country’s networks to alter scheduling unless they unilaterally decided to do so.
Clips of the programme are available from the Metropolitan Police Service’s Press Bureau and have been shown on Portuguese television this week.
The BBC, in response to questions from The Portugal News over Crimewatch failing to make it on to the television screens of viewers in the country where Madeleine McCann disappeared, explained:
“We have provided clips of the Crimewatch programme to international broadcasters to assist them in their coverage of the appeal, and the Crimewatch film is available on the BBC Crimewatch website to international audiences.
“The decision on broadcasting an appeal on an equivalent programme in Portugal is a matter for the Portuguese broadcasters, Portuguese police and The Metropolitan Police”, the statement read.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/crimewatch-aired-in-uk-ireland-netherlands-germany-but-why-not-portugal/29659
There was also an element of Portuguese public interest which was ignored as information on crimes and criminals operating in their midst was an element of the Crimewatch appeal.
**snip
Police are also looking into bogus charity collectors who were operating in the area at the time. On the day that Madeleine disappeared, properties were targeted four times, say detectives.
Police have released two efits of Portuguese men. One, aged 40-45, knocked on the door of the apartment where the McCanns were to stay on 25 or 26 April between 2.30pm and 3pm, saying he was a charity collector. The other, aged 25-30, approached a property on the Rua do Ramalhete, near the Ocean Club, at around 4pm on 3 May.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/15/madeleine-mccann-same-name-efit-appeal-crimewatch
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CM and another spinner attempted to spin it as the Portuguese broadcasters refusing to broadcast the Crimewatch special. However the facts are that both TVI and SIC wanted to broadcast it and asked for permission but were denied permission. How absolutely ridiculous, making a TV programme appealing for witnesses to a disappearance in Portugal, and then refusing permission for it to be broadcast in full in Portugal.
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CM and another spinner attempted to spin it as the Portuguese broadcasters refusing to broadcast the Crimewatch special. However the facts are that both TVI and SIC wanted to broadcast it and asked for permission but were denied permission. How absolutely ridiculous, making a TV programme appealing for witnesses to a disappearance in Portugal, and then refusing permission for it to be broadcast in full in Portugal.
The short and tall of it in a nutshell..portugal wanted to show it, they were denied, the mccann pr team blaming the porguguese, typical
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The short and tall of it in a nutshell..portugal wanted to show it, they were denied, the mccann pr team blaming the porguguese, typical
Yes that's it in a nutshell Merc. What if there are witnesses who saw where smithman went after the smith sighting? Or some more witnesses with information about charity collectors. And what if those witnesses are portuguese speaking portuguese people in portugal. They would never get a chance to watch Mr Redwood's Crimewatch special on TV and realise they needed to come forward.
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Its quite bizarre, that people living in the countrywho could have witnessed smithman were not given the opportunity of jogging their memories, but only tourists were ie vis a vis it being shown in the netherlands uk etc etc
Then again no one living anywhere in the world was given the opportunity of naming the efits which were available from 2008
And a small proportion afforded it in 2013
All very odd
Final goodnight
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CM and another spinner attempted to spin it as the Portuguese broadcasters refusing to broadcast the Crimewatch special. However the facts are that both TVI and SIC wanted to broadcast it and asked for permission but were denied permission. How absolutely ridiculous, making a TV programme appealing for witnesses to a disappearance in Portugal, and then refusing permission for it to be broadcast in full in Portugal.
do you have any real evidence to support this
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As it would appear that no equivalent programme has ever been shown in Portugal - could the reason for that be because it would conflict with their Secrecy Laws? Just wondering.
I'm presuming that none of the other countries who did show it had the the same law to consider.
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As it would appear that no equivalent programme has ever been shown in Portugal - could the reason for that be because it would conflict with their Secrecy Laws? Just wondering.
I'm presuming that none of the other countries who did show it had the the same law to consider.
I've wondered about that as well.
There was coverage of some of the essential bits in PT, but I'm not aware of any dedicated type of similar programme in PT.
A different potential issue (which might have applied more to TVI than SIC) could have been a suspicion that TVI might have used it with the usual rent-a-gobs as part of a panel discussion. The Met and the PJ investigations hardly needed guest appearances by Amaral, Anjos, Flores, Sargento and the rest of the Amaral fan-club, plus a live mccannswhatdunit poll.
SIC may have been more responsible about it, but wasn't it on a SIC * chat show that Barra da Costa announced that a "source" had assured him that the McCanns were swingers? (Not certain, but from memory it wasn't TVI.)
* Correction: just checked, apparently it wasn't SIC, it was RTP.
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I've wondered about that as well.
There was coverage of some of the essential bits in PT, but I'm not aware of any dedicated type of similar programme in PT.
A different potential issue (which might have applied more to TVI than SIC) could have been a suspicion that TVI might have used it with the usual rent-a-gobs as part of a panel discussion. The Met and the PJ investigations hardly needed guest appearances by Amaral, Anjos, Flores, Sargento and the rest of the Amaral fan-club, plus a live mccannswhatdunit poll.
SIC may have been more responsible about it, but wasn't it on a SIC chat show that Barra da Costa announced that a "source" had assured him that the McCanns were swingers? (Not certain, but from memory it wasn't TVI.)
I think that whatever happened to prevent the broadcast of the Crimewatch appeal on behalf of Madeleine was a problem entirely confined to the Portuguese side of the equation.
Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of xenophobia think about the delicate internal situation in the country.
The Policia Judiciaria had been conducting their own review into Madeleine's case. They were in the process of negotiating the reopening of Madeleine's case which must have been politically sensitive.
Although their investigation concurred with Scotland Yard's that neither Madeleine's parents or their friends were not involved in her disappearance and they were looking at stranger involvement ... it had taken a different route and had different suspects in mind.
Imagine for a moment a reversal of the situation and the offence had been committed against a Portuguese child in a seaside town in Britain. A Portuguese prime time TV programme organised by the PJ, who have just reopened the case) is broadcast here which is looking at a different aspect of the case from our law enforcement which unbeknownst to us will shortly announce their own reinvestigation.
The Portugal News article suggests that the PJ and SY were in discussion as far as the programme went ... I am sure they would be able to envisage the dichotomy it might present for a Portuguese audience whose home force would be revealed within days as presenting their own investigative outcomes to them.
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I think that whatever happened to prevent the broadcast of the Crimewatch appeal on behalf of Madeleine was a problem entirely confined to the Portuguese side of the equation.
Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of xenophobia think about the delicate internal situation in the country.
The Policia Judiciaria had been conducting their own review into Madeleine's case. They were in the process of negotiating the reopening of Madeleine's case which must have been politically sensitive.
Although their investigation concurred with Scotland Yard's that neither Madeleine's parents or their friends were not involved in her disappearance and they were looking at stranger involvement ... it had taken a different route and had different suspects in mind.
Imagine for a moment a reversal of the situation and the offence had been committed against a Portuguese child in a seaside town in Britain. A Portuguese prime time TV programme organised by the PJ, who have just reopened the case) is broadcast here which is looking at a different aspect of the case from our law enforcement which unbeknownst to us will shortly announce their own reinvestigation.
The Portugal News article suggests that the PJ and SY were in discussion as far as the programme went ... I am sure they would be able to envisage the dichotomy it might present for a Portuguese audience whose home force would be revealed within days as presenting their own investigative outcomes to them.
I can find no cites supporting the bolded statement.
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I can find no cites supporting the bolded statement.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ozLkbUfiVwQ/UmwtrndJExI/AAAAAAAAKng/zvXA8QsxG0I/s1600/FireShot+Screen+Capture+%23122+-+%27PressDisplay_com+-+R%C3%A9plicas+de+Jornais+de+Todo+o+Mundo%27+-+www_pressdisplay_com_pressdisplay_pt_viewer_aspx.png)
PJ creates new team to investigate the Maddie case
26 October 2013 | Posted by Joana Morais
Investigation. In view of the existence of new evidence, within days it will be decided who will investigate the disappearance of the English child. Portuguese police deny pressures and say, that despite the “close relationship”, they will run a parallel investigation to the Scotland Yard
by Alfredo Teixeira
The Judiciary Police (PJ) reopened the investigation concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and they warrant that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects. To the DN the Portuguese police disclosed that there are “new evidence” about what has happened to the child while she slept together with her two twin siblings, in the apartment at the tourist resort. They do not disclose the existence of suspects and only reveal that internally, in the coming days, a team will be created to resume the investigation.
When, last week, on the 17th, the PJ hierarchy met with the Scotland Yard assistant commissioner Mark Rowley and DCI Andy Redwood, who heads the approximately 37 agents working in the British investigation, the decision to request the reopening of the investigation to the Public Ministry (MP) was communicated.
The Portuguese police denies any pressure from the English, stressing that they did not cooperate directly with the Scotland Yard investigation. However, information gathered by the English police, mainly related to the past of some people that were referenced in the case files, would have complemented the analysis by the investigation team in Portugal.
“There were elements gathered that have to do with events before the disappearance of the child and others after. Relating them with those contained in the process already archived have raised a more than reasonable doubt about what happened to the child,” said a source close to the investigation to the DN, adding that a in meeting with Gerry and Kate McCann, and the lawyers of the couple, the PJ asked “absolute silence” about the investigation.
At the headquarters of the London Metropolitan Police who have been working on the case for over a year [sic, for over two years], Scotland Yard said to have found new relevant information, based on the forty thousand documents and clues collected by the police forces from Portugal, UK and eight different companies of private detective and just a few days ago they showed e-fits of a suspect.
A source of the PJ that hasn't, however, worked for this process, does not set aside the divulgation of images of the same kind if appropriate. It acknowledges, however, the important of the work done by the Regional Section of Criminal Investigation and Prevention of the PJ from Porto, led by the coordinator Helena Monteiro. Notwithstanding the formal archival of the investigation, that team was on the field since March last year, searching for leads to follow and in order to fill any eventual gaps in the initial investigations.
That reanalysis task has “helped identify new evidence, which by imposing further investigation, meet the requirements set by article 279º no 1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure for the reopening of the investigation.” said the PJ in a statement. “Similarly to what happens in all the cases of missing children, notwithstanding the formal archival of the investigation concerning her disappearance, and as was always publicly stated, the Judiciary Police continued to be attentive to any and all information likely to enable the understanding of the whereabouts of the minor Madeleine McCann, the circumstances in which her disappearance occurred and the identity of its author(s),” the PJ clarified.
Also yesterday, a note from the Attorney General's Office (PGR) said that the Public Ministry (MP) decided to reopen the investigation. It was on July 21, 2008 that the PGR announced the archival of the process concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and removed the status of arguidos from the parents of the English minor and Robert Murat, with the proviso that they could reopen the process at any time if “new elements of evidence” surfaced, evidence which they now claim to exist as the result of the identification of witnesses who were never heard.
Experience in missing people cases
With the investigation archived since July 2008, it was the National Direction of the PJ who, in March 2011 [sic, 2012], assigned to a team of investigators from the North Directorship the task to re-analyse the whole wide range of information in the process, with the objective of identifying information whose further understanding could be revealed useful and possible. Leading the group of four inspectors was the coordinator Helena Monteiro, with experience in missing people cases, namely the young lady from Lamego, Carina Ferreira, whose body was found after a month of searches at the bottom of a ravine near a motorway. Helena Monteiro has worked, among other areas of investigation, in the fight against violent criminality.
Diário de Notícias, October 25, 2013, paper edition
Refs.
Oporto PJ goes through Madeleine McCann case with a fine toothed comb March 2012
Loose ends of the case only cleared up with the process reopened March 2012
Virtual reconstitution tests witnesses’ version March 2012
Maddie Case: Vanishing Revisited March 2012
Just as the Scotland Yard investigation indicated other avenues to follow in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance the thinking being that bogus charity collectors, burglars and a pervert entering homes where there were young girls ... might have stories to tell.
The PJ inquiry also pointed away from people who had been exhaustively investigated and already eliminated from the inquiry in 2008.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ozLkbUfiVwQ/UmwtrndJExI/AAAAAAAAKng/zvXA8QsxG0I/s1600/FireShot+Screen+Capture+%23122+-+%27PressDisplay_com+-+R%C3%A9plicas+de+Jornais+de+Todo+o+Mundo%27+-+www_pressdisplay_com_pressdisplay_pt_viewer_aspx.png)
PJ creates new team to investigate the Maddie case
26 October 2013 | Posted by Joana Morais
Investigation. In view of the existence of new evidence, within days it will be decided who will investigate the disappearance of the English child. Portuguese police deny pressures and say, that despite the “close relationship”, they will run a parallel investigation to the Scotland Yard
by Alfredo Teixeira
The Judiciary Police (PJ) reopened the investigation concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and they warrant that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects. To the DN the Portuguese police disclosed that there are “new evidence” about what has happened to the child while she slept together with her two twin siblings, in the apartment at the tourist resort. They do not disclose the existence of suspects and only reveal that internally, in the coming days, a team will be created to resume the investigation.
When, last week, on the 17th, the PJ hierarchy met with the Scotland Yard assistant commissioner Mark Rowley and DCI Andy Redwood, who heads the approximately 37 agents working in the British investigation, the decision to request the reopening of the investigation to the Public Ministry (MP) was communicated.
The Portuguese police denies any pressure from the English, stressing that they did not cooperate directly with the Scotland Yard investigation. However, information gathered by the English police, mainly related to the past of some people that were referenced in the case files, would have complemented the analysis by the investigation team in Portugal.
“There were elements gathered that have to do with events before the disappearance of the child and others after. Relating them with those contained in the process already archived have raised a more than reasonable doubt about what happened to the child,” said a source close to the investigation to the DN, adding that a in meeting with Gerry and Kate McCann, and the lawyers of the couple, the PJ asked “absolute silence” about the investigation.
At the headquarters of the London Metropolitan Police who have been working on the case for over a year [sic, for over two years], Scotland Yard said to have found new relevant information, based on the forty thousand documents and clues collected by the police forces from Portugal, UK and eight different companies of private detective and just a few days ago they showed e-fits of a suspect.
A source of the PJ that hasn't, however, worked for this process, does not set aside the divulgation of images of the same kind if appropriate. It acknowledges, however, the important of the work done by the Regional Section of Criminal Investigation and Prevention of the PJ from Porto, led by the coordinator Helena Monteiro. Notwithstanding the formal archival of the investigation, that team was on the field since March last year, searching for leads to follow and in order to fill any eventual gaps in the initial investigations.
That reanalysis task has “helped identify new evidence, which by imposing further investigation, meet the requirements set by article 279º no 1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure for the reopening of the investigation.” said the PJ in a statement. “Similarly to what happens in all the cases of missing children, notwithstanding the formal archival of the investigation concerning her disappearance, and as was always publicly stated, the Judiciary Police continued to be attentive to any and all information likely to enable the understanding of the whereabouts of the minor Madeleine McCann, the circumstances in which her disappearance occurred and the identity of its author(s),” the PJ clarified.
Also yesterday, a note from the Attorney General's Office (PGR) said that the Public Ministry (MP) decided to reopen the investigation. It was on July 21, 2008 that the PGR announced the archival of the process concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and removed the status of arguidos from the parents of the English minor and Robert Murat, with the proviso that they could reopen the process at any time if “new elements of evidence” surfaced, evidence which they now claim to exist as the result of the identification of witnesses who were never heard.
Experience in missing people cases
With the investigation archived since July 2008, it was the National Direction of the PJ who, in March 2011 [sic, 2012], assigned to a team of investigators from the North Directorship the task to re-analyse the whole wide range of information in the process, with the objective of identifying information whose further understanding could be revealed useful and possible. Leading the group of four inspectors was the coordinator Helena Monteiro, with experience in missing people cases, namely the young lady from Lamego, Carina Ferreira, whose body was found after a month of searches at the bottom of a ravine near a motorway. Helena Monteiro has worked, among other areas of investigation, in the fight against violent criminality.
Diário de Notícias, October 25, 2013, paper edition
Refs.
Oporto PJ goes through Madeleine McCann case with a fine toothed comb March 2012
Loose ends of the case only cleared up with the process reopened March 2012
Virtual reconstitution tests witnesses’ version March 2012
Maddie Case: Vanishing Revisited March 2012
Just as the Scotland Yard investigation indicated other avenues to follow in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance the thinking being that bogus charity collectors, burglars and a pervert entering homes where there were young girls ... might have stories to tell.
The PJ inquiry also pointed away from people who had been exhaustively investigated and already eliminated from the inquiry in 2008.
Speculation by the Portuguese press? It must be true then.
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Although their investigation concurred with Scotland Yard's that neither Madeleine's parents or their friends were not involved in her disappearance and they were looking at stranger involvement (Post 393)
When asked for a cite they posted a newspaper article saying;
they warrant that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects.;
Firstly, the quote was exaggerated and secondly no source was identified by the newspaper.
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Although their investigation concurred with Scotland Yard's that neither Madeleine's parents or their friends were not involved in her disappearance and they were looking at stranger involvement (Post 393)
When asked for a cite they posted a newspaper article saying;
they warrant that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects.;
Firstly, the quote was exaggerated and secondly no source was identified by the newspaper.
Your comment does not make any sense to me.
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There was no mention of any charity collectors re the disturbed attempted burglary of 5G.
There was no mention of any charity collectors re the successful burglary of a nearby groundfloor apartment.
There was no mention of any charity collectors re the successful burglary of 5L (yes a stranger had knocked at the door of 5L a little earlier, but he used the excuse of looking for some family who weren't staying there, he wasn't collecting for charity).
There is no link between charity collectors (bogus or real) and these burglaries.
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There was no mention of any charity collectors re the disturbed attempted burglary of 5G.
There was no mention of any charity collectors re the successful burglary of a nearby groundfloor apartment.
There was no mention of any charity collectors re the successful burglary of 5L (yes a stranger had knocked at the door of 5L a little earlier, but he used the excuse of looking for some family who weren't staying there, he wasn't collecting for charity).
There is no link between charity collectors (bogus or real) and these burglaries.
The way to determine that is to find out who they are and ask the question of them.
Just as the only way to eliminate the men seen by witnesses around the McCann holiday residence is to locate them and find out what their purpose was in the area.
Could indeed have nothing to do with burglaries - the burglaries and other home invasions might have nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
However no-one can be exonerated until they have been found and interviewed by law enforcement.
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The way to determine that is to find out who they are and ask the question of them.
Just as the only way to eliminate the men seen by witnesses around the McCann holiday residence is to locate them and find out what their purpose was in the area.
Could indeed have nothing to do with burglaries - the burglaries and other home invasions might have nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
However no-one can be exonerated until they have been found and interviewed by law enforcement.
A first step might be to go to the Câmara Municipal (not sure if that would be PDL or Lagos) and ask for records of what charity collection permits were issued for the relevant dates.
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A first step might be to go to the Câmara Municipal (not sure if that would be PDL or Lagos) and ask for records of what charity collection permits were issued for the relevant dates.
I think the police will have already done that to eliminate any legitimate collectors, if there were any.
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A first step might be to go to the Câmara Municipal (not sure if that would be PDL or Lagos) and ask for records of what charity collection permits were issued for the relevant dates.
It's in Lagos at the E end of Avenida da Republica.
You need to go there for all sorts of things. To pay utility bills not on direct debit. To set up direct debits for utility bills. To matriculate (import) cars. To pay motorway toll charges. To get all sorts of the many licences for businesses. From memory, it is in the PJ Files re engineering works and pipe networks.
I wonder if Crimewatch called the charity collectors simply 'bogus' or used some sort of fudge term like 'allegedly bogus'.
There is a local administration in Luz but to be honest I've no idea what it is responsible for, since I've never heard anyone speak of using it.
Anyway, Lagos Camara Municipal, Aug 2009.
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It's in Lagos at the E end of Avenida da Republica.
You need to go there for all sorts of things. To pay utility bills not on direct debit. To set up direct debits for utility bills. To matriculate (import) cars. To pay motorway toll charges. To get all sorts of the many licences for businesses. From memory, it is in the PJ Files re engineering works and pipe networks.
I wonder if Crimewatch called the charity collectors simply 'bogus' or used some sort of fudge term like 'allegedly bogus'.
There is a local administration in Luz but to be honest I've no idea what it is responsible for, since I've never heard anyone speak of using it.
Anyway, Lagos Camara Municipal, Aug 2009.
Thanks Shining. Probably the Câmara would not store collection permit records from 9 years ago
BTW were you in Portugal when the Crimewatch special was broadcast there?
(A trick question obviously)
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Thanks Shining. Probably the Câmara would not store collection permit records from 9 years ago
BTW were you in Portugal when the Crimewatch special was broadcast there?
(A trick question obviously)
Yes. I watched it on BBC via Filmon, I think. Maybe Sky. There are people out here who make a living out of ensuring foreign broadcasts can be seen, and those services are popular with people who don't speak Portuguese.
The BBC had complained that it was not making any revenue out of such broadcasts via Sky while commercial companies could get additional advertising, so Sky took the lot off 'our' satellite about 2 years ago.
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Yes. I watched it on BBC via Filmon, I think. Maybe Sky. There are people out here who make a living out of ensuring foreign broadcasts can be seen, and those services are popular with people who don't speak Portuguese.
The BBC had complained that it was not making any revenue out of such broadcasts via Sky while commercial companies could get additional advertising, so Sky took the lot off 'our' satellite about 2 years ago.
I wonder how many responses the BBC Crimewatch Special actually got from potential witnesses in Portugal who speak only Portuguese and don't speak English? Probably absolutely none.
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I wonder how many responses the BBC Crimewatch Special actually got from potential witnesses in Portugal who speak only Portuguese and don't speak English? Probably absolutely none.
I suspect, but cannot prove, that some of the calls were made by ex-pats here. That is based on the pattern of people interviewed just before DCI Redwood retired.
The general mood here is one of 'time to move on', so I would be surprised if many people who lived through the incident bothered to watch.
AFAIK, the programme was covered in advance by Portuguese media, basically along the lines that SY had a new suspect, and here were the e-fits. There was nothing in the programme to 'appeal' to the Portuguese, nor to make it easy for them to respond. And I doubt many Portuguese prioritise the BBC over local media anyway.
All in all, a big opportunity that was missed.
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I suspect, but cannot prove, that some of the calls were made by ex-pats here. That is based on the pattern of people interviewed just before DCI Redwood retired.
The general mood here is one of 'time to move on', so I would be surprised if many people who lived through the incident bothered to watch.
AFAIK, the programme was covered in advance by Portuguese media, basically along the lines that SY had a new suspect, and here were the e-fits. There was nothing in the programme to 'appeal' to the Portuguese, nor to make it easy for them to respond. And I doubt many Portuguese prioritise the BBC over local media anyway.
All in all, a big opportunity that was missed.
isn't it true that most portuguese think the mccanns are guilty...because of what amaral and the press wrote
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isn't it true that most portuguese think the mccanns are guilty...because of what amaral and the press wrote
Can you demonstrate that what Amaral and the press wrote caused the Portuguese people to think the McCanns are guilty? I don't think it's quite so simple as just saying it, as the McCanns themselves discovered when they asserted that Amaral's activities 'harmed the search for Madeleine'. That was shown to be merely opinion, just like your statement.
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isn't it true that most portuguese think the mccanns are guilty...because of what amaral and the press wrote
I think most Portuguese think the McCanns are guilty of something, even if that something is limited to child neglect.
I don't see the book as the issue. I would find it really hard to take you to a bookseller here.
The 'documentary', IMO, was crucial. That seems to have been the Smithman = Gerry time.
From that point on, trying to get an unbiased evaluation inside Portugal was like trying to push water uphill. It still is.
The PR expertise funded by the McCanns didn't know where the real battleground was. And judging by CM in Australia, they still don't.
All in my opinion.
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Can you demonstrate that what Amaral and the press wrote caused the Portuguese people to think the McCanns are guilty? I don't think it's quite so simple as just saying it, as the McCanns themselves discovered when they asserted that Amaral's activities 'harmed the search for Madeleine'. That was shown to be merely opinion, just like your statement.
amaral wrote that maddie died in the apartment...the mccanns covered up her death and disposed of the body. He repeated his claims on a documentary on TV. The press printed lies that were repeated in the UK papers
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amaral wrote that maddie died in the apartment...the mccanns covered up her death and disposed of the body. He repeated his claims on a documentary on TV. The press printed lies that were repeated in the UK papers
I know all that. What no-one knows is if there is any causal link between that and the opinions of Portuguese people.
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amaral wrote that maddie died in the apartment...the mccanns covered up her death and disposed of the body. He repeated his claims on a documentary on TV. The press printed lies that were repeated in the UK papers
It has yet to be determined what fate befell Madeleine.
Accidental death is one of the possibilities.
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It has yet to be determined what fate befell Madeleine.
Accidental death is one of the possibilities.
amaral stated it as fact...remember
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I know all that. What no-one knows is if there is any causal link between that and the opinions of Portuguese people.
its called stating the obvious
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its called stating the obvious
That wont do, it didnt for the judge in the recent case and shouldnt imo for anyone else, especially as many portuguese had suspicions well well before any book
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That wont do, it didnt for the judge in the recent case and shouldnt imo for anyone else, especially as many portuguese had suspicions well well before any book
its called stating the obvious....I wouldnt expect a sceptic such as yourself to agree...it doesn't matter that you don't
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its called stating the obvious....I wouldnt expect a sceptic such as yourself to agree...it doesn't matter that you don't
But it is not obvious as you have not quantified or qualified your claim at the very least. The fact you are making blank statements and refusing to discuss them and fob off questions by reiterating the same blank statements and then getting personal shows readers what they need to know IMO of course
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But it is not obvious as you have not quantified or qualified your claim at the very least. The fact you are making blank statements and refusing to discuss them and fob off questions by reiterating the same blank statements and then getting personal shows readers what they need to know IMO of course
not personal as I would not expect any sceptic to agree....but it is stating the obvious....supporters will agree...sceptics wont...and if we had 500 posts debatating it nothing would change
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not personal as I would not expect any sceptic to agree....but it is stating the obvious....supporters will agree...sceptics wont...and if we had 500 posts debatating it nothing would change
How is it obvious? You were asked a question about the causal link...you have given no causal link and, again, qualified or quantified or set any meaningful numerical or time parameters on your blanket "its obvious"
Not very scientific or logical is it? And what you expect of sceptics and supporters is not the subject and neither can you assume to think you know what they think in every given matter, there,thats the end of it
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How is it obvious? You were asked a question about the causal link...you have given no causal link and, again, qualified or quantified or set any meaningful numerical or time parameters on your blanket "its obvious"
Not very scientific or logical is it? And what you expect of sceptics and supporters is not the subject and neither can you assume to think you know what they think in every given matter, there,thats the end of it
amaral claimed the dog alerts proved maddie died in the apartment.....he was wrong...they proved nothing.....that has convinced many people the mccanns are guilty of a cover up . It is a simple as that. it is only your bias and your lack of understanding of the alerts that is stopping you seeing the truth
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amaral claimed the dog alerts proved maddie died in the apartment.....he was wrong...they proved nothing.....that has convinced many people the mccanns are guilty of a cover up . It is a simple as that. it is only your bias and your lack of understanding of the alerts that is stopping you seeing the truth
You on the other hand do not have a clue as to whether the mccanns have told the truth in this case.
That is your belief and your bias.
Their accounts lack consistency from the start.
e.g. Why at the start did they first state the apartment was locked, which then became unlocked ?
So which is the truth ?
Similarly, why did they lock the apartment during the daytime, then in their second version of events leave it unlocked at night ?
Very little of the mccanns behaviour demonstrates either logic, let alone good childcare. IMO of course.
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You on the other hand do not have a clue as to whether the mccanns have told the truth in this case.
That is your belief and your bias.
Their accounts lack consistency from the start.
e.g. Why at the start did they first state the apartment was locked, which then became unlocked ?
So which is the truth ?
Similarly, why did they lock the apartment during the daytime, then in their second version of events leave it unlocked at night ?
Very little of the mccanns behaviour demonstrates either logic, let alone good childcare. IMO of course.
I have more than a clue so you are wrong once again. SY declared the mccanns not suspects and therefore believed they were telling the truth. That is evidence they are telling the truth from the poeple who really count...your post is your opinion and therefore of no importance
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I have more than a clue so you are wrong once again. SY declared the mccanns not suspects and therefore believed they were telling the truth. That is evidence they are telling the truth from the poeple who really count...your post is your opinion and therefore of no importance
SY have failed to find anything.
The investigation is on it's last legs with just about enough money to pay for the 4 remaining peoples salaries and nothing else.
A thorough investigation would have examined all scenarios, and that would have included re-questioning of the main parties involved.
SY have never indicated they questioned these people and simply read their previous statements.
As I predicted from the onset, the investigation would go nowhere.
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SY have failed to find anything.
The investigation is on it's last legs with just about enough money to pay for the 4 remaining peoples salaries and nothing else.
A thorough investigation would have examined all scenarios, and that would have included re-questioning of the main parties involved.
SY have never indicated they questioned these people and simply read their previous statements.
As I predicted from the onset, the investigation would go nowhere.
more rambling with no substance...same over and over again
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more rambling with no substance...same over and over again
Not rambling.
Merely the facts.
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not personal as I would not expect any sceptic to agree....but it is stating the obvious....supporters will agree...sceptics wont...and if we had 500 posts debatating it nothing would change
People who belong to the sects who predict the world will end on a particular date all agree with each other. Does that make them right? I think it just makes them equally deluded.
Using any academic (particularly scientific) standards your apparent lack of any evidence to support it makes your x caused y statement merely unverifiable opinion.
No-one knows why the Portuguese people seem to have rejected the McCann's version of events, just as no-one knows why many UK people agree with them. I expect the causes are many and varied.
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People who belong to the sects who predict the world will end on a particular date all agree with each other. Does that make them right? I think it just makes them equally deluded.
Using any academic (particularly scientific) standards your apparent lack of any evidence to support it makes your x caused y statement merely unverifiable opinion.
No-one knows why the Portuguese people seem to have rejected the McCann's version of events, just as no-one knows why many UK people agree with them. I expect the causes are many and varied.
you are in no position to lecture me on academic standards...your problem is that you do not understand what evidence is and how to assess it. It is quite obvious now...based on all the evidence...that the McCanns are not involved. You only had to look on amarals gofundme page to see how many people accepted amarals views on the dogs...if you cannot see how he has influenced people then that is your failing
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SY have failed to find anything.
The investigation is on it's last legs with just about enough money to pay for the 4 remaining peoples salaries and nothing else.
A thorough investigation would have examined all scenarios, and that would have included re-questioning of the main parties involved.
SY have never indicated they questioned these people and simply read their previous statements.
As I predicted from the onset, the investigation would go nowhere.
Why would you expect SY to inform the public about who they interviewed during this investigation - when you know they specifically stated that they would not be giving a running commentary to the public?
For instance - it's obvious that SY must have interviewed the parents of the UK children who were assaulted in their own bedrooms in Portugal at some time during the investigation.
Why would SY just go by the summarised statements of witnesses - when they can talk to those witnesses in person and get the full picture - rather than the shortened version?
A great deal of time is spent on here discussing, debating and querying those statements - because that's all we have. Anyone who thinks SY would spend their time doing the same - when they could actually speak to the witnesses themselves if they needed clarification - or if they had questions to ask which may not already have been asked - is being unrealistic IMO.
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Why would you expect SY to inform the public about who they interviewed during this investigation - when you know they specifically stated that they would not be giving a running commentary to the public?
For instance - it's obvious that SY must have interviewed the parents of the UK children who were assaulted in their own bedrooms in Portugal at some time during the investigation.
Why would SY just go by the summarised statements of witnesses - when they can talk to those witnesses in person and get the full picture - rather than the shortened version?
A great deal of time is spent on here discussing, debating and querying those statements - because that's all we have. Anyone who thinks SY would spend their time doing the same - when they could actually speak to the witnesses themselves if they needed clarification - or if they had questions to ask which may not already have been asked - is being unrealistic IMO.
So when did SY or the Portuguese in their 'current investigation' interview the mccanns and associates, who are key witnesses.
Other people have been interviewed or re-interviewed and their names have been plastered across the media.
In actuality, it is abundantly clear the mccanns and co., have not been re-questioned.
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you are in no position to lecture me on academic standards...your problem is that you do not understand what evidence is and how to assess it. It is quite obvious now...based on all the evidence...that the McCanns are not involved. You only had to look on amarals gofundme page to see how many people accepted amarals views on the dogs...if you cannot see how he has influenced people then that is your failing
How do you know I'm in no position to lecture you on academic standards? Is that another unsubstantiated claim?
It was you who claimed there is a causal link between Amaral's activities and the opinions of the Portuguese people in respect of the McCanns. It's also you who can't demonstrate the truth of the claim.
Whatever was said on the gofundme page wasn't said by Portuguese people, so not admissible in support of the assertion we're discussing.
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How do you know I'm in no position to lecture you on academic standards? Is that another unsubstantiated claim?
It was you who claimed there is a causal link between Amaral's activities and the opinions of the Portuguese people in respect of the McCanns. It's also you who can't demonstrate the truth of the claim.
Whatever was said on the gofundme page wasn't said by Portuguese people, so not admissible in support of the assertion we're discussing.
I can tell from your posts. Anyone who thinks that the twice translated non verbatim statements are accurate does not understand how to assess evidence
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How do you know I'm in no position to lecture you on academic standards? Is that another unsubstantiated claim?
It was you who claimed there is a causal link between Amaral's activities and the opinions of the Portuguese people in respect of the McCanns. It's also you who can't demonstrate the truth of the claim.
Whatever was said on the gofundme page wasn't said by Portuguese people, so not admissible in support of the assertion we're discussing.
I can see where your confusion is....do you think I am claiming amarals false claims are the sole reason for the view of the portuguese people...I haven't said that...but they certainly are part of the reason...
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No one knows if The McCanns have been requestioned. And we have no right to know.
Sorry. Off Topic. But I am getting rather fed up with assertions that we have no proof of.
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I can see where your confusion is....do you think I am claiming amarals false claims are the sole reason for the view of the portuguese people...I haven't said that...but they certainly are part of the reason...
I think the confusion is yours. 'Because of' means 'as a result of'. So most Portuguese think the McCanns are guilty as a result of what Amaral and the press wrote. That is a causal connection, as asserted in your post below;
isn't it true that most portuguese think the mccanns are guilty...because of what amaral and the press wrote
Now you are backtracking and saying they are part of the reason, which you also can't support. As I have said, the reasons are many and varied and can't be quantified.
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We are verging on visiting ad hominem land once again ... would it be at all possible to think of something to say relating to charity collectors who may or may not be bogus ...
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We are verging on visiting ad hominem land once again ... would it be at all possible to think of something to say relating to charity collectors who may or may not be bogus ...
I don't know why you posted this to me. All my recent posts were made in an attempt to demonstrate that an opinion (which was nothing to do with charity collectors) should not be posted as if it was fact.
As a result of my efforts I was accused of being unqualified, incapable of understanding and of being confused. I think hose posts were closer to 'verging on visiting ad hominem land' than my posts were.
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Apologies G ... my intention was to post a new comment ... not to post in your space.
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Apologies G ... my intention was to post a new comment ... not to post in your space.
Thank you, Brietta.
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No one knows if The McCanns have been requestioned. And we have no right to know.
Sorry. Off Topic. But I am getting rather fed up with assertions that we have no proof of.
Aren't we all.
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I think the confusion is yours. 'Because of' means 'as a result of'. So most Portuguese think the McCanns are guilty as a result of what Amaral and the press wrote. That is a causal connection, as asserted in your post below;
isn't it true that most portuguese think the mccanns are guilty...because of what amaral and the press wrote
Now you are backtracking and saying they are part of the reason, which you also can't support. As I have said, the reasons are many and varied and can't be quantified.
I am not backtracking at all...you are making a lot of false assumptions...amarals spoutings must have had a great effect on the the portuguese opinion...it is an obvious fact
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Aren't we all.
lets highlight them all ....
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I am not backtracking at all...you are making a lot of false assumptions...amarals spoutings must have had a great effect on the the portuguese opinion...it is an obvious fact
No.
More likely, the Portuguese people could see the mccanns for what they are.
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No.
More likely, the Portuguese people could see the mccanns for what they are.
and on what information have they reached that decision
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people make decisions based on facts...in general facts they read in papers and see on television...lies supplied by the PJ and amaral
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people make decisions based on facts...in general facts they read in papers and see on television...lies supplied by the PJ and amaral
..and the facts in the UK press @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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..and the facts in the UK press @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
#you have failed to supply any answer to the question...
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#you have failed to supply any answer to the question...
A brief reminder, yet again.
The cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown.
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A brief reminder, yet again.
The cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown.
Please stick to the topic of the thread ... "Charity collectors" data
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Please stick to the topic of the thread ... "Charity collectors" data
That applies to everyone, and NOT JUST ME.
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I am not backtracking at all...you are making a lot of false assumptions...amarals spoutings must have had a great effect on the the portuguese opinion...it is an obvious fact
As our posts are off topic I will not be responding. Suffice to say the false assumptions are clearly yours. I will say that the accusations in the UK media of PdL being full of smelly child abusers, drug-fuelled burglars, paedophile child abductors and bogus charity collectors all preying on poor British tourists won't have helped to encourage the Portuguese people to look kindly on either the McCanns or SY imo.
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As our posts are off topic I will not be responding. Suffice to say the false assumptions are clearly yours. I will say that the accusations in the UK media of PdL being full of smelly child abusers, drug-fuelled burglars, paedophile child abductors and bogus charity collectors all preying on poor British tourists won't have helped to encourage the Portuguese people to look kindly on either the McCanns or SY imo.
#you have responded...make your mind up
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As our posts are off topic I will not be responding. Suffice to say the false assumptions are clearly yours. I will say that the accusations in the UK media of PdL being full of smelly child abusers, drug-fuelled burglars, paedophile child abductors and bogus charity collectors all preying on poor British tourists won't have helped to encourage the Portuguese people to look kindly on either the McCanns or SY imo.
Thank You.
Now let's get back On Topic Now.
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The interview by journalist Alejandro Agostinelli, translated:
Source: http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/ (http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/)
The infamous disappearance of Madeleine McCann according to a criminal psychologist
By Alejandro Agostinelli (translated by John Spain)
"Madeleine McCann may have died on the day she was kidnapped", says Argentinian-Spanish investigator Heriberto Janosch González, about the case that terrified Europe .
The case of the missing English girl, almost 4 years old when she disappeared from the flat where her parents left her at a Portuguese resort, is a highly controversial mystery, rich with tales of false sightings and endless conspiracy theories. We speak to Janosch, who on his own initiative became a world expert in the case. One of the few to add useful information towards its eventual resolution.
On the 3rd of May 2007 the McCann family from Leicester UK were enjoying their vacations at Praia da Luz in the Portuguese Algarve. They had arrived Sat 28th on a direct flight to Faro airport. The family was comprised of Gerry and his wife Kate, their daughter Madeleine (4 years old on the 12th of May), and her two 2 year old twin siblings. They arrived along with 3 other families, Jane and Russel with their two daughters (1 and 3 years old), Matthew and Rachael with their one year old daughter; David and Fiona with their two daughters (2 years and 11 months old). Also with the group was Dianne, Fiona’s mother. At night the nine adults dined at the Tapas bar, less than a hundred meters away from the apartment block they resided at, while the eight children slept in their respective apartments. David and Fiona owned a wireless receiver to listen to babies, while the other three couples visited in intervals of 15 and 30 minutes to watch over their kids. At 22:00 of the 3rd of May, as Kate arrived in her apartment, she found the window to Madeleine and her brother’s room open, the blinds raised and no sign of Madeleine.
Heriberto Janosch Gonzaléz is a psychologist with a European Master in investigation and a postgraduate in Criminology. He has been researching the case since 2011 based on official published documentation and several trips to the location of events in the Algarve in Portugal.
- In your bilingual blog Espacio Exterior you analyze the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. What made you take an interest in the case?
Heriberto Janosch Gonzaléz (HJG) - Around 2011 I wanted to do a criminology postgraduate and a colleague told me: “Check out this case, the parents are involved”. I developed an interest and obtained all the official documents, thousands of pages. Just the main file from the Portuguese Judiciary police is 5500 pages. The event happened in Portugal, and the English girl, almost 4 years old, was on holiday with her parents.
- Yes, a lot has been said on the subject. So were the parents involved?
HGJ - Absolutely not. I realized this when I’d read the first 500 pages, it was physically impossible for them to be involved. It is true they made a serious mistake, they thought they were in a safe place and left the children alone, sleeping some tens of meters from the place they were dining at. Even though they checked every half hour it was not enough. Yes it was a mistake, but the crime was perpetrated by the kidnapper.
-Why did the Portuguese Judiciary police suspect the parents?
HJG - I don’t know. The key moment was in September, four months after the kidnapping, when they were charged. Until then they had only one suspect, an Englishman, Robert Murat, who lived near apartment 5A and turned out to be innocent. And since statistics say that in child disappearance cases usually a family member is involved... but every case is unique. You cannot apply a statistic drawn from a population level view of many independent crimes, to a specific case.
-This affair has been going on for almost nine years and has yet to be resolved. Did you reach any conclusion based on your research?
HJG - From all I’ve read and my trips on site at the Portuguese Algarve, it seemed important to know the physical and social environment where everything took place. So I went there four times, staying for about a week on each trip. Luz, Praia da Luz, is a village of white houses and sparse buildings, with a beach on the Atlantic, 4 star hotels and tourist apartments. Inhabited mostly by English and Portuguese and of course the tourists, who arrive from many countries, but mainly England, Holland and Germany.
-Knowledge of the environment is important...
HJG - Yes, also I was doing my criminology postgrad at that time and was very interested, and was influenced by Per-Olof Wikstron’s Theory of Situational action... it’s a criminal theory with two levels, individual and environmental, the criminal even takes place in the intersection of those two levels .
- Crime theory focuses on the individual or on society.
HJG - Not this one. It asserts that the crime takes place in the intersection. Individuals possess their own morality and self control. On the other hand the environment also has control factors, guards, cameras, etc. And also an “environmental morality”. If the individual’s morality makes them prone to crime and lacking in self control, and the environment lacks control factors, and the shared morality tolerates crime, the criminal event takes place.
-In this case, are there suspects?
HJG - With the information I have, I have found two suspects. There is surely new information in the hands of the Procuradoria-Geral da República and the Portuguese Judiciary police and Scotland Yard, who have a special group investigating this kidnapping, “Operation Grange”, which has invested almost 12 million pounds Sterling on the case. But the analysis of the information I have led me to two individuals
- How was that analysis?
HJG - As I mentioned earlier, getting to know the place I realized that the “environmental morality” tolerated theft in the apartments and small swindles like asking money for non existent charitable institutions. In the first case, tourist complexes, be they hotels or resorts prefer guests be compensated by insurance to alerting the police and so damage the area’s image. In the second case, men asking for donations for a nonexistent orphanage where known to operate in the area.
-But this was a child’s kidnapping, not a theft...
HJG - That’s where I’m going, I view the events not as a kidnapping but as a theft that escalated. Why? The thief did not anticipate meeting someone at apartment 5A, Madeleine awoke and confronted him. Perhaps she started to scream when she realized he was not a relative and the frightened criminal took her. Seventeen days before the kidnapping there was a theft at apartment 5L, and a week earlier an attempt in Mrs. Fenn’s 5G, both in the same apartment block. In both cases, as in Madeleine’s kidnapping, a window was opened from outside.
- How did the suspects names emerge?
HJG - Reading and rereading I arrived at one person, at that time employed by the Ocean Club, the tourist resort where Madeleine stayed. Jose Carlos Fernandes da Silva, 30 years old, who transported tourists from reception to the apartments in a minibus. The apartments could be hundreds of meters away from reception. José Carlos lived 200 meters away from Madeleine’s apartment, and a similar distance from the place where a family saw a man carrying a blond girl like Madeleine in his arms, at around 22:05 hours approximately.
- There must be something else, surely?
HJG- Of course. On the day of the kidnapping Jose Carlos did not go to work, but was in the area. He made three phone calls to Ricardo Rodrigues, the other suspect I located, at 17:26, 21:38 and 21:51. As well as a SMS message at 21:25. I should point out that, according to the testimonies I have read, I believe Madeleine was abducted around 21:50. But getting back to José Carlos, at 23:00 he was “Taking some fresh air” in a balcony of his building, despite the night being quite chilly. And it is right in that street, by that building, that one person, a witness known to Scotland Yard noticed two men arguing, when they noticed they were observed they departed speaking in whispers. But the definitive fact to consider José Carlos a suspect was found in the Portuguese file... he had a criminal record for theft!
- And the other suspect, Ricardo?
HJG - Ricardo was 16 years old around that time. He was a kid who did not like to study, whose main aspiration was to have a fast car that could reach 200km/hr along the Algarve roads. Also, I have indications that on the day of the abduction at 16:00 hours he was involved in collecting money for a non existent orphanage, at a house located less than 100 meters from Madeleine’s apartment, along with another man who may have been José Carlos, where he obtained 10 Euro. I of course have no hard evidence, all my theory is based on circumstantial evidence from the judicial file and my observations on site.
-These people must have been investigated.
HJG - I thought the same when I considered this situation, in June 2013, and so I informed Scotland Yard and the Portuguese authorities. More than a year later, in July 2014, Scotland Yard managed to have them interrogated as suspects in Faro, Portugal. The judicial term there is “arguidos”. They also interrogated one Paulo Ribeiro, described as a mentally ill drug addict, who was about 50 years old around that time, and who was in contact with Ricardo on the previous day.
- A very peculiar trio...
HJG - Indeed.
- José Carlos and Ricardo’s interview was on July 2014. Almost two years have passed, what do we know?
HJG - There is a clampdown. At this time there are two active investigations, English and Portuguese. But leadership is maintained by the Portuguese Procaduria Geral da República. It was revealed that the English sent a letter rogatory to continue the interrogation of José Carlos, Ricardo and Paulo, but the Portuguese saw no justification to cite them again.
- What do you think happened to Madeleine? Might she be alive?
HJG - I have no proof of that, or even circumstantial evidence. There are no “probabilities” here, she is either 100% alive or 100% dead. But I don’t dismiss the idea that Madeleine McCann may have died on the day she was kidnapped, strangled, for example, by the thief turned kidnapper, and that her body was well hidden near the coast of the village, between the beach known as A Prainha and the water treatment plant at Mata Porcas. Or perhaps thrown into the sea in that same area. I hope that when they capture the criminal, whoever it may be, we will find out what happened with little Madeleine.
- Recently another investigator reported that Madeleine was in Paraguay. Is this possible?
HJG - There have been thousands of sightings of Madeleine all over the world. None has the slightest shred of credibility. I believe Madeleine, dead or alive, is still in Portugal, and not far from Praia de Luz.
- It’s a very media heavy case. Many people are interested on the Internet, from various perspectives. What do you think about this online war over different theories?
HJG - Yes, there are factions “pro” and “con”. The “con” think the parents, at the very least, found her dead after falling off a sofa when they left her alone at the apartment. And then they simulated a kidnapping to hide the body... or worse things, all ridiculous. They are very fanatical. The “pro” group are also quite fanatical about defending the parents, and will not even admit they made a mistake leaving her alone sleeping with her two year old siblings. A mistake they will carry their whole lives. But the only criminal here, I never tire of repeating it, is whoever abducted her.
IMAGE:
Notes for a possible chronology: 16:00 two men (Ricardo and José Carlos?) request donations for a nonexistent orphanage (“1” on the google map image). 17:26 Cell phone call between Jose Carlos and Ricardo. 21:05 Gerry, Madeleine’s father, leaves her sleeping with her 2 year old brothers in Apartment 5A (“2”) to continue dining with his wife and their group of friends at the Tapas Bar (“3”) 21:25 SMS message between José Carlos and Ricardo’s cellphones. 21:35. Matthew Oldfield, who was dining with Madeleine’s parents goes by apartment 5A and sees nothing unusual. 21:38 Cell phone call between José Carlos and Ricardo. 21:50 Approximate hour of Madeleine’s abduction? 21:51 José Carlos makes a one minute long phone call on his mobile, to Ricardo. 22:00 Kate, Madeleine’s mother, arrives at apartment 5A to check on the kids. The window of the room is open and the blinds are raised, Madeleine is gone. 22:05 Members of the Smith family see a man carrying a girl matching Madeleine’s description in his arms. The girl is wearing pajamas and is barefoot, despite the cold night (“4”) 23:00 José Carlos “gets some air” on the balcony of the building where he lives (“5”). In the street, almost on the same spot and time a person sees two men talking, who leave whispering when they notice they are being observed.
-
The interview by journalist Alejandro Agostinelli, translated:
Source: http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/ (http://factorelblog.com/2016/03/31/caso-madeleine-1/)
The infamous disappearance of Madeleine McCann according to a criminal psychologist
By Alejandro Agostinelli (translated by John Spain)
"Madeleine McCann may have died on the day she was kidnapped", says Argentinian-Spanish investigator Heriberto Janosch González, about the case that terrified Europe .
The case of the missing English girl, almost 4 years old when she disappeared from the flat where her parents left her at a Portuguese resort, is a highly controversial mystery, rich with tales of false sightings and endless conspiracy theories. We speak to Janosch, who on his own initiative became a world expert in the case. One of the few to add useful information towards its eventual resolution.
On the 3rd of May 2007 the McCann family from Leicester UK were enjoying their vacations at Praia da Luz in the Portuguese Algarve. They had arrived Sat 28th on a direct flight to Faro airport. The family was comprised of Gerry and his wife Kate, their daughter Madeleine (4 years old on the 12th of May), and her two 2 year old twin siblings. They arrived along with 3 other families, Jane and Russel with their two daughters (1 and 3 years old), Matthew and Rachael with their one year old daughter; David and Fiona with their two daughters (2 years and 11 months old). Also with the group was Dianne, Fiona’s mother. At night the nine adults dined at the Tapas bar, less than a hundred meters away from the apartment block they resided at, while the eight children slept in their respective apartments. David and Fiona owned a wireless receiver to listen to babies, while the other three couples visited in intervals of 15 and 30 minutes to watch over their kids. At 22:00 of the 3rd of May, as Kate arrived in her apartment, she found the window to Madeleine and her brother’s room open, the blinds raised and no sign of Madeleine.
Heriberto Janosch Gonzaléz is a psychologist with a European Master in investigation and a postgraduate in Criminology. He has been researching the case since 2011 based on official published documentation and several trips to the location of events in the Algarve in Portugal.
- In your bilingual blog Espacio Exterior you analyze the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. What made you take an interest in the case?
Heriberto Janosch Gonzaléz (HJG) - Around 2011 I wanted to do a criminology postgraduate and a colleague told me: “Check out this case, the parents are involved”. I developed an interest and obtained all the official documents, thousands of pages. Just the main file from the Portuguese Judiciary police is 5500 pages. The event happened in Portugal, and the English girl, almost 4 years old, was on holiday with her parents.
- Yes, a lot has been said on the subject. So were the parents involved?
HGJ - Absolutely not. I realized this when I’d read the first 500 pages, it was physically impossible for them to be involved. It is true they made a serious mistake, they thought they were in a safe place and left the children alone, sleeping some tens of meters from the place they were dining at. Even though they checked every half hour it was not enough. Yes it was a mistake, but the crime was perpetrated by the kidnapper.
-Why did the Portuguese Judiciary police suspect the parents?
HJG - I don’t know. The key moment was in September, four months after the kidnapping, when they were charged. Until then they had only one suspect, an Englishman, Robert Murat, who lived near apartment 5A and turned out to be innocent. And since statistics say that in child disappearance cases usually a family member is involved... but every case is unique. You cannot apply a statistic drawn from a population level view of many independent crimes, to a specific case.
-This affair has been going on for almost nine years and has yet to be resolved. Did you reach any conclusion based on your research?
HJG - From all I’ve read and my trips on site at the Portuguese Algarve, it seemed important to know the physical and social environment where everything took place. So I went there four times, staying for about a week on each trip. Luz, Praia da Luz, is a village of white houses and sparse buildings, with a beach on the Atlantic, 4 star hotels and tourist apartments. Inhabited mostly by English and Portuguese and of course the tourists, who arrive from many countries, but mainly England, Holland and Germany.
-Knowledge of the environment is important...
HJG - Yes, also I was doing my criminology postgrad at that time and was very interested, and was influenced by Per-Olof Wikstron’s Theory of Situational action... it’s a criminal theory with two levels, individual and environmental, the criminal even takes place in the intersection of those two levels .
- Crime theory focuses on the individual or on society.
HJG - Not this one. It asserts that the crime takes place in the intersection. Individuals possess their own morality and self control. On the other hand the environment also has control factors, guards, cameras, etc. And also an “environmental morality”. If the individual’s morality makes them prone to crime and lacking in self control, and the environment lacks control factors, and the shared morality tolerates crime, the criminal event takes place.
-In this case, are there suspects?
HJG - With the information I have, I have found two suspects. There is surely new information in the hands of the Procuradoria-Geral da República and the Portuguese Judiciary police and Scotland Yard, who have a special group investigating this kidnapping, “Operation Grange”, which has invested almost 12 million pounds Sterling on the case. But the analysis of the information I have led me to two individuals
- How was that analysis?
HJG - As I mentioned earlier, getting to know the place I realized that the “environmental morality” tolerated theft in the apartments and small swindles like asking money for non existent charitable institutions. In the first case, tourist complexes, be they hotels or resorts prefer guests be compensated by insurance to alerting the police and so damage the area’s image. In the second case, men asking for donations for a nonexistent orphanage where known to operate in the area.
-But this was a child’s kidnapping, not a theft...
HJG - That’s where I’m going, I view the events not as a kidnapping but as a theft that escalated. Why? The thief did not anticipate meeting someone at apartment 5A, Madeleine awoke and confronted him. Perhaps she started to scream when she realized he was not a relative and the frightened criminal took her. Seventeen days before the kidnapping there was a theft at apartment 5L, and a week earlier an attempt in Mrs. Fenn’s 5G, both in the same apartment block. In both cases, as in Madeleine’s kidnapping, a window was opened from outside.
- How did the suspects names emerge?
HJG - Reading and rereading I arrived at one person, at that time employed by the Ocean Club, the tourist resort where Madeleine stayed. Jose Carlos Fernandes da Silva, 30 years old, who transported tourists from reception to the apartments in a minibus. The apartments could be hundreds of meters away from reception. José Carlos lived 200 meters away from Madeleine’s apartment, and a similar distance from the place where a family saw a man carrying a blond girl like Madeleine in his arms, at around 22:05 hours approximately.
- There must be something else, surely?
HJG- Of course. On the day of the kidnapping Jose Carlos did not go to work, but was in the area. He made three phone calls to Ricardo Rodrigues, the other suspect I located, at 17:26, 21:38 and 21:51. As well as a SMS message at 21:25. I should point out that, according to the testimonies I have read, I believe Madeleine was abducted around 21:50. But getting back to José Carlos, at 23:00 he was “Taking some fresh air” in a balcony of his building, despite the night being quite chilly. And it is right in that street, by that building, that one person, a witness known to Scotland Yard noticed two men arguing, when they noticed they were observed they departed speaking in whispers. But the definitive fact to consider José Carlos a suspect was found in the Portuguese file... he had a criminal record for theft!
- And the other suspect, Ricardo?
HJG - Ricardo was 16 years old around that time. He was a kid who did not like to study, whose main aspiration was to have a fast car that could reach 200km/hr along the Algarve roads. Also, I have indications that on the day of the abduction at 16:00 hours he was involved in collecting money for a non existent orphanage, at a house located less than 100 meters from Madeleine’s apartment, along with another man who may have been José Carlos, where he obtained 10 Euro. I of course have no hard evidence, all my theory is based on circumstantial evidence from the judicial file and my observations on site.
-These people must have been investigated.
HJG - I thought the same when I considered this situation, in June 2013, and so I informed Scotland Yard and the Portuguese authorities. More than a year later, in July 2014, Scotland Yard managed to have them interrogated as suspects in Faro, Portugal. The judicial term there is “arguidos”. They also interrogated one Paulo Ribeiro, described as a mentally ill drug addict, who was about 50 years old around that time, and who was in contact with Ricardo on the previous day.
- A very peculiar trio...
HJG - Indeed.
- José Carlos and Ricardo’s interview was on July 2014. Almost two years have passed, what do we know?
HJG - There is a clampdown. At this time there are two active investigations, English and Portuguese. But leadership is maintained by the Portuguese Procaduria Geral da República. It was revealed that the English sent a letter rogatory to continue the interrogation of José Carlos, Ricardo and Paulo, but the Portuguese saw no justification to cite them again.
- What do you think happened to Madeleine? Might she be alive?
HJG - I have no proof of that, or even circumstantial evidence. There are no “probabilities” here, she is either 100% alive or 100% dead. But I don’t dismiss the idea that Madeleine McCann may have died on the day she was kidnapped, strangled, for example, by the thief turned kidnapper, and that her body was well hidden near the coast of the village, between the beach known as A Prainha and the water treatment plant at Mata Porcas. Or perhaps thrown into the sea in that same area. I hope that when they capture the criminal, whoever it may be, we will find out what happened with little Madeleine.
- Recently another investigator reported that Madeleine was in Paraguay. Is this possible?
HJG - There have been thousands of sightings of Madeleine all over the world. None has the slightest shred of credibility. I believe Madeleine, dead or alive, is still in Portugal, and not far from Praia de Luz.
- It’s a very media heavy case. Many people are interested on the Internet, from various perspectives. What do you think about this online war over different theories?
HJG - Yes, there are factions “pro” and “con”. The “con” think the parents, at the very least, found her dead after falling off a sofa when they left her alone at the apartment. And then they simulated a kidnapping to hide the body... or worse things, all ridiculous. They are very fanatical. The “pro” group are also quite fanatical about defending the parents, and will not even admit they made a mistake leaving her alone sleeping with her two year old siblings. A mistake they will carry their whole lives. But the only criminal here, I never tire of repeating it, is whoever abducted her.
IMAGE:
Notes for a possible chronology: 16:00 two men (Ricardo and José Carlos?) request donations for a nonexistent orphanage (“1” on the google map image). 17:26 Cell phone call between Jose Carlos and Ricardo. 21:05 Gerry, Madeleine’s father, leaves her sleeping with her 2 year old brothers in Apartment 5A (“2”) to continue dining with his wife and their group of friends at the Tapas Bar (“3”) 21:25 SMS message between José Carlos and Ricardo’s cellphones. 21:35. Matthew Oldfield, who was dining with Madeleine’s parents goes by apartment 5A and sees nothing unusual. 21:38 Cell phone call between José Carlos and Ricardo. 21:50 Approximate hour of Madeleine’s abduction? 21:51 José Carlos makes a one minute long phone call on his mobile, to Ricardo. 22:00 Kate, Madeleine’s mother, arrives at apartment 5A to check on the kids. The window of the room is open and the blinds are raised, Madeleine is gone. 22:05 Members of the Smith family see a man carrying a girl matching Madeleine’s description in his arms. The girl is wearing pajamas and is barefoot, despite the cold night (“4”) 23:00 José Carlos “gets some air” on the balcony of the building where he lives (“5”). In the street, almost on the same spot and time a person sees two men talking, who leave whispering when they notice they are being observed.
I ask again. Would you care to elaborate on the bolded text?
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I ask again. Would you care to elaborate on the bolded text?
It was physically impossible for them to have been involved. Anyone with a modicum of logic can see that.
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It was physically impossible for them to have been involved. Anyone with a modicum of logic can see that.
I can prove they could be from actual evidence. Physically impossible is a ridiculous statement to make when there is an eye witness who named one with the child they all believe was Madeleine.
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I can prove they could be from actual evidence. Physically impossible is a ridiculous statement to make when there is an eye witness who named one with the child they all believe was Madeleine.
So what happened? Who got arrested?
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So what happened? Who got arrested?
You don't arrest anyone until you get the proof that is required i.e. physical evidence unless you want to risk losing a circumstantial evidence case which I doubt after spending so much money.
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You don't arrest anyone until you get the proof that is required i.e. physical evidence unless you want to risk losing a circumstantial evidence case which I doubt after spending so much money.
Not quite true. In this country people regularly get arrested on mere suspicion of something and are then released without charge
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Not quite true. In this country people regularly get arrested on mere suspicion of something and are then released without charge
Heaps of people arrested are (later) released without charge ...
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It was physically impossible for them to have been involved. Anyone with a modicum of logic can see that.
According to Heriberto his conclusion was reached by conducting a system analysis of the timeline. I have asked a few times now for more information about that but he's not forthcoming so far.
As yu agree with him perhaps you could explain your logical analysis to me?
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Not quite true. In this country people regularly get arrested on mere suspicion of something and are then released without charge
Tony Blair once was hell bent on introducing a law where someone could be arrested if they "looked as though they were going to commit an offence". &%+((£
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Going Off Topic again. Please stop now.
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Not quite true. In this country people regularly get arrested on mere suspicion of something and are then released without charge
True Jassi but not Columbo @)(++(*
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Tony Blair once was hell bent on introducing a law where someone could be arrested if they "looked as though they were going to commit an offence". &%+((£
Chilcots report due any day..at last, hopefully it will not exonerate him
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Chilcots report due any day..at last, hopefully it will not exonerate him
I cannot see it as being anything other than yet another whitewash.
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Going Off Topic again. Please stop now.
Yes however TB would be on-topic on a phone records thread
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There must be something else, surely?
HJG- Of course. On the day of the kidnapping Jose Carlos did not go to work, but was in the area. He made three phone calls to Ricardo Rodrigues, the other suspect I located, at 17:26, 21:38 and 21:51. As well as a SMS message at 21:25. I should point out that, according to the testimonies I have read, I believe Madeleine was abducted around 21:50. But getting back to José Carlos, at 23:00 he was “Taking some fresh air” in a balcony of his building, despite the night being quite chilly. And it is right in that street, by that building, that one person, a witness known to Scotland Yard noticed two men arguing, when they noticed they were observed they departed speaking in whispers. But the definitive fact to consider José Carlos a suspect was found in the Portuguese file... he had a criminal record for theft!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose wasn't working that night because Bernardino was.
Raj Balu and Neil Berry were also out on their balcony and the Moyes above 5A. Both heard and saw nothing.
What about 8:30 when they left the apartment? 9pm first check? Did they forget to contact each other? Where was he watching the table from?
A criminal record for theft? aka no glove man. What evidence have to got of him entering via the window to attempt to steal valuables?
Oh **** there's deep sleeping children let's just steal one instead.
"Following this line of reasoning it was determined that two witnesses ' Bernardino (pag. 372) and Ecaterina (pag 596) ' activated one of the antennas, beyond the time that they stated having left that area."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_11_VOLUMES.htm
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There must be something else, surely?
HJG- Of course. On the day of the kidnapping Jose Carlos did not go to work, but was in the area. He made three phone calls to Ricardo Rodrigues, the other suspect I located, at 17:26, 21:38 and 21:51. As well as a SMS message at 21:25. I should point out that, according to the testimonies I have read, I believe Madeleine was abducted around 21:50. But getting back to José Carlos, at 23:00 he was “Taking some fresh air” in a balcony of his building, despite the night being quite chilly. And it is right in that street, by that building, that one person, a witness known to Scotland Yard noticed two men arguing, when they noticed they were observed they departed speaking in whispers. But the definitive fact to consider José Carlos a suspect was found in the Portuguese file... he had a criminal record for theft!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose wasn't working that night because Bernardino was.
Raj Balu and Neil Berry were also out on their balcony and the Moyes above 5A. Both heard and saw nothing.What about 8:30 when they left the apartment? 9pm first check? Did they forget to contact each other? Where was he watching the table from?
A criminal record for theft? aka no glove man. What evidence have to got of him entering via the window to attempt to steal valuables?
Oh **** there's deep sleeping children let's just steal one instead.
"Following this line of reasoning it was determined that two witnesses ' Bernardino (pag. 372) and Ecaterina (pag 596) ' activated one of the antennas, beyond the time that they stated having left that area."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_11_VOLUMES.htm
Raj Balu and Neil Berry were also out on their balcony and the Moyes above 5A. Both heard and saw nothing.
Sheer Affrontary to say that.
You know, as we all know, that for some mysterious reason the statements of Raj Balu and Neil Berry have vanished. Caroline Carpenters has vanished too.
There were hundreds of Statements, all carefully kept, yet the three that could verify the time of the search ... and the fact that Gerry was searching, with times, and indicated his innocence ... have ALL THREE VANISHED.
To me it seems VERY SINISTER that the three people whose testomony could clear Gerry from all this awful speculation HAVE VANISHED. All the others kept, but those three vanished
Of course, had these three remained for all to read along with the hundreds of others, they would likely have blown Amarals theory .... and YOUR OWN theory, PFinder
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You can retract your accusation that you just made to me in error Sadie. This is evidence from the PJ files.
"We ordered our food and had a drink whilst waiting for the food to arrive. We returned around 20:15-20:30.
We returned (to) the Berry apartment and all of us ate on the veranda."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
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Raj Balu and Neil Berry were also out on their balcony and the Moyes above 5A. Both heard and saw nothing.
Sheer Affrontary to say that.
You know, as we all know, that for some mysterious reason the statements of Raj Balu and Neil Berry have vanished. Caroline Carpenters has vanished too.
There were hundreds of Statements, all carefully kept, yet the three that could verify the time of the search ... and the fact that Gerry was searching, with times, and indicated his innocence ... have ALL THREE VANISHED.
To me it seems VERY SINISTER that the three people whose testomony could clear Gerry from all this awful speculation HAVE VANISHED. All the others kept, but those three vanished
Of course, had these three remained for all to read along with the hundreds of others, they would likely have blown Amarals theory .... and YOUR OWN theory, PFinder
All three statements (or more) were made to the British police. The British asked the PJ to keep certain statements secret for various reasons. Therefore it's possible that those statements were not released due to a request by the UK.
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You can retract your accusation that you just made to me in error Sadie. This is evidence from the PJ files.
"We ordered our food and had a drink whilst waiting for the food to arrive. We returned around 20:15-20:30.
We returned (to) the Berry apartment and all of us ate on the veranda."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
As you obviously didn't bother to read it properly, I have added an underline to the part that you said and that was contentious. Not true from any statements. Made up like your signature.
Raj Balu and Neil Berry were also out on their balcony and the Moyes above 5A. Both heard and saw nothing. [/size]
Disinformation and sheer Affrontary for you to say that.
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As you obviously didn't bother to read it properly, I have added an underline to the part that you said and that was contentious. Not true from any statements. Made up like your signature.
Raj Balu and Neil Berry were also out on their balcony and the Moyes above 5A. Both heard and saw nothing. [/size]
Disinformation and sheer Affrontary for you to say that.
After the alarm was raised they first heard noises.
"After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
It suggests the conversation they overheard is being kept secret from us.
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Disinformation and sheer Affrontary for you to say that.
Porque?
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Porque?
No, but I had bacon eggs, and chips. Very nice it was too, thank you.
*&*%£
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Burglaries. And maybe no more clues.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/madeleine-mccann-detective-we-still-hope-to-find-her-alive-a3227561.html
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Thanks Heri. That link doesn't work (it's got a mailto: prefix) but this one does
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/madeleine-mccann-detective-we-still-hope-to-find-her-alive-a3227561.html
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I cannot see it as being anything other than yet another whitewash.
me neither, but you never know, to many angry people out there waiting for answers, que serra
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Burglaries. And maybe no more clues.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/madeleine-mccann-detective-we-still-hope-to-find-her-alive-a3227561.html
I dont thnk you can deduce from that article that the only clues to what may have happened all they have are "burglaries" ...12m for that? Come on!! Please remember UK police tell nothing or as little as possible. And what they do say is not always the whole truth. Bit like secrecy laws in portugal!
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.
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Please give me a link to the news about rogatory letter of July 2015.
Thanks, Heri.
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July 2015 letter contents from Nicola Wall were kept secret but new forensics IMO.
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@Heri you need to redo that image upload a different way
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It is about statements of two high SY chiefs. See my last post in my blog, updated today.
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http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511311/Three-key-burglar-suspects-questioned-Madeleine-McCann-police-theory-attack-lead-Portugal (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511311/Three-key-burglar-suspects-questioned-Madeleine-McCann-police-theory-attack-lead-Portugal)
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http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511311/Three-key-burglar-suspects-questioned-Madeleine-McCann-police-theory-attack-lead-Portugal (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511311/Three-key-burglar-suspects-questioned-Madeleine-McCann-police-theory-attack-lead-Portugal)
Ah that old news.
It's the silly season again.
Not forgetting the one in the sun today either.
It would appear that members of the UK press and the mccann PR spin machine are still trying to hoodwink the public.
Since when did a burglary result in no goods being taken, no evidence of a break in (even Mitchell admitted that), etc.
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http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511311/Three-key-burglar-suspects-questioned-Madeleine-McCann-police-theory-attack-lead-Portugal (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511311/Three-key-burglar-suspects-questioned-Madeleine-McCann-police-theory-attack-lead-Portugal)
That star article contains no new information. iI's an old article that's been rewritten to make it sound like something new. It is not. Where in it is a single new quote from police? There is none. The "source" is CM, who is not a policeman.
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That star article contains no new information. iI's an old article that's been rewritten to make it sound like something new. It is not. Where in it is a single new quote from police? There is none. The "source" is CM, who is not a policeman.
Yes, it's an old story repackaged.
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http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/234000/Resort-505234.jpg
This photo of blocks 4 and 5 in the Star article is taken from the Pedras Brancas building.
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Yes, it's an old story repackaged.
Yes, and the "source" is clearly worried by what the real lead being followed now by the Met may be, as revealed by the wording "despite Met Commissioner Sir Bernard"
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Yes, and the "source" is clearly worried by what the real lead being followed now by the Met may be, as revealed by the wording "despite Met Commissioner Sir Bernard"
These headlines beggar belief.